1 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:05,200 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the thing, 2 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:09,360 Speaker 1: My chance to talk with artists, policy makers, and performers, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:13,680 Speaker 1: to hear their stories. What inspired their creations, what decisions 4 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:19,120 Speaker 1: change their careers, what relationships influenced their work. I look 5 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:22,560 Speaker 1: at every movie as a letter to myself, telling me 6 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:24,720 Speaker 1: something that I need to know about how to live 7 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:27,480 Speaker 1: my life. And I'm I'm only on some level making 8 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 1: these movies to say, Judd, pay attention, Judd, live in 9 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:34,960 Speaker 1: the moment. She's actually my greatest, most clear scene critic, 10 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:37,360 Speaker 1: because she your most prevalent subject. If you painted her 11 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 1: more than any other person. Yes, I've painted her in 12 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:44,519 Speaker 1: in disguised ways, and I've painted her in you know 13 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:48,599 Speaker 1: ways where you can see it's her. Artists often use 14 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 1: their childhood and family life for inspiration. Today I talk 15 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 1: with a painter and a movie director. Both men have 16 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 1: drawn on their own families to create deeply personal art 17 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 1: in very different styles. Eric Fischel was described in the 18 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:08,200 Speaker 1: nineteen eighties as a painter of the suburbs, but not 19 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:12,119 Speaker 1: the suburbs you might imagine. In a woman possessed, an 20 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 1: unconscious female is sprawled out in a driveway surrounded by dogs. 21 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:21,200 Speaker 1: In Sleepwalker, a young man stands naked in a kittie pool, 22 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 1: his hands between his legs. There's a lot of nudity 23 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:31,560 Speaker 1: Inficial's work, and not a lot of smiles. Judd Apataw 24 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 1: is my first guest. His films include The forty year 25 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:39,240 Speaker 1: Old Virgin, Knocked Up and Funny People, which feature emotionally 26 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 1: immature men forced to grow up after confronting sex, responsibility, 27 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:51,520 Speaker 1: and death. Okay, what kill me? What nobody knows? We 28 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:53,960 Speaker 1: know each other. You're a stranger. You can get away 29 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 1: with this. I got a gun in the other room. 30 00:01:56,360 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 1: It's untraceable. I'll give you fifty thousand dollars. Don't make 31 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:07,280 Speaker 1: me suffer. Please kill me, Ira, I'm begging you. Can 32 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:08,760 Speaker 1: you know it's give me like a night to think 33 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 1: about it. Of all apataws movies, his most recent This 34 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 1: is forty, released in December two thousand twelve, maybe his 35 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 1: most personal. It stars his real wife, Leslie Man, and 36 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:23,640 Speaker 1: their own children, Maude and Iris, who play her kids 37 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 1: in the movie. Here, Apataw's comedic point of view collides 38 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:31,880 Speaker 1: with marriage, work, and family. It sounds horrible, but do 39 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 1: you ever wonder what it would be? Like if you 40 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:37,640 Speaker 1: your wife were separated by something bigger, will be death, 41 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 1: like her death. I have given it a fair amount 42 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 1: of thought, not any painful way, but just like a 43 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 1: gentle floating off. It's got to be peaceful. I mean, 44 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:47,920 Speaker 1: this is the mother of your children. And then the 45 00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 1: new wifes would be great. God, I can't wait to 46 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 1: meet my second wife. I hope she likes me better 47 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 1: than this one. Judd Apataw began studying the art of 48 00:02:56,440 --> 00:02:59,240 Speaker 1: making people laugh as a kid when he would rush 49 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:03,079 Speaker 1: home from school to watch TV, sometimes from three thirty 50 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:07,079 Speaker 1: until after midnight. On the weekend. He'd record Saturday Night 51 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 1: Live on audio tape and transcribe the show later to 52 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:13,640 Speaker 1: figure out what made it so funny. In high school, 53 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:16,840 Speaker 1: he had a radio show in which he interviewed comedians 54 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:19,440 Speaker 1: to learn as much as he could about their craft. 55 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:22,840 Speaker 1: I think talk about your type of comedy that you do. 56 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:28,239 Speaker 1: Comedians such as Gary Shandling, John Candy and Jerry Seinfeld. 57 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 1: Some people just tell the joke like an observation and 58 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 1: that's it. When you add a whole new dimension on it, Yeah, well, 59 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 1: it's one thing to see something, you know, and I 60 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 1: think the next step is to do something with it. Now, 61 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 1: in his mid forties, Apatow seems to have had his 62 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 1: hand in nearly every successful comedy of the last seven years. 63 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 1: He was a producer of Anchorman, super Bad, Bridesmaids, and 64 00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 1: is currently an executive producer of the hit HBO show Girls. 65 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 1: But John Apatow still craves reassurance. I need constant approval 66 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:08,480 Speaker 1: of my writing as I'm doing it, So I will 67 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 1: show people the first scene, the first ten pages people, anybody. 68 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:19,160 Speaker 1: I will show anybody. I literally will send it to friends. 69 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 1: You know. Jake Kazan, who directed and produced on Freaks 70 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:26,159 Speaker 1: and Geeks and Undeclared, is one of the first people 71 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 1: I show things too. But I'll show it to the 72 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:30,440 Speaker 1: studio because I don't like that moment when you have 73 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:32,839 Speaker 1: a finished script and you go, I wonder if they'll 74 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 1: like it. So if I send them thousands of pages 75 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 1: over the course of two years, they're so confused that 76 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 1: there's not a moment of truth, and to bury the 77 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:43,840 Speaker 1: exactly and when it when it really gets down to it. 78 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 1: Lena Dunham and I were working on Girls that was 79 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:50,039 Speaker 1: happening parallel to me making This is forty, so we 80 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 1: would literally spend two hours breaking girls stories and then 81 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:57,600 Speaker 1: two hours talked about this is forty and then near 82 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:00,839 Speaker 1: the end I'll get the courage up to send it 83 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 1: to like Eric Roth and James L. Brooks and Cameron. Yeah, 84 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:10,919 Speaker 1: he's probably the biggest influence. I think his whole approach 85 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 1: to stories is just imprinted in my mind from my 86 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 1: childhood watching Mary Tyler Moore and Taxi. That's how I 87 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:22,600 Speaker 1: feel like stories work. Normal people with everyday, normal problems, 88 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:24,680 Speaker 1: trying to get along, trying to make their jobs, in 89 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 1: their love and their life work. And his work always 90 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:32,360 Speaker 1: ends us some beautiful grace note which is always hopeful 91 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 1: yet realistic. And I remember them from when I was 92 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:38,320 Speaker 1: a kid. How you know? There was a Taxi episode 93 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 1: where Louis d Pamo was dating a blind woman and 94 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 1: he was so in love and then she was having 95 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:46,200 Speaker 1: an operation to get her sight back, and he thought 96 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:50,040 Speaker 1: she's gonna dump me, you can see, And then of 97 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 1: course she loves him and thinks he's beautiful, and as 98 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 1: he walks out of the room, he throws something in 99 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:58,360 Speaker 1: the garbage and he says, I guess I gotta get 100 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:02,920 Speaker 1: a real ring. And I love how he would pull 101 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:05,600 Speaker 1: that off, so he's very helpful. And in the middle 102 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:07,839 Speaker 1: of this is for you, I emailed James Brooks and 103 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 1: I said, remind me what the movie is about. Again. 104 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 1: I forgot, and he sent me a long email saying, 105 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:19,279 Speaker 1: this is what your movie is about. So you kind 106 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:21,039 Speaker 1: of I'll let you say this, but it sounds to 107 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:23,279 Speaker 1: me like you swim in kind of a pool or 108 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:26,040 Speaker 1: a stream with a lot of people who make films, 109 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:27,960 Speaker 1: and you're and you're open to their suggestions and you're 110 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:30,919 Speaker 1: open to their ideas. If you talk to a multitude 111 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:33,720 Speaker 1: of people for their ideas, which ones do you? I mean, 112 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 1: in the end, you decide. In the end, you choose. 113 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:38,799 Speaker 1: I've always had faith in my ability to make that call, 114 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:41,400 Speaker 1: so I don't mind a lot of feedback. It doesn't 115 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:44,599 Speaker 1: confuse me if everyone says something different. I mean, I 116 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:48,280 Speaker 1: come from television and rooms of people arguing about story, 117 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:51,280 Speaker 1: and my formative years were spent at the Larry Sanders Show, 118 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 1: where you were a great guest and I one of 119 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:56,719 Speaker 1: the great early moments in my career was I wrote 120 00:06:57,200 --> 00:06:59,560 Speaker 1: a bunch of those scenes and in the episode You're 121 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:01,360 Speaker 1: in and just saw it on TV the other day. 122 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:04,840 Speaker 1: I was home my favorite line, which was when Chandling 123 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 1: goes to the wings of the stage when I'm on 124 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:10,360 Speaker 1: the set and I'm not quoting it properly, but rip says, 125 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 1: what's the matter? He says, I can't help it. I 126 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:15,760 Speaker 1: keep seeing him having sex with my wife and he says, 127 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 1: and she's on top, and Rips says, the lazy bastards. 