1
00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,360
Speaker 1: This episode of the Chuck Todcast is brought to you

2
00:00:02,400 --> 00:00:06,240
Speaker 1: by Wild Grain. Wild Grain is the first bake from

3
00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:11,280
Speaker 1: frozen subscription box for sour dough breads, artisonal pastries, and

4
00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:14,800
Speaker 1: fresh pastas, plus all the items conveniently baked in twenty

5
00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:18,759
Speaker 1: five minutes or less. Unlike many store brought options, Wild

6
00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:21,880
Speaker 1: Grain uses some simple ingredients you can pronounce and a

7
00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:25,480
Speaker 1: slow fermentation process that can be a lot easier on

8
00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:28,080
Speaker 1: your belly, little gut health there right, and richer in

9
00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:32,600
Speaker 1: nutrients antioxidants. There's also no preservatives and no shortcuts. The

10
00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:35,800
Speaker 1: Wild Grain boxes are fully customizable. In addition to their

11
00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:38,920
Speaker 1: variety box, they have a gluten free box, a vegan box,

12
00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:42,559
Speaker 1: and a new protein box. I will tell you I

13
00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:44,960
Speaker 1: have done the gluten free box. I have done it

14
00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:48,600
Speaker 1: a second time. I have also used the code, the

15
00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:52,040
Speaker 1: todcast code. If you use the promo code toodcast at checkout,

16
00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:55,640
Speaker 1: you get thirty dollars off. I've already used it as

17
00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:58,880
Speaker 1: a gift to somebody else who loves this bread. It

18
00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:02,560
Speaker 1: is hard to find good gluten free bread. It is fantastic.

19
00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:05,720
Speaker 1: They give you step by step instructions. I really dig this.

20
00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:09,760
Speaker 1: There is nothing like having an artesian bakery in your

21
00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:12,560
Speaker 1: freezer to chase away the winter chill. Now is the

22
00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:15,920
Speaker 1: best time to stay in and enjoy some comforting homemade

23
00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:19,600
Speaker 1: meals with Wildgrain. I obviously highly recommend it. It is

24
00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:22,399
Speaker 1: worth giving wild Grain to try. Right now, Wildgrain is

25
00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:25,520
Speaker 1: offering my listeners thirty dollars off your first box plus

26
00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:28,840
Speaker 1: free croissants for life. Come on when you go to

27
00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:32,959
Speaker 1: wildgrain dot com slash podcast to start your subscription today.

28
00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:36,360
Speaker 1: That's thirty dollars off your first box and free croissants

29
00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:39,640
Speaker 1: for life when you visit wildgrain dot com slash podcast,

30
00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:43,640
Speaker 1: or simply use the promo code podcast at checkout. This

31
00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:50,080
Speaker 1: is a sponsor I absolutely embrace, so use that code.

32
00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:51,040
Speaker 2: Well.

33
00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:54,720
Speaker 1: Joining me now is somebody I've actually multiple iterations of

34
00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:56,400
Speaker 1: my podcast over the years, but I think it's the

35
00:01:56,440 --> 00:01:59,040
Speaker 1: first time since I left NBC that I have had

36
00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:01,600
Speaker 1: her on. It'sine Mango Ward. She's the editor in chief

37
00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:08,080
Speaker 1: of Reason magazine, essentially the magazine of the libertarian movement.

38
00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:10,840
Speaker 1: I would say, and I'll let her describe how closely

39
00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:15,359
Speaker 1: aligned they are with the party itself. But what triggered

40
00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:18,320
Speaker 1: the invite? And frankly, it was more of like, why

41
00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:20,680
Speaker 1: haven't I had Catherine on sooner? Was this op ed?

42
00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:22,440
Speaker 1: She wrote a couple of weeks ago the New York

43
00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:26,000
Speaker 1: Times that was so helpfully headlined, Libertarians tried to warn

44
00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:30,000
Speaker 1: you about Trump, but maybe we got lost in an

45
00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:33,440
Speaker 1: at Aleppo rabbit hole. But I'm sorry for that, Sorry

46
00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:36,560
Speaker 1: for that little poke and joke there, going back to

47
00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:40,080
Speaker 1: Gary Johnson, but Catherine joins me now, and Catherine, it's

48
00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:41,840
Speaker 1: good to see you. Sorry it's taken so long.

49
00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:43,359
Speaker 3: Of course, thanks for having me on.

50
00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:47,080
Speaker 1: So you know, I use this all the time whenever

51
00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:49,000
Speaker 1: I'm asked to do talks. I said, you know, we

52
00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:51,520
Speaker 1: all find out how libertarian we are when we don't

53
00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:55,239
Speaker 1: like the party that's in charge of our politics in

54
00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:57,560
Speaker 1: any given moment, which is why when you see people

55
00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:03,639
Speaker 1: from a majority party behaving as libertarians before they're partisans,

56
00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:05,399
Speaker 1: it gives you a little bit of hope. But there's

57
00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:07,280
Speaker 1: not many of those folks that behave this way. But

58
00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:12,480
Speaker 1: you know, I think fundamentally that's what the Supreme Court

59
00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:16,760
Speaker 1: ruling last week in some ways was as a reminder

60
00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:21,640
Speaker 1: that that there is structure that should you know, the

61
00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:24,480
Speaker 1: whole goal of the Founders was not to let any

62
00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:28,720
Speaker 1: body become a king and let unilateral control of government

63
00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:35,800
Speaker 1: arguably a libertarian point of view. So tell me your

64
00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:38,840
Speaker 1: motivation for writing the outbed was it I told you so?

65
00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:42,720
Speaker 3: You know, I actually have said in public. In fact,

66
00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:47,160
Speaker 3: that I told you so doesn't usually win arguments. But

67
00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:49,240
Speaker 3: what I discovered is that there is an exception here,

68
00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:53,160
Speaker 3: which is when the I told you so is also

69
00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:56,640
Speaker 3: kind of validating in the readers, in this case, the

70
00:03:56,680 --> 00:03:59,040
Speaker 3: readers of the New York Times, something they had been

71
00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:02,480
Speaker 3: telling themselves too. So part of what this piece is

72
00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:05,920
Speaker 3: about is, you know, libertarians have been making this sort

73
00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:10,480
Speaker 3: of thorough going, consistent case against the rise of executive

74
00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:15,120
Speaker 3: power and kind of the imbalance that that's creating. But

75
00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:18,360
Speaker 3: a lot of folks who identify as kind of mainstream

76
00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:21,440
Speaker 3: Democrats or the kind of imagined reader of the Times

77
00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:26,200
Speaker 3: are skeptical about those things when it comes to a

78
00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:28,719
Speaker 3: bunch of the places where Trump has suddenly started pushing hard.

79
00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:31,680
Speaker 3: So we're talking here about trade, we're talking here about immigration,

80
00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:35,640
Speaker 3: that kind of thing. There was already a lot of

81
00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:37,719
Speaker 3: commonality there, so in some ways it was more of

82
00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:41,279
Speaker 3: a remember how you're a little bit libertarian to my

83
00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:42,279
Speaker 3: friends and readers.

84
00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:46,240
Speaker 1: No, it's I like to remind people that this, and

85
00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:49,920
Speaker 1: I think it's probably explains why it's been so difficult

86
00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:54,159
Speaker 1: for the libertarian movement to fully unify, because there is

87
00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:57,480
Speaker 1: a libertarian wing of the Democratic Party. It's you know,

88
00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:00,440
Speaker 1: I feel like Jared Poulos and Colorad I was sort

89
00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:03,080
Speaker 1: of the poster child that most repress. He would say,

90
00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:06,040
Speaker 1: he goes, We're for freedoms, freedoms here, freedom on your body,

91
00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:08,760
Speaker 1: freedom of autonomy, things like that. And then of course

92
00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:11,560
Speaker 1: we've we've known there's a libertarian wing of the Republican

93
00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:13,880
Speaker 1: Party for some time, but it went dormant for a

94
00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:18,320
Speaker 1: little while, but it was What's interesting is it's mostly

95
00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:21,840
Speaker 1: been a phenomenon geographically out west right. When you look

96
00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:26,080
Speaker 1: at the old Republican coalition pre Trump, it was the

97
00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:31,080
Speaker 1: Western Republicans who were the conservatives who would surprise quote

98
00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:34,640
Speaker 1: unquote surprise people by votes sometimes because there was a

99
00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:38,440
Speaker 1: libertarian streak in them. Alan Simpson is probably the best

100
00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:42,479
Speaker 1: example of this in the previous era, and maybe Lisa

101
00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:45,440
Speaker 1: Markowski is the best example of this today well.

102
00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:48,680
Speaker 3: And you do see this in some unexpected places as well,

103
00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:51,840
Speaker 3: like in Utah, where of course the politics are often

104
00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:54,479
Speaker 3: quite dominated by Mormons, but where they do actually quite

105
00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:58,440
Speaker 3: a good job of protecting minority rights, probably because of

106
00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:01,440
Speaker 3: the backstory of Mormons and other things, right, so they're

107
00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:05,080
Speaker 3: riff for a Laws that protect religious freedoms, for example,

108
00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:08,839
Speaker 3: are surprisingly libertarian. You see a lot of school choice

109
00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:12,520
Speaker 3: out west for similar reasons, sometimes with bipartisan or kind

110
00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:16,599
Speaker 3: of mixed support. In terms of who's sending libertarians to

111
00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:20,200
Speaker 3: the hill right now though, Kentucky, you know we have

112
00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:24,800
Speaker 3: both right of all places, Primus Massey, who are neither

113
00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:27,680
Speaker 3: neither I would say, are you know, as libertarian as

114
00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:30,000
Speaker 3: I would like them to be every day, all the time,

115
00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:34,560
Speaker 3: but pretty clearly deserve the title of most libertarian on

116
00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:34,880
Speaker 3: the hill.

117
00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:39,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think they're culturally. You know, it's always culture

118
00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:44,479
Speaker 1: where that I think gets somebody on either side of

119
00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:49,760
Speaker 1: the spectrum tripped up on libertarianism, right, whether it's on

120
00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:54,280
Speaker 1: racial or social justice on the left or on call

121
00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:55,440
Speaker 1: it wokeness on the right.

122
00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:59,800
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, I think that's true. I also think you know,

123
00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:01,720
Speaker 3: there there's a version of this piece. We can get

124
00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:03,719
Speaker 3: into the details a little bit more. But as I

125
00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:05,960
Speaker 3: say that, the piece for the Times, the last you know,

126
00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:09,279
Speaker 3: a couple of weeks ago, I focused on immigration and

127
00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:13,120
Speaker 3: trade and speech where you know, Trump is kind of

128
00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:17,840
Speaker 3: being the least libertarian, although quite unlibertarian in so many ways.

129
00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:20,200
Speaker 3: There's a version of this piece I could have written

130
00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:23,920
Speaker 3: under the Biden administration on the other side of the equation, where.

131
00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:25,960
Speaker 1: Well, was that tell me, tell it, express it so

132
00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:27,960
Speaker 1: that we're not just saying absolutely yeah.

133
00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:29,640
Speaker 3: I mean I think that the version of this piece

134
00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:34,320
Speaker 3: here is, you know, libertarians have been warning you about

135
00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:37,520
Speaker 3: the dangers of debt and deficit. We've been warned, and

136
00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:39,360
Speaker 3: that actually, frankly, you can make that argument just as

137
00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:43,640
Speaker 3: well under any administration. But you know, libertarians have been

138
00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:48,000
Speaker 3: warning you about the dangers of an entitlement programs that

139
00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:53,360
Speaker 3: are totally out of control, and we've been warrying about

140
00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:56,080
Speaker 3: the dangers of overregulation. And this would be places where

141
00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:58,680
Speaker 3: people on the right would be in that moment when

142
00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:00,440
Speaker 3: they are out of power and predisp supposed to be

143
00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:02,880
Speaker 3: friendly to libertarians saying like, oh yeah, that is something

144
00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:05,640
Speaker 3: libertarians have been saying, and it is something that you know,

145
00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:09,000
Speaker 3: kind of Reaganite conservative maybe once said, but we might

146
00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:09,680
Speaker 3: have lost sight of.

147
00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:12,840
Speaker 1: I think the one place where and this is where

148
00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:15,880
Speaker 1: I want to, because you know, there are some sort

149
00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:21,480
Speaker 1: of sixty thousand foot point of views of libertarianism where

150
00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:24,240
Speaker 1: it's easy to get sixty or seventy percent in agreement

151
00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:28,440
Speaker 1: of where government shouldn't be. And arguably, you know, if

152
00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:30,240
Speaker 1: you read the Bill of Rights, you could argue that's

153
00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:34,600
Speaker 1: the libertarian that it's almost like we built in right,

154
00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:37,400
Speaker 1: there sons of liberty for a reason. Right, libertarian is

155
00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:40,400
Speaker 1: built off of liberty for a reason. Right. The first

156
00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:44,880
Speaker 1: ten Amendments are those amendments that regardless of your personal ideology,

157
00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:48,880
Speaker 1: and these and they were designed to protect minority rights. Right,

158
00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:53,240
Speaker 1: people always forget the entire Constitution is premised on minority rights,

159
00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:56,400
Speaker 1: and it's always something that I think the majority always

160
00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:57,559
Speaker 1: seems to forget.

