1 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:06,760 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. 2 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:09,000 Speaker 2: Welcome to stuff I Never told you production of iHeartRadio, 3 00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:22,760 Speaker 2: and it is time for another edition of Female First, 4 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:25,560 Speaker 2: which means we are once again joined by the terrific, 5 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 2: the astounding Hees. 6 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:29,319 Speaker 1: Welcome, ease, thank you. 7 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 3: I'm happy to be here again. 8 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 2: Yes, we are happy to have you because you are 9 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:36,240 Speaker 2: very busy. You're doing a lot of traveling. I was 10 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:38,800 Speaker 2: thinking about this every time we talk to you. You 11 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:41,040 Speaker 2: sound like you could be a person we're talking about 12 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:42,480 Speaker 2: one of these episodes. 13 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:49,240 Speaker 4: I don't need eco inflation. I'm trying to stay chill here, Annie. 14 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 1: I can't help an ease. 15 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 2: I'm always like what you're cat sitting, where. 16 00:00:56,680 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 5: You're traveling the country amazing. 17 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:03,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, are there anything any cool things to stand out 18 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:06,840 Speaker 2: you'd like to share with the listeners about what you've 19 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:08,080 Speaker 2: been doing where you've been going. 20 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:10,199 Speaker 3: So I have been. 21 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:14,720 Speaker 4: I've gone so far to Tennessee and Kentucky, and that 22 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:19,080 Speaker 4: was really nice because for a better or for worse, 23 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:22,840 Speaker 4: the weather was definitely a little bit unseasonably warm, and 24 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 4: so I loved that. Because I am camping out of 25 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:31,880 Speaker 4: the car, I have been living out of a rooftop 26 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 4: tent partially, and I've been in homes other times during 27 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:38,840 Speaker 4: my travels, but mostly we have our rooftop tent to 28 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:41,280 Speaker 4: be able to be able to stay wherever we like 29 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 4: to where we camp. And let me think, you know 30 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 4: what I really loved. This is gonna sound this is 31 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 4: gonna sound so basic, but I really loved one of 32 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 4: the nights that I was in Tennessee and Kentucky and 33 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:55,680 Speaker 4: I got to camp by the lake and at night. 34 00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 3: You know, so many places in. 35 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 4: This forested area of the country are like there's a 36 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 4: lot of arbor, there's a lot of tree coverage, so 37 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 4: it's hard to have really beautiful views and be out 38 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:12,400 Speaker 4: in places and it not be covered by trees. Unfortunately, 39 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:14,880 Speaker 4: it's winter, so there isn't as much foliage right now. 40 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:17,400 Speaker 4: But you know, when I stay a place and I 41 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 4: get to look up at the stars at night, there's 42 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:22,800 Speaker 4: a little skylight at the top of the tent and 43 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 4: I get to just look up at the stars. That 44 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:27,359 Speaker 4: was really lovely And I think I might have talked 45 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:30,919 Speaker 4: about it before. Here in the place where we were 46 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 4: at there was a planetarium, And no matter what the 47 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 4: program is, I do love going to planetariums, Like it's 48 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:42,120 Speaker 4: just fun to me. 49 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:43,079 Speaker 3: I love it. 50 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 4: I love the focus on the night sky, and so 51 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 4: I got to do that. That was a highlight for me. 52 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:56,240 Speaker 4: And also West Virginia was a big highlight for me. 53 00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:58,399 Speaker 4: So I haven't spent a lot of time in West Virginia, 54 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 4: and when I did pass through, I would say on 55 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:05,000 Speaker 4: my way to other places, I would say that I 56 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:08,119 Speaker 4: wanted to stay there for a longer time. And it's 57 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:10,640 Speaker 4: just a really gorgeous landscape. 58 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 3: I love. 59 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 4: The water and the mountains, you know, all the foliage 60 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 4: it's in fall. There were some really pretty colors when 61 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 4: I was there, and the black. 62 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 3: History that's there. 63 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 4: I really appreciated learning in the area where I was 64 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 4: at New River Gorge about the history of black people, 65 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 4: the black churches that were started there, the black communities 66 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 4: that were started there, the black miners that were there 67 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 4: in the early nineteen hundreds, and the diversity of miners 68 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 4: and people who came there for work in general, although 69 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 4: it was a lot of environmental degradation involved in the 70 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 4: work that they were doing. Yeah, I mean, I could 71 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:56,440 Speaker 4: go on forever, y'all, and I'm not going to because 72 00:03:56,480 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 4: we have a whole episode to get to today with 73 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 4: another fascinating woman with the they're fascinating history. But you know, 74 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 4: I'll be talking about that stuff in other you know ways, 75 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 4: in other places if you're interested in hearing about that, 76 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:15,080 Speaker 4: like on social media and stuff. But I really enjoyed 77 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:19,800 Speaker 4: the mix of the beautiful natural landscapes, the history that 78 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 4: I get to learn about, and the people, like the 79 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:27,360 Speaker 4: people I've been so hospitable in my travels so far. 80 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:30,800 Speaker 4: So yeah, that's that's the short of what I have 81 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 4: been enjoying and been grateful for in this trip thus far. 82 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 2: That's it sounds amazing, And I'm sure we'll do check 83 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 2: ins to see what else you've been up to. But 84 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:47,719 Speaker 2: Smith and I both love stars and planetarium. So you're, yes, in. 85 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 3: The righting accompany us. 86 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:55,279 Speaker 2: Yes, you're speaking our language. Well you do. You have 87 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:58,720 Speaker 2: a very fascinating person you brought to us today, Eves. 88 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 2: Who are we talking about? 