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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson.

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Speaker 2: I'm a journalist who's spent the last twenty five years

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Speaker 2: writing about true crime.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 3: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 2: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 2: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 3: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 3: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 2: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 2: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 3: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is Buried Bones.

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Speaker 3: A Kate, I guess we have a second part to

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Speaker 3: a two parter today we do.

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Speaker 2: We have a kidnapping of a young girl, seventeen year

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Speaker 2: old named Leslie Whittle, and she is from a village

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Speaker 2: in West Midlands of England, and she is from a

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Speaker 2: very wealthy family. Somebody has come into her home she

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Speaker 2: shares with her mother. She has an adult brother who

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Speaker 2: lives not far away, but it's just the two of

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Speaker 2: them in a house that you and I talked about

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Speaker 2: being sort of visibly exposed to people because it's sort

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Speaker 2: of walls of glass almost the second floor, so she's

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Speaker 2: been taken. It looks like just wearing a robe and

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Speaker 2: her slippers, and if she was wearing pajamas, and the

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Speaker 2: police have not seen her. The kidnapper or kidnappers have

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Speaker 2: left behind notes, odd notes.

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Speaker 1: Using a label maker, which is an interesting choice.

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Speaker 2: They are confusing instructions and her brother can figure it out,

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Speaker 2: and they keep missing each other and this is not working,

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Speaker 2: and there are cassettes that are being played over the

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Speaker 2: phone of Leslie's voice. There is a guard who was

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Speaker 2: shot by it sounds like our prime suspect here, a

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Speaker 2: man they've dubbed the Black Panther because they were able

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Speaker 2: to use some ballistics in some fingerprinting to connect this man,

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Speaker 2: this violent robber, with the shooting of the security guard

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Speaker 2: and with the murders of four postal workers the year

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Speaker 2: before to Leslie's kidnapping. Because in this guy's car they

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Speaker 2: find items of hers, as well as the tape recorder

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Speaker 2: and cassette tapes that have some instructions that were just

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Speaker 2: never delivered. And the police are kind of at a

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Speaker 2: dead end. They don't know what to do next. They

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Speaker 2: haven't done such a hot job it sounds like they

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Speaker 2: were at a location where Leslie could have been kept,

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Speaker 2: and they did sort of a discreete sweep.

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Speaker 1: They said.

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Speaker 2: But other than that, they have not hear from Leslie

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Speaker 2: for it looks like almost two weeks. And then when

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Speaker 2: they find out about this Black Panther, this you know

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Speaker 2: man who they've dubbed the Black Panther for killing all

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Speaker 2: of these people and being very sneaky, then it starts

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Speaker 2: to be very concerning. And you said you were very

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Speaker 2: concerned at the end of episode one about Leslie.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, this Black Panther has shown a proclivity

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Speaker 3: to utilize violence. You know, he's killed four postal workers.

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Speaker 3: He shot at a security guard six times, I'm sure

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Speaker 3: with the intent to kill, as well as now he's

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Speaker 3: got possession of seventeen year old Leslie. This is a

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Speaker 3: very serious offender that is capable of committing homicides. So

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Speaker 3: now in my mind, Leslie's safety is in question. And

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Speaker 3: I'm not even convinced at this point that he kept

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Speaker 3: Leslie alive at all. You know, he pre planned these crimes,

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Speaker 3: He thought ahead, had her record multiple planes on the

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Speaker 3: cassette player. He may have decided, you know, during his

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Speaker 3: planning process. Trying to keep her alive was just logistically cumbersome,

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Speaker 3: and he would be more successful being able to move

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Speaker 3: around and hopefully get the money he wants without Leslie

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Speaker 3: being drug along.

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Speaker 2: And one of the things that we've seen in previous

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Speaker 2: cases where it seems like the kidnapping victims, the ransom

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Speaker 2: victims have been kept alive, is how upsetting it is

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Speaker 2: to find that out that they've been kept alive. There

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Speaker 2: could have been a chance that they were not murdered,

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Speaker 2: that they were reunited with their families. But getting the

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Speaker 2: media or getting the police involved, well meaning citizens just

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Speaker 2: MUCKs up everything. On the other hand, I'm certainly not

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Speaker 2: advocating for not getting police involved in these situations. But

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Speaker 2: this is the kidnapper who has shown in the past

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Speaker 2: to have the most violent tendencies, right the robberies and

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Speaker 2: with Gerald, and like you said, right, he's willing to

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Speaker 2: use a weapon. I'm not one hundred percent sure we

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Speaker 2: I've seen that in any of our previous cases. They

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Speaker 2: felt in a little like haphazard some of those kidnappings.

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Speaker 2: But this guy, you're right, sounds very serious. Do you

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Speaker 2: have anything to add before I tell you what happens next.

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Speaker 3: I'm sure you don't know this. I'm kind of curious

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Speaker 3: what the black panthers, you know, with the postal workers

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Speaker 3: that he killed, he left some alive, you know, did

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Speaker 3: he make any statements to them about what he was after,

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Speaker 3: et cetera.

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Speaker 2: Three murders occurred in nineteen seventy four of the year before,

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Speaker 2: involved violent robberies of post offices in different locations across

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Speaker 2: the country. So there were three of them and all

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Speaker 2: three men ended up dead.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So black Panther is going into a post office

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Speaker 3: and killing a postal worker inside the.

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Speaker 1: Office, That's what it sounds like, right, Okay.

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Speaker 3: And then he is he is touching surfaces during this

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Speaker 3: process maybe you know, part of the theft aspect where

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Speaker 3: he doesn't have gloved hands on, which is interesting, you

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Speaker 3: know during this timeframe usually say usually, but you know,

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Speaker 3: of course, that's the one form of evidence back in

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Speaker 3: the seventies that could be used to identify him, you know.

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Speaker 3: So there's a little bit of carelessness on his part

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Speaker 3: in these post office robbery homicides. And then now he

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Speaker 3: shoots the security guard, leaves the car abandoned. The shooting

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Speaker 3: of the security guard, I wonder if Leslie was in

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Speaker 3: the car at the time, you know, or he had

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Speaker 3: put Leslie somewhere and was just concerned that the security

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Speaker 3: guard would connect him to either the robbery homicides or

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Speaker 3: the abduction of Leslie. You know. But obviously he's he's

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Speaker 3: willing to pull the trigger for self preservation.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, let me remind you what they found inside this

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Speaker 2: car eight days after this happened. There's the gun that

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Speaker 2: he used to shoot Gerald. There's a box of bullets.

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Speaker 2: There's a foam mattress, a flashlight, Leslie slippers, several unused

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Speaker 2: Dimo labels, a tape recorder in those cassettes that we

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Speaker 2: talked about, So, like everything tying him to Leslie is there.

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Speaker 2: They use these bullets. Now, the BBC only says they

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Speaker 2: used the bullets found in the car to link him

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Speaker 2: to the other murders, these postal worker murders. To me,

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Speaker 2: that didn't I was trying to channel you. That didn't

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Speaker 2: make sense. I wonder if they meant that they used

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Speaker 2: the gun with the bullets to be able to match it,

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Speaker 2: because wouldn't that the bullets would be kind of useless

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Speaker 2: if it's just a standard gun, right, they'd have to

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Speaker 2: fire it through the bullet through the gun to match

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Speaker 2: it to bullets found inside the postal workers.

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Speaker 3: Right, right, So the gun and we don't know what

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Speaker 3: type of gun, if it's a semi auto or revolver.

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Speaker 3: But let's just I'm going to make an assumption. Let's

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Speaker 3: say all they did is recover bullets from the post

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Speaker 3: office crime scenes. You know, as that bullet passes down

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Speaker 3: the barrel of the gun, you know, the lands and

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Speaker 3: grooves of the rifling of that barrel get him in

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Speaker 3: essence impressed on the side of the bullets. And then

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Speaker 3: there's very microscopic striations that end up also on the

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Speaker 3: side of the bullet, that is to the kind of

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Speaker 3: the tool marks that that inside of the barrel of

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Speaker 3: the firearm leaves on the bullet. And so, now that

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Speaker 3: they've recovered the gun out of this vehicle, they test

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Speaker 3: fire that gun and then compare the marks on those

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Speaker 3: test fired bullets to the marks on the evidence bullets,

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Speaker 3: and they're able to draw a conclusion, yes, this gun

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Speaker 3: fired the bullets and these robbery homicides at the post offices.

