WEBVTT - Part Two: The Men Who Might Have Killed Us All

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<v Speaker 1>Also media.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, welcome back to Behind the Bastards. Robert got of

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<v Speaker 2>a sect me edition. These part tools and to celebrate

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<v Speaker 2>you kidding, give a sectimy. We're talking about mutually assured

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<v Speaker 2>nuclear destruction and the bastards who ensured that it was

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<v Speaker 2>in fact mutually assured global destruction. If one of two

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<v Speaker 2>countries ever got two pissed at each other.

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<v Speaker 3>Is this here? No skin in the game episode?

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<v Speaker 2>That's right, baby? Oh wow? Ok, yeah, that's why you

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<v Speaker 2>should give me control of the nukes, because I'm gonna

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<v Speaker 2>use them. But just on the Great Lakes. We just

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<v Speaker 2>had the anniversary of the Edmund Fitzgerald's tragic sinking. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>there's no better time than to remind people that this

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't have to continue. We could stop the Great Lakes tomorrow.

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<v Speaker 3>The Pearl Harbor of the Midwest.

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<v Speaker 2>That's right, that's right. I have heard people comparing it

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<v Speaker 2>to nine to eleven and then wondering why there's not

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<v Speaker 2>like a really good nine to eleven song, And I

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<v Speaker 2>think that is a good question. Wow, we just got

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<v Speaker 2>a bunch of Lee Greenwood. Shit. You know, where's where's

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<v Speaker 2>the Edmund Fitzgerald of nine to eleven?

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<v Speaker 3>All right? I'll tell you a terrible embarrassing fact. I

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<v Speaker 3>lived in New York City on nine to eleven.

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't know that.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, no, I happened to be inside while the towers fell.

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<v Speaker 2>But I'm sure he had something more important to day.

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<v Speaker 3>I sure went from some towers to some smoke. But

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<v Speaker 3>the goth band I was in, I wasn't the songwriter.

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<v Speaker 3>I did a lot of the synthesizers and programming. We

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<v Speaker 3>wrote a song about nine to eleven, and I didn't

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<v Speaker 3>realize it until months later that our song Gone from

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<v Speaker 3>the Sky was.

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<v Speaker 2>About nine eleven.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, anything and the no, the uh, the hook at

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<v Speaker 3>the end was dear God or Lord, where are you now?

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<v Speaker 3>Just over and over again, and this like super bass

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<v Speaker 3>voice that the singer had sick.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's I don't know, you know, we should have

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<v Speaker 2>a good song. There is a good song about mutually

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<v Speaker 2>assured nuclear destruction, and maybe we'll play it at the

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<v Speaker 2>end of these episodes. It's Tom Lair's all go together

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<v Speaker 2>when we go. It's like a joyous song about like look.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, like on the beach, but like a beach party.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah exactly, yes, Uh, there will be no am when

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<v Speaker 2>you see that. ICBM we will all go together when

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<v Speaker 2>we go. H Okay, miss in the sky. Now, that's

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<v Speaker 2>a great song, Margaret, that's a great that's a happier song.

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<v Speaker 2>That's about one side getting destroyed. Good song, good IRA song.

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<v Speaker 2>About the time Kadafi gave them sam missiles. I think,

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<v Speaker 2>oh man.

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<v Speaker 3>I will say that the thing you're saying about how

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<v Speaker 3>bombing does it really work? I think this is true

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<v Speaker 3>for terrorism too.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean people have done a lot of it, and

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<v Speaker 3>I don't know that it's done.

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<v Speaker 2>It's I think it works actually really well. I mean

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<v Speaker 2>Osama bin Laden got what he wanted pretty much, which

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<v Speaker 2>is the continuing collapse of the United States. You can

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<v Speaker 2>you can trace that to nine to eleven. The IRA

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<v Speaker 2>largely got a lot of there. I mean, Northern Ireland's

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<v Speaker 2>still part of the British Commonwealth, but they got a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of stuff. I think, as data said in star

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<v Speaker 2>Trek's and Next Generation, terrorism can be a very effective strategy. Look,

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<v Speaker 2>that's not my conclusion, that's data from star Trek's conclusions.

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<v Speaker 2>Is Android take it up with him, you know. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>so talking of of terrorists and look, there's I don't

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<v Speaker 2>want this to come out as and this is sometimes

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<v Speaker 2>the way it sounds saying that like strategic bombing did

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<v Speaker 2>nothing in World War Two and that it was no

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<v Speaker 2>part of the German defeat. Right, that's not accurate. But

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<v Speaker 2>as we'll discuss what du Hay is claiming, what a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of the people believe is that strategic bombers and

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<v Speaker 2>a powerful enough air force render everything else unnecessary. And

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<v Speaker 2>that's only true in the context of nuclear war, and

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<v Speaker 2>even then it's not really true because subs are pretty

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<v Speaker 2>important and ground based missile launches, so it's not really

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<v Speaker 2>true with that right anyway, There's this group called the

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<v Speaker 2>bomber Mafia that Malcolm Gladwell wrote a book on that

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<v Speaker 2>had some terrible takes. But these are the guys who

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<v Speaker 2>are like advocating for the massive and expanded use of

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<v Speaker 2>like saturation bombing on civilian targets, you know. And Arthur Harris,

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<v Speaker 2>Bomber Harris and Curtis LeMay on the American side, are

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<v Speaker 2>two very prominent members of this group. Like many American officers,

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<v Speaker 2>Curtis LeMay came from humble origins. He is not a sir,

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<v Speaker 2>very different from his counterpart in the RAF. He was

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<v Speaker 2>born in nineteen oh six in Columbus, Ohio. His father

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<v Speaker 2>was a handyman who I'm going to guess had some

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<v Speaker 2>sort of maybe he was drinking. He's not stablely employed.

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<v Speaker 2>He is not able to keep the family fed. Right.

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<v Speaker 2>It's one of those kind of situations, and as a result,

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<v Speaker 2>LeMay grows up poor. His first job was, in Eric

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<v Speaker 2>Schlosser's words, shooting sparrows for a nickel each to feed

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<v Speaker 2>a neighbor's cat. So much backstory in that sentences the.

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<v Speaker 3>Most Midwest that shit I've ever heard to beat his cat.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, his mother, Curtis LeMay's mother was a servant and

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<v Speaker 2>the most stable earner during his childhood.

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<v Speaker 3>Uh wasn't shooting sparrows. I'm really shocked by this. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that didn't keep the family going. Uh. Le May

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<v Speaker 2>had to change schools in state several times. He was

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<v Speaker 2>always the new kid, and he was seldom fit in.

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<v Speaker 2>Schlosser describes him as shy, awkward, and bullied, and as

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<v Speaker 2>a way of fighting back against both kind of the

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<v Speaker 2>bullies and just the life he was born into. I

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<v Speaker 2>think having this father figure he doesn't have a shit together,

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<v Speaker 2>ma May becomes incredibly self disciplined. Right, This is sort

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<v Speaker 2>of his like defense mechanism. He is an excellent student.

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<v Speaker 2>He works constantly when he's not at school, and this

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<v Speaker 2>leads him to feel quote cut off from normal life

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<v Speaker 2>because he never has time for a childhood. He's just

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<v Speaker 2>kind of like working constantly and very concerned from an

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<v Speaker 2>early period with serious things. Right, he does not get

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<v Speaker 2>to be a kid. Too many kids have experience during

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<v Speaker 2>the fucking Great Depression, and today it's a bummer and

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<v Speaker 2>it's not gonna make him a better person. He does

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<v Speaker 2>save enough money to pay his way through Ohio State,

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<v Speaker 2>where he studies civil engineering. He goes to school every

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<v Speaker 2>day and works at a steel mill at night, usually

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<v Speaker 2>until two or three in the morning, at which point

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<v Speaker 2>he will sleep for a couple of hours and then

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<v Speaker 2>go back to school. That's his college experience.

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<v Speaker 3>Fuck yeah, so yeah, lots of people only sleep a

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<v Speaker 3>couple hours of the night at college, but for very different.

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<v Speaker 2>Different reason this has this kid's life is relentless. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>he graduates. He joins the Air Corps in nineteen twenty nine.

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<v Speaker 2>By this point, he has developed a love of hy

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<v Speaker 2>adrenaline activities. He likes to drive race cars, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>as a hobby, and he becomes a skilled pilot, But

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<v Speaker 2>he differentiates himself from many young officers because everyone wants

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<v Speaker 2>to be a fucking pilot. It is. It's still the

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<v Speaker 2>cool job in the Air Force. But by this point

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<v Speaker 2>planes are really new, you know, it's really cool, and

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<v Speaker 2>most young officers want to be fighter pilots because that's

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<v Speaker 2>the sexiest job than and now there's not really any

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<v Speaker 2>sexier job than fighter pilot. I'm sorry, you.

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<v Speaker 3>Get to be an ace?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, exactly who else gets to be an ace? One

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<v Speaker 2>of the things that differentiates LeMay from his colleagues is

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<v Speaker 2>that he wants to be a bomber pilot. He is

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<v Speaker 2>from the beginning not interested in fighter aircraft, he think,

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<v Speaker 2>and this is part and partly because he knows that

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<v Speaker 2>bombing is where the future is at now. I don't

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<v Speaker 2>know precisely when Curtis encountered General do Hayes's theories. I

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<v Speaker 2>don't know if he read his nineteen twenty one book

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<v Speaker 2>or if he was. It was just kind of like

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<v Speaker 2>cultural osmosis. Everyone is talking about do hay and strategic bombing,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, when you're in like the Air Force cadet school, right,

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<v Speaker 2>and so he just encounters a lot of that way yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>Everyone, I know it's always talking about DeMay and strategic bombing. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>in a non legally actionable way.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, we all love strategic bombing. It's it's

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<v Speaker 2>become like the popular all the cool kids are talking

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<v Speaker 2>about how many tons of bombs you need per square

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<v Speaker 2>acre in an urban environment to really, you know, clean

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<v Speaker 2>out the cities. Now the late generals thing. I can

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<v Speaker 2>say this about do Hay's impact on LeMay. It's influential

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<v Speaker 2>enough that during Vietnam, and for an idea of how

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<v Speaker 2>long this guy is in the field, LeMay is running

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<v Speaker 2>the US Air Force in Asia from World War II

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<v Speaker 2>to the start of Vietnam. He will name his strategy

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<v Speaker 2>for bombing North Vietnam the genteel dou Hay Plan. That's

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<v Speaker 2>like the nickname. Everyone refers to it as like, so

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<v Speaker 2>this is like the polite version of dou Hay's plan.

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<v Speaker 2>We're not going to kill quite as many civilians as

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<v Speaker 2>do Hay.

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<v Speaker 3>What have That's I only know a little bit about

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<v Speaker 3>bombing in Vietnam, and it didn't describe it.

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<v Speaker 2>He's not in charge of the whole time, but he

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<v Speaker 2>does get us started on a specific foot. As we'll

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<v Speaker 2>talk about. So LeMay becomes a bomber pilot in nineteen

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<v Speaker 2>thirty seven. By this point, he had already decided he

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<v Speaker 2>believed long rage bombing was the future of air power.

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<v Speaker 2>He became one of the best navigators in the country

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<v Speaker 2>and was stationed in Hawaii, where his career moved quickly.

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<v Speaker 2>Curtis became a relentless advocate of constant training and preparation.

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<v Speaker 2>He earned the nickname old iron Pants as a result. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>that's that's what is. That's what is, like the kind

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<v Speaker 2>of lovingly his crews call him when.

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<v Speaker 3>We're going down that tattooed on his knuckles or his

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<v Speaker 3>pant iron pants. Never mind, that doesn't.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah unfortunately, Yeah, thing you consider knuckles when they give

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<v Speaker 2>nicknames out. When World War Two started, he was a

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<v Speaker 2>major in command of a B seventeen flying fortress unit.

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<v Speaker 2>Curtis was quickly transferred into the eighth Air Force, and

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<v Speaker 2>he served under General Eker. This is the guy who

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<v Speaker 2>was wrong the Churchill about B seventeens not eating fighter escorts. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>a barrel Eker e A K E R.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, okay, like getting a little bit out, not.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, or like without the bee. Yeah. When he arrived

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<v Speaker 2>in Europe. This you. When LeMay arrived in Europe, the

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<v Speaker 2>US strategy, different from the British strategy, was daylight bombing raids.

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<v Speaker 2>LeMay's first big move was to point out that the

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<v Speaker 2>way the pilots were flying was getting them killed. Not

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<v Speaker 2>the Daylight Party couldn't do anything about that. But the

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<v Speaker 2>standard strategy among US bomber pilots was to zigzag to

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<v Speaker 2>avoid anti aircraft fire. This caused your bombs to be

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<v Speaker 2>really off target because she's zigzagging. May and the attitude

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<v Speaker 2>was that like, well, if you're just flying straight, there's

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<v Speaker 2>only a limited period of time in which you really

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<v Speaker 2>low that you're super vulnerable to anti aircraft fire. And

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<v Speaker 2>if you're just going straight, it's a death sentence. You're

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<v Speaker 2>just marching directly into the enemy guns. And LeMay argued, no, no, no,

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<v Speaker 2>flying straight is way safer because it's faster. You're out

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<v Speaker 2>in half the time. Zigzagging doesn't do all that much

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<v Speaker 2>to protect you, but getting out of there faster does.

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<v Speaker 2>So just going straight and then getting out of the

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<v Speaker 2>fucking death zone as quickly as you can is the

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<v Speaker 2>best way for us to do this. And he created

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<v Speaker 2>a new type of formation for bomber aircraft based on

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<v Speaker 2>this that was optim that was supposed to like basically

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<v Speaker 2>keep them with the optimal distance to offend each other

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<v Speaker 2>with their guns. Now, everything about this new tactic was

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<v Speaker 2>controversial among his pilots, and the way that LeMay stifled

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<v Speaker 2>any disagreement was promising to fly in the lead plane,

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<v Speaker 2>which was the one that would be in the most

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<v Speaker 2>danger if his theory was wrong. Right, So he'd be like.

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<v Speaker 3>I kind of like this guy.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, no, he's there's a lot about him that's likable,

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<v Speaker 2>especially here.

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<v Speaker 3>Hyland would love this man. Probably did love this man.

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<v Speaker 2>I believe Hyland was very much felt positively towards LeMay,

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<v Speaker 2>and his men love him because he's this kind of guy.

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<v Speaker 2>He'll have these ideas that are sometimes really dangerous, and

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<v Speaker 2>but he'll be like, I'll be in the first plane.

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<v Speaker 2>Like you can't say, I'm not just telling you guys

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<v Speaker 2>to do something like he is. He is leading from

0:11:21.800 --> 0:11:23.640
<v Speaker 2>the front, which is the thing you can do in

0:11:23.720 --> 0:11:26.760
<v Speaker 2>the Air Force that's not really possible in most other

0:11:26.800 --> 0:11:29.280
<v Speaker 2>branches at this point, not to the extent that LeMay

0:11:29.400 --> 0:11:32.319
<v Speaker 2>is doing it. Right, you know, another guy who's doing

0:11:32.360 --> 0:11:34.760
<v Speaker 2>basically the same thing as LeMay. Around this period of time,

0:11:35.200 --> 0:11:40.319
<v Speaker 2>actor James Stewart, Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, Jimmy Stewart actually

0:11:40.480 --> 0:11:43.000
<v Speaker 2>becomes a general and is like deeply involved in our

0:11:43.280 --> 0:11:47.520
<v Speaker 2>air strategy and Korea too. He's he's arguably one of

0:11:47.520 --> 0:11:50.720
<v Speaker 2>the highest body count like actors that has ever existed,

0:11:50.880 --> 0:11:53.920
<v Speaker 2>like like a list actors. He's not the only one

0:11:53.920 --> 0:11:55.000
<v Speaker 2>in contention, by the way.

