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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: And welcome back to Coast to Coast George Nori with you,

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Speaker 2: doctor Paul Coot and I respect with us as a

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Speaker 2: PhD from UCLA. And there's two main fields of interest

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Speaker 2: and focus, being histories of death and animals. He has

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Speaker 2: written at least three books on the former and has

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Speaker 2: traveled to more than seventy countries to visit prominent death

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Speaker 2: related sacred sites while studying the culture traditions that have

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Speaker 2: evolved around them. Paul, welcome back. Have you been.

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Speaker 3: I'm well George, and you are an American treasure, so

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Speaker 3: it is always my pleasure to be here talking to you.

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Speaker 2: Well, looking forward to this too. How did you get

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Speaker 2: interested in animals and death?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, it goes back to when I was

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Speaker 3: a kid. I mean, I guess I was kind of

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Speaker 3: obsessed with both. I was one of those weird kids

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Speaker 3: who spent his time, you know, not worrying about the

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Speaker 3: baseball team, but worrying about what they were going to

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Speaker 3: write on my tombstone. And and I just always has

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Speaker 3: had this love, especially for cats. I always had a

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Speaker 3: love for animals, and so when I wound up doing

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Speaker 3: my PhD. I really got into the death studies stuff,

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Speaker 3: and the animal studies was always there in the background,

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Speaker 3: and eventually I kind of put them both together and

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Speaker 3: started working on the history of pet cemeteries and animal

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Speaker 3: ghosts things like.

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Speaker 2: That, and what is an animal ghost? What is a

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Speaker 2: pet ghost?

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, people don't really think in terms of

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Speaker 3: animal ghosts. But I'll tell you something, George, if you

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Speaker 3: were to put together all the different categories of animal hauntings,

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Speaker 3: animal ghosts, animal apparitions, and animal visitations, they're actually the

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Speaker 3: most common type of ghost story or haunting, way more important,

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Speaker 3: way more common than hauntings involving people. It's just that

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Speaker 3: we don't really think in those terms because historically in

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Speaker 3: Western culture, Western spirituality has kind of created this bifurcation

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Speaker 3: that humans are supposed to get an afterlife and animals don't.

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Speaker 3: Never really thought in terms of animals in the afterlife,

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Speaker 3: and so, you know, hundreds of years of stories that

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Speaker 3: we would call them ghost stories got attributed to witches, familiars,

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Speaker 3: or demons as if or you know, the devil, As

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Speaker 3: if the devil has nothing better to do then turn

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Speaker 3: himself into a cat. Or dog and walk through someone's

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Speaker 3: wall and stare at some cobbler in Strasbourg. But we

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Speaker 3: would call all these old stories involving you know, these

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Speaker 3: apporsions of animals, we would call them ghost stories. There's

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Speaker 3: a whole history of them.

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Speaker 2: As predominant as these issues are. Why has it seemed

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Speaker 2: that we don't talk that much about it?

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Speaker 3: You know, as I said, it's really a matter of

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Speaker 3: Western spirituality creating this bifurcation that humans were somehow number

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Speaker 3: one and they were granted in after life, and really

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Speaker 3: bad theology, this idea that animals don't have a soul.

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Speaker 3: And I know your listeners are probably a little bit

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Speaker 3: more enlightened and open minded about this stuff. There's no

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Speaker 3: reason to think if we have a soul, that an

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Speaker 3: animal shouldn't. And in fact, if you go back to

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Speaker 3: early Christian times, there was no one saying that animals

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Speaker 3: didn't have a soul. They were just questioning whether they

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Speaker 3: were of the same nature as a human beings. And

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Speaker 3: so you know, if we grant, if we grant humans

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Speaker 3: a soul, there's no reason to not grant one to

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Speaker 3: an animal. And there's no reason to think that an

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Speaker 3: animal shouldn't have an afterlife the same as a human

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Speaker 3: being does.

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Speaker 2: Are you convinced that it's real?

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Speaker 4: Oh?

