1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:14,960 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio. Hello, and Welcome to the podcast. I'm Tracy V. 3 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:18,560 Speaker 1: Wilson and I'm Holly Frye. Last year, we did an 4 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:23,600 Speaker 1: episode on artist Tyrus Wong, who was instrumental in developing 5 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: the look and feel for Disney's Bambi, along with creating 6 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 1: just a prolific amount of other really beautiful work across 7 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: multiple media. Wong had been brought to the United States 8 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:37,840 Speaker 1: as a child at a time when the Chinese Exclusion 9 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 1: Act banned immigration to the United States from China, and 10 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:44,160 Speaker 1: one of the things we talked about in that episode 11 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:49,040 Speaker 1: was how a Supreme Court case called United States versus 12 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:53,560 Speaker 1: Wong kim arc had affected how the US could enforce 13 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:58,279 Speaker 1: the Chinese Exclusion Act because the court had found that 14 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:01,520 Speaker 1: people who were born in the un to Chinese parents 15 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 1: were US citizens. When we did that previous episode, I 16 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:10,080 Speaker 1: said that United States versus Wan kim Ark was another 17 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:12,680 Speaker 1: topic that was on my episode list, and we got 18 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:16,039 Speaker 1: a number of emails from listeners saying that they were 19 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:20,319 Speaker 1: looking forward to getting that one. Obviously, this has become 20 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 1: newly relevant in light of the Executive Order on Birthright 21 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 1: citizenship issued by President Donald Trump on inauguration Day, so 22 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 1: I moved it to the top of the list. I 23 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:35,759 Speaker 1: just want to note we are currently at a place 24 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 1: where we are writing and recording episodes a couple of 25 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:42,920 Speaker 1: weeks before they come out. Honestly, I could not even 26 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 1: keep up with all the news and commentary about this 27 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 1: executive order as I was researching and writing the episode, 28 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:53,920 Speaker 1: and we cannot predict what might happen with it between 29 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 1: writing and recording the episode and when it actually hits 30 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:01,280 Speaker 1: your ears in a couple of weeks. This is not 31 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 1: going into any kind of detail about the executive order 32 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:08,640 Speaker 1: or the constitutional arguments around the executive order. This is 33 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:13,920 Speaker 1: about the historical Supreme Court case. So to talk about 34 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:17,080 Speaker 1: the U. S. Supreme Court's decision in United States versus 35 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:19,600 Speaker 1: wonkim Ark, we need to work our way back a 36 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:23,760 Speaker 1: few steps. The Constitution is the supreme law of the 37 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 1: United States, and it forms the foundation of the federal government. 38 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:30,640 Speaker 1: When it went into effect in seventeen eighty nine, it 39 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 1: didn't explicitly define what a citizen was or how a 40 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:38,919 Speaker 1: person became a citizen. At the same time, it contained 41 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:43,120 Speaker 1: language that made it clear that citizenship existed and was important. 42 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 1: Article two, Section one said that quote no person except 43 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:50,960 Speaker 1: a natural born citizen or a citizen of the United 44 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 1: States at the time of the adoption of this Constitution 45 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 1: shall be eligible to the office of President. Article four 46 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 1: also included the clause quote, the citizens of each State 47 00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 1: shall be entitled to all privileges and immunities of citizens 48 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 1: in the several states. The Constitution didn't define citizen or 49 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 1: natural born, but for the most part, the way citizenship 50 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:20,959 Speaker 1: worked in the United States was following ideas from English 51 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:25,960 Speaker 1: common law. Although there was some nuance around who was 52 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:29,120 Speaker 1: considered a full citizen and who had the right to vote. 53 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 1: There was also a basic understanding in English common law 54 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 1: that people born in the monarch's realm were subjects of 55 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 1: the monarch. Of course, the United States is a republic. 56 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 1: It is not supposed to have monarchs or subjects, but 57 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 1: the basic idea carried over that people born in the 58 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 1: United States were citizens of the republic. In terms of 59 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 1: legal theory, this is known as use solely or the 60 00:03:56,600 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 1: right of the soil. The idea that citizenship is from 61 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 1: a person's parents is common in other systems, and it 62 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 1: is known as eusanguinous or the right of blood. Over 63 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 1: the decades that followed, various laws and court decisions related 64 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:16,919 Speaker 1: to US citizenship in some way and to the idea 65 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:20,720 Speaker 1: of who could be a citizen. One was Dread Scott 66 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 1: versus Sandford, which was decided in eighteen fifty seven. We 67 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:27,120 Speaker 1: did a two part episode on this case that came 68 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:32,040 Speaker 1: out on July sixteenth and eighteenth of twenty eighteen, but briefly, 69 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 1: Dred Scott and his wife Harriet had been enslaved, and 70 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:39,039 Speaker 1: when their enslaver died, they were living in free territory. 71 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:42,600 Speaker 1: The Scots sued for their freedom on the grounds that 72 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:46,600 Speaker 1: since they were taken to free territory, they were free. 73 00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 1: The US Supreme Court did not answer the question of 74 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 1: whether that was the case. Instead, it said that the 75 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:58,480 Speaker 1: issue was outside its jurisdiction, writing quote, a free Negro 76 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:01,479 Speaker 1: of the African race, whose ancestors were brought to this 77 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:05,160 Speaker 1: country and sold as slaves, is not a citizen within 78 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 1: the meaning of the Constitution of the United States. That 79 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 1: meant that the Scots did not have the right to 80 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:16,280 Speaker 1: sue in federal court. A few years later, multiple states 81 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 1: seceded from the Union over the issue of slavery, and 82 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:23,120 Speaker 1: the United States Civil War began in eighteen sixty one. 83 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 1: After the war ended in eighteen sixty five, part of 84 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:31,839 Speaker 1: the US government's focus was reuniting and rebuilding the country 85 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:36,880 Speaker 1: that time known as reconstruction, which also involved trying to 86 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:41,600 Speaker 1: address the harms of centuries of slavery. The Thirteenth Amendment 87 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: to the Constitution, which abolished slavery and involuntary servitude except 88 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 1: in punishment for a crime, was ratified in December of 89 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:55,280 Speaker 1: eighteen sixty five. Early the following year, Congress passed the 90 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 1: Civil Rights Act of eighteen sixty six, or