1 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 1: Hey, and welcome to What Future. I'm your host, josh 2 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:23,560 Speaker 1: Wa Tapolski, and I got to say very excited about 3 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:26,079 Speaker 1: today's show. Many many episodes ago, we had on a 4 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 1: gentleman named Felix Salmon who's a terrific journalist. He is 5 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:33,600 Speaker 1: the chief financial correspondent for Axios. You may have heard 6 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:35,920 Speaker 1: of very hot website where you can get all the news, 7 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:38,120 Speaker 1: and he wrote. We actually touched on it last time 8 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 1: we talked. He wrote a book which was not yet 9 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 1: out at the time of us chatting. We were actual 10 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 1: chatting about the bank crisis that was happening. Anyhow, he 11 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:48,280 Speaker 1: has written a book. It's called The Phoenix Economy, Work, 12 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:51,440 Speaker 1: Life and Money in the New Not Normal, And I 13 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 1: got to say I have been reading it. It is fascinating. 14 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 1: It basically details the strange directions the world and money 15 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 1: moved in as the pandemic began and as our lives 16 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:04,960 Speaker 1: got kind of upended. Anyhow, I don't need to tell 17 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:06,959 Speaker 1: you about it. He should tell you about it. So 18 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:11,000 Speaker 1: let's not waste any more time. Let's get to this conversation. 19 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 1: By the way, I've been highlighting the book. I actually 20 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:33,399 Speaker 1: hate when people write in books. And Laura and my 21 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:37,319 Speaker 1: wife is a huge like note taker in the margins 22 00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:39,399 Speaker 1: of books, and so there are a lot of times 23 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:40,959 Speaker 1: I'll pick up a book of hers and I'm like, 24 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 1: I can't read this because you have too much even 25 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 1: underlying it's like fascinating, you know, page seventy eight, you know, 26 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 1: reference back to page seventy eight. I'm like, great if 27 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:53,640 Speaker 1: I buy a used book and it's got notations, and 28 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 1: then I'm very upset. But I've been I've been highlighting 29 00:01:56,520 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 1: and making notes in here, I guess partially because it's 30 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:03,320 Speaker 1: a it's a galley, so fucking I'm like, wow, this 31 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 1: is so liberating, And now i know what everybody's been 32 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:09,320 Speaker 1: freaking out about. Anyhow, tell us what the book is about, 33 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:11,959 Speaker 1: assuming that we have not already picked up and read 34 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 1: it cover to cover in a fevered night of cocaine bis. 35 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 2: And most of my jelessness will have done. But for 36 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 2: the two of you who haven't done that, it's it's 37 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 2: basically a book about how COVID changed the world. It's 38 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 2: a book about how we had seventy years of broadly speaking, 39 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 2: you know, peace, we had one hundred years without a pandemic. 40 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 2: We had this post World War two international order of 41 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:47,400 Speaker 2: countries cooperating, of India and China being brought into the 42 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 2: global economic system, of everyone trying to cooperate and not 43 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 2: go to war with each other, and it kind of worked. 44 00:02:54,720 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 2: And that period of relative stability in geopolitical terms was 45 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:06,480 Speaker 2: extremely unusual in historical terms, right Like, that's not how 46 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 2: history normally works. I call it the new not normal 47 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 2: because compared to everything that we used to since since 48 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 2: nineteen forty six, it's not normal. But it's actually a 49 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 2: return to like the pre nineteen forty six normal of 50 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 2: you know, crazy shit happening all over the place, plagues 51 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:28,960 Speaker 2: and wars and depressions, and you know, lots of upside 52 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:31,639 Speaker 2: and lots of downside. You know, people forget how amazing 53 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 2: the twenties and the thirties were for the global economy, 54 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 2: right Like, there are a lot of great things that 55 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 2: happened in between the terrible things that happened, and that 56 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 2: kind of combination of the great and the terrible is 57 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 2: I think this era that we're entering right now. 58 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 1: Right you're saying peace and prosperity were an unusual netlast 59 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 1: it has been completely peaceful or prosperous everywhere. But this 60 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 1: kind of general sense of at least in massive you know, 61 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 1: industrialized nations and things things like that, that we didn't 62 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 1: have huge world wars and pandemics and things of that nature. 63 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 1: That's the abnormal part. And what we are experiencing now 64 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 1: is closer to what would be historically considered normal. 65 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 2: Exactly that we had this very unusual degree of international 66 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 2: cooperation immediately following the Second World what we all came 67 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 2: together and said, like, never again, and we forgot that 68 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 2: in twenty sixteen, and I actually, I actually kind of 69 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:29,840 Speaker 2: date the beginning of the new not normal more to 70 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:33,480 Speaker 2: twenty sixteen into twenty twenty. Twenty sixteen was the date 71 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 2: at which Britain voted to leave the European Union. It 72 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 2: voted to basically jettison all of that kind of international 73 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:43,839 Speaker 2: cooperation that the post war world was built on, and 74 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:45,280 Speaker 2: they were like, you know, fuck this, We're going. 75 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:46,040 Speaker 1: To go it alone. 76 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:48,840 Speaker 2: Right then, you know, a little bit later in the year, 77 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 2: something very similar happened in the US with the election 78 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:52,720 Speaker 2: of Donald Trump. 79 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:55,120 Speaker 1: That's right, our own, our own Braxit. 80 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:58,880 Speaker 2: And there's a case to be made that the COVID 81 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 2: pandemic would have been and much milder and much more contained. 82 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 2: Had Trump not been elected president that you know, a 83 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:12,719 Speaker 2: Clinton administration would not have torn apart the pandemic response 84 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:15,919 Speaker 2: teams that the China US cooperation would have allowed the 85 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:20,360 Speaker 2: CDC and NIH and those people to go into Wuhan 86 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:22,479 Speaker 2: when it was first discovered, and they could have reacted 87 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 2: more quickly. And yeah, we don't know, like these are counterfactuals, 88 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 2: but whatever happened, the result was a pandemic the likes 89 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:34,920 Speaker 2: of which had not been seen in one hundred years. 90 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 2: And in fact, the pandemic that in terms of its 91 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 2: societal impact was orders of magnitude greater than the one 92 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:46,000 Speaker 2: that we had in nineteen eighteen. In nineteen eighteen, the pandemic, 93 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 2: we didn't really notice it very much, even though it 94 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:51,880 Speaker 2: killed a lot of people like that, we could notice it, 95 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:54,279 Speaker 2: could we Well, yeah, it was hard to notice because 96 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 2: you know, media wasn't the same, and you know, people 97 00:05:57,080 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 2: died of infectious diseases all the time, and it wasn't 98 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 2: obvious that everyone was just dying of the same disease 99 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 2: at the same time to the same degree. It wasn't 100 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 2: in that p one position, if like, the one thing 101 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 2: everyone cared about, mainly because the one thing that everyone 102 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 2: cared about was the First World War, which is like 103 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:12,920 Speaker 2: a bigger deal. 104 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:13,240 Speaker 1: Right. 105 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 2: And in fact, if you look at COVID, the only 106 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 2: thing that knocks COVID out of that p one position 107 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 2: that caused COVID to no longer be the one thing 108 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:27,080 Speaker 2: that everyone thought about and cared about, was the invasion 109 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:28,400 Speaker 2: of Ukraine by Russia. 110 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 1: Right. It was Putin felt his attention waning, and he 111 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 1: was like, how can I get it back? I was 112 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 1: actually going to ask you do you think that happens 113 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:40,359 Speaker 1: in a in a non COVID world? And I know 114 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:44,040 Speaker 1: that's ridiculous, profrior, ridiculous question to ask speculation to have 115 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 1: you make, but yeah, I'm curiously Yeah, so I know 116 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 1: I've been speculating. When you when you look at all 117 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 1: these pieces on the on the map, right, you look 118 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:52,680 Speaker 1: at all the pieces of the puzzle that got kind 119 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:55,920 Speaker 1: of splintered apart, how much does like how much does 120 00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 1: it is that accelerated by or is it not accelerated 121 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 1: by this kind of you know, sort of the new 122 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:05,240 Speaker 1: normal that we entered into during COVID. It's a really 123 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 1: good question. 