WEBVTT - From Wrestlers to Rappers: Copyright Tattoo Cases 0:00:03.160 --> 0:00:13.720 This is Bloomberg Law with June Brusso from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:14.040 --> 0:00:28.480 Lawns was a bies or methodical, diamabolical combination. Randy Orton, 0:00:28.600 --> 0:00:31.840 known as the Viper, is a superstar in world wrestling 0:00:31.960 --> 0:00:36.720 entertainment who's won fourteen world heavyweight titles. The wrestler also 0:00:36.880 --> 0:00:40.320 stars in the best selling w w E two K 0:00:40.640 --> 0:00:43.720 video games. But it was a tattoo artist who got 0:00:43.760 --> 0:00:46.400 the win in a legal bout over Orton's image in 0:00:46.440 --> 0:00:50.840 the video games. Katherine Alexander sued the w w E 0:00:50.920 --> 0:00:54.040 and the video game maker, saying the five tattoos she 0:00:54.240 --> 0:00:58.200 inked on Orton were used without her permission. The companies 0:00:58.240 --> 0:01:00.760 came back with a defense that it was fair use 0:01:00.920 --> 0:01:04.160 in order to recreate Orton's image in the games. The 0:01:04.280 --> 0:01:07.120 jury gave the win to the tattoo artist, but it 0:01:07.200 --> 0:01:10.400 was like a split decision because the award was for 0:01:10.520 --> 0:01:13.399 just a fraction of what she wanted. My guest is 0:01:13.440 --> 0:01:18.479 intellectual property litigator Terrence Ross, a partner Caton Uten Rosenman Terry. 0:01:18.480 --> 0:01:21.360 I've been hearing about a lot of copyright cases involving 0:01:21.440 --> 0:01:26.080 tattoos recently. Is the law in this area settled? No? 0:01:26.800 --> 0:01:32.480 The intellectual property in tattoos remains very unsettled. Demonstrating that 0:01:32.760 --> 0:01:35.600 is two recent jury verdicts we have within the last 0:01:35.640 --> 0:01:40.240 thirty days, one from the Southern District of Illinois captioned 0:01:40.319 --> 0:01:44.520 Alexander versus Take two Interactive Software, and then another one 0:01:44.560 --> 0:01:47.200 coming out of Central District, California, which is Los Angeles 0:01:47.680 --> 0:01:51.360 captioned Brophy versus Almond Sand which apparently is the real 0:01:51.440 --> 0:01:54.200 name of Cardi b the Queen of Rap. And both 0:01:54.200 --> 0:01:58.400 of them came to swet different results and I think 0:01:58.440 --> 0:02:01.720 demonstrate that there's still need form his mouth fluidity in 0:02:01.960 --> 0:02:06.920 the intellectual property surrounding tattoos terry. So the fair use 0:02:07.000 --> 0:02:10.200 defense didn't work for the w w E in this case, 0:02:10.600 --> 0:02:16.320 that's correct. So this is the famous Take two video game. 0:02:16.880 --> 0:02:23.080 W w E two K sixteen seventeen eighteen nineteen comes 0:02:23.120 --> 0:02:26.640 out every year, and starting with the w w E 0:02:26.760 --> 0:02:31.400 two K sixteen, they were using as one of the 0:02:31.480 --> 0:02:35.919 on screen wrestlers, Randy Orton. Randy Orton, for those of 0:02:35.960 --> 0:02:39.160 you don't follow the w w E, is thirteen time 0:02:39.360 --> 0:02:43.280 world Champion of the w w E and famous for 0:02:43.360 --> 0:02:48.120 having his upper body heavily tattooed five distinct tattoos, and 0:02:48.200 --> 0:02:51.880 of course, to replicate him in the video game, the 0:02:52.240 --> 0:02:56.200 video game manufacturers had to show him with these tattoos. 0:02:56.280 --> 0:02:59.800 And in advance of releasing the first game that Randy 0:03:00.320 --> 0:03:02.720 was in, which was w W E two K sixteen 0:03:02.840 --> 0:03:05.680 back in the fall two fifteen, they went to his 0:03:05.760 --> 0:03:09.000 tattoo artist, a woman by the name of Catherine Alexander, 0:03:09.360 --> 0:03:13.680 and asked for permission to display these five tattoos on 0:03:13.760 --> 0:03:16.800 his character in the game, and offered her a license 0:03:16.880 --> 0:03:19.720 fee and relatively spaw four hundred fifty dollars, and she 0:03:19.760 --> 0:03:22.440 said no Wara. She said she would never license her 0:03:22.480 --> 0:03:25.680 tattoos to anyone. A couple of years go by and 0:03:25.800 --> 0:03:31.639 she files a lawsuit against the game manufacturer alleging copyright