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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from how Supports

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Speaker 1: dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen

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Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline, and we just want to offer a

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Speaker 1: little bit of a trigger warning at the top of

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Speaker 1: this podcast because we are going to be talking about

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Speaker 1: revenge porn and this could be triggering to people that

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Speaker 1: this might have happened to. We're also going to be

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Speaker 1: talking about things that you might not want younger listeners

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Speaker 1: to hear about at the moment, so just a heads

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Speaker 1: up on that. But we are talking about this because

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Speaker 1: it's such an important conversation to be having right now,

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Speaker 1: because it's looking at the intersection of things like sexual harassment,

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Speaker 1: agency over you know, women's bodies, Internet privacy, all of

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Speaker 1: these different things co mingling at this time right now.

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Speaker 1: So to kick things off, let's talk about revenge porn,

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Speaker 1: also known as cyber rape. Is yeah. This is basically

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Speaker 1: sexually explicit images and videos that are accessed through computer

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Speaker 1: or phone hacking, theft by computer repair people, false personal ads,

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Speaker 1: or more commonly posted or forwarded by jilted x is um.

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Speaker 1: It's used for the purpose of sexual humiliation, possibly shaming,

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Speaker 1: things like that, blackmail, even and involuntary porn is generally

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Speaker 1: posted online with the subject's real name and contact information. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there will often be links to these people's social media profiles,

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Speaker 1: and this kind of uh ideing of people is referred

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Speaker 1: to on the Internet as doxing. So if you hear

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Speaker 1: about doxing, uh that's that's what this isn't Doxing doesn't

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Speaker 1: always happen in terms of revenge porn, but is increasingly

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Speaker 1: one aspect of it, which makes it even more horrifying

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Speaker 1: because not only are your photos exposed or your videos exposed,

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Speaker 1: but harassment can then follow when people know who you

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Speaker 1: are and try to slander you in those ways. But

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Speaker 1: the precise statistics of how pervasive revenge porn is our

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Speaker 1: little tricky to come by, but we do know that

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Speaker 1: when it comes to people sending each other sexy, racy

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Speaker 1: nude picks and videos. According to data from the Pew

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Speaker 1: Research Center, nine percent of Americans with cell phones have

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Speaker 1: sent naked photos or videos, which is up actually from

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Speaker 1: six percent in two thousand twelve, and which is a

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Speaker 1: big jump. There have received a naked picture or video,

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Speaker 1: but of those, six percent have forwarded naked pictures or

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Speaker 1: videos to a third party. I am shaking my head

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Speaker 1: because how disgusting. It is disgusting. And I'll be completely

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Speaker 1: honest and say that I have witnessed this among guy

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Speaker 1: friends I've had. Well, there was one friend in particular

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Speaker 1: who was dating a girl for a while and they

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Speaker 1: broke up and we were hanging out one night and

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Speaker 1: he asked if I wanted to see a topless photo

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Speaker 1: of his ex, to which I said no, and why

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Speaker 1: would you even be offering me this? Yeah, this is horrifying. Um,

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Speaker 1: But there are also speaking of that exact situation of

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Speaker 1: breaking up with someone and then being in possession of

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Speaker 1: what some might think are compromising photos. In two thousand thirteen,

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Speaker 1: McAfee conducted a survey finding that approximately ten of ex

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Speaker 1: partners have threatened to post sexually explicit photos online, and

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Speaker 1: of those, six of those threats were followed through on Yeah. I, UM,

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Speaker 1: I don't know about you. I I feel like almost

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Speaker 1: every relationship that I've been in the guy at some

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Speaker 1: point asks for photos like this. And because of an

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Speaker 1: experien as I had when I was younger, which I

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Speaker 1: won't get into, I will never ever ever do that.

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Speaker 1: I have never agreed to to anything like this. Because

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Speaker 1: you don't know. You don't know. You could be dating

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Speaker 1: someone for ten years, you could be in love, you

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Speaker 1: could have freaking children and puppies and a house and everything.

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Speaker 1: You just don't know. If something will go wrong, that

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Speaker 1: person will snap, and you don't know who will end

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Speaker 1: up with those pictures. Even if your ex isn't vengeful

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Speaker 1: or crazy and doesn't do it, what if somebody gets

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Speaker 1: ahold of his phone? Yeah, because even more disconcerting is

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Speaker 1: the fact that there is clearly an appetite for revenge

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Speaker 1: porn on the internet. For instance, so called revenge porn

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Speaker 1: King a k a. The most hated man on the Internet,

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Speaker 1: a guy named Hunter Moore, who was in the news

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Speaker 1: recently because he was arrested his revenge porn site is

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Speaker 1: anyone Up, which is no longer in existence. Uh. He

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Speaker 1: reported that it was making thirteen thousand dollars a month.

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Speaker 1: I also saw twenty thousand dollars a month and another

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Speaker 1: off advertisements and had a mass around thirty million page views.

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Speaker 1: There was another revenge porn site involved in a clash

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Speaker 1: action suit, for instance, that had at least two fifty

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Speaker 1: different women's photos and attracted more than two thousand visitors

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Speaker 1: a day, right, and women are the main targets of

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Speaker 1: these kinds of sites. Men are absolutely on there too,

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Speaker 1: but women are the majority. University of Maryland law professor

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Speaker 1: Danielle Citron has studied the issue for her book on

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Speaker 1: Online Harassment Hate three point oh a civil rights agenda

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Speaker 1: to combat online harassment. She estimates that sixty of the

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Speaker 1: victims of online harassment, including revenge porn, are women, and

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Speaker 1: the abuse is often very sexualized. There are threats of rape,

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Speaker 1: their false prostitution ads, things like calling women sluts even

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Speaker 1: when the victim is a man. And when the victim

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Speaker 1: is a man, that language changes because what is the

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Speaker 1: purpose of of this malicious stuff if it's shaming, right,

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Speaker 1: shaming and embarrassing and humiliating the person. And so when

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Speaker 1: men are the targets and their pictures are posted, that

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Speaker 1: language does tend to revolve around homophobia, calling them gay

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Speaker 1: and and similarly there are also you know that the

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Speaker 1: sexually violent language is used against them, but usually in

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Speaker 1: terms of them wanting to have sex with other men

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Speaker 1: or be sex offenders. Just just horrific hate speech being

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Speaker 1: lobbed at these people. And not surprisingly, there are psychological repercussions.

