Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Leftstets podcast. My
Speaker 1: guest today is Dana Frank, President and CEO of First Avenue,
Speaker 1: also president of the board of NIVA, the National Independent
Speaker 1: Venue Association. So Dan and tell me about this new
Speaker 1: legislation about ticketing, the Fans First Act.
Speaker 2: Thanks, Bob, I'm excited to be here.
Speaker 3: We have introduced at the end of twenty twenty three
Speaker 3: the Fans First Act, led by Senators Cornyn and Kloeshar
Speaker 3: with Senators Luhn, Welsh.
Speaker 2: Wicker and Blackburn.
Speaker 3: It's a real, no nonsense, no brainer ticketing legislation that
Speaker 3: you know, attempts to get tickets into the hands of
Speaker 3: real fans at fair prices and to cut down on
Speaker 3: some of the predatory and deceptive practices and has some
Speaker 3: transparent measures that everyone seems to like, like all in
Speaker 3: pricing and reinforces the Bots Act, and is one step
Speaker 3: of the puzzle that will go a long way towards
Speaker 3: really protecting our fans and making sure that people who
Speaker 3: want to go to the concerts actually get the tickets.
Speaker 1: You say, one piece of the puzzle. What might the
Speaker 1: other pieces be?
Speaker 3: Oh, there's a number of different legislative solutions, you know,
Speaker 3: in terms of ticketing, and you know, everyone after Taylor
Speaker 3: Swift last year, seems to think they're an expert in ticketing,
Speaker 3: and so a lot of folks had their own, you know, solutions,
Speaker 3: you know. So this is what we think is a
Speaker 3: bipartisan kind of no brainer, first.
Speaker 2: Piece of the puzzle.
Speaker 1: So tell me about some of the elements in the act, right.
Speaker 3: So first, we have all in pricing with itemization, which
Speaker 3: is important I think in our industry and with the
Speaker 3: artist groups, so that fans know, yes, what is the
Speaker 3: total price they're going to pay for the ticket, but
Speaker 3: also what are the fees and you know, what's the
Speaker 3: face value and what's the artist charging for the tickets.
Speaker 3: And then we also have some protections against predatory and
Speaker 3: deceptive practices like I deceptive websites and folks that are
Speaker 3: creating Facebook groups, you know, kind of presuming that they're
Speaker 3: the official ticket sellers or the artists when they're not.
Speaker 3: We have some reinforcements to the Bots Act.
Speaker 2: We have.
Speaker 3: An opt in solution so when people buy on the
Speaker 3: secondary market that they can opt in to receive communications
Speaker 3: from the artists and from the ticket sellers directly. So
Speaker 3: in terms of canceled shows or moved times. You know,
Speaker 3: it's a huge problem where we're hosting a show, we
Speaker 3: don't know sometimes forty to fifty percent of the ticket
Speaker 3: buyers who are actually coming to the show, so we
Speaker 3: have no way of communicating any kind of changes in
Speaker 3: the shows with them. And so we also have a
Speaker 3: study that would go more in depth into some of
Speaker 3: the other issues within ticketing, like you know, how many
Speaker 3: how many tickets that are resold on the secondary market,
Speaker 3: how many of those are by brokers, and how many
Speaker 3: of those are by folks that just can't get a
Speaker 3: babysitter and can't go to the show.
Speaker 1: Okay, let's try to drill a little deeper. So in
Speaker 1: terms of deceptive advertising, let's say your tickets are on
Speaker 1: ticket Master. Just to make it simple, when you Google frequently,
Speaker 1: that's not the first hit you get something from a
Speaker 1: broker or something. So how would this legislation address that
Speaker 1: if at all?
Speaker 3: Yep, Yeah, So it has a ban on using IP
Speaker 3: either venue or artist or promoter IP in organic search
Speaker 3: and advertising and promotion. So you know, if sometimes you'll
Speaker 3: Google and you'll see the venue or the official website.
Speaker 3: Sometimes it comes down even on like the second page
Speaker 3: of Google and so the first six, seven and eight
Speaker 3: hits are all resellers. And so this would say in
Speaker 3: organic searches, promotions marketing, things like those Facebook groups that
Speaker 3: folks create and say, oh, get your official tickets here, Well,
Speaker 3: that wouldn't be allowed anymore. And there's pretty stiff penalties
Speaker 3: when it comes to enforcing the act so that it
Speaker 3: actually is 'enforceable.
Speaker 1: Let's talk very practically. So now I'm searching for tickets,
Speaker 1: will I see the authorized reseller first? Or is it
Speaker 1: just that the other ones it will be clearer that
Speaker 1: their secondary market? What will I actually see if I'm
Speaker 1: a relatively unsophisticated buyer.
Speaker 3: So you will still see the Google ad words the
Speaker 3: purchased words first, and so that might be a secondary seller. However,
Speaker 3: if you know, I don't want to presume that everybody
Speaker 3: has their SEO optimization down, but the first or second
Speaker 3: should be the official seller below that adds the purchase ads.
Speaker 1: Okay, tell us a little bit more about secondaries not
Speaker 1: being able to use primary ip.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so things like like I said, those Facebook groups,
Speaker 3: or things like using the venue name to advertise or
Speaker 3: the artist's name to advertise you know, we have to
Speaker 3: allow for them to actually advertise what it is they're selling, right,
Speaker 3: they have to be able to use that name. But
Speaker 3: in terms of like advertising and promotions, that would.
Speaker 2: Not be allowable.
Speaker 1: Can you give me an example.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, if they're sending out an email blast
Speaker 3: in the header, it's like buy all of your first
Speaker 3: avenue tickets here, right, So what would be allowable is
Speaker 3: like a ligne listing and a description of the actual product,
Speaker 3: but not the use of that IP in overall marketing
Speaker 3: and promotions.
Speaker 1: Okay, Now you talked about enforcement, about the previous Botch
Speaker 1: Act enforcement there and what would be different today.
Speaker 3: Right, So you know what when we first started thinking
Speaker 3: about legislative solutions for ticketing issues, what we heard really
Speaker 3: clearly is there has to be pretty stiff monetary penalties
Speaker 3: because anyone from state ags to official you know, government officials,
Speaker 3: without financial penalties, there's very little motivation or resources to
Speaker 3: go after a perpetrator. So we have in the bill,
Speaker 3: it's believed, don't quote me on this, I believe it's
Speaker 3: one thousand dollars a day up to ten thousand dollars
Speaker 3: per ticket for the violation. And so that's a pretty stiff.
Speaker 3: So if you're looking at the a violation of an
Speaker 3: overall website with thousands of tickets, that number gets to
Speaker 3: be pretty pretty strict pretty quickly.
Speaker 1: Okay, It's one thing to have the law on the books,
Speaker 1: it's another thing to have it enforced. You know, in
Speaker 1: terms of crime, usually ticketing is far from the top.
Speaker 1: So what would ensure that law enforcement would actually act
Speaker 1: on this?
Speaker 2: That is a great question.
Speaker 3: I think it's going to be the loud voice of
Speaker 3: our industry having this law and having the financial penalties
Speaker 3: and having you know, also in the law there's a
Speaker 3: website that anyone can go to report the violations and
Speaker 3: really making.
Speaker 2: Sure that it is enforced.
Speaker 3: But that's certainly been an issue with every piece of
Speaker 3: ticketing legislation that's passed.
Speaker 1: Okay, so what is the status of the bill down.
Speaker 3: Yep, So we introduced at the end of December. Excited
Speaker 3: to get it introduced. Timing wise, it was like right
Speaker 3: before the recess. So we're actively securing co sponsors. We
Speaker 3: have a number of whom in the hopper and are
Speaker 3: you know, really excited by the momentum and hopefully we'll
Speaker 3: be able to introduce the new co sponsor soon. And
Speaker 3: there's also a piece of legislation in the House called
Speaker 3: the Ticket Act that has the similar provisions of the
Speaker 3: Fans First Act. And also, I forgot to mention spec
Speaker 3: tickets everybody, I think in the industry. You know, if
Speaker 3: you don't know what a spec ticket is, it's when
Speaker 3: they astronomical amounts on the secondary markets twenty thousand dollars,
Speaker 3: ten thousand dollars, maybe even one hundred dollars.
Speaker 2: But it's when.
Speaker 3: Somebody has posted a ticket for sale that doesn't actually
Speaker 3: exist yet, right they're posted before the actual on sale
Speaker 3: or in seats that don't exist, et cetera. So this
Speaker 3: would actually make the practice of spec tickets illegal. It
Speaker 3: would allow for a concierge service, which would allow for
Speaker 3: a consumer, if they can't get online at you know,
Speaker 3: Tuesday at ten am, to be able to come out
Speaker 3: quote unquote hire a broker such to go and secure
Speaker 3: the tickets for them. But the listings would have to
Speaker 3: be separately from tickets, the pricing would have to delineate
Speaker 3: between the sur and the ticket fee. And so excited,
Speaker 3: very excited to ban this much hated practice.
Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back. You know you're very familiar with
Speaker 1: the legislative process. Many people are not. Let's go back
Speaker 1: to the beginning and with Klobatar, who's your state senator, Minnesota?
Speaker 1: How did this legislation come to be?
Speaker 3: So we started seeing after reopening, I would end of
Speaker 3: twenty twenty one, really beginning of twenty twenty two, amongst
Speaker 3: the NEVA folks that are drop rates just weren't really recovering.
Speaker 1: Wait with just a little bit slower because there's a
Speaker 1: lot of things going on. Tell us about NIVA.
Speaker 3: Sure So, NIVA as the National Independent Venue Association, we
Speaker 3: came together late March early April after the COVID shutdowns
Speaker 3: had completely you know, ended our business and our ability
Speaker 3: to generate any revenue whatsoever, and we banded together both
Speaker 3: for knowledge sharing and community and trauma bonding as people
Speaker 3: would say, but also to pass legislation that would allow
Speaker 3: us the resources to ensure that we're able to reopen
Speaker 3: when it was safe to do so. We have, I believe,
Speaker 3: about twelve hundred members in every state, every congressional district,
Speaker 3: ranging from you know, fifty capacity coffee shops all the
Speaker 3: way up to amphitheaters and independent venues that generate the
Speaker 3: majority of the revenue by selling tickets.
Speaker 2: That's the qualifications.
Speaker 1: Okay, how did you end up being the president of
Speaker 1: the board.
Speaker 2: That is a great question.
Speaker 3: I maybe because no one else wanted to do it.
Speaker 3: I was the one that was really passionate about a
Speaker 3: federal bill and kind of led the charge on the
Speaker 3: advocacy effort. And because advocacy really was the first, second,
Speaker 3: and third priority, you know, realizing that there would be
Speaker 3: no venues in which to have an association if we
Speaker 3: didn't get this bill passed. The four other folks that
Speaker 3: were on the board elected me president.
Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back. You're sitting at home, lockdown, there
Speaker 1: are no shows. Tell me about the genesis of Neva
Speaker 1: and your role in it.
Speaker 3: So it was actually Reverend Moose and Marauder that called
Speaker 3: folks together on a town hall I think the first.
Speaker 3: The first one was actually a conference call. I don't
Speaker 3: even know if anyone knew what Zoom was yet, and
Speaker 3: it was I believe, a end of February, first week
Speaker 3: of March, to just hear from from folks in Europe
Speaker 3: what they were seeing and really kind of give a
Speaker 3: warning signal. And so I started joining those early calls
Speaker 3: and then when it went to zoom, seeing the other
Speaker 3: faces on there and realizing that, you know, these are
Speaker 3: all people with families, with lives, with houses, with obligations,
Speaker 3: and we were all going to be out of work
Speaker 3: and in severe debt with absolutely no way to repay
Speaker 3: any of our obligations unless we did something about it.
Speaker 1: Now to what deg we Was there an organization prior
Speaker 1: to this amongst the independents?
Speaker 2: Oh, there was no organization.
Speaker 3: I think, you know, people they would talk about with
Speaker 3: very you know, with guards up.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 3: I kind of made it a habit whenever I traveled,
Speaker 3: I would always reach out to the independent promoter, the
Speaker 3: club owner in town, just to get a tour and
Speaker 3: just to try to learn from them and see what
Speaker 3: they're doing. And I feel like I was always greeted
Speaker 3: with a little bit of like, are you coming into
Speaker 3: my city?