89 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 4: Yes, I'm so excited for this episode. So today we're 90 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:07,359 Speaker 4: talking about I'm Rita scher Gill and she was the 91 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:11,480 Speaker 4: first Indian to have artistic training in Paris. And I'm 92 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:14,040 Speaker 4: gonna just be honest with you, y'all right up front. 93 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:18,240 Speaker 4: I you know, I really wanted to talk about her, 94 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:21,039 Speaker 4: and this is technically a first for her, but to me, 95 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 4: you know, it's a. 96 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 3: Good reason to talk about her. 97 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 4: Even that first, That first seems kind of dubious because 98 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:28,600 Speaker 4: a lot of the times with the first, when I'll 99 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 4: be going through list and trying to find people, people's 100 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 4: first will be centered around like their accomplishments once they 101 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:37,920 Speaker 4: went to the West, if they didn't live in Europe 102 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:45,720 Speaker 4: or in the Americas, like they were the first and 103 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:48,160 Speaker 4: going to like a Western university. So I try to 104 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:51,840 Speaker 4: stay away from things like that. So although this is 105 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 4: a technical first for her, she had artistic training in Paris, 106 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 4: it's not like the be all, end all and the 107 00:05:57,120 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 4: greatest part of her body of work and what she 108 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:03,520 Speaker 4: did for art and modern art. 109 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:07,599 Speaker 1: Yes, that's an excellent point, and I'm very glad. 110 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:11,120 Speaker 2: Because a lot of times, you know, people see a 111 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 2: first and I feel like they just move on. 112 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:14,760 Speaker 1: That's just their story. 113 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:18,320 Speaker 2: But this is such a such a great story that 114 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 2: I didn't know, and so I'm always glad when you 115 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:24,480 Speaker 2: bring those like here's the first, but here's the whole 116 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:27,080 Speaker 2: of who this person was beyond that. 117 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:31,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, and she was a person, like she was a 118 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:36,719 Speaker 4: full person. So Amrita was born in Budafest, Hungary, on 119 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 4: January thirtieth, nineteen thirteen. Her father was Umrau Singing Shergil 120 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 4: and he was a sick scholar of Sanskrit and philosophy. 121 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 4: He was also a photographer, so he took a lot 122 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 4: of self portraits. He took portraits of the family. That 123 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:56,800 Speaker 4: was a big part of what he was enthusiastic about. 124 00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:02,599 Speaker 4: And I'm Rita's mother was Hungarian and her mother's name 125 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 4: was Marie Antoinette Gotusman. Marie Antoinette was part of a 126 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 4: wealthy family. So that's a big part of Amritu's story. 127 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 4: It's a lot of wealth, a lot of stature politicians 128 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:19,000 Speaker 4: in her story, money, homes that have names. You go 129 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 4: through somebody's story, you see somebody so homebody. Yeah, we 130 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 4: call the home the home because, like you know, we 131 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:27,320 Speaker 4: got a little wealth and money. 132 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 3: That we're talking about when the homes start having names 133 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 3: and stories. 134 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 4: So she traveled all over the world. You'll see that 135 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 4: wealth and people of stature and importance being a part 136 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 4: of her social lifestyle and being in the wealthy elite 137 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 4: is a part of her story and definitely part of 138 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:48,840 Speaker 4: the access that she had to resources and education, and 139 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 4: how she was able to move a little bit more 140 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 4: freely and independently in her story. So Marie Antoinette, Amritu's mother, 141 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:59,400 Speaker 4: described her this way. Quote She was a beautiful baby 142 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:02,640 Speaker 4: with black, silky hair reaching down to her neck and 143 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:06,440 Speaker 4: big eyes which seemed to survey the world with queer astonishment. 144 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 3: End quote. 145 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 4: So there was an article written when Amrita was less 146 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 4: than two months old, and in that article, the writer 147 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 4: talked about how, speaking of wealth, the family's house had 148 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 4: nice leather chairs, paintings by notable Hungarian artists, lots of books, 149 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 4: nice sculptures and pictures, and ornate frames. And it's you 150 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 4: know when we see in stories like this, when people 151 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:38,840 Speaker 4: are surrounded by these kinds of cultural items, it's a 152 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 4: good place for as a child you to draw inspirations. 153 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:43,960 Speaker 4: So even before you may be conscious of what you 154 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:45,959 Speaker 4: want to do in your career or what you want 155 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 4: to do in your life's path, you're just naturally surrounded 156 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:52,880 Speaker 4: by these things, so they envelop you, they encompass the 157 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 4: things that you do. And your parents also have these leanings, 158 00:08:56,160 --> 00:09:03,319 Speaker 4: and Amrita's parents were also huge influences in her path 159 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 4: and art, so her younger sister and Dara, was born 160 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:10,560 Speaker 4: in nineteen fourteen. And in this environment of Budapest, it 161 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 4: was lots of museums, theaters, universities, so it was high 162 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:17,520 Speaker 4: cultural experiences that she was able to have there and 163 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 4: surrounded by. But when World War One broke out and 164 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:24,240 Speaker 4: the money that the family was getting from India was 165 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 4: getting kind of tight, they left Budapest and they went 166 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:31,640 Speaker 4: to another town near that was not that far from Budapest, 167 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 4: and it was here that Amarta settled into village life 168 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:39,560 Speaker 4: on the banks of the Danube. And when she was 