0:11:55.080 --> 0:11:58.000
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, there's that Specops guy who's in Lord of the Rings.

0:11:58.559 --> 0:12:00.520
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean I'm talking about like

0:12:00.559 --> 0:12:04.640
<v Speaker 2>bomber pilots, and in terms of bodies, yeah, you have

0:12:04.679 --> 0:12:06.400
<v Speaker 2>a whole crop of these guys in World War Two

0:12:06.440 --> 0:12:08.760
<v Speaker 2>who are like big time actors and then like quit

0:12:08.880 --> 0:12:12.480
<v Speaker 2>to fly, be seventeens or whatever. It is a crazy

0:12:12.520 --> 0:12:16.480
<v Speaker 2>thing to have happened. Just imagine that if like we

0:12:16.559 --> 0:12:18.480
<v Speaker 2>had like a five year period where everyone had to

0:12:18.520 --> 0:12:20.960
<v Speaker 2>go to war and you're like, yeah, Timothy Chalamay killed

0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:25.400
<v Speaker 2>six thousand people. Yeah, yeah, just the most body stacked

0:12:25.400 --> 0:12:25.559
<v Speaker 2>by it.

0:12:26.080 --> 0:12:28.360
<v Speaker 3>Billie Eilish would lead from the front, That's all I say.

0:12:28.880 --> 0:12:32.199
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, I don't think the Rock serves, but Billie Eilish

0:12:32.240 --> 0:12:32.920
<v Speaker 2>for sure does.

0:12:33.240 --> 0:12:34.959
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I think he does it.

0:12:35.040 --> 0:12:37.959
<v Speaker 2>John Wayne, I mean he's like sixties in his fifties,

0:12:37.960 --> 0:12:42.480
<v Speaker 2>he shouldn't be going to war. Yeah. Anyway, LeMay's ideas work,

0:12:42.520 --> 0:12:44.480
<v Speaker 2>and they'd work well enough to have become sop for

0:12:44.559 --> 0:12:47.520
<v Speaker 2>all American bomber crews. In the theater, LeMay I talked

0:12:47.559 --> 0:12:50.240
<v Speaker 2>about that Reagansburg mission in the first episode to destroy

0:12:50.280 --> 0:12:53.280
<v Speaker 2>that ball bearing plant. LeMay is in charge. He is

0:12:53.320 --> 0:12:56.760
<v Speaker 2>the guy flying in lead for the Reagansburg mission, right, the.

0:12:56.679 --> 0:12:59.040
<v Speaker 3>One that's sixty out of three hundred and sixty.

0:12:59.000 --> 0:13:03.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yes, yeah, which leads us to something that we'll discuss.

0:13:03.400 --> 0:13:05.960
<v Speaker 2>But like, yeah, in that mission, there's so many people

0:13:06.000 --> 0:13:08.280
<v Speaker 2>die that the eighth test to curtail all their missions

0:13:08.320 --> 0:13:11.200
<v Speaker 2>for five months until they get fighter escorts. And this

0:13:11.240 --> 0:13:14.440
<v Speaker 2>brings about LeMay's second big success. Because of how many

0:13:14.520 --> 0:13:17.960
<v Speaker 2>crews are dying. Leadership, notice that flights are starting to

0:13:17.960 --> 0:13:20.520
<v Speaker 2>have a high abort rate. Pilots are pulling back and

0:13:20.559 --> 0:13:23.080
<v Speaker 2>aborting the mission before they get into the kill zone.

0:13:23.800 --> 0:13:26.800
<v Speaker 2>Robert McNamara, future Secretary of Defense for the most of

0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:29.640
<v Speaker 2>the Vietnam War, came to believe that this abort rate

0:13:29.760 --> 0:13:32.600
<v Speaker 2>was caused by cowardice, which he defined as pilots not

0:13:32.640 --> 0:13:35.760
<v Speaker 2>wanting to die because their CEO had fucked up. McNamara

0:13:35.920 --> 0:13:39.520
<v Speaker 2>credits LeMay with ending the abort problem. Quote, he was

0:13:39.559 --> 0:13:42.240
<v Speaker 2>the finest combat commander of any service I came across

0:13:42.240 --> 0:13:45.400
<v Speaker 2>in war. But he was extraordinarily belligerent, many thought brutal.

0:13:45.559 --> 0:13:47.600
<v Speaker 2>He got the report, he issued an order, he said,

0:13:47.679 --> 0:13:49.680
<v Speaker 2>I will be in the lead plan on every mission.

0:13:49.800 --> 0:13:51.840
<v Speaker 2>Any plane that takes off will go over the target,

0:13:51.920 --> 0:13:54.080
<v Speaker 2>or the crew will be court martialed. The abort rate

0:13:54.160 --> 0:13:56.760
<v Speaker 2>dropped overnight. Now that's the kind of commander he was

0:13:57.679 --> 0:14:01.360
<v Speaker 2>so seeing like the upsides and the downsides of this man.

0:14:01.559 --> 0:14:04.520
<v Speaker 2>He's like, not a lot of sympathy for Creus, not

0:14:04.559 --> 0:14:07.760
<v Speaker 2>wanting to die because somebody decided they don't need fighter escorts.

0:14:07.960 --> 0:14:10.160
<v Speaker 3>Yeah right, you know I read that other really good

0:14:10.160 --> 0:14:11.760
<v Speaker 3>book about this by Joseph Heller.

0:14:11.880 --> 0:14:15.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, so you can both see. I can see

0:14:15.280 --> 0:14:17.199
<v Speaker 2>why so many people admired him, and why he was

0:14:17.240 --> 0:14:20.160
<v Speaker 2>so beloved, especially by the people directly above him, and

0:14:20.320 --> 0:14:23.360
<v Speaker 2>why he was poppular with his cruise. And also, this

0:14:23.440 --> 0:14:26.360
<v Speaker 2>is a man who's got a dangerous brain. This is

0:14:26.400 --> 0:14:30.760
<v Speaker 2>a man who is really okay with people dying for principles, right,

0:14:31.080 --> 0:14:33.040
<v Speaker 2>And this is a man who has no trouble baking

0:14:33.120 --> 0:14:35.880
<v Speaker 2>human death into his operation plans, which is necessary in

0:14:35.920 --> 0:14:38.800
<v Speaker 2>the military at some level. Yeah, but he's maybe better

0:14:38.840 --> 0:14:42.040
<v Speaker 2>at it than you want someone to be maybe, right.

0:14:42.480 --> 0:14:44.720
<v Speaker 3>Oh, okay, I can see where this might go further

0:14:44.800 --> 0:14:46.720
<v Speaker 3>based on the subject of these weeks. Yep, uh huh.

0:14:46.800 --> 0:14:49.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And it was one of those things US bomber

0:14:49.360 --> 0:14:51.760
<v Speaker 2>Cruise suffered like a fifty percent killed in action rate

0:14:51.840 --> 0:14:54.320
<v Speaker 2>during this period of time. It's a very dangerous job,

0:14:54.440 --> 0:14:57.960
<v Speaker 2>and LeMay also has a reputation for being really dedicated

0:14:57.960 --> 0:15:01.440
<v Speaker 2>to his men's safety within like the degree that was possible,

0:15:01.480 --> 0:15:05.120
<v Speaker 2>which doesn't say as much objectively about how his plans

0:15:05.120 --> 0:15:07.400
<v Speaker 2>made men safer, and more how he made men feel

0:15:07.640 --> 0:15:11.960
<v Speaker 2>right like this, and there's a degree of like personal

0:15:12.000 --> 0:15:14.920
<v Speaker 2>skill here. You know, of all the officers in these episodes,

0:15:15.120 --> 0:15:17.720
<v Speaker 2>had you been in the military at the time, LeMay

0:15:17.800 --> 0:15:20.120
<v Speaker 2>is probably the guy you would have wanted to serve under,

0:15:20.360 --> 0:15:22.640
<v Speaker 2>not for logical reasons, but because that seems to have

0:15:22.640 --> 0:15:26.160
<v Speaker 2>been how his men felt about him. Right. Yeah. Now,

0:15:26.160 --> 0:15:29.000
<v Speaker 2>At the same time, his instincts made him perhaps the

0:15:29.040 --> 0:15:31.560
<v Speaker 2>worst possible guy to wind up with the job that

0:15:31.600 --> 0:15:34.520
<v Speaker 2>he gets, because he is the dude who directs the

0:15:34.560 --> 0:15:37.640
<v Speaker 2>formation of our grand nuclear strategy. He winds up in

0:15:37.720 --> 0:15:43.120
<v Speaker 2>charge of the Strategic Air Command. Correct fifty to fifty,

0:15:43.200 --> 0:15:43.760
<v Speaker 2>so that's good.

0:15:44.040 --> 0:15:44.280
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:15:44.440 --> 0:15:47.080
<v Speaker 2>LeMay is a guy who, from the start of his

0:15:47.120 --> 0:15:50.240
<v Speaker 2>career wants to reduce war to long range bombing. And

0:15:50.280 --> 0:15:52.200
<v Speaker 2>this is a guy who has shattered by the time

0:15:52.240 --> 0:15:54.880
<v Speaker 2>he's in charge of the Strategic Air Command. His sanity

0:15:54.960 --> 0:15:57.240
<v Speaker 2>is shattered because of what he's seen in World War Two.

0:15:57.440 --> 0:16:00.400
<v Speaker 2>You talked about the mission where everybody died. This is

0:16:00.440 --> 0:16:02.880
<v Speaker 2>a guy who has watched cities burn from the position

0:16:02.960 --> 0:16:04.920
<v Speaker 2>of setting them on fire. And he is a guy

0:16:04.960 --> 0:16:08.840
<v Speaker 2>who has repeatedly walked headfirst into a situation where thirty

0:16:08.960 --> 0:16:11.520
<v Speaker 2>to fifty percent of us are gonna die. Maybe you know,

0:16:12.080 --> 0:16:16.160
<v Speaker 2>like he's done that so much that he has during

0:16:16.280 --> 0:16:18.800
<v Speaker 2>like as a result of what happens to him in Europe,

0:16:19.800 --> 0:16:22.560
<v Speaker 2>his face gets paralyzed. It's Bell's palsy. He gets an

0:16:22.560 --> 0:16:25.840
<v Speaker 2>attack of Bell's palsy, and his face is completely paralyzed

0:16:25.880 --> 0:16:29.600
<v Speaker 2>after this point, so he like can't smile or show emotion.

0:16:31.320 --> 0:16:33.920
<v Speaker 3>To his least favorite things before that anyway, his.

0:16:33.920 --> 0:16:37.120
<v Speaker 2>Face is frozen forever. So he choose a cigar constantly

0:16:37.120 --> 0:16:39.240
<v Speaker 2>to hide the effects, to like animate his face so

0:16:39.280 --> 0:16:40.440
<v Speaker 2>it doesn't creep people out.

0:16:40.640 --> 0:16:43.800
<v Speaker 3>Like that's some, Like that's some, Like the world is

0:16:43.840 --> 0:16:45.000
<v Speaker 3>better fiction than fiction.

0:16:45.400 --> 0:16:47.280
<v Speaker 2>Exactly If you wrote this guy, people will be like,

0:16:47.320 --> 0:16:51.440
<v Speaker 2>this is not really a believable much. But no, he

0:16:51.520 --> 0:16:55.480
<v Speaker 2>was a he's a real ass dude. So he was

0:16:55.520 --> 0:16:57.280
<v Speaker 2>not the kind of man who could have read an

0:16:57.280 --> 0:16:59.960
<v Speaker 2>analysis of the Regensburg attack on that ball bearing place

0:17:00.160 --> 0:17:03.600
<v Speaker 2>that said, well, this didn't work and like maybe some

0:17:03.640 --> 0:17:05.760
<v Speaker 2>of our assumptions are wrong and a lot of guys

0:17:05.800 --> 0:17:09.000
<v Speaker 2>died for no good reason because like, we didn't execute

0:17:09.040 --> 0:17:11.040
<v Speaker 2>this as well as we could have. This was a

0:17:11.080 --> 0:17:12.960
<v Speaker 2>guy who was going to go to his grave believing

0:17:13.000 --> 0:17:15.320
<v Speaker 2>that area bombing not only worked, but it was the

0:17:15.359 --> 0:17:18.480
<v Speaker 2>only way to win a war. Right. He is basically

0:17:18.560 --> 0:17:21.560
<v Speaker 2>always convinced that do Hay was mostly right. And the

0:17:21.640 --> 0:17:24.320
<v Speaker 2>problem with this is that he hadn't been, as we

0:17:24.400 --> 0:17:27.280
<v Speaker 2>have discussed. And this is not just Robert, you know,

0:17:27.359 --> 0:17:30.520
<v Speaker 2>old left wing radical Robert saying that the strategic bombing

0:17:30.560 --> 0:17:34.040
<v Speaker 2>guy was that Reagansburg was a failure. Bernard Brodie of

0:17:34.080 --> 0:17:37.440
<v Speaker 2>the Rand Corporation would later conclude in a study of

0:17:37.520 --> 0:17:40.600
<v Speaker 2>dou Hay's theories in World War Two. If one disregards

0:17:40.600 --> 0:17:43.520
<v Speaker 2>for a moment the overall visions and considers only specific

0:17:43.520 --> 0:17:46.480
<v Speaker 2>assertions and theses, one has to conclude in World War

0:17:46.520 --> 0:17:48.840
<v Speaker 2>Two that do Hay proved wrong and almost every salient

0:17:48.880 --> 0:17:51.400
<v Speaker 2>point he made to assert the reverse, as is often done,

0:17:51.520 --> 0:17:56.080
<v Speaker 2>is to engage in propaganda, not analysis, and that's just

0:17:56.160 --> 0:17:59.520
<v Speaker 2>impossible to argue against. Bombing alone did not destroy the

0:17:59.560 --> 0:18:02.880
<v Speaker 2>third right. Its capacity to wage war was degraded, not

0:18:03.040 --> 0:18:04.960
<v Speaker 2>just through bombing, but through a mix of air, ground,

0:18:04.960 --> 0:18:08.600
<v Speaker 2>and naval warfare. Like there's a lot of well, after

0:18:08.680 --> 0:18:12.199
<v Speaker 2>nineteen forty four, while we were strategically bombing German cities,

0:18:12.400 --> 0:18:14.679
<v Speaker 2>their war production finally collapsed, and it's like we were

0:18:14.720 --> 0:18:17.800
<v Speaker 2>also taking a lot of territory from them, like they

0:18:17.800 --> 0:18:22.320
<v Speaker 2>were losing ground to other things were happening, and the

0:18:22.359 --> 0:18:24.320
<v Speaker 2>air power played a role in us being able to

0:18:24.359 --> 0:18:26.919
<v Speaker 2>take ground. But it's a much more complicated picture than

0:18:26.960 --> 0:18:29.119
<v Speaker 2>do Hay and his advocates are making. It was not

0:18:29.440 --> 0:18:32.440
<v Speaker 2>just strategic long range bombing, and that's what do Haye

0:18:32.600 --> 0:18:34.760
<v Speaker 2>was saying, right, You can't just say, well, bombing was

0:18:34.800 --> 0:18:37.280
<v Speaker 2>a useful part of the overall no, no, no, that's not

0:18:37.359 --> 0:18:39.720
<v Speaker 2>what do Hay was claiming. And all of these air

0:18:39.720 --> 0:18:41.400
<v Speaker 2>Force guys are going to be arguing for the rest

0:18:41.400 --> 0:18:44.080
<v Speaker 2>of their careers. All we need is an air force, right,

0:18:44.560 --> 0:18:46.160
<v Speaker 2>that's a big part of this.