128 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:23,840 Speaker 1: That's that is. I wrote that joke. I know I 129 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:26,680 Speaker 1: wrote that joke because I was so proud of that joke. 130 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 1: And I remember when you came in to the first 131 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 1: day of shooting and to do the quick rehearsal, and 132 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 1: Gary was given you ship from the second you walk 133 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 1: in the doors, like Alex, you need a lozenge, you 134 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:41,560 Speaker 1: need a lozenge, and you said, all right, that's how 135 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 1: it's gonna be, Gary, That's how it's gonna be. And 136 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:47,160 Speaker 1: it's one of the great episodes. So so I think 137 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:49,760 Speaker 1: that was not your first job though. My first job 138 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 1: I used to write jokes for comedians. I wrote jokes 139 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:56,800 Speaker 1: for Rosanne's Nightclub act for one. Why did you did 140 00:07:56,800 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 1: you do stand up periodical? I did it for for 141 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 1: seven years. It's all I wanted to do. But I 142 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 1: very quickly realized I was better at creating sketches or 143 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 1: dramatic situations to get my point across, and as a 144 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 1: straight monologist, I wasn't interesting the way my roommate Adam 145 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 1: Sandler was or Jim Carrey. Just as a fan, I knew, oh, 146 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 1: I'm not these guys. You really felt that were oh yeah? 147 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 1: Because and then we were in l A. At the 148 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:25,560 Speaker 1: time I was in l A. I lived in North 149 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 1: Hollywood with Sandler and how it was under two years 150 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 1: and I mean it was the most fun time ever. 151 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 1: Every time we see each other were like that was 152 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 1: the best. You know. We were just so into doing 153 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:44,959 Speaker 1: stand up and back then Sandler wasn't famous, so he 154 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:49,959 Speaker 1: was really silly all the time and very obnoxious and 155 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:54,080 Speaker 1: trying to make strangers laugh. He really engaged the world 156 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:57,440 Speaker 1: for his own amusement, less to protect that he does now. Yeah. 157 00:08:57,480 --> 00:09:00,680 Speaker 1: He he just loved, you know, asking pulling people over 158 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 1: to ask for directions in the car and doing something 159 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:05,840 Speaker 1: crazy to them. I mean it sounds ridiculous, but he 160 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 1: was the guy that would fart in the elevator and go, Judd, 161 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:13,239 Speaker 1: come on, we're in an elevator. Uh. And that disappears 162 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:15,000 Speaker 1: when you get famous. So you brought up up there, 163 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 1: you know, well, but you brought this up and I'm 164 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:20,440 Speaker 1: I can't say I'm glad you did. But in your movie, 165 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 1: Paul Rudd is in bed with your wife. Yes, yes, 166 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:27,439 Speaker 1: he's in bed with his wife, and to torment her, 167 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 1: he just rips off a series of well placed like 168 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 1: he's turning over cards in a game. He's like, he 169 00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:35,959 Speaker 1: rips a couple of parts there. But you that's not 170 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:39,080 Speaker 1: how you live, right, Well, it's a that's a complicated scene. 171 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 1: And what's funny about that scene is, uh, they're having 172 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 1: a very serious conversation about their finances, which are not good, 173 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:50,080 Speaker 1: and they're watching security camera footage waiting trying to figure 174 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:52,319 Speaker 1: out who's stealing from them, and they see Megan Fox 175 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 1: fooling around with someone at work and then Leslie says, 176 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:58,360 Speaker 1: at least she's getting some. And his reaction, after a 177 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 1: few moments of feeling attacked is to just fart. It's 178 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 1: like a monkey. It's kind of like saying, you know, 179 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 1: screw you. And Rudd did it as an improv. It 180 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 1: wasn't in the script. Yeah, it wasn't in the script. 181 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 1: And Leslie knows, okay, if anything happens off page I 182 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:15,200 Speaker 1: need to go with it, and she's furious and you 183 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:18,239 Speaker 1: see it in her eyes and she's really genuinely disgusted, 184 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:20,560 Speaker 1: and you get kind of a real sense of what 185 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 1: marriage is like. That's how complex marriage is. Yeah, and 186 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 1: now the other question I have a propos of the 187 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 1: movie was so I'm thinking, Rudd, it's either the highest 188 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 1: honor or he's the goat because you're you know, you're 189 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:34,559 Speaker 1: lying in bed with your wife who has made a 190 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 1: lot of great films and funny films, and you say, uh, 191 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:40,640 Speaker 1: what's your nickname for your wife? Can I ask called 192 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:42,960 Speaker 1: les Is it les Leslie? Well, the funny thing is 193 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 1: I always call it Leslie And then she's like, Judd, 194 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:49,960 Speaker 1: my name's Leslie. It's not I literally say her name, 195 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:55,840 Speaker 1: it's Leslie. Leslie is when I'm in Cambridge now exactly. 196 00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 1: So you're there with her and you say to her, 197 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:00,240 Speaker 1: I'm just envisioning this scene where you look her and 198 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:04,600 Speaker 1: you say, baby, who's the guy that you like most 199 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:07,240 Speaker 1: want to have sex with? It was like, and just 200 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:08,960 Speaker 1: be honest with me. We've been together while we have 201 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:11,520 Speaker 1: two kids. You know, it's me. I'm making a film, 202 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:13,520 Speaker 1: and she says god, Paul Rudd, and I mean that 203 00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:16,320 Speaker 1: you crossed his name off the list. I know he's 204 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:18,719 Speaker 1: never doing my film. Or is it like you put 205 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:20,839 Speaker 1: him in or do you say to baby, who's the 206 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:23,240 Speaker 1: guy that you view as like a brother, Like if 207 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:25,720 Speaker 1: you had sex scenes with him, this wouldn't mean be 208 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 1: like like fooling around with your brother, Paul Rudd, that's 209 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:32,960 Speaker 1: where you go hire him. She's disgusted, uh, and and 210 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:36,439 Speaker 1: that makes it okay to watch them fool around. I 211 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: I'm always disgusted when she fools around with anyone. I 212 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:40,840 Speaker 1: remember when we shot the Cable Guy, she kissed Matthew 213 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:43,560 Speaker 1: Broderick and then when they parted, I saw it in 214 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:46,600 Speaker 1: the dailies there was like a spit string that connected 215 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:51,800 Speaker 1: them for like a foot. And and so yes, I'm 216 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 1: glad that unless they're lying about being disgusted by each other, 217 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:57,559 Speaker 1: because I may be the fool they are lyned. And 218 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:00,959 Speaker 1: that's terrible because I know because I've heard before, I've 219 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 1: had my ex wife has got you know, Russell Crowe 220 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 1: has got his tongue into her spinal for it, and 221 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 1: she's like, no, no, it's just nothing, it's nothing. Well, 222 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 1: the day I had a back surgery for a herniated 223 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:17,440 Speaker 1: disc back in the year two thousand. Leslie couldn't be 224 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:23,440 Speaker 1: there because Leslie, Sorry, Leslie, I couldn't be there because 225 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 1: she was. She was shooting a scene where she was 226 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:31,360 Speaker 1: making love with Jeff Goldbloom, and you just know he's 227 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:34,560 Speaker 1: all handsy in between takes the fly. You know he's 228 00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:37,200 Speaker 1: just for pushing buttons and a woman and you don't 229 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:40,320 Speaker 1: even know we're there exactly now. When you start a 230 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:43,280 Speaker 1: film like this, is there a fear when you begin? 