1 00:00:03,920 --> 00:00:08,200 Speaker 1: Hey there, I'm Ed Helms, and this is Snafu Season three, 2 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:13,119 Speaker 1: Formula six. How prohibitions war on alcohol went so off 3 00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:17,599 Speaker 1: the rails the government wound up poisoning its own people. 4 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:20,520 Speaker 1: This is a bonus episode, and as you may recall, 5 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 1: I like to bring in guests for these bonus episodes 6 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:28,360 Speaker 1: and try to learn something a little bit new or 7 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:32,199 Speaker 1: different about the subject. So we know prohibition was obviously 8 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 1: a colossal government snafo and a fascinating story in its 9 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:40,000 Speaker 1: own right. But what are the nitty gritty lessons or 10 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 1: insights we can walk away with this season? I wanted 11 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:46,120 Speaker 1: to talk to someone who could help us zoom out, 12 00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:50,520 Speaker 1: someone who thinks deeply about how power, corruption, and unintended 13 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:53,040 Speaker 1: consequences shape our world. 14 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:54,240 Speaker 2: So I called up. 15 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 1: Josh Graham Linn, the co founder of represent Us, an 16 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 1: organization dedicated to fighting political corruption and making our democracy 17 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:08,839 Speaker 1: work better unlike say, a democracy that poisons its own citizens. 18 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:12,360 Speaker 1: Josh helped us dig into big questions that inform our 19 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 1: understanding not only a Formula six but also it's lingering 20 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:20,160 Speaker 1: echoes into the present. How do we break free of 21 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:24,120 Speaker 1: political influence and lobbyists? How do we bring power back 22 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:27,959 Speaker 1: to voters and ultimately, how do we strengthen democracy for 23 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 1: future generations. Turns out the tangled mess of bad decisions 24 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:37,360 Speaker 1: behind prohibition isn't just a history lesson, it's a warning. 25 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:44,480 Speaker 1: So here it is my fascinating conversation with Josh Graham Lin. Hello, 26 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 1: Josh Graham LN. 27 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 3: Hello Ed Heckenweiler helms close. 28 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 1: Well, Hey, so I'm so excited to have you on 29 00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 1: our SNAPO podcast, and I'm just going to throw a 30 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:03,600 Speaker 1: couple of disclaimer slash context bits out there. 31 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 2: First. 32 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:07,680 Speaker 1: The first disclaimer is that I know you very well 33 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 1: and I don't like you at all. No, that's not true. 34 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:14,480 Speaker 1: We're very good friends. You are a very good friend 35 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 1: of mine, and the reason we know each other well 36 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:21,799 Speaker 1: is because you run an organization called represent Us, and 37 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:25,600 Speaker 1: I have been very active with that organization because I 38 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:30,200 Speaker 1: really believe in its mission. So with that out of 39 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:33,639 Speaker 1: the way, tell us a little bit about represent Us 40 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:37,200 Speaker 1: and your involvement, how it got started and how you 41 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:37,920 Speaker 1: got roped in. 42 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 3: Well, what a nice introduction. 43 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:42,360 Speaker 4: I thought it was going to be some scary disclaimer, 44 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 4: but the fact that we're friends and buddies I think 45 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 4: makes it all the better. Right, So, represent us is 46 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 4: pretty straightforward. The idea here is that the American government 47 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 4: should work an answer, to work for an answer to 48 00:02:55,280 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 4: the American people out ages. It's just it's a foreign. 49 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 2: Thought, right. 50 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:05,080 Speaker 4: Because of the influence of big money and special interests 51 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:07,600 Speaker 4: and the two political parties that we have in their 52 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 4: grip on the system, the American government does not work 53 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:13,920 Speaker 4: for the American people. And so represent us is all 54 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 4: about building a movement of folks from across the political 55 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:18,560 Speaker 4: spectrum to make the government work for we the people. 56 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 4: And we do that by going city by city, state 57 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 4: by state across the country, passing laws that actually make 58 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:26,240 Speaker 4: the government answer to the people. 59 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:28,560 Speaker 2: Right on, right on. 60 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:31,639 Speaker 1: Yeah, every time I hear that, I just get all 61 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 1: excited about Reporence. 62 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 3: I never get tired of saying it. 63 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:36,800 Speaker 4: It's one of those it's like saying to somebody like hey, 64 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 4: do you want free candy, or like yeah, It's like 65 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:39,920 Speaker 4: everybody likes it. 66 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 1: And I think there is just a very pervasive sense 67 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:47,080 Speaker 1: in America right now that things are feeling a little broken. 68 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:49,880 Speaker 1: No matter what side you're on, if your team won 69 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 1: or your team loss, there's still this sense that like, well, 70 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 1: still a lot of people are feeling kind of screwed 71 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 1: and unheard. And that's really what represent us is trying 72 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 1: to fix. How did it get started? What's kind of 73 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 1: the origin story. 74 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:06,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, so it's interesting to hear you say people feel 75 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 4: like the government isn't working for them. 76 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 3: That's we know, that's true. Lots of people feel that way. 77 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 4: I think what a lot of people don't know is 78 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:16,480 Speaker 4: that scientific studies, one after the other. 79 00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:19,200 Speaker 3: After the other, prove that to be true. 80 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:21,680 Speaker 4: So in the aftermath of Citizens United, which was in 81 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:24,279 Speaker 4: twenty twelve, and for those who don't know, Citizens United 82 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 4: is a Supreme Court ruling that essentially said that special interests, corporations, 83 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 4: private entities can spend almost unlimited amounts of money to 84 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:38,160 Speaker 4: make political contributions aka by politicians and elections. 85 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:42,359 Speaker 1: And this is because political donations are considered a form 86 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 1: of speech under free speech. 87 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:47,520 Speaker 4: And I don't want to make everybody go to sleep, 88 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:50,600 Speaker 4: But like, there's other Supreme Court rulings like Speech Now 89 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:52,000 Speaker 4: that had to do with all this. But the short 90 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:54,920 Speaker 4: version is we call it Citizens United a bunch of 91 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:58,120 Speaker 4: rulings that stick together. And in the wake of that ruling, 92 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 4: it was very clear that the influence of money in 93 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 4: politics was going to get out of control quickly, and 94 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:06,599 Speaker 4: as a result of that, we thought, well, if the 95 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 4: system is captured by big money, we the people are 96 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:11,360 Speaker 4: probably going to lose faith in our institutions and the 97 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 4: whole thing may start to crumble. And that was back 98 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:17,800 Speaker 4: in twenty twelve, and I would say that a lot 99 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:19,960 Speaker 4: of the fears that we had have started to ring 100 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:23,840 Speaker 4: true where political spending has gotten out of control. This 101 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:26,559 Speaker 4: was once again the most expensive election we've ever seen, 102 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 4: and the one thing that hasn't changed in all those 103 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 4: twelve years is that big money still has a death 104 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:33,320 Speaker 4: grip on the system and we the people are paying 105 00:05:33,320 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 4: the price for it. 106 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:38,200 Speaker 1: So why