an Act 91 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 1: to protect all persons in the United States in their 92 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:08,040 Speaker 1: civil rights and furnish the means of their vindication. This said, 93 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 1: in part quote, all persons born in the United States 94 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 1: and not subject to any foreign power, excluding Indians, not taxed, 95 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:20,800 Speaker 1: are hereby declared to be citizens of the United States, 96 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 1: and such citizens of every race and color, without regard 97 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 1: to any previous condition of slavery or involuntary servitude, except 98 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 1: as punishment for crime, whereof the party shall have been 99 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:38,120 Speaker 1: duly convicted, shall have the same right in every state 100 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:41,840 Speaker 1: and territory in the United States to make an enforce 101 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:48,920 Speaker 1: contracts to sue be parties and give evidence to inherit, purchase, lease, sell, hold, 102 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:52,840 Speaker 1: and convey real and personal property, and to full an 103 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 1: equal benefit of all laws and proceedings for the security 104 00:06:56,160 --> 00:07:00,360 Speaker 1: of person and property as is enjoyed by white citizens, 105 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:04,320 Speaker 1: and shall be subject to like punishment, pains, and penalties, 106 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 1: and to none other any law, statute, ordinance, regulation, or 107 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:15,280 Speaker 1: custom to the contrary. Notwithstanding, President Andrew Johnson vetoed this 108 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 1: bill and Congress overrode that veto on April ninth, eighteen 109 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 1: sixty six. This was the first US law to define citizenship, 110 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 1: and it overturned dread Scott versus Sandford. But legislators understood 111 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:33,920 Speaker 1: that laws can be repealed, and if that happened with 112 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 1: this law, people would use the Supreme Court decision to 113 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 1: justify trying to bar people with African ancestry from citizenship. 114 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 1: Constitutional amendments are a lot harder to change than laws are. 115 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 1: They have to be passed by a two thirds majority 116 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 1: of Congress and then ratified by three fourths of the 117 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 1: states before they go into effect, and then they can 118 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 1: only be repealed if a new amendment goes through that 119 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 1: same process. So they were working on these constitutional amendments 120 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:07,440 Speaker 1: after the Civil War, very similar language was added to 121 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 1: the first section of the fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution, 122 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 1: quote all persons born or naturalized in the United States, 123 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:21,240 Speaker 1: and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the 124 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 1: United States and of the state wherein they resigned. Today, 125 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 1: that language is known as the Citizenship Clause. It explicitly 126 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:35,200 Speaker 1: repudiated the dread Scott decision and added a clear definition 127 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 1: of who was a US citizen to the Constitution people 128 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:45,040 Speaker 1: born in the United States or naturalized. There were, of course, 129 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 1: limited exceptions. It didn't spell out what was meant by 130 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 1: quote subject to the jurisdiction thereof, but this was generally 131 00:08:55,160 --> 00:09:01,720 Speaker 1: interpreted as referencing a few very specific groups. Diplomats from 132 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:06,079 Speaker 1: other countries were not under US jurisdiction. They were under 133 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 1: the jurisdiction of the country they were serving, so any 134 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:13,200 Speaker 1: children born to them in the United States were not 135 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:18,600 Speaker 1: US citizens. Also, if a foreign army were to invade 136 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:21,840 Speaker 1: the United States, or if foreign soldiers were in the 137 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 1: United States for some other reason, they also would not 138 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 1: be subject to US jurisdiction, so their children also would 139 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:34,840 Speaker 1: not be considered citizens. A third group not considered to 140 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:39,479 Speaker 1: be under US jurisdiction was Indigenous people, who were described 141 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:42,839 Speaker 1: as Indians not taxed in the Civil Rights Act of 142 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 1: eighteen sixty six and in other language in the Fourteenth Amendment, 143 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 1: And there is some critically important context here. The Fourteenth 144 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:54,200 Speaker 1: Amendment to the Constitution was passed by the Senate in 145 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:58,680 Speaker 1: eighteen sixty six and ratified two years later. This was 146 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 1: near the end of what some historians described as the 147 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 1: treaty making era of federal Indian policy. At a very 148 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:10,199 Speaker 1: basic level, a treaty is an agreement between two sovereign nations. 149 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 1: The treaties were talking about in this case were generally 150 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:16,839 Speaker 1: skewed in favor of the United States, and they were 151 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 1: connected to ongoing violence and genocide against indigenous people, but 152 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 1: they still rested on the idea that the United States 153 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 1: was one sovereign nation and the indigenous nation was another. 154 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:31,680 Speaker 1: So in the view of the authors of the Civil 155 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 1: Rights Act of eighteen sixty six and the Fourteenth Amendment, 156 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:39,840 Speaker 1: indigenous people were first and foremost under the jurisdiction of 157 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:44,320 Speaker 1: their own sovereign indigenous nation, not of the United States, 158 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:48,679 Speaker 1: even though the United States had created and imposed systems 159 00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 1: that kept those indigenous nations dependent on the United States 160 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 1: for their survival. Yeah, there's some really very memey and 161 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:03,440 Speaker 1: in mine beIN an overly reductive discourse going around the 162 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 1: internet and social media about this right now. It was 163 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 1: primarily about tribal sovereignty, even in a limited sense of 164 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:17,440 Speaker 1: tribal sovereignty that was actually existing when it was written. 165 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:21,480 Speaker 1: The Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution was deeply controversial, but 166 00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:25,080 Speaker 1: it's clear that the people who drafted it understood that 167 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:29,840 Speaker 1: it would grant citizenship to everyone born in the United 168 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 1: States without regard to race or color, with the exception 169 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 1: of the very specific groups we just mentioned. That is 170 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:39,880 Speaker 1: what they intended for it to do. Part of the 171 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:42,200 Speaker 1: whole point was that we were no longer going to 172 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 1: have classes of people who by their heredity were excluded 173 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:51,640 Speaker 1: from citizenship. This had been addressed during congressional debates over 174 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:54,320 Speaker 1: the Civil Rights Act of eighteen sixty six, which was 175 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:57,079 Speaker 1: the origin point for this language in the Fourteenth Amendment. 176 00:11:57,200 --> 00:11:59,440 Speaker 1: I am going to read some of this heads up. 177 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:03,280 Speaker 1: There's a term in here that is considered a slur today. 