169 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:42,560 Speaker 4: just five years old, as her mother described, she started 170 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:46,840 Speaker 4: drawing with colored pencils. Her mom noted how well she 171 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:50,000 Speaker 4: would draw all of the toys that were around her. 172 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:53,320 Speaker 4: And it was here that she started to get closer 173 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 4: to her cousins, Viola and Victor Egan and Victor will 174 00:09:56,160 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 4: come back into her story later in a quite controversial way. 175 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:03,600 Speaker 4: But yeah, when the money got better, they moved back 176 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:07,199 Speaker 4: to Budapest and to more luxury in a suite at 177 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 4: the Grand Hotel, and various people in the art world 178 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 4: would visit her family, and Amrita talked about how her 179 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 4: favorite kinds of presence to get when she was young 180 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 4: were art materials like drawing paper, color pencils, picture books. 181 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 4: But one thing that I really enjoyed that, she said. 182 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:33,960 Speaker 4: So I'll just stop here for a second to say 183 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:36,720 Speaker 4: that there are letters that Amrita wrote to other people, 184 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:39,679 Speaker 4: in letters that people wrote to Amrita that are available 185 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:43,880 Speaker 4: for reading. But in the letters and in some of 186 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:47,200 Speaker 4: the writings that she wrote, she talked about how when 187 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:50,520 Speaker 4: she would get those picture books, it's like she didn't 188 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 4: really care for those the most. 189 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 3: She wanted to do. 190 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:58,240 Speaker 4: The hard part of drawing so the whole Like the 191 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:02,480 Speaker 4: adults are going to draw these nice outlines for me, 192 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:05,000 Speaker 4: and I'm going to color them in this specific way. 193 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:06,920 Speaker 4: It's not really the way that I want to do things, 194 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 4: Like I want to do things so that I get 195 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:13,880 Speaker 4: to express my full creativity and my full you know, 196 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 4: the full breath of what I'm able to do. So 197 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:19,319 Speaker 4: she didn't really like that those rigid lines and having 198 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:22,840 Speaker 4: to be confined by them, which is pretty symbolic for 199 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 4: how she later talks about her experiences and learning from 200 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:27,719 Speaker 4: her teachers. 201 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:31,199 Speaker 3: So it's a weird in a weird meta way. 202 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 4: It's like she was saying this through her expression of 203 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 4: not wanting to work and draw that way, she was 204 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:38,959 Speaker 4: already saying this thing about like how she would develop 205 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 4: in her thought process about how she wanted to create 206 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 4: her art. 207 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:43,959 Speaker 3: So she. 208 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:50,080 Speaker 4: At the time in Hungary it was super unstable. Rule 209 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:55,760 Speaker 4: was authoritative, and then there was the prospect of more 210 00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:59,439 Speaker 4: hardship and less freedom. And that was part of the 211 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:03,040 Speaker 4: reason that her her family left for India in January 212 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:07,320 Speaker 4: nineteen twenty one, still bougie. You know, they stopped in 213 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 4: Paris on the way. You know, it's a long trip. 214 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 4: Might as well get a little bit of cultural exploration 215 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:16,400 Speaker 4: in in the middle. So they stopped in Paris, saw things, 216 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 4: and then they made it to India in February and 217 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 4: eventually to the city known as Simla in northern India 218 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 4: in April. So her parents are helping her develop her 219 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:32,839 Speaker 4: artistic expression early on. They notice it in her, they 220 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 4: recognize it, and so they try to uplift that. 221 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:36,640 Speaker 3: They get her an art teacher. 222 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:41,160 Speaker 4: But Amrita, knowing what she wants very early on, it 223 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 4: seems like she might have been pretty precocious, was like, 224 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:48,760 Speaker 4: I'm bored with this guy's message of teaching. She was like, 225 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 4: he's doing this is too rigid for me, trying to 226 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 4: make me do the same thing over and over and 227 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 4: do it a way that I don't want to do it. 228 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:56,920 Speaker 4: But she still read a lot at this point, and 229 00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:01,960 Speaker 4: she was introverted, and she eventually started to take lessons 230 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:07,559 Speaker 4: from another painter and he was named haul bevon Petman. 231 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:10,280 Speaker 3: I think that's how you pronounce it. And he saw 232 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:11,559 Speaker 3: a lot of potential in her. 233 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 4: He advised I'm Rich's mother that she should train at 234 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 4: the Slade School in London and that she should train 235 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:25,440 Speaker 4: in Paris. So Marie Antoinette, her mother, was like, all right, 236 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 4: I'm really into uplifting her interest in art, and I'll 237 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 4: do a lot of things to do that for her 238 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:35,120 Speaker 4: and her sister Indira. 239 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 3: So her and her sister. 240 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:40,840 Speaker 4: Would play piano, you know, dance, so they were involved 241 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:45,880 Speaker 4: in other cultural aspects and arts as well. But Marie 242 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 4: Antoinette was like, you know, I'm gonna take them to Italy, 243 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:52,920 Speaker 4: but it's because I'm having an affair with the sculptor 244 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:56,840 Speaker 4: who's Italian. Under this GUIs that she was going to 245 00:13:56,920 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 4: expose them to more art and language. It's not like 246 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:02,840 Speaker 4: that didn't happen. That did happen while they were in Italy. 247 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 4: But there was this double reasoning for her to go 248 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:12,520 Speaker 4: to Italy, but she took them there, and Amrita went 249 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:15,319 Speaker 4: to the Santa Annunciata school in Florence. 