1
00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:17,160
Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media.

2
00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:12,360
Speaker 2: Start up nights Joy.

3
00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:16,000
Speaker 3: Time, So.

4
00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:21,600
Speaker 1: Stay Exclaim.

5
00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:59,440
Speaker 3: Sixteen sixteen sixteen, Welcome back to sixteenth Minute, the podcast

6
00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:01,360
Speaker 3: where we take a look at the internet's characters of

7
00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:03,840
Speaker 3: the day to see how their moment affected them and

8
00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:06,920
Speaker 3: what it says about the Internet and us. My name's

9
00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:09,240
Speaker 3: Jamie Loftus and this is part two of a series

10
00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:12,559
Speaker 3: trying to answer a question that I honestly thought would

11
00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:20,360
Speaker 3: be easier to answer, why is the Internet so dominated

12
00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:24,480
Speaker 3: by Mormon mommy influencers? So if you haven't listened to

13
00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:27,760
Speaker 3: part one yet, I recommend you do because this is

14
00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:32,560
Speaker 3: a frustratingly complicated question. Last time we talked about the

15
00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:36,160
Speaker 3: origins of the Mormon Church. It stands on race, gender,

16
00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:40,280
Speaker 3: and sexuality cliff notes not great, and it's history of

17
00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:44,319
Speaker 3: intersecting with conservative leaning social media trends among women. So

18
00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:47,480
Speaker 3: think mommy blogs of the two thousands. Mormon women were

19
00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:50,080
Speaker 3: at the top of that boom and were more open

20
00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:54,440
Speaker 3: about their religion than many influencers are today. Think about

21
00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:58,640
Speaker 3: another ongoing trend that's a whole subject unto itself. When

22
00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:01,600
Speaker 3: I'd like to dedicate more time in the future Mormon

23
00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:06,920
Speaker 3: women's intersection with major multi level marketing schemes, schemes that

24
00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:10,320
Speaker 3: rely on salespeople spending a lot of their own money

25
00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:13,280
Speaker 3: with usually diminishing returns if you don't get in on

26
00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:17,640
Speaker 3: the ground floor. Utah has the highest concentration of MLMs

27
00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:20,280
Speaker 3: in the country, and the door to door element. Isn't

28
00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:23,960
Speaker 3: that unlike the missionary spirit that the devout embark on

29
00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:26,160
Speaker 3: on behalf of the Church of Latter day Saints or

30
00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:31,639
Speaker 3: the LDS when they're young adults, sales as a mission. Actually,

31
00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:34,680
Speaker 3: if you're into obscure documentaries as much as I am.

32
00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:38,960
Speaker 3: One of the most famous contemporary failed MLM schemes was

33
00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:44,000
Speaker 3: actually founded by a Mormon couple, that being Lularo, the

34
00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:46,840
Speaker 3: ugly leggings company that was busted in a massive legal

35
00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:49,400
Speaker 3: scandal in the twenty tens. You tell the people you

36
00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:51,280
Speaker 3: love they're an a Peermid scheme, and they go, no,

37
00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:53,400
Speaker 3: I'm not, You're just a hater. I own my own business.

38
00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:54,440
Speaker 3: I'm very successful.

39
00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:57,320
Speaker 2: My orders would smell disgusted.

40
00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:00,360
Speaker 3: It was just insane, the amount of hoops at jump

41
00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:04,920
Speaker 3: Through to get them to ever admit that their product

42
00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:05,440
Speaker 3: was faulty.

43
00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:10,280
Speaker 2: I would sometimes open bags and they'd be wet.

44
00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:12,919
Speaker 3: And when it comes to recruiting for MLMs, Mormon women

45
00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:16,440
Speaker 3: tend to be excellent marks because of the rigid gender

46
00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:19,120
Speaker 3: roles of the religion that encourage many women to stay

47
00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:22,160
Speaker 3: at home. Things like Lulu ro might be the only

48
00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:24,800
Speaker 3: opportunity for them to make a living on their own,

49
00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:28,720
Speaker 3: not to mention the close knit Mormon communities offering a

50
00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:32,240
Speaker 3: ton of customers. It's not quite that simple, but you

51
00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:35,800
Speaker 3: see where I'm going with this, And of course, there

52
00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:39,800
Speaker 3: is significant crossover with Mormon women and the current, if

53
00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:44,840
Speaker 3: somewhat dwindling, tradwive content that's become extremely popular on Instagram

54
00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:47,640
Speaker 3: and TikTok. We talk about this quite a bit in

55
00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:50,920
Speaker 3: the first part of the series, specifically about users from

56
00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:53,840
Speaker 3: mom Talk, the stars of the new show The Secret

57
00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:57,760
Speaker 3: Lives of Mormon Wives, and Ballerina farm, a ten million

58
00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:02,920
Speaker 3: follower influencer who presents at Homestead Lifestyle while say it

59
00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:05,520
Speaker 3: with me, selling that idea to her followers as a

60
00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:08,680
Speaker 3: part of what is very much a job unto itself.

61
00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:11,800
Speaker 3: The more I think about it, tradwives are actually not

62
00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:16,120
Speaker 3: straying from these similarly flawed girl boss archetypes the way

63
00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:19,279
Speaker 3: that they think they are, but that's for another day,

64
00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:23,960
Speaker 3: because now we're going to forge into part two, shall we?

65
00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:29,760
Speaker 3: Even with the context I've given you, I was still

66
00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:35,240
Speaker 3: confused because, yes, white heteroconservatism sells online, we know that,

67
00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:40,039
Speaker 3: But why this religion, specifically, what about Mormon content is

68
00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:43,040
Speaker 3: bringing them to the top of your feed ex Mormon

69
00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:46,640
Speaker 3: influencer Alyssa Grenfell has been asking this question too. She

70
00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:50,520
Speaker 3: was raised and extremely devout Utah Mormon, went on a mission,

71
00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:54,760
Speaker 3: got married at an LDS temple the whole nine yards. Eventually,

72
00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:57,760
Speaker 3: like one in three young Mormons today, she left the

73
00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:00,600
Speaker 3: church in her twenties with her husband, and after they

74
00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:03,560
Speaker 3: both found themselves questioning the values they'd grown up with.

75
00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:07,279
Speaker 3: For Alissa's husband, the radicalizing issue was the church's stance

76
00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:10,720
Speaker 3: on gay marriage, and for Alissa, it was a series

77
00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:14,160
Speaker 3: of crises of faith. Over and over. What Alyssa felt

78
00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:18,160
Speaker 3: God wanted for her was directly contradicted by priests and

79
00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:20,880
Speaker 3: her father. She was called to do a mission two

80
00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:24,000
Speaker 3: thousand miles away from where she expected. She was told

81
00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:26,760
Speaker 3: by her father that God needed her to be a teacher,

82
00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:29,440
Speaker 3: when she had no interest in teaching and didn't feel

83
00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:31,920
Speaker 3: she had the natural skill set to do it, so

84
00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:35,239
Speaker 3: eventually the two leave the Mormon Church. They start drinking

85
00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:38,719
Speaker 3: coffee and cocktails and Alyssa was motivated to join YouTube

86
00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:41,720
Speaker 3: after self publishing her first book, and while she's been

87
00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:44,039
Speaker 3: on YouTube for less than a year, she already has

88
00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:47,720
Speaker 3: nearly a quarter million subscribers, and my favorite video of

89
00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:53,120
Speaker 3: hers presents a pretty compelling theory. Alyssa suggests that sure,

90
00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:57,159
Speaker 3: Mormon tradwife content does play into the algorithm as far

91
00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:00,800
Speaker 3: as esthetics, but it's very possible at the Church of

92
00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:05,680
Speaker 3: Latter day Saints itself is bankrolling these Mormon mommy influencers

93
00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:09,800
Speaker 3: without the influencers being able to say for sure that

94
00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:12,240
Speaker 3: it's them. Here's a clip from that video.