178 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:08,240 Speaker 1: So Edward Cowan of Pennsylvania asked, quote whether it will 179 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:11,880 Speaker 1: not have the effect of naturalizing the children of Chinese 180 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:16,679 Speaker 1: and Gypsies born in this country. Senator Lyman Trumbull of Illinois, 181 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:19,440 Speaker 1: who was chair of the committee that drafted the bill, 182 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:25,240 Speaker 1: answered quote, undoubtedly, before continuing quote, is not the child 183 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 1: born in this country of German parents a citizen? Cowen answered, quote, 184 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:34,360 Speaker 1: the children of German parents are citizens, but Germans are 185 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 1: not Chinese, and then Trumble answered this with quote, the 186 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 1: law makes no such distinction, and the child of an 187 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:44,960 Speaker 1: Asiatic is just as much a citizen as the child 188 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 1: of a European. When Senator Jacob Howard of Michigan introduced 189 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:53,080 Speaker 1: similar language as part of the fourteenth Amendment, he described 190 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:55,720 Speaker 1: it as declaratory of what he saw as the law 191 00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 1: of the land already. He described it as excluding quote 192 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 1: for mariners, aliens who belonged to the families of ambassadors 193 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:07,840 Speaker 1: or foreign ministers accredited to the government of the United States, 194 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 1: And after some additional discussion, language was adjusted so that 195 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 1: it would be clear that it also excluded indigenous people 196 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:18,960 Speaker 1: for the reasons that we already talked about. Then Cowan 197 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 1: brought up the same question he'd asked about the Civil 198 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 1: Rights Act of eighteen sixty six, talking about the subject 199 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 1: at length. This time, Cowen was answered by John Conness 200 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:32,840 Speaker 1: of California, which was the state in which most of 201 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 1: the Chinese immigrants to the United States were actually living. 202 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:41,240 Speaker 1: Connus said, quote, the proposition before us relates simply in 203 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:45,000 Speaker 1: that respect to the children begotten of Chinese parents in California, 204 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:48,680 Speaker 1: and it is proposed to declare that they shall be citizens. 205 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:52,720 Speaker 1: We have declared that by law. Now it is proposed 206 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:56,760 Speaker 1: to incorporate the same provision in the fundamental instrument of 207 00:13:56,800 --> 00:13:59,920 Speaker 1: the nation. I am in favor of doing so. I 208 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 1: voted for the proposition to declare that the children of 209 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 1: all parentage whatever, born in California should be regarded and 210 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 1: treated as citizens of the United States, entitled to equal 211 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 1: civil rights with other citizens of the United States. Connus 212 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:19,760 Speaker 1: also went on at length the transcripts of both of 213 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 1: these comments are very long, before saying, quote, we are 214 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 1: entirely ready to accept the provision proposed in this constitutional 215 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 1: amendment that the children born here of Mongolian parents shall 216 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 1: be declared by the Constitution of the United States to 217 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 1: be entitled to civil rights and to equal protection before 218 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:41,680 Speaker 1: the law with others. So, while it's clear that this 219 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:45,479 Speaker 1: language was intentionally drafted in a way that would include 220 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:49,840 Speaker 1: the children of Chinese immigrants as citizens. There were also 221 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:53,280 Speaker 1: plenty of people, including lawmakers, who did not want a 222 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 1: law or amendment that would do that. The Civil Rights 223 00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 1: Act of eighteen sixty six and the Fourteenth Amendment were 224 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 1: both passed and ratified over these objections. Under the Reconstruction 225 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:07,920 Speaker 1: Act of eighteen sixty seven, the states that had seceded 226 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 1: from the US were required to ratify the Fourteenth Amendment 227 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 1: in order to rejoin the Union, and some people argued 228 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:18,520 Speaker 1: that because of this, the Amendment itself was not valid, 229 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:21,800 Speaker 1: but again, that was not about the meaning of the 230 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:26,600 Speaker 1: citizenship clause. There were controversies around other provisions of the 231 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:29,560 Speaker 1: Fourteenth Amendment as well, but those are outside the scope 232 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:33,960 Speaker 1: of what we're talking about today. Almost immediately, people who 233 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:36,640 Speaker 1: did not want this to be in the Constitution started 234 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 1: trying to find a way to get a legal interpretation 235 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 1: of subject to the jurisdiction thereof, that would exclude specific 236 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 1: groups of people from the citizenship clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. Initially, 237 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 1: a big focus of that was the children of Chinese immigrants. 238 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 1: That led to the United States versus Wan kim ark 239 00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 1: and we will get into that after a sponsor break. 240 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 1: Wangham Arc was born in San Francisco, California, probably sometime 241 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:17,440 Speaker 1: between eighteen sixty nine and eighteen seventy three. Different documents 242 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:21,400 Speaker 1: give different years. His mother's name was Wee Lee and 243 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:25,680 Speaker 1: his father was Wangsi Ping. Wangsi Ping was a merchant 244 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 1: part of a firm called Quang Singing Company, and wankhim 245 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:32,360 Speaker 1: Ark was born in his parents' home above his father's 246 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 1: shop on Sacramento Street. It's not clear exactly when the 247 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 1: Wang family first arrived in the US, although one document 248 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 1: describes it as quote a long time prior to his birth. 249 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:48,760 Speaker 1: At the time, immigration between China and the United States 250 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:51,720 Speaker 1: would have been governed by treaty. If it was after 251 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 1: July twenty eighth, eighteen sixty eight, that would have been 252 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:58,680 Speaker 1: the one known in English as the Burlingame Treaty. Among 253 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 1: other things, this treaty removed restrictions on immigration to the 254 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:05,679 Speaker 1: US from China and specified that such immigration did not 255 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:10,720 Speaker 1: confer naturalization upon Chinese citizens in the US or vice versa. 