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Speaker 1: This is one reason why revenge porn is sometimes referred

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Speaker 1: to as cyber rape, because for its victims, revenge porn

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Speaker 1: can trigger things like anxiety, disorder, post traum and extress

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Speaker 1: disorder and paranoia, not to mention the very real world havoc.

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Speaker 1: It can wreak on job prospects relationships because if you're

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Speaker 1: applying for a job or if you're in academia climbing

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Speaker 1: your way up through that, people google you. And if

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Speaker 1: your image and name and social media profile, all this

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Speaker 1: stuff is being used on revenge porn sites, that's what

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Speaker 1: pops up, right, And I mean it almost seems like

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Speaker 1: these kind of things, these sites are like the hydra.

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Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, you shut one down, but three more

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Speaker 1: are going to pop up in like Eastern Europe somewhere,

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Speaker 1: you know. Like it. It almost seems like the abuse

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Speaker 1: never stops because once someone post your picture and abuses

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Speaker 1: you that way, it's just going to spread. Yeah. And

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Speaker 1: to to get even more perspective on the impact of

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Speaker 1: revenge porn on those people whose images are being spread

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Speaker 1: around non consensually, in two thousand and eight, a Cyber

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Speaker 1: Civil Rights Initiative study found that over eight of revenge

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Speaker 1: porn victims experienced severe emotional distress and anxiety. And so

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Speaker 1: when did all of this start? I know that, uh,

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Speaker 1: I wanted to do an episode on revenge porn because

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Speaker 1: it's been in the news and on covered on lady

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Speaker 1: blogs more commonly, I feel like in the past two years.

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Speaker 1: But when did it start? When did how did this happen? Um? Well,

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Speaker 1: New York Mag's Alexa Sulis Ray in July traced it

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Speaker 1: back to the nineteen eighties because there was a Hustler

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Speaker 1: feature that asked for nude photos of women, UM with

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Speaker 1: info including their hobbies, their fantasies, and sometimes their real names. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and there was one instance. Uh there were actually many

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Speaker 1: women who complained to Hustler about this when they realized

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Speaker 1: that their photos were in there. And there was one

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Speaker 1: instance kind of like old school hacking, where the photos

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Speaker 1: that had been published had actually been stolen from a couple.

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Speaker 1: And Um, while it's terrible that Hustler did that, the

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Speaker 1: fact that it was a print magazine meant that there

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Speaker 1: were a finite number of those magazines with those photos.

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Speaker 1: Unlike the hydra effect of revenge porn, where even if

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Speaker 1: you can stop one site or get one site to

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Speaker 1: take your photos down. That doesn't mean it's gone right absolutely,

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Speaker 1: And so on the Internet you see in two thousand

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Speaker 1: Italian researcher Sergio Messina identifying an emergent genre he calls

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Speaker 1: real core pornography, and this was referring to photos and

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Speaker 1: videos of ex girlfriends in particular, initially shared on Usenet groups,

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Speaker 1: so kind of popping up more on message boards and

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Speaker 1: kind of Reddit esque I'm not saying it's on Reddit

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Speaker 1: Reddit esque sites. Yeah. And later in the two thousands

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Speaker 1: and two thousand eight you start to get websites and

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Speaker 1: blogs dedicated to the genre appearing and often mixing real

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Speaker 1: users submitted revenge worn with staged versions. Yeah. In two

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Speaker 1: thousand porn video aggraggator x tube was claiming that the

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Speaker 1: site was getting two to three complaints a week about

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Speaker 1: this kind of revenge porn popping up of people going

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Speaker 1: on and seeing oh wow, hi, that is that is

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Speaker 1: me on X two. Wasn't supposed to happen. But then

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Speaker 1: two thousand ten is really where I feel like it

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Speaker 1: starts to get a lot of national and global attention

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Speaker 1: because two things happen over in New Zealand, you have

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Speaker 1: a twenty year old house painter who is the first

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Speaker 1: person to go to prison for posting revenge porn on Facebook.

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Speaker 1: And Facebook, now, by the way, has extremely you know,

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Speaker 1: anti revenge porn policy obviously, and they've even they'll take

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Speaker 1: down any kinds of groups associated with it at all.

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Speaker 1: And then that same year you have Hunter More, the

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Speaker 1: most hated man on the Internet, launching is anyone up

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Speaker 1: dot com, which is I mean, that's really the source

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Speaker 1: of the main streaming, if you can call it main

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Speaker 1: streaming of revenge born. Yeah. Um, And that again was

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Speaker 1: featuring these women's pictures along with their names and identifying details,

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Speaker 1: and according to the Daily Dot within days the site

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Speaker 1: was getting twenty to thirty submissions per day. And so

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Speaker 1: I'm just like imagining these floodgates opening and all of

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Speaker 1: these angry people who hate women just just being like, oh, yeah, hooray,

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Speaker 1: I finally have a way to get my rage out there. Well,

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Speaker 1: and Hunter More is and I don't think I've probably

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Speaker 1: ever described someone like this on the podcast before. We

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Speaker 1: usually try to give people the benefit of the doubt,

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Speaker 1: but he's a vile human being because he explicitly says

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Speaker 1: that he is out to sexually shame especially women. I

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Speaker 1: mean that that's the whole point, and he thinks it's

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Speaker 1: hilarious and to the point where he wants to docks people.

