WEBVTT - Dayna Frank 0:00:08.680 --> 0:00:12.160 Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Leftstets podcast. My 0:00:12.240 --> 0:00:16.640 guest today is Dana Frank, President and CEO of First Avenue, 0:00:17.160 --> 0:00:22.120 also president of the board of NIVA, the National Independent 0:00:22.440 --> 0:00:27.560 Venue Association. So Dan and tell me about this new 0:00:27.680 --> 0:00:30.920 legislation about ticketing, the Fans First Act. 0:00:32.640 --> 0:00:34.440 Thanks, Bob, I'm excited to be here. 0:00:35.120 --> 0:00:39.279 We have introduced at the end of twenty twenty three 0:00:39.320 --> 0:00:43.720 the Fans First Act, led by Senators Cornyn and Kloeshar 0:00:44.040 --> 0:00:46.640 with Senators Luhn, Welsh. 0:00:46.520 --> 0:00:47.680 Wicker and Blackburn. 0:00:48.400 --> 0:00:53.720 It's a real, no nonsense, no brainer ticketing legislation that 0:00:54.360 --> 0:00:56.560 you know, attempts to get tickets into the hands of 0:00:56.600 --> 0:01:00.680 real fans at fair prices and to cut down on 0:01:00.720 --> 0:01:03.880 some of the predatory and deceptive practices and has some 0:01:03.880 --> 0:01:07.240 transparent measures that everyone seems to like, like all in 0:01:07.319 --> 0:01:12.120 pricing and reinforces the Bots Act, and is one step 0:01:12.240 --> 0:01:15.520 of the puzzle that will go a long way towards 0:01:15.560 --> 0:01:19.440 really protecting our fans and making sure that people who 0:01:19.480 --> 0:01:21.520 want to go to the concerts actually get the tickets. 0:01:22.080 --> 0:01:24.039 You say, one piece of the puzzle. What might the 0:01:24.080 --> 0:01:24.880 other pieces be? 0:01:26.120 --> 0:01:29.760 Oh, there's a number of different legislative solutions, you know, 0:01:29.760 --> 0:01:34.319 in terms of ticketing, and you know, everyone after Taylor 0:01:34.360 --> 0:01:36.640 Swift last year, seems to think they're an expert in ticketing, 0:01:36.959 --> 0:01:40.759 and so a lot of folks had their own, you know, solutions, 0:01:40.800 --> 0:01:44.199 you know. So this is what we think is a 0:01:44.240 --> 0:01:47.280 bipartisan kind of no brainer, first. 0:01:47.080 --> 0:01:47.840 Piece of the puzzle. 0:01:48.760 --> 0:01:52.440 So tell me about some of the elements in the act, right. 0:01:52.360 --> 0:01:56.680 So first, we have all in pricing with itemization, which 0:01:56.760 --> 0:01:59.000 is important I think in our industry and with the 0:01:59.120 --> 0:02:02.440 artist groups, so that fans know, yes, what is the 0:02:02.440 --> 0:02:04.520 total price they're going to pay for the ticket, but 0:02:04.600 --> 0:02:07.360 also what are the fees and you know, what's the 0:02:07.400 --> 0:02:09.800 face value and what's the artist charging for the tickets. 0:02:10.760 --> 0:02:14.239 And then we also have some protections against predatory and 0:02:14.240 --> 0:02:21.240 deceptive practices like I deceptive websites and folks that are 0:02:21.280 --> 0:02:24.560 creating Facebook groups, you know, kind of presuming that they're 0:02:24.600 --> 0:02:27.160 the official ticket sellers or the artists when they're not. 0:02:28.200 --> 0:02:30.120 We have some reinforcements to the Bots Act. 0:02:30.680 --> 0:02:31.440 We have. 0:02:33.320 --> 0:02:35.800 An opt in solution so when people buy on the 0:02:35.840 --> 0:02:39.240 secondary market that they can opt in to receive communications 0:02:39.240 --> 0:02:41.919 from the artists and from the ticket sellers directly. So 0:02:41.960 --> 0:02:45.440 in terms of canceled shows or moved times. You know, 0:02:45.440 --> 0:02:48.400 it's a huge problem where we're hosting a show, we 0:02:48.440 --> 0:02:51.520 don't know sometimes forty to fifty percent of the ticket 0:02:51.520 --> 0:02:53.400 buyers who are actually coming to the show, so we 0:02:53.440 --> 0:02:56.400 have no way of communicating any kind of