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Speaker 1: Well there you go.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think that they feel like there's pretty

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Speaker 2: definitive proof, and they're desperate to figure out where he

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Speaker 2: is and where Leslie is, and her mother and her

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Speaker 2: brother are petrified of all of this. As I had

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Speaker 2: said before, now we are fast forwarding fifty one days

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Speaker 2: after Leslie was discovered missing. They launch finally a very

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Speaker 2: extensive search of Bathpool Park. And now I can show

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Speaker 2: you a photo in a second, so you can actually

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Speaker 2: see what this place looks like. The reason they do

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Speaker 2: it is because some school boys find a flashlight as

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Speaker 2: well as a Dimo label that says drop suitcase into hole.

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Speaker 2: So they found an old instruction. I mean, this must

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Speaker 2: have been what he was talking about, Torch Lane and

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Speaker 2: all of the weird torch So you can see the

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Speaker 2: next instructions he says drop suitcase into hole. And of course,

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Speaker 2: because it's fifty one days later, the police just throw

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Speaker 2: out subtlety and decide they're going to do a full

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Speaker 2: on search. But this is the reason why they go

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Speaker 2: back to this park. I mean, this place, it's foggy

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Speaker 2: and it's yeah.

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Speaker 3: Now this photo, you know, speaks volumes. First, I'm not

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Speaker 3: seeing any residential structures, commercial structures. It literally looks like

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Speaker 3: somewhat rolling hills with groves of trees that are lacking

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Speaker 3: their leaves. And in the foreground. Now you see all

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Speaker 3: these men with all of them look like German shepherds.

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Speaker 1: Yep, I'm sure do.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there's no variety in the breed. No, no bloodhounds here,

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Speaker 3: you know, and obviously they're they're searching. And this is

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Speaker 3: you know what after fifty one days after Leslie was abducted.

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Speaker 3: You know that is not sounding good for Leslie at all.

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Speaker 1: No, and no word from the kidnappers at this point.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we don't know about Leslie yet, but you know,

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Speaker 2: we don't have anybody who can identify the man who

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Speaker 2: sounds to be definitively the Black Panther because the three

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Speaker 2: poster workers are dead. No one else could identify him

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Speaker 2: except the security guard, Gerald Smith. He's in critical condition,

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Speaker 2: but he gave a very detailed description of the attacker.

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Speaker 2: And they made a sketch, and we love a good sketch,

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Speaker 2: So let me go ahead and show you. They send

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Speaker 2: this out to the press. Let me show you the

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Speaker 2: sketch and you could tell me from one of the

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Speaker 2: quality if you like the quality of the sketch, and

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Speaker 2: two you know what parts of it would be helpful

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Speaker 2: he looks very menacing.

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Speaker 3: This guy.

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Speaker 2: Oh wow, that's the guy who was prowling around the

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Speaker 2: rail yard.

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Speaker 3: Okay, so the security guard confronts him outside of the vehicle.

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Speaker 3: That would explain some of the lack of maybe firearms

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Speaker 3: damage to the vehicle from shots being fired out of it.

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Speaker 3: You know. First up, you know, I'm looking at a

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Speaker 3: sketch of a man that the sketch is from knee

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Speaker 3: height all the way up to the top of his head.

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Speaker 3: So the security guard saw this man standing in front

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Speaker 3: of him. The first thing that stands out is the clothing,

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Speaker 3: whereas this man appears to have something akin to I'd

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Speaker 3: call it like maybe a car coat or a half

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Speaker 3: trench coat. I'm not sure if that's the correct term,

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Speaker 3: but you know, this type of it looks sort of

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Speaker 3: like a trench coat, but instead of going down to

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Speaker 3: the ankles, it cuts off at the knees. Appears to

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Speaker 3: be maybe zipped up or buttoned up. But then there's

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Speaker 3: a belt around the waist that's holding the coat closed.

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Speaker 3: And then what appears to possibly be a t shirt

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Speaker 3: of some type or shirt underneath this coat. But then

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Speaker 3: he's got a backpack on, and he's got a bag

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Speaker 3: in his left hand, you know. So you know that

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Speaker 3: in part I never see the composites like this. You know,

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Speaker 3: that's really detailed in terms of the clothing and the

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Speaker 3: backpack and the bag that he's holding. But the face,

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Speaker 3: there's a lot of detail in this face. You know, first,

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Speaker 3: this is a very good artist just in terms of

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Speaker 3: the ability to sketch, because this is close to photo realistic,

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Speaker 3: not really photo level, but in terms of when I

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Speaker 3: look at this face, I see a human face that

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Speaker 3: is something that I could envision in the real world.

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Speaker 3: You know. Oftentimes there's some composites and you're going, well,

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Speaker 3: you know, proportions aren't quite right, but you know, the

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Speaker 3: composite is trying to convey the distinguishing features. The man's

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Speaker 3: eyes stand out. He's obviously got somewhat of a scowl

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Speaker 3: and an angry look with kind of a firm set jaw,

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Speaker 3: you know, and of course he's being confronted by a

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Speaker 3: security guard, so this is kind of the you know

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Speaker 3: what the facial expression would probably be accurate too, is

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Speaker 3: he's not happy that a security guard is standing in

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Speaker 3: front of him. You know. So this, yeah, this is

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Speaker 3: a very interesting composite, and I can't speak to the

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Speaker 3: accuracy of it right now until we know who this

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Speaker 3: guy is and can look at the actual face of

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Speaker 3: this guy side by side. But you know, this is

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Speaker 3: something most certainly you'd want to put out to the

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Speaker 3: public because it is so detailed.

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Speaker 2: So Gerald is helpful from you know, his hospital room.

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Speaker 2: He gives us this really good sketch, you know, really

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Speaker 2: good description. Okay, so now we need to go back

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Speaker 2: to the park. So we are at Bathpool Park. They

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Speaker 2: are doing a search because they found a flashlight and

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Speaker 2: they lay that says drop suitcase into hole. So this

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Speaker 2: is March sixth. The next day they have zeroed in on.

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Speaker 2: Now this just sounds like a nightmare to me to search.

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Speaker 2: There is an extensive drain and tunnel system underneath the park.

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Speaker 2: There are various levels and platforms with this thing going

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Speaker 2: totally underneath the park. They think that this would have

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Speaker 2: been the best spot for a kidnapper as both a

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Speaker 2: hiding place and a potential escape route should he need

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Speaker 2: it out of the park because there are all these

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Speaker 2: different exits and entrances and stuff that people just don't

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Speaker 2: know about. So what do you think about that? I mean,

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Speaker 2: this just sounds like the beginning of a bad horror film. You're,

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Speaker 2: you know, sending some police officers down underground to try

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Speaker 2: to find this girl who might still be alive a kidnapper.

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Speaker 2: There could be a whole team of kidnappers down there,

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Speaker 2: and they have to go through this extensive tunnel system.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that would be a process. You know, anytime you search,

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Speaker 3: you need to track where you've searched. And when you

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Speaker 3: have tunnels like this, I could see we're just trying

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Speaker 3: to stay on top of well what has been searched

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Speaker 3: and what hasn't been searched could be problematic.

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Speaker 2: Well, let me give you They did a mock up

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Speaker 2: of some of the tunnels where they think that this

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Speaker 2: might have happened.

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Speaker 1: So I'm going to show you that real quick. So

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Speaker 1: this is there. Now.

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Speaker 2: I don't even know what this is made of, but

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Speaker 2: this is their rendition of this section of the tunnels.

