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Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

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Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 1: it's affiliates or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true

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Speaker 2: crime all the time. It's Sunday, December seventh, and we

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Speaker 2: hope you had a fantastic weekend. I'm Stephanie Leidecker, joined

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Speaker 2: here of course with Courtney Armstrong and Body Move In,

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Speaker 2: and we have a very special guest tonight. We're joined

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Speaker 2: by the esteemed criminologist, doctor Catherine Ramslin. We'll be talking

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Speaker 2: to her about everything from interviews that she's done with

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Speaker 2: serial killers as well as some modern trends that she's

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Speaker 2: seeing pop up in the area of true crime. Plus

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Speaker 2: also forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan is here to break

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Speaker 2: down the latest in the Luigi Mangion trial, in the

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Speaker 2: new developments in the David pops Our investigation, and all

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Speaker 2: the details surrounding the death of fourteen year olds. So

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Speaker 2: let's read this. Hernandez, first of all, welcome to the show.

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Speaker 2: We're so happy to have you here.

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Speaker 3: Well, thank you for having me and I'm looking forward

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Speaker 3: to this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and just to get a little business taken care

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Speaker 2: of at the top. You know, some of us know

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Speaker 2: you most recently from the Brian Coberger investigation, and I

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Speaker 2: know you are a professor of his, and listen, that

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Speaker 2: is not what you're here to talk about, and we

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Speaker 2: respectfully understand that. If there's anything about that that you

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Speaker 2: want to share or reasoning, great, but just so we're

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Speaker 2: sort of checking that off the list as we get

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Speaker 2: into it, because you know, buying torture kill BTK, there

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Speaker 2: are so many minds to discuss, which is what we'll

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Speaker 2: be kind of focusing on in this in this episode

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Speaker 2: sounds good.

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Speaker 3: I can't talk about him because he was my student

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Speaker 3: and students have protection content and grades, and that's the.

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Speaker 2: Way I knew him, understood, completely understand. So BTK, I

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Speaker 2: know that is something that you've studied so closely. I

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Speaker 2: think we all have sort of seen some of your

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Speaker 2: work even around that case specifically, and it's one that

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Speaker 2: we've touched on a bit in previous episodes, but certainly

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Speaker 2: not with the benefit of you with us. So and again,

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Speaker 2: if anyone's just joining us right now and wants to

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Speaker 2: share Live eight eight eight three one crime, or you

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Speaker 2: could always leave us a talk back on the iHeartRadio

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Speaker 2: app So BTK before we even get there, Courtney, do

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Speaker 2: you want to set up a little bit of the

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Speaker 2: backgrounds of that case in case someone's listening who's not

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Speaker 2: as familiar. Absolutely so.

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Speaker 4: Serial killer Dennis Raider also was known as BTK, standing

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Speaker 4: for Bind Torture Kill. So Dennis Raider terrorized Wichita and

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Speaker 4: Park City, Kansas for decades. Radar murdered ten people between

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Speaker 4: nineteen seventy four and nineteen ninety one, and then he

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Speaker 4: stopped killing, but continued to sort of relive his crimes

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Speaker 4: through fam So for years, the serial killer Dennis Rader

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Speaker 4: blended into the community. He was a church president, a husband,

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Speaker 4: a father, a cub Scout leader and this is all

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Speaker 4: while hiding his secret life. Now, Dennis Rader resurfaced in

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Speaker 4: two thousand and four when he contacted the media again,

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Speaker 4: ultimately leading to his arrest. So, Catherine, if we can

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Speaker 4: ask what originally drew you to study Dennis Radar.

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Speaker 3: There was a woman who decided somehow got him to

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Speaker 3: agree to write a book with her. When he was

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Speaker 3: first arrested in two thousand and five, in twenty tens,

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Speaker 3: which is five years later, I saw her on Facebook

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Speaker 3: and I had not heard that her book came out,

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Speaker 3: so I asked her and she told me she didn't

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Speaker 3: want to write it, and she asked if I wanted to,

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Speaker 3: So I did and wrote a proposal that had to

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Speaker 3: pass muster with the victims' families because they really didn't

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Speaker 3: want a book written about him, but I proposed one

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Speaker 3: that would be done to benefit criminology, law enforcement, and

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Speaker 3: forensic psychology. And if they weren't on board with that,

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Speaker 3: then I didn't want to do it because I wasn't

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Speaker 3: really interested in just having somebody, you know, glad they're

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Speaker 3: on about himself, and they were. They thought that was

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Speaker 3: a good idea, And that's how it all started, really

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Speaker 3: just by a happenstance. I saw this woman who had

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Speaker 3: started things up with him and then didn't want to

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Speaker 3: carry in on.

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Speaker 4: Wow, that's so interesting and also just such a life

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Speaker 4: lesson on following up in general curiosity, because look where

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Speaker 4: that live.

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Speaker 3: I have many examples of that from my writing learner.

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Speaker 5: And I read that book, Confessions of a Serial Killer,

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Speaker 5: The Untold Story of Dennis Raider. It's very, very good.

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Speaker 5: I learned so much. I read that book many many

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Speaker 5: years ago to stuck with me, and I think Stephanie

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Speaker 5: and Courtney can attest to how much I go on

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Speaker 5: and on and on and on and on about it.

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Speaker 5: I'm very impressed. But from your extensive time with Dennis Raider,

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Speaker 5: serial killer dennist Raider, what surprised you the most about

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Speaker 5: his personality or behavior exactly?

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean by that time, I had really studied

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Speaker 3: a lot of Zerich.

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Speaker 6: Oh, I'm sure you know.

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Speaker 3: That was twenty ten, and I had been in the

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Speaker 3: field for some time, and I'd worked with that FBI

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Speaker 3: profilers and detectives, and so it wasn't that it was surprising.

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Speaker 3: But I had an interesting moment with him in the

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Speaker 3: prison where he didn't know I was coming, and when

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Speaker 3: the guards brought and you don't get it's not like

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Speaker 3: what you see on TV where you have a you know,

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Speaker 3: a well a like glass petition between two different rooms

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Speaker 3: with monitors in a maximum security prison, at least in Kansas.

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Speaker 3: And so I was watching them bring him in and

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Speaker 3: he was putting on the what I Hannibal Lecter kind

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Speaker 3: of grouch thing to them, to the guards. But he

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Speaker 3: saw me and he did this instant change to this

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Speaker 3: nice guy. You know, it was pleasant, friendly. It was

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Speaker 3: just so amazing to watch how fast he could make

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Speaker 3: that transition, and that, to me was part of the

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Speaker 3: secret of his success in having this doubled facade where

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Speaker 3: he'd be a family man and a churchgoer and boy scout,

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Speaker 3: you know, volunteer, but at the same time be harboring

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Speaker 3: these very dark kinds of fantasies and he could just

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Speaker 3: switch in and out so fast.

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Speaker 6: Is that the part he called cubing?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, okay, so doctor Catherine Ramsen explains this very well.

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Speaker 5: Dennis Raider had this. It was his idea, I think, right.

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Speaker 3: Well, he called it cooping. I thought he smelled it

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Speaker 3: CEO U, P I n G. But he kept talking

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Speaker 3: about it like it was different sides, and I thought,

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Speaker 3: you mean cubing. So, you know, he says that I

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Speaker 3: came up with it, but he came up with it.

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Speaker 3: I just spelled it correctly.

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Speaker 5: So for those who don't know, cubing is Dennis Raider's

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Speaker 5: personal term for the way he identified separate blocks or cubes,

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Speaker 5: each containing like different versions of himself.

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Speaker 6: No, it's one cubetile like a Rubik's cube, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 6: I know.

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Speaker 3: It's just well, it's like I wish I could I

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Speaker 3: had my I carry around my little cube to share people.

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Speaker 3: One cube multiple sides, so if you can imagine, each

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Speaker 3: side has a label like husband, father, you know, serial killer, burglar, etc.

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Speaker 3: He can shift those sides around depending on the circumstances.

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Speaker 3: He can pivot very quickly from one to another. He

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Speaker 3: has multiple faces, but he's only got one face out

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Speaker 3: outward at any given time. I'm depending on the circumstances.

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Speaker 3: He called them life frames. So the reason it's different

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Speaker 3: and I think better than compartmentalizing is because compartmentalizing conveys

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Speaker 3: the idea that these are all and containers blocked off

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Speaker 3: from one another. And that's kind of the way Ted

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Speaker 3: Bundy described it. He talked about having a security shield,

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Speaker 3: but with Greater it's like it's all integrated and they're

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Speaker 3: just all available for whenever he needs them. And when

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Speaker 3: I saw the speed at which he could make that transition,

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Speaker 3: I thought, that really works a lot better than this

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Speaker 3: notion of compartments.

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Speaker 2: And does that mean is like emotional IQ is very

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Speaker 2: high because again, like we're seeing things from different respectives,

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Speaker 2: very quickly or is that the opposite, that his IQ

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Speaker 2: would be lower.

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Speaker 3: No, it would be that it's he's very superficial. He

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Speaker 3: doesn't have roots in integrity. It's all about what works

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Speaker 3: for me right now? How can I do people? How

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Speaker 3: can I get what I need for me. It's very

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Speaker 3: it's kind of an infantile narcissism, so it's not a

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Speaker 3: high emotional intelligence by any means.

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Speaker 2: It's very nice when you hear people say that person

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Speaker 2: is all things all at once, right, they're just sort

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Speaker 2: of they're playing the room essentially.

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Speaker 3: Well, he can be different things. I don't think it's

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Speaker 3: like playing the room, because I don't think it would

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Speaker 3: be he'll step from one person to the other. I

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Speaker 3: think it's more the circumstances. So what he needs to

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Speaker 3: be to pass is normal, to be in church, to

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Speaker 3: pray with his wife, you know, these are things he

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Speaker 3: has to put on. It's like actors who take on

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Speaker 3: different roles. And I worked with doctor al Carlyle, who

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Speaker 3: is a prison psychologist who worked with Bundy, and he

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Speaker 3: came up with this theory about it being like actors,

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Speaker 3: and we showed that to Rayder while I was working

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Speaker 3: with him, and he thought that that describes it pretty well.

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Speaker 2: Wow. Wow, you're listening to True Crime tonight on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 4: I'm Courtney here with Stephanie Leidecker and Body Move In

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Speaker 4: and Weird. Are so thrilled and honored to be here

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Speaker 4: with doctor Catlin Ramsland. If you have any questions, please

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Speaker 4: hit us on the talkbacks. We'd love to hear from you, Catherine.

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Speaker 4: Are there any large misconceptions that you feel are still

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Speaker 4: out there about BTK.

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Speaker 3: There are a lot of people who decide that he's

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Speaker 3: like he killed John Bennie Ramsey, he's a zobeac, you know.

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Speaker 3: They attribute a lot of unsolved crimes to him. So

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Speaker 3: that's one thing, but another is that and I keep

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Speaker 3: being told that I miss things because there had to

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Speaker 3: have been sexual abuse in his background, or there had

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Speaker 3: to have been a head injury, or there had to

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Speaker 3: have been this and that, because they're going with the formulas.

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Speaker 3: And the reason I wanted to study Dennis Raider is

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Speaker 3: he was an outlier to the formulas. He shows us

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Speaker 3: you have to stop thinking in a formulaic way about

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Speaker 3: these people. Serial killer is not a criminal type. There's

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Speaker 3: no profile of a serial killer each it's a description

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Speaker 3: of a behavior, and there are many, many different versions

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Speaker 3: of what these serial killers are, so stop with the

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Speaker 3: formulas already. But I think that's the one thing that

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Speaker 3: I find in people who are they just believe I

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Speaker 3: miss something because they expect some certain things in his

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Speaker 3: background when I didn't report on them. Then that's I'm

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Speaker 3: just not doing it right. And that's been annoying because

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Speaker 3: I spent fifteen years talking to this guy, a lot

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Speaker 3: more than most other people have, for sure, and I

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Speaker 3: don't think I missed things. I think they're just using

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Speaker 3: formulas to set themselves up with expectations that they believe

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Speaker 3: have to be true. So they don't have to be true.

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Speaker 3: These are just ideas that people had, and the more

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Speaker 3: we've learned, the more we see those ideas just aren't right.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, because we I mean even I do that, I

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Speaker 5: mean talk about it. You know, well you guys will

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Speaker 5: ask me, do you think this is a serial killer?

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Speaker 5: But no, there was no cooling off the formula, right,

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Speaker 5: So we have to get it out of our head

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Speaker 5: that it's one we don't.

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Speaker 3: Even talk about cooling off anymore. That's that's that was

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Speaker 3: one of the questions were in past twenty years that

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Speaker 3: was why the guys changed their definition in two thousand

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Speaker 3: and five. Right, The whole cooling off period was so

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Speaker 3: vague and vacuous that they finally realized, we can't really

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Speaker 3: use that as part of a definition.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting you say that, because even I think, for

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Speaker 2: myself and anyone maybe listening who follows true crime, we

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Speaker 2: ask ourselves this all the time too, Why what's our fascination?

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Speaker 2: What its are we scratching? And I like to think

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Speaker 2: that sometimes it's compartmentalizing in our own worlds, right that. Okay,

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Speaker 2: I understand the formula of something clearly not a serial killer,

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Speaker 2: but in general in true crime. Therefore, I feel safer

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Speaker 2: in the world and.

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Speaker 3: Are about prediction.

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Speaker 7: And when I hear you speak, it's like, it's so fair,

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Speaker 7: because I find myself doing that in the world, and

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Speaker 7: generally speaking, we talk about a lot of dark things

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Speaker 7: all the time, and it's interesting to hear that perspective.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think. I think my advantage in doing this

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Speaker 3: work is not that all the work in psychologists, all

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Speaker 3: the work I did in philosophy, because it lets me

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Speaker 3: float with ambiguity and with unanswered questions a lot more easily,

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Speaker 3: I think than many people, because that is a place

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Speaker 3: that doesn't feel safe, and you have to get used

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Speaker 3: to it if you're going to be able to do

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Speaker 3: this work. But people do love their formulas because it

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Speaker 3: helps us with our expectations and the feeling that we've

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Speaker 3: got it all figured out.

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Speaker 5: So that we can figure it out with the formula, right,

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Speaker 5: Like the idea we hope almost even like that if

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Speaker 5: we study it long enough. Maybe I do data analysis professor,

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Speaker 5: you know, as a profession, and I'm always doing predictive analysis,

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Speaker 5: so if we can find if we can get enough data,

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Speaker 5: we can start predicting behavior.

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Speaker 6: Right.

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Speaker 2: But that I.

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Speaker 3: Think the wonderful thing about human beings is that there's

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Speaker 3: always a bit of unpredictability. No matter how much what

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Speaker 3: you have going for you in terms of all the

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Speaker 3: data and data management, there's always something.

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Speaker 6: There's always an outlier, right.

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Speaker 3: That's why I like the outliers.

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Speaker 5: Right, And that's why you decided to start working with

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Speaker 5: Dennis Reraider because he was kind of like the outlier.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I wanted to understand that, but also use his

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Speaker 3: case as an example of why we should be careful

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Speaker 3: about these formulas because it's really hurting our ability to

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Speaker 3: understand fully a person's life. I studied phenomenology, so my

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Speaker 3: master's degrees is phenomenology and the idea of you have

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Speaker 3: to bracket your expectations so that you can let what's

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Speaker 3: really there show itself to you, because your expectations otherwise

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Speaker 3: can prevent you from seeing.

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Speaker 2: Things, almost like a block. Yeah, yeah, oh my gosh.

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Speaker 4: Well, please stick with us because after the break, I'd

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Speaker 4: love to ask you a few more questions about both

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Speaker 4: philosophy and phenomenology, which I have never heard of till

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Speaker 4: this moment, So stick around. Doctor Kathline Ramsland will also

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Speaker 4: be speaking with us about Eileen Bornos and also how

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Speaker 4: a fender behavior is potentially changing today. Keep it here

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Speaker 4: at True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We've been

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Speaker 2: talking true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here

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Speaker 2: with Courtney Armstrong and Body Movin, my favorite girls in

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Speaker 2: all Things. And we have doctor Katherine Ramslin with us tonight.

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Speaker 2: And if you're not familiar with her work, she's been

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Speaker 2: in over two hundred documentaries. You have for sure seen her.

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Speaker 2: I have seen you in so many that we get

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Speaker 2: a little starstruck. Almost because not only are you an academic,

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Speaker 2: but you have a wide net of the many minds

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Speaker 2: that you've studied. We've been talking about BTK, bind torture kill,

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Speaker 2: a serial killer who you spent over fifteen years studying.

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Speaker 2: To me, that is the scariest of all of the

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Speaker 2: scerial killers, and just in Layman's terms, and forgive me

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Speaker 2: if they're too layman, but what always struck me about

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Speaker 2: BTK specifically was two things. One his ability to be

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Speaker 2: everything to many people, meaning he was a beloved father,

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Speaker 2: he was a beloved partner. People liked him in the

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Speaker 2: real world you mentioned earlier, he would go to church

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Speaker 2: and be you know, philanthropic, people liked him. In fact,

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Speaker 2: his daughter loves him, and how real that world must be.