changes in 0:02:56.440 --> 0:02:59.800 the shows with them. And so we also have a 0:02:59.840 --> 0:03:02.200 study that would go more in depth into some of 0:03:02.200 --> 0:03:06.680 the other issues within ticketing, like you know, how many 0:03:07.840 --> 0:03:10.400 how many tickets that are resold on the secondary market, 0:03:10.639 --> 0:03:13.480 how many of those are by brokers, and how many 0:03:13.480 --> 0:03:15.040 of those are by folks that just can't get a 0:03:15.040 --> 0:03:16.320 babysitter and can't go to the show. 0:03:17.320 --> 0:03:20.840 Okay, let's try to drill a little deeper. So in 0:03:20.960 --> 0:03:25.400 terms of deceptive advertising, let's say your tickets are on 0:03:25.480 --> 0:03:28.919 ticket Master. Just to make it simple, when you Google frequently, 0:03:29.000 --> 0:03:32.240 that's not the first hit you get something from a 0:03:32.240 --> 0:03:35.360 broker or something. So how would this legislation address that 0:03:35.520 --> 0:03:36.000 if at all? 0:03:37.080 --> 0:03:39.600 Yep, Yeah, So it has a ban on using IP 0:03:39.960 --> 0:03:45.680 either venue or artist or promoter IP in organic search 0:03:45.840 --> 0:03:50.119 and advertising and promotion. So you know, if sometimes you'll 0:03:50.160 --> 0:03:54.080 Google and you'll see the venue or the official website. 0:03:54.120 --> 0:03:56.840 Sometimes it comes down even on like the second page 0:03:56.880 --> 0:04:00.440 of Google and so the first six, seven and eight 0:04:00.520 --> 0:04:04.600 hits are all resellers. And so this would say in 0:04:04.760 --> 0:04:09.720 organic searches, promotions marketing, things like those Facebook groups that 0:04:09.920 --> 0:04:13.240 folks create and say, oh, get your official tickets here, Well, 0:04:13.400 --> 0:04:15.880 that wouldn't be allowed anymore. And there's pretty stiff penalties 0:04:16.279 --> 0:04:18.440 when it comes to enforcing the act so that it 0:04:18.560 --> 0:04:20.000 actually is 'enforceable. 0:04:20.320 --> 0:04:25.240 Let's talk very practically. So now I'm searching for tickets, 0:04:25.680 --> 0:04:30.320 will I see the authorized reseller first? Or is it 0:04:30.480 --> 0:04:33.400 just that the other ones it will be clearer that 0:04:33.480 --> 0:04:36.560 their secondary market? What will I actually see if I'm 0:04:36.600 --> 0:04:39.039 a relatively unsophisticated buyer. 0:04:40.080 --> 0:04:44.960 So you will still see the Google ad words the 0:04:45.400 --> 0:04:50.520 purchased words first, and so that might be a secondary seller. However, 0:04:51.600 --> 0:04:53.839 if you know, I don't want to presume that everybody 0:04:53.920 --> 0:04:59.280 has their SEO optimization down, but the first or second 0:04:59.320 --> 0:05:03.520 should be the official seller below that adds the purchase ads. 0:05:04.080 --> 0:05:08.080 Okay, tell us a little bit more about secondaries not 0:05:08.279 --> 0:05:10.400 being able to use primary ip. 0:05:12.720 --> 0:05:15.799 Yeah, so things like like I said, those Facebook groups, 0:05:15.920 --> 0:05:20.719 or things like using the venue name to advertise or 0:05:20.839 --> 0:05:23.880 the artist's name to advertise you know, we have to 0:05:24.360 --> 0:05:29.400 allow for them to actually advertise what it is they're selling, right, 0:05:29.440 --> 0:05:31.279 they have to be able to use that name. But 0:05:31.360 --> 0:05:34.160 in terms of like advertising and promotions, that would. 0:05:33.920 --> 0:05:34.600 Not be allowable. 0:05:34.880 --> 0:05:36.080 Can you give me an example. 0:05:37.360 --> 0:05:42.400 Yeah, you know, if they're sending out an email blast 0:05:42.440 --> 0:05:44.559 in the header, it's like buy all of your first 0:05:44.560 --> 0:05:47.359 avenue tickets here, right, So what would be allowable is 0:05:47.360 --> 0:05:49.760 like a ligne listing and a description of the actual product, 0:05:50.160 --> 0:05:53.440 but not the use of that IP in overall marketing 0:05:53.480 --> 0:05:54.400 and promotions. 