WEBVTT - Ep. 177: Poison vs. Choppers 0:00:08.960 --> 0:00:13.320 This is Me Eater podcast coming in you shirtless, severely 0:00:13.440 --> 0:00:18.599 bug bitten in my case underwear listening podcast. You Can't 0:00:18.600 --> 0:00:22.680 Predict Anything presented by on X Hunt creators are the 0:00:22.680 --> 0:00:26.479 most comprehensive digital mapping system for hunters. Download the Hunt 0:00:26.520 --> 0:00:29.680 app from the iTunes or Google play store. Nor where 0:00:29.680 --> 0:00:35.560 you stand with on x. Okay, we're joined here today 0:00:35.640 --> 0:00:39.520 by special guest Carter Smith, Executive director of Texans Park 0:00:39.720 --> 0:00:42.760 Texas Parks and Wildlife Department. Yeah. Great to be with 0:00:42.840 --> 0:00:46.239 you all. Uh, I'm gonna I'm gonna like ask ask 0:00:46.280 --> 0:00:48.360 them easy questions to start. The first question I have 0:00:48.440 --> 0:00:57.040 is not easy. You're aware of how um, how people 0:00:57.120 --> 0:01:02.280 who don't live in Texas are often baffled by Texas. 0:01:03.960 --> 0:01:10.440 The the the number of um animals and just it's 0:01:10.520 --> 0:01:12.800 bewildering to be. Yeah, the scale, the diversity. You had 0:01:12.800 --> 0:01:15.119 a bit of a mythology around all that in there. Yeah. Yeah, 0:01:15.520 --> 0:01:17.240 And you can be driving down the road and there's 0:01:17.280 --> 0:01:20.920 a zebra standing there. It's just we hear. It's that's 0:01:20.920 --> 0:01:22.480 why it's gonna be down here, because we hear from 0:01:22.560 --> 0:01:25.720 so many people, you know, people right in and we 0:01:25.800 --> 0:01:29.440 here from so many people who have they speak about 0:01:30.440 --> 0:01:32.880 like people from the Northern Tier States whatever speak about 0:01:32.880 --> 0:01:37.760 Texas as though they're asking about another country. Yeah. Yeah, 0:01:37.840 --> 0:01:39.760 and so it's good to come down and talk to 0:01:41.280 --> 0:01:44.440 the official I don't like to go by the official 0:01:44.480 --> 0:01:47.400 voice of Texas. Yeah, I'm not quite that formal formal stage. 0:01:47.440 --> 0:01:49.360 So yeah, yeah, well I'm gonna ask you to cut 0:01:49.360 --> 0:01:54.000 that immediately. You're you're from here, right, I am, Yeah, 0:01:54.080 --> 0:01:55.800 grew up here. It's got up one foot in the shitty, 0:01:55.840 --> 0:01:59.320 one foot in the country called Allston home our family 0:01:59.800 --> 0:02:02.440 right and farmed in central and South Texas, and and 0:02:02.480 --> 0:02:05.120 so it was kind of the best of both worlds. 0:02:05.200 --> 0:02:07.920 Ran a cattle ranch. We did, yeah, calfe operation and 0:02:07.920 --> 0:02:13.200 and um my really uncle took full responsibility for that 0:02:13.360 --> 0:02:16.520 when we played a part is as well. Um it 0:02:16.600 --> 0:02:18.880 was kind of interesting growing up to see my cousins 0:02:18.880 --> 0:02:22.280 really gravitate more to the bag side. You know. I 0:02:22.320 --> 0:02:24.680 was always a lot more interested in you know, trapping 0:02:24.680 --> 0:02:27.320 hogs and you know, catching bull frogs and that kind 0:02:27.320 --> 0:02:31.600 of thing. So so let's just support your cafe operation. No, no, 0:02:31.760 --> 0:02:34.680 that was a separate operation. And so there was there 0:02:34.760 --> 0:02:38.359 was just a dry land row crop operation, Sorghum and 0:02:38.440 --> 0:02:41.799 corn um Lee sat out to a neighbor that have 0:02:41.880 --> 0:02:44.960 been there forever um and so and then we had 0:02:44.960 --> 0:02:47.079 a little cattle operation off on that off to the 0:02:47.120 --> 0:02:50.000 side on that place as well. And uh and so 0:02:50.120 --> 0:02:52.440 you know, that's really where I discovered the outdoors growing up. 0:02:52.440 --> 0:02:54.800 All my my friends love to punt and fish and 0:02:54.840 --> 0:02:57.800 be outside. That was pretty pretty natural, you know. Thankfully 0:02:57.800 --> 0:02:59.760 I had this blessed childhood where I had places to 0:02:59.800 --> 0:03:03.280 go and could also take take friends. But um, it 0:03:03.360 --> 0:03:06.400 was a pretty easy assimilation into the outdoors. Not so 0:03:06.480 --> 0:03:10.120 much for kids today. Did you guys on your guys properties, 0:03:10.200 --> 0:03:15.680 you guys involved in the oil and gas to impression tests. Yeah, yeah, well, 0:03:15.720 --> 0:03:17.639 and you know, obviously you know, you look right now 0:03:17.680 --> 0:03:19.760 what's going on in the Permian um and it has 0:03:19.840 --> 0:03:25.360 dramatically changed the energy landscape. Just a huge voluminous production 0:03:26.320 --> 0:03:28.480 of oil and gas out in out in West Texas. 