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Speaker 2: I don't know what the material is. I don't understand it.

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Speaker 2: I just see a series of tunnels along with you know,

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Speaker 2: like ways to climb down ladders and stuff.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it looks very complicated.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So I'm looking at you know, this photo, which

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Speaker 3: is a it looks like the cross section of part

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Speaker 3: of you know, this bathpool park, and so most of

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Speaker 3: what I'm looking at it took me a while from

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Speaker 3: my eyes to adjust. But in essence, they've used some

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Speaker 3: sort of for lack of a better term, like a

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Speaker 3: clay to represent the earth, and then they've got cross

284
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Speaker 3: sections of pipes to illustrate the tunnels. At the right side,

285
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Speaker 3: they have a very tall vertical tunnel if you will,

286
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Speaker 3: that shows rungs that somebody would have to use to

287
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Speaker 3: climb down into or up out of this vertical section

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Speaker 3: of I would say maybe a pipe to get to

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Speaker 3: the surface. Then there's a long horizontal area with two

290
00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:33,280
Speaker 3: other vertical connections to the surface. Neither one have the

291
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Speaker 3: man ladder built within them. One to the furthest left,

292
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Speaker 3: which is the shortest one, has some sort of cage

293
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Speaker 3: on top of it. I think what strikes me is

294
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Speaker 3: the diagonal part of the tunnel that's on the right

295
00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:51,040
Speaker 3: hand side of the image that kind of dives from

296
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Speaker 3: the long horizontal tunnel. It dives diagonally to underneath the

297
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Speaker 3: vertical pipe that has the man That diagonal aspect tends

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Speaker 3: to suggest that this tunnel system may be more for waterflow,

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Speaker 3: you know, plumbing aspects, drainage aspects of the park. At

300
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Speaker 3: this point, we don't know if the offender actually used

301
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Speaker 3: this tunnel system. But if he did use this tunnel system,

302
00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:21,320
Speaker 3: how does he know about it? You know, that's something

303
00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:24,920
Speaker 3: that I'd be wanting to know once we identify the offender.

304
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Speaker 3: Does he have a connection to this park? Did he

305
00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:29,520
Speaker 3: have a connection to this tunnel system? And then that's

306
00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:32,280
Speaker 3: why he knew about it? Yeah, But to hole up

307
00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:36,399
Speaker 3: inside of this system, this looks like it's going down

308
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Speaker 3: probably I don't know, twelve fourteen feet for that first

309
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Speaker 3: horizontal long section, and then goes even deeper than that,

310
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Speaker 3: you know, into I'm assuming it's some sort of drainage system.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I can give you some more information to It's

312
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Speaker 2: just a daunting to look at something like this and

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Speaker 2: to think this is, you know, potentially where this young

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Speaker 2: girl could be. And it's fifty one days now, fifty

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Speaker 2: two days. Okay, So he sends an officer into the

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Speaker 2: system's main shaft. So I don't know who pulled the

317
00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:10,679
Speaker 2: short straw on that one, but this guy.

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Speaker 3: God, that's what we called the rookie job.

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Speaker 2: ECLA, listen to this. This is what petrified me. He

320
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Speaker 2: climbs down a sixty foot ladder carrying a flashlight and

321
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Speaker 2: takes notes of what he sees, because you got to know,

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Speaker 2: there's no like, there's no lighting system. There are pins

323
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Speaker 2: and batteries. There's a notepad, so they're right, somebody's been

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Speaker 2: down here. And down on the platform there's a sleeping bed,

325
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Speaker 2: a foam mattress, and a tape recorder. And there's a

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Speaker 2: blue robe hanging off a beam that looks like the

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Speaker 2: one missing from Leslie's room.

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Speaker 3: Oh well, okay.

329
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Speaker 2: He also finds some wire on the platform. So let

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Speaker 2: me show you a photo of this kind of hodgepodge

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Speaker 2: of things. Well, first of all, let me show you

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Speaker 2: the man meet with this poor guy. Let me show

333
00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:01,640
Speaker 2: you what he had to climb down first. So this

334
00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:04,879
Speaker 2: is a man hole that this officer had to go down.

335
00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:07,600
Speaker 2: I mean, this is not a lot of room to maneuver.

336
00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:12,040
Speaker 3: No. In essence, this is a photo that anybody listening

337
00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:14,919
Speaker 3: is going to be familiar, like with the kind of

338
00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:18,160
Speaker 3: the man covers to the sewer systems and the mill streets.

339
00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:22,280
Speaker 3: This is similar, except it's square, not much bigger. It

340
00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:25,679
Speaker 3: looks like it's maybe two feet by two feet, you know.

341
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Speaker 3: So I don't know what the size of the shaft is,

342
00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:32,920
Speaker 3: but obviously it's a narrow opening that the officer would

343
00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:36,800
Speaker 3: have had to go through. Looks like they've tented over this.

344
00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:41,600
Speaker 3: So and then you have this plain closed detective with

345
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Speaker 3: a couple of uniform bobbies, you know in the photograph,

346
00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:49,359
Speaker 3: and the detective is opening up this cover. You know,

347
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Speaker 3: I think when you said that this officer had to

348
00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:57,000
Speaker 3: descend sixty feet down this shaft, we obviously the mockup

349
00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:01,440
Speaker 3: that I was describing earlier is not to scale. Sixty

350
00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:04,679
Speaker 3: feet is much deeper than what I would have imagined.

351
00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:07,399
Speaker 3: And now this is getting to where this is so

352
00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:10,840
Speaker 3: dangerous to anybody entering in that not only just from

353
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Speaker 3: a fall perspective, but from oxygen oxygen deprivation literally is

354
00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:18,720
Speaker 3: what we would call a confined space. You have to

355
00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:21,960
Speaker 3: be specially trained to go down into something like that.

356
00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:26,000
Speaker 3: In this day and age, OSHA monitors this big time.

357
00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:29,040
Speaker 3: Your vitals need to be monitored. They have to pump

358
00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:32,200
Speaker 3: oxygen down into something that deep. Potentially, it just all

359
00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:35,639
Speaker 3: depends on the circumstances. You know. I've had to go

360
00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:40,720
Speaker 3: underground typically for drug lab scenarios, and I have has

361
00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:45,000
Speaker 3: MATT specialists standing by keeping track of the environment in

362
00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:49,400
Speaker 3: me going down into this space, that's say, taking leslie

363
00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:53,240
Speaker 3: down that deep. You know. One of my concerns is

364
00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:56,840
Speaker 3: is that, well, what is the environment down there just

365
00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:02,000
Speaker 3: to sustain life, let alone to be able to see, Yeah,

366
00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:04,440
Speaker 3: this would be a very scary scenario.

367
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Speaker 2: Well, now let me show you the things. So her

368
00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:09,800
Speaker 2: bathrobe looks like sleeping bag.

369
00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:13,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's a so you know, this photograph is showing,

370
00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:15,480
Speaker 3: you know, on the left hand side what appears to

371
00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:18,360
Speaker 3: be a sleeping bag. Right in the middle is this

372
00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:22,879
Speaker 3: foam pad that has coils of what appear to be

373
00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:27,359
Speaker 3: metal wire. To the right of the pad appears to

374
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Speaker 3: be the robe, and then right to the top of that,

375
00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:32,520
Speaker 3: which robe is somewhat on top of, appears to be

376
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Speaker 3: a second sleeping bag.

377
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Speaker 2: They're disgusting. I mean, I don't know why I think

378
00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:40,480
Speaker 2: that's a big deal, but it's filthy. They're filthy down there.

379
00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:41,080
Speaker 1: You know.

380
00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:44,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, everything looks well, the sleeping bags I can't tell

381
00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:49,400
Speaker 3: as much, but the robe and this foam pad very soiled.

382
00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:53,639
Speaker 3: Is the soiling due to having you know, gone down

383
00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:58,040
Speaker 3: into this environment is a soiling because you've got maybe

384
00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:02,199
Speaker 3: a body that's decomposing. You know what did it smell like?