124 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 2: And yeah, look, if I can speculate about how President 125 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 2: Clinton would have reacted to COVID Like I can speculate 126 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:13,400 Speaker 2: a little bit about this, and I do a little 127 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 2: bit in the book. What I say is that pandemics 128 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 2: tend to strengthen authoritarians, and they make societies more authoritarian, 129 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:29,440 Speaker 2: and people in societies want more authoritarian leaders when there's 130 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 2: a pandemic. 131 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 1: You can see the way that say. 132 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 2: Jacinda da And in New Zealand, who is this kind 133 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 2: of crunchy granola, punchy granola hippie lefty prime minister suddenly 134 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 2: became this like super hard you know, we are going 135 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 2: to lock down and we're going to implement a zero 136 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 2: COVID policy. And it was incredibly popular when she did that. 137 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 1: Right, But isn't that just good leadership? I mean, but no, 138 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 1: there is. You don't have to be like fascist to 139 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:56,800 Speaker 1: be like we should. 140 00:07:56,880 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 2: Absolutely not. And she's a good example, right, Like, I 141 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 2: don't criticize it at all, but what you see in 142 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 2: countries that have had a lot of plagues and pandemics 143 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:12,120 Speaker 2: tend to be less amenable to sort of liberal freedoms 144 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 2: and tend to be more authoritarian. That's some interesting research 145 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:17,280 Speaker 2: about that, which I put in the book, and what 146 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:20,640 Speaker 2: we saw in, you know, during the pandemic, was not 147 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 2: only put In doubling down on his authoritarian tendencies by 148 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 2: annexing Ukraine or at least trying to, but also an 149 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 2: effective invasion of Hong Kong by China. You know, a 150 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:37,840 Speaker 2: lot of people were too worried about COVID we even noticed, 151 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:41,559 Speaker 2: but the complete loss of freedoms by everyone in Hong 152 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 2: Kong and flagrant violation of the treaty that China signed 153 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:50,079 Speaker 2: with the Brits in nineteen ninety seven, and they just 154 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 2: kind of said, fuck it, you know, you know, we 155 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:54,120 Speaker 2: are just going to stomp on Hong Kong and stamp 156 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 2: out every bit of freedom of speech on the island. 157 00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 2: And like again, like would they have done that? Son's COVID. 158 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 2: Maybe it's hard to tell, but it's definitely of a 159 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 2: piece with these other kind of events that were happening 160 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 2: elsewhere in the. 161 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:11,480 Speaker 1: World, right. I Mean, it's also easy, isn't it. I Mean, 162 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 1: when you've got a pandemic that nobody really knows anything 163 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:16,199 Speaker 1: about and a disease that's killing people, and you're sort 164 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 1: of like don't leave the house or don't get you know, 165 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:22,080 Speaker 1: businesses have to close or whatever. You're doing at that moment, 166 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 1: kind of easy to say, well, also, we're going to 167 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 1: do some other you know, completely unilateral shit because you 168 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:32,440 Speaker 1: know who's going to stop us in this extreme emergency state. Like, 169 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 1: I feel like there are a lot of things that 170 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 1: happened that, even with Biden, that seem completely out of 171 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:40,240 Speaker 1: sync with all like what we know of American politics, 172 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:43,320 Speaker 1: for instance, like giving people money repeatedly, don't let a 173 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:44,560 Speaker 1: crisis go to wasting. 174 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:46,960 Speaker 2: Absolutely, yeah, you get you get to use the cover 175 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 2: of the crisis to do something like, you know, the 176 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 2: Green New Deal that would never go through otherwise. 177 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 1: Right, Like like like what a situation like January sixth 178 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 1: have happened in a non wait a second, that was 179 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:01,199 Speaker 1: twenty two wait a second. 180 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 2: Six, twenty twenty one, twenty one during you're right, you're right. 181 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:07,200 Speaker 1: It was during the pandemic, right. 182 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 2: And one of the crazy things about one of the 183 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:12,560 Speaker 2: things about exactly the six was that people were watching 184 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 2: these TV pictures if the rioters swarming across the capitole 185 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 2: and no one was wearing masks and know these crowds, 186 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 2: and everyone in sort of blue America was horrified not 187 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:30,079 Speaker 2: only by the you know way the democracy was falling apart, 188 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:33,880 Speaker 2: he eyes, but also by the fact that, like it was, 189 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:38,400 Speaker 2: they were so proud of their unmasked right status. 190 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:42,240 Speaker 1: Right. Not everywhere, but in a lot of large countries 191 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 1: you had a huge amount of people who were like, 192 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 1: I don't want to wear a mask, I don't want 193 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 1: to participate in whatever this. Maybe maybe not quite as 194 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:52,720 Speaker 1: fervent as they were in America. Canadians had some truckers 195 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:56,720 Speaker 1: we forget, perhaps the great truck, the Brigador. 196 00:10:56,840 --> 00:10:59,959 Speaker 2: Canadian truckers were a big deal. But no, even even 197 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 2: in you know, mild Man at New Zealand, which has 198 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:04,960 Speaker 2: thirty times as many sheep as it does people. Even 199 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:09,679 Speaker 2: in New Zealand, there were protesters camped outside the New 200 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:13,199 Speaker 2: Zealand Parliament waving Trump flags. 201 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 1: Yeah. 202 00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 2: Yes, like shit got weird. And they weren't even that 203 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:17,680 Speaker 2: right wing. They were a lot of them were just 204 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:19,960 Speaker 2: like yoga teachers one thing, you know, who didn't believe 205 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:20,679 Speaker 2: in vaccines. 206 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's we saw a lot of weird crossover like that. 207 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 1: I think during during the pandemic of vaccine skeptics, medicine skeptics, 208 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 1: experts in a field skeptics, we saw I think a 209 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:34,320 Speaker 1: kind of growth of a whole new sort of school 210 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:36,200 Speaker 1: of thought, which is like, if somebody who is a 211 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:39,199 Speaker 1: professional who spent their life studying and learning about something 212 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:42,680 Speaker 1: says this is what's going on, you have to you 213 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 1: just out of pocket reject it and do the opposite 214 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:47,839 Speaker 1: thing that they're telling you to do. You know, a 215 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 1: whole new well of doubt for experts. 216 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:55,839 Speaker 2: And this is related to the crisis of trust in 217 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:59,440 Speaker 2: institutional legitimacy, which I writes about, but it's something that 218 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:07,720 Speaker 2: is particularly evident in Germany. Weirdly, the thing that you're, 219 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:11,800 Speaker 2: the thing that you're describing of the sort of left 220 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 2: and the right making common cause in vaccine skepticism and 221 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:22,680 Speaker 2: mistrusted authority was probably at least looking across the world 222 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:25,560 Speaker 2: as I was writing this book, it was probably most 223 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 2: visible in Germany. And I don't entirely understand why, and 224 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:31,959 Speaker 2: like I'm half German, I feel like I understand Germany 225 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 2: better than most people. But yeah, it has this kind 226 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:39,200 Speaker 2: of atavistic right wing, which is scary but always a 227 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 2: relatively small minority. But it also has a very strong 228 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 2: tradition of you know, faith in nature and if it's natural, 229 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:50,920 Speaker 2: it's good, and if it's unnatural. It's bad, right, And 230 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 2: you know they love fresh air and udity and that 231 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:57,240 Speaker 2: kind of stuff, right, and all of that starts coming 232 00:12:57,320 --> 00:13:03,560 Speaker 2: out in a way that means that they fail to 233 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:08,520 Speaker 2: rise to the occasion of what I call the epistemic crisis, 234 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 2: where the main thing that happened, one of the main 235 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 2: things that happened in twenty twenty and twenty twenty one, 236 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 2: is that we had to just keep on learning new 237 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 2: shit all the time that the scientists were learning new things, 238 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:24,880 Speaker 2: and we were having to update, up rise and say, oh, 239 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 2: this is what I you know, I used to think this, 240 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:29,199 Speaker 2: and now I've got new information, and now I think that. 241 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 2: And you know, the Germans in particular, but like humans 242 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:35,200 Speaker 2: in general, are bout at that. We like to just 243 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:37,440 Speaker 2: have things that we believe and stick with them. And 244 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:41,000 Speaker 2: at some point, you know, you have described us very 245 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:43,679 Speaker 2: well as what happened in America, people just decided, like 246 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:46,680 Speaker 2: you know, there was a point in the early pandemic 247 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:48,559 Speaker 2: where you said that we shouldn't wear masks. So I'm 248 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 2: never going to wear masks, right. You know, someone told 249 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 2: me that like mRNA vaccines are dangerous. Therefore I'm just 250 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:57,320 Speaker 2: going to believe that and I'm not going to take 251 00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:01,080 Speaker 2: a vaccine, And these are not really the positions that 252 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:03,360 Speaker 2: they were argued into. It's hard to argue them out 253 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 2: of it, argue people out of it. But more to 254 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:11,440 Speaker 2: the point, it's just psychologically easier to have certainty about 255 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:15,400 Speaker 2: this disease, right, even though you know, Tony Fauci and 256 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 2: everyone else is on the television all the time like, 257 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:20,160 Speaker 2: we don't have certainty about the disease. There's a lot 258 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:22,080 Speaker 2: of things we don't know. We are going to change 259 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:24,560 Speaker 2: our mind. You have to understand, like this is brand new, 260 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 2: are still doing the science, and people just found it 261 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:31,840 Speaker 2: really hard to deal with that level of ignorance, right. 