0:03:28.560 --> 0:03:33.360 You know all of those notions of energy independence, um. 0:03:33.440 --> 0:03:35.000 And you know the fact that you have now the 0:03:35.120 --> 0:03:38.360 US as an exporter of oil and gas. You know, 0:03:38.440 --> 0:03:40.880 the the amount of production that's coming out of West Texas, 0:03:40.960 --> 0:03:44.480 it's just astronomical, um. But yeah, the the ranch of 0:03:44.560 --> 0:03:47.720 my father grew up on UM and that where I 0:03:47.720 --> 0:03:50.280 spent a good part of my childhood. You know, there 0:03:50.320 --> 0:03:53.520 was legacy production that um you know went back to 0:03:53.560 --> 0:03:56.120 the forties and fifties and some that was you know, 0:03:56.200 --> 0:03:59.160 during during our lifetime, and UM, you know it was 0:03:59.160 --> 0:04:02.080 always the trick is to balance that with the other 0:04:02.120 --> 0:04:04.800 things going on at the ranch, um and uh, make 0:04:04.840 --> 0:04:08.160 sure that there was a a coexistence. But I certainly 0:04:08.200 --> 0:04:10.160 don't want to give the listeners an impression that all 0:04:10.160 --> 0:04:13.520 of Texas is covered with pump jack's. You know, it's 0:04:13.520 --> 0:04:16.520 not their hot spots where oil and gas is produced. 0:04:16.600 --> 0:04:20.359 It's it's it's a critical resource for the stake generates 0:04:20.440 --> 0:04:24.080 lots of revenues, you might imagine lots of lots of jobs. 0:04:24.160 --> 0:04:27.120 But UM, it's not as if that's an activity that 0:04:27.200 --> 0:04:30.279 blankets the entire state. It's localized obviously, where the oil 0:04:30.279 --> 0:04:32.400 and gas is and where it's viable to get out 0:04:32.400 --> 0:04:34.720 of the get out of the earth. Did you when 0:04:34.960 --> 0:04:36.560 you were young, did you know you're gonna go into 0:04:36.560 --> 0:04:41.560 wild I didn't. Um, you know it's I really I 0:04:41.600 --> 0:04:45.239 didn't have a good sense that, um, you could pursue 0:04:45.320 --> 0:04:48.719 that is a vocation later on, Yeah, you know, it's funny. 0:04:48.720 --> 0:04:50.039 When we were kids, like some man of the kids, 0:04:50.160 --> 0:04:51.720 like the Hunting Fish, the only thing you could think 0:04:51.760 --> 0:04:54.120 of is everyone would say that they're gonna be a 0:04:54.120 --> 0:04:56.599 game Yeah right. It's like, I don't know, it seems 0:04:56.600 --> 0:05:00.040 like is aware of yeah well, and you know, to 0:05:00.120 --> 0:05:02.520 be fair, I had that too growing up. UM. There 0:05:02.560 --> 0:05:04.280 was a game boarding in Zalez County and one of 0:05:04.320 --> 0:05:06.880 Williamson County that were you know, at the palace and 0:05:06.880 --> 0:05:10.000 the farming ranch all the all the time. They're wonderful mentors, 0:05:10.000 --> 0:05:13.240 wonderful role models. But you know, Steve, really i'd say 0:05:13.240 --> 0:05:16.480 it was college UM, and I was sort of mandering 0:05:16.480 --> 0:05:19.280 my way through trying to figure out what I wanted 0:05:19.320 --> 0:05:20.760 to do. No one full well, I didn't want to 0:05:20.760 --> 0:05:23.960 go to law school UM. And I sat down one 0:05:23.960 --> 0:05:26.280 evening with a Parks and Wildlife game boarden and a 0:05:26.320 --> 0:05:28.680 Parks and Wildlife wildlife biologist and that was really the 0:05:28.720 --> 0:05:31.800 epiphany that you know, I could pursue that is a 0:05:32.120 --> 0:05:35.440 is a vocation. And I wouldn't talk to a couple 0:05:35.480 --> 0:05:40.000 of my biology professors at the University of Texas and UM, 0:05:40.040 --> 0:05:41.880 and they said, you know, if you're really interested in 0:05:41.960 --> 0:05:45.440 pursuing wildlife biology or wildlife management. You need to transfer 0:05:45.520 --> 0:05:48.760 to another school that has more of an applied resource 0:05:48.800 --> 0:05:51.880 management program. And so one of them said, go west 0:05:51.880 --> 0:05:54.000 young man to soul Ross. And I said, well, where's 0:05:54.040 --> 0:05:56.480 that And they said, that's an alpine in far west Texas. 