385
00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:06,560
Speaker 3: You know? So I would have questions. But that type

386
00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:09,640
Speaker 3: of cord, you know, this is if that's what I'm

387
00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:12,320
Speaker 3: seeing and that's this metal cord, and if it's being

388
00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:17,119
Speaker 3: used to control Leslie, this is a type of material

389
00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:21,479
Speaker 3: that would cut into her skin if it's tied tightly

390
00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,680
Speaker 3: or if she's fighting against it. This would not be

391
00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:28,960
Speaker 3: This isn't you know, soft binding material for comfort. This

392
00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:31,720
Speaker 3: is like almost like the worst type of material you

393
00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:35,159
Speaker 3: would use to keep somebody under control because it'd be

394
00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:36,000
Speaker 3: so painful.

395
00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:38,240
Speaker 2: Let me show you a close up because I do

396
00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:40,200
Speaker 2: want to emphasize that. Let me show you a close

397
00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:43,080
Speaker 2: up of this is the wire, the circular wire that

398
00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:45,360
Speaker 2: you saw that could have been used to control her.

399
00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:47,600
Speaker 2: It's like a braided metal braided wire.

400
00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:50,800
Speaker 3: So yes, so this man is holding up it's just

401
00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:53,840
Speaker 3: a loop of this cable part and in essence, what

402
00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:57,639
Speaker 3: it is is it's a twisted cable. You've got multiple

403
00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:03,639
Speaker 3: smaller metal wires that during manufacture have been twisted around

404
00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:06,359
Speaker 3: each other, and I don't know what the correct term

405
00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:09,719
Speaker 3: of that is in order to make a larger cable,

406
00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:13,159
Speaker 3: and some of this cable has untwisted, probably because it's

407
00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:15,880
Speaker 3: close to a cut end. And then on the right

408
00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:19,080
Speaker 3: hand side, down near where the man's fingers are that's

409
00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:23,000
Speaker 3: holding this, you can see the original twist of this cable.

410
00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:26,880
Speaker 3: I am guessing that this cable is maybe three eighth

411
00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:30,000
Speaker 3: inch in diameter. I mean, this is not something that

412
00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:34,080
Speaker 3: you could tie a knot in. It is something that

413
00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:38,560
Speaker 3: you could potentially bend around let's say Leslie's wrists or

414
00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:41,919
Speaker 3: her ankles, or use it as a ligature to strangle.

415
00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:46,240
Speaker 3: But this is not a material that one would use

416
00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:49,639
Speaker 3: an a fender would use to have, you know, basically

417
00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:53,760
Speaker 3: control and compliance from the victim. You know, again, this

418
00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:58,359
Speaker 3: is potentially suggesting that Leslie was not treated very well

419
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:00,840
Speaker 3: in the early days after her abduction.

420
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:07,760
Speaker 2: Okay, well, let's get to this, you know, the whole

421
00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:10,760
Speaker 2: part of this, which is you have this officer down

422
00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:12,840
Speaker 2: there in this what I consider to be an absolute

423
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:16,080
Speaker 2: nightmare of a scenario, sixty feet under the ground by

424
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:19,399
Speaker 2: himself only with a flashlight pitch black, finding all of

425
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:22,640
Speaker 2: these terrible things. He finds this wire on the platform

426
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:26,880
Speaker 2: which he follows. There's wire because it's just laying there,

427
00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:29,760
Speaker 2: but it's leading somewhere. It's tied onto part of the

428
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:33,679
Speaker 2: platform and he drops further into the shaft. So he

429
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:36,000
Speaker 2: follows it to the edge of something that goes over

430
00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:38,800
Speaker 2: the shaft and the end of the wire is around

431
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:43,040
Speaker 2: Leslie's neck. Yeah, she's hanging by the wire, no clothes, naked,

432
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:46,760
Speaker 2: her feet are just inches from the very bottom of

433
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:47,720
Speaker 2: the drain system.

434
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:49,600
Speaker 1: And I can tell you more. Of course, there's an

435
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:50,480
Speaker 1: autopsy and all that.

436
00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:53,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, I want to know is are her wrist bound

437
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:58,600
Speaker 3: or her ankles bound? Obviously the offender, it's not like

438
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:03,400
Speaker 3: she inadvertently fell off this ledge. Sounds like the offender

439
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:07,600
Speaker 3: either she was dead ahead of time and he hung her,

440
00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:11,479
Speaker 3: or that's how she died as he literally pushed her

441
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:14,520
Speaker 3: off this edge and this was a hanging.

442
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:15,440
Speaker 1: It's awful.

443
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:18,879
Speaker 3: You know when you start thinking about the scenario, you know,

444
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:22,080
Speaker 3: when does Leslie realize what's about to happen.

445
00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:26,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, so let me tell you about what the pathologist said.

446
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:29,520
Speaker 2: They had pretty good ones in nineteen seventy five in England.

447
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:32,160
Speaker 2: But I mean, we'll see I was a little confused

448
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:36,080
Speaker 2: following the post wartem. They believe Leslie actually died weeks earlier,

449
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:41,280
Speaker 2: thank goodness, just shortly after she was abducted, so hopefully

450
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:45,040
Speaker 2: this did not last long. They said that her cause

451
00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:48,760
Speaker 2: of death was determined to be I'm going to say

452
00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:51,719
Speaker 2: this wrong, vag al inhibition bagel.

453
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:54,520
Speaker 3: And yeah, so the vegus nerve, well.

454
00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 1: This is what they say.

455
00:25:55,240 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 2: This is translated in the newspapers as shock or fright.

456
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:03,000
Speaker 2: Is not mentioned as a cause of death, and the

457
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:06,359
Speaker 2: AP says that a police surgeon likened this to like

458
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:09,560
Speaker 2: a diver jumping suddenly into ice cold water and suffering

459
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:13,719
Speaker 2: cardiac arrest. Based on her autopsy, they did not think

460
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:15,920
Speaker 2: it was strangulation. They didn't see signs of that kind

461
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:18,200
Speaker 2: of strangulation. And you had said you thought maybe after

462
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:21,040
Speaker 2: she died he hung her, you know, as a way

463
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:22,680
Speaker 2: to hide her or something else.

464
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:26,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I would think that at the hanging

465
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:31,560
Speaker 3: itself was the cause of death. They would see definitive

466
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:33,480
Speaker 3: signs of that.

467
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:37,160
Speaker 1: Fatikia, I mean whatever, all the other lists of things.

468
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:40,159
Speaker 3: Right right, I mean she's hanging. There is going to

469
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 3: be physical damage to her neck structures, possibly to her

470
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:49,200
Speaker 3: cervical vertebrae if she fell a distance like you see

471
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:52,480
Speaker 3: in your typical hangings where the floor is drops out

472
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:54,400
Speaker 3: from the person that has a noose around their neck.

473
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:57,639
Speaker 3: You know, that's a lot of force that's concentrated in

474
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:01,520
Speaker 3: a very small cross section of the neck. You know.

475
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:06,000
Speaker 3: In terms of this conclusion of like a vagual reflex,

476
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 3: that almost sounds more like they couldn't figure out why

477
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 3: she died, you know, and considering that she they thought

478
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 3: she was dead for for weeks, you know, there is

479
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:22,720
Speaker 3: going to be decomposition this This location is sheltered from insects,

480
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:26,200
Speaker 3: but it's I imagine it's still not a great location

481
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:30,440
Speaker 3: for you know, body preservation. So I kind of think

482
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:36,960
Speaker 3: that maybe they didn't find any diagnostic features to determine

483
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 3: a cause of death, and this is maybe the one

484
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:42,439
Speaker 3: thing that they could think of. You know, I'm not

485
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 3: sure what they would be seeing in a body of

486
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 3: this condition that's hanging to be able to draw a

487
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:49,879
Speaker 3: conclusion that it's a you know, some sort of vagueal

488
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:52,720
Speaker 3: reflex that caused her death that I would need to

489
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:53,480
Speaker 3: know more about.