infringement, 0:03:31.800 --> 0:03:34.359 and low behold, it turns out she did have copyright 0:03:34.400 --> 0:03:37.240 registrations in each of the tattoos that she had applied 0:03:37.320 --> 0:03:41.360 to Randy Orton's torso, and the lawsuit went to trial 0:03:41.400 --> 0:03:43.960 back in September, and a jury found in her favor 0:03:44.000 --> 0:03:46.960 found that there was a copyright infringement, but the jury 0:03:47.040 --> 0:03:53.680 award was three thousand, seven fifty dollars, which seems really 0:03:53.880 --> 0:03:56.840 low to me, especially if you consider. I don't know 0:03:56.840 --> 0:03:59.600 if the legal work was on a contingency basis, but 0:03:59.680 --> 0:04:03.240 the lost of trial. You're right, June, this is a 0:04:03.360 --> 0:04:08.320 relatively trivial jury award and in my view, represents a 0:04:08.440 --> 0:04:12.240 compromise on the part of the jury members. You often 0:04:12.280 --> 0:04:15.520 see this in civil lawsuits, where there's some dispute within 0:04:15.560 --> 0:04:17.799 the jury members as to whether or not there should 0:04:17.800 --> 0:04:20.080 be a finding liability in the first place, and the 0:04:20.120 --> 0:04:23.400 compromise usually goes something like this, well, okay, we will 0:04:23.440 --> 0:04:27.320 agree to say that the defendant is liable, and you 0:04:27.600 --> 0:04:30.560 will agree to say that the damages are going to 0:04:30.560 --> 0:04:33.119 be very low. And it's a typical jury compromise when 0:04:33.160 --> 0:04:35.960 the jury doesn't have a consensus. And I'm guessing that's 0:04:35.960 --> 0:04:38.520 exactly what happened here, and you're right. Chances are this 0:04:38.720 --> 0:04:40.680 was on a contingent fee basis. I don't know that 0:04:40.720 --> 0:04:43.520 for a fact, but that's typically the way these are pursued, 0:04:44.000 --> 0:04:47.320 and that would represent not enough money to cover the 0:04:47.400 --> 0:04:50.440 planets attorneys sees not even come close. I happen to 0:04:50.520 --> 0:04:53.160 dull the lead attorney for the defense here, and that 0:04:53.200 --> 0:04:55.600 would have covered only about three hours the first time, 0:04:55.760 --> 0:05:01.040 So it's very much I think victory for the defendant, 0:05:01.480 --> 0:05:04.200 but they would probably have preferred not to have to 0:05:04.200 --> 0:05:06.880 take it to a jury, to have prevailed on summary judgment, 0:05:06.880 --> 0:05:09.560 which has happened in the past with this particular defendant. 0:05:09.839 --> 0:05:12.520 It seems to me like the jury was thinking about, 0:05:12.640 --> 0:05:15.599 you know, the implications because they found that none of 0:05:15.640 --> 0:05:20.320 the profits of the game were attributable to the five tattoos. 0:05:20.400 --> 0:05:23.360 And that makes sense to me, because no one's playing 0:05:23.400 --> 0:05:26.120 the game to look at the tattoos. I think that's 0:05:26.160 --> 0:05:28.120 exactly right. I think the jury probably sat there and 0:05:28.120 --> 0:05:31.160 said to themselves, well, what would have been a reasonable 0:05:31.320 --> 0:05:34.680 license fee here, instead of looking at what the profitability 0:05:34.680 --> 0:05:36.640 of the game was. And it really goes to a 0:05:36.680 --> 0:05:39.000 different question, which is whether or not this case should 0:05:39.000 --> 0:05:40.680 ever got to the jury in the first place. The 0:05:40.880 --> 0:05:44.880 sort of traditional game plan with respect to the defense 0:05:44.920 --> 0:05:48.960 against copyright and tattoos has been three parts. You argue 0:05:49.040 --> 0:05:51.640 that there's a fair use, you argue that there's an 0:05:51.640 --> 0:05:54.960 implied license, and you argue that there's a day minimous use. 0:05:55.360 --> 0:05:59.760 And your comment really goes towards this day minimous use issue. 0:06:00.040 --> 0:06:03.679 You see the tattoos fleetingly. He's one character in the game. 0:06:03.960 --> 0:06:08.560 It's clearly not contributing that much to the game users 0:06:08.640 --> 0:06:11.479 enjoyment of the game. It's simply an identifier of one 0:06:11.560 --> 0:06:14.080 character in the game. And in the past, not that 0:06:14.120 --> 0:06:16.160 there are a ton of lawsuits on tattoos, but in 0:06:16.200 --> 0:06:18.960 the past judges, particularly in the the Southern District, New York, 0:06:19.160 --> 0:06:22.440 have thrown out the copyright and tattoo lawsuits in video 0:06:22.440 --> 0:06:25.560 games on the grounds of the day minimus youth defense. 