231 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:45,080 Speaker 1: Do you think to yourself, Oh God, this is the 232 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 1: one on all the wheels are going to fall off? 233 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:51,199 Speaker 1: Like what's your disposition when you start shooting? You know, 234 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 1: I want to succeed because I just want to be 235 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:57,840 Speaker 1: allowed to continue making movies. I also have a rebellious streak, 236 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:00,240 Speaker 1: which is I do have some sense of what makes 237 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:04,120 Speaker 1: a very commercial movie, and I'm working partially against that. 238 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:07,240 Speaker 1: Like as the attention span of the audience gets shorter, 239 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:10,199 Speaker 1: I want to make longer movies to say there's something 240 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:13,800 Speaker 1: wrong with you that you can't sit for two film. 241 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:16,319 Speaker 1: I deliberately do it with all of them because I 242 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:18,640 Speaker 1: feel like, you know, this is the only time we're 243 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:20,840 Speaker 1: going to get with these people? Why do you need 244 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 1: to rush to get home? And I like movies like 245 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:26,280 Speaker 1: Jerry McGuire and in terms of endearment and movies that 246 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:28,560 Speaker 1: were over two hours, it takes an extra twenty minutes 247 00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:32,439 Speaker 1: to explore, you know, more dimensions of people. So and 248 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 1: said to me, you're basically saying these people are worth 249 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 1: your time. And sometimes I watched the movie because I 250 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 1: have to watch it hundreds of times, I think, wow, 251 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:41,960 Speaker 1: this is long. I'm really putting people through it. So 252 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:45,800 Speaker 1: on day one, I'm both trying to figure out, like 253 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:49,640 Speaker 1: marketing wise and concept wise, a way to make it 254 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:55,440 Speaker 1: sell while thinking I'm sneaking some John Cassavetti's Robert Altman 255 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:59,679 Speaker 1: aspect into a mainstream comedy. When when when you do 256 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:04,440 Speaker 1: a home like this as knocked Up begets this film? 257 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 1: Does this film just right away? Do you start thinking 258 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:10,439 Speaker 1: of other ideas whether you do them or not? Just absolutely? 259 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 1: I think that about most of the characters, I especially 260 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:16,439 Speaker 1: coming from TV. I love that there was Rhoda after 261 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 1: Mary Tyler Moore or Fraser after Cheers. So anytime a 262 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 1: character works, I could watch it, you know, I could 263 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 1: watch uh, either of the leads of super Bad go 264 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:29,680 Speaker 1: off on their own, Michael Sarah's character or Jonah Hills 265 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:33,120 Speaker 1: or the cops. Once it exists, I'm kind of more 266 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:36,800 Speaker 1: depressed that we're not doing more stories. And that's just 267 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:38,800 Speaker 1: my whole thing. I don't like to let go. So 268 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:40,920 Speaker 1: if someone said they're gonna make a movie about what 269 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:43,920 Speaker 1: happened to Albert Brooks's character from Broadcast News, I'd be 270 00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 1: the happiest man in the world. Had you known Brooks, 271 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 1: had you been acquainted with him and had worked with 272 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 1: him before, and you did this movie with him. I 273 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 1: met him in the early nineties when I was working 274 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 1: at the Lark Sanders Show. I had dinner with him 275 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:00,160 Speaker 1: a couple of times with Gary, and I was and 276 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 1: awe to be around him because his Saturday night live 277 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:06,840 Speaker 1: movies were really big influence on everything we did at 278 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 1: the Ben Steelers Show. And obviously, you know, defending your 279 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 1: life in modern romance and real life, you know, was yeah, 280 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:19,560 Speaker 1: it's the template for a certain type of you. And 281 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 1: in the same sentence again, I was so excited to 282 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 1: meet Albert that afterwards I went home and I wrote 283 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:28,120 Speaker 1: down every joke he said at dinner, like I still 284 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 1: have like the journal entry where he's making jokes about 285 00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:34,560 Speaker 1: the Menendez case. You don't kill your parents and buy 286 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 1: a Rolex. You don't do that. So I wrote the 287 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:40,760 Speaker 1: part just for him, hoping it could be good enough. 288 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:43,240 Speaker 1: I never want to ask anyone that I look up 289 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:45,360 Speaker 1: to to be in my movie if I don't think 290 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:47,320 Speaker 1: it could be as good as their movies. You know, 291 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:50,320 Speaker 1: I don't want to be their crappy movie. Now when 292 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 1: with Brooks, when you work with people like that who 293 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 1: are veteran, if you will are very experienced and have 294 00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 1: a bead tremendous success, what's that experience like for you? 295 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:02,880 Speaker 1: Was a director? Meaning? Do you do they come in 296 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 1: and they just start riffing and and are they rewriting 297 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 1: and improvising and you just let it go? Or do 298 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:10,080 Speaker 1: you sit there and you do find a way, a 299 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 1: politic way to sit in My brother, to confine ourselves 300 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 1: to this what's on the page, not specifically with him, 301 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:16,800 Speaker 1: but with any of them that come in, Well, I 302 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 1: precious arre you about what you've written. Well, I'm never 303 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 1: precious about anything other than my intention. So with Albert, 304 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 1: obviously I'm terrified because I'm working with someone who's clearly 305 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 1: more talented than me. So I'm trying to figure out 306 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 1: how to manage my idea for the story and tap 307 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 1: him for everything that he's worth. So I want him 308 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 1: writing and thinking and pitching me. I mean, I spent 309 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 1: a year in a room trying to think of an 310 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 1: original character that he hadn't done before but that would 311 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 1: still use, you know, his great comic sensibilities. And then 312 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 1: I brought him into a rehearsal and we did the 313 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 1: scene as written, We did ideas that I had, and 314 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 1: then I just let him play and improvise and pitch 315 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 1: me things. And obviously, at the end of the day, 316 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 1: if you were to like write down which are those 317 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:03,840 Speaker 1: lines are Albert's, you know, it becomes the majority, which 318 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 1: is the intention to give him a space where he's 319 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:10,879 Speaker 1: comfortable enough to email me at night a better line 320 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:12,879 Speaker 1: which you would do with the die. Before any scene, 321 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:15,720 Speaker 1: I get a little email from Albert what if he said, 322 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:21,720 Speaker 1: did it? And it's always better than my joke in 323 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 1: a minute, more from Jed Apatow, who's always thinking ahead. 324 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:28,399 Speaker 1: I have these like age issues. So I my friends 325 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:31,680 Speaker 1: are all forty five fifty, Okay, what is the movie 326 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:34,399 Speaker 1: we would make in our fifties and I'll five years ahead, 327 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:39,960 Speaker 1: begin to start flushing, start planning. I'm an like Baldwin. 328 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 1: And here's the thing. Take a listen to our archive 329 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:48,920 Speaker 1: more unexpected conversations with artists, policymakers, and producers like Saturday 330 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:54,000 Speaker 1: Night Lives Lord Michael's. Producing for me, anyway is like 331 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 1: an invisible art. If you're any good at it, you 332 00:17:56,960 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 1: leave no fingerprints and you own way you prove your 333 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:03,840 Speaker 1: worth is you leave a body of work and people go, oh, 334 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:08,199 Speaker 1: that accident happened there again, Oh I see. So you know, 335 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:11,040 Speaker 1: you try and get the best out of people. If 336 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:14,119 Speaker 1: you look around the room and you're the smartest person 337 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:17,480 Speaker 1: in the room, then you're in the wrong room. Here 338 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:20,960 Speaker 1: more from Michael's and those he discovered like Chris rock Aways. 339 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 1: I haven't been having a poor day since I met 340 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 1: Laura Michaels and I've never been broke. And here's the thing, 341 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:43,560 Speaker 1: Dot Org. This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to 342 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 1: here's the thing. When my guest Judd Apatow directed The 343 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:50,520 Speaker 1: forty year Old Virgin, he collaborated with an actor who 344 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 1: dances on the fault line between insecure, juvenile and unapologetic adult. 345 00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:59,159 Speaker 1: He was the perfect muse for Apatow's film about a 346 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 1: middle aged man quest to finally have sex. I want 347 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 1: to go out with you, guys, Okay, I don't need 348 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 1: your help. Okay, fine, you don't have to go out 349 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:08,159 Speaker 1: with us if you don't want. You know what, I 350 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:12,120 Speaker 1: respect women. I love women. I respect them so much 351 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:16,400 Speaker 1: that I completely stay away from Okay. I was producing 352 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:20,240 Speaker 1: on Anchorman, and I hadn't directed a film before, but 353 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 1: I knew that Steve Carrell was one of the funniest 354 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:25,520 Speaker 1: people I've ever seen. He was crushing so hard every 355 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:28,240 Speaker 1: day on the set that all the actors were baffled 356 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:31,120 Speaker 1: and how how funny he was. And he wasn't someone 357 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 1: that was in line to be the lead of a movie. 358 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 1: He was just one of the great, hilarious supporting actor people. 