256 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:15,879 Speaker 1: Chinese people in the United States had always faced racism 257 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:19,919 Speaker 1: and bigotry, and that escalated as more people came to 258 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:23,480 Speaker 1: the US from China. This was also tied to things 259 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:27,240 Speaker 1: like jobs and economic conditions. A lot of Chinese laborers 260 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:30,280 Speaker 1: had come to the US during the California gold Rush, 261 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:33,440 Speaker 1: and as long as the gold rush was booming, their 262 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:37,720 Speaker 1: labor was really welcomed by employers, even if they as 263 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 1: people were being shunned and disparaged. When the gold rush ended, though, 264 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:45,720 Speaker 1: they needed to find new work and were seen as 265 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:50,240 Speaker 1: taking jobs from white workers. The same cycle happened again 266 00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:54,680 Speaker 1: with the Transatlantic Railroad. Chinese workers were an enormous part 267 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:58,359 Speaker 1: of that effort, but then faced immense hostility after the 268 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 1: railroad was finished in eight ten teen sixty nine. Chinese 269 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 1: immigrants were also described as a quote unassimilable race, meaning 270 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:10,600 Speaker 1: that they were not willing or able to assimilate with 271 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:15,919 Speaker 1: white communities. Laws and unwritten rules forced Chinese immigrants to 272 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:19,920 Speaker 1: live in small, isolated enclaves, and then they faced judgment 273 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:23,920 Speaker 1: and bigotry for continuing to speak Chinese and observe Chinese 274 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 1: norms and social customs. There was also mob violence against 275 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:32,479 Speaker 1: these communities, including a massacre in Los Angeles in eighteen 276 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:35,920 Speaker 1: seventy one and a violent and deadly attack on San 277 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:41,479 Speaker 1: Francisco's Chinatown on July twenty fourth, eighteen seventy seven. We 278 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:44,960 Speaker 1: talk a lot more about that in the episode on 279 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:47,919 Speaker 1: Chai Chong Ping versus the United States, which we just 280 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 1: ran as a Saturday Classic. We don't know for sure 281 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:54,639 Speaker 1: why the Wongs decided to return to China, but it 282 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:58,960 Speaker 1: was after this eighteen seventy seven attack. Living in the 283 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:03,239 Speaker 1: United States also would have been incredibly isolating for Wee Lee. 284 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:07,520 Speaker 1: There were only about five thousand Chinese women in the 285 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:12,000 Speaker 1: entire country, and within the Chinese community, it wasn't considered 286 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:14,720 Speaker 1: appropriate for women of her station to be out in 287 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:19,440 Speaker 1: public amongst strangers. Wan Kimark was still a child when 288 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 1: his family left for China. A few years later, when 289 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:25,399 Speaker 1: he was in his teens, he returned to the United 290 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:28,159 Speaker 1: States with an uncle, and he started working as a 291 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:31,359 Speaker 1: dishwasher and a cook in mining camps in the Sierra 292 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 1: Nevada Mountains. In eighteen eighty nine, when he was about nineteen, 293 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:39,919 Speaker 1: he visited China again and he got married there. The 294 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:43,480 Speaker 1: Chinese community in the United States was, as the statistic 295 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 1: Tracy just mentioned makes clear, overwhelmingly male, and an anti missagination. 296 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:51,840 Speaker 1: Laws made it illegal for them to marry people of 297 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 1: other races. So if he wanted to get married and 298 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:57,760 Speaker 1: have children, his only real option was to do so 299 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:02,160 Speaker 1: in China. While his wife was pregnant with their first child, 300 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:05,200 Speaker 1: Wang returned to the United States, where he could make 301 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:09,680 Speaker 1: more money to support his family. Wang made another visit 302 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 1: to China in eighteen ninety four. He had prepared a 303 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 1: departure statement before leaving the United States, which read quote, 304 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:20,960 Speaker 1: whereas Wang kim Ark, whose photograph is here too attached, 305 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:24,439 Speaker 1: is about to depart for China, intending to return to 306 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 1: the United States, and is entitled to return there too. 307 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:33,400 Speaker 1: Now Therefore, for the better identification of the said wankim Ark, 308 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:37,560 Speaker 1: and in order to facilitate his landing upon his said return, 309 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 1: we the undersigned, do hereby certify that the said wankim 310 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 1: Ark is well known to us, that he was born 311 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:49,480 Speaker 1: in the city and County of San Francisco, State of California, 312 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:53,040 Speaker 1: that his father, Wang Si Ping, was a merchant and 313 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 1: a member of the firm of Quang Si in Company 314 00:20:56,960 --> 00:20:59,880 Speaker 1: number seven to fifty one Sacramento Street in the said 315 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:04,480 Speaker 1: city and County of San Francisco, State of California. This 316 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:09,159 Speaker 1: was signed by three white witnesses who also gave their addresses. 317 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:12,640 Speaker 1: It was notarized, and it was signed and stamped by 318 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 1: the inspector on Wang kaim Mark's departure, it was not 319 00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:21,199 Speaker 1: enough when Wang returned to the US in August of 320 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:25,199 Speaker 1: eighteen ninety five aboard the SS Coptic. John H. Wise, 321 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:30,119 Speaker 1: described as a quote zealous opponent of Chinese immigration, was 322 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:32,920 Speaker 1: the collector of customs for the Port of San Francisco, 323 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:37,160 Speaker 1: and Wise refused to let Wog into the country, claiming 324 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:40,919 Speaker 1: that he was not a citizen. Wong was detained aboard 325 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 1: the Coptic. By this point, the United States had banned 326 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:48,719 Speaker 1: immigration from China under the Chinese Exclusion Act of eighteen 327 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:52,880 Speaker 1: eighty two. In eighteen eighty eight, the Scott Act had 328 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:55,879 Speaker 1: also made it illegal for Chinese immigrants who left the 329 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:58,600 Speaker 1: United States to return. This again is stuff that we 330 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:02,119 Speaker 1: talked about in our most recent Saturday Classic. In eighteen 331 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:06,560 Speaker 1: ninety two, the Geary Act had also extended the Chinese 332 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:10,600 Speaker 1: Exclusion Act for another ten years, and it had specified 333 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:13,399 Speaker 1: that if a writ of habeas corpus was issued for 334 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:17,640 Speaker 1: a Chinese person who was denied entry into the United States, 335 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:22,240 Speaker 1: no bail would be allowed. For that person. The US 336 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:28,120 Speaker 1: Supreme Court had upheld this as constitutional the following year. Legally, 337 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 1: Chinese immigrants also could not be naturalized as citizens, so 338 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:37,680 Speaker 1: if Wang kim Ark had been an immigrant, wise would 339 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:40,720 Speaker 1: have been legally justified in keeping him out of the US. 340 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:47,879 Speaker 1: The Chinese Exclusion Act did contain exceptions for diplomats, travelers, merchants, teachers, 341 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:51,240 Speaker 1: and students, and since Wang was a cook, this didn't 342 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:55,080 Speaker 1: apply to him. But he wasn't an immigrant. He had 343 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:58,840 Speaker 1: been born in the United States, so under the citizenship 344 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:02,480 Speaker 1: clause of the fourteen the Amendment, he was a US citizen. 