0:18:46.680 --> 0:18:47.679
<v Speaker 3>Is this the bomber mafia.

0:18:47.760 --> 0:18:51.040
<v Speaker 2>They're just like, yeah, this is like and their descendants

0:18:51.080 --> 0:18:52.680
<v Speaker 2>that this is a big thing for the next half

0:18:52.720 --> 0:18:56.639
<v Speaker 2>a century and longer, and like air Force arguing that

0:18:56.680 --> 0:18:58.520
<v Speaker 2>we don't really need as much of the other stuff

0:18:58.560 --> 0:19:02.560
<v Speaker 2>because air force handle it can it can fix every problem,

0:19:02.640 --> 0:19:05.600
<v Speaker 2>right and in war, through war, we don't get what

0:19:05.640 --> 0:19:07.720
<v Speaker 2>we want through just bombing people. Right.

0:19:08.119 --> 0:19:10.400
<v Speaker 3>Well, what you and I learned is that you could

0:19:10.400 --> 0:19:13.240
<v Speaker 3>throw bombs at most problems and that would help alleviate

0:19:13.280 --> 0:19:15.760
<v Speaker 3>the problems, but you also need someone with a spiked stick.

0:19:15.960 --> 0:19:19.119
<v Speaker 2>Yes, we did learn that in our Pathfinder game that

0:19:19.160 --> 0:19:21.280
<v Speaker 2>we played on the It could Happen Here book Club

0:19:21.960 --> 0:19:25.160
<v Speaker 2>special weekend episodes that you can listen to right now, folks. Yeah,

0:19:25.200 --> 0:19:28.240
<v Speaker 2>So it's also kind of worth noting that a lot

0:19:28.280 --> 0:19:29.960
<v Speaker 2>of these strategies to like, well, all we need to

0:19:30.000 --> 0:19:32.359
<v Speaker 2>do is bomb these cities and that'll destroy x amount

0:19:32.359 --> 0:19:35.040
<v Speaker 2>of factories and that will destroy German military production. It

0:19:35.080 --> 0:19:37.280
<v Speaker 2>assumes an enemy, and this will later be a problem

0:19:37.320 --> 0:19:40.040
<v Speaker 2>with our plans for nuclear war. They're always built assuming

0:19:40.080 --> 0:19:43.120
<v Speaker 2>an enemy who doesn't adapt or change as we do

0:19:43.200 --> 0:19:46.400
<v Speaker 2>things to them, because like Germans, yeah, we knock out

0:19:46.440 --> 0:19:50.480
<v Speaker 2>some factories, so they decentralize their factories and they make

0:19:50.520 --> 0:19:53.240
<v Speaker 2>them less vulnerable to bombing, so that they're assembling things

0:19:53.240 --> 0:19:57.199
<v Speaker 2>in pieces and each individual's target is less important to

0:19:57.240 --> 0:20:00.479
<v Speaker 2>the whole. Right, there's a bunch of the that with

0:20:00.560 --> 0:20:03.159
<v Speaker 2>like manufacture of a bunch of different material, and German

0:20:03.640 --> 0:20:06.520
<v Speaker 2>air defenses remained pretty good until late in the war.

0:20:06.840 --> 0:20:09.119
<v Speaker 2>Like dou Hay is just really wrong on all of

0:20:09.160 --> 0:20:12.119
<v Speaker 2>this stuff. Now, by nineteen forty five, over in the

0:20:12.160 --> 0:20:15.199
<v Speaker 2>Pacific theater, similar lessons had been learned visa VI the

0:20:15.200 --> 0:20:18.199
<v Speaker 2>wisdom of dou Hay's theories. Japan's bold air attack at

0:20:18.200 --> 0:20:20.719
<v Speaker 2>Pearl Harbor had been a tactical success, but number one

0:20:21.040 --> 0:20:23.560
<v Speaker 2>was not long range strategic bombing. These were planes that

0:20:23.600 --> 0:20:26.520
<v Speaker 2>got there on aircraft carriers as part of a naval attack.

0:20:26.720 --> 0:20:29.719
<v Speaker 2>It was pretty important to the overall thing, and it

0:20:29.760 --> 0:20:32.960
<v Speaker 2>didn't knock the US out famously as a combatant. It

0:20:33.000 --> 0:20:34.680
<v Speaker 2>really really just kind of pissed us off.

0:20:34.760 --> 0:20:37.879
<v Speaker 3>You know, yeah, were we going to join the war anyway?

0:20:37.880 --> 0:20:39.400
<v Speaker 3>Do you think I mean.

0:20:39.640 --> 0:20:46.000
<v Speaker 2>We FDR really wanted to. I's for one thing. Germany

0:20:46.040 --> 0:20:49.280
<v Speaker 2>getting involved wasn't a necessity. Hitler declared war on US

0:20:49.280 --> 0:20:53.080
<v Speaker 2>once Japan. We declared war in Japan, right, and he

0:20:53.119 --> 0:20:56.880
<v Speaker 2>didn't really need to go all out on Japan's behalf.

0:20:57.040 --> 0:20:59.159
<v Speaker 2>I'd say that was probably a mistake, but he was

0:20:59.200 --> 0:21:02.080
<v Speaker 2>pretty pretty arrogant at that point in time. Yeah, maybe

0:21:02.119 --> 0:21:04.840
<v Speaker 2>we would have gotten involved with Like again, FDR really

0:21:04.880 --> 0:21:07.240
<v Speaker 2>wanted to, so I guess that's probably the smart money,

0:21:07.240 --> 0:21:09.760
<v Speaker 2>as he would have figured some way out. But but

0:21:09.840 --> 0:21:12.560
<v Speaker 2>this is the way Harbor figure out. Yeah, we Japan

0:21:12.600 --> 0:21:14.920
<v Speaker 2>didn't need to do a Pearl Harbor and it didn't

0:21:14.960 --> 0:21:18.240
<v Speaker 2>help them right now, they did a Pearl Harbor. This

0:21:18.280 --> 0:21:21.320
<v Speaker 2>is again to get back to how the same logic

0:21:22.119 --> 0:21:24.719
<v Speaker 2>that could really fuck us in terms of a global

0:21:24.800 --> 0:21:27.720
<v Speaker 2>nuclear war that kills everybody is part of why I

0:21:27.720 --> 0:21:30.200
<v Speaker 2>think it's reasonable to fear that is the same logic

0:21:30.240 --> 0:21:32.760
<v Speaker 2>has repeatedly gotten humans in trouble in the past. The

0:21:32.840 --> 0:21:35.440
<v Speaker 2>logic behind the attack at Pearl Harbor is the US

0:21:35.560 --> 0:21:38.600
<v Speaker 2>is already fucking with us. Right by by throttling our

0:21:38.640 --> 0:21:41.320
<v Speaker 2>access to stuff like fuel, They're going We're going to

0:21:41.359 --> 0:21:43.919
<v Speaker 2>wind up fighting them anyway. It's inevitable, and so we

0:21:43.960 --> 0:21:46.919
<v Speaker 2>need to launch a first strike to stop their capacity

0:21:47.040 --> 0:21:50.600
<v Speaker 2>to hurt us, you know, Like it's the it's the

0:21:50.640 --> 0:21:54.160
<v Speaker 2>same logic, right that, well, we have fight, some sort

0:21:54.160 --> 0:21:56.359
<v Speaker 2>of conflict is inevitable, so we might as well hit

0:21:56.400 --> 0:21:58.120
<v Speaker 2>them first. It's our only chance to survive.

0:21:58.560 --> 0:22:00.960
<v Speaker 3>And I like, it's a weird comparison to this, Like

0:22:01.119 --> 0:22:03.480
<v Speaker 3>I spent a while kind of hanging out more on

0:22:03.520 --> 0:22:07.240
<v Speaker 3>the streets when I was younger, and the idea that

0:22:07.400 --> 0:22:09.560
<v Speaker 3>like the way to survive the sort of like rough

0:22:09.560 --> 0:22:11.720
<v Speaker 3>and tumble life of living under bridges or whatever is

0:22:11.720 --> 0:22:15.399
<v Speaker 3>to like strike first is entirely incorrect. That is like

0:22:16.000 --> 0:22:21.000
<v Speaker 3>absolutely how everyone would like instead, Like I think about

0:22:21.000 --> 0:22:22.600
<v Speaker 3>this time, you know, like because like you know, sometimes

0:22:22.640 --> 0:22:24.800
<v Speaker 3>when you're outside, people like randomly, drunkenly try to fight

0:22:24.840 --> 0:22:28.680
<v Speaker 3>you or something, right, and it's like literally learning I'm

0:22:28.720 --> 0:22:31.760
<v Speaker 3>not advocating passivism here, but literally learning. If someone just

0:22:31.880 --> 0:22:33.320
<v Speaker 3>is looking for a fight and they punch you and

0:22:33.359 --> 0:22:40.600
<v Speaker 3>you ignore them, that ends it, at least in my experience. Right,

0:22:41.400 --> 0:22:43.280
<v Speaker 3>But as soon as actually trying to destroy you. You have

0:22:43.359 --> 0:22:46.280
<v Speaker 3>to do something. So that's just like the whole concept. Sorry,

0:22:46.320 --> 0:22:48.119
<v Speaker 3>I'm just like thinking a lot about this. Is it

0:22:48.200 --> 0:22:51.680
<v Speaker 3>scales up next into guns and then into nukes or yeah,

0:22:51.680 --> 0:22:52.720
<v Speaker 3>you know, wars or whatever.

0:22:53.160 --> 0:22:54.959
<v Speaker 2>The part of the problem with this kind of logic

0:22:55.119 --> 0:22:59.760
<v Speaker 2>is that it's logic that's true. Sometimes we've seen it

0:22:59.800 --> 0:23:04.720
<v Speaker 2>be true sometimes right like the sometimes being from the

0:23:04.720 --> 0:23:06.960
<v Speaker 2>Cold War up to the present moment, the strategy of

0:23:06.960 --> 0:23:10.520
<v Speaker 2>deterrence has worked, right, But that doesn't mean it always

0:23:10.560 --> 0:23:14.560
<v Speaker 2>will right because nothing, No, there's no one strategy that

0:23:14.600 --> 0:23:17.840
<v Speaker 2>fits every scenario. And the problem is with nukes you

0:23:17.840 --> 0:23:20.720
<v Speaker 2>don't really have you don't have room to do the

0:23:20.800 --> 0:23:25.280
<v Speaker 2>less fucked up apocalyptic scenario that's not really an option.

0:23:26.880 --> 0:23:29.040
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, you just take part of the problem. If you

0:23:29.080 --> 0:23:31.359
<v Speaker 3>take one nuke on the nose as a country, you

0:23:31.400 --> 0:23:34.320
<v Speaker 3>can survive that. But then it's like it just what

0:23:34.400 --> 0:23:36.679
<v Speaker 3>is It just destroys the deterrence effect and so then

0:23:36.720 --> 0:23:38.399
<v Speaker 3>everyone's like, all right, well, it's like free game on

0:23:38.480 --> 0:23:39.439
<v Speaker 3>nuk in you or whatever.

0:23:39.800 --> 0:23:41.879
<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean, you know that's what the country would say.

0:23:41.880 --> 0:23:45.200
<v Speaker 2>It would be political suicide probably for whatever party didn't

0:23:45.240 --> 0:23:47.399
<v Speaker 2>respond with a nuke, you know, if you're talking from

0:23:47.440 --> 0:23:51.080
<v Speaker 2>the US standpoint, if they got nuked, but also being

0:23:51.200 --> 0:23:54.119
<v Speaker 2>willing to take a hit is the only way to

0:23:54.240 --> 0:23:57.040
<v Speaker 2>stop the doom luke that kills everybody. Yeah, and that

0:23:57.119 --> 0:24:00.880
<v Speaker 2>also that also predisposes you're just having one nuke at you, right,

0:24:00.960 --> 0:24:03.600
<v Speaker 2>which is the most like and I think one of

0:24:03.600 --> 0:24:06.679
<v Speaker 2>the things that does scary most is not and this

0:24:06.720 --> 0:24:10.040
<v Speaker 2>is something that could easily turn into the apocalyptic scenario,

0:24:10.400 --> 0:24:12.680
<v Speaker 2>but something that starts as like and this is kind

0:24:12.720 --> 0:24:16.680
<v Speaker 2>of what the book Nuclear War Jacobson thea Like talks about.

0:24:16.680 --> 0:24:20.480
<v Speaker 2>But like, essentially you get like a nuclear January sixth, right,

0:24:21.000 --> 0:24:24.800
<v Speaker 2>one nuke goes up, gets launched at or goes off

0:24:24.840 --> 0:24:28.200
<v Speaker 2>in one country because of some sort of like weird

0:24:28.600 --> 0:24:33.240
<v Speaker 2>stupid fuck up that isn't going to be repeatable necessarily,

0:24:33.280 --> 0:24:36.600
<v Speaker 2>Like it's easy to learn from. You could stop subsequent ones,

0:24:37.080 --> 0:24:38.960
<v Speaker 2>but in the immediate wake of the fuck up, this

0:24:39.119 --> 0:24:42.040
<v Speaker 2>precedent is set that number one, there's a really high

0:24:42.119 --> 0:24:44.919
<v Speaker 2>chance that it just immediately leads to everyone shooting everything

0:24:44.960 --> 0:24:48.320
<v Speaker 2>because like nobody has perfect data on what's happening. They

0:24:48.359 --> 0:24:50.400
<v Speaker 2>just know that like a nuke has gone off, and

0:24:50.960 --> 0:24:55.240
<v Speaker 2>everyone gets so like, if the country that gets nuked

0:24:55.520 --> 0:24:57.760
<v Speaker 2>is becomes convinced any point they're under attack, they have

0:24:57.760 --> 0:24:59.879
<v Speaker 2>about six minutes to choose to launch all of the

0:25:00.000 --> 0:25:02.000
<v Speaker 2>missiles or not right. Right, That's how it works for

0:25:02.080 --> 0:25:05.040
<v Speaker 2>a US president. It's no different as far as we

0:25:05.080 --> 0:25:10.720
<v Speaker 2>know really for Russia's president. Right, if that nuke goes

0:25:10.760 --> 0:25:14.119
<v Speaker 2>off anywhere, you're going to have like six minutes to

0:25:14.280 --> 0:25:17.520
<v Speaker 2>figure out do I end the world over this or not?

0:25:18.280 --> 0:25:18.520
<v Speaker 3>Right?

0:25:19.359 --> 0:25:21.760
<v Speaker 2>And that's probably bad for us.

0:25:22.240 --> 0:25:24.440
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I think it's a bad system. I'm just gonna

0:25:24.440 --> 0:25:25.680
<v Speaker 3>go ahead and say.