490
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:56,680
Speaker 2: Well, we'll have more information, I think a little bit later,

491
00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 2: once we get our suspect together. So they're trying to

492
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:03,160
Speaker 2: find Leslie's killer, they start attempting to link the evidence

493
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 2: from the drain system, like the sleeping bag and the

494
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 2: tape recorder to a specific suspect. So they start referencing

495
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:13,239
Speaker 2: serial numbers and labels, anything, any warranties, anything, but they

496
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:14,520
Speaker 2: aren't really getting anywhere.

497
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:16,240
Speaker 1: When the news.

498
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:18,800
Speaker 2: Gets a hold of this, the media finds out about

499
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:22,359
Speaker 2: Leslie's body, a couple reaches out to investigators and says

500
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 2: that they were in the park the night that Whittle

501
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 2: was there, screaming, this is Ron Whittle, you know, is

502
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:31,200
Speaker 2: anybody here? But they were there earlier in the evening

503
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:35,000
Speaker 2: they had seen a car flashing its lights at them.

504
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:37,119
Speaker 2: They weren't sure why the car was doing that, and

505
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:39,479
Speaker 2: they wrote it off, this is not Ron's car, this

506
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 2: is the kidnappers car. So I don't know where the

507
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:47,640
Speaker 2: timing went off, but they said that during this same time,

508
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 2: the exact same time, the couple also noticed a police car.

509
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 2: And this is not a police officer who was working

510
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 2: on Leslie's case, so it's totally coincidental that he was there.

511
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:01,240
Speaker 2: But he was in the park in his car. So

512
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:05,320
Speaker 2: the police wonder if the kidnapper saw this car and

513
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,760
Speaker 2: that frightened him enough to abandon the whole thing and

514
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:10,240
Speaker 2: then he ends up killing Leslie.

515
00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 1: But I don't know. What do you think about that theory?

516
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 3: Oh, I think that's a legitimate theory. Now it's curious

517
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:20,880
Speaker 3: that if the kidnapper is flashing his headlights in this

518
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:24,400
Speaker 3: what appears to be a fairly wide open space, how

519
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 3: did Ron not see that?

520
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:28,920
Speaker 1: I think the timing was different. So this is what

521
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 1: I think.

522
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 2: Remember, Ron got lost, and I wonder if the kidnapper

523
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 2: is flashing his lights thinking Ron is there somewhere. He's

524
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:39,720
Speaker 2: trying to say, this is where I am. But Ron

525
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,760
Speaker 2: was several hours late, so the couple was not there

526
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 2: when Ron was there. The couple was there much earlier

527
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:47,280
Speaker 2: because Ron got there I think at three in the morning.

528
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 1: So it's bad timing.

529
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:53,240
Speaker 3: I could see where if it's dark out and the

530
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:56,240
Speaker 3: kidnappers sitting there waiting for Ron, and then this patrol

531
00:29:56,320 --> 00:30:00,600
Speaker 3: car rolls out its headlights on, and kidnapp thinks it's

532
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:04,680
Speaker 3: Rod and then recognizes, oh shit, that's law enforcement. Now

533
00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:09,480
Speaker 3: there's panic. So yeah, I think that's a bona fide

534
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 3: theory right there.

535
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:13,960
Speaker 2: It's awful and I'm sure when Ron finds out this theory,

536
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:16,960
Speaker 2: you know if he had known how to get there, but.

537
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:20,600
Speaker 1: Then the kidnappers giving him terrible instructions. It's just awful.

538
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:21,480
Speaker 1: I mean all of it.

539
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:24,320
Speaker 3: I will tell you. If Ron had shown up on

540
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 3: time with the money, I think both Ron and Leslie

541
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 3: would be hanging in that shaft.

542
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 1: I was thinking that too.

543
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is not a guy who seems to be

544
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:36,200
Speaker 2: playing by any kind of moral rules at all. He

545
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:37,959
Speaker 2: would have just pulled out a gun and killed him.

546
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:40,560
Speaker 2: It probably did save his life that he got lost. Yeah,

547
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:43,240
Speaker 2: and I'm not convinced that Leslie was alive even at

548
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 2: that point.

549
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:46,160
Speaker 1: He's not gonna be strapped with a teenage girl.

550
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:49,480
Speaker 2: You know that just is so risky this guy, no

551
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 2: for sure, Okay, all right, nine months nothing happens. They

552
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 2: cannot find Black Panther until December eleventh, nineteen seventy five,

553
00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:01,760
Speaker 2: So this is eleven months after she is initially kidnapped.

554
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:05,000
Speaker 2: Two policemen stop a man they believed is being suspicious

555
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:08,080
Speaker 2: near a post office the sky and his post offices

556
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 2: in Mansfield, which is about one hundred miles northeast of

557
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:16,600
Speaker 2: the Wittulls home in Highly. When the guy is questioned,

558
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:18,800
Speaker 2: he gives a false name, and then he pulls a

559
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:21,240
Speaker 2: gun and he orders the officers to drive him to

560
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:25,080
Speaker 2: a nearby village. Remember they don't carry guns the police officers.

561
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:28,640
Speaker 2: There's a struggle that results in everybody exiting the car,

562
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:32,480
Speaker 2: and as the man starts to run, they restrain him.

563
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:35,520
Speaker 2: They flag down customers from a nearby restaurant, and then

564
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:39,080
Speaker 2: everybody overpowers this guy and they arrest him. So they

565
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:42,040
Speaker 2: go and do a search. I would not red herring you.

566
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:46,560
Speaker 2: This is our guy. They find various paraphernalia, including firearms

567
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:49,800
Speaker 2: and face masks that are directly linked to Black Panther.

568
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 2: And there is also a wire that looks just like

569
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 2: the kind of wire found around Leslie Snack. And they said,

570
00:31:57,560 --> 00:31:59,800
Speaker 2: this is it. This is the guy. His name is

571
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:03,200
Speaker 2: Donald Nielsen. And when you're ready, I want to do

572
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:06,720
Speaker 2: a comparison of his photo and our fantastic sketch artist

573
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:08,959
Speaker 2: to see if there's a like this here or not.

574
00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 1: But this is the guy. That's his name.

575
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:14,120
Speaker 3: You know, I'm just kind of curious, is Donald Nielsen?

576
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 3: Is he from the United States? By chance? No? UK? Why?

577
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:20,480
Speaker 3: Just because of the use of the firearm. This sounds

578
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:22,720
Speaker 3: more of like an American type crime than a British

579
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 3: type crime.

580
00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:25,560
Speaker 1: No, but he was in the armed forces.

581
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 3: Oh there you go.

582
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 2: Okay, I'll tell you about Donald once we get further

583
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 2: into here. Let's look at the sketch and look at

584
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:35,960
Speaker 2: the photo. So let me show you the sketch first.

585
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 2: So that's the sketch menacing guy, and then we have

586
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:42,760
Speaker 2: him menacing guy.

587
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 3: You know. So I'm looking at what appears to be

588
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 3: a mug shot of Donald Nielsen. What appears similar to

589
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:52,920
Speaker 3: me and the sketch. It definitely the eyes. Even in

590
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 3: this mugshot, he has that hard stare, the heavy eyebrows.

591
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 3: You know, There's definitely some differences in terms of the

592
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:07,440
Speaker 3: face shape. But I would say that's well within tolerance.

593
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:11,920
Speaker 3: I think the composite is close enough that if somebody

594
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 3: saw it and knew Donaldson and especially that outfit and

595
00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:18,200
Speaker 3: the composite will go, hey, you might want to look

596
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 3: at this guy.

597
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:22,720
Speaker 2: Absolutely well. He does not look like somebody you want

598
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:25,280
Speaker 2: to meet in an alleyway, that's for sure. He looks

599
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:28,880
Speaker 2: pretty upset, mad, and he eventually will tell us what

600
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 2: happened with Leslie. So his mom died when he was eleven,

601
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 2: and he was the constant butt of jokes. You know,

602
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 2: throughout his young adulthood and adolescence. He was born with

603
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:42,120
Speaker 2: the last name Nappy, and this is a word for diaper,

604
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:43,600
Speaker 2: common word for diaper in the UK.