0:05:55.360 --> 0:06:01.760 Okay, Now you talked about enforcement, about the previous Botch 0:06:01.839 --> 0:06:05.760 Act enforcement there and what would be different today. 0:06:06.880 --> 0:06:11.239 Right, So you know what when we first started thinking 0:06:11.240 --> 0:06:15.600 about legislative solutions for ticketing issues, what we heard really 0:06:15.600 --> 0:06:18.120 clearly is there has to be pretty stiff monetary penalties 0:06:18.680 --> 0:06:22.880 because anyone from state ags to official you know, government officials, 0:06:23.839 --> 0:06:30.839 without financial penalties, there's very little motivation or resources to 0:06:30.920 --> 0:06:33.720 go after a perpetrator. So we have in the bill, 0:06:33.839 --> 0:06:36.520 it's believed, don't quote me on this, I believe it's 0:06:36.520 --> 0:06:38.760 one thousand dollars a day up to ten thousand dollars 0:06:39.240 --> 0:06:44.559 per ticket for the violation. And so that's a pretty stiff. 0:06:44.560 --> 0:06:47.160 So if you're looking at the a violation of an 0:06:47.160 --> 0:06:50.680 overall website with thousands of tickets, that number gets to 0:06:50.680 --> 0:06:53.680 be pretty pretty strict pretty quickly. 0:06:54.960 --> 0:06:59.159 Okay, It's one thing to have the law on the books, 0:06:59.360 --> 0:07:03.000 it's another thing to have it enforced. You know, in 0:07:03.080 --> 0:07:06.400 terms of crime, usually ticketing is far from the top. 0:07:06.960 --> 0:07:10.160 So what would ensure that law enforcement would actually act 0:07:10.240 --> 0:07:10.600 on this? 0:07:12.760 --> 0:07:13.920 That is a great question. 0:07:14.000 --> 0:07:15.760 I think it's going to be the loud voice of 0:07:15.760 --> 0:07:19.400 our industry having this law and having the financial penalties 0:07:19.920 --> 0:07:23.040 and having you know, also in the law there's a 0:07:23.040 --> 0:07:26.560 website that anyone can go to report the violations and 0:07:26.680 --> 0:07:27.680 really making. 0:07:27.400 --> 0:07:28.840 Sure that it is enforced. 0:07:29.720 --> 0:07:32.760 But that's certainly been an issue with every piece of 0:07:32.800 --> 0:07:34.280 ticketing legislation that's passed. 0:07:34.800 --> 0:07:38.240 Okay, so what is the status of the bill down. 0:07:39.760 --> 0:07:43.760 Yep, So we introduced at the end of December. Excited 0:07:43.760 --> 0:07:46.520 to get it introduced. Timing wise, it was like right 0:07:46.560 --> 0:07:50.760 before the recess. So we're actively securing co sponsors. We 0:07:50.880 --> 0:07:55.000 have a number of whom in the hopper and are 0:07:55.680 --> 0:07:59.040 you know, really excited by the momentum and hopefully we'll 0:07:59.040 --> 0:08:03.040 be able to introduce the new co sponsor soon. And 0:08:03.080 --> 0:08:06.280 there's also a piece of legislation in the House called 0:08:06.320 --> 0:08:09.640 the Ticket Act that has the similar provisions of the 0:08:09.640 --> 0:08:12.680 Fans First Act. And also, I forgot to mention spec 0:08:12.760 --> 0:08:16.680 tickets everybody, I think in the industry. You know, if 0:08:16.760 --> 0:08:18.560 you don't know what a spec ticket is, it's when 0:08:19.360 --> 0:08:24.520 they astronomical amounts on the secondary markets twenty thousand dollars, 0:08:24.600 --> 0:08:26.920 ten thousand dollars, maybe even one hundred dollars. 