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Speaker 3: Absolutely. You know, there are a lot of stories which

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Speaker 3: we can talk about, and you can give you a

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Speaker 3: lot of examples that have been verified. And I'll tell

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Speaker 3: you I had a couple experiences myself, and I wouldn't

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Speaker 3: be surprised if many of your listeners have also. Just

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Speaker 3: the other day, I was telling a friend of mine,

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Speaker 3: you know, I'm gonna go on coast to coast and

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Speaker 3: we'll be talking about animal ghost She said, Yeah, I

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Speaker 3: gotta tell you this story. This crazy thing happened. My

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Speaker 3: cat died, and exactly one year to the day after

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Speaker 3: her cat died, you know, she had taken all of

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Speaker 3: her cat's stuff. She hadn't thrown it away because she

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Speaker 3: loved her cat too much to get rid of anything,

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Speaker 3: and so she had taken all her cat's toys and

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Speaker 3: put them away. One year to the day when her

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Speaker 3: cat died, she found the ball that her cat used

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Speaker 3: to chase around the house. She found it in her shoe.

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Speaker 2: And how could that happen?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 3: Well, these types but these types of stories with pets,

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Speaker 3: that's why I say they're not like traditional ghost stories. Really,

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Speaker 3: they take the form more visitations. And these are the

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Speaker 3: most common kinds of hauntings you get with animals, this

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Speaker 3: feeling that you know the animal is somehow checking in

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Speaker 3: on you or giving you some kind of sign. I

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Speaker 3: had a cat that I lost almost a year ago,

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Speaker 3: and I'll tell you two real weird things happen. So

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Speaker 3: the first night after she died, I built a little

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Speaker 3: altar to her, and I lit a candle for and

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Speaker 3: as I was going to bed, that candle just started

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Speaker 3: to spark like a sparkler, like a fireworks. It just

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Speaker 3: started to spark, and it was just like it kind

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Speaker 3: of feels like he's checking in on me anyway. And

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Speaker 3: so a year passes is just last week, a year

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Speaker 3: had passed and she died, and I went to light

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Speaker 3: that candle again. That was on this little altar that

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Speaker 3: I made for At exactly midnight, that candle just snuffed

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Speaker 3: itself out exactly one year to the day.

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Speaker 2: That's amazing. Now, what animal is more apt to come

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Speaker 2: back as a ghost? A cat, a dog, a frog?

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Speaker 1: Ah.

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Speaker 3: I don't know too many stories about frog ghosts, but

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Speaker 3: there might be some. I actually can give you.

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Speaker 5: A story about a trout ghost, but I'll tell you

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Speaker 5: it's dogs for sure, And I don't know that that

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Speaker 5: means that dogs are more spiritually capable of manifesting themselves

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Speaker 5: or visiting.

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Speaker 3: I think it's more a question to just a dog's personality.

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Speaker 3: You know, A dog is the kind of animal that

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Speaker 3: is more likely to check in on you while it's alive,

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Speaker 3: whereas a cat's more independent. And I think that probably

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Speaker 3: carries over into the afterlife as well. But for sure,

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Speaker 3: there are a lot more stories about dog ghosts, but

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Speaker 3: there are stories really about all these animals. I mentioned

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Speaker 3: the trout ghost, and it's true. I know a story

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Speaker 3: about a trout ghost. There was a guy. When I

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Speaker 3: was working on my book about pet cemeteries, I visited

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Speaker 3: this old estate in England where a guy had a

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Speaker 3: trout that he had tamed in the eighteen fifties as

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Speaker 3: his pet. And this trout would come to the top

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Speaker 3: of the stream and eat out of his hand, And

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Speaker 3: after the trout died, he made a little grave for

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Speaker 3: it right next to the stream. And then the guy

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Speaker 3: eventually died, and the next resident of the house was

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Speaker 3: writing that he would see this ghostly shape of a

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Speaker 3: fish swimming around right next to where that grave was.