250 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:18,079 Speaker 3: She didn't like it. She didn't like. 251 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 4: How rigid and how stuck up it seemed, and she 252 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:24,480 Speaker 4: thought that it stifled her creatively. 253 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:28,040 Speaker 3: But she did like being in Italy. 254 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 4: And she learned about the Italian Renaissance masters and got 255 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 4: interested in their modes of creating. They eventually the family 256 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:41,720 Speaker 4: went back to Simla, and there Amrita started going to 257 00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 4: another Catholic school, which she didn't like being there either. 258 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:51,960 Speaker 4: And Amreta was already though, capturing the tension in her parents' relationship, 259 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 4: so she was very observant. Noticed that about her early work, 260 00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 4: she notices people's She seemed pretty, you know, empathetic of 261 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:08,320 Speaker 4: what other people were experiencing. And she does these watercolors 262 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:12,200 Speaker 4: and drawings, and one, for instance, was of a woman 263 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 4: lost in a forest. 264 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:16,400 Speaker 3: One was of a woman holding a knife to her heart. 265 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 4: And her uncle, Irvin Bakte, was a Hungarian painter and 266 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 4: was also an indologist, and he would visit the family 267 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:35,120 Speaker 4: in Simila and he introduced Amritu to some new tenants 268 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 4: of painting, talked about the importance of plane air painting. 269 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 4: She started doing these realistic sketches and using live models 270 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:46,440 Speaker 4: for her paintings, and she later said that she owed 271 00:15:46,480 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 4: her skill in drawing to him. So the family moved 272 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:05,040 Speaker 4: to Paris to support her arts education. When she was sixteen, 273 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 4: she got accepted into one school. She did more sketches 274 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 4: at the new models that were there, but her she 275 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 4: didn't want to draw with the most accuracy and her 276 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 4: dad didn't really care for that. There's a quote where 277 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:20,240 Speaker 4: he talks about how he saw these other artists who 278 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 4: were so faithful to you know, the figures, you know, 279 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 4: their drawings were so accurate, and he wasn't an admirer 280 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 4: of that. 281 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 3: But that wasn't what she was into. She didn't want 282 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 3: to do that either way. 283 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 4: She was allowed to start taking classes with this post 284 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 4: impressionist professor whose name was Lucienne Simon, and he was 285 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 4: at the Accole Deboe's art Even though she was too 286 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 4: young to be admitted there, she was still allowed to 287 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 4: take classes with him. Her mother wanted her to be 288 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 4: part of this elite social life. She wanted you know, 289 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:03,280 Speaker 4: the fancy get togethers at home, but I'm Rita. She 290 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:06,479 Speaker 4: kind of wanted to be outside with the CD art folks. 291 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:12,720 Speaker 4: She was interested in that lifestyle, and she had intimate 292 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:17,920 Speaker 4: relationships with men and with women. And she painted one 293 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:20,919 Speaker 4: of her lovers whose name was Boris. He was a 294 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:25,520 Speaker 4: classmate of hers, and has also talked about how her 295 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:29,760 Speaker 4: mom asked her if she was in a sexual relationship 296 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:32,720 Speaker 4: with the close friend of hers, whose name was Marie Louise, 297 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 4: and she says, Mama, I'm not a lesbian, but I 298 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:42,960 Speaker 4: can see the benefits. She talks about STIs and playing pregnancy. 299 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:44,960 Speaker 4: So she was like, so, you know, I see where 300 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 4: you're coming from, but I'm not a lesbian. So in 301 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:58,159 Speaker 4: her self portrait she painted in nineteen thirty, she was smiling, 302 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 4: wearing red lipstick, lots of colorful bracelets and a necklace, 303 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:06,359 Speaker 4: and she looks super carefree and happy. I really like 304 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:09,440 Speaker 4: that portrait. By the way, y'all can everyone who's listening, 305 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:12,919 Speaker 4: y'all can go and see her works online. There are 306 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:15,199 Speaker 4: a lot of them, so you can check out her 307 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:18,520 Speaker 4: work over time and see how it changed. But yeah, 308 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:23,159 Speaker 4: she sees an exhibition by the Bengali artist rabunjaa to 309 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 4: Gore in Paris, and she's a fan of his work. 310 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:29,479 Speaker 4: She keeps painting portraits of people in the city, and 311 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:33,440 Speaker 4: she paints more self portraits and she starts spending summers 312 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 4: and hungry with her family, but she has this pull 313 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:43,240 Speaker 4: to go back to India. In nineteen thirty four, she 314 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 4: does go back as she thinks being there will improve 315 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:50,640 Speaker 4: her art. Her father didn't want her to go. He 316 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:55,679 Speaker 4: felt like her unconventionality would hurt his reputation, and she 317 00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:58,120 Speaker 4: was like, I can't believe you will put your reputation 318 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:03,639 Speaker 4: over my progress, which is understandable, even though clearly the 319 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:07,520 Speaker 4: family did move quite a bit for them to learn 320 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 4: more about art, but she said she needed more new 321 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:15,000 Speaker 4: sources of inspiration and even though she had been in 322 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:17,439 Speaker 4: Europe for a while her stay, she said that her 323 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:20,680 Speaker 4: stay in Europe pushed her to discover more of India 324 00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:24,639 Speaker 4: and she started using Indian subjects and themes in her work, 325 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 4: but she maintained parts of her European influence and style, 326 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:31,240 Speaker 4: and she said that she wanted to be quote an 327 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:34,480 Speaker 4: interpreter of the life of the people, particularly the life 328 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:37,399 Speaker 4: of the poor and the sad. She loved the frescoes 329 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:40,720 Speaker 4: that she saw at Adonta in western India, and she 330 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:46,120 Speaker 4: met Carl Kande la Valla, who became a champion for 331 