Speaker 2: What do you want to talk to me for?
Speaker 3: And so there was certainly a lot of we knew
Speaker 3: about each other, but I don't think there was a
Speaker 3: lot of you know, knowledge sharing or real kind of
Speaker 3: deep community amongst them.
Speaker 2: And that changed real fast.
Speaker 1: Okay, so now everybody's on a zoom. How do you
Speaker 1: organize and how do you set an agenda.
Speaker 3: Very messily. Those early meetings were they were pretty frantic,
Speaker 3: pretty desperate, and the way it came together it really
Speaker 3: self organized. And I think when you're in a situation
Speaker 3: that is, you know a little bit like war, a
Speaker 3: little bit like there's no alternative. It really people really
Speaker 3: wanted to help and there wasn't a whole lot of
Speaker 3: you know, arguments or dissension dissensions. It really was like, Okay,
Speaker 3: we need to do this.
Speaker 2: Who's going to do it? Great, you're going to do it.
Speaker 2: And also, you.
Speaker 3: Know, again kudos to Rever Moose who was our early
Speaker 3: executive director and how real from World Cafe.
Speaker 1: Why don't you tell people who he is?
Speaker 3: He has a marketing firm out of New York called Marauder,
Speaker 3: and he was he brought Independent Venue Week across from
Speaker 3: the UK, and so he was the just again the
Speaker 3: perfect person to really gather everybody because he didn't have
Speaker 3: a venue so wasn't seen, you know, as a competitor,
Speaker 3: but also was already in communication with all the independent
Speaker 3: venues in town due to independent Venueek.
Speaker 1: Okay, so now everybody's talking, how do you set the agenda?
Speaker 3: So really it's centered around we need to get this
Speaker 3: bill passed. Okay, what do we need to do to
Speaker 3: get a bill passed?
Speaker 1: Well, well, a little bit slower. So I mean, I
Speaker 1: remember being on the email thread and basically it's about
Speaker 1: getting money to the venues and the people who worked there.
Speaker 1: But how did you decide you were going to have legislation,
Speaker 1: How did you decide what was going to be in
Speaker 1: the legislation, How did you decide who's going to be
Speaker 1: the first mover.
Speaker 3: So we weren't even thinking legislation at the beginning. We
Speaker 3: were just thinking, Okay, there's going to be another Care's bill.
Speaker 3: We want to get in that Cares bill because we
Speaker 3: had read the first Cares bill and saw, oh wait,
Speaker 3: there's a separate provision for restaurants.
Speaker 2: So that's how we knew it was possible.
Speaker 3: We're like, if they're doing something for restaurants, they can
Speaker 3: do something for venues because we don't have takeout. You know,
Speaker 3: they went down thirty forty percent, we were down to
Speaker 3: zero percent. So we're like, we need something in that bill. Okay,
Speaker 3: how do you get something in a bill? You got
Speaker 3: to hire a lobbyist. So I called around to the folks.
Speaker 1: I knew who might be well, wha, wha, wha, whoa
Speaker 1: a little bit slower. How did you become the point person?
Speaker 2: I think I was. I that's a really good question.
Speaker 3: Maybe just because I was super passionate and you know,
Speaker 3: making a lot of the calls and had a vision
Speaker 3: and was determined to really get this thing done, and
Speaker 3: so just I think de facto fell into that role
Speaker 3: of quarterback.
Speaker 1: Oh okay, So basically everybody did they say, Dana, you go,
Speaker 1: or all all of a sudden, everybody's doing different stuff
Speaker 1: and they said, well, Dana's doing stuff, let's fall behind her.
Speaker 2: I think at that time, no one really knew what
Speaker 2: to do.
Speaker 3: So when somebody came, you know, with a plan and
Speaker 3: with Okay, this is what we're going to do, it
Speaker 3: really you know again, like I said, everybody was really
Speaker 3: willing to contribute and willing to contribute where they were
Speaker 3: needed and with what was necessary at the time. From
Speaker 3: the initial IVW meetings, there were five of us that
Speaker 3: were elected to the board, and so each of us
Speaker 3: had I think, different interests, and like I said, my
Speaker 3: interest was in advocacy and in getting some federal support
Speaker 3: for the venues, and so I became the Advocacy Chair,
Speaker 3: and we took from the initial emails of people that
Speaker 3: signed up for NIVA, through again the great leadership of
Speaker 3: Audrey Fick Schaeffer and Gary Witt, I just sent a
Speaker 3: mass email to anyone who said they were interested in lobbying,
Speaker 3: and so we formed the Advocacy Committee, and then we
Speaker 3: broke it down into states because part of the idea
Speaker 3: behind going for federal support was, you know, at First Avenue,
Speaker 3: we know what we mean in Minnesota, and we know
Speaker 3: the relationships we have locally. You know, we have had
Speaker 3: nothing federally, but we knew locally help beloved and how
Speaker 3: people would be really, really interested and anxious to help us.
Speaker 3: And so we just said, you know, there's First Avenues
Speaker 3: in every city that had these kinds of relationships. So
Speaker 3: we broke it down into a priest and captain system
Speaker 3: and said, Okay, you know, we'll have a few of
Speaker 3: us that are kind of overseeing the national strategy, but everybody.
Speaker 2: On the ground.
Speaker 3: The really main commitment was to get your local congress
Speaker 3: person and your senator invested in our cause and.
Speaker 2: Wanting to help us.
Speaker 1: So how did you end up hiring a lobbyist?
Speaker 3: We got very early financial support from ce tickets. We
Speaker 3: had nothing, right, We had a lot of people and
Speaker 3: a lot of people with time and willingness to work,
Speaker 3: but we had no resources whatsoever. So we got some
Speaker 3: early financial support. There were about six of us that
Speaker 3: gathered as the you know, kind of de facto selection
Speaker 3: or search committee.
Speaker 2: We each kind of reached out to people that we knew.
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, at the beginning, I can't really
Speaker 3: kind of overstate how how frantic and how hard everyone
Speaker 3: worked and what just kind of a.
Speaker 2: Desperate time it was.
Speaker 3: But it was like, okay, we need a federal lobbyist.
Speaker 3: I called to the you know, kind of bigger promoters
Speaker 3: that I thought might be doing something in DC. No
Speaker 3: one had a federal lobbyist. So I was like, wait,
Speaker 3: I don't know anyone in DC. I'm from Minnesota.
Speaker 2: What am I going to do?
Speaker 3: And I'm like, wait, then, I'm thirty club And so
Speaker 3: I happened to have been sitting next to Audrey Fixschaeffer
Speaker 3: at a dinner a few nights a few months before
Speaker 3: and just sent her a Facebook message saying, Hey, you're
Speaker 3: a DC do you know a lobbyist? So, you know,
Speaker 3: she joined up and and we really just you know again,
Speaker 3: everybody reached into their networks, came up with the names
Speaker 3: that we could find, and I think are the lobbyist
Speaker 3: that we found Ach and Gump the best, Casey Higgins
Speaker 3: and it began the best lobbyist in the entire world.
Speaker 3: We found them because somebody on a group chain I
Speaker 3: was in said that Paul Ryan's office was giving PPP advice.
Speaker 3: So I was like, well, I can't call Paul Paul
Speaker 3: Ryan's office. I'm from Minneapolis, but I know somebody from Milwaukee.
Speaker 3: So Gary Witt, you know, called up Paul Ryan's office
Speaker 3: and was referred to Casey Higgins. Uh, and that's how
Speaker 3: we we got to Casey.
Speaker 1: Tell us about Casey and his firm.
Speaker 2: Mm. Her firm is.
Speaker 3: No, No, So they're a huge, you know top I
Speaker 3: don't know that much about law firms, but a top
Speaker 3: firm and really became invested in our cause.
Speaker 2: And I think how.
Speaker 1: Pastora law firm lobbying firm, Well.
Speaker 3: The the lobbyists are are lawyers, so it's a law
Speaker 3: firm that also has us.
Speaker 1: So all the lobbyists are lawyers.
Speaker 3: I might be overstating that, but I believe most of
Speaker 3: the major lobbying firms are law firms.
Speaker 1: Okay, and so this law firm they're representing NIVA. How
Speaker 1: many other clients do they have?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 3: Oh a hundreds? But thank god the conflict check checked out.
Speaker 3: So that was very fortunate for us.
Speaker 1: And so then what kind of an agreement do you
Speaker 1: make with the lobbying firm?
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, So we had a monthly retainer and they
Speaker 3: got to work immediately, I think from our first call,
Speaker 3: you know, really guiding the strategy and setting out how
Speaker 3: we were going to tell our stories. I I'll never forget.
Speaker 3: You know, they did a lobbying one oh one for
Speaker 3: NIVA members, like how to talk to your member of Congress,
Speaker 3: you know, because most folks had never been involved in
Speaker 3: anything like this. You know, we're used to hosting fundraisers
Speaker 3: maybe you know, talking to our city council people, but
Speaker 3: you know, in terms of federal lobbying, it was all new.
Speaker 1: So, okay, how do you talk to a congress person,
Speaker 1: you know, like a real person.
Speaker 2: It would it's pretty surprising.
Speaker 3: And sharing our stories and I was going to say fortunately,
Speaker 3: but really it's unfortunately. You know, we had kind of
Speaker 3: the most authentic SOB story of all sab stories. You know,
Speaker 3: during the pandemic, people were cashing out there for one case,
Speaker 3: they were.
Speaker 2: Remortgaging their houses.
Speaker 3: They were doing everything imaginable and anything they could to
Speaker 3: just try to hang on one more month, two more months.
Speaker 3: So you know, those were the stories that we told.
Speaker 3: And on top of that the impact that we have
Speaker 3: in our communities, and we were, you know, really fortunate
Speaker 3: that we had built. You know, almost every independent venue
Speaker 3: has built really strong, deep rooted community relationships. So you know,
Speaker 3: I was on a call with a congress person from
Speaker 3: rural or yeah, the valley in California, and so it
Speaker 3: wasn't just the historic theater on the call. It was
Speaker 3: also the director of the Chamber of Commerce, and the
Speaker 3: local hotel and the restaurant next door, and they were
Speaker 3: all advocating for saveer stages and for helping the theater
Speaker 3: because without the theater they wouldn't have any business either.
Speaker 1: Okay, you go to the lobbying firm, we hear all
Speaker 1: the time that the lobbying firm writes the legislation. Is
Speaker 1: that what happened?
Speaker 3: I think the staffers wrote the the staffers wrote the legislation, but.
Speaker 1: The lobbying firm of the staffers for the elected officials.
Speaker 3: The Senate officials. Yeah, yeah, the Senate staffers.
Speaker 1: Okay, so you have lobbying one on one from the
Speaker 1: lobby firm you hire, and do they tell everybody in
Speaker 1: NEEDA to talk to their people? Do they say what
Speaker 1: the agenda is?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 3: So we organized into a precinct captain system. So the
Speaker 3: folks that initially had said they were interested in lobbying
Speaker 3: the we all joined on. I think we were talking
Speaker 3: three times a week. We were in constant communication, and
Speaker 3: so there was one kind of leader for every state
Speaker 3: or district. So we had like you know, Northern California
Speaker 3: and Southern California, and those folks were responsible for coordinating
Speaker 3: amongst all of the NEVA venues in their district. So
Speaker 3: you know, it'd be pretty hard to have a thousand
Speaker 3: people on a call trying to stay organized and stay productive.
Speaker 3: So you know, we again, we had more of a
Speaker 3: structured system. So we would talk to you know, Gen
Speaker 3: Lyons in New York and then she would coordinate with
Speaker 3: all the New York venues to go in and talk
Speaker 3: to Senator Schumer or Senator Deliveran.
Speaker 2: That's how we organized.
Speaker 1: Okay, Okay, very practically. You have these precinct captains. You
Speaker 1: then want to hit every member of Congress and you
Speaker 1: want to tell them what story. You just want to say,
Speaker 1: give me money or do you go over there with
Speaker 1: an agenda? We needed x y Q.
