Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media.
Speaker 2: Start up nights Joy.
Speaker 3: Time, So.
Speaker 1: Stay Exclaim.
Speaker 3: Sixteen sixteen sixteen, Welcome back to sixteenth Minute, the podcast
Speaker 3: where we take a look at the internet's characters of
Speaker 3: the day to see how their moment affected them and
Speaker 3: what it says about the Internet and us. My name's
Speaker 3: Jamie Loftus and this is part two of a series
Speaker 3: trying to answer a question that I honestly thought would
Speaker 3: be easier to answer, why is the Internet so dominated
Speaker 3: by Mormon mommy influencers? So if you haven't listened to
Speaker 3: part one yet, I recommend you do because this is
Speaker 3: a frustratingly complicated question. Last time we talked about the
Speaker 3: origins of the Mormon Church. It stands on race, gender,
Speaker 3: and sexuality cliff notes not great, and it's history of
Speaker 3: intersecting with conservative leaning social media trends among women. So
Speaker 3: think mommy blogs of the two thousands. Mormon women were
Speaker 3: at the top of that boom and were more open
Speaker 3: about their religion than many influencers are today. Think about
Speaker 3: another ongoing trend that's a whole subject unto itself. When
Speaker 3: I'd like to dedicate more time in the future Mormon
Speaker 3: women's intersection with major multi level marketing schemes, schemes that
Speaker 3: rely on salespeople spending a lot of their own money
Speaker 3: with usually diminishing returns if you don't get in on
Speaker 3: the ground floor. Utah has the highest concentration of MLMs
Speaker 3: in the country, and the door to door element. Isn't
Speaker 3: that unlike the missionary spirit that the devout embark on
Speaker 3: on behalf of the Church of Latter day Saints or
Speaker 3: the LDS when they're young adults, sales as a mission. Actually,
Speaker 3: if you're into obscure documentaries as much as I am.
Speaker 3: One of the most famous contemporary failed MLM schemes was
Speaker 3: actually founded by a Mormon couple, that being Lularo, the
Speaker 3: ugly leggings company that was busted in a massive legal
Speaker 3: scandal in the twenty tens. You tell the people you
Speaker 3: love they're an a Peermid scheme, and they go, no,
Speaker 3: I'm not, You're just a hater. I own my own business.
Speaker 3: I'm very successful.
Speaker 2: My orders would smell disgusted.
Speaker 3: It was just insane, the amount of hoops at jump
Speaker 3: Through to get them to ever admit that their product
Speaker 3: was faulty.
Speaker 2: I would sometimes open bags and they'd be wet.
Speaker 3: And when it comes to recruiting for MLMs, Mormon women
Speaker 3: tend to be excellent marks because of the rigid gender
Speaker 3: roles of the religion that encourage many women to stay
Speaker 3: at home. Things like Lulu ro might be the only
Speaker 3: opportunity for them to make a living on their own,
Speaker 3: not to mention the close knit Mormon communities offering a
Speaker 3: ton of customers. It's not quite that simple, but you
Speaker 3: see where I'm going with this, And of course, there
Speaker 3: is significant crossover with Mormon women and the current, if
Speaker 3: somewhat dwindling, tradwive content that's become extremely popular on Instagram
Speaker 3: and TikTok. We talk about this quite a bit in
Speaker 3: the first part of the series, specifically about users from
Speaker 3: mom Talk, the stars of the new show The Secret
Speaker 3: Lives of Mormon Wives, and Ballerina farm, a ten million
Speaker 3: follower influencer who presents at Homestead Lifestyle while say it
Speaker 3: with me, selling that idea to her followers as a
Speaker 3: part of what is very much a job unto itself.
Speaker 3: The more I think about it, tradwives are actually not
Speaker 3: straying from these similarly flawed girl boss archetypes the way
Speaker 3: that they think they are, but that's for another day,
Speaker 3: because now we're going to forge into part two, shall we?
Speaker 3: Even with the context I've given you, I was still
Speaker 3: confused because, yes, white heteroconservatism sells online, we know that,
Speaker 3: But why this religion, specifically, what about Mormon content is
Speaker 3: bringing them to the top of your feed ex Mormon
Speaker 3: influencer Alyssa Grenfell has been asking this question too. She
Speaker 3: was raised and extremely devout Utah Mormon, went on a mission,
Speaker 3: got married at an LDS temple the whole nine yards. Eventually,
Speaker 3: like one in three young Mormons today, she left the
Speaker 3: church in her twenties with her husband, and after they
Speaker 3: both found themselves questioning the values they'd grown up with.
Speaker 3: For Alissa's husband, the radicalizing issue was the church's stance
Speaker 3: on gay marriage, and for Alissa, it was a series
Speaker 3: of crises of faith. Over and over. What Alyssa felt
Speaker 3: God wanted for her was directly contradicted by priests and
Speaker 3: her father. She was called to do a mission two
Speaker 3: thousand miles away from where she expected. She was told
Speaker 3: by her father that God needed her to be a teacher,
Speaker 3: when she had no interest in teaching and didn't feel
Speaker 3: she had the natural skill set to do it, so
Speaker 3: eventually the two leave the Mormon Church. They start drinking
Speaker 3: coffee and cocktails and Alyssa was motivated to join YouTube
Speaker 3: after self publishing her first book, and while she's been
Speaker 3: on YouTube for less than a year, she already has
Speaker 3: nearly a quarter million subscribers, and my favorite video of
Speaker 3: hers presents a pretty compelling theory. Alyssa suggests that sure,
Speaker 3: Mormon tradwife content does play into the algorithm as far
Speaker 3: as esthetics, but it's very possible at the Church of
Speaker 3: Latter day Saints itself is bankrolling these Mormon mommy influencers
Speaker 3: without the influencers being able to say for sure that
Speaker 3: it's them. Here's a clip from that video.
Speaker 2: So different niches, different types of content on the Internet
Speaker 2: make different amounts of money. You can see you're off
Speaker 2: to the side that depending on the type of content
Speaker 2: you make, you're gonna make different amounts of money. For example,
Speaker 2: anything to do with money and finance makes a lot
Speaker 2: more money than a video about cooking. The reason for
Speaker 2: this is that the money that you make off your
Speaker 2: content is driven by how much advertisers are willing to
Speaker 2: pay for it. Banks, for example, have a lot of
Speaker 2: money and so they can drive a ton of money
Speaker 2: into advertising. So if you made content a video about
Speaker 2: the best bank accounts to open, you could get paid
Speaker 2: approximately twelve dollars and twenty five cents for each one
Speaker 2: thousand views on that video. When Google or an other
Speaker 2: ad platform goes to put ads on top of that content,
Speaker 2: they will recognize it as a piece of content that
Speaker 2: advertisers are willing to pay a lot of money for.