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:49,199 Speaker 4: her work and also a critic of her work, but 332 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 4: they were friends for the rest of her life, and 333 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 4: she exhibited what was then called Bombay and hydrobad. And 334 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:04,360 Speaker 4: here's where another female first comes up. She met Sarojini Naidu, 335 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,200 Speaker 4: who we talked about in a previous episode, who was 336 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:10,320 Speaker 4: the first Indian woman to be appointed President of the 337 00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:15,280 Speaker 4: Indian National Congress. So she's still, you know, rubbing shoulders 338 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:20,920 Speaker 4: with famous people and with people who were in politics, 339 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 4: who were notable at the time. And she's also having 340 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:30,879 Speaker 4: solo exhibitions. So in February of nineteen thirty seven, she 341 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:34,480 Speaker 4: had a solo exhibition at a center in the university 342 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 4: there in India, and she was becoming well known in 343 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:42,879 Speaker 4: the art world there, even though there were times at 344 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:46,600 Speaker 4: which she was criticized for the European influence in her work. 345 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:51,400 Speaker 4: So here's where Victor Egan comes back into the story. 346 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:55,879 Speaker 4: He was her cousin, but in nineteen thirty eight he 347 00:20:55,960 --> 00:21:01,440 Speaker 4: became her husband because they got married and her mother 348 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:06,879 Speaker 4: didn't approve of that, ostensibly because it was, you know, 349 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 4: a marriage in the family, but also it seemed like 350 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:13,040 Speaker 4: she didn't think that he was good enough for her, 351 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:16,120 Speaker 4: like he was still just studying to be a doctor, 352 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:20,360 Speaker 4: Like he didn't have the kind of influence and stature 353 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:24,159 Speaker 4: that she was looking for for him. And also that 354 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:27,919 Speaker 4: wasn't just an outside thing. So they got married. I 355 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:32,600 Speaker 4: think it was her niece who talked about how people 356 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:35,360 Speaker 4: didn't really understand how they were even a matter why 357 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:39,960 Speaker 4: she even got married to him. He didn't understand her work, 358 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:42,600 Speaker 4: and it seemed like the marriage wasn't that great. There 359 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:45,359 Speaker 4: is a point at which Amrita says they're fond of 360 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 4: each other, but they don't have anything to say to 361 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:50,479 Speaker 4: each other. So they would sit there in silence, like 362 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:54,120 Speaker 4: not talking to each other, and then they're be like, Okay, well, 363 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:55,880 Speaker 4: I guess it's time to move on to the next thing. 364 00:21:57,359 --> 00:22:01,080 Speaker 4: But in nineteen thirty nine, she she stays with him. 365 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:02,919 Speaker 4: I think there's a quote in which she says, you know, 366 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:04,840 Speaker 4: I followed him to where he wanted to go, like 367 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 4: a good Indian wife. In nineteen thirty nine, she went 368 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:13,720 Speaker 4: back to India with Victor in June, and at this 369 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:19,160 Speaker 4: time World War two is beginning. But from the period 370 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:23,479 Speaker 4: from that decade, from about nineteen thirty nine, or excuse me, 371 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 4: from about nineteen thirty one and onwards till her death, 372 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:30,879 Speaker 4: for about a decade, she created more than one hundred 373 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:34,880 Speaker 4: and fifty paintings, so she was pretty prolific and her 374 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:39,879 Speaker 4: work is being exhibited. So she had this big solo 375 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 4: exhibition that was scheduled to open in Lahore on December 376 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 4: sixteenth in nineteen forty one, but that didn't happen as planned. 377 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:54,600 Speaker 4: Her last painting was this unfinished view from her studio 378 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 4: window in Lahore. But she got sick and her husband, Victor, 379 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:05,120 Speaker 4: treated her for dysentery, but she went into a coma 380 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:09,240 Speaker 4: and Victor didn't end up getting a second opinion and 381 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:12,399 Speaker 4: she died on December fifth, nineteen forty one. She was 382 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:16,359 Speaker 4: only twenty eight years old at the time, so she 383 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:19,720 Speaker 4: had a short life, even though she created a lot 384 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:22,280 Speaker 4: of work within that time and she started very early 385 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:27,560 Speaker 4: on and she got recognition during that time, so that's 386 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 4: very notable. An exhibition of her paintings was held in 387 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 4: December of that year at Punjab Literary League Hall in Lahore. 388 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:40,880 Speaker 3: And she got a lot of poshumus credit as well. 389 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:44,600 Speaker 4: So in nineteen forty four, Carl Kanda la Valla wrote 390 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:50,000 Speaker 4: a monograph on her and in nineteen forty eight, sadly 391 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:58,399 Speaker 4: Amreta's mother, Marie Antoinette died by suicide and Amreta's niece 392 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:03,320 Speaker 4: also talked about how how her sister. Amrita's sister Indira 393 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:09,240 Speaker 4: also was heavily affected by Amreta's early death and remained 394 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 4: pretty sad about it for her life. But her paintings 395 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:19,320 Speaker 4: were donated later on. Her dad and brother in law 396 00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:24,400 Speaker 4: donated some to the National Gallery of Modern Art and 397 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 4: her husband also sold some of her paintings, and her 398 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:34,359 Speaker 4: family continued to carry on her legacy and document the 399 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 4: family history, I think for themselves, but also share that 400 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:41,720 Speaker 4: through their work. So Navina Sundoram and Vivan Sundoram they 401 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 4: created documentaries, books and artwork about Amorta in her life 402 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:51,240 Speaker 4: they were dedicated to as part of their own personal 403 00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:56,399 Speaker 4: artistic practices, but also as part of being their family 404 00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:00,919 Speaker 4: historians and sharing her work in legacy with other people 405 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 4: so that they knew about it as well. And also 406 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 4: Amrita's work has gotten a lot of money at auction. 