0:05:56.560 --> 0:05:59.760 And so I, you know, dutifully looked it up. Small school, 0:06:00.120 --> 0:06:03.560 this kind of rich history and geology and wildlife and 0:06:03.640 --> 0:06:06.800 transferred to soul Ross and and then left school for 0:06:06.839 --> 0:06:09.360 a while to actually come work for Parts and Wildlife 0:06:09.360 --> 0:06:11.680 on one of their wildlife management areas. And a couple 0:06:11.720 --> 0:06:14.520 of professors from Texas Tech who were doing research on 0:06:14.560 --> 0:06:17.840 the wildlife management area convince me that, you know, Luck, 0:06:17.880 --> 0:06:19.560 you really need to go back school, finish up your 0:06:19.600 --> 0:06:21.960 degree and wildlife management. Why don't you come to Lovebuck. 0:06:22.120 --> 0:06:24.159 Let us show you around campus. Um you don't have 0:06:24.240 --> 0:06:25.920 that much to go. That's thee was a rule, now, 0:06:25.960 --> 0:06:28.320 isn't it. Yeah, it really is. It's you mean to 0:06:28.360 --> 0:06:32.760 get it like administrative level stuff, and you know it's 0:06:32.880 --> 0:06:36.200 there's certainly a lot of folks that have taken that trajectory. 0:06:36.640 --> 0:06:40.159 UM I wouldn't but the graduate program and certainly if 0:06:40.160 --> 0:06:43.360 you're gonna get employed, UM as a biologist with a 0:06:43.400 --> 0:06:45.680 state fish and Wildlife agency, you need a mattress degree 0:06:45.720 --> 0:06:48.600 for sure. It's just so hyper competitive. UM. And then 0:06:48.640 --> 0:06:50.240 candidly here, if you want to be a game board, 0:06:50.240 --> 0:06:52.040 you've got to have a college degree. Now that there's 0:06:52.040 --> 0:06:55.000 no requirement that it's in criminal justice or fisher reaeson, 0:06:55.040 --> 0:06:58.080 wildlife management or psychology or maybe any of the other 0:06:58.120 --> 0:07:01.360 fields you might think of or phil with with UM 0:07:01.520 --> 0:07:04.560 law enforcement. But you gotta have a college degree. UM. 0:07:04.600 --> 0:07:07.600 And that's a very important, I think distinguishing factor for 0:07:07.640 --> 0:07:11.360 our force. But yeah, the the advanced degree if you 0:07:11.400 --> 0:07:13.960 want to go into the biological sciences and and get 0:07:14.000 --> 0:07:17.400 into fish reason wildlife management. It's just so so competitive 0:07:17.440 --> 0:07:19.520 these days. It's just about imperative. That's what drives it 0:07:19.520 --> 0:07:21.800 in your minds, is the competition. Yeah, not like a 0:07:22.040 --> 0:07:25.600 not like a it's not a prerequisite for applications. Well, 0:07:25.880 --> 0:07:28.040 there is a prerex sid I mean typically we'll say 0:07:28.080 --> 0:07:30.840 preferred UM, you know, and so and you know, we've 0:07:30.880 --> 0:07:33.840 got plenty of biologists that UM that have undergraduate degrees 0:07:33.880 --> 0:07:36.200 and excel inside the agency, and then we have plenty 0:07:36.240 --> 0:07:38.520 of post docs. So it it runs the gamut on 0:07:38.560 --> 0:07:42.120 the continuum. But on average, I'd say, UM, these days, 0:07:42.160 --> 0:07:44.920 competing for a state Fish and Wildlife agency job, that 0:07:44.920 --> 0:07:48.000 that that at least a master job is going to help, UM, 0:07:48.360 --> 0:07:51.360 give you a little extra chance, and in in what 0:07:51.560 --> 0:07:53.840 is a very very competitive field. And you went off 0:07:53.880 --> 0:07:56.080 to Yale, I did, I did? There must have been 0:07:56.120 --> 0:08:01.880 a real shots, yeah, right, exactly. Yeah. If somebody said 0:08:01.880 --> 0:08:05.120 I took a wrong turn in Waco. Uh, but you 0:08:05.160 --> 0:08:07.040 know that? Did I feel pretty? We were you well 0:08:07.080 --> 0:08:10.240 traveled or were you pretty to spent your life around Texas? No? No, 0:08:10.320 --> 0:08:12.400 I mean I I had. I wouldn't say I was 0:08:12.440 --> 0:08:14.000 well traveled, but I've been outside of the state and 0:08:14.000 --> 0:08:16.440 now outside the country. Um. And I was excited about 0:08:16.440 --> 0:08:19.920 a challenge. Um, and candidly when I was kind of 0:08:19.920 --> 0:08:24.320 making my mandors through college, which was a very circuitous um, 0:08:24.440 --> 0:08:29.320 of course. Um. Before leaving Tech, I had applied to 0:08:29.440 --> 0:08:32.199 Yale and gotten in and then decided that I didn't 0:08:32.200 --> 0:08:34.480 want to do that, finished up my degree, came to 0:08:34.480 --> 0:08:39.280 work for Parks and Wildlife UM, and was here for oh, 0:08:39.320 --> 0:08:41.960 I guess almost two years, and realized I needed to 0:08:41.960 --> 0:08:45.560 go get that advanced degree, and Parks and Wildlife was 0:08:46.040 --> 0:08:48.080 looking at creating a position where I could go to 0:08:48.160 --> 0:08:51.040 a and m U, pursue my masters and continue work 0:08:51.120 --> 0:08:53.600 full time with the department, which was a huge opportunity. 0:08:54.480 --> 0:08:57.959 But I went ahead and decided to UM pursue UM 0:08:58.200 --> 0:09:01.480 admissions again into Yale end UM. I went in to 0:09:01.559 --> 0:09:04.560 talk to Bob Cook, who was the Wildlife Division director 0:09:04.920 --> 0:09:07.400 at the time and interestingly enough was my predecessor as 0:09:07.400 --> 0:09:13.480 the executive director and UM, and Bob said, Carter, We've 0:09:13.480 --> 0:09:16.960 got a terrific opportunity for you at college station. UM. 0:09:17.080 --> 0:09:19.719 I think it would work out very well. But I'm 0:09:19.720 --> 0:09:21.599 gonna take my parts and whild iife had off and 0:09:21.640 --> 0:09:23.960 if you were my son, I'd tell you to go east. UM. 0:09:24.080 --> 0:09:25.320 You need to go do that. You need to have 0:09:25.360 --> 0:09:28.200 a different experience in your life. Go go experience a 0:09:28.200 --> 0:09:32.479 different culture, group of people, different type of education. UM. 0:09:32.520 --> 0:09:33.880 And I think it will put you in good stead. 0:09:33.880 --> 0:09:36.120 And what you did so I did? I mean, I 0:09:36.160 --> 0:09:41.880 was terrified, absolutely, yeah, but I loved it. Uh. You know, 0:09:42.360 --> 0:09:46.160 wonderful university. UM. Lots of people from all over the globe, 0:09:46.360 --> 0:09:50.480 very stimulating intellectually. UM. And there I had a chance 0:09:50.520 --> 0:09:54.120 to meet a professor that really became a professional mentor 0:09:54.200 --> 0:09:57.200 for me Um a guy named Steve Kellert Um and 0:09:57.800 --> 0:10:01.640 Dr Kellert and E. O. Wilson and wrote that biofella 0:10:01.760 --> 0:10:06.679 you work. Yeah, that would be a stretch, but I 0:10:06.880 --> 0:10:10.840 did how he popularized that term biophelia. We talked about 0:10:10.880 --> 0:10:13.360 him my brothers in the college. He reads a lot 0:10:13.400 --> 0:10:17.360 of Oilson. Yeah, yeah, well you know what he was 0:10:17.360 --> 0:10:19.079 that he passed away? No, No, he is. He's still 0:10:19.160 --> 0:10:21.720 he's still alive. Um. And I think he's retired from Harvard. 0:10:21.760 --> 0:10:24.120 I mean he's probably still a professor emeritus or something. 0:10:24.480 --> 0:10:27.040 You know, I'll never forget. He's written so much on 0:10:27.080 --> 0:10:31.640 so many subjects. Just what an intellectual giant um and uh. 0:10:31.720 --> 0:10:33.440 And there was something that he wrote one tie that 0:10:33.440 --> 0:10:35.400 always stuck with me. The little guys, the little guys 0:10:35.400 --> 0:10:37.240 that ruled the world, you know. And of course he 0:10:37.280 --> 0:10:40.440 was an invertebrate biologist, and so I loved dance and 0:10:40.520 --> 0:10:42.760 all the little things. And when you think about you know, 0:10:42.840 --> 0:10:46.800 soul health and just the criticality of of of of 0:10:46.920 --> 0:10:50.760 microbes and the huge amount of biological diversity in our soil, 0:10:51.280 --> 0:10:53.959 and how that's just really the foundation for for everything. 