are we talking to you in the context 107 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:41,719 Speaker 1: of season three of Snaffoo, which is all about early 108 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 1: twentieth century Prohibition. Well, it's one of the first big 109 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 1: sort of conflagrations of values in twentieth century America. Of course, 110 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 1: culture wars go back centuries, and before we go further, 111 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:55,039 Speaker 1: I kind of want to I think it'd be cool 112 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:59,520 Speaker 1: to actually read a definition of culture war, because Wikipedia 113 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:02,600 Speaker 1: some up quite nicely. So a culture war is a 114 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:08,040 Speaker 1: form of cultural conflict, a metaphorical war between different social 115 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:13,640 Speaker 1: groups who struggle to politically impose their own ideology, moral beliefs, 116 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:19,360 Speaker 1: humane virtues, religious practices, etc. Upon mainstream society or upon 117 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:22,160 Speaker 1: the other. In political usage, the term culture war is 118 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 1: a metaphor for hot button politics about values and ideologies 119 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:33,000 Speaker 1: realized with intentionally adversarial social narratives meant to provoke political 120 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 1: polarization among the mainstream of society over economic matters of 121 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 1: public policy and of consumption. So one of the really 122 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 1: interesting things about culture wars and prohibition is a perfect 123 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:52,240 Speaker 1: example of this is how laws get passed with very 124 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 1: little actual support from the general public. So in the 125 00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:00,679 Speaker 1: early twentieth century we had organizations like the Women's Christian 126 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:03,240 Speaker 1: Temperance Union in the Anti Saloon League, and they made 127 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:05,159 Speaker 1: a lot of noise, and they also preyed upon a 128 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 1: lot of broader cultural fears, associating alcohol and drunkenness with 129 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 1: immigrants and big cities and crime. Temperance, on the other hand, 130 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 1: was portrayed as an expression of the sort of pure 131 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 1: and lily white, lovely, small town, old fashioned American values. 132 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 1: But even so, broadly speaking, the general population did not 133 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 1: support a national ban on alcohol at all, and yet 134 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 1: it passed. So this is where I'm getting back to 135 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 1: where you were starting to jump to in the beginning. 136 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 1: You often talk about a famous Princeton study that demonstrates 137 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 1: this phenomenon. Tell us about that study and some of 138 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 1: its real world implications in contemporary policy. 139 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:56,120 Speaker 4: Yeah. So it's just fascinating to me as we sit 140 00:07:56,120 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 4: here and talk about this, that prohibition has become such 141 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:04,280 Speaker 4: a pivotal moment in the American story, the American history. Like, 142 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 4: I love that you're doing a whole season on this. 143 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 4: So the Princeton University study that you're referencing, without being 144 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 4: able to show the graphics for it, it might be 145 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 4: a little hard to visualize. But the upshot is that 146 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 4: the folks at Princeton, they worked with Northeastern. They found 147 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 4: that the American people, average American income earners, amongst American people, 148 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:31,560 Speaker 4: appear to have a minuscule, near zero, statistically non significant 149 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:35,960 Speaker 4: impact upon public policy. I will summarize that again. The 150 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 4: American people heard that zero impact on public policy. 151 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 1: It's literally the opposite of what we all think and 152 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 1: it's and it's the opposite of how we think our 153 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:49,720 Speaker 1: government was structured to work. 154 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:51,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, right, it's nuts. 155 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:53,679 Speaker 4: So the way they figured this out is They looked 156 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:57,240 Speaker 4: at public opinion polls over a twenty year period, so 157 00:08:57,280 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 4: there's a longitudinal study of twenty years of looking at 158 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:03,160 Speaker 4: public opinion polls. And they compared those public opinion polls 159 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 4: to the laws that Congress did or didn't pass. And again, 160 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:09,560 Speaker 4: the upshot of that is that for the average American 161 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 4: income earner, there's zero impact at all. Now, when they 162 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 4: looked at the same data for folks who can afford 163 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:18,240 Speaker 4: lobbyists and those and sort of the higher echelons the 164 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:22,080 Speaker 4: control government, they found that there wasn't a direct correlation. 165 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:26,959 Speaker 4: But if those special interest groups didn't like something, they 166 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:28,840 Speaker 4: had almost a total ability to block it. 167 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 3: So if they didn't want it wouldn't happen. 168 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 1: What are some contemporary policy examples of this of how 169 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 1: this is taking effect? 170 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:39,440 Speaker 4: Yea, I think there's a lot, actually, and some of 171 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 4: them are very, you know, very It's arguably every policy. 172 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:44,679 Speaker 3: Really, I mean, it really is. 173 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:48,079 Speaker 4: So we'll start with the easy ones, right, like economic policy. 174 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 4: Like most Americans when they think about how economic distribution 175 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 4: should happen, it's actually nowhere near what economic distribution really 176 00:09:56,640 --> 00:09:59,680 Speaker 4: looks like. Our inequality in this country is a thousand 177 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:01,959 Speaker 4: fold worse than most people think. 178 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 3: So that's kind of an. 179 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:05,560 Speaker 4: Easy issue for us all to agree on. And then 180 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 4: there's the harder ones like guns and abortion. Sure, and 181 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 4: the truth is most of the American people want common 182 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:15,079 Speaker 4: sense solutions that are best for the most of us 183 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 4: on these issues, and instead what we get are, as 184 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:22,880 Speaker 4: you said, ideological hot button divisive rhetoric and then divisive 185 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:25,840 Speaker 4: policy getting passed. And part of the reason for that 186 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:28,600 Speaker 4: is that it's actually better for those in power to 187 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 4: have arguments about policy. It helps them fundraise in their elections, 188 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:37,440 Speaker 4: It actually helps drive the political industrial complex forward. 189 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 1: And it is so interesting that so much of what 190 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 1: we hear surrounding these issues is triggering, right, And that's intentional. 191 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 1: It's just trying to get emotional responses out of us 192 00:10:52,120 --> 00:11:00,960 Speaker 1: because that clouds our judgment. And also that, like creating 193 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 1: more polarization and adversarial dispositions among the general population, makes 194 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 1: it easier to control the general population. 195 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:13,080 Speaker 4: I think there is a truth that for many on 196 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 4: some of these issues, it's not just the rhetoric, right, 197 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 4: like that when we talk about guns in abortion, there's 198 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:20,800 Speaker 4: a real world implication there. And so I don't want 199 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:23,080 Speaker 4: to minimize like it's not just about the rhetoric, right, 200 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:25,760 Speaker 4: It's not just that we are talking about it in 201 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:28,320 Speaker 4: an inflammatory way. It actually has a very real impact 202 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:31,560 Speaker 4: on people's lives. I think, where when we're talking about 203 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 4: the government working on behalf of the people, it's the 204 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 4: fact that the laws that get passed and the way 205 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:40,360 Speaker 4: that government operates is actually wildly out of step with 206 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:43,320 Speaker 4: what most of us would consider reasonable or common sense. 