1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:03,880 Speaker 1: Hey, Joel, Happy Friday, buddy, see signor it's not Friday 2 00:00:03,880 --> 00:00:06,440 Speaker 1: for us because we are actually recording this one ahead 3 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:08,840 Speaker 1: of signed. This is the best episode because you and 4 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:12,600 Speaker 1: I plus our lovely wives, plus our families, we're hanging 5 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:15,160 Speaker 1: out at the beach right about now that's fair. Yeah, 6 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 1: I'm gonna do this. Whole thing is thank This is 7 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: the entire episode, Espaniel, wait to stick to your guns. 8 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:25,280 Speaker 1: Now this We are so excited to bring you this episode. 9 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:29,080 Speaker 1: This is a conversation we had with Katie Milkman, who 10 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 1: is I mean, she's basically a genius, but she wrote 11 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:33,599 Speaker 1: this book. What was the title of the book, How 12 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 1: to You Change? How? Well, it's right, she's totally ripping 13 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:38,920 Speaker 1: off us over here at how the money We were first, Katy, 14 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:41,879 Speaker 1: that's our territory, something about the science of change, and 15 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:45,320 Speaker 1: she just addresses all of the different aspects of how 16 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:47,519 Speaker 1: it is that we can stick with the changes that 17 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 1: we're looking to make in our lives. 18 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:50,440 Speaker 2: One of the coolest parts of this conversation, Matt. So 19 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:53,360 Speaker 2: many people are thinking about this January first, or leading 20 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 2: up to January, which is when we originally aired the 21 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 2: episode exactly exactly, and one of the things she says 22 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 2: in this interview, which you're gonna stick around for, of course, 23 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:04,000 Speaker 2: because you're listing already, is that you don't have to 24 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:07,679 Speaker 2: do it wait till like some epic moment the beginning 25 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 2: of the year. There are all these other ways you 26 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:12,640 Speaker 2: can attach to a change in your life. And guess 27 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 2: what a big change for a lot of people coming up, Matt. 28 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 2: There are schedules going to change as kids go back 29 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 2: to school, stuff like that. I know it. 30 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:20,160 Speaker 1: My schedule is going to change that fall semester. Yeah. 31 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:22,320 Speaker 2: So if there's some habit that you want to stick, 32 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 2: whether it's financially related, health related, whatever, that be attaching 33 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:28,479 Speaker 2: to this moment instead of waiting until January rolls around 34 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:30,440 Speaker 2: and hoping that that's the moment for you to make 35 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:32,840 Speaker 2: some sort of big impact on your life. I think 36 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:36,320 Speaker 2: I love this. She's kind of encouraging people to find 37 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:39,039 Speaker 2: another time in the year and another way to attach 38 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 2: to the change you want to see. 39 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:42,600 Speaker 1: But it's still a meaningful date, right, Like I remember, 40 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:44,280 Speaker 1: I feel like we're giving away all the goods. But 41 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 1: she was talking about like even choosing your birthday, Like 42 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 1: folks who choose a date that means something to them 43 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 1: that you're going to be more successful in implementing whatever 44 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 1: change you're looking to make. So yeah, let's not give 45 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 1: any giveaway any more goods without further ado, Let's hear 46 00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 1: from Katie Milkman. Woy no, Welcome to How to Money. 47 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:02,000 Speaker 2: I'm Joel and I Matt and today we're talking making 48 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 2: money changes that stick with Katie Milkman. 49 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:27,320 Speaker 1: That's right, man, we are going to talk about how 50 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 1: we can make positive money changes in twenty twenty three. 51 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:34,240 Speaker 1: And who better to have this conversation with than Katie Milkman, 52 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 1: who is the author of How to Change the Science 53 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:40,079 Speaker 1: of Getting from where You Are to where You Want 54 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:43,239 Speaker 1: to be. Katie is a professor at the Wharton School 55 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 1: of the University of Pennsylvania, where she explores ways that 56 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:50,480 Speaker 1: insights from economics and psychology how they can be harnessed 57 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 1: to change consequential behaviors for good like exercise and vaccinations, 58 00:02:56,480 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 1: but also behaviors like saving more money, which is what 59 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:01,960 Speaker 1: we or we are all about. True here on the show, 60 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:05,840 Speaker 1: She's advised organizations ranging from the White House to twenty 61 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:08,919 Speaker 1: four Hour Fitness. She writes everywhere as well her op 62 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:12,080 Speaker 1: eds up here in The Times and the economist, and 63 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 1: we're just lucky to have her here with us today 64 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:16,120 Speaker 1: to talk about how you can make some of these 65 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:18,519 Speaker 1: money changes that stick. Katie, thank you so much for 66 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 1: joining us today. 67 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 3: Joel and Matt, thank you so much for having me. 68 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 2: We are pumped to talk to you today, Katie. So 69 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:28,000 Speaker 2: much to discuss, especially since the dawn of a new year. There's, yeah, 70 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:29,640 Speaker 2: a lot of changes that we want to make, and 71 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 2: our listeners of course are tuning in because they want 72 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 2: to make money changes. And we're here kind of with 73 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 2: the money advice, but you're here with hopefully the here's 74 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 2: how you can continue to do it over a longer 75 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:41,040 Speaker 2: period of time advice. But the first question we ask 76 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:44,120 Speaker 2: anybody who comes on the show is what they like 77 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 2: to sploire John and give us a little window into 78 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 2: their world. And Matt and I we splorede on craft 79 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 2: beer while we're saving and investing for the future. But 80 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 2: what's that for you? What do you like to splore? 81 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 1: John? 82 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 2: And some people might think you're a little crazy for 83 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 2: spending a lot of money in that one area. 84 00:03:57,880 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 3: I don't know if anyone will think I'm crazy, but 85 00:03:59,880 --> 00:04:02,840 Speaker 3: I like the splurge on vacations for sure. That's my 86 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:04,000 Speaker 3: that's my big one. 87 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:06,640 Speaker 1: That's not crazy at all. But I like the I 88 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:07,280 Speaker 1: like it though. 89 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, there's actually a lot of research showing that when 90 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 3: we spend on experiences rather than just buying stuff, we 91 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:17,920 Speaker 3: get more out of it. So I try to follow 92 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:22,360 Speaker 3: the data and I take really nice vacations, very nice. 93 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:24,719 Speaker 1: So are you like a are you a quantity of 94 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 1: vacations type of girl? Or like a quality? So do 95 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:29,760 Speaker 1: you go on like one day? Really? Okay? So so 96 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:32,479 Speaker 1: you go on fewer really nice vacations as opposed to 97 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 1: more of them throughout the year. 98 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, I would say I try to have a 99 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 3: healthy number, but I think the splurge part is the quality. 100 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 2: Okay, Our best vacation you've had recently, Well, I. 101 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 3: Have a six and a half year old, so that 102 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:49,279 Speaker 3: limits the exotic travel I do these days. I used 103 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 3: to go all over the world, but we had a 104 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:57,360 Speaker 3: really wonderful vacation to Hawaii this summer that was truly spectacular. 105 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:00,279 Speaker 1: Looking forward to maybe finally making that trip happen maybe 106 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:01,839 Speaker 1: this year. Jold. But we've got young kids too, so 107 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:02,360 Speaker 1: it's limited. 108 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 3: Up. 109 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 2: We're like, we're our kids are getting a little bit older, 110 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 2: it feels like we can finally expand some of our 111 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:07,040 Speaker 2: destinations and to. 112 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:10,480 Speaker 1: Re equate myself with the world. Yeah, yes, right, Okay, 113 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 1: So before we talk about how to go about making change, like, 114 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:17,280 Speaker 1: can we just talk about how sometimes folks feel unable 115 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:19,960 Speaker 1: to change? Like, what is it that's that's holding most 116 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 1: folks back from believing that they just have the ability 117 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:25,280 Speaker 1: to make progress in their lives at all. 118 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:27,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a great question. Well, first of all, I 119 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:31,160 Speaker 3: should say there are lots of very real external barriers 120 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 3: to change. 121 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 1: Right. 122 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:35,559 Speaker 3: You might feel like your budget is just too tight 123 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:37,920 Speaker 3: to make the changes you want, or you don't have 124 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 3: the family support that you need to make the changes, 125 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:45,280 Speaker 3: or job stability. So there are very real external barriers 126 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 3: that can block people. I don't study those. I actually 127 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:51,039 Speaker 3: study the internal barriers to change, and I think they're 128 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:56,080 Speaker 3: particularly fascinating because even when everything is lined up, which 129 00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:58,440 Speaker 3: it rarely is, but even when everything is lined up 130 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:02,239 Speaker 3: in your favor outside, sometimes we're our own worst enemies. 131 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:06,159 Speaker 3: And the fascinating thing about the internal barriers to change 132 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:10,240 Speaker 3: is there's no one barrier. There's a laundry list, and 133 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 3: some of us have multiple things we're fighting against. Some 134 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 3: of us are just struggling with one. Diagnosing is really 135 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:20,360 Speaker 3: important to using the right solution. So barriers that are 136 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:26,360 Speaker 3: common include procrastination, a lack of confidence forgetting, which I 137 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 3: think we overlook often. But if it doesn't get to 138 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:30,719 Speaker 3: the top of your priority list, if it's not top 139 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:33,839 Speaker 3: of mind, we often don't take the actions that are important. 140 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:36,240 Speaker 3: Habits can get in the way. We tend to be 141 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:38,960 Speaker 3: creatures of habit. We tend to take the path of 142 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:43,840 Speaker 3: least resistance, which is following those habits, and that can 143 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:47,159 Speaker 3: be a real barrier to change. So there are many 144 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 3: many challenges, and depending on which one a given person 145 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 3: is facing when they're trying to make a change, the 146 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 3: solution that will be most well suited to help them 147 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:00,840 Speaker 3: is different. 148 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:01,919 Speaker 1: Yeah. 149 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 2: Well, I will say forgetting used to be like at 150 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 2: the top of the list for reasons I didn't get 151 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 2: things done. And I swear Google Calendar has been a 152 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 2: game changer for me in that regard, Like I get 153 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:13,400 Speaker 2: a lot more stuff done just because I'm better at 154 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 2: putting stuff on the calendar to get it done. 155 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 1: But man, nothing. 156 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 2: Worked for me before that, and so I was just 157 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:22,120 Speaker 2: like a forgetful mess and Nikoff's nearly as much as 158 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 2: I wanted to see that. 159 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 1: It's definitely one thing. 