0:08:27.000 --> 0:08:27.760 But it's when. 0:08:28.000 --> 0:08:30.200 Somebody has posted a ticket for sale that doesn't actually 0:08:30.200 --> 0:08:33.680 exist yet, right they're posted before the actual on sale 0:08:33.840 --> 0:08:37.080 or in seats that don't exist, et cetera. So this 0:08:37.120 --> 0:08:40.520 would actually make the practice of spec tickets illegal. It 0:08:40.520 --> 0:08:45.120 would allow for a concierge service, which would allow for 0:08:45.520 --> 0:08:47.400 a consumer, if they can't get online at you know, 0:08:47.440 --> 0:08:50.199 Tuesday at ten am, to be able to come out 0:08:50.240 --> 0:08:53.480 quote unquote hire a broker such to go and secure 0:08:53.480 --> 0:08:55.560 the tickets for them. But the listings would have to 0:08:55.559 --> 0:08:58.840 be separately from tickets, the pricing would have to delineate 0:08:58.880 --> 0:09:02.760 between the sur and the ticket fee. And so excited, 0:09:03.040 --> 0:09:06.040 very excited to ban this much hated practice. 0:09:06.280 --> 0:09:09.800 Okay, let's go back. You know you're very familiar with 0:09:09.840 --> 0:09:14.160 the legislative process. Many people are not. Let's go back 0:09:14.200 --> 0:09:19.600 to the beginning and with Klobatar, who's your state senator, Minnesota? 0:09:19.920 --> 0:09:22.480 How did this legislation come to be? 0:09:24.480 --> 0:09:29.520 So we started seeing after reopening, I would end of 0:09:29.559 --> 0:09:33.400 twenty twenty one, really beginning of twenty twenty two, amongst 0:09:33.440 --> 0:09:36.800 the NEVA folks that are drop rates just weren't really recovering. 0:09:37.520 --> 0:09:39.640 Wait with just a little bit slower because there's a 0:09:39.640 --> 0:09:42.360 lot of things going on. Tell us about NIVA. 0:09:43.880 --> 0:09:47.000 Sure So, NIVA as the National Independent Venue Association, we 0:09:47.160 --> 0:09:53.079 came together late March early April after the COVID shutdowns 0:09:53.120 --> 0:09:56.720 had completely you know, ended our business and our ability 0:09:56.760 --> 0:10:00.439 to generate any revenue whatsoever, and we banded together both 0:10:00.640 --> 0:10:05.880 for knowledge sharing and community and trauma bonding as people 0:10:05.880 --> 0:10:10.160 would say, but also to pass legislation that would allow 0:10:10.240 --> 0:10:12.840 us the resources to ensure that we're able to reopen 0:10:12.920 --> 0:10:16.000 when it was safe to do so. We have, I believe, 0:10:16.040 --> 0:10:21.280 about twelve hundred members in every state, every congressional district, 0:10:21.880 --> 0:10:25.800 ranging from you know, fifty capacity coffee shops all the 0:10:25.800 --> 0:10:31.920 way up to amphitheaters and independent venues that generate the 0:10:31.920 --> 0:10:33.400 majority of the revenue by selling tickets. 0:10:33.400 --> 0:10:34.439 That's the qualifications. 0:10:34.960 --> 0:10:38.079 Okay, how did you end up being the president of 0:10:38.160 --> 0:10:38.920 the board. 0:10:39.920 --> 0:10:41.760 That is a great question. 0:10:43.400 --> 0:10:46.319 I maybe because no one else wanted to do it. 0:10:46.880 --> 0:10:50.800 I was the one that was really passionate about a 0:10:50.800 --> 0:10:53.280 federal bill and kind of led the charge on the 0:10:53.320 --> 0:10:58.640 advocacy effort. And because advocacy really was the first, second, 0:10:58.679 --> 0:11:02.360 and third priority, you know, realizing that there would be 0:11:02.760 --> 0:11:05.120 no venues in which to have an association if we 0:11:05.160 --> 0:11:10.560 didn't get this bill passed. The four other folks that 0:11:10.600 --> 0:11:12.800 were on the board elected me president. 0:11:13.280 --> 0:11:18.120 Okay, let's go back. You're sitting at home, lockdown, there 0:11:18.120 --> 0:11:21.120 are no shows. Tell me about the genesis of Neva 0:11:21.160 --> 0:11:22.040 and your role in it. 0:11:23.040 --> 0:11:26.000 So it was actually Reverend Moose and Marauder that called 0:11:26.040 --> 0:11:29.240 folks together on a town hall I think the first. 