0:06:25.800 --> 0:06:28.159 They have also been tattoo lawsuits thrown out on the 0:06:28.200 --> 0:06:31.600 grounds of implied license. And after all, the person gets 0:06:31.680 --> 0:06:34.000 a tattoo on a body part, they're going to be 0:06:34.160 --> 0:06:37.440 them leaving the tattoo parlor and walking around in public 0:06:37.600 --> 0:06:40.520 publicly displaying the tattoo with the people. That's usually the 0:06:40.560 --> 0:06:42.720 reason they have a tattoo, so as to show off 0:06:42.800 --> 0:06:45.920 their body art the folks, and the tattoo artist knows that, 0:06:46.120 --> 0:06:48.719 and yet they're letting them walk around with this tattoo 0:06:48.760 --> 0:06:51.320 on them. That has to be an implied license on 0:06:51.360 --> 0:06:54.560 the part of the tattoo artist to allow this person 0:06:54.720 --> 0:06:58.360 to publicly display the tattoo. And that's where reasoning has 0:06:58.520 --> 0:07:01.040 cost tattoo artists in the past. Any chance that even 0:07:01.080 --> 0:07:03.560 getting to a jury. The big surprise with this lawsuit 0:07:03.760 --> 0:07:05.520 was that it even got to the jury in the 0:07:05.560 --> 0:07:08.520 first place. Take to interact, and I've been successful in 0:07:08.600 --> 0:07:12.400 the past on summary judgment with respect to NBA games. 0:07:12.440 --> 0:07:15.160 The NBA players often have tattoos that are displayed in 0:07:15.200 --> 0:07:18.400 these video games, and they had managed to avoid jury 0:07:18.400 --> 0:07:20.920 trials and get some re judgment on an applied license 0:07:21.040 --> 0:07:23.200 or fair use or the minimus us. And here the 0:07:23.280 --> 0:07:25.640 judge in the Sun Distribute Illinois, which probably doesn't get 0:07:25.640 --> 0:07:28.360 a lot of copyright law, said no, I'm not granting 0:07:28.400 --> 0:07:31.480 you some rey judgment. I think there's a factual dispute. 0:07:31.480 --> 0:07:33.240 We'll let the jury sort it out. And so that 0:07:33.320 --> 0:07:36.080 was sort of the unusual thing here. And we'll have 0:07:36.200 --> 0:07:39.000 to see what happens going forward, whether more and more 0:07:39.040 --> 0:07:48.840 of these tattoo cases get to a jury. Money let's 0:07:48.840 --> 0:07:52.600 go now from wrestlers to rappers. Cardibi was sued not 0:07:52.800 --> 0:07:55.720 over her tats, but over the tattoo on the cover 0:07:55.800 --> 0:07:59.760 of her mix tape. The full back tattoos of Kevin 0:08:00.000 --> 0:08:04.600 Trophy showing a tiger fighting a snake, were photoshopped onto 0:08:04.680 --> 0:08:08.520 the back of the model in this sexually explicit cover 0:08:08.880 --> 0:08:13.679 and Brophy sued, saying his publicity and privacy rights were violated. 0:08:13.840 --> 0:08:17.160 So this is a different twist. Sure, this is a 0:08:17.280 --> 0:08:20.920 sort of a different approach by the plaintiff. The plaintiff, 0:08:21.280 --> 0:08:25.160 Mr Brophy was not the tattoo artist, but he had 0:08:25.200 --> 0:08:29.240 obtained over a period time, a very complex tattoo on 0:08:29.320 --> 0:08:33.240 his back of a tiger fighting a snake, actually quite artistic. 0:08:33.480 --> 0:08:37.200 Flash forward a couple of years and Cardie B was 0:08:37.480 --> 0:08:40.520 about to release her breakthrough album This Is in two 0:08:40.559 --> 0:08:43.800 thousand six FT, the album that really made her into 0:08:43.840 --> 0:08:47.040 what she is now, and the album cover was, as 0:08:47.040 --> 0:08:51.040 you described, very racy. It involved a sexual act being 0:08:51.080 --> 0:08:54.160 performed on her by a mail whose back was to 0:08:54.440 --> 0:08:59.960 the camera. And apparently when they looked at the photo 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:02.839 grafts of this photo session for the album cover, Cardi 0:09:02.880 --> 0:09:06.120 B did not like the back of the model or 0:09:06.280 --> 0:09:09.640 social test by Trout, and so they photo shopped in 0:09:10.200 --> 0:09:14.280 this tattoo of Mr Brophy which they had found somewhere online. 