160 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 2: You're right that we don't put a give enough credit 161 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 2: just so we're forgetting things because we're not putting them 162 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:31,679 Speaker 2: in front of ourselves. But what are the difference differences, Katie, 163 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 2: between resolutions that we make and then the potential for 164 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 2: lasting change, Because I don't know, something like this is 165 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:38,920 Speaker 2: a staff that gets quoted all the time, but there's 166 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 2: something like eighty percent of people who don't actually follow 167 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:44,120 Speaker 2: through on the resolutions they make after a month or two. 168 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 2: So we're in this period right now, with this fresh 169 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 2: start period that you talk about, where a lot of 170 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:52,120 Speaker 2: people are ready willing and they're trying to move in 171 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 2: the right direction when it comes to making change. But yeah, 172 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 2: how do we make sure that it sticks around and 173 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 2: isn't just a failed attempt a few weeks from now. 174 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a great question. And as you know, this 175 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:05,400 Speaker 3: is sort of a magic moment. I've done research on 176 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 3: what's called the fresh start effect phenomenon where at the 177 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 3: start of new chapters in our lives, moments that feel 178 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 3: like new beginnings, So the start of a new year 179 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 3: being the best known, but there are many others actually 180 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 3: as well. We pursue goals with extra vigor. But the 181 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 3: funny thing about fresh starts is they're short lived, right, 182 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 3: So they give you that little boost of motivation to 183 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 3: begin something new, but a couple weeks pass and that's gone, 184 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 3: and now you need something to carry you forward. And 185 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:38,080 Speaker 3: that's where a lot of folks fall flat. And I 186 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 3: actually think one of the biggest issues is that people 187 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:45,040 Speaker 3: aren't strategic about how am I going to achieve this goal. 188 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 3: They just say, oh, you know, I'm going to go 189 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:48,680 Speaker 3: to the gym this year, and I'll go now because 190 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:51,200 Speaker 3: I feel motivated, and then three weeks later they don't 191 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:54,480 Speaker 3: feel motivated anymore and everything falls apart. But an alternative 192 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:57,840 Speaker 3: way you could pursue a goal, and what research shows 193 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:01,439 Speaker 3: is better, is actually by following a bunch of best practices. 194 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:05,560 Speaker 3: So ideally, when you want to pursue a goal, first 195 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:08,760 Speaker 3: of all, you define a plan. And the plan isn't 196 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:10,320 Speaker 3: just I'm going to go to the gym once, right. 197 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 3: The plan is I'd like to do this regularly for 198 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 3: some hopefully very long term period of time. If it's 199 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 3: about getting in shape, if it's about cutting back, you're 200 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 3: spending whatever that is. Maybe you want to learn a 201 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 3: new language this year. You don't want to just say 202 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 3: I'm going to learn Spanish. You actually want to sit 203 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:31,640 Speaker 3: down and say, okay, how am I going to do it? Well, 204 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:34,920 Speaker 3: maybe those details look like saying it's going to be 205 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 3: four hours a week that I spend on dual Lingo, 206 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:40,320 Speaker 3: and it's going to be Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday at 207 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:42,679 Speaker 3: five pm right after work when I spend an hour 208 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 3: on the app practicing, and I'm going to do that 209 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 3: every week consistently. Now you're actually starting to see the 210 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 3: groundwork for the kind of plan that might carry forward. 211 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:57,120 Speaker 3: Now that might sound boring, but actually breaking down a big, 212 00:09:57,240 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 3: vague goal into bite sized pieces, whether it has to 213 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 3: do with savings, volunteering exercise is one of the most 214 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 3: important things you can do. And then figuring out when 215 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:09,720 Speaker 3: will I do it, where will I do it, how 216 00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:12,319 Speaker 3: will I get it done? There's more to the magic 217 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:14,920 Speaker 3: as well. You have to make sure you won't forget 218 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 3: so you can put it on your Google calendar. Ideally, 219 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:21,840 Speaker 3: you're thinking about accountability, so can you create consequences so 220 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:23,960 Speaker 3: that if you fail to follow through, it isn't just 221 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:27,640 Speaker 3: a shoulder shrug. But you're really gonna feel crummy about that. 222 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:31,560 Speaker 3: The more the consequence, the more likely it is that 223 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 3: you won't procrastinate or give up on yourself. So you 224 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:37,640 Speaker 3: can actually put money on the line, for instance, that 225 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 3: you agree you'll forfeit if you don't achieve a given goal. 226 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:45,000 Speaker 3: You can choose referees. There are some websites like stick 227 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:47,199 Speaker 3: dot com and bminder dot com which I am, i 228 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 3: should say, unaffiliated with, just an admirer of their product, 229 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 3: that allow you to do things like that. And research 230 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:56,200 Speaker 3: shows that when you use these so called commitment devices, 231 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 3: basically penalizing yourself for future failures to fall through on 232 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 3: your you dramatically increase the likelihood of success. Because nobody's 233 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:07,200 Speaker 3: nobody likes a fine. So those are a bunch of 234 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:09,560 Speaker 3: strategies you can take, and there's more we could get into, 235 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:13,560 Speaker 3: depending on what other obstacles you foresee, like making sure 236 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 3: you enjoy the way you're pursuing the goal and so on. 237 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:17,920 Speaker 3: But that's a pretty good groundwork. 238 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, Like you kind of just you give just 239 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:23,880 Speaker 1: like a little sampler platter of a lot of different 240 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:27,000 Speaker 1: strategies that you talk about in your book. But essentially, 241 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:29,559 Speaker 1: I mean, all of these things can lead an individual 242 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 1: to create processes that work for them, and which makes 243 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 1: me think of like my favorite new quote, which is 244 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:39,240 Speaker 1: process saves us from the poverty of our intentions, which 245 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:40,560 Speaker 1: I heard recently, and I was just like, man, that 246 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:42,920 Speaker 1: is so stinking good. But that's what all of this does. 247 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 1: It's about creating this plan. 248 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 2: Because we've all got these idealized intentions at this point 249 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:48,960 Speaker 2: in the year where it's like, of course I'm going 250 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 2: to do this, like everyone has goals. I just turned 251 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 2: over a new leaf. But if you don't have the 252 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 2: processes to back that up, then inevitably it's going to 253 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 2: fall flat for most folks, right. 254 00:11:56,679 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 3: That's exactly right, And unfortunately, too often we aren't focused 255 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 3: on those processes. We're just focused on that short burst 256 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 3: of motivation and we imagine and it will carry us 257 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:08,960 Speaker 3: forward and we'll have no problems. But once you start 258 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 3: recognizing no, there are barriers to success and to maintenance, 259 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:15,319 Speaker 3: and starting to set yourself up so that you can 260 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:17,520 Speaker 3: overcome them, you start seeing better results. 261 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:20,840 Speaker 1: And of course everyone resolutions get made at the beginning 262 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:22,760 Speaker 1: of the year, and so I feel like that's when 263 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:25,080 Speaker 1: that's a little more natural for a lot of folks. 264 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:27,719 Speaker 1: But in your book you also talk about how there 265 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:32,000 Speaker 1: are different life events that can occur that folks can 266 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:34,880 Speaker 1: maybe take advantage of. Can you talk through maybe some 267 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 1: different examples of maybe even disruptive life events that folks 268 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 1: are able to use to their advantage to basically put 269 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:44,880 Speaker 1: them on this path towards a new fresh start for them. Yeah. 270 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:47,559 Speaker 3: Absolutely, Well. One of the really interesting things about the 271 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 3: way we think about time and the way we think 272 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:53,119 Speaker 3: about our lives is that we don't perceive it linearly. 273 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:56,840 Speaker 3: We actually think about ourselves like we're characters in a book, 274 00:12:57,280 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 3: and our life is divided into chapters, and there are 275 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 3: big chapters, and there are short chapters. There's even you know, 276 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:10,400 Speaker 3: subsections of chapters. Every time something happens that feels like 277 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 3: a book ends a chapter or a section of our life, 278 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:17,000 Speaker 3: we feel this sense of discontinuity. So think about, you know, 279 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:20,320 Speaker 3: moving to a new city, and you could think about, 280 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 3: you know, the years you maybe were in college or 281 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:25,120 Speaker 3: working at a certain employer. Those are sort of chapters 282 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:27,880 Speaker 3: in your life. Or a year is also a major 283 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 3: chapter marker for many people in their lives, which is 284 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:32,840 Speaker 3: part of why new year's feels like a fresh start. 285 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:35,120 Speaker 3: And whenever we cross one of those boundaries to close 286 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:37,679 Speaker 3: one chapter and open another, we have a sense that 287 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:41,480 Speaker 3: we are further apart from our past self. Whatever you know, 288 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:43,880 Speaker 3: I didn't get done last year. Last year, I meant 289 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:48,120 Speaker 3: to get in shape, or I meant to get my 290 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 3: portfolio under control and diversify better. Whatever it was, I 291 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 3: didn't do it yet. But that was the old me, 292 00:13:56,240 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 3: and this is the new me, and the new me's 293 00:13:57,640 --> 00:13:59,719 Speaker 3: going to be different. So that discontinuity can be really 294 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:03,240 Speaker 3: predictive for anything where you haven't already achieved the goal 295 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:06,600 Speaker 3: and maybe you were feeling a little sad about it, 296 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:09,080 Speaker 3: and now you can say, well, you know, that was 297 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:12,040 Speaker 3: the past and this is going to be different. It 298 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:13,839 Speaker 3: also tends to lead us a step back and think 299 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 3: big picture about our lives. So we have shown that 300 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 3: this happens not just with things that you might expect 301 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 3: to be momentous, like a real physical change. You have 302 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 3: a new job or a new house, or a new 303 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 3: community or a new role of some kind. Right, there's 304 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:35,360 Speaker 3: actually really wonderful past research by Wendy Wood at the 305 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:38,280 Speaker 3: University of Southern California looking at these life disruptions and 306 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 3: how they can break up our habits. But we've shown 307 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 3: that even trivial events on the calendar that truly do 308 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 3: not matter, and they create the same psychological and choice 309 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:53,120 Speaker 3: effects where we pursue goals with greater vigor. So the 310 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:56,160 Speaker 3: start of a new week is a minor fresh start. 