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Speaker 2: Yet you know he would bind in torture and kill people.

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Speaker 2: You know, he infamously had a very high first kill count,

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Speaker 2: right that he murdered a fan the first time out

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Speaker 2: of the gates and then went back to his simple world.

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Speaker 2: And for me personally, the theory of that is just

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Speaker 2: as scary as scary can be. It like touches into

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Speaker 2: every part of human behavior that I could see myself

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Speaker 2: walking straight into. Right, you believe the facade that sometimes

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Speaker 2: people are putting forward or how they present themselves, they're

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Speaker 2: masking perhaps in some cases. And yet the level of

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Speaker 2: violence he bestowed on people was frankly unparalleled in many ways.

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Speaker 2: So for you to be studying that is that Is

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Speaker 2: there anything that I'm missing that? Really?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I actually don't think his level of violence was unparalleled.

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Speaker 3: Of Ceiling much worse than him by far. He didn't

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Speaker 3: hold people for long periods of time, torturing them and

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Speaker 3: putting their head in the tub and drowning him and

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Speaker 3: pulling it back out and then drowning him again. He

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Speaker 3: didn't do things like that. He was fairly quick. His

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Speaker 3: whole idea of torture family.

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Speaker 2: At one time, though, that's pretty intense.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, he's but he strangled them, he didn't torture.

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Speaker 3: He didn't. The little girl he did, he hanged her

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Speaker 3: from a fright. But I would still say I've seen

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Speaker 3: much more violence than him. I would also I would

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Speaker 3: also say not everybody liked him. He had a fairly

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Speaker 3: rigid personality, and there were there were people in his

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Speaker 3: jurisdiction when he was a compliance officer. I just thought

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Speaker 3: he was an awful person.

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Speaker 2: So I had a family who thought very highly of him.

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Speaker 2: You know, there were parts of his personal life was

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Speaker 2: very from what I've read so well, I mean.

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Speaker 3: His daughter has completely turned on him. Yeah, so I

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Speaker 3: don't know what I would say about that. Her book

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Speaker 3: has certainly moments where he scared her made her uneasy.

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Speaker 3: So you know, everything has got shades of nuance to it,

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Speaker 3: and certainly he does. But really with what we're puzzled

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Speaker 3: to buy with Dennis Rader is his ability to be normal,

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Speaker 3: to act normally, to have a hold a regular job,

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Speaker 3: be a family man, have kids, be a father, be

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Speaker 3: volunteer with the boy Scouts, helping out, being very invested

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Speaker 3: in his church, and at the same time be always

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Speaker 3: trolling around looking for the potential of a victim, and

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Speaker 3: to be breaking into people's houses for burglary, to be

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Speaker 3: feeling like he needed to dominate people and control people.

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Speaker 3: So how does somebody hold all of that kind of

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Speaker 3: fantasy life while also performing as a normal person. I

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Speaker 3: think that's what really fascinates about.

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Speaker 5: Him, performing as a normal person. That's the key right there.

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Speaker 5: So I have a question, doctor, do you think and

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Speaker 5: you know, do you you're very studied, do you think

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Speaker 5: that this normal performing as a normal person. Was that

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Speaker 5: his like that wasn't his real self? Or do you

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Speaker 5: think that the cube the side of him that was

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Speaker 5: bt K, do you think that's his real self?

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Speaker 3: I think they're all his real self.

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Speaker 6: You think they're all his real self.

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Speaker 3: I don't think he's a unified I don't think any

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Speaker 3: of us are, frankly right. Maybe maybe some of us

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Speaker 3: have more sense of integrity than others, But I think

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Speaker 3: I think he had. All of these things are real

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Speaker 3: to him, and the many conversations I've had with him, letters,

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Speaker 3: visits and whatnot, I see I see different sides to him.

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Speaker 3: All of them are real, though, and all of them

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Speaker 3: are meaningful. But he is a spin doctor. He if

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Speaker 3: you want to do Bible study with him, that's what

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Speaker 3: he will be to you. If you want him to

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Speaker 3: be the monster, he will draw his cave monsters for you,

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Speaker 3: and he'll be the serial killer if you want him to.

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Speaker 3: You know, he will be what you want him to be.

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Speaker 3: He has the ability to do that. And I think

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Speaker 3: all of them are real in that they are the

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Speaker 3: way he gets along in life. All of them are,

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Speaker 3: but he but he's definitely an impression manager for sure, interacting.

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Speaker 4: I had a question when you mentioned him sort of

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Speaker 4: trolling even in whatever facet of his life he was

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Speaker 4: in for victims. Was there anything in particular that Dennis

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Speaker 4: Radar looked for in general or yes, I.

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Speaker 3: Mean it changed over the course of his period, as

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Speaker 3: initially he didn't expect that they were in before people

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Speaker 3: in the Otara house, for example, he thought there would

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Speaker 3: there would be a mother and the two kids, and

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Speaker 3: he dispatched the little boy quickly, and then he was

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Speaker 3: going to kidnap the mother and daughter because he had

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Speaker 3: a mother daughter fantasy. He's going to take them to

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Speaker 3: an abandoned bar, and none of that worked out, and

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Speaker 3: he ended up killing four people Axley, So then the

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Speaker 3: next one he's going to be more careful about that.

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Speaker 3: And also they had a dog, so the next one

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Speaker 3: is going to be more careful with. So he does

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Speaker 3: have a kind of a type, which would be a

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Speaker 3: petit woman that he feels that he can dominate more

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Speaker 3: Taro Julio Taro is dark haired the next one, so

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Speaker 3: there were some variations. But he wanted them to eat.

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Speaker 3: Why was he attracted to that note, It was because

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Speaker 3: he felt he could dominate them and that's very typical

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Speaker 3: of serial killers. Look, they don't want someone who's going

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Speaker 3: to resist them and fight them off and run away

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Speaker 3: and tell the police. They want someone they feel, you know,

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Speaker 3: pretty quickly bring under their control, which is, you know,

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Speaker 3: what it's all about for them.

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Speaker 4: I will not rest until I hear more about phenomenology.

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Speaker 4: Just what is that and also how has that impacted

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Speaker 4: all of your research and work well.

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Speaker 3: Phenomenology is a European philosophy. It goes with existentialism, which

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Speaker 3: is something I taught when I taught at Rutgers University.

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Speaker 2: I was a.

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Speaker 3: Philosophy professor first, and I was attracted to because it's

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Speaker 3: a full person philosophy. It allows individuals to be who

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Speaker 3: they are. So phenomenology in a nutshell is back to

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Speaker 3: the things themselves. You strip away theory and expectations and

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Speaker 3: try to just see what a phenomenon is and let

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Speaker 3: it present itself to you before you start theorizing about it.

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Speaker 3: So it's really a philosophy of looking at the world

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Speaker 3: and accepting it for what it is. And so if

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Speaker 3: you're a therapist, you're going to be letting people be

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Speaker 3: who they are with that stead of approaching them with

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Speaker 3: a theory already intact. So it was just it was

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Speaker 3: attractive to me. I was a therapist for a little while.

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Speaker 3: I didn't really like being a therapist, but that was

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Speaker 3: the philosophy that I used when I was.

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Speaker 6: Interesting.

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Speaker 5: It's almost like expectation management, something I need to get about.

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Speaker 3: It's hard to do, too, because you have to bracket

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Speaker 3: your expectations, and that's there's a certain practic. I mean,

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Speaker 3: we had a master's program in it. We spent every

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Speaker 3: day learning to do this and to understand how we

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Speaker 3: look at the world through particular lenses, and those lenses

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Speaker 3: can you know, make things look different than they actually are.

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Speaker 3: So it's a skill, it's a practice, and of course

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Speaker 3: it has affected much of what I do, certainly letting

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Speaker 3: a serial killer present himself to me in the way

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Speaker 3: he wants to before I start thinking about theories and

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Speaker 3: formulas and whatnot, so it really has affected how I

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Speaker 3: think about them, how I deal with them, ask questions,

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Speaker 3: and then later write about them.

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Speaker 5: Very interesting. This is true Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. Whe

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Speaker 5: We're talking true crime all the time. We are lucky

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Speaker 5: enough to be joined by doctor Kathlyn Ramsland, and we're

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Speaker 5: right in the middle of talking about BTK. If you

434
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:26,679
Speaker 5: want to give us a talkback, just download the iHeartRadio

435
00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:28,480
Speaker 5: app and hit the little microphone and boom, you're on

436
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:28,840
Speaker 5: the show.

437
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:31,360
Speaker 6: Doctor Catherine Ramsland, I would like to.

438
00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:33,960
Speaker 5: Ask you about education, since we were talking about that

439
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:40,680
Speaker 5: and BTK. For those who aren't familiar, His first victims

440
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:44,560
Speaker 5: happened in January nineteen seventy four, and then in nineteen

441
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:48,640
Speaker 5: seventy nine. He attended Wichita State University and he graduated

442
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:55,159
Speaker 5: with a Bachelor of Science degree in administration. Do you

443
00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:59,560
Speaker 5: think or does the think that Dennis Raider may have

444
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:03,439
Speaker 5: pursued disagree to understand justice or inoculate himself from it,

445
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 5: or do you think it has anything to do with any.

446
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:08,560
Speaker 3: I think it was actually earlier than seventy nine.

447
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:11,320
Speaker 6: I thought he graduated in seventy nine.

448
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:15,280
Speaker 3: No, he was interested. He wanted to be a police officer.

449
00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:18,879
Speaker 3: He was interested in law enforcement. He was rejected. I

450
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:22,199
Speaker 3: think at least twice, if not three times. He was rejected,

451
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:28,320
Speaker 3: but he wanted to be so he pursued degrees that

452
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:31,560
Speaker 3: would potentially would get him there. And he did have

453
00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:34,919
Speaker 3: one experience where he was in a classroom where a

454
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:40,080
Speaker 3: pathologist was teaching them about one of the victims, one

455
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:43,399
Speaker 3: of his victims, and it was an interesting experience for

456
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:47,960
Speaker 3: him to be talked about, knowing that he's the guy

457
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:51,919
Speaker 3: that did the murder. But I think it was it

458
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 3: wasn't so much to learn how to get away with chrimes,

459
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:58,720
Speaker 3: but certainly that that's a byproduct. The more you know

460
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,959
Speaker 3: the the more you're going to be thinking about what

461
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:04,400
Speaker 3: do I need to do. But I think he really

462
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:06,280
Speaker 3: just wanted to be in law enforcement because that was

463
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:09,000
Speaker 3: his personality. It was very much black and white, law

464
00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:12,000
Speaker 3: and order, good and evil. He thinks of himself as

465
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:14,200
Speaker 3: a good person who did some bad things.

466
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:17,399
Speaker 2: I guess that's the case with most people who do

467
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:19,280
Speaker 2: bad things, even right a lot.

468
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:23,159
Speaker 3: I've heard a number of Sterrey killers describe themselves that way.

469
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:26,680
Speaker 3: They're much more they've spent much more time being good

470
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:30,719
Speaker 3: people than bad people, so that outweighs what they've done

471
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:31,520
Speaker 3: in their mind.

472
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:33,760
Speaker 6: I guess that's true. I mean, in a sense they

473
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:34,880
Speaker 6: do spend true.

474
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:40,240
Speaker 3: It equalizes all the actions, all their behavior. Their behavior

475
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:43,159
Speaker 3: is not equal. What they have done to murder and

476
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:49,120
Speaker 3: torture other people outweighs shoveling the walk for your neighbor

477
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:50,960
Speaker 3: during a snowstorm quite far.

478
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:53,440
Speaker 5: But they're looking at it's black and white, like I've

479
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,320
Speaker 5: spent twenty eight years of my life being a good,

480
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:59,359
Speaker 5: good person and one day being a bad person.

481
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:05,840
Speaker 3: So therefore they Yeah, because they dehumanized their victims rights. Yeah.

482
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:08,560
Speaker 2: Interesting. Did BTK?

483
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:11,760
Speaker 4: Did he come up with his own name, with his

484
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:12,760
Speaker 4: own quote nickname?

485
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:13,520
Speaker 2: Is that correct?

486
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 3: Yeah? Very quickly, because he wanted to be sure not

487
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:20,159
Speaker 3: to leave anything to chance. He wanted to have it.

488
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 3: You didn't want a stupid name. He wanted a name

489
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:26,440
Speaker 3: that would terrify which to right.

490
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:30,199
Speaker 4: And I bring it up because you know earlier you

491
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:33,000
Speaker 4: had touched upon the fact that in your experience he

492
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:37,119
Speaker 4: actually wasn't that torturous in the scope of things. Do

493
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 4: you think he was trying to build himself up or

494
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:41,320
Speaker 4: just have the catchiest name?

495
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 3: Was that his Well, for him, the torture was psychological

496
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:51,200
Speaker 3: more than it was. It wasn't physical. And he did

497
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:57,840
Speaker 3: propose other names like the poet Strangler, so not a

498
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:01,720
Speaker 3: very scary one. But I think he had four or

499
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 3: five ideas before he settled on BTK. But it was

500
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:08,760
Speaker 3: really to get that sense of dominance. I mean, he

501
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:12,400
Speaker 3: had studied the serial killers. Again that was something that

502
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 3: was an outlier. And he had also watched the press.

503
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:21,640
Speaker 3: He watched how media was treating them like Ted Bundy

504
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 3: during the seventies, and so he wanted to be sure

505
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 3: that he had a handle that was going to be memorable.

506
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 6: Certainly was certainly was.

507
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:36,280
Speaker 5: And he would write the media and the police departments, right,

508
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:38,800
Speaker 5: he would communicate with both law enforcement and media and

509
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:39,440
Speaker 5: write letters.

510
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 3: Not at the same time. He kind of alternated, and

511
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:44,960
Speaker 3: it was much more towards the media because he had

512
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 3: a crush on one of the news anchors. Oh, he

513
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:51,480
Speaker 3: had kketb And he also really liked the Witchda Eagle.

514
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:53,920
Speaker 3: That was the paper he liked to read. So he

515
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:56,400
Speaker 3: kind of did both depending on what he wanted to

516
00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 3: do or what message he was sending, but more of

517
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:02,440
Speaker 3: his stuff was really aimed toward the media.

518
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 2: Just to kind of divert from the specific crimes altogether.

519
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:10,720
Speaker 2: I'm just curious, as as a professor, as a scholar,

520
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 2: as a woman, what is your tool and how do

521
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 2: you cope and all these dark corners, you know, we

522
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 2: do it every night. I find that we talk about

523
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:23,960
Speaker 2: pretty dark stuff so regularly and we all have kind

524
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:27,200
Speaker 2: of our tools, but I feel like you, I feel like.

525
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 6: You really have the tools.

526
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 2: What can you teach us.

527
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:33,560
Speaker 3: Now, I'm curious about your tools, but.

528
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:36,480
Speaker 2: A fair question, by the way, fair question.

529
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:40,840
Speaker 3: For the past three years, I've worked on a horse

530
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:44,760
Speaker 3: farm volunteer work. I do a lot of the ride

531
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 3: around a tractor, I take care of the horses, I

532
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 3: get eggs in from the chickens, et cetera. And that

533
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 3: all came about because I went to visit a horse

534
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:57,960
Speaker 3: farm and the owner broke her foot and she needed

535
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:02,240
Speaker 3: someone to rehab a horse and she could obviously do it.

536
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:06,320
Speaker 3: And his name was Sonny, and so I agreed to

537
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:09,080
Speaker 3: take him on as a project because he needed to

538
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:12,800
Speaker 3: be able to walk or else. And so I just

539
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:14,880
Speaker 3: kept walking him, and then soon I was riding him,

540
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 3: and now I ride him. In fact, I wrote him today.

541
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 3: I write him four times a week, and he's my

542
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 3: best buddy. And now he has two books.

543
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:26,760
Speaker 2: And he's an author as well. I'm a recent transplant

544
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:30,000
Speaker 2: to Nashville, so getting around horses is something it's sort

545
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:32,440
Speaker 2: of like new to my world, and it is a

546
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 2: real therapy, grounding tool with all things.

547
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 6: Yeah, we had a right.

548
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:41,560
Speaker 3: Well, and the thing about horses is you have to

549
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 3: be very present. You can't be wandering great daydreaming, not

550
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 3: paying attention to be very present, because anything could change

551
00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:52,800
Speaker 3: in a heartbeat. I've been trampled by a horse. I

552
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:54,959
Speaker 3: can tell you it can be and can be fast.

553
00:31:56,200 --> 00:32:01,560
Speaker 3: But with this experience of just it helps me get

554
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 3: away from everything. I'll write maybe four or five hours,

555
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:06,960
Speaker 3: and I'll go out to the farm and you know,

556
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 3: have shovel stalls. I'll do whatever it needs to be

557
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:12,320
Speaker 3: done at the farm. It just helps me get all

558
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:15,000
Speaker 3: of this stuff out of my head, pay attention to

559
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 3: the horses, and and then I can come back fresh.

560
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:22,920
Speaker 5: You mentioned that Sonny had two books. What can you

561
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:23,960
Speaker 5: tell us the titles of the book.