0:09:14.520 --> 0:09:17.960 And there's no dispute that they found his tattoo online 0:09:18.000 --> 0:09:20.920 and photoshopped it onto the back of the actual model 0:09:21.040 --> 0:09:24.160 in this cover. So they used his tattoo. Mr Brophy 0:09:24.520 --> 0:09:28.760 claims that he was humiliated. He was mortified that he 0:09:28.800 --> 0:09:34.240 was embarrassed, psychologically traumatized by this cover of a sexual 0:09:34.360 --> 0:09:38.920 act being out there in the marketplace, and afraid that people, 0:09:38.960 --> 0:09:41.760 including his kids and friends would think this was him 0:09:41.840 --> 0:09:44.240 in real life doing this. And so he brought a 0:09:44.280 --> 0:09:49.040 lawsuit in federal court in Los Angeles alleging that the 0:09:49.200 --> 0:09:53.520 use of his tattoo in this album cover was either 0:09:53.559 --> 0:09:57.240 a misappropriation of his likeness or an invasion of privacy 0:09:57.280 --> 0:09:59.760 on a sort of false life theory. And that's what 0:10:00.280 --> 0:10:04.640 this case is different from the case involving the Randy 0:10:04.760 --> 0:10:07.439 Orton tattoo in that there was no copyright allegation here. 0:10:07.520 --> 0:10:11.120 June Cardi B had several defenses. She said on the stand, 0:10:11.280 --> 0:10:13.840 it's not him to me, it doesn't look like his 0:10:13.920 --> 0:10:17.280 back at all. The tattoo was modified and the jury 0:10:17.320 --> 0:10:20.280 sided with her. I'm wondering how much her celebrity had 0:10:20.320 --> 0:10:23.040 to do with the verdict. Well, you would certainly think so. 0:10:23.240 --> 0:10:26.600 My past experience in celebrity cases is that there is 0:10:26.760 --> 0:10:30.679 an influence on the jury. It's not always a positive 0:10:30.840 --> 0:10:33.800 influence the jury. And there's certain celebrities I think Cardi 0:10:33.840 --> 0:10:36.760 B is one of them. Taylor Swift, who if they're 0:10:36.920 --> 0:10:39.040 involved in the case. President the courtroom, I think the 0:10:39.120 --> 0:10:42.800 jury does sort of slant toward them, so that may 0:10:42.840 --> 0:10:46.439 have happened here. Cardie b is very popular, like kids, 0:10:46.440 --> 0:10:48.440 referred to as the Queen of Wrap, and so I 0:10:48.440 --> 0:10:50.720 think that there's no way you can't help but do that. 0:10:51.080 --> 0:10:53.080 The other thing that happened during the trial is that 0:10:53.160 --> 0:10:56.120 the attorney for the plaintiff for Mr. Brophy, got into 0:10:56.160 --> 0:10:58.760 it with her, and the attorney pushed the line a bit, 0:10:58.960 --> 0:11:02.480 and she pushed back and took great umbrage understand that 0:11:02.800 --> 0:11:08.080 anyone would claim that somehow their tattoo was responsible for 0:11:08.240 --> 0:11:12.080 the enormous success of this album and her music, and indeed, 0:11:12.080 --> 0:11:14.040 she went so far as to paint this is yet 0:11:14.040 --> 0:11:18.280 another case of a patriarchal society trying to deny that 0:11:18.440 --> 0:11:22.880 a woman was able to create something successful in the marketplace. 0:11:23.120 --> 0:11:26.760 And I think that as much as her public celebrity, 0:11:27.000 --> 0:11:30.559 was very influential with the jury here. So considering all 0:11:30.600 --> 0:11:34.680 these verdicts, who has the leverage and negotiations Because the 0:11:34.760 --> 0:11:39.560 tattoo artist won the Randy Orton case, but the award was, 0:11:39.760 --> 0:11:43.640 as we've discussed, paltry the issue here, June is that 0:11:43.679 --> 0:11:47.920 the law is not sufficiently mature, not developed at the 0:11:47.960 --> 0:11:52.439 appellate level so that litigants know what their rights are 0:11:52.520 --> 0:11:55.840 with some certainty. I think at some point the circuit 0:11:55.880 --> 0:11:59.040 course will say that there is as a matter of 0:11:59.120 --> 0:12:02.920 law and implied the license here to publicly display the copyrights, 0:12:02.960 --> 0:12:06.360 and or a demonimous use defense. The fair use defense 0:12:06.480 --> 0:12:08.439 is hard to make out in all these cases. I 0:12:08.440 --> 0:12:10.680 don't think that'll be successful. But if that's the way 0:12:10.720 --> 0:12:13.400 we come down, that the law is a little bit 0:12:13.440 --> 0:12:16.520 on the side of the user as opposed to the 0:12:16.520 --> 0:12:20.080 tattoo artist or in the Brophy case, stuff tattoo, where 0:12:20.520 --> 0:12:24.560 I think the leverage is really against the tattoo artist. 