207 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 4: And we never have that conversation, like because that's the 208 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:49,400 Speaker 4: conversation that gets lost in the nuance, because it doesn't 209 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 4: get people fired up, it's not hot button, it doesn't 210 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:55,319 Speaker 4: fuel the culture war, right, And so I think both 211 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 4: of those things can be true, Like, on one hand, 212 00:11:57,280 --> 00:11:59,560 Speaker 4: this has real world implications on a lot of people's lives, 213 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 4: and on the other hand, we could get a lot 214 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 4: better at talking about it through a political lens without 215 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 4: getting so fired up about the personal impact. It's like, 216 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 4: the ability to hold both of those things could get 217 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:14,160 Speaker 4: us much better outcomes if only our government were designed 218 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:14,560 Speaker 4: to do so. 219 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:15,559 Speaker 3: And it's just not. 220 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:20,320 Speaker 2: Okay. 221 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:25,720 Speaker 1: So we've established that public policy as it is generated 222 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 1: by Congress has a statistically non existent connection to the 223 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:38,080 Speaker 1: desires of the public. Why what are the primary. What 224 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:39,680 Speaker 1: are sort of the underpinning reasons for that? 225 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:43,720 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean the simplest answer is follow the money. Right, 226 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 4: Running for office costs a lot of money, and so 227 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:50,760 Speaker 4: in order to win office, you have to have a 228 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:52,960 Speaker 4: big pot of money to spend. And where do you 229 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:55,720 Speaker 4: go get that money? Well, you can fundraise from lots 230 00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:58,640 Speaker 4: of five dollars donations, which some people do, or you 231 00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 4: can go to special interests and the people who have 232 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:04,959 Speaker 4: lots of money and ask for big chunks at a time. 233 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 4: And that's actually a lot more efficient, right that you 234 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:08,720 Speaker 4: can raise a lot more money a lot more quickly 235 00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 4: if you get it in big chunks. And I think 236 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 4: everybody kind of knows that part of it. But part 237 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:16,880 Speaker 4: of what people don't know is that both the Democratic 238 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 4: Party and the Republican Party also do a ton of 239 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:24,880 Speaker 4: fundraising that they then spend on elections. And when you're 240 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 4: in Congress, let's say you want to move a bill forward. 241 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 4: You have a great idea, you want to move it forward. 242 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:31,319 Speaker 4: In order to move that bill forward, you have to 243 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:33,199 Speaker 4: be on a committee that works on that kind of thing. 244 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 4: So in order to get on a committee, you actually 245 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 4: have to fundraise for your political party. That's how committee 246 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:42,760 Speaker 4: appointments end up working. But if you really want to 247 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:45,000 Speaker 4: move something forward, if you want to have control over 248 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:47,560 Speaker 4: whether or not the committee moves your wonderful idea to 249 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 4: the floor of Congress, you have to be the committee chair. 250 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:52,720 Speaker 4: And so in order to be the committee chair, you 251 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:55,079 Speaker 4: might have to fundraise another two hundred and fifty thousand 252 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 4: dollars on top of what you've already fundraised to get 253 00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:00,560 Speaker 4: into office, to get into the committee. That is not 254 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 4: like a maybe thing. That's actually how committee appointments work. 255 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 4: There are fundraising goals that are put in place. The 256 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:09,600 Speaker 4: New York Times recently did this incredible exit interview with 257 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:12,120 Speaker 4: a whole bunch of people leaving Congress, and they just 258 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:14,240 Speaker 4: talked about this. They were like, that's how it works. 259 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 4: It's business as usual, and it's so corrupt. Right, it's 260 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 4: corrupt and legal. Right, it's corrupt and baked into the 261 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 4: system that we have. By some accounts, members of Congress 262 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 4: when they get into office have to spend up to 263 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 4: seventy percent of their time fundraising for reelection. And I 264 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 4: don't want to paint a picture that these are bad people. 265 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 4: It's just that's the reality of the system. So it 266 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:43,960 Speaker 4: could be ed Helm's runs for Congress and contrary to 267 00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 4: popular belief, is a really good guy who wants to 268 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:47,160 Speaker 4: do really good things. 269 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 3: And yet you. 270 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:51,000 Speaker 4: Can't do good things because you have to spend your 271 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 4: time fundraising if you want to do those good things. 272 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:56,840 Speaker 4: And so it's a trap. And like all systems, this 273 00:14:56,880 --> 00:14:58,160 Speaker 4: one exists to protect itself. 274 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 2: And it feels like it's such a cliche to say, 275 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:03,360 Speaker 2: like it's the system. 276 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:06,720 Speaker 1: We're going to put the system on trial, but that 277 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 1: kind of is the deal, Like that's exactly. 278 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 2: What we're dealing with. 279 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 1: It's with our political system right now. 280 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 3: It's totally the deal. 281 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 4: And you know, unfortunately, most of us don't think that 282 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:19,640 Speaker 4: it's our job to change that system. 283 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 2: It is. It's up to us, you and me, Josh. 284 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:25,920 Speaker 4: That has to be Yeah, most of the two of 285 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:27,600 Speaker 4: us that are here do think it's our job to 286 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 4: change that system. 287 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 1: There are a lot of reasons that we feel polarized 288 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 1: as a country right now, and you know, we can 289 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 1: point to the obvious wedge issues. We can point to 290 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:43,800 Speaker 1: the information silos, the social media and all of these things, 291 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 1: and those are very real. And there, you know, are 292 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 1: cable news, which is very corporate and cynical, and these 293 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:54,440 Speaker 1: are very real factors, but there are also a number 294 00:15:54,520 --> 00:16:01,760 Speaker 1: of structural factors that are wedging us, things built into 295 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 1: the political system, engineered to polarize us even further. And 296 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 1: I wonder if you can talk a little bit more 297 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 1: about those more structural issues. 298 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 3: Yeah. Sure. I think very often. 299 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 4: It's so easy to point to the media environment, and 300 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 4: of course we should, because it's a huge part of 301 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 4: the problem, but it's not the whole problem, and it 302 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:27,760 Speaker 4: is getting to this other piece that we don't think of. 303 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 4: You just started talking about it our primary system or jerrymandering, 304 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 4: So we'll start with jerrymandering. I think most people know 305 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:37,240 Speaker 4: the word jerrymandering at this point, and they understand that 306 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 4: it's bad because it cuts people out of elections that 307 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:42,480 Speaker 4: they should otherwise be able to vote in. And the 308 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:47,200 Speaker 4: problem with jerrymandering is that in some eighty seven percent 309 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 4: of racists for the US House, we already know which 310 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:52,640 Speaker 4: party is going to win the election before it even starts, 311 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 4: because the districts have been drawn to protect the party 312 00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 4: that's already in power. And the reason that that happens 313 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 4: is that when you're part of wins elections, you get 314 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 4: to be the one to redraw the district for the 315 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:06,240 Speaker 4: next election. It would be like a Super Bowl winning 316 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:08,240 Speaker 4: football team getting to set all of the rules for 317 00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:12,480 Speaker 4: the coming season to favor themselves. This is politics, not 318 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 4: a game. But like, you can see how it happens 319 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:18,640 Speaker 4: if instead of having politicians draw district lines, you gave 320 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:22,440 Speaker 4: the power to let's say, voters from across the political spectrum. 