Speaker 1: Kushkin.
Speaker 2: Self compassion in the simplest form is just treating yourself
Speaker 2: with the same warmth, kindness, care, concern that you would
Speaker 2: naturally show to a friend you cared about. So it's
Speaker 2: really nothing unusual. It's just that we're much more used
Speaker 2: to giving compassion to friends than we are to ourselves.
Speaker 1: Psychologist Kristin Neff is a pioneer in the study of
Speaker 1: self compassion, and she says the first step towards cultivating
Speaker 1: it is to ask ourselves this one question.
Speaker 2: The quintessential self compassion question is what do I need
Speaker 2: right now? What do I need to learn? What do
Speaker 2: I need to be there for myself right now? What
Speaker 2: do I need? Do I need to give some help?
Speaker 2: Do I need a bath? Wisdom is what tells you
Speaker 2: the answer, but being willing to ask the question is key,
Speaker 2: because what you're saying is my needs count I'm worthy
Speaker 2: of care and support.
Speaker 1: On today's episode, we learn about the science of self compassion,
Speaker 1: including strategies you can use to be kinder to yourself.
Speaker 1: I'm maya Shunker and this is a slight change of plans.
Speaker 1: A show about who we are and who we become
Speaker 1: in the face of a big change. Kristin Nef has
Speaker 1: written several books, including Self Compassion, The Proven Power of
Speaker 1: Being Kind to Yourself. She also runs workshops that teach
Speaker 1: people self compassion skills that they can use in their
Speaker 1: daily lives. Even though it seems like these skills should
Speaker 1: come to us pretty naturally, many of us struggle with
Speaker 1: being kind to ourselves. We often find it easier to
Speaker 1: be kind towards others. So I started our conversation by
Speaker 1: asking Kristen why, Well, there's a lot of reasons.
Speaker 2: Actually, I mean, we shouldn't beat ourselves up for beating
Speaker 2: ourselves up, because there are cultural and evolutionary reasons. So
Speaker 2: cultural reasons are that we aren't told it's good to
Speaker 2: be self compassionate. We're raised to be self sacrificing and
Speaker 2: that we should always be compassionate to others. And there's
Speaker 2: a lot of miss that get in the way of
Speaker 2: self compassion that we can talk about in a moment.
Speaker 2: But there's also an important evolutionary element. So the system
Speaker 2: that evolved to keep ourselves safe is a threat defense
Speaker 2: system right fight or freeze. So when we feel threatened,
Speaker 2: we fight ourselves with criticism, hoping we'll get ourselves in
Speaker 2: shape and be safe, or we flee into a sense
Speaker 2: of shame and isolation, or we freeze and get stuck.
Speaker 2: On the other hand, we do have a safety system
Speaker 2: for others, which is called the care system, and that
Speaker 2: system evolved primarily for our offspring and for our group members.
Speaker 2: And so in order to keep our offspring safe, for
Speaker 2: our group safe, we give compassion and support and kindness
Speaker 2: to those people who care about who are suffering. So
Speaker 2: we have to kind of do a little hack. It's
Speaker 2: actually more natural to be self critical when we're threaded
Speaker 2: in some way than it is to be self compassionate.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: You know, when your friend loses their job, you aren't
Speaker 2: personally threatened, so you go into care mode. When you
Speaker 2: lose your job, you're personally threatened, so you go into fight,
Speaker 2: flight or freeze mode. And so that's a pretty heavy
Speaker 2: brain difference that we've got to you know, work. Luckily,
Speaker 2: it can be done. But it's actually more natural to
Speaker 2: be compassionate to others than ourselves.
Speaker 1: To make sure I understand that you're saying that it's
Speaker 1: actually the feeling of threat that's ignited by our own
Speaker 1: pain and suffering that leads us to withhold compassion from
Speaker 1: ourselves because we think we need to act on this,
Speaker 1: we need to get this right, we need to solve
Speaker 1: this problem exactly.
Speaker 2: And so we're using the kind of our reptilian brain,
Speaker 2: the older brain, to think of just immediately, you know,
Speaker 2: we beat ourselves up. I'll criticize myself before other people do.
Speaker 2: Or again we just try to whip ourselves into shape
Speaker 2: with the most immediate way we know how, or again
Speaker 2: we go into shame mode, which is also a safety behavior,
Speaker 2: or rumination is also a safety behavior. Maybe if I
Speaker 2: just don't move or think about it five hundred times
Speaker 2: and problem won't go away.
Speaker 1: I have no idea what you're talking about, Kristin. I've
Speaker 1: never experienced this. It's more like a thousand times.
Speaker 2: But you know, the care mode is also natural, right,
Speaker 2: as you know, even like young children can feel carrying
Speaker 2: toward others. It's a completely natural system. It's just more
Speaker 2: often triggered by others people we care about. So we
Speaker 2: do have to make a switch and start treating ourselves
Speaker 2: like we would treat someone else we cared about.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I love this framing because I think
Speaker 1: it shows Look, there are some things that come very
Speaker 1: naturally to us. And then there are other things that
Speaker 1: require a lot of deliberate cognitive effort in order to
Speaker 1: inspire and cultivate within ourselves, and it seems like self
Speaker 1: compassion is one of those things.