407 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:12,720 Speaker 4: She's considered one of the nine National Treasure Artists of 408 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:17,520 Speaker 4: India and she's also credited with helping bring in modernism 409 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:20,959 Speaker 4: into Indian art. And last year she set a record 410 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:25,000 Speaker 4: for getting the highest ever price for an Indian art 411 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:27,480 Speaker 4: work that was sold at auction. It was sold for 412 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:31,159 Speaker 4: seven point four or five million dollars. And that was 413 00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:35,159 Speaker 4: the work The Storyteller, which it shows the circle of 414 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:37,359 Speaker 4: women that are seated next to cow's in a garden. 415 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:44,200 Speaker 4: And she often in her work showed women's subjects. As 416 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:46,240 Speaker 4: I said from that quote that she had earlier, she 417 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:51,320 Speaker 4: was really interested in faithfully documenting, but not like romanticizing 418 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:54,400 Speaker 4: the life of people who were living in poverty in 419 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:56,800 Speaker 4: India and the people who were just going about their 420 00:25:56,960 --> 00:26:03,280 Speaker 4: daily duties and working and spending time with their families 421 00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:09,560 Speaker 4: and loved ones and painting those kinds of scenes. So 422 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:14,800 Speaker 4: that is the life of Armor to She did a 423 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:18,439 Speaker 4: lot in a very short period twenty eight years. But 424 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:23,480 Speaker 4: it's a very very fascinating story. I think from all 425 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:28,440 Speaker 4: of her travels, to her background, to the different influences 426 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:33,960 Speaker 4: she had through her being invested and involved in art 427 00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:39,959 Speaker 4: at such a turbulent time during the World Wars and 428 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:41,320 Speaker 4: during her time in Hungary. 429 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:56,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, I love this story. It's amazing that she had 430 00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:59,119 Speaker 2: such an influence and continues to still have an influence 431 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 2: and is her paintings are breaking millions of dollars. But 432 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:06,440 Speaker 2: I also love that you bought in. The through line 433 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:08,560 Speaker 2: in her life seemed to be like she didn't like that. 434 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:12,399 Speaker 2: She didn't people kept telling her what to do, and 435 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:15,760 Speaker 2: she was like, no, I don't like that, so I'm 436 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:20,320 Speaker 2: going to do this own thing. And she made change 437 00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:23,800 Speaker 2: through doing that. But it is it's to hear it 438 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:25,480 Speaker 2: from such a young age of like I don't want 439 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:27,119 Speaker 2: to color in the lines. I don't want to be 440 00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:31,399 Speaker 2: like restrained in this way or this this teacher, I 441 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:33,320 Speaker 2: don't like how he only teaches me this one thing. 442 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:37,400 Speaker 2: It's amazing to see how many times she was like, no, 443 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:40,600 Speaker 2: I'm gonna do I'm going to do my own thing. 444 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 4: Actually yeah, and she said it out loud, like she 445 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 4: was like, yeah, I'm not into that. 446 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:52,840 Speaker 3: I'm still going to do it my own way, and 447 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:54,000 Speaker 3: this is for the best. 448 00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 4: She clearly bet on herself, so like even when people 449 00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:00,640 Speaker 4: outside of her was were telling her that this wasn't 450 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,480 Speaker 4: the best way to do things, or she wasn't going 451 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,679 Speaker 4: to have the most success doing these things. She still 452 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 4: chose to paint that way. She still chose to draw 453 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:13,760 Speaker 4: that way, and she wasn't afraid of the consequences. So 454 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:16,880 Speaker 4: it seemed like she was like, Okay, whatever happens, I'm 455 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:19,840 Speaker 4: going to choose to do things this way. Like, for instance, 456 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:24,119 Speaker 4: she got expelled from one of the Catholic schools that 457 00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:28,679 Speaker 4: she was going to, and you know, it was like, 458 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:33,640 Speaker 4: all right, fine, I don't I'm you know, I'm I'm 459 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:34,880 Speaker 4: doing these new paintings. 460 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:36,399 Speaker 3: I'm doing these new drawings. 461 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 4: This is what I choose to do because this is 462 00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:41,560 Speaker 4: what I want to do, and I'll accept whatever comes 463 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:42,000 Speaker 4: after that. 464 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:43,000 Speaker 3: Right. 465 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:47,480 Speaker 5: I feel like she was the original bohemian pixie manic girl. 466 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:49,440 Speaker 3: You know what I mean. 467 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:52,400 Speaker 5: Yeah, that level of like a little bit of rebellion, 468 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 5: but a lot of wisdom as well, and just really 469 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:58,800 Speaker 5: following her instinct. It's kind of like, oh, she really 470 00:28:59,000 --> 00:28:59,760 Speaker 5: was that girl. 471 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:02,160 Speaker 3: Yeah. 472 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,840 Speaker 4: Well, it's funny you say that because in one of 473 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:09,200 Speaker 4: the when I was watching her niece talk about her, 474 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 4: she mentioned that a lot of the people in the 475 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 4: family were man they had manic depression, and she said 476 00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 4: that what she said was that Amorton was the one 477 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:23,640 Speaker 4: who was the most stable of. 478 00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:24,160 Speaker 3: All of them. 479 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:27,640 Speaker 4: So I think that might have been comparative because she 480 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:30,320 Speaker 4: still said that there were some of that in her, 481 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:34,520 Speaker 4: but like compared to her other family members, she was 482 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:35,560 Speaker 4: the one who didn't. 483 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:37,040 Speaker 3: Have it as much as they did. 484 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:41,240 Speaker 4: But she definitely was all about like going in the 485 00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:42,160 Speaker 4: opposite direction. 486 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:44,720 Speaker 3: Right. I love that story. 487 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:46,720 Speaker 5: It sounds like then that makes a lot more sense 488 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,680 Speaker 5: of why she got so much leeway into doing those things, 489 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:51,160 Speaker 5: and the other people were like, well, it's less bad 490 00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 5: as cousin over here, so let her do this just 491 00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:54,680 Speaker 5: doing things. 