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Speaker 1: Pushing.

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Speaker 2: I'm Khalil Jibron Muhammad.

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Speaker 3: I'm Ben Austen. We are two best friends, one black,

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Speaker 3: one white.

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Speaker 2: I'm a historian and I'm a journalist. And this is

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Speaker 2: some of my best friends are.

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Speaker 3: Some of my best friends are in this show. We

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Speaker 3: wrestle with the challenges and the absurdities of a deeply

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Speaker 3: divided and unequal country.

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Speaker 2: Today on the show we have the sociologist Matthew Desmond.

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Speaker 2: He is the author of a new book called Poverty

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Speaker 2: by America. Yes, an exploration of the United States, the

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Speaker 2: richest country in the world that has tremendous guard at

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Speaker 2: you in poverty. This book is a call to action,

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Speaker 2: and this problem is on all of us to understand

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Speaker 2: and work to fix.

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Speaker 3: Man. We are so happy to have matt on the show.

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Speaker 3: He studies and writes about what I also write about,

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Speaker 3: which is housing. His last book, Evicted, Poverty and Profit

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Speaker 3: in the American City, won a Pulitzer Prize. Yeah you'll

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Speaker 3: pin baby, Dad is coming.

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Speaker 2: Matthew Desmond. It is so wonderful to welcome you to

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Speaker 2: some of my best friends are.

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Speaker 1: It's great to see you too. Thank you so much

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Speaker 1: for having.

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Speaker 3: Me and matt We got to see each other in

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Speaker 3: Chicago just a couple months ago while you're on your

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Speaker 3: book tour, and it was amazing to talk to you.

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Speaker 1: Then, well, I've been living with your ideas for a

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Speaker 1: while because I just read your new book that's coming

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Speaker 1: out soon and loved it. I can't wait to see

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Speaker 1: it out in the world. And congratulations on that. And

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Speaker 1: what an incredible accomplishment. Band man, it's amazing.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, thank you. I really appreciate it.

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Speaker 2: It has this very prideful smirk on his face.

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Speaker 3: I'm ready to be like I just dropped the recorder.

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Speaker 3: I'm like, done, done deal.

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Speaker 2: In case you the listener, were wondering, yes, correction will

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Speaker 2: be at a bookstore near you soon, so listen. You

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Speaker 2: and I met each other at Harvard several years ago

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Speaker 2: when I joined the Kennedy School faculty, and we became

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Speaker 2: close friends. At the time, we were part of a

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Speaker 2: community of folks, including Diva Pager, to whom you dedicate

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Speaker 2: this book, a fear sociologist who helped us understand just

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Speaker 2: how pervasive structural racism and biases in our labor markets.

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Speaker 2: And I just got to tell you, you know, my

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Speaker 2: time at Harvard has never been the same since you left, man,

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Speaker 2: you abandoned me for Princeton, Like what a year later? Like,

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Speaker 2: what's up with that? We haven't really talked about this,

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Speaker 2: but I just need you to know I haven't been

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Speaker 2: happy since you left.

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Speaker 1: It was personal. I have to say, I miss the event,

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Speaker 1: I miss you, I miss our talks, I miss running

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Speaker 1: into you and our coffees and our and our beers.

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Speaker 1: And you know, Diva was such a powerful spiritual and

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Speaker 1: intellectual force in my life. And you know, she passed away,

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Speaker 1: as you know, too young, and a lot of her

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Speaker 1: energy and her spirit I hope to a channel in

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Speaker 1: this book and this work. So she was the best

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Speaker 1: of us. And thank you for opening up that conversation

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Speaker 1: with her memory.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, all right, Matt. So, as you say,

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Speaker 3: we are the richest country in the world. It's crazy,

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Speaker 3: and yet we have more poverty, more poor people than

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Speaker 3: any other developed country. That's that's our story. And I

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Speaker 3: wanted to ask you about the writing of this book,

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Speaker 3: why this topic, Why focus on poverty.

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Speaker 1: Well, I've been working on poverty all of my adult life,

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Speaker 1: you know, and I've lived in very poor communities, you know,

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Speaker 1: I've taught hundreds of students, you know, classes on inequality

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Speaker 1: and poverty. But I just had this conviction, this nagget conviction,

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Speaker 1: Like if someone stopped me on the street and was like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: you know, why do we have so much poverty in

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Speaker 1: American how can we in it? What would be my answer?

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Speaker 1: You know? And I felt like I didn't really have

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Speaker 1: an answer, a nail down answer to that. You know.

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Speaker 1: Tony Morrison always said that she wrote books that she

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Speaker 1: wanted to read, and for me, this was kind of

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Speaker 1: like that. I felt I needed this book. I needed,

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Speaker 1: at least for myself, to get a kind of story

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Speaker 1: about American poverty down on paper. And so that's what

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Speaker 1: this attempt is. And it's an attempt to tell the

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Speaker 1: news story about poverty in America, one that I don't

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Speaker 1: think has been really told before.

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Speaker 2: That question, so what are we supposed to do about it?

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Speaker 2: Is one of the hardest questions that people like you

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Speaker 2: and me and even Ben, you know, as a journalist

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Speaker 2: who has written about public policy and about housing in particular,

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Speaker 2: like it's always the hardest question to answer because you

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Speaker 2: we're all so good at diagnosis. We're also good at

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Speaker 2: laying out the problem. But I really love what you

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Speaker 2: just said. I love that you said, you know what,

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Speaker 2: I needed to answer that question for myself first, and

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Speaker 2: once I figured it out, I needed to answer it

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Speaker 2: in such a way that everyone could understand with clarity.

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Speaker 2: That's really brilliant. I mean, the one thing that I

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Speaker 2: think is really also interesting, Matt, is your own story.

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Speaker 2: I mean, this is not just a topic you enter

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Speaker 2: into through the Ivory Tower as an intellectual abstraction, as

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Speaker 2: you know, someone who's just curious about empirical research and

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Speaker 2: the answers. You are also someone who tells in this

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Speaker 2: book your own struggle with family poverty. Tell us a

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Speaker 2: little bit about what that was like for you growing

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Speaker 2: up in Arizona and elsewhere.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I grew up in Winslow, Arizona, which is an

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Speaker 1: Eagle Song and railroad town, and money was really tight

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Speaker 1: around our home. We got our gas shut off and

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Speaker 1: then and we lost our home when I was in college.

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Speaker 1: There's this old line by Seawreight Mills, a sociologist, that says,

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Speaker 1: you know, sociology is about making personal problems political. And

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Speaker 1: I think this is, you know, one of the beautiful

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Speaker 1: gifts that my discipline can give to the world. You know,

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Speaker 1: to look at my foreclosure or someone else's eviction say look,

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Speaker 1: this isn't this isn't on you. You know, there's a

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Speaker 1: there's a bigger game afoot in a way. And I

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Speaker 1: think that experiencing poverty myself left me kind of curious

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Speaker 1: about why, you know, why there's so much poverty in

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Speaker 1: this land of dollars. And then when I moved to

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Speaker 1: Milwaukee for the last book, I saw kind of poverty

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Speaker 1: that I just never had seen before, you know, never

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Speaker 1: experienced before. That's when I saw like Grandma's living without

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Speaker 1: heat in the winter, and you know, kids routinely getting evicted.

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Speaker 1: And I think that further drove that question inside of me.

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Speaker 3: I'm interested in how those experiences led you to the

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Speaker 3: work you do. And also you lot, you write a

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Speaker 3: lot about race and the ways in your own experience

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Speaker 3: that you, as a white person could pass for not poor,

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Speaker 3: and how you thought about that in terms of your work.

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Speaker 1: So on the on the first part of the question,

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Speaker 1: you know, I think one of the things that really

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Speaker 1: changed my thinking about poverty in Milwaukee was, you know,

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Speaker 1: I moved into a mobile home park, right and one

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Speaker 1: of the questions I started with was like, why would

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Speaker 1: you buy a mobile home park, you know, like, if

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Speaker 1: you could afford a mobile home park, why would you

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Speaker 1: buy a mobile home park? And then the landlord opened

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Speaker 1: up his books to me, you know, and so I

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Speaker 1: could calculate his bottom line, and I learned that, like,

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Speaker 1: the landlord of the poorest mobile home park in the

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Speaker 1: fourth worest city in the country was bringing home over

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Speaker 1: four hundred thousand dollars a year after expenses, after taxes,

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Speaker 1: after expenses, and so then I was like, oh, why

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Speaker 1: wouldn't you buy a mobile home park? And you know,

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Speaker 1: his tenants were living on social Security and disability, and

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Speaker 1: so that made me really see poverty in terms of

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Speaker 1: you know, winners and losers, and I you know, that's

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Speaker 1: not the kind of story they teach us at places

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Speaker 1: like the Kennedy School, you know, And so it really

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Speaker 1: affected me. And and I think that on your second question, Ben's,

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Speaker 1: that's a complicated question, I feel, and I feel that

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Speaker 1: the best we can do is just be honest about

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Speaker 1: our blind spots and our who we are and what

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Speaker 1: we bring to the table. And I mean, it's not

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Speaker 1: just the things that everyone talks about, right, like your

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Speaker 1: race or your gender. It's like how straight your teeth are.