Speaker 2: The effort needs to be made to remember to do
Speaker 2: it and also to give ourselves permission to do it,
Speaker 2: and the permission is very important, especially when our culture
Speaker 2: has told us that it's selfish to be kind to
Speaker 2: ourselves and that it's you know, we should will be
Speaker 2: lazy if we do, or will become self indulgent. So
Speaker 2: actually the act of being self compassionate is easeful. It's
Speaker 2: actually is a lot easier, if you think about it,
Speaker 2: to be kind to yourself than all the pain and
Speaker 2: effort that comes with criticizing yourself and cutting yourself down.
Speaker 2: This actually makes things flow better, more naturally. But remembering
Speaker 2: to do so is the bit that takes a little
Speaker 2: bit of practice and permission.
Speaker 1: Okay, that's really helpful and very clarifying. I love that. Okay,
Speaker 1: So you know, Kristin, I will confess that when I
Speaker 1: first encountered this work years ago, I was a little skeptical.
Speaker 1: And to be clear, it's not because I don't need
Speaker 1: more self compassion. I've always been an intensely self critical person.
Speaker 1: It's more that I just have had specific concerns, and
Speaker 1: I'm wondering if right now we can engage in a
Speaker 1: quick mythbusting session In case there are listeners out there
Speaker 1: who share some of the same skepticism I used to have.
Speaker 1: I want to bring them on this journey with me
Speaker 1: towards really embracing the research and really understanding the value.
Speaker 1: So one concern that I've had is that it seems
Speaker 1: like promoting self compassion can cause people to let themselves
Speaker 1: off the hook for their bad behaviors. And you know,
Speaker 1: I look around and I see a lot of people
Speaker 1: who are not taking accountability for their actions. Right, it
Speaker 1: seems like they could benefit from a bit more internal
Speaker 1: criticism and so and of course for myself, right, I've
Speaker 1: benefited from self criticism a lot. And so don't we
Speaker 1: need people to be more self critical so that they
Speaker 1: can be better to others?
Speaker 2: Yeah? So self compassion, this kind of unconditional acceptance and
Speaker 2: kindness is toward our worthless people. As human beings. We
Speaker 2: need to accept ourselves, but we can't accept all our behavior,
Speaker 2: especially if it's harming self or others, because if your
Speaker 2: behaviors cause harm to yourself or others, is not compassionate.
Speaker 2: So what we do with self compassion is we accept
Speaker 2: ourselves as flawed human beings who've made a mistake and
Speaker 2: that sense of safety. First of all, we don't blame
Speaker 2: others as much. Often, if we slam ourselves with shame
Speaker 2: for admitting we've done something wrong, our little brains are
Speaker 2: going to try as hard as they can to avoid
Speaker 2: taking responsibility and to blame someone else that they can.
Speaker 2: By the way, research shows that self compassion lessons shame,
Speaker 2: which is a sense of I am bad, but not
Speaker 2: necessarily guilt, which is I did something bad.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And reading your scholarship, I found this distinction very
Speaker 1: helpful because you talk about the difference between guilt and shame,
Speaker 1: and you say, look, being critical of our behaviors is healthy.
Speaker 1: It is good. It provides learning opportunities, It allows us
Speaker 1: to be better people, allows us to reflect on who
Speaker 1: we are and what we want from ourselves moving forward.
Speaker 1: But criticism aimed at ourselves, at our being as a whole,
Speaker 1: is not healthy because, as you said, and I've definitely
Speaker 1: fallen into this camp in the past. You don't want
Speaker 1: to internalize I made a mistake as I am a mistake, right,
Speaker 1: I am bad Exactly.
Speaker 2: When you do that, it actually shuts down your ability
Speaker 2: to learn from your mistakes because you're so consumed by
Speaker 2: the thoughts of inadequacy or shame. Our sense of self
Speaker 2: kind of gets totally absorbed by the shame. It's like
Speaker 2: we disappear. There's no one home to be able to
Speaker 2: try to correct the behavior. You need the safety of
Speaker 2: self acceptance to be able to criticize your behavior and
Speaker 2: to learn from it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: One really counterintuitive finding that I stumbled upon when I
Speaker 1: was reading your work is that when we are consumed
Speaker 1: by shame, it actually makes it harder for us to
Speaker 1: apologize to others. There was also another study that I
Speaker 1: read about that hits on what I would call moral motivation. Ah. Yes,
Speaker 1: so research suggesting that self compassion can actually increase our
Speaker 1: motivation to take personal responsibility for our actions.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So one study they did Brienni's and Chen was
Speaker 2: they had undergraduate students think about some behavior they had
Speaker 2: done that they regretted. Maybe they lied to someone, or
Speaker 2: they cheated on an exam, or they did something they
Speaker 2: felt really badly about And one group of people they
Speaker 2: gave instructions to be compassionate about what they had done,
Speaker 2: and a control group they told nothing, which meant they
Speaker 2: were probably beating themselves up about what they'd done, because
Speaker 2: that's kind of a default mode for most of us.
Speaker 2: And what they found was that the students who were
Speaker 2: told to be compassionate about the mistake they made, when
Speaker 2: they were asked how motivated are you to either apologize
Speaker 2: or actually to repair the mistake in some way, they
Speaker 2: found those who were told to be self compassionate were
Speaker 2: more motivated to repair the situation and to apologize.