262 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 1: I mean, I think that generally speaking, when we hear 263 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:48,720 Speaker 1: experts speak on a topic, if they change their mind 264 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 1: a few months later, we find it extremely disconcerting and 265 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 1: frankly like it kind of hurts their credibility right to say, 266 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:58,160 Speaker 1: I mean, you should it should be something where that 267 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:00,920 Speaker 1: we can understand that some and says I've learned something 268 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:03,080 Speaker 1: new and now I've changed my opinion or I've changed 269 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 1: my findings on this thing, and you can listen to 270 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:07,720 Speaker 1: it because I'm an expert. But I think generally speaking, 271 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 1: when people change their tune and we don't see you 272 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 1: don't see all of the background work that goes into 273 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 1: someone to Fauci saying oh, okay, we thought you didn't 274 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 1: have to wear a mask, but now you do, or 275 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:17,560 Speaker 1: whatever it is, it just feels like, oh, he doesn't 276 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:19,400 Speaker 1: know what the fuck he's talking about, right, like that? 277 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 2: Exactly, Yeah, I find I find that like looking to 278 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:25,560 Speaker 2: when people change their mind, looking to when I changed 279 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 2: my mind, and like the things that I was wrong 280 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:32,600 Speaker 2: about in the pandemic is often the most interesting and 281 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 2: profound sort of insights that you get is going like, 282 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 2: exactly what was it that caused me to be so 283 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 2: sure about this, you know, on day one? And and 284 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 2: what was it that I was so wrong about that 285 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 2: caused me to force my mind to be changed on 286 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:50,920 Speaker 2: day two? You know, it's not really an economics books. 287 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:54,200 Speaker 2: One of the main things that I was wrong about 288 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:58,720 Speaker 2: was the whole idea the recession had been caused by 289 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 2: the virus, and therefore we would need to get a 290 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 2: grip on the virus in order to get out of 291 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 2: through a session. And in fact, we got out of 292 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:09,760 Speaker 2: the recession and had this incredibly fast and strong recovery 293 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:11,760 Speaker 2: without getting a grip on the virus at all. 294 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:13,680 Speaker 1: Right, I mean a lot of this conversation has been 295 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:16,120 Speaker 1: about very dark moments during the pandemic and sort of 296 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:19,440 Speaker 1: how society, you know, was collapsing in on itself. But 297 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 1: there's actually the book has a lot of bits in 298 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:27,280 Speaker 1: it about how kind of amazing the resilience of the 299 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 1: economy and of people was around this virus and around 300 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 1: this kind of completely unexpected moment. We just recently, my 301 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:39,640 Speaker 1: wife and I, with my brother in law and a 302 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 1: sister in law, opened a bookstore. And it's like, I've 303 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 1: never done anything in retail. I know nothing about retail. 304 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:48,440 Speaker 1: And you've talked about the amount of new people starting 305 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 1: businesses during the pandemic and sort of this attitude of 306 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 1: like you only and especially bookstores. 307 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 2: Have you seen how many independent bookstores that've opened up 308 00:16:57,200 --> 00:16:58,480 Speaker 2: in the post? He is that's true? 309 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:00,920 Speaker 1: Is that is there a huge boom independent bookstores? I 310 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 1: mean that sounds right to me. 311 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 2: But yeah, I mean, like literally this morning I was 312 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 2: walking past Bradley Tusk's new bookstore on Orchard Street. 313 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Bradley, task you. 314 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:12,360 Speaker 2: It's like but I mean like it's you know, it's 315 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 2: it's improbable for Joshua Polski to open the book, so 316 00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:17,399 Speaker 2: it's equally improbable for Bradleey test work. Right. 317 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:19,400 Speaker 1: Well, it's one of these things, right, it makes sense, 318 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 1: like tons of retail space suddenly opened up everywhere, right, 319 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:25,080 Speaker 1: I mean, think about how many retail businesses. I mean, 320 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 1: this is sort of depressing, but there were a lot 321 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:29,360 Speaker 1: of retail businesses that did not make it or did 322 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:32,720 Speaker 1: not make it in their in their pre pandemic form 323 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 1: through the pandemic, right, Like obviously restaurants had it, had difficulties, 324 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:39,440 Speaker 1: but there were lots of other places. 325 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:44,320 Speaker 2: But this is a really good example, right, is that, yes, 326 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:48,040 Speaker 2: we saw a bunch of restaurant closures, but what we 327 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 2: forget is that restaurants are just a terrible business to be. 328 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:52,160 Speaker 1: And then the kind of people. 329 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 2: Who opened ninety restaurants fail, I think is that this 330 00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:57,440 Speaker 2: is the this is the statistic that people we allect. Yeah, 331 00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 2: and and you know, it's partly because it's a bad 332 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:02,359 Speaker 2: business to be, and then partly because the kind of 333 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:04,560 Speaker 2: people who opened restaurants are good at making food and 334 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:07,399 Speaker 2: less good at running businesses. If you look at the 335 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:09,679 Speaker 2: number of restaurants that failed during the pandemic, like it 336 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:12,360 Speaker 2: was high, but it's always high. It wasn't so much 337 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:16,320 Speaker 2: higher than normal. And amazingly, the thing that astonished me 338 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:20,480 Speaker 2: was that I saw in New York City, which had 339 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 2: some of the strictest anti indoor dining rules in the country, 340 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:29,640 Speaker 2: just an astonishing number of new restaurants opening up, right, 341 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:32,800 Speaker 2: And You're like, who the hell would open up a 342 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 2: new restaurant in the face of like basically just economics 343 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:38,280 Speaker 2: that make no sense at all, and yet people did 344 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:39,240 Speaker 2: it over and over again. 345 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:40,760 Speaker 1: Right, Well, I mean this is That's one of the 346 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:43,159 Speaker 1: things that I think is so interesting about about some 347 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 1: of what you talk about, not just the really depressing 348 00:18:46,119 --> 00:18:48,360 Speaker 1: dark shit that happened during the pandemic, but so much 349 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:51,399 Speaker 1: of it that goes against what our expectations would have 350 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:54,000 Speaker 1: been and has thrown so many pieces of the economy 351 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:57,240 Speaker 1: into such an unexplored or unknown state. I think that's 352 00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:00,399 Speaker 1: a I mean, people people deciding to quit their jobs 353 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:02,960 Speaker 1: and open businesses. This apparently was the thing, people quitting 354 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 1: their jobs because they just didn't like it and going 355 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:07,719 Speaker 1: fuck it, I'm going to get another job. This was right. 356 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 1: This happened in huge numbers during during the pandemic, correct, 357 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:16,200 Speaker 1: the Great Resignation. Yeah, and like that's an unusual that's 358 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:18,360 Speaker 1: not a normal thing that people do. I mean, most 359 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 1: people stick with it. Most people are like, I need 360 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:20,800 Speaker 1: this job. 361 00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:23,880 Speaker 2: But this was this was the main theme that runs 362 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:25,320 Speaker 2: through the book, or one of the main things. It's 363 00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:29,840 Speaker 2: this idea of yolo, right, right, and that a mass 364 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 2: mortality event, you know, like COVID which killed six million 365 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:37,719 Speaker 2: people and one million Americans, Like that reminds you of 366 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 2: how precious life is, especially when it's so top of 367 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:44,200 Speaker 2: mind for so long, and you're like, why on earth 368 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:47,439 Speaker 2: would I spend my one precious life working for some 369 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:51,920 Speaker 2: boss that I hate, you know, And when I have 370 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:53,520 Speaker 2: this one life and I'm going to make the most 371 00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:55,399 Speaker 2: of it and people, I'm going to follow my dreams. 