311 00:14:56,440 --> 00:14:58,240 Speaker 3: We already talked about New Year's that's the big one 312 00:14:58,240 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 3: we're all familiar with, but the start of a new month, 313 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:03,360 Speaker 3: sometimes the celebration of spring, especially with drawn to your attention, 314 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 3: the start of spring feels like a new beginning, the 315 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:08,560 Speaker 3: celebration of a birthday, and there are many minor holidays 316 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:11,240 Speaker 3: that feel like fresh starts to people, so think more 317 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 3: Labor Day and less Valentine's Day. And different religions have 318 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:17,720 Speaker 3: different holidays that signal a fresh start for people who 319 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:20,760 Speaker 3: practice in that religion. So all these fresh start dates, 320 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 3: when we sort of look at data, have this incredible 321 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:29,480 Speaker 3: ability to increase just naturally how much people are doing 322 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:32,000 Speaker 3: things like searching for the term diet on Google, or 323 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 3: visiting the gym, or setting goals on popular goal setting 324 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 3: websites about everything from their health to their finances to 325 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:43,000 Speaker 3: their education. And we have also done experiments where we 326 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 3: show that by highlighting fresh start dates that people might 327 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 3: not otherwise be attending to, we can get people to 328 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:54,000 Speaker 3: pursue their goals more aggressively. So my favorite experiment involved 329 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 3: trying to get more people to sign up for a 330 00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 3: retirement savings account with their employer that was text beneficial. 331 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 3: It was a four oh three B at a four 332 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 3: oh one K, which is probably the most familiar, but 333 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:08,840 Speaker 3: this was with universe at that I do, so I 334 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:11,560 Speaker 3: thought I could throw out some of that that fun stuff. 335 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 3: So we partnered with four universities that had four or 336 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 3: three B plans and we sent out mailings to employees 337 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:23,880 Speaker 3: who were not yet saving at the sort of match threshold, 338 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 3: so they weren't taking advantage of all of their employeer 339 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:28,480 Speaker 3: benefits or weren't saving at all. In fact, most weren't 340 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 3: saving at all, and we invited them to start saving, 341 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:34,000 Speaker 3: either right away or in the future, because we know 342 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:36,680 Speaker 3: a lot of people would want to put off that 343 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 3: decision to start saving from past research. And what we 344 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:42,080 Speaker 3: varied is whether or not the date in the future 345 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:44,320 Speaker 3: when we invited people to begin saving, we said, we'll 346 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 3: take care of it. Just mail back this postcard if 347 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 3: that date in the future aligned with a fresh start 348 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 3: and was described in that way, or if it aligned 349 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:53,960 Speaker 3: with a fresh start but wasn't described so to be 350 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:56,640 Speaker 3: really specific, imagine your birthday's coming up in two months 351 00:16:56,920 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 3: and you're in this experiment. We would flip a coin 352 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 3: and the coin toss would determine whether you got a 353 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:03,360 Speaker 3: version of the mailing that invited you to start saving 354 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 3: after your upcoming birthday or in two months. Now, they're 355 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:11,919 Speaker 3: literally identical, but in one case we are highlighting an 356 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:15,119 Speaker 3: upcoming fresh start as the opportunity. So we tried this 357 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:17,159 Speaker 3: with birthdays, we tried it with a start of spring, 358 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:19,880 Speaker 3: and what we see is that inviting people to begin 359 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 3: saving after a fresh start date and like literally calling 360 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 3: it out as such leads to twenty to thirty percent 361 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 3: more savings and the following eight months than a literally 362 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:35,480 Speaker 3: identical invitation to save that doesn't name the fresh start date. 363 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:37,360 Speaker 1: That's a significant increase. 364 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:39,119 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's pretty exciting. 365 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:42,879 Speaker 2: Humans are odd beings, right that we respond differently that, 366 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:44,919 Speaker 2: But it's cool to see that that's the case, and 367 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:48,240 Speaker 2: then you can tailor your marketing accordingly to help people 368 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:52,240 Speaker 2: make better decisions. And I'm curious to you write about Katie, 369 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 2: you performed a lot of research that shows that we 370 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:57,439 Speaker 2: underestimate the discipline needed to make change in our lives, 371 00:17:57,600 --> 00:17:59,119 Speaker 2: but that there are ways that we can make it 372 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:01,359 Speaker 2: more fun. And so, yeah, can you talk about that, 373 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 2: because sometimes there are If we can make it more fun, 374 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:05,159 Speaker 2: we're more likely to stick to it. 375 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:08,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, this is a huge insight and in I think 376 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:11,080 Speaker 3: the best research on this comes from islet Fishbucket the 377 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 3: University of Chicago and Caitlin Woollie at Cornell, who showed 378 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 3: most of us, when we're left to our own devices, 379 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 3: think the best way to pursue our goals is just 380 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:21,479 Speaker 3: to look for the most direct path to success and 381 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:25,240 Speaker 3: follow it. So let's take the example of getting in shape. 382 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:28,679 Speaker 3: What's the maximumly efficient workout machine that will create the 383 00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:31,679 Speaker 3: most pain and sort of benefits per minute. You're like, 384 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:33,119 Speaker 3: I'm going to get on that if I want to 385 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:33,720 Speaker 3: get in shape. 386 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, it means I'm going to start running right this minute. Yeah, exactly, Yes, 387 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:38,240 Speaker 1: regardless of the. 388 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 3: Weather, failing your arms, carrying weights, you know, to all 389 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 3: the things that are hard. A small minority of people, though, 390 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:46,760 Speaker 3: pursue their goals a different way, which is that they 391 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 3: actually look for a fun way to achieve that goal 392 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:52,160 Speaker 3: of say, getting in shape, so that that person might 393 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:55,439 Speaker 3: go to zoomba classes with a friend instead of getting 394 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:59,879 Speaker 3: on the punishing staremaster. And what's really interesting is that 395 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 3: the folks who into it they should find a fun 396 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:06,520 Speaker 3: way to pursue their goals, they're actually the ones that 397 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:09,320 Speaker 3: have it right. And randomize control trials where people are 398 00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:11,479 Speaker 3: either encouraged to pursue their goals in ways that are 399 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:14,679 Speaker 3: fun or in ways that are maximumly efficient. The people 400 00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:17,119 Speaker 3: encouraged to pursue goals in ways that are fun are 401 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:19,879 Speaker 3: the ones who actually end up sticking to them longer. 402 00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:23,840 Speaker 3: And in most cases, it's not about how much progress 403 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:26,480 Speaker 3: you make per session, it's about sticking to it that 404 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 3: leads to the to real success. So that persistence difference 405 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:33,680 Speaker 3: between pursuing goals in a way that's fun and ways 406 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 3: that are you know, slightly more efficient, we miss, you know, 407 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:40,800 Speaker 3: we don't appreciate it, and we make a mistake there. 408 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:44,120 Speaker 3: So I've done some research on different ways you can 409 00:19:44,119 --> 00:19:46,280 Speaker 3: make it fun to pursue your goals, because there are 410 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 3: strategies that systematically make it more enjoyable. One is, whenever 411 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 3: there's something that would feel like a chore otherwise, you 412 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:56,240 Speaker 3: can actually try to link it with a temptation. So 413 00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 3: only let yourself, say, binge, watch your favorite TV show 414 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:03,200 Speaker 3: when you are working out at the gym, or only 415 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 3: let yourself pick up your favorite beverage from a coffee 416 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:09,720 Speaker 3: shop when you're heading to the library to hit the books. 417 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:12,000 Speaker 3: If you're a student, I talk to my students at 418 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:14,400 Speaker 3: Warton about that one a lot. Or you know, only 419 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:17,399 Speaker 3: let yourself listen your favorite podcast while you're doing household chores. 420 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 3: And by combining those two things, something that's a temptation 421 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:24,239 Speaker 3: and source of pleasure with something that might otherwise not 422 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:26,879 Speaker 3: be super fun that you might put off and dread, 423 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:29,920 Speaker 3: you can transform the experience so that you'll get your 424 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 3: chores done and keep at it. And there are other 425 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:37,280 Speaker 3: strategies too, right, selecting different types of activities as a 426 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:39,840 Speaker 3: way to pursue the same goal and also making it 427 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:43,120 Speaker 3: social can be really effective when you pursue goals with 428 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:46,600 Speaker 3: someone who you enjoy. That's another way to change the experience. 429 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:49,600 Speaker 3: But the key insight is when you're thinking about a goal, 430 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 3: when you're making a plan. Something we already talked about 431 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 3: a little bit earlier, how important it is to be strategic, 432 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:58,399 Speaker 3: think about pursuing that goal and planning to pursue that 433 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:01,879 Speaker 3: goal in a way you will enjoy, because ultimately that 434 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 3: is a huge predictor of success. You've got to stick 435 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:07,400 Speaker 3: to it. And if you don't enjoy it, if it's 436 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:09,920 Speaker 3: no fun while you're pursuing the goal, you're going to quit. 437 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:13,120 Speaker 1: That's right. Yeah, that's where you can use that instant 438 00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 1: gratification which normally works against us, but then you're harnessing it. 439 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 1: You're using that as like when at your back. But 440 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 1: so you're talking about temptation bundling o case. Yes, yeah, yeah, 441 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:28,240 Speaker 1: I would love to hear, how like, how are maybe 442 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:32,240 Speaker 1: some specific ways that folks can apply temptation bundling to 443 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:34,639 Speaker 1: their financial habits to you know, whether it is for 444 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:37,679 Speaker 1: them to save more, whether it's them spending less at 445 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 1: the grocery store. I'd be curious to hear if you 446 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:42,520 Speaker 1: have any suggestions for ways that folks can temptation bundle 447 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 1: to get ahead with their money. 