0:12:24.800 --> 0:12:27.320 And we certainly see with this one verdict out of 0:12:27.400 --> 0:12:30.160 the Southern District Illinois that juries just don't think this 0:12:30.240 --> 0:12:33.160 is worth much, and that will make it a lot 0:12:33.480 --> 0:12:37.080 easier for the litigants to settle these cases, probably on 0:12:37.080 --> 0:12:39.560 the low side. Now, there's another side to this equation, 0:12:39.840 --> 0:12:43.720 which is when the end user, either CARDI B using 0:12:43.760 --> 0:12:47.679 this photo for album or video game manufacturer using it 0:12:47.760 --> 0:12:50.439 in a video game, whether they really want to incur 0:12:50.679 --> 0:12:55.000 these substantial legal fees that are involved, because even though 0:12:55.320 --> 0:12:58.160 A two Interactive was only hit by the jury Verdi 0:12:58.240 --> 0:13:01.640 for fifty dollars, they spent at least a million dollars, 0:13:01.640 --> 0:13:04.080 probably more on the legal fees, none of which come 0:13:04.120 --> 0:13:06.480 back to them. Same in the Cardi B case, probably 0:13:06.480 --> 0:13:09.280 spent taking this case to trial a million dollars. And 0:13:09.440 --> 0:13:11.720 it seems to me it would make more sense for 0:13:11.800 --> 0:13:15.920 the end user of these tattoos in secondary creative works 0:13:16.000 --> 0:13:19.040 to go to whoever owns the intellectual property rights in 0:13:19.040 --> 0:13:22.600 the tattoo and negotiate something up front, and four fifty dollars, 0:13:22.600 --> 0:13:24.560 as we saw in the Alexander case, is not going 0:13:24.600 --> 0:13:26.560 to get it done, and to offer them, you know, 0:13:26.640 --> 0:13:29.800 several thousands of dollars, which is certainly a lot less 0:13:29.880 --> 0:13:33.720 than the million dollars attorneys fees, and also diminishes risk, 0:13:33.920 --> 0:13:36.560 which is something that big companies are always looking for. 0:13:37.120 --> 0:13:42.080 Practically speaking, Let's say one of these companies take too Interactive, 0:13:42.360 --> 0:13:45.120 can't come to an agreement with the tattoo artist. Isn't 0:13:45.160 --> 0:13:48.719 it pretty easy for them to obscure the tattoos or 0:13:48.920 --> 0:13:52.160 change the tattoos enough in the video game that they 0:13:52.280 --> 0:13:56.160 won't be responsible. Well, that's where this minimust youth defense 0:13:56.360 --> 0:13:59.000 comes in and has been successful in the past. That 0:13:59.520 --> 0:14:02.880 the play here is in motion, you just get a 0:14:03.000 --> 0:14:06.199 glimpse of that tattoo. So the majority of the game 0:14:06.400 --> 0:14:09.880 does not involve looking at tattoos or seeing the tattoos, 0:14:09.920 --> 0:14:14.040 and so it seems like it should be covered by 0:14:14.040 --> 0:14:17.079 the day men use defense. The problem with the case 0:14:17.120 --> 0:14:19.800 in the Southern District Illinois is that the Seventh Circuit 0:14:19.920 --> 0:14:23.680 has never dealt with the issue of demonimous use. Illinois 0:14:23.720 --> 0:14:25.480 is part of the Seventh Circuit, which is based in 0:14:25.600 --> 0:14:29.440 Chicago in the states surrounding Illinois, and they just simply 0:14:29.480 --> 0:14:32.080 haven't dealt with it, whereas Second Circuit in the Ninth 0:14:32.160 --> 0:14:35.440 Circuit have and have established pretty strong to unanimous use defenses. 0:14:35.840 --> 0:14:39.720 And so the district court judge here said, well, they've 0:14:39.800 --> 0:14:42.240 never decided it, so I'll just let the jury consider 0:14:42.240 --> 0:14:46.360 whether the facts established it or not. Arguably wrong, but 0:14:47.000 --> 0:14:50.640 that's the way it went um. So again, going forward, 0:14:50.680 --> 0:14:54.440 it just seems like an easy thing for game manufacturer 0:14:55.040 --> 0:14:58.160 to go to the tattoo artist or the tattoo where 0:14:58.280 --> 0:15:01.480 and and buy out the rights for a few thousand dollars. 