95
00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:17,279
Speaker 2: So different niches, different types of content on the Internet

96
00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:20,360
Speaker 2: make different amounts of money. You can see you're off

97
00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:22,880
Speaker 2: to the side that depending on the type of content

98
00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:26,520
Speaker 2: you make, you're gonna make different amounts of money. For example,

99
00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:29,800
Speaker 2: anything to do with money and finance makes a lot

100
00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:33,480
Speaker 2: more money than a video about cooking. The reason for

101
00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:36,280
Speaker 2: this is that the money that you make off your

102
00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:40,560
Speaker 2: content is driven by how much advertisers are willing to

103
00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:43,920
Speaker 2: pay for it. Banks, for example, have a lot of

104
00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:46,600
Speaker 2: money and so they can drive a ton of money

105
00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:50,200
Speaker 2: into advertising. So if you made content a video about

106
00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:53,279
Speaker 2: the best bank accounts to open, you could get paid

107
00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:56,920
Speaker 2: approximately twelve dollars and twenty five cents for each one

108
00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:00,200
Speaker 2: thousand views on that video. When Google or an other

109
00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:03,840
Speaker 2: ad platform goes to put ads on top of that content,

110
00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:06,919
Speaker 2: they will recognize it as a piece of content that

111
00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:09,840
Speaker 2: advertisers are willing to pay a lot of money for.

112
00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:12,560
Speaker 2: So the length of the video could be the same,

113
00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:15,200
Speaker 2: the person in the video could be the same, but

114
00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:19,480
Speaker 2: depending on the content, you're getting paid a wildly different

115
00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:23,160
Speaker 2: amount of money for the type of content you're posting.

116
00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:26,880
Speaker 2: A major way that Google and other advertisers figures out

117
00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:30,080
Speaker 2: where to put ads is through something called keywords. So

118
00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:33,880
Speaker 2: these keywords will be something like credit card or open

119
00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:38,000
Speaker 2: bank account that signal to the algorithm, to the ad

120
00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:42,400
Speaker 2: algorithm that you've made content that aligns with what advertisers

121
00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:43,200
Speaker 2: are looking for.

122
00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:47,320
Speaker 3: Alissa only started investigating this search term question when she

123
00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:50,520
Speaker 3: was getting repeated feedback that her viewers were getting ads

124
00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:53,400
Speaker 3: for the Mormon Church on her videos, which is weird

125
00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:57,360
Speaker 3: because Alyssa's content is doing the opposite of encouraging people

126
00:07:57,400 --> 00:08:00,400
Speaker 3: to join the church. And what's more, when she into

127
00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:02,560
Speaker 3: the amount that she was making on YouTube and the

128
00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:05,840
Speaker 3: amount of algorithmic preference she was getting less than a

129
00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:09,239
Speaker 3: year into her time versus other creators, she was getting

130
00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:12,120
Speaker 3: a lot more engagement and making a lot more money.

131
00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:14,600
Speaker 3: Why she explains more in the video.

132
00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:17,920
Speaker 2: You can see here that the keyword new bank costs

133
00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:21,720
Speaker 2: twenty five dollars and thirty cents. That's how much advertisers

134
00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:25,000
Speaker 2: are willing to pay for this keyword. So compare that

135
00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:27,760
Speaker 2: to Catholic. That's a huge difference. So if I'm making

136
00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:31,240
Speaker 2: my content about finance, I'm going to see a lot

137
00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:34,720
Speaker 2: more ad revenue coming my way because there are lots

138
00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:38,480
Speaker 2: of advertisers who are willing to pay Google to try

139
00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:41,439
Speaker 2: to capture your eye to open a new bank account

140
00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:44,880
Speaker 2: with them. The Church definitely does advertising online. And if

141
00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:48,320
Speaker 2: I go to YouTube and type in Mormon missionary, I

142
00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:50,640
Speaker 2: can see that there's an ad at the top. This

143
00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:52,640
Speaker 2: is an ad that the church paid to put there,

144
00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:56,160
Speaker 2: So Mormon missionary. There's an ad in my YouTube trying

145
00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:58,480
Speaker 2: to get me to meet with Mormon missionaries. So we

146
00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:00,920
Speaker 2: already looked at the term Catholic. The cost per click.

147
00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:04,120
Speaker 2: The ad revenue behind Catholic is three dollars and fifty

148
00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:06,480
Speaker 2: eight cents. If you look at the term Baptist, the

149
00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:09,440
Speaker 2: cost per click is a dollar twenty six cents. I

150
00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:12,120
Speaker 2: tried looking up a religion that's a little closer to Mormonism.

151
00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:15,360
Speaker 2: Jehovah's Witness is an American religion. If you want to

152
00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:17,959
Speaker 2: advertise using the key term Jehovah's Witness, it's going to

153
00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:21,240
Speaker 2: cost you four dollars and sixty four cents. The cost

154
00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:25,240
Speaker 2: per click for the term Mormon is twenty four dollars

155
00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:29,200
Speaker 2: and seventy one cents. And if you recall, the Mormon

156
00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:33,120
Speaker 2: Church has more money than Wells Fargo. And the reason

157
00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:36,720
Speaker 2: that that number is so high, I believe is because

158
00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:41,559
Speaker 2: there is a multi billion dollar organization that is funneling

159
00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:45,280
Speaker 2: money into ad spend around the term Mormon.

160
00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:49,120
Speaker 3: So this theory isn't and can't be proven without the

161
00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:52,880
Speaker 3: LDS being straightforward about their finances, which will never happen.

162
00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:55,040
Speaker 2: So I'll let Alyssa take it.

163
00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:58,680
Speaker 3: From here without any further ado. Here is my interview

164
00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:01,040
Speaker 3: with the fantastic Alyssa Grenfell.

165
00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:04,559
Speaker 2: Hi. My name is Elsa Grenfell and I am an

166
00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:10,000
Speaker 2: ex Mormon content creator and author. I was very Mormon

167
00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:12,679
Speaker 2: growing up. I grew up in a varianted about home,

168
00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:14,520
Speaker 2: and then I left the church when I was about

169
00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:18,200
Speaker 2: twenty three, after serving a Mormon mission and getting married

170
00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:20,360
Speaker 2: in a Mormon temple and doing all the Mormon things.

171
00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:25,000
Speaker 2: And now I make content around what you know, the

172
00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:29,160
Speaker 2: history of the churches, current church teachings, the doctrine, personal experiences,

173
00:10:29,679 --> 00:10:32,000
Speaker 2: and that is kind of the focus of what I

174
00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:32,880
Speaker 2: put on the Internet.

175
00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:36,000
Speaker 3: I grew up in Massachusetts. I grew up like like,

176
00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:39,360
Speaker 3: I didn't know anything about Mormon culture outside of what

177
00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:42,720
Speaker 3: was in pop culture when I was growing up growing

178
00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:44,319
Speaker 3: up in the Mormon Church. I know that you've made

179
00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:48,600
Speaker 3: a significant amount of content about this. How are women

180
00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:51,680
Speaker 3: specifically treated and sort of how are you conditioned to

181
00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:52,680
Speaker 3: view yourself?

182
00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:56,760
Speaker 2: Some of my earliest memories really are just discussing my

183
00:10:56,800 --> 00:11:02,280
Speaker 2: wedding dress, discussing my husband, writing letters to my future husband,

184
00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:07,680
Speaker 2: talking about purity, learning homemaking skills, ironing you know, I'm

185
00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:11,199
Speaker 2: eight years old ironing a shirt, talking about, you know,

186
00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:13,760
Speaker 2: taking care of my future family. And it's I think

187
00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:17,319
Speaker 2: past just the idea that you know, everyone probably should

188
00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:19,440
Speaker 2: learn how to take care of a home or cook

189
00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:23,360
Speaker 2: a meal, but it was very much posed as this

190
00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:27,880
Speaker 2: is your divine role from God. And even you know,

191
00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:30,679
Speaker 2: there's something called a patriarchal blessing which is kind of

192
00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:33,520
Speaker 2: I would like call it Mormon fortune telling, a little

193
00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:36,640
Speaker 2: bit where a very important man within the church lays

194
00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:39,480
Speaker 2: his hands on hit your head and basically is supposed

195
00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:42,199
Speaker 2: to be speaking as if he's speaking from God and

196
00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:44,680
Speaker 2: kind of telling you what's going to happen in your future.

197
00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:47,520
Speaker 2: Much of my patriarchal blessing was about how I was

198
00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:50,000
Speaker 2: going to be a mother in Zion and how I

199
00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:52,000
Speaker 2: was going to like it was all just about my

200
00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:55,000
Speaker 2: future children basically and my role as a wife and mother.