0:11:29.520 --> 0:11:31.200 The first one was actually a conference call. I don't 0:11:31.200 --> 0:11:33.600 even know if anyone knew what Zoom was yet, and 0:11:33.679 --> 0:11:36.640 it was I believe, a end of February, first week 0:11:36.679 --> 0:11:41.360 of March, to just hear from from folks in Europe 0:11:41.360 --> 0:11:43.840 what they were seeing and really kind of give a 0:11:43.880 --> 0:11:48.079 warning signal. And so I started joining those early calls 0:11:48.320 --> 0:11:52.079 and then when it went to zoom, seeing the other 0:11:52.160 --> 0:11:56.040 faces on there and realizing that, you know, these are 0:11:56.040 --> 0:12:01.000 all people with families, with lives, with houses, with obligations, 0:12:01.000 --> 0:12:02.960 and we were all going to be out of work 0:12:03.200 --> 0:12:07.680 and in severe debt with absolutely no way to repay 0:12:07.720 --> 0:12:11.000 any of our obligations unless we did something about it. 0:12:12.160 --> 0:12:15.959 Now to what deg we Was there an organization prior 0:12:16.000 --> 0:12:18.439 to this amongst the independents? 0:12:19.040 --> 0:12:20.400 Oh, there was no organization. 0:12:20.920 --> 0:12:24.280 I think, you know, people they would talk about with 0:12:24.520 --> 0:12:26.480 very you know, with guards up. 0:12:27.040 --> 0:12:27.200 You know. 0:12:27.240 --> 0:12:29.200 I kind of made it a habit whenever I traveled, 0:12:29.520 --> 0:12:32.319 I would always reach out to the independent promoter, the 0:12:32.920 --> 0:12:35.360 club owner in town, just to get a tour and 0:12:35.480 --> 0:12:38.280 just to try to learn from them and see what 0:12:38.320 --> 0:12:40.560 they're doing. And I feel like I was always greeted 0:12:40.600 --> 0:12:42.120 with a little bit of like, are you coming into 0:12:42.160 --> 0:12:42.600 my city? 0:12:42.640 --> 0:12:44.760 What do you want to talk to me for? 0:12:45.760 --> 0:12:50.120 And so there was certainly a lot of we knew 0:12:50.120 --> 0:12:52.320 about each other, but I don't think there was a 0:12:52.320 --> 0:12:57.480 lot of you know, knowledge sharing or real kind of 0:12:58.120 --> 0:13:00.559 deep community amongst them. 0:13:01.160 --> 0:13:03.240 And that changed real fast. 0:13:03.760 --> 0:13:07.000 Okay, so now everybody's on a zoom. How do you 0:13:07.200 --> 0:13:12.360 organize and how do you set an agenda. 0:13:12.160 --> 0:13:16.640 Very messily. Those early meetings were they were pretty frantic, 0:13:16.800 --> 0:13:22.560 pretty desperate, and the way it came together it really 0:13:23.240 --> 0:13:26.400 self organized. And I think when you're in a situation 0:13:26.480 --> 0:13:29.280 that is, you know a little bit like war, a 0:13:29.320 --> 0:13:34.840 little bit like there's no alternative. It really people really 0:13:34.840 --> 0:13:36.920 wanted to help and there wasn't a whole lot of 0:13:37.600 --> 0:13:41.080 you know, arguments or dissension dissensions. It really was like, Okay, 0:13:41.120 --> 0:13:41.680 we need to do this. 0:13:41.720 --> 0:13:43.480 Who's going to do it? Great, you're going to do it. 0:13:44.320 --> 0:13:45.280 And also, you. 0:13:45.320 --> 0:13:49.320 Know, again kudos to Rever Moose who was our early 0:13:49.360 --> 0:13:52.640 executive director and how real from World Cafe. 0:13:52.720 --> 0:13:54.400 Why don't you tell people who he is? 0:13:55.280 --> 0:13:59.160 He has a marketing firm out of New York called Marauder, 0:13:59.280 --> 0:14:02.560 and he was he brought Independent Venue Week across from 0:14:02.600 --> 0:14:05.240 the UK, and so he was the just again the 0:14:05.240 --> 0:14:09.080 perfect person to really gather everybody because he didn't have 0:14:09.120 --> 0:14:12.520 a venue so wasn't seen, you know, as a competitor, 0:14:12.800 --> 0:14:16.560 but also was already in communication with all the independent 0:14:16.640 --> 0:14:18.680 venues in town due to independent Venueek. 0:14:19.600 --> 0:14:24.240 Okay, so now everybody's talking, how do you set the agenda? 0:14:25.440 --> 0:14:28.440 So really it's centered around we need to get this 0:14:28.480 --> 0:14:30.320 bill passed. Okay, what do we need to do to 0:14:30.320 --> 0:14:31.080 get a bill passed? 