Speaker 1: Wow. So another myth that I love you to bust
Speaker 1: is that self compassion is demotivating. And this one's personal.
Speaker 1: So my husband Jimmy, he loves playing competitive squash. Okay,
Speaker 1: he's obsessed with squash. He's obsessed with getting better, and
Speaker 1: he's so self motivated, but he really berates himself when
Speaker 1: he has a poor performance. And as someone who really
Speaker 1: loves him, I hate seeing him in this self vurration mode,
Speaker 1: Like it's pretty painful after a tournament or after some
Speaker 1: competition for him to be like, oh God, why did
Speaker 1: I do that? Or you know, I messed up or
Speaker 1: I didn't play my best. But when I tell him
Speaker 1: to stop the self criticism, to curve it a bit,
Speaker 1: his counter argument is that he doesn't want to lose
Speaker 1: that part of himself because it means he might have
Speaker 1: less motivation to work hard during his next practice session.
Speaker 1: And so, yeah, give me a good argument with my husband.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, i'll give you the argument that I'll give
Speaker 2: you the data because this one is also very very clear,
Speaker 2: is it self? Compassion is a more effective motivator than
Speaker 2: self criticism. So self criticism does kind of work. Clearly.
Speaker 2: It gets people through med school. It probably motivates your husband,
Speaker 2: But the motivation comes from fear I have to do
Speaker 2: better or else I'll slam myself, And that's motivating. No
Speaker 2: one wants to feel like they're a bad person or
Speaker 2: a loser, So that does provide some motivational power, but
Speaker 2: it also has some maladaptive side effects, which is first
Speaker 2: of all, performance anxiety. Right, So we want some anxiety
Speaker 2: to feel like, okay, it's important that I work. But
Speaker 2: performance anxiety, which is kind of fear of if I
Speaker 2: mess up, I'm going to be a loser or I'm
Speaker 2: going to shame myself. That actually stands in the way
Speaker 2: of our ability to do our best. It also undermines
Speaker 2: our self confidence. But this is really key, it undermines
Speaker 2: our ability to learn. It's very similar to what we
Speaker 2: were just talking about. If you shame yourself for losing,
Speaker 2: I'm a loser, I'm a bad person. You aren't going
Speaker 2: to be as able to say, Okay, just because I
Speaker 2: lost doesn't mean I'm a loser. What can I do
Speaker 2: better next time? And so self compassion is very strongly
Speaker 2: linked to a learning goal orientation as opposed to what's
Speaker 2: called performance goals, which is my success or failure, defiance
Speaker 2: my work as a person. There's a new study that
Speaker 2: isn't even published yet. It just got accepted a few
Speaker 2: days ago. Hot Off the Presses.
Speaker 1: Who I Love Hot Off the Presses Slight change listeners,
Speaker 1: listen up.
Speaker 2: So you know, I work at University of Texas at Austin,
Speaker 2: and I had a dissertation student at the time. He
Speaker 2: was an ex basketball player who for her dissertation decided
Speaker 2: to formalize a self compassion training for nc DOUBLEA athletes.
Speaker 2: So we did a study with several high end NCUBA
Speaker 2: sports teams, all different sports, and we taught them self
Speaker 2: compassion over about four weeks. We actually didn't call it
Speaker 2: self compassion because we knew that was stand in the way.
Speaker 2: We called it inner resilience training, and we taught them
Speaker 2: how to be warm and supportive and kind of themselves
Speaker 2: when they were having trouble in their training routine or
Speaker 2: if they lost in their sport. And what we found
Speaker 2: is not only did it help players' mental health, it
Speaker 2: improved their performance, both self rated and coach rated performance,
Speaker 2: because again, when it's okay to make a mistake or
Speaker 2: to lose, you're more able to learn from the loss
Speaker 2: or the mistake and improve it next time.
Speaker 1: So yes, I love all this research, Kristen. Another concern
Speaker 1: that I'd had when it came to engaging with the
Speaker 1: self compassion work or trying out these interventions is that
Speaker 1: it just kind of felt self centered or selfish or narcissistic.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I was like, what am I doing here,
Speaker 1: sitting here trying to love myself? Like I just, yeah,
Speaker 1: convince me that this is not just the most extreme
Speaker 1: form of narcissism.
Speaker 2: Yes, well absolutely. The reason it's not selfish or narcissistic
Speaker 2: is because it's not like we only have five units
Speaker 2: of compassion and if we give three to ourselves, we
Speaker 2: only have two left over for other people. It actually
Speaker 2: doesn't work this way. Then the research is very clear,
Speaker 2: the more self compassion we give ourselves, in other words,
Speaker 2: the more we fill our own cup, the more compassion
Speaker 2: we have available to give to others. Right, so, there's
Speaker 2: a couple of studies that show this one is burnout.
Speaker 2: You know, this burnout such a problem. We know, whether
Speaker 2: you're a special needs parent or you're a healthcare worker,
Speaker 2: if you're more self compassionate, you're less likely to burn
Speaker 2: out or experience fatigue giving compassion to others. And then
Speaker 2: the other evidence we have that self compassion isn't selfish
Speaker 2: is that in relationships, our partners say that we're more giving,
Speaker 2: we're less selfish, we're less controlling in the relationship if
Speaker 2: we have self compassion. And again, it's really about resourcing yourself.