562
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 3: But the first one is just called Sonny Says, and

563
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 3: it's about his philosophical ancestors like son Crates and Sonstotle

564
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 3: and so and so. We were just having fun at

565
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:42,680
Speaker 3: the farm. I took pictures of all the different animals

566
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 3: and made it into a book because I wanted to

567
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 3: learn to self published. And then we decided to put

568
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:52,240
Speaker 3: Sonny in an adventure, so he became the Palomino p I.

569
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:58,880
Speaker 3: It's a book called Sherlock Horse. It just for fun

570
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 3: and it had has been fun.

571
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 6: Oh that's good. So you learned how to self published

572
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:03,800
Speaker 6: through I.

573
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 3: Learned how to self published. I would I would say,

574
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:09,640
Speaker 3: don't do it. Don't put pictures. If you're gonna learn

575
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 3: how to do this, don't don't have your first book

576
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 3: with pictures, because that was really hard, I'm sure, but

577
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 3: but it turned out to be fun and now it's

578
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 3: just sort of a diversion.

579
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:21,160
Speaker 2: That's amazing though.

580
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 4: And yeah, as Buddy mentioned, we just had an equine

581
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:27,920
Speaker 4: therapist on who did talk so much about the need

582
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 4: to be present around horses, and so yeah, second person,

583
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:33,240
Speaker 4: we shall all take a hint and meet a horse.

584
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the connectivity I think also that is just

585
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 2: sort of there's reciprocity in that connectivity. So how grounding

586
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 2: that must be.

587
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:45,240
Speaker 3: And it takes time. It's it's you have to have

588
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 3: a lot of patience, and you know they don't necessarily

589
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 3: choose you just because you've chosen them. So I spent

590
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:56,960
Speaker 3: a lot of time just working on him until until

591
00:33:57,000 --> 00:33:59,640
Speaker 3: he finally is like now now he waits for me

592
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:02,080
Speaker 3: at the game in two years.

593
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:05,640
Speaker 2: I would imagine even in your work, even with the

594
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:08,320
Speaker 2: cases that we've just been discussing too. It's a slow,

595
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,880
Speaker 2: long game. You're developing a relationship with somebody who's you know,

596
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:15,920
Speaker 2: even in BTK and Dennis Raider like they they you know,

597
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:17,200
Speaker 2: they have it all figured out.

598
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:20,520
Speaker 3: Until it's slow and steady, and all the serial killers

599
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:22,120
Speaker 3: always ask about Sonny.

600
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 2: Is that right? Why do you think that's the case.

601
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:26,840
Speaker 2: It's so interesting to me.

602
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:30,839
Speaker 3: I just think they it's a side of me they

603
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 3: don't get to see, and it's something that I love

604
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:38,239
Speaker 3: talking about. So I think when when they talk with

605
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:40,200
Speaker 3: me and the phone or something, they want to know

606
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:43,840
Speaker 3: you know that that part has a farm. Snow, there's

607
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:44,680
Speaker 3: what's going on?

608
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:48,160
Speaker 2: Gee? Can I ask this one very again basic question?

609
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:51,160
Speaker 2: But I'm just I'd be remiss not to when you

610
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,480
Speaker 2: are in the presence in somebody who has taken lives

611
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 2: or one life or many lives in the cases that

612
00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 2: you have in fact worked on. Even just hearing that

613
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:03,719
Speaker 2: there's so many worse than BTK that you've studied, of

614
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:05,760
Speaker 2: course I want to talk to you a thousand hours

615
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:08,960
Speaker 2: about those as well. Do you get scared?

616
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:12,759
Speaker 3: I do not get scared, and I do think there's

617
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:15,960
Speaker 3: something about me because I hitchicked across the country when

618
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 3: I was eighteen and rode a motorcycle across when I

619
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:22,319
Speaker 3: was nineteen, So I think there's something about me that's

620
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:27,520
Speaker 3: probably abnormal fearless. I don't know if I fear less,

621
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 3: but I think my fear is probably much more tolerant

622
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:38,719
Speaker 3: of things and more ready to go into things that

623
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:41,520
Speaker 3: maybe other people are afraid of. So I'm not afraid

624
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:44,319
Speaker 3: of working with these guys.

625
00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:48,640
Speaker 2: I must send that in you as well, which probably

626
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:52,160
Speaker 2: brings a real level of comfort or authenticity that maybe

627
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:53,279
Speaker 2: isn't seen elsewhere.

628
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:56,480
Speaker 3: Well, I think the most important thing with them is

629
00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:01,200
Speaker 3: a data on judgment. Sure that all of them will

630
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 3: say that. I think that's that's that phenomenology thing. You

631
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:08,720
Speaker 3: have to be able to bracket your judgments when someone's

632
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 3: telling you horrible things that they've done. I think that's

633
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:15,440
Speaker 3: the most important thing if you want to be able

634
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:19,600
Speaker 3: to establish a rapport where they are going to feel

635
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:20,799
Speaker 3: comfortable talking with you.

636
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:26,320
Speaker 5: I wanted to switch subjects real quick and talk about

637
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:31,839
Speaker 5: maybe some modern trends in modern offenders, and you know,

638
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,600
Speaker 5: we're you know, the rise of the internet means something

639
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 5: I'm very big into and something I'm fairly well known

640
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:42,920
Speaker 5: for and and whatnot, And I think modern offenders in

641
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:46,920
Speaker 5: today's age might be a little bit more driven by

642
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:49,480
Speaker 5: different things than they were in the past, and I wanted.

643
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:49,960
Speaker 6: To talk to you about that.

644
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:54,239
Speaker 5: I thought was Okay, what emerging patterns, if any, What

645
00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:58,000
Speaker 5: emerging patterns in modern offenders concern you the most?

646
00:36:58,080 --> 00:36:58,479
Speaker 6: If any?

647
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:03,280
Speaker 5: Some that come the mind are like in cell driven.

648
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:06,880
Speaker 5: There's now a lot of rage baits on the internet

649
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:11,600
Speaker 5: for political reasons. Are there is there one like stream

650
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:15,200
Speaker 5: in modern offending that concerns you the most?

651
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think. I think anger and humiliation don't get

652
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 3: enough attention in terms of as as motivators, and in

653
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:31,160
Speaker 3: cell is obviously very anger driven. H I think we

654
00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:34,440
Speaker 3: need to know more about that because because so many

655
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:39,200
Speaker 3: of our social media influencers know that anger is a

656
00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:43,600
Speaker 3: great manipulator. If you get people angry enough that you

657
00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:46,520
Speaker 3: know you can you can twist that emotion and get

658
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:49,200
Speaker 3: them to do things that maybe they would never think

659
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:51,680
Speaker 3: to do on their own. So so yeah, I think

660
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:55,799
Speaker 3: there's whole movements that we should be alarmed about. But

661
00:37:55,920 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 3: I think if you're talking about lone killers individual serial killers,

662
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:02,440
Speaker 3: we're still seeing a lot of the same things that

663
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:05,000
Speaker 3: we used to see. But maybe they're getting more sophisticated

664
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:09,960
Speaker 3: because it's a lot easier to watch a show than

665
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:13,359
Speaker 3: it is to read a medical textbook, for example. They're

666
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:16,359
Speaker 3: getting more sophisticated about the kinds of things they need

667
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:19,200
Speaker 3: to watch out for and the kinds of things that

668
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:24,680
Speaker 3: cops are using. They're aware there's more CCTV cameras everywhere now,

669
00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:31,719
Speaker 3: more aware of the IgG, the genetic genealogy investigations. So

670
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:35,040
Speaker 3: I think they're being more careful, but they're still driven

671
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 3: by fantasy. They're still driven, but there's a lot of

672
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:39,719
Speaker 3: anger threaded in that fantasy.

673
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:44,960
Speaker 4: And I have a question in the same sort of lane.

674
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:48,439
Speaker 4: In speaking, we've all been doing a bunch of work

675
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:51,160
Speaker 4: on the topic of in cells, and in speaking with

676
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:56,799
Speaker 4: sort of some prosecutors, something that they pointed out was

677
00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 4: a a quicker as escalation time, whereas in the past,

678
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:07,359
Speaker 4: like people instead of simmering for you know, days, weeks, years,

679
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:11,640
Speaker 4: it's it's just very quickly that people seem to escalate

680
00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:12,680
Speaker 4: to violence.

681
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:14,759
Speaker 2: And then also.

682
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:18,320
Speaker 4: That a lot of the sort of the lone wolf,

683
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:20,760
Speaker 4: they don't seem to care if they're caught in fact,

684
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:24,240
Speaker 4: they want to go down in a blaze of glory.

685
00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:27,160
Speaker 2: And I don't know if that's because they.

686
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:29,960
Speaker 3: If they're mission driven, as some of the in cells

687
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:34,239
Speaker 3: have been. Yeah, they you're right. They want to be

688
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:37,200
Speaker 3: out there because they think they're going to inspire a

689
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:41,280
Speaker 3: lot more of the same. Turns out they're wrong because

690
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:45,520
Speaker 3: they don't do that. They think they're going to be

691
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:49,480
Speaker 3: part of some big revolution and it's mission driven. So

692
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:52,239
Speaker 3: that's why they don't care if they're caught, because they

693
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:54,240
Speaker 3: think it's all part of the package.

694
00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:58,600
Speaker 2: Which is so interesting even for law enforcement because even

695
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:00,960
Speaker 2: speaking of in cells, it's also so hard to monitor

696
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:03,920
Speaker 2: a lone wolf online, right, so we're not even seeing

697
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:07,640
Speaker 2: big groupings or clusters or protesters or sort of behaviors

698
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:09,719
Speaker 2: that can be tracked. You know, it becomes a little

699
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:11,600
Speaker 2: bit more innocuous. Yeah.

700
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:13,400
Speaker 3: I mean, it's one thing to sit around in a

701
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:16,000
Speaker 3: chat room and grouse about this and that, and it's

702
00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:19,160
Speaker 3: another thing to get yourself prepared to go do you know,

703
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:22,440
Speaker 3: go on some school campus or movie theater instead of

704
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:23,200
Speaker 3: shooting people.

705
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:26,640
Speaker 5: Exactly right, But if you're the kind of person that

706
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:29,520
Speaker 5: we're talking about, like maybe that gets amped up quickly

707
00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:33,759
Speaker 5: or has all this anger built up. Those people contributing

708
00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:36,480
Speaker 5: in those chat rooms are just kind of like amping

709
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:37,680
Speaker 5: that person up right.

710
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:44,080
Speaker 3: It almostication, giving them afication, right, And this really does

711
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:47,640
Speaker 3: go back into their childhoods quite often. Again, I go

712
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:52,879
Speaker 3: back to humiliation being understudied because they have felt humiliated

713
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:56,239
Speaker 3: and now they have a frame for it, and they

714
00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:59,360
Speaker 3: have other people saying, oh, yeah, I know exactly. That

715
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:01,319
Speaker 3: feels like an here's what you should do about it.

716
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:05,279
Speaker 3: And some of them are vulnerable enough to think that

717
00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:09,080
Speaker 3: they should do something and feel absolutely justified in doing it.

718
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:14,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, so's it's so scary. But again, I think the

719
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:16,400
Speaker 2: more we talk about or learn about it, it really

720
00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:19,759
Speaker 2: does sort of I don't want to I don't know

721
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:23,040
Speaker 2: what the word is to use exactly. It's not compartmentalized,

722
00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:26,880
Speaker 2: but it's sort of I like your analogy of just

723
00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:29,759
Speaker 2: being able to let the phenomenon take place, or you know,

724
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:32,319
Speaker 2: like a wave, you can't really predict any of it.

725
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:34,440
Speaker 2: You have to kind of go with that flow and

726
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:36,399
Speaker 2: accept things for how they are.

727
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:39,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, if you were to look at the

728
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:43,680
Speaker 3: interrogation of Manassian, for example, Alec Nassian in Canada, who

729
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:49,960
Speaker 3: is following Elliott Roger, you know, Saint Elliott Roger, supreme gentleman.

730
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:54,439
Speaker 3: And so he takes this vehicle and rams it into

731
00:41:54,440 --> 00:42:02,080
Speaker 3: people and thinking he's justified, and watching his interrogation, how

732
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:05,319
Speaker 3: confused you is that people don't understand why this is

733
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:08,960
Speaker 3: the right thing to have done, and that he's sure

734
00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:12,040
Speaker 3: it's going to be followed with other people doing it

735
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:14,680
Speaker 3: all over the place. So you can just see that

736
00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:18,920
Speaker 3: this is a vulnerable mind who got filled with you know,

737
00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:21,880
Speaker 3: what other people thought he should do, and then he

738
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:24,799
Speaker 3: took it and did something with it, and now he's

739
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:28,800
Speaker 3: going to spend his life in prison wondering what happened.

740
00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:30,839
Speaker 2: What went wrong? I mean, you know I would even

741
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:32,760
Speaker 2: go so far. I know this is a single killing,

742
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 2: allegedly allegedly alleged, even with Luigi Manngion, for example, you

743
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:39,719
Speaker 2: know that was purpose based, right, if in fact what

744
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:43,799
Speaker 2: accused of and if that manifesto was meaningful, Like, what

745
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:46,680
Speaker 2: impact does the purpose actually have when all is said

746
00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:48,640
Speaker 2: and done, And what a strange feeling that must be

747
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:52,239
Speaker 2: today as you're really facing the music. Is there any

748
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:55,720
Speaker 2: advice or anything just as a human being in the world.

749
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:58,480
Speaker 2: You know, you mentioned philosophy and your study of and

750
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:03,719
Speaker 2: obviously forensics and criminology. Is there any advice you have

751
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:08,080
Speaker 2: for us just to kind of navigate the world in

752
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:13,920
Speaker 2: the best way and safest way possible question, Doctor Catherine.

753
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:17,920
Speaker 3: I'm not the right person. I rode a motorcycle crossic

754
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:19,720
Speaker 3: country without knowing how to ride.

755
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:22,239
Speaker 2: No, it's okay. I just out of an airplane or two,

756
00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:25,160
Speaker 2: and I found myself in some sticky situations. So that

757
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:27,920
Speaker 2: is a very human experience. That just shows that you

758
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:28,520
Speaker 2: play all in.

759
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:34,160
Speaker 3: I think you watch your back, you careful of who

760
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 3: you allow to approach you, who you open your door to,

761
00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:45,040
Speaker 3: who I don't know. It's hard to generalize it is.

762
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:47,799
Speaker 3: I have to see what your specific situation is like

763
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:49,920
Speaker 3: if I entered your home, I'd be able to say

764
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:51,719
Speaker 3: you should do this or that.

765
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:55,720
Speaker 2: But it's too hard to gig very safe us assured.

766
00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:57,960
Speaker 2: But you know, just as we navigate.

767
00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:00,399
Speaker 3: Or even just the problem is if people are good

768
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:03,880
Speaker 3: at seeming normal, you're not going to spot right our issues.

769
00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:06,120
Speaker 3: You're not going to spot what they're thinking. And if

770
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:09,440
Speaker 3: they target you, they're going to be very careful to

771
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:12,680
Speaker 3: make sure you don't suspect until too late.

772
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:15,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so fair.

773
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:17,520
Speaker 6: It's so so fair, it's so scary.

774
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:20,719
Speaker 5: Doctor Katherine Ramslin, thank you so much for spending this

775
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:24,040
Speaker 5: hour with us. Your insight is incredible and invaluable, and

776
00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:25,759
Speaker 5: I know that I'm going to take it to heart

777
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:29,240
Speaker 5: moving forward for listeners who want more. Her newest book,

778
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:32,719
Speaker 5: You Can't Hide, is out now and it's a fascinating

779
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:36,200
Speaker 5: look at the psychology behind defenders. We're so grateful you

780
00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:38,799
Speaker 5: have joined us tonight. Thank you so so much from

781
00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:42,120
Speaker 5: all of us. We admire you, thank you, definitely marry.

782
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:43,880
Speaker 6: You, and we referenced your work quite often.

783
00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:45,160
Speaker 2: Thank you.

784
00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:48,800
Speaker 5: Coming up, forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan breaks down the

785
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:52,160
Speaker 5: latest in the Luigi case and what investigators are uncovering

786
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:54,480
Speaker 5: in the David investigation into the death of the fourteen

787
00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:56,360
Speaker 5: year old celest three us Fernandez.