359 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:42,679 Speaker 1: And I always like, I like those guys to be 360 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:45,480 Speaker 1: the lead. I always want, you know, I want to 361 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:49,520 Speaker 1: see yeah, yeah, Well beyond that, I want to see 362 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:51,480 Speaker 1: George Went. I want to I want to I like 363 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:54,080 Speaker 1: seeing I like because that's who I feel like. I 364 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:56,280 Speaker 1: feel like the side guy, and I always want to 365 00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 1: follow them home. And so I said to Steve, do 366 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:01,160 Speaker 1: you have any ideas for mo vies, because you definitely 367 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 1: could carry a movie. And he said, there was a 368 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 1: sketch at Second City we did once that we never 369 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:12,000 Speaker 1: quite finished, which was about a poker game where they're 370 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 1: all telling sex stories and it's clear that one guy 371 00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:17,440 Speaker 1: has never had sex, and everything he says, it makes 372 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 1: no sense. And he's saying, yeah, you know, like when 373 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:22,760 Speaker 1: it's such a girl's breast, it feels like a bag 374 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:25,400 Speaker 1: of sand and you go down your pants and there's 375 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:29,720 Speaker 1: all that baby powder, and and he said, so, you know, 376 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:32,920 Speaker 1: I'd love to play a forty year old virgin. And 377 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 1: just because I'm such a nerd and so insecure and 378 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:40,720 Speaker 1: ashamed of everything in life, I just immediately understood what 379 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:43,200 Speaker 1: he meant and that you could do something very sweet 380 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 1: and and riotously funny. So we wrote it together. Now now, 381 00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:51,040 Speaker 1: so when you direct the film, how is the technical 382 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:54,840 Speaker 1: challenge for you? Or how is the technical aspects of 383 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:57,680 Speaker 1: it for you? Grown? Because it is filmmaking, and are 384 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:00,439 Speaker 1: you I like, do Mr and Mrs apple House sit 385 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:03,639 Speaker 1: in the screening room at nine and watch Citizen Kane 386 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:06,240 Speaker 1: and look at that there is a man. Look at 387 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:09,200 Speaker 1: the rack focus? You know, do do you watch scenes 388 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:10,960 Speaker 1: from films and say, that's what I want. There, It 389 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:15,160 Speaker 1: is right there, Leslie. That's not me at all, because 390 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:16,800 Speaker 1: I came from being a stand up comedian. It was 391 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:20,240 Speaker 1: all dialogue, it wasn't visuals, so I never tuned into that, 392 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:23,119 Speaker 1: and I have no brain for the technology, so I 393 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:26,520 Speaker 1: can't remember the lenses and what they do even now, 394 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:29,679 Speaker 1: Like what do you do? I hire people who are 395 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:32,520 Speaker 1: really good, like surrender all that to other people. Well, 396 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:35,400 Speaker 1: it's not a total surrender, because I will show them 397 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 1: what I like. You know. I always I'm trying to 398 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 1: model my work after movies like the last detail of 399 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:44,600 Speaker 1: the how Ashby movie or Coming Home. I like movies 400 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:48,080 Speaker 1: that feel almost like a documentary. I want you to 401 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:49,879 Speaker 1: forget I exist, and I'm trying to make it as 402 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:52,640 Speaker 1: voyeuristic as I can make it. In some ways, it's 403 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:56,159 Speaker 1: like Larry Sanders. I like that look for comedy. For 404 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:59,119 Speaker 1: what I do. Your kids are in your movie? You 405 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:01,600 Speaker 1: put your own chill room in the movie? True, and 406 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:03,400 Speaker 1: what effect does that happen to? Like do your kids 407 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 1: now do they close their bedroom board? And they don't? 408 00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:08,640 Speaker 1: They like, don't come in here without a script. We'll 409 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:11,119 Speaker 1: talk to me there is a little of Daddy. Why 410 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:14,480 Speaker 1: wouldn't you let me work for anybody else? And because 411 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:16,600 Speaker 1: I didn't put them in the movie to start a career. 412 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:19,159 Speaker 1: I just wanted this idea to work, and I wanted 413 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 1: to capture a real family and have people on screen 414 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 1: that look like they love each other. Do they want 415 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 1: to make movies? Well, I was my ten year old. 416 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:29,600 Speaker 1: She literally will say I don't want to be an actress, 417 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:32,680 Speaker 1: so she's kind of cool. I think she probably wants 418 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:34,879 Speaker 1: to write. And then Maud is doing a lot of things. 419 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 1: She's uh. She interviewed one direction for teen Vogue, and 420 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:41,520 Speaker 1: her acting is so good here that I am concerned 421 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:43,960 Speaker 1: that we'll get, you know, the call out of the 422 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 1: Blue from James Cameron to ask her to ride a 423 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:49,240 Speaker 1: magical dragon for seven months, and then I have to 424 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:51,840 Speaker 1: say Mud, no, you actually yeah, you have to you 425 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:53,720 Speaker 1: have to finish school, and then she'll hate me for 426 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:55,879 Speaker 1: the rest of her life. I could have been at 427 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:59,000 Speaker 1: Avatar too, and you ruin it in said you want me, 428 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 1: you want me to wait until I'm in This is fifty, 429 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:05,480 Speaker 1: so it's a it's a miscalculation based on my own 430 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:09,560 Speaker 1: greediness to capture how great they are from my movie 431 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:13,320 Speaker 1: with no you know, forethought of how it will affect 432 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:16,040 Speaker 1: their lives. But they did really enjoy making the movie, 433 00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:19,479 Speaker 1: and they fought so much in the movie and in 434 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:21,879 Speaker 1: life that since the movie they've gotten along great Like 435 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:24,439 Speaker 1: It's almost like by playing out the drama of the 436 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:29,359 Speaker 1: ridiculousness of their sibling rivalry screen, they had to think 437 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:31,240 Speaker 1: through like why are we fighting? What is it about? 438 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:34,560 Speaker 1: And on some unconscious level they've gone easier on each 439 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:37,480 Speaker 1: other since we shot. It's so funny because that's the 440 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:40,920 Speaker 1: old actors tenant that gets passed onto you that every 441 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:45,359 Speaker 1: role you play, perhaps embedded in that role is an 442 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:47,680 Speaker 1: opportunity for you to say goodbye to some party or 443 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,119 Speaker 1: sol if you don't like I think that's true. I 444 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:52,720 Speaker 1: I look at every movie as a letter to myself 445 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:55,919 Speaker 1: telling me something that I need to know about how 446 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:58,400 Speaker 1: to live my life. That I'm I'm only on some 447 00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:01,440 Speaker 1: level making these movies to say, Judd, pay attention, Judd, 448 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:03,600 Speaker 1: live in the moment, because I am, you know, a 449 00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:08,159 Speaker 1: detached writer who who needs to be brought into the moment. 450 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:11,040 Speaker 1: And a lot the movie when it was finally done, 451 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:14,080 Speaker 1: what was her comment to you, uh in the beginning, 452 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 1: she worried if it didn't end happy enough, and now 453 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:21,520 Speaker 1: she she really loves it. And I kind of like 454 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:24,119 Speaker 1: that it has that question mark at the end, which is, 455 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 1: you know, it's hard work. It's gonna be hard work, 456 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:28,040 Speaker 1: but they love each other and it's definitely worth it. 457 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:32,720 Speaker 1: I think that sometimes she, you know, worries that it 458 00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:36,359 Speaker 1: could go slightly darker by like four percent than it 459 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:40,800 Speaker 1: needs to, where I like that question mark of you know, 460 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:43,520 Speaker 1: we're all struggling, but it's okay, that's what life is. 461 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:46,639 Speaker 1: And still people say I'm resolving it too much, so 462 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:48,600 Speaker 1: you can never walk that line. Some people want it 463 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:51,159 Speaker 1: so dark and some people are so pissed. It's not 464 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:53,840 Speaker 1: all jokes, so you know, I'm always in the middle. 465 00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:01,200 Speaker 1: Writer director Judd Apatow says he's still wonders what's left 466 00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:04,960 Speaker 1: to say. Don't worry, Judd, Turning fifty will give you 467 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 1: more than enough material for a sequel. My next guest 468 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:13,320 Speaker 1: is an artist who, like Apataw, explores some of the 469 00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:15,840 Speaker 1: more peculiar sides of what it means to be human. 470 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:19,280 Speaker 1: But unlike Apataw, his work isn't meant to make you laugh. 471 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:26,840 Speaker 1: Eric Fishel is known for powerful and provocative paintings, most 472 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:30,720 Speaker 1: notably Bad Boy. In it, a naked woman lies on 473 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:33,400 Speaker 1: a bed, a young boy is standing in front of her, 474 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 1: his hands behind his back, and he seems to have 475 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:40,960 Speaker 1: taken something from her purse. Official grew up in the 476 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:44,480 Speaker 1: privileged country club culture of North Shore of Long Island, 477 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:48,399 Speaker 1: but his mother suffered from depression and alcoholism and committed 478 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:52,120 Speaker 1: suicide when Fisher was twenty two. After decades of living 479 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:55,040 Speaker 1: in New York City, he and his wife, painter April Gornick, 480 00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:58,960 Speaker 1: now live full time on eastern Long Island. In his 481 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:03,360 Speaker 1: recent autobiography, Bad Boy, My Life On and Off the Canvas, 482 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:07,320 Speaker 1: Official covers his youth the art world, his own struggles 483 00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:10,600 Speaker 1: with depression and substance abuse, and his thoughts about the 484 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:14,239 Speaker 1: creative process. He was in the first undergraduate class at 485 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 1: cal Arts, a place that was known for experimentation in 486 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:22,960 Speaker 1: all forms, orgies, drugs, but most importantly conceptual art. It 487 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:26,320 Speaker 1: would be some time before official, skill, talent, and voice 488 00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:30,479 Speaker 1: found a home in realism. I started out being trained 489 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 1: as an abstract painter. You know, if you you were 490 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:36,480 Speaker 1: going to be a painter, you should be an abstract painter. 