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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds, and a new Harvard poll puts Trump

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Speaker 1: at a dismal twenty nine percent approval among young voters.

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Speaker 1: We have such a great show for you today. The

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Speaker 1: Lincoln Project's owner Rick Wilson joins us to discuss Trump's

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Speaker 1: indefensible pardons, and we'll talk to Tim wu about his

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Speaker 1: new book, The Age of Extraction, How tech platforms conquered

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Speaker 1: the economy and threaten our future prosperity. But first the news.

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Speaker 2: So, Molly, you may have heard on Sunday news shows

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Speaker 2: Scott Persent loves to talk about how he is a farmer.

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Speaker 2: He's no longer a farmer.

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Speaker 1: Aw what happened?

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Speaker 2: Well, Molly, I don't know if you've heard what This

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Speaker 2: economy is not very good for a soybean farmer like

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Speaker 2: Scott Persent.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so you know what happened.

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Speaker 2: He sells the soybean farm because everybody's getting out of

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Speaker 2: this economy and out of this market because it's about

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Speaker 2: to go very bad from Scott p acent stupid decisions.

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Speaker 1: I'd be real curious to know who he sold it

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Speaker 1: to and how much they overpaid. I could see like

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Speaker 1: Trump World tends to get really good offers for things

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Speaker 1: they're selling, and I just I'm very curious as to why,

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Speaker 1: if that makes any sense, Like why do people love

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Speaker 1: to buy things from Trump World? Why do foreign countries

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Speaker 1: love to give Jared money to invest? Why? I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's just so interesting that these people are making so

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Speaker 1: much money. Now, it's odd.

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Speaker 2: Why Well, if there's one thing, I know, it's really

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Speaker 2: just so sad to me that he's not gonna be

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Speaker 2: able to talk about this on the Sunday shows.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's worth just for a minute pulling back

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Speaker 1: and thinking about Scott Besson, who is now ultimately out

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Speaker 1: there defending some pretty stupid moves that our government has

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Speaker 1: made and trying to make the case that like all

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Speaker 1: of this is on purpose, when in fact it's clearly not.

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Speaker 1: The tariffs are not working. Bessend thinks that if he

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Speaker 1: goes on, you know, if he goes to the Deal

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Speaker 1: Book conference and yells about the New York Times and

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Speaker 1: goes on Morning Joe and yells at the Morning Joe anchors,

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Speaker 1: that this will somehow make Trump happy. And the problem

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Speaker 1: with like having this imperial presidency, which is what we have,

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Speaker 1: this Project twenty twenty five fantasy of conservative think tanks,

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Speaker 1: this presidency that controls all the arms of the federal government.

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Speaker 1: Is that so much of what's happening in the federal

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Speaker 1: government is to please Trump and not to make the

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Speaker 1: economy better or help people or solve problems. Like it's

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Speaker 1: literally just to please one person who happens to be

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Speaker 1: basically a child, and a pretty dysfunctional child. So it's

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Speaker 1: just really such an incredible waste of a federal government

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Speaker 1: to use it all just to make some Orange guy happy.

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Speaker 2: So, speaking of Trump's cabinet of misfit sociopaths, Tom Holman,

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Speaker 2: my least remember, is defending President Trump after he called

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Speaker 2: the Smalley community garbage.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So part of what happens every weekend is that

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Speaker 1: members of Trump World go on television to defend his

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Speaker 1: most indefensible projects. Trump is going after Somali immigrants why

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Speaker 1: because everything else is not working for him? And he

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Speaker 1: remembers that when he ran for president in twenty fifteen,

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Speaker 1: when we were all young, when I was in my thirties,

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Speaker 1: Do you remember your thirties? I remember my thirties when

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Speaker 1: I slept through the night and anyway, in our thirties,

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump came down that elevator and he said, all

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Speaker 1: Mexicans are rapists, and some I assume are good people.

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Speaker 1: And what he did was that he activated a base

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Speaker 1: that had been low frequency, that had felt that they

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Speaker 1: couldn't connect to a mid Romney Republican party because they

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Speaker 1: wanted the red meat of racism. And Donald Trump when

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Speaker 1: he brings up ilhan Omar, he's doing that because he

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Speaker 1: can't get anything else to get his people, except it's

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Speaker 1: a distraction from all of his other problems. And that

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Speaker 1: is why it should not be taken seriously. It should

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Speaker 1: be dismissed and condemned and move on, agreed, and also

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Speaker 1: make every Republican elected defend it because they know it's wrong.

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Speaker 2: The Eric Schmidt quickly discussed later in this episode with

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Speaker 2: Rick was really really telling because he lost his shit

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Speaker 2: that Stephanopoulos asked him more after he tried the normal

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Speaker 2: deflection of I haven't seen the tweets. He loses his

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Speaker 2: shit on him because they can't believe they're ever being

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Speaker 2: held accountable for this, and they're defending the indefensible corruption

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Speaker 2: that we see.

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Speaker 1: Today and good for Stephanopoulos.

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Speaker 2: Agreed, I'll give him a rare W from me.

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Speaker 1: No, he's done a lot of he's done.

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Speaker 2: I agree, Yeah, he's done a lot of good. There's

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Speaker 2: some bones to pick though.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well you're wrong.

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Speaker 2: The Education Department has picked up one of our favorite patterns,

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Speaker 2: molly having to rehire workers that these fucking idiots threw

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Speaker 2: away because they thought that the government most so bloated

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Speaker 2: and then they realized, fuck, we need this to do things.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so look this is again, this keeps happening, This

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Speaker 1: keeps happening. Republicans are like, what does the federal government

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Speaker 1: do anyway, let's disassemble it, you morons. You can't do

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Speaker 1: it this way. The federal government is not moral lago.

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Speaker 1: It's actually not nearly as big as you think it is,

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Speaker 1: and it does a lot of services. So the Education

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Speaker 1: Department has hundreds of fire employees to return temporarily. This

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Speaker 1: is just like doge. This is just like when they

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Speaker 1: fire the people who are, you know, guarding the nukes

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Speaker 1: and then they had to rehire them. This is just

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Speaker 1: what keeps fucking happening. It is absolutely so beyond stupid,

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Speaker 1: and it's like they just keep solving problems they themselves created.

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Speaker 3: Yep, So what are the.

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Speaker 2: More interesting that the Democrats are going to get too,

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Speaker 2: particularly a senator who refused to endorse Zoramumdani and a

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Speaker 2: Congressman who was reluctant to They're really going after Trump

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Speaker 2: for affordability, and now we see the GOP congressmen are

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Speaker 2: cowering from it because they know it's going to work.

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Speaker 1: Trump said this week that affordability was a con job.

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Speaker 1: That he said that on Wednesday, it's a con job.

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Speaker 1: What I think he meant was he can't do anything

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Speaker 1: about inflation. That's what I'm pretty sure he meant. He

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Speaker 1: said affordability is a con job. They have a real

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Speaker 1: problem when it comes to affordability, because inflation is a problem.

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Speaker 1: Republicans are going to be saddled with it. Blaming the

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Speaker 1: president for the economy is what people do. It's a

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Speaker 1: non partisan issue. I don't so I don't know what

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Speaker 1: Trump is thinking. They have And by the way, if

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Speaker 1: you're worried about inflation, just wait because the ACA tax

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Speaker 1: credits are expired and that means everyone tells insurance is

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Speaker 1: about to get way more expensive. And Trump is a

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Speaker 1: real fucking problem here. I don't think there's an easy

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Speaker 1: solve here. And by the way, again, it's this problem,

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Speaker 1: which is that Republicans need to separate themselves from Trump

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Speaker 1: while still not making Trump mad. And like you know,

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Speaker 1: that was hard enough to do with someone like Joe Biden,

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Speaker 1: who supposedly may have given some permission, though I don't

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Speaker 1: necessarily believe that that you could separate yourself, but like

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Speaker 1: Trump will not do that because Trump is a child.

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Speaker 1: So I think that's going to be a real problem

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Speaker 1: for Republicans. Over at our YouTube channel, we have some

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Speaker 1: really exciting stuff. Jesse and I have made a documentary.