321 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 4: I'm using a number that is real. Here in the 322 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 4: state of Michigan and also in Washington, they use nine Democrats, 323 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 4: nine Republicans, and nine independents overseen by judges following rules 324 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:35,159 Speaker 4: to draw their new maps, and as a result, they 325 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 4: draw districts that are much more competitive, much more fair, 326 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 4: much more reflective of the population. 327 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:43,400 Speaker 1: You said, much more competitive. What are the numbers on 328 00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:50,919 Speaker 1: how jerry mandering has affected the competitiveness of congressional elections. 329 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 4: Yeah, so this year the number might have been eighty 330 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 4: three percent, but it's always between eighty three and eighty 331 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:58,520 Speaker 4: seven percent of congressional elections have no competition at all. 332 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:00,920 Speaker 4: And that's kind of an abstract concept, right, Like, what 333 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:05,360 Speaker 4: does that even mean? No competition? And it's in the 334 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:09,879 Speaker 4: primaries we get to vote for. Like, if you're a Democrat, 335 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:11,720 Speaker 4: you vote for Democrats. If you're a Republican, you vote 336 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 4: for Republicans. I'll come back to that in a second. 337 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:17,680 Speaker 4: If you have a Gerrymander district where you know the 338 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:20,960 Speaker 4: Democrat is going to win, then all the only thing 339 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 4: that matters is that primary. And then by the time 340 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:25,359 Speaker 4: you get to the general election, yes, sure there's a 341 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:28,120 Speaker 4: Democrat and a Republican voting, but the districts have been 342 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 4: cut up in such a way that only the Democrat 343 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:32,640 Speaker 4: can win in that district. And of course the same 344 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:34,280 Speaker 4: thing happens on the other side too. I'm just ticking 345 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 4: on Democrats here, So let's just talk about primaries for 346 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:38,600 Speaker 4: one second. 347 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:41,560 Speaker 1: Well, I I just want to put an exclamation point 348 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:45,240 Speaker 1: on that because it still blows my mind. Over eighty 349 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:52,440 Speaker 1: percent of congressional elections are non competitive, right, And what 350 00:18:52,520 --> 00:19:00,720 Speaker 1: that means fundamentally is that they aren't really elections, Like 351 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 1: they're not they're just kind of a rubber stamping ritual, 352 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:11,359 Speaker 1: a process, a kind of like a quaint nod to 353 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 1: the past, but it isn't it's not an actual election. 354 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 4: Well, and the result of that is that we as 355 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:22,159 Speaker 4: the people don't actually have the power to hold politicians 356 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:26,160 Speaker 4: accountable because there's no threat for them. They get into 357 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:27,800 Speaker 4: power and they know they're going to be able to 358 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:30,359 Speaker 4: keep their power. Even though it feels like we might 359 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:31,359 Speaker 4: be able to vote them out. 360 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:34,680 Speaker 1: We're actually can dance. We were doing the song and 361 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:37,960 Speaker 1: dance of putting a Republican and a Democrat against each other. 362 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:41,280 Speaker 1: But eighty percent of districts one will always win. 363 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:42,120 Speaker 3: Yep. 364 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:46,440 Speaker 4: And so you asked before about like the divisiveness of this, 365 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:50,800 Speaker 4: What ends up happening is that because there's no competition 366 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 4: in the general election, the primary election is actually where 367 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:57,879 Speaker 4: we choose the candidate who's ultimately going to go on 368 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 4: to win. And in the primaries you only have Republicans 369 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:05,760 Speaker 4: running against Republicans and Democrats running against Democrats. And we've 370 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:08,320 Speaker 4: all heard the term like so and so got primaried 371 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 4: and so they lost. And that's because in the primaries 372 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 4: there's a much narrower group of voters who are voting, 373 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:17,879 Speaker 4: and so the party tends to be more extreme with 374 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:21,800 Speaker 4: their rhetoric, tends to elect more extreme candidates because you've 375 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 4: got such a narrow amount of voters making their voices heard, 376 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:27,359 Speaker 4: and just to put that in numbers. What ends up 377 00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:30,200 Speaker 4: happening is that five to eight percent of total voters 378 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:33,400 Speaker 4: in any given place end up choosing the candidate who's 379 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:36,360 Speaker 4: going to ultimately win, which is again it's like, it's 380 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:39,240 Speaker 4: crazy to think about five to eight percent of voters 381 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:42,639 Speaker 4: choosing the candidate who then breezes through the general election 382 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:43,879 Speaker 4: and wins. 383 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:48,600 Speaker 1: And we know that generally the voters that participate in 384 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:54,160 Speaker 1: primaries are the most sort of extreme voters of that group. Yeah, 385 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:56,200 Speaker 1: it's the party base, right, We've all heard that term 386 00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 1: a thousand times, Right, they've got to play to their 387 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:00,960 Speaker 1: base voters. Those are the base voters ones that show up. 388 00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:04,480 Speaker 1: And this is why we see so many politicians emerge 389 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:07,160 Speaker 1: that everyone's kind of shaking their heads, like how did 390 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 1: this guy get nominated? How did this how did this 391 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:13,400 Speaker 1: lady get there? Like that seems crazy. Well, it's because 392 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:19,720 Speaker 1: like the most hardcore, fervent partisans are the ones nominating 393 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 1: those people. 394 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:23,200 Speaker 4: So you brought up before this sort of question about 395 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:28,479 Speaker 4: the media environment. Yeah, and I I still think it 396 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:31,639 Speaker 4: can be hard to visualize really, like why is it 397 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:34,240 Speaker 4: that this structural or systemic problem. 398 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:35,320 Speaker 3: That we were just talking about leads to. 399 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:38,399 Speaker 4: The extremism because it's still right, like, can't the media 400 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 4: just shut that down? Can't we just like, isn't it 401 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 4: all a social media problem? And so just a thought experiment, like, 402 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:48,720 Speaker 4: imagine if the majority of Congress and the Senate and 403 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:51,720 Speaker 4: the Presidency were filled with people that had won in 404 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:53,960 Speaker 4: really competitive elections where they had to answer to a 405 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:57,160 Speaker 4: majority of voters across the country. They would be talking 406 00:21:57,160 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 4: to Democrats and Republicans and independent because in order to 407 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 4: get beyond fifty percent a majority, you have to do that. Now, 408 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:07,119 Speaker 4: you put any random congress person on the news, and 409 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:10,440 Speaker 4: instead of saying crazy stuff about the other side, you've 410 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:14,480 Speaker 4: got someone in there who is actually a rational, thoughtful 411 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 4: I don't even wanted to use the term moderate, because 412 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:19,480 Speaker 4: it's not about moderating the politics. It's just about being 413 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:22,400 Speaker 4: representative of the people who are supposed to put you there. 