448 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:46,239 Speaker 3: Yeah. I think that's a great question, and I do 449 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 3: think there are ways that you can use temptation bundling 450 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:51,719 Speaker 3: when it comes to financial habits. You know, one is 451 00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 3: just thinking about budgeting, which is not a task that 452 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:59,960 Speaker 3: everybody relishes and looks forward to, and thinking about our 453 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:03,040 Speaker 3: There are there things you can bundle with budgeting that 454 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:05,320 Speaker 3: make it more pleasant, like maybe a favorite bottle of 455 00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:07,439 Speaker 3: wine you only open once a month when you go 456 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 3: through your budget, or a person you really enjoy spending 457 00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:13,120 Speaker 3: time with and you both get together when it's sort 458 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:14,880 Speaker 3: of time to make budgets and you get to chit 459 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:17,159 Speaker 3: chat and laugh a little bit while you're going through it. 460 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 3: I will admit that I was influenced very much on 461 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:22,439 Speaker 3: that one by my dad growing up, who used to 462 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:26,320 Speaker 3: do as taxes with an accountant who become came a 463 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:29,639 Speaker 3: very dear friend, and they made it a source of 464 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:31,639 Speaker 3: fun every year. It was basically a big party. They 465 00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:33,960 Speaker 3: stayed up late, they drank a lot of great wine, 466 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 3: they had a really good meal when it was tax time. 467 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 3: And so there's lots of ways I think you can 468 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:44,359 Speaker 3: make some of the things that feel like chores but 469 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:50,560 Speaker 3: are really important to healthy financial decision making more pleasant. 470 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:53,240 Speaker 3: A lot of them are social, choosing an advisor who 471 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:55,600 Speaker 3: you enjoy spending time with, maybe going out for a 472 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 3: special meal at a restaurant, you reserve for only spending 473 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:01,280 Speaker 3: time with them. So those are a few ideas, but 474 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:04,120 Speaker 3: creative listeners may come up with others, and I'm always 475 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:06,920 Speaker 3: on the market for other temptation bundles. 476 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:08,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I like it. 477 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:11,359 Speaker 2: I literally had a coworker who she would go to 478 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:13,160 Speaker 2: the gym, get on the StairMaster, and she would watch 479 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:15,720 Speaker 2: her favorite shows. And it was I remember, like, I 480 00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:17,719 Speaker 2: think she would have given up her gym commitment if 481 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:19,600 Speaker 2: it hadn't been for the fact that that she so 482 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 2: deeply associated watching her favorite shows with working out that 483 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:24,920 Speaker 2: it became the thing like, well, I'm going to go 484 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:28,639 Speaker 2: watch my show, but inevitably she was getting exercise at 485 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:30,359 Speaker 2: the same time. So I think that's brilliant and it's 486 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 2: one of those things that not many people think about. Well, 487 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:34,359 Speaker 2: we've got a few more questions we want to get 488 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:36,800 Speaker 2: to with you. We want to talk about overcoming procrastination 489 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:40,400 Speaker 2: and laziness. We'll get to some questions for Katie on 490 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:41,919 Speaker 2: those fronts right after this. 491 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:53,040 Speaker 1: All right, we are back from the break talking with 492 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:56,320 Speaker 1: Katie Milkman about these different money changes that you can make, 493 00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:58,200 Speaker 1: and not only that you can make, but that you 494 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:01,919 Speaker 1: can stick with. Katie in your book you talk about 495 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 1: how I mean basically everybody procrastinates, right, everybody from folks 496 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:09,199 Speaker 1: like us all the way down to your students who 497 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 1: you teach. But there are constraints or commitment devices you 498 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:16,359 Speaker 1: mentioned this just before the break, that we can use. 499 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:18,919 Speaker 1: So can you explain how those work and maybe give 500 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 1: some examples. 501 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:24,639 Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, Commitment devices are fascinating because we're actually quite 502 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,960 Speaker 3: used to their sort of sister tool, which is being 503 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:32,120 Speaker 3: managed by other people. Right, if you have a boss 504 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:35,720 Speaker 3: or live in a country that has a functioning government, 505 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:38,199 Speaker 3: then you are familiar with the fact that sometimes you 506 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 3: are incentivized to behave in ways that are good for 507 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:46,240 Speaker 3: your organization or your community. Right, So, think about speeding tickets. 508 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 3: You are tempted to speed, but you get slapped with 509 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:53,960 Speaker 3: a fine. If you give into that temptation, or think 510 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,680 Speaker 3: about finishing a project at work, you probably are given 511 00:24:57,720 --> 00:24:59,399 Speaker 3: a deadline by your boss. I know there will be 512 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,480 Speaker 3: something real common ssequence if you don't actually hit that deadline. Well, 513 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 3: that's when someone else external to you imposes some cost 514 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:10,840 Speaker 3: for say procrastination or giving into temptation. But it turns 515 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:13,679 Speaker 3: out you can actually impose penalties on yourself in the 516 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 3: same way, and that's when it's called a commitment device. 517 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 3: And it sounds weird because the idea of imposing penalties 518 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:24,160 Speaker 3: on yourself for not achieving your goals is kind of counterintuitive, 519 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:26,760 Speaker 3: like why would I find myself or punish myself or 520 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:28,960 Speaker 3: set deadlines with consequences for myself? 521 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:31,320 Speaker 1: But it was a little masochistic, right does? 522 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:34,760 Speaker 3: It really does? But the evidence shows that when you 523 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:39,399 Speaker 3: create those kinds of deadlines and penalties for yourself, it 524 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:44,200 Speaker 3: can be incredibly effective. This is a podcast about finance, 525 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:47,159 Speaker 3: so uh or financial decision making, so it's a good 526 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:50,119 Speaker 3: place to talk about one of my favorite studies on 527 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:52,600 Speaker 3: the power of a commitment device, which actually was a 528 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 3: savings study and it involved giving people access to a 529 00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:00,480 Speaker 3: very unusual kind of savings account. The study was done 530 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:03,480 Speaker 3: in the Philippines, and it was done to give people 531 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 3: access to an account where they actually wouldn't be able 532 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:10,560 Speaker 3: to take their money out unless they reached a predetermined 533 00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 3: date or a predetermined savings goal, and it had no 534 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:19,200 Speaker 3: interest rate benefits over a standard account that was fully liquid. 535 00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:23,400 Speaker 3: It's sort of crazy to think people would actually put 536 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:27,480 Speaker 3: money into this view of sort of a strict economic. 537 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,920 Speaker 1: Perspective somebody whom or liberty, Yeah, like. 538 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:33,119 Speaker 3: Why would you ever do that unless there's like a 539 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:35,400 Speaker 3: higher interest rate, Why would you ever want to put 540 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:38,200 Speaker 3: your money into this account? That's it's just strictly worse. 541 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:42,440 Speaker 3: You can't access your cash. But interestingly, and a randomized 542 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 3: controled trial, about thirty percent of those offered this kind 543 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:49,960 Speaker 3: of account chose to put money in it, some of 544 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:52,240 Speaker 3: their money at least into that account, So that's sort 545 00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 3: of shocking. And then the most astounding fact is that 546 00:26:55,960 --> 00:27:00,280 Speaker 3: two groups randomly selected were compared to one another, one 547 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:02,680 Speaker 3: of which had access to this account. They were told, hey, 548 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:04,160 Speaker 3: you can put some money in it if you want, 549 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 3: and remember thirty percent did, seventy percent didn't. So we 550 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:10,320 Speaker 3: compare that entire group, everybody who had access to it, 551 00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:13,160 Speaker 3: whether they put money in or didn't, to a second group, 552 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:15,639 Speaker 3: which is the control group that wasn't given access to 553 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 3: this account. And the question is which group saves more, 554 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:21,080 Speaker 3: the group that can put money in an illiquid account 555 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:25,159 Speaker 3: or the group that can't. And what's fascinating is that 556 00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:28,680 Speaker 3: having access to these accounts where you don't get any 557 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,920 Speaker 3: interest rate benefit, but your money's locked up until you've 558 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:35,800 Speaker 3: reached a predetermined savings goal or hit a date that 559 00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:39,080 Speaker 3: you selected. Having access to it leads to eighty percent 560 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:42,200 Speaker 3: more savings yr over year. Wow, and again, only thirty 561 00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:44,240 Speaker 3: percent of people are even putting money in these accounts. 562 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 3: So just think, you know, imagine if one hundred percent 563 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:50,320 Speaker 3: were how high the savings benefits would be for the whole. 564 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:52,800 Speaker 1: Eight hundred additional dollar that was the average for the 565 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:53,520 Speaker 1: entire group. 566 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:57,439 Speaker 3: That's right, exactly, So ok, eighty percent increase in savings 567 00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:00,840 Speaker 3: for the entire population just offered the account even though 568 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:04,640 Speaker 3: only thirty percent took it up. It's an incredible result. 569 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:09,560 Speaker 3: So it highlights that when we take steps to constrain 570 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 3: ourselves to prevent ourselves from giving into temptation, it's really beneficial. 571 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:17,720 Speaker 3: Another great studies showed that letting smokers put money into 572 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:21,639 Speaker 3: an account where they would have to forfeit all that cash. 573 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 3: So this is a different way of imposing a commitment. 574 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:28,360 Speaker 3: Here we're finding people instead of constraining access, but smokers 575 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:30,280 Speaker 3: who have a way to put money on the line, 576 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:32,280 Speaker 3: the loft of forfeit if they don't quit smoking six 577 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:35,280 Speaker 3: months later, they quit at a thirty percent higher rate 578 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:40,479 Speaker 3: than otherwise. Identical smokers who just get standards smoking cessation tools. 579 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:44,720 Speaker 3: So if we can find ourselves or constrain ourselves, that's 580 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:47,000 Speaker 3: a way we can sort of bully ourselves into achieving 581 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:49,200 Speaker 3: goals at a higher rate. And again we're used to 582 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:51,240 Speaker 3: others doing this for us. Our manager who sets a 583 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:53,280 Speaker 3: deadline and says there's a penalty if you don't turn 584 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:56,800 Speaker 3: this in on time, or our government that says, you know, 585 00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:58,960 Speaker 3: I'll find you for these behaviors that I don't want 586 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:01,800 Speaker 3: to see. But if you do it for yourself, you 587 00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:03,680 Speaker 3: can reap all the benefits. 588 00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:06,320 Speaker 1: And I just, uh, I think this has everything to 589 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:08,720 Speaker 1: do with why I've been so successful at going to 590 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:11,400 Speaker 1: the gym three times a week, Katie, is because I 591 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:13,320 Speaker 1: pay a lot of money at the beginning of the 592 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:16,000 Speaker 1: month it automatically gets deducted. Well. 593 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:17,640 Speaker 2: It was also a fresh start thing, Matt, because you 594 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:20,640 Speaker 2: and I started working out when we moved. I moved 595 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:23,479 Speaker 2: over this summer, Katie, and like we thought of it 596 00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:26,080 Speaker 2: kind of and we didn't connect the terminology because we 597 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:27,760 Speaker 2: hadn't read your book at that point, but you were 598 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:30,520 Speaker 2: connecting it to this like ability start effect to start 599 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:33,200 Speaker 2: some fresh things. And so the move basically combined with 600 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:35,000 Speaker 2: that more money, I'm never going to stop. 601 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 1: Working, right because I got I got the double way. 602 00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:38,880 Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, that's great. 603 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:41,360 Speaker 3: And it is funny that by reducing the marginal cost 604 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:44,360 Speaker 3: of a gym is it to zero, you're essentially pre committing. 