0:10:54.000 --> 0:10:57.600 He was certainly spot on people that I mean just 0:10:57.800 --> 0:11:00.000 listeners that are curious for your talking about you can 0:11:00.040 --> 0:11:03.480 look up these comparisons of you know, if you took 0:11:03.520 --> 0:11:07.000 everything if you imagine all animal life like in an 0:11:07.040 --> 0:11:09.600 area and made a put in the pile, and then 0:11:09.600 --> 0:11:11.600 took all animal life out of the soil and put 0:11:11.640 --> 0:11:13.679 it in a pile, like the comparison of sizes, and 0:11:13.679 --> 0:11:15.120 then you get into stuff like if you took all 0:11:15.120 --> 0:11:17.640 the beatles in the world and put them in a pile, 0:11:17.760 --> 0:11:20.480 that the pile is bigger than all the humans and 0:11:20.600 --> 0:11:23.079 large mammals, and you know, pretty dramatic and it's funny, 0:11:23.120 --> 0:11:27.600 like you just you don't perceive the world that way. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:11:27.640 --> 0:11:30.080 Well another good comparison to that is like the tall 0:11:30.120 --> 0:11:32.319 grass parrot. You know, you look at those big, expansive 0:11:32.400 --> 0:11:35.280 tall grasses and then you dig up the root system 0:11:35.559 --> 0:11:39.120 and uh and what's on top of the whole pales 0:11:39.200 --> 0:11:43.160 in comparison to what's beneath iceberg. That's right, that's right. Yeah. 0:11:43.160 --> 0:11:47.560 The other issutingly thinking about Yale that um was was um. 0:11:48.400 --> 0:11:50.400 I mean I knew it before going there, but of 0:11:50.400 --> 0:11:53.280 course it's were aldo leopolg um, and so in the 0:11:53.360 --> 0:11:57.400 university very proud of that connection and that that ethic, 0:11:57.559 --> 0:12:01.160 and you know Gifford Pincho's time there, and and so 0:12:01.280 --> 0:12:04.160 there's been a lot of folks along history that went 0:12:04.200 --> 0:12:05.760 to school there, and you know, a lot of them 0:12:05.800 --> 0:12:09.480 you know, more in kind of policy related um um positions. 0:12:09.559 --> 0:12:12.280 But Steve Keller was just one of the brilliant thinkers, 0:12:12.320 --> 0:12:18.800 really interested in the human wildlife interface and people's attitudes 0:12:18.960 --> 0:12:23.480 towards wildlife and nature. And you know, I think for 0:12:23.520 --> 0:12:27.600 anybody that goes into a career in fisheries or wildlife 0:12:27.600 --> 0:12:31.600 management or conservational law enforcement, you quickly find out that 0:12:31.640 --> 0:12:34.240 most of your work has spent dealing with people, not creditters. 0:12:34.360 --> 0:12:36.560 It's really funny you mention next. We had a leading 0:12:36.600 --> 0:12:41.839 mountain lion biologist on recently and he like in being circumspects. Yeah, 0:12:41.960 --> 0:12:45.319 He's like, you know, I mostly deal with people. Yeah, 0:12:45.800 --> 0:12:50.400 I'd rather deal with lines, but I'm dealing with people. Yeah. Yeah, 0:12:50.440 --> 0:12:53.000 I'd rather deal with deer, but I mostly deal with people. Yeah. Yeah. 0:12:53.360 --> 0:12:57.120 Were you familiar with the writings of Aldo Leopold before 0:12:57.280 --> 0:12:59.559 before you went to school Sad County? You know, I 0:12:59.640 --> 0:13:02.280 grew up all that kind of stuff. Well a little later, 0:13:02.520 --> 0:13:05.560 I you know that that that came to me in college. 0:13:05.600 --> 0:13:08.320 I think the Saint Kenny Almanac was was actually a 0:13:08.440 --> 0:13:11.040 literature class. I had it at first all I went 0:13:11.080 --> 0:13:15.000 to Swann University of South and UM and it just 0:13:15.160 --> 0:13:19.479 really resonated with me. I mean his prose was so elegant. 