0:25:25.920 --> 0:25:28.560
<v Speaker 2>Probably one person in any country shouldn't get to make

0:25:28.600 --> 0:25:30.760
<v Speaker 2>that call. Probably no one should have to make that

0:25:30.840 --> 0:25:33.520
<v Speaker 2>call in six minutes. But that's the reality of the

0:25:33.640 --> 0:25:36.080
<v Speaker 2>of the technical reality of the systems we built. They

0:25:36.119 --> 0:25:40.960
<v Speaker 2>don't have a lot of wiggle room, which is a problem.

0:25:41.080 --> 0:25:43.040
<v Speaker 3>I'm glad I'm not the one in charge of designing

0:25:43.040 --> 0:25:43.480
<v Speaker 3>the system.

0:25:43.520 --> 0:25:48.880
<v Speaker 2>To be clear, No, Sophie is, and that's why it act.

0:25:48.880 --> 0:25:49.399
<v Speaker 3>She works for me.

0:25:49.480 --> 0:25:52.240
<v Speaker 2>Behind the Bastards has the most powerful nuclear deterrent of

0:25:52.280 --> 0:25:53.560
<v Speaker 2>any podcast in the game.

0:25:53.800 --> 0:25:55.840
<v Speaker 1>You know, damn straight motherfuckers.

0:25:55.960 --> 0:25:58.920
<v Speaker 2>If the if the Pods save guys launch an ICBM,

0:25:59.160 --> 0:26:01.040
<v Speaker 2>we can have a level one hundred missiles in the

0:26:01.080 --> 0:26:02.399
<v Speaker 2>air in under six minutes.

0:26:03.000 --> 0:26:05.800
<v Speaker 3>This is why there's that new cool Zone media podcast,

0:26:06.160 --> 0:26:08.119
<v Speaker 3>The Bastards Behind Behind the Bastards.

0:26:08.600 --> 0:26:12.200
<v Speaker 2>Wow, how did Robert assemble the most powerful nuclear arsenal

0:26:12.280 --> 0:26:13.280
<v Speaker 2>in the podcasting game?

0:26:13.640 --> 0:26:15.960
<v Speaker 3>And Sophie The answer, Sophie, we all have.

0:26:16.040 --> 0:26:18.800
<v Speaker 2>The answer is Sophie bribed a guy at Fort Leonard Wood. Yeah,

0:26:19.320 --> 0:26:29.840
<v Speaker 2>and it was surprisingly easy. Anyway, here's ads. We're back

0:26:30.520 --> 0:26:34.000
<v Speaker 2>and we're talking about where we are in nineteen forty five. Right,

0:26:34.840 --> 0:26:39.520
<v Speaker 2>We've been fighting the Japanese military for several years now.

0:26:39.960 --> 0:26:44.160
<v Speaker 2>There's been this like really brutal island hopping campaign, several

0:26:44.200 --> 0:26:47.280
<v Speaker 2>massive naval engagements, and it's led to a situation my

0:26:47.320 --> 0:26:49.639
<v Speaker 2>g oh yeah, which part of it?

0:26:50.080 --> 0:26:52.679
<v Speaker 3>He was a submariner in the oh sassific.

0:26:52.800 --> 0:26:53.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that sounds like it sucked.

0:26:54.200 --> 0:26:56.520
<v Speaker 3>Oh yeah. He's a torpedoman. And literally the fact that

0:26:56.560 --> 0:26:59.919
<v Speaker 3>I exist is an accident of he stepped on a

0:27:00.240 --> 0:27:03.240
<v Speaker 3>college application while repairing torpedoes on an island, and he

0:27:03.320 --> 0:27:05.439
<v Speaker 3>filled it out and he sent it out and then

0:27:05.440 --> 0:27:06.840
<v Speaker 3>they were like, yeah, all right, we're gonna send you

0:27:06.880 --> 0:27:09.920
<v Speaker 3>to co be an engineer. And then his submarine didn't

0:27:09.920 --> 0:27:14.160
<v Speaker 3>come back after he left, so he who it fell

0:27:14.200 --> 0:27:16.280
<v Speaker 3>to the bottom of the sea. It's never been recovered.

0:27:16.359 --> 0:27:17.760
<v Speaker 3>No one ever knows what happened to it.

0:27:18.160 --> 0:27:21.159
<v Speaker 2>And probably fine then I'm sure they're probably around a

0:27:21.160 --> 0:27:21.879
<v Speaker 2>farm up state.

0:27:22.160 --> 0:27:27.400
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, all of his old buddies. Yeah. Anyway, yeah,

0:27:27.640 --> 0:27:28.680
<v Speaker 3>South Pacific.

0:27:28.560 --> 0:27:33.000
<v Speaker 2>South Pacific. So by nineteen forty five, you know, we've

0:27:33.080 --> 0:27:35.720
<v Speaker 2>gone through a version of the same lessons that all

0:27:35.760 --> 0:27:38.679
<v Speaker 2>of these guys learn in Europe, which is that a

0:27:38.680 --> 0:27:41.560
<v Speaker 2>lot of what Douhey had said it doesn't really work out, right,

0:27:42.480 --> 0:27:45.040
<v Speaker 2>we can't just bomb our way out of this. Naval

0:27:45.080 --> 0:27:47.600
<v Speaker 2>power is important, and in fact, the aviation that's most

0:27:47.600 --> 0:27:50.520
<v Speaker 2>influential in the early stage of the Pacific campaign or

0:27:50.520 --> 0:27:53.800
<v Speaker 2>not long range bombers, it's navy tactical aircraft, right, because

0:27:53.800 --> 0:27:56.080
<v Speaker 2>that's a lot of these naval engagements come down to

0:27:56.600 --> 0:28:00.639
<v Speaker 2>our carrier group finds their carrier group, and we fucking

0:28:00.760 --> 0:28:03.240
<v Speaker 2>killed the shit out of them with planes. But they're

0:28:03.240 --> 0:28:06.399
<v Speaker 2>not doing like long range strategic bombing. You know, this

0:28:06.560 --> 0:28:11.600
<v Speaker 2>is like really close combat in aeronautical terms, and it's

0:28:11.680 --> 0:28:14.800
<v Speaker 2>pretty fucked up, and there's still a lot of work

0:28:14.840 --> 0:28:17.120
<v Speaker 2>for infantry, right, No, matter how much, because we are

0:28:17.200 --> 0:28:20.760
<v Speaker 2>bombing these islands like Okinawa, and we're shelling them before

0:28:20.800 --> 0:28:23.080
<v Speaker 2>we send in ground troops. But no amount of bombing

0:28:23.119 --> 0:28:26.160
<v Speaker 2>and shelling is sufficient to clear all of the infantry out.

0:28:26.240 --> 0:28:29.080
<v Speaker 2>Soldiers are able to you know, they've got these bunker

0:28:29.160 --> 0:28:31.720
<v Speaker 2>networks that the Japanese Army has built. These are sufficient

0:28:31.840 --> 0:28:34.200
<v Speaker 2>enough that like we're not able to bomb them out

0:28:34.280 --> 0:28:38.520
<v Speaker 2>right the future and past of war, right, tunnels always

0:28:38.600 --> 0:28:43.160
<v Speaker 2>work really well. And this is again it's more refutation

0:28:43.240 --> 0:28:45.000
<v Speaker 2>of this. All we need are bombers, Like, no, you

0:28:45.120 --> 0:28:47.880
<v Speaker 2>keep needing to send an infantry with fucking knives to

0:28:47.920 --> 0:28:50.880
<v Speaker 2>clear guys out right, we haven't made the fucking knife

0:28:50.960 --> 0:28:54.720
<v Speaker 2>obsolete by nineteen forty five, like we're not doing everything

0:28:54.760 --> 0:29:00.000
<v Speaker 2>with bombers. Duhey and his advocates had been irrationally optimistic.

0:29:01.240 --> 0:29:04.600
<v Speaker 2>So that said, by like early nineteen forty five, we've

0:29:04.920 --> 0:29:08.680
<v Speaker 2>isolated the Japanese home islands. And Colonel Rassioni and his

0:29:08.800 --> 0:29:12.240
<v Speaker 2>piece summarizes the success of strategic bombing prior to nineteen

0:29:12.280 --> 0:29:15.960
<v Speaker 2>forty five of Japan's heartland. Quote General Hansel commanding and

0:29:16.000 --> 0:29:18.720
<v Speaker 2>directing bombing attacks on Japan and still unaware despite his

0:29:18.800 --> 0:29:22.320
<v Speaker 2>extensive European experience that precision bombing was a myth, attempted

0:29:22.320 --> 0:29:25.640
<v Speaker 2>to use it to destroy Japan's military industrial capacity. After

0:29:25.720 --> 0:29:29.080
<v Speaker 2>three months of intensive precision operations, his B twenty nine

0:29:29.120 --> 0:29:32.480
<v Speaker 2>bomber force had destroyed none of the designated high priority targets,

0:29:32.640 --> 0:29:36.400
<v Speaker 2>a failure that brought about his dismissal. Right, three months

0:29:36.440 --> 0:29:40.440
<v Speaker 2>of precision bombing, the Air Force is not able to

0:29:40.480 --> 0:29:43.040
<v Speaker 2>destroy any of their high value industrial targets. Right, it

0:29:43.160 --> 0:29:46.080
<v Speaker 2>just doesn't work. So they bring in Curtis LeMay. And again,

0:29:46.160 --> 0:29:48.960
<v Speaker 2>LeMay is neither of these guys. Both these guys are.

0:29:49.040 --> 0:29:53.040
<v Speaker 2>Both Hansel and LeMay are advocates of strategic bombing. Hansel

0:29:53.120 --> 0:29:55.760
<v Speaker 2>is just saying it has to be tactical, it has

0:29:55.800 --> 0:29:58.280
<v Speaker 2>to be like, you know, precision bombing. Sorry, and LeMay

0:29:58.360 --> 0:30:00.440
<v Speaker 2>is saying, nah, you just got to fuck up everything, right,

0:30:00.880 --> 0:30:04.000
<v Speaker 2>And his job is basically esque direct this air war

0:30:04.080 --> 0:30:06.800
<v Speaker 2>to break the back of the Japanese without US needing

0:30:06.840 --> 0:30:09.320
<v Speaker 2>to actually send in ground troops to invade the Home Islands,

0:30:09.560 --> 0:30:12.040
<v Speaker 2>and he embarks on the most terrible bombing campaign of

0:30:12.040 --> 0:30:15.400
<v Speaker 2>World War Two. As Rassioni describes, it was General Curtis

0:30:15.480 --> 0:30:18.120
<v Speaker 2>LeMay who put duhayes theories to the ultimate test, all

0:30:18.160 --> 0:30:21.360
<v Speaker 2>of Japan's major cities except for Hiroshima and Nagasaki were

0:30:21.360 --> 0:30:25.600
<v Speaker 2>burned out with conventional weapons. LeMay starts his job commanding

0:30:25.600 --> 0:30:28.080
<v Speaker 2>the air war against Japan. He is the youngest general

0:30:28.120 --> 0:30:30.200
<v Speaker 2>in US history. He gets the rank at age thirty

0:30:30.240 --> 0:30:33.400
<v Speaker 2>six after his work in Europe. The fire bombing of

0:30:33.440 --> 0:30:36.840
<v Speaker 2>Tokyo is his idea, like that is his plan entirely,

0:30:37.240 --> 0:30:39.840
<v Speaker 2>and when he takes the job he tells his deputies

0:30:40.120 --> 0:30:43.280
<v Speaker 2>Japan will burn if I can get fire on it.

0:30:44.040 --> 0:30:47.080
<v Speaker 2>And the book Commander Control Schlosser writes LeMay was involved

0:30:47.080 --> 0:30:49.240
<v Speaker 2>in almost every aspect of the plan, from selecting the

0:30:49.240 --> 0:30:52.560
<v Speaker 2>mix of bombs magnesium for high temperatures, napalm for splatter,

0:30:52.800 --> 0:30:55.360
<v Speaker 2>to choosing a bomb pattern that could start a firestorm.

0:30:55.800 --> 0:30:59.080
<v Speaker 2>He is very nuts and bolts as a commander, he

0:30:59.160 --> 0:31:02.840
<v Speaker 2>is the personal architect. This is his great work is

0:31:02.880 --> 0:31:05.640
<v Speaker 2>the fire bombing of Tokyo, and he plans it to

0:31:05.840 --> 0:31:10.960
<v Speaker 2>like the most intimate degree. Perission's article, LeMay studied the

0:31:10.960 --> 0:31:14.080
<v Speaker 2>mission reports and reconnaissance photographs, realized that the Japanese had

0:31:14.080 --> 0:31:16.280
<v Speaker 2>almost no air defense left, and sent three hundred and

0:31:16.360 --> 0:31:19.760
<v Speaker 2>twenty five pilots loaded with jellied gasoline fire bomb clusters

0:31:19.880 --> 0:31:22.320
<v Speaker 2>over Tokyo in the early hours of March tenth, nineteen

0:31:22.400 --> 0:31:25.200
<v Speaker 2>forty five. You're going to deliver the biggest firecracker the

0:31:25.280 --> 0:31:27.840
<v Speaker 2>Japanese have ever seen, he told his crews. As he

0:31:27.880 --> 0:31:31.400
<v Speaker 2>waited impatiently for the bombers to return, he confided to McElway,

0:31:31.400 --> 0:31:34.160
<v Speaker 2>who's like his adjutant, Basically, in a war, you've got

0:31:34.160 --> 0:31:36.000
<v Speaker 2>to keep at least one punch ahead of the other

0:31:36.040 --> 0:31:38.200
<v Speaker 2>guy all the time. A war is a tough kind

0:31:38.200 --> 0:31:40.720
<v Speaker 2>of proposition. If you don't get the enemy, he gets you.

0:31:41.080 --> 0:31:43.320
<v Speaker 2>I think we've figured out a punch he's not expecting

0:31:43.360 --> 0:31:46.800
<v Speaker 2>this time, and the mission was a success. The US

0:31:46.840 --> 0:31:50.360
<v Speaker 2>Strategic Bombing Survey estimated that quote probably more persons lost

0:31:50.400 --> 0:31:52.880
<v Speaker 2>their lives by fire at Tokyo in a six hour

0:31:52.960 --> 0:31:55.360
<v Speaker 2>period than at any time in the history of man.

0:31:56.000 --> 0:31:58.920
<v Speaker 2>More than ninety thousand civilians are killed and roughly a

0:31:58.960 --> 0:32:01.680
<v Speaker 2>million are made homeless in a one night of bombing.

0:32:02.360 --> 0:32:06.520
<v Speaker 3>Oh yeah, yeah, wait a second woo.

0:32:07.920 --> 0:32:11.000
<v Speaker 2>Uh LeMay continues to order more fire bombings after this,

0:32:11.160 --> 0:32:13.720
<v Speaker 2>consuming hundreds of thousands of men, will, women and children

0:32:13.760 --> 0:32:16.560
<v Speaker 2>with flames and the fact that we need to keep

0:32:16.600 --> 0:32:20.000
<v Speaker 2>doing this maybe is a sign that, like some of

0:32:20.040 --> 0:32:24.440
<v Speaker 2>your attitudes about bombing aren't as accurate as you'd want.

