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Speaker 1: This is the me Eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,

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Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underware listening podcast. You

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Speaker 1: can't predict anything brought to you by first Light. When

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Speaker 1: I'm hunting, I need gear that won't quit. First Light builds,

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Speaker 1: no compromise, gear that keeps me in the field longer,

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Speaker 1: no shortcuts, just gear that works. Check it out at

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Speaker 1: first light dot com. That's f I R S T

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Speaker 1: L I t E dot com. Good Lord. Writer Jamie Holmes.

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Speaker 1: Here his third books out just out. I'm holding my

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Speaker 1: hand here. It's called The Free and the Dead. The

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Speaker 1: Untold Story of the Black Seminal Chief, the Indigenous rebel

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Speaker 1: in America's Forgotten War, releases on February third. So we're

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Speaker 1: gonna talk about the Seminal Wars, and we're gonna talk

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Speaker 1: about a fella you have certainly heard about, Asciola. Jamie,

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Speaker 1: I was gonna tell you all about how I got

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Speaker 1: interested in this. I got interested in this from Clay

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Speaker 1: on Bear Grease did a series on Asciola and thinking

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Speaker 1: to myself, well, how would clay get the definitive story.

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Speaker 1: There's gotta be more.

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Speaker 2: There's no way.

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Speaker 1: Claydon missed a bit. There's no way Clay didn't miss

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Speaker 1: something that I would need.

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Speaker 2: To know about friendly competition.

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Speaker 1: Jamie Holmes is a writer and the author of the

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Speaker 1: books The Free and the Dead of Course what I'm

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Speaker 1: holding right here plus twelve seconds of silence in the

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Speaker 1: book Nonsense. His work has appeared in print or online

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Speaker 1: in The New York Times, The New Yorker, Slate, Wired,

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Speaker 1: the Atlantic, and he has slummed it over at USA Today,

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Speaker 1: among other publications. He holds a.

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Speaker 2: Massive words not Jamie's.

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Speaker 1: Wow. It was just like I was, you know, really,

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Speaker 1: it was like he was kicking ass there. He's like,

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Speaker 1: you know, he's kicking ass. And then it just I'd

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Speaker 1: be thrilled to be in the U in the USA today.

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Speaker 1: Is that still going? Concern? Remember they used to put

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Speaker 1: it outside the hotel room.

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Speaker 3: That was the paper they put outside all the hotel rooms.

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Speaker 3: It's gotta be still going.

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Speaker 1: He holds the Masters of International Affairs from Columbia University

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Speaker 1: School of International Affairs. You know rand Over there holds

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Speaker 1: a pH d.

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Speaker 2: And you have a masters.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, butary, okay, but.

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Speaker 2: It than.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Uh.

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Speaker 1: Previously worked at New America as a policy analyst in

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Speaker 1: international development and served as a Future Tense Fellow. Prior

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Speaker 1: to that, he was a research coordinator at Harvard University's

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Speaker 1: Department of Economics, where he focused on behavioral economics. Can

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Speaker 1: you very quickly time what that means? Yeah? Sure, behavior Yeah,

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Speaker 1: behavioral economics.

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Speaker 3: Behavioral economics tries to take insights from psychology and put

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Speaker 3: them into policy. So, for example, there's a there's a

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Speaker 3: psychological phenomenon called.

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Speaker 2: What's it called, like priming or.

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Speaker 3: Or like let's say, let's say if you're giving a

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Speaker 3: tip in a taxi cab, right, and they say your

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Speaker 3: three options are five dollars, seven dollars, and nine dollars.

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Speaker 2: This is not called priming. This is called there's another

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Speaker 2: word for it.

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Speaker 1: Uh.

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Speaker 3: And then you say seven dollars, nine dollars, and eleven dollars.

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Speaker 3: So it's called anchoring. So you're anchoring your expectation of

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Speaker 3: what the average is based on you know, these three things.

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Speaker 3: And they show how you can move people to give

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Speaker 3: more donations based on these these three numbers, and you

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Speaker 3: move them up and down.

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Speaker 2: So then they take that and you know, you use

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Speaker 2: that for fundraising.

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Speaker 3: So what they really did is there's a book by

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Speaker 3: this guy CHALDEENI, which was like sort of insights from

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Speaker 3: the business world and how salespeople and people making products

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Speaker 3: use and discovered these psychological insights and maps them on

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Speaker 3: and you know, psychologists are discovering similar things. And then

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Speaker 3: they want to basically turn that around. Instead of manipulating

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Speaker 3: people to buy things or get them to do, what

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Speaker 3: you want is get them, you know, whatever it is,

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Speaker 3: raise money. You want to make positive policy changes.

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Speaker 2: So that was the idea behind it.

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Speaker 3: It had and there was a big push in the

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Speaker 3: Obama government where he hired a lot of those people

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Speaker 3: cast Sunstein, Richard Taylor, and my boss at at Harvard

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Speaker 3: Sendel Monathan.

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Speaker 2: And they tried a bunch of stuff. Some work, some didn't.

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Speaker 1: I got lost there. Tried a bunch of stuff on

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Speaker 1: what I don't understand what you mean.

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Speaker 3: They tried a bunch of interventions based on psychological insights.

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Speaker 3: So I'll give you another example of what they actually did. So,

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Speaker 3: what happens if to save energy if you send people

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Speaker 3: a letter and in the letter you tell them your

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Speaker 3: neighbors are say a lot of energy, they're not using

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Speaker 3: a lot of water, they're keeping their electricity building.

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Speaker 1: This is like social pressure when you see how much

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Speaker 1: they're water they're using. Yeah, and you're like, you don't

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Speaker 1: have three kids. Some bitch doesn't have three kids, so

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Speaker 1: why are you. Yeah, this is a big shot.

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Speaker 3: So this is social pressure and they're trying to get it.

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Speaker 3: They're trying to use it to get people to use less.

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Speaker 4: They also do They did stuff with the size of

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Speaker 4: soda cups, like if you want people to ingest less sugar,

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Speaker 4: instead of putting a forty four ounce cup out because

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Speaker 4: they're gonna drink. They're gonna drink. It's not like they're

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Speaker 4: going to drink forty four ounces of soda no matter

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Speaker 4: how big the cup is, or like the size of

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Speaker 4: a tray and a cafeteria.

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Speaker 3: Or you go to a store and they put the

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Speaker 3: you know, the all the high sugar things right near

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Speaker 3: the cash register because they want you to make an

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Speaker 3: impulse buy. They said, well, what can we do with that?

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Speaker 3: You know what if we put something that's good for

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Speaker 3: you there, which doesn't.

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Speaker 1: Say broad I don't want to spend too much. Times

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Speaker 1: they brought in at like on a policy basis, the

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Speaker 1: administration broadened people who would, for lack of a better word,

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Speaker 1: be good at like manipulating the public to have behaviors

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Speaker 1: that they wish they had, absolutely and to counteract what

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Speaker 1: we have to put the seminary counter.

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Speaker 4: Corporations are doing this to get you to make certain choices.

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Speaker 4: Sure was Yeah, of leveling the playing field in.

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Speaker 1: Terms of coffee shop people are doing it. Yeah, because

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Speaker 1: when you get the tip functions, they're like, you could

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Speaker 1: be like the tip would be like seventy percent or

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Speaker 1: other and you gotta be like, oh, now I'm in

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Speaker 1: a situation where I got to.

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Speaker 3: Hit other You know, there are stores in New York

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Speaker 3: now in New York City where you go and you're buying

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Speaker 3: something at the counter and they say, dude, what how

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Speaker 3: much do you want to tip at the counter?

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Speaker 1: You have not like I'm I'm actually a human.

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Speaker 2: I am not tipping.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to get in some counter, but you

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Speaker 1: want to their day. We were when we were on

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Speaker 1: We're going to tip our kids to visit their We

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Speaker 1: were in the restaurant and in the restaurant there's like

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Speaker 1: the price of the menu and I wish I'd take

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Speaker 1: a picture of it. A very fine print in the

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Speaker 1: bottom is that we don't want to because of inflation.

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Speaker 1: We don't want to change our menus prices. So unless

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Speaker 1: you ask otherwise, all of this is elevated by fourteen percent.

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Speaker 1: But you can request to have that not happen. That's wild.

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Speaker 1: I am not kidding you. On the bottom of the

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Speaker 1: menu and I ate there. We were staying in a hotel.

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Speaker 1: I ate there probably three times before my father in

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Speaker 1: law noticed.

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Speaker 2: That's weird.

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Speaker 1: That's weird.

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Speaker 2: So it says eight dollars, but it's really whatever at ninety.

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Speaker 1: Like you think your omelet is twelve, your omelet is

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Speaker 1: they're saying we're putting a fort unless you ask otherwise.

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Speaker 1: That's actually fourteen percent more because of inflation. But we

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Speaker 1: don't want to change the menu prices.

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Speaker 2: That's too weird.

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Speaker 1: It's true. Words guys like you, like you man into

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Speaker 1: the seminal war story. Yea, dude, here's what I here's

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Speaker 1: what I got. I love your book. It does. The

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Speaker 1: story does two things. The book does two things. The

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Speaker 1: book captures all The book validates all of your sort

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Speaker 1: of pre what not your the book. The book validates

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Speaker 1: one's all of one's preconceived notions about the brutality and

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Speaker 1: crime of the Indian Wars. But simultaneously. It turns every

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Speaker 1: preconceived notion you have about the Indian Wars on its head.

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Speaker 1: And then and I'll explain it's like and getting into

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Speaker 1: the story, you have to come to grip with. Here's

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Speaker 1: a group of Native Americans that kind of kind of

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Speaker 1: had slaves. This history involves a Native American that was

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Speaker 1: a West Point graduate that went to fight against Native Americans.

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Speaker 1: It involves a person that is able to ally himself

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Speaker 1: with Native American forces, who is a freed slave fighting

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Speaker 1: alongside Native Americans who at the same time the same

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Speaker 1: individuals that at the same time kind of have some slaves.

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Speaker 1: It involves a Native American war leader who is one

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Speaker 1: eighth maybe one eighth one eighth Native American that is

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Speaker 1: mostly genetically not culturally right, not spiritually, but like through

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Speaker 1: weird circumstances, is like genetically a Western European. It's there

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Speaker 1: is a lot, a lot to up to like unpack

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Speaker 1: in this story.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's such a it's such a complex story.

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Speaker 2: How to set the table for it?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, I know. If you don't have an idea,

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you what I think you should do.

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Speaker 4: How did you I mean, I'm curious tell me you

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Speaker 4: got ahead. Yeah, how we go from behavioral economics to

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Speaker 4: I wondered.

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Speaker 1: Why did you write the book? I was wondered about that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well it The Bridge is my second book, which

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Speaker 3: is twelve Seconds of Silence, which is completely within this genre,

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Speaker 3: which is historical narrative nonfiction with a ton of archive work.

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Speaker 2: I did a lot of original archive work.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, some of some of the archive work I found

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Speaker 3: contradicts some of the assumptions that we've had about the story.

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Speaker 3: And there's there's a lot of things that are that

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Speaker 3: are set the Yeah, zoom in on this bill. There's

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Speaker 3: a lot of things that are cential notes.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So if you're one of those guys that looks at

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Speaker 1: the book and he's like, I can't read that, it's

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Speaker 1: too long, don't read the note I sat down, but

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Speaker 1: it makes it like a look at how then how

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Speaker 1: look attractive it is.

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Speaker 4: I sat down with it twenty four hours ago and

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Speaker 4: I thought, there's no way I'm going to get through this,

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Speaker 4: and then I flipped to the the end of the

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Speaker 4: actual last chapter and I thought, yeah, it's a pretty

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Speaker 4: good chance.

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Speaker 3: I'll tell you why I did that, and then I'll

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Speaker 3: answer your question about how I got to it because

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Speaker 3: of because I think one of the things that Clay

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Speaker 3: said on his first podcast is like, imagine if somebody

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Speaker 3: from a foreign country came and observed you, and maybe

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Speaker 3: they had a political agenda, and almost all of the

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Speaker 3: documentation about you is from these outside observers.

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Speaker 2: What kind of an evidence base would you be dealing with.

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Speaker 1: That's an interesting point.

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Speaker 3: So that's the kind of evidence space that's and and

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Speaker 3: the evidence base is messy, and it's full of contradictions,

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Speaker 3: and it's full of biases, and it's full of errors.

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Speaker 3: It's the newspapers at the time are making stuff up.

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Speaker 2: So there's a lot of mythology.

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Speaker 3: So as I began to get my way closer to it,

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Speaker 3: I thought the story was I realized I had to

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Speaker 3: kind of do a separate book in the back for

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Speaker 3: the academics and say, Okay, here's where I think this

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Speaker 3: academic says this. I don't think that's right. Here's my evidence,

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Speaker 3: and I'm going to lay it all out because I

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Speaker 3: wanted to keep the front of the book just a story.

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Speaker 3: I came to it just as a storyteller and just

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Speaker 3: wanting to enjoy the story, explore the archives, myself very quickly,

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Speaker 3: and then I'll return to your point. There's a great

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Speaker 3: quote that says the past is a foreign country, and

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Speaker 3: it comes from a nineteen fifties Edwardian novel. But there's

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Speaker 3: a scholar named David Lowan Lowenthal who did a famous

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Speaker 3: book with that title, The Past is a Foreign Country,

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Speaker 3: and it's really about history and then heritage as mythologized history,

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Speaker 3: but the idea of a history book and writing and

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Speaker 3: reading about history as an exploration. I know you've traveled

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Speaker 3: a lot of traveled, some going to a foreign place

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Speaker 3: at first kind of being overwhelmed by the weirdness and

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Speaker 3: the difference of it, and slowly starting to pick up

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Speaker 3: clues as to what these different things mean that are

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Speaker 3: new to you, and then also having that experience reflect

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Speaker 3: back on you. So you're exploring the world, and then

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Speaker 3: it's also reflecting on how you what is normal there?

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Speaker 2: Do it like this?

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Speaker 3: I thought this was normal, So it's changing your view

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Speaker 3: of yourself as you're exploring.

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Speaker 2: I think in that way, it's a lot like travel writing.

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Speaker 3: So I came to it with that with that goal

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Speaker 3: to just selfishly explore the story that I was interested

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Speaker 3: in and do as much archive work as I could.

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Speaker 3: After I did this, this book on science, my first book,

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Speaker 3: I kind of got disenamored with it a little bit

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Speaker 3: for various reasons that are not very interesting. But I

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Speaker 3: love writing with the psychological science. Yeah, but I love

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Speaker 3: writing and I love narrative writing. I kind of started

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Speaker 3: off wanting to do fiction before I got into nonfiction,

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Speaker 3: and so I.

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Speaker 2: Thought, well, this is a genre.

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Speaker 3: I really like Eric Larsen's books and David Grant stuff, like,

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Speaker 3: I love this genre. Maybe this is a place I

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Speaker 3: can reinvent myself a little. So Twelve Seconds of Silence

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Speaker 3: is I'm very proud of that book. It's about World

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Speaker 3: War two and these group of scientists. So science was

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Speaker 3: kind of the bridge from the first book to the

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Speaker 3: second book. And it's about a group of scientists who

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Speaker 3: World War two who invent this new weapon to shoot

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Speaker 3: down airplanes and they take down the Nazi super weapon

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Speaker 3: with it. So I fell in love with archive work

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Speaker 3: during that process. Like you're digging in the crates, you're

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Speaker 3: going to these you're going to the library at Congress,

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Speaker 3: you're going to the NARA, the National Archives and Records Administration.

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Speaker 2: It's kind of like a treasure hunt.

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Speaker 3: And you know, so just a couple things in here

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Speaker 3: that nobody has. They didn't have Abraham's Indian name, right.

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Speaker 3: If you look it up online, it's going to be wrong.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I haven't changed the Wikipedia. I actually think

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Speaker 3: that he was born among the seminoles and not a

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Speaker 3: former slaves from Pensacola, and I have good evidence for

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Speaker 3: that in the back of the book.

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Speaker 2: So there's a lot of things that I add in,

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Speaker 2: a lot of things.

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Speaker 3: That I discovered new archival evidence that historians get to

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Speaker 3: debate and disagree with and move forward in that way.

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Speaker 3: But so I fell in love with it with my

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Speaker 3: second book, and then I just found this story and

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Speaker 3: jumped in and it was a different archival challenge because

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Speaker 3: of where the archives are for this story. The last one,

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Speaker 3: it was almost all in DC, so I moved to

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Speaker 3: DC for it this one. All of the archives, the

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Speaker 3: best archives are really written by soldiers, either in the

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Speaker 3: army or they're militia or they're volunteers, and all of

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Speaker 3: those archives are all across America. I mean, there's some

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Speaker 3: military files in DC. There's some important people that have

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Speaker 3: stuff at the Library of Congress Jackson, like the main

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Speaker 3: General Thomas Jessup, But all the soldiers diaries and those

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Speaker 3: are really the best records. It's like state historical societies

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Speaker 3: and universities. So you know, I went poking around, like

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Speaker 3: main historical says, oh, here's a journal that's not been

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Speaker 3: sight of it for So that was that was fun

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Speaker 3: and I love that part of it. And then you

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Speaker 3: kind of sit with all of these contradictions and you

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Speaker 3: try to distill the story that that you know makes

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Speaker 3: sense as far as you can make sense of it.

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Speaker 2: That's awesome.

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Speaker 1: Can you start by When I was kicking around how

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Speaker 1: to get into this, I thought, let's start with the

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Speaker 1: thing that was most confusing to me. Yeah, and then

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Speaker 1: I'm just going to trust that it's going to be

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Speaker 1: a thing that's very confusing to other people. I always

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Speaker 1: thought that.

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Speaker 2: There was a.

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Speaker 1: Tribe, and I just assumed the tribe had been in

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Speaker 1: existence for a thousand years, that there was a try

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Speaker 1: of people that were the Seminole. Uh, can you explain

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Speaker 1: what how like how that group of people came to Coalesce,

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Speaker 1: where that name came from, who they were? What you're

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Speaker 1: when you say seminal? What are you saying?

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Speaker 2: Sure it's a good question.

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Speaker 3: So, semino comes from the Spanish cimarron, which is sometimes

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Speaker 3: translated as runaway or untamed. I think it was originally

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Speaker 3: in reference to undomesticated cattle life, you know, horses, I think,

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Speaker 3: and to some degree, the the Seminole tribe of Florida

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Speaker 3: doesn't like the runaway designation untamed.

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Speaker 1: But just quickly that that is a thing that that

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Speaker 1: that is very common in European nomenclature for tribal peoples.

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Speaker 1: Is we use used, used a lot of words that

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Speaker 1: were not their words. Yeah, but we'd be allied with

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Speaker 1: or make contact with the tribe. Yeah, the tribe would

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Speaker 1: be like, well, I'll tell you what I call them,

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Speaker 1: and that would become the name.

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Speaker 2: There's a word for that.

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Speaker 3: It's called an exonym name given by an outside group.

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Speaker 3: And then to some degree those names can be reclaimed, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: and they take them back. But to answer your question,

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Speaker 3: you know, originally there's an estimate of twenty five thousand

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Speaker 3: indigenous people in Florida. This is at Spanish contact, those

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Speaker 3: including the Timaqwans like some others, those people were wiped out,

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Speaker 3: you know, those people were gone by the time the

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Speaker 3: Seminoles come down from disease from military conflicts. The people

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Speaker 3: that became the Seminole and even the Mikazuki tribe which

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Speaker 3: is down there, come from the Creek Confederacy at Creek

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Speaker 3: another exonym the Muskogie people, uh. And these are kind

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Speaker 3: of loose confederations. And what happens with the Seminoles is

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Speaker 3: you have Americans settlers coming down pressuring people in what

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Speaker 3: is now Georgia and Alabama, and you have the elements

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Speaker 3: of the Creek Confederacy starting to acculturate.

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Speaker 2: Starting you have some intermarrying.

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Speaker 1: Tell people what that means, the culture.

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Speaker 3: A culture meaning they're starting to adopt the customs of

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Speaker 3: the Anglos and then the Americans. And eventually you have

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Speaker 3: Creek enslavers running plantations at scale. So they're you know,

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Speaker 3: growing crops and they're having slaves at that scale.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's the degree of a culturation people of

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Speaker 1: Creek descent like, yes, okay, Creek descent have but that,

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Speaker 1: but they're the own deeded land.

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Speaker 2: A portion of them. No it's not needed, no, okay.

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Speaker 1: So they're running they're running plantain operations on open on

359
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Speaker 1: claimed lands.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I see, yes, so, but so you have this

361
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Speaker 3: this split within the Creek Confederacy, this schism, and it's

362
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Speaker 3: sort of continuing, and then in the seventeen nineties it

363
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Speaker 3: sort of becomes even.

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Speaker 2: More dramatic.

365
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Speaker 3: As to are we going to adopt these new ways,

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Speaker 3: which you know, it's like, okay, we've got hunting rifles,

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Speaker 3: our clothes are changing, We're buying things at markets. You know,

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Speaker 3: the things that women used to make were now we're

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Speaker 3: now purchasing.

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Speaker 1: They.

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Speaker 3: You know, are we going to shift fully into agriculture

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Speaker 3: were they were growing things?

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Speaker 2: But you know, also hunting.

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Speaker 3: So there are all these pressures that are changing the culture,

375
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Speaker 3: and of course the settlers are pushing them out, and

376
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Speaker 3: there's military conflicts and all that.

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Speaker 2: The Seminoles, the.

378
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Speaker 3: Main seminal force, the main body of the people who

379
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Speaker 3: came to be called Seminoles, came in three phases.

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Speaker 1: Would you mind tie in this real quick? Yeah, known

381
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Speaker 1: American history, just just to remind like, where are we

382
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Speaker 1: in terms of the post revolution?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

384
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Speaker 3: Yeah, So the first wave of people that became seminoles

385
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Speaker 3: is seventeen hundred and seventeen fifty, so this is pre

386
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Speaker 3: revolution and they broke apart from the Creek Confederacy and

387
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Speaker 3: decided we're going to go with the old ways.

388
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Speaker 2: We're not going to change.

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Speaker 1: So they're having this debate about us do we adopt

390
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Speaker 1: what would become American ways. But they're having this conversation

391
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Speaker 1: before America exists.

392
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Speaker 3: As America, as America is coming to exist, and then

393
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Speaker 3: after the revolution as well. So one of the dramatic

394
00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:40,919
Speaker 3: things that happens. So anyway, quickly, I'll quickly answer the

395
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Speaker 3: immigration thing, because you brought up an important point, and

396
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Speaker 3: then I'll get back to this creek split seventeen fifty,

397
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Speaker 3: another wave around seventeen ninety, another wave around eighteen fourteen.

398
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Speaker 3: You have a bunch of groups down in Florida at

399
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Speaker 3: this time that Americans all call seminoles, even though the

400
00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:01,879
Speaker 3: Americans knew they were not all setminals. So you have seminoles.

401
00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:05,280
Speaker 3: The main two to remember are seminoles and mikazuki. You

402
00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:08,400
Speaker 3: also have some people who still identify as creeks down there.

403
00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:15,440
Speaker 3: You have some tallasses, some yuciese, some Tallahasses, and in

404
00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:19,240
Speaker 3: American newspapers they're all called seminoles. I think in part

405
00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:23,160
Speaker 3: because it makes it easier to sell the treaty if it's.

406
00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:25,480
Speaker 2: All one people, all one people agreed to this.