201
00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:57,920
Speaker 2: And to think that a man is saying basically the

202
00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:01,679
Speaker 2: most important things about your future and it's all encompassed

203
00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:04,960
Speaker 2: around motherhood and wivehood. And then to read you know,

204
00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:07,960
Speaker 2: now I read my husband's patriarchal blessing, and a lot

205
00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:11,160
Speaker 2: of male men's patriarchal blessings is not about their children,

206
00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:14,320
Speaker 2: their true children. And so if you can compare the

207
00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:17,120
Speaker 2: what women are taught, if you compare that with what

208
00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:21,120
Speaker 2: men are taught, it's also very different. So you could

209
00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:22,840
Speaker 2: you know. I think I might have been able to,

210
00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:26,679
Speaker 2: like stomach it if the boys were also learning how

211
00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:29,840
Speaker 2: to take a girl on a date or how to

212
00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:33,400
Speaker 2: also watch children or change a diaper. But the boys

213
00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:36,800
Speaker 2: were often doing that like playing basketball or doing you know,

214
00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:41,160
Speaker 2: hot water rafting, or doing boy scouts, learning to tie

215
00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:44,880
Speaker 2: not you know, just more traditional boyhood kind of things.

216
00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:49,160
Speaker 2: I think there was the actual kind of training around

217
00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:52,880
Speaker 2: motherhood and family, but then there was the religious element

218
00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:56,920
Speaker 2: of gender roles as divinely appointed upon you.

219
00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:00,120
Speaker 3: As I was sort of learning more about you as

220
00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:03,880
Speaker 3: you were coming of age, all of these gut feelings

221
00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:08,280
Speaker 3: thinking that I'm being guided by God towards this person,

222
00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:13,800
Speaker 3: towards this mission location, towards this job, receiving different answers

223
00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:16,559
Speaker 3: that weren't in your gut. What does it like to

224
00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:19,040
Speaker 3: process that doubt?

225
00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:22,840
Speaker 2: I think it's it's really hard because it's very difficult

226
00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:26,240
Speaker 2: to kind of see outside of yourself and to question

227
00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:29,959
Speaker 2: the systems you're raised in a broiled in especially systems

228
00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:32,320
Speaker 2: that you're taught as the most moral way to live.

229
00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:36,000
Speaker 2: I feel like, even after leaving, I've had a lot

230
00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:38,920
Speaker 2: of moments where I have to kind of question if

231
00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:42,280
Speaker 2: my desire to pursue a certain path is coming from

232
00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:46,360
Speaker 2: the real quote real meed versus if it's coming from

233
00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:50,560
Speaker 2: the conditioning I received as a young person. And I

234
00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:54,400
Speaker 2: think that in following some of those paths, I have

235
00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:57,200
Speaker 2: often found that I'm still kind of living in this

236
00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:04,400
Speaker 2: reactionary state where instead of looking toward what God wants

237
00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:06,800
Speaker 2: me to do, I'm often kind of living in a

238
00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:09,720
Speaker 2: way that is reacting to I just want to do

239
00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:12,800
Speaker 2: the opposite of Mormonism, even though that's still kind of

240
00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:16,079
Speaker 2: living my life according to Mormonism, it's just how I'm

241
00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:19,680
Speaker 2: moving the opposite way instead of kind of somewhere in

242
00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:22,440
Speaker 2: the middle of this like what I really want kind

243
00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:23,920
Speaker 2: of idea that people have.

244
00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:28,840
Speaker 3: How do you move forward with so much of what

245
00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:31,000
Speaker 3: your life has been structured around being removed?

246
00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:34,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think initially it was very difficult, and even

247
00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:38,280
Speaker 2: kind of admitting it to myself was really difficult. Like

248
00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:42,480
Speaker 2: you mentioned earlier, I had all of these experiences kind

249
00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:46,440
Speaker 2: of culminate where, for example, I had a really strong

250
00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:48,360
Speaker 2: what I felt like was an answer from God that

251
00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:51,880
Speaker 2: I was going to go on my Mormon mission to Italy,

252
00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:54,520
Speaker 2: and I wrote it in my journal, and I wrote,

253
00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:56,360
Speaker 2: you know, I know I'll go to Italy as sure

254
00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:59,720
Speaker 2: as I know God lives, And it felt like a little,

255
00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:03,440
Speaker 2: you know, testimony my claim to faith on the topic.

256
00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:08,000
Speaker 2: And when I opened my mission call, it was to Denver, Colorado,

257
00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:11,600
Speaker 2: not Italy. And you know, I still served a full

258
00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:14,440
Speaker 2: Mormon mission. I still went to Denver, Colorado. I still

259
00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:16,160
Speaker 2: was in the church for years after that. But I

260
00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:19,960
Speaker 2: think that is kind of the easiest to encapsulate example

261
00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:23,120
Speaker 2: of these moments that kind of hit me over and

262
00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:26,240
Speaker 2: over again where I would have these really strong feelings,

263
00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:29,600
Speaker 2: major revelations that I was using to kind of walk

264
00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:33,400
Speaker 2: through life, only to realize that they were either wrong

265
00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:36,680
Speaker 2: or that if I had made my own decisions about

266
00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:39,600
Speaker 2: my own life without consulting God, I probably would have

267
00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:43,160
Speaker 2: chosen better than quote God was choosing for me. So

268
00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:46,960
Speaker 2: as I kind of came to that realization over years

269
00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:50,800
Speaker 2: and years, my first year teaching, my dad had given

270
00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:52,800
Speaker 2: me a blessing that I was meant to be a teacher,

271
00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:56,000
Speaker 2: and that, of course I'm going to trust this blessing

272
00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:59,240
Speaker 2: above all else I didn't pursue any other career paths.

273
00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:01,160
Speaker 2: And then my first year as a teacher, I realized

274
00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:04,440
Speaker 2: I absolutely hated it and was not cut out for it,

275
00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:06,560
Speaker 2: and it was giving me a lot of mental health issues.

276
00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:10,000
Speaker 2: About halfway through the school year, broke to my husband, Hey,

277
00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:14,440
Speaker 2: I think I might not believe in this anymore. After

278
00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:17,880
Speaker 2: a lot of conversations, we both decided that we wanted

279
00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:20,360
Speaker 2: to leave together after reading a lot of church history

280
00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:23,480
Speaker 2: for him, after lots of conversations, Like I said, so,

281
00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:26,400
Speaker 2: it was really helpful. One of my favorite pictures of

282
00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:30,040
Speaker 2: our whole marriage is us holding our coffee cups for

283
00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:33,440
Speaker 2: the first time. For most people, such a simple, straightforward

284
00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:35,960
Speaker 2: thing is like drinking your morning cup of coffee. This

285
00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:38,080
Speaker 2: is our first ever cup of coffee. I think I

286
00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:41,040
Speaker 2: was about twenty four at that point. Didn't grow horns,

287
00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:45,280
Speaker 2: didn't fall beneath the floor, everything proceeded as normal. It

288
00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:48,160
Speaker 2: was very underwhelming. Most sins after you leave the church,

289
00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:50,240
Speaker 2: most sins of the ex Mormon, You're like, this is

290
00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:53,040
Speaker 2: pretty underwhelming. I Also one of my favorite memories is

291
00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:55,880
Speaker 2: the first time I went to after work drinks with

292
00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:58,600
Speaker 2: my coworkers. They're kind of everybody's getting to know each

293
00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:00,800
Speaker 2: other and like, why did you come to New York?

294
00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:03,960
Speaker 2: And I start talking about Utah, Mormonism and leaving the

295
00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:08,159
Speaker 2: church and garments, the religious underwear, the temple endowment, the

296
00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:10,840
Speaker 2: prayer circle of the ceremony, the oaths, and the handshakes,

297
00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:12,840
Speaker 2: and I just remember it was probably a group of

298
00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:15,040
Speaker 2: fifteen people. But as I'm just talking, more and more

299
00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:18,359
Speaker 2: people stop their conversations and just lean in to be like, wait,

300
00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:21,760
Speaker 2: are you talking about leaving a cult right now? And

301
00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:25,600
Speaker 2: like I could. It was kind of affirming to me

302
00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:28,000
Speaker 2: to have And you know, I always have those experiences

303
00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:30,400
Speaker 2: talking to people they don't know much about Mormons, because

304
00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:32,720
Speaker 2: you can tell from the look on their face that

305
00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:35,840
Speaker 2: you're not the crazy one for thinking you were raised

306
00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:39,639
Speaker 2: in a very crazy religion. Whereas you know, if you're

307
00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:41,880
Speaker 2: kind of talking to people in Utah, maybe they'll kind

308
00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:43,960
Speaker 2: of act like, oh, this is all very normal. You know,

309
00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:47,040
Speaker 2: of course Mormons were garments, but to someone who's never

310
00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:51,160
Speaker 2: interfaced with the religion, it is probably ten to twenty

311
00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:55,560
Speaker 2: times stranger and odder than people who are familiar with it.