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Speaker 1: It's called Project twenty twenty nine, A Reimagining. It's a

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Speaker 1: series about how demic can deliver popular policies when they

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Speaker 1: regain power. The first episode is up now. It's the

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Speaker 1: first part of the series, and we're going to examine

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Speaker 1: what went wrong with some of the Biden administration's approach

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Speaker 1: to policies that may have prevented Democrats from being able

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Speaker 1: to deliver the broad anti corruption legislation that needed to happen,

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Speaker 1: and by the way, that would have prevented some of

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Speaker 1: the corruption we're seeing right now. The first episode dives

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Speaker 1: deep into the first step of fixing American politics. It

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Speaker 1: may sound unsexy, but it's a big, important issue, and

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Speaker 1: that big subject is campaign finance reform. For this episode,

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Speaker 1: we talk to some of the smartest people we know,

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Speaker 1: professors and academics, people like Lawrence Lessig, Tiffany Muller, Michael Waldman,

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Speaker 1: and Tom Moore. Republicans were prepared for when they got

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Speaker 1: the levers of power. Democrats need that same kind of preparation.

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Speaker 1: That's why we need to start the conversation on how

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Speaker 1: Democrats can do the same thing. So please head over

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Speaker 1: to our YouTube channel and search Molly Jong Fast Project

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty nine or go to the Fast Politics YouTube

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Speaker 1: channel page and you'll find it there and help us

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Speaker 1: spread the word and stay tuned for more episodes. Rick

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Speaker 1: Wilson is the founder of Lincoln Project and the host

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Speaker 1: of the Enemy's List.

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Speaker 4: Rick Wilson Molli Jong Fast with your cute pets in hand.

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Speaker 1: I have a little hairless dog on my lap, and

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Speaker 1: we're here to talk about how things are going. And

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Speaker 1: in case you're wondering, this week, Donald Trump pardoned a Democrat.

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Speaker 1: A Democrat Congressman Henry Kuehlar yep of the Rio Grande

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Speaker 1: Valley and R Plus. He's like a mansion character, right,

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Speaker 1: a Joe Manchin. He's from a district that a Democrat

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Speaker 1: would not win. Correct he pardoned him. Who knows why?

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Speaker 1: Maybe because he just loves freedom or he considers white

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Speaker 1: collar crimes to not actually be crimes. That's my theory.

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Speaker 4: That is, I think that theory's got a lot of weight.

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Speaker 1: He pardons him. Quahlar then immediately registers to run again

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Speaker 1: as a Democrat. Chef's kiss, Baby, Chef's kiss.

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Speaker 4: You know, this is one of the things, Molly that

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Speaker 4: I find fascinating about pardon palooza. So we're killing people

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Speaker 4: in speed boats down in Verslila and in the Pacific.

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Speaker 1: That's because they might have drugs. So they also might

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Speaker 1: have fished.

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Speaker 4: They hypothetically might have conceivably had drugs, but they weren't

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Speaker 4: going to the US. They were going to Surinam. But

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Speaker 4: you know, we might kill him anyway.

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Speaker 1: We plan got a distretch from the Ebstein files.

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Speaker 4: Yep, we pardon the president of Honduras, who is serving

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Speaker 4: federal time for engaging in massive cocaine smuggling and ventnol

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Speaker 4: smuggling into America because Roger Stone, that degenerate fop weirdo

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Speaker 4: miracle of phrenology, takes Trump a letter that he clearly

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Speaker 4: wrote like Imperial Lord Trump, I love the he Pardons

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Speaker 4: Chuair for whatever reason. I don't know if somebody said, hey,

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Speaker 4: maybe he'll switch or maybe we've got a deal, and

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Speaker 4: then turned around and screwed them. But if he did

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Speaker 4: turn around and screw them, I salute him for that,

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Speaker 4: honestly mad props game nos game brother.

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Speaker 1: Well you know who doesn't salute him me? Do you

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Speaker 1: know who is not happy with this development?

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Speaker 4: Donald John Trump?

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Speaker 1: He had a truth today which was then, you know

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Speaker 1: it's an important truth because Rapid Response forty seven then

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Speaker 1: tweeted it so we could happen.

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Speaker 4: Rapid Response forty seven in cell weirdo, who's taking doing

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Speaker 4: that from curating his anime doll collection.

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Speaker 1: He is real mad. And there are a lot of

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Speaker 1: words that are capitalized in this very long capitalized but

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Speaker 1: I'm going to read you sort of the the highlights.

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Speaker 1: Will you were treated so badly? Explanation point. I signed

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Speaker 1: the papers and said to the people in the Oval

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Speaker 1: office that I did a very good job saving things God,

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Speaker 1: was he happy that day? Then it happened explanation point.

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Speaker 1: Explanation point. Only a short time after signing the pardon,

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Speaker 1: Congressman Henrykiler announced that he will be running for Congress.

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Speaker 1: He puts running in quotes in the great State of

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Speaker 1: Texas as a Democrat.

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Speaker 4: Donald's mad.

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Speaker 1: Now, such a lack of loyalty. Explanation point. Oh well,

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Speaker 1: next time, no more, mister night Sky. Explanation point. And

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Speaker 1: it's signed President Donald J. Trump.

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Speaker 4: No, thank you for your attention to this matter.

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Speaker 3: That would have been it official.

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Speaker 1: I do enjoy a thank you for your attention to

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Speaker 1: this matter. But I think that the point here is

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Speaker 1: that my man is a mobster.

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Speaker 4: And so I guess the correct analysis of Donald Trump

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Speaker 4: is that he is a crime boss. Yeah, there's no

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Speaker 4: alternate analysis of it. There's no there's no secondary analysis

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Speaker 4: of it. Everything he does is motivated by graft and

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Speaker 4: greed and scamming and making money.

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Speaker 1: It's quid pro it's quid pro.

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Speaker 4: Do, it's you know, the whole thing is the guy

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Speaker 4: is just absolutely yo. Quid pro yo works too, But

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Speaker 4: the whole thing is just absolutely flagrantly corrupt at every turn.

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Speaker 4: And there's nothing about this raft of pardons he's been

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Speaker 4: doing that in any way has anything to do with justice.

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Speaker 4: They're all criminals. I mean, he's partnering all these cyber

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Speaker 4: bros who were literally in business with his sons.

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Speaker 1: There's a graph that shows that Donald Trump has partnered

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Speaker 1: more than a thousand people. This is like about ten times.

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Speaker 4: Well, it's like sixteen hundred if you count.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so if you count to January, sixth rioters, which

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Speaker 1: is hundreds of people that he also partned. I think

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Speaker 1: there are a number of important reasons to talk about

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Speaker 1: pardon Beluza, but the biggest of which is that he

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Speaker 1: is clearly running some kind of situation here where he's

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Speaker 1: partning people.

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Speaker 4: Listen, they were doing it in the last in the

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Speaker 4: end of the last administration into the last Trump administration,

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Speaker 4: where Matt Slapp and Rogerstone are all these other guys

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Speaker 4: and Gates were going to Trump and getting these pardons

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Speaker 4: for people, and there was reporting at the time that

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Speaker 4: cash was changing hands, and I nothing would surprise me

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Speaker 4: less than this being a pay to play.

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Speaker 1: Jesse has brought up a really important point, and then

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Speaker 1: I want to talk about the problem Republicans find themselves

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Speaker 1: in which I think you'll appreciate. Jesse has a quote

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Speaker 1: from George Stefanopolos. He is interviewing Eric Schmidt. You may

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Speaker 1: remember Eric Schmidt. He is the senator from Missourra, Missura. Yep,

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Speaker 1: he says Stephanoppolos, and I think this is really the

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Speaker 1: thing that everyone needs to ask Republican senators. And I

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Speaker 1: think it gets me to another thing I want to

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Speaker 1: talk about, which is Stephanoppolos says, do you support this

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Speaker 1: pardon of the former Hondurian Hondoran president? And the senator says,

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Speaker 1: I'm not familiar.