Speaker 2: When you can resource yourself, you actually have more to
Speaker 2: give to others and you aren't so self focused because
Speaker 2: it's like, oh, Okay, maybe I made a mistake or
Speaker 2: maybe this is a little difficult, and you give yourself
Speaker 2: what you need to get through that and that actually
Speaker 2: gives you the emotional energy you need to care for others.
Speaker 2: Shame and self criticism is an incredibly self focused state.
Speaker 2: You know, who are you thinking about when you're beating
Speaker 2: yourself up? Not other people?
Speaker 1: Good point toiche. I think this is such a critical
Speaker 1: point that you're making about us not having finite compassion resources,
Speaker 1: because I think we do think of it as a
Speaker 1: trade off instinctively. Oh, if I'm really compassionate towards myself,
Speaker 1: then I have fewer resources to give to others. Or
Speaker 1: if I'm really compassionate towards others, I don't have the
Speaker 1: resources to give that same compassion to myself. Yes, And
Speaker 1: what you're telling me is that we shouldn't see it
Speaker 1: as a limited resource. We actually can tap into a
Speaker 1: lot and it can be a virtuous cycle where the
Speaker 1: more we invest compassion ourselves, the more the more we
Speaker 1: have to give to others. Is that right?
Speaker 2: Absolutely, it's additive. It's not a zero sum game.
Speaker 1: Yes. Yeah, Okay, an important distinction you make. So in
Speaker 1: us really grasping what self compassion is, it's important to
Speaker 1: say what it is not. Yes, And so you do
Speaker 1: distinguish between something like self compassion and self esteem. And
Speaker 1: I think this actually helps us understand why it is
Speaker 1: not self indulgent. It's not necessarily ego boosting to be
Speaker 1: self compassion. So tell me about the difference between self
Speaker 1: compassion and self esteem.
Speaker 2: Right, So self esteem, at least, you know, people define
Speaker 2: different ways. But if you think about the word esteem,
Speaker 2: it's a judgment or an evaluation of worth. So usually
Speaker 2: it's predicated on being special and above average. You know,
Speaker 2: if I said, hey, Maya, you have this podcasts average,
Speaker 2: You're going to be devastated. If you say, hey, Christian,
Speaker 2: your research is average, I'll be devastated. Right, So the
Speaker 2: way it's set up is we all have to be
Speaker 2: above average just for baseline self esteem. And so because
Speaker 2: we're always comparing ourselves to others, that could lead to
Speaker 2: problems like narcissism. If you think what narcissism is is
Speaker 2: people who have to either be really superior to others
Speaker 2: or who cannot take any negative feedback whatsoever they deflected.
Speaker 2: They put up the shield because it's so devastating. So
Speaker 2: self esteem is based on social comparison. It's also based
Speaker 2: on h performance success and that might be you know,
Speaker 2: success in terms of am I attractive, do people like me?
Speaker 2: And so self esteem tends to be contingent on external
Speaker 2: factors like did I succeed or not? So self esteem
Speaker 2: is a fair weather friend, right. It's there for you
Speaker 2: when you're better than others or when you succeed, and
Speaker 2: it deserts you when you need it most, when you're rejected,
Speaker 2: or you feel inadequate, or you you know, fall flat
Speaker 2: on your face. Self compassion is a good friend. It's
Speaker 2: a stable friend. And if you're smiling and say, where's
Speaker 2: the research for that? One study, for instance, is we
Speaker 2: did measure self worth. We measured it twelve times over
Speaker 2: an eight month period, and it was level of overall
Speaker 2: self compassion, not level of self esteem that predicted stability
Speaker 2: and self worth. You know, so self worth goes up
Speaker 2: and down with self esteem. You have a good hair day,
Speaker 2: you have a bad hair day. Self compassion is really
Speaker 2: a constant friend. It's intrinsic to being human. Right. The
Speaker 2: quintessential self compassion question is what do I need right now?
Speaker 2: What do I need to learn? What do I need
Speaker 2: to be there for myself right now? What do I need?
Speaker 2: Do I need to give some help? Do I need
Speaker 2: a bath? Wisdom? Is what tells you the answer, But
Speaker 2: being willing to ask the question is key because what
Speaker 2: you're saying is my needs count I'm worthy of care
Speaker 2: and support.
Speaker 1: After the break, Kristen walks us through the three elements
Speaker 1: of self compassion. Then she shares a helpful exercise so
Speaker 1: we can start practicing this skill in real time. We'll
Speaker 1: be back in a moment with a slight change of plans.
Speaker 1: I love this three component model you have for self compassion,
Speaker 1: and it actually starts with mindfulness, which is a little
Speaker 1: bit of a surprise for me. So help me thread
Speaker 1: the needle between mindfulness and self compassion.