372 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 2: And people did this over and over again in America 373 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:00,760 Speaker 2: and around the world, but especially in the US. They 374 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:04,760 Speaker 2: had this opportunity. There was an eviction moratorium, right, which 375 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 2: was imposed by the Center for Disease Controls, and like, 376 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 2: you know, this is kind of amazing that this was 377 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 2: a public health. 378 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:12,120 Speaker 1: Thing that they did. 379 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:15,560 Speaker 2: They were like, we can't have people being evicted out 380 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:18,400 Speaker 2: into the street when there's a pandemic raging, but that 381 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:23,480 Speaker 2: eviction moratorium wound up helping enormously in terms of like 382 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:26,120 Speaker 2: new company formation. People are like, I can actually take 383 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 2: a risk now because I don't need to worry about losing. 384 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 1: My house, right, I mean, weirdly, it almost makes a 385 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 1: great argument for like the universal income, universal basic income, 386 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:39,960 Speaker 1: or you know, socialism on some grander scale. I mean, 387 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:41,520 Speaker 1: it does seem to be like, with just a little 388 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:44,240 Speaker 1: bit of help from the government, there's all sorts of 389 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:47,240 Speaker 1: understain and good things that can happen to people. Again, 390 00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:50,399 Speaker 1: I'm not making the argument, but it does seem to 391 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:53,960 Speaker 1: suggest that a little bit more help, a top down help, 392 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 1: can be quite a tool for humanity at large. 393 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 2: One of the chapters I have in the book is 394 00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:08,720 Speaker 2: basically an extended metaphor about Steve Mnushin is superhero. You know. Again, 395 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 2: people don't love to read that because he was such 396 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:15,480 Speaker 2: a lickspittle when it came to Trump, But in terms 397 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:17,879 Speaker 2: of fiscal policy, he did really amazing things, and we 398 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 2: did really see that taking you know, fourteen hundred dollars 399 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:27,120 Speaker 2: checks and just depositing them into everyone's bank account had 400 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:32,160 Speaker 2: astonishingly powerful effects on the American economy and on making 401 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:35,920 Speaker 2: people happier that we just saw a new survey count 402 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:39,719 Speaker 2: come out last week saying that never in the history 403 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:42,399 Speaker 2: of polling have people been happier in their jobs than 404 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:43,200 Speaker 2: they are right now. 405 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 1: I mean, that's interesting because you don't get you get 406 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:49,160 Speaker 1: the impression that, well, at least you get the impression 407 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:51,399 Speaker 1: from certain political parties that people are in just like 408 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:56,160 Speaker 1: absolutely dire states right now or dire strait. Rather, are 409 00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:58,640 Speaker 1: we better off or worse off in America right now 410 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 1: than we were pre pandemic. There's pieces of this that 411 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 1: would suggest that we're better off, but like, what is 412 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 1: the actual state of play? Because politically you can't get 413 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:08,040 Speaker 1: a real read on it. 414 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:12,040 Speaker 2: So I mean, there are lots of ways to measure that, 415 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:17,679 Speaker 2: and there is a very strong and important school of 416 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 2: thought that basically just says, I'm sorry, what a million 417 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 2: people just died, some like large multiple of that are 418 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 2: suffering from long COVID and will continue to do so 419 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:33,080 Speaker 2: for many years. You know, We've had this extraordinarily traumatic 420 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:37,679 Speaker 2: mass mortality event. We've had a huge mental health crisis, 421 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:40,240 Speaker 2: especially from children who weren't able to socialize in the 422 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:41,679 Speaker 2: way that they need to be able to do to 423 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:45,800 Speaker 2: develop and so on and so forth, and like, how 424 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:48,600 Speaker 2: can you even ask whether this was good or bad 425 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:50,679 Speaker 2: because it was obviously terrible. 426 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 1: Well, I mean, it's obviously bad. I mean, and there's 427 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:54,840 Speaker 1: no person who wouldn't say, like, I would have rather 428 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 1: not done the pandemic. I mean. 429 00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 2: But then, you know, you look at the economy is 430 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:03,560 Speaker 2: incredibly strong. Unemployment is at record lows. Black unemployment is 431 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 2: below five percent for the first time ever. You have 432 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:09,359 Speaker 2: people happier in their jobs than they've ever been. There 433 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 2: was this great reset. People got to rebuild and rediscover 434 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:20,439 Speaker 2: what they wanted and economically and psychologically, there is a 435 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 2: case to be made that we are really actually in 436 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:26,960 Speaker 2: a better place now that you know, those of us 437 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:30,160 Speaker 2: who are capable of working from home have much more flexibility, 438 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:35,480 Speaker 2: much more happiness. That the pandemic has allowed us to 439 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:37,240 Speaker 2: look at our lives and get rid of the things 440 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:39,960 Speaker 2: we didn't like and double down on the things we 441 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:43,880 Speaker 2: wanted to double down on. And we have this increase 442 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:48,440 Speaker 2: in compassion, and we have now a proof of concept 443 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 2: of the world coming together to act in unity to 444 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:58,520 Speaker 2: address a major existential risk. You know, in March twenty twenty, 445 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 2: everyone just stopped in order to bendicov and buy us 446 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:05,160 Speaker 2: time to develop therapeutics and vaccines and stuff. And right, 447 00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:08,880 Speaker 2: the world did that collectively and it worked. And if 448 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 2: we can do that, then maybe, just maybe we can 449 00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 2: come together to address climate change, you know, which is 450 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:19,159 Speaker 2: something which I think twenty twenty, like no one it 451 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:21,480 Speaker 2: wasn't even possible. Now I'm not saying it's likely, but 452 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:22,400 Speaker 2: it's possible. 453 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 1: Right. Well, I mean you need a mortal threat, direct 454 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:28,119 Speaker 1: mortal threat, I think, to get people to come together. 455 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:30,359 Speaker 1: I mean did people First off, did people come together? 456 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:33,400 Speaker 1: Because I mean my recollection of yes, of course, there 457 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:36,200 Speaker 1: was this moment where we all stopped. That definitely happened. 458 00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 1: There was definitely a moment where we went from this 459 00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:42,199 Speaker 1: is going to blow over, This is just you know, 460 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:44,119 Speaker 1: it's just gonna be a few weeks of weirdness and 461 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:45,879 Speaker 1: then everythy's gonna be fine. I mean, I don't know 462 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:48,080 Speaker 1: who actually thought that, but certainly there was some sense 463 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 1: in the air. I remember being in a meeting where 464 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:54,480 Speaker 1: people were like, this is going to be over in 465 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:56,639 Speaker 1: a couple of weeks. It's like one or two weeks 466 00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 1: before lockdown. I was in a meeting with some people, 467 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:00,359 Speaker 1: and they were like, I think this is just going 468 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:02,320 Speaker 1: to it's like a week or two, people are going 469 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:03,680 Speaker 1: to feel better, they're going to come back. 470 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:06,919 Speaker 2: Well, it wasn't even that, it wasn't even a predictive thing. 471 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:10,440 Speaker 2: It was just it was so anything else was so inconceivable. 472 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:14,440 Speaker 2: Right of if you remember, after after nine to eleven, 473 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:19,399 Speaker 2: there was a lot of physical devastation in Lower Manhattan, 474 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 2: which happened to be also where the stock market was, 475 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:26,600 Speaker 2: and it was so important for the stock market for 476 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:30,760 Speaker 2: people to physically come into work in the stock market 477 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:34,679 Speaker 2: building that they had to close the stock market for 478 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:37,119 Speaker 2: like three or four days until they could, like you know, 479 00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:39,439 Speaker 2: get rid of all of the ash and allow people 480 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 2: back in. And that was the world in two thousand 481 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:49,399 Speaker 2: and one. The entire business world basically couldn't work unless 482 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:51,200 Speaker 2: people came back to the office. And so if people 483 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:53,960 Speaker 2: were being told you need to stay out of the 484 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:57,399 Speaker 2: office for like today and maybe tomorrow, people are like, Okay, 485 00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 2: I'll stay out today and maybe tomorrow. But obviously, you know, 486 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:02,760 Speaker 2: this is not a world where we can do this 487 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:05,359 Speaker 2: for more than a few days at a time, Like 488 00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 2: just n nine to eleven, We're going to have to 489 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:09,199 Speaker 2: go back and reopen. So the market's going to reopen. 