345 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:06,400 Speaker 1: Some of Wang's friends filed a writ of habeas corpus 346 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:09,560 Speaker 1: to try to get him released, and soon the Chinese 347 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:14,640 Speaker 1: Consolidated Benevolent Association, also called the Chinese Six Companies, stepped in. 348 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:18,720 Speaker 1: The Chinese Six Companies had started out as a charitable 349 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:22,240 Speaker 1: and mutual aid organization focused on the needs of Chinese 350 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 1: immigrants to the US. By this point, their work had 351 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:31,600 Speaker 1: expanded to include legal defense, including on immigration issues. They 352 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:35,480 Speaker 1: had attorney Thomas D. Rordon on retainer, and Ryordan started 353 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:40,119 Speaker 1: working with Wang's case. When the Coptic left Port, Wang 354 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:42,880 Speaker 1: was moved to another ship, the Gaelic, and then moved 355 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:47,560 Speaker 1: from the Gaelic to the pe King. Finally, on January third, 356 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 1: eighteen ninety six, after he had been forced to live 357 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:55,399 Speaker 1: aboard these ships for almost six months, Judge William Morrow 358 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:58,440 Speaker 1: ordered him released on two hundred and fifty dollars bond. 359 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 1: The United's States filed an appeal. And this wasn't just 360 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 1: about keeping Wang out of the country. Like we said earlier, 361 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:10,400 Speaker 1: there had always been people who objected to the Fourteenth 362 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:15,120 Speaker 1: Amendment citizenship clause. Officials like wise and the US Department 363 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:18,080 Speaker 1: of Justice were looking for a test case that could 364 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 1: go all the way to the Supreme Court, with the 365 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 1: hope that the courts would define the phrase subject to 366 00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 1: its jurisdiction as excluding the children of Chinese immigrants born 367 00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:34,200 Speaker 1: in the US. From the DOJ's perspective, Wan kim Ark 368 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 1: was the perfect test case for this for a number 369 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:40,960 Speaker 1: of reasons. He had been born in the United States 370 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:45,159 Speaker 1: to Chinese parents who had lawfully entered the country. Apart 371 00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:47,600 Speaker 1: from visits to China, he had been living in the 372 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:51,399 Speaker 1: United States, almost all of it in the same neighborhood 373 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 1: of San Francisco for many years. His wife and children 374 00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:58,440 Speaker 1: were living in China, so there would be no dramatic 375 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:01,840 Speaker 1: headlines about the federal government breaking up a family if 376 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:05,399 Speaker 1: he was deported, and also no family left in the 377 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:10,439 Speaker 1: United States without financial support. Wong had no criminal record, 378 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 1: and he paid taxes since he was working as a cook. 379 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:15,719 Speaker 1: They also didn't expect him to have a lot of 380 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:19,640 Speaker 1: money available to try to mount a legal defense. From 381 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:23,199 Speaker 1: the perspective of Wong and his supporters, the idea of 382 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:27,800 Speaker 1: winning a Supreme Court case probably seemed really doubtful. The 383 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:31,440 Speaker 1: Chinese Six companies had very skilled attorneys, and they had 384 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:34,480 Speaker 1: had some success with lower courts, but none of the 385 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:36,840 Speaker 1: cases that had gotten all the way to the Supreme 386 00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 1: Court had been found in their favor. The Supreme Court 387 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,240 Speaker 1: had also issued a decision on a group of cases 388 00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:46,760 Speaker 1: known as the slaughter House Cases in eighteen seventy three. 389 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:50,119 Speaker 1: That is a whole other topic, but part of the 390 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:54,720 Speaker 1: decision was that the thirteenth, fourteenth, and fifteenth Amendments had 391 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 1: been written in the context of free and formerly enslaved 392 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:02,720 Speaker 1: black people, and their protections did not necessarily apply to 393 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:06,200 Speaker 1: people of other races. We will look at the case 394 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:09,399 Speaker 1: as it went to the Supreme Court after a sponsor break. 395 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:22,800 Speaker 1: The US Supreme Court heard oral arguments in United States 396 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:26,720 Speaker 1: versus Wang kim Ark in early March of eighteen ninety seven. 397 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:32,399 Speaker 1: Wong's representatives argued that the Constitution was established on the 398 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:35,639 Speaker 1: principles of English common law that we mentioned earlier in 399 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:40,640 Speaker 1: the episode. They also argued that interpreting the fourteenth Amendment 400 00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:43,440 Speaker 1: in a way that meant Wong was not a citizen 401 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:47,120 Speaker 1: would also apply to a lot of other people who 402 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:50,400 Speaker 1: had been born in the United States, to immigrants from 403 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:54,280 Speaker 1: other countries, specifically a whole lot of other people who 404 00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:57,960 Speaker 1: were considered to be white. Thomas d Rierdon, who we 405 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,080 Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, spelled this out in an interview that he 406 00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 1: gave during all of this, saying, quote, think of all 407 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:06,320 Speaker 1: the people in this country who have been born of 408 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:10,600 Speaker 1: parents who owe allegiance to either Great Britain, Germany, Italy, 409 00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:14,679 Speaker 1: or some other European power. Are all these people to 410 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:18,679 Speaker 1: be declared not citizens? He said that there might be 411 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,879 Speaker 1: two hundred thousand people in that position, but he also 412 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:26,600 Speaker 1: called that a low estimate. The United States argument was 413 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:29,080 Speaker 1: that while Wong had been born in the US, he 414 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:32,560 Speaker 1: was quote by reason of his race, language, color, and 415 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 1: dress a Chinese person. They argued that under international law, 416 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:42,919 Speaker 1: children received the citizenship of their parents, not citizenship based 417 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:47,320 Speaker 1: on where they were born. That's the sanguinous idea that 418 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:51,720 Speaker 1: we mentioned earlier in the episode. The Supreme Court issued 419 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:55,520 Speaker 1: its decision more than a year later, on March twenty eighth, 420 00:27:55,600 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 1: eighteen ninety eight, the day after Inauguration Day. The Court 421 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:04,440 Speaker 1: ruled in favor of Long six to two. There were 422 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:09,280 Speaker 1: nine justices, but Justice Joseph McKenna didn't participate. He had 423 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:13,560 Speaker 1: replaced Justice Stephen Field, who had retired after the oral 424 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:18,040 Speaker 1: arguments but before the decision was issued. The majority opinion 425 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:22,359 Speaker 1: in this case includes pages and pages and pages of 426 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:27,080 Speaker 1: earlier decisions related in some way to citizenship, starting with 427 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:29,640 Speaker 1: people who had been born in the British colonies before 428 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:33,480 Speaker 1: the Revolutionary War and whether those people had been considered 429 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:38,000 Speaker 1: British subjects, which they had. There were also cases involving 430 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:41,480 Speaker 1: people born in England to foreign parents, with those children 431 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 1: also considered British subjects. Over and over again. These cases 432 00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:50,840 