312
00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:58,840
Speaker 2: So that kind of surprise on people's faces has been

313
00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:01,040
Speaker 2: healing from me in some way because it helps me

314
00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:03,680
Speaker 2: feel like I'm not the sinner, I'm not the crazy one.

315
00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:06,960
Speaker 2: It was what I was raised in, and that normalcy

316
00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:11,520
Speaker 2: is not what I experienced as a kid, learning to

317
00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:14,560
Speaker 2: iron shirts as an eight year old and writing letters

318
00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:17,160
Speaker 2: to my husband about how I was saving myself for him.

319
00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:21,320
Speaker 3: So, yeah, you're coming of age alongside the Internet and

320
00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:23,480
Speaker 3: you're growing up with these very rigid beliefs. What was

321
00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:28,280
Speaker 3: your relationship with the Internet as you were coming of

322
00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:30,000
Speaker 3: age into your early adulthood.

323
00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:34,280
Speaker 2: Oh, I think that one of my first Mormon memories

324
00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:37,720
Speaker 2: is that there is there's a YouTuber who would go

325
00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:42,880
Speaker 2: around and film the temple ceremonies. I remember, probably when

326
00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:45,040
Speaker 2: I was like late middle school, early high school, coming

327
00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:49,800
Speaker 2: across the thumbnail of you know, secrets inside a Mormon Temple,

328
00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:54,080
Speaker 2: and okay, I remember thinking to myself, you know, I

329
00:18:54,119 --> 00:18:56,720
Speaker 2: didn't click on it. And I remember I had friends

330
00:18:56,720 --> 00:18:58,840
Speaker 2: at school who would say, you know, you can see

331
00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:01,760
Speaker 2: what happens in the temple if you go on YouTube,

332
00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:04,320
Speaker 2: and I remember, like, you know, that's probably what they're

333
00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:06,760
Speaker 2: talking about. It's right there. I didn't click on it,

334
00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:09,639
Speaker 2: and I you know, as a Mormon kid, you very

335
00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:12,960
Speaker 2: much learned the term anti Mormon literature, that that's a

336
00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:15,640
Speaker 2: whole thing you're warned against that you should you shouldn't

337
00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:18,080
Speaker 2: look at anti Mormon literature. They're just trying to destroy

338
00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:21,040
Speaker 2: your testimony. And so I remember just thinking to myself, Oh,

339
00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:25,600
Speaker 2: this is anti Mormon content and I shouldn't watch it.

340
00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:27,600
Speaker 2: And so, when I was still in high school, I

341
00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:30,359
Speaker 2: think if I came across anything disfavorable about the church,

342
00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:34,399
Speaker 2: I immediately just turned my brain off and thought, you know,

343
00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:36,879
Speaker 2: this is satan. They told me about this, they and

344
00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:38,800
Speaker 2: so because they told me about this, that's how I

345
00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:43,000
Speaker 2: know that they are kind of foreseeing or foretelling the future,

346
00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:46,000
Speaker 2: because they're warning me of this thing that I shouldn't

347
00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:46,440
Speaker 2: look at.

348
00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:49,320
Speaker 3: So you grow up alongside the internet, and then you

349
00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:53,760
Speaker 3: start to see this influx of influencers who I first

350
00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:58,120
Speaker 3: just saw labeled as trad wives the like Mormon aspect

351
00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:01,680
Speaker 3: and that you know, however, hashtag not all tradwives are Mormons,

352
00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:04,440
Speaker 3: but many of them are. Many of the most successful

353
00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:08,639
Speaker 3: influencers are either Utah Mormon based or create content that

354
00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:14,080
Speaker 3: really appeals. So when did you start noticing this content?

355
00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:16,480
Speaker 3: And yeah, what did you make of it?

356
00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:18,879
Speaker 2: That's a good question. And I mean, I feel like

357
00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:24,080
Speaker 2: my whole childhood was kind of tradwife content. I feel

358
00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:26,520
Speaker 2: like to some extent, I think that it's also a

359
00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:30,119
Speaker 2: question of platform, because I feel like Instagram is meant

360
00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:34,280
Speaker 2: for curation, and TikTok is kind of meant to question

361
00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:39,600
Speaker 2: curation and to criticize curation. So I think that a

362
00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:42,639
Speaker 2: lot of trad wife content kind of came up in

363
00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:48,359
Speaker 2: the Instagram age, which is beautiful children, beautiful dresses, lovely

364
00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:52,800
Speaker 2: sour dough, and it's very curated. It's often photos instead

365
00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:55,360
Speaker 2: of videos, so it's harder to pick apart a curated

366
00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:58,480
Speaker 2: photo instead of a video where there's like a voice

367
00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:00,919
Speaker 2: in the background, or you know, you can pause the

368
00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:03,800
Speaker 2: screenshot and say, what is what's the picture on their wall?

369
00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:07,520
Speaker 2: So I think that the kind of transition away from

370
00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:11,280
Speaker 2: Instagram into TikTok is also what kind of opened my

371
00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:16,800
Speaker 2: mind more to the tradwife movement in specificity, I guess

372
00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:19,879
Speaker 2: because prior to that, I just see, you know, beautiful

373
00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:22,520
Speaker 2: kind of like a lot of people say that the

374
00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:26,800
Speaker 2: Mormon tradwife movement came from Mormon mommy bloggers, which were

375
00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:29,919
Speaker 2: super prevalent in the early two thousands, which is a

376
00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:33,600
Speaker 2: lot of recipe making and diy stuff, and so it's

377
00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:37,399
Speaker 2: kind of like this movement kind of re materialized onto

378
00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:41,240
Speaker 2: Instagram after they already had their original audience on the

379
00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:44,080
Speaker 2: blogging side of things. I think where it kind of

380
00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:48,320
Speaker 2: hit its head is when we turn more to a

381
00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:52,359
Speaker 2: TikTok type of investigation of things, where people are no

382
00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:56,119
Speaker 2: longer looking for perfection or they're not looking to follow

383
00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:59,000
Speaker 2: people that their post their posts just feel like a

384
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:02,360
Speaker 2: Pinterest board. I think Mormon is in very interesty. Mormon's

385
00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:04,919
Speaker 2: love findrist to in my in my experience, So I

386
00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:07,920
Speaker 2: think that that is what has kind of kicked back

387
00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:10,560
Speaker 2: against tradwives is that for a long time, I think

388
00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:15,960
Speaker 2: people just unquestioningly consumed the beautiful content. And when there's

389
00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:18,520
Speaker 2: a voice over to a photo and the photo is

390
00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:21,200
Speaker 2: not just it's a pretty photo of kids and some bread,

391
00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:25,080
Speaker 2: Now it's I made this for my husband or I

392
00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:28,240
Speaker 2: made this for my family, and then you know, and

393
00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:31,480
Speaker 2: there's more of a narrative, Like the new video form

394
00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:35,080
Speaker 2: of the tradwife content is narrative, and so it is

395
00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:38,440
Speaker 2: developing much more of an ideology, in my opinion, behind

396
00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:41,919
Speaker 2: the curated video the pictures that we once had, and

397
00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:45,040
Speaker 2: I think two Mormons are taught to be so missionary

398
00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:49,480
Speaker 2: minded that if someone is Mormon, they've probably talked about

399
00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:52,480
Speaker 2: it at some point. I mean, the Mormon Church literally

400
00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:55,920
Speaker 2: expressly says you should be talking about being Mormon online.

401
00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:59,960
Speaker 2: You're told that explicitly, and so that also is an

402
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:03,680
Speaker 2: element of I think Mormon influencers are louder about their

403
00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:06,879
Speaker 2: religion than a lot of influencers because they are acting

404
00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:09,719
Speaker 2: on that kind of command from the prophet to speak

405
00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:13,000
Speaker 2: loudly and speak often about their religion.