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Speaker 1: He wants you know, their entire identities exposed non consensually,

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Speaker 1: and he wants to harass people. And the way that

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Speaker 1: is anyone up really became more well known was when

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Speaker 1: it actually was not revenge porn of a woman but

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Speaker 1: actually a guy I forget. He was in some like

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Speaker 1: old alternative band, but they got some crotch shots I

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Speaker 1: think of him, and it went viral on the Internet.

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Speaker 1: And that incident turned Hunter more into this gross anti

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Speaker 1: hero because he definitely has fans and women who are

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Speaker 1: fans of his, which I really don't understand, but he

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Speaker 1: in a large way is to blame for a lot

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Speaker 1: of revenge porn going on. Yeah, but around this time

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Speaker 1: you also have you know, thank you Internet, uh, the

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Speaker 1: rise of the creep shot, which is basically taking pictures

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Speaker 1: of women's crotches and breast without their consent and public

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Speaker 1: places like you know, doing those upskirt shots and posting

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Speaker 1: those all over the internet. Yeah, and there are just

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Speaker 1: discussed tips that have been passed around on Reddit. That

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Speaker 1: was the first place that I read about creepshots. Um,

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Speaker 1: and it's technically not porn, but it's still a blatant

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Speaker 1: violation of women's privacy. Yeah. Well, and I think this

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Speaker 1: just goes back to the fact that there are a

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Speaker 1: lot of I was gonna say people, but they're I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think there are a lot of men out there

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Speaker 1: who just don't think that women deserve their own not

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Speaker 1: only sphere of safety, but you know, just to be

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Speaker 1: a freaking person. Well, there's a lot of gross power

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Speaker 1: dynamics in revenge porn because it is very rapey, it

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Speaker 1: is harassing, and it is essentially deriving pleasure out of

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Speaker 1: other people's humiliation, right, And it's it's saying, you know, women, uh,

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Speaker 1: women who have had sex with me, obviously your slats

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Speaker 1: for having sex, even though I'm glad you had sex

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Speaker 1: with me, and I'm going to shame you for it, exactly.

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Speaker 1: Kire Cachet, though, writing over at The Guardian, had an

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Speaker 1: interesting theory about the rise of revenge porn and creepshots,

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Speaker 1: linking it to paparazzi culture, because if you think about

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Speaker 1: how rapid those photographers have become, particularly in pursuit of

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Speaker 1: photos of young actresses and compromising positions. I mean the

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Speaker 1: heyday of Paris Hilton and Lindsay Lohan and Britney Spears

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Speaker 1: going out and partying in those you know, infamous photos

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Speaker 1: of Britney's Spears getting out of a limousine not wearing

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Speaker 1: any underwear, being able to see it for skirt. I mean,

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Speaker 1: and and and they thrive. Those photos thrive. Yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: I mean. And the more recent example, obviously would be

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Speaker 1: Kate Middleton, who was photographed sunbathing topless on vacation. But

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Speaker 1: when you look at how far away her villa was

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Speaker 1: from the freaking road where the picture was taken, I mean,

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Speaker 1: she was sought after, and people were victim blaming her.

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Speaker 1: People we're saying like, oh, well, you know, you slut,

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Speaker 1: you shouldn't have been sunbathing with your shirt off, but

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Speaker 1: she was in a completely private home and who cares. Yeah, well, yes,

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Speaker 1: of course, and who cares? But this person, the photographer actually,

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Speaker 1: you know, went after her. Well. One name that comes

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Speaker 1: up a lot in articles on this topic is Marianne

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Speaker 1: Frank's and she's an associate professor of law at the

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Speaker 1: University of Miami and a cyber harassment expert, and she

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Speaker 1: spoke to the Guardian about this, and she said, what

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Speaker 1: unites creep shots, the Kate Middleton photographs, the revenge porn

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Speaker 1: websites is that they all feature the same fetishization of

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Speaker 1: non consensual sexual activity with women who either you don't

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Speaker 1: have access to or have been denied future access to.

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Speaker 1: And it's really this product of rage and entitlement. And

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Speaker 1: when I read that, I actually kind of sat back

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Speaker 1: in my chair for a minute because I don't know

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Speaker 1: if there's any better way to sum up the ickiness

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Speaker 1: around this, the feelings, the the general undercurrent of these images.

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Speaker 1: It's that rage and entitlement. Absolutely, and unfortunately a lot

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Speaker 1: of times when people hear about anecdotes, whether it's you know,

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Speaker 1: Kate Middleton having you know, those topless photos taken, or

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Speaker 1: women who have been the victims of revenge porn. Also

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Speaker 1: men who have been the victims of revenge porn. I

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Speaker 1: don't want to leave them entirely out of this conversation,

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Speaker 1: but a lot of times the response to it is, well,

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Speaker 1: you should have known better. It gets very victim blame me,

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Speaker 1: And I'm going to acknowledge publicly on this podcast that

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Speaker 1: I have been guilty of that before, as well of

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Speaker 1: thinking well, why did you Why would you possibly ever

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Speaker 1: send someone a topless photo or naked photo or any

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Speaker 1: kind of pornographic image of yourself in this day and age,

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Speaker 1: shouldn't you know better? But I was just so I

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Speaker 1: hate that I did that because us reading about it,

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Speaker 1: I realize now how completely victim blame me. That is

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Speaker 1: because if you are in a loving and committed relationship

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Speaker 1: with someone, and you know what, even if you're not,

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Speaker 1: even if you're just having sex with somebody, there is

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Speaker 1: that implicit understanding you would think that what happens between

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Speaker 1: when you have sex with someone, you probably aren't having

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Speaker 1: sex in front of a crowd of people. So similarly,

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Speaker 1: when you if you were to send a sex of

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Speaker 1: some sort, there is that implicit understanding that you're not

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Speaker 1: sending it to a crowd of people, right, You're sending

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Speaker 1: it to one person, and you want as a human being,

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Speaker 1: you want to trust other human beings. And I think

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Speaker 1: the fact is, and I totally meant to having these

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Speaker 1: thoughts too, why would she ever send that? Why would

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Speaker 1: she even take the picture and have it on her

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Speaker 1: own personal phone? I mean, but there is that that um,

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Speaker 1: that unfortunate truth, which is that the Internet is not yours.