414 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:25,280 Speaker 4: And so you would be putting people into the media 415 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:30,160 Speaker 4: who have enormous megaphones, who really do define our culture, 416 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:33,359 Speaker 4: like our politicians tell us how to be very often. 417 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:38,159 Speaker 4: And so the power of changing the system way upstream 418 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:43,280 Speaker 4: primaries jerrymandering is that you elect people who then become 419 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:47,240 Speaker 4: spokespeople for our culture. And reflect back to us something 420 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:50,160 Speaker 4: that's much more positive, much more nuanced, and much more thoughtful. 421 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 4: And I think that gets lost in this conversation. 422 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:57,240 Speaker 1: Somehow You're saying that more level headed people will reach 423 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 1: higher levels of government, and they will be the mouthpieces 424 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:08,160 Speaker 1: that we see on the media, and that more measured 425 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:13,320 Speaker 1: kind of dialogue will have a cultural impact on all 426 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:13,600 Speaker 1: of us. 427 00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:14,400 Speaker 3: Absolutely. 428 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:17,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, And I'll just add one thing to it, which is, 429 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 4: like we already established in our conversation about primaries and gerrymandering, 430 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 4: that end it with money in politics, like the incentive 431 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:28,560 Speaker 4: if you're running for office, you are incentivized to be 432 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:31,119 Speaker 4: more radical because that's how you win. You are incentivized 433 00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 4: to be a better fundraiser. 434 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:32,960 Speaker 3: Because that's how you win. 435 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:37,159 Speaker 4: If you change those structures so that you are incentivized 436 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:41,040 Speaker 4: to be more responsive to the people, less of an egomaniac, 437 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:47,000 Speaker 4: more more interested in representing a diverse coalition of voters, 438 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:50,080 Speaker 4: if that's the incentive that actually helps you win office, 439 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 4: then you will likely elect people who fit that description. 440 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 2: How do you change those incentives? 441 00:23:56,920 --> 00:24:00,119 Speaker 3: It's really easy. I can't believe we haven't done it already. 442 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:04,080 Speaker 3: So it comes down to policy. 443 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 4: I like to just boil it down to the simplest 444 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:09,240 Speaker 4: language that I know, which is like, you just have 445 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:11,720 Speaker 4: to change the rules of the system that we're in. 446 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,120 Speaker 4: So we talked about the rules, rules like who gets 447 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:18,639 Speaker 4: to draw district maps? In order to fix jerrymander and 448 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:21,880 Speaker 4: you give the power to voters instead of politicians. Now 449 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:24,800 Speaker 4: you have voters drawing maps that are more representative. And 450 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:27,000 Speaker 4: this already happens across the country in a few states, 451 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:28,640 Speaker 4: and they do work better. 452 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:32,320 Speaker 2: And when you say voters, commission of jury duty. 453 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:34,480 Speaker 4: Right, So you know jury duty, you get called in 454 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:36,639 Speaker 4: and you said, on a jury This is similar in 455 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:40,320 Speaker 4: that you join a commission that is responsible for drawing 456 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:41,840 Speaker 4: those district maps, right. 457 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:44,480 Speaker 2: And that's one of those things like. 458 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:50,360 Speaker 1: That is such a no brainer, right, And yet we're 459 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:54,719 Speaker 1: in this feedback loop where the people that are making 460 00:24:54,800 --> 00:25:00,440 Speaker 1: those rules are the people that benefit from the existence 461 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:05,720 Speaker 1: of jerrymandering, So they and so so, So what then 462 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:11,240 Speaker 1: becomes the way that citizens can make those changes or 463 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:14,680 Speaker 1: force our representatives in government to make those changes. 464 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:17,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, So the ballot initiative process is actually one of 465 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 4: our best tools. It's not the only tool, but it's 466 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:23,200 Speaker 4: certainly one of our best and so in some states, 467 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:27,360 Speaker 4: citizens can get together and propose a initiative to put 468 00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:29,760 Speaker 4: on their ballot to be voted on, and that just 469 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:32,480 Speaker 4: that requires collecting a bunch of signatures. It usually requires 470 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:35,879 Speaker 4: fundraising to do so. And you know, lawyers and political strategists, 471 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:39,160 Speaker 4: it's it's work, but it's totally doable, and it can 472 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:42,600 Speaker 4: be led by thoughtful, committed citizens. 473 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 3: It really can. 474 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:45,879 Speaker 4: And then you know, you run a political campaign, you 475 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:47,920 Speaker 4: win your valid initiative, and you have changed the law 476 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:48,440 Speaker 4: in your state. 477 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:50,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think I don't. 478 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:53,680 Speaker 1: I think a lot of people don't realize like how 479 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:58,479 Speaker 1: much power citizens can have in that way, that what 480 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 1: ballot initiatives can do, and that they're really they are 481 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 1: really just initiatives from the citizenry. They're not it's not 482 00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 1: a that doesn't have it's not a political process. It's 483 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:13,040 Speaker 1: something that goes citizens initiate and it goes before voters. 484 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:18,960 Speaker 1: And so things like jerry mandering, which no politician is incentivized. 485 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:24,840 Speaker 1: Some might have the sort of moral backbone to back 486 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:28,000 Speaker 1: it up, but they're not incentivized to fix jerry mandering 487 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:32,200 Speaker 1: because they're all benefiting from it. So yeah, so it's 488 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:35,639 Speaker 1: it is it is up to us and represent us. 489 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:40,640 Speaker 1: As seen a lot of success with ballot initiatives, Yeah, we. 490 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:45,760 Speaker 4: Absolutely have, and I don't want to understate the necessity 491 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:50,200 Speaker 4: to also put pressure on politicians at the state level. Yes, 492 00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:53,160 Speaker 4: so bad initiatives give us the chance to do direct democracy, 493 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,919 Speaker 4: but America is a republic, not a direct democracy, and 494 00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,000 Speaker 4: so very often we need to elect people into power 495 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:02,600 Speaker 4: and then hold them accountable and responsible. And so one 496 00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:04,239 Speaker 4: of the things that we've started to see is that 497 00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:07,239 Speaker 4: the more our movement builds power, the more that we 498 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:11,240 Speaker 4: were able to actually use that power to tell politicians, 499 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:13,200 Speaker 4: if you don't start fixing things, we're going to vote 500 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:13,480 Speaker 4: you out. 501 00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:13,879 Speaker 1: Now. 502 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 3: Of course that's not going to. 503 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:17,240 Speaker 4: Work in Congress yet, that's a ways off, but in 504 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:21,639 Speaker 4: cities and in states, it is the next frontier of 505 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:22,560 Speaker 4: how we create change. 506 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:24,879 Speaker 2: Mm hmm, yeah. What are some others? 507 00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:27,159 Speaker 4: Oh, the most exciting one of all has got to 508 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 4: be ranked choice voting. 