Speaker 2: YEP.
Speaker 3: I believe we hit ninety five percent of members of Congress.
Speaker 3: I think we even had a representative from Guam. So
Speaker 3: we you know, our motto is no stone left unturned,
Speaker 3: because it's you know, easy to sit here in twenty
Speaker 3: twenty four and look back and say, oh, of course
Speaker 3: we were going to get.
Speaker 2: The bill we had.
Speaker 3: There was no assurances whatsoever that we were going to
Speaker 3: get anything, and so we left literally no stone unturned.
Speaker 3: If there was anyone to talk to, we would talk
Speaker 3: to them. I think one one of our members actually
Speaker 3: found out the running route of her senator and put
Speaker 3: up yard signs along the running route to get his attention.
Speaker 3: And so, yeah, we went in and the kind of
Speaker 3: a gender or strategy we followed was, you know, tell
Speaker 3: your personal story, tell your economic impact. Gary Witt from
Speaker 3: Pop Theater Group in Milwaukee had, you know, came initially
Speaker 3: with a staff that he had read in a Chicago
Speaker 3: paper really recently before the pandemic shutdown said one dollar
Speaker 3: of every at one dollar spent on a ticket in
Speaker 3: a small venue equaled twelve dollars of economic impact. So
Speaker 3: we used that stat it was it was done, you know,
Speaker 3: an official study by the Chicago Loop, so it was documented.
Speaker 3: We didn't we didn't make it up, but we used
Speaker 3: that number to measure our economic impact and went in
Speaker 3: with not only just our personal stories of like, this
Speaker 3: is how long I've been in business, this is you
Speaker 3: know how much I've mortgaged on my house, this is
Speaker 3: how many employees I have, but also you know, this
Speaker 3: was my economic impact. This is what I've generated in
Speaker 3: revenue and jobs for my community.
Speaker 1: Okay, so you go when you hit all these congress people,
Speaker 1: are you just telling a story or do you say
Speaker 1: we want X?
Speaker 3: We always had an ask that was rule rule number
Speaker 3: one is you know, you go and you tell your story,
Speaker 3: but there's always an end with will you sign our letter?
Speaker 3: Will you co sponsor our legislation? Will you if you've
Speaker 3: already co sponsored, will you call to people and help
Speaker 3: convince them to co sponsor? You know, always leaving with
Speaker 3: a tangible way that somebody can help us.
Speaker 1: How does it turn from a want hiring the lobbying
Speaker 1: firm to an actual piece of legislation. When you're saying
Speaker 1: will you sign our legislation, we're just legislation come from.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was actually the senators we sent out you
Speaker 3: know again along with like there's there's so many industry partners,
Speaker 3: and thank you again to everyone.
Speaker 2: Everyone.
Speaker 3: I feel like listening to this probably helped in some way.
Speaker 3: So we just again, we first sent a letter just saying, hey,
Speaker 3: in Congress, we need help.
Speaker 2: We're totally shut down.
Speaker 3: The only thing that's going to get us through is
Speaker 3: you to you know, doing a dear colleague letter. So
Speaker 3: we had I think forty nine senators send a letter
Speaker 3: to leadership saying, hey, leadership, you should take these guys seriously.
Speaker 3: And then there was a bill that was introduced by
Speaker 3: Senators Bennett and Young called the Restart Act that would
Speaker 3: help businesses disproportionately disadvantaged. So you know, our you know,
Speaker 3: our thought process was that PPP helped all businesses equally. Well,
Speaker 3: we were the most disadvantaged. We had no revenue, We
Speaker 3: needed more help than other businesses, and so Restart actually
Speaker 3: had a formula that it would help give you grants
Speaker 3: based on how much your revenue is down.
Speaker 2: So we love that.
Speaker 3: So we're like, okay, this is we're going to advocate
Speaker 3: for this bill. So we had all the NIVA members
Speaker 3: sent emails out to their email lists, you know, saying hey,
Speaker 3: you can email your senators this way, and along with
Speaker 3: some industry partners that also sent emails out to their
Speaker 3: email list, we ended up getting two point two million
Speaker 3: emails into Congress.
Speaker 2: It was just an.
Speaker 3: Unreal level of support from our customers and concert goers.
Speaker 3: And so when those emails started flooding into the offices,
Speaker 3: all of a sudden, we started getting a lot of attention,
Speaker 3: and Senators Corny and clobush Are actually said okay, I
Speaker 3: think it's time for your own bill, and so we
Speaker 3: didn't again this it was our dream of all dreams,
Speaker 3: but it was generated by them.
Speaker 1: Okay, how does it work with the Senate visa VI
Speaker 1: the House?
Speaker 3: Oh?
Speaker 2: Great question. So it has to pass both houses.
Speaker 3: I'm trying to remember my what was the Schoolhouse rock?
Speaker 3: How a bill becomes a law. So the bill has
Speaker 3: to pass both houses. So we introduced in the Senate first,
Speaker 3: and then we had a House companion that was the
Speaker 3: same bill, and so when they both passed, then it
Speaker 3: goes to the President's office.
Speaker 1: Okay, sometimes the bills are different and there has to
Speaker 1: be some kind of reconciliation. That was not a factor here.
Speaker 3: So we actually didn't We didn't pass as a standalone bill.
Speaker 3: We passed as part of the package. So the package
Speaker 3: passed the Senate and then I believe it passed the House,
Speaker 3: but the inclusion was similar. And I'm having to really
Speaker 3: stretch into my memory. So yeah, it was end of
Speaker 3: December that it ended up. The package ended up going.
Speaker 4: Through December of twenty twenty.
Speaker 1: Right, did you get what you wanted?
Speaker 3: App? I mean we're still in business right as The
Speaker 3: ultimate test and how successful this legislation was is that,
Speaker 3: you know, we had very few NIVA members closed for
Speaker 3: financial purposes and folks are still around to reopen and
Speaker 3: to fight another day.
Speaker 1: Okay, just to drill down, what did first Avenue get
Speaker 1: from PPP and what did you get from Save our Stages?
Speaker 3: I don't remember the exact numbers. I think amongst our
Speaker 3: six venues we got around ten million I believe from
Speaker 3: the Save our Stages grants.
Speaker 1: Well, let me ask you a different way. You have venues,
Speaker 1: they have operating costs, you have employees. What did PPP cover.
Speaker 3: Oh, PPP covered maybe a month, maybe maybe two months
Speaker 3: of our operating expenses, Like it was very insubstantial.
Speaker 1: Then when you got save our State ages, what personage
Speaker 1: did it cover that or did it just allow you
Speaker 1: to keep the doors open so to speak.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was able to cover our expenses.
Speaker 3: You know, going back, we were closed eighteen months and
Speaker 3: it allowed us to reopen and rehire. You know, rehiring
Speaker 3: and reopening is you know, ungodly amounts of expenses. We
Speaker 3: didn't have any employees, right, you have to go through
Speaker 3: all of the onboarding process, all the rehiring process, all
Speaker 3: the cleaning processes, the new filters, some other like you know,
Speaker 3: improvements to the room due to COVID et cetera. And
Speaker 3: so it allowed us to do that and to then
Speaker 3: also when we first came back, there were you know,
Speaker 3: there were some losses you know, in the first few
Speaker 3: months of opening that allowed us to cover that.
Speaker 1: Okay, So between PPP and Save our Stages, the people
Speaker 1: lose money, break even or make money.
Speaker 3: Well, the way the formula worked is you were only
Speaker 3: allowed to spend your spend the money on operating expenses.
Speaker 3: There's no way to quote unquote make money.
Speaker 2: You know, you have.
Speaker 3: To show the SBA the receipts of what you spent
Speaker 3: your money on. So I mean, unless there's no you know,
Speaker 3: ethical or realistic way to just kind of pocket money.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 3: In fact, fifty percent of people are still closing out there,
Speaker 3: save our stages grants.
Speaker 1: So how hard was it to actually get the money
Speaker 1: in your account?
Speaker 2: Fucking impossible.
Speaker 3: I mean it was, you know, we pad that bill
Speaker 3: passed and end of December twenty twenty. Some people might
Speaker 3: remember this, there was you know, Trump wasn't going to
Speaker 3: sign the bill. There was maybe three days of just
Speaker 3: absolute you know, heart stopping, continued panic, and then then
Speaker 3: he ended up signing it and it became law. So
Speaker 3: we were thinking, okay, SBA, will you know, get the
Speaker 3: website up maybe mid February at the latest. Well, March
Speaker 3: came along and they still you know, didn't have a website.
Speaker 3: We had to go, you know, reach out to our champions,
Speaker 3: reach out to the White House Economic Council to really
Speaker 3: get them to open up the scrint and help them understand,
Speaker 3: like there was a time when people didn't think the
Speaker 3: bill was real, right, They didn't because they didn't have
Speaker 3: the money in their account. They just thought, oh, it's
Speaker 3: all you know, it's all a mirage. There's never going
Speaker 3: to be any money coming. And in the meantime, the
Speaker 3: Restaurant Revitalization Act passed, they were able to get their
Speaker 3: money out the door. I think it was a much
Speaker 3: simpler equation. So they got their money out the door.
Speaker 3: I think maybe even earlier than we did. So mid April,
Speaker 3: the website went up.
Speaker 2: The website crashed.
Speaker 3: There was a sentiment amongst the industry, including the performing
Speaker 3: arts folks and the museums, that there wasn't going to
Speaker 3: be enough money in the bill. So we went back
Speaker 3: to Congress and got more money added. And so then
Speaker 3: when it finally opened the end of April, the approval process,
Speaker 3: because the restrictions were so stringent, you know, you had
Speaker 3: to prove that you sold tickets, you had to prove
Speaker 3: that you had a PA, you had to prove your
Speaker 3: revenues for the past few years. You know. I think
Speaker 3: at first Avenue, I don't think we got our the
Speaker 3: money deposited in our account until maybe September twenty twenty one.
Speaker 1: Wow. So is there anybody who ultimately got left out.
Speaker 1: And there are other people where the steps were so
Speaker 1: onerous they just gave up or couldn't figure it out.
Speaker 3: You know a lot of folks we heard actually applied,
Speaker 3: or some folks that should say, applied for the Restaurant
Speaker 3: Revitalization Act. There you had to have I think thirty
Speaker 3: three percent food. So some folks opted to just to
Speaker 3: just go for the Restaurant Act. And so, you know,
Speaker 3: I think in terms of folks getting left out, I
Speaker 3: think it was moral industries like the gyms. I think
Speaker 3: maybe they felt left out or I'm trying to remember
Speaker 3: who else was advocating at the time. But in terms
Speaker 3: of NIVA members, I believe almost all NIVA members were
Speaker 3: able to secure grants.
Speaker 1: Okay, so let's jump forward. You talked about the drop
Speaker 1: rates going down. Explain for those who are not sophisticated
Speaker 1: what drop rates are, right.
Speaker 3: So, a drop count is how we measure what percentage
Speaker 3: of ticket buyers actually show up, scan their tickets and
Speaker 3: enter the venue. So it's really important, especially to clubs
Speaker 3: and theaters who make their money on the ancillar raising
Speaker 3: people in the venue, buying beer and spending money in
Speaker 3: the venue. So if you sell a ticket to somebody
Speaker 3: that doesn't show up, that's effectively lost revenue for us.
Speaker 3: So before COVID, you know, we had a no show
Speaker 3: rate of maybe five percent, four or five percent. Well,
Speaker 3: post COVID, we started seeing no show rates. You know,
Speaker 3: initially during Omicron it was sometimes off to a fifty percent.
Speaker 3: But you know, once the industry and society kind of
Speaker 3: got back to normal life, we were still seeing no
Speaker 3: show rates of fifteen to twenty percent, which is a crisis. Again,
Speaker 3: if you're relying on those beer sales to pay you rent,
Speaker 3: then what.
Speaker 1: Did you do when you notice these bad numbers?
Speaker 3: Yeah, so first, you know, we just went I think
Speaker 3: I think I went to Casey and just said, hey,
Speaker 3: we're seeing this.
Speaker 2: This is a huge problem for us. What do you
Speaker 2: is there? You know, what can we do legislatively about it?