161
00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:01,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, when you're in the majority, you are tempted,

162
00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:04,520
Speaker 3: understandably so to think, you know, this is where we

163
00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:07,320
Speaker 3: The word mandate always gets thrown around, right, Oh, we

164
00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:11,840
Speaker 3: have a mandate for first of all, American elections in

165
00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:15,240
Speaker 3: recent memory haven't given anyone a mandate anywhere as far

166
00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:18,720
Speaker 3: as I'm concerned. They're often very close. There's low participation.

167
00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:20,880
Speaker 1: To me, sixty percent of mandate and we haven't had

168
00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:24,560
Speaker 1: a sixty percent president even in job approval ratings. You know,

169
00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:27,080
Speaker 1: you had it briefly for Bush at after nine to eleven,

170
00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:30,600
Speaker 1: and Bill Clinton only got it after they came after

171
00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:33,160
Speaker 1: him to impeach him for sex. Like Soda was like,

172
00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:35,120
Speaker 1: well wait a minute. You know we liked the job.

173
00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:37,000
Speaker 1: This guy's do it, but it was only when it

174
00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:40,240
Speaker 1: was threatened to take away. Right, you really haven't seen

175
00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:42,679
Speaker 1: us with a with a sixty percent mindset as an

176
00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:44,320
Speaker 1: electorate since the Cold War.

177
00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:46,920
Speaker 3: Right, So there's this temptation to say, like, we won

178
00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:49,320
Speaker 3: the election, we do what we want, and I think

179
00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:55,120
Speaker 3: not only is that poisonously bad politics, and especially not

180
00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:59,359
Speaker 3: just we won the election, but we hold the presidency

181
00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:01,640
Speaker 3: and we do what we want because increasingly that is

182
00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:04,120
Speaker 3: what it means to do things in politics in any

183
00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:07,920
Speaker 3: way shape or form. Is emergency orders, executive orders. It's

184
00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:12,160
Speaker 3: all coming out of the executive Congress. You know, the

185
00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:15,200
Speaker 3: Supreme Court in their in their ruling this week begged

186
00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:17,160
Speaker 3: Congress to do their jobs again.

187
00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:20,600
Speaker 1: Gorst chop ed was something.

188
00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:21,960
Speaker 3: Huh, it was so good.

189
00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:24,560
Speaker 1: Excuse me I called it a not ed because it

190
00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:25,600
Speaker 1: really was.

191
00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:26,800
Speaker 3: You were right the first time.

192
00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:28,760
Speaker 1: It is it op ed He basically was like, I

193
00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:31,880
Speaker 1: got to get something off my chest here. Yeah.

194
00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:34,320
Speaker 3: It was juicy. And you know, I have had my

195
00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:37,240
Speaker 3: disagreements with some of Gorsch's rulings, but I think the

196
00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:39,160
Speaker 3: way that he hit the nail on the head there

197
00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:42,199
Speaker 3: is just, you know, it's undeniable.

198
00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:45,840
Speaker 1: By the way, a Western conservative avative. I mean, I'm

199
00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:47,800
Speaker 1: just not saying, I'm just saying Colorado.

200
00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:53,480
Speaker 3: So I think, you know, this this kind of this

201
00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:57,520
Speaker 3: idea that we hold power whoever we are and whatever

202
00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:02,560
Speaker 3: power is, and so therefore speed ahead. When as you say,

203
00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:06,439
Speaker 3: you know, our founding documents do not endorse that perspective

204
00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:11,360
Speaker 3: on the presidency or the executive branch, and the American

205
00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:14,440
Speaker 3: public doesn't actually think that either. They don't you know,

206
00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:18,040
Speaker 3: when you look at the polling, especially about you know,

207
00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:23,920
Speaker 3: about the ice enforcement actions in major cities, they don't

208
00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:25,440
Speaker 3: like it. They see it, and they don't like it.

209
00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:28,000
Speaker 3: When you look at the you know, how the markets

210
00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:30,800
Speaker 3: are responding to tariffs, they're seeing it and they don't

211
00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:33,080
Speaker 3: like it. And then you know, additionally, now we have

212
00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:35,280
Speaker 3: how the court responds. They see it and they don't

213
00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:37,520
Speaker 3: like it. And all of those signals are really meaningful

214
00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:39,280
Speaker 3: and the founders meant them to be meaningful.

215
00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:42,160
Speaker 1: You know, you brought up in the in the times

216
00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:44,760
Speaker 1: up at about you know, the warrantless searches when it

217
00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:47,280
Speaker 1: comes to the ice agents and what we're seeing there.

218
00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:50,200
Speaker 1: Where are all the conservatives who are up in arms

219
00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:54,040
Speaker 1: about giving Obama you know this power, you know, supposedly

220
00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:56,760
Speaker 1: eavesdropping power. Back when we were fighting the so called

221
00:11:56,760 --> 00:12:00,559
Speaker 1: warrant terror, we're quite a few conservatives. It wasn't majority,

222
00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:04,000
Speaker 1: but it was a healthy minority of conservatives and a

223
00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:08,120
Speaker 1: and a smaller but a healthy minority of liberals who

224
00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:11,160
Speaker 1: did raise some civil liberties issues at the time on

225
00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:14,840
Speaker 1: that issue. Where are those folks today?

226
00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:18,880
Speaker 3: I wish I knew I would find them. I would,

227
00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:22,080
Speaker 3: you know, bring them into a safe shelter here at

228
00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:24,880
Speaker 3: the Reason Offices. I would. I would give them a

229
00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:28,040
Speaker 3: hot meal and a blanket, because surely they have been

230
00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:30,360
Speaker 3: out in the cold for so long I think, I

231
00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:33,560
Speaker 3: mean the So the actual answer, right is that over

232
00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:37,439
Speaker 3: the over the years, the presence of Trump in particular

233
00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:39,960
Speaker 3: and also just in general, the kind of will to

234
00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:43,280
Speaker 3: power conservatism that has risen in the GOP, this kind

235
00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:46,440
Speaker 3: of this idea that it is we are no longer

236
00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:48,280
Speaker 3: We no longer have to play fair. The other side

237
00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:51,320
Speaker 3: has already cheated, so we simply have to seize power

238
00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:56,000
Speaker 3: and use justify the means, justifies the means. That attitude

239
00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:58,839
Speaker 3: has sort of become a sendant on the left and

240
00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:02,560
Speaker 3: the right, but conservatives or Republicans, I should say, have

241
00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:06,160
Speaker 3: had more chance to put that into action, and that

242
00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:10,480
Speaker 3: has slowly pushed out a whole bunch of sub types

243
00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:13,559
Speaker 3: of Republicans and Conservatives who were a little more on

244
00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:17,040
Speaker 3: the libertarian side. So they've been primaried out. They've been

245
00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:19,360
Speaker 3: bullied out by Trump. You know he does. He is

246
00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:22,640
Speaker 3: not afraid to use his you know, true social account

247
00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:25,880
Speaker 3: to just say, you know, Thomas Massey's on the outscrew

248
00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:30,800
Speaker 3: this guy, and and some of them I think just

249
00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:33,880
Speaker 3: left in despair. I mean a lot of people who

250
00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:36,800
Speaker 3: I joined the right, a lot of people who I

251
00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:39,120
Speaker 3: admired in politics and who were sort of maybe slightly

252
00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:43,880
Speaker 3: quirky figures, just said I can't do this anymore. Basically,

253
00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:45,440
Speaker 3: anyone from Arizona ever.

254
00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:49,600
Speaker 1: Get out Matt Salmon, right, what happened?

255
00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:52,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, good old Matt Salmon, who I profiled when I

256
00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:57,080
Speaker 3: was an Internet reason twenty five years ago, and who

257
00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:01,080
Speaker 3: was you know, like quite libertarian and in many ways

258
00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:03,839
Speaker 3: and just you know, in that case, actually I think

259
00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:06,679
Speaker 3: he was part of the term limited crew, the voluntarily

260
00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:09,520
Speaker 3: self term limited crew who all went out at the

261
00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:12,320
Speaker 3: and that kind of end stage of the Gingra Revolution.

262
00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:15,839
Speaker 1: But here's where I think, you know, if I were

263
00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:18,199
Speaker 1: to say, boy, this should be a moment for libertarianism,

264
00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:20,280
Speaker 1: and there's we can and I think you're uped sort

265
00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:22,960
Speaker 1: of showed it a little bit. But if there's one

266
00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:28,760
Speaker 1: giant area where I have my doubts, it's in how

267
00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:33,440
Speaker 1: to deal with big tech m because right there's and

268
00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:35,200
Speaker 1: to me, this is and and I'd love for you

269
00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:38,760
Speaker 1: to get at this tension, right, don't know if I

270
00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:43,640
Speaker 1: love the government forcing you know, sort of you know,

271
00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:47,560
Speaker 1: picking winners and losers here overly regulating at the same time,

272
00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:53,720
Speaker 1: these cats don't deserve an open runway without some restraint,

273
00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:57,160
Speaker 1: and the market is not mature enough to restrain them

274
00:14:57,280 --> 00:15:00,400
Speaker 1: at this moment. Right, market restraint hasn't worked the way

275
00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:04,360
Speaker 1: it should work. There's been too much consolidation. So let

276
00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:08,400
Speaker 1: me start it this way. It's Teddy Roosevelt a libertarian.

277
00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:13,160
Speaker 3: For reasons if my own safety, among other things. I

278
00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:15,560
Speaker 3: wouldn't presume to put a label on that man, even

279
00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:20,560
Speaker 3: this many years later, you know. I I think the

280
00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:24,000
Speaker 3: thing about big tech is that almost always when people

281
00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:28,320
Speaker 3: describe the thing they fear from big tech, what is

282
00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:32,840
Speaker 3: the what is the consequence that we're looking to to prevent?

283
00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:35,520
Speaker 3: When we talk about, you know, our worries with big tech,

284
00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:38,920
Speaker 3: actually it is almost always a fear about the state.

285
00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:43,200
Speaker 3: And so when I say that, I mean, well, okay,

286
00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:46,480
Speaker 3: maybe I don't want you know, one company having all

287
00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:49,840
Speaker 3: my data. Well, okay, why is it because you're worried

288
00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:51,800
Speaker 3: that they're going to sell you stuff? No, that's not

289
00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:58,000
Speaker 3: Why is it because you're worried that they might aggregate

290
00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:03,960
Speaker 3: that data and you know, paint a portrait of the market,

291
00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:07,440
Speaker 3: or or even of the electorate. Okay, maybe, But what

292
00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:09,840
Speaker 3: we actually are worried about is, well, what happens when

293
00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:14,960
Speaker 3: the government gets its hands on that data and uses

294
00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:20,400
Speaker 3: it to punish, in prison, censor or otherwise, you know,

295
00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:22,560
Speaker 3: infringe on your rights. And what we've seen, what we

296
00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:25,480
Speaker 3: saw for example in the Twitter files was sometimes big

297
00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:29,520
Speaker 3: tech gladly cooperates with the state, and I think that

298
00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:33,520
Speaker 3: is gross and bad but I'm not sure that the

299
00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:36,080
Speaker 3: entity at fault or kind of the place that I

300
00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:38,320
Speaker 3: want to lay the blame there fully is with big tech,

301
00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:42,640
Speaker 3: because of course they understand that, you know, in that instance,

302
00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:48,080
Speaker 3: the Biden administration, but all presidential administrations, they hold a

303
00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:50,000
Speaker 3: huge amount of power in that relationship. You know, it's

304
00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:51,720
Speaker 3: a nice it's a nice big tech company. You have

305
00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:53,520
Speaker 3: there be a shame if something happened to it. Is

306
00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:55,840
Speaker 3: kind of the energy that a lot of these interactions have.

307
00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:01,920
Speaker 3: I for one, don't mind Mark Zuckerberg selling trying to

308
00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:04,800
Speaker 3: sell me, or put in front of my eyeballs whatever

309
00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:09,399
Speaker 3: videos of AI puppies and you know, Chinese toys he

310
00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:12,600
Speaker 3: wants to try to sell me. I just don't want

311
00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:16,400
Speaker 3: to have consequences to my personal freedom. And I think

312
00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:18,720
Speaker 3: the fear there is that the state acts, not that

313
00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:19,800
Speaker 3: the tech companies act.

314
00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:22,840
Speaker 1: Well, so, I mean this is where I think that

315
00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:26,200
Speaker 1: this is another But this is the tension that I

316
00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:29,840
Speaker 1: I'm detecting, which is I think most libertarians agree they

317
00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:32,720
Speaker 1: distrust anybody who's consolidating power.

318
00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:36,520
Speaker 3: Right, well, there are lots of types of libertarians, right

319
00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:42,480
Speaker 3: so I actually think, you know, I hate to be

320
00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:44,400
Speaker 3: that guy, but It depends what you mean by power.

321
00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:47,920
Speaker 3: If you mean market power, not necessarily, if you mean

322
00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:50,280
Speaker 3: monopoly on violence and the like.

323
00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:53,760
Speaker 1: I think it's money. I think, I know, maybe it's

324
00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:55,639
Speaker 1: like pornography, you know, when you see it, it's the

325
00:17:55,760 --> 00:18:02,480
Speaker 1: it's sort of you know, it's monopolistic power, where like

326
00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:06,520
Speaker 1: Amazon may be a monopoly, but they kind of earned it, right,

327
00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:11,240
Speaker 1: they just outworked everybody perhaps, And you can make that case. Yeah,

328
00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:14,280
Speaker 1: you know the fact that they get deliveries at my house,

329
00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:17,199
Speaker 1: but the US Postal Service still isn't reliable since that

330
00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:20,400
Speaker 1: first snowstorm, right, it like it tells you you're like, look,

331
00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:24,200
Speaker 1: whatever you think of them, right, they are customer first.