0:15:01.520 --> 0:15:04.760 I mean, going forward, if there are more of these cases. 0:15:04.800 --> 0:15:08.960 If the game companies don't learn their lesson, do you 0:15:09.040 --> 0:15:12.040 think that this will be an area that's more defined 0:15:12.080 --> 0:15:15.920 than legally. The curious thing here, June, is that we've 0:15:16.040 --> 0:15:18.200 not had any of these court cases go up on 0:15:18.320 --> 0:15:22.920 appeal to circuit courts, so we just don't have appellate law, 0:15:23.440 --> 0:15:26.320 and tattoos are everywhere. It's different than music. Music cases 0:15:26.360 --> 0:15:30.400 are where uh New York Second Circuit, uh, Nashville, Detroit 0:15:30.520 --> 0:15:33.960 six Circuit, Los Angeles Ninth Circuit. So you have well 0:15:34.000 --> 0:15:37.680 developed law with respect of music cases. Art cases you 0:15:37.760 --> 0:15:41.240 see heavily in the Second Circuit New York. Movies, television 0:15:41.240 --> 0:15:44.280 cases you see heavily in on the West Coast Ninth Circuit. 0:15:44.480 --> 0:15:47.000 Tattoos are everywhere. I mean tell them just to Illinois. 0:15:47.040 --> 0:15:50.640 Hown't seen a copyright case there and forever, and so 0:15:51.080 --> 0:15:53.200 you just can't be sure where the next one is 0:15:53.240 --> 0:15:55.840 going to come. We do know that there's going to 0:15:55.880 --> 0:15:59.080 be a trial in one of these NBA video game 0:15:59.120 --> 0:16:03.040 cases in a Hio in the spring of assuming it 0:16:03.040 --> 0:16:05.920 doesn't get settled or pushed off, and again that's yet 0:16:06.000 --> 0:16:08.920 another court that gets to decide these. So we're just 0:16:09.000 --> 0:16:13.920 not seeing them brought consistently in one place where one 0:16:13.960 --> 0:16:16.200 of them gets up to the circuit court, the circuit 0:16:16.200 --> 0:16:19.880 court renders some law, clarifies the situation, and then we 0:16:19.920 --> 0:16:22.680 move forward with some certainty. It's just very odd that 0:16:22.800 --> 0:16:26.360 the cases have been very diffused, just brought everywhere. And 0:16:26.400 --> 0:16:29.640 we'll see what happens in this upcoming case where a 0:16:29.680 --> 0:16:34.440 tattoo artist who inked NBA players including Lebron James and 0:16:34.480 --> 0:16:38.200 Tristan Thompson, is suing the maker of the video game 0:16:38.440 --> 0:16:42.280 NBA two K. Thanks so much for your insights as always, Terry. 0:16:42.400 --> 0:16:46.800 That's intellectual property litigator Terence Ross of Captain Yuchen Rosenman. 0:16:48.280 --> 0:16:51.920 When a star athlete and a supermodel get divorced, it's 0:16:51.960 --> 0:16:55.440 sure to make headlines. Although Tom Brady and Gazelle Bunch 0:16:55.520 --> 0:16:58.760 and have tried to quell any media frenzy by coming 0:16:58.800 --> 0:17:03.360 to a quick settlement and issuing corresponding statements on Instagram 0:17:03.440 --> 0:17:07.280 about their divorce after thirteen years of marriage and two children, 0:17:07.720 --> 0:17:11.399 and Brady addressed the divorce on his podcast. Obviously, the 0:17:11.400 --> 0:17:14.679 good news is things that it's a very amicable situation, 0:17:14.760 --> 0:17:17.280 and I'm really focused on two things and take care 0:17:17.320 --> 0:17:21.880 of my family and certainly my children, and secondly doing 0:17:21.920 --> 0:17:24.280 the best job I can to win football games. So 0:17:24.800 --> 0:17:28.040 that's what professionals do. You focus at work when it's 0:17:28.040 --> 0:17:30.040 time to work, and when you come home, you focus 0:17:30.040 --> 0:17:33.119 on the priorities that are at home, and all you 0:17:33.160 --> 0:17:35.440 can do is the best you could do. And that's 0:17:35.480 --> 0:17:38.080 what I'll just continue to do, is as long as 0:17:38.119 --> 0:17:40.720 I'm working, as long as I'm being a dad. Joining 0:17:40.760 --> 0:17:44.160 me is divorce attorney Christopher Melcher, a partner Walter Melcher, 0:17:44.200 --> 0:17:48.439 and Yodah. Their statements tracked each other, bunching in an 0:17:48.480 --> 0:17:51.560 Instagram story set with much gratitude for our time together, 0:17:51.680 --> 0:17:55.280 Tom and I have amicably finalized our divorce, Brady said, 0:17:55.320 --> 0:17:58.639 we arrived at this decision amicably and with gratitude for 0:17:58.640 --> 0:18:01.000 the time we spent together there and they both talked 0:18:01.000 --> 0:18:04.600 about their children, asked the public to respect their privacy. 