605
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, so he that would not be good.

606
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:51,480
Speaker 2: He adopted the surname Nilsen in the sixties after his

607
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 2: daughter was born because he wanted to spare her the

608
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:57,960
Speaker 2: same ridicule. He was in the Armed Forces, as I

609
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:01,000
Speaker 2: had mentioned to you before, so there's a reference with

610
00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 2: the gun. He struggled really a lot. He struggled financially

611
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:07,200
Speaker 2: after he left the military, and he was in various

612
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:12,920
Speaker 2: careers including carpentry and security, and then he went into crime.

613
00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:16,080
Speaker 2: By the mid nineteen sixties he was carrying out a

614
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:20,040
Speaker 2: lot of burglaries to boost his family's income. Police say

615
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:24,600
Speaker 2: four hundred burglaries without being caught. He started robbing post

616
00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:27,840
Speaker 2: offices because he needed more money between sixty seven and

617
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:32,160
Speaker 2: seventy four and he carried out about nineteen post office

618
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:37,400
Speaker 2: raids in Yorkshire and Lancashire. So he admits eventually to

619
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 2: being the Black Panther and the man responsible for kidnapping Leslie.

620
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:46,239
Speaker 2: He read about all of these lucrative kidnappings in the

621
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:48,560
Speaker 2: United States and decided that that would be a really

622
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:51,880
Speaker 2: good idea. So he targeted her after reading about the

623
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:56,040
Speaker 2: inheritance and that everybody was calling her an heiress. So

624
00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:59,680
Speaker 2: that is that he's very violent. He's had a long

625
00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:03,560
Speaker 2: his of crime. You know, clearly has no problem killing people.

626
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:06,600
Speaker 2: He does detail what happens. I want to get your

627
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:09,360
Speaker 2: impressions of Donald right now, and then I'll tell you

628
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:11,840
Speaker 2: what he says happened, and you can tell me what

629
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:12,279
Speaker 2: you think.

630
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:14,719
Speaker 3: Well, first, I don't have any sympathy for him with

631
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:17,239
Speaker 3: the last name of Nappy. Try having the last name

632
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:22,200
Speaker 3: of Holes. Oh, come on, I have been referred to

633
00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:24,719
Speaker 3: about every body orifice as possible.

634
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:27,520
Speaker 1: I know that as a young kid.

635
00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:29,319
Speaker 2: I'm sure, I mean, the worst the worst I ever

636
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:33,400
Speaker 2: got was Awesome Dawson, So I know, I'm sorry, Oh poor.

637
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:40,120
Speaker 3: You Kate the great I mean, I'll let anybody listening

638
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 3: use their imagination to how the surname Holes could be

639
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:49,760
Speaker 3: referred to. But okay, so obviously kind of a disrupted childhood.

640
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:52,480
Speaker 3: He was in the military. You didn't go into the

641
00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:55,480
Speaker 3: details of what he experienced in the military. Did he

642
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:58,680
Speaker 3: see action? Was he on the front lines? That can

643
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:03,200
Speaker 3: be very traumatic and then the getting out of you know,

644
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 3: the service and now struggling financially. It's it's still you

645
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:11,360
Speaker 3: make You can make a choice, you know, there are

646
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 3: other ways to make money. He chose the criminal route

647
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:19,279
Speaker 3: all along. The post office robbery homicides as well as

648
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:22,960
Speaker 3: the Leslie abduction. They're financially motivated, you know. He's a

649
00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:28,760
Speaker 3: financially motivated offender. He chose to go down a criminal path.

650
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:34,399
Speaker 3: He has a predisposition for violence. You know. He most

651
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:39,799
Speaker 3: certainly could you know, commit robberies without doing the homicides.

652
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 3: And you know, I don't know the circumstances of the

653
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:48,440
Speaker 3: post office crimes, you know, but chances are My guess

654
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 3: is is that he made a decision to kill these

655
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:57,200
Speaker 3: postal workers. He possibly could have successfully robbed these places

656
00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:03,000
Speaker 3: and walked away. He's got a gun, they don't, right, Yeah,

657
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:07,480
Speaker 3: So he chose to kill them. He chose to kill Leslie,

658
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:12,560
Speaker 3: you know. So he has that violent predisposition thought and

659
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:15,919
Speaker 3: may have had some struggles in his early life. There's

660
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:19,879
Speaker 3: nothing about his upbringing or anything, as far as I'm

661
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:24,920
Speaker 3: concerned that should cause anybody to have any sympathy for him.

662
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:28,920
Speaker 2: No, And he's a parent too. I mean, that's just nauseating.

663
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:31,280
Speaker 2: Let me tell you what he says. He had planned

664
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:34,920
Speaker 2: all of this pretty meticulously. That night, January fourteenth, he

665
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:38,320
Speaker 2: entered the house wearing a hood in all black clothing,

666
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:42,279
Speaker 2: such was his way. He forced the door open and

667
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:46,839
Speaker 2: gagged and blindfolded Leslie in her bedroom upstairs and brought

668
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:49,920
Speaker 2: her out to his stolen vehicle at gunpoint. She was

669
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:53,239
Speaker 2: just wearing her robin slippers, so what police thought. He

670
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:55,719
Speaker 2: hit her in the back of the car beneath a

671
00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:58,680
Speaker 2: foam mattress, and he drove her over sixty miles to

672
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:03,000
Speaker 2: Bathpool Park, where he imprisoned her in the dark, damp

673
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:08,239
Speaker 2: drain shaft. I mean, he just says, very straightforwardly. I

674
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 2: gave her nothing to keep her warm and comfortable except

675
00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:14,840
Speaker 2: for the sleeping bag. He made her take off the

676
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:17,520
Speaker 2: rope so she was completely naked. I will say, there's

677
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:20,000
Speaker 2: a note that says that there has never been a

678
00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 2: suggestion that she had been sexually assaulted. He never said

679
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:25,160
Speaker 2: anything about that. It could have also been that they

680
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:28,880
Speaker 2: just didn't find evidence. They would have seen evidence. I

681
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:31,440
Speaker 2: don't know about after fifty one days, but I mean, certainly,

682
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:33,800
Speaker 2: you know in seventy five, they would have seen physical

683
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 2: evidence of something.

684
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:37,600
Speaker 1: So I don't know, do you want me to pause

685
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:38,919
Speaker 1: there or do you want me to keep going?

686
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:41,480
Speaker 3: Well, keep going because I need to know more about

687
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:44,880
Speaker 3: when you know how long Leslie had been dead and hanging.

688
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:48,640
Speaker 2: But yeah, keep going, okay, So he says he made her,

689
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:52,320
Speaker 2: of course, make the recorded tapes that eventually he shared

690
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:55,400
Speaker 2: with her family. This was a very complicated plan that

691
00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:58,279
Speaker 2: he had done before. You know, he knew it was

692
00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:00,840
Speaker 2: never going to be this one drop. He wanted to

693
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 2: do what some articles were calling a ransom run that

694
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:06,759
Speaker 2: I've read about before. So a ransom run is requiring,

695
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:09,080
Speaker 2: you know, the family to go from one location to

696
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 2: the next to the next, like a scavenger hunt, and

697
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:14,840
Speaker 2: then finally there's a money drop at a specific location.

698
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:19,840
Speaker 2: But the plan went off script super early when you

699
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:24,160
Speaker 2: know Ron missed that phone call because the police said,

700
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:28,400
Speaker 2: you're gonna miss this phone call. Nielsen had actually called

701
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:31,600
Speaker 2: that night at midnight when he was supposed to talk

702
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:33,960
Speaker 2: to Ron, and the police had said initially, well, no,

703
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:37,120
Speaker 2: you don't go to that phone booth. The kidnapper I'm

704
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:39,880
Speaker 2: sure has made us by now, and he hadn't he

705
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:43,520
Speaker 2: did say that the plan got bungled after he saw

706
00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:46,200
Speaker 2: that off duty cop or that cop and got frightened

707
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 2: in the park that night. So we do have more

708
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:52,520
Speaker 2: information about sort of what happens and with her death too.