332
00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:26,240
Speaker 1: I mean, I kind of wish Jeff Bezos thought about

333
00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:29,720
Speaker 1: that in the way he owns News a newspaper. But

334
00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:33,680
Speaker 1: that's okay, But I digress. So they may be a monopoly,

335
00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:36,840
Speaker 1: but one could argue they earned it. But if you

336
00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:40,080
Speaker 1: look at when government helps a company, when government is

337
00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:43,119
Speaker 1: involved and the inner So I guess the question is,

338
00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:45,600
Speaker 1: how do you prevent what Trump is doing right now

339
00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:48,760
Speaker 1: with the tech industry? Right, that has to come with

340
00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:51,080
Speaker 1: some government, Like you're going to have to have government

341
00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:54,840
Speaker 1: regulation intervened to stop government from doing what it's doing right.

342
00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:56,840
Speaker 3: And so this is this is where you get into

343
00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:59,680
Speaker 3: a horrible circumstance because any of the solutions that I

344
00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:04,000
Speaker 3: might proposed now at best are a balance of power

345
00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:07,200
Speaker 3: solution where one part of government might constrain another part

346
00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:10,520
Speaker 3: of government, but sometimes are just kind of like a

347
00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:16,080
Speaker 3: cultural sea change type solution where we would just all

348
00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:18,120
Speaker 3: agree in some way that this has gone too far

349
00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:19,360
Speaker 3: and people would win.

350
00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:21,520
Speaker 1: Our founders would say, well, Congress, should.

351
00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:24,600
Speaker 3: It right their job. So I think this is you know,

352
00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:26,480
Speaker 3: what what Trump has done. The place is where Trump

353
00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:28,840
Speaker 3: has really pushed the envelope in terms of corporate governance,

354
00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:30,800
Speaker 3: and this is often with respect to big tech, although

355
00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:33,959
Speaker 3: not always is. He's really moved into like full fledged

356
00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:38,200
Speaker 3: economic nationalism in ways that his predecessors were not always

357
00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:40,479
Speaker 3: refusing to do, but a little more hesitant. So this

358
00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:44,359
Speaker 3: is the Golden Shares. This is you know, with Intel

359
00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:48,159
Speaker 3: and other This is approval of the TikTok deal just

360
00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:51,679
Speaker 3: arbitrarily kind of coming from the from this the federal

361
00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:54,760
Speaker 3: government a bunch of other things like that, where it's

362
00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:57,239
Speaker 3: a much more direct intervention in the market. And then

363
00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:01,919
Speaker 3: when you pair that with the tariffs, where I think

364
00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:03,879
Speaker 3: Trump just likes tariffs and he does tariffs because he

365
00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:05,800
Speaker 3: just likes tariffs. And that's a bizarre thing that I

366
00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:08,560
Speaker 3: can't fully understand. But what it does do is it

367
00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:12,439
Speaker 3: creates infinite opportunities for cronyism. And that's what you're talking about, right,

368
00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:18,280
Speaker 3: You're talking about where the prize of buying influence is

369
00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:21,560
Speaker 3: worth the cost. And so if we have a tariff,

370
00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:24,400
Speaker 3: but if you know the right guy, you can get

371
00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:27,080
Speaker 3: an exception from the tariff, and if that guy is

372
00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:32,080
Speaker 3: always Donald Trump, are one of his children, then that,

373
00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:36,320
Speaker 3: you know, that creates all these opportunities for the kind

374
00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:39,640
Speaker 3: of cronyism that, for whatever reason, so often does seem

375
00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:44,200
Speaker 3: to make Americans hate the corporations and not the government.

376
00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:46,120
Speaker 3: And I would just say, like, hate the government. Hate

377
00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:50,080
Speaker 3: the government for creating all these opportunities to buy influence.

378
00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:53,359
Speaker 3: And the solution is, you know, if tariffs are low

379
00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:58,479
Speaker 3: and simple and implemented equally across the board, there's no

380
00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:03,840
Speaker 3: influence to buy. The FCC is disempowered, there's no threats

381
00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:07,959
Speaker 3: that can be made by the White House to you know,

382
00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:13,000
Speaker 3: revoke your broadcast license, and that kind of move is

383
00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:15,439
Speaker 3: just like a very classic libertarian move, Like, this is

384
00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:19,200
Speaker 3: what libertarians have been saying all along is if there

385
00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:23,520
Speaker 3: is no FCC, you don't have cronyism in that area.

386
00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:28,280
Speaker 3: If there is no elaborate new tariff scheme every time

387
00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:31,440
Speaker 3: that someone comes into office, that reduces those opportunities.

388
00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:34,800
Speaker 1: So this is what you're basically saying is, look is

389
00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:46,440
Speaker 1: regulatory capture can be just as damaging then no regulation itself.

390
00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:50,560
Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, And I well, I mean I guess I

391
00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:53,400
Speaker 3: think the fact.

392
00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:55,480
Speaker 1: That's what the cronyism leads to, right, which is a

393
00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:59,119
Speaker 1: fact what the AI guys want. The AI companies are

394
00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:02,119
Speaker 1: afraid of the state. It's getting involved in regulation, so

395
00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:05,520
Speaker 1: they want federal right and they're just because they want to.

396
00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:10,400
Speaker 1: You know, once they get market share, then they want to, wow,

397
00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:12,560
Speaker 1: we've got Now we can fix the market because it'll

398
00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:16,160
Speaker 1: be designed around our piece of the pie. I mean,

399
00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:19,800
Speaker 1: this is a totally non sequitur, but it drives me crazy,

400
00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:22,199
Speaker 1: Like I do not want to hear from Nick Saban

401
00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:25,320
Speaker 1: I'm fixing college football because Nick Saban just wants to

402
00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:29,440
Speaker 1: restore the dominance he once had and Alabama once had.

403
00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:33,399
Speaker 1: So he says, boy, college football is a mess because

404
00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:37,080
Speaker 1: there's no because the way the order that we previously

405
00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:41,480
Speaker 1: had is no longer operable. Well from his point of view,

406
00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:44,280
Speaker 1: it's a mess, and maybe it is a mess, but

407
00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:46,960
Speaker 1: you don't want somebody who was the previous beneficiary to

408
00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:47,680
Speaker 1: be the fixer of.

409
00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:50,480
Speaker 3: It, right, And so this is you know, as you say,

410
00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:54,199
Speaker 3: regulatory capture is a huge issue here, rent seeking. I

411
00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:57,840
Speaker 3: do think though, you know, my perspective is that is

412
00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:02,600
Speaker 3: all the more reason to have few or simple and

413
00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:06,760
Speaker 3: very egalitarian regulations. And I think you know, you see this,

414
00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:11,240
Speaker 3: you see this temptation showing up all kinds of places.

415
00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:14,919
Speaker 3: I mean, you remember the period whatever it was, maybe

416
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:17,560
Speaker 3: like seven or eight years ago, when they kept bringing

417
00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:21,520
Speaker 3: in the big tech CEOs and founders to sort of testify,

418
00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:23,639
Speaker 3: and they did, they have hearings and they'd say, like,

419
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:27,760
Speaker 3: my iPhone's not working, and then it would be like, sir,

420
00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:30,520
Speaker 3: I work for Google. Like that whole interaction that was

421
00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:35,080
Speaker 3: happening regularly, and some of that was about the big

422
00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:39,280
Speaker 3: tech companies that had become dominant trying to lock in

423
00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:42,400
Speaker 3: their place. And I think you're quite right that there

424
00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:44,600
Speaker 3: is and will be more of a similar phenomenon with

425
00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:47,080
Speaker 3: some of the bigger AI players. But at the same time,

426
00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:49,879
Speaker 3: what we've seen is there's actually a lot of churn

427
00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:53,919
Speaker 3: in big tech. Like one of the reasons that debate

428
00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:56,160
Speaker 3: was happening around Facebook at that time where we were

429
00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:59,000
Speaker 3: saying should we treat Facebook as a public utility is

430
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:00,720
Speaker 3: because it seemed like they were the biggest game in

431
00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:03,880
Speaker 3: town and no one would ever break Facebook's hold. And

432
00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:06,560
Speaker 3: Facebook is certainly still big and certainly still around, but

433
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:10,679
Speaker 3: there are several major competitors and if you if you

434
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:13,080
Speaker 3: look at the market cap or the market you know,

435
00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:15,399
Speaker 3: the share of users that these different companies have, it

436
00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:17,919
Speaker 3: changes rapidly. So that does seem to me like market

437
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:20,480
Speaker 3: discipline is working to some extent. They're like, they're not

438
00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:21,560
Speaker 3: permanent monopolies.

439
00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:27,679
Speaker 1: This episode of the Chuck Podcast is brought to you

440
00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:30,959
Speaker 1: by ze Biotics. Let's face it, after a night with drinks,

441
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:33,280
Speaker 1: it's hard to bounce back the next day. You have

442
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:35,840
Speaker 1: to make a choice either have a great night or

443
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:39,439
Speaker 1: a great next day. Well that's where pre alcohol comes in.

444
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:43,439
Speaker 1: Z Biotics. Pre alcohol probiotic drink is the world's first

445
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:47,680
Speaker 1: genetically engineered probiotic. It was invented by PhD scientists to

446
00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:50,359
Speaker 1: tackle rough mornings after drinking. Here's how it works. When

447
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:53,679
Speaker 1: you drink, alcohol gets converted into a toxic byproduct in

448
00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:56,160
Speaker 1: the gut. It's a build up of this by product,

449
00:24:56,240 --> 00:25:00,639
Speaker 1: not dehydration that's to blame for the rough days. Drinking

450
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:04,359
Speaker 1: pre alcohol produces an enzyme to break this byproduct down.

451
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:07,960
Speaker 1: Just remember to make pre alcohol your first drink of

452
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:12,400
Speaker 1: the night. Drink responsibly and you'll feel your best tomorrow. Now. Look,

453
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:15,479
Speaker 1: I don't drink anymore, so I can't give zbiotics pre

454
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:19,160
Speaker 1: alcohol a personal endorsement. But my producer Lauren does drink

455
00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:21,680
Speaker 1: and he tried it out. Lauren, how was your experience,

456
00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:24,000
Speaker 1: I'll be honest, Chuck. I was a bit skeptical at first,

457
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:25,440
Speaker 1: but the other night I went out with my wife

458
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:27,879
Speaker 1: to our favorite spot from Margarita's and tried pre alcohol

459
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:30,199
Speaker 1: beforehand and got to admit I was surprised by how

460
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:32,000
Speaker 1: good I felt the next morning. Disable the pop right

461
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 1: out of bed, get a workout in, have a great

462
00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:36,680
Speaker 1: day of work. So pre alcoholic gets my stamp of approval.

463
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:38,720
Speaker 1: So there you go. You ready to try it, Go

464
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 1: to zbiotics dot com slash Chuck podcast right now. You'll

465
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:45,320
Speaker 1: get fifteen percent off your first order when you use

466
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:48,200
Speaker 1: Chuck Podcast at checkout. Plus it's backed by a one

467
00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:52,440
Speaker 1: hundred percent money back guarantee, so there's no risk. Subscriptions

468
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,639
Speaker 1: are also available for maximum insistency. Remember to hedad to

469
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:59,960
Speaker 1: zebiotics dot com slash Chuck Podcast and use the code

470
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:04,320
Speaker 1: code Chuck Toodcast at checkout for the fifteen percent discount. Again,

471
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:09,040
Speaker 1: use the code Chuck Toodcast. This episode of the Chuck

472
00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:12,200
Speaker 1: Podcast is brought to you by American Financing. Let's be honest,

473
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:14,720
Speaker 1: the math just isn't adding up lately. Between the grocery

474
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:17,920
Speaker 1: store and those skyrocketing insurance premiums. Even with a steady job,

475
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,520
Speaker 1: more families are being forced to rely on high interest

476
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 1: credit cards to cover expenses. So if you're a homeowner

477
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:26,560
Speaker 1: caught in this cycle carrying balances with interest rates in

478
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,160
Speaker 1: the twenties, frankly even the thirties, it's time to get

479
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:31,200
Speaker 1: some relief. Right now, mortgage rates are at a three

480
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 1: year low, and my friends at American Financing are helping

481
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:37,480
Speaker 1: homeowners pay off that high interest debt at rates in

482
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:41,879
Speaker 1: the low fives. Their salary based mortgage consultants don't just

483
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:45,640
Speaker 1: push loans on you. They build exit strategies from debts.

484
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:49,040
Speaker 1: On average, they're saving their customers eight hundred dollars a month,

485
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:51,639
Speaker 1: so if you start today, you may even delay the

486
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:54,200
Speaker 1: next two mortgage payments. There are no upfront fees or

487
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:58,040
Speaker 1: obligations to find out how much you can save. America's

488
00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:01,920
Speaker 1: Home for home loans is a American Finance eight six

489
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:06,040
Speaker 1: six eight eight five ten eighty one. That's eight six

490
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:11,439
Speaker 1: six eight eight five ten eighty one, or Americanfinancing dot

491
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:16,119
Speaker 1: net slash the Chuck Toodcast. Important disclaimer n m l

492
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:19,639
Speaker 1: S one A two three three four n m l

493
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:23,960
Speaker 1: S Consumer Access dot Org APR for rates in the

494
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 1: five start at six point one ninety six percent for

495
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:30,120
Speaker 1: well qualified buyers. Call eight six six eight eight five

496
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 1: one zero eight one for details about credit costs and terms,

497
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:41,119
Speaker 1: or American Financing dot net slash the chucktodcast. Well, I

498
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:43,600
Speaker 1: could you know. This is what makes the FCC community,

499
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:47,720
Speaker 1: the whole FCC such a weird place now, because you know,

500
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:53,840
Speaker 1: the monopoly of broadcast television has been broken up by YouTube, right,

501
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 1: and the FCC has no oversight over YouTube at all.