0:14:31.240 --> 0:14:33.680 Well, well, a little bit slower. So I mean, I 0:14:33.720 --> 0:14:38.480 remember being on the email thread and basically it's about 0:14:38.920 --> 0:14:42.280 getting money to the venues and the people who worked there. 0:14:42.840 --> 0:14:45.800 But how did you decide you were going to have legislation, 0:14:45.920 --> 0:14:47.480 How did you decide what was going to be in 0:14:47.520 --> 0:14:49.600 the legislation, How did you decide who's going to be 0:14:49.600 --> 0:14:50.280 the first mover. 0:14:52.040 --> 0:14:56.000 So we weren't even thinking legislation at the beginning. We 0:14:56.040 --> 0:14:59.400 were just thinking, Okay, there's going to be another Care's bill. 0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:02.760 We want to get in that Cares bill because we 0:15:02.800 --> 0:15:05.720 had read the first Cares bill and saw, oh wait, 0:15:05.760 --> 0:15:07.560 there's a separate provision for restaurants. 0:15:07.960 --> 0:15:09.080 So that's how we knew it was possible. 0:15:09.120 --> 0:15:10.880 We're like, if they're doing something for restaurants, they can 0:15:10.920 --> 0:15:14.240 do something for venues because we don't have takeout. You know, 0:15:14.280 --> 0:15:17.320 they went down thirty forty percent, we were down to 0:15:17.480 --> 0:15:20.360 zero percent. So we're like, we need something in that bill. Okay, 0:15:20.360 --> 0:15:21.880 how do you get something in a bill? You got 0:15:21.920 --> 0:15:25.320 to hire a lobbyist. So I called around to the folks. 0:15:25.480 --> 0:15:26.960 I knew who might be well, wha, wha, wha, whoa 0:15:27.000 --> 0:15:30.280 a little bit slower. How did you become the point person? 0:15:32.160 --> 0:15:36.480 I think I was. I that's a really good question. 0:15:37.480 --> 0:15:41.000 Maybe just because I was super passionate and you know, 0:15:41.160 --> 0:15:44.240 making a lot of the calls and had a vision 0:15:44.360 --> 0:15:49.560 and was determined to really get this thing done, and 0:15:49.640 --> 0:15:53.360 so just I think de facto fell into that role 0:15:53.400 --> 0:15:54.080 of quarterback. 0:15:54.720 --> 0:15:58.920 Oh okay, So basically everybody did they say, Dana, you go, 0:15:59.640 --> 0:16:01.800 or all all of a sudden, everybody's doing different stuff 0:16:01.800 --> 0:16:04.400 and they said, well, Dana's doing stuff, let's fall behind her. 0:16:05.600 --> 0:16:07.800 I think at that time, no one really knew what 0:16:07.960 --> 0:16:08.280 to do. 0:16:08.760 --> 0:16:11.480 So when somebody came, you know, with a plan and 0:16:11.480 --> 0:16:13.400 with Okay, this is what we're going to do, it 0:16:13.520 --> 0:16:17.240 really you know again, like I said, everybody was really 0:16:17.960 --> 0:16:22.080 willing to contribute and willing to contribute where they were 0:16:22.080 --> 0:16:26.240 needed and with what was necessary at the time. From 0:16:26.240 --> 0:16:30.000 the initial IVW meetings, there were five of us that 0:16:30.040 --> 0:16:33.240 were elected to the board, and so each of us 0:16:33.240 --> 0:16:35.920 had I think, different interests, and like I said, my 0:16:35.960 --> 0:16:40.400 interest was in advocacy and in getting some federal support 0:16:40.560 --> 0:16:43.640 for the venues, and so I became the Advocacy Chair, 0:16:43.960 --> 0:16:48.480 and we took from the initial emails of people that 0:16:48.560 --> 0:16:52.680 signed up for NIVA, through again the great leadership of 0:16:52.800 --> 0:16:57.320 Audrey Fick Schaeffer and Gary Witt, I just sent a 0:16:57.440 --> 0:16:59.720 mass email to anyone who said they were interested in lobbying, 0:16:59.720 --> 0:17:04.440 and so we formed the Advocacy Committee, and then we 0:17:04.640 --> 0:17:08.840 broke it down into states