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Speaker 2: Now, some people have had animals that have passed on

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Speaker 2: and they never hear from them again. Why is that, Well.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's keep in mind that when it comes

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Speaker 3: to things like apparitions and hauntings, a lot of times

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Speaker 3: it's like a television set. You've got to be tuned

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Speaker 3: into the right channel. So you know, it very well

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Speaker 3: might be that the animals trying to contact you. I

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Speaker 3: well might be that the animal's not. But you know,

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Speaker 3: if the animal is trying to contact you, you've got

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Speaker 3: to be receptive to it. And a lot of times,

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Speaker 3: as human beings, I think part of the problem is

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Speaker 3: we kind of block out with our with our supposed rationality,

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Speaker 3: we kind of block out messages that don't make sense.

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Speaker 3: So I think a lot of people may me and

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Speaker 3: maybe they just block out that kind of communication from

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Speaker 3: the other world.

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Speaker 2: Do the animals reincarnate, Paul.

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Speaker 3: Well, that's a spiritual question that is a little bit

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Speaker 3: beyond my pay grade. But certainly there are a lot

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Speaker 3: of there are a lot of belief systems in which

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Speaker 3: they do. And I'll say this about the belief in reincarnation.

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Speaker 3: You know, I mentioned that part of the reason that Traditionally,

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Speaker 3: we didn't talk about animal ghosts. In Western cultures, we

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Speaker 3: had this bifurcation that you know, animals were the lesser

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Speaker 3: and uh and you know, so they they didn't really

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Speaker 3: deserve an afterlife, and human beings were the ones that

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Speaker 3: had actual souls that could that could pass on. But

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Speaker 3: when you get into cultures that believe in reincarnation kind

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Speaker 3: of get a different system because if a soul can

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Speaker 3: pass between different beings, you know, if my soul had

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Speaker 3: been a cat or a fish or a fly or

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Speaker 3: something else and then you know, became a human being,

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Speaker 3: it's a lot easier for me to believe that they

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Speaker 3: have a soul and that soul can carry on than

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Speaker 3: if I live in a system like I say, Western

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Speaker 3: spirituality that has this kind of hard and dry bifurcation

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Speaker 3: that we get the souls and they just get something secondary.

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Speaker 6: And I know you're gonna want some after hearing this,

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Speaker 6: this is an amazing story.

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Speaker 1: We've got Stephen and Malachi Gregory in Nelson, New Zealand.

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Speaker 6: Now I understand that Malachi, who's eight almost nine years

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Speaker 6: old now, was suffering with not just one or two warts,

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Speaker 6: but I mean a significant outbreak of warts all over

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Speaker 6: his body so significant it impacted his ability to really function.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, he was having trouble even holding a pencil to

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Speaker 7: right Epi's book.

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Speaker 4: Actually, that got me thinking about it. I'm not surprised.

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Speaker 1: It is an amazing immuno modulator, and so I can

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Speaker 1: see that it would work.

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Speaker 6: So at what point did you see that there was

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Speaker 6: actually improvements really going to work.

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Speaker 7: Well, look, we really started to notice it around twelve weeks.

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Speaker 7: You can see these things actually getting smaller and smaller

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Speaker 7: and then going down to with just little red marks.

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Speaker 7: The whole things are gone, and we're talking about what's

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Speaker 7: you know one that size the warner. I thought, no way,

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Speaker 7: that's gonna Wow. That's just been miraculous to see them

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Speaker 7: get into a pair of shoes.

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Speaker 6: Yes, how wonderful.

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Speaker 4: It's great to see. I'm so happy and yeah.

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Speaker 6: Compident, absolutely wonderful.

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Speaker 4: Friends that have seen it, that is blown away.

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Speaker 6: TI, this is awesome.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, this is awesome.

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Speaker 8: Another amazing story. Why we're talking about carnivora. Call them

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Speaker 8: to awaken your immune system and protect yourself now called

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Speaker 8: one eight sixty six eight three six eighty seven thirty five.

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Speaker 8: That's one eight six six eight three six eighty seven

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Speaker 8: thirty five, or visit carnivora dot com c A r

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Speaker 8: niv O r A carnivora dot com.

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Speaker 2: If you were very close to your pet, is it

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Speaker 2: highly probable that it would come back in its afterlife?