502
00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:58,879
Speaker 1: And on YouTube you can use say whatever word you

503
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:00,880
Speaker 1: want and on YouTube, you're going to whatever you know,

504
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:04,320
Speaker 1: there isn't the same FCC sort of you know, so

505
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:08,160
Speaker 1: I now it arguably took fifty years for a competitor

506
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:11,440
Speaker 1: to come up to break that monopoly, or maybe had

507
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:13,119
Speaker 1: they not had the FCC in the first place, there

508
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:16,600
Speaker 1: would have been more TV networks popping up on the

509
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:18,720
Speaker 1: spectrum than the three that we had.

510
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:21,960
Speaker 3: So you know, well, that actually for sure is my argument.

511
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:23,920
Speaker 3: I think that is the argument of kind of dynamists

512
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:28,119
Speaker 3: or pro market folks, especially in media and communications, is

513
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 3: you will you can almost always tell a story and

514
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:34,119
Speaker 3: it's a pretty plausible one about how any amount of

515
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 3: regulation is in a market where there's where, there will

516
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:41,720
Speaker 3: be competitors, where there's where, and it's an attractive market,

517
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:46,000
Speaker 3: is so likely to serve to lock in existing players

518
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 3: and then they will capitalize on that.

519
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 1: So this is how it's like, we're in its purest form. Right.

520
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:57,600
Speaker 1: The libertarians sometimes get tossed aside by saying, well, they

521
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 1: don't even believe in driver's licenses, right, like, and this

522
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 1: is where, you know, where where do you draw the

523
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:06,400
Speaker 1: line where is some government regulation acceptable?

524
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 3: I mean, for me, libertarianism is directional, right, So I

525
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:14,960
Speaker 3: would like, if we get to a place where you

526
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 3: and I have to come back on the Chuck Podcast

527
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:21,960
Speaker 3: and earnestly debate like the driver's license removal Bill of

528
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:23,440
Speaker 3: twenty thirty seven.

529
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 1: Is you're like, we're winning. I don't care, right, I'll

530
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 1: lose this, Sue.

531
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 3: I am delighted if we get to that place, but

532
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 3: we are so far from there right now.

533
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:34,920
Speaker 1: No, in fact, just the opposite. I'm going to need

534
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:37,240
Speaker 1: a Burth certificate just to like go to the grocery store.

535
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:39,440
Speaker 1: And when we're all said and done, the.

536
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 3: Way you have a real id for this, you know.

537
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:45,200
Speaker 1: Get airplan that I paid for a ticket, right.

538
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 3: So I think you know, I totally understand you know

539
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:53,240
Speaker 3: that people would say I'm interested in knowing where where

540
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 3: you think the limits are, and that's a perfectly legitimate

541
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 3: conversation to have. But at this point, and this is

542
00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:00,280
Speaker 3: sort of what the Times editorial was meant to highlight,

543
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 3: like there are a bunch of places where it's just

544
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 3: very very clear that from a libertarian perspective, the critique

545
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 3: is broadly shared. Like I think trade actually is the

546
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:15,960
Speaker 3: most straightforward. The way that Trump has conducted trade policy

547
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:21,960
Speaker 3: in his second term is wildly unmoored both from good

548
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:27,720
Speaker 3: economic sense and from legality, like from any kind of

549
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 3: constitutional understanding of who holds these powers and why. And

550
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:34,480
Speaker 3: that just doesn't seem like a hard one to me.

551
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 3: That one seems like And.

552
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:39,040
Speaker 1: In fact, who knew that this is how the free

553
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:41,880
Speaker 1: trade argument would end? Because I actually think in some way,

554
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 1: you know Trump is going to be has been a

555
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:51,840
Speaker 1: useful mri on so many people entities and ideas. Trade

556
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 1: is a big one, right, I mean, you've got an

557
00:30:55,280 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 1: entire Democratic Party expressing free trade rhetoric in ways they

558
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 1: never would have done even five years ago. Yeah, I mean,

559
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:08,120
Speaker 1: you know, I'm I'll know for sure that this is

560
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:11,960
Speaker 1: over when Shared Brown starts advocating for free trade in

561
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,360
Speaker 1: his center race, I'm very curious how that plays out,

562
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:17,360
Speaker 1: read because he's sort of like he is a a

563
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 1: bridge to the older Democratic Party, the one that used

564
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:25,120
Speaker 1: to have all the union workers, and now that it's

565
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 1: the it's Trump's party that does so I'm curious there.

566
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:31,480
Speaker 1: But it does feel as if this has been a

567
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,760
Speaker 1: useful lesson in Oh, free trade is why I can

568
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:38,200
Speaker 1: get an avocado anytime maybe you're at the grocery store. Yes,

569
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:42,240
Speaker 1: And that was always the dream, and here we are right, like, hey,

570
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:44,720
Speaker 1: you don't understand. If you start getting rid of this stuff,

571
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:48,000
Speaker 1: then then free trade is going to benefit you in

572
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:50,160
Speaker 1: ways you haven't thought of. And to me, the produce

573
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 1: section is the number one way to show people how

574
00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 1: free trade over the last twenty years. I mean, I

575
00:31:57,320 --> 00:31:59,880
Speaker 1: forgot how seasonal the produce section used to be in

576
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:02,240
Speaker 1: grocery store. I worked in one in the eighties and

577
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:04,960
Speaker 1: before when I was a night school in college. And

578
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:08,240
Speaker 1: now you're like, oh, right, we've gotten rid of seasonality

579
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:12,040
Speaker 1: basically in the twenty first century due to lowering trade barriers.

580
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:17,720
Speaker 3: I was talking with my son who had heard about,

581
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 3: but never consumed a red Delicious apple, and he was like,

582
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:26,920
Speaker 3: what was the deal with those? Because they were bad? Right?

583
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 3: And I was like, well, okay, And we got into

584
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:34,000
Speaker 3: it right, and we're talking about how the supply chain

585
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:35,959
Speaker 3: used to be so different for grocery stores, and our

586
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:39,240
Speaker 3: transportation technology used to be so different. Consumers used to

587
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 3: be so much less discerning. You know, we were prioritizing

588
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 3: an apple the wooden bruise and would still look shiny

589
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 3: and like who cares so much about the inside? And

590
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 3: last long time, so what if.

591
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:50,440
Speaker 2: It has no flavor on these And we had this

592
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 2: whole conversation about how that thing made sense in that moment,

593
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:57,160
Speaker 2: and he has lived his entire life in a radically

594
00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 2: different moment that's totally marked by by free trade and

595
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:03,760
Speaker 2: by all of the technologies that support it.

596
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:06,560
Speaker 3: I do think, though, the thing you're describing where a

597
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:08,760
Speaker 3: bunch of people on the left are suddenly like, ooh,

598
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:14,120
Speaker 3: free movement of people and goods across borders. That sounds great.

599
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:16,920
Speaker 3: The flip side, though, the other side of the horseshoe,

600
00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 3: where we have people on the left and the right

601
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:27,040
Speaker 3: agreeing deeply confusingly for me on we should all live

602
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 3: simpler lives with only one kind of deodorant and do

603
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:34,600
Speaker 3: the manufacturing here. And you know the kind of Tucker

604
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 3: Carlson meets Elizabeth Warren.

605
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 1: Uh. You know, it's a form of naomic policy.

606
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 3: Again. That's that's where we end up. And I think

607
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 3: the shared rhetoric at that side of things is more reactionary,

608
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:52,120
Speaker 3: both from the left and the right. And you are

609
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:55,479
Speaker 3: right that what's happening is this kind of ever fatter

610
00:33:55,760 --> 00:34:02,600
Speaker 3: middle that remembers that we like grapes. But we had

611
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 3: that a little at the end of Trump's first term,

612
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 3: and then it sort of faded away. So I'm a

613
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:12,040
Speaker 3: little concerned that what looks like maybe a popular movement

614
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:13,880
Speaker 3: or some kind of agreement or god forbid, we call

615
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:17,799
Speaker 3: it again the libertarian moment, I'm concerned about how to

616
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 3: lock that in.

617
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:21,960
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, here's I'll give you another challenge. I

618
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:25,080
Speaker 1: for my subject this week, I wrote off of a

619
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:28,719
Speaker 1: survey that my friend Dante Cheni did with what he

620
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 1: calls the what he works on. It's called the American

621
00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:34,319
Speaker 1: Communities Project, and it put it divides the electorate up

622
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 1: by county type, and it's like fifteen different types, and

623
00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:39,640
Speaker 1: it's it's so it's less ideological. It's more like, you know,

624
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 1: here's what folks that live in the rural South versus

625
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 1: the evangelical hubs things in this various And one of

626
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:49,920
Speaker 1: the he was writing about, where do where are their

627
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:53,400
Speaker 1: large agreements even between the most rural parts of this

628
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:56,439
Speaker 1: country and the most urban parts of this country. It's

629
00:34:56,480 --> 00:35:00,960
Speaker 1: on the belief in the social safety net. So when

630
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:05,000
Speaker 1: I think about the quote libertarian moment, how do you

631
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:07,640
Speaker 1: have a libertarian moment and be supportive of the social

632
00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:09,680
Speaker 1: safety net? Like, where do you draw the line? And

633
00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 1: I know you talked about it directionally, but I think

634
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:16,360
Speaker 1: this is when I've thought about ways that where generally

635
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:21,120
Speaker 1: what the libertarians are advocating are very agreeable. When you

636
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:25,879
Speaker 1: start to get to specifics, that's where people fall off, right,

637
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:27,920
Speaker 1: And the social safety net is a big one.

638
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:30,920
Speaker 3: And arguably the last libertarian moment was sometime around the

639
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:35,920
Speaker 3: Tea Party, which you remember, and you know that was

640
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:40,279
Speaker 3: about in its original form, was about fiscal responsibility and

641
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:44,000
Speaker 3: government spending, but it also gave us the immortal and

642
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:47,440
Speaker 3: frankly maybe apocryphal. I'm not sure if how real it

643
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:49,680
Speaker 3: was or how widespread, but the government hands off my

644
00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:51,600
Speaker 3: Medicare protest sign?

645
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:54,240
Speaker 1: Right? Oh? That was that was when Mike, uh oh,

646
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:56,320
Speaker 1: we really have a civics education problem.

647
00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 3: I see, My uh oh? Wasn't we have a civic

648
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:00,480
Speaker 3: education problem?

649
00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:01,319
Speaker 1: Though we do?

650
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:05,880
Speaker 3: My uh oh was we found that we found the

651
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:08,440
Speaker 3: edge of people's willingness to cut things, and it is

652
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:11,920
Speaker 3: well south of what we're going to need to cut

653
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:15,440
Speaker 3: to solve this problem. Right, So I would say, again,

654
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:20,360
Speaker 3: there are plenty of folks who identify as libertarians and

655
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 3: support some form of social safety net but I think

656
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:25,560
Speaker 3: that that is a radically different thing than what we

657
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 3: have right now. So what we have right now is,

658
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 3: you know, for older people, we have a universal entitlement, right.

659
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:36,879
Speaker 3: It is a it is a transfer to the It.

660
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 1: Was originally pitched as poverty prevention.

661
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 3: Right, And it's not if they transfer to one of

662
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:44,360
Speaker 3: the wealthiest demographics. It goes to everyone without much regard

663
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:48,239
Speaker 3: to their income. We've been extremely reluctant to push up

664
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:51,400
Speaker 3: the age limit more than just a couple of years,

665
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:55,160
Speaker 3: despite people living longer and being healthier. There's all these

666
00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:58,839
Speaker 3: places where a thing that has that was pitched as

667
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:03,360
Speaker 3: a social safety net is is operating totally unlike you

668
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 3: would expect a reasonable social safety net to operate. And

669
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 3: I think you can see that with social Security, you

670
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:12,440
Speaker 3: can see it with our health care entitlements, especially Medicare,

671
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:16,520
Speaker 3: and you know, we can also see it in all

672
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 3: kinds of other places where I think you can get

673
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:21,440
Speaker 3: even more controversial, like education entitlements.

674
00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:21,719
Speaker 1: Right.

675
00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:26,359
Speaker 3: I'm not saying cut public schools tomorrow, but I am.

676
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:27,920
Speaker 1: Saying what about loans.

677
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:31,000
Speaker 3: Student loans is a great example of you know, we

678
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:34,520
Speaker 3: like the amount of student loan debt that is held

679
00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 3: by people in possession of master's degrees. Just that, like,

680
00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:43,040
Speaker 3: just that simple fact really puts paid to me to

681
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:46,800
Speaker 3: the idea that that is a poverty alleviation program, right,

682
00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:49,799
Speaker 3: and in fact, we've built it to encourage the acquisition

683
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:53,319
Speaker 3: of that kind of debt in particular. You know, people

684
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:55,480
Speaker 3: who will carry one hundred thousand dollars of student loan

685
00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:58,320
Speaker 3: debt are people who are better off than most people.