0:32:24.560 --> 0:32:27.520
<v Speaker 2>Certainly do Hay has been proven wrong by a pretty

0:32:27.560 --> 0:32:30.880
<v Speaker 2>grand factor. But like German will didn't break until Hitler

0:32:30.880 --> 0:32:33.840
<v Speaker 2>shot himself, and the Japanese are still We just incinerated

0:32:33.880 --> 0:32:37.080
<v Speaker 2>their entire capital from the sky. We killed more human

0:32:37.120 --> 0:32:39.240
<v Speaker 2>beings in an hour than have ever been killed in

0:32:39.360 --> 0:32:42.840
<v Speaker 2>history in a similar period of time, probably, and they're

0:32:43.000 --> 0:32:48.080
<v Speaker 2>they're still swinging. Uh. Maybe maybe we've got some assumptions

0:32:48.080 --> 0:32:51.000
<v Speaker 2>here that aren't entirely correct. Now, that is not how

0:32:51.040 --> 0:32:53.480
<v Speaker 2>anyone thinks. One of the men planning these raids with

0:32:53.560 --> 0:32:56.719
<v Speaker 2>LeMay was a close subordinate of his General Thomas Sarsfield.

0:32:56.800 --> 0:32:59.440
<v Speaker 2>Power is literally general power. Yes, he has a g

0:32:59.600 --> 0:33:03.200
<v Speaker 2>I Joe name, and General power is going to help

0:33:03.280 --> 0:33:06.200
<v Speaker 2>to build the nuclear doomsday machine we all sleep alongside today,

0:33:06.320 --> 0:33:08.520
<v Speaker 2>right like he is one of the architects of this,

0:33:08.640 --> 0:33:10.960
<v Speaker 2>alongside Lea May. And the fact that he has a

0:33:11.040 --> 0:33:13.320
<v Speaker 2>name the name of a G I jo character belies

0:33:13.360 --> 0:33:15.960
<v Speaker 2>the fact that his backstory is pretty tame. His parents

0:33:15.960 --> 0:33:19.560
<v Speaker 2>are Irish immigrants from branches of wealthier families started by

0:33:19.560 --> 0:33:21.640
<v Speaker 2>second or third sons who left the home country to

0:33:21.640 --> 0:33:24.360
<v Speaker 2>find their fortune because how inheritance worked at the time.

0:33:24.800 --> 0:33:27.640
<v Speaker 2>Thomas Power grew up working class in New York City.

0:33:27.840 --> 0:33:29.720
<v Speaker 2>As a young adult, he entered the US Army Air

0:33:29.760 --> 0:33:32.000
<v Speaker 2>Corps in nineteen twenty eight when it was still a baby.

0:33:32.280 --> 0:33:35.400
<v Speaker 2>Since this was a comparatively dull time for the US military,

0:33:35.600 --> 0:33:39.360
<v Speaker 2>his career was pretty dull until World War Two. Power

0:33:39.480 --> 0:33:41.720
<v Speaker 2>was a gifted officer and hard working, and so once

0:33:41.720 --> 0:33:44.440
<v Speaker 2>the military starts expanding massively to meet the demands of

0:33:44.480 --> 0:33:48.080
<v Speaker 2>the war, officers like him are promoted rapidly. Power sees

0:33:48.120 --> 0:33:50.720
<v Speaker 2>combat for the first time, flying B twenty four missions

0:33:50.720 --> 0:33:53.440
<v Speaker 2>over Italy. He starts the war a major, and he

0:33:53.520 --> 0:33:56.560
<v Speaker 2>ends it a brigadier general and Deputy Chief of Operations

0:33:56.560 --> 0:33:59.840
<v Speaker 2>for all US Strategic Air Forces in the Pacific. Now.

0:34:00.520 --> 0:34:03.680
<v Speaker 2>Power is not briefed immediately about the existence of nuclear weapons.

0:34:03.760 --> 0:34:06.480
<v Speaker 2>LeMay is one of the first generals who learns about

0:34:06.600 --> 0:34:08.919
<v Speaker 2>the Manhattan Project who learns that we have a nuke.

0:34:10.040 --> 0:34:12.920
<v Speaker 2>Now he's not allowed to command the raid in person.

0:34:13.000 --> 0:34:14.880
<v Speaker 2>He wants to. He tries to, but he's at this

0:34:14.920 --> 0:34:17.799
<v Speaker 2>point too high ranking to be given that job, so

0:34:17.880 --> 0:34:22.719
<v Speaker 2>the nuke one. Yeah, I mean he's not allowed to

0:34:22.760 --> 0:34:25.000
<v Speaker 2>command raids in person in general, right, Power, I think

0:34:25.120 --> 0:34:27.520
<v Speaker 2>is his guy doing a lot of that, And Power

0:34:27.760 --> 0:34:29.400
<v Speaker 2>is the guy, Yeah, Power is the guy who is

0:34:29.400 --> 0:34:33.600
<v Speaker 2>commanding the raid on Tokyo in person. Yeah. So I

0:34:33.640 --> 0:34:35.680
<v Speaker 2>do think it's kind of worth noting in terms of

0:34:35.719 --> 0:34:39.520
<v Speaker 2>how these guys are both thinking. They're still patterning their options.

0:34:39.520 --> 0:34:42.000
<v Speaker 2>They've moved away from like the shit Eker was doing,

0:34:42.000 --> 0:34:44.680
<v Speaker 2>but they're patterning their operations largely off of how bomber

0:34:44.680 --> 0:34:48.680
<v Speaker 2>Harris had planned operations right in Tokyo as in Cologne.

0:34:48.680 --> 0:34:51.680
<v Speaker 2>The military insisted its primary objective was the destruction of

0:34:51.680 --> 0:34:54.840
<v Speaker 2>industrial buildings, but the Air Force planners working for LeMay

0:34:54.880 --> 0:34:57.799
<v Speaker 2>in Power picked targets based not on industrial density, but

0:34:57.960 --> 0:35:00.640
<v Speaker 2>how well they thought given neighborhoods would burn. The B

0:35:00.719 --> 0:35:02.560
<v Speaker 2>twenty nine crews were informed that the purpose of the

0:35:02.600 --> 0:35:05.160
<v Speaker 2>attack was to destroy small factories, but LeMay in Power

0:35:05.200 --> 0:35:07.719
<v Speaker 2>both knew that was not the real target. And these

0:35:07.760 --> 0:35:09.640
<v Speaker 2>guys have their way with the Army Air Corps in

0:35:09.680 --> 0:35:14.040
<v Speaker 2>Japan for months, but final victory still proves elusive. We

0:35:14.120 --> 0:35:17.760
<v Speaker 2>dropped more than sixteen hundred tons of explosives, on Tokyo

0:35:17.760 --> 0:35:20.560
<v Speaker 2>on March tenth, and again, remember duhe had theorized three

0:35:20.600 --> 0:35:22.720
<v Speaker 2>hundred was enough to wipe out any city on the earth,

0:35:23.239 --> 0:35:27.480
<v Speaker 2>but the Empire refused to surrender. LeMay's entire philosophy of

0:35:27.600 --> 0:35:30.360
<v Speaker 2>war was that victory could be achieved through the application

0:35:30.400 --> 0:35:32.799
<v Speaker 2>of long range bombing, and the application of long range

0:35:32.800 --> 0:35:37.400
<v Speaker 2>bombing alone. His only response when confronted with inconvenient facts

0:35:37.440 --> 0:35:40.680
<v Speaker 2>like this isn't working was to escalate. In the book

0:35:40.719 --> 0:35:44.719
<v Speaker 2>Fifteen Minutes, L. Douglas Keeney describes the generals escalating Mania,

0:35:45.160 --> 0:35:51.440
<v Speaker 2>LeMay bombed with an increasing sense of urgency. He bombed Tokyo, Nagoya, Osaka, Kobe, Kawasaki,

0:35:51.480 --> 0:35:54.480
<v Speaker 2>and Yokohama. He attacked when and where he was ordered to,

0:35:54.840 --> 0:35:56.840
<v Speaker 2>but when he was finished, he pulled names out of

0:35:56.880 --> 0:35:59.879
<v Speaker 2>almanacs or off maps and bombed some more. In his view,

0:35:59.880 --> 0:36:02.480
<v Speaker 2>the only reason runways had been built on Tinian and

0:36:02.520 --> 0:36:04.440
<v Speaker 2>the only reason that B twenty nine were fueled up

0:36:04.440 --> 0:36:06.799
<v Speaker 2>and loaded with bombs. The only reason he was in

0:36:06.840 --> 0:36:10.160
<v Speaker 2>the Marianas was to bomb Japan. Five hundred bombers against

0:36:10.160 --> 0:36:12.920
<v Speaker 2>one city, eight hundred against another nine hundred bombers. Today

0:36:12.920 --> 0:36:15.600
<v Speaker 2>one thousand bombers tomorrow. The only point was to end

0:36:15.640 --> 0:36:18.680
<v Speaker 2>the war, one factory, one city at a time. So

0:36:18.800 --> 0:36:20.879
<v Speaker 2>intense were his operations that by the end of May,

0:36:21.080 --> 0:36:24.000
<v Speaker 2>LeMay eventually exceeded the supply of bombs the United States

0:36:24.080 --> 0:36:26.160
<v Speaker 2>Navy could deliver to him and was forced to take

0:36:26.200 --> 0:36:29.040
<v Speaker 2>a break. I feel that the destruction of Japan's ability

0:36:29.080 --> 0:36:31.760
<v Speaker 2>to wage war lies within the capacity of this command,

0:36:31.920 --> 0:36:35.560
<v Speaker 2>LeMay road of the bomber forces he commanded, I.

0:36:35.480 --> 0:36:38.960
<v Speaker 3>Mean, just a when you have a hammer, everything needs

0:36:39.000 --> 0:36:39.840
<v Speaker 3>to get exploded.

0:36:40.200 --> 0:36:43.279
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and when you have a thousand bombers, you can't

0:36:43.320 --> 0:36:46.280
<v Speaker 2>really have any ideas that aren't dropping bombs on people,

0:36:46.600 --> 0:36:48.680
<v Speaker 2>you know. That's what else matters.

0:36:49.000 --> 0:36:52.120
<v Speaker 3>The only other I'm not trying to defend this, but

0:36:52.320 --> 0:36:56.120
<v Speaker 3>the only other, like primary option would be like getting

0:36:56.160 --> 0:36:58.960
<v Speaker 3>a beachhead and then like trying to take this.

0:37:00.200 --> 0:37:02.480
<v Speaker 2>I mean, and we'll talk more about that, right, Like,

0:37:02.719 --> 0:37:05.759
<v Speaker 2>this is not there's not any clear good options here.

0:37:05.760 --> 0:37:09.560
<v Speaker 2>It's a war, there rarely are. But it's important to

0:37:09.600 --> 0:37:13.760
<v Speaker 2>note that like through conventional methods, his plan doesn't seem

0:37:13.760 --> 0:37:16.600
<v Speaker 2>to be working. Allied war planners find themselves preparing for

0:37:16.640 --> 0:37:19.200
<v Speaker 2>an invasion. Right, we're still preparing this in ground troops

0:37:19.239 --> 0:37:22.839
<v Speaker 2>into Japan. Now, this is where you get a lot

0:37:22.880 --> 0:37:27.280
<v Speaker 2>of debate, right, And his book, Keeney describes the plans

0:37:27.320 --> 0:37:29.640
<v Speaker 2>for an invasion of Japan by the Allies as unnecessary,

0:37:29.680 --> 0:37:32.040
<v Speaker 2>and I think he expresses what I'd call significant faith

0:37:32.080 --> 0:37:34.560
<v Speaker 2>that Japan was on the brink of collapse. This is

0:37:34.640 --> 0:37:37.160
<v Speaker 2>not a conclusion shared by everyone, but I think there's

0:37:37.160 --> 0:37:40.480
<v Speaker 2>a strong argument here. One of the issues that's already developing,

0:37:40.520 --> 0:37:42.840
<v Speaker 2>as you can see though, is that a lot of guys,

0:37:43.800 --> 0:37:46.160
<v Speaker 2>even at this point, had already forgotten what had made

0:37:46.160 --> 0:37:50.000
<v Speaker 2>bombing Japan possible, Right that, Like, we're kind of narrowing

0:37:50.040 --> 0:37:53.520
<v Speaker 2>it down to, like, okay, and we bombed, Like both

0:37:53.560 --> 0:37:55.799
<v Speaker 2>sides of the nuke issue. One side is like, we

0:37:55.800 --> 0:37:58.480
<v Speaker 2>didn't need de nuke Japan because we had already destroyed

0:37:58.520 --> 0:38:00.600
<v Speaker 2>so much of them through bombing the island that they

0:38:00.600 --> 0:38:03.080
<v Speaker 2>were going to surrender anyway. And the other side is

0:38:03.320 --> 0:38:06.160
<v Speaker 2>Japan never would have surrendered unless nuked, and so we

0:38:06.239 --> 0:38:09.239
<v Speaker 2>had to nuke them to avoid an even costlier invasion. Right,

0:38:09.239 --> 0:38:12.239
<v Speaker 2>That's the basic argument. And both of these, if you're

0:38:12.280 --> 0:38:15.319
<v Speaker 2>thinking in the grand strategic sense, ignore the fact that

0:38:15.360 --> 0:38:17.239
<v Speaker 2>we only got to the point where we could bomb

0:38:17.320 --> 0:38:20.960
<v Speaker 2>the Home Islands the way we were after defeating Japan

0:38:21.040 --> 0:38:23.520
<v Speaker 2>in a series of more conventional engagements. Right, just in

0:38:23.600 --> 0:38:26.399
<v Speaker 2>terms of the whole strategic bombing is all we need

0:38:26.440 --> 0:38:28.120
<v Speaker 2>thing was never correct, right.

0:38:28.040 --> 0:38:29.799
<v Speaker 3>Right, because they had to defeat them on the sea

0:38:29.920 --> 0:38:31.120
<v Speaker 3>and on all the islands.

0:38:31.320 --> 0:38:34.400
<v Speaker 2>By the point the Home Islands were isolated, it was

0:38:34.520 --> 0:38:37.640
<v Speaker 2>cave possible to defeat Japan just through bombing, right, But

0:38:38.000 --> 0:38:42.600
<v Speaker 2>there was a lot prior to that, right, Yeah. And

0:38:42.680 --> 0:38:45.480
<v Speaker 2>so when LeMay learns that we have an atom bomb

0:38:45.520 --> 0:38:47.680
<v Speaker 2>and here's how powerful this thing is, I think it

0:38:47.800 --> 0:38:50.680
<v Speaker 2>kind of strikes him as salvation to his theory of warfare,

0:38:51.080 --> 0:38:54.480
<v Speaker 2>right yea, And yeah, it's kind of this is kind

0:38:54.520 --> 0:38:56.799
<v Speaker 2>of the prehistory of the modern argument that nukes are

0:38:56.840 --> 0:38:58.920
<v Speaker 2>the only way to end Japan's willingness to fight, right,

0:38:58.960 --> 0:39:02.120
<v Speaker 2>and so bombs save lives. Part of why that gets

0:39:02.120 --> 0:39:05.919
<v Speaker 2>started is it's really convenient for guys like Curtis Leamy, Right,

0:39:06.360 --> 0:39:09.319
<v Speaker 2>It really helps a lot with the bets that they've

0:39:09.320 --> 0:39:12.400
<v Speaker 2>been making in their careers. If this is the only

0:39:12.520 --> 0:39:14.799
<v Speaker 2>way to end the war. You know, that's not the

0:39:14.800 --> 0:39:16.920
<v Speaker 2>only thing going on here, But they find it it's

0:39:17.040 --> 0:39:19.920
<v Speaker 2>very helpful. It's not a non factor here. How helpful

0:39:19.920 --> 0:39:21.920
<v Speaker 2>this is to a lot of people's beliefs about how

0:39:21.960 --> 0:39:24.560
<v Speaker 2>war already works that have kind of been proven wrong.