709
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:55,040
Speaker 2: I can talk about that now. Also it comes out

710
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 2: in trial that I can skip to that.

711
00:39:57,239 --> 00:39:59,919
Speaker 3: No, I think you know everything he's saying, just mad

712
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:04,080
Speaker 3: up with the details of the case in terms of

713
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:08,040
Speaker 3: it obviously was pre planned. Does he ever address why

714
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:11,640
Speaker 3: he used a box of candy in order to leave

715
00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:14,520
Speaker 3: the message in the first place at the house?

716
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:20,120
Speaker 2: Now, and it was Turkish delights, which had various definitions

717
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 2: from the seventies, and so I just said, I'm just

718
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:24,279
Speaker 2: going to say, a box of candy. I don't know

719
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:26,120
Speaker 2: if it was significant or just something he had in

720
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:28,759
Speaker 2: his car, but it would have had his fingerprints on it,

721
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:30,480
Speaker 2: I'm assuming unless he wore gloves.

722
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:33,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I think you know the type of

723
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:36,040
Speaker 3: ransom note that he left. It wasn't like a piece

724
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:38,919
Speaker 3: of paper that he could he's placing on the kitchen counter.

725
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:43,080
Speaker 3: It's the strip of this dimo, you know, like a label,

726
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:47,719
Speaker 3: so you know, containerizing it into a larger object that

727
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:52,280
Speaker 3: would stand out to the family. I could see the reasoning,

728
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:54,759
Speaker 3: but you know, why a box of candy? Why not

729
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:57,840
Speaker 3: something else? And it may have been at what you suggested,

730
00:40:57,960 --> 00:40:59,560
Speaker 3: you know, maybe that was just the one thing he

731
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:02,000
Speaker 3: had but to have, you know, and thought, oh, I'll

732
00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:04,239
Speaker 3: just use that. The family will look inside that.

733
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:07,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, to make clear that this is something unusual that

734
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:12,239
Speaker 2: was not theirs. The trial for Nielsen mcgins in June

735
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 2: of nineteen seventy six. He's charged with kidnapping, grievous bodily harm,

736
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:20,640
Speaker 2: firearms possessions, and four murders. So the three poster workers

737
00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:24,360
Speaker 2: in Leslie and I have bad news. Gerald Smith died.

738
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:26,840
Speaker 2: That's the security guard. You would think he would be

739
00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:29,600
Speaker 2: included in these and it would be five murders. And

740
00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:32,160
Speaker 2: there was something interesting I did not know at the time.

741
00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:35,360
Speaker 2: English laws said that there was something called year in

742
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:38,400
Speaker 2: a day a year and a day rule which prevented

743
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:42,040
Speaker 2: murder charges from being brought if the victim died more

744
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:45,439
Speaker 2: than a year and a day after the attack. Isn't

745
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:48,040
Speaker 2: that interesting? So it meant that they could not include

746
00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:51,040
Speaker 2: Gerald Smith's death. He survived for over a year, if

747
00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:53,040
Speaker 2: it was over a year and a day, he wouldn't

748
00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:57,200
Speaker 2: be included, and that law has since changed. Okay, here's details.

749
00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 2: I mean, this guy on an asshole. In the trial,

750
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:03,720
Speaker 2: it comes out that in the final days of her life.

751
00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 2: I don't see how long he kept her alive. It

752
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:08,840
Speaker 2: did not seem within it was within like two or

753
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:09,359
Speaker 2: three days.

754
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:10,520
Speaker 1: It sounds like he.

755
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:14,120
Speaker 2: Tied her to the side of the pitch black shaft

756
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:17,279
Speaker 2: using a wire noose that I showed you that was

757
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:18,480
Speaker 2: fastened around her neck.

758
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:19,960
Speaker 1: Remember, she was very petite.

759
00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:22,680
Speaker 2: The noose was designed to prevent her from moving it all,

760
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:25,719
Speaker 2: and he says that any big shift in Police say

761
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:27,759
Speaker 2: this too, any big shift in position would tighten the

762
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:30,920
Speaker 2: wire around her neck, which could potentially strangle her.

763
00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:32,560
Speaker 1: He says, I didn't kill her.

764
00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:35,680
Speaker 2: He said she accidentally fell off the ledge into the

765
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:39,840
Speaker 2: lower shaft of the draining system. That he'd only tied

766
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:43,200
Speaker 2: the wire around Leslie's neck to restrain her, not to

767
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:46,360
Speaker 2: kill her. But most people thought that he killed her

768
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:48,960
Speaker 2: in a fit of rage after probably the cop he

769
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:50,000
Speaker 2: spotted the cop.

770
00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:52,120
Speaker 1: Or what you know, any number of reasons.

771
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:56,359
Speaker 2: But the truth is unknown, and you know, the pathology

772
00:42:56,440 --> 00:43:00,839
Speaker 2: report is sort of inconclusive. I wonder Paul knowing where

773
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:03,919
Speaker 2: she is now though, if she's standing there for days

774
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:07,200
Speaker 2: naked and it's cold and it's January and it's wet

775
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:11,759
Speaker 2: down there, if the cardiac arrest theory is not so

776
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:12,800
Speaker 2: out of bounds.

777
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:15,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I think that this is this is

778
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:21,560
Speaker 3: now getting just from a medical side. It's above me

779
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:25,200
Speaker 3: in terms of okay, you know, because I've heard of

780
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:29,799
Speaker 3: you know, the bagel reflex vegus nerve issues causing death.

781
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:33,759
Speaker 3: In terms of the condition that she was left in,

782
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:36,759
Speaker 3: you know, the fright that she would be under. I mean,

783
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:40,040
Speaker 3: imagine if you're a seventeen year old girl and you're

784
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:44,480
Speaker 3: left alone in absolute darkness, sixty feet down in a shaft,

785
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:49,680
Speaker 3: and you're hearing sounds, you know, because guess what's down there.

786
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:52,880
Speaker 3: There's rats down there, There's going to be other types

787
00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:56,000
Speaker 3: of sounds, you know, water running. This would be a

788
00:43:56,320 --> 00:44:00,239
Speaker 3: very very scary environment, and you've got this noose around

789
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:03,840
Speaker 3: your neck that basically you have to be absolutely still

790
00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:08,120
Speaker 3: or it just continues to tighten. Yeah, you know, that's

791
00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:13,560
Speaker 3: where I think the pathologist is looking at the circumstances

792
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:19,440
Speaker 3: that she was bound under in the environment versus you know,

793
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:22,840
Speaker 3: some diagnostic feature he could see at autopsy. I just

794
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:26,480
Speaker 3: don't if she accidentally fell off that shaft or was

795
00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:29,960
Speaker 3: pushed off that shaft. And I mean she's falling I

796
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:32,719
Speaker 3: don't know how long, but obviously her body weight, she's

797
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:35,120
Speaker 3: hanging under her body weight because her feet aren't touching

798
00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:38,920
Speaker 3: the bottom. You know, this would cause some significant damage

799
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:41,680
Speaker 3: to her neck. And is it possible that that damage

800
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:46,920
Speaker 3: from the hanging could obscure evidence of strangulation. But if

801
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:49,840
Speaker 3: she did die of a vaguel nerve reflex, you know,

802
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:53,920
Speaker 3: was she just laying on the platform and then was

803
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:57,000
Speaker 3: she pushed off by him or did she you know,

804
00:44:57,239 --> 00:45:02,040
Speaker 3: under collapsing from this vaguel reflex. Now she falls, But

805
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:05,680
Speaker 3: then I would think that being so close to death

806
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:09,600
Speaker 3: that it would be indistinguishable. They would find evidence of

807
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:14,080
Speaker 3: literally strangulation from the hanging. So I don't know. You know,

808
00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:19,040
Speaker 3: that's literally getting a high end forensic pathologist to assess everything,

809
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:22,040
Speaker 3: and then I would need to hear from that person

810
00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:23,600
Speaker 3: what their thoughts are.