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Speaker 4: This is the twenty twenty five equivalent of I didn't

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Speaker 4: read the tweet. Remember in the first administration, that was

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Speaker 4: always well, I didn't see the tweet. Whenever Trump would

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Speaker 4: say something horrible or racist or insane, I didn't see

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Speaker 4: the tweet. Now it's I'm not familiar with the details

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Speaker 4: of that case. The Senate in particular has been an

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Speaker 4: embarrassment about holding Trump to account because they have a

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Speaker 4: relatively greater amount of political power to do so. The

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Speaker 4: House is just, you know, the House is what it is.

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Speaker 4: I do find it kind of amazing that even somebody

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Speaker 4: as dull witted as Eric Schmidt thinks he can get

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Speaker 4: away and fool people that this is somehow not missed

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Speaker 4: it lavish corruption that he's completely aware about.

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Speaker 1: Now, I'm going to take you somewhere with this because

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Speaker 1: I think it's really important going on an event. We're

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Speaker 1: going on an Inventor. We see Republicans unable to separate

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Speaker 1: themselves from Trump because they're scared of Trump. But as

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Speaker 1: Trump gets to be more and more kryptonite, they find

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Speaker 1: themselves in a problem. And I'd love you to talk

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Speaker 1: about that because, like I feel like we see people

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Speaker 1: illustrate this. Like here's Stephonic fighting with Mike Johnson, obviously

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Speaker 1: trying to show that she's like could be a normal

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Speaker 1: bluestate Republican. Right, talk us through what's happening here.

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Speaker 4: Look to bifurcate that question. Let me do at least

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Speaker 4: really quickly. She is going to desperately try to be again.

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Speaker 4: She's going to try to reclaim her normy kred. Watch

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Speaker 4: what happens. She'll be all of a sudden back like oh,

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Speaker 4: I was at the Harvard Institute of Politics. I have

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Speaker 4: mem Romney, I work for George Book. You watch what

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Speaker 4: she does. It will not work. Kathy Hockel may not

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Speaker 4: be a the you know, America's favorite governor or New

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Speaker 4: York's favorite governor. But if it's twice beeing Kathy Hockel

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Speaker 4: and elis staphonic. The Gretchen Wieners of American politics, at

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Speaker 4: least define is going to get blown out. She cannot

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Speaker 4: move to the center. There's no getting there. The video

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Speaker 4: of her talking about Trump over and over and over

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Speaker 4: and over again, it's the quotes that launched ten thousand ads.

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Speaker 4: As for the rest of these guys, there was a

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Speaker 4: stat out the other day about the twenty six districts

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Speaker 4: where they are the most vulnerable Republicans and of those

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Speaker 4: twenty six, twenty one of them vote with Trump one

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Speaker 4: hundred percent of the time. That is psychotic, that is

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Speaker 4: not that doesn't happen. Ever, Barack Obama didn't have Democrats

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Speaker 4: vot with him one hundred percent of the time. Well,

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Speaker 4: Clinton didn't have Democrats voting with him shit sixty percent

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Speaker 4: of the time. This is insane. It is not a

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Speaker 4: sign of a strong party. It's a sign of a brittle,

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Speaker 4: weak party that is so afraid of losing a primary.

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Speaker 4: Because Trump has a mean tweet about them, that they're

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Speaker 4: going to strap themselves to the sky and they're going

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Speaker 4: to ride the burning wreckage all the way down. They

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Speaker 4: can't get away from him. And if they break from him, remember.

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Speaker 1: Take him down.

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Speaker 4: There's nothing Trump hates more. Trump doesn't even hate Democrats.

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Speaker 4: There's nothing he hates more than a Republican who doesn't

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Speaker 4: obey him.

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Speaker 1: Is that true? Rick, tell me more? No, fail, you're

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Speaker 1: speaking from personal experience here.

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Speaker 4: I am, indeed, but this is a long running pattern

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Speaker 4: with Trump. He has more hostility toward apostate Republicans or

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Speaker 4: anyone who would dream of opposing him from his own party,

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Speaker 4: than he does for the most liberal Democrats. You know,

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Speaker 4: In fact, you saw this with the mondami on Donnie Trump,

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Speaker 4: you know, sat there feeling weirdly conflicted about Mondamie in

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Speaker 4: the Oval office because he likes game, game, knows game.

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Speaker 4: But he with Republicans. His favorite hobby is to humiliate

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Speaker 4: the ones that kiss his ass and then deviate even

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Speaker 4: in the slightest little bit. That's why he's going after,

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Speaker 4: you know, not only the mtgs, but he'll start going

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Speaker 4: after these other people and their consultants. I know this

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Speaker 4: for a fact. I spoke to a Republican polster who

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Speaker 4: handle's House and Senate and governor's races about ten days

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Speaker 4: ago now most just after Thanksgiving, so call it ten

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Speaker 4: days ago, who told me, Yeah, we're trying to find

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Speaker 4: a way. We're trying to find something to split off

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Speaker 4: on that they won't kill us over. And it's really hard.

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Speaker 1: And here's the problem is as Trump does less and less, well,

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Speaker 1: like you need him to turn out low frequency voters

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Speaker 1: because he's alienating the indies.

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Speaker 4: Right, the Independents are now basically fifty to twenty against Trump.

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Speaker 4: So that's insane, by the.

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Speaker 1: Way, right, So you're alienating the indies. Dems are not

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Speaker 1: going to vote for you. You're splitting apart Republicans and

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Speaker 1: that See, that's one of the other things I want

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Speaker 1: to talk about because I think the reason Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: went after ilhan Omar this weekend that was another thing

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Speaker 1: you did, was because he cannot get any traction on anything,

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Speaker 1: so he things back to the base.

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Speaker 4: I thing it's working for him, Molly nothing, I mean

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Speaker 4: everything he has tried in the last I mean real talk,

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Speaker 4: since Epstein, since since since Pam Bondi gave that statement,

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Speaker 4: we're not going to release anything, and there's no there

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Speaker 4: there blah blah blah. Nothing Trump has done since that

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Speaker 4: point has lasted more than about three or four days. Now.

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Speaker 4: Sometimes he'll get a story tear down the White House

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Speaker 4: East Wing the last three or four days. Sometimes you'll

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Speaker 4: get a story like the like the last week on

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Speaker 4: Ukraine stuff, three or four days, two or three days.

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Speaker 4: But nothing changes the subject forever. Like it used to

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Speaker 4: the center of gravity with Trump. He used to blow

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Speaker 4: up the media cycle and then the next center of

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Speaker 4: gravity was whatever the next media cycle was for him,

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Speaker 4: whatever he blew up next. But now he blows up

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Speaker 4: the media cycle. Then it's back to Epstein.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: They used to say he was the assignment editor. Remember that,

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, for sure, for sure.

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Speaker 4: And look, I do think to get back to these

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Speaker 4: Republican candidates, all of them know what's happening. Their consultants

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Speaker 4: right now are are looking for the timing of when

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Speaker 4: they break with Trump and hoping it won't kill off

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Speaker 4: turnout when they break with Trump. And so we're going

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Speaker 4: to see a lot of these guys after their primaries

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Speaker 4: are over in the spring or early summer, say, man,

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Speaker 4: I really wish the president would do something different on

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Speaker 4: tariffs because they won't be murdered at that point. But

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Speaker 4: it's going to be too late.

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Speaker 1: It's a Tom Tillis thing, right. We see Tom Tilli's

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Speaker 1: breaking with Trump because he's not running again. We see,

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Speaker 1: you know. But I want to go to why we

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Speaker 1: can keep going back to Epstein, because I have a

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Speaker 1: theory and I want to talk to you about it.

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Speaker 1: The reason that we keep going back to Epstein is

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Speaker 1: because the Democrat, the ranking member of Oversight, keeps releasing

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Speaker 1: stuff Epstein, and he keeps releasing stuff about Epstein because

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Speaker 1: he's a young guy, right, He's a young, competent guy.

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Speaker 1: His name is Robert Garcia. I talk about him a lot.

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Speaker 1: I talk about oversight a lot because when you're not

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Speaker 1: in power, you have very few things you can do.