492 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 3: It's wonderful. Yeah, but it does. It's it's so her. 493 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:07,640 Speaker 4: This story is so ripe for dramatizing because of how romanic, 494 00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:11,400 Speaker 4: because of how romanticized that kind of bohemian lifestyle can be, 495 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 4: and Paris at the time she was there exactly, and 496 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:17,320 Speaker 4: the way she was moving through Paris because she was bisexual, 497 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:19,760 Speaker 4: you know, even though she said to her mom, like, 498 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:20,760 Speaker 4: I'm not a lesbian. 499 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:21,760 Speaker 3: Yeah. 500 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:24,480 Speaker 4: So I think there are so many elements of her 501 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:28,680 Speaker 4: story that are so fanciful, and she really was a 502 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:33,239 Speaker 4: beautiful person. And if you go and you see the 503 00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:35,719 Speaker 4: pictures of the home she lived in, like they just 504 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:41,280 Speaker 4: look so nice and idealic, like the environments that they 505 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:44,080 Speaker 4: were in and growing up in the village. And I 506 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:51,240 Speaker 4: think this overarching theme of her navigating two different realms, 507 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:55,840 Speaker 4: you know, because she was definitely moneyed and definitely walking 508 00:30:55,880 --> 00:31:00,240 Speaker 4: in these circles with these high falutine folks, but she 509 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:03,520 Speaker 4: was also able to, like in a way that seemed 510 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:09,200 Speaker 4: pretty sincere, speak with and engage with people who lived 511 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:13,160 Speaker 4: in villages and also live in village herself, and remain 512 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:18,320 Speaker 4: focused on her art and the expressing things in an 513 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:20,040 Speaker 4: honest and sincere way and. 514 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:21,960 Speaker 3: Seemingly remaining humble. 515 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, And it's really I find that when I'm looking 516 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,920 Speaker 4: at her work, it is very evinces truly a lot 517 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:33,480 Speaker 4: of emotion. Like I think, I don't know, maybe everyone's 518 00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:35,200 Speaker 4: to just spend a little bit of time just like 519 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:37,719 Speaker 4: looking at them and maybe even look at them before 520 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:42,200 Speaker 4: you dig deeper into her story and see what feelings 521 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 4: arise as as looking through them, because you know, people 522 00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:53,760 Speaker 4: still clearly recognize what her work meant to Indian art 523 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:57,959 Speaker 4: and what it meant to modern art, and that is 524 00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:02,960 Speaker 4: beyond their commercial value, because you know, southernby auctions aren't 525 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:06,000 Speaker 4: the end all be all of the meaning that should 526 00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:09,320 Speaker 4: be made from the work that somebody did. So even 527 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:13,880 Speaker 4: beyond that, her recognition as this national treasure of India 528 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:18,520 Speaker 4: is important, and the work that her family has done 529 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:25,440 Speaker 4: in memorializing her. It's honestly really beautiful too, because I 530 00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:29,600 Speaker 4: think it was Vivan Sundorum. You know, he has his 531 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:32,640 Speaker 4: own artwork as well, but at a point turned really 532 00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:36,240 Speaker 4: heavily into being this kind of family historian, and that 533 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:38,440 Speaker 4: takes a lot of work, especially with someone who has 534 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:43,360 Speaker 4: such an extensive family history and extensively documented family history, 535 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:48,240 Speaker 4: because not everybody kept those kinds of letters, not everybody 536 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:50,480 Speaker 4: wrote them, and not everybody held on to them. Not 537 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:54,080 Speaker 4: everybody had that photographic documentation of their lives. 538 00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:57,160 Speaker 3: So it's honestly a really beautiful. 539 00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:00,160 Speaker 4: Thing to see how long of a life and how 540 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:04,680 Speaker 4: much of an avalanche just that documentation over time through 541 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:13,520 Speaker 4: personal passion but also through dedication devotion to documenting that 542 00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:16,400 Speaker 4: that's really paid off, right. 543 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:18,239 Speaker 5: I mean, that definitely says a lot to like how 544 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:22,200 Speaker 5: much he was able to foresee the importance of it 545 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 5: all because most of the times, like in our presence, 546 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:25,640 Speaker 5: a lot of times we don't think about it. We 547 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:27,480 Speaker 5: don't think about it until like fifty years later or 548 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:29,720 Speaker 5: one hundred years later, when we have to rediscover it 549 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:33,080 Speaker 5: and be like, oh man, if someone had actually seen 550 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:36,240 Speaker 5: foreseen what this could have been like. In here we 551 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:39,120 Speaker 5: have an actual moment of like him, loving something and 552 00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:42,040 Speaker 5: understanding something to its depth and preserving it and making 553 00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:43,959 Speaker 5: sure that it's told. That's phenomenal. 554 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:47,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, it is, it is, it is. 555 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:54,640 Speaker 2: It's strangely enough, I've thought about this because I'm very 556 00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:59,400 Speaker 2: sentimental and I save everything like people send me. 557 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:01,960 Speaker 1: And I don't know why. 558 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:03,680 Speaker 2: I think it's just because of the I watched so 559 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:05,480 Speaker 2: many horror movies. But I've thought about, like, if I 560 00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:10,239 Speaker 2: died or disappeared suddenly, here's what they would have like 561 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:13,879 Speaker 2: to piece together who I am. But the thing is, 562 00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:17,960 Speaker 2: I've also burned things that I didn't like. 563 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:19,120 Speaker 3: I remember that. 564 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:22,919 Speaker 2: So it's like you're kind of, in a strange way, 565 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:27,440 Speaker 2: controlling a narrative that will never happen in my case. 566 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:31,839 Speaker 2: But it's just interesting to think about those things that 567 00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:36,640 Speaker 2: people find and piece together through letters or diaries or 568 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:38,799 Speaker 2: what have you. In the story that you're able to 569 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:43,279 Speaker 2: the story of someone's life. You're able to get from 570 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:43,960 Speaker 2: those things. 