Speaker 3: Because we started, you know, discussing amongst ourselves and realizing
Speaker 3: that these tickets are sitting on the secondary market, and
Speaker 3: so you know, if you sell a ticket to a broker,
Speaker 3: well sometimes they're more invested in selling if they buy
Speaker 3: twenty tickets, they're more invested in selling five tickets for
Speaker 3: you know, five hundred dollars versus twenty tickets for two
Speaker 3: hundred dollars and so that's you know, it again works
Speaker 3: out all fine and well for the brokers, but for
Speaker 3: the venues, that's a huge problem. And so we started
Speaker 3: you know, kind of linking that and linking also, you know,
Speaker 3: googling our venues and seeing that sometimes our box office
Speaker 3: web pages and our ticket our official ticket sellers were
Speaker 3: way down, and our customers were, you know, buying tickets
Speaker 3: from folks that they thought were us that weren't really us.
Speaker 3: And so that combined led us to go and talk
Speaker 3: to Casey and aking Gump and at Pegano and say.
Speaker 2: Okay, what can we do about this?
Speaker 3: Because you know, you don't not everything can be a crisis,
Speaker 3: but this, this has the potential to be another oncoming crisis.
Speaker 1: Okay, once again, you have the Senate in the House.
Speaker 1: Is this an independent bill or is this part of
Speaker 1: another bill?
Speaker 3: Right now, it's an independent bill. We're working hard to
Speaker 3: get co sponsors in the Senate. There is a House
Speaker 3: bill that is a different bill that's called the Ticket Act,
Speaker 3: that has some of the similar provisions like all in
Speaker 3: pricing and banning spect tickets and predatory deceptive practices. You know,
Speaker 3: we think the Fans First Act has much stricter penalties
Speaker 3: and the language within each of those categories goes further
Speaker 3: to protect our fans. So, you know, we're waiting to
Speaker 3: see what the packages might be March April, you know,
Speaker 3: to see about inclusion and to see what we can
Speaker 3: do to get it past both houses.
Speaker 1: Okay, what is CO sponsoring AD?
Speaker 2: What is it at right now?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 1: What does it do for the bill?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 3: It shows that we have momentum that we have you know,
Speaker 3: people and politicians I should say that believe in this
Speaker 3: and that we'll vote for it, and that are invested
Speaker 3: in it, and just goes to show general support.
Speaker 1: Okay, you know this is Washington, d C. We read
Speaker 1: every day in the paper. People say one thing publicly
Speaker 1: and another thing privately. How hard is it to get
Speaker 1: someone to go on the record say hey, yeah, I'll
Speaker 1: do that.
Speaker 3: How hard is it?
Speaker 2: It's not easy.
Speaker 3: It's definitely not easy. I think that you know, as
Speaker 3: independent venues and our partners and the fix the TIXT
Speaker 3: coalitionion which includes you know, the performing arts and the
Speaker 3: bigger venues and independent ticket sellers and you know folks
Speaker 3: throughout the industry, I think we have an important voice,
Speaker 3: and we have an important story, and I do think
Speaker 3: that we have the right bill.
Speaker 2: You know, we.
Speaker 3: Started with the goal of you know, trying to cap
Speaker 3: resale at you know, ten percent above face or you know,
Speaker 3: trying to do some more protective measures and realizing the
Speaker 3: political and feasibility of it. I think we have the
Speaker 3: bill right now that is passable, that is a no brainer.
Speaker 3: Like I said, it's an important first piece of the puzzle.
Speaker 3: I don't believe comprehensive ticketing legislation has ever even gotten
Speaker 3: this far yet. So to show that we can pass
Speaker 3: a comprehensive ticketing bill, that this is important and that
Speaker 3: does go you know, take that important first step in
Speaker 3: protecting our customers. I think we have the right story,
Speaker 3: we have the right bill, and we're going to get
Speaker 3: to work and make it happen.
Speaker 1: Okay, is the lobbyist the person who's always into the
Speaker 1: nitty gritty with the elected officials or do you or
Speaker 1: other individuals from the organization actually get into the trenches too.
Speaker 3: So the lobbyists are definitely you know, again, they're most
Speaker 3: knowledgeable in terms of like bill language and how to
Speaker 3: phrase what we want in the legal terms that make
Speaker 3: a bill effective. Certainly, myself and Stephen Parker, the executive
Speaker 3: director of NIVA, and the other advocacy committee leadership can
Speaker 3: talk in the nitty gritty. I think, however, our voice
Speaker 3: is probably most effective as business owners and effective constituents.
Speaker 1: So do you personally talk to Amy Klobitchaw.
Speaker 2: Whenever? I am so lucky?
Speaker 3: Absolutely, I think she's the best.
Speaker 1: Why is she the best? And when you do, how
Speaker 1: often would you talk to him? What would be the agenda? Like, hey,
Speaker 1: good seeing Amy, Let's talk about the weather, or you
Speaker 1: get down into what you're looking for.
Speaker 3: You know, I think she's the best because she absolutely
Speaker 3: fights for what she believes in and she doesn't give
Speaker 3: up until she gets it done.
Speaker 2: And you know, there's a reason why I think she is.
Speaker 3: The most effective legislator, right And she just really cares.
Speaker 3: And you know, throughout the same of our stages process
Speaker 3: and throughout COVID, like she really cared about our industry,
Speaker 3: She cared about my employees, she cared about making sure
Speaker 3: we were reopen, and she, you know, again, like us,
Speaker 3: left no stone unturned and did every thing possible to
Speaker 3: make sure that that bill is passed.
Speaker 1: Let me recap in the last twelve months. How many
Speaker 1: times have you spoken have been one on one with
Speaker 1: Amy Klobitchar.
Speaker 3: Oh, less than a handful. No, We're not like having
Speaker 3: dinner or drinks.
Speaker 1: Leavis spearheading this bill. Not everybody has the same agenda.
Speaker 1: What did the brokers in the secondary market have to say?
Speaker 4: Right?
Speaker 3: So, you know, I do think it's important that before
Speaker 3: we even started this effort, we put together the Fix
Speaker 3: the TIXX Coalition, which has thirty members you know, from
Speaker 3: throughout the industry, from the Recording Academy and the artist
Speaker 3: groups that have you know, as important, if not a
Speaker 3: more important voice in this than we do, you know,
Speaker 3: to the TONDO and to the performing our groups, independent
Speaker 3: ticket sellers, like I said, and so I think it's
Speaker 3: important to have that coalition again, knowing that the brokers
Speaker 3: and the secondaries, they just their resources seem to be endless,
Speaker 3: and they've been at this a lot longer than we have.
Speaker 3: You know, NIVA has been you know, lobbying for what's
Speaker 3: January twenty fourth for four years or so. I mean,
Speaker 3: the secondaries have been having these really having these conversations
Speaker 3: and have these relationships going back decades or more so.
Speaker 3: We definitely are playing catch up, especially on this topic.
Speaker 1: Okay, do the secondaries have their own lobbyists and relationship
Speaker 1: with elected officials?
Speaker 2: Oh? Absolutely, absolutely, very strong ones.
Speaker 1: So when you're having this bill, are they literally part
Speaker 1: of the mix or are they just going behind the
Speaker 1: scenes to the people who are supporting them saying, hey,
Speaker 1: we don't want this.
Speaker 3: You know, I'm not entirely sure. I know that they're
Speaker 3: running a public campaign. I forgot what their alliance is called.
Speaker 3: But you know, again, we think that we have the
Speaker 3: right bill. We have a very compromise kind of no
Speaker 3: brainer solution that would bring transparency and some you know,
Speaker 3: clarity to our customers. And like I said, what we
Speaker 3: started out with like on a fire and brimstone of
Speaker 3: you know, of the secondary market. We compromise in order
Speaker 3: to get something passed. We thought that was really important.
Speaker 3: You know, we're not interested in like what they call
Speaker 3: a messaging bill, right, which is a bill that's introduced
Speaker 3: that has no chance of passing, but you know, you
Speaker 3: just you want to get it on the record. You know,
Speaker 3: we're not interested in that. We're all all of us
Speaker 3: that even we have other jobs. We're running businesses, we're
Speaker 3: promoting shows like if we take our time and effort
Speaker 3: to introduce a bill, we want to make sure that
Speaker 3: it's passable.
Speaker 1: Okay, people think ticketing is easy, but it's very complicated.
Speaker 1: I've had my own interaction with the government and even
Speaker 1: people who were there dedicated to this, I'm stunned with
Speaker 1: they don't understand it. So Congress people, do they understand ticketing.
Speaker 3: It's interesting to me how many, especially staffers that we
Speaker 3: talked to, that have their own experience their ticket buyers.
Speaker 3: Right there are customers, you know, they're going to shows, and.
Speaker 2: So they have a really good.
Speaker 3: Knowledge of it from the customer side, which sometimes you know,
Speaker 3: promoters and venues.
Speaker 2: Sometimes we don't even have.
Speaker 3: That perspective of it as far as like the intricacies
Speaker 3: of the market. Some some do, and most of you know,
Speaker 3: everyone we've talked to especially is very smart and as
Speaker 3: soon as we explain it, they get it immediately.
Speaker 1: Okay, you went undercover to the broker conference. Tell us
Speaker 1: a little bit about that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I was able to use a friends a
Speaker 3: friend's name and credit card and walk around the floor
Speaker 3: of the conference and was just totally in shock at
Speaker 3: the tools that they have in order to access our tickets,
Speaker 3: like on precedented, unimaginable ways to get their hands on
Speaker 3: our tickets. As much as we try to, you know,
Speaker 3: put ticket limits and put zip code restrictions and put
Speaker 3: all non transferability anything we try to do, there's a workaround.
Speaker 3: And I was even more surprised walking around and that
Speaker 3: they're just advertising it in plain sight, right Like, you know,
Speaker 3: for instance, ghost browsers, so you can open up more
Speaker 3: than fifty different tabs that all have different IP addresses.
Speaker 3: They have you know, there's digital credit cards that don't
Speaker 3: have any kind of ZIP code requirements. So you know,
Speaker 3: they were literally talking to us saying.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can, you can.
Speaker 3: We can get you a thousand different credit card numbers
Speaker 3: and you don't even need don't worry any zip code you.
Speaker 2: Want, don't even worry about it.
Speaker 3: Their inventory management solutions are way more sophisticated than what
Speaker 3: we have, right, Like, they can manage all your inventory effectively,
Speaker 3: you know, hide the inventory and post it based on
Speaker 3: how many people are buying in the pricing algorithms, based
Speaker 3: on what the pricing is across all the different secondary markets.
Speaker 3: They have tools that allow that instantly access all of
Speaker 3: the pre sale pass codes in one place, and that
Speaker 3: can ping are the ticketing companies to actually get pretty
Speaker 3: accurate ticket audits. I mean, so we're walking around and
Speaker 3: we're you know, saying, hey, we're interested in getting more involved.
Speaker 3: We're just kind of starting out, and I said, oh,
Speaker 3: let me show you how this works. The company the
Speaker 3: sales are actually pulled up one of my own shows
Speaker 3: at the Palace and said, okay, here it is. This
Speaker 3: show is on this date, and there's eight hundred and
Speaker 3: sixty seven tickets available. I'm going, you've got to be
Speaker 3: kidding me. So I pull up my own ticket and
Speaker 3: I'm like, oh my god, they were probably within ten percent,
Speaker 3: you know.
Speaker 2: And then on the right.
Speaker 3: Side, it's okay, here's all the different their pre Selle passwords,
Speaker 3: here's when they go on sale. You've been set up
Speaker 3: to buy automatically with your you know, ghost browsers, with
Speaker 3: your virtual credit cards.
Speaker 2: It's just it's just insane.
Speaker 3: So it became instantly illuminating, you know, why we were
Speaker 3: having these drop count issues, and why fans were so
Speaker 3: frustrated when they were unable to access tickets, and why
Speaker 3: they're paying so much more, you know, in for their
Speaker 3: tickets that are actually going to those of us responsible
Speaker 3: for making shows happen.
Speaker 1: Is this a winnable war by the ticket company.