406
00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:17,159
Speaker 3: It seems also because of how the algorithm works at

407
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:19,960
Speaker 3: any given point in time. There have been times where

408
00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:25,960
Speaker 3: I have gotten content pipes to me from a Mormon influencer,

409
00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:30,399
Speaker 3: but the content that I get it's not immediately clear

410
00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:33,960
Speaker 3: where a lot of traadwave accounts that have ended up

411
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:36,000
Speaker 3: in my feed it takes me a little while to

412
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:40,679
Speaker 3: catch on that there is a specific religious element. Is

413
00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:43,200
Speaker 3: that something you've also noticed. Do you feel that there's

414
00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:46,199
Speaker 3: sort of any reasoning behind that, because you're saying, you know,

415
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:48,959
Speaker 3: the church wants you to talk about your religion as

416
00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:52,240
Speaker 3: much as possible, But it feels like with some influencers

417
00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:54,639
Speaker 3: to what end was not always clear to me right away.

418
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:59,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, in my opinion, the prevalence of people who are

419
00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:03,640
Speaker 2: influence is mentioning Mormonism is greatest in their early stages,

420
00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:06,360
Speaker 2: when they're first getting an audience, when they're first kind

421
00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:09,240
Speaker 2: of finding their voice. I think once people reach like

422
00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:12,960
Speaker 2: a critical mass of no longer just having Mormon followers,

423
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:16,080
Speaker 2: they have a lot of just general interest in their platforms.

424
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:19,040
Speaker 2: It's almost like a graph where the bigger they get,

425
00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:22,080
Speaker 2: the less they mentioned Mormonism, because I think they realize

426
00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:25,639
Speaker 2: that it's unpopular to a general audience, but it's very

427
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:28,960
Speaker 2: popular with the audience that you're growing early on. So

428
00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:32,000
Speaker 2: I think that you know, for example, I know Ballerina

429
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:35,480
Speaker 2: Farm used to have a blog specifically about Mormonism, but

430
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:37,880
Speaker 2: if you google is so and so Mormon, you can

431
00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:39,919
Speaker 2: always find an answer because they talked about it a

432
00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:42,439
Speaker 2: lot early on, and there's always like an early interview.

433
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:46,560
Speaker 2: Same with Brooklyn and Bailey. They're not really tradwife stuff anymore,

434
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:49,120
Speaker 2: but they just have a big YouTube channel and they

435
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:52,240
Speaker 2: talked quite a bit about Mormonism early on, and now

436
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:55,480
Speaker 2: it essentially never appears. I think one of them has left,

437
00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:58,639
Speaker 2: I'm not sure. Initially, to grow their audience, they're talking

438
00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:02,480
Speaker 2: a lot about Mormonism because Mormons will follow you because

439
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:05,159
Speaker 2: they know you're Mormon, and then after they get big,

440
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:07,920
Speaker 2: they see it as maybe a bit more of a risk,

441
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:10,879
Speaker 2: or maybe that because they have more money and they're

442
00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:14,160
Speaker 2: like a little bit less beholden to their community, maybe

443
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:16,400
Speaker 2: they're less likely to talk about it because they kind

444
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:18,560
Speaker 2: of can take on their own form of what they

445
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,240
Speaker 2: want to be talking about on the internet. So many Christians,

446
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:23,439
Speaker 2: I think if they see Mormon content and don't know

447
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:25,720
Speaker 2: what's Mormon content, or just like, you know, even tradwife

448
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:29,520
Speaker 2: content obviously appeals to kind of a more far right ideology.

449
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:31,480
Speaker 2: And I think all of those people, if they come

450
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:35,200
Speaker 2: across you know, trad wife content in general, they'll upvote

451
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:37,800
Speaker 2: it or like it or interact with it. The hard

452
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:40,159
Speaker 2: thing for Mormons is that a lot of people, just

453
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:43,720
Speaker 2: especially like evangelical Christians, do not really like Mormons, and

454
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:45,639
Speaker 2: especially they don't like that they're trying to kind of

455
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:48,240
Speaker 2: co opt. Then they would say the Christian movement or

456
00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:50,560
Speaker 2: whatever and say they're Christians, and there's a lot of

457
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,679
Speaker 2: tension between are they Christians, aren't they Christians. So I

458
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:56,280
Speaker 2: think that that's another difficulty that they kind of have

459
00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:59,120
Speaker 2: to interface with, is that their content by its nature

460
00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 2: of being kind of traditionally minded, appeals to this audience

461
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:07,280
Speaker 2: of a more like conservative Republican audience. But if they're

462
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:10,679
Speaker 2: too overt about their specific religion, I think, you know,

463
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:13,359
Speaker 2: if you're viewing it, which I do a little bit

464
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:15,520
Speaker 2: more as kind of like a brand that they're selling

465
00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:18,600
Speaker 2: versus like their quote truth, real life or whatever, then

466
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 2: they are recognizing that there's a risk to the brand

467
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:24,200
Speaker 2: in bringing that to the forefront. Now that a brand

468
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:27,320
Speaker 2: is large enough that it's kind of reaching a mass audience.

469
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:29,400
Speaker 2: But I don't know, like, I don't know if I'm

470
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:32,679
Speaker 2: just jaded or something like if I'm viewing them too

471
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:36,480
Speaker 2: much as like business minded versus if they just, you know,

472
00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:38,680
Speaker 2: if they're just kind of waking up each morning, rolling

473
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:41,040
Speaker 2: out of bed, posting their pictures and not really wondering

474
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:44,200
Speaker 2: about audience retention or who sees what when and how

475
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 2: can I reach the broadest number of people. So it's

476
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:49,600
Speaker 2: hard to get into the mind of these people. Really.

477
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:53,000
Speaker 3: We'll be right back with more with Alissa Grenfell. Maybe

478
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 3: welcome back to sixteenth minute. I sort of had to

479
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:12,159
Speaker 3: wear something like temple garments in my youth, but it

480
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 3: was these shoulder to me stinky cotton shirts I wore

481
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:19,720
Speaker 3: underneath my back brace, and unfortunately, there's no question about

482
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,800
Speaker 3: my personality that can't be answered with the sentence I

483
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:26,480
Speaker 3: wore a back brace for my entire adolescence. And now

484
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:30,200
Speaker 3: we continue our conversation with ex Mormon influencer and great

485
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:35,000
Speaker 3: theory Haver Alyssa Grenfell as I was sort of learning

486
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,200
Speaker 3: more about a recent subject I was covering. I found

487
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:41,040
Speaker 3: that out at the family was Mormon, but didn't really

488
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 3: talk about it, and a lot of people were saying, like, oh,

489
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:45,640
Speaker 3: you should do an episode about like why are there

490
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:49,679
Speaker 3: so many successful Mormon women in the influencing space? And

491
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:53,119
Speaker 3: I was like, oh, I have no idea. And you

492
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 3: mentioned sort of the most popular answer given, which is

493
00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 3: what I was encountering a lot, which is that young

494
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:02,399
Speaker 3: Mormon women are taught to journal a lot. So that's

495
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:07,359
Speaker 3: probably why they're successful at influencing. It doesn't not make sense,

496
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:11,800
Speaker 3: but felt just like a very incomplete answer. Could you

497
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:14,879
Speaker 3: take me through what made you start asking this question?

498
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 3: Because people were telling you that they were getting ads

499
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 3: for the Mormon Church on your content.

500
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:21,800
Speaker 2: That was how that started, right, Yeah, every interview I've

501
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:23,400
Speaker 2: ever spoken to is like why are there so many

502
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:27,120
Speaker 2: Mormon influencers? And I think they often ask it almost

503
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:30,640
Speaker 2: like in this secret, like can you tell me the answer?

504
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:33,960
Speaker 2: Like like I have this secret that I'm keeping and

505
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:36,320
Speaker 2: if I could just explain it, like like then that

506
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 2: would explain the phenomenon. And it's I think it's you know,

507
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 2: I think something like women journal and there was the

508
00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:46,200
Speaker 2: mommy bloggers, and blogging is like journaling, and then once

509
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 2: they're blogging, then they're on Instagram and it feels easy

510
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:52,080
Speaker 2: to understand. But I agree, like it feels kind of

511
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:55,960
Speaker 2: thin because lots of people journal and it doesn't mean

512
00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 2: that you're going to be famous one day just because

513
00:28:58,080 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 2: you were journaling a lot when you were a little kid.

514
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 2: But when I was posting my videos, I you know,

515
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:06,720
Speaker 2: especially initially, I'm still like learning YouTube. I think my

516
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:08,760
Speaker 2: first YouTube video is like ten months ago or something.