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Speaker 1: How you talk when someone gets arrested. Do you say

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Speaker 1: what did he do? Or do you say what they

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Speaker 1: get him for? Like, these little things really matter on

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Speaker 1: a day to day basis on the ground, I think too,

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Speaker 1: and I think the best we can do is just

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Speaker 1: be be clear about what doors are open and what

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Speaker 1: doors are shut because of who we are, who you know,

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Speaker 1: who we are, and what we bring.

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Speaker 2: We're going to take a quick break, and when we

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Speaker 2: get back, we're going to talk about some of those

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Speaker 2: problems they've motivated you to write this book, and how

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Speaker 2: endemic and entrenched they are, and they are not by accident.

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Speaker 2: We'll be right back after the break. Welcome back to

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Speaker 2: some of my best friends. Are We are talking with

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Speaker 2: Matthew Desmond, author of Poverty Comma by America Today. This

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Speaker 2: is an incredibly rich and powerful book, Matthew. And let's

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Speaker 2: talk about the actual problem of poverty, something that most

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Speaker 2: politicians don't actually talk about. Surprisingly, and so I'm just

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Speaker 2: going to throw some of your own stats out just

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Speaker 2: for our listeners. There's thirty eight million people living without

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Speaker 2: enough food and a decent place to live. One hundred

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Speaker 2: and eight million people who live a little bit better,

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Speaker 2: but live on less than fifty five thousand dollars a year.

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Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure most of our listeners understand what that means.

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Speaker 2: One million homeless public school children and two million people

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Speaker 2: in the United States of America without running water or.

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Speaker 3: Toilet in there.

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Speaker 2: So this is just a slice of the problem. Tell

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Speaker 2: us why is it that America has so many poor

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Speaker 2: people when it is, in fact the richest country in

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Speaker 2: the world. What has caused this?

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Speaker 1: We've caused this, and by we, I'd like to challenge

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Speaker 1: all of us to ride ourselves into that we. You know,

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Speaker 1: often when we talk about we or the who's to blame,

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Speaker 1: it's always the other political party, that guy that's a

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Speaker 1: little richer than us. But a lot of us benefit

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Speaker 1: from poverty. This is by design. You know. Many of

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Speaker 1: us consume the cheap goods and services the working poor produce.

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Speaker 1: Many of us are the shareholders of shareholder capitalism, you know,

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Speaker 1: don't we benefit when we see our returns coming back

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Speaker 1: or our pensions grow, and when that comes at a

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Speaker 1: human sacrifice. The welfare states imbalanced. You know, we give

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Speaker 1: the most to families that need it the least, especially

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Speaker 1: in lucrative tax ride offs. And then we have the

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Speaker 1: audacity to claim we can't afford to do more.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so let's break it down. Let's talk about the

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Speaker 2: tax system. For example, how is it that, as you

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Speaker 2: write in the book, middle to upper income people receive

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Speaker 2: more public benefits call it welfare or tax benefits or

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Speaker 2: tax breaks than poor people by the numbers? How does

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Speaker 2: this work?

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Speaker 1: All? Right? So a lot of us have a hard

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Speaker 1: time seeing a tax break like a welfare check, which

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Speaker 1: makes sense, that's kind of how our brains work. But

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Speaker 1: you know, a tax break and a welfare check they

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Speaker 1: cost the government money, they both contribute to the deficit,

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Speaker 1: and they both put money in our pocket. So if

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Speaker 1: we get a tax break because we own a home,

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Speaker 1: for example, the mortgage interest seduction, we could either receive

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Speaker 1: that benefit by the government letting us to up the

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Speaker 1: interest come tag time, or they could just mail us

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Speaker 1: a check during that time. It's the same difference. So

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Speaker 1: if we think in those terms and we start adding

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Speaker 1: up everything the government does for us, every tax break,

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Speaker 1: every means tested program, every social insurance program, you learn

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Speaker 1: that the poorest families in America, families in the bottom

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Speaker 1: twenty percent of income distribution, they get about twenty six

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars a year from the government, but the richest families,

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Speaker 1: those in the top twenty percent, receive about thirty five

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars a year from the government on average. That's

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Speaker 1: almost a forty percent difference. That's what I'm talking about, right,

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Speaker 1: That's what we're talking about. It in balanced welfare state.

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Speaker 1: That's that's how we do more to guard fortunes than

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Speaker 1: fight poverty.

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Speaker 3: You and I both write about housing, and so again

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Speaker 3: this mortgage interest deduction which you get, you know, I

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Speaker 3: call it public housing per homows, and we both point

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Speaker 3: this out. The amount that people get ridden off on

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Speaker 3: their taxes is greater than the entire amount that goes

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Speaker 3: to the Department of Housing and Urban Development. So for

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Speaker 3: actual public housing for poor people, it is significantly greater though.

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Speaker 1: By biroductor three. Right. Yeah, So like last year, we

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Speaker 1: spent about one hundred and ninety billion dollars on homeworner

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Speaker 1: tax subsidies. Most of that was accrued by families six

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Speaker 1: six figure incomes. Most white Americans are homeowners and most

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Speaker 1: Black and LATINX families are not. Because of our systematic

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Speaker 1: dispossession of people of color from the land and that

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Speaker 1: same year we only spend about fifty three billion dollars

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Speaker 1: on direct housing assistance to the needy. So you're right,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's hard to think of a policy that

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Speaker 1: does a better job of amplifying our economic and racial

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Speaker 1: inequality than our housing policy does.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So I'm going to imagine myself right now in

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Speaker 2: this conversation as a public policy wonk who comes out

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Speaker 2: of the conservative side of the equation. So, why isn't

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Speaker 2: it the case that people who have earned their money

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Speaker 2: and bought a home and are already being taxed by

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Speaker 2: state and local governments entitled to receive a portion of

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Speaker 2: their investment in the community back, unlike people who haven't

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Speaker 2: worked hard enough to do the same thing and now

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Speaker 2: need a handout from the government in the form of

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Speaker 2: a voucher for housing or for access to a public

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Speaker 2: housing apartment.

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Speaker 1: So I think that we should want to live in

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Speaker 1: a country that rewards hard work, and I think that

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Speaker 1: no one's arguing that it shouldn't be rewarded. The mortgage

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Speaker 1: interes seduction doesn't do anything to help people get into

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Speaker 1: home ownership. It just makes homes more valuable than they

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Speaker 1: should be. Home ownership doesn't lead to financial security, leads

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Speaker 1: to more financial security, and in part because it's massively

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Speaker 1: government subsidized. I think it's really hard to look at

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Speaker 1: folks that can't stand up straight because they've been picking

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Speaker 1: our berries for years, in years of years, or you know,

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Speaker 1: maids with chemical burdens on their arms, and tell them

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Speaker 1: to work harder and work more. I think there's so

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Speaker 1: many people working and working and working below the poverty

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Speaker 1: line and can't get ahead. And one of the reasons

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Speaker 1: they can't get ahead is because we as a nation

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Speaker 1: are spending so much more on families that don't need

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Speaker 1: our help.

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Speaker 2: M wow, Yeah, that was that was really tough playing

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Speaker 2: that guy. So, so what you're saying, so what you.

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Speaker 3: So?

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Speaker 2: So what you're what you're saying is the people who

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Speaker 2: can actually afford to buy a home should just pay

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Speaker 2: for the cost of their home period And why should

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Speaker 2: we give them money back?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? I mean, and if there wasn't like an eviction crisis,

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Speaker 1: if we weren't facing a housing crisis of like historic proportions,

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Speaker 1: if most poor renting families then it's been at least

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Speaker 1: half of their income on housing costs, I don't think

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Speaker 1: i'd lose a lot of sleep at night right over

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Speaker 1: the mortgage just production. But that's not the American we

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Speaker 1: live in. We live in America where we got over

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Speaker 1: a million homeless public school kids, right, where an eviction

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Speaker 1: goes out every seven seconds, you know, where one in

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Speaker 1: four families below the poverty line who are renting or

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Speaker 1: paying over seventy percent of their income on housing costs. Right,

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Speaker 1: and we have public housing waiting lists that are stretching

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Speaker 1: into decades, right, not years, decades. And so then we

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Speaker 1: run into this normal and I khalil, you hear this

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Speaker 1: all the time, the house of the Kennedy School, this boring, pernicious, like, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, how can we afford it? How can we

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Speaker 1: afford to do more?

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Speaker 2: And for me can help these people make better choices?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the other that's the other part of it.

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Speaker 1: By the way. Yeah, by the way, no one's asking

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Speaker 1: me what I'm doing with my mortgage intra seduction savings, right,

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Speaker 1: No one's up in my business. No one's asking me

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Speaker 1: if I'm drinking it or smoking it, you know, or

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Speaker 1: if I'm going to Vegas with it. But you know,

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Speaker 1: the level of scrutiny over over these kind of benefits

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Speaker 1: for the very poorest families. Just should I think should

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Speaker 1: trive us a shame.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I just want to add one more point

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Speaker 2: to this, and that is that we pretend that we

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Speaker 2: live in a world that the economic system known as

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Speaker 2: capitalism isn't by definition a pyramid scheme where most people

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Speaker 2: will work at the bottom of this economic system in

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Speaker 2: order to do the things, provide the services, make the

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Speaker 2: goods that we all need to live off on, literally

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Speaker 2: to harvest the fruits and vegetables that we eat, to

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Speaker 2: mill the timber that builds our homes, to drive the

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Speaker 2: buses for those of us who do take public transportation,

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Speaker 2: or to get our kids to school. We pretend as

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Speaker 2: if the system isn't by definition dependent on those people.