0:39:24.719 --> 0:39:27.439
<v Speaker 2>Is that nukes kind of retroactively make them right.

0:39:28.560 --> 0:39:31.160
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I mean there's just such a different order of magnitude.

0:39:31.200 --> 0:39:33.359
<v Speaker 3>It's just yeah, go in from a club to an

0:39:33.560 --> 0:39:34.120
<v Speaker 3>AR fifteen.

0:39:34.640 --> 0:39:38.719
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's And it's like, look if someone's like, all, like,

0:39:38.880 --> 0:39:42.000
<v Speaker 2>the only way to stop kids from like fucking with

0:39:42.080 --> 0:39:44.319
<v Speaker 2>the plants in my yard is to hit him with

0:39:44.360 --> 0:39:47.239
<v Speaker 2>a stick, and he hits kids with a stick, and

0:39:47.239 --> 0:39:49.279
<v Speaker 2>they keep fucking with his yard, so he like, well

0:39:49.480 --> 0:39:52.960
<v Speaker 2>I have to shoot them, and that stopped it, Like yeah, totally.

0:39:53.120 --> 0:39:57.120
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, man, were there other things you weren't considering.

0:39:58.120 --> 0:40:00.440
<v Speaker 3>Could they have laid it just to go back and

0:40:00.520 --> 0:40:02.880
<v Speaker 3>pretend like I'm in charge World War two? Could they

0:40:02.920 --> 0:40:05.040
<v Speaker 3>just lay siege to Japan and like be like that

0:40:05.200 --> 0:40:06.440
<v Speaker 3>we already beat you everywhere?

0:40:06.520 --> 0:40:09.960
<v Speaker 2>Or just they were Yeah, I mean that that's what happened. Right,

0:40:10.000 --> 0:40:12.800
<v Speaker 2>We cut off Japan. Ninety percent of their merchant shipping

0:40:13.000 --> 0:40:17.800
<v Speaker 2>had ended, right, Like, we had cut them off pretty conclusively.

0:40:19.360 --> 0:40:21.360
<v Speaker 2>And that's one side of this argument is that we

0:40:21.400 --> 0:40:24.160
<v Speaker 2>never needed to nuke them. There were other reasons, largely

0:40:24.200 --> 0:40:26.080
<v Speaker 2>we wanted to scare the shit out of the USSR.

0:40:26.320 --> 0:40:29.840
<v Speaker 3>Right, Yeah, that's that's always what I assumed is basically, like,

0:40:29.880 --> 0:40:31.520
<v Speaker 3>we have a new toy, we need to prove that

0:40:31.560 --> 0:40:33.600
<v Speaker 3>we're like man enough to use.

0:40:33.520 --> 0:40:36.080
<v Speaker 2>It, right, And and part of why that gets so

0:40:36.160 --> 0:40:39.680
<v Speaker 2>much support among military leaders is that getting access to

0:40:39.719 --> 0:40:44.080
<v Speaker 2>these weapons allows them to continue fighting wars the way

0:40:44.080 --> 0:40:46.120
<v Speaker 2>they've been arguing is the only way we need to

0:40:46.120 --> 0:40:48.600
<v Speaker 2>fight a war, right, Like, oh, all that does matter

0:40:48.680 --> 0:40:52.719
<v Speaker 2>is bombers. Now, Now, I don't really think it's productive

0:40:52.760 --> 0:40:55.600
<v Speaker 2>to like try to make an argument about whose view

0:40:55.640 --> 0:40:58.719
<v Speaker 2>of the use of nuclear weapons was correct, you know,

0:40:59.160 --> 0:41:02.080
<v Speaker 2>because there's no there's not a perfect answer to that,

0:41:02.160 --> 0:41:03.440
<v Speaker 2>and a lot of it comes down to what you

0:41:03.520 --> 0:41:07.520
<v Speaker 2>believe about ethics. And like I would argue, even if

0:41:07.600 --> 0:41:10.640
<v Speaker 2>it would cost the lives of a million soldiers, that's

0:41:10.840 --> 0:41:15.239
<v Speaker 2>better than mass killing civilians for the human race, Like,

0:41:15.280 --> 0:41:17.960
<v Speaker 2>it's just bad. It opens us out, Like right now,

0:41:18.000 --> 0:41:20.320
<v Speaker 2>we're all fifteen minutes away from the end of humanity,

0:41:20.360 --> 0:41:22.960
<v Speaker 2>in part because decisions like this kept being made, and

0:41:23.000 --> 0:41:25.920
<v Speaker 2>each one leads to a bigger decision that kills more people,

0:41:26.360 --> 0:41:29.120
<v Speaker 2>and we probably shouldn't have started going down that road, right,

0:41:29.160 --> 0:41:32.680
<v Speaker 2>That would be like my answer, But LeMay felt very differently.

0:41:33.520 --> 0:41:37.879
<v Speaker 2>He himself laid out his theory of warfare pretty succinctly.

0:41:38.040 --> 0:41:40.399
<v Speaker 2>And this is a direct quote from the man. I'll

0:41:40.400 --> 0:41:42.680
<v Speaker 2>tell you what war is about. You've got to kill people,

0:41:42.680 --> 0:41:46.960
<v Speaker 2>and when you've killed enough, they stop fighting. And this

0:41:47.120 --> 0:41:49.760
<v Speaker 2>is like how the animating theory that the US brings

0:41:49.760 --> 0:41:53.080
<v Speaker 2>into basically every war. You know, we dress it up differently.

0:41:53.480 --> 0:41:55.839
<v Speaker 2>Very few of our general staff will say straight up,

0:41:55.880 --> 0:41:58.520
<v Speaker 2>that's what I believe. But this is what we thought

0:41:58.520 --> 0:42:01.480
<v Speaker 2>in Afghanistan and didn't work. This is what we thought

0:42:01.560 --> 0:42:04.640
<v Speaker 2>in Vietnam. This is what like, well, you just got

0:42:04.680 --> 0:42:07.399
<v Speaker 2>to kill enough of the bad guys. Eventually they run

0:42:07.440 --> 0:42:11.240
<v Speaker 2>out of bad guys. And that's just not how things work. Really.

0:42:11.280 --> 0:42:14.520
<v Speaker 3>It's the like that meme that's like, it's the everyone

0:42:14.640 --> 0:42:17.200
<v Speaker 3>is twelve theory.

0:42:16.280 --> 0:42:18.680
<v Speaker 2>Right, yeah, but yes, yes, yeah.

0:42:18.840 --> 0:42:20.680
<v Speaker 3>But the thing is, though, that's frustrating because it's like,

0:42:21.600 --> 0:42:23.960
<v Speaker 3>you know, people are always like, oh, you can't kill an ideology,

0:42:23.960 --> 0:42:26.200
<v Speaker 3>and you're like, you know, what if you kill enough

0:42:26.239 --> 0:42:28.839
<v Speaker 3>people who have an ideology, and the ideology goes away

0:42:28.880 --> 0:42:32.040
<v Speaker 3>for a very long time. Yeah, like you actually kind

0:42:32.120 --> 0:42:36.640
<v Speaker 3>of can You can't. Humans are squishy and soft and

0:42:36.719 --> 0:42:42.239
<v Speaker 3>easily killed. Defense is always harder than offense. I don't know.

0:42:42.400 --> 0:42:44.640
<v Speaker 3>I well, I'm not the friend of this.

0:42:44.960 --> 0:42:47.759
<v Speaker 2>Sometimes sometimes you do have to kill people, and there

0:42:47.800 --> 0:42:50.480
<v Speaker 2>are problems that you can kill your way out of,

0:42:50.719 --> 0:42:54.640
<v Speaker 2>right that we have as a species. Yeah, it's just

0:42:54.719 --> 0:42:59.200
<v Speaker 2>not all you need to do. Ever, now, it doesn't

0:42:59.239 --> 0:43:01.320
<v Speaker 2>work a lot of the most of the kill people

0:43:01.360 --> 0:43:04.440
<v Speaker 2>to solve problems. Advocates are saying things like, well, if

0:43:04.440 --> 0:43:08.200
<v Speaker 2>we bomb these people who are doing suicide bombings because

0:43:08.200 --> 0:43:12.040
<v Speaker 2>they're angry about their living conditions enough, they'll stop bombing us,

0:43:12.320 --> 0:43:16.520
<v Speaker 2>And like, well, but no, you only thinks that really

0:43:16.520 --> 0:43:20.120
<v Speaker 2>how it works in the long run. Yeah, Or this

0:43:20.239 --> 0:43:23.520
<v Speaker 2>insurgency that is being supported by the local populace, if

0:43:23.560 --> 0:43:26.160
<v Speaker 2>we make life miserable enough for the populace, they'll stop

0:43:26.200 --> 0:43:30.200
<v Speaker 2>supporting the insurgents. Gotta be a no dog. Unfortunately, history

0:43:30.280 --> 0:43:32.680
<v Speaker 2>is repeatedly shown it doesn't work as the way you

0:43:32.680 --> 0:43:34.680
<v Speaker 2>think it does, right, those.

0:43:34.520 --> 0:43:36.360
<v Speaker 3>Are the whole Like modern theory of warfare is that

0:43:36.400 --> 0:43:39.759
<v Speaker 3>basically people support whoever feeds them and like you, actually.

0:43:41.239 --> 0:43:45.399
<v Speaker 2>It helps sometimes Again, there's no one size fits all

0:43:45.520 --> 0:43:49.759
<v Speaker 2>theory of like this is. But when you're thinking of

0:43:49.800 --> 0:43:51.839
<v Speaker 2>one size right, when you limit it to the all

0:43:51.880 --> 0:43:54.920
<v Speaker 2>we need to do is bomb them. You're not going

0:43:54.920 --> 0:43:57.600
<v Speaker 2>to win the war unless you're using the bomb that

0:43:57.680 --> 0:44:00.360
<v Speaker 2>kills all of the people everywhere. And that where this

0:44:00.440 --> 0:44:02.080
<v Speaker 2>leads is them all being like, well, the only way

0:44:02.120 --> 0:44:05.440
<v Speaker 2>to effectively plan for war is to destroy the whole species.

0:44:05.640 --> 0:44:07.719
<v Speaker 2>And then we don't.

0:44:07.480 --> 0:44:11.160
<v Speaker 3>Have a war, yeah until we have the like planetary

0:44:11.200 --> 0:44:14.480
<v Speaker 3>destructo button like that, Yeah, explodes the inside of the planet.

0:44:14.480 --> 0:44:18.520
<v Speaker 3>We've hit the top. There's no more kill everyone button.

0:44:18.600 --> 0:44:20.080
<v Speaker 3>We found to kill everyone button.

0:44:20.120 --> 0:44:22.520
<v Speaker 2>I feel like Margaret, the way we should govern is

0:44:22.560 --> 0:44:25.200
<v Speaker 2>we should have a kill everyone buttons, and everyone has

0:44:25.200 --> 0:44:27.879
<v Speaker 2>a no, no, no, and everyone has.

0:44:27.800 --> 0:44:30.600
<v Speaker 3>A plot of Alfred Bester's Tiger Tiger.

0:44:31.280 --> 0:44:32.319
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. I haven't read that.

0:44:32.880 --> 0:44:35.320
<v Speaker 3>Oh, there's this old science fiction book. It might be

0:44:35.360 --> 0:44:38.520
<v Speaker 3>called Tiger Tiger. I might be getting wrong. The spoiler

0:44:38.560 --> 0:44:40.000
<v Speaker 3>at the end of this, just to say what I

0:44:40.000 --> 0:44:43.240
<v Speaker 3>think you were about to say, is that he basically

0:44:43.280 --> 0:44:45.239
<v Speaker 3>gives everyone in the world the plants of how to

0:44:45.280 --> 0:44:48.720
<v Speaker 3>make nukes, and then we get world peace because everyone

0:44:48.760 --> 0:44:52.560
<v Speaker 3>has mutually a shorted destruction on an individual level. Oh see, No,

0:44:52.800 --> 0:44:54.600
<v Speaker 3>it's entirely incorrect.

0:44:54.520 --> 0:44:56.319
<v Speaker 2>That that was a I mean, yeah, I don't think

0:44:56.360 --> 0:44:58.359
<v Speaker 2>that would really work very well. It's a fun idea

0:44:58.360 --> 0:45:00.440
<v Speaker 2>for her story. No, my theory is you give everyone

0:45:00.480 --> 0:45:02.960
<v Speaker 2>a chip that lets them all vote whenever, like a

0:45:03.040 --> 0:45:05.040
<v Speaker 2>vote is called about, like whether or not they want

0:45:05.080 --> 0:45:07.120
<v Speaker 2>to destroy the world or not. And if fifty one

0:45:07.200 --> 0:45:09.640
<v Speaker 2>percent of humanity votes to destroy the world, then a

0:45:09.680 --> 0:45:12.319
<v Speaker 2>device goes off and it kills everybody, Right, so you

0:45:12.360 --> 0:45:15.080
<v Speaker 2>have to keep life pleasant enough for at least fifty

0:45:15.120 --> 0:45:17.319
<v Speaker 2>one I feel like it's better than the system we.

0:45:17.360 --> 0:45:20.319
<v Speaker 3>Have, all right, what if that is actually always a

0:45:20.360 --> 0:45:22.560
<v Speaker 3>ballot option on every elect.

0:45:22.360 --> 0:45:24.120
<v Speaker 2>Every kill everyone, yes or no.

0:45:24.400 --> 0:45:27.000
<v Speaker 3>So it's like, well, we give a Democrat, Republican or

0:45:27.080 --> 0:45:28.279
<v Speaker 3>kill every kill everybody.

0:45:28.800 --> 0:45:30.680
<v Speaker 2>I didn't kill everybody might have won last year.

0:45:30.760 --> 0:45:32.560
<v Speaker 3>Yeah wait, I've changed my mind about this.

0:45:34.360 --> 0:45:46.840
<v Speaker 2>Anyways, So yeah, let's go to ads. We're back. Real

0:45:46.880 --> 0:45:50.160
<v Speaker 2>warfare had proven that strategic bombing and precision bombing were

0:45:50.160 --> 0:45:52.839
<v Speaker 2>both more difficult and less effective in practice than their

0:45:52.840 --> 0:45:56.160
<v Speaker 2>advocates hoped, and nukes were an answer to these prayers.

0:45:56.160 --> 0:45:58.319
<v Speaker 2>They were a weapon system that seemed to justify all

0:45:58.360 --> 0:46:00.920
<v Speaker 2>of their du Haey inspired theories of how aerial warfare

0:46:01.000 --> 0:46:03.239
<v Speaker 2>ought to work. As soon as we use a nuke

0:46:03.239 --> 0:46:05.840
<v Speaker 2>for the first time, there's this immediate, loud and growing

0:46:05.920 --> 0:46:08.239
<v Speaker 2>chorus of voices within the Army Air Corps that like,

0:46:08.640 --> 0:46:10.920
<v Speaker 2>maybe this is the only weapon we ever need in

0:46:10.960 --> 0:46:13.319
<v Speaker 2>the future. And I want to read another quote from

0:46:13.320 --> 0:46:16.120
<v Speaker 2>the book fifteen minutes. The fact that Japan, while still

0:46:16.160 --> 0:46:19.160
<v Speaker 2>in possession of a formidable and intact land army, surrendered

0:46:19.239 --> 0:46:22.799
<v Speaker 2>without having her homeland invaded by enemy landforces represents a

0:46:22.880 --> 0:46:26.520
<v Speaker 2>unique and significant event in military history. LeMay would later say.