Speaker 2: Yes, so, first of all, that's not an accident because
Speaker 2: I first learned about self compassion when I was learning
Speaker 2: mindfulness meditation. And so mindfulness has to be in self
Speaker 2: compassion because mindfulness is what allows us to turn toward
Speaker 2: and acknowledge the pain. We can't give ourself warmth and
Speaker 2: support or ask you know, what can I do to
Speaker 2: help if we don't acknowledge it, I'm hurting. And because
Speaker 2: we're human beings who are naturally resistant to pain and suffering,
Speaker 2: often we don't either. We ignore it. We just stiff
Speaker 2: up the lip and I'm just not going to pause
Speaker 2: to acknowledge that I'm hurting and need some compassion. Or
Speaker 2: if we do the opposite, which I like to call
Speaker 2: over identification, and that means we're lost in the negative emotion.
Speaker 2: We're lost in the feelings of fear, shame, or anger
Speaker 2: or whatever it happens to be. And so if you
Speaker 2: think about if a friend were to call you up,
Speaker 2: and first of all, you didn't take their phone call,
Speaker 2: you don't listen to what your friend had to say,
Speaker 2: You couldn't give them compassion. You know, I'm too busy.
Speaker 2: We often do that with theirselves. Actually we're too busy
Speaker 2: deposit and acknowledge we're hurting and we need a little help.
Speaker 2: But the other thing, imagine if your friend called you
Speaker 2: and you just talked right over them and you didn't
Speaker 2: give them any space for them to tell you your story.
Speaker 2: We also actually do that with ourself a lot. We
Speaker 2: get so wrapped up in our pain and the story
Speaker 2: and the drama of what's happening that there's no space
Speaker 2: to step outside of ourselves and say, hey, you're really
Speaker 2: having a hard time. How can I help you? So
Speaker 2: we actually need to start with mindfulness. We need to
Speaker 2: turn towards the pain, as uncomfortable as it is, in
Speaker 2: order to respond with this warmth and kindness. And so
Speaker 2: then the second element of self compassion, which actually may
Speaker 2: not be so intuitive, is a sense of common humanity
Speaker 2: or in other words, recognizing that we aren't alone. One
Speaker 2: of the problems when our suffering occurs, especially when it's
Speaker 2: something that we've done, we've made a mistake, is it
Speaker 2: Irrationally we feel like everyone else in the world is
Speaker 2: living a normal, perfect life and it's just me who's
Speaker 2: failed or made this mistake, or it's just me who's
Speaker 2: going through this really challenging time. So again, it's not
Speaker 2: a logical thought, but it's the way we feel about it.
Speaker 2: And this is like kicking ourselves when we're down, because
Speaker 2: not only are we hurting, we feel there's something wrong
Speaker 2: with us for hurting, and we feel like we're the
Speaker 2: only one. We feel isolated and alone in that pain.
Speaker 2: So remembering other people it does two things. First of all,
Speaker 2: it reminds us that we aren't alone, which helps as
Speaker 2: supposed to feeling isolated. But it also, going back to
Speaker 2: what I said earlier, it allows us to take our
Speaker 2: pain less personally. That it's not poor me, it's well,
Speaker 2: everyone is imperfect, everyone struggles. I'm not alone in this.
Speaker 2: This is part of this larger hole that we call
Speaker 2: human life. And then when we remember that, we feel
Speaker 2: more connected as opposed to feeling isolated.
Speaker 1: And what do we do, Kristin, when we what do
Speaker 1: we do to combat feelings of exceptionalism in this regard?
Speaker 1: And by that, I mean, yeah, I understand everyone's flawed,
Speaker 1: but I kame a maaya am legitimately flawed. I am
Speaker 1: super flawed. And again I recognize there is an element
Speaker 1: of narcissism baked in a comment like that, which is
Speaker 1: to think you're so special that you're the worst person ever. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but you know a lot of us do experience this
Speaker 1: feeling that, Okay, there is some shared common humanity. But
Speaker 1: what if secretly like I'm actually worse than everyone else
Speaker 1: than what?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Does that resonate?
Speaker 2: Yeah? So that is a common thought. That's why it's
Speaker 2: really helpful to practice self compassion with other people. So,
Speaker 2: for instance, our self compassion training program is done in
Speaker 2: small groups. I mean, you hear other people and they're
Speaker 2: belief that they are the most uniquely flawed person in
Speaker 2: the world. Quite quickly disabuses you of that illusion that
Speaker 2: you know you're the most flawed person in the world,
Speaker 2: and then actually what happens is self compassion or turning
Speaker 2: towards your suffering becomes a way of feeling more connected
Speaker 2: to everyone. Everyone struggles with feeling they're the most uniquely
Speaker 2: flawed person of the world. That belief itself actually connects
Speaker 2: us as human beings.
Speaker 1: So what I'm hearing is that, you know, for those
Speaker 1: who are struggling to even just crack the door open
Speaker 1: on self compassion because they think they're unworthy of the
Speaker 1: practice altogether, if you go to a group setting, for example,
Speaker 1: where others are able to be open and honest with
Speaker 1: you about their own feelings of shame, their own feelings
Speaker 1: of unworthiness, that can be a really nice way to
Speaker 1: signal to your brain. Look, you're not even alone in
Speaker 1: the feeling that you're the most deeply flawed person ever,
Speaker 1: like other people are feeling that.
Speaker 2: As well, exactly as part of the human experience.
Speaker 1: Okay, so we've talked about two components so far, right,
Speaker 1: So we've talked about the importance of paying attention to
Speaker 1: our sufferings to to being mindful, and the second is
Speaker 1: around just seeing ourselves as humans. Right, we're part of
Speaker 1: this richer fabric which is complicated and messy, and we're
Speaker 1: not alone in our suffering. What is the third element?