788
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:11,320
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

789
00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:14,880
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with

790
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:19,080
Speaker 2: Courtney Armstrong. We have Taha in the control room and

791
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:23,400
Speaker 2: Joseph Scott Morgan, our very favorite forensics expert, also the

792
00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:26,400
Speaker 2: host of the hit podcast body Bags, is here to

793
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:28,880
Speaker 2: break down some of the cases that we've been covering

794
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:32,880
Speaker 2: throughout the week from a forensic standpoint, Joseph, there has

795
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:35,360
Speaker 2: been so many times in the last five days that

796
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:38,319
Speaker 2: we've said, why didn't we ask Joseph that? Why did

797
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:41,080
Speaker 2: we ask Joseph that? So we've kind of been stacking

798
00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:44,160
Speaker 2: in a few different categories. Obviously, one of the cases

799
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:46,680
Speaker 2: that we've been following so closely has been this Brian

800
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:50,560
Speaker 2: Walsh case. He's the accused wife killer who is now

801
00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:55,840
Speaker 2: standing trial of his wife Anna. Very wild week in court,

802
00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 2: but at its core, it seems as though he's basically saying, look,

803
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:05,400
Speaker 2: she died of something unexpected, an unexpected death, and I

804
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:07,719
Speaker 2: knew she was dead because she tipped over when I

805
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:10,920
Speaker 2: touched her and rolled off the bed trigger alert. This

806
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:14,600
Speaker 2: is a little heroin. And then I panicked, and I

807
00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:19,040
Speaker 2: didn't want my children to have to face the reality

808
00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:22,319
Speaker 2: that their mother was gone. So he took it upon himself,

809
00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:26,839
Speaker 2: which he's now admitted to, to dismember her body and

810
00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:30,399
Speaker 2: take versions of those body parts and place them all

811
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:34,319
Speaker 2: around his area, including in a dumpster allegedly close to

812
00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:37,000
Speaker 2: his mother's house. That's all I got. Cork can give

813
00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:39,279
Speaker 2: us a little bit more on the case specifics, but

814
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:43,120
Speaker 2: what the we have to talk about this, Joseph.

815
00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:46,920
Speaker 4: We do have so many questions and just to get

816
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:48,920
Speaker 4: a lay of the land. So the murder trial of

817
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:53,840
Speaker 4: accused Massachusetts's wife killer Brian Walsh has continued this entire

818
00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:58,200
Speaker 4: past week. Jurors now have seen gruesome forensic evidence. It's

819
00:46:58,239 --> 00:47:01,440
Speaker 4: been pulled from a trash facilla as well as the

820
00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:06,000
Speaker 4: family volvo. This includes, I mean, it is quite a list.

821
00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:11,440
Speaker 4: It includes a blood stained clothing, a tievek suit, tools,

822
00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:14,440
Speaker 4: pieces of a rug and all of this while a

823
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:18,200
Speaker 4: state please crime lab scientists walks them through how each

824
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:22,040
Speaker 4: of those items were documented and what they might say

825
00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:26,640
Speaker 4: about the disappearance as well as the presumed killing of

826
00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:31,279
Speaker 4: Anna Walsh, who is of course accused murderer Brian Walsh's

827
00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:35,600
Speaker 4: now deceased wife. So alongside that, there's been digital forensic

828
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:40,600
Speaker 4: experts that have laid out Brian's extensive online searches about

829
00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:46,040
Speaker 4: body disposal, decomposition and cleaning DNA. But what do you

830
00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:50,560
Speaker 4: think should we start with the physical forensics such as

831
00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:55,520
Speaker 4: the what Joseph, what are the thoughts about the tiek suit,

832
00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:58,880
Speaker 4: the goggles, the cutting tools, bloody rug pieces.

833
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:03,920
Speaker 8: Thanks for having me tonight, guys with you. Oh, I

834
00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:06,759
Speaker 8: love you guys. Y'all are the best. You know what

835
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:10,400
Speaker 8: it says to me because so many of these memberment

836
00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:13,239
Speaker 8: cases that I cover, either on my podcast or on

837
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:19,719
Speaker 8: national news platforms, they're always so incredibly disorganized. This guy

838
00:48:19,719 --> 00:48:23,120
Speaker 8: had a plan, and I cannot tell you. I think

839
00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:25,759
Speaker 8: that probably out of all of the cases that I

840
00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:29,160
Speaker 8: have covered relative to dismemberment, this is the first one

841
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:31,880
Speaker 8: where a taiebek suit has been involved.

842
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:32,760
Speaker 2: Wow.

843
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:36,839
Speaker 8: Yeah, And you know that's something for those that don't know.

844
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:41,440
Speaker 8: You know, that's something in forensics that we wear and

845
00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:44,359
Speaker 8: we kind of a little aside. We refer to them

846
00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:47,359
Speaker 8: as bunny suits. And if you've never been in one,

847
00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:51,560
Speaker 8: they you lose about five pounds of waterway, you know,

848
00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:54,480
Speaker 8: when you're working in one of these things. So he's

849
00:48:54,520 --> 00:48:57,799
Speaker 8: gotten his hands on one of these things as preparation

850
00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:02,879
Speaker 8: because he understands something very from an elemental level about forensics.

851
00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:06,799
Speaker 8: You begin to think about transfer, transfer of any kind

852
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:11,320
Speaker 8: of biological evidence, you know, like on either his clothing

853
00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:14,920
Speaker 8: that he has or on his person, you know, just

854
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:18,920
Speaker 8: the bare skin. He was thinking about that also goggles.

855
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:23,000
Speaker 8: I find that interesting because goggles most of the time

856
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:26,960
Speaker 8: when we work in the lab. I know, just in

857
00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:31,319
Speaker 8: my morgue that I have at my university, I and

858
00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:34,440
Speaker 8: my kids where eye protection do you know why? Because

859
00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:38,200
Speaker 8: there's a splash factor involved. Anything can transfer into your eyes.

860
00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:42,239
Speaker 8: Had he thought that far ahead? You know? And so

861
00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:46,440
Speaker 8: that brings us to whatever tools that they may have recovered,

862
00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:49,360
Speaker 8: the utility of those tools, how was he going to

863
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:52,560
Speaker 8: be used in them? Because he's he's obviously thinking about

864
00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:55,799
Speaker 8: this transferring onto his person, not just his clothing, but

865
00:49:55,880 --> 00:50:00,520
Speaker 8: back into his face. That's amazing to me because when

866
00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:05,080
Speaker 8: you begin to think about premeditative events, this is a hallmark.

867
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:07,799
Speaker 8: You know, this is a hallmark here is.

868
00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:10,600
Speaker 2: It possible at this point once a body is dismembered

869
00:50:10,719 --> 00:50:13,680
Speaker 2: as he's claiming he did. This is Brian Welsh the husband,

870
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:16,600
Speaker 2: because there's a couple of exacerbating factors here when there's

871
00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:19,840
Speaker 2: nobody right so you know, to this moment on his

872
00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:23,200
Speaker 2: body has not been found. He's admitting that he dismembered

873
00:50:23,239 --> 00:50:26,279
Speaker 2: it out of panic. He did not kill her, in

874
00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:31,440
Speaker 2: his opinion, but rather disposed of her. There's no universe

875
00:50:31,520 --> 00:50:34,520
Speaker 2: now if in fact, Anna, may she rest in peace,

876
00:50:34,640 --> 00:50:38,640
Speaker 2: has in fact been dismembered we're never getting the body right,

877
00:50:38,719 --> 00:50:42,600
Speaker 2: so this becomes some kind of a version of do

878
00:50:42,719 --> 00:50:46,239
Speaker 2: people believe him or not? You know, if it's hard

879
00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:48,560
Speaker 2: to get convictions without a body, we thought it was

880
00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:53,279
Speaker 2: incredible that somebody would have the nerve to say I

881
00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:57,160
Speaker 2: had nothing to do with her murder, yet I dismembered

882
00:50:57,160 --> 00:51:00,319
Speaker 2: her body. And then yet even this week, we've heard

883
00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:03,960
Speaker 2: audio tapes of him leading messages for the person that

884
00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:07,839
Speaker 2: she was allegedly seeing, and how calm and cool he

885
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:10,960
Speaker 2: was in the days thereafter. After an event like this,

886
00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:14,920
Speaker 2: it's impossible to believe. But without a body, is it

887
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:18,240
Speaker 2: possible that he might only get a couple of years?

888
00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:21,240
Speaker 2: Because the parts are so just different.

889
00:51:21,239 --> 00:51:24,080
Speaker 8: It's very, very difficult. There's a Latin term that I

890
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:27,960
Speaker 8: love that the courts use is corpus delecti. Many people

891
00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:31,080
Speaker 8: have heard that term, and it means body of the crime.

892
00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:34,719
Speaker 8: Sometimes I will use it in conversation relative to human remains,

893
00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:38,760
Speaker 8: because absent the corpus delecti, the body and the body

894
00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:41,440
Speaker 8: is the evidence here, right. I'm not trying to be

895
00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:44,080
Speaker 8: disrespectful by saying that, but it is the core element

896
00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:49,560
Speaker 8: of this case, because they're in live essential elements. First, off,

897
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:52,120
Speaker 8: we have to think about the cod the cause of death.

898
00:51:52,719 --> 00:51:57,160
Speaker 8: You know, how exactly did she die? One fascinating aspect

899
00:51:57,200 --> 00:52:02,279
Speaker 8: of this and I found this when defense opened. They

900
00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:05,960
Speaker 8: actually implied, they implied at least that she had died

901
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:09,040
Speaker 8: as a result of something that's referred to in some

902
00:52:09,120 --> 00:52:14,120
Speaker 8: circles as sudden adult death syndrome or and you've heard

903
00:52:14,120 --> 00:52:17,839
Speaker 8: of SIDS. So what they're implying is this healthy. She

904
00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:21,600
Speaker 8: appears to be the picture of health, just suddenly drops

905
00:52:21,640 --> 00:52:25,200
Speaker 8: over graveyard debt and he happens to be there, and

906
00:52:25,239 --> 00:52:28,279
Speaker 8: he's trying to save his children, the horror of all

907
00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:32,680
Speaker 8: of this. So we cannot there's no way to prove

908
00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:36,000
Speaker 8: that because we can't examine the remains. You know, we'd

909
00:52:36,040 --> 00:52:37,960
Speaker 8: look at the brain, we'd look at the lungs, we'd

910
00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:40,880
Speaker 8: look at the heart, all of those sorts of little

911
00:52:40,920 --> 00:52:44,239
Speaker 8: things there that's gone. And the other part of this

912
00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:48,640
Speaker 8: is the evidence that's left behind that connects the tools

913
00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:55,239
Speaker 8: that he used on her body. Okay, so again this

914
00:52:55,360 --> 00:52:57,799
Speaker 8: is very graphic, and I'll try to be gentle with this,

915
00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:01,399
Speaker 8: But when you think about if folks at home will

916
00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:05,040
Speaker 8: think about taking a traditional carpenter saw and sawing a

917
00:53:05,080 --> 00:53:08,000
Speaker 8: piece of lumber many times, and I know a lot

918
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:10,719
Speaker 8: of people have experiences. Have you ever started sawing a

919
00:53:10,719 --> 00:53:12,360
Speaker 8: piece of wood and all of a sudden it jumps

920
00:53:12,360 --> 00:53:15,040
Speaker 8: out of the groove and you have to start over again.

921
00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:18,719
Speaker 8: Did you know that that happens in dismemberment? And so

922
00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:25,640
Speaker 8: every time that metallic body touches that surface, that firm surface,

923
00:53:26,719 --> 00:53:29,120
Speaker 8: it leaves a mark. It leads a mark that is

924
00:53:29,239 --> 00:53:34,040
Speaker 8: unique to a specific tool. So absent the body, we

925
00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:37,239
Speaker 8: had nothing to compare it to. All we have is

926
00:53:37,280 --> 00:53:39,840
Speaker 8: this memory of this woman. We have his statement where

927
00:53:39,880 --> 00:53:43,880
Speaker 8: he says that she was in fact dead, but scientifically,

928
00:53:43,920 --> 00:53:46,640
Speaker 8: how did she come to her end? And that's the

929
00:53:46,680 --> 00:53:50,160
Speaker 8: crux of this whole thing, you know, was she strangled?

930
00:53:50,600 --> 00:53:53,280
Speaker 8: Did she have a massive heart attack? Did a meteor

931
00:53:53,440 --> 00:53:55,439
Speaker 8: fall out of the sky and strike her in the head?

932
00:53:55,640 --> 00:54:00,560
Speaker 8: I don't know, But absent the corpus DELECTI be a

933
00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:04,240
Speaker 8: question that will remain unanswered unless you know, like manner

934
00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:06,600
Speaker 8: from Heaven, knowledge falls in the midst of us all

935
00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:06,799
Speaker 8: of a.

936
00:54:06,800 --> 00:54:11,680
Speaker 9: Sudden, Brian, he's claiming that she died of sudden unexplained death,

937
00:54:11,760 --> 00:54:15,640
Speaker 9: which I've never heard that term before. Are you familiar

938
00:54:15,680 --> 00:54:16,600
Speaker 9: with that, and then.

939
00:54:16,520 --> 00:54:17,640
Speaker 2: I think you've answered some of this.

940
00:54:17,719 --> 00:54:21,040
Speaker 9: But is there a world where something like that, like,

941
00:54:21,239 --> 00:54:23,040
Speaker 9: is there enough of a body part left where we

942
00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:25,640
Speaker 9: can figure out whether or not she did die.

943
00:54:25,480 --> 00:54:27,760
Speaker 6: Of this unusual debth?

944
00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:31,000
Speaker 2: No, that's not even a thing like Joseph, I have

945
00:54:31,080 --> 00:54:33,520
Speaker 2: to assume. I'm just going to jump in for one second.

946
00:54:33,640 --> 00:54:37,240
Speaker 2: There is no way that that is an actual term.

947
00:54:37,400 --> 00:54:40,680
Speaker 2: It's literally that's an equivalent of me saying, oh my goodness,

948
00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:43,759
Speaker 2: the person I love they just died of the I

949
00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:47,879
Speaker 2: don't know what disease that's commonly seen in this part

950
00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:48,440
Speaker 2: of the land.

951
00:54:48,760 --> 00:54:51,719
Speaker 8: No, let me pause you there. I used to work

952
00:54:51,719 --> 00:54:54,800
Speaker 8: with an old pathologist and he and there were cases

953
00:54:54,880 --> 00:54:58,239
Speaker 8: I worked with him, and he was one of these

954
00:54:58,280 --> 00:55:01,439
Speaker 8: kind of country old country docs, and he used to say,

955
00:55:01,520 --> 00:55:07,200
Speaker 8: God called, and there are these cases where there's some

956
00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:10,520
Speaker 8: kind of pathological process that takes place that you still

957
00:55:10,560 --> 00:55:14,160
Speaker 8: can't discover, you know, and you're left scratching your head

958
00:55:14,520 --> 00:55:17,719
Speaker 8: and oh, by the bye. You have to understand that

959
00:55:17,920 --> 00:55:21,279
Speaker 8: cardio respiratory arrest is not a cause of death. A

960
00:55:21,320 --> 00:55:24,200
Speaker 8: lot of people will sign death certificates that way. That's

961
00:55:24,239 --> 00:55:27,279
Speaker 8: not a cause of death. That's a mechanism. There's a

962
00:55:27,320 --> 00:55:31,440
Speaker 8: causal factor that underpins all this. But yes, there is

963
00:55:31,560 --> 00:55:35,000
Speaker 8: in fact a world where a sudden adult death syndrome

964
00:55:35,160 --> 00:55:38,799
Speaker 8: does happen and there's no explanation, just like precious little

965
00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:39,880
Speaker 8: babies that Dove SAIDs.

966
00:55:40,280 --> 00:55:41,879
Speaker 2: And by the way, we wouldn't be able to buy

967
00:55:41,960 --> 00:55:44,120
Speaker 2: the bye. You're my favorite when you say that, you're

968
00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:46,160
Speaker 2: the only person that I say by the bye with.

969
00:55:46,440 --> 00:55:49,399
Speaker 2: But by the bye, by the bye, it's unprovable, right,

970
00:55:49,440 --> 00:55:52,640
Speaker 2: so it just leaving doubt at the bare minimum. This

971
00:55:52,719 --> 00:55:56,280
Speaker 2: guy's you know, this guy's a fraud of an art dealer.

972
00:55:56,360 --> 00:55:59,120
Speaker 2: He certainly isn't a medical examiner or a physician to

973
00:55:59,120 --> 00:56:01,279
Speaker 2: be able to make that distinction. Why wouldn't he call

974
00:56:01,360 --> 00:56:01,960
Speaker 2: nine to one one?

975
00:56:03,920 --> 00:56:05,840
Speaker 8: You know, I got to tell you I'm a cynic,

976
00:56:06,200 --> 00:56:09,240
Speaker 8: as you guys know, I try to be a happy cynic. However,

977
00:56:09,640 --> 00:56:12,960
Speaker 8: I got to tell you somebody did some reading prior

978
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:18,160
Speaker 8: to preparing this opening statement. Okay, because now the cat's

979
00:56:18,160 --> 00:56:20,720
Speaker 8: out of the bag. You've unleashed this thing into the court.

980
00:56:20,760 --> 00:56:23,400
Speaker 8: It's in the record now. The people that are trying

981
00:56:23,400 --> 00:56:25,640
Speaker 8: the case have heard it. The people that are hearing

982
00:56:25,680 --> 00:56:28,920
Speaker 8: the case have heard it. So that little kernel is

983
00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:32,120
Speaker 8: planted in their brain. What's going to be very interesting

984
00:56:32,480 --> 00:56:35,759
Speaker 8: from a defense standpoint. Are they going to put up

985
00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:40,200
Speaker 8: a cardiopulmonary position that will come in or maybe their

986
00:56:40,200 --> 00:56:44,200
Speaker 8: own pathologists that we'll talk about sudden adult death syndrome,

987
00:56:44,239 --> 00:56:48,680
Speaker 8: for instance, Is it possible, doctor, that someone can suddenly die?