0:46:26.840 --> 0:46:29.960
<v Speaker 2>General James H. Jimmy Doolittle agreed the Navy had the

0:46:30.000 --> 0:46:32.600
<v Speaker 2>transport to make the invasion of Japan possible, the ground

0:46:32.640 --> 0:46:34.640
<v Speaker 2>forces had the power to make it successful. The B

0:46:34.760 --> 0:46:38.319
<v Speaker 2>twenty nine made it unnecessary, said General hap Arnold. The

0:46:38.400 --> 0:46:41.640
<v Speaker 2>influence of atomic energy on airpower can be stated very simply.

0:46:41.800 --> 0:46:45.040
<v Speaker 2>It has made airpower all important. Right, So this is

0:46:45.080 --> 0:46:47.080
<v Speaker 2>immediately a lot of the most influential guys in the

0:46:47.120 --> 0:46:49.160
<v Speaker 2>Air Corps are saying, this is kind of all it

0:46:49.200 --> 0:46:52.960
<v Speaker 2>matters in war going forward right, Like, yeah, we finally

0:46:53.040 --> 0:46:55.640
<v Speaker 2>figured it out. We were wrong last time, but like

0:46:56.280 --> 0:46:58.520
<v Speaker 2>we weren't ready yet, but now we're ready to make

0:46:58.600 --> 0:47:00.759
<v Speaker 2>bombers be the only thing that you need. Yeah, if

0:47:00.760 --> 0:47:03.560
<v Speaker 2>you're wrong long enough, here become right right. Yes, that

0:47:04.120 --> 0:47:06.360
<v Speaker 2>is how things work sometimes. And it may seem that

0:47:06.400 --> 0:47:08.920
<v Speaker 2>I am not going into detail about the Manhattan Project

0:47:09.000 --> 0:47:11.120
<v Speaker 2>and the guys who like developed and built the first

0:47:11.200 --> 0:47:14.759
<v Speaker 2>nuclear bomb, because you'd think, if we're talking about the

0:47:14.800 --> 0:47:17.319
<v Speaker 2>global nuclear doomsday device, the guys who made the first

0:47:17.400 --> 0:47:20.560
<v Speaker 2>nuke are somewhat culpable for that, right, and they are.

0:47:21.320 --> 0:47:23.719
<v Speaker 2>I don't think their role is worth me covering here

0:47:23.800 --> 0:47:25.840
<v Speaker 2>for a couple of reasons. For one, there's been a

0:47:25.880 --> 0:47:28.640
<v Speaker 2>pretty big budget movie recently about those guys, so I

0:47:28.640 --> 0:47:31.160
<v Speaker 2>think there's a pretty high background level of understanding about

0:47:31.200 --> 0:47:35.280
<v Speaker 2>like the Manhattan Project right now. And more to the point,

0:47:35.360 --> 0:47:37.440
<v Speaker 2>I don't place most of the moral blame on a

0:47:37.480 --> 0:47:41.480
<v Speaker 2>potential global nuclear war on the Manhattan Project guys. I

0:47:41.560 --> 0:47:43.560
<v Speaker 2>think you have to put yourself in the shoes of

0:47:43.640 --> 0:47:46.399
<v Speaker 2>guys like Sillard, who we started the series talking about, right,

0:47:46.440 --> 0:47:49.040
<v Speaker 2>these people who are watching the worst war ever happen,

0:47:49.320 --> 0:47:52.560
<v Speaker 2>and all of tens of millions die and they're being told, Hey,

0:47:52.560 --> 0:47:54.279
<v Speaker 2>if we build a bomb big enough, maybe we can

0:47:54.320 --> 0:47:57.480
<v Speaker 2>stop this war. Right, Given the knowledge a lot of

0:47:57.520 --> 0:47:59.040
<v Speaker 2>these guys would have had at the time, and these

0:47:59.040 --> 0:48:02.480
<v Speaker 2>guys are not all high level state actors with access

0:48:02.520 --> 0:48:07.040
<v Speaker 2>to complete information about the strategic scenario, right, given the

0:48:07.160 --> 0:48:08.920
<v Speaker 2>level of knowledge they would have had to understand, I

0:48:08.920 --> 0:48:12.560
<v Speaker 2>think participation in the Manhattan Project is understandable, right, Yeah, yeah,

0:48:12.640 --> 0:48:15.640
<v Speaker 2>at that stage. And to make that point, let's talk

0:48:15.640 --> 0:48:18.800
<v Speaker 2>about a guy called named Lewis Slotkin. I'm gonna have

0:48:18.840 --> 0:48:21.040
<v Speaker 2>to go back and get his name right. I corrected myself.

0:48:21.040 --> 0:48:22.640
<v Speaker 2>I spelled it wrong at the start. I had a

0:48:22.680 --> 0:48:25.960
<v Speaker 2>K in there. I fucked up. I'm sorry, I'll correct

0:48:26.000 --> 0:48:29.240
<v Speaker 2>it later. Lewis was Canadian by birth, but his parents

0:48:29.239 --> 0:48:33.200
<v Speaker 2>were Yiddish speaking Jewish refugees from Russia's Mini Pagrams. So

0:48:33.280 --> 0:48:35.359
<v Speaker 2>he grows up in Canada and he does well enough

0:48:35.400 --> 0:48:38.360
<v Speaker 2>as an undergrad that he's accepted to a PhD program

0:48:38.440 --> 0:48:41.560
<v Speaker 2>at King's College in London. He excels there as well.

0:48:41.640 --> 0:48:43.920
<v Speaker 2>The nature of his work is beyond me, but he

0:48:43.960 --> 0:48:46.960
<v Speaker 2>won prizes for his continuous contributions to physics. Right, I

0:48:46.960 --> 0:48:49.400
<v Speaker 2>don't understand what he was smart about, but it was physics,

0:48:49.440 --> 0:48:51.560
<v Speaker 2>and he was good at it. Here In's a reputation,

0:48:51.800 --> 0:48:54.000
<v Speaker 2>a rare one for an engineering nerd, as being an

0:48:54.000 --> 0:48:57.400
<v Speaker 2>adrenaline junkie. In the book Brighter Than a Thousand Suns,

0:48:57.520 --> 0:49:00.400
<v Speaker 2>Robert Yunk says that Slotkin's colleagues at the time described

0:49:00.440 --> 0:49:03.560
<v Speaker 2>in regularly going off quote in search of fighting, excitement,

0:49:03.600 --> 0:49:06.560
<v Speaker 2>and adventure. He had volunteered for service in the Spanish

0:49:06.600 --> 0:49:08.600
<v Speaker 2>Civil War more for the sake of the thrill of

0:49:08.640 --> 0:49:12.200
<v Speaker 2>it than on political grounds. Jeez, he's that kind of dude, right,

0:49:12.200 --> 0:49:14.719
<v Speaker 2>He's a little bit of an adrenaline junkie. He gets

0:49:14.800 --> 0:49:18.080
<v Speaker 2>hired by the University of Chicago in nineteen forty two.

0:49:18.120 --> 0:49:20.520
<v Speaker 2>He is invited to the Manhattan Project and he works

0:49:20.560 --> 0:49:24.600
<v Speaker 2>directly with uranium and plutonium. Slotkin's particular expertise is in

0:49:24.640 --> 0:49:28.560
<v Speaker 2>assembling the cores of atomic devices. This is very dangerous,

0:49:28.640 --> 0:49:31.000
<v Speaker 2>high stakes work, and he seems to thrive on the

0:49:31.040 --> 0:49:33.160
<v Speaker 2>thrill of it. I found one account of him by

0:49:33.160 --> 0:49:36.360
<v Speaker 2>Martin Zelig, quoting a colleague who worked closely with Slotkin.

0:49:36.760 --> 0:49:39.000
<v Speaker 2>It was Friday afternoon and Lewis wanted to shut down

0:49:39.040 --> 0:49:41.360
<v Speaker 2>the reactor to make adjustments to an experiment at the

0:49:41.360 --> 0:49:43.200
<v Speaker 2>bottom of the tank of water, which was used to

0:49:43.239 --> 0:49:46.200
<v Speaker 2>absorb radiation. We said that was impossible, and we planned

0:49:46.239 --> 0:49:48.600
<v Speaker 2>to shut down the reactor that weekend. When we came

0:49:48.640 --> 0:49:50.960
<v Speaker 2>back on Monday morning, I found that Lewis had stripped

0:49:51.000 --> 0:49:52.960
<v Speaker 2>down to his shorts, dived into the tank and made

0:49:52.960 --> 0:49:56.000
<v Speaker 2>the adjustments underwater. I was appalled that anyone would take

0:49:56.040 --> 0:49:58.440
<v Speaker 2>such risks. It shows what kind of a person he was.

0:49:58.560 --> 0:50:01.239
<v Speaker 2>He was like a cowboy, but a good experimental scientist.

0:50:01.840 --> 0:50:05.120
<v Speaker 2>So you've got like your cowboy nuclear engineer here, right.

0:50:05.080 --> 0:50:06.600
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, who fought in the space of a war.

0:50:06.840 --> 0:50:09.240
<v Speaker 2>Well he wanted to. Yeah, Oh, I thought he doesn't

0:50:09.320 --> 0:50:10.680
<v Speaker 2>quite make it. Yeah, I don't think he makes it.

0:50:10.719 --> 0:50:15.960
<v Speaker 2>Over and Lewis is he's he's literally the guy who

0:50:16.000 --> 0:50:19.200
<v Speaker 2>builds the core of Trinity, our first nuke. He's like

0:50:19.239 --> 0:50:22.560
<v Speaker 2>with his hands. He's made Chief Armor of the United

0:50:22.600 --> 0:50:25.560
<v Speaker 2>States as an honor for this after the bomb goes off,

0:50:25.840 --> 0:50:29.000
<v Speaker 2>like that's his job title. But the honors failed to

0:50:29.000 --> 0:50:31.000
<v Speaker 2>make up for the downsides of his job, like the

0:50:31.000 --> 0:50:33.280
<v Speaker 2>fact that in August of nineteen forty five, he watched

0:50:33.280 --> 0:50:37.360
<v Speaker 2>his good friend Harry Dalling Daglin dagh La I n

0:50:37.640 --> 0:50:41.640
<v Speaker 2>die horrific death. After there's this there's this thing you

0:50:41.680 --> 0:50:44.240
<v Speaker 2>have to do sometimes where you're like switching out the

0:50:44.239 --> 0:50:47.360
<v Speaker 2>core of a bomb. And I think this is basically

0:50:47.400 --> 0:50:50.080
<v Speaker 2>at the time, how you have it like armed or

0:50:50.120 --> 0:50:53.279
<v Speaker 2>disarmed pretty much, but you've got this this thing known

0:50:53.280 --> 0:50:55.960
<v Speaker 2>as the demon core, which is this like plutonium gallium

0:50:56.000 --> 0:51:00.800
<v Speaker 2>alloy bomb core. And these are insanely dangerous. The process

0:51:00.840 --> 0:51:04.319
<v Speaker 2>of like moving them is called tickling the dragon's tail

0:51:04.440 --> 0:51:07.799
<v Speaker 2>for a reason because it's it's this insanely like if

0:51:07.800 --> 0:51:10.600
<v Speaker 2>this thing falls or breaks in any way, you're dying

0:51:10.640 --> 0:51:13.839
<v Speaker 2>a horrific death. Like this is one of those rare

0:51:13.880 --> 0:51:16.279
<v Speaker 2>things about nukes that's as dangerous as like the movie

0:51:16.400 --> 0:51:19.359
<v Speaker 2>version would be. Like if anyone drops this thing, it's

0:51:19.360 --> 0:51:22.759
<v Speaker 2>a fucking like hell is unleashed in the room and

0:51:23.160 --> 0:51:27.360
<v Speaker 2>his so Slotkin's friend Harry dies this way, this nightmarish

0:51:27.400 --> 0:51:30.359
<v Speaker 2>death from radiation exposure, just a few weeks after Hiroshima,

0:51:30.719 --> 0:51:33.319
<v Speaker 2>and at this point in time, we don't know much

0:51:33.520 --> 0:51:37.439
<v Speaker 2>about radiation sickness as it involves nuclear weapons, right, We've

0:51:37.440 --> 0:51:43.279
<v Speaker 2>had very little experience medically with this. Dalaane's agonizing death

0:51:43.360 --> 0:51:46.600
<v Speaker 2>provides Los Alamos researchers with some of their first hard

0:51:46.680 --> 0:51:50.680
<v Speaker 2>data on acute radiation poisoning. Slotkin was shaken by the incident,

0:51:50.719 --> 0:51:54.040
<v Speaker 2>and as the months after the bombing flew by, he

0:51:54.080 --> 0:51:57.040
<v Speaker 2>grew disillusioned with the US military as an institution. You know,

0:51:57.320 --> 0:52:00.120
<v Speaker 2>the sheer carnage of the first atom bombs may have

0:52:00.200 --> 0:52:03.359
<v Speaker 2>influenced this. He helps build these with his bear he's

0:52:03.480 --> 0:52:06.400
<v Speaker 2>not bear, but with his hands. And the bombings in

0:52:06.440 --> 0:52:09.080
<v Speaker 2>Hiroshima and Nagasaki killed between one hundred and fifty thousand

0:52:09.120 --> 0:52:12.320
<v Speaker 2>and two hundred and fifty thousand people as a general estimate, right.

0:52:13.239 --> 0:52:15.760
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, you're trying to stop the Nazis, and then you're like, whoops,

0:52:15.920 --> 0:52:19.440
<v Speaker 3>I oh god, Yeah, build the bomb that killed one

0:52:19.520 --> 0:52:20.839
<v Speaker 3>hundred two hundred thousand people.

0:52:21.200 --> 0:52:24.320
<v Speaker 2>Fifty two hundred and fifty thousand people. Yeah, Like, that's

0:52:24.360 --> 0:52:26.319
<v Speaker 2>that's got to wear on your soul, even if you

0:52:26.320 --> 0:52:28.759
<v Speaker 2>think it was necessary, right yeah, And it does look

0:52:28.800 --> 0:52:31.000
<v Speaker 2>that way to a lot of these guys. Japan surrenders

0:52:31.080 --> 0:52:34.200
<v Speaker 2>unconditionally less than a week after the bombing of Nagasaki, right,

0:52:34.200 --> 0:52:37.440
<v Speaker 2>and that probably balms some of their souls to an extent.