517
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 2: I'm still under one year of learning this whole platform

518
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 2: and stuff. But I would have people say, so funny,

519
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 2: I just got a ad for the Mormon Church while

520
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 2: I was watching this video, and I, you know, thinking

521
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:22,920
Speaker 2: it's so funny that they are advertising on my content,

522
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:27,040
Speaker 2: which obviously, if you understand the back end the Mormon

523
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 2: Church purchases ad space through Google Google ad Sense, and

524
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:34,760
Speaker 2: then Google ad Sense looks for content that is relevant

525
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:36,600
Speaker 2: to put the ad on top of. So it's not

526
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:38,800
Speaker 2: like the Mormon Church are saying we like Alyssa Grenfell

527
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 2: definitely not saying that, but the algorithm is basically looking

528
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:46,080
Speaker 2: for people saying Mormon, Mormon, Mormon, or Utah or whatever

529
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:49,200
Speaker 2: and then putting their ad space their ad spend behind

530
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:52,520
Speaker 2: that content. And I also, kind of in tandem with that,

531
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 2: was on the YouTube subreddit and looking at the stuff

532
00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 2: about YouTube and realizing that my and my RPM, which

533
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 2: is kind of how much you make off of your videos,

534
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 2: was way higher than basically almost anyone else was quoting that,

535
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 2: like my average kind of pay per view or pay

536
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 2: per click or whatever was much higher than just kind

537
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 2: of your average channel. I used to do some SEO

538
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:21,360
Speaker 2: for a previous employer, and I went and looked at

539
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:25,880
Speaker 2: the ads spend estimated behind different keywords, because people don't

540
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:28,800
Speaker 2: realize that the AD spend behind something like crafting is

541
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:31,040
Speaker 2: not the same as the AD spend behind something like

542
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:34,800
Speaker 2: open a new credit card, because it's basically the ad

543
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:38,080
Speaker 2: spend is proportionate to how much the advertiser is willing

544
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:41,120
Speaker 2: to spend to get the eyes of the viewer. So

545
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 2: I realized, basically when I went and looked at the

546
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:46,680
Speaker 2: ad spend behind smoothies terms, that the ad spend was

547
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 2: as high as very expensive advertising terms, so like to

548
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 2: open a new credit card was thirty dollars per click,

549
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 2: and something like crafting or maybe like sour dough bread

550
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 2: is like two dollars. It's very low. So when I

551
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 2: looked at Mormon terms like Mormon missionary was thirty dollars

552
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 2: and Utah influencer was nineteen dollars, Mormon was twenty five dollars.

553
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:15,320
Speaker 2: And these are ad spends that are phenomenally high, especially

554
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:18,800
Speaker 2: when compared even with another religion. You know, Catholicism or

555
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 2: catholic is two dollars, Judaism or jew is maybe four dollars.

556
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:27,240
Speaker 3: As someone raised Catholic, I was like, wow, Catholics found

557
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:30,480
Speaker 3: dead in a ditch, like not a profitable, not a

558
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 3: profitable YouTube grip I was. I was truly blown away

559
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 3: with how many times higher those keywords were scanning.

560
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it felt like people don't realize that the

561
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 2: Mormon Church is the richest church on the planet. It's

562
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:48,240
Speaker 2: similar to the net worth of Disney, you know, so,

563
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 2: I mean, which I also have no idea the value

564
00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 2: of Disney. I think it's potentially even worth more than Disney.

565
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 2: So it felt like there has to be some connection

566
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:01,560
Speaker 2: between the high ad spend on these keywords. I'm seeing

567
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 2: it literally in my content. I'm seeing that I'm making

568
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:07,880
Speaker 2: more off of my videos than the average YouTuber, and

569
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:13,360
Speaker 2: then extending that to Utah influencers, which is that when

570
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 2: they're making content, they're making more money, and basically realizing

571
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:21,720
Speaker 2: that because there's more money to be had out in Utah,

572
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 2: that it can just support a far larger number of creators,

573
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:29,120
Speaker 2: especially in that phase of getting off the ground, right

574
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:31,960
Speaker 2: when they're talking about Mormonism the most, right when they're

575
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 2: kind of like, let me try influencing for a bit, right,

576
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:37,400
Speaker 2: you know, before they get the brand sponsorship, before they

577
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,479
Speaker 2: get all the clicks for the commissions on Amazon whatever.

578
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,520
Speaker 2: Like I think I just basically took what was happening

579
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:45,960
Speaker 2: to me and thought, what's happening to me is happening

580
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:50,760
Speaker 2: to all these Utah Mormon influencers. They're being paid the

581
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 2: same amount, Like if a guy is making finance content

582
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 2: about investing in the S and P and they're making

583
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 2: videos about sourdough. Those people are making the same amount

584
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 2: of money, which is how irregular.

585
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 3: I had no idea how much money the Mormon Church has.

586
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:09,240
Speaker 3: As you explained the video, the church is welcome to

587
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 3: pour as much money into these keywords as they like,

588
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:15,120
Speaker 3: but they can't control whether the keywords are being talked

589
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 3: about favorably. So it seems like there's like a world

590
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 3: where the Mormon Church is accidentally cutting you checks for

591
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 3: talking about why.

592
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:26,560
Speaker 2: You let anyone else you know? And I think that

593
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 2: maybe to them it's worth it. I mean, I haven't

594
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 2: seen those comments of I just got an ask for

595
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:34,720
Speaker 2: the Mormon Church. I'm still getting those comments, so I

596
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 2: don't know, Like, I don't think I added them to

597
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 2: the point that they are changing their strategy or anything.

598
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 2: But it is kind of funny to realize that they

599
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:45,640
Speaker 2: are kind of engineering their own crisis by making it

600
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 2: so that it's profitable enough to be a YouTuber talking

601
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:52,200
Speaker 2: about Mormonism, that they are kind of supporting the YouTuber's

602
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 2: little you know, rent payment or whatever. YouTuber can keep

603
00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 2: going and keep making the negative videos, And it's a

604
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:02,680
Speaker 2: very funny little cycle, considering I once paid ten percent

605
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:05,520
Speaker 2: of my income to the church and now I'm slowly

606
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:06,160
Speaker 2: making it back.

607
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:10,520
Speaker 3: Tad wife influencers that started by talking about Mormonism quite

608
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:13,439
Speaker 3: a bit and probably don't talk about it as much now,

609
00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:18,839
Speaker 3: they are also sort of getting cuts of this, even

610
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:22,000
Speaker 3: if they're not explicitly talking about the Mormon Church anymore.

611
00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 3: Do you think even if an influencer who started talking

612
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:29,920
Speaker 3: about Mormonism isn't anymore, does this still help the church.

613
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 2: The most fascinating was that the term the search term

614
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:38,320
Speaker 2: Utah influencer. I think Utah influencer made about nineteen dollars

615
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 2: per click. So if you compare that with New York

616
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 2: City influencer, you know, San Francisco influencer, places where you assume,

617
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:48,040
Speaker 2: you know, that's the influencer capital of the world because

618
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:52,480
Speaker 2: that's especially of the US, those are all under five dollars.

619
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:55,600
Speaker 2: So you know, like I said, it's almost three times

620
00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:58,080
Speaker 2: they're making three times as much. So a woman, a

621
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 2: woman with her kids in New York, her kids in

622
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:03,920
Speaker 2: LA and a woman with her kids in Lehigh, Utah.

623
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:06,799
Speaker 2: The woman in Lehigh, Utah will probably make three times

624
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 2: as much. The ad revenue with the lower cost of

625
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 2: living right, and lower cost of living, and you know,

626
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:16,839
Speaker 2: probably her husband already has a job because he's been

627
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 2: kind of trained to be the bread winner, just like

628
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 2: she's been trained to be the housewife. As far as

629
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:24,400
Speaker 2: the church benefiting from it, I think it definitely does.

630
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:28,640
Speaker 2: I've had people tell me through comments or I've had

631
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 2: some emails of people saying that Ballerina Farm just her

632
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:35,879
Speaker 2: content made them Google. You know, Mormons looking started looking

633
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:38,279
Speaker 2: to the church, considering getting a visit from the missionaries,

634
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:40,920
Speaker 2: consider getting a Book of Mormon. And it's kind of

635
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 2: like a very soft advertisement in my opinion, where it's

636
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:46,399
Speaker 2: not someone coming on and saying I'd like to talk

637
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:48,000
Speaker 2: to you about why you should join them with church.