490 00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 2: Except that's not what happened. You know, all of the 491 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:16,439 Speaker 2: banks found that they could continue operating. Every bank in 492 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:19,679 Speaker 2: the world basically continued operating without people coming into the office. 493 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:23,040 Speaker 2: Right The markets, you know, went down, but they were open, 494 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:27,440 Speaker 2: and we almost immediately in the early days of March 495 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,480 Speaker 2: twenty twenty, managed to see the economy moving. I mean, 496 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,359 Speaker 2: you and I are journalists. We were working more feverishly 497 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:37,359 Speaker 2: than you know, anyone, and we not on anyone. There 498 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:39,640 Speaker 2: were a lot of people working hard. We're not working 499 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:43,720 Speaker 2: that hard, but we we you know, we were working, 500 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:46,200 Speaker 2: and we were working hard, and we were working harder 501 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:49,159 Speaker 2: than normal, and we were producing more normal and our 502 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:52,760 Speaker 2: work was more important than normal. And what we were 503 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 2: doing was entirely remote. And we discovered that we could 504 00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:01,240 Speaker 2: on the fly build this new system of the means 505 00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:03,520 Speaker 2: of production could be distributed in the way that no 506 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:06,080 Speaker 2: one really understood that it was possible before that. 507 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:09,000 Speaker 1: I wrote a piece early on in the pandemic called 508 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:11,400 Speaker 1: Thank God for the Internet, which was the first time 509 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:13,439 Speaker 1: in a long time that I had been like, I 510 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:15,919 Speaker 1: don't know, you probably have the same feeling where you 511 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:19,240 Speaker 1: spend many years on the Internet. Then you saw the 512 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:21,320 Speaker 1: worst of the Internet and sort of the Trump era, Like, 513 00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:23,960 Speaker 1: in my opinion, the Internet that I loved, that I 514 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:27,439 Speaker 1: thought was so such a wonderful playground became like a 515 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:30,919 Speaker 1: kind of nightmare zone for the Trump most of the 516 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:34,320 Speaker 1: Trump years, and then the pandemic happened, and it was like, ah, 517 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:36,480 Speaker 1: the culmination of all of the worst things. It's like, 518 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:38,960 Speaker 1: now we're literally like dying. Now we're all going to die. 519 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:41,879 Speaker 1: And there was a pretty early period. I mean when 520 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:45,480 Speaker 1: I wrote about it, it was Moe Williams, who it 521 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:48,120 Speaker 1: writes kids books Don't Let the Pigeon Drive the Bus. 522 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:50,359 Speaker 1: I don't know if you're familiar with the book series 523 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 1: or not, but he had was doing these like live 524 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:56,760 Speaker 1: let's all draw together workshops on YouTube and it was like, 525 00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 1: you know, hundreds of thousands of kids like watching and 526 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:02,240 Speaker 1: doing that, and she was doing it, and I was like, 527 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:06,080 Speaker 1: holy fuck, you know, God, what would life be like like? Yeah, 528 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:07,960 Speaker 1: for as bad as the Internet has seen for the 529 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:13,400 Speaker 1: last several years, you know, it's impossible to imagine imagine 530 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:15,680 Speaker 1: the pandemic with no Internet. I mean, to your point 531 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:19,240 Speaker 1: about the nineteen eighteen you know, flu People didn't have 532 00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:21,760 Speaker 1: a way to communicate really with each other about what 533 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,240 Speaker 1: was going on or how they were doing, or techniques 534 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:26,440 Speaker 1: to stay alive or any of those things. 535 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:31,320 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, you know after nine to eleven, the logacy 536 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:34,040 Speaker 2: basically sprung up. Nine eleven was this late big thing 537 00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 2: that everyone decided to blog about and that you like, 538 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:40,400 Speaker 2: have you heard of nine to eleven early blogs? I 539 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:44,320 Speaker 2: remember this thing eleven very very like nine to eleven eccentric. 540 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:49,000 Speaker 2: But back then, you know, we had this very open 541 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:52,760 Speaker 2: and free wheeling and fabulous and fun Internet, but it 542 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:58,560 Speaker 2: definitely didn't have the kind of bandwidth to have live 543 00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:04,480 Speaker 2: videos streaming, right, and yeah, almost everyone with Internet had 544 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:08,480 Speaker 2: enough had enough bandwidth to do live video streaming. Come 545 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:13,840 Speaker 2: twenty twenty was enormous for Moe Williams. YouTube's for you know, 546 00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:21,000 Speaker 2: allowing the zoom calls and the facetimes Dot Club kept 547 00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:24,600 Speaker 2: us together. There was the Clubhouse, which wasn't video, but yeah, 548 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:27,960 Speaker 2: there was you know, I remember in the twenty twenty 549 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 2: election there was this crazy fundraiser for the Democrats which 550 00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:35,640 Speaker 2: is basically the entire living cast of the Princess Bride 551 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:38,720 Speaker 2: or getting together and just like rereading the whole thing, 552 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:41,000 Speaker 2: and it was just it felt like a very magical, 553 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:42,280 Speaker 2: remote thing. 554 00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:44,800 Speaker 1: They did that imagine They had that Imagine video with 555 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:47,960 Speaker 1: Galgado that I said about that the better. Yeah. 556 00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:53,320 Speaker 2: But and then more, you know, prosaically we had Slack 557 00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:58,360 Speaker 2: and Zoom, which you know, saved countless companies. They came 558 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:01,280 Speaker 2: through in this clutch time when they when needed most right, 559 00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:05,120 Speaker 2: and we managed to get through this period of like, 560 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:07,760 Speaker 2: you know, shit, how are we going to be able 561 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:12,680 Speaker 2: to cope without offices? And mostly we did too. I 562 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:13,880 Speaker 2: think everyone's surprised. 563 00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:26,000 Speaker 1: I mean, I remember having this realization on a fairly 564 00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:28,960 Speaker 1: regular basis, or this kind of thought that in a 565 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:33,520 Speaker 1: popular fiction when the pandemic is depicted or an apocalyptic 566 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:36,240 Speaker 1: sort of world ending event, which is how COVID felt 567 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:39,760 Speaker 1: at the beginning, you imagine you're like fighting zombies or 568 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:41,840 Speaker 1: people are dying like you know, their heads are exploding 569 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:43,960 Speaker 1: around you or whatever kind of you know, total like 570 00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:48,040 Speaker 1: apocalyptic insanity. Nobody made a movie or wrote a book 571 00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:50,600 Speaker 1: about how like the apocalypse would be you sitting at 572 00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:54,680 Speaker 1: home like working like you you'd be exactly like on slack, 573 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:56,880 Speaker 1: like no think about the I mean I remember, you know, 574 00:30:57,480 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 1: at the time you know, at that time, I was 575 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:02,080 Speaker 1: managing a bunch of different news teams, and I would 576 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:04,200 Speaker 1: sit in slack with them and you'd be like covering 577 00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:06,720 Speaker 1: the news, you know, talking about like oh, Fauci says, 578 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:08,239 Speaker 1: now you've got to wear a mask or you're going 579 00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:10,640 Speaker 1: to die, and like, oh, it's like now it's definitely 580 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:13,240 Speaker 1: airborne and it's coming through the events and whatever. You know, 581 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:15,840 Speaker 1: you were on slack. You weren't like in a bunker, 582 00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:19,560 Speaker 1: yeah right, you were looking out the window and not 583 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:22,640 Speaker 1: able to interact with humanity. But other than that, everything 584 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:25,960 Speaker 1: seemed normal, right, Like I mean normal with quotes around it. 585 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:31,160 Speaker 2: But I had a pre existing intellectual awareness that a 586 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:34,840 Speaker 2: global pandemic could strike at any time. But when I 587 00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:37,800 Speaker 2: thought about what it might be like to live through 588 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:40,080 Speaker 2: a pandemic, and I didn't think about it very often. 589 00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:44,120 Speaker 2: What I thought about were, you know, people getting sick, 590 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:47,720 Speaker 2: people dying, you know, And then if you read about plagues, 591 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:50,960 Speaker 2: that's what you read about, the boobos, the deaths. That 592 00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:53,120 Speaker 2: what I called in the book the moor Ryan vectus, 593 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:55,360 Speaker 2: which for those of you who don't have digitens to hand, 594 00:31:55,520 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 2: just means rats. Yeah, most of us, not sick, most 595 00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:03,920 Speaker 2: of the time, but we were distanced, and so the 596 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:05,959 Speaker 2: experience of COVID was not one of the sick, right, 597 00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:09,560 Speaker 2: The experiences COVID was one of of like, what the 598 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:11,600 Speaker 2: hell am I going to do with my kids when 599 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:12,440 Speaker 2: they're not at school? 