407
00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:29,359
Speaker 3: Treaty to leave, but really it's fragmented and at the

408
00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:33,080
Speaker 3: time they don't identify as one group. Really, you know,

409
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Speaker 3: I have something that Abraham wrote at the chief Abraham

410
00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:40,160
Speaker 3: wrote at the time, where he's listing the different groups. Now,

411
00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:45,160
Speaker 3: later after the Seminole Wars, those groups begin to reclaim

412
00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:49,600
Speaker 3: that term and identify all as seminos. But at the

413
00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:52,480
Speaker 3: time they were not thinking of themselves that way, even

414
00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:55,280
Speaker 3: though it appears that way in American newspapers. And of

415
00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:57,960
Speaker 3: course this causes a lot of confusion because if you

416
00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:00,280
Speaker 3: have a split between the seminos and Mikazuki's you call

417
00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:02,919
Speaker 3: them all seminoles, you can't understand what's going on.

418
00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:04,600
Speaker 2: You can't read the situation.

419
00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:08,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, so there's a lot of confusion that comes from,

420
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:11,040
Speaker 3: of course, the generals, the people closest to the story.

421
00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:13,080
Speaker 2: They know very well, they're highly aware.

422
00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:15,240
Speaker 1: But in a lot of it, they know they're dealing

423
00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:20,359
Speaker 1: with different groups, different leaders, with different motivations, with different objectives.

424
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Speaker 1: But the story is we're fighting seminoles.

425
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Speaker 2: That's exactly right.

426
00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:31,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, the greatest schism in one of the great schism

427
00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:34,080
Speaker 3: you know, there's a war, of course, in thirteen eighteen

428
00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:35,240
Speaker 3: fourteen called the Creek War.

429
00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:36,400
Speaker 2: In a way, it's a civil war.

430
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Speaker 3: But going back to the seventeen nineties is a very

431
00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:43,119
Speaker 3: interesting part of this story where the Creeks are allied

432
00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:47,119
Speaker 3: with the British, the Upper Creeks, i think, and they're

433
00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:51,520
Speaker 3: attacking against they're fighting the Americans during the Revolution, and

434
00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:52,840
Speaker 3: they're attacking what's there.

435
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:53,560
Speaker 2: What's there?

436
00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:57,960
Speaker 3: It's plantations, and they're taking POW's, which is the old way.

437
00:23:57,960 --> 00:23:59,280
Speaker 2: You would always take POW's.

438
00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:01,560
Speaker 3: You didn't care what's in color they were, and you

439
00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:04,679
Speaker 3: would either kill them, adopt them into the tribe, or

440
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,960
Speaker 3: make them servants, not agricultural workers on a farm, but

441
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:10,680
Speaker 3: they would be servants and their children would be free.

442
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:14,920
Speaker 3: Their children could be part of the tribe, which is important.

443
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:18,200
Speaker 3: And the Seminoles still practice that as late as seventeen

444
00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:21,840
Speaker 3: seventy four. Now the Creeks start to change and in

445
00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:25,720
Speaker 3: about seventeen ninety Okay, well, if we're going to practice

446
00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:29,400
Speaker 3: the other way, then enslavement is going to be by

447
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:33,760
Speaker 3: skin color, and it's going to be transgenerational. So I'm

448
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:35,680
Speaker 3: going to own your children, and we're going to do

449
00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:38,199
Speaker 3: it by skin color. And that is a radical change.

450
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:39,800
Speaker 3: In Greek culture, there was a.

451
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:41,679
Speaker 1: Term that had to look up. I've seen it a

452
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:44,119
Speaker 1: thousand times. I don't even know how to pronounce it. Yeah,

453
00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:48,359
Speaker 1: chattel chat like chattle slavery. Yeah, and it was like

454
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:51,120
Speaker 1: i'd seen that where I never looked at up reading

455
00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:52,880
Speaker 1: your book, I look it up and it's like this

456
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:58,399
Speaker 1: concept that I own you. Yeah, you're my servant and

457
00:24:58,480 --> 00:24:59,840
Speaker 1: your child is my servant.

458
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:02,120
Speaker 2: It's dramatic. That's dramatic.

459
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:03,600
Speaker 1: It's an interesting distinction.

460
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:06,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, and so I think a number of the people

461
00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:10,840
Speaker 3: who became black seminoles were children of POW's who escaped

462
00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:12,840
Speaker 3: down to the seminoles who had a more open view

463
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:16,520
Speaker 3: of this. As Greek culture is changing, that's for sure

464
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:22,480
Speaker 3: part of the story. So yeah, it's really the pressure

465
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:24,920
Speaker 3: from the north and then these various groups coming down

466
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:29,240
Speaker 3: and identifying generally as seminoles, even though they're not exactly

467
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:29,960
Speaker 3: that yet.

468
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 1: Yeah. Where where does as these groups get pushed down? Oh,

469
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:40,200
Speaker 1: you know, there's nothing I want to top before we

470
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:42,120
Speaker 1: get there, because it's part of the pushing down. Can

471
00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:45,359
Speaker 1: you explain the was it the Red shirts or Red arrows?

472
00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:45,880
Speaker 1: What was it?

473
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:46,840
Speaker 4: Red sticks?

474
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 1: Red stick?

475
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:49,639
Speaker 3: I will, but you brought up something and I didn't

476
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:52,560
Speaker 3: respond to it. Chattle slavery. So and then I'll get

477
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,440
Speaker 3: to the red sticks. So chattle slavery. Right, I own,

478
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:58,920
Speaker 3: you own your children, but it's basically your your piece

479
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 3: of property. And what they wanted to do after especially

480
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:06,120
Speaker 3: after eighteen thirty one, when you have Nat Turner's rebellion, it.

481
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:08,439
Speaker 2: Was illegal to teach the slave to read.

482
00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:11,639
Speaker 3: So the rules are basically I can tell you I

483
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:13,879
Speaker 3: can split apart your family. You're not going to have

484
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:17,119
Speaker 3: any knowledge. I don't want you knowing anything. You're not

485
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:19,199
Speaker 3: going to be allowed to read. Right, You're not going

486
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:21,760
Speaker 3: to be allowed to travel freely. And these rules very

487
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:25,440
Speaker 3: very on different plantations. You can't travel without a pass,

488
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 3: and you can't accumulate wealth. And then if you look

489
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:33,520
Speaker 3: at the rights of the black seminoles, almost all of

490
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:38,159
Speaker 3: them worldly, they speak two or three languages, they have

491
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:43,480
Speaker 3: vast wealth, they're traveling freely, and there's a rule, according

492
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 3: to Wilie Thompson, who's Andrew Jackson's Indian agent, that it

493
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:49,679
Speaker 3: is illegal to sell them. And their constant promise is

494
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 3: not to split up the families. Now, laws get broken,

495
00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 3: but that's apparently a law now, when Americans take.

496
00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:59,240
Speaker 2: Over Florida, you have this population.

497
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:02,280
Speaker 3: I would say there's five hundred black seminoles estimated. I

498
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 3: would say about one hundred are servants by the old

499
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:09,000
Speaker 3: Muskogi way, which is not hard labor, and it's sort

500
00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:11,479
Speaker 3: of a system of tribute where you get a portion

501
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,919
Speaker 3: of the corn that you grow, which sounds to me

502
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 3: like attacks more than slavery. And then you have about

503
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:21,840
Speaker 3: four hundred who are claiming to be slaves who the

504
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:24,000
Speaker 3: quote is they all pretended to be free.

505
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 2: I'm all pretended to be purchased.

506
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:31,320
Speaker 3: And if they're children of POW's from the revolution, they're

507
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:34,000
Speaker 3: not going to have any papers proving that. Of course,

508
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:36,720
Speaker 3: the Creeks can't claim can't prove that they own them.

509
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:40,359
Speaker 3: So in a way there they are more free to

510
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:42,240
Speaker 3: go down to Florida, but in a way they're vulnerable

511
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:49,200
Speaker 3: because there's no paperwork. So you have when America takes

512
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:53,000
Speaker 3: over Florida, it becomes the territory of Florida in eighteen

513
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:56,240
Speaker 3: twenty one. It's different than the Spanish policy, where you

514
00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 3: really had three groups of people, and it was pretty

515
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:03,400
Speaker 3: easy to free yourself if you're an enslaved person, Florida doesn't.

516
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:03,719
Speaker 2: Want to do that.

517
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:06,720
Speaker 3: They want to have and in fact, when they write

518
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:09,320
Speaker 3: their constitution it becomes a state. In eighteen forty five,

519
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:14,160
Speaker 3: they try to ban all African Americans who are free

520
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 3: from entering Florida. They're not allowed to do that, but

521
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 3: they tried to do.

522
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:21,520
Speaker 1: That because they wanted to clean it up. They wanted

523
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:24,160
Speaker 1: to clean up all the confusion. Well who was who?

524
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:28,480
Speaker 3: You don't yeah, you don't want They didn't want free

525
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:32,200
Speaker 3: black people there as a bad example to the enslaved population.

526
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:34,040
Speaker 2: That was their idea.

527
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:36,119
Speaker 3: So the black seminos are claiming to be slaves in

528
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:39,760
Speaker 3: an environment where you cannot have a large free black population.

529
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 3: In a way, they are using it as protection. And

530
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 3: I'm sure there was variation.

531
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:47,960
Speaker 1: So that'd rather be these guys quote slaves than your

532
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 1: slave slave.

533
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 4: And you don't want to be vulnerable to being enslaved

534
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:58,120
Speaker 4: exactly if you're already someone else's property, that the eyes

535
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 4: of the outsiders that they can't take you.

536
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:03,840
Speaker 3: That's the game. So Abraham owns his son Reni as

537
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 3: a slave.

538
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:07,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, I thought that was the paperwork that when they

539
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:09,479
Speaker 4: have a kid, they establish all this paper that their

540
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:10,680
Speaker 4: kids are owned by them.

541
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 3: Chief Mikonopee sells the child and you go and you

542
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 3: write it down in the record books of the local administrators.

543
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 3: There's a family that goes and tries to write down

544
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 3: the free status of their children in three different record books.

545
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:26,000
Speaker 3: So they're trying to protect their children. They know a

546
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 3: day is going to come that claims are going to

547
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 3: be made on them, and they want to be able

548
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:32,360
Speaker 3: to say, look at the record books at Palaca, at

549
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:35,840
Speaker 3: Fort Brook or you know, Tampa Bay. So that's what's

550
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:42,440
Speaker 3: happening mostly. And you have historians in the past who

551
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 3: have said, oh, they say they're all slaves.

552
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 2: They are all slaves. It's more complicated.

553
00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, uh, I still want to get to the

554
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:54,600
Speaker 1: red Sticks, but I want the slavery thing fer me. Yeah, yeah,

555
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 1: just because this becomes a big part. Yeah, you'd mentioned

556
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:04,240
Speaker 1: that there's almost like a reverse there's like a Southern railroad. Yeah,

557
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 1: where if you in the Deep South, if you're an

558
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:14,240
Speaker 1: escaping slave, it's understood among slave communities that an option,

559
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 1: if you can't get north, an option is to get south.

560
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:19,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's such.

561
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:22,960
Speaker 3: It's Yeah, so as early as I want to say

562
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 3: something like a sixteen eighty five. It's in it's the

563
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:30,720
Speaker 3: late seventeenth century. The Spanish adopt a policy in which

564
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:35,200
Speaker 3: an escaped slave can come down, say that they're Catholic,

565
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 3: join the army, and they will back up their rights.

566
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:41,280
Speaker 3: So there's this deal that's going down. If you can

567
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:43,880
Speaker 3: get down there, if you're willing to fight, the authorities

568
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:46,640
Speaker 3: down there will recognize your status. I mean we do

569
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:50,760
Speaker 3: this in the United States military today, right get you

570
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:53,640
Speaker 3: can get a fast track to citizenship if you serve

571
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 3: in the armed forces, in the American Armed Forces. This

572
00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 3: is a very old deal, going back to antiquity, soldiery

573
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:03,280
Speaker 3: for so rights. And then some people are coming down

574
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:05,640
Speaker 3: to Florida and leaving. You know, you can get you

575
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:07,800
Speaker 3: can get down to the Caribbean, you can get down

576
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 3: to Spanish Cuba.

577
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:10,960
Speaker 2: So that's happening as well.

578
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:17,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's it's you know, the interior of Florida,

579
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:18,680
Speaker 3: and then we'll give back to the resistics.

580
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:21,320
Speaker 2: The interior of Florida is not settled.

581
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 3: It's there's no minerals to extract, and the Spanish don't

582
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 3: try to settle it, and neither do the British. I mean,

583
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:32,000
Speaker 3: there are some Spanish missions, but it's really the coasts.

584
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 3: It's kind of a strategic buffer, you know. You know,

585
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 3: Spain comes, they settle Saint Augustine.

586
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 2: I think it's fifteen.

587
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:47,680
Speaker 3: Sixty five or sixty three, something like that, and they

588
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:50,040
Speaker 3: lose it to Britain very quickly because they side with

589
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:52,560
Speaker 3: the French and the French and Indian War. French lose,

590
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:55,720
Speaker 3: Britain takes over, and the Spanish side with US in

591
00:31:55,760 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 3: the American Revolution. They attack British Florida both from Spanish

592
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:03,080
Speaker 3: Louisiana and from Cuba. They take it back over, but

593
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 3: it's still a strategic buffer. It's like you don't really

594
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:11,040
Speaker 3: want to live there. It's like Greenland, you want to

595
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:14,640
Speaker 3: It's the Greenland of its day.

596
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:16,720
Speaker 2: So so to the red Sticks.

597
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 1: I got a comment about, yeah, go ahead, the how

598
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:23,720
Speaker 1: in your description of Florida. That is funny because you

599
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 1: hear you have these like the e Like if you

600
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:28,760
Speaker 1: look at a map now, you'd be like, oh, it's

601
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:32,080
Speaker 1: the eastern US. Yeah, and you haven't in your head

602
00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:36,040
Speaker 1: that there's like Boston and Philadelphia and Charleston. You're like,

603
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:39,520
Speaker 1: that's the whole settled part. Yeah, by these dates. Yeah,

604
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 1: And it made me think of MacArthur had this approach

605
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:46,240
Speaker 1: in World War Two where he would just shoot through

606
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:52,600
Speaker 1: areas and just pass everybody up and grab cities, and

607
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:54,640
Speaker 1: he'd be like, we'll sort that out later. Yeah, like

608
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:57,680
Speaker 1: instead of instead of rolling along on a unified front,

609
00:32:57,720 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 1: he would now and then just bust.

610
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:01,080
Speaker 2: Through it sounds like a blitz creek and.

611
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 1: Then yeah, and then be like, well, no, I know,

612
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:05,200
Speaker 1: we drove past tons of people, but we'll just get

613
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:07,520
Speaker 1: them later. Yeah, Like I just want to keep moving. Yeah.

614
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:10,280
Speaker 1: And you think of in a little bit like when

615
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 1: you imagine your mind's eye the settlement in United statesification

616
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 1: of the continent. You imagine it being this line, yes,

617
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:24,200
Speaker 1: but it has all these like Missus, yes, missus Florida.

618
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 1: For a while it misses the Mississippi delta, and then

619
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 1: just kind of go like, we'll get to that later.

620
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 1: Then the Great Plains. You know, San Francisco's a big city,

621
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:35,000
Speaker 1: so like, oh, they're done, they're done conquering the thing. Like,

622
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 1: oh no, we left off a huge we left off

623
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:40,680
Speaker 1: the Great Plains. We'll come back and get to that later,

624
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 1: you know. Yeah.

625
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:47,000
Speaker 3: By by eighteen thirty five, you have everything up to

626
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:50,120
Speaker 3: the Mississippi except maybe parts of like what I don't

627
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:52,280
Speaker 3: know what the Mississippi does when it gets super far north.

628
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:54,720
Speaker 3: It may go into Minnesota or something. But basically it's

629
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 3: Michigan and Florida are the only places that are not states.

630
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:02,280
Speaker 3: And Florida is the least settled, and it's the most

631
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:06,680
Speaker 3: sparsely populate populated. You have fifteen million people in the

632
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:09,760
Speaker 3: US at that time, you have.

633
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:13,320
Speaker 2: Almost all of it is rural, really small cities.

634
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 3: New York's like two hundred thousand, seventy percent of people

635
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:20,720
Speaker 3: are working on farms. It's like most of the country

636
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:29,200
Speaker 3: is farming and hunting and fishing, and and Florida is

637
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:32,920
Speaker 3: really these cities and you have you know, in twenty

638
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 3: we take it over. We take over Florida. It becomes

639
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:37,040
Speaker 3: the territory of Florida. In eighteen twenty one. One of

640
00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:38,880
Speaker 3: the first things they do is they move the tribes

641
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 3: into an Indian reservation in the center of Florida.

642
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:43,200
Speaker 2: But we don't.

643
00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:46,160
Speaker 3: It's unmapped. The middle of Florida is unmapped. We have

644
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:48,839
Speaker 3: maps for less than half of it. There's you know,

645
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:51,960
Speaker 3: there's a quote, we know less about the interior of

646
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 3: Florida than the interior of China. At some point in

647
00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:59,160
Speaker 3: the war, there's a general who has to go to

648
00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:01,600
Speaker 3: a bookstore to buy a map of Florida. That's the

649
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:07,040
Speaker 3: best map he can get of the territory. So Florida

650
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:11,759
Speaker 3: is lagging and and you know, the bottom half A

651
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:13,680
Speaker 3: lot of it's because it's not good for farming. You know,

652
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 3: the bottom half of it. You've been to Lake Okachobee,

653
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:19,319
Speaker 3: I think below that the natural everglades, Like, you're not

654
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:25,760
Speaker 3: farming there. So the Red Sticks is you know, there's

655
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 3: this is about the split in the Creek Confederacy and

656
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,560
Speaker 3: Osciola comes from a red comes from the Red Sticks.

657
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 3: And they fought against Andrew Jackson. They're the upper Creeks.

658
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:37,520
Speaker 3: The lower Creeks were called the White Sticks. By the way,

659
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:42,560
Speaker 3: red sticks. Baton rouge the red Sticks, oh yeah, and

660
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:44,840
Speaker 3: they fight and Jackson fights with the White Sticks against

661
00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:45,480
Speaker 3: the Red Sticks.

662
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:48,239
Speaker 1: There's there's the are these colors related to skin color?

663
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:49,920
Speaker 1: Totally coincidental, coincidental.

664
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:54,239
Speaker 3: It's the Red War Club that they had. I guess

665
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:58,520
Speaker 3: it was painted red, got it? Yeah, baton the stick,

666
00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:03,520
Speaker 3: red Stick. And so there's the Battle of Horseshoe Bend.

667
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:09,160
Speaker 3: I want to say it's eighteen fourteen where Jackson and

668
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:13,120
Speaker 3: the White Sticks have a resounding defeat and they kill

669
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:17,160
Speaker 3: eight hundred Red Sticks. There's reportedly twenty or so survivors,

670
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:20,240
Speaker 3: and you know, widows and orphans come down in Florida

671
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:23,799
Speaker 3: and Oscioli is part of that group, so.

672
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:24,960
Speaker 2: You know he's in Florida.

673
00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:27,440
Speaker 3: Then Jackson, you know, the guy who killed his people,

674
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:30,880
Speaker 3: becomes president and he's got to sit in these meetings

675
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:34,400
Speaker 3: where Jackson's representative says, you know, please leave, I'm your friend,

676
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:35,520
Speaker 3: I'm trying to help you.

677
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:36,799
Speaker 2: And so you know, he.

678
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:41,560
Speaker 3: Comes out of this deep scar of seeing real violence

679
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:43,799
Speaker 3: when he's young. He comes down to Florida when he's ten.

680
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:49,360
Speaker 3: So he's carrying this profound trauma of seeing his people

681
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:53,000
Speaker 3: split in two. Yeah, and he starts to see it

682
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:55,759
Speaker 3: again happen in Florida, and you know he won't he

683
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:56,799
Speaker 3: won't stand for it.

684
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:00,160
Speaker 1: One thing that Clay got right in his series on

685
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:04,000
Speaker 1: the Seminal Wars and Asola is Clay starts it out

686
00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:09,520
Speaker 1: with John Lee Anderson's Seminal Wind, tell Me the famous

687
00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:14,080
Speaker 1: song Blow Blow Blow Seminal Wind, and Clay's favorite part

688
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:17,279
Speaker 1: of Seminal Wind is when the guy sits on a

689
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:22,200
Speaker 1: cypress stump and he can hear the voice of Osceola

690
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:28,480
Speaker 1: cry and this was a huge, like huge country song,

691
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:32,399
Speaker 1: and it would be probably my guess would be that

692
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:35,000
Speaker 1: that would be the same way we recently interviewed by

693
00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:44,680
Speaker 1: individual about uh, the Edmund Fitzgerald and like this, Ah

694
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:49,479
Speaker 1: Gordon Lightfoot's the wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald is many

695
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:52,799
Speaker 1: people's passageway into knowing that there is a thing, a

696
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:56,400
Speaker 1: shipwreck called the Edmund Fitzgerald. I would say seminal wind

697
00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:01,440
Speaker 1: for many people was probably there introduction to these terms

698
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:04,160
Speaker 1: for people that far away from Florida.

699
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:07,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, and Aciola too, you know, he's that he's still

700
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:09,480
Speaker 3: the icon of the Florida Seminal football team.

701
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:13,879
Speaker 1: So explain his background, Osiola, because he's gonna as we're

702
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:17,120
Speaker 1: gonna get into the wars, he emerges as a primary

703
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:19,080
Speaker 1: figure and you focus on you might as well do this.

704
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:22,759
Speaker 1: Yeah you focus on Osciola, Yeah, you focus on Abraham.

705
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:26,440
Speaker 1: So can you give us some biographical sketch of these

706
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:29,280
Speaker 1: two like really different folks?

707
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:30,040
Speaker 2: Sure?

708
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:34,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, So, so I broke down a little what he

709
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:40,160
Speaker 3: came out of as a as a boy. He's Creek,

710
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:45,800
Speaker 3: he allies himself with a powerful mikazuki chief named Sam

711
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:52,120
Speaker 3: Jones or Abyaka. We called him Sam Jones, and he's

712
00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:55,920
Speaker 3: a military enforcer figure for him.

713
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:57,919
Speaker 2: Uh, he's one.

714
00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:01,880
Speaker 3: Of the most famous Native American in American history. I

715
00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:06,280
Speaker 3: mean he's everywhere in the press, He's in European papers.

716
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:08,960
Speaker 2: He becomes in his day.

717
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:15,760
Speaker 3: In his day, in his day, he becomes this mythologized figure.

718
00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:22,360
Speaker 3: His character is how would I describe his character? He's

719
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:24,880
Speaker 3: an angry young man.

720
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:28,560
Speaker 4: When we meet him in the book is when he's

721
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:33,359
Speaker 4: in prison for five or six I mean, that's a vivid.

722
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:36,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, anecdote, I could start there. It's a memorable introduction day.

723
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:36,840
Speaker 1: Yeah.

724
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:40,640
Speaker 3: So Andrew Jackson sends down this Indian agent, Wiley Thompson,

725
00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:43,640
Speaker 3: down to Florida, down to this place called Fort King

726
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:48,200
Speaker 3: which is present day Okala, and Thompson's job is really

727
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 3: to convince them to leave without.

728
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:52,960
Speaker 2: A war, because they don't want home, because they don't

729
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:54,200
Speaker 2: want to spend the money on a war.

730
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 3: So it's cheaper to send someone down and kind of

731
00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:58,920
Speaker 3: try to convince them I'm your friend, and if not,

732
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:01,480
Speaker 3: we'll fight a war. But we're really friends and I'm

733
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:05,239
Speaker 3: a nice federal guy, and these locals. Geez, these locials,

734
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:06,200
Speaker 3: they're kind of corrupt.