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Speaker 3: Well, again, that depends on how receptive you are. I

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Speaker 3: know people who were who were incredibly close to their

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Speaker 3: pets that never felt they had a sign or a visitation.

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Speaker 3: But I'm telling you that, and I'm sure we'll get

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Speaker 3: some calls on this with people telling us that they

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Speaker 3: believe they had some kind of visitation. It's very very common.

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Speaker 3: And by the visit, by visitation, I don't mean you

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Speaker 3: know you wake up in the middle of the night

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Speaker 3: there's this ghostly shape of a dog standing over you.

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Speaker 3: What I mean is you know you were in bed

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Speaker 3: and you feel some strange sensation that feels like your

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Speaker 3: dog's paws on the bed, but you don't see anything,

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Speaker 3: or that all that you put away has suddenly been

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Speaker 3: pushed out to the center of the room. Really really common,

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Speaker 3: and people can see it in all kinds of places.

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Speaker 3: I have a friend who is a complete skeptic, and

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Speaker 3: and she told me that her dog had died and

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Speaker 3: she called me on the phone in a pang. She's like,

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Speaker 3: I looked up at a cloud and this cloud has

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Speaker 3: taken the shape of my dog's face, so you know,

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Speaker 3: and she you know, that might be a little bit

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Speaker 3: of wistful thinking there with the cloud, but it just

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Speaker 3: depends on how receptive you are are.

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Speaker 2: There many animal cemeteries around the country.

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Speaker 3: In the United States, George, there's at least six hundred

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Speaker 3: of them, wow, and really a lot. The United States

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Speaker 3: has more pet cemeteries animal cemeteries and the rest of

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Speaker 3: the world combined. It's kind of an American specialty we

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Speaker 3: have because in the United States there's a great diversity

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Speaker 3: of ways we treat an animal after it dies. There

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Speaker 3: are regional variants, you know, people think of when people

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Speaker 3: think of pet cemeteries, either think of Stephen King or

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Speaker 3: they think of, you know, a cemetery that looks kind

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Speaker 3: of exactly like a replica of a human cemetery. In fact,

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Speaker 3: there are a whole lot of different types in the

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Speaker 3: United States. You know, where I live out in the

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Speaker 3: Mojave Desert, there are kind of you know, unspoken like

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Speaker 3: locals only secrets, but vast pet cemeteries out here there's

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Speaker 3: one in Boulder City, Nevada. One out by Bishop, California,

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Speaker 3: winter Haven, California, these Aha, Arizona, these vast pet cemeteries

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Speaker 3: on public land that are free burial sites where everything

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Speaker 3: is homemade. It's a very different type. So we've really

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Speaker 3: got a lot of different types. And we've got pet

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Speaker 3: cemeteries for special you know, specialized peed cemeteries for different

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Speaker 3: types of animals. There's a wonderful pet cemetery in Alabama

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Speaker 3: solely for solely for coon dogs. You know, it's got

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Speaker 3: to be a raccoon hunting hound or it is not

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Speaker 3: allowed to be buried in that cemetery. So we've really

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Speaker 3: got a vast panoply of ways to bury your animals

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Speaker 3: in the United States.

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Speaker 2: Partly is it you mean to put your animal down

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Speaker 2: if it's ill or sick?

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Speaker 4: Uh?

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Speaker 3: Well, I think so, George, and I think that most

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Speaker 3: animal lovers believe that. I remember some years ago I

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Speaker 3: had a cat who was a very strong animal, and

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Speaker 3: I had no idea she was sick until the very end.

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Speaker 3: She suddenly took ill one day and I took her

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Speaker 3: into a vat and they did a bunch of tests,

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Speaker 3: and they came back and they told me, you know,

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Speaker 3: we can't believe she's even still alive. Her blood is poisoned.

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Speaker 3: And they told me it's like, you know, she's probably

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Speaker 3: got a week left if you need more time with her.