Speaker 5: By the ticketing companies, the dato It's an ongoing battle
Speaker 5: between the secondary market brokers and the ticketing companies whatever
Speaker 5: it might be Ticketmaster access see.
Speaker 1: You know, is this going to go on forever? Or
Speaker 1: is there any way that they can have enough technology
Speaker 1: to put a dent this?
Speaker 3: I mean, certainly after walking that floor, it became clear
Speaker 3: that we need a legislative solution because any tech that
Speaker 3: we can come up with, you know, they can instantly combat.
Speaker 2: Because they don't have the stress or the.
Speaker 3: Financial strain of actually having to put on shows. They
Speaker 3: can put one hundred percent of their resources into just
Speaker 3: getting our tickets right. So you know, again the you know,
Speaker 3: in Minneapolis, we have we're doing eleven hundred, twelve hundred
Speaker 3: shows a year, We're servicing customers, we have a busy,
Speaker 3: stressful business to then you know, try to also go
Speaker 3: above and beyond, and you know, we do the very
Speaker 3: best we can while still actually having you know, having
Speaker 3: a business at twitch to protect. I do think it's winnable.
Speaker 3: I think that this is the story that we need
Speaker 3: to tell, and I think the customers, you know, realizing
Speaker 3: when they come to the door that they paid eighty
Speaker 3: dollars for a ticket that's available at the door for
Speaker 3: twenty five right. That happens almost every show, or realizing
Speaker 3: that they didn't when the show was canceled they didn't
Speaker 3: get a refund because they bought it from a broker
Speaker 3: that has no legal obligation to refund them.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 3: I think there's very kind of There are problems that
Speaker 3: are becoming more and more apparent that are customer facing
Speaker 3: and not just industry facing.
Speaker 1: So you're focusing on legislation to solve this problem. Do
Speaker 1: you believe technology can solve the problem?
Speaker 3: You know, I am not smart enough about the technological aspects.
Speaker 3: I certainly hope, so all of you smart tech people
Speaker 3: listening to the podcast please also another important part of
Speaker 3: the puzzle.
Speaker 1: Right, Okay, you go to this convention. I'm just interested, Hey,
Speaker 1: how many people are there? B You're an attractive young woman.
Speaker 1: Do they say what she doing here? Or are there
Speaker 1: are a lot of women there?
Speaker 3: I was definitely one of the only one of the
Speaker 3: only women in the room.
Speaker 4: I was.
Speaker 3: I thought I was gonna get called out immediately, because
Speaker 3: certainly it was a lot of bros.
Speaker 2: It was a lot of bros. So there were maybe.
Speaker 3: Eight hundred or so, and it seems to be mostly
Speaker 3: about the trade floor and about you know, they had
Speaker 3: like maybe one or two panels a day right at
Speaker 3: nivacn which I'll give a small plug for everybody to
Speaker 3: come to the NIVA conference in New Orleans in early June.
Speaker 3: But you know, it's about learning, it's about bettering your business.
Speaker 3: We have, you know, dozens and dozens of panels throughout
Speaker 3: the entire day that they had, you know, maybe two
Speaker 3: panels a day, and seemed to be mostly about networking
Speaker 3: and discovering the new technological resources available. But you know,
Speaker 3: I tried to wear a hat and keep my head
Speaker 3: down and just try to learn and glean as much
Speaker 3: information as I could.
Speaker 1: Okay, just to be clear, let's say you have a show.
Speaker 1: To make the numbers easy, we'll call it one thousand
Speaker 1: tickets and we'll say the ticket was twenty dollars and
Speaker 1: use your example, and people spend eighty dollars on the
Speaker 1: secondary market. Do you find that, no matter how well
Speaker 1: the show is doing, it's one thing that the show's
Speaker 1: going clean. If it's selling out Okay, tickets are hard
Speaker 1: to get, but let's just assume the show is doing
Speaker 1: seventy five percent of capacity. Are people still being confused
Speaker 1: and paying more on the secondary market?
Speaker 2: Absolutely?
Speaker 3: I mean last I checked, every single one of our
Speaker 3: shows was listed on secondary market. So even the ones
Speaker 3: at the smaller capacity rooms, you know that maybe were
Speaker 3: under half sold. So and without a doubt because of
Speaker 3: the way that the advertisements are working that most people
Speaker 3: from what I've I believe I read a stat that
Speaker 3: forty percent of people buy their tickets by just clicking
Speaker 3: the first link in Google right. And so as a
Speaker 3: independent venue like we don't have the resources to outdid
Speaker 3: the secondaries. You know, if you they you know, buying
Speaker 3: up the keywords like events and tickets and and so
Speaker 3: you know, when you go to those secondaries sometimes the
Speaker 3: tickets are lower that that's you know, their talking point.
Speaker 3: But you know, on average, there was a government study
Speaker 3: I think it's a it was about twenty seven percent
Speaker 3: over face value on average. And so from our perspective,
Speaker 3: that takes money out of the pockets of our customers.
Speaker 3: And what we're trying to do at the club level
Speaker 3: as an independence, we're trying to build a long term
Speaker 3: sustainable community and ecosystem of live music obsessed concert goers
Speaker 3: that don't just want to go to one show a year, right,
Speaker 3: they want to go to concerts as a lifestyle, and
Speaker 3: they want to take risks on going to see new
Speaker 3: bands and view going to concert the way they would,
Speaker 3: you know, go into the movies or go into a restaurant.
Speaker 3: And so if you spend you know, twenty seven fifty
Speaker 3: percent more, that takes the money out of your pocket
Speaker 3: that you can spend discovering these new bands and really
Speaker 3: making concerts a lifestyle.
Speaker 1: Now, I believe you said previously that the brokers are
Speaker 1: so sophisticated they can even replicate your website.
Speaker 3: Yeah, for a while, I'm not sure if it's still up,
Speaker 3: but for a while there was a website called First
Speaker 3: Avenue Boxofice dot com. Well that wasn't us. The branding,
Speaker 3: the I want to say, the logo. That's another thing
Speaker 3: that the fans first act. You know, you couldn't you
Speaker 3: can't use logos, you can't use photos of the venue,
Speaker 3: you can't do anything to try to represent yourself as
Speaker 3: an official seller. So you know you can you could
Speaker 3: go to First Avenue, Boxofice, dot com and have no
Speaker 3: idea that you're not actually buying from first avenue.
Speaker 1: Okay, let's just go a little bit more into ticketing.
Speaker 1: When you look deeply, frequently everybody has dirty hands. You
Speaker 1: have the customer who's complaining, and then you say, when
Speaker 1: you want to do something what we used to call
Speaker 1: paperless or tie it to their phone whatever. They're pissed
Speaker 1: off because they can't buy multiple tickets and scalp them themselves.
Speaker 1: So what about locking tickets down to individuals? Is that
Speaker 1: something that you can do want to do or is
Speaker 1: that ship sailed?
Speaker 3: I mean in terms of a knowing who's in the room,
Speaker 3: that would be incredibly helpful. You know, sometimes you have
Speaker 3: emergency situations, you have bands that are giving us, you know,
Speaker 3: stocker lists that they don't want let in. It would
Speaker 3: be incredible to have the information for everybody in the
Speaker 3: room in terms of trying to get people in the
Speaker 3: door quickly. That probably you know, there's a there's a
Speaker 3: balance there. But I do also think customers want to
Speaker 3: just have you know, four tickets on their phone and
Speaker 3: scan them all together and have an ease of purchase
Speaker 3: and an ease of concert going as well.
Speaker 1: I guess what I'm saying is, do you view customer
Speaker 1: secondary market scalping is an issue you want to address.
Speaker 3: You know, we're mostly concerned with industrial level scalpers. You know,
Speaker 3: if somebody bought a ticket, they intended to go to
Speaker 3: the show, they couldn't find a babysitter, and they want
Speaker 3: to make an extra ten bucks off that ticket. I
Speaker 3: don't know if anyone. I certainly don't have an issue
Speaker 3: with that. You know, we're at NIVA really concerned though
Speaker 3: about you know, again the industrial level scalpers that are
Speaker 3: using these really sophisticated tools to build customers kind of.
Speaker 1: On mass you have seven venues. How many different ticketing
Speaker 1: companies do you use?
Speaker 2: We use one venu.
Speaker 3: We have a great partner and access at our six venues.
Speaker 3: We do promote shows in outside rooms and so you know,
Speaker 3: we'll use the ticketing system that those rooms use.
Speaker 1: Let's say you own first avenue. So traditional only a
Speaker 1: ticketing company would pay the venue for an exclusive and
Speaker 1: that's where a lot of the fee comes from. So
Speaker 1: if you're with access, how do you negotiate the fee.
Speaker 2: That was negotiated under very.
Speaker 3: Want? I think we negotiate our contract in twenty twenty,
Speaker 3: so very kind of stressful terms. But again, I think
Speaker 3: everybody looks for different things in their partners, right, Like
Speaker 3: some folks that are maybe more consumed, more concerned.
Speaker 2: With with brokers will go for.
Speaker 3: Some solutions that allow for like a waitlist or you know,
Speaker 3: that don't allow people to resell. Some people want the
Speaker 3: the reach and the kind of broad marketplace the ticketmaster has.
Speaker 3: Some people want to go with whoever the dominant seller
Speaker 3: in their market is to try to again get in
Speaker 3: front of more eyes. We really and liked the team
Speaker 3: at Access. Love Steph Streeter, I love Brian and felt
Speaker 3: like they were the best. They're the best partner for
Speaker 3: our business.
Speaker 1: Okay, but a lot of the shows you do, the
Speaker 1: club shows are the ones that get the most attention.
Speaker 1: For fees. It's one thing if you have one hundred
Speaker 1: dollars ticket in the fee is fifteen dollars. It's another
Speaker 1: thing if you have a twenty dollars ticket and the
Speaker 1: fees are fifteen dollars.
Speaker 3: I don't think it's first avenue we have fifteen dollars
Speaker 3: fees on twenty dollars tickets.
Speaker 2: I will go. I will go and check that right after.
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that you have specific but I you know,
Speaker 1: in terms of markets all over the US, this happens
Speaker 1: on a regular basis, right, And so.
Speaker 3: Again, like the fees is negotiated between the promoter of
Speaker 3: the venue and their ticketing provider. And so I'm not
Speaker 3: privy to how people necessarily set their fees, but certainly,
Speaker 3: you know, it's key factor. I would say, when people
Speaker 3: pick up a ticketing partner.
Speaker 1: Okay, So let's say first avenue, you own the building.
Speaker 1: Let's say for a sake of discussion, the ticket is
Speaker 1: twenty dollars. Every shows a little bit different. What would
Speaker 1: be the average fee on that.
Speaker 2: Ticket, probably four dollars?
Speaker 1: Okay, so very low. Okay. So club business, if you
Speaker 1: go back before your time, frequently was supported by the
Speaker 1: record companies. The record companies would buy tickets, they would
Speaker 1: put small bands on the road. That's pretty much evaporated.
Speaker 1: So therefore a lot of clubs went out of business.
Speaker 1: So what is the status of small venues today economically?
Speaker 3: Oh, it's hard, it's difficult. You know, the bands are amazing.
Speaker 3: I feel like there is a kind of proliferation of
Speaker 3: club level bands and do to streaming, folks have kind
Speaker 3: of easier discovery tools potentially in finding bands. But the
Speaker 3: economics of a club is just I mean, I don't
Speaker 3: think it's ever been harder, or even at First Avenue,
Speaker 3: I want to say, our costs are up thirty percent
Speaker 3: from pre pandemic. You know, everything's gone up due to inflation.
Speaker 3: Insurance is insane. You know, just all of the costs
Speaker 3: keep going up, and you don't want to pass it
Speaker 3: on to your customers one hundred percent because you want
Speaker 3: them to again, like enjoy going to a show and
Speaker 3: feel like they can afford to go to you know,
Speaker 3: we like to hopefully get people out to shows once
Speaker 3: or twice a month, right, and so you.
Speaker 2: Want them to have a good experience.
Speaker 3: You don't want them to feel like somebody described a
Speaker 3: club they went into that they that have felt like
Speaker 3: a money tornado, Like when you walked in the door,
Speaker 3: they just you know, they were picking you up and
Speaker 3: spinning around trying to get every dollar out of your pocket.