735
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:07,200
Speaker 2: Actually.

736
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:09,080
Speaker 3: At one point he says, you've been cheated in the

737
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:11,239
Speaker 3: past by these locals. But you know, all bad men

738
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:14,720
Speaker 3: are not yet dead, which I wanted for the title

739
00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:15,680
Speaker 3: all bad Men.

740
00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:17,960
Speaker 2: They wouldn't let me have it. All bad men are

741
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:18,600
Speaker 2: not yet dead.

742
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:22,040
Speaker 3: So anyway, he sends him down here and and Asciola,

743
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:26,560
Speaker 3: who knows who Jackson is, who knows American intentions, has

744
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:29,839
Speaker 3: to sit in these council meetings and listen to these

745
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:36,839
Speaker 3: letters written by Jackson, saying you know, yeah, so it's

746
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:38,879
Speaker 3: like I got to sit here and listen to this.

747
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:43,160
Speaker 3: So he storms into Wilie Thompson's office in I want

748
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:46,640
Speaker 3: to say April eighteen thirty five, it's before the war begins,

749
00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:52,279
Speaker 3: by by eight months, and he cusses them out, and

750
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:55,000
Speaker 3: he says, you know, you say that we have to leave,

751
00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:58,880
Speaker 3: like you have to leave. You say that it's going

752
00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:02,160
Speaker 3: to be bad for us, It's gonna be bad for you.

753
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:02,360
Speaker 1: You know.

754
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:04,400
Speaker 2: There's a quote.

755
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:06,919
Speaker 3: I'm not sure if it's true because there's so much mythologized,

756
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:10,160
Speaker 3: but I put it in. But it appears in nineteen

757
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:11,960
Speaker 3: a little later after the wordy eighteen fifty three, and

758
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:15,560
Speaker 3: he says, I'm gonna I'm gonna kill you, and I'm

759
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:17,719
Speaker 3: gonna leave your body out in the rain and the

760
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:19,840
Speaker 3: sun is going to turn your skin black and the

761
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:21,960
Speaker 3: vultures are going to pick the flesh off of you.

762
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:29,040
Speaker 1: And yeah, which was as we're getting too, it is oddly.

763
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:33,440
Speaker 2: Prophetic, that's what happens. Not oddly prophetic, it's what happens.

764
00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:37,160
Speaker 3: So this is the second time, or at least in

765
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:40,840
Speaker 3: Thompson's records, he says, I had warned him before, you

766
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:44,920
Speaker 3: can't talk to me that way. And so I see,

767
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:46,239
Speaker 3: oh that he doesn't do anything when I.

768
00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:49,200
Speaker 1: Saw Thompson says, I've told you before, don't come and

769
00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:49,759
Speaker 1: say this to me.

770
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:52,759
Speaker 3: In his records, he when he's explaining this incident, he said,

771
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:55,839
Speaker 3: I had warned him before, you can't insult me this way.

772
00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:58,040
Speaker 3: You can't threaten me in this way. And then he

773
00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:00,880
Speaker 3: said he did it again, So it had that happened before.

774
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:03,759
Speaker 3: He doesn't do anything.

775
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:06,919
Speaker 1: When yeah, so on this big well known tirade, Yes,

776
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:10,640
Speaker 1: and Thompson says, this isn't the first time.

777
00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:12,719
Speaker 3: It's not the first time this has happened, and so

778
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:14,719
Speaker 3: he locks him up. He doesn't personally do it.

779
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:17,760
Speaker 2: He waits till Aciola leaves, and two hundred yards outside

780
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:20,839
Speaker 2: of the agency house, he has four guards wrestle him

781
00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:22,640
Speaker 2: to the ground and they struggle, and they lock him

782
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:28,040
Speaker 2: up for six days and Asiola is stewing in what

783
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:31,879
Speaker 2: passes for a prison, they call it the guardhouse. And

784
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:34,840
Speaker 2: the next day he says, Okay, I've changed my mind.

785
00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:42,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, well that's jumping. But yeah, he can't convince

786
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:45,839
Speaker 4: him that he's calmed down. So he's like, send this

787
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:48,799
Speaker 4: other guy. I'll convince him that I've calmed down, and

788
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:50,799
Speaker 4: then he'll convince you that I've calmed down.

789
00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:55,160
Speaker 3: Because this is all just so Yeah, that's a good correction.

790
00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:57,000
Speaker 3: I don't know, because that actually becomes important.

791
00:42:57,040 --> 00:42:59,680
Speaker 4: This was a very memorable story for me.

792
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:02,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, that becomes important. So there's a there's a there's

793
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:05,720
Speaker 3: a Greek cattleman who's a chief, whose name is Charlie Amathla,

794
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:09,279
Speaker 3: and he's faced with the same decision everyone else is,

795
00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:12,560
Speaker 3: which is you know, leave or it's war more or less?

796
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:15,000
Speaker 3: Do you want to put your family through that. He's

797
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:16,879
Speaker 3: got two daughters, he's got a seven year old kid.

798
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:17,799
Speaker 2: He's creak.

799
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:20,839
Speaker 3: He knows what happened in present day Alabama and Georgia.

800
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:23,360
Speaker 3: You know, what do you want to risk? Do you

801
00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:25,000
Speaker 3: want to risk it? Are you gonna put your face?

802
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:25,200
Speaker 1: You know?

803
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:28,120
Speaker 3: So he decides to leave. Now some literatures call him

804
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:31,960
Speaker 3: a friendly chief. It's not the correct word. But but

805
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:35,800
Speaker 3: he's decided to leave. And so Aciola says, bring Charlie Amathla.

806
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:38,839
Speaker 3: You trust him. He's leaving, and I'll talk to him.

807
00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:39,200
Speaker 2: And he does.

808
00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 3: He convinced that there's no record of what they said.

809
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:45,720
Speaker 3: But but Charlie A Mafler goes to Thompson and he says,

810
00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:48,440
Speaker 3: you know, I'm sure he gets it. He just had

811
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:51,080
Speaker 3: a he just lost his temper. But he understands that

812
00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:53,799
Speaker 3: he's going to go and you should release him. And

813
00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:56,600
Speaker 3: he'll come back with eighty of his people and they'll they'll,

814
00:43:57,080 --> 00:43:59,560
Speaker 3: you know, true to their professions. They will pledge that

815
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:01,480
Speaker 3: they're going to go west. They're gonna immigrate with the

816
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:05,440
Speaker 3: rest of us. And that's what happens. And not to

817
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:10,040
Speaker 3: jump not to jump ahead, but Oscila kills Amafla in

818
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:12,360
Speaker 3: front of at least one of his daughters as a

819
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:17,000
Speaker 3: warning to other leaders, not to break off, not to leave,

820
00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:20,880
Speaker 3: because he doesn't want to happen what happened in Alabama

821
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:22,000
Speaker 3: and Georgia, What happened.

822
00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:22,560
Speaker 2: To the Creek Confederates.

823
00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:23,640
Speaker 1: How does he kill him?

824
00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:27,760
Speaker 3: There are a few different stories, some of them seem

825
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:31,719
Speaker 3: to me to be clearly made up. The famous version,

826
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:34,279
Speaker 3: so he goes with Abraham, Chief Abraham, who's the chief

827
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:35,200
Speaker 3: of the Black Seminoles.

828
00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:38,040
Speaker 2: All the stories put them together. They go to a Mathla.

829
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:38,319
Speaker 1: Either.

830
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:40,560
Speaker 3: One story is they meet him at a Mathla's house

831
00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:44,160
Speaker 3: and Abraham says, you really shouldn't go. You want to stay,

832
00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:47,120
Speaker 3: fight with us, keep your army with us. You can't

833
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:48,920
Speaker 3: have the army size cut in half, which is what

834
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:54,040
Speaker 3: would have happened. And eight of the thirteen chiefs, you know,

835
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:56,839
Speaker 3: at first, agreed to go. So you're gonna have your

836
00:44:56,920 --> 00:45:00,200
Speaker 3: fighting force cut in half. So Abraham says to go.

837
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:03,200
Speaker 3: He's trying to convince him. Acola tries to convince him

838
00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:06,359
Speaker 3: he's not going to change his mind. By one version,

839
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:09,800
Speaker 3: Aciola raises the rifle to him and Abraham hits the

840
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:12,680
Speaker 3: rifle in the air, preventing his murder. I don't know

841
00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:17,359
Speaker 3: if that's true. Another version is he killed Imathla on

842
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:19,480
Speaker 3: the road. So one of the things that they were

843
00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:22,000
Speaker 3: going to do before the immigration is they agreed to

844
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:26,680
Speaker 3: buy all the seminal cattle. So they arranged an auction

845
00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:30,120
Speaker 3: and I think it was going to be December first,

846
00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:32,040
Speaker 3: and we're going to have an auction of all your cattle.

847
00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:35,319
Speaker 3: So you because you can't bring that with you. So

848
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:39,640
Speaker 3: the story goes, who would be just go ahead, sorry,

849
00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:40,200
Speaker 3: not at all.

850
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:42,120
Speaker 2: Who's going to buy the candle?

851
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:43,840
Speaker 1: Locals? White folks?

852
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:48,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, you got You have sixteen thousand

853
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:49,760
Speaker 3: white settlers there.

854
00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:51,439
Speaker 1: Since we're making you all leave. Yeah, and you can't

855
00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:54,600
Speaker 1: bring your cattle, give you your new neighbors. Yeah, these

856
00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:57,239
Speaker 1: white folks buy your cattle, and they're at a reasonable press.

857
00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:00,560
Speaker 4: And these people have been sitting there for you know,

858
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:04,360
Speaker 4: a decade or more, kind of rubbing their hands, waiting

859
00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:08,680
Speaker 4: for the government to do something about the tribes.

860
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:09,879
Speaker 2: Yes, they have that's right.

861
00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:13,120
Speaker 3: They're certainly ready for this, and they're ready to become

862
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:15,000
Speaker 3: a state and they want to settle the state. So

863
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:21,000
Speaker 3: in their minds, that means the native population has to go.

864
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:25,040
Speaker 3: So one of the stories is in Mathla was paid

865
00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:28,360
Speaker 3: for his cattle he's taking gold back away from the auction,

866
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:31,959
Speaker 3: and Abraham is with and Aciola shoots him and takes

867
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:34,759
Speaker 3: the gold and scatters the gold over his body, and

868
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:37,920
Speaker 3: he goes to Abraham, who's in danger of being enslaved,

869
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:39,560
Speaker 3: and he says, see this as the price of your

870
00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:42,120
Speaker 3: blood in a way, see this as the price of

871
00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:45,920
Speaker 3: your freedom. The problem with that story is it happens

872
00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:54,280
Speaker 3: five days before the auction. So yeah, So the story

873
00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:56,640
Speaker 3: that I believe, and there's a it's a very mundane story,

874
00:46:56,640 --> 00:46:59,879
Speaker 3: and it circulates, i want to say, in Jacksonville right afterwards,

875
00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:04,279
Speaker 3: primary source, and it says that he shot him while

876
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:07,160
Speaker 3: he was gathering his cattle for the auction, in front

877
00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:07,479
Speaker 3: of one.

878
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:08,800
Speaker 1: With the calendar.

879
00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:13,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's more plausible. It's not as dramatic, guns him down,

880
00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:14,239
Speaker 2: guns him down.

881
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:17,960
Speaker 3: And this becomes controversial, and I think it's to some

882
00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:21,120
Speaker 3: extent controversial to this day in the Semino tribe of Florida,

883
00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:25,879
Speaker 3: you know, and Mafla has ancestors too as descendants too.

884
00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:29,720
Speaker 2: How are we supposed to look at this? On one hand,

885
00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:32,000
Speaker 2: you understand where Aciola is coming from.

886
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:34,360
Speaker 3: He's trying, you know, he wants to fight. On the

887
00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:36,879
Speaker 3: other hand, You're going to kill a guy in front

888
00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:40,759
Speaker 3: of his daughter who's trying to avoid war. It's tough,

889
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:42,480
Speaker 3: but that's what happened.

890
00:47:44,719 --> 00:47:48,800
Speaker 1: Should we take this up to let's finish up with Thompson? Sure,

891
00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:50,400
Speaker 1: before we tell the story of Abraham.

892
00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:52,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, do you do you want me to kill Thompson?

893
00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:57,480
Speaker 1: Sure? Yeah. So we already kind of broke it by

894
00:47:57,520 --> 00:48:00,400
Speaker 1: saying that. He says, here's what's going to happen. Yeah.

895
00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:02,840
Speaker 2: So so Osciola gets out of jail.

896
00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:07,719
Speaker 3: As soon as Thompson hears a body Mathla's murder, he

897
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:11,400
Speaker 3: knows it's game over, and he writes Washington and he

898
00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:15,720
Speaker 3: says military force is going to be needed more or less.

899
00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:18,520
Speaker 3: I failed, like, these guys aren't going to leave will

900
00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:21,399
Speaker 3: Ford not happening. And now that now that he did that,

901
00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:24,200
Speaker 3: it has the result that they know Ostila didn't do

902
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:28,520
Speaker 3: this alone. I'm sure that superiors to him told him

903
00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:32,440
Speaker 3: Killy Mafla. In any case, this wasn't a rogue action.

904
00:48:32,680 --> 00:48:35,360
Speaker 3: I don't think he had complete consensus, but it's not

905
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:40,000
Speaker 3: him out on his own. So yeah, And so that

906
00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:42,520
Speaker 3: you have a number of the of the people who

907
00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:44,960
Speaker 3: are going to leave, who are going to immigrate.

908
00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:45,080
Speaker 2: They stay.

909
00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:48,160
Speaker 3: So it does it does have the effect that he wants.

910
00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:53,160
Speaker 3: So Thompson says, okay, I failed, and he's kind of

911
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:59,480
Speaker 3: waiting around to go back home to Georgia. And that's

912
00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:01,640
Speaker 3: when you have I have a few of the most

913
00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:04,240
Speaker 3: dramatic events of the war and in the book happen

914
00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:08,040
Speaker 3: at the same time, one of which is the assassination

915
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:12,840
Speaker 3: of Wiley Thompson by Aciola and forty Mikazuki warriors, or

916
00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:16,600
Speaker 3: the killing at Fort King. They have a war council

917
00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:20,399
Speaker 3: and you have troops coming up from Tampa Bay, from

918
00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:22,720
Speaker 3: Fort Brook. You have one hundred troops that are marching

919
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:26,200
Speaker 3: up what's called the Fort King Road. It's right through

920
00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:29,239
Speaker 3: the heart of the Indian reservation, and they're planning to

921
00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:31,759
Speaker 3: attack the Seminoles and the Black Seminoles. And they have

922
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:35,160
Speaker 3: a date for the attack December thirty first, And so

923
00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:36,040
Speaker 3: they meet in council.

924
00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:38,799
Speaker 2: They say, okay, we've got two priorities.

925
00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:41,400
Speaker 3: We've got to get Thompson out of the way, and

926
00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:43,400
Speaker 3: we've got to handle Daid and these one hundred and

927
00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:47,279
Speaker 3: eight men who are marching up towards our reservation. And

928
00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:52,040
Speaker 3: Aciola says, I'll take Thompson, he's my friend, and I

929
00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:53,839
Speaker 3: will see to him.

930
00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:58,960
Speaker 2: And so he goes up to you know, he's ordered

931
00:49:58,960 --> 00:49:59,360
Speaker 2: to attack.

932
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:03,000
Speaker 3: The for only has fifty soldiers at the time, but

933
00:50:03,239 --> 00:50:04,600
Speaker 3: he waits in ambush.

934
00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:07,520
Speaker 2: He waits for over a day.

935
00:50:07,600 --> 00:50:12,400
Speaker 3: He later says he lured Thompson's spirit to him. He

936
00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:15,279
Speaker 3: waits in the woods near So there's the agency house

937
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:17,200
Speaker 3: where Thompson lives and works, and then there's a little

938
00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:22,040
Speaker 3: Suttler store, which is a civilian like storekeeper guy, and

939
00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:25,719
Speaker 3: he's got some clerks. And that's some yards maybe eight

940
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:31,960
Speaker 3: hundred yards or down away from the fort. So Thompson

941
00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:35,320
Speaker 3: and the companion, I think an officer, they're having dinner.

942
00:50:35,400 --> 00:50:38,120
Speaker 3: They decide to have a smoke after dinner, Let's have

943
00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:41,520
Speaker 3: a little stroll with our cigar. And he walks down

944
00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:45,120
Speaker 3: near the Sutler store near these woods where Aciola and

945
00:50:45,200 --> 00:50:51,160
Speaker 3: forty warriors are waiting, and Aciola's war cry is heard.

946
00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:55,480
Speaker 3: It's apparently a distinctive shrill war cry. There's two other

947
00:50:55,600 --> 00:50:58,240
Speaker 3: chiefs there who are denoted by chiefs by their attire,

948
00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:01,960
Speaker 3: but nobody knows who they are. Aciola has already gotten

949
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:05,959
Speaker 3: famous for killing Imatla in the American press. He's also

950
00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:09,680
Speaker 3: gotten variety for being loud in council, so his fame

951
00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:14,840
Speaker 3: starts off because he's the most vocal. So we sort of,

952
00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:19,680
Speaker 3: you know, the records track him because he's put a

953
00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:21,560
Speaker 3: target on his back and away in his own back.

954
00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:30,560
Speaker 3: And Thompson is shot fourteen times. I believe there's a

955
00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:36,279
Speaker 3: deep knife wound to his breast, he is scalped. There

956
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:40,240
Speaker 3: may be a club musket to his head. It's pretty

957
00:51:40,680 --> 00:51:45,560
Speaker 3: pretty gruesome. The storekeeper also killed in the same manner.

958
00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:48,280
Speaker 1: And they well, dude, he was having a smoke with.

959
00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:53,640
Speaker 3: That guy dies too, so far, Yeah, whips no surprises

960
00:51:53,680 --> 00:51:58,920
Speaker 3: in this story. Yeah, that guy dies too, and the

961
00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:03,000
Speaker 3: troops are I think it's a faint. They think it's

962
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:07,520
Speaker 3: a distraction, and they fortify in the fort. They get

963
00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:10,000
Speaker 3: one of the bodies the next day, and they bury

964
00:52:10,120 --> 00:52:14,880
Speaker 3: Thompson at the fort temporarily and then and then his

965
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:17,880
Speaker 3: wife gets him back and his bones go back to Everton, Georgia,

966
00:52:17,920 --> 00:52:20,720
Speaker 3: and she keeps his bones under her.

967
00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:26,160
Speaker 2: Bed for a year. Yeah, but that's a different time period.

968
00:52:26,080 --> 00:52:26,560
Speaker 1: Yeah man.

969
00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:30,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, And that's the start of the war. And simultaneously,

970
00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:35,440
Speaker 3: Abraham and Chief Miconopi who's the head of the us.

971
00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:37,839
Speaker 3: He's the chief, he's a seminal chief, but he's also

972
00:52:37,880 --> 00:52:40,160
Speaker 3: ostensibly the head of all of the tribes and bands.

973
00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:41,760
Speaker 2: Attack.

974
00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:44,480
Speaker 1: Daid tell us about before we get into that attack,

975
00:52:44,480 --> 00:52:47,600
Speaker 1: which is fascinating, And what did you pick up with

976
00:52:47,719 --> 00:52:50,520
Speaker 1: Ossiola steaking out to kill this guy and then the

977
00:52:52,239 --> 00:52:54,120
Speaker 1: I know some people call it the Dade mask or

978
00:52:54,120 --> 00:52:57,359
Speaker 1: the Dade fight. Whatever you gather. Man, these dudes are

979
00:52:57,360 --> 00:53:01,800
Speaker 1: like one with the swamp. Yeah, I mean the ability

980
00:53:01,840 --> 00:53:06,360
Speaker 1: to just vanish into like stake up and hide, yeah,

981
00:53:06,960 --> 00:53:08,640
Speaker 1: and surprise people's astounding.

982
00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:13,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's like a big parallel here, I think to

983
00:53:14,320 --> 00:53:17,360
Speaker 4: a lot of stuff that I've read about slave rebellions

984
00:53:17,360 --> 00:53:21,040
Speaker 4: in the Caribbean, where it's just the landscape and the

985
00:53:21,040 --> 00:53:25,360
Speaker 4: ecology of that place is just sort of used almost

986
00:53:25,360 --> 00:53:30,120
Speaker 4: as a weapon against the whites, you know, whether they're

987
00:53:30,360 --> 00:53:32,000
Speaker 4: colonists or the army.

988
00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:36,000
Speaker 3: In this case, one in fact Colonel Taylor, who later

989
00:53:36,520 --> 00:53:39,040
Speaker 3: becomes president, but he later leads the forces in Florida,

990
00:53:39,080 --> 00:53:42,239
Speaker 3: and he says the climate and the terrain are much

991
00:53:42,239 --> 00:53:45,960
Speaker 3: more lethal than the enemy. One of the things that

992
00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:48,239
Speaker 3: they say that he also says. He says, we tried

993
00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:50,799
Speaker 3: to catch them. This is later in the war when

994
00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:53,440
Speaker 3: they have fled from us. Not once have we been

995
00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:57,200
Speaker 3: able to overtake them. There's one of your videos where

996
00:53:57,239 --> 00:54:00,600
Speaker 3: you say, I think maybe you're in South America. We're like,

997
00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:04,680
Speaker 3: there's no way that I could move through the bush

998
00:54:04,719 --> 00:54:08,960
Speaker 3: as quickly as some of these indigenous from Yeah. Yeah,

999
00:54:09,160 --> 00:54:12,120
Speaker 3: And and the soldiers are laden down. You know, they're

1000
00:54:12,160 --> 00:54:15,200
Speaker 3: carrying things. They're carrying they don't know how. You know,

1001
00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:20,600
Speaker 3: they've got rations, they've got they've got heavy ammunition they've

1002
00:54:20,600 --> 00:54:24,319
Speaker 3: got they're carrying. They've got their heavy uniforms. And the

1003
00:54:24,320 --> 00:54:27,239
Speaker 3: seminal forces are living off the land. They know where

1004
00:54:27,239 --> 00:54:29,439
Speaker 3: the food is, they know where the dry places are,

1005
00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:33,160
Speaker 3: they know where the crossings of the rivers are, which.

1006
00:54:32,960 --> 00:54:36,760
Speaker 1: They vanish into the water. Man they like eat alligators,

1007
00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:39,719
Speaker 1: They catch fish, they dig roots, they find oranges.

1008
00:54:40,040 --> 00:54:43,319
Speaker 2: They do all of that very successfully.

1009
00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:48,839
Speaker 3: And you know it's it's General Jessup who who's the

1010
00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:51,239
Speaker 3: main figure of the book. He says at one point,

1011
00:54:51,719 --> 00:54:55,560
Speaker 3: the nature of the country is such that an army

1012
00:54:55,760 --> 00:55:00,320
Speaker 3: of of you know, five hundred could hold it against

1013
00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:02,960
Speaker 3: an army of ten thousand or something like that.

1014
00:55:03,800 --> 00:55:06,160
Speaker 2: You know, if we call it a war.

1015
00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:11,080
Speaker 3: But if you're going to use the landscape against the enemy, that's.

1016
00:55:11,719 --> 00:55:13,359
Speaker 2: Not normally how we think of a war.

1017
00:55:13,400 --> 00:55:15,520
Speaker 3: We think of a war where I meet you on

1018
00:55:15,560 --> 00:55:18,120
Speaker 3: the battlefield, we are agreeing to fight. Well, what if

1019
00:55:18,160 --> 00:55:20,480
Speaker 3: I don't agree to fight, or what if I agree

1020
00:55:20,520 --> 00:55:24,080
Speaker 3: to fight on my terms? That is okay, I'm here

1021
00:55:24,280 --> 00:55:26,240
Speaker 3: in a perfect position for me to ambush.