because part of the idea 0:17:08.920 --> 0:17:13.640 behind going for federal support was, you know, at First Avenue, 0:17:13.720 --> 0:17:16.040 we know what we mean in Minnesota, and we know 0:17:16.080 --> 0:17:19.480 the relationships we have locally. You know, we have had 0:17:19.920 --> 0:17:23.680 nothing federally, but we knew locally help beloved and how 0:17:23.720 --> 0:17:27.520 people would be really, really interested and anxious to help us. 0:17:27.600 --> 0:17:29.520 And so we just said, you know, there's First Avenues 0:17:29.560 --> 0:17:32.600 in every city that had these kinds of relationships. So 0:17:32.640 --> 0:17:34.520 we broke it down into a priest and captain system 0:17:34.680 --> 0:17:37.720 and said, Okay, you know, we'll have a few of 0:17:37.800 --> 0:17:42.000 us that are kind of overseeing the national strategy, but everybody. 0:17:41.480 --> 0:17:42.120 On the ground. 0:17:43.000 --> 0:17:47.480 The really main commitment was to get your local congress 0:17:47.480 --> 0:17:51.120 person and your senator invested in our cause and. 0:17:51.080 --> 0:17:51.840 Wanting to help us. 0:17:52.640 --> 0:17:55.119 So how did you end up hiring a lobbyist? 0:17:56.440 --> 0:18:00.520 We got very early financial support from ce tickets. We 0:18:00.560 --> 0:18:03.200 had nothing, right, We had a lot of people and 0:18:03.280 --> 0:18:05.800 a lot of people with time and willingness to work, 0:18:05.920 --> 0:18:09.119 but we had no resources whatsoever. So we got some 0:18:09.280 --> 0:18:13.720 early financial support. There were about six of us that 0:18:13.880 --> 0:18:17.280 gathered as the you know, kind of de facto selection 0:18:17.600 --> 0:18:19.080 or search committee. 0:18:19.720 --> 0:18:22.560 We each kind of reached out to people that we knew. 0:18:22.760 --> 0:18:26.040 I mean, you know, at the beginning, I can't really 0:18:26.320 --> 0:18:30.800 kind of overstate how how frantic and how hard everyone 0:18:30.840 --> 0:18:33.919 worked and what just kind of a. 0:18:33.280 --> 0:18:34.320 Desperate time it was. 0:18:34.400 --> 0:18:36.160 But it was like, okay, we need a federal lobbyist. 0:18:36.760 --> 0:18:39.120 I called to the you know, kind of bigger promoters 0:18:39.119 --> 0:18:42.399 that I thought might be doing something in DC. No 0:18:42.440 --> 0:18:44.080 one had a federal lobbyist. So I was like, wait, 0:18:44.359 --> 0:18:47.160 I don't know anyone in DC. I'm from Minnesota. 0:18:47.200 --> 0:18:47.760 What am I going to do? 0:18:47.760 --> 0:18:49.840 And I'm like, wait, then, I'm thirty club And so 0:18:49.880 --> 0:18:52.359 I happened to have been sitting next to Audrey Fixschaeffer 0:18:52.359 --> 0:18:55.159 at a dinner a few nights a few months before 0:18:55.520 --> 0:18:57.280 and just sent her a Facebook message saying, Hey, you're 0:18:57.280 --> 0:19:00.240 a DC do you know a lobbyist? So, you know, 0:19:00.320 --> 0:19:04.880 she joined up and and we really just you know again, 0:19:04.920 --> 0:19:08.520 everybody reached into their networks, came up with the names 0:19:08.560 --> 0:19:11.800 that we could find, and I think are the lobbyist 0:19:11.800 --> 0:19:14.200 that we found Ach and Gump the best, Casey Higgins 0:19:14.240 --> 0:19:16.320 and it began the best lobbyist in the entire world. 0:19:17.640 --> 0:19:21.080 We found them because somebody on a group chain I 0:19:21.119 --> 0:19:24.560 was in said that Paul Ryan's office was giving PPP advice. 0:19:25.160 --> 0:19:26.840 So I was like, well, I can't call Paul Paul 0:19:26.920 --> 0:19:29.639 Ryan's office. I'm from Minneapolis, but I know somebody from Milwaukee. 0:19:30.440 --> 0:19:32.600 So Gary Witt, you know, called up Paul Ryan's office 0:19:32.640 --> 0:19:36.160 and was referred to Casey Higgins. Uh, and that's how 0:19:36.160 --> 0:19:37.520 we we got to Casey. 