600 00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:14,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean most people didn't get really sick, sort 601 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:17,280 Speaker 1: of one of the one of the problems with COVID 602 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:19,160 Speaker 1: not and this is a good thing, it's a great thing, 603 00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:21,479 Speaker 1: but like one of the issues with educating people are 604 00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:24,200 Speaker 1: making people feel like it was real. I feel like, 605 00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:28,000 Speaker 1: was that it was you didn't feel it if a 606 00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:31,600 Speaker 1: family member didn't die, right, or if you didn't know 607 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:33,800 Speaker 1: a good friend who died or got really sick and 608 00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:35,720 Speaker 1: was you know, near death or whatever, you didn't feel 609 00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:38,480 Speaker 1: like that kind of palpable. There wasn't a sense that 610 00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:40,280 Speaker 1: it was happening at all. And that's why I think 611 00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:42,120 Speaker 1: a lot of people kind of went crazy, right, Like 612 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 1: a lot of people were like, why are we still 613 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 1: wearing masks? Why do we have to stay home? I 614 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:49,360 Speaker 1: Mean a big part of what happened there was like 615 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:52,040 Speaker 1: a little bit of people are kind of like, well, 616 00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:53,520 Speaker 1: if I don't see it, and if I don't feel it, 617 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:55,520 Speaker 1: if I don't hear it, like is it even really happening, 618 00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:57,520 Speaker 1: Which is a kind of a deranged way to think 619 00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:00,760 Speaker 1: about it. But you know, I mean you mentioned like 620 00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:04,520 Speaker 1: this sort of Yolo mentality which runs through everything that 621 00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:07,080 Speaker 1: happened or many things that happened with the economy and 622 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:08,560 Speaker 1: with the way we work and the way we live, 623 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:10,840 Speaker 1: and that so much what the book is about is 624 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:12,600 Speaker 1: the sense of like you only live once, I mean 625 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:16,000 Speaker 1: literally right like that, you know, suddenly your life feels 626 00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:20,160 Speaker 1: much more precious. And also you start thinking about, well, 627 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:22,200 Speaker 1: if this is the if it's the end times or whatever, 628 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:24,120 Speaker 1: maybe I had to do the things that I wasn't 629 00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:26,880 Speaker 1: going to do or try the things I never tried. Obviously, 630 00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:29,600 Speaker 1: the Yolo mentality, a lot of that stems from the 631 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,040 Speaker 1: use of that term, stems from what happened with Wall 632 00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:37,240 Speaker 1: Street bets and Meme stocks and NFTs as a companion 633 00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:39,640 Speaker 1: and crypto as a companion to that, Like if this 634 00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:43,280 Speaker 1: moment of really weird things like you're talking about, Like 635 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:45,920 Speaker 1: we've talked about a lot like mass economic sort of things, 636 00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:48,760 Speaker 1: but there was this thing about how money started to 637 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:51,000 Speaker 1: seem to people that I feel like is very unique 638 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:52,440 Speaker 1: to this moment can you talk a little bit about 639 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:55,560 Speaker 1: like the game stop, the sort of meme stock moment 640 00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:58,800 Speaker 1: and how that was juiced by or if it was 641 00:33:58,920 --> 00:33:59,960 Speaker 1: juiced by the pan. 642 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:03,080 Speaker 2: Oh, I mean, it could never have happened without the pandemic. 643 00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:05,480 Speaker 2: You had a whole bunch of people sitting at home. 644 00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:08,800 Speaker 2: I guess I say, like they weren't worried about getting evicted. 645 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:10,880 Speaker 1: Like I'm good time to trade. 646 00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:13,400 Speaker 2: There was an eviction moratorium. They you know, they had 647 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:15,440 Speaker 2: a lot of time on their hands, and they had 648 00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:20,040 Speaker 2: fourteen hundred stimulus checks, fourteen hundred dollars stimulus checks sitting 649 00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:22,400 Speaker 2: in their bank account needing to be spent on something, 650 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:27,320 Speaker 2: and they had for the first time the opportunity to 651 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:33,520 Speaker 2: engage in in genuinely social stock market speculation that you know, 652 00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:37,680 Speaker 2: Wall Street bets was the most prominent of the social 653 00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:42,120 Speaker 2: vectors where people would trade trading ideas. But you know, 654 00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:45,040 Speaker 2: for all that people had tried to do like social 655 00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:47,520 Speaker 2: trading in the past, it never really took off in 656 00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:50,239 Speaker 2: the way that it did in the early months of 657 00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:53,560 Speaker 2: twenty twenty one. And at the same time, yeah, there 658 00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:56,560 Speaker 2: was this feeling that money had ceased to have any 659 00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:58,960 Speaker 2: real meaning, you know, it's not something you know, we 660 00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:02,279 Speaker 2: were spending it on crazy things because what else were 661 00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:05,520 Speaker 2: you going to do? Right, And there was a lot 662 00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:08,080 Speaker 2: of it sloshing around the economy because of all of 663 00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:12,920 Speaker 2: the fiscal stimulus, and instead of investing being this like 664 00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:17,040 Speaker 2: very serious kind of like I should save up carefully 665 00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:19,000 Speaker 2: every month. 666 00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:20,440 Speaker 1: And write and put a little on the four oh 667 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:21,320 Speaker 1: one k or whatever. 668 00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:24,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it just became it became this game. 669 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:27,080 Speaker 2: It became a fun game, and it became a way 670 00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:29,960 Speaker 2: to get rich quick, right, And you realized everyone realized 671 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:33,359 Speaker 2: on some level they probably weren't going to get rich quick, 672 00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:35,960 Speaker 2: but like, at least it would be a fun way 673 00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:39,719 Speaker 2: to try right, right, and investing for many people, you know, 674 00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:43,239 Speaker 2: even back in the fifties and sixties, you know, it 675 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:47,279 Speaker 2: was always like an enjoyable hobby that certain type of 676 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:50,640 Speaker 2: like white men would trade stock tips on the golf course, 677 00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:53,320 Speaker 2: and you know it was social in that sense. It 678 00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:55,480 Speaker 2: just was turbo judged. It was much faster, and it 679 00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:57,480 Speaker 2: was much more aggressive, and it was much more like 680 00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:02,600 Speaker 2: you know, going to the moon and swapping between meme 681 00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:06,239 Speaker 2: stocks and cryptocurrencies and should we buy a you know, 682 00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:10,279 Speaker 2: monkey jpeg because that's going to make us rich. 683 00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:13,799 Speaker 1: It's very easy to understand people going, hey, we're all 684 00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:15,759 Speaker 1: going to invest in this thing, or like, actually we can, 685 00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:17,840 Speaker 1: we can pump this stock up if we all go 686 00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:20,200 Speaker 1: in on it or whatever. You know, as a group, 687 00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:22,560 Speaker 1: a social kind of experiment that makes a lot of sense. 688 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:24,560 Speaker 1: It makes a lot less sense when it is the 689 00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:28,759 Speaker 1: monkey jpeg when it is this esoteric. I mean, as 690 00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:31,440 Speaker 1: soon as NFT's like that, just the hint of it 691 00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:37,360 Speaker 1: being an idea started, it became like a multi million 692 00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:39,920 Speaker 1: billion dollar business, right, I mean, it became a It 693 00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:42,480 Speaker 1: was like, I mean, what's the timeline from like NFTs. 694 00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:44,400 Speaker 1: I mean, I remember. What I do remember is that 695 00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:47,160 Speaker 1: at the time there was we had a website called input, 696 00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:49,680 Speaker 1: which is and rest and peace no longer exists, like 697 00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:52,719 Speaker 1: many of the things have begun during the pandemic. But 698 00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:56,120 Speaker 1: we did an article on NFTs in I want to say, 699 00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:01,640 Speaker 1: fall of twenty nineteen, and by the summer of twenty twenty, 700 00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:05,520 Speaker 1: it was like people, the people thing was happening. I mean, 701 00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:09,360 Speaker 1: when was his sophobes with sophobes He had Christie's. 702 00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:13,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, there were these two, these two like crypto whales, 703 00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:16,800 Speaker 2: started bidding against each other. To try and and I 704 00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:21,840 Speaker 2: think it was almost coordinated that they both wanted the 705 00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:27,200 Speaker 2: biggest possible number for that peace, not because they thought 706 00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:31,000 Speaker 2: it was worth it, but because and they were quite 707 00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:33,480 Speaker 2: right about this that like if they could get it 708 00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:36,960 Speaker 2: to be worth more than like you know, Jess John's 709 00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:40,880 Speaker 2: or a Picasso or Velaskaz, then at that point that 710 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:45,600 Speaker 2: would ratify NFTs as an asset class and everyone would 711 00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:48,000 Speaker 2: just start buying all manner about NFTs. 712 00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:49,799 Speaker 1: And that's exactly what happened. I'd be so it. 713 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:53,880 Speaker 2: Really really kicked off the NFT frenzy. And you know, 714 00:37:54,000 --> 00:38:00,439 Speaker 2: people forget that NFTs were really invented by and Neil 715 00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:04,600 Speaker 2: Dash and Kevin McCoy back in like twenty fourteen, but 716 00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:08,040 Speaker 2: no one really noticed, no one really cared, and then 717 00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:11,000 Speaker 2: they just kind of sat there hibernating for a while 718 00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:16,080 Speaker 2: until until the pandemic just came along to make the 719 00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:17,000 Speaker 2: whole thing explode. 