1022
00:55:26,239 --> 00:55:26,399
Speaker 1: You.

1023
00:55:26,480 --> 00:55:29,319
Speaker 3: Come come over here, come walk into my ambush. And

1024
00:55:29,360 --> 00:55:32,960
Speaker 3: so they selected the battlefields and the army was forced

1025
00:55:33,000 --> 00:55:35,280
Speaker 3: to go into their chosen battlefields.

1026
00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:40,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a comment someone makes in I don't know

1027
00:55:40,880 --> 00:55:42,680
Speaker 1: if you covered in your book or if I heard

1028
00:55:42,719 --> 00:55:45,200
Speaker 1: someone mention it in Clay's piece, but it would be

1029
00:55:45,239 --> 00:55:49,320
Speaker 1: that they would fight as long as it was going

1030
00:55:49,560 --> 00:55:52,000
Speaker 1: the way they wanted it to go. Yeah, but they

1031
00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:56,440
Speaker 1: were not beholden to sort of a battle plan. Yes,

1032
00:55:56,520 --> 00:55:59,160
Speaker 1: if things look good for an ambush, we'll do the ambush.

1033
00:55:59,160 --> 00:56:00,440
Speaker 1: If they don't, we're out of here.

1034
00:56:00,280 --> 00:56:04,040
Speaker 3: Absolutely, absolutely, And and what have you achieved if they

1035
00:56:04,120 --> 00:56:09,799
Speaker 3: if everyone gets away? You know, it's it's the use

1036
00:56:09,840 --> 00:56:13,719
Speaker 3: of the land and and the slow you know, they

1037
00:56:13,800 --> 00:56:16,879
Speaker 3: hire topographers, like how do we figure out where we're going?

1038
00:56:17,120 --> 00:56:22,279
Speaker 3: Where is everyone? And they disperse intentionally. There's a there's

1039
00:56:22,320 --> 00:56:25,840
Speaker 3: a general named Scott who is briefly uh in the

1040
00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:28,480
Speaker 3: head of the war in Florida, and he has like

1041
00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:33,560
Speaker 3: a Napoleonic handbook for like for you know, fighting in

1042
00:56:33,680 --> 00:56:38,919
Speaker 3: lines and fields and and this is bush fighting. They're

1043
00:56:38,920 --> 00:56:41,920
Speaker 3: not used to this. They're not used to guerrilla warfare.

1044
00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:44,759
Speaker 3: That's what this is. There's an early event in the

1045
00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:49,160
Speaker 3: war in which a male a mailman is killed. A

1046
00:56:49,160 --> 00:56:52,719
Speaker 3: messenger is killed, and he's going up the Fort King

1047
00:56:52,800 --> 00:56:56,520
Speaker 3: Road and it's a hit and run. It's boom. They

1048
00:56:56,520 --> 00:56:58,960
Speaker 3: take care of business and they're gone. And there's a

1049
00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:01,839
Speaker 3: moment where the general realizes he says, okay, I have

1050
00:57:02,560 --> 00:57:04,120
Speaker 3: seven hundred troops at max.

1051
00:57:04,480 --> 00:57:07,319
Speaker 2: That should be enough. Oh unless they use hit and

1052
00:57:07,400 --> 00:57:08,120
Speaker 2: run tactics.

1053
00:57:09,160 --> 00:57:11,319
Speaker 3: And then he sort of writes a panic letter like

1054
00:57:11,800 --> 00:57:14,440
Speaker 3: we might be in trouble here because if they're not

1055
00:57:14,480 --> 00:57:17,400
Speaker 3: going to meet us in a mass, that's a whole

1056
00:57:17,440 --> 00:57:21,280
Speaker 3: different kind of warfare. And one soldier calls it a hunt.

1057
00:57:22,080 --> 00:57:25,960
Speaker 3: M this has dissolved. This has devolved into a hunt.

1058
00:57:26,880 --> 00:57:28,760
Speaker 3: And and you know a lot of people quit because

1059
00:57:28,760 --> 00:57:31,360
Speaker 3: of that. There's no glory to be had in that

1060
00:57:31,480 --> 00:57:31,920
Speaker 3: kind of fight.

1061
00:57:32,040 --> 00:57:36,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, you quote different guys soldiers to get sent down there,

1062
00:57:37,240 --> 00:57:39,160
Speaker 1: and after a couple of days you're like, this ain't

1063
00:57:39,160 --> 00:57:41,840
Speaker 1: what I signed up for. You know, there's I signed

1064
00:57:41,880 --> 00:57:43,600
Speaker 1: up for a big gunfight that we win.

1065
00:57:43,800 --> 00:57:46,840
Speaker 2: That's right. Now, that's right. Where's my where's my gunfight?

1066
00:57:47,400 --> 00:57:50,280
Speaker 3: There's a sequence in which you know the war has started,

1067
00:57:50,400 --> 00:57:53,760
Speaker 3: and you you have in New Orleans reports in the

1068
00:57:53,800 --> 00:57:58,120
Speaker 3: newspaper of things that are not happening. It's like, oh,

1069
00:57:58,160 --> 00:58:01,960
Speaker 3: the the Indians are killing all of the settlers and

1070
00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:05,720
Speaker 3: they're slaughtering everyone, and it's a it's a war of extermination.

1071
00:58:05,920 --> 00:58:09,080
Speaker 3: This is not happening, but they're using it as recruitment.

1072
00:58:09,480 --> 00:58:11,920
Speaker 3: And so there's an American flag outside of the customs

1073
00:58:11,920 --> 00:58:14,640
Speaker 3: house and all the soldiers sign up and they take.

1074
00:58:14,520 --> 00:58:18,440
Speaker 2: Them like social psychology or there you go. There it is, Yeah,

1075
00:58:18,480 --> 00:58:19,480
Speaker 2: well that's what it is.

1076
00:58:19,640 --> 00:58:21,880
Speaker 3: So I mean, if somebody said that to me, I

1077
00:58:21,920 --> 00:58:25,400
Speaker 3: would sign up, like, okay, you know, let's go.

1078
00:58:25,480 --> 00:58:26,200
Speaker 2: Those are my people.

1079
00:58:26,680 --> 00:58:28,840
Speaker 1: When the truth is more like they're trying to get

1080
00:58:28,840 --> 00:58:31,680
Speaker 1: a stay away from you out in the swamps living

1081
00:58:31,680 --> 00:58:32,960
Speaker 1: a subsistence lifestyle.

1082
00:58:33,280 --> 00:58:36,520
Speaker 2: They just want to but you just go away. Mostly, yes, yeah.

1083
00:58:36,640 --> 00:58:40,280
Speaker 2: They you know, Abraham retreats into the COVID with Lakuchi along.

1084
00:58:40,320 --> 00:58:44,000
Speaker 1: Given, you gotta give Abraham's background. Sorry, yeah, the Daid fight. Yeah, yeah,

1085
00:58:44,400 --> 00:58:46,040
Speaker 1: because this is early. We got to back up to

1086
00:58:46,080 --> 00:58:46,760
Speaker 1: early in the war.

1087
00:58:46,960 --> 00:58:50,040
Speaker 3: There's yeah, there's a lot of exposition in this story.

1088
00:58:50,560 --> 00:58:54,640
Speaker 3: There's a lot of context. So Abraham is a I

1089
00:58:54,680 --> 00:59:00,720
Speaker 3: love it. I love Abraham. He's a diplomat, he's very poised.

1090
00:59:00,800 --> 00:59:05,400
Speaker 3: He is nominally Miconope's interpreter, so Miconopee is the seminole chief.

1091
00:59:06,240 --> 00:59:09,600
Speaker 3: The Whites think he's just the interpreter. He's more than that.

1092
00:59:10,240 --> 00:59:13,280
Speaker 3: He is also Miconope's sense bearer along with his chief

1093
00:59:13,360 --> 00:59:13,960
Speaker 3: named Jumper.

1094
00:59:15,600 --> 00:59:17,840
Speaker 2: The conciliers, yes, like the.

1095
00:59:17,760 --> 00:59:22,240
Speaker 3: Privy councilor or the Prime minister. He's the advisor. He's

1096
00:59:22,320 --> 00:59:26,360
Speaker 3: the keeper of the king conscience. So he's the interpreter

1097
00:59:26,440 --> 00:59:31,160
Speaker 3: and the advisor, and he is. The traditional story is

1098
00:59:31,200 --> 00:59:35,240
Speaker 3: that he escaped from an owner in Pensacola. I found

1099
00:59:35,280 --> 00:59:38,840
Speaker 3: evidence that from him directly. He can't say where he

1100
00:59:38,880 --> 00:59:42,600
Speaker 3: was born, but he was born among the seminoles in Florida.

1101
00:59:43,080 --> 00:59:47,120
Speaker 3: And there's several other pieces of evidence that to me,

1102
00:59:47,280 --> 00:59:48,560
Speaker 3: without a doubt say that he was born.

1103
00:59:48,960 --> 00:59:51,280
Speaker 1: Does his age line up like his age lines up

1104
00:59:51,280 --> 00:59:54,520
Speaker 1: with that potential. Yeah, absolutely, he was Maybe maybe his

1105
00:59:54,760 --> 00:59:56,560
Speaker 1: parents were escaped slaves.

1106
00:59:56,720 --> 00:59:58,040
Speaker 2: He would not surprise me.

1107
00:59:58,200 --> 01:00:01,520
Speaker 3: If his parents were pow was taken in preak grades

1108
01:00:01,600 --> 01:00:03,960
Speaker 3: during the Revolutionary War, that would not surprise me.

1109
01:00:04,080 --> 01:00:08,400
Speaker 1: So his parents are maybe brought into Florida by the Creek,

1110
01:00:08,520 --> 01:00:13,440
Speaker 1: and then he because it wasn't chattel slavery, hes to

1111
01:00:13,800 --> 01:00:17,800
Speaker 1: he was born among the seminole rolls to a position

1112
01:00:17,840 --> 01:00:20,280
Speaker 1: of prominence to where he's like a right hand man.

1113
01:00:20,640 --> 01:00:24,600
Speaker 3: Achieve he's formally adopted, and he's formally freed in eighteen thirty.

1114
01:00:26,840 --> 01:00:30,480
Speaker 3: There's maybe fifteen of this five hundred or maybe twenty

1115
01:00:30,560 --> 01:00:33,520
Speaker 3: who are formally free.

1116
01:00:35,120 --> 01:00:37,040
Speaker 2: What else can I say about Abraham.

1117
01:00:37,200 --> 01:00:40,720
Speaker 3: He's described by the army as having a continence which

1118
01:00:40,760 --> 01:00:46,880
Speaker 3: none can read. He's described as a real Martin van Buren,

1119
01:00:47,960 --> 01:00:49,240
Speaker 3: as a political animal.

1120
01:00:49,880 --> 01:00:50,880
Speaker 1: He is.

1121
01:00:51,240 --> 01:00:57,000
Speaker 3: He speaks softly with a gentil with a gentile emphasis.

1122
01:00:57,760 --> 01:01:00,200
Speaker 3: He is said to have a great deal of fun

1123
01:01:00,280 --> 01:01:01,640
Speaker 3: about him.

1124
01:01:01,680 --> 01:01:03,080
Speaker 2: He is said to be artful.

1125
01:01:03,600 --> 01:01:06,960
Speaker 3: He is said to have more wit in his left eye,

1126
01:01:06,960 --> 01:01:10,040
Speaker 3: because his right eye angles inward than most men.

1127
01:01:10,160 --> 01:01:11,240
Speaker 2: Do in both.

1128
01:01:11,520 --> 01:01:13,280
Speaker 1: He's a real he's a real Ben Franklin.

1129
01:01:13,560 --> 01:01:20,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, well he's he's a he's a strange character. Two observers.

1130
01:01:20,800 --> 01:01:23,360
Speaker 3: You know, the there's a there's a role going back

1131
01:01:23,360 --> 01:01:26,760
Speaker 3: to at least eighteen oh two where you have black

1132
01:01:26,960 --> 01:01:31,080
Speaker 3: interpreter advisors. So there's the in the core seminal line,

1133
01:01:31,080 --> 01:01:34,000
Speaker 3: you basically have Cowkeeper and then you have King Pain

1134
01:01:34,120 --> 01:01:38,240
Speaker 3: and Boleck and then Mikenopie. And there's evidence tying Abraham

1135
01:01:38,280 --> 01:01:41,800
Speaker 3: to Pain. Now Pain was and Pain had a black

1136
01:01:41,840 --> 01:01:45,440
Speaker 3: seminal advisor. I think his name was Harry, and he

1137
01:01:45,520 --> 01:01:50,080
Speaker 3: was involved and in colonial diplomacy. So I think Abraham

1138
01:01:50,200 --> 01:01:54,440
Speaker 3: had black seminal mentors who acted as translators and advisors

1139
01:01:54,480 --> 01:01:57,320
Speaker 3: for the tribe as early as eighteen o two. And

1140
01:01:57,360 --> 01:02:00,160
Speaker 3: he comes into this position. I find him again in

1141
01:02:00,200 --> 01:02:05,480
Speaker 3: eighteen twenty two working as an interpreter. It appears as

1142
01:02:05,480 --> 01:02:08,560
Speaker 3: an apprentice for another black seminal interpreter, and then he

1143
01:02:08,640 --> 01:02:11,880
Speaker 3: becomes the chief interpreter of the tribe. And he has

1144
01:02:11,960 --> 01:02:14,440
Speaker 3: also described in eighteen thirty eight in a New Orleans

1145
01:02:14,520 --> 01:02:18,480
Speaker 3: newspaper as the chief principal interpreter of the tribe and

1146
01:02:18,560 --> 01:02:21,560
Speaker 3: the chief of the iste luste, which in the Muskogi

1147
01:02:21,640 --> 01:02:24,360
Speaker 3: language of the creak and Seminole means chief of the

1148
01:02:24,440 --> 01:02:27,120
Speaker 3: dark people, chief of the black people.

1149
01:02:27,400 --> 01:02:31,080
Speaker 4: And he's and he dresses according to Seminole custom.

1150
01:02:31,320 --> 01:02:32,920
Speaker 2: He dresses in the Seminole way.

1151
01:02:32,840 --> 01:02:33,080
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1152
01:02:34,280 --> 01:02:36,120
Speaker 3: When there's a trip he later takes as a as

1153
01:02:36,160 --> 01:02:38,040
Speaker 3: an older man to New York and they say he

1154
01:02:38,040 --> 01:02:39,440
Speaker 3: looks like othello.

1155
01:02:39,080 --> 01:02:45,160
Speaker 2: Reborn, you got a kid, That's what they say. He has.

1156
01:02:45,400 --> 01:02:50,600
Speaker 3: He has less servility than is usually a parent in

1157
01:02:52,040 --> 01:02:53,800
Speaker 3: African south of the Potomac.

1158
01:02:54,560 --> 01:02:57,480
Speaker 1: Hum. You know, I want to get into a brief

1159
01:02:57,680 --> 01:02:59,400
Speaker 1: tactical thing. Yeah, we get in the day of the

1160
01:02:59,480 --> 01:03:04,760
Speaker 1: day Abraham. Yeah, because you're talking about seminal dress as

1161
01:03:04,840 --> 01:03:07,120
Speaker 1: much as they're slipping up on people and tomahawk and

1162
01:03:07,160 --> 01:03:11,040
Speaker 1: them unawares and everything. What's what the red turbans are

1163
01:03:11,080 --> 01:03:11,760
Speaker 1: running around in?

1164
01:03:12,680 --> 01:03:14,600
Speaker 2: Are they wearing red turbans? There are a few of them,

1165
01:03:14,720 --> 01:03:15,320
Speaker 2: not all of them.

1166
01:03:15,400 --> 01:03:19,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, but what like why that like Osciole's always portrayed

1167
01:03:19,480 --> 01:03:22,320
Speaker 1: like that with a red turbine, something like a like

1168
01:03:22,360 --> 01:03:23,760
Speaker 1: a what do you call it? Yeah?

1169
01:03:23,840 --> 01:03:26,240
Speaker 3: They I mean you can look on the cover there

1170
01:03:26,280 --> 01:03:29,040
Speaker 3: that's a little later. That's eighteen fifty two, and you

1171
01:03:29,040 --> 01:03:31,440
Speaker 3: can see Abraham has kind of a different style of

1172
01:03:31,480 --> 01:03:34,120
Speaker 3: turbine and they have this kind of a hard sorry

1173
01:03:34,160 --> 01:03:36,800
Speaker 3: for the mic side of a hard circular thing that

1174
01:03:36,840 --> 01:03:37,480
Speaker 3: they've got there.

1175
01:03:38,080 --> 01:03:40,360
Speaker 2: I don't know what it is, so maybe but I

1176
01:03:40,400 --> 01:03:41,160
Speaker 2: might have picked this up.

1177
01:03:41,200 --> 01:03:42,959
Speaker 1: I don't know where I picked up. So they didn't

1178
01:03:42,960 --> 01:03:43,920
Speaker 1: wear red.

1179
01:03:43,680 --> 01:03:45,800
Speaker 2: Headcloth, No, not uniformly.

1180
01:03:46,520 --> 01:03:50,000
Speaker 1: Okay, No, why do people use the word turban in

1181
01:03:50,080 --> 01:03:51,640
Speaker 1: describing them? What are they talking about?

1182
01:03:52,040 --> 01:03:52,560
Speaker 2: Headdress?

1183
01:03:53,160 --> 01:03:56,120
Speaker 3: I think it's probably the closest reference that we would

1184
01:03:56,160 --> 01:03:56,640
Speaker 3: have to it.

1185
01:03:56,840 --> 01:03:58,440
Speaker 2: Headdress is probably more appropriate.

1186
01:03:58,560 --> 01:04:01,280
Speaker 1: Got it. So someone had his own kind of cloth

1187
01:04:01,440 --> 01:04:04,040
Speaker 1: wrapped around, they might have described it as a turban.

1188
01:04:04,200 --> 01:04:06,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, Abraham's got it on right there in the picture

1189
01:04:06,080 --> 01:04:06,680
Speaker 2: at the top there.

1190
01:04:06,960 --> 01:04:07,720
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1191
01:04:08,240 --> 01:04:11,360
Speaker 4: For whatever reason, it strikes me as something that comes

1192
01:04:11,400 --> 01:04:16,840
Speaker 4: from African culture, like it's a blending of traditions.

1193
01:04:17,040 --> 01:04:17,320
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1194
01:04:17,560 --> 01:04:21,760
Speaker 3: So there's one good way to introduce Abraham and kind

1195
01:04:21,800 --> 01:04:25,000
Speaker 3: of give you a picture of the Black seminoles. Is

1196
01:04:25,040 --> 01:04:28,080
Speaker 3: this wonderful folk tale. It's a Black seminal folk tale.

1197
01:04:28,760 --> 01:04:32,400
Speaker 3: And so in there's a writer named Zorol Nearhurston. She

1198
01:04:32,480 --> 01:04:35,040
Speaker 3: was part of the Harmon Harlem Renaissance, and she goes

1199
01:04:35,120 --> 01:04:39,080
Speaker 3: down to Florida as part of the Federal Works Project,

1200
01:04:39,120 --> 01:04:40,800
Speaker 3: you know where they paid writers part of the New

1201
01:04:40,840 --> 01:04:43,560
Speaker 3: Deal to go and write things. And she goes down

1202
01:04:43,600 --> 01:04:45,920
Speaker 3: to Florida and she hears this story about Uncle Monday,

1203
01:04:46,840 --> 01:04:50,520
Speaker 3: which I found. I have her original document, and the

1204
01:04:50,520 --> 01:04:53,600
Speaker 3: story of Uncle Monday is, in short, this is a

1205
01:04:53,640 --> 01:04:56,439
Speaker 3: story that locals are telling her one hundred years after

1206
01:04:56,480 --> 01:05:00,600
Speaker 3: it happened. Uncle Monday was a great African metaice man

1207
01:05:00,680 --> 01:05:05,800
Speaker 3: of the crocodile clan that practiced kinship with the fierce reptiles.

1208
01:05:06,240 --> 01:05:08,440
Speaker 3: Not long after he was stolen from his home and

1209
01:05:08,480 --> 01:05:12,400
Speaker 3: taken to America. He escaped from Georgia or South Carolina

1210
01:05:12,440 --> 01:05:14,840
Speaker 3: and made his way down into the Indian country which

1211
01:05:14,880 --> 01:05:18,360
Speaker 3: is now Florida. He and others settled among the seminoles.

1212
01:05:18,680 --> 01:05:22,120
Speaker 3: This is the eighteen thirties, the days of that haughty Asciola,

1213
01:05:22,160 --> 01:05:26,200
Speaker 3: that's a quote. And when the white men attacked, he

1214
01:05:26,280 --> 01:05:29,520
Speaker 3: led some of the Indian African forces in battle. They

1215
01:05:29,560 --> 01:05:32,720
Speaker 3: fought as fiercely as they could, but were defeated in

1216
01:05:32,760 --> 01:05:35,160
Speaker 3: the end or succumb by the end by greater forces

1217
01:05:35,160 --> 01:05:40,040
Speaker 3: and weaponry. They met Abraham and the survivors met near

1218
01:05:40,080 --> 01:05:43,160
Speaker 3: the Blue Sink Lake to debate and decide what to do.

1219
01:05:44,560 --> 01:05:47,160
Speaker 2: He told the people what the deities had told.

1220
01:05:47,000 --> 01:05:49,480
Speaker 3: Him in a vision or dream, that it would no

1221
01:05:49,560 --> 01:05:52,680
Speaker 3: longer it's no longer of any use to keep fighting. Still,

1222
01:05:52,920 --> 01:05:55,680
Speaker 3: the medicine man would not yield to death or enslavement

1223
01:05:55,760 --> 01:05:58,240
Speaker 3: at the hands of the invaders. He promised that he

1224
01:05:58,280 --> 01:06:02,120
Speaker 3: would change himself into an alligator and reunite with his

1225
01:06:02,160 --> 01:06:05,240
Speaker 3: reptilian kin in the Blue Sink Lake until the trouble

1226
01:06:05,320 --> 01:06:08,480
Speaker 3: was over. And so there is a ceremony on the

1227
01:06:08,520 --> 01:06:11,280
Speaker 3: banks of the Blue Sink, where the people drum African

1228
01:06:11,360 --> 01:06:15,280
Speaker 3: and Indian beats on their instruments. As Uncle Monday danced,

1229
01:06:15,320 --> 01:06:19,439
Speaker 3: he began to shift in form. His skin grew rough,

1230
01:06:19,680 --> 01:06:23,400
Speaker 3: his face grew long and very terrible, and he cry,

1231
01:06:23,520 --> 01:06:27,240
Speaker 3: his voice became like thunder, and in response, a thousand

1232
01:06:27,280 --> 01:06:30,720
Speaker 3: alligators bellow and come out of the Blue Sink. And

1233
01:06:30,960 --> 01:06:33,320
Speaker 3: he is now the largest of the reptiles. And he

1234
01:06:33,440 --> 01:06:37,920
Speaker 3: strodes regally into the Blue Sink, and they disappear altogether,

1235
01:06:38,080 --> 01:06:43,200
Speaker 3: bellowing into the lake. It was said that for many years.

1236
01:06:43,360 --> 01:06:45,320
Speaker 3: It was said that he remained in the Blue Sink

1237
01:06:45,400 --> 01:06:48,320
Speaker 3: for many years, and that every so often he would

1238
01:06:48,400 --> 01:06:52,400
Speaker 3: transform back into a man and roam the land and cast.