491 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 1: So I tried. What it turned out was that every 492 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:43,520 Speaker 1: abstract painting I made felt like it was absolutely the 493 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:46,959 Speaker 1: last painting I could make. Then at some point I 494 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 1: started to work with figures and with narrative and language 495 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:55,679 Speaker 1: and stuff like that, and it flowed. That's when I 496 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 1: realized I was now doing the work that I was 497 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:01,199 Speaker 1: supposed to do, that that I was built for. And 498 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 1: then it was a matter of getting better at it 499 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:07,720 Speaker 1: and you know, perfecting it, honing it, etcetera. Was the 500 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:10,919 Speaker 1: river I thought of you doing something else creatively. Music 501 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:13,879 Speaker 1: was out of the question because I haven't toned deaf years, 502 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:16,920 Speaker 1: so and then no way I could do that. I 503 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:23,280 Speaker 1: was in a a play in eighth grade in which 504 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:27,960 Speaker 1: it was called It's Cold and Them Lar Hills, and 505 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:33,600 Speaker 1: I played this hillbilly named Zeke, who didn't speak through 506 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:36,760 Speaker 1: the entire play, but was on stage the entire time 507 00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:39,840 Speaker 1: until the very end, when I had this like big 508 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 1: speech where I proclaimed my love for this person who 509 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:47,080 Speaker 1: didn't know I was even present the girl, and I 510 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:50,040 Speaker 1: get the girl, But it was like spending a lot 511 00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 1: of time kind of being present and absent at the 512 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:58,240 Speaker 1: same time. Was actually a profound experience for me. But 513 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:01,040 Speaker 1: it it didn't lead to me wanting to do with 514 00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:05,840 Speaker 1: the next play or to do that. And I've actually 515 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:08,880 Speaker 1: become much more of a public person over the years, 516 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:13,320 Speaker 1: and it was a lot easier for me to in 517 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 1: private have my thoughts and feelings and and you know, 518 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:23,240 Speaker 1: sort of express them before anyone ever saw them. And 519 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:26,800 Speaker 1: so I could actually control the form of expression before 520 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:35,000 Speaker 1: it entered the world. Yes, exactly. But my sensibility is 521 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:39,680 Speaker 1: very much I think, consistent with you know, an an 522 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:46,320 Speaker 1: actor's sensibility and a director's sensibility, and in that sense of, 523 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:52,000 Speaker 1: you know, understanding what a dramatic moment actually is, where 524 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:57,560 Speaker 1: where meaning is present. My work is based on or 525 00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:01,680 Speaker 1: that as a source material photographs. I did a project 526 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 1: once where actually used actors. I was given a house, 527 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:10,720 Speaker 1: Miss Vandorot house and craigfelt Germany to uh do some 528 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:15,360 Speaker 1: kind of interaction with the house. I never worked with 529 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:19,560 Speaker 1: actors before, and so I went to friends who were 530 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:24,880 Speaker 1: in the business, you know, writers, playwright, screenwriters, whatever, directors 531 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:27,720 Speaker 1: to give me some ideas that like, how do you 532 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:30,960 Speaker 1: talk to an actor, what gets them going, etcetera. Because 533 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:35,040 Speaker 1: I had no clue. The simplest advice came back from 534 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:39,280 Speaker 1: Mike Nichols, who said, I'll give them problems. They love problems, 535 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:43,080 Speaker 1: and I said, what the hell is a problem? They said, no, 536 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:46,160 Speaker 1: you know she wants to borrow five hundred bucks from him, 537 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:48,880 Speaker 1: but you won't tell him. Why why just give him that, 538 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 1: You'll see right. I was like, okay, I would give 539 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:57,400 Speaker 1: him a problem, and I was surprised at how fast 540 00:29:57,520 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 1: I could tell that the problem I gave him wasn't 541 00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:03,680 Speaker 1: an good. They couldn't get animated, and they were just 542 00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:06,719 Speaker 1: like it wasn't achieving the desire to felt they were. 543 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:09,080 Speaker 1: They were just dead. It was like nothing. Their body 544 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:12,080 Speaker 1: couldn't even move hardly. And at the same time, when 545 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:14,720 Speaker 1: I gave him something, they could really bite their teeth into. 546 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:18,000 Speaker 1: For example, I did sleep with you, but you have 547 00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:23,000 Speaker 1: to break up with their boyfriend. The thing is the 548 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:28,800 Speaker 1: female actress had like zero interest in him, but she 549 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:30,680 Speaker 1: was very professional, and so we're going to do the 550 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:34,280 Speaker 1: bedroom stuff and I set up some stuff in there 551 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:37,760 Speaker 1: and it really wasn't working. It was saying, you know, 552 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:43,080 Speaker 1: there was something. They were dressed in evening clothes. It 553 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:46,360 Speaker 1: was late to come home. You know, he's drunk. She's 554 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:50,120 Speaker 1: hoping that you know, they could have some sex. Maybe 555 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 1: he's you know what, it can't kind of get it together. 556 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:58,520 Speaker 1: It was lame. So he gets up and he goes 557 00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:00,680 Speaker 1: off to the bathroom or something like that. And so 558 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:05,040 Speaker 1: I say to her, look, take off your clothes, get 559 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:08,800 Speaker 1: in the bed. You're a wild animal. Whatever you do, 560 00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:11,240 Speaker 1: don't let him in the bed. Now, this bed that 561 00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:15,080 Speaker 1: I had chosen was like a modernist bed that had 562 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:18,680 Speaker 1: this igloe of a mosquito netting over it, so it 563 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:21,280 Speaker 1: made like a cocoon or something like that. At tent. 564 00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 1: All of a sudden, she like curls up into this 565 00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:28,320 Speaker 1: incredible kind of creature and then like pushes herself against 566 00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:31,080 Speaker 1: the end of the wall and and and it's like 567 00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:35,760 Speaker 1: just sitting there waiting, right, and he comes back into 568 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:37,480 Speaker 1: the room, and now he sees her in the bed. 569 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:40,480 Speaker 1: She's naked. It's like, oh, we're getting some how, We're 570 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:46,680 Speaker 1: getting somewhere, right. He takes his bathrobe off and walks 571 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:49,440 Speaker 1: over to the netting. He starts to lift it up, 572 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:54,000 Speaker 1: and she comes flying across the bed one leap and 573 00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:58,160 Speaker 1: smashes him in the face. Right, And he's like whoa. 574 00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 1: And then you got a whoa. This could be fun 575 00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:06,200 Speaker 1: and you've got good images. I got great images also 576 00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:09,280 Speaker 1: that Yeah, yeah, they did a whole dance around getting 577 00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:11,240 Speaker 1: in and out of the bed, and when he finally 578 00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:14,240 Speaker 1: got in, she slipped out, and you know it reverse 579 00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:18,720 Speaker 1: the roles and stuff, and that was that. But do 580 00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:22,040 Speaker 1: you find that this carries through insofar as you know 581 00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:24,800 Speaker 1: a painter? And this is my view. This is not 582 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:26,680 Speaker 1: I'm not saying this is a commonly health view, but 583 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 1: this is my view, and that is the work I do. 584 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:32,200 Speaker 1: A It requires an audience and also somebody giving you 585 00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:36,080 Speaker 1: a role, right and someone and exactly someone unless you 586 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:38,960 Speaker 1: were self producing. But for you, my view of it 587 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:41,520 Speaker 1: as I'd sit there with and look at painters and 588 00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:43,360 Speaker 1: I think, God, how much I envy them that you 589 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:46,640 Speaker 1: sit in a room and you're totally self generating and 590 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:48,800 Speaker 1: you do exactly what you want to do, and then 591 00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:50,600 Speaker 1: you send it out into the world and say if 592 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:52,640 Speaker 1: you like it, great, If you don't, I really don't 593 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:56,640 Speaker 1: give a shit. You know, it's completely un self conscious 594 00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:59,360 Speaker 1: in that way unless you're doing a commission. And do 595 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:01,400 Speaker 1: you feel that I don't give a ship as a 596 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:05,680 Speaker 1: protective a response. I think it's like, God, I hope 597 