0:13:19.559 --> 0:13:22.959 I mean it was so compelling, and he just wrote 0:13:23.000 --> 0:13:26.920 about the outdoors in ways that really spoke to me, 0:13:27.640 --> 0:13:29.400 um and in ways that no one had done and 0:13:29.480 --> 0:13:31.720 no one had done. Yeah yeah. And what's interesting about 0:13:31.720 --> 0:13:34.120 that writing is it's timeless, right. I mean we read 0:13:34.120 --> 0:13:38.080 it today and we thank god that was written, you know, 0:13:38.240 --> 0:13:41.280 seventy years ago or so, and it's as relevant today 0:13:41.280 --> 0:13:45.320 as it was in anything in there. I reread it 0:13:45.360 --> 0:13:50.319 now and then anything in there that feels dated, it's 0:13:50.360 --> 0:13:54.040 not actually dated, but it almost feels prophetic, like like 0:13:54.200 --> 0:13:57.480 the most of it feels like everything feels relevant and now, 0:13:57.520 --> 0:13:59.560 and then you read something and it feels like, man, 0:13:59.600 --> 0:14:03.760 he really was looking kind of forward or and I say, 0:14:03.800 --> 0:14:05.720 it's so much prophetic. We're talking about things that wanted 0:14:05.800 --> 0:14:08.679 being proving to be pretty timeless. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Well 0:14:08.720 --> 0:14:10.840 I think the whole stewardship ethic, you know, and of 0:14:10.840 --> 0:14:13.160 course at a private land state like Texas. Um, that's 0:14:13.280 --> 0:14:15.360 very Germaine to what we what we do. And I 0:14:15.400 --> 0:14:20.120 think Aldo Leopold wrote very very persuasively and movingly about 0:14:20.120 --> 0:14:22.920 the criticality of that ethic and making sure we do 0:14:23.000 --> 0:14:25.480 everything we can to help foster and engender that in 0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:28.680 our in our private lands managers and our private landowners. 0:14:28.680 --> 0:14:31.200 And so when you say private land state, US are 0:14:31.360 --> 0:14:35.240 in the nineties, yeah, and you know, proudly so, I 0:14:35.280 --> 0:14:37.200 mean that's part of the kind of the rich tradition 0:14:37.280 --> 0:14:40.960 of of Texas and so um, we're a very proudly 0:14:41.160 --> 0:14:44.280 private lands state. And and also you know, certainly from 0:14:44.280 --> 0:14:47.800 a conservation perspective here in Texas, if you're gonna get 0:14:47.840 --> 0:14:51.520 anything done any kind of a meaningful scale in Texas, 0:14:51.560 --> 0:14:53.680 it needs to be in concert and partnership with with 0:14:53.720 --> 0:14:57.080 private landowners. And so that's a big driver for us. Well, 0:14:57.080 --> 0:14:58.840 I imagine, I mean just that you know, you have 0:14:58.920 --> 0:15:00.600 to be realistic about it. I'm sure there's plenty of 0:15:00.640 --> 0:15:03.080 people that would like to have some more public land 0:15:03.120 --> 0:15:07.080 opportunities in a state like this. Wildlife conservation is gonna happen. 0:15:07.360 --> 0:15:11.320 It's gonna happen on private lands. It's where yeah, yeah, 0:15:11.440 --> 0:15:13.560 you bet. I don't want to skip too much, but 0:15:14.160 --> 0:15:16.720 you wanted with the Nature Conservancy. I did. Yeah, yeah, 0:15:16.720 --> 0:15:18.520 I worked for the Nature Conservancy and that was kind 0:15:18.520 --> 0:15:21.400 of an interesting transition. I um. When I left Yale, 0:15:21.400 --> 0:15:23.640 I was up in Canada for a while, up in 0:15:23.640 --> 0:15:28.320 the boreal forest, um way hoose work, which is pretty 0:15:28.320 --> 0:15:32.320 interesting and uh. And then I got talked into coming 0:15:32.360 --> 0:15:35.120 back to Texas from some interestingly enough, some parts and 0:15:35.160 --> 0:15:41.160 wildlife biologist friends that were really concerned about the development 0:15:41.160 --> 0:15:43.280 of the Katie Perrie west of Houston and just a 0:15:43.360 --> 0:15:48.880 waterfowl mecca, historic prairie wetland areas, lots of rice farming 0:15:48.920 --> 0:15:51.400 at the time. But Houston was, you know, on its 0:15:51.440 --> 0:15:55.840 inexorable march westward and um and there was a need 0:15:55.960 --> 0:15:59.360 for kind of a nature conservancy like organization that could 0:15:59.360 --> 0:16:02.480 work with parties to try to help protect some of 0:16:02.520 --> 0:16:06.040 that habitat before it all became impervious cover. It's so 0:16:06.640 --> 0:16:10.760 I got in pervious so so so