605 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:48,160 Speaker 3: There's also a bit of fun psychology. You know, it 606 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 3: is a sunk cost, right Once you've spent it, you 607 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 3: can't recover it. So in a sense, you started sort 608 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:55,480 Speaker 3: of be making a decision that ignores that about whether 609 00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:57,360 Speaker 3: you're going to go to the gym this afternoon or not. 610 00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,280 Speaker 3: But that's not the way our mind works. We tend 611 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:04,760 Speaker 3: to feel guilty about expenses even if there's sunk costs, 612 00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:07,440 Speaker 3: if we're not sort of taking full advantage of them. 613 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:12,280 Speaker 3: So there's there's a behavioral bias you're leveraging to get 614 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:13,640 Speaker 3: yourself to the gym there too. 615 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:14,600 Speaker 1: Yeah. 616 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:17,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, so for so many elements of our financial lives, 617 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:20,400 Speaker 2: we're not just trying to incentivize something positive. We're trying 618 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:24,480 Speaker 2: to discourage something that's negative, right, like reckless spending. Yeah, 619 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:27,760 Speaker 2: is one of those things. And so yeah, some studies 620 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:30,760 Speaker 2: have shown that using cash is more painful for people, 621 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:33,760 Speaker 2: which helps us it helps people spend less overall, And 622 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:36,920 Speaker 2: although I've heard anecdotal evidence from younger folks that that's 623 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:39,320 Speaker 2: not the case, that they actually think of cash as 624 00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:41,800 Speaker 2: of it's burning a hole in their pocket literally, and 625 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:44,160 Speaker 2: they don't feel the pain associated with it. And so 626 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:45,920 Speaker 2: maybe some of these older studies need to be updated. 627 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:48,720 Speaker 2: I'd be curious to see if that still holds. But 628 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,120 Speaker 2: how else can we create pain points to help us 629 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 2: curb some of those negative habits, some of those ways 630 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:58,280 Speaker 2: maybe in the realm of money that we're using it 631 00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 2: kind of like in ways that we don't don't want 632 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:02,840 Speaker 2: to be using it anymore, ways that are really working 633 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:04,240 Speaker 2: where we're working against ourselves. 634 00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:07,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, accountability to other people can be an important 635 00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:09,680 Speaker 3: way of sort of punishing yourself if you want to 636 00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:11,680 Speaker 3: avoid a bad behavior. So we talked a little bit 637 00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 3: about accounts that are a liquid so you can you know, 638 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:16,880 Speaker 3: you're literally not able to touch it. That's one way 639 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 3: of penaltalizing yourself. You can literally find yourself. But that's 640 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:21,760 Speaker 3: sort of counterproductive. You're trying to save more money and 641 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:23,840 Speaker 3: then you find yourself for not saving enough, right, you 642 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:27,080 Speaker 3: could see how that becomes a vicious cycle. But Another 643 00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:30,760 Speaker 3: tool is just giving visibility to someone so that you'll 644 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:33,080 Speaker 3: be ashamed if they find out that you don't achieve 645 00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:38,400 Speaker 3: a goal. That's another kind of penalty. And so having 646 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,880 Speaker 3: accountability to someone else, giving them visibility into a financial 647 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 3: goal and whether or not you're achieving it, that could 648 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:48,760 Speaker 3: be a you know, still somewhat painful, but less painful 649 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:51,360 Speaker 3: way that you could achieve success. 650 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:53,160 Speaker 2: Kind of like announcing on social media, Hey, I'm going 651 00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:55,680 Speaker 2: to run a marathon at the in November or something 652 00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,560 Speaker 2: that like, if you don't actually make it happen, you've 653 00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 2: kind of like set yourself up. All your peer group 654 00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 2: is expecting you to accomplish this, and there is some 655 00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:05,600 Speaker 2: sort of a level of public failure if you don't 656 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:08,160 Speaker 2: hit that goal. So yeah, I could see that being 657 00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:11,479 Speaker 2: working in your favor too, even as like a negative 658 00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:12,240 Speaker 2: kind of motivation. 659 00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, Although I would say one important thing about 660 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:18,880 Speaker 3: any sort of public accountability is generally it's more effective 661 00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:22,800 Speaker 3: to define small sub goals that you want to achieve 662 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:25,240 Speaker 3: and give some visibility into that rather than a big 663 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:26,760 Speaker 3: end goal. So you talked about, oh, I'm going to 664 00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:30,719 Speaker 3: run a marathon next year, you know, in the fall, 665 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,200 Speaker 3: that's a really big end goal. The ideal would be 666 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:36,360 Speaker 3: to say, you know, I'm going to run a marathon 667 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:40,440 Speaker 3: next fall, and I'm starting with a five k next month, 668 00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:43,160 Speaker 3: and then you know, the month after that, I'll do 669 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:44,680 Speaker 3: a half marathon and so and so. You sort of 670 00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 3: work your way up and there's visibility at each point 671 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:51,320 Speaker 3: along the way. When it's a big goal that's distal, 672 00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:54,920 Speaker 3: then even with that penalty and shame, you may not 673 00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:56,920 Speaker 3: take the steps in between. You may sort of put 674 00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:58,560 Speaker 3: it off and put it off, and then it's too 675 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:00,640 Speaker 3: late to actually train for the marria by the time 676 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:04,800 Speaker 3: you realize how embarrassed you'll be. So smaller, bite sized 677 00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:10,560 Speaker 3: goals with visibility to others and accountability are a better approach. 678 00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:13,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, you mean you talk about putting that plan together 679 00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:15,920 Speaker 1: and how that's probably one of the most most important 680 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:17,560 Speaker 1: things you can do, because literally, like once you start 681 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:20,959 Speaker 1: planning things out, you start tackling the problem. It's not 682 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:22,760 Speaker 1: like it's just this device that sits on the shelf 683 00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:26,120 Speaker 1: until it's needed. Like literally the process of planning starts. 684 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:28,560 Speaker 1: You start to implement the very next steps that you 685 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:30,360 Speaker 1: need to take. It kind of like gets you started 686 00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:33,240 Speaker 1: on that you're setting things in motion at that point. Exactly, yeah, exactly, 687 00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:37,800 Speaker 1: you got it. Okay, Automation when it comes to fighting laziness, 688 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:40,080 Speaker 1: I think that that's a device that can be used. 689 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:43,040 Speaker 1: How important do you think automation is when it comes 690 00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:47,080 Speaker 1: to creating lasting change and specifically fighting against laziness. 691 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:52,120 Speaker 3: Automation is such an amazing tool for changing for good, 692 00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:56,040 Speaker 3: particularly in the domain of financial decision making. If we 693 00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:59,760 Speaker 3: could have automation in every part of our lives, I 694 00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:04,080 Speaker 3: think we would have far fewer problems. If only I 695 00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:07,320 Speaker 3: could just automate rejecting dessert for the next month. Can 696 00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:10,279 Speaker 3: you imagine? Or I can automate today. I'm just gonna 697 00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:12,319 Speaker 3: put it on autopilot that I will show up at 698 00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:15,960 Speaker 3: the gym every day at five pm. The amazing thing 699 00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:19,200 Speaker 3: about automation and your finances is that you really can, 700 00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:22,200 Speaker 3: sort of, in the words of no belaure Richard Taylor, 701 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:24,040 Speaker 3: set it and forget it. You can say, I'm gonna 702 00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:26,680 Speaker 3: take this amount of money. I'm going to auto deduct 703 00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:29,239 Speaker 3: it from my paid check every month when it arrives 704 00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:31,680 Speaker 3: and send it straight to a retirement savings account, or 705 00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:34,600 Speaker 3: straight to an emergency savings account, or whatever it is. 706 00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:37,000 Speaker 3: I need to save for you do it. Once it 707 00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:39,879 Speaker 3: happens automatically, you literally don't have to think about it again, 708 00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:42,440 Speaker 3: and then that money isn't sitting there for you to spend. 709 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:45,719 Speaker 3: It's a really incredible tool and there have been a 710 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:49,600 Speaker 3: lot of studies showing just how useful these kinds of 711 00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:54,920 Speaker 3: auto deduct settings are for increasing savings. Frankly, I do 712 00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:56,600 Speaker 3: a lot of work. I do work on savings. I 713 00:34:56,640 --> 00:35:00,719 Speaker 3: also do work on health and education, and it is 714 00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:06,400 Speaker 3: frustrating that we cannot automate, you know, study habits, healthy 715 00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:08,280 Speaker 3: eating and so on everyday behavior. 716 00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:11,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, we're still takes some sort of willpower. 717 00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:13,400 Speaker 3: That's right, And of course you can't automate resisting the 718 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:18,680 Speaker 3: temptation every day to splurge spend, but it sure is 719 00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:21,239 Speaker 3: helpful that some of that money has disappeared in your 720 00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:24,640 Speaker 3: account balance is limited in terms of the splurge spending 721 00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:28,280 Speaker 3: because you automated those deductions and sending money to savings. 722 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:29,040 Speaker 1: Yeah. 723 00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:31,920 Speaker 2: I mean, when you look at the results of automatic 724 00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:34,520 Speaker 2: opt ins when it comes to like four to one 725 00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:37,480 Speaker 2: K contributions, the amount of people that contribute to their 726 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:41,319 Speaker 2: four to one K when the default position is that 727 00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:44,920 Speaker 2: they are like it's so much higher, incredible when it's 728 00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:46,200 Speaker 2: left up to the individual choice. 729 00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:48,520 Speaker 3: Right. Yeah, So this this is a classic study that 730 00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:50,879 Speaker 3: was done in I guess two thousand and three by 731 00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:56,200 Speaker 3: Bridget Madrian, and what she and her collaborator showed is 732 00:35:56,239 --> 00:36:01,799 Speaker 3: that when this single employer switched from having new employees 733 00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:04,720 Speaker 3: fill out paperwork where they had to check a box 734 00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:07,360 Speaker 3: to opt in to be a part of the employers 735 00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:10,680 Speaker 3: for a one K to having new employees check a 736 00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:13,680 Speaker 3: box to opt out, they saw about a thirty percentage 737 00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:18,200 Speaker 3: point increase overnight in how many people were saving for retirement. 738 00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:21,120 Speaker 3: It's just extraordinary, and this has now been replicated many times. 739 00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:24,319 Speaker 3: The effects aren't always necessarily thirty percentage point increases, but 740 00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:29,160 Speaker 3: they're large increases and it's really powerful, and lots of 741 00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:33,759 Speaker 3: companies now have smart defaults. And in fact, I think 742 00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:37,160 Speaker 3: the two thousand and six US Pension Protection Act legislated 743 00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:40,480 Speaker 3: that it's tax advantaged for your employer to automatically enroll 744 00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:42,560 Speaker 3: you in their savings plan. 745 00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:46,160 Speaker 1: That's when good process design or I don't know what 746 00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:48,440 Speaker 1: they call it. All the software engineers who designed the 747 00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:52,279 Speaker 1: different software that when you're onboarding employees, but just some 748 00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:54,600 Speaker 1: of the right tweaks to the system can make a 749 00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:57,239 Speaker 1: significant impact on the ability for folks to save for 750 00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:00,560 Speaker 1: futures different But Bi, Katie, We've got a few more 751 00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:02,319 Speaker 1: questions for you that we're going to get to here 752 00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:04,040 Speaker 1: after the break, including we want to talk about the 753 00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:07,880 Speaker 1: impact of the people we hang out with. We're going 754 00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:10,160 Speaker 1: to talk about peer pressure and more right after this. 755 00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:22,160 Speaker 2: How we're back from break, still talking with Katie Milkman. 