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Speaker 1: You don't have your own personal Internet, it's not faithe

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Speaker 1: and sometimes you can't trust people. And so I mean,

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Speaker 1: the question should not be should women be taking these photos?

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Speaker 1: Shouldn't we be talking more about why are other people

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Speaker 1: men strangers? Why are they breaking this trust and sending

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Speaker 1: the photos out? And it's not just men to who

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Speaker 1: will forward on these kinds of messages. There is plenty

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Speaker 1: of similar slut shaming that women fuel to other women

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Speaker 1: as well. And I mean a lot of this conversation

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Speaker 1: about the legalities around revenge born or the illegalities around it.

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Speaker 1: And also this victim blaming response revolves too around the

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Speaker 1: fact that a lot of the photos and question are selfies,

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Speaker 1: their women taking them of theirselves or guys taking them

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Speaker 1: of themselves. And uh, it's the same kind of thing

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Speaker 1: of telling a sexual assault victim, well, why would you

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Speaker 1: dress like that? And that selfie issue of it being

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Speaker 1: a woman willingly being in a state of undress and

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Speaker 1: capturing that image is used again and again and again

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Speaker 1: to undercut the validity of you know, the the psychological

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Speaker 1: and real world repercussions, negative repercussions of revenge porn and

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Speaker 1: just saying well, you know what, you shouldn't shouldn't have

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Speaker 1: done that. You shouldn't have done that to the women,

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Speaker 1: not to hunter more. Yeah, well we know he definitely

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Speaker 1: shouldn't have done that. But the good news, and yes,

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Speaker 1: there is good news to this conversation, is that as

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Speaker 1: this is becoming more of a higher profile issue, there

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Speaker 1: has been a lot of legal conversation around it, and

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Speaker 1: a lot to a growing number of revenge porn targets

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Speaker 1: victims however you want to call it, who are taking

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Speaker 1: back the power to create some kind of workable solution

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Speaker 1: to this growing issue. And we're going to talk about

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Speaker 1: that when we come right back from a quick break.

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Speaker 1: So when we left off, we were talking about the

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Speaker 1: whole victim blaming aspect of revenge porn and how so

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Speaker 1: many people say, well, the woman or or the man

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Speaker 1: never should have taken these photos, when really we should

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Speaker 1: be asking the question why are people posting these photos

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Speaker 1: on the internet for strangers to see? Um? And I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know a lot of these incidents will drive the

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Speaker 1: victims to hide, change their names, moved to a different

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Speaker 1: city because it essentially ruins their lives. Yeah, because you've

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Speaker 1: got to remember that that dock sing often happens alongside it.

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Speaker 1: So people find out where you live, where you work,

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Speaker 1: what you you know, do on the weekends via your

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Speaker 1: Facebook profile. Um. But as we said, there is good

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Speaker 1: ish news um in this conversation, which is that there

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Speaker 1: are people who are making it their mission to figure

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Speaker 1: out a way to, if not stop it, to gonnaize

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Speaker 1: it because it is, I mean a lot of it

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Speaker 1: is criminal activity when when you think about the harm

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Speaker 1: that is often wrought. And one woman who has really

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Speaker 1: come to the forefront of this was a victim of

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Speaker 1: revenge porn. Her name is Holly Jacobs. She actually changed

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Speaker 1: her name to Holly Jacob's due to the fact that

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Speaker 1: her Google identity is completely smeared by revenge porn and

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Speaker 1: she really wouldn't be able to live have a professional

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Speaker 1: identity outside of naked photos of herself. And it's all

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Speaker 1: started when she had been dating a guy for a

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Speaker 1: while and they were a long distance for two and

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Speaker 1: a half years, and over the course of that time,

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Speaker 1: she amassed and he amassed a collection of you know,

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Speaker 1: sexually explicit photos and videos that they would send to

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Speaker 1: each other's away to kind of bridge that long distance gap.

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Speaker 1: And after they broke up, she thought that everything was fine,

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Speaker 1: that it was amicable, and then all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: one day, her friend frantically calls her, sing, you need

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Speaker 1: to check your Facebook account because someone changed your profile

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Speaker 1: picture to a nude photo of you. And this is

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Speaker 1: happening in two thousand and eight, And all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: you know, even though she was able to change the

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Speaker 1: Facebook picture, more than a dozen photos of her had

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Speaker 1: landed on various porn sites and this, you know, And

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Speaker 1: so she works to get all of them taken down.

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Speaker 1: She thinks everything's totally kosher. But then in two thousand,

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Speaker 1: eleven years later, she receives an anonymous email that linked

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Speaker 1: to a U r L she had never seen before,

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Speaker 1: and there again it had started with more photos of

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Speaker 1: her linking to her Facebook profile, email address, phone number,

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Speaker 1: and even information about where she worked. Yeah, and so

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Speaker 1: she's also getting harassed during this time, obviously, I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know, the person posted all of her personal information.

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Speaker 1: So she's getting harassed by strangers. And by the time

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Speaker 1: that site was shut down, her her pictures have spread

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Speaker 1: to more than two hundred other websites, but when she

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Speaker 1: saw legal recourse, people didn't know what to do. I

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Speaker 1: mean the She called the Miami police and they were like, uh,

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Speaker 1: nothing is amiss inside of your home. What we can't

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Speaker 1: do anything to help you probably shouldn't have taken those picks.

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Speaker 1: And even lawyers, a lot of lawyers turned down her

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Speaker 1: case because they, you know, they're like, well, what do

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Speaker 1: you want us to do? Prosecute the internet? Sorry? Uh right, yeah.