638
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:52,200
Speaker 2: But when you see a lifestyle presented that's very alluring

639
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:55,080
Speaker 2: and very beautiful, and you think to yourself, what it

640
00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 2: is about this person that made this lifestyle possible, and

641
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:01,040
Speaker 2: you realize they're part of the church. I think it

642
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:05,000
Speaker 2: kind of gives a higher level of influence to potentially

643
00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:07,920
Speaker 2: someone who's curious and wondering what they can do to

644
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:11,080
Speaker 2: kind of live that life that they're seeing fantasized.

645
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 3: Final thing, I mean, I just wanted to mention and

646
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:16,800
Speaker 3: talk a little bit as far as your theory goes,

647
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:20,239
Speaker 3: is that this is a way to sort of have

648
00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:25,600
Speaker 3: these poster board influencers kind of representing, if not the

649
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:29,680
Speaker 3: church explicitly the you know, gender roles and the ideals

650
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:33,360
Speaker 3: of the church and the day to day without having

651
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 3: it be traced back to supposing Ballerina firm, you know,

652
00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:40,279
Speaker 3: wakes up tomorrow and is like, I'm done with the

653
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:42,880
Speaker 3: Mormon Church. It's not like she can say and the

654
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:45,680
Speaker 3: church has been paying me this much for this long

655
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:49,640
Speaker 3: to create this content. It creates this middleman.

656
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:52,719
Speaker 2: The church had a ton of success from Donnie and

657
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:56,000
Speaker 2: Marie Osmond because they're Mormon. They're more you know, the

658
00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:59,359
Speaker 2: raised Mormon, still Mormon to this day, and they were,

659
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 2: you know, nominal brand ambassadors for the church throughout their

660
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:07,360
Speaker 2: kind of heyday. Gladys Knight is also Mormon, and she

661
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:10,960
Speaker 2: did a concert at our ward in Kentucky at our

662
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:14,399
Speaker 2: big Congregation, and she's another example of someone who kind

663
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:16,080
Speaker 2: of became a bit of a brand ambassador. You know,

664
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:19,880
Speaker 2: she's doing concerts and I think pre internet and before

665
00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 2: gay issues, the awareness around LGBTQ issues, those people did

666
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:28,200
Speaker 2: really well, and typically it seems like they mostly stayed

667
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:30,239
Speaker 2: in the church, and so the church had a lot

668
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 2: of success with these famous people being brand ambassadors for them,

669
00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:37,320
Speaker 2: whereas now they've had it I think in more recent

670
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:40,319
Speaker 2: years backfire more often than they've had it work, like

671
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:44,799
Speaker 2: with David Archiletta. So David Archiletta was very well known

672
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:48,280
Speaker 2: within the church. He also gave concerts for the church.

673
00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:51,400
Speaker 2: He served a Mormon mission. You can find a picture

674
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:53,719
Speaker 2: of him in the Mormon Chapter Nacle Choir where they

675
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:57,800
Speaker 2: did his slow zoom on him. And he was another

676
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:01,400
Speaker 2: poster child and another famous person. He's the sweetest you know,

677
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:03,760
Speaker 2: if you've ever heard him in interviews, he's so sweet.

678
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:06,440
Speaker 2: He's like he just has the kindest presence. And so

679
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:08,640
Speaker 2: I think he was kind of the perfect example of

680
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:12,520
Speaker 2: a great Mormon and a great ambassador. And then in

681
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:15,279
Speaker 2: like a few years ago, he came out as gay.

682
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:17,800
Speaker 2: He also kind of simultaneously came out as leaving the

683
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:20,960
Speaker 2: church and now has written a song about you know,

684
00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:23,680
Speaker 2: I'd rather go to health and not love the people

685
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:26,239
Speaker 2: who I love, and in many ways has kind of

686
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:30,120
Speaker 2: been a reverse of all of the kind of quote

687
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:31,840
Speaker 2: good he would have done for the image of the

688
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:36,759
Speaker 2: Mormon Church. Now he's just basically a breathing example of

689
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:40,360
Speaker 2: the church's bigotry towards gay people. Because the church really

690
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:43,440
Speaker 2: tried to up their proximity to his image from a

691
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:47,000
Speaker 2: pr perspective, really hurt them now that they are no

692
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 2: longer able to you know, now they've been damaged by

693
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:52,839
Speaker 2: his coming out against them and saying, hey, this church

694
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:55,879
Speaker 2: is homophobic. So I think that that's another reason they

695
00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:59,719
Speaker 2: don't want to maybe formally approach someone like a Ballerina

696
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:03,440
Speaker 2: farm or any of these chadwife creators, because they know

697
00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:06,720
Speaker 2: it will backfire against them. But they also know that

698
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:09,480
Speaker 2: these women are making the church look very good and

699
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:13,080
Speaker 2: very beautiful and traditional and feminine, and so I think

700
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:16,239
Speaker 2: this advertising revenue is kind of a way for them

701
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:19,520
Speaker 2: to support the blog sphere of the early two thousands

702
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 2: through the Instagrammers and YouTubers of today by giving them

703
00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:25,880
Speaker 2: ad revenue.

704
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:43,480
Speaker 3: We'll be right back with more with Alyssa Grenfell. Welcome

705
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:46,640
Speaker 3: back to sixteenth minute, and now we continue our conversation

706
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:47,840
Speaker 3: with Alyssa Grenfell.

707
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:51,120
Speaker 2: You know, when you're a YouTuber or when you get

708
00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:54,320
Speaker 2: ad revenue from any social media platform, it just tells

709
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:58,560
Speaker 2: you the amount, and it tells you basically your cost perview,

710
00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:02,040
Speaker 2: and that's it just says advertisers were willing to pay,

711
00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:04,640
Speaker 2: and it's like a black box. They're not telling you,

712
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 2: like which this percentage came from this organization, this percentage

713
00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:10,800
Speaker 2: came from this organization. So it's like a black box

714
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 2: in that you can't you don't even know. So the

715
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:15,759
Speaker 2: women can just make their content and look up in

716
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 2: the morning and be like, look, babe, like, look at

717
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:20,560
Speaker 2: this money I made. I'll make more content tomorrow. I'm

718
00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:24,080
Speaker 2: going to tell my friends. They won't necessarily see through

719
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:26,640
Speaker 2: kind of read the tea leaves of why am I

720
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:29,040
Speaker 2: making this much? I don't know if any of them

721
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:32,279
Speaker 2: are doing that, and maybe they are, and I'm just

722
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:34,319
Speaker 2: kind of one of the first they've talked about it.

723
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:38,279
Speaker 3: There's no one answer that's going to completely unlock why

724
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:40,640
Speaker 3: are there so many successful trad wife accounts at this

725
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:45,000
Speaker 3: specific moment. That answer ranges, you know, far beyond Mormonism.

726
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:47,440
Speaker 3: But I think your content has just helped me have

727
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:51,600
Speaker 3: a better sense of not just you and the culture

728
00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:54,239
Speaker 3: that you had to leave behind, but also who is

729
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:57,799
Speaker 3: shaping the Internet. And it seems like the Mormon Church

730
00:40:57,840 --> 00:40:59,000
Speaker 3: has no small part.

731
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:02,600
Speaker 2: In And it's so funny because when you say it

732
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:05,560
Speaker 2: like that, it sounds so kind of conspiratorial. It sounds,

733
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:08,840
Speaker 2: you know, the Mormons they're controlling the Internet. But it

734
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:12,760
Speaker 2: is funny because it I think to some extent it's true.

735
00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:15,480
Speaker 2: I mean, not that they are literally holding the mouse

736
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:19,880
Speaker 2: and clicking the clicks, but in that they are exercising

737
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:23,759
Speaker 2: I think a pretty broad ad spend, the way that

738
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:27,040
Speaker 2: they are actively petitioning members to go on and share,

739
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 2: share the Gospel, share talks, share resources about the church,

740
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:33,319
Speaker 2: and so I think that they do have like a

741
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:38,440
Speaker 2: fairly coordinated pr effort for the Internet specifically. Even one

742
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:40,879
Speaker 2: thing I didn't mention in that video is they have

743
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:43,160
Speaker 2: all these people who are hired to do SEO. And

744
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:46,920
Speaker 2: if you google something like Bible, the Mormon Church has

745
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:49,200
Speaker 2: like their their free Bible is one of the first

746
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:52,960
Speaker 2: organic things you see on Google is for to depress

747
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:55,040
Speaker 2: about today. Say it's same with I think Jesus Christ,

748
00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:58,520
Speaker 2: same with New Testament. You know, all of these terms

749
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 2: that are kind of general Christian terms. The Mormon Church

750
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:05,240
Speaker 2: has one of the top organic rankings for those searches,

751
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:08,319
Speaker 2: which is very purposeful and specific, you know, and that

752
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:11,479
Speaker 2: their attempt to kind of say, hey, if someone wants

753
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:13,680
Speaker 2: a Bible, we want to be the ones giving it

754
00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:16,600
Speaker 2: to them. So I think that they do. You know,

755
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:20,239
Speaker 2: it's not just conspiratorial. They have what I view to

756
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:24,640
Speaker 2: be like a very specific, targeted plan for how to

757
00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:28,400
Speaker 2: get people on the Internet interested in Mormonism. And it's multifaceted,

758
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:31,399
Speaker 2: and they have whole departments hired for this kind of thing.