1239
01:06:52,200 --> 01:06:58,000
Speaker 2: His spells on the people. So what does this story

1240
01:06:58,080 --> 01:06:59,800
Speaker 2: tell you? What is it preserve?

1241
01:07:01,040 --> 01:07:05,080
Speaker 3: Going back to your point about bringing African traditions in

1242
01:07:05,160 --> 01:07:08,920
Speaker 3: and melding them with indigenous traditions. Yeah, you know in

1243
01:07:09,040 --> 01:07:12,200
Speaker 3: Zambia they still have a crocodile clan in northern Zambia

1244
01:07:12,280 --> 01:07:15,800
Speaker 3: that may be too far east for the transatlantic slave trade,

1245
01:07:15,800 --> 01:07:20,800
Speaker 3: but a democratic Republic of Congo, Republic of Congo, Angola,

1246
01:07:20,960 --> 01:07:24,600
Speaker 3: central West Africa, the Congo River full of crocodiles. You

1247
01:07:24,640 --> 01:07:29,000
Speaker 3: have crocodile veneration. You have societies there that are matrilineal,

1248
01:07:29,760 --> 01:07:34,160
Speaker 3: like the seminoles, So the royal line descends from uncle

1249
01:07:34,160 --> 01:07:38,280
Speaker 3: to nephew, not from father to son. You have clans,

1250
01:07:39,360 --> 01:07:44,040
Speaker 3: you have a spiritual relationship with the land. And what

1251
01:07:44,200 --> 01:07:44,840
Speaker 3: is this story?

1252
01:07:44,880 --> 01:07:45,080
Speaker 1: Now?

1253
01:07:45,080 --> 01:07:48,040
Speaker 3: You liberate yourself and you come down and you find

1254
01:07:48,080 --> 01:07:50,640
Speaker 3: tribes that are matrilineal.

1255
01:07:50,760 --> 01:07:52,480
Speaker 2: That have a spiritual relationship with.

1256
01:07:52,480 --> 01:07:58,200
Speaker 3: The land, and there are alligators there, and so how

1257
01:07:58,240 --> 01:08:01,440
Speaker 3: do you survive? You trans form yourself. You're from the

1258
01:08:01,520 --> 01:08:05,760
Speaker 3: crocodile clan. You transform yourself into an alligator. I think

1259
01:08:05,800 --> 01:08:09,280
Speaker 3: that's the and it's a magical act. There's something called

1260
01:08:10,720 --> 01:08:14,040
Speaker 3: African semino Ethnogenesis. There's a paper by this guy, Anthony

1261
01:08:14,080 --> 01:08:19,600
Speaker 3: Dixon ethno Ethnic Genesis Birth, and it's about how do

1262
01:08:19,680 --> 01:08:23,439
Speaker 3: you rebuild culture. You're stitching together your culture from various

1263
01:08:23,479 --> 01:08:29,559
Speaker 3: African traditions that are inherited by your parents, grandparents, and

1264
01:08:29,680 --> 01:08:32,439
Speaker 3: you want to meld them with native traditions. And that's

1265
01:08:32,439 --> 01:08:36,440
Speaker 3: what you're doing and and you're it's a profoundly creative.

1266
01:08:36,680 --> 01:08:39,080
Speaker 3: I mean, it's a magical thing to do that. That's

1267
01:08:39,120 --> 01:08:44,440
Speaker 3: how you're going to survive. I think that's a beautiful

1268
01:08:44,760 --> 01:08:48,280
Speaker 3: summary of what they did. And and it was all

1269
01:08:48,280 --> 01:08:50,120
Speaker 3: about this cultural melding.

1270
01:08:50,439 --> 01:08:53,040
Speaker 1: What a do you to have on the podcast? Mans

1271
01:08:53,320 --> 01:08:58,000
Speaker 1: like I mean, I'm sorry, not me. Yes, you story

1272
01:08:58,560 --> 01:08:58,920
Speaker 1: the guy.

1273
01:08:59,040 --> 01:09:00,599
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's the guy, but you too.

1274
01:09:01,000 --> 01:09:03,519
Speaker 1: You're here, we invited you on, We came and found you.

1275
01:09:03,680 --> 01:09:05,960
Speaker 2: Abrahead would have been better. No, no, no, I'm.

1276
01:09:05,800 --> 01:09:08,120
Speaker 1: Not talking about even him. I'm talking about the dude.

1277
01:09:08,000 --> 01:09:10,160
Speaker 2: Uncle Uncle Monday.

1278
01:09:10,439 --> 01:09:14,880
Speaker 1: Be like picture, Okay, you're in Africa. You probably get

1279
01:09:14,920 --> 01:09:18,120
Speaker 1: captured by African slave traders, you get sold to whites.

1280
01:09:19,439 --> 01:09:24,000
Speaker 1: They send you to North America. They send you to

1281
01:09:24,040 --> 01:09:27,240
Speaker 1: what we become the United States. You get bought by

1282
01:09:27,280 --> 01:09:33,519
Speaker 1: another white guy, you get turned to plantation work. You escape, Yes,

1283
01:09:33,840 --> 01:09:39,120
Speaker 1: you go south, you meet up with Indian tribes. Then

1284
01:09:39,160 --> 01:09:44,639
Speaker 1: you turn around and start fighting the army of the people. Yes,

1285
01:09:46,240 --> 01:09:47,360
Speaker 1: that's a hell of a journey.

1286
01:09:47,439 --> 01:09:49,759
Speaker 2: What a story, What a story.

1287
01:09:50,000 --> 01:09:52,200
Speaker 1: And in meanwhile, people are being born in the United

1288
01:09:52,240 --> 01:09:54,840
Speaker 1: States and not going, not strand more than forty miles.

1289
01:09:54,880 --> 01:09:56,640
Speaker 1: A lot of people you're born, you know, stry more

1290
01:09:56,640 --> 01:09:58,639
Speaker 1: than forty miles from where you're born, and you die

1291
01:09:59,000 --> 01:10:00,160
Speaker 1: with a hole in your hand.

1292
01:10:00,400 --> 01:10:02,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's right.

1293
01:10:02,360 --> 01:10:05,480
Speaker 3: There is an oral history that puts one of Abraham's

1294
01:10:05,520 --> 01:10:10,960
Speaker 3: fighters as coming from Africa. The Transatlantic straight Tit is

1295
01:10:11,600 --> 01:10:15,920
Speaker 3: officially banned in eighteen oh eight, but there is a

1296
01:10:15,960 --> 01:10:19,880
Speaker 3: record of this guy, and he remembers what it was

1297
01:10:20,000 --> 01:10:21,040
Speaker 3: like to be in Africa.

1298
01:10:21,400 --> 01:10:29,240
Speaker 1: Oh man, So we set up the dispersal of people

1299
01:10:29,240 --> 01:10:34,720
Speaker 1: out of Alabama and Georgia, the Creeks people being displaced,

1300
01:10:34,920 --> 01:10:40,880
Speaker 1: pushed into Florida. The United States starts eyeballing that landscape.

1301
01:10:40,880 --> 01:10:44,960
Speaker 1: Settlers are moving in. President Jackson's like, these guys gotta go.

1302
01:10:45,800 --> 01:10:51,439
Speaker 1: I'll send them out to Oklahoma. They're not cooperating. They

1303
01:10:51,520 --> 01:10:54,040
Speaker 1: send in an army under the command of this dude Dad,

1304
01:10:54,479 --> 01:10:57,560
Speaker 1: and Dade's gonna go up there and straighten them all out.

1305
01:10:57,760 --> 01:10:59,880
Speaker 1: Him and a hundred guys are going to straighten them

1306
01:10:59,880 --> 01:11:00,640
Speaker 1: all out.

1307
01:11:01,000 --> 01:11:03,960
Speaker 2: Nicely, set up, nicely, set up.

1308
01:11:04,240 --> 01:11:04,439
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1309
01:11:04,479 --> 01:11:09,160
Speaker 2: So after Charlie A. Mathla is killed, they send reinforcements.

1310
01:11:09,920 --> 01:11:13,080
Speaker 2: We need more troops. The problem is the troops are split.

1311
01:11:13,720 --> 01:11:16,439
Speaker 3: So you have Duncan Clinch with the main forest and

1312
01:11:16,479 --> 01:11:19,559
Speaker 3: it's to the north side of the Indian Reservation, and

1313
01:11:19,600 --> 01:11:22,320
Speaker 3: then you have troops gathering on the Gulf coast in

1314
01:11:22,360 --> 01:11:25,400
Speaker 3: what is Tampa Bay, that's Fort Brook and four companies,

1315
01:11:25,439 --> 01:11:28,680
Speaker 3: the full companies fifty men. So they send two hundred

1316
01:11:28,920 --> 01:11:31,760
Speaker 3: men down, not all at once, four companies down to

1317
01:11:31,840 --> 01:11:33,719
Speaker 3: back up the troops they have there. And the idea

1318
01:11:33,840 --> 01:11:36,600
Speaker 3: is they're going to march through the Indian Reservation and

1319
01:11:36,640 --> 01:11:38,559
Speaker 3: they're going to meet up with Clinch and they're going

1320
01:11:38,600 --> 01:11:42,559
Speaker 3: to attack. That's the plan. And Date is one of

1321
01:11:42,600 --> 01:11:44,360
Speaker 3: those troops coming over, got it.

1322
01:11:44,400 --> 01:11:47,479
Speaker 1: God, So the intention was never that. The intention was

1323
01:11:47,520 --> 01:11:49,400
Speaker 1: never that his one hundred guys are going to pull

1324
01:11:49,400 --> 01:11:51,240
Speaker 1: this off. It's all part of bringing a bunch of

1325
01:11:51,280 --> 01:11:51,880
Speaker 1: guys together.

1326
01:11:52,160 --> 01:11:53,959
Speaker 2: It's it's more interesting.

1327
01:11:54,320 --> 01:11:57,840
Speaker 3: It's so you're What happens is they're planning for a

1328
01:11:57,880 --> 01:12:01,160
Speaker 3: fight on the on December thirty first. They're waiting for

1329
01:12:01,240 --> 01:12:03,840
Speaker 3: the rest of the two hundred troops. They only have

1330
01:12:04,120 --> 01:12:06,479
Speaker 3: I think two of the four boats, two of the

1331
01:12:06,479 --> 01:12:09,519
Speaker 3: four companies are there, and you don't have many people

1332
01:12:09,560 --> 01:12:12,880
Speaker 3: in that garrison in Tampa Bay. So you're faced with

1333
01:12:12,920 --> 01:12:15,439
Speaker 3: a choice. You can march up the four King Road.

1334
01:12:15,479 --> 01:12:17,599
Speaker 3: Now that's right in the middle of the reservation. It's

1335
01:12:17,640 --> 01:12:19,639
Speaker 3: one hundred mile road, and you're going to go right

1336
01:12:19,720 --> 01:12:23,920
Speaker 3: through enemy territory. Do you want to do that with

1337
01:12:23,960 --> 01:12:25,760
Speaker 3: one hundred men? Do you want to wait for the

1338
01:12:25,800 --> 01:12:28,280
Speaker 3: other hundred men to come? But we could miss the

1339
01:12:29,040 --> 01:12:33,679
Speaker 3: deadline for the fight December thirty first. So Dade, bravely

1340
01:12:33,760 --> 01:12:36,400
Speaker 3: or foolishly, depending on how you look at it, he said,

1341
01:12:36,520 --> 01:12:37,080
Speaker 3: I got this.

1342
01:12:37,960 --> 01:12:41,400
Speaker 2: I'll march up, no problem. I'll go right through the reservation.

1343
01:12:41,760 --> 01:12:45,040
Speaker 3: All I need is one hundred people, and there are

1344
01:12:45,120 --> 01:12:49,559
Speaker 3: records of there are a few native families. I think

1345
01:12:49,560 --> 01:12:52,920
Speaker 3: there's three hundred people with one hundred warriors are who

1346
01:12:52,920 --> 01:12:55,720
Speaker 3: have chosen to immigrate and haven't changed their mind. Who

1347
01:12:55,760 --> 01:12:58,120
Speaker 3: are at Tampa Bay across the Hillsboro River waiting for

1348
01:12:58,160 --> 01:13:00,680
Speaker 3: ships to take them up to New Orleans and then

1349
01:13:00,720 --> 01:13:03,880
Speaker 3: to Indian Territory what becomes Oklahoma. And they're sure he's

1350
01:13:03,920 --> 01:13:07,160
Speaker 3: going to die, and they say and they say goodbye

1351
01:13:07,160 --> 01:13:09,959
Speaker 3: to him. I think it's December twenty third, and he's

1352
01:13:10,000 --> 01:13:12,040
Speaker 3: sure that they would never see him again.

1353
01:13:12,400 --> 01:13:13,679
Speaker 1: Huh.

1354
01:13:14,160 --> 01:13:17,120
Speaker 3: There's another guy there, Belton, and he says, I think

1355
01:13:17,160 --> 01:13:20,639
Speaker 3: you're crazy. I would rather resign if I were ordered

1356
01:13:20,840 --> 01:13:24,439
Speaker 3: to march up that road. There are people later who said, listen,

1357
01:13:24,439 --> 01:13:27,040
Speaker 3: why did you send troops down the Gulf Coast. You

1358
01:13:27,080 --> 01:13:29,559
Speaker 3: should have sent them down the Atlantic and you can

1359
01:13:29,600 --> 01:13:32,080
Speaker 3: go right down into Jacksonville and then they already would

1360
01:13:32,080 --> 01:13:32,439
Speaker 3: have met up.

1361
01:13:32,439 --> 01:13:33,479
Speaker 2: So this is a bone of contention.

1362
01:13:33,560 --> 01:13:36,160
Speaker 3: Why were troops sent to Tampa Because the only way

1363
01:13:36,160 --> 01:13:38,120
Speaker 3: to get to Clinch is to go right through the reservation.

1364
01:13:39,680 --> 01:13:43,479
Speaker 2: So they start this march through the reservation.

1365
01:13:44,160 --> 01:13:49,479
Speaker 3: And it's eerie, and their camps are harassed at night

1366
01:13:50,280 --> 01:13:53,840
Speaker 3: by seminoles, by scouts who are following them by gunfire.

1367
01:13:55,200 --> 01:13:58,519
Speaker 3: And you know, I think it's the fifth night or

1368
01:13:58,520 --> 01:14:02,519
Speaker 3: the fourth night. Dad has a bad dream he fought

1369
01:14:02,520 --> 01:14:05,559
Speaker 3: in the War of eighteen twelve, and he says, my

1370
01:14:05,640 --> 01:14:09,559
Speaker 3: fallen comrades came to me in my dream. This is

1371
01:14:09,720 --> 01:14:14,760
Speaker 3: apparently from a newspaper several years later, and they said

1372
01:14:14,760 --> 01:14:17,559
Speaker 3: their names. It's the most bizarre dream I've ever had

1373
01:14:17,880 --> 01:14:18,479
Speaker 3: in my life.

1374
01:14:19,120 --> 01:14:20,519
Speaker 2: It's strange.

1375
01:14:20,640 --> 01:14:24,160
Speaker 3: And they walk. They've gone sixty miles of the one hundred.

1376
01:14:24,560 --> 01:14:28,200
Speaker 3: They're nearing a place called the Wahoo Swamp, which is

1377
01:14:28,240 --> 01:14:31,400
Speaker 3: a perfect place to retreat to. And they're in between

1378
01:14:31,479 --> 01:14:36,240
Speaker 3: Abraham's town where he lived with about one hundred, maybe

1379
01:14:36,560 --> 01:14:38,760
Speaker 3: as many as one hundred and sixty black seminoles, and

1380
01:14:38,840 --> 01:14:44,439
Speaker 3: this swamp and his forces and Miconopie's and a chief

1381
01:14:44,520 --> 01:14:49,000
Speaker 3: named Alligator and Jumper is there set up an ambush,

1382
01:14:49,439 --> 01:14:51,760
Speaker 3: and there's a lake on the right side of the road,

1383
01:14:52,040 --> 01:14:54,639
Speaker 3: and their idea is we're going to pin them against

1384
01:14:54,640 --> 01:14:58,920
Speaker 3: the lake. They form a semicircle and Dad walks into

1385
01:14:58,960 --> 01:15:03,880
Speaker 3: this ambush and Mikonopie calls out his name or yells

1386
01:15:04,800 --> 01:15:06,639
Speaker 3: and shoots him in the.

1387
01:15:06,600 --> 01:15:08,280
Speaker 1: Neck like the first guy.

1388
01:15:08,640 --> 01:15:12,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, shoots him in the neck, and apparently he was

1389
01:15:12,439 --> 01:15:17,560
Speaker 3: eating a hard attack biscuit, and he yells, my God,

1390
01:15:17,960 --> 01:15:21,080
Speaker 3: and he falls off the horse and he dies, and

1391
01:15:21,120 --> 01:15:24,880
Speaker 3: then the first volley, half of the half of the

1392
01:15:24,880 --> 01:15:27,800
Speaker 3: command is falls to the ground. Half the command dies

1393
01:15:27,800 --> 01:15:33,160
Speaker 3: in the first volley. One hundred and five ultimately are

1394
01:15:33,600 --> 01:15:37,280
Speaker 3: killed that day. It's the largest loss of life on

1395
01:15:37,320 --> 01:15:42,920
Speaker 3: the US side in any fight with Native forces until Custer.

1396
01:15:45,160 --> 01:15:46,320
Speaker 2: The fight goes on all day.

1397
01:15:47,479 --> 01:15:51,040
Speaker 3: The survivors of the initial volley kind of build a

1398
01:15:51,040 --> 01:15:55,000
Speaker 3: triangular log breastwork, a couple of logs that they cut

1399
01:15:55,040 --> 01:15:57,360
Speaker 3: down and they stack them three logs high or it's

1400
01:15:57,360 --> 01:15:59,440
Speaker 3: two logs high, and they try to hide behind.

1401
01:15:59,200 --> 01:15:59,880
Speaker 2: It for some cover.

1402
01:16:00,920 --> 01:16:04,040
Speaker 3: The seminal forces are very patient. There is a little

1403
01:16:04,040 --> 01:16:07,880
Speaker 3: hand to hand fighting, but generally they're very patient. They're

1404
01:16:07,920 --> 01:16:11,719
Speaker 3: firing from concealed positions and they're not risking their lives.

1405
01:16:11,800 --> 01:16:15,000
Speaker 3: They lose three people, you know, they the one hundred

1406
01:16:15,040 --> 01:16:16,320
Speaker 3: and five US forces are killed.

1407
01:16:16,320 --> 01:16:20,360
Speaker 2: They lose three god man, Yeah.

1408
01:16:19,400 --> 01:16:23,439
Speaker 3: And you know, uh they finished them off in a

1409
01:16:23,560 --> 01:16:27,439
Speaker 3: sort of a brutal way with a knife work.

1410
01:16:27,479 --> 01:16:32,679
Speaker 2: And there's there's some screaming, and.

1411
01:16:32,680 --> 01:16:35,559
Speaker 3: Uh it's you know, this is fills the newspaper as

1412
01:16:35,600 --> 01:16:39,519
Speaker 3: a as a massacre. And and that night those forces

1413
01:16:39,520 --> 01:16:41,400
Speaker 3: in Abraham and Assio the meet in the in the

1414
01:16:41,439 --> 01:16:45,439
Speaker 3: Wahu swamp and they drink all night and celebrate and party.

1415
01:16:47,040 --> 01:16:49,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, because he's coming back from killing time. Yeah.

1416
01:16:49,479 --> 01:16:53,360
Speaker 2: They both missions were successful. Yeah.

1417
01:16:53,880 --> 01:16:55,639
Speaker 1: The thing that confused me in your book is what

1418
01:16:55,680 --> 01:16:59,280
Speaker 1: was up with the guys that they when they when

1419
01:16:59,280 --> 01:17:02,639
Speaker 1: they finally come to bury the bodies, they're not even

1420
01:17:02,760 --> 01:17:03,559
Speaker 1: get there for a while.

1421
01:17:03,680 --> 01:17:04,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, fifty four days.

1422
01:17:05,439 --> 01:17:08,360
Speaker 1: What was up with the guys in the little in

1423
01:17:08,400 --> 01:17:11,120
Speaker 1: the little fort they built, that's the breastwork. Yeah, what

1424
01:17:11,160 --> 01:17:12,879
Speaker 1: was up with the guys in the breastwork? The bodies

1425
01:17:12,880 --> 01:17:13,519
Speaker 1: in the breastwork?

1426
01:17:13,800 --> 01:17:17,639
Speaker 3: Oh goodness. So there's a description. There's a US soldier

1427
01:17:17,680 --> 01:17:20,479
Speaker 3: he says it looked like the bodies looked like they

1428
01:17:20,479 --> 01:17:23,840
Speaker 3: were toy soldiers arranged by a child in his play.

1429
01:17:24,000 --> 01:17:25,559
Speaker 1: Yeah. I didn't understand what that meant. And he said

1430
01:17:25,560 --> 01:17:26,799
Speaker 1: like some about right angles.

1431
01:17:27,640 --> 01:17:30,920
Speaker 3: So you think, imagine this triangular breastwork of logs, and

1432
01:17:30,960 --> 01:17:34,440
Speaker 3: you've got these bodies that are in various stages of decomposition.

1433
01:17:34,960 --> 01:17:39,160
Speaker 3: I think he's referring to the odd ways that the

1434
01:17:39,200 --> 01:17:40,320
Speaker 3: bodies were positioned.

1435
01:17:40,600 --> 01:17:42,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, the right angle. He said something like that, they're

1436
01:17:42,720 --> 01:17:44,360
Speaker 1: at right angles. I couldn't tell what the hell he

1437
01:17:44,400 --> 01:17:46,679
Speaker 1: meant by that. I mean it didn't sound it didn't

1438
01:17:46,720 --> 01:17:47,160
Speaker 1: look great.

1439
01:17:47,280 --> 01:17:52,479
Speaker 3: I think he's saying it was weird, like it was

1440
01:17:52,520 --> 01:17:56,640
Speaker 3: not natural. Got it, got it, you know.

1441
01:17:56,680 --> 01:17:57,360
Speaker 1: And and.

1442
01:17:58,720 --> 01:18:03,160
Speaker 3: The jaws have dropped because the muscles are deteriorated and

1443
01:18:03,200 --> 01:18:05,479
Speaker 3: the fingers are kind of clawed up like this.

1444
01:18:06,520 --> 01:18:08,719
Speaker 2: And some say they were scalped.

1445
01:18:08,720 --> 01:18:12,360
Speaker 3: Some say they weren't the most reliable what I thought

1446
01:18:12,400 --> 01:18:15,760
Speaker 3: that one person says there's too much deterioration to know

1447
01:18:15,800 --> 01:18:18,920
Speaker 3: if they were scalped, which seems probable.

1448
01:18:19,880 --> 01:18:21,759
Speaker 2: And they didn't rob them.

1449
01:18:22,040 --> 01:18:24,559
Speaker 3: And I think they were sending a message, you know,

1450
01:18:24,600 --> 01:18:29,000
Speaker 3: before before day before that ambush, they set out a

1451
01:18:29,040 --> 01:18:31,120
Speaker 3: cow in the road, a slaughtered cow in the road,

1452
01:18:32,280 --> 01:18:34,640
Speaker 3: and it's split wide open in the middle of the road.

1453
01:18:35,120 --> 01:18:38,760
Speaker 2: It's a warning sign, don't come in here. We don't

1454
01:18:38,800 --> 01:18:42,000
Speaker 2: want to do this. And even Mikonopi.