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:09,640 Speaker 1: they liked they oh, sure, yeah, but I don't. I 598 00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:13,920 Speaker 1: don't believe any painters sitting there pretending that they only 599 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:16,960 Speaker 1: do the work for themselves and stuff. They're they're they're 600 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:21,000 Speaker 1: seeking some kind of resonance, some some response. Yeah, have 601 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:23,480 Speaker 1: you Have you ever done a painting and you were mistaken, 602 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:27,040 Speaker 1: meaning you did a painting And I'm being very melodramatic here, 603 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:28,480 Speaker 1: but you did a painting and you were done, even 604 00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:31,560 Speaker 1: you said, good God, official, you've done it. There it 605 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:34,520 Speaker 1: is there, you have it. And then and the painting 606 00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:37,840 Speaker 1: did not succeed in one term, and then other times 607 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:39,760 Speaker 1: you sat there and said the opposite, this is a 608 00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:41,080 Speaker 1: piece of crap in it was one of your most 609 00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:45,800 Speaker 1: successful has that happened, Not in the extreme, But I've 610 00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:49,920 Speaker 1: certainly done paintings that I thought were better than they 611 00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:54,040 Speaker 1: were received. And I've certainly had the experience where I've 612 00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:57,800 Speaker 1: seen paintings that I didn't think were so good when 613 00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:01,480 Speaker 1: I did them and see them ten years later and go, 614 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:05,800 Speaker 1: you know, that actually isn't that bad. So I don't know, 615 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:13,480 Speaker 1: But now it with people that you photograph, manipulate, paint, 616 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:16,200 Speaker 1: whatever verb you want to use for the work you do, 617 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:19,560 Speaker 1: and the stages of the work you do. How much 618 00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:22,719 Speaker 1: would you say you're a view of people, because I think, 619 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:25,120 Speaker 1: like most men, we have this in common, which is 620 00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:28,799 Speaker 1: this kind of relationship of your mother. And if you 621 00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:31,279 Speaker 1: have a good relationship with your mother, let's say you 622 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:33,560 Speaker 1: want to replicate that and have a terrible relationship with 623 00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:35,320 Speaker 1: your mother. You want to find someone is the opposite 624 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:38,520 Speaker 1: of your mother, or you want to restage the drama 625 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:40,640 Speaker 1: with your mother. As a therapist, one said to me, 626 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:42,880 Speaker 1: we want to restage that in our lives, and you 627 00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:47,680 Speaker 1: get all the good lines now. So I think all 628 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:51,480 Speaker 1: art expression is in some way trying to correct a 629 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:53,879 Speaker 1: lot of stuff. And if you're trying to put some 630 00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:57,720 Speaker 1: clarity to it, some order to it, make it makes sense. 631 00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:00,560 Speaker 1: You know, how would you think that you're you? You're 632 00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:03,879 Speaker 1: very candid about your mother, who was obviously very ill. 633 00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:06,800 Speaker 1: You know, she's a very sick woman, and that plays 634 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:10,040 Speaker 1: out on her behavior. Um, she wasn't a mean spirited 635 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:14,960 Speaker 1: wom she was she was just completely control And how 636 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:18,719 Speaker 1: would you say that? Colored? Because count to three when 637 00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:22,080 Speaker 1: you read the book and your bell bottoms and hate 638 00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:24,560 Speaker 1: Ashbury and you're into a very kind of summer of love. 639 00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:26,360 Speaker 1: Sixty six, I thin, Because when you head out to 640 00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:28,560 Speaker 1: the West Coast and you're in the thick of it, 641 00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:30,600 Speaker 1: how do you think, what did you carry out there 642 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:32,880 Speaker 1: with you in terms of your idea about women, what 643 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:35,719 Speaker 1: you wanted or well I had to you know, sort 644 00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:41,960 Speaker 1: of two kinds of relationships with women. One one was 645 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:46,359 Speaker 1: I was attracted to women that were absolutely bad for me. 646 00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:51,160 Speaker 1: They opened up that void, you know, just emptiness that 647 00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:55,600 Speaker 1: in a way that was like yeah, and you know, 648 00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:58,200 Speaker 1: it was full of passion and it was full of 649 00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:01,600 Speaker 1: you know this, you know, found need and stuff like 650 00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:06,279 Speaker 1: that was very emotional and very short lived. And then 651 00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:09,560 Speaker 1: the other kind of woman was one where you know, 652 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:15,920 Speaker 1: they were really stable, reliable and reliable, and yeah, I 653 00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:20,960 Speaker 1: married them. You're married to April. I married I was 654 00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:25,800 Speaker 1: married once before and stable and stable enough. Yeah, but 655 00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:30,440 Speaker 1: then yeah, I married April and you know for the 656 00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:35,200 Speaker 1: last thirty some odd years. Yeah. Did your work change 657 00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:38,480 Speaker 1: in sync with your attitude toward love and relationships? It 658 00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:43,160 Speaker 1: did with time. You know, the early relationship with April, 659 00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:46,960 Speaker 1: for example, we were both young artists, really trying to 660 00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:52,239 Speaker 1: find our voices, trying to understand who we were. I 661 00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:57,600 Speaker 1: was dealing with the wounds of the past as opposed 662 00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:02,200 Speaker 1: to the you know, the present with her. So it 663 00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:06,839 Speaker 1: wasn't apparent then other than the stability of our relationship 664 00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:11,560 Speaker 1: gave me the courage to look into these other Well, 665 00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:16,120 Speaker 1: you know, she's incredibly bright, She's somebody that can multitask 666 00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:19,600 Speaker 1: in a in an emotional way. Do you have children? 667 00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:22,160 Speaker 1: Do you think that that was partly because of what 668 00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:24,520 Speaker 1: your childhood? Yeah, I think we're both. April and I 669 00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:30,920 Speaker 1: had a lot very traumatic things that passed that made 670 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:35,520 Speaker 1: that that seemed dangerous. There there was a point at 671 00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:40,960 Speaker 1: which I felt like I could handle having kids, but 672 00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:44,319 Speaker 1: April wasn't there yet. And the one thing I wasn't 673 00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:47,640 Speaker 1: gonna do was insist that we do it my way 674 00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:50,560 Speaker 1: because I know what that she was only going to 675 00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:53,799 Speaker 1: indulge you so far. Yeah, and and or or it 676 00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:55,799 Speaker 1: was going to break her down in a way that 677 00:37:55,880 --> 00:38:01,160 Speaker 1: I couldn't bear. So, you know, it passed. M hm. Now, 678 00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:04,440 Speaker 1: in the book your Father, he went that route that 679 00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:06,120 Speaker 1: a lot of dads go, which is he just wants 680 00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:08,680 Speaker 1: to give you the safe advice. Yeah, his parental duty 681 00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:10,920 Speaker 1: was to say to you, you know, let's be reasonable now. 682 00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:13,000 Speaker 1: And he told you to go to get a business 683 00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:16,200 Speaker 1: did your father live to see you become a great success? 684 00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:19,560 Speaker 1: He did? Yeah, my my mother didn't. My father did 685 00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:25,640 Speaker 1: He He actually didn't understand what success was in art anyway, 686 00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:32,520 Speaker 1: that he'd kind of given up by then, right, So, yeah, exactly. 687 00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:35,000 Speaker 1: She would a very very kind of icy relationship with 688 00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:39,200 Speaker 1: it was. It was volatile and complicated. But you know, 689 00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:41,920 Speaker 1: he he really didn't know anything about art, so he 690 00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:44,440 Speaker 1: didn't really know anything about what success in art was. 691 00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:51,120 Speaker 1: And back then, you know, success and fortune were not 692 00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:53,680 Speaker 1: connected to each other in the art world. You you 693 00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:58,680 Speaker 1: could be highly successful, you know, shown in museums around 694 00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:02,239 Speaker 1: the world, and and they'll be doing a teaching job 695 00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:06,160 Speaker 1: or driving a taxi or something to do it. So 696 00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:10,120 Speaker 1: he was perplexed that I would even be in a 697 00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:15,640 Speaker 1: field in which there wasn't a monetary reward necessarily, right. 698 00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:21,399 Speaker 1: But at some point he started to see my name 699 00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:25,960 Speaker 1: in print, and that was something that he understood as success. 700 00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:31,240 Speaker 1: And then he really flipped from from sort of disengagement 701 00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:35,480 Speaker 1: to the proud parent who you know. We we'd go 702 00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:38,000 Speaker 1: into a grocery store and at the checkout, country guard, 703 00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:40,480 Speaker 1: you know who this is my son. This is the 704 00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:44,360 Speaker 1: artist that he take the clipping out of his wallet exactly. 