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Speaker 3: But the question for me wasn't if I needed more

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Speaker 3: time with her, It's like, does she need more time

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Speaker 3: with me? And if her blood's poisoned and she's in

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Speaker 3: pain and she's only got a week to live, I

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Speaker 3: think it. I absolutely thought at the time it was

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Speaker 3: the humane thing to do to let her go, and

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Speaker 3: I think many people would agree.

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Speaker 2: Sounds like doctor Kavorkian, right.

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Speaker 3: The doctor Kavorkie of animals.

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Speaker 7: That's me.

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Speaker 2: Now, you've been to many countries, seventy plus countries. What

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Speaker 2: gets you to those countries?

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Speaker 3: Well, a love of research. I mean, just even on

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Speaker 3: this pet cemetery research alone. I mean I went all

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Speaker 3: the way to Egypt just to photograph one pet cemetery. Now,

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Speaker 3: when I worked on a book about the history of

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Speaker 3: domestic cats and I went down to New Zealand solely

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Speaker 3: to photograph one cat statue, I really believe that you've

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Speaker 3: got to go out there in the field and you've

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Speaker 3: got to experience these things. And these places firsthand to

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Speaker 3: understand them.

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Speaker 2: Tell me the difference between a cat and a dog

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Speaker 2: in terms of as a pet.

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Speaker 3: So, George, I've never had a dog as a pet. Really, no, No,

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Speaker 3: I'm a dedicated cat guy. But I think I will

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Speaker 3: go with kind of the standard. I think I'll go

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Speaker 3: with the standard line that cats are more independent, and

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Speaker 3: that's why I've always had cats. You know, I'm always

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Speaker 3: kind of on the go. It would just you know,

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Speaker 3: it's like a dog takes a little bit more upkeep.

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Speaker 3: I love dogs, by the way, George, me not having

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Speaker 3: one is not because of any animal between myself and

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Speaker 3: the canine species, they just don't fit my lifestyle.

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Speaker 2: They used to have a lot of huskies in labs,

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Speaker 2: both good great breeds.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, those are beautiful ones.

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Speaker 2: And one cat and eat patches that I got for

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Speaker 2: my kids. When I was smaller, I was working with

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Speaker 2: Rolston Purina in a public relations campaign and they had

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Speaker 2: a cat as a prop and they didn't know what

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Speaker 2: to do with the little thing afterwards, so I said,

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Speaker 2: I'll take it home. So I took it home for

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Speaker 2: the kids, and they loved them for a while.

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Speaker 3: They lived.

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Speaker 2: A life span of a cat is longer than a dog,

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Speaker 2: isn't it?

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Speaker 3: Generally speaking? It is, of course, you know, I always

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Speaker 3: say about cats and dogs, and here is a big difference.

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Speaker 3: To most cat owners, a cat's just a cat. To

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Speaker 3: most dog owners, a dog is a specific breed.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 3: The breed is much more important when it comes to dogs.

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Speaker 3: If you ask a cat owner, you know, what kind

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Speaker 3: of pet do you have, They'll just tell you I

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Speaker 3: have a cat. If you ask a dog owner, they're

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Speaker 3: going to tell you I have a husky, or I

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Speaker 3: have a spaniel, or I have something else and so uh.

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Speaker 3: You know, some of those smaller dogs and the chihuahuas

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Speaker 3: and so forth, they can live a real long time.

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Speaker 3: But those big dogs, you know, eight or nine years

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Speaker 3: is usually all they've got.

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Speaker 2: Where the paulkud Dinaris, we're talking about animals and ghosts.

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Speaker 2: His book is so one of his book is called

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Speaker 2: Faithful One to Death. What are the other ones that

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Speaker 2: you got, Paul?

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Speaker 3: Well, I have a book that about the history of

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Speaker 3: domestic cats called a Cat's Tale, And I've got three

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Speaker 3: books about death, Empire of Death, Heavenly Bodies, about jeweled skeletons.

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Speaker 3: I don't know if you remember this we I came

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Speaker 3: out to Colorado and we did an episode of Beyond

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Speaker 3: Belief Belief the Elets Yeah, and one called Momento.