571 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:46,200 Speaker 1: That is really great. 572 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:49,720 Speaker 4: And I believe I kept a scrap book as well, 573 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:53,600 Speaker 4: and it had clippings of the articles about her in it. 574 00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:57,520 Speaker 4: And yes, it makes me think about what I should 575 00:34:57,640 --> 00:34:59,560 Speaker 4: keep and when I don't keep, because I like to 576 00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:05,560 Speaker 4: keep things too, And like, since I've been traveling, I'm like. 577 00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:09,600 Speaker 3: Should I keep this entry ticket? Should I keep this map? 578 00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:13,439 Speaker 4: Like no, it's just a kind of pretty disposable piece 579 00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:16,759 Speaker 4: of paraphernalia, Like it's just a map, but like is 580 00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:17,880 Speaker 4: just is it just a map? 581 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:21,160 Speaker 3: It tells part of the story too. Should I keep 582 00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:25,920 Speaker 3: this receipt? Like little things like that? So yeah, it 583 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:28,040 Speaker 3: is something that is interesting to think about. 584 00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:31,000 Speaker 2: Well, it's also in a trope and a lot of 585 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:33,880 Speaker 2: games I play, like horror games, because you find the 586 00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:36,399 Speaker 2: notes and they're like. 587 00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:42,799 Speaker 6: Oh no, this is all the like yeah, yes, so 588 00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:47,040 Speaker 6: well you're talking about the survival horror video games, aren't you. 589 00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:48,239 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's just. 590 00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:50,040 Speaker 5: Thinking absolutely, like The Last of Us and The Last 591 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:53,920 Speaker 5: of Us two. But eas just just to answer your question, yes, 592 00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:56,799 Speaker 5: you should save everything as you're traveling. I should like 593 00:35:57,120 --> 00:35:59,000 Speaker 5: put it as a bookmarker in your journal of like 594 00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:01,800 Speaker 5: those times, because that's significant. 595 00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:05,200 Speaker 4: Well, I've been an aspirational scrap booker, I have to 596 00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:06,800 Speaker 4: tell you. I always say I'm going to put it 597 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:08,960 Speaker 4: in there because it'll be somewhere to store it. 598 00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:12,120 Speaker 3: But I never do it. I never do it. 599 00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:15,279 Speaker 5: My mom's the only scrap booker I know, and she 600 00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:19,200 Speaker 5: does pretty well. It makes me I realize how little 601 00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:21,319 Speaker 5: stuff that I did sometimes and I'm like, oh, my 602 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:22,760 Speaker 5: scrap book is four pages. 603 00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:27,040 Speaker 3: Nice. I'm just kidding, But yes, scrapbook is in the chore. 604 00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:28,920 Speaker 3: It's a commitment. 605 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:31,279 Speaker 1: I did them for like things I loved. Yeah you 606 00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:35,439 Speaker 1: did you didn't do it? Oh yeah? Oh yeah. 607 00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:38,400 Speaker 4: There has to be someone willing to hold onto this 608 00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:39,680 Speaker 4: scrap book after. 609 00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:46,719 Speaker 3: Into this. Is anybody gonna care about it? 610 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:49,279 Speaker 5: Yes? 611 00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:57,920 Speaker 2: Yes, Well, thank you so much, Eves for coming on. 612 00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:01,400 Speaker 2: We know you're busy, uh, traveling all over, so thank you. 613 00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:04,800 Speaker 2: We really appreciate it. We always love having you. 614 00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:08,920 Speaker 3: Thank you. Yeah. I love sharing any story. 615 00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:12,720 Speaker 1: They're great, They're so good. Where can the good listeners 616 00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:13,160 Speaker 1: find you? 617 00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:16,960 Speaker 4: Y'all can find me. You can go to Instagram. I'm 618 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:20,279 Speaker 4: there at not apologizing. You can also go to my 619 00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:25,400 Speaker 4: website which is Eve's Jeffcote dot com. That's spelled yv 620 00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:30,760 Speaker 4: E s j E F f co a t dot com. 621 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:34,240 Speaker 4: And from there you can find links out to other things. 622 00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:38,279 Speaker 4: So you can also sign up for my newsletter if 623 00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:41,000 Speaker 4: you go to just like the pop up on that 624 00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:43,360 Speaker 4: page or go to my contact page on my website. 625 00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:45,880 Speaker 4: You can also find me as a co host of 626 00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:49,200 Speaker 4: the podcast on Theme, which is a show about black storytelling, 627 00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:52,480 Speaker 4: and you can find me on many other episodes of 628 00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:57,799 Speaker 4: Stuff Mom Never Told You talking about female first and yeah, 629 00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:01,040 Speaker 4: just if as I mentioned earlier in the episode, if 630 00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:07,200 Speaker 4: you're interested in my travels and the history and natural 631 00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:09,440 Speaker 4: things that I've been doing along the way, then you 632 00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:12,759 Speaker 4: can find that stuff on Instagram and they'll be links 633 00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:14,560 Speaker 4: out to other places to find that too there. 634 00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:18,359 Speaker 1: Yes, definitely go do that. 635 00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:21,880 Speaker 2: Listeners, and if you would like to contact us, you 636 00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:25,080 Speaker 2: can our emails Stepnie Mom Stuff at I heartmedia dot com. 637 00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:26,400 Speaker 2: You can find us on Twitter at most of the 638 00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:28,600 Speaker 2: podcast or Instagram and to talk at stuff I'll Never 639 00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:31,000 Speaker 2: Told You. We're on YouTube, we have a tea public story, 640 00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:32,239 Speaker 2: and we have a book you can get wherever you 641 00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:35,640 Speaker 2: get your books. Thanks as always to our super producer Christina, 642 00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:38,440 Speaker 2: our executive producer Maya, and our contributor Joey. 643 00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:40,240 Speaker 1: Thank you and thanks to you for listening. 644 00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:42,080 Speaker 2: Stuff I'll Never Told You is production by Heart Radio. 645 00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:43,680 Speaker 2: For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, you can check 646 00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:45,680 Speaker 2: out the heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you 647 00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:54,600 Speaker 2: listen to your favorite shows.