988
00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:52,680
Speaker 8: You see, now you've shifted, You've created that doubt, and

989
00:56:52,719 --> 00:56:56,719
Speaker 8: now you're just now he becomes a sympathetic character. He

990
00:56:56,880 --> 00:56:59,480
Speaker 8: didn't want to injure his kids. He didn't want to

991
00:56:59,520 --> 00:57:04,040
Speaker 8: scar the many further. So he dismembers, Mom, I don't know.

992
00:57:04,080 --> 00:57:07,560
Speaker 8: It's beyond the pail. As far as I'm concerned.

993
00:57:07,480 --> 00:57:08,399
Speaker 2: It's beyond the bail.

994
00:57:08,440 --> 00:57:11,600
Speaker 4: And this has been in my crawl all week long,

995
00:57:11,800 --> 00:57:13,799
Speaker 4: and now I'm so glad we got to speak with you.

996
00:57:13,920 --> 00:57:17,080
Speaker 4: We spoke to a legal expert earlier this week because

997
00:57:17,120 --> 00:57:20,600
Speaker 4: it seems so egregious. But listen, this is true crime tonight,

998
00:57:20,760 --> 00:57:22,640
Speaker 4: and we are lucky enough to be here with forensic

999
00:57:22,680 --> 00:57:27,080
Speaker 4: expert Joseph Scott Morgan. We're talking about Acquys, Massachusetts wife

1000
00:57:27,160 --> 00:57:31,600
Speaker 4: killer Brian Walsh. If you have any thoughts, particularly about

1001
00:57:31,640 --> 00:57:35,440
Speaker 4: the alleged sudden, unexplained death let us know, hit us

1002
00:57:35,480 --> 00:57:39,040
Speaker 4: up on the talkbacks on the iHeartRadio app. So, Joseph,

1003
00:57:39,640 --> 00:57:43,360
Speaker 4: we were talking earlier about not just the fact that

1004
00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:48,280
Speaker 4: Brian Walsh purchased goggles, he also went so far as

1005
00:57:48,320 --> 00:57:53,440
Speaker 4: to purchase booties so foot productive wear as well. And

1006
00:57:53,480 --> 00:57:56,120
Speaker 4: I just wanted to lay out so we have the information.

1007
00:57:56,600 --> 00:58:02,800
Speaker 4: The tools that he brought include a hammer, a hatchet,

1008
00:58:03,080 --> 00:58:07,600
Speaker 4: a hacksaw, shears, wire, snaps and hate.

1009
00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:09,800
Speaker 2: It's like it is, It's just like a Long Island

1010
00:58:09,840 --> 00:58:13,080
Speaker 2: serial killer list, like this is that is a real

1011
00:58:13,840 --> 00:58:16,760
Speaker 2: horrifying scary list. And according to your point, murder a

1012
00:58:16,840 --> 00:58:20,200
Speaker 2: murder kit, a murder kit, seeing it laid out as

1013
00:58:20,280 --> 00:58:23,160
Speaker 2: evidence on the white sheet, and when you see it

1014
00:58:23,240 --> 00:58:25,440
Speaker 2: laid out that way or like this, this is what

1015
00:58:25,440 --> 00:58:27,680
Speaker 2: you see in the scariest movie you've ever watched.

1016
00:58:28,600 --> 00:58:32,040
Speaker 8: Yeah, it is. And I'm thinking about utility here. I'm

1017
00:58:32,080 --> 00:58:35,120
Speaker 8: wondering what made him Why did he think that he

1018
00:58:35,520 --> 00:58:38,400
Speaker 8: needed non powered tools. I'll put it to you that way,

1019
00:58:38,480 --> 00:58:40,840
Speaker 8: because it's far more efficient to use something like a

1020
00:58:40,880 --> 00:58:44,000
Speaker 8: skill saw or saws. All that that you see with

1021
00:58:44,120 --> 00:58:47,400
Speaker 8: the the agitating blade goes back and forth, you know,

1022
00:58:47,400 --> 00:58:49,600
Speaker 8: and you'll cut you know, sheet rock out with it,

1023
00:58:49,600 --> 00:58:52,160
Speaker 8: and you use all kinds of things. Ten snips are

1024
00:58:52,320 --> 00:58:55,720
Speaker 8: very interesting, sheet metal shears, those sorts of things. He

1025
00:58:55,840 --> 00:58:59,920
Speaker 8: knows that there's work to be done, and you know,

1026
00:59:00,080 --> 00:59:03,440
Speaker 8: he doesn't occupy the same space that myself and colleagues

1027
00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:06,320
Speaker 8: such as myself understand. You go into the morgue and

1028
00:59:06,400 --> 00:59:09,120
Speaker 8: we have a very specific set of tools that we use.

1029
00:59:10,200 --> 00:59:13,920
Speaker 8: I'm not channeling Liam Neeson there by the way. There

1030
00:59:13,960 --> 00:59:16,880
Speaker 8: there is a specific set of tools that we use

1031
00:59:17,360 --> 00:59:20,040
Speaker 8: that we've learned to use for you know, a couple

1032
00:59:20,080 --> 00:59:23,520
Speaker 8: of centuries now, and they all have utility, and they

1033
00:59:23,520 --> 00:59:27,400
Speaker 8: make clean cuts. You're talking about y'all, y'all have talking

1034
00:59:27,400 --> 00:59:30,960
Speaker 8: about a hacket here. Just let that sink in just

1035
00:59:31,000 --> 00:59:35,200
Speaker 8: for a second. Okay, this, Yes, it's a sharp, forced tool,

1036
00:59:35,320 --> 00:59:37,960
Speaker 8: but there's also a blunting effect with this, so you've

1037
00:59:37,960 --> 00:59:41,680
Speaker 8: got crushing that's going on as well. Does he have

1038
00:59:41,880 --> 00:59:45,640
Speaker 8: any kind of history of butchery. That's that's a question

1039
00:59:45,760 --> 00:59:48,600
Speaker 8: that's been asked for years and years about cases. Even

1040
00:59:49,040 --> 00:59:50,800
Speaker 8: you know, if you go back to Jack the Ripper,

1041
00:59:51,000 --> 00:59:52,760
Speaker 8: you know that people talk about, well, he may have

1042
00:59:52,760 --> 00:59:54,720
Speaker 8: been a surgeon or a barber, and these sorts of

1043
00:59:54,760 --> 01:00:01,560
Speaker 8: things understanding human anatomy. Again, this circling back, this brings

1044
01:00:01,640 --> 01:00:06,080
Speaker 8: us to this idea of preparation. And if that doesn't

1045
01:00:06,120 --> 01:00:10,000
Speaker 8: send a chill up your spine and everyone that's listening

1046
01:00:10,040 --> 01:00:13,800
Speaker 8: and following this case, I really don't know what would.

1047
01:00:14,240 --> 01:00:14,600
Speaker 3: Well.

1048
01:00:14,640 --> 01:00:17,400
Speaker 4: A chill has certainly gone up my spine. Thank you

1049
01:00:17,520 --> 01:00:20,080
Speaker 4: very much for breaking that down with your expertise.

1050
01:00:20,520 --> 01:00:21,680
Speaker 2: We appreciate it so much.

1051
01:00:21,720 --> 01:00:25,240
Speaker 4: And listen, stick around because forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan

1052
01:00:25,920 --> 01:00:27,840
Speaker 4: will be with us and we're going to be digging

1053
01:00:27,840 --> 01:00:31,360
Speaker 4: into the forensics, into the David the Pop Star and

1054
01:00:31,440 --> 01:00:32,160
Speaker 4: seles reevs.

1055
01:00:32,160 --> 01:00:46,760
Speaker 2: Henrandez case. True Crime Tonight. Welcome back to True Crime

1056
01:00:46,760 --> 01:00:50,080
Speaker 2: Tonight on iHeartRadio. We've been talking true crime all the time.

1057
01:00:50,200 --> 01:00:54,400
Speaker 2: I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with Courtney Armstrong. Listen, we have

1058
01:00:54,560 --> 01:00:58,640
Speaker 2: Taha stepping in to the microphone straight from the control room.

1059
01:00:58,840 --> 01:01:01,880
Speaker 2: And as always on Sunday nights, we have our most

1060
01:01:01,920 --> 01:01:07,120
Speaker 2: favorite forensics expert, Joseph Scott Morgan hosted a hit Bodybags podcast.

1061
01:01:07,240 --> 01:01:10,560
Speaker 2: If you haven't listened, you have to listen. He has

1062
01:01:10,600 --> 01:01:13,320
Speaker 2: three episodes a week and again, the way you break

1063
01:01:13,360 --> 01:01:17,040
Speaker 2: down forensics Joseph is clearly like no other. We've been

1064
01:01:17,080 --> 01:01:21,720
Speaker 2: talking about the Brian Walsh accused wife killer case and

1065
01:01:22,320 --> 01:01:24,760
Speaker 2: we've gotten some dms and some questions, and I know

1066
01:01:24,800 --> 01:01:28,240
Speaker 2: Courtney has some burning ones still too, So why don't

1067
01:01:28,280 --> 01:01:31,840
Speaker 2: we just jam through as many forensics questions as we can?

1068
01:01:32,360 --> 01:01:34,960
Speaker 4: So just a little bit more information that came out

1069
01:01:34,960 --> 01:01:38,280
Speaker 4: and trial that we'd love clarity on from you. So

1070
01:01:38,680 --> 01:01:41,480
Speaker 4: things in addition to the tools we talked about and

1071
01:01:41,520 --> 01:01:47,240
Speaker 4: the tie thatc protective clothing, things such as hydrogen peroxide, sponges,

1072
01:01:47,440 --> 01:01:52,720
Speaker 4: wipes and other cleaning related materials came up. So this

1073
01:01:52,960 --> 01:01:57,680
Speaker 4: is also in addition to some digital forensics which talks

1074
01:01:57,680 --> 01:02:00,560
Speaker 4: about Google searches about not only the best way to

1075
01:02:00,560 --> 01:02:04,560
Speaker 4: dispose of a body, but how long DNA lasts, whether

1076
01:02:04,600 --> 01:02:08,440
Speaker 4: you can identify someone from partial remains, and what cleaners

1077
01:02:08,480 --> 01:02:13,280
Speaker 4: will remove DNA from wood floors, what information sticks in

1078
01:02:13,320 --> 01:02:14,960
Speaker 4: your medical mind that we don't know.

1079
01:02:15,720 --> 01:02:18,040
Speaker 8: Well, I'll put it to you this way. We're recovering

1080
01:02:18,120 --> 01:02:20,600
Speaker 8: DNA all human remains that have been dead for a

1081
01:02:20,640 --> 01:02:25,440
Speaker 8: thousand years now. So no, no, you can't if you

1082
01:02:25,520 --> 01:02:29,040
Speaker 8: find human remains. Now, the question is how viable is it?

1083
01:02:29,160 --> 01:02:29,280
Speaker 2: All?

1084
01:02:29,360 --> 01:02:32,320
Speaker 8: Right? So let's just say that we recover are they

1085
01:02:32,600 --> 01:02:34,120
Speaker 8: not we I don't have to do it anymore. I

1086
01:02:34,200 --> 01:02:37,720
Speaker 8: just get to talk about it. That's the best thing.

1087
01:02:38,320 --> 01:02:41,680
Speaker 8: Let's just say that we recover a dental element like

1088
01:02:41,680 --> 01:02:44,720
Speaker 8: a tooth, I compare teeth. Okay, this is why I

1089
01:02:44,760 --> 01:02:45,000
Speaker 8: do it.

1090
01:02:45,080 --> 01:02:45,240
Speaker 5: Now.

1091
01:02:45,480 --> 01:02:48,440
Speaker 8: This is kind of a little mini crime lab. If

1092
01:02:48,440 --> 01:02:52,600
Speaker 8: you think about bones, all right, bones are a leather

1093
01:02:52,680 --> 01:02:57,360
Speaker 8: breadcase for carrying and transporting DNA information and it's beautiful,

1094
01:02:57,440 --> 01:03:01,920
Speaker 8: it works very very well. Okay, Teeth are like a

1095
01:03:02,040 --> 01:03:07,640
Speaker 8: titanium briefcase for carrying DNA. So because they're self contained,

1096
01:03:07,680 --> 01:03:10,840
Speaker 8: teeth are not bone. So let's just say, for grins

1097
01:03:10,880 --> 01:03:14,320
Speaker 8: and giggles that we recover a tooth. And we're just

1098
01:03:14,360 --> 01:03:17,200
Speaker 8: talking a tooth. That's not necessarily going to point you

1099
01:03:17,280 --> 01:03:20,640
Speaker 8: in the direction of a cause of death. However, it

1100
01:03:20,680 --> 01:03:24,520
Speaker 8: is an element that could lead to that could lead

1101
01:03:24,560 --> 01:03:28,080
Speaker 8: to an identification. Okay, not to mention if you had

1102
01:03:28,120 --> 01:03:31,000
Speaker 8: a tooth. If we continue this logic, this train of logic,

1103
01:03:31,400 --> 01:03:33,480
Speaker 8: we think about any kind of restorations that are done

1104
01:03:33,520 --> 01:03:35,440
Speaker 8: on the toos. What was she known to have cavity

1105
01:03:35,680 --> 01:03:39,720
Speaker 8: that was filled or partial? Or was there crown or

1106
01:03:39,960 --> 01:03:43,840
Speaker 8: anything you know that might end up that way. She's

1107
01:03:44,120 --> 01:03:47,520
Speaker 8: been gone some time now, and i'd actually I think

1108
01:03:47,560 --> 01:03:50,440
Speaker 8: it leads and forgive me, I don't know if I'm

1109
01:03:50,440 --> 01:03:53,880
Speaker 8: completely accurate, but I had heard about this idea of

1110
01:03:55,640 --> 01:03:59,960
Speaker 8: placing remains in trash cans and they may have been

1111
01:04:00,080 --> 01:04:06,040
Speaker 8: conveyed somewhere. I'm thinking landfill. Landfills are horror shows for

1112
01:04:06,160 --> 01:04:08,200
Speaker 8: recovery of remains. I've had to do it a couple

1113
01:04:08,200 --> 01:04:10,520
Speaker 8: of times. It's something that it would be on my

1114
01:04:10,600 --> 01:04:12,640
Speaker 8: top ten list of things I would not want to

1115
01:04:12,680 --> 01:04:15,920
Speaker 8: repeat in my life because it's an absolute nightmare. That

1116
01:04:16,120 --> 01:04:19,120
Speaker 8: is what referred to as an aerobic environment. You have

1117
01:04:19,360 --> 01:04:23,320
Speaker 8: anaerobic and aerobic think about aerobics doing oxygen, I mean

1118
01:04:23,400 --> 01:04:29,720
Speaker 8: doing exercise, You're driving oxygen in that oxygenated environment. At

1119
01:04:29,760 --> 01:04:33,200
Speaker 8: a molecular level, everything is in a state of cay

1120
01:04:33,280 --> 01:04:36,360
Speaker 8: so it breaks down very very difficult, even if you can

1121
01:04:36,400 --> 01:04:40,480
Speaker 8: find it and it's compacted. The question is where all

1122
01:04:40,520 --> 01:04:43,120
Speaker 8: of her remains disposed of in that manner. It seems

1123
01:04:43,240 --> 01:04:45,320
Speaker 8: rather convenient, you know, in order to do it, and

1124
01:04:45,360 --> 01:04:47,960
Speaker 8: we've covered a lot of cases over the years where

1125
01:04:48,000 --> 01:04:50,840
Speaker 8: that has in fact happened and remains are not always

1126
01:04:50,880 --> 01:04:53,240
Speaker 8: found because you will have people that will say yeah,

1127
01:04:53,480 --> 01:04:55,400
Speaker 8: you know, they roll over and say, yeah, you know,

1128
01:04:55,720 --> 01:04:58,280
Speaker 8: I disposed of the remains in a trash can. The

1129
01:04:58,320 --> 01:05:01,439
Speaker 8: trans trash can was conveyed. We could do an entire

1130
01:05:01,440 --> 01:05:05,760
Speaker 8: dissertation on how landfills work because it's incredible, I mean,

1131
01:05:05,920 --> 01:05:08,000
Speaker 8: the volume that they have to deal with. Then we

1132
01:05:08,000 --> 01:05:10,920
Speaker 8: think about these other elements that are left behind. I

1133
01:05:10,960 --> 01:05:16,160
Speaker 8: think it scenes. You know you had mentioned about cleaning supplies. Yeah,

1134
01:05:16,280 --> 01:05:18,919
Speaker 8: they work to a certain degree. But when you get

1135
01:05:18,960 --> 01:05:22,960
Speaker 8: these agents like blue Star and of course famously luminol

1136
01:05:23,520 --> 01:05:27,160
Speaker 8: that's reactive with blood and it only lasts for a second.