1455
01:18:41,520 --> 01:18:44,000
Speaker 3: Before he shoots him, there's there's evidence that he was

1456
01:18:44,080 --> 01:18:48,559
Speaker 3: hesitant and he knows Dade. Dade has been there before.

1457
01:18:48,640 --> 01:18:55,360
Speaker 3: Dade has attacked native villages before. Okay, we warned you.

1458
01:18:55,400 --> 01:18:57,880
Speaker 1: Now he's the damn county name Dad County. Now we

1459
01:18:57,920 --> 01:19:01,360
Speaker 1: got in Miami, right, that's right, Dade County County. Yeah,

1460
01:19:01,400 --> 01:19:03,679
Speaker 1: that's him, that's Day and you got.

1461
01:19:03,640 --> 01:19:05,519
Speaker 4: Custer County, is there.

1462
01:19:07,960 --> 01:19:10,439
Speaker 3: I heard that that there's new research that says it

1463
01:19:10,479 --> 01:19:14,080
Speaker 3: wasn't exactly a last stand. Do you know anything about that?

1464
01:19:13,640 --> 01:19:16,400
Speaker 3: That the fighting was more spread out, It wasn't in

1465
01:19:16,439 --> 01:19:17,040
Speaker 3: one location.

1466
01:19:17,240 --> 01:19:21,639
Speaker 1: Well, I wouldn't say now, but there was a Custer

1467
01:19:21,880 --> 01:19:28,120
Speaker 1: wasn't the last that his little hill area wasn't the

1468
01:19:28,200 --> 01:19:31,040
Speaker 1: last holdouts? Okay, yeah, it was, you know, it was

1469
01:19:32,240 --> 01:19:34,479
Speaker 1: earlier in the fight. It wasn't you know, he wasn't

1470
01:19:34,479 --> 01:19:41,840
Speaker 1: the last guy standing. Yeah, in the there was nothing

1471
01:19:41,880 --> 01:19:47,200
Speaker 1: that remarkable about his positioning, and it wasn't It didn't

1472
01:19:47,240 --> 01:19:49,439
Speaker 1: build up to that moment, right, It was just part

1473
01:19:49,479 --> 01:19:52,559
Speaker 1: of a broad part of a broader fight and was

1474
01:19:52,680 --> 01:19:56,920
Speaker 1: rather probably to the participants, was like an unnoteworthy little spectacle.

1475
01:19:57,360 --> 01:19:59,960
Speaker 2: Uh, okay, that makes sense.

1476
01:20:00,400 --> 01:20:06,479
Speaker 4: Now that we're in the fighting. The parallels between this

1477
01:20:06,680 --> 01:20:12,920
Speaker 4: conflict and Vietnam are just almost too much to get into,

1478
01:20:13,000 --> 01:20:17,080
Speaker 4: but on a very super official level, between the tactics

1479
01:20:17,840 --> 01:20:22,040
Speaker 4: and the strategy, and then the duration of the conflict

1480
01:20:22,080 --> 01:20:24,040
Speaker 4: and the cost of the conflict.

1481
01:20:23,600 --> 01:20:27,400
Speaker 3: Like yeah, and a feeling from the soldiers that they

1482
01:20:27,439 --> 01:20:30,479
Speaker 3: were maybe betrayed by Washington or not quite treat you know,

1483
01:20:31,680 --> 01:20:35,560
Speaker 3: this is what are we doing here? So if you

1484
01:20:35,600 --> 01:20:39,439
Speaker 3: look at there's some military organizations of veteran organizations in

1485
01:20:39,479 --> 01:20:42,840
Speaker 3: Florida and organizations that study the seminal war. And a

1486
01:20:42,840 --> 01:20:45,400
Speaker 3: lot of the guys that were interested in it before

1487
01:20:45,520 --> 01:20:49,960
Speaker 3: were Vietnam vets and then they were Iraq and Afghanistan vets.

1488
01:20:50,000 --> 01:20:53,600
Speaker 2: Wow huh. And I think they they see them, you know,

1489
01:20:54,160 --> 01:20:56,000
Speaker 2: they see the story as very similar.

1490
01:20:56,240 --> 01:21:03,880
Speaker 1: Yeah. So after this Daid fight, there aren't big there

1491
01:21:03,920 --> 01:21:10,439
Speaker 1: aren't big, definitive battles, to the point where I know

1492
01:21:10,520 --> 01:21:15,479
Speaker 1: that Clay had mentioned this that if you start walking

1493
01:21:15,560 --> 01:21:18,800
Speaker 1: us through the conflict, the conflict never formally ended.

1494
01:21:19,520 --> 01:21:24,599
Speaker 3: No, no, the so the survivors as many as six

1495
01:21:24,800 --> 01:21:31,600
Speaker 3: hundred in excuse me, in eighteen forty two, when the

1496
01:21:31,680 --> 01:21:34,479
Speaker 3: US sort of unilaterally withdraws.

1497
01:21:34,640 --> 01:21:35,719
Speaker 2: They never signed anything.

1498
01:21:36,360 --> 01:21:39,400
Speaker 3: The US says, oh, it's kind of over, and you know,

1499
01:21:39,439 --> 01:21:44,519
Speaker 3: we won mostly and the few survivors it's only three hundred,

1500
01:21:44,560 --> 01:21:45,320
Speaker 3: it's probably double that.

1501
01:21:46,479 --> 01:21:47,720
Speaker 2: You know, we should be nice to them.

1502
01:21:47,760 --> 01:21:51,559
Speaker 3: It's because it's just so few, and it's really a

1503
01:21:51,600 --> 01:21:55,800
Speaker 3: noble gesture of us to be to restrain ourselves and

1504
01:21:55,920 --> 01:21:59,800
Speaker 3: unilaterally withdraw. But that's why they call that's why they

1505
01:21:59,840 --> 01:22:04,400
Speaker 3: call them the unconquered people, because there never is a capitulation.

1506
01:22:04,600 --> 01:22:07,519
Speaker 3: Sam Jones, who is the Mikazoki chief who really led it,

1507
01:22:07,560 --> 01:22:10,719
Speaker 3: and there he's really the big hero of the war,

1508
01:22:12,000 --> 01:22:16,960
Speaker 3: for the for the survivors, for those who stayed in Florida,

1509
01:22:17,840 --> 01:22:22,240
Speaker 3: and Asciola is kind of his one of his warriors.

1510
01:22:22,960 --> 01:22:23,160
Speaker 1: You know.

1511
01:22:23,240 --> 01:22:29,400
Speaker 2: He he outwitted them, he outlasted them, and he did

1512
01:22:29,400 --> 01:22:33,280
Speaker 2: it by setting up these villages on these little islands,

1513
01:22:33,280 --> 01:22:37,240
Speaker 2: these hammocks in the Everglades, connected by canoes, and when

1514
01:22:37,280 --> 01:22:39,360
Speaker 2: the army came, he would just go to the next one.

1515
01:22:40,240 --> 01:22:44,280
Speaker 3: And so he had this network of refuges and just

1516
01:22:44,360 --> 01:22:46,200
Speaker 3: let the land. Let the land kill them. You know,

1517
01:22:46,200 --> 01:22:48,679
Speaker 3: there's a third conflict, there's a third seminal war where

1518
01:22:48,680 --> 01:22:53,400
Speaker 3: they try again and I think fifty five soldiers die

1519
01:22:53,560 --> 01:22:54,920
Speaker 3: and it's a three year war.

1520
01:22:56,160 --> 01:22:58,839
Speaker 2: So like you, what is that? How do you describe

1521
01:22:58,880 --> 01:23:05,759
Speaker 2: that you're wandering around and not fighting people? Yeah, yeah,

1522
01:23:05,800 --> 01:23:08,639
Speaker 2: there are some bigger battles, but the day the dade

1523
01:23:08,640 --> 01:23:12,200
Speaker 2: mask of the day defeat, that's the largest death count.

1524
01:23:12,640 --> 01:23:15,880
Speaker 1: Why do they break the wars into the why do

1525
01:23:15,960 --> 01:23:20,000
Speaker 1: they break it into the first Seminal War, the Second

1526
01:23:20,080 --> 01:23:22,840
Speaker 1: Seminal War, which we've been mostly discussing, like this Dade

1527
01:23:22,920 --> 01:23:26,080
Speaker 1: fight kicks off the Second Seminal War, Yes, and then

1528
01:23:26,320 --> 01:23:29,639
Speaker 1: the third Seminole War. Why because they're not as clean

1529
01:23:29,640 --> 01:23:31,760
Speaker 1: as like World War one, World War two?

1530
01:23:32,439 --> 01:23:36,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, the Seminar War three, you know, the Seminoal Trap

1531
01:23:36,120 --> 01:23:38,519
Speaker 2: of Florida would agree with you so well.

1532
01:23:38,560 --> 01:23:41,120
Speaker 1: They would agree that this whole breaking it up. It's

1533
01:23:41,120 --> 01:23:43,920
Speaker 1: like these aren't different things. It's all the continuation of

1534
01:23:43,960 --> 01:23:46,360
Speaker 1: the same thing. They object to it, Okay, I don't know.

1535
01:23:46,479 --> 01:23:49,160
Speaker 3: If you go on their website, they'll say we objected this.

1536
01:23:49,320 --> 01:23:51,760
Speaker 3: We call it, we call it the Long War. They

1537
01:23:51,760 --> 01:23:55,360
Speaker 3: call it the Long War, and they frame it as

1538
01:23:55,400 --> 01:23:59,519
Speaker 3: a you know, continuing colonial aggression trying to get them

1539
01:23:59,560 --> 01:24:00,960
Speaker 3: off the land, which it was.

1540
01:24:01,400 --> 01:24:06,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, but just for people's understanding, Yeah, when they hear

1541
01:24:06,280 --> 01:24:09,759
Speaker 1: this first second third, can you tell can you you explain

1542
01:24:09,720 --> 01:24:11,080
Speaker 1: a little bout what that means? Then I want to

1543
01:24:11,080 --> 01:24:15,800
Speaker 1: get into like Osciola's capture and how that fits into

1544
01:24:15,800 --> 01:24:17,960
Speaker 1: this chronology of these wars. But first of what does

1545
01:24:18,000 --> 01:24:22,280
Speaker 1: it mean when someone says first, second, third, absolutely. So.

1546
01:24:22,760 --> 01:24:26,040
Speaker 3: The formal dates are eighteen seventeen, eighteen eighteen, that's the

1547
01:24:26,040 --> 01:24:29,080
Speaker 3: first Seminal War. And that's when you have Andrew Jackson

1548
01:24:29,520 --> 01:24:33,200
Speaker 3: coming down into Spanish Florida. There's a few fights, he

1549
01:24:33,280 --> 01:24:38,120
Speaker 3: burns some villages, it's nothing crazy, and then he retreats,

1550
01:24:38,120 --> 01:24:40,960
Speaker 3: and it's really what he's doing there. He's pressuring Spain

1551
01:24:41,040 --> 01:24:44,000
Speaker 3: to relinquish the territory to the United States. It's like, look,

1552
01:24:44,040 --> 01:24:45,920
Speaker 3: I had to go and do this police action. You've

1553
01:24:45,960 --> 01:24:49,360
Speaker 3: got trouble in your borders. You can't control it. And

1554
01:24:49,400 --> 01:24:56,760
Speaker 3: then he retreats, claiming victory. The Second Seminal War is

1555
01:24:57,400 --> 01:25:00,160
Speaker 3: most as you say, it's the focus of this. It's

1556
01:25:00,200 --> 01:25:02,559
Speaker 3: eighteen thirty five, eighteen forty two.

1557
01:25:03,080 --> 01:25:04,920
Speaker 1: What's what happens in eighteen forty two.

1558
01:25:05,640 --> 01:25:08,400
Speaker 3: That's when the US I think it's Tyler President Tyler.

1559
01:25:08,479 --> 01:25:12,160
Speaker 3: He declares we're done. He says, the war is over.

1560
01:25:12,360 --> 01:25:14,000
Speaker 3: We're not We're not going to fight anymore.

1561
01:25:14,200 --> 01:25:14,640
Speaker 1: Got it?

1562
01:25:14,880 --> 01:25:17,160
Speaker 2: He claims victory and withdraws the truth.

1563
01:25:17,240 --> 01:25:19,880
Speaker 1: This is the Tippy Canoe and Tyler too? Is that

1564
01:25:19,960 --> 01:25:20,519
Speaker 1: the guy?

1565
01:25:20,920 --> 01:25:23,080
Speaker 2: Is that him? I don't know anything about Tyler.

1566
01:25:23,320 --> 01:25:26,280
Speaker 1: I just remember his name. You're probably right, Tippy Canoe

1567
01:25:26,280 --> 01:25:27,000
Speaker 1: and Tyler too.

1568
01:25:27,960 --> 01:25:30,519
Speaker 2: I'm sure you're right. Yeah, yeah, I'm not kind of

1569
01:25:30,520 --> 01:25:32,000
Speaker 2: addicted Harrison.

1570
01:25:33,040 --> 01:25:34,519
Speaker 1: You know it'll be your next book.

1571
01:25:34,600 --> 01:25:36,120
Speaker 2: Okay, good, I'll look into it.

1572
01:25:36,520 --> 01:25:39,840
Speaker 3: And then and then and then the third effort is

1573
01:25:40,000 --> 01:25:42,519
Speaker 3: eighteen fifty five to eighteen fifty eight, so.

1574
01:25:42,520 --> 01:25:46,240
Speaker 1: Thirteen years goes by. Yeah, and then someone's like, we're.

1575
01:25:46,120 --> 01:25:48,280
Speaker 3: Going to try again, get to root him out. Let's

1576
01:25:48,320 --> 01:25:50,680
Speaker 3: try again. And that's when they're down in the Everglades.

1577
01:25:50,760 --> 01:25:51,960
Speaker 1: And that's the long.

1578
01:25:53,439 --> 01:25:54,679
Speaker 4: In cat and Mouse.

1579
01:25:54,760 --> 01:25:55,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's cat and mouse.

1580
01:25:56,040 --> 01:26:00,360
Speaker 3: It's it's navy riverine warfare and uh in the ever Glades,

1581
01:26:00,360 --> 01:26:04,479
Speaker 3: in the Everglades, and it's not much action. They find

1582
01:26:04,479 --> 01:26:07,160
Speaker 3: empty villages, they burn the villages because.

1583
01:26:06,880 --> 01:26:08,200
Speaker 1: Then know they're common, and they just move out of

1584
01:26:08,240 --> 01:26:08,479
Speaker 1: the way.

1585
01:26:08,479 --> 01:26:11,640
Speaker 3: Well they find them, yeah, they exactly, exactly, and they

1586
01:26:11,680 --> 01:26:13,920
Speaker 3: have canoes and they'll just go to there another sanctuary.

1587
01:26:14,439 --> 01:26:17,360
Speaker 1: Okay. So so that's the third seminar, that's the third

1588
01:26:17,360 --> 01:26:21,559
Speaker 1: summer to the seminal, it's just the long war, yes, yeah,

1589
01:26:22,080 --> 01:26:25,320
Speaker 1: do the seminal view. I don't want you to put

1590
01:26:25,320 --> 01:26:29,040
Speaker 1: in your position where you're like, well you don't understand how

1591
01:26:29,080 --> 01:26:32,280
Speaker 1: they view it, yeah, or their officials stand tell you what,

1592
01:26:32,320 --> 01:26:38,400
Speaker 1: I know, the seminole do they view that they is there?

1593
01:26:38,520 --> 01:26:40,280
Speaker 1: Story that they were stood in one?

1594
01:26:41,439 --> 01:26:45,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, yeah, because they're there. Yeah yeah, and there.

1595
01:26:45,840 --> 01:26:47,640
Speaker 2: And if you go to the I went down to

1596
01:26:47,680 --> 01:26:49,519
Speaker 2: Florida to see a lot of the sites that are

1597
01:26:49,520 --> 01:26:51,840
Speaker 2: in there. And if you go to the Asiki Museum,

1598
01:26:51,840 --> 01:26:54,479
Speaker 2: which is a seminal museum and what was the natural

1599
01:26:54,520 --> 01:26:59,800
Speaker 2: Everglades but it's been drained as you know, uh, you'll see.

1600
01:27:00,040 --> 01:27:01,280
Speaker 2: It's a great museum. You should go.

1601
01:27:01,320 --> 01:27:04,240
Speaker 3: And there's actually there's a wonderful kind of cypress swamp

1602
01:27:04,360 --> 01:27:06,439
Speaker 3: cypress dome attached to the back of it, which is

1603
01:27:06,479 --> 01:27:06,920
Speaker 3: sort of fun.

1604
01:27:06,920 --> 01:27:08,200
Speaker 2: You can go on a walkway through.

1605
01:27:08,280 --> 01:27:12,360
Speaker 3: And but you know, they're very rich. I think they

1606
01:27:12,360 --> 01:27:14,840
Speaker 3: may be the richest or they're one of the riches.

1607
01:27:14,880 --> 01:27:17,680
Speaker 3: They own hard Rack Cafe. They made a lot of

1608
01:27:17,720 --> 01:27:19,120
Speaker 3: money from casinos.

1609
01:27:19,280 --> 01:27:22,200
Speaker 1: I've I've been on the reservation.

1610
01:27:21,400 --> 01:27:23,519
Speaker 2: Dog cool yeah yeah, yeah.

1611
01:27:23,600 --> 01:27:25,479
Speaker 3: So all the cars in that parking lot or like

1612
01:27:25,720 --> 01:27:31,920
Speaker 3: you know, it's the Corvette, Porsche and the jet. The

1613
01:27:33,640 --> 01:27:36,360
Speaker 3: Chief of the Nation has a jet. It's named after

1614
01:27:36,400 --> 01:27:40,280
Speaker 3: Sam Jones, after Abiaka. It's called Arpieca. That's that's his

1615
01:27:40,280 --> 01:27:44,760
Speaker 3: own personal jet. So yeah, I mean they're proud. They

1616
01:27:44,760 --> 01:27:48,840
Speaker 3: should be proud. Yeah, they they stayed and and you

1617
01:27:48,880 --> 01:27:52,240
Speaker 3: know the the six hundred Mi Kazuki's and the eighteen

1618
01:27:52,320 --> 01:27:58,360
Speaker 3: hundred members of the Seminole tribe of Florida, that's that's

1619
01:27:58,439 --> 01:27:59,280
Speaker 3: their heritage.

1620
01:28:00,040 --> 01:28:01,960
Speaker 1: Do you remember you say it in your book if

1621
01:28:01,960 --> 01:28:06,160
Speaker 1: you remembered off top of your head, when Jackson was

1622
01:28:06,200 --> 01:28:08,200
Speaker 1: doing what was the name of his what was the

1623
01:28:08,280 --> 01:28:08,840
Speaker 1: name of his.

1624
01:28:08,840 --> 01:28:13,280
Speaker 2: Policy, his the Indian Removal Act of eighteen thirty.

1625
01:28:13,640 --> 01:28:16,280
Speaker 1: Can you remind me what they budgeted? They had a

1626
01:28:16,280 --> 01:28:19,080
Speaker 1: budget and it was like, it'll cost us like a

1627
01:28:19,120 --> 01:28:23,280
Speaker 1: buck seventy right or whatever. It was like a buck

1628
01:28:23,360 --> 01:28:27,120
Speaker 1: seventy or twenty seven bucks or something to move every

1629
01:28:27,160 --> 01:28:29,559
Speaker 1: Indian to Oklahoma. It'll like it'll be like they had

1630
01:28:29,560 --> 01:28:32,720
Speaker 1: it narrowed down to like a per head cost. Oh,

1631
01:28:33,320 --> 01:28:34,280
Speaker 1: it's in your book.

1632
01:28:34,080 --> 01:28:34,400
Speaker 2: It is.

1633
01:28:34,479 --> 01:28:38,680
Speaker 3: It's it's Jessup So Thomas Jessop Jessip was he's known

1634
01:28:38,720 --> 01:28:41,799
Speaker 3: as the father of the modern Quartermaster Corps.

1635
01:28:41,880 --> 01:28:45,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's a logistics key, he's a budget logistics Yeah.

1636
01:28:45,360 --> 01:28:46,120
Speaker 2: It makes sense.

1637
01:28:46,240 --> 01:28:49,160
Speaker 3: And he comes in in the end of eighteen thirty six,

1638
01:28:49,400 --> 01:28:52,000
Speaker 3: and in his records at the Library of Congress, I

1639
01:28:52,120 --> 01:28:55,920
Speaker 3: found this document in which he's laying out the mathematics

1640
01:28:55,960 --> 01:29:02,280
Speaker 3: of per head cost of removal. And I don't remember

1641
01:29:02,320 --> 01:29:04,400
Speaker 3: what it was. It was something like nine thousand a

1642
01:29:04,439 --> 01:29:07,040
Speaker 3: person that you had. You need this many wagons and

1643
01:29:07,080 --> 01:29:10,040
Speaker 3: this many rations over this many days, and you need

1644
01:29:10,040 --> 01:29:12,559
Speaker 3: these boats and that sort of thing.

1645
01:29:13,880 --> 01:29:15,240
Speaker 2: The Indian removal.

1646
01:29:15,000 --> 01:29:16,880
Speaker 1: It wasn't nine thousand bucks per person.

1647
01:29:17,080 --> 01:29:19,080
Speaker 2: How much was it. It's in the oh, it was like.

1648
01:29:20,600 --> 01:29:21,960
Speaker 1: Like twenty bucks or something.

1649
01:29:22,960 --> 01:29:24,840
Speaker 3: It may have been less than that. It could have been.

1650
01:29:26,280 --> 01:29:27,719
Speaker 3: It was far less than they paid.

1651
01:29:27,840 --> 01:29:30,559
Speaker 2: You know. The war effort was ended up being forty

1652
01:29:30,600 --> 01:29:31,240
Speaker 2: million dollars.

1653
01:29:31,280 --> 01:29:32,599
Speaker 1: Noh, yeah, hit no, I'm sorry.

1654
01:29:32,760 --> 01:29:34,479
Speaker 2: I hate to hit you with like a no, It's

1655
01:29:34,520 --> 01:29:34,880
Speaker 2: all good.

1656
01:29:35,040 --> 01:29:39,160
Speaker 1: It was like they had calculated per just when you

1657
01:29:39,200 --> 01:29:41,760
Speaker 1: move for the people you move for the people you

1658
01:29:41,800 --> 01:29:43,640
Speaker 1: were going to move to Oklahoma, it was going to

1659
01:29:43,720 --> 01:29:48,600
Speaker 1: cost you some surprisingly low amount of money, like just

1660
01:29:48,640 --> 01:29:49,080
Speaker 1: the trip.

1661
01:29:49,240 --> 01:29:51,400
Speaker 3: You know, I know exactly what page this is on. Okay,

1662
01:29:52,040 --> 01:29:54,760
Speaker 3: it's not in the Indian Removal Act. It's it's I

1663
01:29:54,800 --> 01:29:58,639
Speaker 3: found this in Jessp's files let's see what he says here.

1664
01:30:03,520 --> 01:30:07,479
Speaker 3: Transporting one even Indian removal to him was a numbers game.

1665
01:30:07,840 --> 01:30:11,360
Speaker 3: By his estimate, transporting one thousand Indians to west of

1666
01:30:11,360 --> 01:30:14,040
Speaker 3: the Mississippi necessitated to thirty you're right, I mean, it's

1667
01:30:14,120 --> 01:30:18,400
Speaker 3: not nine thousand, thirteen wagons for one hundred and twenty days,

1668
01:30:18,479 --> 01:30:21,879
Speaker 3: eighty thousand rations, two hundred ponies, and three hired hands.