0:19:38.280 --> 0:19:40.399 Tell us about Casey and his firm. 0:19:41.440 --> 0:19:43.200 Mm. Her firm is. 0:19:44.680 --> 0:19:49.280 No, No, So they're a huge, you know top I 0:19:49.520 --> 0:19:52.680 don't know that much about law firms, but a top 0:19:52.720 --> 0:19:57.760 firm and really became invested in our cause. 0:19:57.880 --> 0:19:58.480 And I think how. 0:19:58.400 --> 0:20:02.240 Pastora law firm lobbying firm, Well. 0:20:02.119 --> 0:20:06.080 The the lobbyists are are lawyers, so it's a law 0:20:06.080 --> 0:20:07.040 firm that also has us. 0:20:07.080 --> 0:20:08.560 So all the lobbyists are lawyers. 0:20:09.359 --> 0:20:14.520 I might be overstating that, but I believe most of 0:20:14.520 --> 0:20:17.160 the major lobbying firms are law firms. 0:20:17.280 --> 0:20:22.480 Okay, and so this law firm they're representing NIVA. How 0:20:22.480 --> 0:20:23.919 many other clients do they have? 0:20:25.119 --> 0:20:25.600 Oh? 0:20:26.040 --> 0:20:31.200 Oh a hundreds? But thank god the conflict check checked out. 0:20:31.760 --> 0:20:33.760 So that was very fortunate for us. 0:20:34.160 --> 0:20:36.359 And so then what kind of an agreement do you 0:20:36.400 --> 0:20:38.200 make with the lobbying firm? 0:20:38.880 --> 0:20:41.560 Yeah, yeah, So we had a monthly retainer and they 0:20:41.600 --> 0:20:44.280 got to work immediately, I think from our first call, 0:20:45.040 --> 0:20:48.560 you know, really guiding the strategy and setting out how 0:20:48.600 --> 0:20:51.760 we were going to tell our stories. I I'll never forget. 0:20:51.800 --> 0:20:54.720 You know, they did a lobbying one oh one for 0:20:55.560 --> 0:20:58.680 NIVA members, like how to talk to your member of Congress, 0:20:58.760 --> 0:21:01.280 you know, because most folks had never been involved in 0:21:01.359 --> 0:21:04.880 anything like this. You know, we're used to hosting fundraisers 0:21:04.960 --> 0:21:08.520 maybe you know, talking to our city council people, but 0:21:08.960 --> 0:21:11.840 you know, in terms of federal lobbying, it was all new. 0:21:13.200 --> 0:21:17.040 So, okay, how do you talk to a congress person, 0:21:18.920 --> 0:21:20.280 you know, like a real person. 0:21:20.760 --> 0:21:22.680 It would it's pretty surprising. 0:21:23.840 --> 0:21:28.840 And sharing our stories and I was going to say fortunately, 0:21:28.880 --> 0:21:31.880 but really it's unfortunately. You know, we had kind of 0:21:32.040 --> 0:21:36.040 the most authentic SOB story of all sab stories. You know, 0:21:36.760 --> 0:21:40.080 during the pandemic, people were cashing out there for one case, 0:21:40.160 --> 0:21:40.760 they were. 0:21:40.920 --> 0:21:42.359 Remortgaging their houses. 0:21:42.560 --> 0:21:48.520 They were doing everything imaginable and anything they could to 0:21:48.640 --> 0:21:51.119 just try to hang on one more month, two more months. 0:21:52.040 --> 0:21:54.680 So you know, those were the stories that we told. 0:21:54.760 --> 0:21:56.760 And on top of that the impact that we have 0:21:56.800 --> 0:21:59.960 in our communities, and we were, you know, really fortunate 0:22:00.160 --> 0:22:04.359 that we had built. You know, almost every independent venue 0:22:04.680 --> 0:22:10.359 has built really strong, deep rooted community relationships. So you know, 0:22:10.480 --> 0:22:13.760 I was on a call with a congress person from 0:22:14.480 --> 0:22:19.800 rural or yeah, the valley in California, and so it 0:22:19.840 --> 0:22:22.520 wasn't just the historic theater on the call. It was 0:22:22.560 --> 0:22:25.359 also the director of the Chamber of Commerce, and the 0:22:25.359 --> 0:22:28.680 local hotel and the restaurant next door, and they were 0:22:28.720 --> 0:22:31.880 all advocating for saveer stages and for helping the theater 0:22:32.600 --> 0:22:35.520 because without the theater they wouldn't have any business either. 0:22:42.520 --> 0:22:46.680