Speaker 2: So the length of the video could be the same,
Speaker 2: the person in the video could be the same, but
Speaker 2: depending on the content, you're getting paid a wildly different
Speaker 2: amount of money for the type of content you're posting.
Speaker 2: A major way that Google and other advertisers figures out
Speaker 2: where to put ads is through something called keywords. So
Speaker 2: these keywords will be something like credit card or open
Speaker 2: bank account that signal to the algorithm, to the ad
Speaker 2: algorithm that you've made content that aligns with what advertisers
Speaker 2: are looking for.
Speaker 3: Alissa only started investigating this search term question when she
Speaker 3: was getting repeated feedback that her viewers were getting ads
Speaker 3: for the Mormon Church on her videos, which is weird
Speaker 3: because Alyssa's content is doing the opposite of encouraging people
Speaker 3: to join the church. And what's more, when she into
Speaker 3: the amount that she was making on YouTube and the
Speaker 3: amount of algorithmic preference she was getting less than a
Speaker 3: year into her time versus other creators, she was getting
Speaker 3: a lot more engagement and making a lot more money.
Speaker 3: Why she explains more in the video.
Speaker 2: You can see here that the keyword new bank costs
Speaker 2: twenty five dollars and thirty cents. That's how much advertisers
Speaker 2: are willing to pay for this keyword. So compare that
Speaker 2: to Catholic. That's a huge difference. So if I'm making
Speaker 2: my content about finance, I'm going to see a lot
Speaker 2: more ad revenue coming my way because there are lots
Speaker 2: of advertisers who are willing to pay Google to try
Speaker 2: to capture your eye to open a new bank account
Speaker 2: with them. The Church definitely does advertising online. And if
Speaker 2: I go to YouTube and type in Mormon missionary, I
Speaker 2: can see that there's an ad at the top. This
Speaker 2: is an ad that the church paid to put there,
Speaker 2: So Mormon missionary. There's an ad in my YouTube trying
Speaker 2: to get me to meet with Mormon missionaries. So we
Speaker 2: already looked at the term Catholic. The cost per click.
Speaker 2: The ad revenue behind Catholic is three dollars and fifty
Speaker 2: eight cents. If you look at the term Baptist, the
Speaker 2: cost per click is a dollar twenty six cents. I
Speaker 2: tried looking up a religion that's a little closer to Mormonism.
Speaker 2: Jehovah's Witness is an American religion. If you want to
Speaker 2: advertise using the key term Jehovah's Witness, it's going to
Speaker 2: cost you four dollars and sixty four cents. The cost
Speaker 2: per click for the term Mormon is twenty four dollars
Speaker 2: and seventy one cents. And if you recall, the Mormon
Speaker 2: Church has more money than Wells Fargo. And the reason
Speaker 2: that that number is so high, I believe is because
Speaker 2: there is a multi billion dollar organization that is funneling
Speaker 2: money into ad spend around the term Mormon.
Speaker 3: So this theory isn't and can't be proven without the
Speaker 3: LDS being straightforward about their finances, which will never happen.
Speaker 2: So I'll let Alyssa take it.
Speaker 3: From here without any further ado. Here is my interview
Speaker 3: with the fantastic Alyssa Grenfell.
Speaker 2: Hi. My name is Elsa Grenfell and I am an
Speaker 2: ex Mormon content creator and author. I was very Mormon
Speaker 2: growing up. I grew up in a varianted about home,
Speaker 2: and then I left the church when I was about
Speaker 2: twenty three, after serving a Mormon mission and getting married
Speaker 2: in a Mormon temple and doing all the Mormon things.
Speaker 2: And now I make content around what you know, the
Speaker 2: history of the churches, current church teachings, the doctrine, personal experiences,
Speaker 2: and that is kind of the focus of what I
Speaker 2: put on the Internet.
Speaker 3: I grew up in Massachusetts. I grew up like like,
Speaker 3: I didn't know anything about Mormon culture outside of what
Speaker 3: was in pop culture when I was growing up growing
Speaker 3: up in the Mormon Church. I know that you've made
Speaker 3: a significant amount of content about this. How are women
Speaker 3: specifically treated and sort of how are you conditioned to
Speaker 3: view yourself?
Speaker 2: Some of my earliest memories really are just discussing my
Speaker 2: wedding dress, discussing my husband, writing letters to my future husband,
Speaker 2: talking about purity, learning homemaking skills, ironing you know, I'm
Speaker 2: eight years old ironing a shirt, talking about, you know,
Speaker 2: taking care of my future family. And it's I think
Speaker 2: past just the idea that you know, everyone probably should
Speaker 2: learn how to take care of a home or cook
Speaker 2: a meal, but it was very much posed as this
Speaker 2: is your divine role from God. And even you know,
Speaker 2: there's something called a patriarchal blessing which is kind of
Speaker 2: I would like call it Mormon fortune telling, a little
Speaker 2: bit where a very important man within the church lays
Speaker 2: his hands on hit your head and basically is supposed
Speaker 2: to be speaking as if he's speaking from God and
Speaker 2: kind of telling you what's going to happen in your future.
Speaker 2: Much of my patriarchal blessing was about how I was
Speaker 2: going to be a mother in Zion and how I
Speaker 2: was going to like it was all just about my
Speaker 2: future children basically and my role as a wife and mother.
Speaker 2: And to think that a man is saying basically the
Speaker 2: most important things about your future and it's all encompassed
Speaker 2: around motherhood and wivehood. And then to read you know,
Speaker 2: now I read my husband's patriarchal blessing, and a lot
Speaker 2: of male men's patriarchal blessings is not about their children,
Speaker 2: their true children. And so if you can compare the
Speaker 2: what women are taught, if you compare that with what
Speaker 2: men are taught, it's also very different. So you could
Speaker 2: you know. I think I might have been able to,
Speaker 2: like stomach it if the boys were also learning how
Speaker 2: to take a girl on a date or how to
Speaker 2: also watch children or change a diaper. But the boys
Speaker 2: were often doing that like playing basketball or doing you know,
Speaker 2: hot water rafting, or doing boy scouts, learning to tie
Speaker 2: not you know, just more traditional boyhood kind of things.