756 00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:24,600 Speaker 2: We want to make money changes in twenty twenty three, 757 00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:27,759 Speaker 2: most of us at least unless you're just already crushing it, 758 00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:29,600 Speaker 2: but most of us want to make money changes this year. 759 00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:31,920 Speaker 2: We want to get better with our finances. But we 760 00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:34,359 Speaker 2: don't want to just make empty gestures in this new 761 00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:36,880 Speaker 2: year and then find out that we fall flat on 762 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:40,439 Speaker 2: our face weeks from now. And so Katie, we're glad 763 00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:42,120 Speaker 2: to have you here talking about how to make money 764 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:44,000 Speaker 2: changes that are going to stick around stand the test 765 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:47,640 Speaker 2: of time. At creating, initiating and incorporating some of these 766 00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:50,480 Speaker 2: tactics to do that. You give an example in your 767 00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:52,879 Speaker 2: book about a way that high school students were able 768 00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:56,200 Speaker 2: to boost their performance. Can you share that story? I 769 00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:57,319 Speaker 2: think I found that one fascinating. 770 00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:01,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely so. One of the most interesting studies I've 771 00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:03,640 Speaker 3: gotten to be involved in was a study led by 772 00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:06,560 Speaker 3: Lauren Es Chris Winkler at the Kellegg School at Northwestern 773 00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:11,040 Speaker 3: University showing that when students are invited to advise their 774 00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:15,880 Speaker 3: peers on how to study more effectively, the invitation to 775 00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:18,520 Speaker 3: give that advice to others and the act of doing 776 00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:22,919 Speaker 3: so improves advisor's own grades. So let me just say 777 00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:25,480 Speaker 3: that again, it's not the students getting advice who are 778 00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:28,799 Speaker 3: getting better grades. It's the students giving advice who are 779 00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:32,319 Speaker 3: getting better grades, which I think is just absolutely fascinating. 780 00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:37,120 Speaker 3: And the psychology there is that when you're invited to 781 00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:40,480 Speaker 3: coach someone else on how to achieve a goal that 782 00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:44,000 Speaker 3: you also are trying to pursue, like boosting your grades 783 00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:48,760 Speaker 3: in school, one, it improves your confidence. If somebody's asking 784 00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:50,720 Speaker 3: me for advice, I must not be such a dofist. 785 00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:53,440 Speaker 3: There must be something I could say that's useful here, right, Like, Okay, 786 00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:55,680 Speaker 3: I guess I'm not going to be a straight SA 787 00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:57,759 Speaker 3: student forever. I've got something to offer. 788 00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:00,560 Speaker 1: Say, somehow you've figured out out of money. 789 00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:05,440 Speaker 3: You guys are making such such great decisions now that 790 00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:06,120 Speaker 3: you're giving. 791 00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:07,879 Speaker 2: Advice, I know you have a window in our soul 792 00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:09,120 Speaker 2: now no. 793 00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:12,680 Speaker 3: So that there's magic there. And then the second ingredient 794 00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:15,520 Speaker 3: is you have to introspect now deeply about what might 795 00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:17,799 Speaker 3: work for someone else. You're going to think about things 796 00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:20,160 Speaker 3: that would work for you too, of course, because that's 797 00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:22,200 Speaker 3: what you have access to. So you're going to think 798 00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:24,520 Speaker 3: deeply because now I have to tell somebody something, so 799 00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:26,520 Speaker 3: I've got to come up with some answers, and then 800 00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:30,000 Speaker 3: then you're going to say it out loud to another human. 801 00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:32,280 Speaker 3: And when you do that, there's something called the saying 802 00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:35,160 Speaker 3: is believing effect, where you know, I wouldn't be giving 803 00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:37,080 Speaker 3: this advice if I didn't think it was good advice, 804 00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:39,520 Speaker 3: and it'd be totally a bit critical if I didn't 805 00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:42,800 Speaker 3: take it. So all those things combined are a really 806 00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:46,759 Speaker 3: powerful force to help people achieve better results when they 807 00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:50,400 Speaker 3: give advice to someone about a goal they too hope 808 00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:51,759 Speaker 3: to succeed on. 809 00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:55,040 Speaker 1: Absolutely, I mean truly, this is something that has had 810 00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:58,400 Speaker 1: a positive impact on both Sure and Joel's finances. The 811 00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:01,719 Speaker 1: ability to there's there's a degree of responsibility. Not only 812 00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:03,560 Speaker 1: are we just posting it on social media that we've 813 00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:05,880 Speaker 1: got these goals. It's like, we've got a podcast, you know, 814 00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:09,000 Speaker 1: that is also documenting all these different strategies and tips. 815 00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:11,719 Speaker 2: And we were talking about donor of ice funds in 816 00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:14,439 Speaker 2: November and I was like, Man, I know about these 817 00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:17,040 Speaker 2: things and I believe that they're good, but now I'm 818 00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:18,640 Speaker 2: gonna open my own them. 819 00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:21,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. And when it comes to our listeners as well, 820 00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:24,480 Speaker 1: I think, like, what's so great about this is we 821 00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:27,799 Speaker 1: often are encouraging our listeners just to start talking about money. 822 00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:29,520 Speaker 1: That's the biggest reason why we started the show five 823 00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:31,719 Speaker 1: years ago. We just wanted it to be something that 824 00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:37,480 Speaker 1: did not feel like was unspeakable. And even with our listeners, 825 00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:39,919 Speaker 1: as you start hearing about what you should be doing 826 00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:42,080 Speaker 1: with your money, but just taking this first steps and 827 00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:45,240 Speaker 1: talking about it with somebody else gets the conversation started 828 00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:48,120 Speaker 1: pretty soon. Yes, they might ask you a question and 829 00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:50,120 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, it sort of feels like you're 830 00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:52,719 Speaker 1: a teacher and you always hear the saying that there's 831 00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:55,600 Speaker 1: no faster way to learn something than to actually teach it, 832 00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:58,080 Speaker 1: And just like you said, the saying is believing effect, 833 00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:00,839 Speaker 1: I think the same thing applies to that's. I mean, 834 00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:03,799 Speaker 1: we'd love seeing that that happen with our listeners as well. 835 00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:06,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I want to know too, Katie, because like 836 00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:10,040 Speaker 2: some of us are inevitably going to fail at some 837 00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:11,480 Speaker 2: of the goals we set, right, none of us is 838 00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:14,200 Speaker 2: ever perfect. We just accomplish everything we set out to 839 00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:18,400 Speaker 2: do in record time. So how do we recover from failure. 840 00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:20,640 Speaker 2: Let's say someone set their goal to max out there 841 00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:22,920 Speaker 2: roth Ira last year, but they fell short, Like, how 842 00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:25,160 Speaker 2: should they approach that goal moving forward now in twenty 843 00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:25,760 Speaker 2: twenty three. 844 00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:28,319 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a great question. There's a couple of things 845 00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:30,759 Speaker 3: that research has to say about that. One thing that 846 00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:33,520 Speaker 3: I think is really important is an insight about the 847 00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:37,399 Speaker 3: way we code failure and it comes from work by 848 00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:42,160 Speaker 3: Carol Dweck at Stanford University. She's studied something called growth 849 00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:45,279 Speaker 3: mindset and she compares it to a fixed mindset, and 850 00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:50,920 Speaker 3: they're basically two extreme ways of thinking about failure and success. 851 00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:54,560 Speaker 3: In a growth mindset, the way you perceive the world, 852 00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:56,640 Speaker 3: or the way you perceive your skill at anything, whether 853 00:41:56,680 --> 00:42:01,160 Speaker 3: it's investing or your intelligence, is that it's not a 854 00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:04,279 Speaker 3: fixed set of abilities you're born with that you can 855 00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:07,040 Speaker 3: learn and grow and develop over time. But if you 856 00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:10,560 Speaker 3: have a fixed mindset, you think about things just the 857 00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:13,640 Speaker 3: opposite that you're sort of born with some innate abilities 858 00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:17,320 Speaker 3: and whatever they are, they are. And so these two 859 00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:20,440 Speaker 3: perspectives that people can take on the world lead to 860 00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:23,640 Speaker 3: really different ways of interpreting failure. If you have a 861 00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:26,520 Speaker 3: fixed mindset and something goes badly for you, you fall down 862 00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:29,799 Speaker 3: on a goal, you're going to interpret that as diagnostic 863 00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:32,279 Speaker 3: of your capabilities, and it's going to be really discouraging. 864 00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:35,000 Speaker 3: But if you have a growth mindset and you recognize 865 00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:37,919 Speaker 3: the truth, which is that in almost everything in life, 866 00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:39,600 Speaker 3: maybe with the exception of your height, you have the 867 00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:44,919 Speaker 3: ability to improve over time and with learning, then you're 868 00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:48,480 Speaker 3: going to interpret that failure as input and an opportunity 869 00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:50,440 Speaker 3: to learn and grow and do better next time. And 870 00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:54,120 Speaker 3: it turns out these which mindset you use, it's it's malleable. 871 00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:57,120 Speaker 3: There's research showing that we can teach people to have 872 00:42:57,200 --> 00:43:00,480 Speaker 3: a growth mindset by pointing out that basically everything in 873 00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:03,600 Speaker 3: the world you can get better with practice and effort 874 00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:07,040 Speaker 3: and learning, and to the extent that you can be 875 00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:10,640 Speaker 3: deliberate about adopting a growth mindset than when you fall 876 00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:13,880 Speaker 3: short of your goals, which inevitably that's what goal. If 877 00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:15,880 Speaker 3: you're setting goals correctly by the way, you should be 878 00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:17,759 Speaker 3: falling short of some of your goals. You want to 879 00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:19,960 Speaker 3: always stretch yourself with your goals. That is what the 880 00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:22,400 Speaker 3: research shows. If you're setting wimpy goals and you always succeed, 881 00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:25,400 Speaker 3: you are not pushing yourself enough and you're you're not 882 00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:29,120 Speaker 3: getting enough out of yourself. So when you stumble though, 883 00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:31,560 Speaker 3: think about it with a growth mindset and say, what 884 00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:33,880 Speaker 3: did I learn from this? Not like, oh no, this 885 00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:35,680 Speaker 3: means I could never do it, but rather, you know, 886 00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:37,880 Speaker 3: what could I do differently next time? What was the 887 00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:40,480 Speaker 3: obstacle that tripped me up? How could I adopt a 888 00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:42,959 Speaker 3: new strategy so that in the future when that same 889 00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:46,200 Speaker 3: obstacle gets in my way, I'll have a better outcome. 