686
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:00,920
Speaker 1: And the idea is, why does a creditor agree to

687
00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:02,839
Speaker 1: do that if you're trying to because they assume you're

688
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:04,840
Speaker 1: actually going to have better earning power, You're going to

689
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 1: use that degree to go get better earning power and

690
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:09,239
Speaker 1: therefore actually be a pretty safe credit risk.

691
00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:11,800
Speaker 3: Well, and the fact that of course you can't dislarge

692
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:16,799
Speaker 3: dislodge student discharged student loan debt unlike other types of

693
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:20,600
Speaker 3: debts makes it a safer bad as well. So I think,

694
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:24,200
Speaker 3: you know again, that's that's another program, this hugely expensive

695
00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 3: that is sort of sold to some kind of you know,

696
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:34,680
Speaker 3: equity enhancing program and is in fact functioning nothing like that.

697
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:37,840
Speaker 3: If we had any appetite for talking about any of

698
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 3: those things and cutting back benefits to the already wealthy

699
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 3: and really building a real safety net. Lots of libertarians

700
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:47,320
Speaker 3: would say like, fine, let's get there. And then again,

701
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:51,360
Speaker 3: if we want to talk about really intense, you know,

702
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 3: minimal government stuff down the line, we can do it,

703
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:57,480
Speaker 3: but we're so far.

704
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:02,359
Speaker 1: No. And that's the I mean, it's sort of like,

705
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:06,600
Speaker 1: while there's glimmers of hope for the movement, when you

706
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:10,360
Speaker 1: look at trade in other ways, right, I mean, the

707
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:14,960
Speaker 1: amount of people who think government should have an act

708
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:18,160
Speaker 1: a more active roles pretty pretty large now because.

709
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:21,040
Speaker 3: It is although you know, you did see most.

710
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:22,719
Speaker 1: Of all of our lives, government's been a big part

711
00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:23,000
Speaker 1: of them.

712
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:25,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, you did see. On the student loan debt question,

713
00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:28,040
Speaker 3: there was some pushback, right and not just from the courts,

714
00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:31,560
Speaker 3: who rightly noted that Biden's plans were all totally unconstitutional.

715
00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:34,520
Speaker 1: I never understood why that, because there was an easy

716
00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:37,120
Speaker 1: way to sell that, which is, if you if they

717
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:39,400
Speaker 1: if you ask people to do something to get the

718
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:42,720
Speaker 1: debt retired, i e. Service to the country in some form,

719
00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:46,439
Speaker 1: six months, here, work there, whatever it is, you'd had

720
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:49,120
Speaker 1: support for it, right like we there is sort of

721
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:52,640
Speaker 1: a the public would have been more supportive of the

722
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:57,239
Speaker 1: student debt relief if there had been something that that

723
00:39:57,680 --> 00:39:59,600
Speaker 1: said student had to get back to the country.

724
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:01,960
Speaker 3: I think that's true, but I also think there were

725
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:05,439
Speaker 3: just a lot of people who said, listen, I didn't

726
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:07,200
Speaker 3: go to college at all because I couldn't afford it,

727
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:09,799
Speaker 3: or I took out some debt and then I paid

728
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:12,839
Speaker 3: it back. And I don't know why we would be

729
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:15,480
Speaker 3: forgiving debt for people who are clearly not the neediest

730
00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:18,200
Speaker 3: or at least twelve off in our country. And so

731
00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:21,520
Speaker 3: I do think that argument has some purchase. But you

732
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:28,760
Speaker 3: are quite right that the political coalition for cutting Medicare

733
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:32,640
Speaker 3: and Medicaid social security, which in the in the late

734
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:35,480
Speaker 3: nineties early oughts, there was like this little moment when

735
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:36,960
Speaker 3: it was like, oh, could we do it? Are we

736
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:39,759
Speaker 3: going to do it? And then absolutely not. We did

737
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:43,080
Speaker 3: not do it. The Tea Party tried again, absolutely not.

738
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:47,680
Speaker 3: So it's an idea that hasn't really risen into any

739
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:49,400
Speaker 3: kind of political reality in a long time.

740
00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:55,319
Speaker 1: Do you hate hangovers, We'll say goodbye to hangovers. Out

741
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:57,839
Speaker 1: of Office gives you the social buzz without the next

742
00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 1: day regret. They're best selling out of Office Got Me

743
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:02,880
Speaker 1: were designed to provide a mild, relaxing buzz boost your

744
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:06,720
Speaker 1: mood and enhance creativity and relaxation. With five different strengths,

745
00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:08,920
Speaker 1: you can tailor the dose to fit your vibe, from

746
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:12,839
Speaker 1: a gentle one point five milligram micro doose to their

747
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:16,839
Speaker 1: newest fifteen milligram gummy for a more elevated experience. Their

748
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:20,719
Speaker 1: THHC beverages and gummies are a modern, mindful alternative to

749
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:23,080
Speaker 1: a glass of wine or a cocktail. And I'll tell

750
00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:26,279
Speaker 1: you this, I've given up booze. I don't like the hangovers.

751
00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:30,120
Speaker 1: I prefer the gummy experience. Soul is a wellness brand

752
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:33,000
Speaker 1: that believes feeling good should be fun and easy. Soul

753
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:37,080
Speaker 1: specializes in delicious hemp derived THHC and CBD products, all

754
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:40,239
Speaker 1: designed to boost your mood and simply help you unwine.

755
00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:42,560
Speaker 1: So if you struggle to switch off at night, Soul

756
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:45,440
Speaker 1: also has a variety of products specifically designed to just

757
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:48,080
Speaker 1: simply help you get a better night's sleep, including their

758
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:51,320
Speaker 1: top selling sleepy gummies. It's a fan favorite for deep,

759
00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:54,399
Speaker 1: restorative sleep. So bring on the good vibes and treat

760
00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:57,880
Speaker 1: yourself to Soul today. Right now, Soul is offering my

761
00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:01,680
Speaker 1: audience thirty percent off your entire so go to getsold

762
00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:05,360
Speaker 1: dot Com use the promo code toodcast. Don't forget that

763
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:09,880
Speaker 1: code that's getsold dot Com promo code toodcast for thirty

764
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:15,400
Speaker 1: percent off. Having good life insurance is incredibly important. I

765
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:18,320
Speaker 1: know from personal experience. I was sixteen when my father

766
00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:21,000
Speaker 1: passed away. We didn't have any money. He didn't leave

767
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:24,840
Speaker 1: us in the best shape. My mother, single mother, now widow.

768
00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:27,480
Speaker 1: Myself sixteen trying to figure out how am I going

769
00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:30,560
Speaker 1: to pay for college and lo and behold, my dad

770
00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:34,000
Speaker 1: had one life insurance policy that we found wasn't a lot,

771
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:37,080
Speaker 1: but it was important at the time, and it's why

772
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:40,440
Speaker 1: I was able to go to college. Little did he

773
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:44,239
Speaker 1: know how important that would be in that moment. Well

774
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:46,480
Speaker 1: guess what. That's why I am here to tell you

775
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:49,400
Speaker 1: about Etho's life. They can provide you with peace of

776
00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:52,880
Speaker 1: mind knowing your family is protected even if the worst

777
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:55,839
Speaker 1: comes to pass. Ethos is an online platform that makes

778
00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:59,480
Speaker 1: getting life insurance fast and easy, all designed to protect

779
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:03,120
Speaker 1: your family's future in minutes, not months. There's no complicated

780
00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:07,040
Speaker 1: process and it's one hundred percent online. There's no medical

781
00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:10,320
Speaker 1: exam require you just answer a few health questions online.

782
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:12,360
Speaker 1: You can get a quote in as little as ten minutes,

783
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:15,480
Speaker 1: and you can get same day coverage without ever leaving

784
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:18,399
Speaker 1: your home. You can get up to three million dollars

785
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:20,640
Speaker 1: in coverage, and some policies start as low as two

786
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:23,839
Speaker 1: dollars a day that would be billed monthly. As of

787
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:27,000
Speaker 1: March twenty twenty five, Business Insider named Ethos the number

788
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:31,360
Speaker 1: one no medical exam instant life insurance provider. So protect

789
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:34,759
Speaker 1: your family with life insurance from Ethos. Get your free

790
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:38,520
Speaker 1: quoted at ethos dot com slash chuck. So again, that's

791
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:43,640
Speaker 1: Ethos dot com slash chuck. Application times may vary and

792
00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:46,400
Speaker 1: the rates themselves may vary as well, but trust me,

793
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:49,200
Speaker 1: life insurance is something you should really think about it,

794
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:55,480
Speaker 1: especially if you've got a growing family. Could you sell

795
00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:57,799
Speaker 1: a libertarian on this thought? Because as I've been look

796
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:03,520
Speaker 1: I'm in an entrepreneurial stage, like a lot of people

797
00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:06,080
Speaker 1: that leave a big company, big corporation after a period

798
00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:08,960
Speaker 1: of time, and I've in the middle of starting a

799
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:12,680
Speaker 1: couple of different small businesses, and the biggest impediment in

800
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:16,840
Speaker 1: trying to get employees or something is the cost of benefits.

801
00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:23,240
Speaker 1: They're just it's Is there a libertarian argument for national

802
00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:23,719
Speaker 1: health care.

803
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:26,960
Speaker 3: Oh no, we're going to go the other way on

804
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:27,640
Speaker 3: that one, my friend.

805
00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:30,400
Speaker 1: All right, but hear me out, which is, it is

806
00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:33,640
Speaker 1: a lot easier to start a small business if I

807
00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:36,680
Speaker 1: don't have to also worry about trying to figure out

808
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:39,360
Speaker 1: how to get a health care plan to pay for

809
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:43,440
Speaker 1: every get every health care, and get some people a

810
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:47,200
Speaker 1: childcare benefit. If the government took both of those things

811
00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:50,719
Speaker 1: off my plate, I'd have an easier time starting up

812
00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:51,560
Speaker 1: a business.

813
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:55,200
Speaker 3: So I have good news for you. Uh, the government

814
00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:58,440
Speaker 3: put both of those things on your plate, and it

815
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:02,600
Speaker 3: could take them off by changing some of our underlying

816
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:06,200
Speaker 3: tax and legal requirements. So I'm sure you know this.

817
00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:11,120
Speaker 3: The fact that employers provide healthcare insurance as a matter

818
00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:13,719
Speaker 3: of course in the United States is entirely an artifact

819
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:19,319
Speaker 3: of the post World War two kind of leftover price

820
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:25,080
Speaker 3: controls and kind of regularly regulatory controls around conversation increases,

821
00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:28,200
Speaker 3: so there were caps and how much you could pay people.

822
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:30,879
Speaker 3: Employers wanted to attract good employees. They realized they could

823
00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:34,120
Speaker 3: offer these benefits and they didn't count against those caps.

824
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:39,600
Speaker 3: So the tax benefit that accrues to you if you

825
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:44,240
Speaker 3: provide these benefits is kind of an extra little cherry.

826
00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:47,879
Speaker 3: We could undo that whole system, and we could have

827
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:50,920
Speaker 3: a provision of healthcare that is done like we provide

828
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:55,440
Speaker 3: all kinds of other absolutely necessary to life goods, which

829
00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:58,279
Speaker 3: is in the private market. So I agree it's a

830
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:00,200
Speaker 3: huge cost to people who want to start a business

831
00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:02,520
Speaker 3: to have to figure out how to provide these services.

832
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:06,000
Speaker 3: But you know, you don't have to provide food to

833
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:09,640
Speaker 3: your employees, right, even though that's totally they have to

834
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:10,680
Speaker 3: have food to live and work.

835
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:12,400
Speaker 1: That's the best thing, right in theory.

836
00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:16,920
Speaker 3: So the kind of libertarianism one oh one argument is

837
00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:18,760
Speaker 3: there is no reason why we can't have a market

838
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:21,359
Speaker 3: in healthcare and or a market in health insurance, which

839
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:25,239
Speaker 3: of course are two different things. And similarly, you know,

840
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:29,560
Speaker 3: childcare is you know, absolutely choked with regulation right now

841
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:33,800
Speaker 3: get and that's getting worse. We're actually more aggressively regulating

842
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:36,799
Speaker 3: childcare providers than we ever have in the past, and

843
00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:41,000
Speaker 3: it's creating a totally unsurprising set of shortages and price increases.

844
00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:44,279
Speaker 3: So I think these are places where, of course you're

845
00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:48,120
Speaker 3: right that those are barriers to entrepreneurship, but it's not

846
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:50,399
Speaker 3: it's the solution, isn't What if the government just gave

847
00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:51,120
Speaker 3: everyone every no.

848
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:53,040
Speaker 1: And I hear you this is one of those where

849
00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:56,600
Speaker 1: you're like, well, boy, I'd love to rewind the tape

850
00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:58,399
Speaker 1: seventy years, but that's tough to do.

851
00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:03,760
Speaker 3: I mean, I think there's there are First of all,

852
00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:06,440
Speaker 3: I am close personal friends with plenty of wonks that

853
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:08,360
Speaker 3: would be happy to sit here and talk for forty

854
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:10,800
Speaker 3: five minutes about exactly how we could do this stuff.

855
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:13,160
Speaker 3: You've been at parties with those guys and they are fun.

856
00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:16,600
Speaker 3: But you know, I do think there are ways to

857
00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:19,040
Speaker 3: unwind it, and we've tried over the years. In some

858
00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:23,400
Speaker 3: perverse ways. Obamacare contained the seeds of some of that.