Speaker 1: involved scenarios in which children were considered citizens of the 433 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:55,320 Speaker 1: place they were born, regardless of their parents' citizenship. This 434 00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:59,240 Speaker 1: opinion even referenced the descent in dread Scott versus Sandford, 435 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,160 Speaker 1: which set in part quote the first section of the 436 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:06,240 Speaker 1: second Article of the Constitution uses the language a natural 437 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:11,040 Speaker 1: born citizen. It thus assumes that citizenship may be acquired 438 00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:15,600 Speaker 1: by birth. The opinion went on to say, quote, passing 439 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:20,360 Speaker 1: by questions once earnestly controverted, but finally put at rest 440 00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 1: by the fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution, it is beyond 441 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:28,200 Speaker 1: doubt that before the enactment of the Civil Rights Act 442 00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:32,480 Speaker 1: of eighteen sixty six or the adoption of the Constitutional Amendment, 443 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:36,920 Speaker 1: all white persons at least born within the sovereignty of 444 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:40,760 Speaker 1: the United States, whether children of citizens or foreigners, accepting 445 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:45,480 Speaker 1: only children of ambassadors or public ministers of a foreign government, 446 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:51,040 Speaker 1: were native born citizens of the United States. Later on, 447 00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:54,240 Speaker 1: the opinion said, quote as appears upon the face of 448 00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:57,000 Speaker 1: the Amendment, as well as from the history of the times, 449 00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:01,120 Speaker 1: this was not intended to impose any new restrictions upon 450 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 1: citizenship or to prevent any persons from becoming citizens by 451 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:08,720 Speaker 1: the fact of birth within the United States, who would 452 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:12,760 Speaker 1: thereby have become citizens according to the law existing before 453 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:17,360 Speaker 1: its adoption. It is declaratory in form and enabling and 454 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:21,800 Speaker 1: extending in effect. Its main purpose, doubtless was, as has 455 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:26,040 Speaker 1: been often recognized by this Court, to establish the citizenship 456 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:29,040 Speaker 1: of free negroes, which had been denied in the opinion 457 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:32,720 Speaker 1: delivered by Chief Justice Tainey in dread Scott versus Sandford, 458 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:35,640 Speaker 1: and to put it beyond doubt that all blacks, as 459 00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:39,280 Speaker 1: well as whites, born or naturalized within the jurisdiction of 460 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 1: the United States are citizens of the United States. From there, 461 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 1: it referenced the slaughter House cases as well as other 462 00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:51,640 Speaker 1: cases that had focused on the scope of the reconstruction amendments, 463 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:56,880 Speaker 1: before saying quote but the opening words, all persons born 464 00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:01,880 Speaker 1: are general, not to say universal, restricted only by place 465 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:05,800 Speaker 1: and jurisdiction, and not by color or race, as was 466 00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 1: clearly recognized in all the opinions delivered in the Slaughterhouse 467 00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:15,680 Speaker 1: cases above cited. This decision also reiterated the idea that 468 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:19,480 Speaker 1: at that time indigenous people were not considered to be 469 00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:23,400 Speaker 1: US citizens at birth. The Supreme Court had already heard 470 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:26,960 Speaker 1: and decided on a case related specifically to this, that 471 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:31,120 Speaker 1: was Elk versus Wilkins in eighteen eighty four. This case 472 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:34,000 Speaker 1: could also be a whole episode of its own, but Briefly, 473 00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:37,840 Speaker 1: John Elk was Winnebago and had been born on a reservation, 474 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:41,840 Speaker 1: but had later renounced his tribal citizenship and begun living 475 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:46,320 Speaker 1: in a non indigenous community. As summarized in the decision 476 00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:50,200 Speaker 1: of the United States versus Wonkim arc quote, it was 477 00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:52,800 Speaker 1: decided that an Indian born a member of one of 478 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 1: the Indian tribes within the United States which still existed 479 00:31:56,640 --> 00:32:00,200 Speaker 1: and was recognized as an Indian tribe by the United States, 480 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:05,000 Speaker 1: who had voluntarily separated himself from his tribe and taken 481 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:07,960 Speaker 1: up his residence among the white citizens of a state, 482 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:11,000 Speaker 1: but who did not appear to have been naturalized or 483 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:14,960 Speaker 1: text or in any way recognized or treated as a citizen, 484 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:18,720 Speaker 1: either by the United States or by the state, was 485 00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:22,600 Speaker 1: not a citizen of the United States as a person 486 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:25,520 Speaker 1: born in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction 487 00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:29,960 Speaker 1: thereof within the meaning of the clause in question. To 488 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:32,080 Speaker 1: be super clear, this was not saying he could not 489 00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:36,000 Speaker 1: become a citizen, just that he had not been one 490 00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:41,880 Speaker 1: of the United States from birth. The majority opinion ended quote. 491 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:46,240 Speaker 1: The evident intention and the necessary effect of the submission 492 00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:48,920 Speaker 1: of this case to the decision of the Court upon 493 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:52,880 Speaker 1: the facts agreed by the parties were to present for determination. 494 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:57,600 Speaker 1: These single questions stated at the beginning of this opinion, namely, 495 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:02,320 Speaker 1: whether a child born in the United States of parent 496 00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:05,240 Speaker 1: of Chinese descent, who at the time of his birth 497 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:08,000 Speaker 1: are subjects of the Emperor of China, but have a 498 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:11,840 Speaker 1: permanent domicile at residence in the United States and are 499 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:15,240 Speaker 1: there carrying on business and are not employed in any 500 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:20,000 Speaker 1: domestic or official capacity under the Emperor of China, becomes 501 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:22,560 Speaker 1: at the time of his birth a citizen of the 502 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:27,120 Speaker 1: United States. For the reasons above stated, this Court is 503 00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:30,120 Speaker 1: of the opinion that the question must be answered in 504 00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:35,360 Speaker 1: the affirmative. Chief Justice Melville Fuller and Justice John Marshall 505 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:39,520 Speaker 1: Harlan dissented. They argued that the amendment should not be 506 00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:43,480 Speaker 1: interpreted within a framework of English common law, but instead 507 00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:47,920 Speaker 1: should rest on international law, in which citizenship more commonly 508 00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:51,600 Speaker 1: came from a person's parents. They also argued that the 509 00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:55,720 Speaker 1: court's interpretation would mean that US citizen's children born while 510 00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:59,520 Speaker 1: their parents were abroad would be considered aliens in the US. 511 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:03,240 Speaker 1: They cited a small number of earlier cases in which 512 00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:07,680 Speaker 1: someone's citizenship had been decided based on who their parents were. 513 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:13,720 Speaker 1: The dissenting opinion also argued that the children of Chinese 514 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:19,120 Speaker 1: immigrants specifically, unlike the children of other immigrants, could not 515 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:24,280 Speaker 1: be considered to be completely under US jurisdiction. By treaty 516 00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:28,240 Speaker 1: and by law, Chinese immigrants living in the United States 517 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:33,319 Speaker 1: could not become US citizens. They were still Chinese citizens, 518 00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:38,400 Speaker 1: and in the dissenting justices' opinions, they were loyal to 519 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:41,719 Speaker 1: the emperor and their children would also be loyal to 520 00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:45,920 Speaker 1: the Emperor because in their religion quote filial piety is 521 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:49,920 Speaker 1: the first and greatest commandment. In spite of the language 522 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:53,839 Speaker 1: it contained, in practice, the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution 523 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:57,399 Speaker 1: did not mean that everyone in the US actually had 524 00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:01,040 Speaker 1: access to things like due process and equal protection under 525 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:05,120 Speaker 1: the laws. We have so many episodes about the ongoing 526 00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:09,719 Speaker 1: patterns of discrimination and racism that continued after it was ratified, 527 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:12,640 Speaker 1: And this court case did not mean that people like 528 00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:16,200 Speaker 1: Won kim Ark were suddenly regarded as US citizens on 529 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:19,600 Speaker 1: equal footing with white people born in the US. There 530 00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:22,880 Speaker 1: were still plenty of people who wanted an interpretation of 531 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:26,719 Speaker 1: the Fourteenth Amendment in which that phrase under the jurisdiction 532 00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:31,439 Speaker 1: thereof did not apply to Chinese people. There have been 533 00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:34,880 Speaker 1: ongoing efforts in the decades since, which are still going 534 00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:37,920 Speaker 1: on today to try to get a more narrow reading 535 00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:41,759 Speaker 1: of that jurisdiction language like right now. One of the 536 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:45,120 Speaker 1: arguments is that the court's opinion notes that Wong's parents 537 00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:49,800 Speaker 1: were lawful permanent residence with a domicile, so the children 538 00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:52,840 Speaker 1: of people who aren't permanent legal residents should not be 539 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:57,080 Speaker 1: considered citizens. A counter argument to that is, when the 540 00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:01,040 Speaker 1: fourteenth Amendment was drafted, there wasn't really a concept of 541 00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:04,319 Speaker 1: illegal immigration, but it did apply to the children of 542 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:08,279 Speaker 1: people who had entered the United States illegally, specifically the 543 00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:11,719 Speaker 1: children of people who had been illegally trafficked after the 544 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:15,400 Speaker 1: US banned the slave trade in eighteen oh eight. I 545 00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:18,560 Speaker 1: know that seems like a super problematic argument from the 546 00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:22,520 Speaker 1: modern perspective, but that was still how it worked. Those 547 00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:25,520 Speaker 1: were people who were considered to have entered the United 548 00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:30,320 Speaker 1: States illegally, their children were citizens, and Chinese immigrants and 549 00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:35,960 Speaker 1: their children were obviously still subjected to harassment, racism, and bigotry, 550 00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:39,799 Speaker 1: and this affected Wang Kim Mark and his family directly. 551 00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:44,440 Speaker 1: In nineteen oh one, Wang was arrested and nearly deported 552 00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:47,600 Speaker 1: from El Paso, Texas. While trying to cross back into 553 00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:52,120 Speaker 1: the United States from Mexico, he had to convince authorities 554 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:55,800 Speaker 1: that he was a citizen. Because Wang was a citizen 555 00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:59,920 Speaker 1: by law, his children born in China were also US citizens, 556 00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:03,839 Speaker 1: and ultimately three of his sons were able to enter 557 00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:07,759 Speaker 1: the United States, but each of them faced detainment and 558 00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:12,719 Speaker 1: interrogations while trying to do so. An immigration station was 559 00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:16,239 Speaker 1: built at Angel Island in nineteen ten, and that's where 560 00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:19,919 Speaker 1: people mostly from China and other parts of Asia, were 561 00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:23,960 Speaker 1: put through intense questioning that was designed to try to 562 00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:26,520 Speaker 1: keep them out of the United States. They also had 563 00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:30,720 Speaker 1: to go through humiliating physical exams. We talked more about 564 00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:35,280 Speaker 1: Angel Island and these interrogations in our episode on Tyrus Wong. 565 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:40,560 Speaker 1: One of wangkim Ark's sons, Wang Yuk Fun, was refused 566 00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:43,960 Speaker 1: entry into the United States and deported back to China 567 00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:48,520 Speaker 1: in nineteen eleven because investigators at Angel Island claimed his 568 00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:52,919 Speaker 1: answers had too many discrepancies from his fathers. Again, these 569 00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:57,719 Speaker 1: interrogations were made to be unpassable. Wang Yuk Su was 570 00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:01,439 Speaker 1: also denied entry into the United States in nineteen twenty four, 571 00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:05,600 Speaker 1: but was eventually allowed in after wangkim Ark testified on 572 00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:09,680 Speaker 1: his behalf. This is also connected to the paper suns 573 00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:12,200 Speaker 1: that we talked about in our episode on Tyris Wong, 574 00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:15,520 Speaker 1: people who claimed to be the children of US citizens 575 00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:18,160 Speaker 1: or born in the US, but were really born in 576 00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:22,680 Speaker 1: China to Chinese parents. Wang Yuk Siu had been presented 577 00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:26,880 Speaker 1: as wangkim Ark's citizen's son, but in nineteen sixty, as 578 00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:31,920 Speaker 1: part of the US Immigration and Naturalization Service's Chinese Confession program, 579 00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:36,880 Speaker 1: Wang Yuk Su admitted to being a paper son. Wangkim 580 00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:39,400 Speaker 1: Ark had died by this point. He had returned to 581 00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:43,160 Speaker 1: China in nineteen thirty one, saying he intended to return 582 00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:46,600 Speaker 1: to the US, but he didn't return, and we don't 583 00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:49,480 Speaker 1: really know what happened to him after this or his 584 00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:53,080 Speaker 1: thoughts about presenting Wang Yuk Su as his paper son. 585 00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:58,560 Speaker 1: The United States also continued to ban immigration from China 586 00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:01,799 Speaker 1: after this. In nineteen you know four, the Chinese Exclusion 587 00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:05,920 Speaker 1: Acts were renewed, and definitely they were not formally repealed 588 00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:10,200 Speaker 1: until December seventeenth, nineteen forty three, which is also when 589 00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:14,080 Speaker 1: it became legal for Chinese immigrants to be naturalized as 590 00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:19,760 Speaker 1: US citizens also because the citizenship status of Indigenous people 591 00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:23,440 Speaker 1: has come up several times in this episode. The Indian 592 00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:26,759 Speaker 1: Citizenship Act was signed into law in nineteen twenty four. 593 00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:30,319 Speaker 1: It read quote be it enacted by the Senate and 594 00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:33,440 Speaker 1: House of Representatives of the United States of America in 595 00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:37,680 