720 00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:18,920 Speaker 1: Well, people are just like, Okay, maybe there's something we 721 00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:20,799 Speaker 1: can there's an idea we can pull off the shelf. 722 00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:23,640 Speaker 1: We're running low on ideas right now, so I mean 723 00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:26,080 Speaker 1: it's interesting. And also a Neil wrote a piece I 724 00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:29,600 Speaker 1: believe like at the peak of NFT. What is the 725 00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:32,080 Speaker 1: what is the word for when people are buying things 726 00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:34,759 Speaker 1: blindly like maniacs. There's some word for this that I 727 00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:37,720 Speaker 1: can't think of, but tulipmania. Yeah, tulip mania. 728 00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:40,520 Speaker 2: I do I do in the book when I my 729 00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:45,000 Speaker 2: my copy editor was very buy the book in terms 730 00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:47,239 Speaker 2: of like, whenever I used an acronym, I'd always do 731 00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:49,520 Speaker 2: it to spell out what it stood for, right, But 732 00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:52,719 Speaker 2: when it came to NFTs, I insisted that we just 733 00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:55,360 Speaker 2: said that what this stands for is newfangled tulips. 734 00:38:57,000 --> 00:38:59,080 Speaker 1: Is that in the book? Cause it's in the book? Okay? 735 00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:01,239 Speaker 1: I bought it over that, But I was reading the 736 00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:03,879 Speaker 1: NFT part. Actually I highlighted a bit from the NFT part. 737 00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:07,440 Speaker 1: You say, connoisseurship in the NFT world was worthless. Art 738 00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:10,000 Speaker 1: was valued not on its intrinsic qualities, but rather on 739 00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:12,319 Speaker 1: its status as a meme. Then I put a question 740 00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:15,480 Speaker 1: mark next to it, because is that not just what 741 00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:18,919 Speaker 1: art is? You say intrinsic, but what is intrinsic about? 742 00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:20,920 Speaker 1: And by the way, I'm not defending NFT art, much 743 00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:25,080 Speaker 1: of which is astonishingly bad. Like I mean, I've said 744 00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:26,279 Speaker 1: this before. I might have even said it on the 745 00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:29,200 Speaker 1: last podcast that I considered the NFT Boom to be 746 00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:32,319 Speaker 1: the Olympics of bad art. And I will take that one, 747 00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:34,040 Speaker 1: you know, I will stand by that one until I die. 748 00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:38,120 Speaker 1: But isn't art really just about what is valuable? I mean, yes, 749 00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:40,320 Speaker 1: I understand there's critics, and I understand there's a classical 750 00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:44,160 Speaker 1: definition of what is great art, and there's a market 751 00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:47,520 Speaker 1: built around that. But is it not really just the 752 00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:48,759 Speaker 1: same idea? Yep? 753 00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:50,560 Speaker 2: I read about this in the book A bit right, 754 00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:55,960 Speaker 2: that we are seeing the meme ification of the world, 755 00:39:56,600 --> 00:40:01,000 Speaker 2: Like the uh the people are buying is younger and 756 00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:04,280 Speaker 2: younger and less and less sport because it's particularly important 757 00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:08,040 Speaker 2: or particularly good, right, you know. The classic example would 758 00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:11,040 Speaker 2: be someone like Couse, who sells for millions even though 759 00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:13,200 Speaker 2: his art is objectively terrible, and I think most of 760 00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:15,880 Speaker 2: the people who buy it understand his arts I mean 761 00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:16,920 Speaker 2: objectively terrible. 762 00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:19,640 Speaker 1: But I've actually been in context when if you look 763 00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:23,239 Speaker 1: at cause the cause art in context of what it is, 764 00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:27,000 Speaker 1: where it comes from, and how was initially expressed, has 765 00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:31,640 Speaker 1: some historical context and also legitimately was kind of a 766 00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:35,800 Speaker 1: new form at the beginning of its sort of well. 767 00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:38,800 Speaker 2: I mean Okay, so it does come out of a 768 00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:42,759 Speaker 2: tradition in the street art that is real and interesting, 769 00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:45,080 Speaker 2: and there are real and interesting street artists. I don't 770 00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:47,719 Speaker 2: know if he was ever like he was briefly a 771 00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:50,239 Speaker 2: street artist, but he came much later, like there were 772 00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:52,800 Speaker 2: much more important and much better street artists. 773 00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:55,160 Speaker 1: Again, I'm not making a case for causes like a 774 00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:57,520 Speaker 1: great but I can understand that I can understand the 775 00:40:57,600 --> 00:40:58,560 Speaker 1: market for cause. 776 00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:01,239 Speaker 2: The second coming of like John Michelle Baska or even 777 00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:04,480 Speaker 2: Keith Herring. He is not right, right, but put that 778 00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:09,120 Speaker 2: to one side, Like, you're absolutely right that the level 779 00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:14,160 Speaker 2: of connoisseurship needed to understand the art that people get 780 00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:19,920 Speaker 2: really excited about has been declining steadily for decades, and 781 00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:25,080 Speaker 2: that trend accelerated during the pandemic. And the art that 782 00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:28,800 Speaker 2: sells to millions is getting dumber and dumber, and the 783 00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:32,480 Speaker 2: art that requires a large amount of connoisseurship. You know, 784 00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:36,840 Speaker 2: if you are trying to sell some beautiful seventeenth century 785 00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:39,400 Speaker 2: Dutch still life or something, you know, the number of 786 00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:43,399 Speaker 2: people who are interested in that is getting smaller and smaller, right, 787 00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:47,160 Speaker 2: because they're all too busy chasing some you know, twenty 788 00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:49,840 Speaker 2: five year old African Bundakin, who is going to be 789 00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:51,440 Speaker 2: you know, here today and gone tomorrow. 790 00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:54,640 Speaker 1: I think NFTs, the whole thing is kind of breaks 791 00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:56,279 Speaker 1: down on a fundamental level. I was going to say. 792 00:41:56,280 --> 00:41:58,759 Speaker 1: I was saying that Nil and Neil Dash wrote a 793 00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:02,680 Speaker 1: piece basically saying that underlying technology of whatever everybody's using 794 00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:05,600 Speaker 1: right now is not it. It is not the thing 795 00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:08,440 Speaker 1: that would create an NFT in the way that I 796 00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:10,759 Speaker 1: think he and envisioned, or that would make sense for 797 00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:14,200 Speaker 1: the actual like sort of collectibility of it, if you want, 798 00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:18,279 Speaker 1: or the preciousness of the singular versus the you know, 799 00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:20,080 Speaker 1: the copies, right, And. 800 00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:22,440 Speaker 2: Just to be clear, like what happened in the NFT 801 00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:25,400 Speaker 2: boom was super interesting that this thing that was designed 802 00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:29,920 Speaker 2: to be a way of allowing people to own and 803 00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:35,520 Speaker 2: sell digital art very rapidly, like that whole concept of 804 00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:37,640 Speaker 2: digital arn't And like the people thing, which was like 805 00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:40,520 Speaker 2: how what I think of NFT one point zero kind 806 00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:42,920 Speaker 2: of fell by the wayside to be replaced by the 807 00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:45,840 Speaker 2: social thing of the monkey JPEGs and the rocks and 808 00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:48,200 Speaker 2: the squiggles and the penguins and all of the other 809 00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:51,719 Speaker 2: things slurp juices where they where they like sell ten 810 00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:54,720 Speaker 2: thousand similar things, and everyone wants to join the club, 811 00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:57,759 Speaker 2: and it's really the metaphor there is not the art 812 00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:02,280 Speaker 2: world anymore, the metaphor that is now just the limited 813 00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:07,279 Speaker 2: membership club where everyone wants to get a membership card. Right. 