1137
01:05:27,160 --> 01:05:28,680
Speaker 8: By the way, I think people think that it will

1138
01:05:28,680 --> 01:05:30,440
Speaker 8: just say there forever and ever and glow. It doesn't.

1139
01:05:30,520 --> 01:05:32,520
Speaker 8: You have to have your camera ready and the lights

1140
01:05:32,520 --> 01:05:36,560
Speaker 8: are off when you snap that image because it fades.

1141
01:05:38,040 --> 01:05:40,960
Speaker 2: You can what you put in like a black and

1142
01:05:41,000 --> 01:05:44,480
Speaker 2: white photo. I'm imagining that it takes the crime scene

1143
01:05:45,040 --> 01:05:47,840
Speaker 2: blood and it illuminates it so you can see a

1144
01:05:47,920 --> 01:05:49,400
Speaker 2: highlighter in a black room.

1145
01:05:50,240 --> 01:05:54,160
Speaker 8: It is and actually it's got kind of grotesque, I know,

1146
01:05:54,200 --> 01:05:56,080
Speaker 8: but it's got kind of a lovely glow to it.

1147
01:05:56,080 --> 01:05:59,680
Speaker 8: It's it's almost a blue illuminescence, if you will, And

1148
01:05:59,800 --> 01:06:04,560
Speaker 8: it's striking when you see it, and dependent upon the

1149
01:06:04,680 --> 01:06:07,880
Speaker 8: dynamics of the deposition, you can see patterns. You can

1150
01:06:07,880 --> 01:06:12,439
Speaker 8: see footprints, you can see arterial spray, you can see

1151
01:06:12,480 --> 01:06:16,200
Speaker 8: swipes and wipes, Okay, like if somebody's trying to clean up.

1152
01:06:16,240 --> 01:06:18,959
Speaker 8: You'll see if you guys have if anyone at home

1153
01:06:19,000 --> 01:06:21,920
Speaker 8: has ever had like they've used a mop, like an

1154
01:06:21,920 --> 01:06:25,720
Speaker 8: old string mob that's filthy, okay, And you're trying to

1155
01:06:25,760 --> 01:06:28,160
Speaker 8: clean your floors and you look down the floor and

1156
01:06:28,200 --> 01:06:30,120
Speaker 8: it's like, oh my god, it's like a mud hole

1157
01:06:30,160 --> 01:06:33,560
Speaker 8: on my floor now because mop is filthy. It actually

1158
01:06:34,000 --> 01:06:37,120
Speaker 8: looks that way many times the mop strings do. And

1159
01:06:37,160 --> 01:06:39,200
Speaker 8: you'll see that in smears where people have gone over

1160
01:06:39,240 --> 01:06:42,760
Speaker 8: and tried to clean it. It doesn't completely eradicate it. However,

1161
01:06:43,040 --> 01:06:46,720
Speaker 8: the more chemicals you apply to it, it degrades it.

1162
01:06:47,280 --> 01:06:50,160
Speaker 8: And the further out in time you go, how much

1163
01:06:50,240 --> 01:06:52,760
Speaker 8: more so, So you're talking about things like potentially bleached

1164
01:06:52,800 --> 01:06:56,040
Speaker 8: hydrogen peroxide, and there are other agents, and on a

1165
01:06:56,040 --> 01:06:58,040
Speaker 8: show like this, I'm not going to go into everything

1166
01:06:58,080 --> 01:07:02,040
Speaker 8: I know, okay, to talk about eradication of evidence that

1167
01:07:02,040 --> 01:07:05,520
Speaker 8: that wouldn't be cool. But I'm just I'm just saying

1168
01:07:06,320 --> 01:07:11,400
Speaker 8: people always miss something. It's such a messy affair, and

1169
01:07:11,480 --> 01:07:15,160
Speaker 8: most people that commit dismemberments don't understand that going in.

1170
01:07:15,280 --> 01:07:18,240
Speaker 8: That's why you wind up with partial dismemberments because they

1171
01:07:18,240 --> 01:07:19,920
Speaker 8: get in the middle of it and they're like they've

1172
01:07:19,920 --> 01:07:21,520
Speaker 8: got one foot in the boat and one foot in

1173
01:07:21,520 --> 01:07:23,360
Speaker 8: the water. They don't know what to do at that

1174
01:07:23,440 --> 01:07:26,240
Speaker 8: point in time because it's an absolute nightmare.

1175
01:07:26,440 --> 01:07:29,600
Speaker 2: It is the absolute last place that a brain should

1176
01:07:29,640 --> 01:07:32,000
Speaker 2: go too. I mean, of all of the options that

1177
01:07:32,040 --> 01:07:35,960
Speaker 2: were on accused wife killer Brian Walsh's list or on

1178
01:07:36,040 --> 01:07:40,040
Speaker 2: his menu, if you will, hey, call authorities, perhaps she

1179
01:07:40,120 --> 01:07:42,240
Speaker 2: can be saved. And there's a medical reason that something

1180
01:07:42,280 --> 01:07:45,800
Speaker 2: has happened. B call a loved one and then nine

1181
01:07:45,880 --> 01:07:47,960
Speaker 2: one one in a medical authority because you're concerned that

1182
01:07:48,000 --> 01:07:50,160
Speaker 2: your wife may have been you know, maybe she had

1183
01:07:50,160 --> 01:07:53,800
Speaker 2: an aneurysm or something sudden has happened. That is petrifying

1184
01:07:53,840 --> 01:07:56,400
Speaker 2: and it's so scary. The idea that you're now going

1185
01:07:56,440 --> 01:07:59,960
Speaker 2: to say that your wife is never going to be

1186
01:08:00,160 --> 01:08:04,040
Speaker 2: found for your children to put them at rest. The

1187
01:08:04,160 --> 01:08:07,200
Speaker 2: idea in Joseph, you and I talk about this stuff offline,

1188
01:08:07,240 --> 01:08:12,040
Speaker 2: so often the reach to go straight to dismemberment in

1189
01:08:12,080 --> 01:08:16,000
Speaker 2: the human mind, I think is a really crucial piece

1190
01:08:16,040 --> 01:08:19,400
Speaker 2: of the story. That is a leap that is not

1191
01:08:19,479 --> 01:08:23,400
Speaker 2: that burying somebody in the ground is better, but of

1192
01:08:23,439 --> 01:08:26,880
Speaker 2: all the no better things and all the scary, horrendous

1193
01:08:26,880 --> 01:08:31,160
Speaker 2: things at this point, going there is even the scariest

1194
01:08:31,400 --> 01:08:33,880
Speaker 2: of all things. And then he's so calm after.

1195
01:08:34,240 --> 01:08:39,559
Speaker 8: Yeah, And you know, there's multiple there's about five different

1196
01:08:39,600 --> 01:08:43,760
Speaker 8: types of dismemberment that people are profiled on. Most people

1197
01:08:43,800 --> 01:08:45,760
Speaker 8: don't know this, and I can't name all five of

1198
01:08:45,800 --> 01:08:48,240
Speaker 8: them off of the top of my head, but one

1199
01:08:48,280 --> 01:08:51,559
Speaker 8: of them, primarily is utility, and what you will get

1200
01:08:51,800 --> 01:08:57,880
Speaker 8: is a dissection of all of the limbs. Okay, so

1201
01:08:57,960 --> 01:09:01,400
Speaker 8: if we just think about taking appendages off of the body,

1202
01:09:01,600 --> 01:09:04,439
Speaker 8: and that includes the head, both arms, and both legs,

1203
01:09:04,479 --> 01:09:08,559
Speaker 8: and they never touch the torso, and that's that kind

1204
01:09:08,560 --> 01:09:11,120
Speaker 8: of has a utility to it because they're trying to

1205
01:09:11,160 --> 01:09:15,639
Speaker 8: compartmentalize a body in order for purposes of disposal. Then

1206
01:09:15,680 --> 01:09:18,360
Speaker 8: you'll have people that just straight up desecrat or remain

1207
01:09:19,680 --> 01:09:23,000
Speaker 8: and there's a lot of psychopathology that goes into that.

1208
01:09:24,280 --> 01:09:27,840
Speaker 8: You know, you'll have people that's another group that are

1209
01:09:27,840 --> 01:09:31,519
Speaker 8: souvenir takers, you know, those sorts of things. And there's

1210
01:09:31,520 --> 01:09:33,839
Speaker 8: a whole litany of these things that people have studied

1211
01:09:33,840 --> 01:09:38,559
Speaker 8: over the years. So you know, you begin to think

1212
01:09:38,600 --> 01:09:42,640
Speaker 8: about this with him. It sounds it doesn't sound like

1213
01:09:42,720 --> 01:09:46,000
Speaker 8: something that was done by an irrational person, all right,

1214
01:09:46,600 --> 01:09:49,080
Speaker 8: because we have planning, you know that goes on with this,

1215
01:09:49,320 --> 01:09:52,240
Speaker 8: a lot of planning. You know. I don't know. Listen,

1216
01:09:52,760 --> 01:09:56,479
Speaker 8: I've been in my share of tie exsuits, y'all. I

1217
01:09:56,479 --> 01:09:58,599
Speaker 8: ain't got one around the house. I don't want one

1218
01:09:58,640 --> 01:10:00,920
Speaker 8: around the house, all right. It's something you have to

1219
01:10:00,960 --> 01:10:02,760
Speaker 8: It's an active, active bit.

1220
01:10:02,840 --> 01:10:06,800
Speaker 6: You have to go track one down that's a crazy.

1221
01:10:06,400 --> 01:10:07,720
Speaker 10: One, you know.

1222
01:10:07,920 --> 01:10:11,280
Speaker 4: Let's all hope these pinous thoughts, uh, don't are the

1223
01:10:11,320 --> 01:10:12,479
Speaker 4: first ones that dawn on us.

1224
01:10:12,479 --> 01:10:14,840
Speaker 2: As she points it out, Stephanie, in any situation.

1225
01:10:15,720 --> 01:10:19,639
Speaker 4: My goodness, this is true crime tonight, and we are

1226
01:10:19,760 --> 01:10:22,719
Speaker 4: so happy to be here with forensic expert Joseph Scott

1227
01:10:22,800 --> 01:10:26,000
Speaker 4: Morgan and he's been breaking down all the cases of

1228
01:10:26,000 --> 01:10:28,439
Speaker 4: the week. We just finished up with some information on

1229
01:10:28,560 --> 01:10:32,120
Speaker 4: accused wife killer Brian Walsh. We will stay with this

1230
01:10:32,240 --> 01:10:35,559
Speaker 4: case as it evolves in the coming weeks. But now

1231
01:10:35,600 --> 01:10:39,479
Speaker 4: I was thinking we turn our attention to the David

1232
01:10:39,640 --> 01:10:41,320
Speaker 4: Celestiavius Hernandez case.

1233
01:10:41,360 --> 01:10:44,559
Speaker 2: If that works. Yeah, we have so many questions, Joseph.

1234
01:10:44,800 --> 01:10:46,040
Speaker 2: Of course, do you want to give us a little

1235
01:10:46,040 --> 01:10:49,960
Speaker 2: setup on that case? Absolutely so.

1236
01:10:50,640 --> 01:10:54,280
Speaker 4: Los Angeles County Criminal Grand Jury has heard evidence and

1237
01:10:54,320 --> 01:10:56,439
Speaker 4: this is in regard to the death of fourteen year

1238
01:10:56,439 --> 01:11:01,040
Speaker 4: old Celestriebus Hernandez. Her remains were found back in September eighth,

1239
01:11:01,479 --> 01:11:03,559
Speaker 4: and it was in the front trunk of the tesla

1240
01:11:03,640 --> 01:11:07,439
Speaker 4: that was registered to the pop Star David. While the

1241
01:11:07,479 --> 01:11:12,479
Speaker 4: District Attorney's office continues presenting evidence in what's being described

1242
01:11:12,479 --> 01:11:16,479
Speaker 4: in court filings as a quote investigation into murder, So

1243
01:11:16,720 --> 01:11:20,400
Speaker 4: they're not saying murder yet, but in investigation to murder,

1244
01:11:20,880 --> 01:11:26,280
Speaker 4: the LAPD is now publicly correcting gruesome rumors about both

1245
01:11:26,320 --> 01:11:31,240
Speaker 4: the condition of Celestia Hernandez's body and stressing that key

1246
01:11:31,320 --> 01:11:36,480
Speaker 4: forensic tests that include toxicology as well as autopsy work

1247
01:11:37,240 --> 01:11:38,800
Speaker 4: are still pending.

1248
01:11:40,520 --> 01:11:44,439
Speaker 2: So, Joseph, what what do.

1249
01:11:44,439 --> 01:11:48,960
Speaker 4: You make of all of this misinformation information? You know,

1250
01:11:49,160 --> 01:11:52,439
Speaker 4: it's been people have said that or police now are

1251
01:11:52,520 --> 01:11:56,960
Speaker 4: saying that selest remains were partially dismembered, that she was

1252
01:11:57,080 --> 01:12:00,439
Speaker 4: not decapitated, and that a lot of the online rumors

1253
01:12:00,439 --> 01:12:06,240
Speaker 4: simply aren't true. So do you learn anything from about

1254
01:12:06,280 --> 01:12:07,400
Speaker 4: intent or planning?

1255
01:12:09,560 --> 01:12:12,000
Speaker 8: Yeah, you can. I mean, there's still utility to this.

1256
01:12:12,680 --> 01:12:14,600
Speaker 8: You know. One of the biggest questions I've had with

1257
01:12:14,720 --> 01:12:17,840
Speaker 8: this case. I love these many months now has it

1258
01:12:17,920 --> 01:12:20,600
Speaker 8: been months? It has been months?

1259
01:12:20,800 --> 01:12:21,000
Speaker 2: Yeah?

1260
01:12:21,080 --> 01:12:27,120
Speaker 8: Oh my lord, yeah, yeah. So one of my questions

1261
01:12:27,160 --> 01:12:33,559
Speaker 8: has been throughout this scene. First off, where would she

1262
01:12:34,479 --> 01:12:36,720
Speaker 8: if there is a dismemberment? All right, I don't know

1263
01:12:36,720 --> 01:12:39,320
Speaker 8: who to believe it to the point I really don't,

1264
01:12:39,560 --> 01:12:42,320
Speaker 8: you know. I mean, because we've heard so much and

1265
01:12:42,400 --> 01:12:45,439
Speaker 8: there have been quote unquote reliable sources all over the place.

1266
01:12:46,120 --> 01:12:51,200
Speaker 8: And remember I said, quote unquote, but let's just run

1267
01:12:51,240 --> 01:12:54,160
Speaker 8: with this and say that she was dismembered. Where exactly

1268
01:12:54,200 --> 01:12:58,920
Speaker 8: did this dismemberment take place? I have thought for some

1269
01:12:59,160 --> 01:13:03,240
Speaker 8: time that, because you know how I was talking about

1270
01:13:03,240 --> 01:13:08,320
Speaker 8: typologies with dismemberments, you do have these individuals that fall

1271
01:13:08,360 --> 01:13:12,800
Speaker 8: into a category of panic dismemberment, like, oh my lord,

1272
01:13:13,320 --> 01:13:16,360
Speaker 8: what do I do? And it's almost like a you know,

1273
01:13:16,479 --> 01:13:19,719
Speaker 8: in law, there's a term called in koheate, which means

1274
01:13:19,720 --> 01:13:22,679
Speaker 8: you intend to do something, but you don't complete the deed,

1275
01:13:25,240 --> 01:13:27,240
Speaker 8: and that can happen, I think in a case of

1276
01:13:27,560 --> 01:13:31,960
Speaker 8: kind of panicked dismemberment. But still we do have the

1277
01:13:32,000 --> 01:13:37,519
Speaker 8: word dismemberment floating around. Something has been separated from the remains. Okay,

1278
01:13:37,600 --> 01:13:40,840
Speaker 8: we don't know which appendage, we don't know what degree.

1279
01:13:41,080 --> 01:13:44,200
Speaker 8: Was it a foot? Singly a foot singularly a foot?

1280
01:13:44,360 --> 01:13:46,280
Speaker 8: Was it an entire leg? Was it both legs? Was

1281
01:13:46,320 --> 01:13:49,920
Speaker 8: an arm? They're saying she was not decapitated. I'm thinking,

1282
01:13:50,560 --> 01:13:55,360
Speaker 8: what was? She partially dismembered somewhere in a panic, and

1283
01:13:55,840 --> 01:13:59,679
Speaker 8: they have her remains stowed somewhere else in the house,

1284
01:14:00,520 --> 01:14:05,640
Speaker 8: and she begins, forgive me to become very foul and intolerable,

1285
01:14:05,920 --> 01:14:08,080
Speaker 8: that smell. They don't know what to do with her.

1286
01:14:08,360 --> 01:14:10,560
Speaker 8: So is it at that point in time that the

1287
01:14:10,680 --> 01:14:15,880
Speaker 8: remains are then kind of sequestered into the tesla? All right?