0:18:04.760 --> 0:18:10.000 Does that indicate that this was a well worked out divorce? Absolutely. 0:18:10.280 --> 0:18:13.639 The statements on social media were released by each of 0:18:13.680 --> 0:18:17.000 them and around the same time. It wasn't a joint statement, 0:18:17.080 --> 0:18:21.720 but the statements were very similar and indicate that they 0:18:21.760 --> 0:18:26.560 have resolved things amicably and that they're going forward, just 0:18:26.720 --> 0:18:29.560 really as co parents and trying to focus on their 0:18:29.680 --> 0:18:34.080 kids and let this kind of get behind them. The 0:18:34.160 --> 0:18:38.320 petition for dissolution of marriage was just three pages. So 0:18:38.400 --> 0:18:41.120 somewhere else, I take it is the legal document about 0:18:41.160 --> 0:18:44.479 how they're splitting things up. Yeah, so they have to 0:18:44.520 --> 0:18:48.000 file a case in public court to get a divorce, 0:18:48.440 --> 0:18:52.040 and so that started, which zel filing a petition for dissolution, 0:18:52.680 --> 0:18:55.359 and then the next step will be to ask the 0:18:55.440 --> 0:18:59.199 court jointly to enter a judgment of divorce, and that 0:18:59.200 --> 0:19:03.399 would return them to status a single people and most 0:19:03.880 --> 0:19:07.240 spouses will then also tell the court what the terms 0:19:07.240 --> 0:19:10.159 of their settlement are with regard to property and kids 0:19:10.160 --> 0:19:13.399 and support. Here, my guess is they will keep that 0:19:13.560 --> 0:19:19.080 confidential and um not put that in the judgment, so 0:19:19.400 --> 0:19:21.760 we don't get to see that. Uh, and there will 0:19:21.800 --> 0:19:23.520 be no orders on it either. It would just be 0:19:23.560 --> 0:19:27.399 a confidential settlement agreement between the two of them, and 0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:30.439 no one would put it into a court file unless 0:19:30.480 --> 0:19:33.520 someone broke the agreement and needed to be enforced. That's 0:19:33.560 --> 0:19:37.480 typically how these deals are run. So it seems incredibly quick, 0:19:37.600 --> 0:19:42.640 but apparently they were negotiating about it and hired lawyers 0:19:42.680 --> 0:19:45.520 at the beginning of October, so it's taken about a 0:19:45.560 --> 0:19:49.120 month for them to resolve this. It could have taken 0:19:49.160 --> 0:19:54.160 even longer than that. The story started to break about 0:19:54.200 --> 0:19:59.480 the couple having problems, but they may have been experiencing 0:19:59.520 --> 0:20:03.400 these problem is much earlier and working on a divorce 0:20:03.440 --> 0:20:06.960 settlement for quite some time. And for me doing these 0:20:07.000 --> 0:20:11.680 type of cases, that's the ideal situation is to work 0:20:11.760 --> 0:20:15.359 all the details out before the public knows of the split, 0:20:15.880 --> 0:20:19.520 and then um we then announced or the couple announces 0:20:19.560 --> 0:20:22.440 that they're splitting around the same time as we're announcing 0:20:22.480 --> 0:20:26.439 the settlement. So it's possible that they were able to 0:20:26.520 --> 0:20:29.439 arrange all these details in a month, but my my 0:20:29.600 --> 0:20:33.000 suspicion is it would have taken much longer than that 0:20:33.119 --> 0:20:36.119 because there's a lot of complexity when you have that 0:20:36.240 --> 0:20:39.159 much wealth, and also complexity around how they're going to 0:20:39.200 --> 0:20:42.200 share time with their kids in a way that's acceptable 0:20:42.400 --> 0:20:45.080 and best for the children. So to think that they 0:20:45.080 --> 0:20:48.240 did all that in a month is unlikely. One of 0:20:48.240 --> 0:20:51.480 the most controversial parts of a divorce is often who'll 0:20:51.520 --> 0:20:54.359 get custody of the children. Well, they both said they 0:20:54.400 --> 0:20:59.600 agreed to join custody, and she said we'll continue co parenting. 