814 00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:09,640 Speaker 1: But of course, broken down, it breaks down to the 815 00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:12,040 Speaker 1: fundamental level, which is that the thing that is so 816 00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:14,680 Speaker 1: valuable and collectible and only the special members can have 817 00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:19,080 Speaker 1: it was actually just an actual jpeg or whatever a ping. 818 00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:22,640 Speaker 1: I mean, they are just it is just a copyable image, right, 819 00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:25,319 Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's the But I think all 820 00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:27,200 Speaker 1: of this it kind of brings me like in talking 821 00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:29,960 Speaker 1: about the NFTs, because it's such a it's such a 822 00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:33,840 Speaker 1: bizarre the offshoot of crypto, right, it's an offshoot of 823 00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:36,200 Speaker 1: this kind of state of being, certainly of the Wall 824 00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:38,800 Speaker 1: Street bet stuff of like community sort of building around 825 00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:42,479 Speaker 1: like investing, and sort of club membership in these things 826 00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:46,520 Speaker 1: that are centered around money and money making. But the 827 00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:48,839 Speaker 1: things that people did during the pandemic and maybe all 828 00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:51,200 Speaker 1: of the kind of side effects of it now that 829 00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:55,360 Speaker 1: we're experiencing, is it a bit that it felt like 830 00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:57,919 Speaker 1: for the first time, maybe ever for a lot of people, 831 00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:02,960 Speaker 1: maybe for everybody that whatever the structure of reality that 832 00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:05,360 Speaker 1: we've been living inside of, like this thing that we 833 00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:09,760 Speaker 1: all consider to be a shared reality, where there's people 834 00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:12,160 Speaker 1: who know what's happening, and people who don't know what's happening, 835 00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:13,960 Speaker 1: people who are in control, and people who are not 836 00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:18,000 Speaker 1: in control. That to some extent, once you force everybody 837 00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:21,719 Speaker 1: inside their house and once everybody is online, and once 838 00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:24,120 Speaker 1: Fauci one day is saying wear a mask and the 839 00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:27,239 Speaker 1: next day saying don't wear a mask, there's a bit 840 00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:31,000 Speaker 1: of all of this that is like stemming from a 841 00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:36,080 Speaker 1: sense that suddenly people had an autonomy and lack of 842 00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:39,840 Speaker 1: control that previously had never seemed accessible to them. Like 843 00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:43,680 Speaker 1: on a kind of fundamental philosophical basis, Am I crazy 844 00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:45,239 Speaker 1: for thinking this? Does it even make any sense? Or 845 00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:45,640 Speaker 1: do I sound? 846 00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:49,800 Speaker 2: It totally makes sense? And that's what really undergoded great resignation. 847 00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:54,040 Speaker 2: You know, the phenomenon that was incredibly visible in the 848 00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:58,160 Speaker 2: economic statistics about there's this wonderful survey called JOLTS, the 849 00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:02,239 Speaker 2: Job Openings and Labor Turnover Survey, and it shows you, 850 00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:04,520 Speaker 2: like how many people quit their job that month, and 851 00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:06,760 Speaker 2: it just went through the roof. It was like levels 852 00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:12,839 Speaker 2: that were just completely unprecedented and unthinkable, and people left 853 00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:16,520 Speaker 2: the service industry in particular because those jobs tend to 854 00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:17,680 Speaker 2: be quite miserable. 855 00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:19,799 Speaker 1: Right, They paid poorly and they suck well. 856 00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:22,680 Speaker 2: And then what happened is they wound up paying much 857 00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:25,920 Speaker 2: better because the only way that anyone could attract people 858 00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:28,920 Speaker 2: back into those jobs was by effectively doubling the amount. 859 00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:29,319 Speaker 1: Of pay they made. 860 00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:32,320 Speaker 2: Right, And so if you were, you know, back of 861 00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:35,440 Speaker 2: House Kirk in a New York City restaurant, suddenly you're 862 00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:38,200 Speaker 2: paid double. Basically, you used to be earning eight dollars now, 863 00:45:38,239 --> 00:45:40,400 Speaker 2: and now you're running sixteen dollars an hour. You know, 864 00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:42,560 Speaker 2: still not making millions, but you're doing a lot better 865 00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:44,680 Speaker 2: than you were, right, and you can take that put 866 00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:45,680 Speaker 2: it right into an NFT. 867 00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:47,759 Speaker 1: We had this. 868 00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:52,480 Speaker 2: Radical reshaking of supply demand. I have a chapter called 869 00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:55,520 Speaker 2: Shaking the extra sketch that we had this world that 870 00:45:55,840 --> 00:45:59,240 Speaker 2: was very clearly delineated and made sense, and then someone 871 00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:01,080 Speaker 2: just picked up the whole thing and shook it, and 872 00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:05,520 Speaker 2: we had to rebuild and reconstruct something new and different 873 00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:09,560 Speaker 2: and better. And it wasn't necessarily going to be bad, 874 00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:12,080 Speaker 2: but in many many ways it really was better and 875 00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:15,960 Speaker 2: is better and that is the phoenix. You know, that 876 00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:18,440 Speaker 2: is the phoenix of the title. That is the Phoenix economy. 877 00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:22,399 Speaker 1: Right, Okay, let me ask you one final question, which 878 00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:25,839 Speaker 1: is does the phoenix keep rising? Does the phoenix burn out? 879 00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:29,160 Speaker 1: What happens? Does this keep going? Are we is the 880 00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:32,759 Speaker 1: Phoenix economy now a permanent state of like kind of 881 00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:36,240 Speaker 1: a Yolo state of economics and then end of society 882 00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:39,000 Speaker 1: where where anything goes or does this settle down into 883 00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:41,120 Speaker 1: something that looks more familiar over time? 884 00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:45,959 Speaker 2: So the legend of the phoenix is one of death 885 00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:50,200 Speaker 2: and ashes and then rebirth and then you're right that 886 00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:53,080 Speaker 2: the phoenix kind of just slides around for a few 887 00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:54,839 Speaker 2: hundred years and then it is that what it does, 888 00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:56,920 Speaker 2: and then and then and then it dies again, it 889 00:46:56,960 --> 00:47:00,160 Speaker 2: gets reborn again, and like the periods of death and 890 00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:04,800 Speaker 2: rebirth are definitely much less common than the normal periods 891 00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:09,960 Speaker 2: of nothing much happening. So, yeah, like this current world 892 00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:13,120 Speaker 2: that we have built on the fly in response to 893 00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:15,400 Speaker 2: the pandemic is the world that we are going to 894 00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:18,399 Speaker 2: be in for the next ten twenty thirty, I don't 895 00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:21,080 Speaker 2: know how many years, where I doubt we're going to 896 00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:22,719 Speaker 2: have another major conflagration. 897 00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:25,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's decades of this that we're going 898 00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:27,800 Speaker 1: to be living on. Yeah, Okay. 899 00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:30,680 Speaker 2: The reason I wrote this book and not you know, 900 00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:33,440 Speaker 2: various other things that I thought about writing about over 901 00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:36,880 Speaker 2: the years, is that I have very strong belief that 902 00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:38,400 Speaker 2: if you're going to write a book, it has to 903 00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:41,439 Speaker 2: remain relevant for you know, five or ten years people 904 00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:43,640 Speaker 2: at least, you know, people should be able to take 905 00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:45,440 Speaker 2: it down from a library book, you know, a library 906 00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:48,920 Speaker 2: shehelf in ten years or fifteen years and read it 907 00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:51,320 Speaker 2: and learn something and have it be relevant and important. 908 00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:54,320 Speaker 2: And I really think this book does that. You know, 909 00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:57,920 Speaker 2: it's trying to explain a world where it's going to 910 00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:01,560 Speaker 2: be with us for a while. This isn't like history 911 00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:04,040 Speaker 2: of what happened in much twenty twenty that is interesting 912 00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:07,600 Speaker 2: only to historians. This is an attempt to explain and 913 00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:11,520 Speaker 2: give people the tools to understand this world that we 914 00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:13,720 Speaker 2: are now going to be living in, you know, especially 915 00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:15,680 Speaker 2: for you know, gen x is like you and me 916 00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:17,440 Speaker 2: basically for the rest of our lives. 917 00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:20,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, listen, I think it's a fascinating book. 918 00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:21,960 Speaker 1: I have to say, like I do think it's like 919 00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:25,760 Speaker 1: an amazing sort of capture of a moment in culture 920 00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:28,239 Speaker 1: that is so unlike. I mean, I think about this 921 00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:30,800 Speaker 1: all the time, just so unlike anything that has happened 922 00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:32,480 Speaker 1: and at least of course in my lifetime and in 923 00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:35,320 Speaker 1: your lifetime in terms of like just a shift on 924 00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:38,400 Speaker 1: so many levels. And I thought, I think it's I 925 00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:40,879 Speaker 1: think it's fantastic, and I obviously, like you know, want 926 00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:42,040 Speaker 1: to have you on to talk about it because I 927 00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:44,440 Speaker 1: think everybody should go and read it. So Felix, thank 928 00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:46,840 Speaker 1: you for taking the time once again to come on 929 00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:49,160 Speaker 1: and chat with me. And you got to come back 930 00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:56,560 Speaker 1: and do it again sometime. I would love to, Well, 931 00:48:57,360 --> 00:49:01,080 Speaker 1: that is our show, our show. Unlike the phoenix, instead 932 00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:03,960 Speaker 1: of rising from the ashes, has now died down back 933 00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:06,759 Speaker 1: into the back into the fire, back into the I 934 00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:09,160 Speaker 1: don't really know. Felix didn't really explain what happens to 935 00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:12,759 Speaker 1: the phoenix exactly. He did say there was a cycle, though, 936 00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:15,160 Speaker 1: which is I gotta read. I gotta look into that. Anyhow, 937 00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:18,400 Speaker 1: I thought it was fantastic. I love talking to Felix. 938 00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:22,640 Speaker 1: I think he's just so entertaining to listen to and 939 00:49:22,719 --> 00:49:26,480 Speaker 1: also so smart, and he definitely will have him back 940 00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:30,480 Speaker 1: on the next time. There is a terrible financial crisis. 941 00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:35,680 Speaker 1: That's the first call I'm making. Anyhow, that is our show. 942 00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:38,920 Speaker 1: We'll be back next week with more what future, and 943 00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:41,800 Speaker 1: as always, I wish you and your family the very best.