Speaker 2: Well, the third is actually the one that's most intuitive,
Speaker 2: and that's kindness, feelings of warmth, care and support. So
Speaker 2: you can either think what would I say to a
Speaker 2: dear friend in the exact same situation, and then that
Speaker 2: shock your template for what to say to yourself, or alternatively,
Speaker 2: you can imagine, you know, what would a really kind person,
Speaker 2: what would ted Lasso, for instance, say to me in
Speaker 2: this situation, or my grandmother or someone that really cared
Speaker 2: about me. And actually, when most people think of self compassion,
Speaker 2: they only think of the kindness. They forget the mindfulness
Speaker 2: and the sense of common humanity. And that's partly why
Speaker 2: people think it's selfish. I mean, a narcissist may be
Speaker 2: really kind to themselves, but if they think they're better
Speaker 2: than other people, or if they don't have mindfulness to
Speaker 2: clearly see their flaws and their mistakes, then it's actually
Speaker 2: not self compassion. It's like a three legged stool. You
Speaker 2: need all three.
Speaker 1: So Kristin, first of all, thanks for convincing I that
Speaker 1: we should be on board with self compassion. That's very helpful,
Speaker 1: but that doesn't obviously make us immediately self compassionate. And
Speaker 1: so you have built a number of practices. You say,
Speaker 1: self compassion is a skill that we can work to
Speaker 1: intentionally develop. And one of your self compassion practices is
Speaker 1: called the self compassion break, and it just takes a
Speaker 1: few minutes. It can be practiced daily. I love this
Speaker 1: one because for someone like me just getting your feet wet,
Speaker 1: you know, it's easy to integrate into daily life. And
Speaker 1: so do you mind just leading me? We've got the
Speaker 1: expert here, so obviously I'm not going to forego an
Speaker 1: opportunity to be led through a self compassion exercise. Do
Speaker 1: you mind just leading us through a version of that?
Speaker 2: Absolutely? So, really, all you're doing is intentionally calling the
Speaker 2: mind the three components of mindfulness, common humanity, kindness towards
Speaker 2: an instance of suffering. So basically, you just start by
Speaker 2: thinking of something that's causing you some distress in your life.
Speaker 2: You know, hopefully think of something minor right now, because
Speaker 2: you don't want to get lost and stop listening to
Speaker 2: the podcast because you're overwhelmed. The thing something that's bothering you,
Speaker 2: maybe about yourself or you know, some stress you're experiencing,
Speaker 2: maybe a health issue. To just take a moment to
Speaker 2: decide what to work with. And of course, in real
Speaker 2: life you don't have to decide it, it will present itself.
Speaker 2: But for I now think of something, and then the
Speaker 2: first thing to do is just to bring mindfulness to it.
Speaker 2: So just acknowledge, hey, this is hard, you know, instead
Speaker 2: of just immediately trying to problem solve or get rid
Speaker 2: of the problem, just acknowledge that this hurts, this is challenging,
Speaker 2: and then remember the humanity of this situation, right, This
Speaker 2: is part of life. Being human is not about being perfect.
Speaker 2: People make mistakes. You aren't the only one. Is just
Speaker 2: taking a moment to remember that this actually connects you
Speaker 2: to other people. You aren't alone in this, and then
Speaker 2: try giving yourself some kindness because it is hard. Maybe
Speaker 2: thinking of what you would say to a good friend.
Speaker 2: Imagine if you had a really good friend who is
Speaker 2: experiencing the exact same thing you're experiencing. Just take a
Speaker 2: moment to do that, right, what would you say, what
Speaker 2: tone of voice would you use? Right? And then just
Speaker 2: try saying something similar to yourself. Mean, I'm here for you.
Speaker 2: I'm so sorry, this is so difficult. How can I help?
Speaker 2: I care about you? Right, And that's really the practice.
Speaker 2: It can be done very quickly. You can also do
Speaker 2: it and longer, but it is that three legged still.
Speaker 2: You start with the mindfulness. You remember that you aren't alone.
Speaker 2: You give yourself kindness. So mind that short, little little
Speaker 2: mini self compassion break. Did you notice a shift and
Speaker 2: something you were thinking of?
Speaker 1: I did, and I felt like, well, one, even to
Speaker 1: pose these questions to yourself is so powerful and not
Speaker 1: at all what I naturally gravitate towards in my day
Speaker 1: to day life. I mean, it's I had this meta experience.
Speaker 1: It was literally powerful for me to hear those questions
Speaker 1: being asked of me in the first place. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: I you know, I was thinking about reading some reviews
Speaker 1: of the podcast, which is always fun. I mean, some
Speaker 1: of the ninety nine percent are so delightful and so charming,
Speaker 1: and I'm so moved by the impact the show has had.