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Speaker 1: Basically they said, you know, look, you were a legal adult.

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Speaker 1: You chose to send these pictures to someone, and then

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Speaker 1: that person turned around and possibly did something with them. Sorry,

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Speaker 1: we can't help you. But in April of she missed.

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Speaker 1: Jacobs actually became the first person in the state of

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Speaker 1: Florida to sue an X for the alleged distribution of

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Speaker 1: revenge porn. Now we should also say that, you know,

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Speaker 1: the outcome of that case is that all the charges

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Speaker 1: were dropped against her ex boyfriend, Ryan Say, after prosecutors

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Speaker 1: that they couldn't find sufficient proof linking him to all

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Speaker 1: of those other you know, the distribution basically exactly. Um.

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Speaker 1: But now Jacobs hasn't stopped. She's going public with her experience. Um,

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Speaker 1: her story has been told to me. We read a

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Speaker 1: story about her in Cosmopolitan magazine, actually surprisingly good and

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Speaker 1: comprehensive article about revenge porn in Cosmo. Folks times sort

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Speaker 1: of change in apparently, but you might hear her her

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Speaker 1: name a lot because it's now her mission to help

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Speaker 1: bring down revenge porn. And she's even started an organization

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Speaker 1: to you know, empower victims with legal resources, and is

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Speaker 1: also starting a petition or has started a petition for

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Speaker 1: a federal law against revenge porn. And that's the tricky

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Speaker 1: issue is that the laws around what goes on the

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Speaker 1: internet are very challenging for people who's naked picks have

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Speaker 1: been non consensually posted because it's not necessarily criminal. Hunter More,

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Speaker 1: for instance, was recently arrested by the FBI in late

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Speaker 1: January of two thousand fourteen, but he wasn't arrested for

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Speaker 1: all of the revenge born that he posted. He was

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Speaker 1: arrested for hacking. Yeah. Um. His charges include conspiracy, unauthorized

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Speaker 1: access to a protected computer to obtain information, and seven

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Speaker 1: counts of aggregated identity theft. Because we're we're you know,

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Speaker 1: we're living in an era where all of our laws

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Speaker 1: rules regulations about the Internet can't keep up. They just

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Speaker 1: can't keep up with the way that things are developing online.

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Speaker 1: And we just haven't gotten there yet to protect people

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Speaker 1: as well as we should on the internet. Well, and

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Speaker 1: they're all these fears about free speech and a slippery

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Speaker 1: slope where if you start regulating the kind of things

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Speaker 1: that can and cannot go on the internet. First of all,

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Speaker 1: good luck trying that. But um, but there are legitimate

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Speaker 1: concerns about carefully wording laws that get passed to make

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Speaker 1: sure that it doesn't have a chilling effect on other

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Speaker 1: kinds of speech. And so, for instance, in the case

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Speaker 1: of hunter More, he always spoke very openly to news

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Speaker 1: outlets about what he did and his intentions with his

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Speaker 1: revenge porn website. He was, you know, he could care

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Speaker 1: less because of a little thing called the Communications Decency

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Speaker 1: Act which was passed in and in that there is

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Speaker 1: section two thirty which grants website operators immunity from lawsuits

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Speaker 1: over their users speech, which was a measure intended to

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Speaker 1: preserve online free speech. So, in addition to giving hunter

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Speaker 1: More some legal shelter to be able to post user

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Speaker 1: generated content, which is what all that revenge porn is

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Speaker 1: he's not you know, he's not taking those photos. This

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Speaker 1: is also though the section thirty. This also allows for say,

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Speaker 1: The New York Times to include comments sections with their

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Speaker 1: you know, under their articles. And when you're a commenter,

429
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 1: you can say all sorts of hateful things, and the

430
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 1: New York Times isn't gonna get blasted for that, right,

431
00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:17,639
Speaker 1: And and lawyers have pointed out that the whole obscenity

432
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 1: argument is an exception to section two thirty. You know, pornography, obscenity.

433
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:29,119
Speaker 1: Obscenity is not protected speech. And you mentioned user generated content.

434
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:32,640
Speaker 1: Another lawyer was saying, it's not like these things are

435
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:39,040
Speaker 1: truly literally user generated, Yeah, because the the person who

436
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:45,480
Speaker 1: generated that content was not complicit in it being posted. Yeah.

437
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 1: And so when you look at the lack of anti

438
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 1: revenge porn laws and you look at copyright law, um,

439
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 1: copyright law is probably your best avenue for forgetting pictures

440
00:27:57,800 --> 00:27:59,879
Speaker 1: taken down. Yeah. There is a whole rundown about this

441
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:04,119
Speaker 1: in the American Bar Association Journal talking about how with

442
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:08,400
Speaker 1: copyright law, if the photo is a selfie, a sexy selfie,

443
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:13,120
Speaker 1: then the victim owns that copyright automatically without registering it,

444
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:15,800
Speaker 1: He or she is free to send takedown notices to

445
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:20,800
Speaker 1: the website's operator under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, And

446
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 1: if you were to do that, that should also compel

447
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 1: that website to d index whatever pages had your photos

448
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:35,399
Speaker 1: as well, so that would help scrub your Google identity clean. Yeah, well,

449
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 1: a lot of good that's going to do you, though,

450
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:39,080
Speaker 1: if it's based in a different country, that's right, because

451
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:41,160
Speaker 1: a lot of times foreign web hosts don't really care

452
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:45,920
Speaker 1: too much about US copyright violations. And also the Electronic

453
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 1: Frontier Foundation and organizations like the a c L. You

454
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 1: are hesitant again about revenge peorn laws because of those

455
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 1: First Amendment concerns, because they say, well, if you start

456
00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 1: opening this up, you could have public figures doing wkipedia

457
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 1: for unsavory information about their personal lives being posted, or

458
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:07,720
Speaker 1: their professional lives, or business owners suing yelp if there

459
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:12,520
Speaker 1: are negative reviews. But there are laws that have been

460
00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 1: enacted that are still protective of free speech and of

461
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:18,360
Speaker 1: the First Amendment. Because we're all about the First Amendment.