Speaker 2: I think there was the actual kind of training around
Speaker 2: motherhood and family, but then there was the religious element
Speaker 2: of gender roles as divinely appointed upon you.
Speaker 3: As I was sort of learning more about you as
Speaker 3: you were coming of age, all of these gut feelings
Speaker 3: thinking that I'm being guided by God towards this person,
Speaker 3: towards this mission location, towards this job, receiving different answers
Speaker 3: that weren't in your gut. What does it like to
Speaker 3: process that doubt?
Speaker 2: I think it's it's really hard because it's very difficult
Speaker 2: to kind of see outside of yourself and to question
Speaker 2: the systems you're raised in a broiled in especially systems
Speaker 2: that you're taught as the most moral way to live.
Speaker 2: I feel like, even after leaving, I've had a lot
Speaker 2: of moments where I have to kind of question if
Speaker 2: my desire to pursue a certain path is coming from
Speaker 2: the real quote real meed versus if it's coming from
Speaker 2: the conditioning I received as a young person. And I
Speaker 2: think that in following some of those paths, I have
Speaker 2: often found that I'm still kind of living in this
Speaker 2: reactionary state where instead of looking toward what God wants
Speaker 2: me to do, I'm often kind of living in a
Speaker 2: way that is reacting to I just want to do
Speaker 2: the opposite of Mormonism, even though that's still kind of
Speaker 2: living my life according to Mormonism, it's just how I'm
Speaker 2: moving the opposite way instead of kind of somewhere in
Speaker 2: the middle of this like what I really want kind
Speaker 2: of idea that people have.
Speaker 3: How do you move forward with so much of what
Speaker 3: your life has been structured around being removed?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think initially it was very difficult, and even
Speaker 2: kind of admitting it to myself was really difficult. Like
Speaker 2: you mentioned earlier, I had all of these experiences kind
Speaker 2: of culminate where, for example, I had a really strong
Speaker 2: what I felt like was an answer from God that
Speaker 2: I was going to go on my Mormon mission to Italy,
Speaker 2: and I wrote it in my journal, and I wrote,
Speaker 2: you know, I know I'll go to Italy as sure
Speaker 2: as I know God lives, And it felt like a little,
Speaker 2: you know, testimony my claim to faith on the topic.
Speaker 2: And when I opened my mission call, it was to Denver, Colorado,
Speaker 2: not Italy. And you know, I still served a full
Speaker 2: Mormon mission. I still went to Denver, Colorado. I still
Speaker 2: was in the church for years after that. But I
Speaker 2: think that is kind of the easiest to encapsulate example
Speaker 2: of these moments that kind of hit me over and
Speaker 2: over again where I would have these really strong feelings,
Speaker 2: major revelations that I was using to kind of walk
Speaker 2: through life, only to realize that they were either wrong
Speaker 2: or that if I had made my own decisions about
Speaker 2: my own life without consulting God, I probably would have
Speaker 2: chosen better than quote God was choosing for me. So
Speaker 2: as I kind of came to that realization over years
Speaker 2: and years, my first year teaching, my dad had given
Speaker 2: me a blessing that I was meant to be a teacher,
Speaker 2: and that, of course I'm going to trust this blessing
Speaker 2: above all else I didn't pursue any other career paths.
Speaker 2: And then my first year as a teacher, I realized
Speaker 2: I absolutely hated it and was not cut out for it,
Speaker 2: and it was giving me a lot of mental health issues.
Speaker 2: About halfway through the school year, broke to my husband, Hey,
Speaker 2: I think I might not believe in this anymore. After
Speaker 2: a lot of conversations, we both decided that we wanted
Speaker 2: to leave together after reading a lot of church history
Speaker 2: for him, after lots of conversations, Like I said, so,
Speaker 2: it was really helpful. One of my favorite pictures of
Speaker 2: our whole marriage is us holding our coffee cups for
Speaker 2: the first time. For most people, such a simple, straightforward
Speaker 2: thing is like drinking your morning cup of coffee. This
Speaker 2: is our first ever cup of coffee. I think I
Speaker 2: was about twenty four at that point. Didn't grow horns,
Speaker 2: didn't fall beneath the floor, everything proceeded as normal. It
Speaker 2: was very underwhelming. Most sins after you leave the church,
Speaker 2: most sins of the ex Mormon, You're like, this is
Speaker 2: pretty underwhelming. I Also one of my favorite memories is
Speaker 2: the first time I went to after work drinks with
Speaker 2: my coworkers. They're kind of everybody's getting to know each
Speaker 2: other and like, why did you come to New York?
Speaker 2: And I start talking about Utah, Mormonism and leaving the
Speaker 2: church and garments, the religious underwear, the temple endowment, the
Speaker 2: prayer circle of the ceremony, the oaths, and the handshakes,
Speaker 2: and I just remember it was probably a group of
Speaker 2: fifteen people. But as I'm just talking, more and more
Speaker 2: people stop their conversations and just lean in to be like, wait,
Speaker 2: are you talking about leaving a cult right now? And
Speaker 2: like I could. It was kind of affirming to me
Speaker 2: to have And you know, I always have those experiences
Speaker 2: talking to people they don't know much about Mormons, because
Speaker 2: you can tell from the look on their face that
Speaker 2: you're not the crazy one for thinking you were raised
Speaker 2: in a very crazy religion. Whereas you know, if you're
Speaker 2: kind of talking to people in Utah, maybe they'll kind
Speaker 2: of act like, oh, this is all very normal. You know,
Speaker 2: of course Mormons were garments, but to someone who's never
Speaker 2: interfaced with the religion, it is probably ten to twenty
Speaker 2: times stranger and odder than people who are familiar with it.
Speaker 2: So that kind of surprise on people's faces has been
Speaker 2: healing from me in some way because it helps me
Speaker 2: feel like I'm not the sinner, I'm not the crazy one.
Speaker 2: It was what I was raised in, and that normalcy
Speaker 2: is not what I experienced as a kid, learning to
Speaker 2: iron shirts as an eight year old and writing letters
Speaker 2: to my husband about how I was saving myself for him.
Speaker 3: So, yeah, you're coming of age alongside the Internet and
Speaker 3: you're growing up with these very rigid beliefs. What was
Speaker 3: your relationship with the Internet as you were coming of
Speaker 3: age into your early adulthood.