just like this tabletop, 0:16:10.960 --> 0:16:14.120 you know, the parking lot, the asphalt, nothing gets like 0:16:15.720 --> 0:16:20.600 yeah yeah and so um and so Houston's moving west, 0:16:20.960 --> 0:16:25.560 You've got all this valuable rice farm habitat, wetlands, residual prairie, 0:16:26.600 --> 0:16:29.480 tons of waterfowl. UM. But you know, the concern was 0:16:29.520 --> 0:16:31.840 it was gonna get paved over unless there was somebody 0:16:31.880 --> 0:16:35.320 actively working to go out and work with landowners to 0:16:35.320 --> 0:16:38.440 try to figure out a way to conserve it. So interestingly, 0:16:38.480 --> 0:16:43.200 a group of waterfowl guides uh, rice farmers UM, a 0:16:43.200 --> 0:16:47.160 couple of developers, real estate attorneys, UM, and some of 0:16:47.520 --> 0:16:50.200 Houston's got the middle of the road conservationists said we 0:16:50.240 --> 0:16:54.640 need to create a land trust like organization. That was 0:16:54.680 --> 0:16:56.760 the coalition. Yeah, it's pretty cool. So they credit this 0:16:56.840 --> 0:16:59.600 Katie Perry conservance. Real quick. Oh you know what, hold 0:16:59.600 --> 0:17:02.040 that thought, all hold the thought? What were you looking 0:17:02.080 --> 0:17:05.040 at with moos? So we were looking at a variety 0:17:05.080 --> 0:17:07.880 of things and is kind of this concept about trophic 0:17:07.960 --> 0:17:11.840 cascades and whether or not systems were controlled top down 0:17:11.880 --> 0:17:16.359 through her beavery or more bottom up through nutrient related considerations. 0:17:16.359 --> 0:17:18.600 And at the who's in the driver's Yeah, kind of 0:17:18.600 --> 0:17:21.000 who's in the driver's seat and so in and you 0:17:21.040 --> 0:17:25.600 know how our forest management practices UM contributing to either um, 0:17:25.640 --> 0:17:29.719 you know, helping or hurting moose populations. And there was 0:17:30.200 --> 0:17:33.520 this this this Kotaria Universities that was working up on 0:17:33.600 --> 0:17:37.439 a Cree Indian reservation UM with funding from the National 0:17:37.440 --> 0:17:39.600 Science Foundation, and so they were looking at a wide 0:17:39.680 --> 0:17:43.280 variety of things. And it was University of Saskatchewan, University 0:17:43.280 --> 0:17:46.640 of British Columbia, University of Washington, Harvard, Yale, a couple 0:17:46.680 --> 0:17:48.840 of couple of others, and so there were there were 0:17:48.880 --> 0:17:53.080 professors and grad students from all over UM and we 0:17:53.119 --> 0:17:56.800 lived on this Kre Indian reservation and UM and and 0:17:56.840 --> 0:18:01.040 worked very closely with the First Nations Community, UM, the 0:18:01.080 --> 0:18:04.159 Saskatchewan provincial government on a variety of kind of research 0:18:04.240 --> 0:18:08.760 related topics. And my job was to help kind of 0:18:08.920 --> 0:18:12.760 keep all of that going. There were certain uh numbers 0:18:12.800 --> 0:18:15.320 from the community that we had to hire for jobs 0:18:15.359 --> 0:18:20.280 associated with the research. When researchers in their grad students 0:18:20.320 --> 0:18:21.920 would come up, I'd have to help them kind of 0:18:21.920 --> 0:18:25.040 get acclimated and help them get their research projects get 0:18:25.280 --> 0:18:28.000 get set up. And so he was a pretty eclectic 0:18:28.080 --> 0:18:30.360 mix of things that we were we were we were 0:18:30.359 --> 0:18:33.840 studying the moose stuff, obviously is what caught my attention 0:18:33.920 --> 0:18:37.000 the most, because I knew so little about moose before 0:18:37.000 --> 0:18:38.919 I got up there, and it was just interesting to 0:18:38.920 --> 0:18:41.240 be around a big game animal that was so you 0:18:41.280 --> 0:18:44.600 know iconic um in those in those in those forests, 0:18:44.600 --> 0:18:47.399 and yeah, I'll always treasure that time. Just uh but 0:18:47.440 --> 0:18:49.919 the culture shock was about like going to New Haven, Connecticut. 