462
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 1: We're a podcast for crying out Loud. We love the

463
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:24,880
Speaker 1: First Amendment. But there are anti revenge porn laws that

464
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 1: have been crafted and legal groups that are looking into

465
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:33,840
Speaker 1: how the best way to institute these laws which are

466
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 1: happening right now in the United States on more of

467
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:40,120
Speaker 1: a state by state basis. Yeah, back in two thousand three,

468
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 1: New Jersey actually became the first state to make it

469
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:46,360
Speaker 1: a felony to distribute sexual photos of another person without

470
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:48,600
Speaker 1: permissions in New Jerseys on the cutting edge of that.

471
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 1: Fast forward ten years in October of California, Governor Jerry

472
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:58,560
Speaker 1: Brown signed an anti revenge porn law. But it has

473
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 1: a ginormous loophole. It doesn't protect victims who took the

474
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 1: photos themselves, and these photos make up about eight percent

475
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 1: of revenge porn pictures. Yeah, and on top of that,

476
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 1: even though California made a big to do about this law,

477
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 1: the crime is only considered a misdemeanor punishable by up

478
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:20,920
Speaker 1: to six months in jail or one thousand dollar fine.

479
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 1: And so that's another thing that legal scholars are talking

480
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 1: about in terms of you not only need to include

481
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:31,920
Speaker 1: that selfie provision in there because of revenge porn or selfies,

482
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 1: and also you've got to make sure that the possible

483
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 1: criminal impact of this is basically scary enough to people

484
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:47,240
Speaker 1: like Hunter More and Holly Jacobs, who we sided earlier,

485
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:50,760
Speaker 1: and other people are working very hard to get similar

486
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:55,400
Speaker 1: laws on the books in Alabama, Georgia, Maryland, New York, Pennsylvania,

487
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:59,000
Speaker 1: and Wisconsin. So I mean people are actively trying to

488
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:01,560
Speaker 1: make a dent in this. I mean, you know, we're

489
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:04,360
Speaker 1: we're fighting against technology. It's kind of a moving target

490
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:06,800
Speaker 1: at all times. But I you know, they are fighting

491
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 1: to say that we have rights. We have rights even

492
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:12,880
Speaker 1: on the internet. Yeah, and this isn't a US centric

493
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 1: issue either. I mean, in late Australia past legislation making

494
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:21,520
Speaker 1: it illegal to distribute explicit images without a person's consent,

495
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:26,840
Speaker 1: and more recently in January Israel band revenge porn and

496
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:31,600
Speaker 1: it's now punishable by up to five years in prison. Um.

497
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 1: But again, yeah, it's a it's an issue of how

498
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 1: do you craft these laws in an effective enough way

499
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 1: to where you know, you discourage perpetrators from doing it

500
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:44,960
Speaker 1: in the first place, and also protect free speech so

501
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 1: that it doesn't have a chilling effect, and you also

502
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 1: protect potential victims. Because this is all too tied up

503
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:55,520
Speaker 1: with our concept of you know, what is sexual harassment,

504
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 1: what is cyber harassment? You know, women's agency over their body.

505
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:03,560
Speaker 1: I mean, so it's an intersection of so many different

506
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 1: things that we don't really do a good job of

507
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:09,479
Speaker 1: talking about to begin with, right, And that's why one

508
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 1: of those law journals that we were looking at stressed

509
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:17,200
Speaker 1: the importance of educating our lawmakers basically on all of

510
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:21,240
Speaker 1: these issues, not only what is revenge porn, you know,

511
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 1: where are these photos coming from, the the issue of

512
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:28,840
Speaker 1: manipulation and abuse, but also what these people are going through,

513
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 1: that these victims are likely going to experience, you know,

514
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 1: job loss, you know, loss of income, but also emotional

515
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:41,400
Speaker 1: and mental distress. And it is interesting to Holly Jacobs

516
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 1: has said that she doesn't want to be called a victim.

517
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:48,040
Speaker 1: She wants to, you know, be empowered through this um

518
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 1: and you know, to to make life better not only

519
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:54,880
Speaker 1: for herself but for other people who have been affected

520
00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:57,640
Speaker 1: by this. And one thing that some people might be

521
00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:00,440
Speaker 1: thinking is, well, hey, there was a much easier solution

522
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 1: to this, which is stop taking photos of your vagina

523
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:10,480
Speaker 1: and sending it out. And while I absolutely think that

524
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:13,480
Speaker 1: young women and men, but especially young women, because we

525
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:16,960
Speaker 1: make up a bulk of revenge porn targets, the young

526
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:21,040
Speaker 1: women need to be educated about what can happen and

527
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 1: how this unfortunately is a part of the digital landscape.

528
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:27,720
Speaker 1: But the answer is not ladies, put your tops on

529
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 1: and put your phones away, but rather digging deep and

530
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 1: figuring out how, you know, to hold people accountable because

531
00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 1: like it or not, sexting is a part also of

532
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 1: our modern sex lives as well. Yeah, and well, and

533
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:49,040
Speaker 1: unfortunately what goes along with that is, you know, maybe

534
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:54,600
Speaker 1: the younger generations of boys looking at sex sis that's

535
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:58,680
Speaker 1: plural as almost currency, Like look, how cool I am

536
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:00,360
Speaker 1: that I have all these topless photo us of all

537
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 1: these girls in my class right right, And not to

538
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 1: be totally cliche about it, but it is the thing

539
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:08,800
Speaker 1: of like, we have more power than ever before to

540
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 1: consume porn, and to consume is sexual communication with people.