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Speaker 1: And one of the very few things that Democrats can

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Speaker 1: do right now is message Epstein. Oversight has this power

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Speaker 1: to subpoena. They subpoena the estate. If Jerry Connolly, we're

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Speaker 1: still the head of Oversight.

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Speaker 4: Don't even start, it would be a disaster.

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Speaker 1: He died because Democratic leadership was scared to tell him

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Speaker 1: he couldn't have the job, so they gave him the job,

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Speaker 1: even though he was sick and he was having treatment

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Speaker 1: for cancer and was in his late seventies. He died

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Speaker 1: and Garcia's at the job.

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Speaker 4: This is the classic crisis management problem.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 4: I've helped corporate clients, political clients for thirty years deal

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Speaker 4: with crises, and when you're in it on your own,

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Speaker 4: it's never as easy as it looks on the outside.

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Speaker 4: But there are rules every time in a crisis management situation.

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Speaker 4: Get the truth out, no matter how much it hurts

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Speaker 4: in the short term. Drip drip, drip is always worse

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Speaker 4: for you in the end than one big reveal. The

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Speaker 4: second part of it is go out and say what

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Speaker 4: you're going to do to reform yourself and your process

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Speaker 4: and your company. Trump can't release this stuff for a

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Speaker 4: host of reasons, both about himself and about some of

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Speaker 4: his donors, and about people he likes, and about people in.

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Speaker 1: The corporate world.

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Speaker 4: And he can't reform himself. He doesn't care about human trafficking.

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Speaker 4: He doesn't care to happen to the victims of Epstein

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Speaker 4: and Maxwell. And the final part of any crisis like

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Speaker 4: this is you have to learn from You have to

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Speaker 4: behave in a different way in the future. You can't

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Speaker 4: just say we're going to reform in this way. You

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Speaker 4: have to show, you have to walk the walk, and

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Speaker 4: he can never do that. He is He is an old, sick,

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Speaker 4: cruel guy with a lifelong history of abusing women in

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Speaker 4: various capacities and manners, much of which we know about

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Speaker 4: from the legal record, much of what you know about

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Speaker 4: from the from the divorce record, from the social record,

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Speaker 4: from this, from from his long behavioral pattern. He even

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Speaker 4: if he was still healthy, he couldn't change. And now

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Speaker 4: they're stuck with him, and they're stuck with this. Republicans

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Speaker 4: own this crisis.

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Speaker 1: So Marjorie Taylor Green says that she talks to Donald Trump,

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Speaker 1: and Donald Trump says, you don't want the Epstein files

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Speaker 1: released because it's going to hurt a lot of people

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Speaker 1: who cares, but also who he's going too hard.

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00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 3: Yeah.

434
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:53,879
Speaker 4: There, answer is it's going to hurt people that Trump

435
00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:57,720
Speaker 4: has political and financial relationships with. We know some of

436
00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:00,760
Speaker 4: the tick tick tick on. This will end up implicating

437
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:04,960
Speaker 4: people that are in business and politics and media, and

438
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:08,600
Speaker 4: it's going to burn some people to the ground that

439
00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:15,280
Speaker 4: he likes. It's going to hurt him, right, I mean criminal, Well,

440
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:18,560
Speaker 4: probably a more criminal exposure than he does, right for sure.

441
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:21,200
Speaker 1: And they're Republican donors and some of them may even

442
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:25,600
Speaker 1: be Democratic donors. And honestly, who cares because getting after

443
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:30,840
Speaker 1: people who do SAZ child sex trafficking is a nonpartisan activity.

444
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:34,199
Speaker 4: Yeah, and listen, I will say this, I have you know,

445
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:36,840
Speaker 4: I'm I'm when when Democrats screw up, I will tell

446
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:39,000
Speaker 4: them they're screwing up. But they have been very good

447
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:41,960
Speaker 4: about this about saying let the chips fall where they may,

448
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:45,560
Speaker 4: let it roll. I don't see Democrats out there saying, well,

449
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:48,080
Speaker 4: we want to we don't want to hurt anybody on arm.

450
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:51,440
Speaker 4: They don't they're doing The Democrats are doing the correct

451
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:55,000
Speaker 4: thing here by saying fuck it if Bill Clinton's in

452
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:58,720
Speaker 4: the file, Bill Clinton's in the file, Oh well yeah,

453
00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:02,360
Speaker 4: And that's the right way to approach it. But Trump

454
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:05,280
Speaker 4: clearly is picking and choosing. Now, I want to ask

455
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:07,200
Speaker 4: you a question because I had somebody that they asked

456
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:08,640
Speaker 4: me a friend of mine. I said to me, he goes,

457
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:11,000
Speaker 4: do you think Trump is going through this material and

458
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 4: going to some of these corporate people that are in

459
00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:14,600
Speaker 4: there and basically blackmailing them?

460
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:15,120
Speaker 3: I don't.

461
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:17,679
Speaker 1: It really shocked me.

462
00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:19,840
Speaker 4: I don't have any evidence of that, but I wanted

463
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:21,760
Speaker 4: to get your thought on that, because, I mean, if

464
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:24,080
Speaker 4: he had the files in front of him, Trump.

465
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:28,680
Speaker 1: Is never doing three dimensional chess no, so it's hard

466
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:32,040
Speaker 1: for me to imagine that he's doing something like that, Like, sure,

467
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 1: would that make sense? Absolutely? Do I think he's doing it?

468
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 1: Probably not. I just think he's not that organized. I

469
00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 1: think like largely what this crew does is try to

470
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:47,960
Speaker 1: is just like react to problems, right. I don't you know, like,

471
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:51,320
Speaker 1: do I think he's not firing people because it was

472
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:54,520
Speaker 1: why he had so many leaks the first time around? Yes?

473
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:58,240
Speaker 1: Do I think he liked gave Heggs at that job

474
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:00,680
Speaker 1: because he liked the way he looked on television? And yes,

475
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:05,400
Speaker 1: do I think that E's Like No, I think they

476
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:07,560
Speaker 1: you know, they have it somewhere. They're like, we're never

477
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,160
Speaker 1: releasing it. I mean, look, I have a very smart

478
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:12,800
Speaker 1: straight journalist friend who said they're gonna just release and

479
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:15,919
Speaker 1: release and release, but only stuff on Democrats, right, But

480
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:18,040
Speaker 1: I don't actually think so. I think they're just going

481
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:19,840
Speaker 1: to try not to release any of it for as

482
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:20,640
Speaker 1: long as they can.

483
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:24,359
Speaker 4: I think I think this the stonewall tactic is going

484
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:27,720
Speaker 4: to last through the election, then they're gonna and I.

485
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:30,159
Speaker 1: Think they're just gonna be like sue Us. I just

486
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:32,679
Speaker 1: think they're gonna be like sue Us, fuck you. Like

487
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:36,399
Speaker 1: that's the thing. It's like Trump is not putin. There's

488
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:39,640
Speaker 1: like a temptation. Like I was thinking about this because

489
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 1: I was thinking, like when they went after Komi, I

490
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:47,520
Speaker 1: was thinking, like they're gonna just create some crimes, like

491
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 1: the way Russia does. You know, they're gonna like put

492
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:52,800
Speaker 1: something on his hard drive and be like you did this.

493
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:56,479
Speaker 1: They're not smart like that whatever. For whatever reason, they're not,

494
00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:58,639
Speaker 1: so they don't do stuff like that. They just are like,

495
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,000
Speaker 1: we're gonna go after him for long to the FBI

496
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:04,000
Speaker 1: because he said because of Eli and it's like such

497
00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 1: a convoluted thing that you can't so so I don't

498
00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:09,679
Speaker 1: think that. And I mean, like a great example is

499
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:12,359
Speaker 1: last week when they were trying to get this indictment

500
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:14,720
Speaker 1: and they just couldn't get the indictment on Tiss James

501
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,240
Speaker 1: because they just didn't have anything and they kept trying.

502
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:19,880
Speaker 1: You know, they're just not so good. I mean, thank god,

503
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:20,800
Speaker 1: they're not so good at that.