890 00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:49,400 Speaker 3: So I'd take growth mindset approach to all goals is 891 00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:52,759 Speaker 3: really important. And then the other thing is based on 892 00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:56,720 Speaker 3: research by my colleague Mursa Sharif at the Wharton School, 893 00:43:56,719 --> 00:44:00,320 Speaker 3: who's shown that when we set stretch goals for ourselves, 894 00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:02,120 Speaker 3: which is the ideal, Right, you know, I want to 895 00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:03,919 Speaker 3: go to the gym seven days a week is better 896 00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:05,279 Speaker 3: than I want to go to the gym two days 897 00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:09,040 Speaker 3: a week. It's more motivating, you're more likely to push yourself. 898 00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:12,279 Speaker 3: But when we do that, anticipating that we're going to 899 00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:15,239 Speaker 3: need to have the ability to give ourselves some get 900 00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:18,080 Speaker 3: out of jail free cards she calls them, emergency reserves 901 00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:21,160 Speaker 3: can be really useful. So when you set tough goals, 902 00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:23,799 Speaker 3: that is ideal, but it's also ideal to make sure 903 00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:26,200 Speaker 3: that you let yourself off the hook not a lot. 904 00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:27,959 Speaker 3: Because if you say, like, oh, you know, I'm gonna 905 00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:29,319 Speaker 3: go to the gym seven days a week and I 906 00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:32,960 Speaker 3: have six emergencies that I can take, then well, that's 907 00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:35,239 Speaker 3: not going to get you very far. But it's better 908 00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:36,840 Speaker 3: to say I'm going to aim for seven days a 909 00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:39,400 Speaker 3: week of this this behavior and I give myself a 910 00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:42,080 Speaker 3: little wigger room too to get out of jail free 911 00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:43,560 Speaker 3: than to say I'm going to try to go five 912 00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:45,440 Speaker 3: days a week. And the reason is you're not going 913 00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:47,719 Speaker 3: to want to take those get out of jail free 914 00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:49,520 Speaker 3: cards if you can avoid it. So you're likely to 915 00:44:49,520 --> 00:44:52,640 Speaker 3: push yourself really hard. But if you do have a miss, 916 00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:56,560 Speaker 3: you won't give up, and you'll still keep pushing to 917 00:44:56,640 --> 00:44:57,640 Speaker 3: do quite well. 918 00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:00,920 Speaker 1: Nonetheless, won't scrap it all together. Yeah, from throwing everything 919 00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:04,520 Speaker 1: out the window to having those those doovers or those mulligans, like. 920 00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:06,200 Speaker 2: You're sick for a few days, and like it gives 921 00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:08,799 Speaker 2: you the grace to say, Okay, that's cool, Like that's 922 00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:10,600 Speaker 2: a reason to miss the jim. It's a decent reason 923 00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:11,600 Speaker 2: to not be able. 924 00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:12,880 Speaker 1: To make it. And I mean, I don't think we're 925 00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:14,200 Speaker 1: going to have time to touch on it. But you 926 00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:17,720 Speaker 1: talk about elastic habits and how not being overly rigid, 927 00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:20,640 Speaker 1: how important that is to keep us on track. I 928 00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:23,040 Speaker 1: think the same thing applies with sort of these doovers 929 00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:26,080 Speaker 1: as well. But Katie, Yeah, what about using peer pressure? 930 00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:29,799 Speaker 1: Peer pressure social relationships? I think that there are different 931 00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:31,920 Speaker 1: ways that we can use those to our advantage as well, 932 00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:35,200 Speaker 1: because it's not just middle schoolers that feel that kind 933 00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:37,440 Speaker 1: of pressure, you know, like we're all social animals, and 934 00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:40,239 Speaker 1: so how can we harness that reality to propel us 935 00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:41,640 Speaker 1: forward with our financial goals? 936 00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:46,719 Speaker 3: Yeah? I love this topic. It's so important. So we 937 00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:50,640 Speaker 3: are incredibly influenced by the people who surround us. They 938 00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:55,879 Speaker 3: show us what's possible, They shape our beliefs about how 939 00:45:55,920 --> 00:45:58,720 Speaker 3: we should be behaving. One of my favorite studies showing 940 00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:02,600 Speaker 3: this is just looking at the college roommate you're randomly 941 00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:05,040 Speaker 3: assigned as a freshman, and shows that if you end 942 00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:09,160 Speaker 3: up with a roommate who was basically a better student historically, 943 00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:12,480 Speaker 3: you get better grades than if you end up with 944 00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:17,600 Speaker 3: a roommate who had sort of less uh less studiousness historically. So, 945 00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:20,239 Speaker 3: you know, think about the logic of it. Your your 946 00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:23,960 Speaker 3: roommate goes out and parties every Thursday and Friday. You think, well, 947 00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:25,719 Speaker 3: that's the thing to do in college. I should be 948 00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:28,640 Speaker 3: partying all the time, versus your roommate every Thursday and 949 00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:32,680 Speaker 3: Friday stays in with a book, makes you know, flash cards. 950 00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:35,279 Speaker 3: You're thinking, gosh, I guess to succeed in college, I 951 00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:37,760 Speaker 3: should be staying in Thursdays and Fridays and making flash cards. 952 00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:39,799 Speaker 1: So we're havy really like, man, my roommate is a 953 00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:41,000 Speaker 1: nerd and I got to get a new. 954 00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:47,359 Speaker 3: Any extreme that also happens, But on average, you're right, 955 00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:51,520 Speaker 3: it's yes, there there can be. There could be situations 956 00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:53,879 Speaker 3: where you're like, God, you're so crazy that you don't 957 00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:56,799 Speaker 3: aren't influenced by people, But on average, I'm sure you 958 00:46:56,840 --> 00:46:59,120 Speaker 3: If there is too much of a disparity, it turns 959 00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:02,759 Speaker 3: folks off that way, yeah, I mean in that way 960 00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:03,760 Speaker 3: it can kind of backfire. 961 00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:07,000 Speaker 1: And so it's it's so important to surround yourself with likes, 962 00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:09,520 Speaker 1: you know, individuals who have something in common with you, 963 00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:11,560 Speaker 1: but who who aren't like at the very top of 964 00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:13,520 Speaker 1: their game, because when there is that golf, it can 965 00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:15,480 Speaker 1: like if I'm working out with the route, it can 966 00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:15,960 Speaker 1: prevents you. 967 00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:18,600 Speaker 2: If it's going to it's going to be disappearing, right, 968 00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:20,200 Speaker 2: it's going to make me. 969 00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:22,319 Speaker 3: So you want someone who stretches you a little bit 970 00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:24,239 Speaker 3: because they're a little bit ahead of you. But it's 971 00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:26,799 Speaker 3: not hopeless. It's not a hopeless golf. And that's also 972 00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:29,799 Speaker 3: what this research on college roommates showed was you want 973 00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:33,120 Speaker 3: somebody who is was a stronger student than you ideally 974 00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:34,640 Speaker 3: as your roommate. But you don't want, you know, the 975 00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:38,360 Speaker 3: valedictorian if you were a straight student, because now there's 976 00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:40,560 Speaker 3: there's such a golf that you can't even relate. And 977 00:47:40,719 --> 00:47:42,680 Speaker 3: like you said, you say, hey, this person's a nerd. 978 00:47:42,719 --> 00:47:44,479 Speaker 3: I'm going out every night. I got to get away 979 00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:48,279 Speaker 3: from them. So that but it is important to cultivate 980 00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:52,160 Speaker 3: if you if you have big goals in any part 981 00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:55,880 Speaker 3: of your life, trying to cultivate social relationships with people 982 00:47:56,080 --> 00:47:58,919 Speaker 3: who share those goals and who are frankly a little 983 00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:01,239 Speaker 3: bit ahead of you and from whom you can learn 984 00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:04,600 Speaker 3: is incredibly valuable. They can be a support group. You 985 00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:07,439 Speaker 3: can also offer them advice, which we already talked about 986 00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:09,080 Speaker 3: the power of advice giving rate. You could talk about 987 00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:10,880 Speaker 3: those shared goals and you'll find you actually do have 988 00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:14,400 Speaker 3: something to offer. But you can do what my collaborator 989 00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:17,680 Speaker 3: Angela Duckworth, and also Katie Mare and I I'll call 990 00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:20,520 Speaker 3: copy and paste, which is actually we show that when 991 00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:22,920 Speaker 3: you deliberately coach people to go out and look for 992 00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:26,319 Speaker 3: friends who are using clever tactics to achieve a goal 993 00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:28,600 Speaker 3: they too want to achieve, and say go find what 994 00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:33,279 Speaker 3: they're doing and try to emulate it, there's benefits to 995 00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:36,040 Speaker 3: that people somehow, even though they naturally soak up some 996 00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:38,880 Speaker 3: of what's around them, there's still something left on the 997 00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:41,799 Speaker 3: table because just that nudge to copy and paste leads 998 00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:46,759 Speaker 3: people to go looking for mimicable behaviors. And that is 999 00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:50,799 Speaker 3: really important and valuable because other people have approached and 1000 00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:53,000 Speaker 3: tried to pursue most of the goals that you want 1001 00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:55,160 Speaker 3: to achieve, and some of them have found a degree 1002 00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:58,080 Speaker 3: of success, and particularly people in your social network, they 1003 00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:00,640 Speaker 3: have more in common with you. Their lifestyle might resemble 1004 00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:04,319 Speaker 3: yours in many ways, so they probably the things that 1005 00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:07,560 Speaker 3: they're trying may be quite effective for someone like you too, 1006 00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:10,279 Speaker 3: So ask and try to figure out. What can you 1007 00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:11,800 Speaker 3: learn from others who've succeeded. 1008 00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:14,880 Speaker 2: No need to reinvent the wheels star from scratch, not 1009 00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:15,720 Speaker 2: rocket science. 1010 00:49:15,719 --> 00:49:18,239 Speaker 3: But we often forget it right, like we forget, hey, 1011 00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:20,920 Speaker 3: somebody else already did this, and I should go collect 1012 00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:23,160 Speaker 3: that data like we're used to, you know, trying to 1013 00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:26,000 Speaker 3: learn from experts in so much of life. You know, 1014 00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:28,200 Speaker 3: I teach it a business school. People go look at 1015 00:49:28,239 --> 00:49:30,680 Speaker 3: an accounting textbook when they have to figure out accounting. 1016 00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:33,080 Speaker 3: But sometimes with goal setting, we forget that there are 1017 00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:35,520 Speaker 3: other people who've come before us, and that there's expertise 1018 00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:36,080 Speaker 3: there too. 1019 00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:38,239 Speaker 2: For sure, and you don't have to just figure it 1020 00:49:38,239 --> 00:49:40,360 Speaker 2: out all on your own, and other people are a 1021 00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:42,920 Speaker 2: great resource. Katie, thank you so much for joining us today. 1022 00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:45,439 Speaker 2: Not only do you have your book, How to Change, 1023 00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:47,680 Speaker 2: which you've also got a podcast, You've got a newsletter 1024 00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:50,279 Speaker 2: in addition to all your work being a professor, So 1025 00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:52,279 Speaker 2: where can folks learn more about you and what you're 1026 00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:52,560 Speaker 2: up to. 1027 00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:55,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, thanks for asking and thanks for having me. The 1028 00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:58,719 Speaker 3: best place to find more about me is at Katiemilkman 1029 00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:01,360 Speaker 3: dot com. It's Katie with a while like Katie Perry, 1030 00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:05,520 Speaker 3: and you can subscribe for Milkman delivers if you so 1031 00:50:05,719 --> 00:50:09,680 Speaker 3: choose to get monthly tidbits or yeah, listen to my podcast, 1032 00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:12,440 Speaker 3: check out my book, or read the nerdy research papers 1033 00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:14,960 Speaker 3: if that's your thing, that's. 1034 00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:17,360 Speaker 1: Definitely my thing. I love it all. Katie, thank you 1035 00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:19,520 Speaker 1: so much for joining us today. We really appreciate it. 1036 00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:21,000 Speaker 3: Thanks for having me. It was a blast. 