541
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:16,480
Speaker 1: I mean, sexting has made I'm sure for a lot

542
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:20,319
Speaker 1: of couples long distance relationships a lot easier to deal

543
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:23,359
Speaker 1: with in that regard. But with that great power now

544
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 1: comes the great responsibility. And what you know the legal

545
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:29,480
Speaker 1: system has done to this point, I mean, as if

546
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:33,319
Speaker 1: they could have anticipated it. But we're we're lacking on

547
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:38,560
Speaker 1: the responsibility part absolutely well. But there are avenues uh,

548
00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 1: that you can take to control this yourself. UM. One

549
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 1: uh this and this advice goes back to that Cosmo

550
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:49,880
Speaker 1: article that that Kristen sided earlier. Number one is to

551
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:54,080
Speaker 1: copyright your pictures, um because this allows you to send

552
00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:58,280
Speaker 1: those takedown notices to websites using them and to search engines.

553
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:00,960
Speaker 1: And you can do that at be right dot gov.

554
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:03,840
Speaker 1: But remember you don't even have to go and register

555
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:06,160
Speaker 1: your photos at copyright dot gov. If you took a

556
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:10,520
Speaker 1: photo of yourself, you automatically legally own the copyright to

557
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:15,920
Speaker 1: that photo. So if you are sending sexy selfies, you

558
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:18,080
Speaker 1: might want to keep a log of them, keep a

559
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:20,960
Speaker 1: file of all of whatever photos you're sending out. Not

560
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:24,080
Speaker 1: to be paranoid, but if you want to make sure

561
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 1: to c y A, then see your copyright. And if

562
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:32,239
Speaker 1: you do see your photos, you can contact the web

563
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:35,719
Speaker 1: host directly. I mean, because a lot of times US

564
00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:38,200
Speaker 1: based companies don't want to get sued. One of there

565
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 1: was a recent civil suit that go Daddy, which is

566
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:48,239
Speaker 1: a prominent web hosting company, was pulled into because it

567
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:50,840
Speaker 1: was kind of revolutionary because it wasn't just going after

568
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 1: the revenge porn site, but also Go Daddy for even

569
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:58,120
Speaker 1: hosting it. And I can't remember what the exact um

570
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:01,920
Speaker 1: results of that were, but they didn't want anything to

571
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:04,040
Speaker 1: do with it. Yeah, but that is one way too

572
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:06,600
Speaker 1: that if you know that, if you see your pictures,

573
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:12,440
Speaker 1: contact the web host. Yeah, and uh, the voices of

574
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:15,839
Speaker 1: authority in this area, which it's a very small number

575
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:19,800
Speaker 1: of people who are really really have expertise in this. Uh,

576
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:23,880
Speaker 1: they encourage women to get back out there. Basically, you know,

577
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:27,040
Speaker 1: it's it's natural to want to shut down your entire

578
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 1: Internet presence because you're being harassed, but people urge you

579
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:35,319
Speaker 1: to actually get back out there even more. Join those

580
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:38,520
Speaker 1: online groups, make profiles, blog all of the stuff they say,

581
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:43,080
Speaker 1: because the more material you're posting that's newly generated, the

582
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:46,799
Speaker 1: further down your photos will go. You also want to

583
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:49,200
Speaker 1: do things like maybe set a Google alert for your

584
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:51,480
Speaker 1: name and if one of those pictures comes up, you'll

585
00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:54,319
Speaker 1: already be ready to tackle it. And there are a

586
00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:57,000
Speaker 1: growing number of organizations that you can reach out to

587
00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,799
Speaker 1: UM to figure out any kind of legal course you

588
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:05,640
Speaker 1: could take, or just help with getting photos taken down, etcetera.

589
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:08,000
Speaker 1: UM or just connecting with other people who are going

590
00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:12,000
Speaker 1: through similar situations. So organizations like Without My Consent, Army

591
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:15,480
Speaker 1: of She and Revenge Porn dot org. Those are just

592
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:20,759
Speaker 1: a few of these UM advocate groups that are now

593
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:24,480
Speaker 1: starting to pop up more. And if you if you

594
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:26,720
Speaker 1: don't have a pencil and paper right now, don't worry.

595
00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:30,439
Speaker 1: We'll have information like all of our episodes sources over

596
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:32,239
Speaker 1: its stuff Mom Never told You dot com if you

597
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:35,120
Speaker 1: click on the podcast link on the homepage will include

598
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:38,120
Speaker 1: all of the links to everything that we've been talking about,

599
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:42,200
Speaker 1: so um you can if you want more information, you

600
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:44,520
Speaker 1: can find it there as well. Well. I think it's

601
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:47,120
Speaker 1: I think it's so incredibly important that these women are

602
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:51,520
Speaker 1: speaking out. Um, you know, I think, yeah, your natural

603
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:54,200
Speaker 1: inclination would be to just hide and and try to

604
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:56,600
Speaker 1: ignore it and make it go away, move to a

605
00:37:56,640 --> 00:38:00,759
Speaker 1: different country, a different state. Um. That the fact that

606
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:03,080
Speaker 1: these women are speaking up and saying no, I'm taking

607
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:07,160
Speaker 1: control of this situation. I want other people women, men, everyone,

608
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:10,799
Speaker 1: especially younger people who you know, that's a whole other

609
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:14,520
Speaker 1: issue of the generational divide in this technology stuff. But

610
00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:18,319
Speaker 1: you know, making people more aware of the damage that

611
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:21,359
Speaker 1: can be done. Yeah, and I mean, speaking of kind

612
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:23,799
Speaker 1: of wanting to hide, this is too one of those

613
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:25,960
Speaker 1: topics where I would much prefer to bury my head

614
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:28,719
Speaker 1: in the sand and pretend that it's not happening, because

615
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:32,000
Speaker 1: it is horrifying. It's off. Yeah, it's disgusting. But that's

616
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:35,080
Speaker 1: one reason too that we decided to talk about it.