504
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:22,199
Speaker 4: I was just gonna say that we should all be

505
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:25,040
Speaker 4: relieved by that knowledge. And and we you know, and

506
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:27,399
Speaker 4: if you're on the victim list, if you're if you're

507
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:31,120
Speaker 4: on the Epstein victim list, those people really want answers,

508
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,320
Speaker 4: they want more stuff, release, they want accountability. And it

509
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 4: just goes back again. Anytime these people in Trump universe

510
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 4: say it's all about the children and we're protecting victims

511
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 4: from traffickers, it's all a lie.

512
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's never ever, ever about the children.

513
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:52,120
Speaker 4: No, no, it really never is, never is.

514
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 1: Thank you, Rick Wilson.

515
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:56,760
Speaker 4: You are as always welcome. I look forward to seeing

516
00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:59,600
Speaker 4: you next week.

517
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,360
Speaker 1: Tim Wu is a former Special Assistant to the President

518
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 1: and a professor of law at Columbia University and the

519
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:14,360
Speaker 1: author of the Age of Extraction, How tech platforms conquered

520
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:20,080
Speaker 1: the economy and threaten our future prosperity. Welcome to past politics, Tim,

521
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:21,800
Speaker 1: it's great to be here. We're just going to start

522
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 1: went wrong with the Internet.

523
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:25,920
Speaker 3: That's a good question.

524
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 5: Basically, we thought that we could trust everybody that they

525
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 5: were going to help make everybody rich, and instead they

526
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:35,760
Speaker 5: made themselves rich. The owners and founders of the big

527
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:39,840
Speaker 5: platforms I think basically go back the nineties that was

528
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 5: the promise. It was going to be like this technology

529
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 5: that empowered everyone, made ever pretty rich, to everything for everybody.

530
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:49,720
Speaker 3: But it ended up making a very narrow group rich.

531
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 1: That's all went wrong. A senator who is now very

532
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:55,520
Speaker 1: mad at me I was once at his book party

533
00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 1: and he said, there is no fact checking on the internet.

534
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 3: I think that we thought that was going to be

535
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 3: a good thing.

536
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 5: I mean a lot of my new book, Age of Extraction,

537
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,480
Speaker 5: is about like the promises of the nineties, early thousands,

538
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:09,320
Speaker 5: the dream, you know.

539
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 3: To blame us a little.

540
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 5: Bit, I think we believe that if everyone could sort

541
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 5: of have a soapbox and say whatever they wanted all

542
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 5: the time, that like something beautiful would come out of

543
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:21,120
Speaker 5: that and pure. And I guess something could come out

544
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 5: of it, but I'd to have trouble describing it as beautiful,

545
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:26,240
Speaker 5: pure creature of innocence.

546
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 1: In any which way. So let's talk about where we

547
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:31,760
Speaker 1: are right now. Because I used to spend all my

548
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 1: time worrying about AI, but I've now focused back to

549
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:39,600
Speaker 1: just worrying about how America survives having no local reporting,

550
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 1: which is another favorite worry of mine. There is clearly

551
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 1: a problem. They cannot be solved with substack, cannot be

552
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:52,600
Speaker 1: solved with X, cannot be solved with blue sky, which

553
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 1: is reporting is the only way we know to keep

554
00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:01,479
Speaker 1: power and check. We are in a reported catastrophe at

555
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 1: this moment, right The people who have the money to

556
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:07,280
Speaker 1: pay for the reporting, you know, the elon must of

557
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:11,280
Speaker 1: the world, are not very interested in accountability. So is

558
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 1: this it for the fall of the Roman Empire? I mean,

559
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:16,240
Speaker 1: is there a way to reverse this trajectory?

560
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 3: There is?

561
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:19,480
Speaker 5: I mean, I think there's a tony of money in

562
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:21,680
Speaker 5: the system. It just goes in all the wrong places,

563
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 5: if that makes sense. Yeah, Like I was one of

564
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 5: the chapters in my new book, I talk about this

565
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:29,040
Speaker 5: one product of Amazon's, you know, the when you search

566
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:31,600
Speaker 5: on Amazon for like any old product and you get

567
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 5: those weird sponsored results and like you can't really figure

568
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:35,320
Speaker 5: out what you really want.

569
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:37,000
Speaker 3: Well, just from that.

570
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 5: Little little gimmick, Amazon makes fifty six billion dollars last year,

571
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:45,120
Speaker 5: which is more than double of all the newspaper income

572
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:47,720
Speaker 5: of every newspaper on the planet Earth. So in a way,

573
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 5: you could have like that little thing, or you could

574
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 5: triple the number of newspapers not in the United States,

575
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:56,240
Speaker 5: in the world and like somehow we just accepted the

576
00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 5: idea that there's the enormous extraction platforms. They don't pay

577
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:02,880
Speaker 5: any tax, they don't support anything. They occasionally buy something,

578
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:05,160
Speaker 5: you know, like Bezos bought the Post, I guess.

579
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 1: And now he's killing it because foam parties. I mean,

580
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:10,680
Speaker 1: he just lost interest in democracy.

581
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 3: Yeah.

582
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:13,480
Speaker 5: Oh, they just turned it into a platform. I mean,

583
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:16,000
Speaker 5: at some point there was this whole like, let's not

584
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:19,239
Speaker 5: be mister nice guy anymore. Let's just like turn this

585
00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 5: newspaper into my mouthpiece, or let's I mean the case.

586
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:25,560
Speaker 5: I guess Elon Musk was the first with buying Twitter

587
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 5: and just saying, all right, this is going to be

588
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:31,000
Speaker 5: my personal thing to make conspiracy theories mainstream. So there's

589
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 5: a huge amount of money in the system. Like that's

590
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 5: the craziest thing. We are living in a period where

591
00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:38,200
Speaker 5: there's just tons of money. There's lots of it's all

592
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:41,240
Speaker 5: all there, but we don't tax it. It like occasionally

593
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 5: gets given to charity, or it gets used for pet

594
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 5: projects and to make people really wealthy. So there is

595
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:49,120
Speaker 5: way more than enough money support any of the kind

596
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:52,280
Speaker 5: of broadcasting anything you could want. He was a number

597
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:54,200
Speaker 5: of systems you could choose. You could be more like

598
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 5: the Germans, like the British, like anything, but somehow we're

599
00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:57,960
Speaker 5: doing none of it.

600
00:32:58,200 --> 00:32:59,960
Speaker 1: So tell me how we fix the Internet.

601
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:00,960
Speaker 3: Good question.

602
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:03,720
Speaker 5: I think we have to decide that some of the

603
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 5: big platforms are like utilities in our time and they

604
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 5: get to take some money.

605
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:08,760
Speaker 3: But no more.

606
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:11,960
Speaker 1: You want to socialize the platforms. No, that was a

607
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 1: little mean. What I mean is you want some government

608
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:18,080
Speaker 1: involvement with platform private public kind of situation.

609
00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:21,280
Speaker 3: Well, no, I want to control them like utilities.

610
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 5: I don't think government would like necessarily run like Amazon

611
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 5: that well you know, we end up more like post office.

612
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:30,240
Speaker 5: But I do think they should limit how much Amazon takes,

613
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:32,720
Speaker 5: like just say like, okay, you get thirty percent, like

614
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:35,640
Speaker 5: the electric company. We don't say lectric company, Okay, you

615
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:37,600
Speaker 5: know you have a great product, charge whatever the hell

616
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:37,960
Speaker 5: you want.

617
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 3: It's like there's some kind of limits.

618
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:41,000
Speaker 5: So I think we need to find the places that

619
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 5: they're like utilities and say that's how much money you get.

620
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 3: No more so that the rest of us, and I

621
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:47,000
Speaker 3: think they should pay some taxes.

622
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:49,800
Speaker 1: Give me this sort of broad sweep of why you

623
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:52,120
Speaker 1: are the person to make this case?

624
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:56,720
Speaker 5: Okay, So I worked in Silicon Valley back. I guess

625
00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 5: in the dot com era, that actually created a certain

626
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 5: level of of distrust of the place. Give me why,

627
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 5: I think because everyone needs to be a multimillionaire and billionaire,

628
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:10,800
Speaker 5: even though they also talk about wanting to help the public.