759
00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:34,440
Speaker 3: It just seems like the Mormon Church has adapted to

760
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:37,560
Speaker 3: the Internet age unusually well.

761
00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:41,120
Speaker 2: I think they definitely viewed it as a great opportunity,

762
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:44,080
Speaker 2: and I think they've also viewed it. You know. People

763
00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:46,120
Speaker 2: will also talk about how the Mormon Church will kind

764
00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:49,520
Speaker 2: of spam the front page of Google so that ex

765
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:54,400
Speaker 2: Mormon stuff gets further and further down. So they'll, you know,

766
00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:57,040
Speaker 2: instead of just having one article on a subject, they'll

767
00:42:57,040 --> 00:42:59,200
Speaker 2: have like ten articles on a subject, and they'll try

768
00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:01,399
Speaker 2: to get them all to rank so that the whole

769
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:07,799
Speaker 2: front page of Google is just faithful responses to questions

770
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:11,040
Speaker 2: about the origins of the church. They even put out

771
00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:13,360
Speaker 2: all these essays that are about the history of the

772
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:17,120
Speaker 2: church so that they can kind of counter the anti

773
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:18,160
Speaker 2: Mormon literature.

774
00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:21,200
Speaker 3: Is there anything I didn't ask that you feel like

775
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:23,120
Speaker 3: is relevant to this discussion?

776
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:27,600
Speaker 2: Sometimes I struggle with, you know, when I talk about

777
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:31,080
Speaker 2: tradwife things, I feel like people really want kind of

778
00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:35,160
Speaker 2: a silver bullet answer. And I also think that I

779
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:38,600
Speaker 2: struggle sometimes with it's not a demonization of something like

780
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:42,680
Speaker 2: a tradwife, but it's maybe the critique because I often

781
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:47,080
Speaker 2: feel like tradwives didn't invent motherhood. Tradwives didn't invent being

782
00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 2: a wife, or like being in a loving relationship in partnership,

783
00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:54,800
Speaker 2: and so sometimes have a I struggle with the nuance

784
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:59,920
Speaker 2: of critiquing something that is genuinely human and genuinely not

785
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:03,279
Speaker 2: like I think demonizing motherhood is not something we want

786
00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:06,560
Speaker 2: to do, Demonizing being a loving partner is not something

787
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:09,400
Speaker 2: we want to do, But we want to critique the

788
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:13,279
Speaker 2: approach that these accounts are kind of sharing. And so

789
00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:17,160
Speaker 2: in the critique sometimes there's a demonization that I think

790
00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:19,480
Speaker 2: is kind of dangerous and not good for families or

791
00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:23,440
Speaker 2: children specifically. So I think just a final infusion of

792
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:27,000
Speaker 2: nuance is what I is. The final thing I'd want

793
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 2: to leave is just that it's not something that's quite

794
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:33,680
Speaker 2: as straightforward as saying Mormon women like to journal. It's

795
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:37,640
Speaker 2: very complicated. It's about the Internet, but it's also about conservatism,

796
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:40,839
Speaker 2: and it's about ro versus Wade, and it's about all

797
00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:42,840
Speaker 2: of these different cultural forces.

798
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:46,160
Speaker 3: People should be allowed to live their lives comfortably however

799
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:49,360
Speaker 3: they choose to, and so it's just like, let's not

800
00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:52,560
Speaker 3: go after a specific woman, Let's go after maybe the

801
00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:54,640
Speaker 3: system that you can trace it back up to, which

802
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:57,600
Speaker 3: seems like a lot of what your work is trying

803
00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:01,360
Speaker 3: to do is interrogate the system that and not you

804
00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:03,680
Speaker 3: bully the byproducts of the system.

805
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:06,799
Speaker 2: That's kind of why I always say I'm anti Mormonism,

806
00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:09,920
Speaker 2: but I'm not anti Mormon because I think people can

807
00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:12,680
Speaker 2: still be criticized, obviously, but I think that in a

808
00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:16,279
Speaker 2: more broad sense, the systems and the organizations and the

809
00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:21,280
Speaker 2: dogmas are what are forming human behavior. And so instead

810
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:23,920
Speaker 2: of saying this one person sucks because of this X

811
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:28,400
Speaker 2: y Z, it's better and more helpful, I think, more informative,

812
00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:32,120
Speaker 2: more educational to say this is the system that made

813
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:34,120
Speaker 2: this phenomenon exist to begin with.

814
00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:37,800
Speaker 3: Thanks so much again to Alyssa for her time and patience.

815
00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:40,719
Speaker 3: I really recommend her YouTube channel if you have any

816
00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:43,239
Speaker 3: further questions about what it's like to grow up in

817
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:46,399
Speaker 3: the Mormon faith, what it's like to decondition oneself from

818
00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:49,960
Speaker 3: a cult like upbringing, as well as some interesting interviews

819
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:52,640
Speaker 3: with fellow ex Mormons. You can also check out her

820
00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 3: book at the link in the description. So listeners to conclude,

821
00:45:56,360 --> 00:45:59,480
Speaker 3: why are there so many successful Mormon wives and the

822
00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:05,000
Speaker 3: influence space today? The answer is money. Okay, see you

823
00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:08,799
Speaker 3: next week. In all seriousness, thank you so much again

824
00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:11,480
Speaker 3: for listening. Please remember to subscribe to the show. If

825
00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:14,040
Speaker 3: you like it, leave a friendly review, tell your friends.

826
00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:15,920
Speaker 3: It all helps. I had a lot of fun making

827
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:18,560
Speaker 3: this episode. I learned a lot and it was really hard.

828
00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:20,560
Speaker 3: So please let me know your thoughts and for your

829
00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:23,279
Speaker 3: moment of fun or I guess more of a moment

830
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:26,799
Speaker 3: of reflection. This week, here is former American Idol contestant

831
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:30,000
Speaker 3: David Argiletta talking about why he left the Mormon Church.

832
00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:31,319
Speaker 3: See you next week.

833
00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:33,880
Speaker 1: One day I was just praying. I got on my

834
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:36,239
Speaker 1: knees and I said, God, if you're really there, and

835
00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:38,400
Speaker 1: if you really have a purpose for me, just please

836
00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:41,839
Speaker 1: take this from me. Please change, because I don't want

837
00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:44,000
Speaker 1: to be a wish and I don't want to be

838
00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:46,680
Speaker 1: like this, and I don't know why I am, and

839
00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:50,840
Speaker 1: I just basically heard what I understood is what was

840
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:55,040
Speaker 1: always God told me. David, you need to stop asking

841
00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:59,239
Speaker 1: me this. You're asking me the wrong thing because I

842
00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:01,600
Speaker 1: don't intend to change, and you've been spending over half

843
00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:03,799
Speaker 1: of your life now praying about this, asking me to

844
00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:06,879
Speaker 1: change something that I don't intend to change.

845
00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:13,560
Speaker 3: Sixteenth Minute is a production of fool Zone Media and

846
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:16,480
Speaker 3: iHeart Radios. It is written, hosted, and.

847
00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:20,080
Speaker 4: Produced by me Jamie Lostus. Our executive producers are Sophie

848
00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:23,080
Speaker 4: Lichtman and Robert Evans The maasi Ian Johnson.

849
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:27,000
Speaker 3: It is our supervising producer and our editor. Our theme

850
00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:29,959
Speaker 3: song is by Sad thirteen and Pet.

851
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:32,879
Speaker 4: Shout outs to our dog producer Anderson my Kat's Flee

852
00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:35,719
Speaker 4: and Casper and by Pet Rothbert who will outlive us

853
00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:39,360
Speaker 4: all Bye