Speaker 2: Oh, I think that one of my first Mormon memories
Speaker 2: is that there is there's a YouTuber who would go
Speaker 2: around and film the temple ceremonies. I remember, probably when
Speaker 2: I was like late middle school, early high school, coming
Speaker 2: across the thumbnail of you know, secrets inside a Mormon Temple,
Speaker 2: and okay, I remember thinking to myself, you know, I
Speaker 2: didn't click on it. And I remember I had friends
Speaker 2: at school who would say, you know, you can see
Speaker 2: what happens in the temple if you go on YouTube,
Speaker 2: and I remember, like, you know, that's probably what they're
Speaker 2: talking about. It's right there. I didn't click on it,
Speaker 2: and I you know, as a Mormon kid, you very
Speaker 2: much learned the term anti Mormon literature, that that's a
Speaker 2: whole thing you're warned against that you should you shouldn't
Speaker 2: look at anti Mormon literature. They're just trying to destroy
Speaker 2: your testimony. And so I remember just thinking to myself, Oh,
Speaker 2: this is anti Mormon content and I shouldn't watch it.
Speaker 2: And so, when I was still in high school, I
Speaker 2: think if I came across anything disfavorable about the church,
Speaker 2: I immediately just turned my brain off and thought, you know,
Speaker 2: this is satan. They told me about this, they and
Speaker 2: so because they told me about this, that's how I
Speaker 2: know that they are kind of foreseeing or foretelling the future,
Speaker 2: because they're warning me of this thing that I shouldn't
Speaker 2: look at.
Speaker 3: So you grow up alongside the internet, and then you
Speaker 3: start to see this influx of influencers who I first
Speaker 3: just saw labeled as trad wives the like Mormon aspect
Speaker 3: and that you know, however, hashtag not all tradwives are Mormons,
Speaker 3: but many of them are. Many of the most successful
Speaker 3: influencers are either Utah Mormon based or create content that
Speaker 3: really appeals. So when did you start noticing this content?
Speaker 3: And yeah, what did you make of it?
Speaker 2: That's a good question. And I mean, I feel like
Speaker 2: my whole childhood was kind of tradwife content. I feel
Speaker 2: like to some extent, I think that it's also a
Speaker 2: question of platform, because I feel like Instagram is meant
Speaker 2: for curation, and TikTok is kind of meant to question
Speaker 2: curation and to criticize curation. So I think that a
Speaker 2: lot of trad wife content kind of came up in
Speaker 2: the Instagram age, which is beautiful children, beautiful dresses, lovely
Speaker 2: sour dough, and it's very curated. It's often photos instead
Speaker 2: of videos, so it's harder to pick apart a curated
Speaker 2: photo instead of a video where there's like a voice
Speaker 2: in the background, or you know, you can pause the
Speaker 2: screenshot and say, what is what's the picture on their wall?
Speaker 2: So I think that the kind of transition away from
Speaker 2: Instagram into TikTok is also what kind of opened my
Speaker 2: mind more to the tradwife movement in specificity, I guess
Speaker 2: because prior to that, I just see, you know, beautiful
Speaker 2: kind of like a lot of people say that the
Speaker 2: Mormon tradwife movement came from Mormon mommy bloggers, which were
Speaker 2: super prevalent in the early two thousands, which is a
Speaker 2: lot of recipe making and diy stuff, and so it's
Speaker 2: kind of like this movement kind of re materialized onto
Speaker 2: Instagram after they already had their original audience on the
Speaker 2: blogging side of things. I think where it kind of
Speaker 2: hit its head is when we turn more to a
Speaker 2: TikTok type of investigation of things, where people are no
Speaker 2: longer looking for perfection or they're not looking to follow
Speaker 2: people that their post their posts just feel like a
Speaker 2: Pinterest board. I think Mormon is in very interesty. Mormon's
Speaker 2: love findrist to in my in my experience, So I
Speaker 2: think that that is what has kind of kicked back
Speaker 2: against tradwives is that for a long time, I think
Speaker 2: people just unquestioningly consumed the beautiful content. And when there's
Speaker 2: a voice over to a photo and the photo is
Speaker 2: not just it's a pretty photo of kids and some bread,
Speaker 2: Now it's I made this for my husband or I
Speaker 2: made this for my family, and then you know, and
Speaker 2: there's more of a narrative, Like the new video form
Speaker 2: of the tradwife content is narrative, and so it is
Speaker 2: developing much more of an ideology, in my opinion, behind
Speaker 2: the curated video the pictures that we once had, and
Speaker 2: I think two Mormons are taught to be so missionary
Speaker 2: minded that if someone is Mormon, they've probably talked about
Speaker 2: it at some point. I mean, the Mormon Church literally
Speaker 2: expressly says you should be talking about being Mormon online.
Speaker 2: You're told that explicitly, and so that also is an
Speaker 2: element of I think Mormon influencers are louder about their
Speaker 2: religion than a lot of influencers because they are acting
Speaker 2: on that kind of command from the prophet to speak
Speaker 2: loudly and speak often about their religion.
Speaker 3: It seems also because of how the algorithm works at
Speaker 3: any given point in time. There have been times where
Speaker 3: I have gotten content pipes to me from a Mormon influencer,
Speaker 3: but the content that I get it's not immediately clear
Speaker 3: where a lot of traadwave accounts that have ended up
Speaker 3: in my feed it takes me a little while to
Speaker 3: catch on that there is a specific religious element. Is
Speaker 3: that something you've also noticed. Do you feel that there's
Speaker 3: sort of any reasoning behind that, because you're saying, you know,
Speaker 3: the church wants you to talk about your religion as
Speaker 3: much as possible, But it feels like with some influencers
Speaker 3: to what end was not always clear to me right away.
Speaker 2: Yeah, in my opinion, the prevalence of people who are
Speaker 2: influence is mentioning Mormonism is greatest in their early stages,
Speaker 2: when they're first getting an audience, when they're first kind
Speaker 2: of finding their voice. I think once people reach like
Speaker 2: a critical mass of no longer just having Mormon followers,
Speaker 2: they have a lot of just general interest in their platforms.
Speaker 2: It's almost like a graph where the bigger they get,
Speaker 2: the less they mentioned Mormonism, because I think they realize
Speaker 2: that it's unpopular to a general audience, but it's very
Speaker 2: popular with the audience that you're growing early on. So
Speaker 2: I think that you know, for example, I know Ballerina
Speaker 2: Farm used to have a blog specifically about Mormonism, but
Speaker 2: if you google is so and so Mormon, you can
Speaker 2: always find an answer because they talked about it a
Speaker 2: lot early on, and there's always like an early interview.