629
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:12,960
Speaker 5: So in other words, I feel like there was a

630
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:16,280
Speaker 5: lot of I guess immaturity in the sense of, Okay,

631
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 5: we need to help everybody do this, run this thing

632
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 5: like a charity.

633
00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:20,240
Speaker 3: I'm thinking of early Google.

634
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:22,120
Speaker 5: But we got to make huge amounts of money too,

635
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:24,560
Speaker 5: and like these things are never going to conflict with

636
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:26,840
Speaker 5: each other. It's like, you know, twenty year old logic.

637
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:28,279
Speaker 5: When do you think you can stay up all night

638
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:30,400
Speaker 5: and then also like be fine the next day. It

639
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 5: has a lot of that kind of thing.

640
00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:32,799
Speaker 1: They're hypocrites too.

641
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 5: When I worked, there was a fair amount of just

642
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:39,280
Speaker 5: straight out lying, which I found difficult about our products.

643
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:42,279
Speaker 5: It was sort of more normalized and yeah, so that

644
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:45,319
Speaker 5: made me more cynical. I mean, I think back then

645
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:47,279
Speaker 5: I was still much more believer than I am now.

646
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:49,640
Speaker 5: I think it's when they just got big that I

647
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:52,360
Speaker 5: started to lose faith. I worked there, I've worked in

648
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,719
Speaker 5: the federal government for the Supreme Court. I worked for

649
00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:59,480
Speaker 5: the White House twice, Obama and Biden and Festerer Columbia

650
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:02,520
Speaker 5: and I have basically tried to reboot the anti monopoly

651
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:05,760
Speaker 5: movement with like Lena Khan and a few others Jonathan

652
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:07,600
Speaker 5: Caanter have been trying to reboot anti monopoly.

653
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:08,239
Speaker 3: That's the other thing.

654
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:09,799
Speaker 5: I think we got to break these guys up, Like

655
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:13,160
Speaker 5: it's absurd just to have this level of monopoly extraction

656
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:15,280
Speaker 5: from a country that claims to be free.

657
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:19,239
Speaker 1: Well what that look like, because we talk about brigant monopolies,

658
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:22,640
Speaker 1: but just like nuts and balts, give me an example

659
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:24,239
Speaker 1: of what that would look like and how you would

660
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 1: do it.

661
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:27,640
Speaker 3: I mean a good example. Ship has saled a little

662
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:28,000
Speaker 3: bit of this.

663
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:30,560
Speaker 5: But you know the fact that Google not only a

664
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 5: search engine but then also owns like the browser, the

665
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 5: main browser also is trying to dominate AI.

666
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:37,880
Speaker 3: You know.

667
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:39,800
Speaker 5: I just think it should be a bunch of different units.

668
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 5: I think Amazon should be a marketplace. It's an amazing marketplace,

669
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:47,719
Speaker 5: but shouldn't be selling in competition with its own you know,

670
00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:50,640
Speaker 5: its own sellers. So you would sort of ban Amazon

671
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:54,239
Speaker 5: Amazon sales, Facebook, you would spin off WhatsApp and Instagram

672
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:55,640
Speaker 5: and make those separate companies.

673
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:59,080
Speaker 3: It just have more like, you know, more separation. Competition, Yeah,

674
00:35:59,160 --> 00:35:59,720
Speaker 3: more competition.

675
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 5: It's kind of crazy that there are just really three

676
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:04,960
Speaker 5: or four giant companies who all kind of think the

677
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:05,480
Speaker 5: same way.

678
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:07,680
Speaker 3: And it's really kind of not the American way. I'll

679
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:08,279
Speaker 3: put it that way.

680
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:11,080
Speaker 1: What would you do about Section two thirty? I need

681
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:14,120
Speaker 1: you to explain to our listeners. Just give us what

682
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:18,160
Speaker 1: it is, how it's used, and how it could imagining

683
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:19,200
Speaker 1: it as something better.

684
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:20,080
Speaker 3: All right.

685
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:23,400
Speaker 5: So Section two thirty was passed in the nineties to

686
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:27,279
Speaker 5: be kind of a shield or an immunity for what

687
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:30,719
Speaker 5: were then tiny little tech companies who were struggling and

688
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 5: threatened by the possibility of being sued for things. And

689
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 5: the idea was, for example, you know back then, demone,

690
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 5: do you remember AOL?

691
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 3: Is that like?

692
00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:43,320
Speaker 1: No, of course I remember. I mean I am that ault.

693
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:47,640
Speaker 5: So AOL like had millions of chat rooms and invariably

694
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:51,960
Speaker 5: there was like crazy things being said, and the idea was, well,

695
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:55,880
Speaker 5: if AOL is responresponsible every single thing that someone says

696
00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:58,600
Speaker 5: in any single chat room, like, the whole Internet will collapse.

697
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:01,560
Speaker 5: And so all and a bunch of other people lobby,

698
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:03,000
Speaker 5: and they say, okay, we're going to get a blanket

699
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 5: immunity to like most state laws for defamation and you know,

700
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:08,880
Speaker 5: anything else we do wrong, we're kind of going to

701
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:11,000
Speaker 5: be immune. So they have this sort of special immunity.

702
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:14,239
Speaker 5: I will note that like newspapers radio shows do not

703
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:16,440
Speaker 5: have it. Like if a newspaper says so and so

704
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:20,800
Speaker 5: is a criminal beats his wife something like that, that's defamation,

705
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:24,000
Speaker 5: has a dread disease, whatever. But they've been kind of immune.

706
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:25,799
Speaker 5: So I think that was okay in the early days

707
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:28,440
Speaker 5: they were tiny, but more and more the tech companies

708
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:32,240
Speaker 5: are kind of deciding what you should see. Like they're big.

709
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 5: They are in the game of presenting information. They become

710
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:37,480
Speaker 5: part of the media, but they have none of the

711
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 5: media's duties. I guess the idea is, you know, I

712
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:41,920
Speaker 5: think it's pretty simple. It's like, okay, if you're going

713
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:43,880
Speaker 5: to be AOL, fine, But if you're going to be

714
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:46,799
Speaker 5: like YouTube and you're feeding people a steady diet of

715
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:50,239
Speaker 5: like hate crimes and insanity and then they go off

716
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:52,800
Speaker 5: and do something, or if you like Eric exposing children

717
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 5: to like suicide videos, and you're like, I'm sorry, I

718
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:57,680
Speaker 5: guess and you're the one who sent it at them,

719
00:37:58,040 --> 00:37:58,439
Speaker 5: and then.

720
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:01,160
Speaker 3: You're like, oh, you know, well, the Internet's crazy place.

721
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:01,719
Speaker 3: Sorry about that.

722
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:06,719
Speaker 5: I don't think that goes anymore. So the overarging principle

723
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:08,719
Speaker 5: is like, we're not asking for a lot. I mean,

724
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:11,319
Speaker 5: even what I'm saying here, we've done nothing to kind

725
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:13,879
Speaker 5: of control the power of big tech, nothing at all.

726
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:15,879
Speaker 5: It's been twenty five years. There's some of the most

727
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:18,560
Speaker 5: powerful companies in history. If you compare us to like

728
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:21,600
Speaker 5: Standard Oil, compare it to the fifties General Motor, whatever

729
00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:24,440
Speaker 5: you want to compare it to, we have a lopsided

730
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 5: system which is out of whack with any point in

731
00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:29,239
Speaker 5: American history at this point. And I guess I was

732
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:31,240
Speaker 5: starting to say this ten years ago, and it's gotten

733
00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:34,000
Speaker 5: worse and worse and worse. And if we don't do something,

734
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:37,360
Speaker 5: I feel our politics will get crazier and more violent,

735
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:38,440
Speaker 5: which is already happening.

736
00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:42,520
Speaker 1: The goal here is that these platforms would have the

737
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:47,759
Speaker 1: same legal constraints the newspaper might or a publishing house might.

738
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:50,480
Speaker 3: Let mean, yes, that's in section two theories.