1669
01:30:22,000 --> 01:30:25,360
Speaker 3: He calculated the cost to American taxpayers at twenty six

1670
01:30:25,400 --> 01:30:30,719
Speaker 3: dollars per head, a little less than nine thousands.

1671
01:30:30,760 --> 01:30:31,360
Speaker 1: Amazing man.

1672
01:30:31,439 --> 01:30:34,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it ends up being however, many multiple you know,

1673
01:30:35,120 --> 01:30:38,680
Speaker 3: it's it's the budget of the American government, the outlays

1674
01:30:38,680 --> 01:30:41,360
Speaker 3: of the American government in eighteen thirty five or seventeen

1675
01:30:41,400 --> 01:30:44,800
Speaker 3: point five million, and this war ends up costing thirty

1676
01:30:44,800 --> 01:30:45,880
Speaker 3: to forty million dollars.

1677
01:30:47,280 --> 01:30:48,360
Speaker 2: It's the longest part.

1678
01:30:48,640 --> 01:30:51,040
Speaker 1: That's part of the debate too, Like it's so similar

1679
01:30:51,840 --> 01:30:55,160
Speaker 1: to the ill defined wars that we've engaged in since

1680
01:30:55,200 --> 01:30:58,880
Speaker 1: then of at some point people are like, this is

1681
01:30:59,040 --> 01:31:05,040
Speaker 1: very costly, it's not working. There are morale issues, there

1682
01:31:05,080 --> 01:31:09,920
Speaker 1: are moral issues. This was supposed to be quick. Yeah,

1683
01:31:10,120 --> 01:31:11,880
Speaker 1: you'd all promise us that this is going to be

1684
01:31:11,960 --> 01:31:12,759
Speaker 1: over in a month.

1685
01:31:13,439 --> 01:31:15,000
Speaker 2: That's right, that's right.

1686
01:31:15,320 --> 01:31:18,479
Speaker 3: I mean at one point, Jessep says, the country, the

1687
01:31:18,479 --> 01:31:22,000
Speaker 3: country that we are quote unquote conquering, is not worth

1688
01:31:22,040 --> 01:31:24,680
Speaker 3: a tenth of the cost in lives and treasure m

1689
01:31:25,360 --> 01:31:26,080
Speaker 3: He said, any train.

1690
01:31:26,160 --> 01:31:28,960
Speaker 2: It's like, can I quit? This was a bad idea.

1691
01:31:29,200 --> 01:31:32,160
Speaker 3: And also after he starts losing sort of or he

1692
01:31:32,200 --> 01:31:35,760
Speaker 3: can't succeed. Can't we just allow them to stay in

1693
01:31:35,800 --> 01:31:37,920
Speaker 3: the south of Florida. We're not going to plant there,

1694
01:31:39,439 --> 01:31:43,160
Speaker 3: and they do stay, you know, Abiaca's people and Seminal

1695
01:31:43,200 --> 01:31:45,160
Speaker 3: and the Seminal people who stayed, they do stay in

1696
01:31:45,160 --> 01:31:48,400
Speaker 3: the south. It will cause anybody any problem, jes what

1697
01:31:48,479 --> 01:31:50,880
Speaker 3: I mean kind of right, He's like, do I have

1698
01:31:50,960 --> 01:31:51,360
Speaker 3: to do this?

1699
01:31:52,160 --> 01:31:53,800
Speaker 2: Can't we just let them stay in the south and

1700
01:31:53,960 --> 01:31:58,080
Speaker 2: I can come, I can go home to my farm.

1701
01:31:58,200 --> 01:32:02,040
Speaker 1: At what point does Assiola get There's a really gory

1702
01:32:02,080 --> 01:32:04,880
Speaker 1: detail about this whole thing, but like, how does Asiola

1703
01:32:04,920 --> 01:32:05,360
Speaker 1: get caught?

1704
01:32:06,240 --> 01:32:10,400
Speaker 3: Osciola is captured under a white flag? In I want

1705
01:32:10,439 --> 01:32:16,320
Speaker 3: to say, November eighteen thirty seven by Jessop. There's some

1706
01:32:16,400 --> 01:32:18,799
Speaker 3: Andrew Jackson letters in there that I haven't seen sighted

1707
01:32:18,840 --> 01:32:21,360
Speaker 3: in which he's writing He's out of office. But he's

1708
01:32:21,360 --> 01:32:23,800
Speaker 3: writing the Secretary of War points at and he says,

1709
01:32:24,040 --> 01:32:26,519
Speaker 3: Jessup should have captured Aziola, just take him.

1710
01:32:26,720 --> 01:32:27,880
Speaker 2: Why didn't he take him?

1711
01:32:28,240 --> 01:32:30,559
Speaker 3: There's six letters in which he mentions this, and I

1712
01:32:30,640 --> 01:32:34,040
Speaker 3: found in Jessop's files in the Library of Congress. Excerpt

1713
01:32:34,120 --> 01:32:37,679
Speaker 3: from Andrew Jackson. Twenty days before he takes Asiola, Jessop

1714
01:32:37,720 --> 01:32:41,120
Speaker 3: should have captured Aciola. Twenty days later, he captures him

1715
01:32:41,200 --> 01:32:45,639
Speaker 3: under a white flag. This is a controversial action. This

1716
01:32:45,680 --> 01:32:47,960
Speaker 3: is a violation of the sacred rules of war.

1717
01:32:48,160 --> 01:32:50,519
Speaker 4: And when you say he captured him under a white flag,

1718
01:32:50,840 --> 01:32:54,599
Speaker 4: you mean Jessop, Jessop's forces, they're flying the.

1719
01:32:55,720 --> 01:32:57,519
Speaker 2: I mean the meeting.

1720
01:32:57,680 --> 01:33:00,639
Speaker 3: So there's a meeting outside of I think it's near

1721
01:33:00,760 --> 01:33:04,320
Speaker 3: Saint Augustine. It is near Saint Augustine, and there's Acola,

1722
01:33:04,720 --> 01:33:09,439
Speaker 3: and I think there's Cohajo, and there's maybe seventy Mikazuki's there.

1723
01:33:09,479 --> 01:33:11,960
Speaker 3: I think it's a group of around seventy people. And

1724
01:33:12,080 --> 01:33:15,439
Speaker 3: Jessop had given them white fabric to be used as

1725
01:33:15,479 --> 01:33:17,240
Speaker 3: a white flag. And he says, anytime you want to

1726
01:33:17,280 --> 01:33:19,479
Speaker 3: talk to us and have a meeting, this flag will

1727
01:33:19,520 --> 01:33:20,000
Speaker 3: protect you.

1728
01:33:20,280 --> 01:33:23,280
Speaker 2: We won't capture you and it's your past.

1729
01:33:23,479 --> 01:33:27,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, because in this story there are a lot of parlays.

1730
01:33:26,960 --> 01:33:29,719
Speaker 3: For sure, and then sometimes they're talking while they're fighting

1731
01:33:29,760 --> 01:33:30,479
Speaker 3: at the same time.

1732
01:33:30,560 --> 01:33:34,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, which which you realize, like which now in our

1733
01:33:34,240 --> 01:33:36,640
Speaker 1: own current conflict, which now goes on. I mean, you

1734
01:33:36,680 --> 01:33:40,920
Speaker 1: always be reading news accounts of you know, like one minute,

1735
01:33:41,040 --> 01:33:44,280
Speaker 1: you know, you're on the well Maduro woman, they're on

1736
01:33:44,320 --> 01:33:46,479
Speaker 1: the phone. The next minute's in jail, like people are.

1737
01:33:47,120 --> 01:33:48,960
Speaker 1: There's conversations happening.

1738
01:33:48,800 --> 01:33:49,280
Speaker 2: That's right.

1739
01:33:49,640 --> 01:33:52,320
Speaker 3: So this was one of the many conversations, and it

1740
01:33:52,400 --> 01:33:55,320
Speaker 3: was protected under a white flag, and Jessop gave the

1741
01:33:55,439 --> 01:33:58,680
Speaker 3: order just to seize them, as Jackson had suggested. And

1742
01:33:58,680 --> 01:34:00,639
Speaker 3: now I don't know if he read that letter before

1743
01:34:00,640 --> 01:34:02,679
Speaker 3: he did it now later.

1744
01:34:02,640 --> 01:34:06,240
Speaker 1: To lure him in talk and then just grab them.

1745
01:34:06,200 --> 01:34:06,639
Speaker 2: Just grab.

1746
01:34:07,040 --> 01:34:11,519
Speaker 3: He gives various justifications afterwards, but those are pretenses. And

1747
01:34:11,640 --> 01:34:14,960
Speaker 3: they put him in the Costello de Saint Marcos, which

1748
01:34:15,000 --> 01:34:18,240
Speaker 3: is the big Spanish fort in Saint Augustine on the

1749
01:34:18,280 --> 01:34:22,439
Speaker 3: north side. Uh, they called it Fort Marion at the time.

1750
01:34:22,920 --> 01:34:27,000
Speaker 3: And Asila becomes a prisoner in this old Spanish castle

1751
01:34:27,240 --> 01:34:33,000
Speaker 3: on the Atlantic, and uh, at one point there's a

1752
01:34:33,080 --> 01:34:33,719
Speaker 3: very dramatic.

1753
01:34:33,880 --> 01:34:34,760
Speaker 2: He's he's sick.

1754
01:34:34,800 --> 01:34:39,439
Speaker 3: At this point, it's unclear what he had. Wickman talks

1755
01:34:39,479 --> 01:34:42,120
Speaker 3: about this in the in the in the Bear Greece podcast,

1756
01:34:42,960 --> 01:34:46,519
Speaker 3: he probably had malaria. When he's in captivity, he gets

1757
01:34:46,600 --> 01:34:47,280
Speaker 3: he gets head.

1758
01:34:47,200 --> 01:34:50,880
Speaker 2: Lies, the measles. I think it's what it is. Breaks out,

1759
01:34:50,920 --> 01:34:54,000
Speaker 2: people start to die. It's not a great place to be.

1760
01:34:54,479 --> 01:34:56,680
Speaker 3: I visited it, and I saw the room that they

1761
01:34:56,680 --> 01:35:00,479
Speaker 3: were in, uh and it's like, you know, it looks

1762
01:35:00,520 --> 01:35:02,400
Speaker 3: like the set of a Robin Hood movie or something,

1763
01:35:02,400 --> 01:35:05,080
Speaker 3: you know, stone and it's damp, and there's a little

1764
01:35:05,080 --> 01:35:06,679
Speaker 3: tiny window called a loophole.

1765
01:35:06,760 --> 01:35:07,760
Speaker 1: We go to the room he was in.

1766
01:35:08,320 --> 01:35:10,840
Speaker 3: You can go to the room they escape from. Now

1767
01:35:10,880 --> 01:35:12,960
Speaker 3: he didn't escape, so he may have been. And it's

1768
01:35:13,000 --> 01:35:15,400
Speaker 3: called a casement. These are like little rooms that are

1769
01:35:15,400 --> 01:35:19,439
Speaker 3: in kind of inside the walls. And there's a very

1770
01:35:19,520 --> 01:35:24,120
Speaker 3: dramatic escape of twenty including the Black Seminoal John horst

1771
01:35:24,200 --> 01:35:26,559
Speaker 3: Afro Indigenous heretics. He had a Semino father and a

1772
01:35:26,560 --> 01:35:27,439
Speaker 3: black Seminal mother.

1773
01:35:27,520 --> 01:35:28,040
Speaker 2: He's there.

1774
01:35:29,880 --> 01:35:32,720
Speaker 3: The Chief King, Philip, his son Wildcat is there. Two

1775
01:35:32,760 --> 01:35:38,040
Speaker 3: women escape and they escape out of the window, and

1776
01:35:39,960 --> 01:35:42,479
Speaker 3: Wildcat talks about it. You have a first person account

1777
01:35:42,479 --> 01:35:46,200
Speaker 3: from Wildcat. You have the report of the head of

1778
01:35:46,240 --> 01:35:48,519
Speaker 3: the fort the next day he says they went out

1779
01:35:48,560 --> 01:35:51,200
Speaker 3: the window. You have a formal board of inquiry the

1780
01:35:51,200 --> 01:35:53,880
Speaker 3: next day, and they said they went out the window.

1781
01:35:54,760 --> 01:35:57,600
Speaker 3: So all of the sources suggest that they took the

1782
01:35:57,680 --> 01:35:59,760
Speaker 3: forage bags that they were sleeping on. They were using

1783
01:35:59,800 --> 01:36:03,880
Speaker 3: them for beds. They stuffed hay in them, and they

1784
01:36:03,880 --> 01:36:07,080
Speaker 3: made ropes out of them, attached them probably to one

1785
01:36:07,120 --> 01:36:10,559
Speaker 3: of the bars that were outside of that window. It's

1786
01:36:10,880 --> 01:36:13,720
Speaker 3: the app The loophole is five feet high and at

1787
01:36:13,760 --> 01:36:18,240
Speaker 3: its narrowest it's eight inches. The story is as Wildcat

1788
01:36:18,280 --> 01:36:22,000
Speaker 3: tells it. Because they were sick at the fort, they

1789
01:36:22,040 --> 01:36:24,080
Speaker 3: convinced the guards to let them go out and get

1790
01:36:24,080 --> 01:36:28,000
Speaker 3: these special roots as medicine. What the roots were actually

1791
01:36:28,040 --> 01:36:32,120
Speaker 3: for was for them to lose weight. And so they

1792
01:36:33,080 --> 01:36:37,200
Speaker 3: fasted and they took these roots, and they waited for

1793
01:36:37,360 --> 01:36:41,000
Speaker 3: the dark of the moon. I guess the moment in

1794
01:36:41,080 --> 01:36:45,200
Speaker 3: which the moon has the least light. And they got

1795
01:36:45,240 --> 01:36:48,080
Speaker 3: it wrong by like one day, but they basically got

1796
01:36:48,080 --> 01:36:51,000
Speaker 3: it right, and they twenty of them escaped out of

1797
01:36:51,000 --> 01:36:53,639
Speaker 3: that window into the ditch. It would be a mope,

1798
01:36:53,680 --> 01:36:55,800
Speaker 3: but there was no water in it, and it's forty feet.

1799
01:36:55,520 --> 01:36:56,320
Speaker 2: Below the window.

1800
01:36:57,960 --> 01:36:59,240
Speaker 1: Dropped into that ditch.

1801
01:36:59,080 --> 01:37:01,520
Speaker 2: Dropped into that ditch and escaped.

1802
01:37:02,600 --> 01:37:05,800
Speaker 1: But not Aciola was sick, he tells.

1803
01:37:05,840 --> 01:37:09,200
Speaker 3: He writes jessup Or there's a letter which explains. The

1804
01:37:09,240 --> 01:37:11,559
Speaker 3: next day, he says, hey, by the way, last night

1805
01:37:11,600 --> 01:37:15,519
Speaker 3: they escaped, I could have, but I don't feel like it.

1806
01:37:17,160 --> 01:37:20,320
Speaker 3: I think he's ill at this point. And they take

1807
01:37:20,400 --> 01:37:25,479
Speaker 3: him to Fort Moultrie in South Carolina with others and

1808
01:37:25,520 --> 01:37:28,960
Speaker 3: he's sort of a national celebrity and everyone wants to

1809
01:37:28,960 --> 01:37:31,960
Speaker 3: come visit him, and everyone wants to paint pictures of him.

1810
01:37:32,560 --> 01:37:36,479
Speaker 3: And there's a description, you know, the crowds outside of

1811
01:37:36,520 --> 01:37:41,599
Speaker 3: the window, young and old and more especially female, come

1812
01:37:41,680 --> 01:37:44,160
Speaker 3: to wave at him, and we had to bring him

1813
01:37:44,200 --> 01:37:47,599
Speaker 3: to the window. So he's, you know, in some kind

1814
01:37:47,640 --> 01:37:49,559
Speaker 3: of a weird way, a star.

1815
01:37:51,680 --> 01:37:57,160
Speaker 1: And there's not there aren't equivalents to this today, Like

1816
01:37:57,200 --> 01:38:01,639
Speaker 1: if you go to the fact that the participates at

1817
01:38:01,640 --> 01:38:04,519
Speaker 1: the Battle of the Little Big Horn. So here's here's

1818
01:38:04,560 --> 01:38:08,800
Speaker 1: a group of people that I mean they kill right

1819
01:38:09,520 --> 01:38:13,080
Speaker 1: and in hand to hand combat, they kill US soldiers.

1820
01:38:13,640 --> 01:38:17,520
Speaker 1: But there's such a moral element to it. That participants

1821
01:38:17,560 --> 01:38:25,160
Speaker 1: at that fight become celebrities who go on tour with

1822
01:38:25,640 --> 01:38:29,240
Speaker 1: like wild West shows and you can go see and

1823
01:38:29,400 --> 01:38:35,400
Speaker 1: meet the people that killed the US soldiers, Like we

1824
01:38:35,439 --> 01:38:38,200
Speaker 1: don't have there's that that's not around anymore. Like at

1825
01:38:38,200 --> 01:38:40,760
Speaker 1: the end of World War Two, there weren't famous crowds

1826
01:38:41,840 --> 01:38:44,360
Speaker 1: that shot a bunch of Americans that you'd go and

1827
01:38:44,400 --> 01:38:45,960
Speaker 1: like pay money to shake their hand.

1828
01:38:46,920 --> 01:38:48,120
Speaker 2: Maybe von Braun.

1829
01:38:50,400 --> 01:38:54,800
Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying that what that went away,

1830
01:38:54,960 --> 01:38:58,760
Speaker 1: we don't have like al Qaeda dudes that do like tours.

1831
01:38:58,840 --> 01:39:01,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, so so how to explain this in a way

1832
01:39:01,760 --> 01:39:04,960
Speaker 3: Asiolia is a puzzle, you know. He so part of

1833
01:39:05,000 --> 01:39:08,200
Speaker 3: this is just capitalism, right, Newspapers want to sell copies

1834
01:39:08,200 --> 01:39:11,040
Speaker 3: of their newspaper. You know, if you're a painter, you

1835
01:39:11,040 --> 01:39:12,720
Speaker 3: want this is an important person, you want to.

1836
01:39:12,720 --> 01:39:14,599
Speaker 2: Go paint him.

1837
01:39:15,040 --> 01:39:18,479
Speaker 3: But there's also to a degree, you know, where what

1838
01:39:18,560 --> 01:39:21,040
Speaker 3: kind of story about the war do you want to tell?

1839
01:39:21,760 --> 01:39:23,599
Speaker 3: Do you want to tell this story like where there's

1840
01:39:23,600 --> 01:39:27,240
Speaker 3: not there many great engagements and or do you want

1841
01:39:27,280 --> 01:39:28,760
Speaker 3: to tell do you want to tell a story where

1842
01:39:28,800 --> 01:39:31,280
Speaker 3: they're being diplomatic? Do you want to tell a story

1843
01:39:31,280 --> 01:39:33,240
Speaker 3: where they're saying they don't want to fight. Do you

1844
01:39:33,280 --> 01:39:35,080
Speaker 3: want to tell a story where they're you know, at

1845
01:39:35,120 --> 01:39:38,559
Speaker 3: Fort Iszard. There's a meeting at Fort Izard where they

1846
01:39:38,560 --> 01:39:42,000
Speaker 3: have a siege of a thousand US troops and the

1847
01:39:42,120 --> 01:39:44,840
Speaker 3: and the mee Kazuki's and the Seminoles debate should we

1848
01:39:44,920 --> 01:39:47,799
Speaker 3: kill them? And the mee Kazukis say that we should

1849
01:39:47,880 --> 01:39:50,200
Speaker 3: and the Seminols say that we shouldn't. And the Seminoles

1850
01:39:50,240 --> 01:39:52,479
Speaker 3: win and they spare them. They say, do you want

1851
01:39:52,479 --> 01:39:55,240
Speaker 3: some tobacco? Do you want some? But that story doesn't

1852
01:39:55,280 --> 01:39:58,519
Speaker 3: get through. What we get is the warrior. What we

1853
01:39:58,600 --> 01:40:02,479
Speaker 3: get is the fighter. So that fighter is necessary for

1854
01:40:02,600 --> 01:40:07,240
Speaker 3: us to recruit people and to project an idea of

1855
01:40:07,280 --> 01:40:10,400
Speaker 3: the war, which is not exactly what I mean.

1856
01:40:10,439 --> 01:40:11,639
Speaker 2: Asiola is a real person.

1857
01:40:11,640 --> 01:40:14,000
Speaker 3: I don't want to overstate it, but to some degree

1858
01:40:14,040 --> 01:40:17,519
Speaker 3: he's amplifying him. I know that's not exactly what you said.

1859
01:40:17,560 --> 01:40:20,519
Speaker 3: You said they're selling people, and you can, but there's

1860
01:40:20,840 --> 01:40:24,320
Speaker 3: there's a way in which Aciola is amplified. You know,

1861
01:40:24,360 --> 01:40:27,559
Speaker 3: I'm in touch with the Seminole tribe of Florida, and

1862
01:40:27,680 --> 01:40:33,679
Speaker 3: to some degree they don't like Aciola's elevation over Sam Jones.

1863
01:40:34,520 --> 01:40:36,880
Speaker 3: You know they want Sam Jones to get more of

1864
01:40:36,920 --> 01:40:39,720
Speaker 3: the credit. Ociola worked for him. He's the one who

1865
01:40:39,720 --> 01:40:42,200
Speaker 3: outwitted him. He's the one who outfoxed him. But we

1866
01:40:42,320 --> 01:40:45,720
Speaker 3: get this warrior. Not to take anything away from Aziola,

1867
01:40:46,280 --> 01:40:49,479
Speaker 3: but part of the puzzle of his story was me

1868
01:40:49,600 --> 01:40:52,640
Speaker 3: trying to grapple this question. Why is he this famous?

1869
01:40:53,120 --> 01:40:56,559
Speaker 3: And even when he's dying, he's confused as to why

1870
01:40:56,600 --> 01:40:59,160
Speaker 3: the President doesn't want to wants to paint his picture

1871
01:41:00,040 --> 01:41:02,840
Speaker 3: on his death bet He says, all I did was

1872
01:41:02,920 --> 01:41:06,679
Speaker 3: kill General Thompson. He has a sense of his fame

1873
01:41:06,800 --> 01:41:11,360
Speaker 3: being disproportioned to his actions God, which is interesting in itself.

1874
01:41:13,080 --> 01:41:17,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, he just the press grabbed that name and he

1875
01:41:17,640 --> 01:41:20,880
Speaker 1: became a symbol of that conflict. So the people involved

1876
01:41:20,880 --> 01:41:24,000
Speaker 1: in the conflict wouldn't have named him as the primary.

1877
01:41:23,680 --> 01:41:26,800
Speaker 3: To take nothing away from him, Yeah, he's one of

1878
01:41:27,240 --> 01:41:29,400
Speaker 3: fifteen people who that could have happened to.

1879
01:41:30,640 --> 01:41:34,639
Speaker 1: Does he die of his sickness? He dies violently.

1880
01:41:35,200 --> 01:41:38,360
Speaker 3: He dies of sickness at Fort Moultrie, I think in

1881
01:41:38,479 --> 01:41:43,960
Speaker 3: January eighteen thirty eight, and he asks the doctor, uh,

1882
01:41:44,080 --> 01:41:46,720
Speaker 3: this doctor named Whedon, I would like my bones to

1883
01:41:46,760 --> 01:41:51,000
Speaker 3: be buried in Florida, and there's some account that they

1884
01:41:51,000 --> 01:41:52,120
Speaker 3: were friends.