Speaker 2: Same with Brooklyn and Bailey. They're not really tradwife stuff anymore,
Speaker 2: but they just have a big YouTube channel and they
Speaker 2: talked quite a bit about Mormonism early on, and now
Speaker 2: it essentially never appears. I think one of them has left,
Speaker 2: I'm not sure. Initially, to grow their audience, they're talking
Speaker 2: a lot about Mormonism because Mormons will follow you because
Speaker 2: they know you're Mormon, and then after they get big,
Speaker 2: they see it as maybe a bit more of a risk,
Speaker 2: or maybe that because they have more money and they're
Speaker 2: like a little bit less beholden to their community, maybe
Speaker 2: they're less likely to talk about it because they kind
Speaker 2: of can take on their own form of what they
Speaker 2: want to be talking about on the internet. So many Christians,
Speaker 2: I think if they see Mormon content and don't know
Speaker 2: what's Mormon content, or just like, you know, even tradwife
Speaker 2: content obviously appeals to kind of a more far right ideology.
Speaker 2: And I think all of those people, if they come
Speaker 2: across you know, trad wife content in general, they'll upvote
Speaker 2: it or like it or interact with it. The hard
Speaker 2: thing for Mormons is that a lot of people, just
Speaker 2: especially like evangelical Christians, do not really like Mormons, and
Speaker 2: especially they don't like that they're trying to kind of
Speaker 2: co opt. Then they would say the Christian movement or
Speaker 2: whatever and say they're Christians, and there's a lot of
Speaker 2: tension between are they Christians, aren't they Christians. So I
Speaker 2: think that that's another difficulty that they kind of have
Speaker 2: to interface with, is that their content by its nature
Speaker 2: of being kind of traditionally minded, appeals to this audience
Speaker 2: of a more like conservative Republican audience. But if they're
Speaker 2: too overt about their specific religion, I think, you know,
Speaker 2: if you're viewing it, which I do a little bit
Speaker 2: more as kind of like a brand that they're selling
Speaker 2: versus like their quote truth, real life or whatever, then
Speaker 2: they are recognizing that there's a risk to the brand
Speaker 2: in bringing that to the forefront. Now that a brand
Speaker 2: is large enough that it's kind of reaching a mass audience.
Speaker 2: But I don't know, like, I don't know if I'm
Speaker 2: just jaded or something like if I'm viewing them too
Speaker 2: much as like business minded versus if they just, you know,
Speaker 2: if they're just kind of waking up each morning, rolling
Speaker 2: out of bed, posting their pictures and not really wondering
Speaker 2: about audience retention or who sees what when and how
Speaker 2: can I reach the broadest number of people. So it's
Speaker 2: hard to get into the mind of these people. Really.
Speaker 3: We'll be right back with more with Alissa Grenfell. Maybe
Speaker 3: welcome back to sixteenth minute. I sort of had to
Speaker 3: wear something like temple garments in my youth, but it
Speaker 3: was these shoulder to me stinky cotton shirts I wore
Speaker 3: underneath my back brace, and unfortunately, there's no question about
Speaker 3: my personality that can't be answered with the sentence I
Speaker 3: wore a back brace for my entire adolescence. And now
Speaker 3: we continue our conversation with ex Mormon influencer and great
Speaker 3: theory Haver Alyssa Grenfell as I was sort of learning
Speaker 3: more about a recent subject I was covering. I found
Speaker 3: that out at the family was Mormon, but didn't really
Speaker 3: talk about it, and a lot of people were saying, like, oh,
Speaker 3: you should do an episode about like why are there
Speaker 3: so many successful Mormon women in the influencing space? And
Speaker 3: I was like, oh, I have no idea. And you
Speaker 3: mentioned sort of the most popular answer given, which is
Speaker 3: what I was encountering a lot, which is that young
Speaker 3: Mormon women are taught to journal a lot. So that's
Speaker 3: probably why they're successful at influencing. It doesn't not make sense,
Speaker 3: but felt just like a very incomplete answer. Could you
Speaker 3: take me through what made you start asking this question?
Speaker 3: Because people were telling you that they were getting ads
Speaker 3: for the Mormon Church on your content.
Speaker 2: That was how that started, right, Yeah, every interview I've
Speaker 2: ever spoken to is like why are there so many
Speaker 2: Mormon influencers? And I think they often ask it almost
Speaker 2: like in this secret, like can you tell me the answer?
Speaker 2: Like like I have this secret that I'm keeping and
Speaker 2: if I could just explain it, like like then that
Speaker 2: would explain the phenomenon. And it's I think it's you know,
Speaker 2: I think something like women journal and there was the
Speaker 2: mommy bloggers, and blogging is like journaling, and then once
Speaker 2: they're blogging, then they're on Instagram and it feels easy
Speaker 2: to understand. But I agree, like it feels kind of
Speaker 2: thin because lots of people journal and it doesn't mean
Speaker 2: that you're going to be famous one day just because
Speaker 2: you were journaling a lot when you were a little kid.
Speaker 2: But when I was posting my videos, I you know,
Speaker 2: especially initially, I'm still like learning YouTube. I think my
Speaker 2: first YouTube video is like ten months ago or something.