Speaker 3: You know, we don't want to We don't want to
Speaker 3: do that. But the the strains on running and probably
Speaker 3: you know any small business these days are pretty intense.
Speaker 1: So what's the overall margin?
Speaker 3: I mean, we try to hit six percent profit margin.
Speaker 2: That's our goal.
Speaker 1: Wow, that's really low. What about merch? Do you take
Speaker 1: a percentage of merch?
Speaker 3: We vary based on the rooms. You know, merch is
Speaker 3: negotiated as a deal point between the bookers and the
Speaker 3: agents when they're working out the deal.
Speaker 1: Okay, because there is blowback, especially from smaller acts saying, hey,
Speaker 1: we're there, we're struggling. Why don't we get one hundred
Speaker 1: percent of the merch? What would you say to them?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I.
Speaker 3: Hear that, and I you know, the counter argument to
Speaker 3: that is, you know, there's areas in the venue that
Speaker 3: are reserved. There are expenses that go along with processing merch.
Speaker 3: Like I said, it's a deal point, and we'd like
Speaker 3: to view it as you know, we're an ecosystem. We're
Speaker 3: in this together to make it profitable for the band,
Speaker 3: to make sure that the venues can still stand business,
Speaker 3: to make sure the customers still have a great experience,
Speaker 3: and so you know, it all goes into the economics
Speaker 3: of a deal and making a show work for all parties.
Speaker 1: There have been all these stories in the media about
Speaker 1: younger generations consuming less alcohol. To what degree has that
Speaker 1: affected your business To what we do you see it?
Speaker 3: We see it hugely. I think I was on a panel.
Speaker 3: I was on a music biz panel and kind of
Speaker 3: throughout that point when I thought was kind of like
Speaker 3: a throw away point and actually get it ended up
Speaker 3: getting picked up by by Billboard and had some TikTok memes.
Speaker 3: So we're seeing it especially in our younger audience. You know,
Speaker 3: the older audience, they're still drinking to show to two beers,
Speaker 3: two drinks per person, but the younger audience, you know,
Speaker 3: the bars are just anemic these days, and so there's
Speaker 3: a few diferent theories floating around. One is just edibles,
Speaker 3: and it's much cheaper and easier to you know, pop
Speaker 3: an edible than it is to spend ten bucks on a.
Speaker 2: Beer ten bucks on a drink.
Speaker 3: The other theory is that, you know, this generation, they
Speaker 3: spent their formative kind of drinking education years in COVID,
Speaker 3: and so they might not even they don't necessarily.
Speaker 2: Know what they drink. They don't know what they like
Speaker 2: to drink. They don't know the.
Speaker 3: Structure the systems of going up to a bar and ordering,
Speaker 3: and that might be a little bit overwhelming, and so
Speaker 3: they just choose to not engage at all. Obviously, there's
Speaker 3: a mental health or a wellness which is beyond important, and.
Speaker 2: Not drinking seems to.
Speaker 3: I would say that it's great for your mental health
Speaker 3: and wellness, but not everyone seems to agree these days.
Speaker 3: So there's a number of different factors that I think
Speaker 3: going into effect of seeing our numbers at maybe half
Speaker 3: some some shows half two a third of what they
Speaker 3: would have been pre pandemic, you.
Speaker 1: Just own that or do you think of some other
Speaker 1: way to make up the revenue?
Speaker 2: You have to make up the revenue.
Speaker 3: I mean, if you don't make up the revenue, you're
Speaker 3: not going to be in business, right, So, you know,
Speaker 3: a lot of folks are I think after after the
Speaker 3: Billboard article came out, I got every single NA option
Speaker 3: under the sun reaching out, So certainly, you know, increasing
Speaker 3: the NA.
Speaker 2: Options non alcoholic sorry, yes.
Speaker 3: Not alcoholics, so non alcoholic beers, non alcoholic cocktails, root beer,
Speaker 3: et cetera. So also we're you know, advertising more like
Speaker 3: drink specials to make it easy to order at the bar,
Speaker 3: like okay, here's the here's the drink of the night.
Speaker 3: You don't need to think about what you're ordering, you
Speaker 3: don't need to stress out about it. Here, here's two
Speaker 3: options that you choose from. And so trying a very
Speaker 3: you know, a varied degree.
Speaker 1: How did you end up owning and running First Avenue.
Speaker 3: So my father was part of was best friends with
Speaker 3: the founder named Alan finger Hut. They were they would
Speaker 3: actually went to elementary school together, so they were best
Speaker 3: friends in nineteen seventy when Alan inherited a bunch of
Speaker 3: money and thought it would be a great idea to
Speaker 3: open a rock club. And so my dad came from
Speaker 3: a very you know, working class. His parents owned a
Speaker 3: little corner grocery store. He went to the University of Minnesota,
Speaker 3: I got his accounting degree, and so he you know,
Speaker 3: wor worked on the books and it was kind of
Speaker 3: a business confidant to Alan. So First Time Who opened
Speaker 3: in nineteen seventy and then was run locally for a
Speaker 3: couple of years and then run by a company out
Speaker 3: of Kansas City with renamed Uncle Sam's untill it then
Speaker 3: became First Avenue and the owner's share the operations came
Speaker 3: in house, and so my dad was kind of loosely
Speaker 3: associated with Alan in the club until two thousand and
Speaker 3: four when they had a falling out and they actually
Speaker 3: were part of an ownership group that purchased the property
Speaker 3: in two thousand and so, as part of the legal
Speaker 3: settlement for their falling out, my dad ended up with
Speaker 3: the property. Alan ended up with the operations. I think
Speaker 3: less than a year after that, I want to say,
Speaker 3: the operations went into bankruptcy, and so my dad, as
Speaker 3: the landlord, was able to purchase the assets at a
Speaker 3: bankruptcy in two thousand and four. I was working in
Speaker 3: Los Angeles working in TV and film production when he
Speaker 3: had a stroke in two thousand and nine, and so
Speaker 3: I hadn't been home in a while, and I flew
Speaker 3: home and stepped in the club and just fell in
Speaker 3: love with the main room and what First Avenue was
Speaker 3: and what it means to the people in Minneapolis and
Speaker 3: the impact it has and everything that it's about, and
Speaker 3: started kind of working under him.
Speaker 1: Then. Okay, so when you were growing up, was your
Speaker 1: father just the accountant for the club or was it like, hey,
Speaker 1: you can get into the club whenever you want, and
Speaker 1: you went all the time and took your friends.
Speaker 3: Yeah, sorry, I said that, long story. I did not
Speaker 3: grow up, as you know, the daughter of a rock
Speaker 3: club owner. Certainly not how my kids are growing up
Speaker 3: right where it's a cold, snowy day, let's take a
Speaker 3: soccer ball and kick it around the main room. But
Speaker 3: I grew up being obsessed with going to concerts, and
Speaker 3: actually having my dad involved in the club actually was
Speaker 3: a negative for me, because you know, I would sneak
Speaker 3: out of the house and take the bus downtown and
Speaker 3: show up at the club to go to concerts and
Speaker 3: kind of like put my hair over my face and
Speaker 3: try to hope no one recognize me so that they
Speaker 3: wouldn't call my dad to come and.
Speaker 2: Pick me up.
Speaker 1: Okay, you go to college in New York. People have
Speaker 1: no idea how sophisticated Minnesota is, although I will say,
Speaker 1: as cold as it is in the winter, that's how
Speaker 1: fucking hot it is in the summer. But what do
Speaker 1: people not understand about Minnesota.
Speaker 3: First of all, it is thirty five degrees today in January,
Speaker 3: and it feels like a fucking miracle. So it's not
Speaker 3: always cold in the winter people. What don't people understand?
Speaker 3: I mean, it is heaven on Earth. I think there's
Speaker 3: no better place in the world than Minnesota in like
Speaker 3: June July. So what the winter gives us? Yes, yes,
Speaker 3: it is cold. It is usually exceptionally cold, but it
Speaker 3: gives us a heartiness and an optimism and a real
Speaker 3: sense of gratitude because then the summer comes and it's
Speaker 3: like everyone's in a good mood. You're enjoying every minute
Speaker 3: it is. You know, it gives you a sense of seasons.
Speaker 3: It gives you a sense of inevitability. You know. I'm
Speaker 3: raising my kids here and I am so grateful for
Speaker 3: their ability to grow up in Minnesota because in a
Speaker 3: world where you have everything at the tip of your
Speaker 3: fingertips and everything is kind of designed around comfort, I
Speaker 3: think it's incredibly important to experience cold weather and to experience,
Speaker 3: you know, elements and nature that they can't always control.
Speaker 1: To what degree do those two things affect music business,
Speaker 1: both cold in the winter and wanting to be outside
Speaker 1: in the summer.
Speaker 3: So it's interesting we you know, looked at our capacity sold.
Speaker 3: You know, shows in January and Minnesota do exceptionally well,
Speaker 3: there's not there's not a lot of them, but the
Speaker 3: shows that we do have actually end up being you know,
Speaker 3: ten or fifteen percent sold above where our shows the
Speaker 3: rest of the year are. Like I said, I think
Speaker 3: having the inevitability of winter and having the experience of
Speaker 3: such extreme cold gives people a sense of joy and
Speaker 3: a sense of community. And I'm going to mispronounce it,
Speaker 3: but Heiger like like the joyousness of being together, especially
Speaker 3: in the winter, makes people more willing to go out,
Speaker 3: more willing to take risks on new bands, more willing
Speaker 3: to be a part of the live music community. You know,
Speaker 3: we hear all the time that you know, the Twin
Speaker 3: Cities punches above its weight in terms of ticket sales
Speaker 3: and in terms of interest and events. And I think
Speaker 3: a lot of it has to do with the fact that,
Speaker 3: you know, we're all here in negative ten degree weather.
Speaker 3: We all survived it together, and we want to be
Speaker 3: a part of something really cool and beautiful.
Speaker 1: So you end up leaving New York going to Los Angeles.
Speaker 1: How was that?
Speaker 3: The weather was great? The weather was fucking phenomenal, you know.
Speaker 3: I I went to NYU and I graduated right around
Speaker 3: September eleventh, and there weren't in jobs.
Speaker 2: And my friend most of my friends had gone to
Speaker 2: film school and.
Speaker 3: They were moving to LA So I moved to LA
Speaker 3: and had, you know, met some really wonderful friends.
Speaker 2: I met. My wife had a.
Speaker 3: Really beautiful experience, but personally, I'm just being thrilled to
Speaker 3: be back in Minnesota.
Speaker 1: Okay, your wife is in the film business, which is
Speaker 1: really concentrated in LA. How do you manage this?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: She you know, I commuted for almost a decade. I
Speaker 3: would take the Red Eye out on Sunday and then
Speaker 3: come back on the seven fifty Thursday night flight. And
Speaker 3: so now we're in Minnesota. She's actually commuting. Her job
Speaker 3: works out of New York, so she's going to New
Speaker 3: York every other week. And maybe it's a secret to
Speaker 3: a happy marriage. You know, we've been together maybe sixteen
Speaker 3: years and are probably happier than ever before.
Speaker 1: How'd you meet her?
Speaker 2: We were set up old school?
Speaker 1: Really was it instant romance?
Speaker 2: It took a few dates.
Speaker 3: I was just out of a relationship and she was
Speaker 3: newly sober, so we had a few months to figure
Speaker 3: all that out.
Speaker 1: And what is it like being an out powerful business
Speaker 1: woman today is to what degree is their homophobia that
Speaker 1: you encounter?
Speaker 2: I'm really lucky.
Speaker 3: I mean I think going from you know, n Yu
Speaker 3: to the film industry to Minneapolis, have not encountered so
Speaker 3: much homophobia and and feel like, you know, again, maybe
Speaker 3: stepping into a family business and stepping into a thriving
Speaker 3: business and having such a great team. I feel very
Speaker 3: fortunate to have not experienced really that much negative negative
Speaker 3: impacts due to gender sexuality.
Speaker 4: What about sexism, It's certainly there.