509 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:28,679 Speaker 2: There you go. 510 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:31,680 Speaker 4: Everybody tells me that everybody gets pumped when we say 511 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 4: ranked choice voting. I know it sounds so boring, but 512 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:38,199 Speaker 4: I gotta say. I was at a gathering of some 513 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:40,480 Speaker 4: people a couple of days ago, and somebody in the 514 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:41,960 Speaker 4: corner of the room was like, you know, the problem 515 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:44,200 Speaker 4: is that ranked choice voting is so confusing and it's 516 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 4: really hard to explain to people. And somebody across the 517 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:48,160 Speaker 4: room was about to speak up and. 518 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:49,199 Speaker 3: Say, like, are you kidding me? 519 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:51,800 Speaker 4: You're just ranking things like what's your favorite, what's your 520 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:52,800 Speaker 4: second favorite, what's your third. 521 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:53,400 Speaker 3: It's not that hard. 522 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 4: But instead of that, this guy from Australia was like, 523 00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,159 Speaker 4: excuse me, I could just speak up for a moment. 524 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:02,359 Speaker 3: We've only ever used ranked choice voting. 525 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:04,560 Speaker 4: It's what we always do and every single one of 526 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:07,240 Speaker 4: our elections is run that way, and it just like 527 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:10,240 Speaker 4: it just makes sense, and like, how could you possibly 528 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:14,040 Speaker 4: think it's confusing, You're just it was fantastic to actually have. 529 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:14,879 Speaker 3: Somebody from a country. 530 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:16,520 Speaker 4: And then there was somebody from Ireland who said, yeah, 531 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:18,240 Speaker 4: you know, we've been using it forever as well, and 532 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:19,959 Speaker 4: it's just a better system than what you guys use 533 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:20,640 Speaker 4: here in the US. 534 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:23,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, so I will is that right. 535 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:26,280 Speaker 1: Australia has used ranked choice voting in all of their 536 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:27,600 Speaker 1: major political. 537 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:30,320 Speaker 3: That's just how they do it. Yeah, I didn't realize that. 538 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:31,000 Speaker 2: That's amazing. 539 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:32,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like eight. 540 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:35,280 Speaker 4: Countries around the world that use that mostly use ranked 541 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:37,479 Speaker 4: choice voting. There's cities across the US that use it 542 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:39,200 Speaker 4: in a handful of states as well. 543 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:45,480 Speaker 1: Now, so it's really interesting the amount of misinformation and 544 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:51,080 Speaker 1: disinformation that's out there about ranked choice voting because a 545 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:55,400 Speaker 1: lot of entrenched power on both sides of the political 546 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 1: spectrum realize that it's a shakeup for them. 547 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:01,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, so of course the people that are saying it's 548 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:03,160 Speaker 4: terrible are the ones that have the most to lose, 549 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:07,360 Speaker 4: so the established party interests. The reason it's amazing is 550 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:10,800 Speaker 4: that in our current system, you very rarely see folks 551 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:13,760 Speaker 4: winning with more than fifty percent of the vote, especially 552 00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,000 Speaker 4: if there's a third party running for election or in 553 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 4: a primary that you know multiple people winning. You can 554 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:21,440 Speaker 4: if there's four let's say there's four candidates running in 555 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:23,440 Speaker 4: a primary, you can win with twenty six percent of 556 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,760 Speaker 4: the vote. You just need your little portion plus one, right, 557 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:30,560 Speaker 4: which is kind of bonkers, it's nuts, right, it's really. Yeah, 558 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:34,000 Speaker 4: so like twenty six percent of the vote, So it 559 00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 4: sounds reasonable like shouldn't the person with the most votes win? Yes, 560 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:40,080 Speaker 4: of course they should, which is really different than shouldn't 561 00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:43,880 Speaker 4: somebody who got support from a majority of the public win. 562 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:47,120 Speaker 4: And what's so important about when you use ranked choice 563 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:50,479 Speaker 4: voting is that you actually require a candidate to have 564 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 4: more than fifty percent support amongst their constituents in order 565 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:57,080 Speaker 4: to win. Makes sense, you need more than fifty percent support, 566 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:00,120 Speaker 4: And so that's the most important thing here, And I 567 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:01,720 Speaker 4: want to just harp on it for a second, like, 568 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:04,560 Speaker 4: instead of if it was you and me and two 569 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:07,440 Speaker 4: other people running for office, I would only need to 570 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,200 Speaker 4: find my twenty six percent in order to win. And 571 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:14,040 Speaker 4: that might just be like only the you know, only 572 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:16,600 Speaker 4: the dog lovers, or only the crazies, or like whatever 573 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:18,160 Speaker 4: you want to say, only the people who think that 574 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:20,480 Speaker 4: the roads should all be painted blue. Right, that's my 575 00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:24,480 Speaker 4: twenty six percent. But if I have to get more 576 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:26,840 Speaker 4: than fifty percent to win, then I have to speak 577 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:28,960 Speaker 4: to a majority of the electorate. And to put that 578 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:33,080 Speaker 4: in real terms, progressives are usually about twenty five percent 579 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:36,120 Speaker 4: of the electorate, Conservatives are somewhere around thirty and the 580 00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:39,560 Speaker 4: rest are anywhere in the middle. And so you can't 581 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:42,320 Speaker 4: win with either just conservatives or just progressives. You have 582 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:45,760 Speaker 4: to start broadening your base. So when we talk about incentives, 583 00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:47,920 Speaker 4: if I have an incentive to reach a bigger. 584 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:48,719 Speaker 3: Base to win office. 585 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:50,520 Speaker 4: I'm going to have to do that, and then once 586 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:52,280 Speaker 4: I get into office, I have to answer to those 587 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:54,040 Speaker 4: people ranks voting. 588 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:57,920 Speaker 1: Me, and you're so your incentive is to temper your 589 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:02,640 Speaker 1: message and not cater to the extremes totally. I mean, 590 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:05,600 Speaker 1: how much more chill would our world be? 591 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:06,760 Speaker 3: Right? 592 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:10,959 Speaker 1: And how much elected officials felt a need to speak 593 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:12,560 Speaker 1: to a larger audience. 594 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:14,560 Speaker 4: And not only speak to them, but then be accountable 595 00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:17,880 Speaker 4: to that audience once they get into office, because because 596 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:20,080 Speaker 4: then you're kicking them out. But I do want to 597 00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:21,720 Speaker 4: answer the quest. I know people are going to be 598 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:23,280 Speaker 4: listening and thinking like, yeah, but you haven't said how 599 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:25,840 Speaker 4: it works or what it is. It's really simple. You 600 00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:28,280 Speaker 4: choose your first candidate that you think is the best, 601 00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:30,440 Speaker 4: and then you rank the other ones in order. So 602 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:35,760 Speaker 4: number one, Ed, number two, Josh, number three, Jane Doe, 603 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,200 Speaker 4: et cetera. It's it's literally, that's the whole entire thing. 604 00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:41,600 Speaker 4: You just rank your candidates in order rather than choosing one, 605 00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:44,120 Speaker 4: and then as the votes are calculated, they're able to 606 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:46,200 Speaker 4: figure out who has a majority support. 