1037 00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:24,239 Speaker 1: Well all right, man, I only wish we just had 1038 00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:27,120 Speaker 1: more time to actually talk with Katie. Yeah. 1039 00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:29,200 Speaker 2: Well, maybe our new goal in twenty twenty three is 1040 00:50:29,239 --> 00:50:31,360 Speaker 2: that our interviews are more Joe Rogan lending line. 1041 00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:34,279 Speaker 1: From even going one hour, I think sometimes as long, 1042 00:50:34,320 --> 00:50:35,640 Speaker 1: but yeah, maybe we should take it to like two 1043 00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:40,080 Speaker 1: four four hours long. Now, this really was an awesome 1044 00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:42,120 Speaker 1: conversation though, that we had with Katie. What was your 1045 00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:44,040 Speaker 1: big takeaway from this conversation? 1046 00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:46,440 Speaker 2: And she's smart, she's got a depth of knowledge that's fascinating, 1047 00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:49,360 Speaker 2: but she also researched all the different examples and stories 1048 00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:51,600 Speaker 2: as you and I were talking about before we started 1049 00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:54,320 Speaker 2: chat with Katie. She not only has the head knowledge, 1050 00:50:54,320 --> 00:50:56,520 Speaker 2: but she's done all this practical work with companies that 1051 00:50:56,600 --> 00:50:58,960 Speaker 2: gives you the ability to connect it to everyday human actions, 1052 00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:00,399 Speaker 2: which I think is super helpful what you. 1053 00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:02,960 Speaker 1: Get from consulting, Like, for sure, you have to make 1054 00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:06,799 Speaker 1: that connection. Otherwise you're not really a consultant, right, You're 1055 00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:07,440 Speaker 1: just a professor. 1056 00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:09,080 Speaker 2: You're just a research exactly. They're like, I would have 1057 00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:10,680 Speaker 2: taken your class if that's what I wanted. I want 1058 00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:13,400 Speaker 2: the practical applications of this. But I think my biggest 1059 00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:15,879 Speaker 2: takeaway was when she talked about making it fun and 1060 00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:19,360 Speaker 2: that you know, even if progress takes longer, you're going 1061 00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:21,719 Speaker 2: to be more likely to stick to it. And I think, yeah, 1062 00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:23,400 Speaker 2: when we're talking about budgeting, she said, do it over 1063 00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:24,719 Speaker 2: a class of wine or something like. That's the kind 1064 00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:28,360 Speaker 2: of advice we've given over the years, like, incorporate something 1065 00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:31,800 Speaker 2: fun into that money management. Set little rewards for yourself 1066 00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:34,399 Speaker 2: as you do make gains, as you do accomplish those 1067 00:51:34,440 --> 00:51:36,760 Speaker 2: smaller goals that you've set out for yourself. It doesn't 1068 00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:39,239 Speaker 2: need to be all drudgery and Ultimately the goal is 1069 00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:41,719 Speaker 2: that you're you know, hitting on all cylinders. Your your 1070 00:51:41,800 --> 00:51:44,240 Speaker 2: budget reflects the biggest goals that you have for your life, 1071 00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:46,440 Speaker 2: and so that when you achieve those things, it's like 1072 00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:49,759 Speaker 2: it's fun and it's energizing. But the more that we 1073 00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:53,839 Speaker 2: can make what seems boring to be fine. Like when 1074 00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:56,720 Speaker 2: I thought about working out, Matt, you decided for CrossFit, 1075 00:51:56,760 --> 00:51:58,600 Speaker 2: I said, you know what sounds fun to me? 1076 00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:00,760 Speaker 1: A water rowing massure that's actually splashy. 1077 00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:01,600 Speaker 3: Yeah. 1078 00:52:01,719 --> 00:52:04,120 Speaker 2: I wanted to sound fun while I was working out, 1079 00:52:04,160 --> 00:52:05,080 Speaker 2: and I was like, this is going to be like 1080 00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:07,160 Speaker 2: kind of a whole body thing, but it's also there's 1081 00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:09,719 Speaker 2: something enjoy I find enjoyable about it, or riding my 1082 00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:12,560 Speaker 2: bike on the path and then up our local mountains 1083 00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:13,160 Speaker 2: like that kind of thing. 1084 00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:15,040 Speaker 1: I was curious, though, did you Did you make it 1085 00:52:15,080 --> 00:52:16,799 Speaker 1: fun though, in the way that you were able to 1086 00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:22,319 Speaker 1: temptation bundle like I assume I have. Well, actually I do. 1087 00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:24,200 Speaker 2: I listened to a podcasts or music typically when I'm 1088 00:52:24,239 --> 00:52:27,000 Speaker 2: working all but like I just tried to set out 1089 00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:30,200 Speaker 2: instead of signing up for the most hardcore workout I could, 1090 00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:31,960 Speaker 2: I found something. I was like, I know this is 1091 00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:34,200 Speaker 2: going to be less intense, right, and I'm not going 1092 00:52:34,200 --> 00:52:35,800 Speaker 2: to see results as quickly, but it's going to be 1093 00:52:35,840 --> 00:52:38,120 Speaker 2: the thing that I find enjoyable. I feel like I 1094 00:52:38,160 --> 00:52:40,200 Speaker 2: can stick to it seem more appealing to you. Yeah, 1095 00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:41,880 Speaker 2: and I think that's really important. I think if it 1096 00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:45,000 Speaker 2: allows you, it's like playing a game of basketball versus 1097 00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:46,560 Speaker 2: going for a run. I'll sign up for a game 1098 00:52:46,560 --> 00:52:48,319 Speaker 2: of basketball any day of the week, but I'm not 1099 00:52:48,320 --> 00:52:49,759 Speaker 2: going to go on a five mile run, Like just 1100 00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:52,879 Speaker 2: not going to happen. I hate it, and so find 1101 00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:54,640 Speaker 2: the thing that you can stick to. Know yourself a 1102 00:52:54,680 --> 00:52:55,080 Speaker 2: little bit. 1103 00:52:55,719 --> 00:52:57,160 Speaker 1: That's so true, man, This is like one of the 1104 00:52:57,160 --> 00:52:59,320 Speaker 1: ways where you are so different because for me, like 1105 00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:01,359 Speaker 1: hearing a five my like up the mountain or something, 1106 00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:04,799 Speaker 1: I'm like, oh yeah, that sounds awesome. Basketball not so 1107 00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:09,759 Speaker 1: much jammed, way too many fingers playing basketball. So my 1108 00:53:09,760 --> 00:53:12,040 Speaker 1: big takeaway, I'm going to do something completely new, which 1109 00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:14,359 Speaker 1: we've never done with an interview before. But I want 1110 00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:17,000 Speaker 1: to say something like literally entirely new. This is something 1111 00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:19,080 Speaker 1: we didn't get to but in her book as well. 1112 00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:21,280 Speaker 1: I just want to be able to present more information 1113 00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:24,120 Speaker 1: because Katie has so many great ideas, but she talks 1114 00:53:24,160 --> 00:53:27,719 Speaker 1: about how these different strategies, these different tactics, they're not 1115 00:53:27,840 --> 00:53:30,359 Speaker 1: something that you can oftentimes just do once and then 1116 00:53:30,400 --> 00:53:33,080 Speaker 1: completely forget about it and have your problem solved. And 1117 00:53:33,239 --> 00:53:36,560 Speaker 1: oftentimes some of these strategies they may not work as 1118 00:53:36,560 --> 00:53:38,880 Speaker 1: well as they used to maybe when you first started. 1119 00:53:39,160 --> 00:53:41,920 Speaker 1: And so she had talked about when you do see 1120 00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:45,160 Speaker 1: some growth stalling out, just consider new ways to reach 1121 00:53:45,160 --> 00:53:48,160 Speaker 1: your goals. Because a chore for one person, like running 1122 00:53:48,160 --> 00:53:51,560 Speaker 1: five miles, that might be fun for somebody else like me. 1123 00:53:52,520 --> 00:53:54,239 Speaker 1: And so I don't know that that really stuck with 1124 00:53:54,239 --> 00:53:56,479 Speaker 1: me as well, because she was encouraging folks to think 1125 00:53:56,520 --> 00:53:59,680 Speaker 1: about these different problems we're faced with more as a 1126 00:53:59,680 --> 00:54:03,000 Speaker 1: doz rather than a rash. So, for instance, like doctors 1127 00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:05,880 Speaker 1: wouldn't give insulin to a diabetic for a one month 1128 00:54:06,360 --> 00:54:09,239 Speaker 1: and then be like, all right, you're set your heel. Now, 1129 00:54:09,239 --> 00:54:11,319 Speaker 1: that's not how it works. It's something ongoing that you 1130 00:54:11,360 --> 00:54:14,520 Speaker 1: have to revisit. And so in the same way, that 1131 00:54:14,719 --> 00:54:16,799 Speaker 1: is how you would treat a rash, you know, something 1132 00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:18,880 Speaker 1: that is more temporary. But oftentimes with some of these 1133 00:54:18,960 --> 00:54:21,480 Speaker 1: larger goals, especially the financial goals that we have in 1134 00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:24,040 Speaker 1: our lives, think about it like a disease. It's this 1135 00:54:24,120 --> 00:54:25,799 Speaker 1: thing that is going to be with you for a 1136 00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:27,920 Speaker 1: really long time, and it is up to you, like 1137 00:54:27,960 --> 00:54:30,480 Speaker 1: you said, Joel, to know yourself and to adapt and 1138 00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:32,600 Speaker 1: figure out how it is that you're going to accomplish 1139 00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:36,560 Speaker 1: that goal because oftentimes there isn't somebody outside of you. 1140 00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:39,319 Speaker 1: There isn't that external pressure who is encouraging you to 1141 00:54:39,360 --> 00:54:41,360 Speaker 1: reach that goal. Oftentimes, like I mean, this is what 1142 00:54:41,440 --> 00:54:42,080 Speaker 1: Katy talk, you. 1143 00:54:42,040 --> 00:54:43,960 Speaker 2: Should try to think that happen because that's a helpful 1144 00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:46,080 Speaker 2: way to see it is helpful, but oftentimes, like these 1145 00:54:46,080 --> 00:54:47,279 Speaker 2: are internal things that we. 1146 00:54:47,239 --> 00:54:49,399 Speaker 1: Have to figure out ourselves, and so I just found 1147 00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:49,880 Speaker 1: that really helpful. 1148 00:54:50,120 --> 00:54:52,920 Speaker 2: Disease of money management will be with you forever, but 1149 00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:55,040 Speaker 2: we want you to be able to implement some of 1150 00:54:55,080 --> 00:54:57,520 Speaker 2: the things that Katie talked about on this episode so 1151 00:54:57,600 --> 00:54:59,680 Speaker 2: that you can stick to the goals that you have 1152 00:54:59,800 --> 00:55:03,239 Speaker 2: just created. Like now is a brilliant time. It's that 1153 00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:06,080 Speaker 2: the fresh start effect that Katie talked about. Now is 1154 00:55:06,520 --> 00:55:08,120 Speaker 2: the best time. And one of the things that I've 1155 00:55:08,160 --> 00:55:10,040 Speaker 2: heard Katie say before too. She didn't say today, but 1156 00:55:10,160 --> 00:55:14,120 Speaker 2: like so many New Year's resolutions fail, but there's a 1157 00:55:14,160 --> 00:55:16,200 Speaker 2: huge percentage something like twenty percent to stick to it. 1158 00:55:16,200 --> 00:55:18,000 Speaker 2: We should take the positive side of that and say, 1159 00:55:18,320 --> 00:55:20,239 Speaker 2: you know what, there's no better time of year that 1160 00:55:20,280 --> 00:55:22,799 Speaker 2: more people make lasting change than right now. And so 1161 00:55:22,920 --> 00:55:25,319 Speaker 2: hopefully you can incorporate some of the things Katie talked 1162 00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:28,719 Speaker 2: about and make some lasting change moving forward when it 1163 00:55:28,760 --> 00:55:31,239 Speaker 2: comes to your personal finances, and yeah, focus focus. 1164 00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:32,360 Speaker 1: On the brighter side of things for sure. 1165 00:55:32,440 --> 00:55:34,400 Speaker 2: Well, let's mention the beer that we had speaking of 1166 00:55:34,440 --> 00:55:36,800 Speaker 2: the brighter side of things that we enjoyed on this episode. 1167 00:55:36,840 --> 00:55:40,360 Speaker 2: This one was called helf of Ee's Guy by Mutation Brewing. 1168 00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:42,200 Speaker 2: It's a heff of iison And yeah, Matt, what were 1169 00:55:42,239 --> 00:55:43,600 Speaker 2: your thoughts on this beer? 1170 00:55:43,880 --> 00:55:47,160 Speaker 1: It was great? Yeah, this was another delightful beer by 1171 00:55:47,280 --> 00:55:50,200 Speaker 1: the guys by Jack and friends over there at Mutation. 1172 00:55:50,640 --> 00:55:55,120 Speaker 1: But yeah, light, pillowy wheat beer. It had a little 1173 00:55:55,120 --> 00:55:57,360 Speaker 1: bit of sweetness. I feel like maybe maybe for a 1174 00:55:57,400 --> 00:56:00,160 Speaker 1: hef of Ason, it was a touch sweeter than some 1175 00:56:00,200 --> 00:56:02,040 Speaker 1: of the ones out there, Like we've had some that 1176 00:56:02,080 --> 00:56:04,799 Speaker 1: are quite dry, But this is the kind of beer 1177 00:56:04,800 --> 00:56:08,040 Speaker 1: I would one hundred percent drink with a pizza in particular, 1178 00:56:08,120 --> 00:56:10,520 Speaker 1: one that's got maybe some some spicier sausage on it. 1179 00:56:10,560 --> 00:56:12,919 Speaker 1: And you're looking for something to cool you down. Yeah, 1180 00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:14,319 Speaker 1: this is really if. 1181 00:56:14,280 --> 00:56:17,560 Speaker 2: You're normally in the pilsner crowd, Like if you're like Budweiser, 1182 00:56:17,600 --> 00:56:19,880 Speaker 2: bud Light, that's what I drink occasionally. 1183 00:56:19,960 --> 00:56:21,960 Speaker 1: Blue Moon. This is like the better version of. 1184 00:56:21,920 --> 00:56:23,640 Speaker 2: Blue Moon kind of thing, right, And like if you want, 1185 00:56:23,920 --> 00:56:26,560 Speaker 2: if you want a helf of Isson, move into that 1186 00:56:26,600 --> 00:56:28,839 Speaker 2: craft beer realm and you haven't really gotten there. Find 1187 00:56:28,840 --> 00:56:30,520 Speaker 2: a good helf of Isson from a local brewery. That's 1188 00:56:30,560 --> 00:56:32,960 Speaker 2: a good thing to start off with. I still remember 1189 00:56:32,960 --> 00:56:35,879 Speaker 2: one of my first Kraft beers was Winmer Brothers in Portland, Oregon. 1190 00:56:35,920 --> 00:56:36,480 Speaker 1: Half of Ison. 1191 00:56:36,640 --> 00:56:38,040 Speaker 2: They make one of the better ones out there. This 1192 00:56:38,080 --> 00:56:41,239 Speaker 2: one wasn't shock Top, No, it was not. This one 1193 00:56:41,360 --> 00:56:43,600 Speaker 2: rivaled it though, I think I really like this beer. 1194 00:56:43,840 --> 00:56:45,839 Speaker 2: Even though helf of issons are not my go to style, 1195 00:56:45,920 --> 00:56:48,359 Speaker 2: this was a good version of it. So exactly, that's 1196 00:56:48,360 --> 00:56:50,880 Speaker 2: going to do it for this episode. For show notes 1197 00:56:50,920 --> 00:56:53,040 Speaker 2: links to some of the resources that we mentioned that 1198 00:56:53,120 --> 00:56:55,560 Speaker 2: Katie mentioned on this episode, you can find those up 1199 00:56:55,560 --> 00:56:57,520 Speaker 2: on our website at howtomoney dot com. 1200 00:56:57,560 --> 00:56:59,200 Speaker 1: That's right, man, So that's going to be it until 1201 00:56:59,239 --> 00:57:01,919 Speaker 1: next time. Friends Out, Best Friends Out,