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Speaker 2: And so you spend a lot of time in this

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Speaker 2: book actually talking about like, since we know we need

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Speaker 2: people to do these jobs, we ought to care enough

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Speaker 2: about them to have a decent quality of life that

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Speaker 2: we should not be exploiting them through our labor systems,

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Speaker 2: or exploiting them in the housing market, or exploiting them

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Speaker 2: in terms of banking and access to credit.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think we should use that word exploitation

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Speaker 1: for me, it's just like, look, I mean, we've all

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Speaker 1: been exploited, we've all been in a position where we

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Speaker 1: don't get a lot of choice, and you got to

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Speaker 1: you gotta pay the piper. You're stuck in a hotel

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Speaker 1: and you're going to pay you know, fifty ads for

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Speaker 1: breakfast or whatever. But that's that defines the lives of

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Speaker 1: the poor, right, just no choice and because of that,

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Speaker 1: having to accept a bad option, not because they didn't

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Speaker 1: make a financially wise decision, but because there's no other

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Speaker 1: decision to be made, right, there's no other option on

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Speaker 1: the table. And for me, this point is really crucial

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Speaker 1: because the way we talk about poverty so much, it's

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Speaker 1: so abstract. Right, It's about policy, it's about history, it's

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Speaker 1: about structure, and I think we need to start talking

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Speaker 1: about it in really personal terms. I was given this

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Speaker 1: talk the other day and a lot of folks in

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Speaker 1: the audience were basically, well, what about them? What do

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Speaker 1: I do with my heart? Uncle?

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Speaker 3: You know?

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Speaker 1: What do we do with the Republican Party? What do

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Speaker 1: you know? And it's like, look, if we just if

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Speaker 1: we did the stuff in our own lives, I think

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Speaker 1: that would be enough. That would be a start.

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Speaker 3: So, yeah, a question I want to ask you, Matt,

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Speaker 3: because you know, this is an endemic problem for the

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Speaker 3: history of the United States, but it's got way way

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Speaker 3: worse than say, the last thirty years, and we have

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Speaker 3: the divide between rich and poor, the number of poor people.

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Speaker 3: What's happened in those last thirty years that has made

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Speaker 3: this much worse.

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Speaker 1: So this is give me a little give me a

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Speaker 1: little room on this question. So I think this is

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Speaker 1: a really super complicated question, and it's one that's it's

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Speaker 1: about a paradox. Then we got to lean into the paradox.

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Speaker 1: So here's the paradox. The paradox is, over the last

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Speaker 1: fifty years, the poverty rate, by a lot of measures

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Speaker 1: hasn't shown a lot of improvement. So you can look

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Speaker 1: at a poverty rate called the supplemental Poverty measure that

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Speaker 1: does a pretty good job of counting government spending but

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Speaker 1: also regional housing costs. You know, fifty years ago, in

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventy three, it was about fifteen percent right before

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Speaker 1: co with fifteen percent. Some years it went up, some

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Speaker 1: years went down, but not a ton of progress. And

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Speaker 1: the reason that's weird is because government spending on poverty

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Speaker 1: programs is actually increased by a lot over that time,

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Speaker 1: so increasing.

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Speaker 2: I know, that's really counterintuitive, and it's certainly a lot

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Speaker 2: of people I know have argued the opposite.

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Speaker 1: Right, and so, and it makes sense to argue the

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Speaker 1: opposite because it feels that if you don't, you're saying

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Speaker 1: those programs don't work. And that's not what I'm saying,

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Speaker 1: right emphatically, I'm saying, Gosh, those programs work. And there's

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Speaker 1: amount of evidence showing that housing systems, food systems are

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Speaker 1: just essential and effective, and yet poverty persists, and by

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Speaker 1: a lot of measures, been is right. You know, fiction

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Speaker 1: filings are up twenty two percent over the last twenty years,

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Speaker 1: and of our families visiting food pantries up nineteen percent

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Speaker 1: or last twenty years. So some very troubling signs on

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Speaker 1: the horizon. And for me, the way to reconcile this

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Speaker 1: paradox is to face the fact that the fundamentals of

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Speaker 1: American society are breaking down for long of families, especially

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Speaker 1: in the job market and in the housing market. So

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Speaker 1: real wages have declined. If you're a guy without a

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Speaker 1: college degree, you make less today than you would fifty

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Speaker 1: years ago. Adjusting for inflation.

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Speaker 3: There's been a total disintegration of unions, which accounts for

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Speaker 3: a bunch of the.

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Speaker 1: Huge point, right, And now our wages increase only about

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Speaker 1: point three percent a year in real terms, and so

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Speaker 1: that means the government is kind of having to spend

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Speaker 1: more to stay in the same place because our jobs

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Speaker 1: have got a lot a lot worse, and we haven't

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Speaker 1: addressed this kind of unrelenting exploitation of the poor in

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Speaker 1: the labor market. And so I think that that's an

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Speaker 1: incredibly important point because it leads to this realization that

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Speaker 1: we don't just need to turn the faucet on more.

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Speaker 1: We need deeper investments, but we also need different ones.

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Speaker 1: We need ways to address exploitation in the housing, financial

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Speaker 1: and labor markets.

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Speaker 3: Well, you also say, Matt, that the faucets are on,

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Speaker 3: but a large portion of subsidies for the poor don't

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Speaker 3: actually reach them. So so they're they're sort of on,

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Speaker 3: but they're spraying all over the place.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, nice, I like that a gossip drum or

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Speaker 1: or there's folks with their their their cups above the water.

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Speaker 1: Yeah in a way.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean.

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Speaker 1: That the story about welfare cash welfare tanaff temporary assistant

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Speaker 1: for needy families. This is like where it gets maddening, right,

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Speaker 1: because for every dollar budgeted for cash welfare, only twenty

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Speaker 1: two cents lands in the pocket of a poor family

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Speaker 1: because states do all sports. Yeah, it's crazy. And it's

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Speaker 1: not just a red state, blue state thing, right, it's

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Speaker 1: all over the country.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. You know why is that?

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Speaker 1: Well, the program is issued through something called the block ground,

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Speaker 1: as you know, and that's just a wonky way of saying, hey, states,

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Speaker 1: here's some money, use your discretion about how to spend it.

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Speaker 1: And man, they do, right, they spend ten f dollars

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Speaker 1: welfare dollars on Christian summer camps as in it's only training,

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Speaker 1: or they don't. They just don't spend it, you know.

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Speaker 1: Like Hawaii is sitting on so much unspent welfare money

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Speaker 1: they could give every kid in the state ten thousand

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Speaker 1: dollars below the poverty line. So what we're talking about,

435
00:23:13,396 --> 00:23:16,276
Speaker 1: right when we're talking about this, we're talking about there's

436
00:23:16,396 --> 00:23:19,396
Speaker 1: poor kids by the millions that aren't good enough to

437
00:23:19,436 --> 00:23:22,316
Speaker 1: eat because of this, right, Like, that's that's what we're

438
00:23:22,316 --> 00:23:24,876
Speaker 1: talking about, right, We're talking about And you both have

439
00:23:24,956 --> 00:23:26,836
Speaker 1: been to a viction court Man, it's just like we're

440
00:23:26,876 --> 00:23:30,316
Speaker 1: talking about. You walk into a viction court basically anywhere

441
00:23:30,316 --> 00:23:31,996
Speaker 1: in the country, and you see a ton of kids

442
00:23:32,116 --> 00:23:35,236
Speaker 1: running around, right, and so it's just like, you know,

443
00:23:35,356 --> 00:23:37,356
Speaker 1: this is that's what we're talking about when we're talking

444
00:23:37,356 --> 00:23:38,276
Speaker 1: about this kind of stuff.

445
00:23:38,796 --> 00:23:40,836
Speaker 3: Matt. You had said in Hawaii they could give ten

446
00:23:40,916 --> 00:23:43,276
Speaker 3: thousand dollars to each kid. They have so much They

447
00:23:43,276 --> 00:23:46,316
Speaker 3: have so much money for poverty saved up. We want

448
00:23:46,316 --> 00:23:48,236
Speaker 3: to take a quick break and talk more about that,

449
00:23:48,276 --> 00:24:10,036
Speaker 3: about solutions, and also about direct payments to people. We're

450
00:24:10,076 --> 00:24:12,196
Speaker 3: eager to talk to you and talk to one another

451
00:24:12,236 --> 00:24:16,636
Speaker 3: really about guaranteed income as a possible solution.

452
00:24:16,396 --> 00:24:19,196
Speaker 2: To also known as universal basic income.