Speaker 3: It's certainly there. I remember, you know, a fair amount.
Speaker 3: I'm I like to, you know, make relationships and reach out,
Speaker 3: and certainly there have been a few missing, mistaken outreaches.
Speaker 3: But you know, at least nothing outright that I that
Speaker 3: I can recall, which I again feel like I have
Speaker 3: to just express how grateful I am because I know
Speaker 3: that's not a lot of people's experiences.
Speaker 1: Okay, so your father has this stroke. Are you coming
Speaker 1: back to Minneapolis to run the club reluctantly? Or are
Speaker 1: you saying this is what I want to do, or
Speaker 1: you say, well i'll manage it for a month. What
Speaker 1: what goes for your head?
Speaker 3: I was just stepping in to make sure, you know,
Speaker 3: nothing got messed up while he was sick. And really
Speaker 3: my thought process was, okay, there's you know, two big companies.
Speaker 2: I wonder who I'm going to.
Speaker 3: Sell this to because I was pretty happy in my
Speaker 3: career and I just met my wife and pretty settled,
Speaker 3: and so I was like, okay, I wonder you know
Speaker 3: which liven sure e g. I wonder this will this
Speaker 3: will be fun. Who's who's going to be the highest better?
Speaker 3: And again, like I said, I just stepped to the
Speaker 3: main room and kind of the impact of what First
Speaker 3: Avenue is, what it means, the legacy that it carries,
Speaker 3: just was really intense. And so you know, when I
Speaker 3: met these folks, and I think one of the quotes was,
Speaker 3: you know, I said, okay, well, if you're interested, why
Speaker 3: do you come to Minneapolis, see the room, see what's
Speaker 3: going on. And they said, well, I don't just see it.
Speaker 3: A club's a club. My guys say it's good. And
Speaker 3: that was the moment I said, Okay, I'm just going
Speaker 3: to have to do it. This can't happen.
Speaker 1: And you have a sibling too, right, yep?
Speaker 2: I have an older sister. She's not involved. She's in
Speaker 2: Hood River.
Speaker 1: Organ okay, and to what degree she involved? Financially?
Speaker 2: I own one hundred percent.
Speaker 1: Okay. So this is a sophisticated business. People think, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: you sell tickets, you open the door, you make money.
Speaker 1: So your father is out of the picture for a while.
Speaker 1: You're there how do you come up to speed and
Speaker 1: what mistakes do you make?
Speaker 3: Oh, every mistake, every mistake under the book. I was
Speaker 3: lucky that my dad ended up recovering within a few months,
Speaker 3: and so I really got, you know, to learn under
Speaker 3: him and to watch him manage. But in terms of
Speaker 3: I also I am not a talent buyer, and that
Speaker 3: I think is the hardest job in the world, and
Speaker 3: really the quarterback of the music club world. So I
Speaker 3: again was so lucky to step in the most incredible
Speaker 3: team at First Avenue, Nate and Sonya and Ashley just.
Speaker 2: Really really incredible, incredible folks.
Speaker 1: So how long does a concert buyer last at First Avenue?
Speaker 3: How long?
Speaker 2: Like how long are they in the venue?
Speaker 1: How long before they move on?
Speaker 3: Hopefully never the concert buyers? I mean, the thing about
Speaker 3: Minnesota is people we call it a boomerang state because
Speaker 3: people who grew up here, even if they leave, like
Speaker 3: like me, they tend to come back. And once people
Speaker 3: move here, they tend to not leave.
Speaker 2: Because it's it's.
Speaker 3: So amazing, as I've talked about before, and so we
Speaker 3: have our customers, you know, from the time that they
Speaker 3: first discover live music. I'm fourteen fifteen, We do you
Speaker 3: know the rock and roll Playhouse for kids? You know music,
Speaker 3: So we try to get them at age two, right, we'll.
Speaker 1: Tell us about the rock and roll of playhouse.
Speaker 3: Oh it's really amazing, you know, working with the Brooken
Speaker 3: Bulf folks. But so it's Saturday or Sunday mornings a theme,
Speaker 3: so Taylor Swift for kids or you know my son.
Speaker 2: I have a nine year old son.
Speaker 3: He's obsessed with Green Day, Like it's all all he
Speaker 3: listens to, all he ever wants to play. It's just
Speaker 3: his the beal and end all of his musical experience
Speaker 3: right now. So we did the you know rock and
Speaker 3: roll Playhouse plays Green Day and it was all punk
Speaker 3: music and kids showing up in mohawks. It was the
Speaker 3: most fun. And really kids just get to come and
Speaker 3: run around. I think our theory is, well, they can't
Speaker 3: do any they can't do much worse damage than drunk
Speaker 3: people can do, so this won't be that big of
Speaker 3: a deal. And you know, like I said, we see
Speaker 3: concert going and we see the live music experience as
Speaker 3: being a lifestyle.
Speaker 2: Not just something you do, not just you know, not
Speaker 2: just something.
Speaker 3: To avoid your everyday life, but really like as kind
Speaker 3: of the heart and soul of what makes life worth living.
Speaker 3: So the earlier that we can introduce kids to that
Speaker 3: experience and have them see the joy and the positivity
Speaker 3: and all the amazing things that live music can do
Speaker 3: for your soul and for your well being, the better.
Speaker 1: So let's say, first avenue to make the numbers work,
Speaker 1: how many dates do you want a year?
Speaker 3: Yeah, so in the different venues, you know, we have
Speaker 3: different KPIs you try to hit.
Speaker 2: I think first.
Speaker 3: Avenue tell people what that is key performance indicators, so
Speaker 3: you know, metrics, metrics.
Speaker 2: That we try to hit.
Speaker 3: So we have you know, the seven Street End Tree,
Speaker 3: which is our two hundred and fifty cap room. You know,
Speaker 3: we want to do three hundred and twenty days. We
Speaker 3: want to effectively. I think last year maybe we did
Speaker 3: three hundred and sixty days, So we want to be
Speaker 3: open almost every day. The main room, which is fifteen
Speaker 3: hundred and fifty capacity. Most well known were Prince Shop,
Speaker 3: Purple Rain and Still you know, carrying on the legacy
Speaker 3: of the Replacements and Whoscredo in Soul Asylum and all
Speaker 3: the amazing bands of the Minneapolis scene.
Speaker 2: That's fifteen fifty.
Speaker 3: We want to do maybe one hundred and eighty one
Speaker 3: hundred and ninety shows a year. We have a Palace
Speaker 3: Theater which is twenty three hundred. It's a ga floor
Speaker 3: and a seated balcony. You know, maybe we're trying to
Speaker 3: do sixty shows a year there. So we vary it
Speaker 3: based on the room.
Speaker 1: So you come to Minnesota, you have one venue, how
Speaker 1: do you end up with seven venues?
Speaker 2: It turns out.
Speaker 3: Running a venue is really hard and a lot of
Speaker 3: people don't like to do it. So, you know, I
Speaker 3: stepped in in two thousand and nine. We had first
Speaker 3: avenue in the seventh Street Entry, and we were booking
Speaker 3: a lot of shows outside of our venues. You know,
Speaker 3: we want to be we want to be able to
Speaker 3: service artists at every stage of their career when they
Speaker 3: come to Minnesota, if you're just starting out, if it's
Speaker 3: your first play in the state of the country, all
Speaker 3: the way up to like building your fan base here,
Speaker 3: giving you a solid home base and helping helping them build.
Speaker 2: Their career and their fan base. So, you know, we started.
Speaker 3: Doing shows at rooms around town, and we were doing
Speaker 3: a whole lot at this this venue called the Turf Club.
Speaker 3: So you know, the economics of the business. If you
Speaker 3: don't oh, if you don't have the inside, it's pretty
Speaker 3: hard to make it work. So we just met with
Speaker 3: the owner and he said, you know what, I got
Speaker 3: two bars, and my wife says, that's one too many.
Speaker 3: So we bought the Turf Club and then we uh
Speaker 3: the cityct polishly came to us and wanted to open
Speaker 3: the or renovate the Palace. Theater had been dark for
Speaker 3: maybe years. I'm didn't get my numbers wrong, but they
Speaker 3: wanted to They wanted to renovate it. They wanted a
Speaker 3: local partner to help promote it. So we stepped in
Speaker 3: along with our great partners from Chicago, Jam and Jerry Michaelson,
Speaker 3: and we worked on the renovation that opened in twenty seventeen,
Speaker 3: and then the we were doing a bunch of shows
Speaker 3: also at the fine Line. Those folks didn't want to
Speaker 3: operate anymore, so they came to us. We have a
Speaker 3: thousand seat historic theater called the Fitzgerald in Saint Paul.
Speaker 3: You know the radio station. They didn't want to own
Speaker 3: that anymore. So we kind of became, I think the
Speaker 3: go tos of when people didn't want to operate their
Speaker 3: venues anymore. I think we were seen as good operators,
Speaker 3: good local partners, try to operate, you know, ethically.
Speaker 2: And well and.
Speaker 3: With the full way to the community of mind. So
Speaker 3: that's how that's how we grew and then were developing
Speaker 3: an amphitheater. Will start construction soon hopefully, and so that'll
Speaker 3: be an eighty two hundred boutique urban amphitheater right on
Speaker 3: the Mississippi River in a neighborhood called North Minneapolis. It's
Speaker 3: a really kind of marginalized, disenfranchised community. So that project
Speaker 3: is aiming to be more than just a stage and
Speaker 3: seating area, but really generating renewal and revival for the
Speaker 3: local community as well.
Speaker 1: Okay, you're the operator to what degree in these cases
Speaker 1: do you own the facility?
Speaker 3: We own all the buildings. We have one lease, but
Speaker 3: we owned the properties for the others.
Speaker 1: Okay, and Jerry Michaelson as your partner in one theater.
Speaker 1: Where did the money come for the rest of the places.
Speaker 3: It came from loans and it came from you know,
Speaker 3: we I am fortunate in that, you know, money is
Speaker 3: not my as an owners, my motivator, and so I
Speaker 3: put all profits and all revenue kind of back back
Speaker 3: into the companies.
Speaker 1: Okay, you talk about building an amphitheater. Generally speaking, amphitheaters
Speaker 1: are controlled by Live Nation and even people in markets
Speaker 1: where they or not have had hard times. So how
Speaker 1: do you plan to compete?
Speaker 2: That is a.
Speaker 3: Great question, all the more reason to come back on
Speaker 3: your podcast in three years and I can give you
Speaker 3: the update.
Speaker 1: Okay, then let's flip the story over. You like to
Speaker 1: be the Minnesota partner for all these acts that used
Speaker 1: to mean, well, you know, you played them in the club,
Speaker 1: you played them in the Excel Center. That doesn't really
Speaker 1: happen anymore, right.
Speaker 2: No, no, it doesn't.
Speaker 3: And I think maybe we're the you know, fortunate or
Speaker 3: not fortunate to not have that kind of arena backdrop.
Speaker 3: You know, we kind of started with Fresh Eyes a
Speaker 3: decade or so ago, but certainly, you know, listening to
Speaker 3: your podcasts and knowing the history of the industry, that
Speaker 3: that has been an impact for sure.
Speaker 1: And you're an independent there in the Minneapolis area. If
Speaker 1: they don't go with you, what's your competition.
Speaker 3: Live Nation and the other We have other independent venues
Speaker 3: in town also, but Live Nation has competing venues at
Speaker 3: most levels.
Speaker 1: And so how do you end up getting the talent
Speaker 1: as opposed to Live Nation.
Speaker 3: I think a combination of ky, you're going to make
Speaker 3: me reveal all my secrets.
Speaker 2: I don't know if I can do that.
Speaker 1: No, you know, no way, you don't say anything you
Speaker 1: don't want to say. But is it because you're more localized,
Speaker 1: or you have a better sales bitch, or the numbers
Speaker 1: are better? Generally? What gets you the talent?
Speaker 3: Like I said, I'm not a talent buyer, But I
Speaker 3: do think that we have the best team of anyone
Speaker 3: anywhere in the country. I mean, I just can't say
Speaker 3: enough amazing things about you know, everyone who works at
Speaker 3: First Avenue works there because they really care, you know,
Speaker 3: because they love the place and they want to see
Speaker 3: it succeed and they want to do the very best
Speaker 3: they can for the mission. And I also think we
Speaker 3: you know, we have the best rooms without a doubt.