859
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:26,160
Speaker 1: No, it did. I mean, it was trying to take

860
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:28,160
Speaker 1: I mean, the fact is there are people that stay

861
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:31,920
Speaker 1: in jobs simply because they can't afford healthcare. I mean,

862
00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:37,120
Speaker 1: you know it is, you know. I it was interesting

863
00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:40,440
Speaker 1: to experience what is clearly a fraudulent market. And I'll

864
00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:42,880
Speaker 1: tell you what that fraudulent market is here in a second.

865
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:47,239
Speaker 1: When I was in the midst of changing insurance providers

866
00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:50,279
Speaker 1: and there was a there was tech. I thought I

867
00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:52,040
Speaker 1: followed all the rules so that there'd be no gap,

868
00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:54,080
Speaker 1: but there was a one day gap and thanks to

869
00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:56,799
Speaker 1: the friendly pharmacy benefit managers. They say, well, we only

870
00:47:56,840 --> 00:47:59,239
Speaker 1: update our files once a week, and you're like, oh great.

871
00:47:59,239 --> 00:48:01,799
Speaker 1: So I basically had a week where I couldn't get

872
00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:07,440
Speaker 1: the prescriptions covered by insurance until this paper the computer

873
00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:10,520
Speaker 1: caught up, and if I wanted to get the prescription

874
00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:13,520
Speaker 1: in that moment, and I'd have gotten reimbursed instead of

875
00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:16,000
Speaker 1: costing thirty dollars, it was going to cost six hundred

876
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:21,200
Speaker 1: and fifty dollars. And you're sitting there going six hundred

877
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:23,359
Speaker 1: and fifty dollars. But if I have this insurance, it's

878
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:26,360
Speaker 1: thirty dollars. What am I missing here? Right? This is

879
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:31,720
Speaker 1: something where neither price is accurate and these prices are phony,

880
00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:35,200
Speaker 1: and yet this is the system we are. So it's like, well, geez,

881
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:37,640
Speaker 1: I got to have this benefits. But you're like, I

882
00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:41,359
Speaker 1: have a feeling if everybody were staring at a six

883
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:45,120
Speaker 1: hundred dollars cost, by the way, for blood pressure medication,

884
00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:47,960
Speaker 1: this is like mainstream medication. I wasn't talking about some

885
00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:51,400
Speaker 1: boutique cancer drug or even a nozepic. I mean just

886
00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:54,280
Speaker 1: your basic sort of you know, to keep your blood

887
00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:59,719
Speaker 1: pressure in check. And it was this false essentially, you know,

888
00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:02,719
Speaker 1: it's either thirty dollars or it's six hundred dollars. You're like,

889
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:06,880
Speaker 1: it's something's missing here. The market's not involved.

890
00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:10,279
Speaker 3: Well, and I think the phrase like phony prices, like

891
00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:14,000
Speaker 3: these fake prices, that's that is the key actually to

892
00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:17,360
Speaker 3: almost all of the dysfunction in the way that healthcare

893
00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:22,160
Speaker 3: is provided in this country. Because we no one can

894
00:49:22,239 --> 00:49:26,200
Speaker 3: see prices anywhere in the system. Prices are very very

895
00:49:26,239 --> 00:49:29,600
Speaker 3: invisible to all parties. So the doctor actually doesn't know

896
00:49:29,640 --> 00:49:31,880
Speaker 3: how much you're getting charged. You don't know how much

897
00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:34,680
Speaker 3: you're getting charged. And the insurance company on some level

898
00:49:34,719 --> 00:49:36,840
Speaker 3: has this information, but they of course are also taking

899
00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:40,759
Speaker 3: their cues from the government set prices that come out

900
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:43,640
Speaker 3: of a I was going to be cret they come

901
00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:47,080
Speaker 3: out of someone's head in a in a government office.

902
00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:51,080
Speaker 1: I know where you're going. Yeah, and and people have

903
00:49:51,120 --> 00:49:52,120
Speaker 1: their head up there as well.

904
00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:55,200
Speaker 3: But yes, and all of the prices are fake. And

905
00:49:57,080 --> 00:49:59,319
Speaker 3: I think one of the most important, like if you

906
00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:01,000
Speaker 3: were to ask me one of the what is one

907
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:06,040
Speaker 3: of the core insights that has shaped your personal political philosophy,

908
00:50:06,080 --> 00:50:10,799
Speaker 3: it's that prices contain information and we are being you know,

909
00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:13,880
Speaker 3: totally deprived of that information.

910
00:50:14,239 --> 00:50:16,920
Speaker 1: In the healthcare well, that's where we're being gas lit sector.

911
00:50:17,120 --> 00:50:20,080
Speaker 3: Right, and we're being lied to. We're being given sort

912
00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:23,560
Speaker 3: of seemingly true information, none of which is really true.

913
00:50:23,560 --> 00:50:25,520
Speaker 3: And so of course we all think we're losing our minds.

914
00:50:26,520 --> 00:50:30,480
Speaker 3: So I think again, it's we don't have to stretch

915
00:50:30,520 --> 00:50:33,480
Speaker 3: that hard to imagine a world where we know the

916
00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:35,640
Speaker 3: prices of things and then make decisions about how to

917
00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:39,879
Speaker 3: consume them based on those prices. That's all the other

918
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:42,040
Speaker 3: market like, that's what I do when I think about

919
00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:45,520
Speaker 3: whether I'm gonna buy books or food or even dental care,

920
00:50:45,560 --> 00:50:47,920
Speaker 3: where we at least can sort of see those prices, right,

921
00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:50,399
Speaker 3: I mean, that market has its flaws, but is much

922
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:53,759
Speaker 3: more efficient. And of course people are going to say, well,

923
00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:56,239
Speaker 3: what about people who can't afford it? And that's what

924
00:50:56,280 --> 00:50:58,719
Speaker 3: a safety net might look like. Is for the for

925
00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:01,400
Speaker 3: the people who really can't for their blood pushure medicine.

926
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:02,319
Speaker 1: What do we do?

927
00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:04,279
Speaker 3: And we have as a society also a lot of

928
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:04,960
Speaker 3: answers to that.

929
00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:09,840
Speaker 1: Well, let me get you one area where to go

930
00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:15,479
Speaker 1: back to Obamacare, which actually was creating where some would argue,

931
00:51:15,520 --> 00:51:17,920
Speaker 1: this is why the market is it's just harder to

932
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:23,640
Speaker 1: make it competitive. Is if you if you tell an

933
00:51:23,680 --> 00:51:28,680
Speaker 1: insurance company that cannot use a pre exit, they cannot

934
00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:35,280
Speaker 1: use a pre existing condition to price your insurance policy,

935
00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:42,480
Speaker 1: and that this you know. I well instead of me

936
00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:45,920
Speaker 1: saying where's their tension in the libertarian movement, to me,

937
00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:48,560
Speaker 1: this is right there right Like you are who you are?

938
00:51:49,080 --> 00:51:51,759
Speaker 1: Should you because of just how you were born, you

939
00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:54,719
Speaker 1: were born with something, you automatically get charged more for

940
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:57,840
Speaker 1: something versus if you weren't born without it. You don't

941
00:51:57,960 --> 00:51:59,880
Speaker 1: like that seems unfair?

942
00:52:00,719 --> 00:52:02,479
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I think there are a couple of things

943
00:52:02,680 --> 00:52:07,280
Speaker 3: going on there. One is, you know, we do allow

944
00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:10,880
Speaker 3: that in other markets. So just for example auto insurance,

945
00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:16,200
Speaker 3: auto insurance rates are set to reflect a lot of

946
00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:19,680
Speaker 3: things about you, including your demographics, including where you live

947
00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:22,320
Speaker 3: and your driving behavior.

948
00:52:22,840 --> 00:52:26,279
Speaker 1: That's still behavioral, It is behavioral.

949
00:52:25,719 --> 00:52:29,040
Speaker 3: But behavioral is often closely connected to demographics, right, like

950
00:52:29,120 --> 00:52:31,320
Speaker 3: men pay more for car insurance and women, for example,

951
00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:34,759
Speaker 3: across the board. So I think that there's not as

952
00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:38,400
Speaker 3: much daylight between the way that auto insurance functions and

953
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:40,479
Speaker 3: the way that health insurance could function as some people

954
00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:46,640
Speaker 3: would like to suggest. But also I think you know,

955
00:52:46,719 --> 00:52:51,759
Speaker 3: we live in a time of incredibly complex and interesting

956
00:52:51,880 --> 00:52:56,719
Speaker 3: financial instruments to deal with risk, and none of those

957
00:52:56,760 --> 00:53:03,560
Speaker 3: instruments have been allowed to blossom do experiments exaction.

958
00:53:03,360 --> 00:53:06,000
Speaker 1: That you might do that on a pre in order

959
00:53:06,040 --> 00:53:10,160
Speaker 1: to mitigate the high price of covering somebody with a

960
00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:11,200
Speaker 1: pre existing condition.

961
00:53:11,960 --> 00:53:14,840
Speaker 3: Right, So, I mean, I think at the very very baseline,

962
00:53:14,880 --> 00:53:18,880
Speaker 3: we have the fact that you know, what we used

963
00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:21,359
Speaker 3: to call catastrophic plans are more or less illegal now

964
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:23,080
Speaker 3: it's not quite true. There's a bunch of.

965
00:53:23,280 --> 00:53:27,000
Speaker 1: Short term time. My wife loves that her parents are

966
00:53:27,040 --> 00:53:31,560
Speaker 1: both deceased died of can't had cancer policies, which is

967
00:53:31,719 --> 00:53:34,239
Speaker 1: no longer right, They just they bought them early, and

968
00:53:34,640 --> 00:53:37,000
Speaker 1: thank goodness, it saved their family a bunch of money.

969
00:53:37,400 --> 00:53:40,160
Speaker 1: But you can't buy a cancer policy anymore. Right.

970
00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:45,080
Speaker 3: So that's one example of just you know, there are

971
00:53:45,080 --> 00:53:47,319
Speaker 3: all you know, long term care insurance functions this way

972
00:53:47,360 --> 00:53:50,240
Speaker 3: as well, the younger you buy life insurance functions this way.

973
00:53:51,040 --> 00:53:55,440
Speaker 3: There are so many tools you can imagine where people could,

974
00:53:56,880 --> 00:53:59,920
Speaker 3: in anticipation of various risks that they might that they

975
00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:04,239
Speaker 3: I have get insurance against those risks that are the

976
00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:07,719
Speaker 3: prices will still reflect the relative risk, but you can

977
00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:10,680
Speaker 3: build a policy where the risk reward works for both

978
00:54:10,719 --> 00:54:13,600
Speaker 3: the insurance company and the consumer. And I think the

979
00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:16,160
Speaker 3: fact that we are asking health insurance to also be

980
00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:20,760
Speaker 3: basically a pre pay system for basic health care further

981
00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:23,200
Speaker 3: complicates things. Right, there's no reason why you and I

982
00:54:23,200 --> 00:54:26,840
Speaker 3: shouldn't just be paying out of pocket for basic health care.

983
00:54:27,280 --> 00:54:28,920
Speaker 3: You know, you get in your infection, you should go

984
00:54:28,960 --> 00:54:31,319
Speaker 3: to the doctor and pay the full price of that

985
00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:33,960
Speaker 3: visit and call it good. And your insurance company shouldn't

986
00:54:33,960 --> 00:54:34,839
Speaker 3: be involved in all that stuff.

987
00:54:34,920 --> 00:54:38,279
Speaker 1: But you're describing as homeowner's insurance, right, insurances?

988
00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:38,680
Speaker 2: Right?

989
00:54:38,880 --> 00:54:40,440
Speaker 3: So I think, like just the fact that in this

990
00:54:40,480 --> 00:54:43,600
Speaker 3: conversation you and I have just named like forty different

991
00:54:43,680 --> 00:54:45,800
Speaker 3: kinds of insurance, and they all are different shapes and

992
00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:47,799
Speaker 3: they're all different sizes, there's just no reason to think

993
00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:48,919
Speaker 3: we can't do that with health.

994
00:54:49,120 --> 00:54:51,080
Speaker 1: I guess I go back on health. The problem is

995
00:54:51,080 --> 00:54:53,400
Speaker 1: that there's some people who are risks simply because they

996
00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:56,640
Speaker 1: were born. And that does feel like if you're born

997
00:54:56,680 --> 00:55:01,480
Speaker 1: with inalienable rights, right, you know that where every every

998
00:55:01,520 --> 00:55:04,840
Speaker 1: other type of insurance we've talked about is somewhat behavioral triggered.