453
00:24:19,756 --> 00:24:22,196
Speaker 3: Universal based income, which is the idea that you give

454
00:24:22,356 --> 00:24:26,996
Speaker 3: direct cash payments to people who qualify, and it's become

455
00:24:27,116 --> 00:24:30,156
Speaker 3: kind of popular. So Colorado just became the ninth state

456
00:24:30,476 --> 00:24:34,156
Speaker 3: with some form of guaranteed income, but numerous cities and

457
00:24:34,236 --> 00:24:36,916
Speaker 3: municipalities are already doing this, at least in sort of

458
00:24:36,956 --> 00:24:43,596
Speaker 3: like pilot programs. Chicago, Stockton, California, Newark, New Jersey, Gary, Indiana, Patterson,

459
00:24:43,596 --> 00:24:47,756
Speaker 3: New Jersey, Cambridge, San Francisco. It's all over the place,

460
00:24:48,236 --> 00:24:50,676
Speaker 3: and I want maybe the three of us can talk

461
00:24:50,716 --> 00:24:54,756
Speaker 3: about what works and what doesn't work about these direct payments,

462
00:24:54,796 --> 00:24:58,436
Speaker 3: about guaranteed income, and you know, what should we learn

463
00:24:58,476 --> 00:25:01,556
Speaker 3: about it in terms of combating the poverty problem.

464
00:25:01,916 --> 00:25:04,196
Speaker 2: And I'll just add, Matt as you as you gear

465
00:25:04,316 --> 00:25:07,556
Speaker 2: up for that, that I mean, we, you and me

466
00:25:07,716 --> 00:25:12,076
Speaker 2: come out of a social sigen in space where every

467
00:25:12,116 --> 00:25:14,916
Speaker 2: smart person, usually a guy in the room, usually a

468
00:25:14,916 --> 00:25:20,156
Speaker 2: white guy, has the perfect solution for our four hundred

469
00:25:20,196 --> 00:25:26,436
Speaker 2: year old problem. Right Like, there's no historical context, there's

470
00:25:26,436 --> 00:25:29,436
Speaker 2: no irrationality, you know, there's only like here it is

471
00:25:30,076 --> 00:25:32,796
Speaker 2: and you know I've done it, the random controlled trial

472
00:25:32,836 --> 00:25:34,596
Speaker 2: has proved it, so let's do it all right. So

473
00:25:35,516 --> 00:25:37,756
Speaker 2: this seems to me to at least be one of

474
00:25:37,796 --> 00:25:40,436
Speaker 2: these ideas that is happening in the country right now.

475
00:25:40,996 --> 00:25:44,676
Speaker 2: And I know, for example, here in Newark, Mayor ros

476
00:25:44,676 --> 00:25:48,116
Speaker 2: Baraka has been doing this for two years. He has

477
00:25:48,236 --> 00:25:52,036
Speaker 2: two hundred participants who receive two hundred and fifty dollars

478
00:25:52,036 --> 00:25:54,916
Speaker 2: bi weekly over two year period which will end soon

479
00:25:55,036 --> 00:25:58,476
Speaker 2: this September of twenty twenty three. Or another group of

480
00:25:58,516 --> 00:26:02,836
Speaker 2: two hundred participants who get three thousand dollars four times

481
00:26:02,996 --> 00:26:07,036
Speaker 2: over the past two years, so two different models of distribution,

482
00:26:07,516 --> 00:26:10,916
Speaker 2: two year period, four hundred people chosen by lottery. So

483
00:26:11,116 --> 00:26:14,196
Speaker 2: the results aren't in yet, but this is just one

484
00:26:14,236 --> 00:26:17,276
Speaker 2: example of many that been talked about. So what do

485
00:26:17,316 --> 00:26:18,036
Speaker 2: you think about this?

486
00:26:18,756 --> 00:26:21,796
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'd love to hear both of your takes on this.

487
00:26:21,916 --> 00:26:24,716
Speaker 1: I'll give you a on the pro side, and then

488
00:26:24,716 --> 00:26:27,036
Speaker 1: I'll give you some of my concerns or some caution

489
00:26:27,316 --> 00:26:29,796
Speaker 1: on the pro side. I think that during COVID, we

490
00:26:29,876 --> 00:26:34,716
Speaker 1: had this national experiment in universal basic income, actually through

491
00:26:34,716 --> 00:26:38,556
Speaker 1: the child tax Credit, right, So, child tax credit was huge.

492
00:26:39,116 --> 00:26:42,356
Speaker 1: It went out to tens of millions of families, both

493
00:26:42,396 --> 00:26:45,676
Speaker 1: middle and low income families received the credit. What are

494
00:26:45,756 --> 00:26:48,556
Speaker 1: it do at cut child poverty by forty six percent

495
00:26:48,676 --> 00:26:55,236
Speaker 1: in six months? Right? Six months? Yeah? Remarkable, remarkable, historic, incredible,

496
00:26:55,236 --> 00:26:57,996
Speaker 1: we had we had a different country for a moment there.

497
00:26:58,596 --> 00:27:02,356
Speaker 1: I think the lessons from the child Tax Credit with

498
00:27:02,396 --> 00:27:07,756
Speaker 1: respect to this conversation is lower the administrative burden, get

499
00:27:07,796 --> 00:27:09,876
Speaker 1: the checks out, get them out to a lot of folks,

500
00:27:10,276 --> 00:27:14,036
Speaker 1: and make the checks meaningful, you know, make the stipend meaningful.

501
00:27:14,076 --> 00:27:17,316
Speaker 1: One of the reasons I think we see from some

502
00:27:17,516 --> 00:27:21,876
Speaker 1: universal basic income experience fairly modest or you know, not

503
00:27:21,956 --> 00:27:24,716
Speaker 1: really great results is because it's too small. Amount of

504
00:27:24,756 --> 00:27:26,596
Speaker 1: money is too small, you know, poverty is too deep.

505
00:27:28,036 --> 00:27:31,756
Speaker 1: Child attack Shutter took it on boom massively good result.

506
00:27:32,676 --> 00:27:36,076
Speaker 1: The hesitation or one hesitation I have about guarantee cash income,

507
00:27:36,076 --> 00:27:39,036
Speaker 1: it's just it's often talked about is like the only

508
00:27:39,076 --> 00:27:41,876
Speaker 1: thing you need to do, you know. It's like, if

509
00:27:41,876 --> 00:27:45,756
Speaker 1: we just did this, and what we saw during COVID

510
00:27:45,876 --> 00:27:49,956
Speaker 1: wasn't just massive declines in poverty, but massive surgeons in rents.

511
00:27:50,156 --> 00:27:54,316
Speaker 1: Rents went up highest on record a nationwide. And so

512
00:27:54,756 --> 00:27:56,956
Speaker 1: I think maybe just because I'm a housing guy, come

513
00:27:56,996 --> 00:28:00,036
Speaker 1: at this often through through focusing on the housing crisis,

514
00:28:00,036 --> 00:28:03,676
Speaker 1: where it's like, if we don't figure out exploitation, if

515
00:28:03,676 --> 00:28:06,516
Speaker 1: we don't address that in all sorts of different realms,

516
00:28:06,836 --> 00:28:09,116
Speaker 1: then these kind of policies can be watered down pretty

517
00:28:09,196 --> 00:28:12,196
Speaker 1: quickly when markets catch up to the benefit, you know.

518
00:28:12,276 --> 00:28:15,076
Speaker 1: And so I think that you know, if we if

519
00:28:15,116 --> 00:28:17,636
Speaker 1: we want to approach you BA and guarantee basic income,

520
00:28:17,756 --> 00:28:20,636
Speaker 1: I would be totally down to have that conversation as

521
00:28:21,356 --> 00:28:23,716
Speaker 1: a piece of a piece of the menu, a piece

522
00:28:23,756 --> 00:28:25,716
Speaker 1: of the solution, but not the only solution.

523
00:28:26,196 --> 00:28:28,676
Speaker 3: Where are you guys, I've been very I've been very

524
00:28:28,716 --> 00:28:31,916
Speaker 3: interested in it because you know, the idea that we

525
00:28:31,956 --> 00:28:34,196
Speaker 3: have to change our values in some way, right like

526
00:28:34,556 --> 00:28:37,796
Speaker 3: we we have such backlash when it comes to any

527
00:28:37,836 --> 00:28:41,836
Speaker 3: program for the poor. And it's been interesting why UBI

528
00:28:42,036 --> 00:28:46,916
Speaker 3: sort of attracts a wider range of politics, you know,

529
00:28:47,036 --> 00:28:48,996
Speaker 3: so that it's you know, we have all these states

530
00:28:48,996 --> 00:28:51,476
Speaker 3: and cities doing it, and there's something I guess about

531
00:28:51,516 --> 00:28:54,236
Speaker 3: the universal aspect of it that it goes to everybody,

532
00:28:54,276 --> 00:28:56,716
Speaker 3: and so you know, everyone can benefit. And you point

533
00:28:56,716 --> 00:28:59,276
Speaker 3: this out mat in the book that that's also what

534
00:28:59,436 --> 00:29:03,116
Speaker 3: makes it somewhat untenable because or at least, you know,

535
00:29:03,916 --> 00:29:06,116
Speaker 3: it's not as productive as it could be because the

536
00:29:06,196 --> 00:29:08,116
Speaker 3: money is going to a lot of people that don't

537
00:29:08,156 --> 00:29:11,316
Speaker 3: need it, and that just you know, inflates the cost

538
00:29:11,356 --> 00:29:15,956
Speaker 3: so much. Khalil, have you thought about this about why

539
00:29:16,676 --> 00:29:19,636
Speaker 3: why guaranteed income is a little more palatable to people.