617
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:36,600
Speaker 1: I mean we I don't think we've really ever talked

618
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:40,319
Speaker 1: about porn on the podcast, um, but this is one

619
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:45,200
Speaker 1: where we gotta we gotta address it, especially for our audience. Yeah,

620
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:47,520
Speaker 1: for sure. So what we've been talking about resonates with you,

621
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:49,160
Speaker 1: and you want to talk to us about it. We

622
00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:51,400
Speaker 1: want to hear from you. Moms Stuff at Discovery dot

623
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:54,120
Speaker 1: com is where you can send us emails. You can

624
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 1: also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast and also messages

625
00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 1: on Facebook. And we've got a couple of letters to

626
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:06,759
Speaker 1: share with you right now. So for a little bit

627
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:10,600
Speaker 1: of a lighter diversion, we've had a couple of letters

628
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:14,719
Speaker 1: here from our episode on gender and Coffee, and this

629
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:18,160
Speaker 1: one comes from a gentleman who who didn't include his name.

630
00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 1: He's a Turkish gentleman though, so he writes, as I

631
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:24,520
Speaker 1: have just finished listening to your specialty Coffee and Gender podcast.

632
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:26,880
Speaker 1: I was very interested in your historical approach to the

633
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:30,759
Speaker 1: modern day situation being a Turk and enjoying coffee, very

634
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:32,880
Speaker 1: strong coffee. As a matter of fact, I wanted to

635
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:34,920
Speaker 1: let you know that the best coffee is made by

636
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:37,680
Speaker 1: women in my country. In fact, it's almost an art.

637
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:39,520
Speaker 1: A good woman, to Mary should be able to make

638
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:42,560
Speaker 1: Turkish coffee with plenty of foam on top. The more foam,

639
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:45,520
Speaker 1: the better you are. Also, as a pastime, we drink

640
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 1: Turkish coffee and when done, flip our little cups over

641
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:50,239
Speaker 1: the saucers, wait for it to cool, and then read

642
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:53,200
Speaker 1: our fortunes. Just about anybody knows a thing or two

643
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:56,319
Speaker 1: about coffee cup reading, even guys. Sometimes drinking coffee and

644
00:39:56,320 --> 00:40:00,520
Speaker 1: reading fortunes can take hours combined, and that's a great versation.

645
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:02,920
Speaker 1: So my point with all of this is that with

646
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 1: such a small cup of coffee, you can really enjoy

647
00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:08,880
Speaker 1: the process much longer, and that women can be great

648
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:12,359
Speaker 1: coffee makers. I think my coffee cup fortune, though, would

649
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:16,279
Speaker 1: just always say I'm tired. I'm tired. I need you

650
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:19,120
Speaker 1: need a nap in your future and possibly a trip

651
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:22,359
Speaker 1: to the bathroom after. Yes, um, I have a letter

652
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:25,080
Speaker 1: here from Michael uh. He says I'm a male barista

653
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:28,080
Speaker 1: at Starbucks, and the moment I saw this episode pop up,

654
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:31,640
Speaker 1: I knew it was must hear material. There is absolutely

655
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:34,560
Speaker 1: a gender dividing coffee. I currently work in a store

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00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:37,680
Speaker 1: where the female employees greatly outnumber the male employees, but

657
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:40,319
Speaker 1: most of the time, questions about coffee get fielded to

658
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:43,200
Speaker 1: me because I'm a guy. Customers seem to think that

659
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:45,040
Speaker 1: I know more about it than the women around me,

660
00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:47,040
Speaker 1: even though many of them have been with the company

661
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:49,959
Speaker 1: for the same amount of time or longer. I even

662
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:52,480
Speaker 1: once had a customer snap in the face of a

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00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:56,000
Speaker 1: female manager to get her attention. Understandably, this was not

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00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:58,440
Speaker 1: taken well and she was not happy about it. I

665
00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:02,080
Speaker 1: also wanted to point out a out gendered beverages. Several

666
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:05,160
Speaker 1: of my co workers and I have considered charting demographics

667
00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:08,080
Speaker 1: of drink orders because they definitely seem to follow a pattern.

668
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:10,960
Speaker 1: If a group of teenage girls walk up, my instinct

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00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:13,960
Speaker 1: is to get the blender ready, because, without fail, there

670
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:16,960
Speaker 1: will be a majority of them ordering for appuccinos. That said,

671
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:19,400
Speaker 1: there are just as many female customers I have who

672
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:22,720
Speaker 1: want just straight espresso or black coffee, and I wouldn't

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00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:25,960
Speaker 1: necessarily consider a cappuccino to be a feminine drink, because

674
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:28,480
Speaker 1: if made right, it's going to have a stronger coffee

675
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:31,759
Speaker 1: flavor than a latte of the same size. Since cappuccino

676
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:34,359
Speaker 1: is one third espresso, one third steamed milk, and one

677
00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:37,400
Speaker 1: third milk foam, and a latte is just espresso and

678
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:41,080
Speaker 1: steamed milk, well, I think it's ridiculous to assign genders

679
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:42,719
Speaker 1: to beverages. If I had to chart it, I would

680
00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:46,600
Speaker 1: place a cappuccino on the more masculine end of the spectrum. Personally,

681
00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:50,120
Speaker 1: I prefer a simple iced coffee or ice latte. So

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00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:54,239
Speaker 1: thank you for that window into coffee making, Michael, and

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00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:56,719
Speaker 1: thanks to everybody who's written into us. Mom Stuff at

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00:41:56,719 --> 00:42:00,400
Speaker 1: Discovery dot com is our email address and for all

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00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:03,400
Speaker 1: of our podcast, blogs, videos, and links to all of

686
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:07,400
Speaker 1: our social media presences, there's one place to go, and

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00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:14,560
Speaker 1: it's Stuff Mom Never Told You dot com. For more

688
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:16,880
Speaker 1: on this and thousands of other topics, does it How

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00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:26,480
Speaker 1: stuff works dot com