Speaker 1: Congress assembled that all non citizen Indians born within the 596 00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:41,080 Speaker 1: territorial limits of the United States be and they are 597 00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:45,839 Speaker 1: hereby declared to be citizens of the United States, provided 598 00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:49,640 Speaker 1: that the granting of such citizenship shall not, in any manner, 599 00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:53,120 Speaker 1: impair or otherwise affect the right of any Indian to 600 00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:58,239 Speaker 1: tribal or other property. Indigenous people themselves had a range 601 00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:02,360 Speaker 1: of opinions on being granted US citizenship, including some tribes 602 00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:06,439 Speaker 1: that lobbied heavily against this law. Many of the white 603 00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:09,719 Speaker 1: people who advocated for it were motivated by the idea 604 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:12,279 Speaker 1: that it would help reduce corruption within the Bureau of 605 00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:16,040 Speaker 1: Indian Affairs, not by the well being or wishes of 606 00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:20,560 Speaker 1: the Indigenous people. It would apply to. The executive order 607 00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:22,920 Speaker 1: that we mentioned at the top of the show doesn't 608 00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:26,960 Speaker 1: mention the Indian Citizenship Act, or Elk versus Wilkins, or 609 00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:32,279 Speaker 1: the idea of birthright citizenship. For Indigenous people specifically, but 610 00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:36,120 Speaker 1: a Justice Department filing in response to a motion for 611 00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:41,240 Speaker 1: a restraining order against the executive order does. That filing 612 00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:45,759 Speaker 1: cites Elk versus Wilkins and United States versus Wankamark in 613 00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:50,080 Speaker 1: its arguments that the Fourteenth Amendment's citizenship clause applies only 614 00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:54,400 Speaker 1: to the children of US citizens and legal permanent residents 615 00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:57,520 Speaker 1: of the US. This has led to concerns that there 616 00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:02,000 Speaker 1: might be an attempt to end birthright citizenship for Indigenous people. 617 00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:07,280 Speaker 1: My basic understanding of this is that there is more 618 00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:12,360 Speaker 1: consensus at this point than a century ago that Indigenous 619 00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:15,560 Speaker 1: people would like to have US citizenship as well as 620 00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:21,759 Speaker 1: the citizenship of their indigenous nations. Again, it was impossible 621 00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:23,960 Speaker 1: to keep up with every aspect of what was happening 622 00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:27,080 Speaker 1: with this executive order while this episode was being researched 623 00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:31,040 Speaker 1: and recorded, but most legal and constitutional scholars that have 624 00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:34,880 Speaker 1: weighed in have said that an executive order cannot overrule 625 00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:38,839 Speaker 1: the Constitution. Instead, what is likely to happen is that 626 00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:42,400 Speaker 1: this executive order will lead to another test case that 627 00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:44,760 Speaker 1: will need to make its way to the Supreme Court, 628 00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:49,520 Speaker 1: as United States versus wan kim Ark, did I have 629 00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:53,799 Speaker 1: some very lighthearted is not the right word. It is 630 00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:57,560 Speaker 1: listener mail. That's not about anything of consequence. Really, it's 631 00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:00,719 Speaker 1: just for fun to close this sound yay. This is 632 00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:06,160 Speaker 1: from Randall. Randall wrote in after our recent Unearthed installments 633 00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:09,640 Speaker 1: where we talked about archaeologists leaving messages and bottles that 634 00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:14,520 Speaker 1: their archaeological sites for future archaeologists defined and Randall wrote Hill, 635 00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:17,759 Speaker 1: I was interested in the messages found in bottles. We 636 00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:22,080 Speaker 1: are restoring a seventeen eighty two house. Previous owners stripped 637 00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:25,080 Speaker 1: three rooms of their plaster and lath. We are putting 638 00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:28,360 Speaker 1: back the lath and replastering with lime plaster. Maybe a 639 00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:30,759 Speaker 1: substance you should look into, since it is a really 640 00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:35,319 Speaker 1: fascinating product. It cures by capturing carbon. We have seen 641 00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:39,320 Speaker 1: some articles of people finding shoes hidden in their old houses. 642 00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:42,800 Speaker 1: Apparently it was to ward off evil. Before I closed 643 00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:45,640 Speaker 1: the final wall, I stuck in a pair of my 644 00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:49,239 Speaker 1: old sneakers. They are size sixteen, double wide, so I 645 00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:51,680 Speaker 1: figured they will ward off a bunch of evil and 646 00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:56,280 Speaker 1: give future renovators something to talk about. I love your podcast, Randall. Randal, 647 00:42:56,400 --> 00:43:02,160 Speaker 1: I love this story. They're his. I'm just talking specifically 648 00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:04,960 Speaker 1: about North America, but other places too, Like there have 649 00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:08,320 Speaker 1: been traditions of putting all kinds of things in walls 650 00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:12,160 Speaker 1: and up chimneys as an idea of like warding off 651 00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:14,799 Speaker 1: evil and protecting the house and things like that. And 652 00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:20,480 Speaker 1: so I just love the idea of centuries from now 653 00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:25,080 Speaker 1: an archaeologist being like, is this a thing that people 654 00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:29,120 Speaker 1: were doing in the year in ten. There's a great 655 00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:32,799 Speaker 1: misinterpretation where they're like, this house must have been full 656 00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:35,800 Speaker 1: of evil spirits because they procured an extra large shoe. 657 00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:42,640 Speaker 1: I love that too. I'm a fan of putting surprises 658 00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:45,360 Speaker 1: in construction. Yeah, you have done it in our house 659 00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:49,240 Speaker 1: in several places. Yes. I just generally like the idea 660 00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:52,000 Speaker 1: of far in the future. If you know, if in 661 00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:58,479 Speaker 1: some way your home specifically, you know, at some time 662 00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:01,480 Speaker 1: far in the future than having been through a series 663 00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:04,759 Speaker 1: of additional owners, that your house as is becomes an 664 00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:09,920 Speaker 1: archaeological site and I think becomes like the focus of 665 00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:12,520 Speaker 1: archaeological study. Yeah, they're going to be like, there was 666 00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:15,000 Speaker 1: clearly some sort of religion around this figure, and we 667 00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:23,760 Speaker 1: don't understand it, but there's incredibly important anyway. Anyway, thanks 668 00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:26,600 Speaker 1: for giving us a moment to laugh. Randal If you 669 00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:28,640 Speaker 1: would like to send us a note about this or 670 00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:33,080 Speaker 1: any other podcast, we're at History Podcasts at iHeartRadio dot com. 671 00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:35,920 Speaker 1: If you have not subscribed to the show, you can 672 00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:39,240 Speaker 1: do that. We're on the iHeartRadio app and really wherever 673 00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:47,239 Speaker 1: else you like to get your podcasts. Stuff you missed 674 00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:50,399 Speaker 1: in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more 675 00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:54,800 Speaker 1: podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 676 00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:56,800 Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.