540
00:29:20,676 --> 00:29:24,436
Speaker 2: I'm not sure it is. I mean, my read on

541
00:29:24,476 --> 00:29:27,796
Speaker 2: the situation is that at the local level, mayors are

542
00:29:27,876 --> 00:29:31,796
Speaker 2: much more innovative and willing to experiment because they're much

543
00:29:31,836 --> 00:29:34,116
Speaker 2: more on the hook to their voters. They can't dog

544
00:29:34,156 --> 00:29:39,076
Speaker 2: whistle like governors. Can, and so they if they hear

545
00:29:39,996 --> 00:29:43,716
Speaker 2: by word of social scientists or the grapevine that there's

546
00:29:43,756 --> 00:29:46,156
Speaker 2: something out there that that seems to be working, they're

547
00:29:46,196 --> 00:29:48,396
Speaker 2: going to follow it. That's my take on it in

548
00:29:48,476 --> 00:29:53,476
Speaker 2: terms of its appeal. I'm more interested, though, in the

549
00:29:53,516 --> 00:29:55,676
Speaker 2: bigger issue, and this is an issue you keep coming

550
00:29:55,716 --> 00:29:59,956
Speaker 2: back to, whether it's UBI or whether it's the stimulus

551
00:30:00,036 --> 00:30:03,596
Speaker 2: checks that came with the COVID pandemic, is that we

552
00:30:04,196 --> 00:30:08,076
Speaker 2: have not chosen to solve for the fundamental problem of

553
00:30:08,116 --> 00:30:11,276
Speaker 2: poverty in the first place, and that most anti poverty

554
00:30:11,316 --> 00:30:17,436
Speaker 2: measures are essentially essentially plugging a hole in a leaky bucket.

555
00:30:18,116 --> 00:30:22,156
Speaker 2: So the extent to which we want to actually address

556
00:30:22,356 --> 00:30:25,596
Speaker 2: the big issues that create poverty in the first place,

557
00:30:26,276 --> 00:30:28,556
Speaker 2: UBI is probably not going to get us there.

558
00:30:29,196 --> 00:30:31,276
Speaker 3: But that's probably part of its appeal. Right, you can

559
00:30:31,356 --> 00:30:33,236
Speaker 3: just send checks and not have to do this other stuff.

560
00:30:33,236 --> 00:30:36,636
Speaker 1: I think that's right. It's almost like, you know, sometimes

561
00:30:36,636 --> 00:30:39,156
Speaker 1: you hear what about education, Could we educate our way

562
00:30:39,156 --> 00:30:43,396
Speaker 1: out of this? And I think we all care about education,

563
00:30:43,596 --> 00:30:46,036
Speaker 1: but you know, we can't. We can't. We've actually got

564
00:30:46,036 --> 00:30:48,596
Speaker 1: a lot more educated last fifty years and a lot

565
00:30:48,676 --> 00:30:52,196
Speaker 1: more unequal, but that argument has that similar kind of

566
00:30:52,196 --> 00:30:54,356
Speaker 1: appeal where it's kind of like you don't have to

567
00:30:54,436 --> 00:30:57,076
Speaker 1: change the terms of the debate. I would love the

568
00:30:57,156 --> 00:31:00,716
Speaker 1: UBI conversation to be more of a conversation about tax fairness.

569
00:31:01,036 --> 00:31:03,396
Speaker 1: You know, if we're actually going to go down this road,

570
00:31:03,796 --> 00:31:06,116
Speaker 1: we do need to pay for in a serious way.

571
00:31:06,556 --> 00:31:08,756
Speaker 1: And if we're losing over trillion dollars a year in

572
00:31:08,836 --> 00:31:12,196
Speaker 1: tax avoidance in evasion, which we are, then there's no

573
00:31:12,276 --> 00:31:15,316
Speaker 1: way we could do big, ambitious things like guaranteed basic income.

574
00:31:15,476 --> 00:31:19,756
Speaker 1: So I think there is a conversation amongst the UBI

575
00:31:19,876 --> 00:31:22,476
Speaker 1: crowd which just kind of doesn't care about that. You know,

576
00:31:22,516 --> 00:31:25,596
Speaker 1: it's like it's about modern monetary theory and it's about

577
00:31:25,596 --> 00:31:28,556
Speaker 1: who cares about the deficit. But I mean, if you're

578
00:31:28,596 --> 00:31:30,876
Speaker 1: balancing a budget, if you're in any kind of state, local,

579
00:31:30,916 --> 00:31:32,476
Speaker 1: federal government, you got to care about that.

580
00:31:33,116 --> 00:31:35,156
Speaker 3: I want to hit on something that you said just

581
00:31:35,196 --> 00:31:38,436
Speaker 3: a moment ago about about the stimulus packages during COVID

582
00:31:38,996 --> 00:31:42,476
Speaker 3: in the Cares Act, because this was like, this was

583
00:31:42,676 --> 00:31:45,676
Speaker 3: such a success story for big government. I mean, this

584
00:31:45,836 --> 00:31:49,316
Speaker 3: is incredible. There were three point three million people who

585
00:31:49,356 --> 00:31:53,756
Speaker 3: filed for unemployment and checks were sent out and it

586
00:31:53,796 --> 00:31:55,956
Speaker 3: was a it was a mix of things, as you say,

587
00:31:56,076 --> 00:31:59,396
Speaker 3: Like it wasn't just direct payments. It was also rental assistance.

588
00:31:59,436 --> 00:32:03,476
Speaker 3: There was also some child tax credits, and the child

589
00:32:03,556 --> 00:32:07,116
Speaker 3: poverty rate was cut in half. We had sixteen million

590
00:32:07,236 --> 00:32:11,516
Speaker 3: fewer people in poverty. That is like, you know, historic

591
00:32:11,676 --> 00:32:13,716
Speaker 3: in the United States. I mean, this is like new

592
00:32:13,756 --> 00:32:17,156
Speaker 3: Deal stuff. And the question, or like what I want

593
00:32:17,156 --> 00:32:20,476
Speaker 3: I've been thinking a lot about, is why even people

594
00:32:20,596 --> 00:32:24,436
Speaker 3: like us haven't been talking about this constantly. Why did

595
00:32:24,436 --> 00:32:26,596
Speaker 3: this sort of just like you know, peter out. And

596
00:32:26,796 --> 00:32:29,116
Speaker 3: I know, I know some of that is about inflation

597
00:32:29,276 --> 00:32:31,476
Speaker 3: and people are worried about like the price of eggs

598
00:32:31,636 --> 00:32:35,436
Speaker 3: and gasoline. But this has did not become a rallying

599
00:32:35,476 --> 00:32:39,036
Speaker 3: cry for the Democrats. This did not become an example

600
00:32:39,076 --> 00:32:41,276
Speaker 3: that people are pointing to. I mean, for a lot

601
00:32:41,316 --> 00:32:42,916
Speaker 3: of people who are listening to this, this will be

602
00:32:42,956 --> 00:32:45,716
Speaker 3: the first time that they've heard this. You know, what

603
00:32:45,756 --> 00:32:48,516
Speaker 3: does that even say about about the kind of hurdles

604
00:32:48,516 --> 00:32:52,156
Speaker 3: we have to overcome to to sort of engage any

605
00:32:52,196 --> 00:32:55,396
Speaker 3: of these programs have this huge, massive success in our

606
00:32:55,756 --> 00:32:58,076
Speaker 3: in recent years, in the last two or three years,

607
00:32:58,356 --> 00:32:59,676
Speaker 3: and that's not even a talking.

608
00:32:59,436 --> 00:33:01,836
Speaker 1: Aboutint I love the way that you asked the question

609
00:33:01,956 --> 00:33:04,636
Speaker 1: because you asked it about us, and I think that's

610
00:33:04,636 --> 00:33:07,276
Speaker 1: the exact way to ask the question. It's not just

611
00:33:07,316 --> 00:33:10,036
Speaker 1: about the other political party, and it's not just about

612
00:33:10,476 --> 00:33:15,236
Speaker 1: that one senator from West Virginia that voted the other way.

613
00:33:15,356 --> 00:33:17,916
Speaker 1: You know, it's about us, Like, did we pick up

614
00:33:17,956 --> 00:33:20,476
Speaker 1: the phone, you know, do we call our congress people.

615
00:33:20,676 --> 00:33:22,916
Speaker 1: We're we out in the streets about this, We're rewriting

616
00:33:23,036 --> 00:33:27,396
Speaker 1: editorials about this. And there was this passive silence from

617
00:33:27,436 --> 00:33:31,756
Speaker 1: the progressive left in America on this. I think that

618
00:33:31,916 --> 00:33:35,996
Speaker 1: diagnosing that problem is really, really key. I was with

619
00:33:36,316 --> 00:33:38,916
Speaker 1: Heather McGee a few weeks.