999
00:55:05,320 --> 00:55:07,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, so, and I think, you know, there are certainly

1000
00:55:07,680 --> 00:55:11,360
Speaker 3: people who are just born with disabilities or with extremely

1001
00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:14,680
Speaker 3: high risk for certain you know, traits or conditions, and

1002
00:55:14,680 --> 00:55:18,600
Speaker 3: they're gonna they're gonna be really hard to ensure. I

1003
00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:20,520
Speaker 3: think I can give you the science fiction answer and

1004
00:55:20,560 --> 00:55:22,080
Speaker 3: I can give you the real life answer. So the

1005
00:55:22,120 --> 00:55:26,560
Speaker 3: science fiction answer is, let's say I'm a carrier for

1006
00:55:26,600 --> 00:55:29,920
Speaker 3: a genetic illness. I should be able to buy insurance

1007
00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:33,560
Speaker 3: for my unborn children before they're born, when it's only

1008
00:55:33,560 --> 00:55:35,560
Speaker 3: a one and four odd that they'll have it, maybe

1009
00:55:35,719 --> 00:55:38,279
Speaker 3: instead of when they're already born. I don't know, I'm

1010
00:55:38,360 --> 00:55:42,200
Speaker 3: just making it up, but like insurance could be more

1011
00:55:42,320 --> 00:55:45,359
Speaker 3: complex and more and take into account even more of

1012
00:55:45,400 --> 00:55:48,560
Speaker 3: the probabilities of life if you could, if the market

1013
00:55:48,600 --> 00:55:50,960
Speaker 3: were truly open, I would bet you know, if I

1014
00:55:51,000 --> 00:55:53,120
Speaker 3: was a betting man, I might say, Okay, you're a

1015
00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:55,200
Speaker 3: carrier of disease. You're gonna do various things to mitigate

1016
00:55:55,200 --> 00:55:57,200
Speaker 3: your risk, but ILL sure, I'll take an insurance policy

1017
00:55:57,200 --> 00:55:59,759
Speaker 3: out on your kid. On the flip side, I also

1018
00:55:59,800 --> 00:56:03,080
Speaker 3: think like this is again the role for charity or

1019
00:56:03,120 --> 00:56:09,399
Speaker 3: even potentially government subsidies if we can meaningfully circumscribe those

1020
00:56:09,480 --> 00:56:13,080
Speaker 3: people who you are talking about, Those people who truly,

1021
00:56:13,200 --> 00:56:16,799
Speaker 3: through you know, extreme circumstances and no fault to their own,

1022
00:56:16,840 --> 00:56:20,280
Speaker 3: simply are not eligible to be too participants in this market. Okay,

1023
00:56:20,719 --> 00:56:25,200
Speaker 3: charity exists, and you know, simple kind of straightforward block

1024
00:56:25,200 --> 00:56:29,400
Speaker 3: grants or cash shubsanies do exist. I think most libertarians

1025
00:56:29,400 --> 00:56:32,279
Speaker 3: and most pro market types would say there's space for

1026
00:56:32,360 --> 00:56:36,080
Speaker 3: that in the world. There's no reason though, because of

1027
00:56:36,120 --> 00:56:39,840
Speaker 3: those people who we do want to protect that you

1028
00:56:39,920 --> 00:56:42,359
Speaker 3: and I should be part of any of this system,

1029
00:56:42,680 --> 00:56:45,839
Speaker 3: like us, participating in this system to somehow protect those

1030
00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:48,800
Speaker 3: people is not working. Those people are not well protected,

1031
00:56:49,520 --> 00:56:50,840
Speaker 3: and it's making us miserable.

1032
00:56:53,080 --> 00:56:55,759
Speaker 1: Well, look, I guess there's a part of me that

1033
00:56:55,760 --> 00:56:59,640
Speaker 1: thinks that, you know, you could get a directionally libertarian

1034
00:56:59,680 --> 00:57:02,799
Speaker 1: person to represent eighty percent of what you believe in

1035
00:57:02,880 --> 00:57:05,520
Speaker 1: like and then telling you I ain't touching ain't touch

1036
00:57:05,520 --> 00:57:08,400
Speaker 1: in healthcare. That's a different situation there.

1037
00:57:08,520 --> 00:57:10,000
Speaker 3: And there are a bunch of people who identify as

1038
00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:12,600
Speaker 3: libertarians who would probably say that, And you know what,

1039
00:57:12,960 --> 00:57:15,280
Speaker 3: I welcome them. They're welcome to use the word liberty.

1040
00:57:15,360 --> 00:57:17,640
Speaker 1: What you're saying is that your your eighty percent friend

1041
00:57:17,680 --> 00:57:18,920
Speaker 1: is not your one hundred percent enemy.

1042
00:57:19,440 --> 00:57:24,760
Speaker 3: It's so true, and that like tattoo it on our foreheads, man, like.

1043
00:57:25,960 --> 00:57:28,640
Speaker 1: That needs to be the problem. You know, the Bill

1044
00:57:28,680 --> 00:57:33,120
Speaker 1: of Rights was a compromise, and so is everything else. Right,

1045
00:57:33,800 --> 00:57:35,360
Speaker 1: let me get you out of here on this. The

1046
00:57:35,400 --> 00:57:39,600
Speaker 1: prediction markets, which is the ultimate in some ways, right,

1047
00:57:40,200 --> 00:57:43,600
Speaker 1: maybe this is the you know, a good way for

1048
00:57:43,680 --> 00:57:47,600
Speaker 1: some of these bedheadging and sort of libertarian basically to

1049
00:57:47,720 --> 00:57:52,760
Speaker 1: play out some libertarian policy ideas. But prediction markets need

1050
00:57:52,880 --> 00:57:55,480
Speaker 1: to be trusted, right, and you need to know they're

1051
00:57:55,520 --> 00:57:57,560
Speaker 1: not being gained or if they're going to be gained,

1052
00:57:58,040 --> 00:58:01,520
Speaker 1: that the bad actors are caught. That takes some regulation,

1053
00:58:02,280 --> 00:58:05,000
Speaker 1: like this is not a market that self regulates, and

1054
00:58:05,200 --> 00:58:09,680
Speaker 1: I don't think yet maybe it will. I just you know,

1055
00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:13,640
Speaker 1: right now, it feels my concern of the prediction markets

1056
00:58:13,640 --> 00:58:15,760
Speaker 1: are for the things where you know somebody has the

1057
00:58:15,800 --> 00:58:18,840
Speaker 1: answer and if it leaks at like you know, the

1058
00:58:18,880 --> 00:58:21,840
Speaker 1: Nobel Peace Prize is the perfect was the perfect example

1059
00:58:21,840 --> 00:58:25,160
Speaker 1: of that or what I know took place. I'm like

1060
00:58:25,320 --> 00:58:28,960
Speaker 1: ninety percent confident took place when Peter Navarro gained the

1061
00:58:29,040 --> 00:58:31,840
Speaker 1: jobs report and then suddenly it was the exact opposite

1062
00:58:31,840 --> 00:58:33,640
Speaker 1: of what he said twenty four hours later, and you're like,

1063
00:58:34,360 --> 00:58:38,840
Speaker 1: somebody made a bunch of money on cal she and

1064
00:58:39,320 --> 00:58:43,920
Speaker 1: so give me how a libertarian would clean up the

1065
00:58:43,920 --> 00:58:44,800
Speaker 1: prediction markets.

1066
00:58:46,800 --> 00:58:50,479
Speaker 3: So I think there's a couple things. Many many years ago,

1067
00:58:50,640 --> 00:58:54,920
Speaker 3: Reason magazine did a cover story with Martha Stewart on it,

1068
00:58:55,200 --> 00:58:58,200
Speaker 3: and the cover line was something like, Saint Martha. You

1069
00:58:58,240 --> 00:59:01,800
Speaker 3: know she didn't do anything wrong. And while Martha Stewart's

1070
00:59:01,840 --> 00:59:06,640
Speaker 3: story is complicated, the piece was basically a defensive insider trading.

1071
00:59:07,040 --> 00:59:12,360
Speaker 3: So the I think the the kind of most entertaining

1072
00:59:12,440 --> 00:59:15,919
Speaker 3: or most colorful case I can give you is all

1073
00:59:15,960 --> 00:59:19,640
Speaker 3: markets have insiders, they just have smarter and stupider insiders.

1074
00:59:20,360 --> 00:59:26,280
Speaker 3: And in fact that a market that incentivizes as many

1075
00:59:26,320 --> 00:59:29,320
Speaker 3: insiders as possible to contribute is the most accurate market.

1076
00:59:29,680 --> 00:59:31,880
Speaker 3: Now that's like a little tendentist. It's got a bunch

1077
00:59:31,920 --> 00:59:33,440
Speaker 3: of you know, I understand why that's not going to

1078
00:59:33,480 --> 00:59:37,400
Speaker 3: like it's impect to find the cruct right and in fact,

1079
00:59:37,480 --> 00:59:41,160
Speaker 3: like in a market where you have the understanding that

1080
00:59:41,240 --> 00:59:44,600
Speaker 3: this type of thing is occurring, you know, a little

1081
00:59:44,600 --> 00:59:46,960
Speaker 3: spike here looks different, a little fall here looks different.

1082
00:59:47,000 --> 00:59:50,640
Speaker 3: If you understand, like, is that little spike Peter tomorrow

1083
00:59:51,000 --> 00:59:52,960
Speaker 3: is like a question you could be asking yourself or

1084
00:59:53,000 --> 00:59:57,320
Speaker 3: his friends or his family whoever. I think we do

1085
00:59:57,400 --> 01:00:00,240
Speaker 3: already have an intuitive understanding that smaller market sort of

1086
01:00:00,280 --> 01:00:04,280
Speaker 3: much or more subject to gaming. Right, So the fewer

1087
01:00:04,320 --> 01:00:07,000
Speaker 3: participants in the market, the less the less resilient it

1088
01:00:07,000 --> 01:00:11,320
Speaker 3: will be, and the less likely we are too, you know,

1089
01:00:11,640 --> 01:00:15,280
Speaker 3: to uh to catch kind of anomalies before someone someone

1090
01:00:15,360 --> 01:00:21,360
Speaker 3: profits on them. You know, I think almost all libertarians,

1091
01:00:21,440 --> 01:00:26,000
Speaker 3: myself included, would say fraud is something one of the

1092
01:00:26,120 --> 01:00:28,920
Speaker 3: very few things that we agree the state should prevent.

1093
01:00:29,240 --> 01:00:33,200
Speaker 3: And so I think so often in cases where you know,

1094
01:00:33,240 --> 01:00:36,840
Speaker 3: what we see are kind of you know, inappropriate behavior

1095
01:00:36,840 --> 01:00:38,800
Speaker 3: in those type of markets, it's a violation of the

1096
01:00:38,880 --> 01:00:42,080
Speaker 3: terms of service, or someone has misrepresented themselves, or there

1097
01:00:42,160 --> 01:00:46,200
Speaker 3: is in fact fraud occurring, and fraud should be illegal.

1098
01:00:46,640 --> 01:00:48,640
Speaker 3: So I do also think there is there is a

1099
01:00:48,680 --> 01:00:50,440
Speaker 3: case for, like, some of this is going to be

1100
01:00:50,480 --> 01:00:53,800
Speaker 3: worked out through the courts, through torts, through kind of

1101
01:00:54,520 --> 01:00:56,240
Speaker 3: it's going to take a while, and you're right that,

1102
01:00:57,200 --> 01:00:59,440
Speaker 3: you know, many people are impatient for that process to

1103
01:00:59,480 --> 01:01:02,560
Speaker 3: play out, and as in so many cases, people often

1104
01:01:02,640 --> 01:01:06,840
Speaker 3: want a short circuit kind of evolutionary processes. With regulation,

1105
01:01:07,240 --> 01:01:08,720
Speaker 3: we already know what the rules should be. Let's just

1106
01:01:08,720 --> 01:01:12,280
Speaker 3: make them and announce them. That goes wrong so often,

1107
01:01:12,320 --> 01:01:15,000
Speaker 3: and I think, especially with fledgling markets that can have

1108
01:01:15,080 --> 01:01:17,840
Speaker 3: so much power to be useful tools, I'm hesitant to

1109
01:01:17,840 --> 01:01:19,800
Speaker 3: just slap a regulation on it and say good now,

1110
01:01:19,840 --> 01:01:20,760
Speaker 3: this market is stable.

1111
01:01:21,360 --> 01:01:25,080
Speaker 1: No, I mean, I've look I I look at the

1112
01:01:25,880 --> 01:01:29,520
Speaker 1: first of all, I don't understand why we call Calshie

1113
01:01:29,520 --> 01:01:33,240
Speaker 1: a prediction market, but FanDuel of sportsbook it's also a

1114
01:01:33,240 --> 01:01:34,000
Speaker 1: prediction market.

1115
01:01:34,040 --> 01:01:34,960
Speaker 3: But that's indeed it is.

1116
01:01:35,680 --> 01:01:38,320
Speaker 1: I don't think there is a difference between the two, which,

1117
01:01:38,360 --> 01:01:43,960
Speaker 1: of course, but everybody's trying to have one. But I

1118
01:01:43,960 --> 01:01:50,160
Speaker 1: I have I think that the look by adding more

1119
01:01:50,200 --> 01:01:52,480
Speaker 1: people to the system, we have found out who the

1120
01:01:52,520 --> 01:01:55,800
Speaker 1: people are that are cheating on the individual sports right

1121
01:01:56,160 --> 01:02:00,200
Speaker 1: the you know Who's Now the question is whether and

1122
01:02:00,240 --> 01:02:03,280
Speaker 1: I think that this will be a market. This should

1123
01:02:03,320 --> 01:02:07,080
Speaker 1: be the If I were FanDuel, I might not want

1124
01:02:07,120 --> 01:02:10,920
Speaker 1: to do player props because they can get gained, because

1125
01:02:10,960 --> 01:02:14,440
Speaker 1: they can get manipulated, and so to me, instead of

1126
01:02:14,480 --> 01:02:17,200
Speaker 1: being told to not do them, you know, you just

1127
01:02:17,240 --> 01:02:19,800
Speaker 1: would have you know, you're going to have better you're

1128
01:02:19,840 --> 01:02:21,800
Speaker 1: going to be more trusted if you don't offer.