Speaker 2: I'm still under one year of learning this whole platform
Speaker 2: and stuff. But I would have people say, so funny,
Speaker 2: I just got a ad for the Mormon Church while
Speaker 2: I was watching this video, and I, you know, thinking
Speaker 2: it's so funny that they are advertising on my content,
Speaker 2: which obviously, if you understand the back end the Mormon
Speaker 2: Church purchases ad space through Google Google ad Sense, and
Speaker 2: then Google ad Sense looks for content that is relevant
Speaker 2: to put the ad on top of. So it's not
Speaker 2: like the Mormon Church are saying we like Alyssa Grenfell
Speaker 2: definitely not saying that, but the algorithm is basically looking
Speaker 2: for people saying Mormon, Mormon, Mormon, or Utah or whatever
Speaker 2: and then putting their ad space their ad spend behind
Speaker 2: that content. And I also, kind of in tandem with that,
Speaker 2: was on the YouTube subreddit and looking at the stuff
Speaker 2: about YouTube and realizing that my and my RPM, which
Speaker 2: is kind of how much you make off of your videos,
Speaker 2: was way higher than basically almost anyone else was quoting that,
Speaker 2: like my average kind of pay per view or pay
Speaker 2: per click or whatever was much higher than just kind
Speaker 2: of your average channel. I used to do some SEO
Speaker 2: for a previous employer, and I went and looked at
Speaker 2: the ads spend estimated behind different keywords, because people don't
Speaker 2: realize that the AD spend behind something like crafting is
Speaker 2: not the same as the AD spend behind something like
Speaker 2: open a new credit card, because it's basically the ad
Speaker 2: spend is proportionate to how much the advertiser is willing
Speaker 2: to spend to get the eyes of the viewer. So
Speaker 2: I realized, basically when I went and looked at the
Speaker 2: ad spend behind smoothies terms, that the ad spend was
Speaker 2: as high as very expensive advertising terms, so like to
Speaker 2: open a new credit card was thirty dollars per click,
Speaker 2: and something like crafting or maybe like sour dough bread
Speaker 2: is like two dollars. It's very low. So when I
Speaker 2: looked at Mormon terms like Mormon missionary was thirty dollars
Speaker 2: and Utah influencer was nineteen dollars, Mormon was twenty five dollars.
Speaker 2: And these are ad spends that are phenomenally high, especially
Speaker 2: when compared even with another religion. You know, Catholicism or
Speaker 2: catholic is two dollars, Judaism or jew is maybe four dollars.
Speaker 3: As someone raised Catholic, I was like, wow, Catholics found
Speaker 3: dead in a ditch, like not a profitable, not a
Speaker 3: profitable YouTube grip I was. I was truly blown away
Speaker 3: with how many times higher those keywords were scanning.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it felt like people don't realize that the
Speaker 2: Mormon Church is the richest church on the planet. It's
Speaker 2: similar to the net worth of Disney, you know, so,
Speaker 2: I mean, which I also have no idea the value
Speaker 2: of Disney. I think it's potentially even worth more than Disney.
Speaker 2: So it felt like there has to be some connection
Speaker 2: between the high ad spend on these keywords. I'm seeing
Speaker 2: it literally in my content. I'm seeing that I'm making
Speaker 2: more off of my videos than the average YouTuber, and
Speaker 2: then extending that to Utah influencers, which is that when
Speaker 2: they're making content, they're making more money, and basically realizing
Speaker 2: that because there's more money to be had out in Utah,
Speaker 2: that it can just support a far larger number of creators,
Speaker 2: especially in that phase of getting off the ground, right
Speaker 2: when they're talking about Mormonism the most, right when they're
Speaker 2: kind of like, let me try influencing for a bit, right,
Speaker 2: you know, before they get the brand sponsorship, before they
Speaker 2: get all the clicks for the commissions on Amazon whatever.
Speaker 2: Like I think I just basically took what was happening
Speaker 2: to me and thought, what's happening to me is happening
Speaker 2: to all these Utah Mormon influencers. They're being paid the
Speaker 2: same amount, Like if a guy is making finance content
Speaker 2: about investing in the S and P and they're making
Speaker 2: videos about sourdough. Those people are making the same amount
Speaker 2: of money, which is how irregular.
Speaker 3: I had no idea how much money the Mormon Church has.
Speaker 3: As you explained the video, the church is welcome to
Speaker 3: pour as much money into these keywords as they like,
Speaker 3: but they can't control whether the keywords are being talked
Speaker 3: about favorably. So it seems like there's like a world
Speaker 3: where the Mormon Church is accidentally cutting you checks for
Speaker 3: talking about why.
Speaker 2: You let anyone else you know? And I think that
Speaker 2: maybe to them it's worth it. I mean, I haven't
Speaker 2: seen those comments of I just got an ask for
Speaker 2: the Mormon Church. I'm still getting those comments, so I
Speaker 2: don't know, Like, I don't think I added them to
Speaker 2: the point that they are changing their strategy or anything.
Speaker 2: But it is kind of funny to realize that they
Speaker 2: are kind of engineering their own crisis by making it
Speaker 2: so that it's profitable enough to be a YouTuber talking
Speaker 2: about Mormonism, that they are kind of supporting the YouTuber's
Speaker 2: little you know, rent payment or whatever. YouTuber can keep
Speaker 2: going and keep making the negative videos, And it's a
Speaker 2: very funny little cycle, considering I once paid ten percent
Speaker 2: of my income to the church and now I'm slowly
Speaker 2: making it back.
Speaker 3: Tad wife influencers that started by talking about Mormonism quite
Speaker 3: a bit and probably don't talk about it as much now,
Speaker 3: they are also sort of getting cuts of this, even
Speaker 3: if they're not explicitly talking about the Mormon Church anymore.
Speaker 3: Do you think even if an influencer who started talking
Speaker 3: about Mormonism isn't anymore, does this still help the church.
Speaker 2: The most fascinating was that the term the search term
Speaker 2: Utah influencer. I think Utah influencer made about nineteen dollars
Speaker 2: per click. So if you compare that with New York
Speaker 2: City influencer, you know, San Francisco influencer, places where you assume,
Speaker 2: you know, that's the influencer capital of the world because
Speaker 2: that's especially of the US, those are all under five dollars.
Speaker 2: So you know, like I said, it's almost three times
Speaker 2: they're making three times as much. So a woman, a
Speaker 2: woman with her kids in New York, her kids in
Speaker 2: LA and a woman with her kids in Lehigh, Utah.
Speaker 2: The woman in Lehigh, Utah will probably make three times
Speaker 2: as much. The ad revenue with the lower cost of
Speaker 2: living right, and lower cost of living, and you know,
Speaker 2: probably her husband already has a job because he's been
Speaker 2: kind of trained to be the bread winner, just like
Speaker 2: she's been trained to be the housewife. As far as
Speaker 2: the church benefiting from it, I think it definitely does.
Speaker 2: I've had people tell me through comments or I've had
Speaker 2: some emails of people saying that Ballerina Farm just her
Speaker 2: content made them Google. You know, Mormons looking started looking
Speaker 2: to the church, considering getting a visit from the missionaries,
Speaker 2: consider getting a Book of Mormon. And it's kind of
Speaker 2: like a very soft advertisement in my opinion, where it's
Speaker 2: not someone coming on and saying I'd like to talk
Speaker 2: to you about why you should join them with church.