620
00:33:38,596 --> 00:33:41,476
Speaker 3: Ago, the author of the Some of Us author.

621
00:33:42,556 --> 00:33:46,756
Speaker 1: Beautiful thank you for the pro Yes, Yeah, and her

622
00:33:46,836 --> 00:33:51,196
Speaker 1: diagnosis was, you know, the progressive movement, especially among young people,

623
00:33:51,196 --> 00:33:55,116
Speaker 1: are really hesitant to throw Biden a bone because they

624
00:33:55,116 --> 00:33:57,236
Speaker 1: were hoping for a different kind of candidate, different kind

625
00:33:57,276 --> 00:34:03,196
Speaker 1: of policy. But in their silence, you know, all lawmakers

626
00:34:03,316 --> 00:34:06,916
Speaker 1: learn that they can spend a ton of political capital,

627
00:34:07,356 --> 00:34:10,276
Speaker 1: do all this good, and get not a lot of

628
00:34:10,316 --> 00:34:12,836
Speaker 1: returns from it, you know, in terms of political success,

629
00:34:13,436 --> 00:34:16,716
Speaker 1: And so poor families in the future are going to

630
00:34:16,796 --> 00:34:17,796
Speaker 1: pay for our silence.

631
00:34:18,636 --> 00:34:21,876
Speaker 2: And you know what's interesting on that point, Matt, I

632
00:34:21,916 --> 00:34:24,356
Speaker 2: have I have two I have one different opinion in

633
00:34:24,436 --> 00:34:29,716
Speaker 2: one to add to this failure of blaring the good

634
00:34:29,756 --> 00:34:34,196
Speaker 2: news of what happened with the COVID stimulus money and

635
00:34:34,236 --> 00:34:37,396
Speaker 2: its impact on lower and poverty. One is that I

636
00:34:37,476 --> 00:34:44,396
Speaker 2: actually think that the problem of inflation became an economic

637
00:34:44,516 --> 00:34:50,396
Speaker 2: political problem for the Democrats. And rather than saying young progressives,

638
00:34:50,396 --> 00:34:53,796
Speaker 2: who frankly don't think drive much news coverage, particularly in

639
00:34:53,796 --> 00:34:55,796
Speaker 2: the page of the New York Times of the Washington Post,

640
00:34:56,196 --> 00:35:00,116
Speaker 2: what does drive a lot of news coverage is median voters,

641
00:35:00,596 --> 00:35:04,156
Speaker 2: Democrats in particular, since Republican Party has gone all crazy

642
00:35:04,196 --> 00:35:05,956
Speaker 2: and so that's you know, it's a different kind of voter.

643
00:35:06,396 --> 00:35:10,156
Speaker 2: And for those median Democratic voters, not only is inflation real,

644
00:35:10,436 --> 00:35:14,636
Speaker 2: meaning their cost were driven up, but this question of

645
00:35:14,676 --> 00:35:16,676
Speaker 2: whether or not we need to get back to something

646
00:35:17,516 --> 00:35:21,756
Speaker 2: that was, like you know, Obama friendly, an economy that

647
00:35:21,796 --> 00:35:25,036
Speaker 2: worked then before Donald Trump and before all this COVID madness,

648
00:35:25,196 --> 00:35:28,596
Speaker 2: and in some ways inflation became the bugaboo of the

649
00:35:28,676 --> 00:35:31,516
Speaker 2: success of the stimulus package, whether or not we can

650
00:35:31,596 --> 00:35:34,596
Speaker 2: actually absorb inflation or not, which is a policy debate

651
00:35:35,836 --> 00:35:38,836
Speaker 2: separate from this. I think that's what went wrong. That

652
00:35:39,556 --> 00:35:44,916
Speaker 2: political liability and risk to what carrying the water for

653
00:35:44,996 --> 00:35:47,956
Speaker 2: inflation during this moment, I think contributed to the lack

654
00:35:48,036 --> 00:35:51,356
Speaker 2: of like celebrating the stimulus packages and Khalid.

655
00:35:51,396 --> 00:35:54,316
Speaker 3: That's inherent to the democratic message. What you just said

656
00:35:54,516 --> 00:35:57,276
Speaker 3: that if you think of Biden or Obama, they're always

657
00:35:57,276 --> 00:36:01,036
Speaker 3: speaking to the middle class, right, and inflation is a

658
00:36:01,076 --> 00:36:05,276
Speaker 3: middle class problem. They don't want to speak about poor people.

659
00:36:05,476 --> 00:36:08,356
Speaker 3: They don't say these tax cuts will benefit the poor.

660
00:36:08,716 --> 00:36:11,916
Speaker 3: And when you talk like that for thirty years, you know,

661
00:36:12,356 --> 00:36:15,156
Speaker 3: then then an issue like this comes up, a success story,

662
00:36:15,156 --> 00:36:17,676
Speaker 3: and you can't own it because they haven't. They don't

663
00:36:17,716 --> 00:36:20,676
Speaker 3: have that language. They're gonna always focus on the middle class.

664
00:36:20,996 --> 00:36:23,356
Speaker 3: And it's like it's like they shot themselves in the

665
00:36:23,356 --> 00:36:24,836
Speaker 3: foot as they're as they're doing this.

666
00:36:25,756 --> 00:36:28,916
Speaker 1: I think that you're right that that that narrative shifted.

667
00:36:29,156 --> 00:36:31,076
Speaker 1: I think that's that's a huge part of it. You

668
00:36:31,116 --> 00:36:32,236
Speaker 1: had a second point too.

669
00:36:32,156 --> 00:36:35,276
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. The second point which gets me also

670
00:36:35,356 --> 00:36:38,476
Speaker 2: to a kind of term you adopt. So the second

671
00:36:38,516 --> 00:36:41,756
Speaker 2: point is that I think we live in a country

672
00:36:42,076 --> 00:36:47,316
Speaker 2: where everyone is socialized to despise poor people, including poor

673
00:36:47,356 --> 00:36:56,636
Speaker 2: people that they the politics of on deserving, this of individualism,

674
00:36:57,156 --> 00:37:01,636
Speaker 2: of meritocracy, of what we used to call social Darwinism,

675
00:37:01,916 --> 00:37:04,676
Speaker 2: which is a version of basically saying, you know, if

676
00:37:04,676 --> 00:37:08,196
Speaker 2: you're poor, you you deserve to be poor because you're

677
00:37:08,236 --> 00:37:11,956
Speaker 2: not good enough to either biologically, culturally fill in the blank.

678
00:37:12,716 --> 00:37:15,956
Speaker 2: And I think that spirit is alive and well in America.

679
00:37:15,996 --> 00:37:18,556
Speaker 2: I think it has been cultivated since Reagan took office

680
00:37:18,996 --> 00:37:22,476
Speaker 2: after the nineteen sixties, which was an exceptional period for

681
00:37:22,636 --> 00:37:26,036
Speaker 2: redefining our values, even if we didn't fully get there.

682
00:37:26,716 --> 00:37:30,396
Speaker 2: And I will say, in my own social networks, and

683
00:37:30,436 --> 00:37:33,196
Speaker 2: I'm not going to name any names, I heard more

684
00:37:33,236 --> 00:37:36,236
Speaker 2: than a few stories of people saying, yeah, you know,

685
00:37:36,316 --> 00:37:38,996
Speaker 2: look at those poor people getting those checks and look

686
00:37:38,996 --> 00:37:41,796
Speaker 2: at what they're doing with that money. Whether it was

687
00:37:41,876 --> 00:37:46,036
Speaker 2: true or not, it didn't matter. What mattered is that

688
00:37:46,236 --> 00:37:49,636
Speaker 2: poor people are not to be trusted, they're not good people,

689
00:37:50,396 --> 00:37:54,916
Speaker 2: and we should we shouldn't encourage the dependency that comes

690
00:37:54,916 --> 00:37:57,676
Speaker 2: with it. These are all things that every American listening

691
00:37:57,716 --> 00:38:02,436
Speaker 2: to me right now knows fully well. But being honest

692
00:38:02,476 --> 00:38:07,276
Speaker 2: about the scale of that sentiment, that ideology that exists

693
00:38:07,276 --> 00:38:10,356
Speaker 2: in our society. I think is a problem that your

694
00:38:10,396 --> 00:38:13,556
Speaker 2: book tries to address by giving a new term, at

695
00:38:13,636 --> 00:38:17,436
Speaker 2: least to yourself, this notion of a poverty abolitionist, this

696
00:38:17,516 --> 00:38:20,996
Speaker 2: idea that listen, we actually have to commit ourselves to

697
00:38:21,076 --> 00:38:22,956
Speaker 2: ending poverty and it's not going to be solved by

698
00:38:22,996 --> 00:38:24,036
Speaker 2: fixing poor people.