607 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:50,920 Speaker 1: Another term for ranked choice voting is instant runoff, right 608 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:53,840 Speaker 1: is that a phrase that that kind of I think 609 00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:57,200 Speaker 1: I like that phrase because it helps me understand that 610 00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:00,760 Speaker 1: it's sort of a Then the vote counting is a 611 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:06,840 Speaker 1: is a sort of multi step process. Yeah, can you 612 00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:08,280 Speaker 1: walk us through that a little bit. 613 00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:11,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, The application of that is really simple. If let's 614 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:12,920 Speaker 4: say there were four people running for office, and let's 615 00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:15,360 Speaker 4: say I'm gonna use you as an example. Again, let's 616 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:18,240 Speaker 4: say Ed gets fifty one percent of the vote. Like 617 00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:21,520 Speaker 4: the first choice votes, the election is over. Ed has 618 00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:23,840 Speaker 4: won because you got more than fifty percent of the vote. 619 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:27,600 Speaker 4: But let's say you only got forty nine percent, and 620 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:29,479 Speaker 4: then there's three of us who are splitting up all 621 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:31,920 Speaker 4: the rest of that other fifty one percent. If that 622 00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:34,959 Speaker 4: were the case, the vote tabulators would then look at 623 00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:40,440 Speaker 4: everyone's second choice votes and apply those until somebody reaches 624 00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:42,440 Speaker 4: more than fifty one percent. And since you were already 625 00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:45,040 Speaker 4: at forty nine, it's very likely that people who voted 626 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:46,920 Speaker 4: for me number one may be voted for you second, 627 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:49,440 Speaker 4: and so you got my votes and you won. Sometimes 628 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:51,760 Speaker 4: what happens, though, is that instead of somebody getting fifty 629 00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:55,560 Speaker 4: it's really spread out. It's twenty six, twenty four, twenty five, 630 00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:59,040 Speaker 4: twenty five, and so those second choice votes actually can move. 631 00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:01,320 Speaker 4: It can make it kind of like a horse race, 632 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:03,880 Speaker 4: or someone's ahead and then someone else gets ahead. But 633 00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:05,640 Speaker 4: it's just the same as the runoff elections that they 634 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:07,840 Speaker 4: currently use in Georgia, where if nobody gets more than 635 00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:09,600 Speaker 4: fifty percent, you have a second election. 636 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:12,240 Speaker 3: Right, but you've already cast your votes for your second election, 637 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:13,800 Speaker 3: so you don't need to come back to the polls. Right. 638 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:17,000 Speaker 1: You say, the ranking is your sort of second round 639 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:21,480 Speaker 1: of Yeah, exactly, of the votes. It is so elegant, 640 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:24,280 Speaker 1: it's so simple, and it's so intrinsically fair. 641 00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:27,080 Speaker 3: No wonder we don't use it. 642 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:29,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, no wonder we don't use it. Exactly. 643 00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:40,280 Speaker 1: There's another really interesting bit of represent A strategy that 644 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:47,720 Speaker 1: has echoes in prohibition. The volt said Act Prohibition was overturned. 645 00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:48,160 Speaker 2: In sort of a. 646 00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:54,920 Speaker 1: Movement that grew state by state, And it turns out 647 00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:59,040 Speaker 1: this is part of a larger trend of laws that 648 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:03,440 Speaker 1: have passed in this same kind of incremental way. Tell 649 00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:09,239 Speaker 1: us about how that factors into represent us strategy. 650 00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:11,719 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's actually a core piece of our strategy is 651 00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:15,160 Speaker 4: to follow in the footsteps of the prohibitionists, the anti prohibitionists, 652 00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:20,839 Speaker 4: and learn that throughout American history, passing state laws is 653 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:24,600 Speaker 4: ultimately what often leads to a federal victory. And it's 654 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:27,760 Speaker 4: not just prohibition. We've seen the same thing with interracial marriage, 655 00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:33,680 Speaker 4: which took two hundred years of effort, about sixty four 656 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:36,520 Speaker 4: losses before they finally got their first victory. Sixty four 657 00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:38,480 Speaker 4: years of losses, I should say before they got their 658 00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:41,360 Speaker 4: first victory. But those of us alive today might be 659 00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:45,279 Speaker 4: more familiar with the legalization of same sex marriage, which 660 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:47,720 Speaker 4: actually only took about twelve years from its first victory 661 00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:51,319 Speaker 4: to becoming a federal policy. And so what we see 662 00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:53,120 Speaker 4: is if we're going to change the government, if you're 663 00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:56,680 Speaker 4: going to change some big societal issue, the path that 664 00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:58,960 Speaker 4: has been used very often in the US is to 665 00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:02,680 Speaker 4: win law in the states as you build a movement, 666 00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:05,959 Speaker 4: as you shift the culture around those laws, so city 667 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:08,120 Speaker 4: by city, state by state, we fix things and then 668 00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:11,120 Speaker 4: move on to making it federal. But I think what's 669 00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:14,719 Speaker 4: interesting about this as pertains to the states is you 670 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:17,520 Speaker 4: might think, well, if we're winning in the states, we're 671 00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:21,280 Speaker 4: not fixing the federal government. But constitutionally, the US states 672 00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:23,759 Speaker 4: have control over the federal elections. That's just how it 673 00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:26,480 Speaker 4: works here in the US. It's how a republic was designed. 674 00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:28,600 Speaker 4: And so when you change a state law, you're not 675 00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:31,400 Speaker 4: only building momentum for that federal change, but you actually 676 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:34,359 Speaker 4: have the power in many states to directly affect that 677 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:36,120 Speaker 4: federal election in your state. 678 00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:42,160 Speaker 1: And it doesn't take as much momentum as people might think, right. 679 00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:47,080 Speaker 4: Right, it's those first few victories are often really challenging. 680 00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:50,960 Speaker 4: Marriage equality lost thirty one times before they got their 681 00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:52,120 Speaker 4: first state victory. 682 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:56,960 Speaker 2: Now you man, that's one of them too, right, Weed's 683 00:35:57,080 --> 00:35:57,560 Speaker 2: killing it? 684 00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:00,319 Speaker 4: Come on, But yeah, it's like once you get to 685 00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:03,319 Speaker 4: a certain number, and there's no magic number. But what 686 00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:06,120 Speaker 4: we've seen happen is that those first few victories are 687 00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:09,360 Speaker 4: slow and they're few and far between. But then eventually 688 00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:12,160 Speaker 4: you get your second, third, fourth, fifth victory and they 689 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:13,000 Speaker 4: start to pile one. 690 00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:16,720 Speaker 1: These are you're saying, victories, meaning like states building, states 691 00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:19,680 Speaker 1: changing laws like one, two, three, four, five, six, states 692 00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:20,880 Speaker 1: starting to change these. 693 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:25,560 Speaker 4: Laws, right, And then historically what has happened is that, 694 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:28,400 Speaker 4: again there's no magic number, but once you get up 695 00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:30,960 Speaker 4: to maybe the six, ten, twelve number, there tends to 696 00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:36,480 Speaker 4: be a real acceleration in states passing that same law, right, right, 697 00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:38,680 Speaker 4: And so we think of it as a tipping point 698 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:40,360 Speaker 4: where you get to a certain number of states and 699 00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:43,040 Speaker 4: then this acceleration happens where many many more states get 700 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:45,879 Speaker 4: on board, and then usually after that tipping point, it's 701 00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:49,200 Speaker 4: not very long until federal victory happens. 702 00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:49,840 Speaker 2: Very cool. 703 00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:51,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, it just means there's. 704 00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:54,359 Speaker 1: Hope, yeah, right, because people I think people think it's 705 00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:57,839 Speaker 1: so overwhelming to just like change a massive federal law, 706 00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:02,799 Speaker 1: and that does feel over and almost incomprehensible, like how 707 00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:06,200 Speaker 1: do you do that? But it does start small. You 708 00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:10,600 Speaker 1: can start with these state initiatives and then it really 709 00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:13,480 Speaker 1: is a domino kind of momentum thing. And it's cool 710 00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:15,960 Speaker 1: to sort of see that track through history with some 711 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:23,040 Speaker 1: of these major cultural moments prohibition, marriage equality, and so forth. 