739
00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:53,120
Speaker 5: What I would say more, particularly if we want to

740
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:55,279
Speaker 5: get down the nitty gritty, is I would say that

741
00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:58,359
Speaker 5: when they promote or show you content that they own it.

742
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:00,319
Speaker 5: They can't get away, you know, if they if they're

743
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:02,879
Speaker 5: the ones who are promoting something onto your feed, that

744
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:05,759
Speaker 5: that's their responsibility. If that ends up being you know,

745
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:09,319
Speaker 5: accompliced to a crime or defamation or something like that,

746
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:10,960
Speaker 5: that they start to own it once they're involved.

747
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:12,400
Speaker 3: But I think it's broader than that.

748
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 5: I just think we have a general scheme now thirty

749
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:18,840
Speaker 5: years old, where we immunize tech companies from most laws,

750
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:22,680
Speaker 5: almost all taxation, and you know, various other things that

751
00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:25,520
Speaker 5: we use to control power to Section two thirty is

752
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:28,680
Speaker 5: a part of a much larger trend of just saying,

753
00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:31,400
Speaker 5: you guys get to live in a different country more

754
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:33,680
Speaker 5: or less called Silicon Valley where the laws of the

755
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:34,799
Speaker 5: United States do not apply.

756
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:40,439
Speaker 1: So is tech tobacco? Is tech oil? Are those one

757
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:41,000
Speaker 1: to ones?

758
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:45,760
Speaker 5: No, because those other industries are much more subject to laws.

759
00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:49,920
Speaker 3: And have been much less successful. I mean tobacco's an example.

760
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:56,800
Speaker 5: Eventually tobacco started to become under public influence and responsibility

761
00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:59,640
Speaker 5: and eventually started losing something. No one has laid a

762
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:03,040
Speaker 5: glove on big tech. The Europeans maybe a little, but

763
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:07,640
Speaker 5: it's just this kind of completely I guess sovereign industry unaccountable.

764
00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:10,480
Speaker 5: I think they believe themselves now kind of by their

765
00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:14,680
Speaker 5: very nature, to be superhumans who are beyond mere democratic control.

766
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:17,279
Speaker 5: So why well, if you go and spend a lot

767
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:21,120
Speaker 5: of time in Silicon Valley like thinking, I think they

768
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 5: have the almost religious belief that technology is taking us

769
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:28,919
Speaker 5: towards some kind of nirvana, and so if you mess

770
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:32,719
Speaker 5: with it, you're evil. So that's why, if that makes sense,

771
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:35,560
Speaker 5: I think there's an entire religious mindset that goes along

772
00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:37,640
Speaker 5: with it. I was reading one of Mark Andreessen, he's

773
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:41,120
Speaker 5: this well known VC investor. Oh yes, and he said,

774
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:46,680
Speaker 5: artificial intelligence saves lives, and we need to get superhuman intelligence.

775
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:49,160
Speaker 5: So if you decelerate it or get in the way,

776
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:51,400
Speaker 5: you are basically guilty of murder. Because I was like,

777
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:52,480
Speaker 5: that's a lot.

778
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:54,000
Speaker 3: That's a lot.

779
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:56,399
Speaker 5: If you don't pay your taxes so the hospital doesn't

780
00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:57,879
Speaker 5: have money, are you then guilty of murder?

781
00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:00,640
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm in you can say anything saying right,

782
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:04,440
Speaker 1: that's the good thing about the Internet. It's nonsensical. So

783
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:07,279
Speaker 1: I once had a different senator explain this to me.

784
00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:10,160
Speaker 1: I'm not sure it's right, but I'm not sure it's

785
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:16,480
Speaker 1: wrong that the reason the Internet is so out of

786
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:21,759
Speaker 1: control is because there's a low level grift happening with

787
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:25,920
Speaker 1: senators where you know, meta employees, the daughters of a

788
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:30,440
Speaker 1: very important United States senator crypto donates to a lot

789
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:34,640
Speaker 1: of Republicans and Democrats. That the money is just too

790
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:38,000
Speaker 1: free flowing to our politicians, and that's how we got

791
00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:41,160
Speaker 1: here or that's how we stay here. Is that correct?

792
00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:43,719
Speaker 1: And if so, how do you stop it? And if not,

793
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:45,000
Speaker 1: what is so?

794
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:46,560
Speaker 3: I think there's some truth to that.

795
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:49,719
Speaker 5: In the Biden administration, we tried to pass what would

796
00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:53,160
Speaker 5: seem like very easy laws to pass, like protection of

797
00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:58,920
Speaker 5: children's privacy, protection of children against violent and horrible materials,

798
00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:02,360
Speaker 5: basic privacy for all, Like things that you would imagine

799
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:05,439
Speaker 5: if they ever got to the Senate floor or House

800
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:08,880
Speaker 5: floor would pass Nearian Nasley could never ever get a vote,

801
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:10,480
Speaker 5: and no one would ever say why.

802
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:12,799
Speaker 1: By the way, that is an insane thing to say.

803
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:15,000
Speaker 1: I mean, I know it's true because I saw it

804
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:17,880
Speaker 1: happen firsthand, But just think about how insane that is.

805
00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:20,960
Speaker 5: Yes, things that like if you pulled Americans it's not

806
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:24,319
Speaker 5: like Democrat, but probably ninety percent Americans think, you know,

807
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:27,719
Speaker 5: children maybe should have more privacy online, like targeting you

808
00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:31,160
Speaker 5: know ads that like targeted marketing directing at children, probably

809
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 5: not the best idea, Like I don't maybe ninety nine

810
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:34,640
Speaker 5: percent no votes?

811
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:35,880
Speaker 3: Why no votes?

812
00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:39,800
Speaker 5: You know, it would always be the leader would somehow

813
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:42,960
Speaker 5: like very murky, very secret, no votes.

814
00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:45,440
Speaker 1: That was when Chuck Schumer was the majority leader.

815
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:49,319
Speaker 5: Yes, just interesting, no votes, never a vote somehow maybe

816
00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 5: wait till they know, oh you know, we'll do it

817
00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:53,239
Speaker 5: next term, or yeah, you know we're going to get

818
00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:55,799
Speaker 5: to that, or I no votes and like that. That's

819
00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:58,360
Speaker 5: the real thing about It's not like somehow these things fail,

820
00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:01,200
Speaker 5: it's they get killed before the ever a vote. So

821
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:03,640
Speaker 5: I kind of began to believe that it's just you know,

822
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:06,800
Speaker 5: I do remember that there was one or two centers

823
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:09,080
Speaker 5: leaning in our direction, and then they said they got

824
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 5: threats to Google just run ads against them in their primary.

825
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:14,319
Speaker 5: Just just what doesn't care the content, you know, So yeah,

826
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:16,120
Speaker 5: I think there's I think they want to hold the

827
00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:17,440
Speaker 5: whole political system.

828
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:19,440
Speaker 3: And the recent results speak for themselves.

829
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:22,319
Speaker 5: They had no votes on any tech relating technology for

830
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:25,520
Speaker 5: the last twenty years. That's something in the late nineties,

831
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:28,000
Speaker 5: no votes on anything, not not no passage, no votes.

832
00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:30,279
Speaker 5: That's where a lot of hearings, a lot of performative

833
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:32,400
Speaker 5: yelling and like bring them in and give them a

834
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:32,879
Speaker 5: hard time.

835
00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:35,439
Speaker 1: Well, they see how popular it is. They just don't

836
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:36,880
Speaker 1: want to pass legislation.

837
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:39,440
Speaker 5: Yes, they want to vote, but they do want to

838
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:41,719
Speaker 5: like yell at people and like say, I, you know,

839
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:44,240
Speaker 5: gave Mark Zuckerberg a really hard time about this stuff.

840
00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:49,200
Speaker 1: Kristen Cinema, one of the many senators who was against

841
00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:53,840
Speaker 1: tech regulation now lobbying for data farms.

842
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:55,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a good example.