699
00:38:24,396 --> 00:38:27,236
Speaker 1: Right. There's this line in the book by Tommy ORNs,

700
00:38:27,236 --> 00:38:30,236
Speaker 1: the novelist that I just love, where he says, these

701
00:38:30,316 --> 00:38:32,476
Speaker 1: kids are jumping out of the windows of burning buildings,

702
00:38:32,516 --> 00:38:34,956
Speaker 1: falling to their deaths, and we think that the problem

703
00:38:35,116 --> 00:38:40,436
Speaker 1: is that they're jumping, and we have to find ways

704
00:38:40,476 --> 00:38:43,436
Speaker 1: of telling the story about the fire. You know, who

705
00:38:43,476 --> 00:38:46,956
Speaker 1: lit it, who's warming their hands by it. And I

706
00:38:46,996 --> 00:38:49,716
Speaker 1: think we have to have this reflex where every time

707
00:38:49,836 --> 00:38:53,556
Speaker 1: someone goes down that road, or goes down the scarcity

708
00:38:53,596 --> 00:38:56,076
Speaker 1: mindset road, the idea that we can't afford to do more.

709
00:38:56,676 --> 00:38:59,236
Speaker 1: I think we just have to have this narrative, rhetorical

710
00:38:59,356 --> 00:39:03,796
Speaker 1: reflex we're pushing back constantly, and for me, the idea

711
00:39:03,796 --> 00:39:08,596
Speaker 1: of a poverty abolitionism is a conviction, a commitment that

712
00:39:08,676 --> 00:39:12,796
Speaker 1: shares with other abolitionist movements, the belief that poverty is

713
00:39:12,796 --> 00:39:15,916
Speaker 1: an abomination. It's not something we have to live with.

714
00:39:16,036 --> 00:39:18,916
Speaker 1: It's not something that we should want to reduce, it's

715
00:39:18,916 --> 00:39:21,716
Speaker 1: something we should want to end. And I think that

716
00:39:21,796 --> 00:39:24,716
Speaker 1: it shares with other abolitionist movements, like the movement to

717
00:39:24,756 --> 00:39:28,836
Speaker 1: abolished lavery of the prison, the recognition that profiting from

718
00:39:28,876 --> 00:39:33,356
Speaker 1: someone else's paying corrupts all of us. And I think

719
00:39:33,396 --> 00:39:35,876
Speaker 1: that when we take this on as an identity, it

720
00:39:35,996 --> 00:39:40,396
Speaker 1: becomes personal and political. It means shopping differently, investing differently,

721
00:39:40,476 --> 00:39:44,556
Speaker 1: living differently, flexing our influence and wherever we have it

722
00:39:45,236 --> 00:39:48,396
Speaker 1: in the spirit of divesting from poverty. And I think

723
00:39:48,476 --> 00:39:52,036
Speaker 1: that this is kind of how we change the common sense.

724
00:39:52,156 --> 00:39:54,356
Speaker 1: But we all have to have some skin in the game,

725
00:39:54,436 --> 00:39:56,956
Speaker 1: I think, and not just keep kicking the can down

726
00:39:56,996 --> 00:40:00,276
Speaker 1: the road and putting it on whoever that uncle that

727
00:40:00,316 --> 00:40:02,876
Speaker 1: comes to Thanksgiving, or that one relative or the guy

728
00:40:02,876 --> 00:40:05,236
Speaker 1: down the hall or the other political party, that start

729
00:40:05,316 --> 00:40:07,596
Speaker 1: really taking some ownership over this in our own lives.

730
00:40:09,716 --> 00:40:09,916
Speaker 3: Yeah.

731
00:40:09,996 --> 00:40:13,916
Speaker 2: You use this term by Seawright Mills along the way

732
00:40:14,276 --> 00:40:17,356
Speaker 2: that you call that he coined, and you use here

733
00:40:17,436 --> 00:40:22,796
Speaker 2: structural immorality that fundamentally we have a society that was

734
00:40:22,836 --> 00:40:26,796
Speaker 2: built on immoral premises. You know, we don't have to

735
00:40:26,796 --> 00:40:29,316
Speaker 2: go down the road of the indigenous land that was

736
00:40:29,316 --> 00:40:32,836
Speaker 2: stolen or the enslaved bodies, but that the ongoing way

737
00:40:33,116 --> 00:40:36,036
Speaker 2: in which freedom in America also means the freedom to exploit,

738
00:40:36,116 --> 00:40:38,596
Speaker 2: to take as much as possible, and then to blame

739
00:40:38,676 --> 00:40:41,916
Speaker 2: people for their own misery as a result of that process.

740
00:40:42,316 --> 00:40:44,116
Speaker 2: You even use the term at some point you're like,

741
00:40:44,476 --> 00:40:48,676
Speaker 2: if this isn't gas lighting, I don't know what it is, right.

742
00:40:48,516 --> 00:40:50,436
Speaker 1: Right, And a lot of us just just trying to

743
00:40:50,516 --> 00:40:55,676
Speaker 1: live find ourselves morally compromised traditions and relationships, right, And

744
00:40:55,756 --> 00:40:58,516
Speaker 1: so I think that I love this term structural immorality

745
00:40:58,596 --> 00:41:02,516
Speaker 1: because it recognizes that, like, look, you know, this is

746
00:41:02,556 --> 00:41:05,076
Speaker 1: hard for all of us. We're all kind of hard

747
00:41:05,076 --> 00:41:07,356
Speaker 1: in us. But we can start investing day by day.

748
00:41:07,756 --> 00:41:10,036
Speaker 1: And so I think that finding ways to personalize this,

749
00:41:10,196 --> 00:41:13,876
Speaker 1: I feel like it's important for building that political will.

750
00:41:13,916 --> 00:41:17,276
Speaker 2: Listen, you make really clear here in this book that

751
00:41:18,276 --> 00:41:24,116
Speaker 2: the cost of solving poverty, of ending poverty, of abolishing

752
00:41:24,156 --> 00:41:28,076
Speaker 2: poverty means that we all have to bear some cost

753
00:41:28,156 --> 00:41:31,396
Speaker 2: for doing that, and all of this bs in our

754
00:41:32,276 --> 00:41:35,236
Speaker 2: talking points that we hear in the public policy debate.

755
00:41:35,276 --> 00:41:38,676
Speaker 2: We all win with equity, we all win. Everybody can

756
00:41:38,716 --> 00:41:43,196
Speaker 2: be rich is bullshit. It is bullshit. In order for

757
00:41:43,716 --> 00:41:46,236
Speaker 2: the people living in East Hoorn next to me, which

758
00:41:46,276 --> 00:41:48,916
Speaker 2: is on average a more working class community than the

759
00:41:48,956 --> 00:41:52,996
Speaker 2: affluence South Orange that I live in, either my taxes

760
00:41:52,996 --> 00:41:54,876
Speaker 2: are going to have to go up to help subsidize

761
00:41:54,876 --> 00:41:58,036
Speaker 2: their needs, or the price of my home is going

762
00:41:58,116 --> 00:41:59,756
Speaker 2: to have to come down so that more of them

763
00:41:59,796 --> 00:42:03,036
Speaker 2: can afford to live in this community, either through single

764
00:42:03,076 --> 00:42:08,116
Speaker 2: family units or affordable housing. Either way, something has to change,

765
00:42:08,196 --> 00:42:10,196
Speaker 2: and I'm going to have to give up something in

766
00:42:10,276 --> 00:42:13,036
Speaker 2: order for that change to happen. I just want to

767
00:42:13,196 --> 00:42:18,116
Speaker 2: end this conversation with that recognition, because we cannot keep

768
00:42:18,156 --> 00:42:21,996
Speaker 2: believing that solving for an economic system built for exploitation

769
00:42:22,196 --> 00:42:24,796
Speaker 2: means that we can all be good people and bear

770
00:42:24,876 --> 00:42:26,716
Speaker 2: no burden or cost for change.

771
00:42:28,796 --> 00:42:32,516
Speaker 1: Right. I think that those of us that have found

772
00:42:32,596 --> 00:42:35,436
Speaker 1: economic security and privilege will have to take less from

773
00:42:35,436 --> 00:42:39,676
Speaker 1: the government. We will have to start benefiting less from

774
00:42:39,836 --> 00:42:42,956
Speaker 1: government largess. But what we get from that bargain is

775
00:42:42,996 --> 00:42:47,076
Speaker 1: a better country. We get a safer country, we get

776
00:42:47,076 --> 00:42:49,956
Speaker 1: a healthier country, we get a freer country. We get

777
00:42:49,956 --> 00:42:51,716
Speaker 1: a country where we don't have to worry about our

778
00:42:51,756 --> 00:42:55,236
Speaker 1: kids so much. We get a country that lives up

779
00:42:55,236 --> 00:42:59,076
Speaker 1: to its stated values and its higher his highest angels,

780
00:42:59,196 --> 00:43:02,916
Speaker 1: you know, in highest values. So I think that you're right.

781
00:43:03,156 --> 00:43:09,476
Speaker 1: It is a lie to swallow these everyone and wins arguments.

782
00:43:09,956 --> 00:43:13,556
Speaker 1: But I do think that there are costs that we're

783
00:43:13,636 --> 00:43:17,476
Speaker 1: bearing now as a country by tolerating all this desperation

784
00:43:17,596 --> 00:43:20,796
Speaker 1: and depravity around us. And there's going to be cost

785
00:43:20,836 --> 00:43:24,556
Speaker 1: to unwinding ourselves from the addiction of poverty. But those

786
00:43:24,596 --> 00:43:26,596
Speaker 1: are the costs that I'm totally willing to bear. I

787
00:43:26,636 --> 00:43:28,316
Speaker 1: want to live in that country.