Speaker 2: But when you see a lifestyle presented that's very alluring
Speaker 2: and very beautiful, and you think to yourself, what it
Speaker 2: is about this person that made this lifestyle possible, and
Speaker 2: you realize they're part of the church. I think it
Speaker 2: kind of gives a higher level of influence to potentially
Speaker 2: someone who's curious and wondering what they can do to
Speaker 2: kind of live that life that they're seeing fantasized.
Speaker 3: Final thing, I mean, I just wanted to mention and
Speaker 3: talk a little bit as far as your theory goes,
Speaker 3: is that this is a way to sort of have
Speaker 3: these poster board influencers kind of representing, if not the
Speaker 3: church explicitly the you know, gender roles and the ideals
Speaker 3: of the church and the day to day without having
Speaker 3: it be traced back to supposing Ballerina firm, you know,
Speaker 3: wakes up tomorrow and is like, I'm done with the
Speaker 3: Mormon Church. It's not like she can say and the
Speaker 3: church has been paying me this much for this long
Speaker 3: to create this content. It creates this middleman.
Speaker 2: The church had a ton of success from Donnie and
Speaker 2: Marie Osmond because they're Mormon. They're more you know, the
Speaker 2: raised Mormon, still Mormon to this day, and they were,
Speaker 2: you know, nominal brand ambassadors for the church throughout their
Speaker 2: kind of heyday. Gladys Knight is also Mormon, and she
Speaker 2: did a concert at our ward in Kentucky at our
Speaker 2: big Congregation, and she's another example of someone who kind
Speaker 2: of became a bit of a brand ambassador. You know,
Speaker 2: she's doing concerts and I think pre internet and before
Speaker 2: gay issues, the awareness around LGBTQ issues, those people did
Speaker 2: really well, and typically it seems like they mostly stayed
Speaker 2: in the church, and so the church had a lot
Speaker 2: of success with these famous people being brand ambassadors for them,
Speaker 2: whereas now they've had it I think in more recent
Speaker 2: years backfire more often than they've had it work, like
Speaker 2: with David Archiletta. So David Archiletta was very well known
Speaker 2: within the church. He also gave concerts for the church.
Speaker 2: He served a Mormon mission. You can find a picture
Speaker 2: of him in the Mormon Chapter Nacle Choir where they
Speaker 2: did his slow zoom on him. And he was another
Speaker 2: poster child and another famous person. He's the sweetest you know,
Speaker 2: if you've ever heard him in interviews, he's so sweet.
Speaker 2: He's like he just has the kindest presence. And so
Speaker 2: I think he was kind of the perfect example of
Speaker 2: a great Mormon and a great ambassador. And then in
Speaker 2: like a few years ago, he came out as gay.
Speaker 2: He also kind of simultaneously came out as leaving the
Speaker 2: church and now has written a song about you know,
Speaker 2: I'd rather go to health and not love the people
Speaker 2: who I love, and in many ways has kind of
Speaker 2: been a reverse of all of the kind of quote
Speaker 2: good he would have done for the image of the
Speaker 2: Mormon Church. Now he's just basically a breathing example of
Speaker 2: the church's bigotry towards gay people. Because the church really
Speaker 2: tried to up their proximity to his image from a
Speaker 2: pr perspective, really hurt them now that they are no
Speaker 2: longer able to you know, now they've been damaged by
Speaker 2: his coming out against them and saying, hey, this church
Speaker 2: is homophobic. So I think that that's another reason they
Speaker 2: don't want to maybe formally approach someone like a Ballerina
Speaker 2: farm or any of these chadwife creators, because they know
Speaker 2: it will backfire against them. But they also know that
Speaker 2: these women are making the church look very good and
Speaker 2: very beautiful and traditional and feminine, and so I think
Speaker 2: this advertising revenue is kind of a way for them
Speaker 2: to support the blog sphere of the early two thousands
Speaker 2: through the Instagrammers and YouTubers of today by giving them
Speaker 2: ad revenue.
Speaker 3: We'll be right back with more with Alyssa Grenfell. Welcome
Speaker 3: back to sixteenth minute, and now we continue our conversation
Speaker 3: with Alyssa Grenfell.
Speaker 2: You know, when you're a YouTuber or when you get
Speaker 2: ad revenue from any social media platform, it just tells
Speaker 2: you the amount, and it tells you basically your cost perview,
Speaker 2: and that's it just says advertisers were willing to pay,
Speaker 2: and it's like a black box. They're not telling you,
Speaker 2: like which this percentage came from this organization, this percentage
Speaker 2: came from this organization. So it's like a black box
Speaker 2: in that you can't you don't even know. So the
Speaker 2: women can just make their content and look up in
Speaker 2: the morning and be like, look, babe, like, look at
Speaker 2: this money I made. I'll make more content tomorrow. I'm
Speaker 2: going to tell my friends. They won't necessarily see through
Speaker 2: kind of read the tea leaves of why am I
Speaker 2: making this much? I don't know if any of them
Speaker 2: are doing that, and maybe they are, and I'm just
Speaker 2: kind of one of the first they've talked about it.
Speaker 3: There's no one answer that's going to completely unlock why
Speaker 3: are there so many successful trad wife accounts at this
Speaker 3: specific moment. That answer ranges, you know, far beyond Mormonism.
Speaker 3: But I think your content has just helped me have
Speaker 3: a better sense of not just you and the culture
Speaker 3: that you had to leave behind, but also who is
Speaker 3: shaping the Internet. And it seems like the Mormon Church
Speaker 3: has no small part.
Speaker 2: In And it's so funny because when you say it
Speaker 2: like that, it sounds so kind of conspiratorial. It sounds,
Speaker 2: you know, the Mormons they're controlling the Internet. But it
Speaker 2: is funny because it I think to some extent it's true.