811
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:24,960
Speaker 1: He killed her no matter what.

812
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:30,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, he is absolutely responsible for her homicide.

813
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:32,720
Speaker 3: I kind of want to go back to the fact

814
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:37,120
Speaker 3: that she's nude. Yeah, as I mentioned before, like with

815
00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:40,960
Speaker 3: this metal cable. You know, this is not a type

816
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:44,080
Speaker 3: of binding material one would use if you want your

817
00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:48,000
Speaker 3: victim to be as compliant as possible, because it would

818
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:52,680
Speaker 3: be so uncomfortable and so painful. You have to think about, Okay,

819
00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:56,360
Speaker 3: if I'm going to be having to control this seventeen

820
00:45:56,560 --> 00:46:00,560
Speaker 3: year old girl, Leslie, how do I I do that

821
00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:05,840
Speaker 3: and minimize her resistance or her And part of that

822
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:09,719
Speaker 3: is minimizing her discomfort. And now you're down in this

823
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:13,359
Speaker 3: cold shaft and he's having her take her robe off.

824
00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:19,399
Speaker 3: That further causes discomfort. So that's where I start going,

825
00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:22,719
Speaker 3: Hold on, why is he doing that? I am not

826
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:27,239
Speaker 3: convinced that once he had her isolated that there wasn't

827
00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:31,240
Speaker 3: any sexual activity. But if she's down there for almost

828
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:35,120
Speaker 3: two months and dead, they're really not going to be

829
00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:38,200
Speaker 3: able to find evidence of any sexual assault.

830
00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:41,560
Speaker 2: Well, thankfully he has found guilty. Of course, he gets

831
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:44,200
Speaker 2: five life sentences, no possibility of parole.

832
00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:47,799
Speaker 1: He died just in twenty eleven. He was seventy five.

833
00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:50,640
Speaker 2: This is not an old story. It's seventy five, you know,

834
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:54,040
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy five. Yeah, so he died at age seventy five.

835
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:58,160
Speaker 2: He had developed a neurological disease, and you know, the

836
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:02,799
Speaker 2: family went on. They have a bus company that still operates.

837
00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:05,440
Speaker 2: It doesn't seem like the family is, you know, that

838
00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:08,320
Speaker 2: involved with it, but we aren't sure. I feel like

839
00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:11,719
Speaker 2: I don't know a lot sometimes about our criminals in

840
00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:14,480
Speaker 2: their background and like their criminal history and sort of

841
00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:18,560
Speaker 2: how it all builds, and particularly about how violent these

842
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:21,920
Speaker 2: kidnappings can be, because I feel like we've had bungling kidnappings,

843
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:25,040
Speaker 2: but this was really that end up somehow with people dead.

844
00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:29,120
Speaker 2: But this was really calculated and scary, and this was

845
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:31,800
Speaker 2: somebody who needed to be stopped and killed, you know,

846
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:32,720
Speaker 2: five people.

847
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:35,120
Speaker 1: So a really sad story for.

848
00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:37,800
Speaker 2: A seventeen year old girl who I'm assuming had just

849
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:40,960
Speaker 2: all the potential in the world, and you know, just

850
00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:42,480
Speaker 2: devastating for her family.

851
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:44,520
Speaker 1: To bring that kind of case to you, I think.

852
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:50,280
Speaker 3: Is important unfortunately, whether it be kidnappings like in Leslie's case,

853
00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:56,160
Speaker 3: or sexual assaults or homicides, you know, you have victims

854
00:47:56,200 --> 00:47:58,640
Speaker 3: who you know, they go to bed at night think

855
00:47:58,719 --> 00:48:00,600
Speaker 3: and they're going to wake up the next morning and

856
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:03,200
Speaker 3: life will be the same, and within a matter of

857
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:07,359
Speaker 3: hours their lives are either completely changed or taken away

858
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:12,680
Speaker 3: from them, somebody like this Nielsen guy. He was on

859
00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:17,800
Speaker 3: kind of this escalation of criminality from I don't know

860
00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:21,000
Speaker 3: how far back, you know, whether he did anything in

861
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:24,760
Speaker 3: the military, but definitely after he got out of the military.

862
00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:28,359
Speaker 3: He's committing the burglaries, you know, he's doing the robbery homicides,

863
00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:30,560
Speaker 3: and then he's doing an abduction homicide of a girl.

864
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:35,280
Speaker 3: He just escalated over time, and though the primary motive

865
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:40,560
Speaker 3: is financial, got to ask the question about why the escalation.

866
00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:44,800
Speaker 3: You know, what is truly his inner motivation? You know,

867
00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:48,880
Speaker 3: is he just angry at the world and is just

868
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:52,400
Speaker 3: getting more and more pissed off and escalates the violence

869
00:48:53,080 --> 00:48:57,480
Speaker 3: as he goes on. Once Leyton's tied Leslie's abduction to

870
00:48:58,120 --> 00:49:01,600
Speaker 3: these post office homicides, it's like, Okay, you know, this

871
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:04,520
Speaker 3: is a bad, bad guy. He is a threat to

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00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:08,040
Speaker 3: public safety. And you know, fortunately law enforcement found him

873
00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:13,120
Speaker 3: before he committed another crime. Unfortunately they didn't find Leslie

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00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:14,760
Speaker 3: before she was killed.

875
00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:18,719
Speaker 1: Okay, I don't think I can talk about this story anymore.

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00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:19,960
Speaker 3: It's a tough one.

877
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:22,520
Speaker 1: It is a tough one, you know, it is.

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00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:27,320
Speaker 2: Well, Paul, thank you for going through the story with

879
00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:29,880
Speaker 2: me and talking about all the forensics. It's nice to

880
00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:31,759
Speaker 2: have a reminder there was a time when we did

881
00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:33,800
Speaker 2: have good forensics that we could talk about on this

882
00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:37,160
Speaker 2: show and not just sort of like wishing the real

883
00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:40,880
Speaker 2: killer will walk through the door, or you know, like

884
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:42,879
Speaker 2: looking at tea leaves to try to figure out who

885
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:43,480
Speaker 2: the killer was.

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00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:43,759
Speaker 3: There.

887
00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:46,880
Speaker 2: We are in the seventies able to pick up on

888
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:50,680
Speaker 2: some things. Yeah, and thankfully the police finally got it

889
00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:51,719
Speaker 2: together there at the end.

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00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:55,000
Speaker 1: But I will see you next week. For my hope,

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00:49:55,239 --> 00:49:58,480
Speaker 1: is a drastically different story that we can talk about.

892
00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:02,360
Speaker 3: Okay, as always, I look forward to it.

893
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:09,759
Speaker 1: Okay, I'll see you next week. Thanks. This has been

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00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:11,600
Speaker 1: an exactly right production.

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00:50:11,719 --> 00:50:14,839
Speaker 3: For our sources and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot

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00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:17,040
Speaker 3: com slash Buried Bones sources.

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00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:19,680
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

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00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:24,200
Speaker 3: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson.

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00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:26,719
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

900
00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:29,319
Speaker 3: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

901
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:31,560
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

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00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:36,000
Speaker 3: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hart Stark and Danielle Kramer.

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00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:39,600
Speaker 2: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

904
00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:40,520
Speaker 2: Buried Bones.

905
00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:43,480
Speaker 3: Pod Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a

906
00:50:43,560 --> 00:50:45,840
Speaker 3: Gilded Age story of murder and the race to decode

907
00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:48,120
Speaker 3: the criminal mind, is available now, and

908
00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:53,040
Speaker 2: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, my life solving America's cold cases,

909
00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:54,359
Speaker 2: is also available now