1288
01:14:16,760 --> 01:14:20,080
Speaker 8: And still there? Then the tesla has moved around, you know,

1289
01:14:20,080 --> 01:14:23,400
Speaker 8: because of the foul or no one trusts me. Once

1290
01:14:23,400 --> 01:14:25,080
Speaker 8: you've been around it, you don't want to be around it,

1291
01:14:25,120 --> 01:14:28,960
Speaker 8: particularly civilians. It's just not something anyone ever gets used

1292
01:14:28,960 --> 01:14:35,240
Speaker 8: to and I've had those thoughts. There would be with

1293
01:14:35,400 --> 01:14:39,040
Speaker 8: any dismemberment, there's generally a copious amount of biological evidence.

1294
01:14:39,880 --> 01:14:42,200
Speaker 2: I have a question about just the idea for being

1295
01:14:42,320 --> 01:14:46,280
Speaker 2: frozen trigger alert. Going to keep it very graphic less

1296
01:14:46,080 --> 01:14:49,400
Speaker 2: as clean as possible, But there have been reports, or

1297
01:14:49,400 --> 01:14:51,559
Speaker 2: at least has been written that David the Pop Star

1298
01:14:51,640 --> 01:14:58,280
Speaker 2: potentially traveled to hit in our room, so he traveled,

1299
01:14:58,479 --> 01:15:00,320
Speaker 2: you know, there have been reports that David the Pop

1300
01:15:00,360 --> 01:15:03,360
Speaker 2: Star travel to Santa Barbara, either by himself or with

1301
01:15:03,479 --> 01:15:08,840
Speaker 2: one or two others undisclosed information there. The assertion is

1302
01:15:08,880 --> 01:15:12,160
Speaker 2: that perhaps she was dismembered there and in order to

1303
01:15:12,360 --> 01:15:17,680
Speaker 2: contain the odor that would be months after her you know,

1304
01:15:17,760 --> 01:15:20,640
Speaker 2: this would go so long beyond you know how that

1305
01:15:20,680 --> 01:15:24,360
Speaker 2: would be tolerable to quote you that maybe that's why

1306
01:15:24,600 --> 01:15:28,600
Speaker 2: she was frozen and frozen for as long as could be.

1307
01:15:29,080 --> 01:15:32,360
Speaker 2: And then once that seemed like not a good idea,

1308
01:15:32,400 --> 01:15:35,719
Speaker 2: they took her frozen remains and put that in the front,

1309
01:15:36,520 --> 01:15:39,679
Speaker 2: which would kind of check both boxes that's happening between

1310
01:15:39,680 --> 01:15:42,920
Speaker 2: the medical examiner and the LAPD, which is maybe there

1311
01:15:42,960 --> 01:15:46,160
Speaker 2: were in fact some soaked fingerprints. Maybe that did really

1312
01:15:46,280 --> 01:15:48,840
Speaker 2: maybe that was the reason that her body didn't have

1313
01:15:48,920 --> 01:15:52,559
Speaker 2: the same odor that you're describing for as long as

1314
01:15:53,000 --> 01:15:54,880
Speaker 2: as long as she was allegedly in there. I know

1315
01:15:54,960 --> 01:15:57,840
Speaker 2: the timeline is still a work in progress and evolving.

1316
01:15:58,479 --> 01:16:02,760
Speaker 2: Does that track what it freezing human remain? Actually maybe

1317
01:16:02,760 --> 01:16:05,280
Speaker 2: we answer this right after the break. But with that,

1318
01:16:05,800 --> 01:16:08,479
Speaker 2: here's what you gotta think about, Joseph. The question is

1319
01:16:09,000 --> 01:16:14,600
Speaker 2: wood freezing remains actually prevent the odor from being that noticeable?

1320
01:16:14,960 --> 01:16:19,280
Speaker 2: And does that match the potential timeline in celest revis

1321
01:16:19,320 --> 01:16:21,519
Speaker 2: her name Issus case. And by the way, we're going

1322
01:16:21,600 --> 01:16:33,040
Speaker 2: to be right back true Crime Tonight. Stick with us.

1323
01:16:34,800 --> 01:16:37,599
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We've been

1324
01:16:37,600 --> 01:16:41,120
Speaker 2: talking true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie here with Courtney.

1325
01:16:41,400 --> 01:16:43,639
Speaker 2: We have Taha in the control room, and of course

1326
01:16:43,680 --> 01:16:48,200
Speaker 2: you're joined by forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan, our very

1327
01:16:48,360 --> 01:16:51,439
Speaker 2: own and also he's the host of body Bags, the

1328
01:16:51,479 --> 01:16:54,280
Speaker 2: hit podcast. Please check it out. We are knee deep

1329
01:16:54,280 --> 01:16:57,400
Speaker 2: in all things David the pop star and the case

1330
01:16:57,439 --> 01:17:01,160
Speaker 2: of fourteen year old Celeste Revus her name as the

1331
01:17:01,240 --> 01:17:03,679
Speaker 2: question being, there's been a lot of back and forth

1332
01:17:03,720 --> 01:17:08,080
Speaker 2: in speculation that perhaps her body was frozen or water

1333
01:17:08,160 --> 01:17:11,400
Speaker 2: logged upon being found. And is it possible that if

1334
01:17:11,439 --> 01:17:16,280
Speaker 2: your body is in fact frozen, that decomp would slow

1335
01:17:17,280 --> 01:17:20,400
Speaker 2: or the odor would slow, which would explain why she

1336
01:17:20,479 --> 01:17:22,120
Speaker 2: wasn't identified in the car sooner?

1337
01:17:23,120 --> 01:17:26,559
Speaker 8: Yes, yes, and yes. Okay, However, let's go to the

1338
01:17:26,600 --> 01:17:29,200
Speaker 8: water logging thing. I want to dispel this really quickly.

1339
01:17:29,840 --> 01:17:33,559
Speaker 8: There's something that happens. I think fingerprints came up at

1340
01:17:33,560 --> 01:17:36,760
Speaker 8: one point in time about identification. There's a process that

1341
01:17:36,880 --> 01:17:41,160
Speaker 8: happens with decomposing remains. When we begin to think about fingers.

1342
01:17:41,280 --> 01:17:43,759
Speaker 8: If folks will just think about being in the pool.

1343
01:17:43,840 --> 01:17:45,840
Speaker 8: You remember, Mamma used to look at you. You'd say,

1344
01:17:45,920 --> 01:17:48,080
Speaker 8: let me see your fingers, and back in the day,

1345
01:17:48,160 --> 01:17:50,360
Speaker 8: that was an indication you've been in a pool too long.

1346
01:17:51,080 --> 01:17:54,639
Speaker 8: So your fingers get pruned up, right. Well, that happens

1347
01:17:54,680 --> 01:17:57,320
Speaker 8: with the decomposing dead. And one of the things that

1348
01:17:57,360 --> 01:17:59,760
Speaker 8: we do in order to lift a print is that

1349
01:17:59,840 --> 01:18:03,240
Speaker 8: we inject fingertips with what's called tissue builder, and it

1350
01:18:03,360 --> 01:18:07,680
Speaker 8: literally makes the fingertips swell. Okay, so we can roll

1351
01:18:07,720 --> 01:18:12,320
Speaker 8: a print that's not indicative of water logging. That's a

1352
01:18:12,439 --> 01:18:15,679
Speaker 8: natural process. So let's just get that off the table

1353
01:18:15,880 --> 01:18:18,799
Speaker 8: from Jump Street. Now, if you want to talk about freezing,

1354
01:18:18,840 --> 01:18:21,559
Speaker 8: here's something interesting that we've never talked about on True

1355
01:18:21,560 --> 01:18:25,240
Speaker 8: Crime tonight, and that is histology. And histology is the

1356
01:18:25,280 --> 01:18:30,439
Speaker 8: microscopic study of tissues. Now, let me ask you guys

1357
01:18:30,479 --> 01:18:35,000
Speaker 8: a little quizzlet here. Heat. Heat makes things do what

1358
01:18:35,439 --> 01:18:40,679
Speaker 8: melan span right? Hot air expands, you know those sorts

1359
01:18:40,680 --> 01:18:43,599
Speaker 8: of things. Heat will cost pavement to crack all that.

1360
01:18:44,320 --> 01:18:47,800
Speaker 8: So if heat does that, what does coal do makes

1361
01:18:47,840 --> 01:18:53,560
Speaker 8: it tracked? Right? So if when you look at the tissues,

1362
01:18:53,840 --> 01:18:56,519
Speaker 8: and I'm not going to go too deep into this,

1363
01:18:57,160 --> 01:19:00,280
Speaker 8: but when you look at the tissues microscopically, even the

1364
01:19:00,360 --> 01:19:04,559
Speaker 8: decomposing tissues in a body that has been frozen, you'll

1365
01:19:04,600 --> 01:19:08,760
Speaker 8: actually see these little spaces and gaps at a cellular

1366
01:19:08,880 --> 01:19:12,840
Speaker 8: level where the tissue has contracted down and it doesn't

1367
01:19:12,880 --> 01:19:15,960
Speaker 8: go back. There's no elasticity to make it pop back

1368
01:19:15,960 --> 01:19:20,759
Speaker 8: any longer. Isn't that kind of cool? So that's something

1369
01:19:20,800 --> 01:19:26,519
Speaker 8: that can be either debunked or verified microscopically. You know,

1370
01:19:26,800 --> 01:19:30,400
Speaker 8: with La County and if this is on the table,

1371
01:19:30,720 --> 01:19:33,920
Speaker 8: those people are pretty dog on bride out there. I

1372
01:19:33,960 --> 01:19:37,439
Speaker 8: can imagine that the histo service there at La County

1373
01:19:38,280 --> 01:19:42,439
Speaker 8: Corner would have done this. You take samples on every case,

1374
01:19:42,560 --> 01:19:45,599
Speaker 8: all right, but in this particular case they will take them,

1375
01:19:45,680 --> 01:19:49,800
Speaker 8: and that leads us into another area because everybody is

1376
01:19:49,920 --> 01:19:53,320
Speaker 8: right now and rightly so it is begging to find

1377
01:19:53,360 --> 01:19:58,720
Speaker 8: out about toxicology. Okay. So generally with toxicology on a

1378
01:19:58,800 --> 01:20:02,479
Speaker 8: standard autopsy, what we lean on is what we call

1379
01:20:04,120 --> 01:20:07,280
Speaker 8: aortic blood. We go into the A order, which is

1380
01:20:07,280 --> 01:20:10,280
Speaker 8: the major vessel coming off the heart, and you draw

1381
01:20:10,320 --> 01:20:14,720
Speaker 8: the blood from there. Uh. We take Victor's fluid from

1382
01:20:14,720 --> 01:20:19,519
Speaker 8: the eyes, we take urine, uh, and we take bile. Okay,

1383
01:20:19,840 --> 01:20:22,880
Speaker 8: but in a case, and what were the date again

1384
01:20:23,040 --> 01:20:25,760
Speaker 8: that they've moved us dates further back in time. I

1385
01:20:25,760 --> 01:20:29,439
Speaker 8: think April or something like that. Bat spring, right, So

1386
01:20:29,960 --> 01:20:33,479
Speaker 8: it's so convoluted, it's we know it's a protracted period

1387
01:20:33,479 --> 01:20:33,840
Speaker 8: of time.

1388
01:20:35,840 --> 01:20:37,519
Speaker 9: I think her remains were found or I know her

1389
01:20:37,520 --> 01:20:39,240
Speaker 9: remains were found in September eighth.

1390
01:20:39,360 --> 01:20:40,360
Speaker 2: Is that what you're referring to?

1391
01:20:40,640 --> 01:20:44,679
Speaker 4: No, I think I think Joseph, you're referring to should

1392
01:20:44,720 --> 01:20:47,280
Speaker 4: this trip to Santa Barbara, which has been spoken about

1393
01:20:47,360 --> 01:20:50,559
Speaker 4: quite a bit, that much has been made of it,

1394
01:20:50,600 --> 01:20:52,760
Speaker 4: we don't know exactly what but that happened back in

1395
01:20:53,000 --> 01:20:56,880
Speaker 4: the spring. It didn't designate exactly March April May.

1396
01:20:57,080 --> 01:20:57,960
Speaker 2: That backs it up.

1397
01:20:58,479 --> 01:21:04,519
Speaker 4: And then also according to the private investigator Steve Fisher,

1398
01:21:05,400 --> 01:21:08,320
Speaker 4: he helped on the timeline a little bit as well,

1399
01:21:08,880 --> 01:21:11,320
Speaker 4: and what he said was that the tesla sat in

1400
01:21:11,400 --> 01:21:14,599
Speaker 4: different spots around the Hollywood of Hills before being left

1401
01:21:15,000 --> 01:21:20,120
Speaker 4: on Bluebird Bluebird Avenue on July twenty ninth. So that

1402
01:21:20,320 --> 01:21:23,840
Speaker 4: of course is already July twenty ninth to September eighth.

1403
01:21:24,320 --> 01:21:26,280
Speaker 6: That's a long time, and it is.

1404
01:21:26,160 --> 01:21:29,960
Speaker 8: A very long time, particularly in that sweltering Los Angeles

1405
01:21:29,960 --> 01:21:33,160
Speaker 8: heat was right, it was particularly hot. I know, I'm

1406
01:21:33,160 --> 01:21:36,519
Speaker 8: preaching the choir guy, it's particularly hot summer for you guys.

1407
01:21:36,600 --> 01:21:38,680
Speaker 2: And I just think it's impossible that that would have

1408
01:21:38,720 --> 01:21:40,559
Speaker 2: gone so long. Just having worked with you for as

1409
01:21:40,560 --> 01:21:42,840
Speaker 2: long as I have, Joseph, it just seems like that

1410
01:21:42,920 --> 01:21:48,280
Speaker 2: wouldn't fly unless there was another exacerbating condition, maybe like

1411
01:21:48,320 --> 01:21:49,559
Speaker 2: freezing or something.

1412
01:21:50,960 --> 01:21:55,400
Speaker 8: Well, that kind of leads me to this idea of

1413
01:21:55,439 --> 01:21:59,839
Speaker 8: how are we going to get the talks? Okay, now, okay,

1414
01:22:00,760 --> 01:22:03,640
Speaker 8: let's just give me a little rope here, all right.

1415
01:22:03,720 --> 01:22:07,080
Speaker 8: So there are certain areas with decomposing remains that we

1416
01:22:07,200 --> 01:22:10,960
Speaker 8: go to to try to at least get not a

1417
01:22:11,040 --> 01:22:14,080
Speaker 8: quantitative amount, because you can't do it, y'all. You can't

1418
01:22:14,200 --> 01:22:17,200
Speaker 8: apply a number to it because in our world we

1419
01:22:17,720 --> 01:22:21,080
Speaker 8: work on things that are called therapeutic levels. Even heroin

1420
01:22:21,120 --> 01:22:24,120
Speaker 8: has got a therapeutic level if you look in the text. Okay,

1421
01:22:24,360 --> 01:22:26,800
Speaker 8: that means it's still compatible with LFE. If you've got

1422
01:22:26,800 --> 01:22:29,640
Speaker 8: this on board, and drugs have half lives and all

1423
01:22:29,680 --> 01:22:31,720
Speaker 8: that stuff. We can get into that another day if

1424
01:22:31,720 --> 01:22:35,400
Speaker 8: we do a thing on toxicology, however, with yeah, we

1425
01:22:35,400 --> 01:22:40,640
Speaker 8: should with this case if her remains are as compromised

1426
01:22:40,680 --> 01:22:43,639
Speaker 8: as they are saying they are. Here's the regions we're

1427
01:22:43,680 --> 01:22:46,439
Speaker 8: going to go to at the morgue. We're going to

1428
01:22:46,479 --> 01:22:51,439
Speaker 8: go to major muscle groups. Okay, so think by all right,

1429
01:22:51,680 --> 01:22:55,200
Speaker 8: like the quads. You go deep into the quads, you

1430
01:22:55,240 --> 01:22:59,000
Speaker 8: try to retrieve a sample of muscle tissue. From there,

1431
01:22:59,520 --> 01:23:03,599
Speaker 8: you go to the brain. Okay again, forgive me what's

1432
01:23:03,720 --> 01:23:06,960
Speaker 8: left of the brain. Now, surprisingly one of the most

1433
01:23:07,040 --> 01:23:10,120
Speaker 8: resilient organs and by the way, the filthiest organ in

1434
01:23:10,160 --> 01:23:14,040
Speaker 8: the human body deliver You go to the liver, liver

1435
01:23:14,080 --> 01:23:18,800
Speaker 8: holes onto toxins, Okay, we go there and they are

1436
01:23:18,840 --> 01:23:20,840
Speaker 8: a couple of other areas, but those are going to

1437
01:23:20,880 --> 01:23:23,400
Speaker 8: be the primary reading. What do we do with it? Well,

1438
01:23:24,120 --> 01:23:28,080
Speaker 8: we take those samples and we put them in a centrifuge.