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Speaker 2: Mary Fantastic, give us a quick story of a ghost tale.

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Speaker 3: One of my favorites. So some of your listeners may

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Speaker 3: be familiar with a term called crisis apparition, and a

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Speaker 3: crisis apparition it's a kind of haunting, but it's not

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Speaker 3: a typical ghost story. It only occurs once, and it

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Speaker 3: occurs at a time of great stress. You know, if

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Speaker 3: something bad is happening on the other end, we might

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Speaker 3: get an apparition or of a person or a thing.

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Speaker 3: In nineteen thirty one, there was a woman named Marie

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Speaker 3: Demmler in Savannah, Georgia. She was in she had gone

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Speaker 3: into the hospital to give birth, and she had left

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Speaker 3: her dog Mac at home with her sister. And so

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Speaker 3: she's in the hospital. She's just given birth. She's still

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Speaker 3: sitting there in the ward. Her dog comes walking through

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Speaker 3: the ward up to her bed. And not only does

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Speaker 3: her dog come walking into the hospital, her dog was

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Speaker 3: dripping with water. Dog was wet, and her dog pressed

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Speaker 3: its hand and pressed its nose into Marie's hand and

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Speaker 3: prets this cold nose into Marie's hand, and its nose

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Speaker 3: was wet too, and she's like, what the hell is

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Speaker 3: my dog doing? Next time my hospital bed here, and

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Speaker 3: the dog turned around and walked away and left these

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Speaker 3: little wet paw prince. She started screaming for the nurse.

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Speaker 3: You know my dog, my dogs just appeared in the hospital.

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Speaker 3: Why is my dog here in the hospital. And they're like, well,

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Speaker 3: there's no dog here. And I look look at the

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Speaker 3: look at the little wet footprints, a little wet paw

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Speaker 3: prints leading away from my room. There were wet paw

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Speaker 3: prints everybody saw. But then they looked out of the hall.

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Speaker 3: There's no dog' So, wondering what the hell or dog

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Speaker 3: is doing in the hospital, calls her sister and finds

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Speaker 3: out her dog has just died. And her dog had

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Speaker 3: died because it had drowned in a river. So her

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Speaker 3: dog appeared to her at the very end of its life.

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Speaker 3: This this, as I called it, crisis apparition, this haunting,

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Speaker 3: this this visitation to press its nose into her hand

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Speaker 3: one last time, just kind of let her know, Hey,

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Speaker 3: you know, I love you, I'm here for you, I'm

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Speaker 3: always looking out for you.

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Speaker 2: What do you think is on the other side for

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Speaker 2: an animal, is it the same as a human?

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Speaker 3: Well, I would. I I really believe that whatever life

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Speaker 3: force animates us animates of them. I'm very democrats about it,

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Speaker 3: so I would, I would assume. So you know one

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Speaker 3: of the popular theories. I'm sure you've heard of the

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Speaker 3: Rainbow Bridge. I'm sure a lot of your listeners are

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Speaker 3: familiar with it. And I'll let I'll have you know,

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Speaker 3: by the way, I was the first person when I

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Speaker 3: worked on that book and Faith Waalent to Death, I

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Speaker 3: was the first person to ever track down the actual

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Speaker 3: author of it, the Rainbow Bridge and get an interview

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Speaker 3: with her. And it's a very interesting story behind the

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Speaker 3: Rainbow Bridge. But you know, a lot of people gravitate

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Speaker 3: towards the Rainbow Bridge and this idea that there's a

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Speaker 3: kind of waiting space where animals will wait for us

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Speaker 3: and meet up with us. And in a sense, it's

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Speaker 3: kind of like purgatory for animals. I mean, they're not

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Speaker 3: working off their sins, but they're not moving on to

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Speaker 3: paradise immediately either. They're kind of waiting for us and

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Speaker 3: this edeal and then we cross over with them together.

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Speaker 3: So that has become one of the kind of pop

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Speaker 3: culture visions of what happens to animals. They kind of

403
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Speaker 3: wait for us in an edel until we're ready to

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Speaker 3: meet up with them again.

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