843
00:43:55,560 --> 00:43:57,600
Speaker 5: I mean, I think it's very clear in the DC

844
00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:01,560
Speaker 5: that if you are on kind of tech side, you

845
00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:06,120
Speaker 5: can expect a nice, easy, multimillion dollar year job. We

846
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:08,640
Speaker 5: don't have to do much ever, occasionally have a meeting

847
00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:10,920
Speaker 5: and you know, kind of coast and if you don't

848
00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:13,359
Speaker 5: take their side, then you can work in a think tank,

849
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:15,359
Speaker 5: you know, or whatever.

850
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:17,200
Speaker 3: Or trying to get a nonprofit job.

851
00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:20,080
Speaker 5: But they just kind of it's kind of like almost

852
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:21,400
Speaker 5: like bribery in advance.

853
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:23,840
Speaker 3: Does that make sense, Like it's it's not.

854
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:26,879
Speaker 5: Yeah, And that kind of hangs over people's heads and

855
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:29,239
Speaker 5: they decide, well, do I want to get my I mean,

856
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:31,840
Speaker 5: I got myself out of that game, and it was

857
00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:34,239
Speaker 5: never sort of made. I guess that he came clear

858
00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:37,160
Speaker 5: to me when I was starting get that disinvited from parties,

859
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:39,759
Speaker 5: subtle job offers started to go away. So, yeah, you

860
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:42,160
Speaker 5: cross some line and you're out. And I guess she

861
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:44,880
Speaker 5: read the tea leaves and decided she wanted to have

862
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:47,120
Speaker 5: a cushy job for the rest of her life and

863
00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:49,440
Speaker 5: make millions in doing nothing, which is kind of what

864
00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:52,239
Speaker 5: she was doing the Senate too, but not making the

865
00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:53,440
Speaker 5: same amount of money.

866
00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:58,040
Speaker 1: We laugh, not because it's funny, but to keep from crying.

867
00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:01,720
Speaker 1: I think that yeah, there is definitely we are clearly

868
00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:06,040
Speaker 1: cross to rubicon. So if you are listening to this,

869
00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:09,080
Speaker 1: sort of give us, because I'm so upset, now give

870
00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:10,600
Speaker 1: us a sort of call to action.

871
00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:13,720
Speaker 5: I think a lot of the stuff starts with children's stuff,

872
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:17,200
Speaker 5: Like the path towards a lot of responsibility for big

873
00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:20,480
Speaker 5: industries starts with children's stuff. So I think, you know,

874
00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:24,120
Speaker 5: at some point the pressure to protect children becomes unbarrel.

875
00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:26,440
Speaker 5: I would agree and write, you know, and try to

876
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:29,840
Speaker 5: shame your elected representatives support child protection legislation.

877
00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:34,000
Speaker 3: I think from there you build other legislation. I'm a little.

878
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:36,399
Speaker 5: Cynical because I've wasted huge amounts of my time trying

879
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:39,640
Speaker 5: to get these stupid bills fast. I think you also

880
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:42,759
Speaker 5: have to get elected representatives off the fence where they

881
00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:46,120
Speaker 5: just kind of occasionally complain about things but avoid the

882
00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:49,240
Speaker 5: votes or the pressure being serious about wealth.

883
00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:50,960
Speaker 3: And balance in our time. I mean, it's problem for

884
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:52,720
Speaker 3: the Democratic Party in some ways.

885
00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:54,919
Speaker 5: The Publican Party can even be a little more open

886
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:57,560
Speaker 5: about it all. They are also very subject to their

887
00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:01,120
Speaker 5: own becoming captured and just starting complain about conservatives.

888
00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:03,360
Speaker 3: So those are my call the actions.

889
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:05,920
Speaker 5: Don't let your representatives just be lazy on these issues

890
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:08,600
Speaker 5: and get away with it. And you know, more generally,

891
00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:10,920
Speaker 5: I think we can turn the ship around. I think

892
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:14,399
Speaker 5: the United States has at its greatest periods of being

893
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:17,840
Speaker 5: tested responded in the progressive era, New Deal era. We

894
00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:20,000
Speaker 5: just need people, I don't care you vote for, who

895
00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:23,120
Speaker 5: actually pledge to do things and then actually do them,

896
00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:25,799
Speaker 5: because i we just elect some people who really do

897
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:29,360
Speaker 5: not are not able somehow to let votes happen in Congress,

898
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:32,640
Speaker 5: and we just let things happen at all, and we're

899
00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:35,120
Speaker 5: stuck there, and you know, some of the other stuff

900
00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:37,760
Speaker 5: is a distraction. We need to deal with the incredible

901
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:40,200
Speaker 5: wealth and balances in our time, and people who get

902
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:42,600
Speaker 5: distracked from that, I think are taking us away from

903
00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:44,280
Speaker 5: the real problem in our in our times.

904
00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:46,160
Speaker 1: Tim. I hope he'll come back.

905
00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:48,000
Speaker 3: It's been a pleasure anytime.

906
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:56,440
Speaker 1: No, no, Rick Wilson, Yes, you know what time it is.

907
00:46:56,480 --> 00:46:59,880
Speaker 1: It's fuckeray time, It's fuck great time. Rick Wilson, Do

908
00:46:59,920 --> 00:47:01,200
Speaker 1: you do you have a moment of fuckery?

909
00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:03,600
Speaker 4: I have probably what is like the pinnacle of the

910
00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:06,040
Speaker 4: moments of fuckery for a long time, and that is

911
00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:10,000
Speaker 4: Steve Whitkoff and Jared Kushner privately negotiating with Putin, and

912
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:12,319
Speaker 4: by that I mean taking bribes from Putin, and by

913
00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:14,080
Speaker 4: that I mean being paid off by Putin, and by

914
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:16,840
Speaker 4: that I mean serving as Putin's dirty little whos in

915
00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:20,520
Speaker 4: order to part out and break up Ukraine. The Russians

916
00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:23,000
Speaker 4: finally have figured out their best negotiating strategy, and that

917
00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:26,400
Speaker 4: is to bribe Donald Trump through Jared the bagman of

918
00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:29,719
Speaker 4: the family, and to bribe Donald Trump through Stephen Whitkoff,

919
00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:33,560
Speaker 4: who they have been negotiating using the Russia's plan to

920
00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:36,640
Speaker 4: parcel up Ukraine. And to kill it off. They're not negotiators,

921
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:40,720
Speaker 4: they're undertakers. The bad faith that's going on here is astounding.

922
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:43,720
Speaker 4: I was told that the Ukrainian hearing or the Ukrainian

923
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:47,080
Speaker 4: meeting over the weekend with Ukrainian delegation was essentially Rubio

924
00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:50,080
Speaker 4: and others insulting them, saying, fuck you, take the deal,

925
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:52,120
Speaker 4: or we'll leave you, or you're gon, We're gonna leave

926
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:54,520
Speaker 4: you out to dry. And they go into Putin's office

927
00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:57,240
Speaker 4: with the Golden knee pads on and leave with sacks

928
00:47:57,239 --> 00:48:02,560
Speaker 4: of cash, either physically or more metaphor. It is unbelievably

929
00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:06,400
Speaker 4: insanely corrupt. Witcoff now has been reported we have his

930
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:10,480
Speaker 4: voice on tape released by European Intelligence Service. We have

931
00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:14,040
Speaker 4: Witcocks saying I'm gonna teach you how to manipulate Trump

932
00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:17,480
Speaker 4: so we can keep Trump on your side. Yes, listen,

933
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:20,359
Speaker 4: a prosecutor about five minutes out of law school could

934
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:23,960
Speaker 4: indict that motherfucker for espionage and treason. It is insane,

935
00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:26,560
Speaker 4: and I think there's no circle of hell hot enough

936
00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:27,360
Speaker 4: for those two guys.

937
00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:30,360
Speaker 1: For wit Coffin, Kushner, Rick Wilson, thank you all.

938
00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:32,000
Speaker 3: We'll see you next week.

939
00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:36,879
Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in

940
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:42,640
Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Saturday to hear the best

941
00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:47,000
Speaker 1: minds and politics make sense of all this chaos. If

942
00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:50,080
Speaker 1: you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a friend

943
00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:53,720
Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. Thanks for listening.