Speaker 2: I mean, not that they are literally holding the mouse
Speaker 2: and clicking the clicks, but in that they are exercising
Speaker 2: I think a pretty broad ad spend, the way that
Speaker 2: they are actively petitioning members to go on and share,
Speaker 2: share the Gospel, share talks, share resources about the church,
Speaker 2: and so I think that they do have like a
Speaker 2: fairly coordinated pr effort for the Internet specifically. Even one
Speaker 2: thing I didn't mention in that video is they have
Speaker 2: all these people who are hired to do SEO. And
Speaker 2: if you google something like Bible, the Mormon Church has
Speaker 2: like their their free Bible is one of the first
Speaker 2: organic things you see on Google is for to depress
Speaker 2: about today. Say it's same with I think Jesus Christ,
Speaker 2: same with New Testament. You know, all of these terms
Speaker 2: that are kind of general Christian terms. The Mormon Church
Speaker 2: has one of the top organic rankings for those searches,
Speaker 2: which is very purposeful and specific, you know, and that
Speaker 2: their attempt to kind of say, hey, if someone wants
Speaker 2: a Bible, we want to be the ones giving it
Speaker 2: to them. So I think that they do. You know,
Speaker 2: it's not just conspiratorial. They have what I view to
Speaker 2: be like a very specific, targeted plan for how to
Speaker 2: get people on the Internet interested in Mormonism. And it's multifaceted,
Speaker 2: and they have whole departments hired for this kind of thing.
Speaker 3: It just seems like the Mormon Church has adapted to
Speaker 3: the Internet age unusually well.
Speaker 2: I think they definitely viewed it as a great opportunity,
Speaker 2: and I think they've also viewed it. You know. People
Speaker 2: will also talk about how the Mormon Church will kind
Speaker 2: of spam the front page of Google so that ex
Speaker 2: Mormon stuff gets further and further down. So they'll, you know,
Speaker 2: instead of just having one article on a subject, they'll
Speaker 2: have like ten articles on a subject, and they'll try
Speaker 2: to get them all to rank so that the whole
Speaker 2: front page of Google is just faithful responses to questions
Speaker 2: about the origins of the church. They even put out
Speaker 2: all these essays that are about the history of the
Speaker 2: church so that they can kind of counter the anti
Speaker 2: Mormon literature.
Speaker 3: Is there anything I didn't ask that you feel like
Speaker 3: is relevant to this discussion?
Speaker 2: Sometimes I struggle with, you know, when I talk about
Speaker 2: tradwife things, I feel like people really want kind of
Speaker 2: a silver bullet answer. And I also think that I
Speaker 2: struggle sometimes with it's not a demonization of something like
Speaker 2: a tradwife, but it's maybe the critique because I often
Speaker 2: feel like tradwives didn't invent motherhood. Tradwives didn't invent being
Speaker 2: a wife, or like being in a loving relationship in partnership,
Speaker 2: and so sometimes have a I struggle with the nuance
Speaker 2: of critiquing something that is genuinely human and genuinely not
Speaker 2: like I think demonizing motherhood is not something we want
Speaker 2: to do, Demonizing being a loving partner is not something
Speaker 2: we want to do, But we want to critique the
Speaker 2: approach that these accounts are kind of sharing. And so
Speaker 2: in the critique sometimes there's a demonization that I think
Speaker 2: is kind of dangerous and not good for families or
Speaker 2: children specifically. So I think just a final infusion of
Speaker 2: nuance is what I is. The final thing I'd want
Speaker 2: to leave is just that it's not something that's quite
Speaker 2: as straightforward as saying Mormon women like to journal. It's
Speaker 2: very complicated. It's about the Internet, but it's also about conservatism,
Speaker 2: and it's about ro versus Wade, and it's about all
Speaker 2: of these different cultural forces.
Speaker 3: People should be allowed to live their lives comfortably however
Speaker 3: they choose to, and so it's just like, let's not
Speaker 3: go after a specific woman, Let's go after maybe the
Speaker 3: system that you can trace it back up to, which
Speaker 3: seems like a lot of what your work is trying
Speaker 3: to do is interrogate the system that and not you
Speaker 3: bully the byproducts of the system.
Speaker 2: That's kind of why I always say I'm anti Mormonism,
Speaker 2: but I'm not anti Mormon because I think people can
Speaker 2: still be criticized, obviously, but I think that in a
Speaker 2: more broad sense, the systems and the organizations and the
Speaker 2: dogmas are what are forming human behavior. And so instead
Speaker 2: of saying this one person sucks because of this X
Speaker 2: y Z, it's better and more helpful, I think, more informative,
Speaker 2: more educational to say this is the system that made
Speaker 2: this phenomenon exist to begin with.
Speaker 3: Thanks so much again to Alyssa for her time and patience.
Speaker 3: I really recommend her YouTube channel if you have any
Speaker 3: further questions about what it's like to grow up in
Speaker 3: the Mormon faith, what it's like to decondition oneself from
Speaker 3: a cult like upbringing, as well as some interesting interviews
Speaker 3: with fellow ex Mormons. You can also check out her
Speaker 3: book at the link in the description. So listeners to conclude,
Speaker 3: why are there so many successful Mormon wives and the
Speaker 3: influence space today? The answer is money. Okay, see you
Speaker 3: next week. In all seriousness, thank you so much again
Speaker 3: for listening. Please remember to subscribe to the show. If
Speaker 3: you like it, leave a friendly review, tell your friends.
Speaker 3: It all helps. I had a lot of fun making
Speaker 3: this episode. I learned a lot and it was really hard.
Speaker 3: So please let me know your thoughts and for your
Speaker 3: moment of fun or I guess more of a moment
Speaker 3: of reflection. This week, here is former American Idol contestant
Speaker 3: David Argiletta talking about why he left the Mormon Church.
Speaker 3: See you next week.
Speaker 1: One day I was just praying. I got on my
Speaker 1: knees and I said, God, if you're really there, and
Speaker 1: if you really have a purpose for me, just please
Speaker 1: take this from me. Please change, because I don't want
Speaker 1: to be a wish and I don't want to be
Speaker 1: like this, and I don't know why I am, and
Speaker 1: I just basically heard what I understood is what was
Speaker 1: always God told me. David, you need to stop asking
Speaker 1: me this. You're asking me the wrong thing because I
Speaker 1: don't intend to change, and you've been spending over half
Speaker 1: of your life now praying about this, asking me to
Speaker 1: change something that I don't intend to change.
Speaker 3: Sixteenth Minute is a production of fool Zone Media and
Speaker 3: iHeart Radios. It is written, hosted, and.
Speaker 4: Produced by me Jamie Lostus. Our executive producers are Sophie
Speaker 4: Lichtman and Robert Evans The maasi Ian Johnson.
Speaker 3: It is our supervising producer and our editor. Our theme
Speaker 3: song is by Sad thirteen and Pet.
Speaker 4: Shout outs to our dog producer Anderson my Kat's Flee
Speaker 4: and Casper and by Pet Rothbert who will outlive us
Speaker 4: all Bye