705 00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:48,120 Speaker 1: This is from the New York Times. That's E R 706 00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:55,600 Speaker 1: I see F I s h L. Well, you know 707 00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:59,799 Speaker 1: he uh, he became an artist at the end of 708 00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:05,640 Speaker 1: his life as well. He he discovered collage, and it 709 00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:09,160 Speaker 1: took him a while after he retired to find He 710 00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:10,759 Speaker 1: tried other things, and then all of a sudden he 711 00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:15,280 Speaker 1: found himself like sitting in his office at home cutting 712 00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:19,640 Speaker 1: pictures out and gluing them together. And by the time 713 00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:23,520 Speaker 1: he died, I had realized that he and I could 714 00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:27,520 Speaker 1: never talk to each other. We just kept missing, you know, 715 00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:33,200 Speaker 1: but we understood each other visually, and so he would 716 00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:37,080 Speaker 1: send me his collages and I knew exactly what he 717 00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:40,320 Speaker 1: was thinking about, where he was at, how he was feeling, 718 00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:44,400 Speaker 1: and he showed me that he was had been using 719 00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:49,560 Speaker 1: my paintings to understand what had happened in our lives 720 00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:53,120 Speaker 1: with my mother and the whole family dynamic. So it 721 00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:56,600 Speaker 1: was it was deeply rewarding to me ultimately too. But 722 00:40:56,680 --> 00:40:58,719 Speaker 1: it took me a while to understand that they were 723 00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:02,800 Speaker 1: talked to about your paint and his painting. Well at first, 724 00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:06,120 Speaker 1: I mean he didn't he talked to me about success. 725 00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:08,799 Speaker 1: You know he could see and be enthusiastic for this 726 00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:12,319 Speaker 1: show and that show, etcetera, etcetera. But there was this 727 00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:17,319 Speaker 1: uh thing that happened. There was I think, um, you know, 728 00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:19,640 Speaker 1: really blew my mind, which was that I had done 729 00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:24,440 Speaker 1: a painting called a Woman Possessed. And it was a 730 00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:29,640 Speaker 1: painting of a woman outside the suburban home, drunk, passed 731 00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:33,680 Speaker 1: out in the driveway, surrounded by these dogs that were like, 732 00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:37,479 Speaker 1: you know, beasts from hell were you know, some were 733 00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:41,040 Speaker 1: sniffing her somewhere, growling at at the sun. Who had 734 00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:43,200 Speaker 1: could just come home from school. The school books are 735 00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:45,839 Speaker 1: on the ground, his bicycles flipped over, he hopped off 736 00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:49,120 Speaker 1: his bike. So this boy is trying to pull her 737 00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:56,040 Speaker 1: away from these dogs and her demon dogs. I I 738 00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:59,280 Speaker 1: showed the painting in Toronto and the and the critic 739 00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:04,680 Speaker 1: described it in the most beautiful terms. He understood it 740 00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:10,120 Speaker 1: as as a painting that revealed the profound pain of love, 741 00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:15,320 Speaker 1: of loving someone, right, And he wrote extensively about it. 742 00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:18,520 Speaker 1: And so you know, proud son sends it to my father, 743 00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:23,680 Speaker 1: and unbeknownst to me, my father sends the review of 744 00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:28,759 Speaker 1: off to my siblings, right, and my younger sister Lori 745 00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:33,440 Speaker 1: writes back a letter to him. She's furious, why is 746 00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:37,000 Speaker 1: he trying to make her remember this painful time? You know? 747 00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:40,440 Speaker 1: And he shared these letters to me. I didn't know 748 00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:44,120 Speaker 1: they were having until the whole communication came to me, 749 00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:48,400 Speaker 1: but he shared to me her response and then his 750 00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:52,080 Speaker 1: response to her, in which he revealed that he had 751 00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:57,279 Speaker 1: been actually using my paintings the whole time to understand 752 00:42:57,719 --> 00:43:01,000 Speaker 1: emotionally what had been happening in our lives and stuff, 753 00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:06,040 Speaker 1: and that he was just trying to heal something, you know, 754 00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:08,839 Speaker 1: trying to bring her into it as well, into two, 755 00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:12,359 Speaker 1: into a kind of healing process, and to acknowledge his awareness, yeah, 756 00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:16,839 Speaker 1: which which took me completely by surprise, and that that 757 00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:19,839 Speaker 1: he had been seeing the work as deeply as he had, 758 00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:24,839 Speaker 1: you know, revealed, which is what I intended I hope 759 00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:31,560 Speaker 1: for you, Yeah, exactly. Coming up, Eric Fischel shares his 760 00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:41,400 Speaker 1: thoughts about art, commerce and love. I make a painting 761 00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:45,640 Speaker 1: out of love, and I'm seeking love in return. I 762 00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:50,399 Speaker 1: want that to come back in that way. Right, So 763 00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:55,000 Speaker 1: somebody gives you money, right, on one hand, you think, well, 764 00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:57,840 Speaker 1: that's an expression of love. They want to possess your work, 765 00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:01,640 Speaker 1: so so they're they're expressing in love, but money doesn't 766 00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:06,520 Speaker 1: feel like love because it's a neutral currency. Now I 767 00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:10,480 Speaker 1: have to change that money into something that tells me 768 00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:25,120 Speaker 1: how much love I just got back. This is Alec 769 00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:28,560 Speaker 1: Baldwin and you're listening to here's the thing. My guest 770 00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:31,480 Speaker 1: today is Eric Fischel. For years, he and his wife 771 00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:35,160 Speaker 1: worked out of their downtown Manhattan studio. He says the 772 00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:37,960 Speaker 1: city of the nineties was the perfect place to develop 773 00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:41,520 Speaker 1: his craft. However, for official, developing a tolerance for the 774 00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:45,760 Speaker 1: business of art has proven more difficult. I do these 775 00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:51,680 Speaker 1: works on paper that oil on paper, their sketches. They're 776 00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:54,240 Speaker 1: a great pleasure for me to do. Some of them 777 00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:57,040 Speaker 1: lead to painting, some of them don't. But it's it's 778 00:44:57,040 --> 00:45:02,160 Speaker 1: an activity that I do. And uh, there was a 779 00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:06,839 Speaker 1: time when they would be sold, you know, for like 780 00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:11,120 Speaker 1: five thousand dollars, and then you know, ten thousand dollars, 781 00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:17,680 Speaker 1: and I uh, at some point on the secondary market 782 00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:20,520 Speaker 1: they were selling for a hundred thousand dollars. So you 783 00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:24,359 Speaker 1: go back into the studio and you're, you know, I'm 784 00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:27,840 Speaker 1: making my sketches and stuff like that, and I'm looking 785 00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:31,239 Speaker 1: at and thinking, well, why not do a couple more, 786 00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:34,360 Speaker 1: you know, why not? You know, it's like all of 787 00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:36,960 Speaker 1: a sudden, they're starting to turn into currency, you know, 788 00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:40,359 Speaker 1: and which is a totally different sort of way of 789 00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:42,759 Speaker 1: thinking about and how much and how hard is it 790 00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:45,600 Speaker 1: for you to resist? Because I was joking with a 791 00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:48,480 Speaker 1: friend of mine and I said, what it must be 792 00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:52,239 Speaker 1: like in your world where you're completely self determining, where 793 00:45:52,239 --> 00:45:55,360 Speaker 1: you're completely self generating, I get kind of amazed. I 794 00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:57,160 Speaker 1: sit there and say, Eric Fisher is the kind of 795 00:45:57,160 --> 00:45:59,399 Speaker 1: guy where if he and April are like laying there 796 00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:01,560 Speaker 1: in bed on Sunday, I mean, I have a very 797 00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:06,360 Speaker 1: kind of a silly improv comedy view of April Gornick 798 00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:08,920 Speaker 1: and Eric Fisher are lying in bed on a Sunday 799 00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:11,719 Speaker 1: reading the New York Times, and she turns in and goes, Eric, 800 00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:17,000 Speaker 1: I'd so love to go Hella skiing. And You're like, sure, baby, 801 00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:19,240 Speaker 1: let's go Hell. And you go out and you paint 802 00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:23,080 Speaker 1: a painting hell of skiing trip. I mean, like, like, 803 00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:24,960 Speaker 1: you can you can just go do a painting. You're 804 00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:28,360 Speaker 1: Eric ficial and running out the door, whether you like, 805 00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:34,279 Speaker 1: Like how hard this fantasy that when my muse left 806 00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:39,120 Speaker 1: me I would still be able to make product right, 807 00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:42,640 Speaker 1: that I that that I wouldn't be making art anymore, 808 00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:45,600 Speaker 1: but I'd be making things that look like art, and 809 00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:50,720 Speaker 1: that that was okay, right, And so there were times 810 00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:55,719 Speaker 1: in my process where I got stuck. I I the 811 00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:59,279 Speaker 1: inspiration was gone, and I was sure that it now, 812 00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:02,640 Speaker 1: you know, I mused my inspiration and had left right 813 00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:07,160 Speaker 1: a total blockage kind of thing. And what I found, 814 00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:11,000 Speaker 1: to my horror, was that it didn't just leave my head, 815 00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:16,440 Speaker 1: it left my hand, and that I actually couldn't paint anymore. 816 00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:20,960 Speaker 1: I I couldn't draw, I couldn't make something look like something, 817 00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:25,719 Speaker 1: and that was terrifying. Right, That's that's like your worst nightmare. 