Speaker 1: And of course, like every other human planet Earth, I
Speaker 1: take the one that's critical or harsh, and I take
Speaker 1: it so personally, like this happened last night, Right, I
Speaker 1: read this one comment, and I was like, did I
Speaker 1: make the wrong decision? Should I have said it this
Speaker 1: way versus this way? And I was just I was
Speaker 1: beating myself up, and just in this moment, I was
Speaker 1: trying to think to myself, Okay, well, surely I'm not
Speaker 1: the only podcaster to have confronted this, or write or
Speaker 1: author or writer or literally anyone who puts their point
Speaker 1: of you out into the world right is going to
Speaker 1: have these feelings. And so yeah, it did allow me
Speaker 1: to have a slightly more compassionate posture towards myself, which
Speaker 1: is really amazing.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Okay, So now that we understand the value of self
Speaker 1: compassion and also why it is that we resist it
Speaker 1: and some ways that we can cultivate it, I'd love
Speaker 1: to workshop some of these ideas and help us understand
Speaker 1: how we can apply this very valuable wisdom to our
Speaker 1: everyday lives. And so I've chosen I think everyone struggles
Speaker 1: in this area where we have to navigate difficult conversations
Speaker 1: or relationship moments. So you know, I hear from so
Speaker 1: many of my friends who have kids that they in
Speaker 1: the moment, they're frustrated, they lose their patience, they overreact
Speaker 1: and then they beat themselves up after or they're in
Speaker 1: a conversation with their partner and they find themselves getting
Speaker 1: angry or flippant or whatever it is. And so, how
Speaker 1: can we show ourselves a little bit more self compassion
Speaker 1: in these moments where can we just fall prey to
Speaker 1: being human? Really, that's all it is.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So it's funny. I just had something like this
Speaker 2: happened with my boyfriend where I was reactive and I
Speaker 2: was inappropriate. And we're fairly new in our relationship. It's
Speaker 2: about three months and he's thinking, sheils like this. I
Speaker 2: am wired to be reactive. I've worked on it a
Speaker 2: little bit, and I've done like lots of silent meditation
Speaker 2: retreats and all these mindfulness techniques. When the reaction comes up,
Speaker 2: there's really nothing I can do. It's like my brain,
Speaker 2: the reactivity takes over. There's nose. This is me. Other
Speaker 2: people manage to be mindful, not me. It just takes over,
Speaker 2: and I don't have the clarity to be able to say, Kristen,
Speaker 2: do you really want to respond that way? You know,
Speaker 2: maybe use a little you know help here. It just
Speaker 2: just my wiring doesn't work that way. People's brains are different.
Speaker 2: In my brain when it gets triggered, I'm just I'm
Speaker 2: no longer there. I don't have the observer who's able
Speaker 2: to make a choice. It's gotten a little better. It's
Speaker 2: not totally fair, but marginally so. And so you may
Speaker 2: not be able to give yourself compassion in the moment
Speaker 2: that you're having that reaction with your kids or your friend.
Speaker 2: But what you can do is very quickly afterward. So
Speaker 2: it takes me about five minutes tops to come down
Speaker 2: and I realize the little brain I call it brain
Speaker 2: farts reactivity. It's like it just happens, and then it's like, okay, okay,
Speaker 2: I've got clarity again. Wow. The self compassion allows me
Speaker 2: to apologize if I've been reactive, whether it again to
Speaker 2: my son or my partner, to a friend, to own it.
Speaker 2: I don't like blame me other person. I don't try
Speaker 2: to justify it that I was really out of line.
Speaker 2: I'm very sorry, and that helps the other person get
Speaker 2: over it and you get to the point of talking
Speaker 2: about what happened. But you know the other thing I've
Speaker 2: started doing recently which really helps as I frontload it,
Speaker 2: Like if I'm meeting a new person. I'll say, you know,
Speaker 2: I could be reactive. It's just the way my brain
Speaker 2: is wired. If it happens, please don't take it personally.
Speaker 2: And you can also do that with your kids, right
Speaker 2: You can say to your kids, I'm not perfect. Sometimes
Speaker 2: I react. It's not how I want to be with you,
Speaker 2: but it may happen. This is how human beings are.
Speaker 2: If it does happen, I will apologize. And then what
Speaker 2: you're doing is you're modeling for your kid that we
Speaker 2: are human. As long as we don't pretend we didn't
Speaker 2: do it, or try to blame someone else or avoid responsibility,
Speaker 2: then not only does it help them not take it personally,
Speaker 2: it gives them permission to be a little more self
Speaker 2: compassionate to themselves. We think that harshness helps us stay inline.
Speaker 2: It actually doesn't. When we're harsh and we feel shame
Speaker 2: or we really feel a lot of stress of judging ourselves,
Speaker 2: and actually makes us more reactive, not less reactive, because
Speaker 2: our brain is also filled with all these negative judgments.
Speaker 2: Carl Rogers said famously, the curious paradox is the more
Speaker 2: I accept myself, the more I can change.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is excellent role modeling when it comes to
Speaker 1: self compassion, because what I'm hearing you do is say, Okay,
Speaker 1: there's this thing that I do that I don't love.
Speaker 1: I'm owning it. I'm trying to work on it. It's gotten
Speaker 1: a little bit better over the years, but it doesn't
Speaker 1: feel fully in my control. I do feel sometimes like
Speaker 1: I just lose it and I'm just not able to
Speaker 1: be that dispassionate observer who's curving the behavior. So given this,
Speaker 1: I am going to do whatever I can to protect
Speaker 1: the people around me when I mean in that state
Speaker 1: and make them know that they shouldn't. You take it personally,
Speaker 1: and so that just seems like such a healthy recipe.