788
00:43:30,116 --> 00:43:34,436
Speaker 3: Matt. You are so intelligent, and you're also so thoughtful

789
00:43:34,476 --> 00:43:36,436
Speaker 3: and caring. I mean, it's a thing that I think

790
00:43:36,516 --> 00:43:39,676
Speaker 3: is in It's rare and amazing, and it comes through

791
00:43:39,996 --> 00:43:42,356
Speaker 3: in your writing and it obviously comes through and speaking

792
00:43:42,356 --> 00:43:42,596
Speaker 3: with you.

793
00:43:42,756 --> 00:43:45,956
Speaker 1: So thank you well your work and Khalil's your work

794
00:43:45,996 --> 00:43:47,636
Speaker 1: has meant so much to me over the years, and

795
00:43:47,676 --> 00:43:50,516
Speaker 1: your friendship and collegialship, and thank you so much for

796
00:43:50,556 --> 00:43:54,036
Speaker 1: everything you do out in the world. So it's been

797
00:43:54,036 --> 00:43:56,196
Speaker 1: a real honor, you know, just to be in conversation

798
00:43:56,236 --> 00:43:57,636
Speaker 1: with you all, and I hope we can do it

799
00:43:57,636 --> 00:43:58,356
Speaker 1: in person soon.

800
00:43:59,316 --> 00:44:01,356
Speaker 2: Thanks so much Matt for joining us today on some

801
00:44:01,396 --> 00:44:12,876
Speaker 2: of our best friends are thanks us. What a good conversation.

802
00:44:13,236 --> 00:44:15,516
Speaker 2: I learned a lot man. But you know, Ben, something

803
00:44:15,556 --> 00:44:17,836
Speaker 2: that really struck me talking to him when he said

804
00:44:17,876 --> 00:44:21,036
Speaker 2: that a mobile home park owner makes four hundred thousand

805
00:44:21,076 --> 00:44:25,836
Speaker 2: dollars profit off of backs of poor people in Milwaukee, Like,

806
00:44:26,556 --> 00:44:28,756
Speaker 2: I was like, damn, that's that's a lot of bread

807
00:44:29,396 --> 00:44:33,596
Speaker 2: and it. You know, we often like think that people

808
00:44:33,956 --> 00:44:36,756
Speaker 2: who are renting these places are doing like public service,

809
00:44:36,876 --> 00:44:39,356
Speaker 2: you know, to some degree, because these are really shitty places,

810
00:44:39,396 --> 00:44:42,036
Speaker 2: whether it's a mobile home park or some slumlord in

811
00:44:42,076 --> 00:44:44,996
Speaker 2: the Bronx. But no, what he's really saying is that

812
00:44:45,356 --> 00:44:47,716
Speaker 2: they are holding the line on their costs to create

813
00:44:47,796 --> 00:44:50,036
Speaker 2: decent places of living so that they can make as

814
00:44:50,116 --> 00:44:52,316
Speaker 2: much money as possible off the poorest people.

815
00:44:52,676 --> 00:44:54,316
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, I mean this is the work that I've

816
00:44:54,356 --> 00:44:56,516
Speaker 3: done on housing too, and why we need government in

817
00:44:56,556 --> 00:44:59,356
Speaker 3: these roles because the private market is never going to

818
00:44:59,356 --> 00:45:01,756
Speaker 3: deliver this fairly. Yeah, that's what we learn over and

819
00:45:01,756 --> 00:45:02,556
Speaker 3: over and over again.

820
00:45:03,156 --> 00:45:06,436
Speaker 2: Yeah. And then government with like direct cash assistance, you know,

821
00:45:06,476 --> 00:45:08,916
Speaker 2: you end up with twenty two cents in the pocket

822
00:45:08,916 --> 00:45:12,756
Speaker 2: of poor person and the rich people are getting mortgage deductions.

823
00:45:12,996 --> 00:45:16,556
Speaker 2: It is so much so yeah.

824
00:45:15,516 --> 00:45:17,876
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean so for me and all of that.

825
00:45:17,996 --> 00:45:21,836
Speaker 3: Then hearing him talk about poverty abolition, which is not

826
00:45:21,956 --> 00:45:25,036
Speaker 3: something I had heard about before this book and before

827
00:45:25,076 --> 00:45:29,236
Speaker 3: this conversation, is like, I like that. It makes me

828
00:45:29,276 --> 00:45:31,636
Speaker 3: think about it in terms of prison abolition and about

829
00:45:31,636 --> 00:45:34,876
Speaker 3: mass incarceration, because when I think about mass incarceration, I

830
00:45:34,916 --> 00:45:37,756
Speaker 3: think about these fifty years and that we're living in

831
00:45:37,756 --> 00:45:42,556
Speaker 3: this status quo which is is not normal. It's an aberrations,

832
00:45:42,956 --> 00:45:48,036
Speaker 3: it's punishing, and we can't accept it as normal. And

833
00:45:48,076 --> 00:45:51,076
Speaker 3: that's what I think poverty abolition does too. Like the

834
00:45:51,116 --> 00:45:54,476
Speaker 3: way we're living now, we can't accept this, you know,

835
00:45:54,516 --> 00:45:56,876
Speaker 3: the air we're breathing, and so it is that kind

836
00:45:56,916 --> 00:46:00,076
Speaker 3: of call to action. It is involves all of us,

837
00:46:00,436 --> 00:46:02,756
Speaker 3: and so yeah, I think that phrase should be used more.

838
00:46:03,596 --> 00:46:05,996
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And you know, you just said something that

839
00:46:06,036 --> 00:46:07,756
Speaker 2: I hadn't thought about when we talked to Matt. But

840
00:46:07,796 --> 00:46:11,956
Speaker 2: it just echoes your point really clearly. The fact of

841
00:46:11,996 --> 00:46:15,476
Speaker 2: mass incarceration, as a lot of prison abolitionists will say,

842
00:46:15,756 --> 00:46:19,516
Speaker 2: is a consequence of the way that poor people were

843
00:46:19,556 --> 00:46:24,596
Speaker 2: abandoned by the state. Yea connected they're connected. Yeah, so

844
00:46:24,916 --> 00:46:30,156
Speaker 2: it's the right approach to solving both problems. So we

845
00:46:30,196 --> 00:46:32,356
Speaker 2: got work to do. I don't know about you, but

846
00:46:33,116 --> 00:46:36,596
Speaker 2: I'm on it. I am on it. First responder poverty, abolitionism,

847
00:46:36,996 --> 00:46:45,756
Speaker 2: signing me up, love you, Love you too. Some of

848
00:46:45,796 --> 00:46:48,996
Speaker 2: My Best Friends Are is a production of Pushkin Industries.

849
00:46:49,276 --> 00:46:52,076
Speaker 2: The show is written and hosted by me Khalil Dubron

850
00:46:52,156 --> 00:46:54,396
Speaker 2: Muhammad and my best friend Ben Austin.

851
00:46:54,596 --> 00:46:58,516
Speaker 3: It's produced by Lucy Sullivan. Our associate producer is Rachel Yang.

852
00:46:59,036 --> 00:47:02,316
Speaker 3: It's edited by Sarah Nicks with help from Keishel Williams.

853
00:47:02,636 --> 00:47:06,436
Speaker 3: Our engineer is Amanda ka Wang, and our managing producer

854
00:47:06,636 --> 00:47:08,996
Speaker 3: is Constanza Guyardot.

855
00:47:09,156 --> 00:47:14,716
Speaker 2: Pushkin thanks to Leital Mollad, Julia Barton, Heather Fain, Carly Migliori,

856
00:47:15,116 --> 00:47:18,756
Speaker 2: John schnarz Retta Cone, and Jacob Weisberg.

857
00:47:18,996 --> 00:47:22,756
Speaker 3: Our theme song, Little Lily, is by fellow chicagoan the

858
00:47:22,796 --> 00:47:26,716
Speaker 3: Brilliant Avery R. Young, from his album Tubman. You definitely

859
00:47:26,756 --> 00:47:29,756
Speaker 3: want to check out his music at his website Averyaryong

860
00:47:29,836 --> 00:47:30,516
Speaker 3: dot com.

861
00:47:30,596 --> 00:47:34,196
Speaker 2: You can find Pushkin on all social platforms at pushkin Pods,

862
00:47:34,556 --> 00:47:37,116
Speaker 2: and you can sign up for our newsletter at pushkin

863
00:47:37,196 --> 00:47:41,076
Speaker 2: dot Fm. To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the

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00:47:41,116 --> 00:47:45,076
Speaker 2: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you like to listen.

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Speaker 3: And if you like our show, please give us a

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00:47:47,676 --> 00:47:50,276
Speaker 3: five star rating and a review and listen. Even if

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Speaker 3: you don't like it, give it a five star rating

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00:47:51,956 --> 00:47:54,836
Speaker 3: and a review, and please tell all of your best

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Speaker 3: friends about it.

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Speaker 4: Thank you, it's so good to see you both wished

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Speaker 4: the podcast for like eight hours long.

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Speaker 3: I like that our editors would hate that.