Speaker 3: I don't I wouldn't want to, you know, operate a
Speaker 3: room that I didn't think was the best venue of
Speaker 3: its size in the market. We go out of our
Speaker 3: way to treat people really well. We are the local guys,
Speaker 3: you know. We are committed to this community. We're committing
Speaker 3: to doing everything we can to nurture and sustain the
Speaker 3: concert going community of the Twin Cities. And so I
Speaker 3: think the you know, bands get that. Some don't, but
Speaker 3: you know, a lot of bands want to.
Speaker 2: Be a part of it.
Speaker 3: They see what we've built here, They see the job
Speaker 3: that we do. They see that, you know, they know
Speaker 3: everything is going to be one hundred percent taking care
Speaker 3: of all eyes dotted, all teas cross. They want to
Speaker 3: play the best rooms. We just put in, you know,
Speaker 3: the brand new state of the art sound system, the
Speaker 3: first L two installation in the country. We have, you know,
Speaker 3: the best facilities, and we go out of our way
Speaker 3: to create the best experiences for bands and for artists
Speaker 3: and for customers.
Speaker 1: Okay, as one goes north in Minnesota becomes more rural,
Speaker 1: there is Dluth. You go up north, you know there
Speaker 1: are other things. Do you want to expand do you
Speaker 1: do shows there? Or are you Minneapolis Saint Paul focused?
Speaker 2: Right, we do a couple of shows in Duluth.
Speaker 3: I think, you know, we will try to service the
Speaker 3: artists wherever they want to play. We kind of we
Speaker 3: view our responsibility as making sure that the artist has
Speaker 3: the best experience and plays the right room in the
Speaker 3: right city at the right town. And so we have
Speaker 3: done shows in Duluth. We've done shows, like I said,
Speaker 3: at outdoor venues, at other folks venues. It's not you know,
Speaker 3: in the plans right now to build our own venue.
Speaker 3: But like I said, like we want to service the bands.
Speaker 1: So if I'm coming to Minneapolis and I can sell
Speaker 1: out First Avenue and I want to play more in
Speaker 1: your area, how many places.
Speaker 2: Can I play larger than First Avenue or No?
Speaker 1: No, Like I come, I can sell out First Avenue Minneapolis,
Speaker 1: I say, Dana, I'd like to play more in the
Speaker 1: Minnesota area. Do you say, well, you know, after you
Speaker 1: sell a thousand tickets, maybe de Luthen that's it. Or
Speaker 1: are there are other markets in Minnesota that you can play.
Speaker 3: Many? Yeah, the Twin Cities are the major metropolitan area.
Speaker 3: There is a five thousand capacity Amphitheater, you know, maybe
Speaker 3: an hour north. There's Rochester that has the Mayo that
Speaker 3: they've got room down there. There's Mankato. So there's other
Speaker 3: like tertiary markets that people can play in Minnesota.
Speaker 1: And that Amphitheater is that a Live Nation.
Speaker 2: Amphitheater, No, that's a man at Amphtheater.
Speaker 1: Okay, so you don't do the buying, what do you do?
Speaker 3: I do the kind of management, oversight, business operations, new venues,
Speaker 3: the amphitheaters is taking up you know, a large majority
Speaker 3: of my time, but also kind of staff management, and
Speaker 3: again like the financial side of things.
Speaker 1: Okay, everything's different post COVID. But how often are you
Speaker 1: showing up at these venues and at these shows?
Speaker 3: Oh? I try to get to four venues a week,
Speaker 3: or you know, I try to go out two nights
Speaker 3: a week more, you know, in this in the busier months.
Speaker 1: And does every employee know you?
Speaker 2: Most do?
Speaker 3: I'm trying to think sometimes, you know, if we have
Speaker 3: a new employee or we have about four hundred employees.
Speaker 3: So I don't want to say every single one, but
Speaker 3: I like to talk to the employees. I like to
Speaker 3: introduce myself, so I try to make sure that that
Speaker 3: I meet them.
Speaker 1: Are you working seven days a week?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Of course we have all right.
Speaker 1: That's why I'm asking. And you know, there's a great
Speaker 1: line at Katzenberg at Disney. If you don't come in
Speaker 1: on Saturday, don't even think about coming in on Sunday.
Speaker 1: But so when do you start and when do you finish.
Speaker 1: I mean, is this typical all day all the time?
Speaker 3: You know, I am available all day all the time.
Speaker 3: I try to eat dinner with my kids every night,
Speaker 3: so I try to you know, be home from you know,
Speaker 3: six to eight. That's kind of my window. It's my
Speaker 3: favorite time of the entire day. It's it's when I
Speaker 3: am you know, my most happiest and just you know
Speaker 3: again seeing them getting filled.
Speaker 2: In on their day.
Speaker 3: So but yeah, I'll work from eight am to you know,
Speaker 3: midnight sometimes.
Speaker 1: So what is the future? You're the head of the
Speaker 1: of Diva. What is the future of the small venue
Speaker 1: in the music business?
Speaker 3: You know, I'm super excited. I also, you know, want
Speaker 3: to say I stepped down as board president a few
Speaker 3: months ago. Andre Perry is the new board president. We
Speaker 3: have a great executive director. I'm super excited about the
Speaker 3: group purchasing organization that we're rolling out. I think that
Speaker 3: the future of the small club is always gonna, you know,
Speaker 3: lay in the networking communications, in the community of talking
Speaker 3: to other folks and seeing how other people are operating
Speaker 3: efficiently and in working together. That was you know, the
Speaker 3: vision and the the kind of m O behind Neiva,
Speaker 3: and I think that is going to be even more
Speaker 3: important in the next decade as we continue to hit
Speaker 3: all these struggles.
Speaker 1: Now, the boomers were the first ones who really started
Speaker 1: to go to clubs regularly, the blow up of rock
Speaker 1: and roll, et cetera. Now is there going into the sunset.
Speaker 1: It feels confident about the audience and the acts.
Speaker 2: I think I.
Speaker 3: Feel confident in club's abilities to adapt to what customers want.
Speaker 3: I think that's a really great question because we know
Speaker 3: that your generations, they're more you know, focused on the
Speaker 3: social media elements and sometimes on like the more.
Speaker 2: Flashier show. Is that that's the right.
Speaker 3: Word, or like the kind of once in a lifetime experiences.
Speaker 3: But I have absolute faith in the power of music
Speaker 3: and the power of a song and that live music
Speaker 3: experience to totally transform somebody's life and to transform not
Speaker 3: only just their like daily experience, but in you know,
Speaker 3: everything about their continents. And so I think that is
Speaker 3: again when I look at clubs like that is the
Speaker 3: experience that we offer is for customers to come in
Speaker 3: and have that really intimate experience with the artists, get
Speaker 3: to see hear their favorite song in three D be
Speaker 3: treated really well. And so I have absolute faith in
Speaker 3: that experience to transform another generation.
Speaker 1: And if you do twelve hundred shows a year or
Speaker 1: how many are unprofitable.
Speaker 3: Oh man, more than I would care to admit in
Speaker 3: a public podcast. But like I said, we're we're We
Speaker 3: do shows for a lot of different reasons, right, Like
Speaker 3: we all know Minneapolis went through a really hard couple
Speaker 3: of years. It's still going through an exceptionally challenging time.
Speaker 3: I like to keep our clubs open. I think, you know,
Speaker 3: giving folks hours to work. I know downtown Minneapolis is
Speaker 3: safer when we're open. We want to generate that economic
Speaker 3: impact for our city. We want to give people those experiences.
Speaker 3: And so we have a lot of reasons to open
Speaker 3: and to do you know, local bands, you know, given
Speaker 3: the experience to like play on the stage, build their audience,
Speaker 3: get some local fans to you know, do dance nights
Speaker 3: on a night that you know, otherwise we might be closed,
Speaker 3: you know. I like the attitude of our company to
Speaker 3: be yes, like, yes, let's try it. We want to
Speaker 3: be experimental. We're local, we're small, let's take some risks,
Speaker 3: let's have some fun. So we're probably more inclined to
Speaker 3: do unprofitable shows than other folks because there's a kind
Speaker 3: of greater mission behind them.
Speaker 4: And how big is your private business private events?
Speaker 2: Yeah, not anything.
Speaker 3: Really not No, We're we're but we're we're doing a
Speaker 3: lot of you know, bands and ticketed events are our priority,
Speaker 3: and so they're always going to have They're always gonna
Speaker 3: have first priority on our calendar. They're always going to
Speaker 3: be who we want to cater to.
Speaker 1: And then what would you tell to young women if
Speaker 1: they wanted to get into this business?
Speaker 3: You know, I do a lot of informational interviews and
Speaker 3: mostly with young women, and I would say, you know,
Speaker 3: my advice is always you've got to work really hard.
Speaker 3: Nothing just comes to you. You know, it's fun, but
Speaker 3: it's also don't underestimate the time it takes and the sacrifices,
Speaker 3: and you know the fact that like if you want
Speaker 3: to work nine to five and you know, go to
Speaker 3: the gym over lunch, and that this might not be
Speaker 3: the career for you. You know, I think people you
Speaker 3: have to you have to be willing to really sink
Speaker 3: your teeth into it and give it all you have.
Speaker 1: And you talked about when you first came back to Minneapolis,
Speaker 1: when your father was ill about gussing it all up
Speaker 1: to sell to live Nation or age. How long do
Speaker 1: you plan to do this? Would you ever sell? Do
Speaker 1: you see your kids running the business?
Speaker 3: You know, my kids, if they want to, it would
Speaker 3: be nice for them to have the option. I have
Speaker 3: a lot of fun and I absolutely love, love, love
Speaker 3: what I do, and I'm really proud of what we built,
Speaker 3: and i love my team, and so you know, we're
Speaker 3: just really again, we're enjoying what we do. We're enjoying
Speaker 3: our impact on the community. We're enjoying seeing these bands.
Speaker 3: And you know, my favorite thing in the entire world is,
Speaker 3: you know, watching the show and watching people. I don't
Speaker 3: I'll watch the show, but I'll watch people's faces and
Speaker 3: just the change and how they walk into the venue
Speaker 3: from how they walk out, And I couldn't imagine doing
Speaker 3: anything else.
Speaker 1: Two best shows since you've been an owner.
Speaker 2: Two best shows?
Speaker 3: Oh, I'm gonna have to plead the fifth.
Speaker 1: Okay, just talk about one or two highlights?
Speaker 3: Okay, perfect, that's that's a great that's a great question.
Speaker 3: You know, we had the Pretenders and the Entry in September.
Speaker 3: That was a bucket list once in a lifetime, just
Speaker 3: holy shit. I can't believe I am here right now moment.
Speaker 3: I think, you know, Lizzo came up through First Avenue
Speaker 3: and so seeing the rise of Lizzo's career.
Speaker 2: From you know, when we promoted.
Speaker 3: Her album release show to I don't know, one hundred
Speaker 3: people or whatever, and then you know, watching her sill
Speaker 3: out the main room to then come into the palace
Speaker 3: and seeing a true superstar in the making that was
Speaker 3: that was a real joy to behold as well.
Speaker 1: You are so warm and open and smiling. If we're
Speaker 1: there settling a show, are you ever a hard ass?
Speaker 1: Or is this who you are twenty four or seven?
Speaker 2: Well, maybe there's.
Speaker 3: A reason I'm not a talent buyer, right, I'm not
Speaker 3: settling that show. I'm buying you a drink and asking
Speaker 3: about how your kids are.
Speaker 1: Okay, Dana, I know that you got to go back
Speaker 1: keeping Minnesodah's Live Entertainment Business. Live has been wonderful talking
Speaker 1: to you, and I know that this is just the
Speaker 1: middle for you. There's so much left to do. I
Speaker 1: want to thank you for talking to my audience.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me, and I'm glad
Speaker 3: to hear it. I feel like I'm just just getting
Speaker 3: started to.
Speaker 1: Okay, till next time. This is Bob left sets