712 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:27,400 Speaker 1: When people are advocating for the American government to work better. 713 00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:33,200 Speaker 1: That is part of a really remarkable legacy of work 714 00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:36,040 Speaker 1: that goes back really to the founding of the country. 715 00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:40,560 Speaker 1: Ever since we got this country going, there's been an 716 00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:42,839 Speaker 1: ongoing effort to just. 717 00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:43,920 Speaker 2: Make it work better. 718 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:48,279 Speaker 1: Can you speak more to that legacy broadly and what 719 00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:51,400 Speaker 1: it's really looked like over the last two hundred years. 720 00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:54,640 Speaker 4: Since the very beginning of our government, we've been redesigning it. 721 00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:58,279 Speaker 4: It's this idea of a more perfect union, right, And 722 00:37:58,320 --> 00:37:59,960 Speaker 4: maybe it goes without saying, but I need to say 723 00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:02,760 Speaker 4: anyway that our union has always been far from perfect 724 00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:05,160 Speaker 4: and continues to be far from perfect this day. 725 00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:08,799 Speaker 1: I do love that where we talked about more perfect, more, 726 00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:11,919 Speaker 1: let's just make it more perfect, like we're getting there. 727 00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:15,000 Speaker 1: It's always going to be more, like we always have 728 00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:17,080 Speaker 1: to be making adjustments, trimming the sales. 729 00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:20,360 Speaker 4: And we've sort of talked about it like women didn't 730 00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:22,759 Speaker 4: have the right to vote, people of color didn't have 731 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:23,880 Speaker 4: the right to vote. 732 00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:24,920 Speaker 3: There have been. 733 00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:28,239 Speaker 4: Really big changes and who's allowed to participate in our 734 00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:32,560 Speaker 4: government and how the rules work. But the way I 735 00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:36,440 Speaker 4: like to think about this is we absolutely need everyone's 736 00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:41,319 Speaker 4: voice to be heard. So any restriction of the right 737 00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:44,040 Speaker 4: to vote is an abridgement on someone's freedom and that's 738 00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:47,719 Speaker 4: a problem and it needs to be fixed. And at 739 00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:50,799 Speaker 4: the same time, we have to have a system that 740 00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:54,480 Speaker 4: is responsive and accountable back to the people that put 741 00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:57,880 Speaker 4: our elected officials in power and so represent us. Is 742 00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:02,960 Speaker 4: about taking the ideas of progress and the sort of 743 00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:06,120 Speaker 4: momentum and legacy that has been built by the civil 744 00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:11,000 Speaker 4: rights movement, by the suffragists, and saying, we will continue 745 00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:14,920 Speaker 4: to perfect this union by making it work better for 746 00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:17,560 Speaker 4: the people, more perfect. 747 00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:18,520 Speaker 2: We'll get there. 748 00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:23,560 Speaker 1: What would you say to our listeners out there right now, 749 00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:28,239 Speaker 1: anyone who might be feeling a little disenchanted or like, 750 00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:30,319 Speaker 1: what can I do? How can I be part of 751 00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:33,920 Speaker 1: this process? All of this sounds great, but it's a 752 00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:38,120 Speaker 1: little out of reach for me, and I'm just depressed, Like, 753 00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:41,200 Speaker 1: how what would you say to connect to that person. 754 00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:44,319 Speaker 4: One of the best stories I've ever heard is a 755 00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:48,520 Speaker 4: story to four retired women who called themselves the Badass Grandmas. 756 00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:52,120 Speaker 4: It was two independents, a Democrat and Republican who all 757 00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:54,719 Speaker 4: just decided, you know what, North Dakota's got too much 758 00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:56,799 Speaker 4: corruption and we got to do something about it. And 759 00:39:56,880 --> 00:39:59,120 Speaker 4: so they, working with represent us and working with some 760 00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:02,600 Speaker 4: of our partner organisations, did all of the work necessary 761 00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:06,719 Speaker 4: to get a ballot initiative written, raise the money, get 762 00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:10,120 Speaker 4: the legal advice, build the political team, and they actually won, 763 00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:12,640 Speaker 4: and North Dakota went from having some of the weakest 764 00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:15,319 Speaker 4: transparency and ethics laws in the country to having some 765 00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:17,440 Speaker 4: of the strongest. And as a result of that, there 766 00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:19,840 Speaker 4: were changes in their government, Like, this is real stuff 767 00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:20,840 Speaker 4: that actually matters. 768 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:22,920 Speaker 3: Isn't that started at a coffee shop? 769 00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:28,000 Speaker 1: Isn't that the state where no politicians had to disclose 770 00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:32,239 Speaker 1: gifts that they got from lobbyists from citizens or Yeah, 771 00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:35,799 Speaker 1: so the lobbyists could just give them anything, and there 772 00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:40,080 Speaker 1: was no transparency at all, right, And these badass grandmas 773 00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:43,000 Speaker 1: were just like, no, that's not a we need to 774 00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:45,160 Speaker 1: see the dirty work. Yeah, if you're going to be dirty, 775 00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:46,879 Speaker 1: we need to know. And then well then we're going to. 776 00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:47,600 Speaker 2: Vote you out. 777 00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:48,359 Speaker 3: That's right. 778 00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:53,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, good for them. Can they can they run for president? 779 00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:56,120 Speaker 3: Or is that a we've actually we've been cloning them? 780 00:40:56,360 --> 00:41:00,280 Speaker 2: Yeah? Good, that sounds good. 781 00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:00,160 Speaker 1: Good. 782 00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:02,680 Speaker 3: Well, just some movements are built in the modern era. 783 00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:08,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks so much for coming on, snap who. I 784 00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:12,120 Speaker 1: really really appreciate it, and I think our listeners will too, 785 00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:15,480 Speaker 1: just hearing a lot of your insight and point of 786 00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:19,000 Speaker 1: view on this stuff. This is a show about history's 787 00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:21,480 Speaker 1: greatest screw ups, and I just want to thank you 788 00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:25,919 Speaker 1: for trying to make our country a little less screwed up. 789 00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:28,680 Speaker 4: It is absolutely my pleasure I have the opportunity to 790 00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:30,920 Speaker 4: have such a thoughtful conversation and to really dig into 791 00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:34,239 Speaker 4: this stuff is amazing and I'm just glad to be 792 00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:34,680 Speaker 4: a part of it. 793 00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:37,399 Speaker 2: So thanks right on, thank you, sir. 794 00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:44,600 Speaker 1: SNAFU is a production of iHeartRadio, Film Nation Entertainment, and 795 00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:48,880 Speaker 1: Pacific Electric Picture Company in association with Gilded Audio. 796 00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:51,000 Speaker 2: It's executive produced by me. 797 00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:56,680 Speaker 1: Ed Helms, Milan Papelka, Mike Falbo, Whitney Donaldson, and Dylan Fagan. 798 00:41:57,160 --> 00:42:01,160 Speaker 1: Our lead producers are Carl Nellis and Alyssa Tino. Additional 799 00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:05,759 Speaker 1: production from Stephen Wood, Olivia Canny, and Kelsey Albright. Our 800 00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:10,000 Speaker 1: story editor is nicky Stein. Our production assistants are Nevin 801 00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:14,840 Speaker 1: Calla Poly and A kemedy ekpo Facts checking by Charles Richter. 802 00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:19,200 Speaker 1: Our creative executive is Brett Harris. Our associate producer Torri 803 00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:23,560 Speaker 1: Smith edited this episode, editing music and sound design by 804 00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:27,760 Speaker 1: Ben Chug. Engineering and technical direction by Nick Dooley Andrew 805 00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:32,080 Speaker 1: Chugg is Gilded Audio's creative director. Our amazing theme music 806 00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:36,360 Speaker 1: is by Dan Rosatto. Special thanks to Alison Cohen, Daniel 807 00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:38,320 Speaker 1: Welsh and Ben Rizak.