0:21:00.200 --> 0:21:03.000 Do you think it's that's all it says joint custody 0:21:03.080 --> 0:21:05.879 or there is a lot more about times and places, 0:21:05.960 --> 0:21:10.480 etcetera in the final agreement. So joint custody is a 0:21:10.600 --> 0:21:13.760 very broad term which could mean a lot of different things. 0:21:13.560 --> 0:21:17.760 It certainly does not always mean equal time, and in 0:21:17.880 --> 0:21:21.560 most cases we parents don't equally share time with their children. 0:21:21.800 --> 0:21:25.120 It's it's gonna be very difficult to do that when 0:21:25.800 --> 0:21:28.840 one or both parents are working a lot, and children 0:21:28.880 --> 0:21:31.520 also sometimes want to have a home base and they 0:21:31.600 --> 0:21:34.560 just want to have a place where they're regularly staying, 0:21:34.680 --> 0:21:37.679 and then they just spend substantial time with the other parents. 0:21:38.480 --> 0:21:42.680 So here Tom is working a lot and that takes 0:21:42.760 --> 0:21:48.800 him away from Florida often, so you know, he couldn't 0:21:49.000 --> 0:21:53.280 have the hands on parenting at least while he's engaged 0:21:53.320 --> 0:21:57.480 in that work schedule that a parent who works locally 0:21:57.560 --> 0:21:59.720 could have. So there's going to have to be some 0:21:59.800 --> 0:22:02.439 give and take between the couple, And it sounds like 0:22:02.560 --> 0:22:06.920 they've achieved or worked out out so that um when 0:22:07.800 --> 0:22:11.000 Tom is away, obviously the kids would be with Gazelle, 0:22:11.160 --> 0:22:14.639 but then hopefully when Tom is in town that he 0:22:14.680 --> 0:22:17.040 would have that time to kind of offset it to 0:22:17.160 --> 0:22:21.360 keep the relationship going. And it might surprise some that 0:22:21.440 --> 0:22:25.240 Buncheon is worth almost twice as much reportedly according to 0:22:25.320 --> 0:22:30.359 Celebrity net Worth as Brady is. What would a prenup cover? Generally, 0:22:30.920 --> 0:22:34.359 I would anticipate that this couple had a premarital agreement 0:22:34.480 --> 0:22:38.760 because both of them brought significant wealth into the marriage, 0:22:39.359 --> 0:22:43.240 and most of these prenups for a couple like this 0:22:43.760 --> 0:22:47.160 would say that they're each going to keep their own 0:22:47.240 --> 0:22:51.879 premarital property, and any property that either of them acquires 0:22:51.960 --> 0:22:55.840 during marriage would be their own, and there might not 0:22:55.880 --> 0:23:01.080 be any shared property unless they decide to take title 0:23:01.200 --> 0:23:04.840 to let's stay at home family residents jointly, than they 0:23:04.840 --> 0:23:08.440 would make that their joint property. But many times these 0:23:08.760 --> 0:23:14.040 marriages between two celebs will involve a complete separate estate 0:23:14.119 --> 0:23:17.320 for each one of them, and I can't imagine that 0:23:17.359 --> 0:23:21.040 there would be any spousal supporter alimony here. There could 0:23:21.040 --> 0:23:23.800 be child support, but again it you know, at these 0:23:23.880 --> 0:23:28.160 levels of wealth, nobody needs any money, and in a way, 0:23:28.200 --> 0:23:30.800 that makes it a lot easier to solve these cases 0:23:30.840 --> 0:23:35.840 because the money is not scarce and we're low asset cases, 0:23:35.880 --> 0:23:39.440 which most families. You know, it's defined is not having 0:23:39.560 --> 0:23:42.399 a lot of assets to split maybe a house and 0:23:42.440 --> 0:23:45.560 a retirement account. It's very difficult. Those two me are 0:23:45.600 --> 0:23:48.520 the scariest cases because you know, there's not going to 0:23:48.600 --> 0:23:51.159 be enough money to go around in that family to 0:23:51.880 --> 0:23:55.120 maintain the standard of living that they had together. Because 0:23:55.160 --> 0:23:57.720 they're now living in two households on the same amount 0:23:57.720 --> 0:24:00.440