1885
01:41:53,000 --> 01:41:55,680
Speaker 2: And he dies, he double crosses, and.

1886
01:41:55,960 --> 01:41:58,559
Speaker 3: He cuts his head off and takes his head home

1887
01:42:00,479 --> 01:42:04,200
Speaker 3: to I think Saint Augustine. What a piece of shit, man,

1888
01:42:04,240 --> 01:42:07,920
Speaker 3: you know, I agree with that. Yeah, there's a story

1889
01:42:07,920 --> 01:42:09,479
Speaker 3: you can find if you google it. I think it's

1890
01:42:09,479 --> 01:42:12,000
Speaker 3: called the Mystery of Osiola's Head or something like that.

1891
01:42:12,040 --> 01:42:14,200
Speaker 3: There's a PDF you can find in whish there's a

1892
01:42:14,240 --> 01:42:15,360
Speaker 3: description of how weed.

1893
01:42:15,360 --> 01:42:19,120
Speaker 2: And this is even worse. When his kids misbehaved, he

1894
01:42:19,160 --> 01:42:23,559
Speaker 2: would hang Aciola's embalmed head or preserved head on the

1895
01:42:23,560 --> 01:42:27,200
Speaker 2: bedstead of his children to punish them. Imagine that.

1896
01:42:27,760 --> 01:42:29,920
Speaker 3: But it was normal for people to take prizes. I

1897
01:42:29,920 --> 01:42:32,680
Speaker 3: think Isiola's missing a few fingers. Both sides took kind

1898
01:42:32,720 --> 01:42:34,280
Speaker 3: of you know, that happened.

1899
01:42:34,320 --> 01:42:35,759
Speaker 4: The past is a foreign country.

1900
01:42:35,880 --> 01:42:37,120
Speaker 2: The past is a foreign country.

1901
01:42:37,439 --> 01:42:41,160
Speaker 1: But the point is that they had this rapport. Yeah,

1902
01:42:41,200 --> 01:42:42,600
Speaker 1: he had a request.

1903
01:42:42,920 --> 01:42:48,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I agree, it's kind of you know, come on.

1904
01:42:48,840 --> 01:42:52,200
Speaker 1: Man, the past is a foreign country. Yeah, is that

1905
01:42:52,200 --> 01:42:53,160
Speaker 1: the quot country.

1906
01:42:53,320 --> 01:42:55,759
Speaker 2: The past is a foreign The original is the past

1907
01:42:55,840 --> 01:42:58,679
Speaker 2: is a foreign country. They do things differently there.

1908
01:43:00,360 --> 01:43:03,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's my new favorite quote. Yeah, that's even better

1909
01:43:03,600 --> 01:43:08,719
Speaker 1: than skepticism is the chastity of the intellect.

1910
01:43:09,240 --> 01:43:11,360
Speaker 2: Oh I like that.

1911
01:43:11,840 --> 01:43:12,479
Speaker 1: I'll trade you.

1912
01:43:12,560 --> 01:43:19,240
Speaker 2: Okay, you can have it. It's a famous line, cow Man.

1913
01:43:20,400 --> 01:43:21,519
Speaker 1: And it's never been found.

1914
01:43:22,479 --> 01:43:23,639
Speaker 2: It's never been found.

1915
01:43:24,080 --> 01:43:27,479
Speaker 3: At some point it's it's and this this document lays

1916
01:43:27,479 --> 01:43:32,320
Speaker 3: out it's he sends it maybe to a phrenologist at

1917
01:43:32,320 --> 01:43:32,880
Speaker 3: some point.

1918
01:43:32,960 --> 01:43:35,400
Speaker 2: You know where you're measuring, like the divots in the skull.

1919
01:43:35,640 --> 01:43:40,719
Speaker 3: You know this person has a very big bravery bump. Okay,

1920
01:43:40,880 --> 01:43:43,559
Speaker 3: there's actually a great story about Mark Twain visiting a

1921
01:43:43,560 --> 01:43:48,240
Speaker 3: phrenologist and he goes once like in disguise, and they

1922
01:43:48,280 --> 01:43:50,720
Speaker 3: say he's like the least funny person that they've ever met,

1923
01:43:51,120 --> 01:43:53,960
Speaker 3: like a great humor deficit. And then he goes later

1924
01:43:54,000 --> 01:43:57,439
Speaker 3: as Mark Twain. Oh yes, great sense of humor is

1925
01:43:57,479 --> 01:43:58,240
Speaker 3: so great, you can tell.

1926
01:43:58,280 --> 01:43:58,720
Speaker 2: Look at this.

1927
01:44:01,160 --> 01:44:07,439
Speaker 1: Is what is Abraham's What is Abraham's death?

1928
01:44:08,439 --> 01:44:14,479
Speaker 3: Abraham dies as an old man. I found or there

1929
01:44:14,479 --> 01:44:18,000
Speaker 3: are locals in Oklahoma who knew of his grave. It's

1930
01:44:18,040 --> 01:44:21,040
Speaker 3: never been published in a history before I found one

1931
01:44:21,040 --> 01:44:22,559
Speaker 3: of them, and I found his grave.

1932
01:44:23,320 --> 01:44:25,960
Speaker 2: I haven't seen it. He dies in Oklahoma, dies in Oklahoma.

1933
01:44:26,880 --> 01:44:28,400
Speaker 1: Why did he go to Oklahoma when.

1934
01:44:29,000 --> 01:44:33,160
Speaker 3: Indian Territory where they shipped them west of Arkansas became Oklahoma.

1935
01:44:33,360 --> 01:44:35,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I mean when did he go eight?

1936
01:44:36,080 --> 01:44:38,639
Speaker 3: He goes most Black Semos go in eighteen thirty eight.

1937
01:44:38,800 --> 01:44:41,000
Speaker 3: He still has to finish some service with the army.

1938
01:44:41,040 --> 01:44:43,519
Speaker 3: They let him go in eighteen thirty nine. Yeah, So

1939
01:44:43,600 --> 01:44:45,960
Speaker 3: he's there and then there's a trip the last chapter

1940
01:44:46,000 --> 01:44:47,959
Speaker 3: in the book, he kind of comes back to Florida

1941
01:44:48,680 --> 01:44:50,960
Speaker 3: and with the Chief of the or the soon to

1942
01:44:51,000 --> 01:44:53,280
Speaker 3: be chief of the Nation in Oklahoma, who's Jumper's son,

1943
01:44:53,320 --> 01:44:56,960
Speaker 3: who's like his friend, and William bow Legs Flato Miko,

1944
01:44:57,280 --> 01:45:00,240
Speaker 3: who's one of the most powerful people in Florida, with

1945
01:45:00,280 --> 01:45:02,280
Speaker 3: Sam Jones with the Byaka, and they go up to

1946
01:45:02,320 --> 01:45:06,120
Speaker 3: New York and kind of have a junket together and

1947
01:45:06,160 --> 01:45:08,320
Speaker 3: see New York. You know, it's sort of how do

1948
01:45:08,400 --> 01:45:12,280
Speaker 3: they see us? But he dies on April tenth, eighteen

1949
01:45:12,360 --> 01:45:17,360
Speaker 3: seventy four, as an old man. He's you know, he

1950
01:45:17,520 --> 01:45:21,719
Speaker 3: sees the Emancipation Proclamation. His son fights with the Union.

1951
01:45:22,080 --> 01:45:27,519
Speaker 2: Really yeah, and they celebrate a day August fourth, which

1952
01:45:27,560 --> 01:45:30,160
Speaker 2: they call Emancipation Day, which is the day in which

1953
01:45:30,640 --> 01:45:36,520
Speaker 2: their Creek rivals admitted all people of color as full citizenships,

1954
01:45:36,520 --> 01:45:41,080
Speaker 2: and their Creek rivals ended slavery in eighteen sixty five,

1955
01:45:41,280 --> 01:45:44,080
Speaker 2: and they would celebrate that day and have a barbecue

1956
01:45:44,120 --> 01:45:46,240
Speaker 2: and invite all the white people and invite the Indians,

1957
01:45:46,280 --> 01:45:49,599
Speaker 2: and they would ride on horseback down to a flag

1958
01:45:49,640 --> 01:45:51,519
Speaker 2: and a cannon would go off and they would circle

1959
01:45:51,560 --> 01:45:55,280
Speaker 2: the flag and then you know, have a party. So

1960
01:45:55,920 --> 01:45:58,320
Speaker 2: his life is a success.

1961
01:45:58,680 --> 01:46:01,920
Speaker 3: He shepherds his people to the west successfully, they build

1962
01:46:01,960 --> 01:46:05,720
Speaker 3: a new life. He's got a big family, you know.

1963
01:46:05,760 --> 01:46:09,360
Speaker 3: I think dying as an old man surrounded by loved ones, like,

1964
01:46:09,720 --> 01:46:11,000
Speaker 3: that's as good as you can get.

1965
01:46:11,120 --> 01:46:13,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know how old was Asie older when he

1966
01:46:13,560 --> 01:46:21,080
Speaker 2: died young thirties, mid thirties. You know, I think he's.

1967
01:46:21,240 --> 01:46:23,400
Speaker 3: Depending on you when you have If you have his

1968
01:46:23,439 --> 01:46:27,600
Speaker 3: birthday at like eighteen oh four, then yeah, he's early.

1969
01:46:27,400 --> 01:46:30,679
Speaker 2: Thirties, thirty three, thirty four.

1970
01:46:31,240 --> 01:46:36,439
Speaker 1: Mm. Yeah, dude. It is a great story, man, Thank you. Yeah,

1971
01:46:36,439 --> 01:46:38,640
Speaker 1: I appreciate it. I'm pretty far now. I don't know

1972
01:46:38,880 --> 01:46:39,439
Speaker 1: halfway in.

1973
01:46:40,880 --> 01:46:44,160
Speaker 3: I had so much fun writing it. It was such

1974
01:46:44,200 --> 01:46:47,759
Speaker 3: a journey. It was like traveling. It was like going

1975
01:46:47,800 --> 01:46:48,479
Speaker 3: somewhere else.

1976
01:46:49,400 --> 01:46:51,920
Speaker 1: What do you work on next?

1977
01:46:52,200 --> 01:46:56,639
Speaker 3: I'm toying around with a few ideas I'm thinking of doing.

1978
01:46:56,800 --> 01:46:59,360
Speaker 3: You know, this is cool Bill Bryson book. Maybe I'll

1979
01:46:59,360 --> 01:47:00,920
Speaker 3: stay in this, John, or maybe I won't. This is

1980
01:47:00,920 --> 01:47:03,519
Speaker 3: cool Bill Bryceon book called a short history and nearly everything.

1981
01:47:05,000 --> 01:47:06,800
Speaker 3: I thought that could be fun to do. If I

1982
01:47:06,840 --> 01:47:08,120
Speaker 3: could find a cool twist.

1983
01:47:07,960 --> 01:47:10,680
Speaker 2: Short history of everything else, like a big history, but.

1984
01:47:10,720 --> 01:47:12,400
Speaker 3: Do it differently. If it was a new way to

1985
01:47:12,439 --> 01:47:14,960
Speaker 3: do it differently, that could be fun. You know, I'm

1986
01:47:14,960 --> 01:47:18,120
Speaker 3: interested in everything, you know, like what were the Neanderthals?

1987
01:47:18,200 --> 01:47:21,880
Speaker 2: Like, what was it like before the before agriculture?

1988
01:47:22,320 --> 01:47:24,960
Speaker 3: You know, Homo sapiens go back to three hundred thousand

1989
01:47:25,040 --> 01:47:29,479
Speaker 3: years up until the Neolithic agricultural revolution twelve thousand years ago.

1990
01:47:30,360 --> 01:47:33,240
Speaker 3: They're hunting, they're fishing, and so there's just so many

1991
01:47:33,280 --> 01:47:34,080
Speaker 3: great stories.

1992
01:47:35,080 --> 01:47:35,479
Speaker 1: I don't know.

1993
01:47:35,760 --> 01:47:37,679
Speaker 2: I'm toying around with a few ideas.

1994
01:47:37,800 --> 01:47:40,960
Speaker 1: You know. The thing that has evaded us for years

1995
01:47:41,840 --> 01:47:49,519
Speaker 1: is a guest to come on and talk about the Neanderthals.

1996
01:47:49,640 --> 01:47:52,760
Speaker 1: You can't find them, dude, Can you not know? I've

1997
01:47:52,760 --> 01:47:54,920
Speaker 1: even gone on other podcasts trying to find them.

1998
01:47:54,920 --> 01:47:55,839
Speaker 2: I'll give you a suggestion.

1999
01:47:56,000 --> 01:47:56,679
Speaker 4: I know of one.

2000
01:47:57,479 --> 01:48:03,519
Speaker 3: There's a book that's called Kindred. Kindred does that ring about?

2001
01:48:04,160 --> 01:48:06,320
Speaker 3: I didn't read it, but it came across my radar.

2002
01:48:06,920 --> 01:48:09,040
Speaker 1: All due respect, Yeah, I'll do a writer. I didn't

2003
01:48:09,040 --> 01:48:10,400
Speaker 1: want a writer. I wanted a researcher.

2004
01:48:10,680 --> 01:48:11,479
Speaker 2: But I'll take a writer.

2005
01:48:11,800 --> 01:48:13,519
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, you you made me like writers.

2006
01:48:13,880 --> 01:48:17,680
Speaker 2: Okay, little research research, you know.

2007
01:48:17,720 --> 01:48:20,080
Speaker 1: I was on THEO Von's podcast, and on THEO I

2008
01:48:20,120 --> 01:48:22,519
Speaker 1: was like, he's got a huge audience, and I'll say like, hey,

2009
01:48:23,040 --> 01:48:25,920
Speaker 1: just by the way, if you're a great Neanderthal guest,

2010
01:48:26,000 --> 01:48:29,160
Speaker 1: let me know nothing. Yeah nothing, No, We've we've found

2011
01:48:29,160 --> 01:48:31,080
Speaker 1: all the ones and gone to try to get them.

2012
01:48:31,200 --> 01:48:34,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean people want actual Neanderthal guests would be good,

2013
01:48:35,240 --> 01:48:36,240
Speaker 4: that would be ideal.

2014
01:48:36,520 --> 01:48:40,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's like, what do you all think about?

2015
01:48:39,600 --> 01:48:43,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, we need to phrase this ask very precisely.

2016
01:48:43,640 --> 01:48:47,120
Speaker 5: No, we need to get with the genetic testing companies

2017
01:48:47,160 --> 01:48:52,280
Speaker 5: and if anyone has like by outsize proportion, come in

2018
01:48:52,400 --> 01:48:56,400
Speaker 5: with I have right, we know that.

2019
01:48:56,560 --> 01:48:59,160
Speaker 4: But like the I think the red hair is a marker?

2020
01:48:59,320 --> 01:49:01,599
Speaker 1: Do you you have do you have heavy duty?

2021
01:49:01,760 --> 01:49:05,000
Speaker 4: No, I've never stuck my I've never I've never dipped

2022
01:49:05,040 --> 01:49:07,200
Speaker 4: my toe into the water of genetic.

2023
01:49:07,120 --> 01:49:10,400
Speaker 1: It's you know what, there's there's a book about this,

2024
01:49:11,000 --> 01:49:16,120
Speaker 1: and it's a very very sore subject in academia to

2025
01:49:16,280 --> 01:49:23,559
Speaker 1: talk about what parts of the globe have people that

2026
01:49:23,720 --> 01:49:30,640
Speaker 1: have much greater representation of Neanderthal genomics or whatever. Yeah,

2027
01:49:31,280 --> 01:49:33,439
Speaker 1: it's just it's like this guy in this book. I

2028
01:49:33,479 --> 01:49:35,120
Speaker 1: think it was in the Seven Daughters of you know,

2029
01:49:35,360 --> 01:49:36,800
Speaker 1: I don't want I don't want to say what book

2030
01:49:36,800 --> 01:49:39,280
Speaker 1: it was that maybe the Seven Daughters of Eve. I

2031
01:49:39,280 --> 01:49:41,280
Speaker 1: can't remember what book. Not forget that, I don't know

2032
01:49:41,320 --> 01:49:44,480
Speaker 1: that that's the book. There's a book about human history

2033
01:49:44,960 --> 01:49:48,400
Speaker 1: that and he talks there. He's like, this is this

2034
01:49:48,479 --> 01:49:51,160
Speaker 1: is a thing you do not discuss.

2035
01:49:51,320 --> 01:49:56,440
Speaker 4: I think just the implications of certain you know, being underdeveloped,

2036
01:49:56,960 --> 01:49:58,599
Speaker 4: like the commercial.

2037
01:49:58,840 --> 01:50:02,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, you don't talk about what parts like when

2038
01:50:03,000 --> 01:50:07,160
Speaker 1: you look at however it worked with the human diaspora.

2039
01:50:08,120 --> 01:50:13,080
Speaker 1: As the diaspora is occurring, certain branches and arms carried

2040
01:50:13,120 --> 01:50:17,519
Speaker 1: heavy Neanderthal representation. Yes, and it's just become a taboo subject.

2041
01:50:18,560 --> 01:50:20,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not normal because there's.

2042
01:50:20,200 --> 01:50:22,280
Speaker 1: The old idea that it was bad. But then the

2043
01:50:22,280 --> 01:50:25,679
Speaker 1: reason I'm interested in the subject is everything we find

2044
01:50:25,680 --> 01:50:27,559
Speaker 1: out about them makes them seem smarter.

2045
01:50:28,560 --> 01:50:33,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, they were advanced they liked art. And then there's

2046
01:50:33,320 --> 01:50:37,439
Speaker 3: the Denisovans. It's like, I think I read maybe this

2047
01:50:37,600 --> 01:50:40,040
Speaker 3: two percent what is it neanderthal? Two percent of people

2048
01:50:40,080 --> 01:50:42,600
Speaker 3: have Neanderthal DNA?

2049
01:50:42,439 --> 01:50:46,000
Speaker 2: Is it more? Then there's a trace of it.

2050
01:50:46,200 --> 01:50:49,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, And then there's like a ghost species that I

2051
01:50:49,280 --> 01:50:52,000
Speaker 3: was reading about, where like there's this you know, it's

2052
01:50:52,040 --> 01:50:55,280
Speaker 3: it's not normal to be the only species left in

2053
01:50:55,320 --> 01:50:59,120
Speaker 3: your genus for most animals, it wouldn't wrong horns in us, right,

2054
01:50:59,479 --> 01:51:01,400
Speaker 3: So it's so it's weird that we're the only ones

2055
01:51:01,439 --> 01:51:01,880
Speaker 3: that made it.

2056
01:51:01,880 --> 01:51:04,240
Speaker 2: It's kind of a mystery, a mystery to itself.

2057
01:51:04,640 --> 01:51:07,680
Speaker 1: But oh no, there's a point I make. I think

2058
01:51:07,720 --> 01:51:11,559
Speaker 1: it's in our in our Outdoor cookbook. Weird place to

2059
01:51:11,600 --> 01:51:14,600
Speaker 1: make at this point. And then forward the introduction to

2060
01:51:14,680 --> 01:51:17,639
Speaker 1: our Outdoor Cookbook, I talk about there was a time

2061
01:51:18,760 --> 01:51:22,800
Speaker 1: when you could be in Spain, you could be in

2062
01:51:22,840 --> 01:51:25,960
Speaker 1: northern Israel, all kinds of places, and you would see

2063
01:51:25,960 --> 01:51:30,559
Speaker 1: a fire. Yeah okay, yeah, fifty thousand years ago, sixty

2064
01:51:30,600 --> 01:51:34,559
Speaker 1: thousand years ago, you would see a fire burning, and

2065
01:51:34,640 --> 01:51:39,960
Speaker 1: you'd have to ask yourself what kind of people, not

2066
01:51:40,080 --> 01:51:46,000
Speaker 1: what tribe, m h, what what kind of what human species?

2067
01:51:46,120 --> 01:51:48,120
Speaker 1: Might that be up there at that fire.

2068
01:51:48,760 --> 01:51:50,839
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

2069
01:51:50,640 --> 01:51:52,599
Speaker 1: The same way like a mule deer can roll up

2070
01:51:52,600 --> 01:51:56,040
Speaker 1: on a white tail and you're like, for too, like

2071
01:51:56,120 --> 01:51:58,799
Speaker 1: an outside either like, oh yeah, they are a little different.

2072
01:51:59,240 --> 01:52:03,040
Speaker 1: You there would be dudes running around yeah something like

2073
01:52:03,080 --> 01:52:05,200
Speaker 1: an outsider might be like, oh yeah, they are kind

2074
01:52:05,200 --> 01:52:06,080
Speaker 1: of different. Yeah.

2075
01:52:06,120 --> 01:52:08,439
Speaker 3: And there's like you know, and then there's interspecies like

2076
01:52:08,479 --> 01:52:09,559
Speaker 3: love affairs, right.

2077
01:52:09,560 --> 01:52:11,840
Speaker 2: And they know when that was happening, ad mixing.

2078
01:52:12,160 --> 01:52:14,600
Speaker 1: Because mule deer would get it on with white tails,

2079
01:52:16,680 --> 01:52:19,800
Speaker 1: and so I want to get a great knee and

2080
01:52:19,840 --> 01:52:22,000
Speaker 1: a tall person on man. But yeah, I guess the writer.

2081
01:52:22,120 --> 01:52:22,519
Speaker 1: I don't know.

2082
01:52:23,120 --> 01:52:25,439
Speaker 2: I see come back in three four years.

2083
01:52:25,520 --> 01:52:26,840
Speaker 1: How long is it taking into the book?

2084
01:52:27,080 --> 01:52:28,360
Speaker 2: I'm game, I don't know.

2085
01:52:29,080 --> 01:52:31,040
Speaker 1: Three years. We didn't get into your personal life. What's

2086
01:52:31,080 --> 01:52:32,599
Speaker 1: going on? Are you married or anything?

2087
01:52:32,640 --> 01:52:33,240
Speaker 2: Like? Single?

2088
01:52:33,560 --> 01:52:34,200
Speaker 1: Sing? Yeah?

2089
01:52:34,479 --> 01:52:41,080
Speaker 2: Old, I'm forty five? All right, ladies, Yeah, tell you

2090
01:52:41,200 --> 01:52:42,160
Speaker 2: got any ideas?

2091
01:52:44,200 --> 01:52:46,679
Speaker 1: I don't. I mean, you just just bade the trap.

2092
01:52:46,840 --> 01:52:53,559
Speaker 2: Cool, yeah, right right on my install which I don't have.

2093
01:52:53,920 --> 01:52:57,880
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah cool. Well here if someone wanted to meet them,

2094
01:52:58,000 --> 01:53:01,360
Speaker 1: yeah yeah, they need to wait, like for his Neanderthal

2095
01:53:01,439 --> 01:53:03,040
Speaker 1: book to come out. And you go to the book

2096
01:53:03,040 --> 01:53:05,240
Speaker 1: event old, No, go to the book.

2097
01:53:05,080 --> 01:53:08,240
Speaker 2: End for this, Yeah, February third, The Free and the Dead.

2098
01:53:09,120 --> 01:53:11,400
Speaker 1: And then ask him out to dinner. The Freeing the Dead,

2099
01:53:11,600 --> 01:53:16,479
Speaker 1: The Untold Story of the Black Seminal Chief, the Indigenous Rebel,

2100
01:53:16,560 --> 01:53:21,360
Speaker 1: and America's Forgotten War by Jamie Holmes. Thanks for coming on.

2101
01:53:22,160 --> 01:53:23,920
Speaker 1: Can't wait to have you back on with your next book.

2102
01:53:23,960 --> 01:53:25,840
Speaker 2: That was so much fun. Thanks appreciate it.