818 00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:31,680 Speaker 1: And so I have that memory, which keeps it gives 819 00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:36,440 Speaker 1: me somewhat, you know, focused on on staying to true 820 00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:41,160 Speaker 1: to my ultimate goal. So you're there. So what's the 821 00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:43,759 Speaker 1: longest period you went you didn't paint. It's it's not 822 00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:47,279 Speaker 1: so much that I didn't paint. I kept trying like 823 00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:50,239 Speaker 1: a bulldog one and I just keep trying to go 824 00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:54,440 Speaker 1: through it. It's just it's dead, dead, dead. So my 825 00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:58,319 Speaker 1: question for you is do you find that And I've 826 00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:00,840 Speaker 1: seen this with myself and other people, where when the 827 00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:04,560 Speaker 1: muse goes away when you lapse into a period of 828 00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:08,239 Speaker 1: product versus art. When the artist, and that's a very 829 00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:12,560 Speaker 1: real condition, struggles. I found people where it affects them 830 00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:18,040 Speaker 1: in many ways. It affects their appetite, their sexual appetite, 831 00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:22,160 Speaker 1: their physical health, their emotional health, their sleep. I mean, 832 00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:24,960 Speaker 1: it really really really damages them and it hurts them. 833 00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:27,640 Speaker 1: Have you gone through periods of that where you were like, really, really, 834 00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:31,080 Speaker 1: I thought you were losing it? Would you doet out 835 00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:36,319 Speaker 1: of it? I ultimately painted the way out of it? 836 00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:39,560 Speaker 1: But you know, rely relied a lot on April to 837 00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:43,680 Speaker 1: you know, keep me sort of above. So you bring 838 00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:45,800 Speaker 1: me to where? So you bring me to where are 839 00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:49,080 Speaker 1: the One of our last two questions is, let's go 840 00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:51,840 Speaker 1: to Halifax and you meet April And where are you 841 00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:53,760 Speaker 1: at your life when you meet April? And what happened? 842 00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:59,279 Speaker 1: I'm twenty seven years old or something like that. I'm 843 00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:05,320 Speaker 1: teaching at this art school. It actually is a very 844 00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:11,640 Speaker 1: sort of advanced thinking, a place that like cal Arts 845 00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:14,640 Speaker 1: where I went to school, Nova Scotia College of Art 846 00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:17,000 Speaker 1: and Design was also sort of based on the most 847 00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:22,920 Speaker 1: radical art of the moment um anti painting. So they 848 00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:28,279 Speaker 1: hired me as a young, untested teacher, simply because they'd 849 00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:33,160 Speaker 1: fired somebody mid semester, needed someone right away. They could 850 00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:35,799 Speaker 1: care less about painting, so they took a risk on 851 00:49:35,880 --> 00:49:40,200 Speaker 1: this guy based on what my former teacher had recommended. 852 00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:45,600 Speaker 1: I get this job. I'm in Halifax, Nova, Scotia. I 853 00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:49,080 Speaker 1: go up there with my wife at the time, spend 854 00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:53,719 Speaker 1: three months teaching there. She lapsing into a deep depression 855 00:49:53,760 --> 00:50:00,600 Speaker 1: because she she's rootless and being ignored. And I'm following 856 00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:04,000 Speaker 1: you basically and following me, and I'm not sensitive enough 857 00:50:04,040 --> 00:50:08,239 Speaker 1: to it. You know what that sacrifice was. And you know, 858 00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:11,640 Speaker 1: we moved back to Chicago in the summer and I 859 00:50:11,680 --> 00:50:14,279 Speaker 1: get rehired, and she announces she didn't want to go 860 00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:20,399 Speaker 1: back and our marriage is over. And that following year, 861 00:50:21,080 --> 00:50:25,239 Speaker 1: I meet April. I didn't plan on falling in love. 862 00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:30,840 Speaker 1: I just planned on having sex. And shame on you 863 00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:39,840 Speaker 1: error call me shallow. Anyway, one thing led to another, 864 00:50:40,160 --> 00:50:43,320 Speaker 1: and and what it was was I was actually going 865 00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:49,880 Speaker 1: through a very sort of complicated set of emotions for uh, 866 00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:53,200 Speaker 1: you know, I had never mourned the death of my mother. 867 00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:57,319 Speaker 1: I had just broken up with, you know, split with 868 00:50:57,360 --> 00:51:01,400 Speaker 1: my wife kind of thing. I was now falling in 869 00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:07,120 Speaker 1: love not wanting to with April. My work was going 870 00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:10,200 Speaker 1: through a transition where I was giving up the artists. 871 00:51:10,239 --> 00:51:12,560 Speaker 1: I thought I was going to be for the artist 872 00:51:12,680 --> 00:51:16,400 Speaker 1: I ultimately became. And that period of doubt threw me 873 00:51:16,440 --> 00:51:22,960 Speaker 1: into a kind of series of anxiety attacks panic modes 874 00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:28,880 Speaker 1: where I really began to have some serious psychological issues. 875 00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:33,480 Speaker 1: I was dissociating and you know, and ended up on 876 00:51:34,040 --> 00:51:36,960 Speaker 1: you know, any psychotic medicine and stuff like that to 877 00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:44,719 Speaker 1: stabilize me. Meanwhile, I'm teaching. Meanwhile, you're up showing these young, 878 00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:48,480 Speaker 1: impressionable minds the world through your lives. Let me show 879 00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:50,800 Speaker 1: you the world through my clumb up and soaked eyes. 880 00:51:51,480 --> 00:51:54,040 Speaker 1: And I was only a couple of years older than 881 00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:56,719 Speaker 1: them to begin with. Your young teach and I had 882 00:51:56,880 --> 00:51:59,800 Speaker 1: I had never been taught technique. So I'm teaching you 883 00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:02,959 Speaker 1: do Georgie thing like your teacher were doing at cal Arts. 884 00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:05,080 Speaker 1: Was that or that day come and gone that day? 885 00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:11,880 Speaker 1: You know, to some extent, I was definitely going through 886 00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:15,839 Speaker 1: several women in the in the student body, but not 887 00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:20,839 Speaker 1: all at the same moment. But um, it was a sacrifice. Yeah, 888 00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:23,640 Speaker 1: I mean, it's a you know, it's a small isolated 889 00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:27,520 Speaker 1: community that winters are harsh up there Skilligan's Island. Yeah, 890 00:52:27,719 --> 00:52:30,440 Speaker 1: and when the skipper runs into Ginger and Marianne, we 891 00:52:30,440 --> 00:52:32,680 Speaker 1: can only talk about the weather for so many times 892 00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:35,440 Speaker 1: because then the title charts, So go ahead. So the 893 00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:39,080 Speaker 1: skipper runs into Ginger and marian Yeah, and ultimately ran 894 00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:42,879 Speaker 1: ran into April. And uh, she stuck with me through 895 00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:47,919 Speaker 1: this time, which was really difficult, and in a kind 896 00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:51,560 Speaker 1: of way that you know, I just couldn't imagine there 897 00:52:51,560 --> 00:52:56,920 Speaker 1: being anybody else. She's actually my my greatest, most clear 898 00:52:57,000 --> 00:53:00,000 Speaker 1: scene critic, your most prevalent subject. If you paint her 899 00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:03,960 Speaker 1: her more than any other person. Yes, yeah, I've painted 900 00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:07,759 Speaker 1: her a lot. I've painted her in in disguised ways, 901 00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:10,239 Speaker 1: and I've painted her in ways where you can see 902 00:53:10,239 --> 00:53:14,719 Speaker 1: it's her. Um. So, now you are a very well 903 00:53:14,760 --> 00:53:19,040 Speaker 1: known man. You and your wife are a very admired 904 00:53:19,120 --> 00:53:22,040 Speaker 1: couple in a community that you live in. And I 905 00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:24,520 Speaker 1: want to ask you, uh, you know, a why do 906 00:53:24,600 --> 00:53:28,000 Speaker 1: you live out here? Particularly you could escape, like a 907 00:53:28,040 --> 00:53:31,440 Speaker 1: lot of great artists, finally won't have real anonymity in peace. 908 00:53:31,480 --> 00:53:33,960 Speaker 1: You can go live in Italy or anywhere you want 909 00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:37,120 Speaker 1: to go. Yeah. I think there was a moment a 910 00:53:37,120 --> 00:53:40,319 Speaker 1: while back where I kind of looked around and went, oh, 911 00:53:40,360 --> 00:53:43,120 Speaker 1: my god, you know this is this is where I 912 00:53:43,160 --> 00:53:47,279 Speaker 1: grew up. I'm in a different relationship to it. But 913 00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:51,640 Speaker 1: I but it's definitely, you know, more of a suburban 914 00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:56,399 Speaker 1: than an urban environment and a and a suburban kind 915 00:53:56,400 --> 00:54:01,520 Speaker 1: of rhythm to it. But everybody needs a sense of community, 916 00:54:01,520 --> 00:54:06,000 Speaker 1: needs a sense of place where where they belong. Right, Um, 917 00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:08,719 Speaker 1: I grew up on Long Island. You grew up on 918 00:54:08,719 --> 00:54:12,880 Speaker 1: Long Island. I used to come out here in the summertime. 919 00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:18,919 Speaker 1: It's familiar territory, etcetera. It seems natural in a way 920 00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:23,799 Speaker 1: to want to be here. Ah. So is it safe 921 00:54:23,840 --> 00:54:27,319 Speaker 1: to say, just to conclude this, if you will, that 922 00:54:28,160 --> 00:54:33,160 Speaker 1: the eponymous bad boy of the title still has his doubts, 923 00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:37,600 Speaker 1: still has his anxiety, still has his fears and issues, 924 00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:40,520 Speaker 1: and so he just just learned to handle them differently. 925 00:54:41,840 --> 00:54:45,960 Speaker 1: I think that's true. Yeah, absolutely, they don't go away. 926 00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:49,520 Speaker 1: I thought that the older you got, the easier, at God, 927 00:54:49,760 --> 00:54:52,759 Speaker 1: it turns out the opposite. We just learned how to 928 00:54:52,800 --> 00:54:57,320 Speaker 1: manage it. You just manage it. Yeah, Yeah, that's true. 929 00:54:58,080 --> 00:55:01,240 Speaker 1: Eric Fischel's work Hangs and Museic ms and galleries around 930 00:55:01,239 --> 00:55:05,080 Speaker 1: the world and on our website Here's the Thing dot org. 931 00:55:05,560 --> 00:55:07,840 Speaker 1: And if you happen to find yourself in New York City, 932 00:55:08,160 --> 00:55:11,120 Speaker 1: you can see his glass mosaic entitled The Garden of 933 00:55:11,160 --> 00:55:16,000 Speaker 1: Circus Delights beneath Madison Square Garden in Penn Station officials 934 00:55:16,080 --> 00:55:22,200 Speaker 1: inspiration for the piece Dante's Inferno Here's the Thing. You 935 00:55:22,239 --> 00:55:25,960 Speaker 1: can hear more in depth conversations in our archive, from 936 00:55:26,080 --> 00:55:30,680 Speaker 1: artists to policymakers to performers like Radioheads frontman Tom Yorke 937 00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:34,440 Speaker 1: on performing. You know, I often asked myself, why the 938 00:55:34,520 --> 00:55:39,200 Speaker 1: hell would you put yourself through this? Because it's very stressful. 939 00:55:39,360 --> 00:55:41,640 Speaker 1: It's a lot of pressure, and for me mentally, I 940 00:55:41,840 --> 00:55:45,600 Speaker 1: just build myself up to it in my head gradually 941 00:55:45,840 --> 00:55:48,880 Speaker 1: and it sounds really precious, but it messes with my head. 942 00:55:49,680 --> 00:55:56,440 Speaker 1: Listen to more at Here's the Thing dot org. This 943 00:55:56,520 --> 00:55:59,000 Speaker 1: is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing. 944 00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:03,240 Speaker 1: Produced by Emily Boutine and Kathy Russo with Chris Bannon, 945 00:56:03,440 --> 00:56:07,880 Speaker 1: Jim Briggs, ed Herbstman, Melanie Hoops, Monica Hopkins, Trey Ka, 946 00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:12,960 Speaker 1: Sharon Machee, and Lou Okowski. Thanks to Larry Josephson and 947 00:56:13,239 --> 00:56:14,440 Speaker 1: the Radio Foundation,