1439
01:23:28,400 --> 01:23:30,720
Speaker 8: Everybody knows what a centriuge is. You've ever been to

1440
01:23:30,760 --> 01:23:33,160
Speaker 8: a fair and you've been in the thing that goes

1441
01:23:33,200 --> 01:23:36,160
Speaker 8: around around the floor falls out. That's a centrifuge, all right,

1442
01:23:36,200 --> 01:23:39,439
Speaker 8: So we put these samples in a centrifuge and literally

1443
01:23:39,479 --> 01:23:43,360
Speaker 8: spin them down until they're liquefied. Then we draw them

1444
01:23:43,439 --> 01:23:47,000
Speaker 8: up and we submit it for toxicology. Now, you can

1445
01:23:47,040 --> 01:23:49,559
Speaker 8: find major drug groups in there. You can find opiates,

1446
01:23:49,680 --> 01:23:53,559
Speaker 8: you can find benzos, you can find cocaine, metabolite. I

1447
01:23:53,600 --> 01:23:55,840
Speaker 8: don't know if you can find THCHC. But you can

1448
01:23:55,880 --> 01:23:58,559
Speaker 8: find all of these elements. But still, one of the

1449
01:23:58,600 --> 01:24:03,120
Speaker 8: big nagging questions with the young woman's death, let me

1450
01:24:03,160 --> 01:24:06,120
Speaker 8: rephrase that and say, girl, is was this a drug

1451
01:24:06,120 --> 01:24:09,320
Speaker 8: related thing? Well, y'all, I got to tell you you'll

1452
01:24:09,360 --> 01:24:11,800
Speaker 8: never have that answer. You're not going to be and

1453
01:24:12,040 --> 01:24:14,599
Speaker 8: I hope I'm wrong. I truly hope I'm proven wrong.

1454
01:24:15,439 --> 01:24:19,320
Speaker 8: I can't imagine you would have a quantitative amount because

1455
01:24:19,360 --> 01:24:22,320
Speaker 8: if we have blood, urine, vitreous, bile, all those things

1456
01:24:22,320 --> 01:24:25,679
Speaker 8: that we do on a regular fresh, freshly passed away person,

1457
01:24:26,120 --> 01:24:28,240
Speaker 8: we can get those levels. We can nail it, man.

1458
01:24:28,640 --> 01:24:29,800
Speaker 6: But you're talking about y'all.

1459
01:24:29,880 --> 01:24:33,360
Speaker 8: Y'all have talked about months, man, and if it was

1460
01:24:33,400 --> 01:24:35,519
Speaker 8: a poisoning, there are certain things we can look for

1461
01:24:35,560 --> 01:24:37,640
Speaker 8: in the hair. But you know, we're really kind of

1462
01:24:37,640 --> 01:24:39,280
Speaker 8: out on a limb there because you're talking about things

1463
01:24:39,280 --> 01:24:42,400
Speaker 8: like heavy metals and all those sorts of things. So

1464
01:24:43,640 --> 01:24:45,880
Speaker 8: I don't I don't have a lot of hope for

1465
01:24:45,960 --> 01:24:48,680
Speaker 8: talks here that that was.

1466
01:24:48,600 --> 01:24:50,680
Speaker 2: Going to say. That was my big question. It was

1467
01:24:50,800 --> 01:24:54,040
Speaker 2: in terms of the timeline, even with our hair follicles.

1468
01:24:54,200 --> 01:24:56,320
Speaker 2: I know we've done many cases together where it's very

1469
01:24:56,400 --> 01:24:58,800
Speaker 2: simple to be able to find a full toxicology very

1470
01:24:58,800 --> 01:25:02,240
Speaker 2: clearly regardless of time I'm in this case, it seems

1471
01:25:02,280 --> 01:25:05,280
Speaker 2: like it's gone well beyond the scope or timeline that

1472
01:25:05,360 --> 01:25:08,760
Speaker 2: it typically would to get a toxicology back. I think

1473
01:25:08,800 --> 01:25:11,799
Speaker 2: we've theorized, theorized by the way, this is a theory

1474
01:25:11,840 --> 01:25:16,120
Speaker 2: theory theory, not so allegedly. Maybe there was an incident

1475
01:25:16,160 --> 01:25:19,160
Speaker 2: where Celeste odeed in some way or was slipped a

1476
01:25:19,280 --> 01:25:22,280
Speaker 2: drug and odeed from that, and then everybody in the

1477
01:25:22,280 --> 01:25:25,679
Speaker 2: house panicked, not so similarly to the last case we covered,

1478
01:25:26,080 --> 01:25:28,599
Speaker 2: and in that moment of panic, this is what the

1479
01:25:28,640 --> 01:25:33,080
Speaker 2: next solution becomes to prevent the music tour from being

1480
01:25:33,160 --> 01:25:37,680
Speaker 2: interrupted or for preventing, you know, my buddy David to

1481
01:25:37,760 --> 01:25:40,000
Speaker 2: come down in flames. Maybe he had nothing to do

1482
01:25:40,040 --> 01:25:44,240
Speaker 2: with it, but it's is it true that at this point,

1483
01:25:44,280 --> 01:25:47,719
Speaker 2: based on sort of what little we know about Celeste's body,

1484
01:25:47,960 --> 01:25:50,320
Speaker 2: that we might actually never know the answer to that?

1485
01:25:51,120 --> 01:25:53,639
Speaker 2: And is that why there maybe hasn't been an arrest made.

1486
01:25:53,960 --> 01:25:56,400
Speaker 8: Yeah, I think that that could be be part of

1487
01:25:56,439 --> 01:25:59,720
Speaker 8: the hold up. It's always it almost feels like a

1488
01:26:00,280 --> 01:26:02,240
Speaker 8: in my experience, and I'm just talking about my little

1489
01:26:02,240 --> 01:26:05,120
Speaker 8: selic supple, y'all. I don't encompass the entire world. Everybody

1490
01:26:05,200 --> 01:26:08,479
Speaker 8: has different experiences in the medical legal world. It always

1491
01:26:08,600 --> 01:26:11,240
Speaker 8: kind of felt like fools there. And when I'd get

1492
01:26:11,240 --> 01:26:15,560
Speaker 8: these bodies that are so in an advanced state of decomposition,

1493
01:26:16,040 --> 01:26:18,880
Speaker 8: You're holding your breath, You're hoping you're going to get it,

1494
01:26:18,920 --> 01:26:22,479
Speaker 8: and stuff never comes back in a timely fashion. Stuff

1495
01:26:22,560 --> 01:26:24,880
Speaker 8: rarely comes back and obtain what we think a timely

1496
01:26:24,920 --> 01:26:28,320
Speaker 8: fashion in the fresh dead. How much more so when

1497
01:26:28,360 --> 01:26:30,799
Speaker 8: you've got somebody that's been down for a protracted period

1498
01:26:30,840 --> 01:26:33,200
Speaker 8: of time. I think I would be very curious if

1499
01:26:33,200 --> 01:26:36,479
Speaker 8: the authorities in LA have not asked Quantico to get

1500
01:26:36,560 --> 01:26:40,400
Speaker 8: involved in this and take advantage of their skill set

1501
01:26:40,479 --> 01:26:43,880
Speaker 8: that they have because they deal with cases from all

1502
01:26:43,880 --> 01:26:46,560
Speaker 8: over the USA, they deal with cases.

1503
01:26:46,360 --> 01:26:47,160
Speaker 2: All over the world.

1504
01:26:47,280 --> 01:26:51,600
Speaker 8: If the FBI is involved in it, and look the California,

1505
01:26:51,680 --> 01:26:55,880
Speaker 8: California has quite the resources out there, I just I

1506
01:26:56,200 --> 01:26:59,519
Speaker 8: just don't know, because first off, we ain't heard peep

1507
01:26:59,520 --> 01:27:03,679
Speaker 8: out of them. I don't anticipate here anything out of them, really,

1508
01:27:03,720 --> 01:27:05,679
Speaker 8: anything of substance. You know what I'm saying.

1509
01:27:07,439 --> 01:27:08,240
Speaker 2: This is true crime.

1510
01:27:08,280 --> 01:27:12,720
Speaker 10: Tonight, we are here with Joseph Scott Morgan, forensic expert extraordinaire,

1511
01:27:12,880 --> 01:27:16,840
Speaker 10: and we are discussing the case involving the pop star

1512
01:27:16,960 --> 01:27:21,440
Speaker 10: David and the fourteen year old remains of celest Revas Hernandez.

1513
01:27:21,840 --> 01:27:27,599
Speaker 4: So, speaking back on the Medical Examiner's office, Joseph, there's

1514
01:27:27,640 --> 01:27:32,880
Speaker 4: been this kind of interesting and public back and forth

1515
01:27:33,000 --> 01:27:39,200
Speaker 4: between the police and the Medical Examiner's office. So, speaking

1516
01:27:39,240 --> 01:27:42,800
Speaker 4: to a legal expert earlier this week, his take was.

1517
01:27:42,880 --> 01:27:43,960
Speaker 2: We said, is this unusual?

1518
01:27:44,000 --> 01:27:47,679
Speaker 4: He said yes, especially to publicly air this dirty laundry

1519
01:27:47,760 --> 01:27:49,400
Speaker 4: lack of a better word, and he.

1520
01:27:49,360 --> 01:27:51,799
Speaker 2: Said, kind of the prosecution to stick together.

1521
01:27:52,640 --> 01:27:57,200
Speaker 4: But in your experience, what would make the Medical Examiner's

1522
01:27:57,280 --> 01:28:03,160
Speaker 4: office appear to want to provide information and officers want

1523
01:28:03,320 --> 01:28:06,000
Speaker 4: it not to be released.

1524
01:28:07,200 --> 01:28:11,719
Speaker 8: Because they're scientists? I think is one of the elements

1525
01:28:11,760 --> 01:28:16,360
Speaker 8: to this. They you know, we in science, we have

1526
01:28:16,520 --> 01:28:19,759
Speaker 8: this this need to release information and you know, full

1527
01:28:20,160 --> 01:28:23,360
Speaker 8: full view kind of things. Let's keep in mind, y'all.

1528
01:28:23,920 --> 01:28:26,599
Speaker 8: Maybe they're working this like a homicide. Has anybody been

1529
01:28:26,680 --> 01:28:29,639
Speaker 8: charged with homicide here? They still have yet to declear

1530
01:28:29,720 --> 01:28:34,479
Speaker 8: this a homicide? Correct, So the font from which all

1531
01:28:34,520 --> 01:28:38,920
Speaker 8: of the data should spring is actually the corner. You

1532
01:28:38,960 --> 01:28:43,439
Speaker 8: see what I'm saying, because you know, if you don't

1533
01:28:43,479 --> 01:28:46,840
Speaker 8: have enough information to call this a homicide, and I

1534
01:28:46,840 --> 01:28:49,200
Speaker 8: know I'll get pushedback on this, but you just look

1535
01:28:49,240 --> 01:28:52,719
Speaker 8: at it from a reality standpoint. Are the police involved

1536
01:28:52,720 --> 01:28:55,479
Speaker 8: in this sense? Just think about it, because the police

1537
01:28:55,479 --> 01:28:59,080
Speaker 8: do not make a ruling of a manner of death

1538
01:28:59,360 --> 01:29:02,000
Speaker 8: or manner you know, one of the five manners. They're

1539
01:29:02,000 --> 01:29:05,479
Speaker 8: the ones that and many times the medical legal world

1540
01:29:05,560 --> 01:29:08,200
Speaker 8: will run contrary to what the police do. You know,

1541
01:29:08,280 --> 01:29:11,080
Speaker 8: this happens a lot. I've been in not fights, but

1542
01:29:11,120 --> 01:29:14,400
Speaker 8: you know what I'm saying, you go, it's a conflict model,

1543
01:29:14,920 --> 01:29:17,479
Speaker 8: you know, kind of like court. We have our interests

1544
01:29:17,479 --> 01:29:21,439
Speaker 8: are completely different than those of the cops. You know,

1545
01:29:21,520 --> 01:29:24,479
Speaker 8: the cops have not moved forward with this as a

1546
01:29:24,600 --> 01:29:28,280
Speaker 8: standard homicide investigation. They have to have something to hang

1547
01:29:28,360 --> 01:29:32,400
Speaker 8: their proverbial hats on here, and to this point, apparently

1548
01:29:32,439 --> 01:29:37,920
Speaker 8: the slash corner has not provided that. So right now

1549
01:29:38,080 --> 01:29:43,519
Speaker 8: the ball is literally in the court of the coroner's office,

1550
01:29:43,600 --> 01:29:49,240
Speaker 8: unless somebody associated with this young man rolls over and

1551
01:29:49,320 --> 01:29:51,840
Speaker 8: has an epistomal moment, as we say down here in

1552
01:29:51,880 --> 01:29:55,080
Speaker 8: the South, come to Jesus moment and wants to say,

1553
01:29:55,160 --> 01:29:59,000
Speaker 8: you know, this is what happened. That ain't happening to

1554
01:29:59,040 --> 01:30:01,400
Speaker 8: this point, I have it's seen it. I mean, maybe

1555
01:30:01,439 --> 01:30:02,840
Speaker 8: it'll just shocking.

1556
01:30:03,120 --> 01:30:06,360
Speaker 2: It's shocking. It's shocking that either nobody is screaming from

1557
01:30:06,400 --> 01:30:10,120
Speaker 2: the rooftops. Help there's an active killer out there who

1558
01:30:10,160 --> 01:30:13,880
Speaker 2: took my you know, fan or friend, Celeste, you know,

1559
01:30:13,920 --> 01:30:17,599
Speaker 2: Revis Ernandez's life. If I'm David the pop star, help

1560
01:30:17,680 --> 01:30:21,000
Speaker 2: help help find the person who did this, Nor has

1561
01:30:21,080 --> 01:30:24,200
Speaker 2: anybody turned on each other. And we've all been in

1562
01:30:24,240 --> 01:30:27,559
Speaker 2: this for way too long. That's rare. Usually a couple

1563
01:30:27,600 --> 01:30:30,360
Speaker 2: of months in somebody's looking at a lot of jail time,

1564
01:30:30,560 --> 01:30:34,880
Speaker 2: they're feeling a little less cozy about who they're, you know,

1565
01:30:35,520 --> 01:30:38,559
Speaker 2: taking a hit for dare I say? And we haven't

1566
01:30:38,600 --> 01:30:40,920
Speaker 2: seen that yet, So this becomes one of those cases

1567
01:30:40,920 --> 01:30:42,360
Speaker 2: that is so incredibly confusing.

1568
01:30:43,520 --> 01:30:46,960
Speaker 8: Yeah, there's no substante point of leverage here. And may

1569
01:30:46,960 --> 01:30:50,639
Speaker 8: I harken back to the Pikedon massacre. Yes, we think

1570
01:30:50,680 --> 01:30:51,000
Speaker 8: about that.

1571
01:30:51,680 --> 01:30:54,719
Speaker 2: They were at least related. They were related, which will

1572
01:30:54,760 --> 01:30:58,200
Speaker 2: may be different than your friends that are you know,

1573
01:30:58,240 --> 01:31:01,639
Speaker 2: your hanger on her crew that are partying at your

1574
01:31:01,920 --> 01:31:05,680
Speaker 2: Hollywood Hills house for twenty thousand dollars a month. You

1575
01:31:05,720 --> 01:31:08,160
Speaker 2: would think maybe one of them would turn coat.

1576
01:31:08,640 --> 01:31:11,040
Speaker 8: Yeah, but in Pikdin you had a point of pressure

1577
01:31:11,080 --> 01:31:14,080
Speaker 8: there and apparently that doesn't exist at this point. At

1578
01:31:14,160 --> 01:31:17,200
Speaker 8: least they're not showing their cards. I got to tell you, y'all,

1579
01:31:17,320 --> 01:31:21,160
Speaker 8: I have yet cover caase like this where there has

1580
01:31:21,200 --> 01:31:25,559
Speaker 8: been like a total shutdown of data that's been released.

1581
01:31:27,000 --> 01:31:29,760
Speaker 2: And listen, we have loved having you. I hate to

1582
01:31:29,760 --> 01:31:33,760
Speaker 2: do the fastest wrap up ever, Joseph, but body for

1583
01:31:33,800 --> 01:31:36,719
Speaker 2: sure wants to talk about the Luigi Mangione ghost gun.

1584
01:31:36,920 --> 01:31:39,439
Speaker 2: So in the coming days we'll unpack that as well

1585
01:31:39,600 --> 01:31:42,479
Speaker 2: and listen anyone listening, We hope you have a beautiful

1586
01:31:42,520 --> 01:31:44,720
Speaker 2: start to the week. Here's to Monday, Let's do it.

1587
01:31:45,160 --> 01:31:47,599
Speaker 2: Thank you for listening. We will be back with breaking

1588
01:31:47,640 --> 01:31:50,840
Speaker 2: news tomorrow as well, so so much more of this

1589
01:31:50,920 --> 01:31:54,439
Speaker 2: to come, Joseph Scott Morgan body Bags, make sure you

1590
01:31:54,560 --> 01:31:57,160
Speaker 2: check it out. Thank you for listening to True Crime tonight.

1591
01:31:57,320 --> 01:32:00,880
Speaker 2: Coritney Taha and I and Joseph, we love you and

1592
01:32:00,920 --> 01:32:03,639
Speaker 2: we've loved spending the evening with you. We'll catch you tomorrow.

1593
01:32:04,439 --> 01:32:04,479
Speaker 2: A