1129
01:02:21,600 --> 01:02:26,040
Speaker 3: Them reputational mechanisms, right right, yeah, yeah, And I think

1130
01:02:26,040 --> 01:02:28,240
Speaker 3: people you want people to trust your brand, and you

1131
01:02:28,280 --> 01:02:33,240
Speaker 3: know this is you know previously in trade had you

1132
01:02:33,280 --> 01:02:35,960
Speaker 3: know a lot of these same questions and controversies around it.

1133
01:02:37,880 --> 01:02:44,560
Speaker 3: And I think you know, easily gameable markets or bets

1134
01:02:45,440 --> 01:02:47,600
Speaker 3: or hurt your reputation as a company. And it doesn't

1135
01:02:47,600 --> 01:02:49,880
Speaker 3: happen instantly. People are going to lose money. People are

1136
01:02:49,880 --> 01:02:52,720
Speaker 3: going to make money for sure. So if your goal

1137
01:02:52,960 --> 01:02:58,400
Speaker 3: is that can't happen even once you know you're going

1138
01:02:58,440 --> 01:03:02,320
Speaker 3: to have a very heavy regulatory But I think I

1139
01:03:02,360 --> 01:03:05,240
Speaker 3: think that's not the way if we want again, you know,

1140
01:03:05,280 --> 01:03:08,160
Speaker 3: libertarians were very early and kind of pro market types

1141
01:03:08,160 --> 01:03:12,120
Speaker 3: in general. We're very early in saying we are underutilizing

1142
01:03:12,240 --> 01:03:17,520
Speaker 3: prediction markets in all areas of life, and that's turned

1143
01:03:17,520 --> 01:03:20,360
Speaker 3: out to be true. There are tons of places in

1144
01:03:20,440 --> 01:03:23,840
Speaker 3: life where we are now using what are functionally little

1145
01:03:24,640 --> 01:03:27,880
Speaker 3: micro prediction markets, are betting markets to help us figure

1146
01:03:27,880 --> 01:03:32,520
Speaker 3: out how to do things. And to cut that off

1147
01:03:33,040 --> 01:03:38,000
Speaker 3: because some of the markets are inappropriately structured or gamable,

1148
01:03:38,360 --> 01:03:39,920
Speaker 3: doesn't seem like the right trade off to me.

1149
01:03:42,440 --> 01:03:45,160
Speaker 1: What's the best place to judge whether libertarians are having

1150
01:03:45,160 --> 01:03:47,480
Speaker 1: a moment at the ballot box this year? What are

1151
01:03:47,480 --> 01:03:49,960
Speaker 1: the races that we should be following from a libertarian lens.

1152
01:03:50,280 --> 01:03:53,320
Speaker 3: I don't know. I can't. It might be too sad

1153
01:03:53,360 --> 01:03:55,480
Speaker 3: to even think about this. No, I mean, obviously I

1154
01:03:55,520 --> 01:03:58,360
Speaker 3: would like to see some of the folks that I

1155
01:03:58,480 --> 01:04:01,960
Speaker 3: named in the Times are coal re elected at the

1156
01:04:02,080 --> 01:04:04,440
Speaker 3: very least. You know, we have a pretty short list,

1157
01:04:04,480 --> 01:04:08,320
Speaker 3: but you know, the gentleman from Kentucky I mentioned, Jared

1158
01:04:08,360 --> 01:04:10,760
Speaker 3: paul Is. You're quite right if he's up and down.

1159
01:04:11,040 --> 01:04:14,080
Speaker 1: But the you know, there are.

1160
01:04:15,600 --> 01:04:16,920
Speaker 3: There are some folks that are already on the way

1161
01:04:16,920 --> 01:04:19,320
Speaker 3: out run Widen. You know we've got you know, the

1162
01:04:19,320 --> 01:04:24,880
Speaker 3: the already small numbers are even smaller. Like I say,

1163
01:04:24,960 --> 01:04:28,760
Speaker 3: I'm a little obsessed with Arizona because Arizona does seem

1164
01:04:28,800 --> 01:04:29,600
Speaker 3: to kick out.

1165
01:04:30,200 --> 01:04:32,120
Speaker 1: It's always been a liberty I mean.

1166
01:04:31,960 --> 01:04:35,120
Speaker 3: You knows, I think is what I would say.

1167
01:04:35,360 --> 01:04:37,240
Speaker 1: Like little well, you know it all like for me,

1168
01:04:37,360 --> 01:04:41,400
Speaker 1: my first taste of the crazy of Arizona was was

1169
01:04:41,440 --> 01:04:44,040
Speaker 1: Evan Meekham. I don't know if you know that story

1170
01:04:44,760 --> 01:04:45,480
Speaker 1: as a governor.

1171
01:04:46,000 --> 01:04:47,280
Speaker 3: Tell me the story of Evan Meekham.

1172
01:04:47,480 --> 01:04:49,040
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, he was sort of this whack of

1173
01:04:49,080 --> 01:04:51,000
Speaker 1: doodle governor that got elected in a sort of a

1174
01:04:51,000 --> 01:04:53,680
Speaker 1: weird three way race and they ended up having to

1175
01:04:53,720 --> 01:04:56,520
Speaker 1: impeach him. But the point was that he It was

1176
01:04:56,680 --> 01:04:59,840
Speaker 1: just Arizona has always been home to sort of a

1177
01:05:00,040 --> 01:05:03,840
Speaker 1: lot of different quirky politics and left right and center

1178
01:05:04,440 --> 01:05:06,600
Speaker 1: more on the right, and there's always been these you know,

1179
01:05:06,600 --> 01:05:09,960
Speaker 1: it's almost been a coalition of conservatives with these weird

1180
01:05:10,080 --> 01:05:13,080
Speaker 1: strains to them. You know, there's been if you've had

1181
01:05:13,080 --> 01:05:15,840
Speaker 1: some religious based strains, you've had some sort of libertarian

1182
01:05:15,880 --> 01:05:18,959
Speaker 1: based strains, you've had sort of whatever you would call McCain, right,

1183
01:05:19,080 --> 01:05:22,000
Speaker 1: he was sort of he was his own ideology, right.

1184
01:05:22,040 --> 01:05:24,280
Speaker 3: That was just as I wouldn't dare put a label on.

1185
01:05:24,640 --> 01:05:27,520
Speaker 3: So you can't. I shan't label McCain either, But.

1186
01:05:27,520 --> 01:05:29,920
Speaker 1: I can't either because I can. You know, there's some

1187
01:05:29,960 --> 01:05:31,800
Speaker 1: things he was a libertarian on. There were some things

1188
01:05:31,840 --> 01:05:33,640
Speaker 1: he was you know, pro governing, you know what I mean.

1189
01:05:33,720 --> 01:05:36,920
Speaker 1: So it on American national security, he couldn't have been

1190
01:05:36,960 --> 01:05:41,440
Speaker 1: less libertarian, right, So, but I think on domestic policy

1191
01:05:41,480 --> 01:05:43,040
Speaker 1: he would have been very at home.

1192
01:05:44,240 --> 01:05:47,800
Speaker 3: With I would say, my my, this is not my nit.

1193
01:05:49,480 --> 01:05:52,560
Speaker 3: Think it's the level answer, but as a macro answer,

1194
01:05:53,480 --> 01:05:56,280
Speaker 3: if it's gonna if a new kind of libertarianism that

1195
01:05:56,360 --> 01:05:59,880
Speaker 3: could be electoral electorally successful is going to come from anywhere,

1196
01:06:00,520 --> 01:06:02,440
Speaker 3: it kind of seems like it has to come out

1197
01:06:02,440 --> 01:06:05,400
Speaker 3: of whatever has been thrown. And you know, your Gerson cinemas,

1198
01:06:05,480 --> 01:06:06,640
Speaker 3: You're like, there's a bunch of.

1199
01:06:07,280 --> 01:06:09,240
Speaker 1: The West is just filled with them West.

1200
01:06:09,280 --> 01:06:12,479
Speaker 3: I feel like, yeah, I am interested in and keeping

1201
01:06:12,520 --> 01:06:15,200
Speaker 3: an eye on, but I wouldn't I'm not sure i'd

1202
01:06:15,200 --> 01:06:17,080
Speaker 3: go so far as to use the word optimism.

1203
01:06:17,240 --> 01:06:19,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, I look at a guy like Dave Schweikert and

1204
01:06:19,760 --> 01:06:23,920
Speaker 1: Mark Kelly right from Arizona who both sort of aren't

1205
01:06:24,280 --> 01:06:31,000
Speaker 1: conventional trumpy or conventional liberal who you know, and maybe,

1206
01:06:31,040 --> 01:06:33,880
Speaker 1: but you're not wrong to look at Arizona. That feels

1207
01:06:33,920 --> 01:06:39,160
Speaker 1: like an interesting laboratory. I don't know what else to do.

1208
01:06:39,480 --> 01:06:41,240
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I think it's because the sun

1209
01:06:41,280 --> 01:06:44,280
Speaker 1: fries people's brains there differently than it fries our brains.

1210
01:06:44,320 --> 01:06:46,360
Speaker 3: To a delicious crisp, if you know what I mean.

1211
01:06:48,880 --> 01:06:50,960
Speaker 1: I think I do. I think I think the biggest

1212
01:06:51,000 --> 01:06:54,560
Speaker 1: cryogenic labs are storage units are in Arizona. Right, isn't

1213
01:06:54,560 --> 01:06:56,360
Speaker 1: that where Ted Williams's head is at. I don't know.

1214
01:06:56,480 --> 01:06:59,080
Speaker 3: I think maybe things didn't work out for Ted Williams's

1215
01:06:59,080 --> 01:07:02,400
Speaker 3: head in the end unfortunately. But yes, but that's the

1216
01:07:02,480 --> 01:07:04,000
Speaker 3: kind of thing that you do see out there, and

1217
01:07:04,360 --> 01:07:12,080
Speaker 3: that is it is also kind of adjacent to you know,

1218
01:07:12,360 --> 01:07:15,440
Speaker 3: it's it's the kind of futurism of those type of

1219
01:07:15,520 --> 01:07:18,920
Speaker 3: you know, it is both the sage sagebrush libertarians and

1220
01:07:18,960 --> 01:07:21,400
Speaker 3: the kind of futurest libertarians tend to meet right along

1221
01:07:21,440 --> 01:07:24,840
Speaker 3: that seam and and the folks that just kind of

1222
01:07:24,840 --> 01:07:26,560
Speaker 3: want to be left.

1223
01:07:26,040 --> 01:07:29,160
Speaker 1: At the state the only the only state to defeat

1224
01:07:29,320 --> 01:07:30,840
Speaker 1: a ban on same sex marriage.

1225
01:07:32,560 --> 01:07:33,960
Speaker 3: I don't know, but that sounds true.

1226
01:07:34,160 --> 01:07:36,160
Speaker 1: I think that's right, if I'm not mistaken. The point

1227
01:07:36,200 --> 01:07:40,400
Speaker 1: is is that it it is pretty you know, there

1228
01:07:40,440 --> 01:07:43,080
Speaker 1: is there's some real evidence there that both on economic

1229
01:07:43,120 --> 01:07:45,720
Speaker 1: and social that they've you know, sort of there's been

1230
01:07:45,760 --> 01:07:47,720
Speaker 1: this unit. And that's the beauty of Arizona. If you

1231
01:07:47,800 --> 01:07:50,160
Speaker 1: really if you're really pushing the libertarian movement, is you've

1232
01:07:50,160 --> 01:07:54,360
Speaker 1: got the ballot referendum process to you know, you don't

1233
01:07:54,400 --> 01:07:57,960
Speaker 1: need a candidate to institute some libertarian ideas. Sometimes you

1234
01:07:58,040 --> 01:08:00,440
Speaker 1: just need a referendum at the ballot box.

1235
01:08:00,720 --> 01:08:02,280
Speaker 3: That's true. I'm going out in a couple of weeks,

1236
01:08:02,280 --> 01:08:05,919
Speaker 3: so I'll let you know if I see any little reader.

1237
01:08:05,960 --> 01:08:10,360
Speaker 3: I'll be very working lurking in the in the landscape.

1238
01:08:10,720 --> 01:08:12,800
Speaker 1: Catherine, this is awesome. I mean, look, I think there's

1239
01:08:12,840 --> 01:08:17,480
Speaker 1: a lot of Here's what's true. There's a growing plurality

1240
01:08:17,520 --> 01:08:22,320
Speaker 1: in America. The plurality of Americans are politically homeless. We

1241
01:08:22,439 --> 01:08:26,000
Speaker 1: see it every day. The numbers show it. Right. We're

1242
01:08:26,040 --> 01:08:27,879
Speaker 1: not at a third and a third and a third anymore.

1243
01:08:28,280 --> 01:08:30,760
Speaker 1: The Republicans have less than a third, the Democrats have

1244
01:08:30,840 --> 01:08:33,200
Speaker 1: less than a third. There's a whole bunch of people

1245
01:08:33,240 --> 01:08:36,200
Speaker 1: just sort of sitting there in search of something. So

1246
01:08:39,000 --> 01:08:41,640
Speaker 1: let's see what happens. Right, That's all we can do,

1247
01:08:42,160 --> 01:08:43,840
Speaker 1: all right, Catherine, great to see you.

1248
01:08:43,920 --> 01:08:44,760
Speaker 3: Thanks having me on