0:18:50.080 --> 0:18:54.080 Uh so in the other direction, in the other direction. Yeah. Yeah, 0:18:54.080 --> 0:18:56.080 So anyway, and I ended up making my way back 0:18:56.119 --> 0:18:59.680 to Katie at the behest of of of folks here 0:18:59.720 --> 0:19:02.200 to help start this land trust, which I knew absolutely 0:19:02.320 --> 0:19:04.640 what was the Yeah, when you talk about the land 0:19:04.640 --> 0:19:07.439 trust for Katy Prairie, what was the what was the 0:19:07.480 --> 0:19:11.960 developer participants? You know, so the developer participation were really 0:19:12.000 --> 0:19:14.960 a couple faults of Syrah Club was suing everybody over 0:19:15.560 --> 0:19:17.800 you know, development of wet lands, violations of the Clean 0:19:17.840 --> 0:19:19.800 Water Act. I mean it was World War three over 0:19:19.800 --> 0:19:22.520 there on the on the on the Katie Perry um. 0:19:22.800 --> 0:19:24.760 And so they were trying to find, let's create some 0:19:24.880 --> 0:19:27.760 organization in the radical center that can apply to everybody 0:19:27.760 --> 0:19:31.719 that's doing something applied, pragmatic, getting something done. It's not 0:19:31.840 --> 0:19:36.760 just a purely litigation oriented strategy. And um, you know, 0:19:36.800 --> 0:19:40.040 and I would say it the the the area was 0:19:40.040 --> 0:19:43.200 was pretty agricultural oriented, so it wasn't like a fit 0:19:43.240 --> 0:19:46.199 for an organization like the Nature Conservancy. And so that 0:19:46.240 --> 0:19:49.880 was the genesis for for for the land trust being created. 0:19:49.960 --> 0:19:53.040 You mean men, the nature conservants is generally associated with 0:19:53.119 --> 0:19:58.120 less disturbed less disturbed lands, Yeah, exactly. And and then 0:19:58.119 --> 0:20:00.199 I think folks wanted wanted a group that it was 0:20:00.240 --> 0:20:03.119 a local um. You know, it was locally driven. The 0:20:03.160 --> 0:20:06.880 board was local, people knew who they were, representatives from 0:20:06.920 --> 0:20:10.520 these different sectors that you know, kind of aligned around 0:20:10.520 --> 0:20:13.879 a plan to help protect parts of that, Katy Perry. 0:20:13.880 --> 0:20:16.600 And you know, to your question, the real estate developers 0:20:16.880 --> 0:20:19.159 saw it as a as a quality of life issue. 0:20:19.400 --> 0:20:23.480 They saw it also as an appreciation to real estate 0:20:23.680 --> 0:20:25.680 is there was going to be development out there. There 0:20:25.760 --> 0:20:32.399 is development out there, but having open spaces, parks, wildlife areas, 0:20:32.640 --> 0:20:34.680 they saw that, or at least some of them saw 0:20:34.760 --> 0:20:38.600 that as a value add to what inevitably was going 0:20:38.640 --> 0:20:42.399 to be the you know, future growth of Houston. And 0:20:42.480 --> 0:20:44.399 so having some of that preserved, they saw that as 0:20:44.440 --> 0:20:47.280 a as a proverbial win win playing yeah, playing the 0:20:47.320 --> 0:20:50.280 long game. And I'll tell you what's what's proved interesting 0:20:50.320 --> 0:20:54.600 about that too. If you look at um Hurricane Harvey, UM, 0:20:54.760 --> 0:20:58.280 when it perched over Houston and West Houston and dumped, 0:20:58.359 --> 0:21:02.280 you know, fifty inches of rain. You know, that area 0:21:02.480 --> 0:21:07.000 west of Houston, you know, becomes the receiving ground for 0:21:07.040 --> 0:21:10.399 all of that rain. And the more that can slow down, 0:21:10.520 --> 0:21:14.040 the more it can can penetrate into the soil percolate 0:21:14.080 --> 0:21:17.000 down there. As opposed to just running off concrete into 0:21:17.000 --> 0:21:19.640 a buy you, the less flooding it's gonna cost. So 0:21:19.640 --> 0:21:22.040 so as it turned out. You know what the Katie 0:21:22.040 --> 0:21:25.280 Perry Conservancy was doing when I started there, you know, 0:21:25.280 --> 0:21:29.600 it's all about waterfowl and waterfowl habitat. Um. Today it's 0:21:29.640 --> 0:21:32.919 a whole lot more about UH kind of an unconventional 0:21:32.920 --> 0:21:36.399 flood control strategy and preserving open space to help with 0:21:36.440 --> 0:21:40.480 attenuating UH floods into Houston in addition to protecting open 0:21:40.520 --> 0:21:43.560