Speaker 1: And you're not excusing it. You're not saying I love that,
Speaker 1: I'm this way deal with it. You're like, I'm working
Speaker 1: on it. But it's a it's a slow work.
Speaker 2: And the more people accept you and your flaws, ironically,
Speaker 2: the easier it is to be mindful, to be aware,
Speaker 2: because often reactivity comes from your ego being triggered in
Speaker 2: some way, and the more you feel accepted, the less
Speaker 2: your ego needs to defend itself.
Speaker 1: I like that what happens. Kristen so a lot of
Speaker 1: people who are listening to this show. Given my understanding
Speaker 1: of Slight Change listeners based on my interaction, they're the
Speaker 1: kinds of people who really really care for others. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and then they also really want to be self compassionate.
Speaker 1: And sometimes those things can stand in conflict with one another, right,
Speaker 1: they can be at odds. So the thing that's going
Speaker 1: to be compassionate towards myself is going to conflict with
Speaker 1: being compassionate towards someone else. How do we navigate those
Speaker 1: tensions where we feel like doing a thing that's kind
Speaker 1: to us is maybe not the kindest thing for someone else.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it reminds me a little bit of the boundaries conversation.
Speaker 2: There's a great quote by apprentice Hempill that boundaries are
Speaker 2: the distance at which I can love myself and you simultaneously.
Speaker 2: So finding that balance point, whether it's a boundary or
Speaker 2: whether it's a negotiation where we respect the other person's
Speaker 2: needs and our needs is of course it's the ideal, right,
Speaker 2: But as you say, there are some situations where it's
Speaker 2: just not possible, where it's just either or, And that's
Speaker 2: what you know. There's no heart and fast rule for
Speaker 2: doing that is wisdom. So, for instance, with my son
Speaker 2: or you know, parent child relationships, he's also autistic, So
Speaker 2: when he was younger, you just make the choice to
Speaker 2: put your child first. You know, it's not even necessarily
Speaker 2: that difficult to choice. And by the way, it's not
Speaker 2: like you're ignoring your own needs, because if your child
Speaker 2: is unhappy, you're going to be unhappy. So or if
Speaker 2: the relationship is poor, you're going to be unhappy. So
Speaker 2: there's also some benefit for the self. But now that
Speaker 2: he's older, for instance, and he's doing great, by the way,
Speaker 2: I can say, you know, I would love to take
Speaker 2: you to the zoo, but actually I'm sorry, I've got
Speaker 2: to have her plans that weekend. You know, self compassion
Speaker 2: doesn't provide answers about how to resolve a conflict. But
Speaker 2: what it does do is it allows you to access
Speaker 2: your wisdom to think of it from all sides. Again,
Speaker 2: you don't prioritize your own needs, but you don't subordinate them.
Speaker 2: You don't make your choices based on whether or not
Speaker 2: people are going to like you. You make your choice
Speaker 2: voices from care, care for yourself, care for the other person,
Speaker 2: and you also you give yourself the safety to know,
Speaker 2: maybe we'll make a mistake. Maybe I'll try this and
Speaker 2: it won't work out, so we'll have to try something different.
Speaker 2: But a lot of people when they're starting out absolutely
Speaker 2: I got an email at once from a woman who said,
Speaker 2: thanks for giving me one more thing I'm bad at,
Speaker 2: you know. So that's why it's so important to give
Speaker 2: yourself some kindness about that. It's not totally natural to
Speaker 2: be self compassionate. It is a practice you do have
Speaker 2: to learn, and pain will still arise, mistakes will still arise,
Speaker 2: shame will still arise. What you do with self compassion
Speaker 2: practice is you learn not to exacerbate it through harsh
Speaker 2: judgment or taking things personally or running away with the storyline.
Speaker 1: Hey, thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed my
Speaker 1: conversation with Kristen, you may also enjoy a conversation I
Speaker 1: had with a psychology professor, Ethan Cross. The episode is
Speaker 1: called The Science of Our Inner Voice. Ethan and I
Speaker 1: talk about strategies to rein in our mental chatter, like
Speaker 1: that pesky inner voice that tells us we aren't good enough.
Speaker 1: It's a great follow on episode if you're working on
Speaker 1: being kinder to yourself. We'll link to it in the
Speaker 1: show notes, and next week join me for a fun
Speaker 1: episode about turning your passion into a career. We'll share
Speaker 1: the story of a guy named Scott who loves pizza,
Speaker 1: and I mean really loves it. He eventually turned that
Speaker 1: love into a one of a kind pizza tour business.
Speaker 1: Get ready for a law of cheesey pizza funds. Sorry
Speaker 1: in advance, See you next week. A Slight Change of
Speaker 1: Plans is created, written, and executive produced by me Maya Shunker.
Speaker 1: The Slight Change family includes our showrunner Tyler Green, our
Speaker 1: senior editor Kate Parkinson Morgan, our producer Trisha Bobita, and
Speaker 1: our sound engineer Andrew Vestola. Louis Scara wrote our delightful
Speaker 1: theme song, and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A
Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries,
Speaker 1: so big thanks to everyone there, and of course a
Speaker 1: very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow A
Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Shunker.
Speaker 1: See you next week. Do