0:52:37.960 --> 0:52:40.920
<v Speaker 2>But after victory in Japan. It becomes harder and harder

0:52:40.920 --> 0:52:43.200
<v Speaker 2>for slot Can to justify what he's doing because the

0:52:43.280 --> 0:52:46.319
<v Speaker 2>US is now a nation at peace and they're continuing

0:52:46.360 --> 0:52:49.200
<v Speaker 2>to build nuclear weapons, and he is forced to grapple

0:52:49.239 --> 0:52:51.759
<v Speaker 2>with a new reality, which is that the US does

0:52:51.800 --> 0:52:54.400
<v Speaker 2>not have an enemy, and we are building a massive

0:52:54.480 --> 0:52:59.360
<v Speaker 2>nuclear stockpile, right, and military leaders, it's generals who have

0:52:59.480 --> 0:53:03.680
<v Speaker 2>direct troll over those weapons. You know, they theoretically have

0:53:03.719 --> 0:53:07.000
<v Speaker 2>to follow the president's orders, but there's nothing stopping them

0:53:07.000 --> 0:53:13.440
<v Speaker 2>physically from utilizing those nukes, right, yeah, Yeah, And he

0:53:13.480 --> 0:53:16.759
<v Speaker 2>also is aware, being reasonably well read, because these guys

0:53:16.760 --> 0:53:18.480
<v Speaker 2>are just talking about this, that a lot of these

0:53:18.480 --> 0:53:21.719
<v Speaker 2>military leaders believe overwhelmingly that the use of nukes is

0:53:21.760 --> 0:53:24.200
<v Speaker 2>to break the will of an enemy population through mass

0:53:24.239 --> 0:53:30.080
<v Speaker 2>destruction of the civilian populace. Right like that, we're using them. Yes,

0:53:30.920 --> 0:53:33.000
<v Speaker 2>it's not hard to imagine why he may have felt

0:53:33.000 --> 0:53:35.759
<v Speaker 2>compelled to change his career. He committed to that course

0:53:35.800 --> 0:53:38.360
<v Speaker 2>of action in nineteen forty six, and we'll discuss what

0:53:38.440 --> 0:53:39.560
<v Speaker 2>happened to him in a little bit.

0:53:39.760 --> 0:53:40.680
<v Speaker 3>Become a podcaster.

0:53:41.040 --> 0:53:44.600
<v Speaker 2>He became a podcaster the very first Yes, the only

0:53:44.640 --> 0:53:47.200
<v Speaker 2>thing worse, Yes, yeah, the only thing worse than a

0:53:47.239 --> 0:53:52.720
<v Speaker 2>nuclear weapons engineer. He now works on Pod Save America. Yeah. Really,

0:53:52.760 --> 0:53:55.560
<v Speaker 2>the only place to go, the only downward trend you can.

0:53:55.400 --> 0:53:58.440
<v Speaker 1>Take, the only podcast name you can remember today.

0:53:59.000 --> 0:54:00.879
<v Speaker 2>I don't know a lot of pod Sophie. I don't

0:54:00.880 --> 0:54:03.920
<v Speaker 2>know a lot of podcasts. What else is there? Last

0:54:03.920 --> 0:54:05.279
<v Speaker 2>podcast on the left.

0:54:05.120 --> 0:54:07.760
<v Speaker 1>Cool People Did Cool Stuff by Margaret Kiljoy.

0:54:08.480 --> 0:54:12.000
<v Speaker 2>Well those are all. I'm not going to say that

0:54:12.080 --> 0:54:15.920
<v Speaker 2>a nuclear engineer joined one of our podcasts, Sophie. That

0:54:16.000 --> 0:54:17.839
<v Speaker 2>man has so much blood on his hands. We don't

0:54:17.840 --> 0:54:20.280
<v Speaker 2>need that kind of heat fair enough.

0:54:20.480 --> 0:54:22.239
<v Speaker 1>I'm not going to start a war here.

0:54:22.920 --> 0:54:24.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Well you don't have to start a war if

0:54:24.440 --> 0:54:27.480
<v Speaker 2>you have enough nukes. That's why we can feel confident

0:54:27.480 --> 0:54:29.800
<v Speaker 2>that the Chopo guys are never going to nucas first

0:54:30.160 --> 0:54:33.560
<v Speaker 2>is because we always keep a fleet of cool Zone

0:54:33.600 --> 0:54:37.080
<v Speaker 2>Media nuclear subs off the coast of wherever those guys live.

0:54:37.280 --> 0:54:39.879
<v Speaker 3>Sophie is just trying to wash her hands of work

0:54:39.920 --> 0:54:41.160
<v Speaker 3>that she did all the work for.

0:54:41.520 --> 0:54:43.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, getting all those nukes in our hands.

0:54:43.640 --> 0:54:45.680
<v Speaker 3>Sure, so tired everyone.

0:54:46.840 --> 0:54:49.040
<v Speaker 2>Anyway, I'm just making the point that I'm not really

0:54:49.040 --> 0:54:51.600
<v Speaker 2>going to detail on all the Manhattan Project guys because

0:54:51.600 --> 0:54:54.320
<v Speaker 2>I don't think that they're deserve nearly as much blame

0:54:54.320 --> 0:54:57.960
<v Speaker 2>as the guys who consciously built the global nuclear doomsday device.

0:54:58.080 --> 0:55:00.400
<v Speaker 2>Right now, there were there is overla. There are some

0:55:00.440 --> 0:55:02.160
<v Speaker 2>people who were on both teams, and one of the

0:55:02.160 --> 0:55:04.640
<v Speaker 2>guys who was on both teams was General Leslie Groves.

0:55:04.840 --> 0:55:07.960
<v Speaker 2>He is the military minder for the Manhattan Project scientists.

0:55:08.000 --> 0:55:10.960
<v Speaker 2>He is their producer, for lack of a better word, Sophie,

0:55:11.160 --> 0:55:13.480
<v Speaker 2>you know, one of the great producers in all of history,

0:55:13.640 --> 0:55:14.440
<v Speaker 2>Leslie Groves.

0:55:14.520 --> 0:55:16.360
<v Speaker 3>There's a play about it called The Producers.

0:55:16.920 --> 0:55:19.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that is that is largely about him and his

0:55:19.560 --> 0:55:21.280
<v Speaker 2>time in Manhattan.

0:55:21.280 --> 0:55:22.640
<v Speaker 3>W'd you got to say it like that?

0:55:22.719 --> 0:55:24.160
<v Speaker 1>Why'd you go to put my name in there?

0:55:24.239 --> 0:55:27.560
<v Speaker 2>It's kind of accurate, Sophie. In nineteen forty two, a

0:55:27.560 --> 0:55:30.400
<v Speaker 2>lot of people call Leslie Groves the safety electormen of

0:55:30.440 --> 0:55:35.200
<v Speaker 2>the Manhattan Project, Robert, you know Robert. In nineteen forty two,

0:55:35.360 --> 0:55:38.440
<v Speaker 2>General Groves gives a lecture to a group of civilian scientists.

0:55:38.480 --> 0:55:40.880
<v Speaker 2>This is when we're kind of trying to get people

0:55:40.920 --> 0:55:44.080
<v Speaker 2>on board the Manhattan Project. He gives a lecture and

0:55:44.120 --> 0:55:46.399
<v Speaker 2>he's basically trying to He's talking about why we should

0:55:46.400 --> 0:55:48.560
<v Speaker 2>build a nuke. And part of the lectures he has

0:55:48.600 --> 0:55:51.440
<v Speaker 2>to convince these scientists, why if we get a nuke,

0:55:51.560 --> 0:55:54.720
<v Speaker 2>other countries won't immediately start trying to develop nukes, leading

0:55:54.760 --> 0:55:57.880
<v Speaker 2>to like a nuclear arms race. And he says, no, no, no,

0:55:58.120 --> 0:56:00.520
<v Speaker 2>once we've got a nuke, everyone will be too scared

0:56:00.520 --> 0:56:02.400
<v Speaker 2>to try to get a nuke. And he described his

0:56:02.480 --> 0:56:05.560
<v Speaker 2>reasoning as fear of counter employment. Right, this is why.

0:56:05.760 --> 0:56:08.080
<v Speaker 2>And this will evolve into they won't use a nuke

0:56:08.160 --> 0:56:09.960
<v Speaker 2>if we've got enough nukes because they know that we'll

0:56:10.040 --> 0:56:12.000
<v Speaker 2>use them in return. Right, But it starts with no

0:56:12.040 --> 0:56:14.920
<v Speaker 2>one will even try to get one, you know, because

0:56:14.920 --> 0:56:18.480
<v Speaker 2>they'll be so scared of our nuke. You just move

0:56:18.560 --> 0:56:21.520
<v Speaker 2>the logic when it proves ineffective. That's how logic works.

0:56:21.960 --> 0:56:25.400
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, yeah, Promises like this have been key to

0:56:25.480 --> 0:56:28.360
<v Speaker 2>weapons development since the creation of the machine gun and dynamite.

0:56:28.680 --> 0:56:31.759
<v Speaker 2>And after Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the logic shifted. We now

0:56:31.800 --> 0:56:34.880
<v Speaker 2>had to assume our adversaries would develop a nuclear arsenal,

0:56:35.080 --> 0:56:37.360
<v Speaker 2>so we'd have to expand ours until it was sufficient

0:56:37.400 --> 0:56:39.719
<v Speaker 2>to destroy the enemy. Right before we have a nuke,

0:56:39.719 --> 0:56:41.239
<v Speaker 2>We're like, no one will even try to get these

0:56:41.280 --> 0:56:42.880
<v Speaker 2>after we have them, and then as soon as we

0:56:42.880 --> 0:56:45.239
<v Speaker 2>set one off, So obviously everyone's gonna have one of these.

0:56:45.960 --> 0:56:50.480
<v Speaker 2>You gotta get enough of them to stop them. General

0:56:50.480 --> 0:56:53.200
<v Speaker 2>Omar Bradley summed up the general thinking among the brass

0:56:53.239 --> 0:56:55.800
<v Speaker 2>after World War Two. And this is Bradley talking in

0:56:55.880 --> 0:56:58.800
<v Speaker 2>nineteen forty five. Our greatest strength lies in the threat

0:56:58.800 --> 0:57:01.759
<v Speaker 2>of quick retaliation the event we are attacked, and the

0:57:01.800 --> 0:57:05.640
<v Speaker 2>only retaliation Bradley believed would be atomic quote. The a

0:57:05.760 --> 0:57:08.520
<v Speaker 2>bomb is the most powerfully destructive device known today. As

0:57:08.560 --> 0:57:11.160
<v Speaker 2>a believer in humanity, I deplore its use, and as

0:57:11.160 --> 0:57:13.840
<v Speaker 2>a soldier I respect it, and as an American citizen,

0:57:13.920 --> 0:57:15.879
<v Speaker 2>I believe we should be prepared to use its full

0:57:15.920 --> 0:57:19.280
<v Speaker 2>psychological and military effect towards preventing war, and if we

0:57:19.320 --> 0:57:23.720
<v Speaker 2>are attacked, towards winning it right and a pillar of

0:57:23.760 --> 0:57:26.320
<v Speaker 2>Bradley's and this is how all these guys talk to

0:57:26.360 --> 0:57:28.400
<v Speaker 2>this day in a lot of ways, which is like, look,

0:57:28.800 --> 0:57:31.640
<v Speaker 2>the only job of a you know, a president should

0:57:31.680 --> 0:57:36.000
<v Speaker 2>not have any any actual role in how we operate

0:57:36.040 --> 0:57:38.240
<v Speaker 2>as a military. His job is to decide when we're

0:57:38.240 --> 0:57:40.240
<v Speaker 2>at war. The civilians decide when we go to war,

0:57:40.480 --> 0:57:42.400
<v Speaker 2>and then we should be the ones who decide how

0:57:42.400 --> 0:57:45.760
<v Speaker 2>to win it, right, Like, that's a very common school

0:57:45.800 --> 0:57:49.640
<v Speaker 2>of thought among military people, especially in this period of time.

0:57:50.080 --> 0:57:53.120
<v Speaker 2>And you get part of the danger is that, like, well,

0:57:53.160 --> 0:57:56.360
<v Speaker 2>then when war is on the table, the guy whose

0:57:56.440 --> 0:57:59.040
<v Speaker 2>job is to advise the president on war has only

0:57:59.120 --> 0:58:02.920
<v Speaker 2>been thinking of nuki everybody, right, like, and maybe that's bad.

0:58:04.680 --> 0:58:07.200
<v Speaker 3>Well, what's funny is that? Okay, so in this, you know,

0:58:07.360 --> 0:58:10.720
<v Speaker 3>as an American citizen, that's why I care about nukes, right,

0:58:11.200 --> 0:58:14.120
<v Speaker 3>And it it gets back to what Wells. I think

0:58:14.160 --> 0:58:17.240
<v Speaker 3>I have an inverse conclusion as Wells. But you look

0:58:17.280 --> 0:58:19.560
<v Speaker 3>at this and you're like, well, the end of national

0:58:19.560 --> 0:58:22.439
<v Speaker 3>borders seems like the only way out of this mess.

0:58:23.040 --> 0:58:23.160
<v Speaker 2>Uh.

0:58:24.040 --> 0:58:26.200
<v Speaker 3>Maybe I'm wrong about this, but it's just interesting that

0:58:26.240 --> 0:58:28.800
<v Speaker 3>Wells used it as like therefore we're gonna have world government,

0:58:29.400 --> 0:58:32.400
<v Speaker 3>you know, and since he's like that type of socialist,

0:58:32.480 --> 0:58:35.960
<v Speaker 3>that's like, yeah, his hope for it. But it's just like,

0:58:36.960 --> 0:58:40.240
<v Speaker 3>I don't know, maybe maybe I'm being too utopian of like, well,

0:58:40.240 --> 0:58:42.520
<v Speaker 3>it's the national borders, it's the idea that like there's

0:58:42.520 --> 0:58:44.800
<v Speaker 3>this US versus them anyway. Whatever.

0:58:44.880 --> 0:58:48.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, just no, no, no, I yeah, I get it.

0:58:48.520 --> 0:58:55.000
<v Speaker 2>I agree. Yeah. So a pillar of Bradley's logic here

0:58:55.240 --> 0:58:58.160
<v Speaker 2>is the understanding, which for him is reflexive that the

0:58:58.320 --> 0:59:01.440
<v Speaker 2>US would not attack for right. And you do have

0:59:01.480 --> 0:59:03.920
<v Speaker 2>to understand that a lot of these because even the

0:59:03.960 --> 0:59:07.600
<v Speaker 2>only country that ever has right. Yes, I'm not trying

0:59:07.600 --> 0:59:09.560
<v Speaker 2>to argue for this from a logical standard. Yeah, but

0:59:09.600 --> 0:59:12.200
<v Speaker 2>his understanding for why we need to be ready to

0:59:12.320 --> 0:59:15.919
<v Speaker 2>kill everything everywhere if we get nuked is that we

0:59:15.960 --> 0:59:19.000
<v Speaker 2>will be nuked first. Right, He's only everything in terms

0:59:19.040 --> 0:59:21.440
<v Speaker 2>of defense, and this is not where the logic is now,

0:59:21.480 --> 0:59:24.680
<v Speaker 2>So this is important. Initially, the argument by guys like

0:59:24.680 --> 0:59:27.800
<v Speaker 2>Bradley is that if we are nuked, hundreds of thousands

0:59:27.840 --> 0:59:31.040
<v Speaker 2>of Americans or millions will be dead. Right, we might

0:59:31.160 --> 0:59:34.760
<v Speaker 2>nearly all be dead, and so the only response we

0:59:34.800 --> 0:59:37.919
<v Speaker 2>can prepare for is an overwhelming nuclear one that will

0:59:37.920 --> 0:59:41.840
<v Speaker 2>wipe out the enemy in a similar level. Right, That's

0:59:41.960 --> 0:59:45.400
<v Speaker 2>not where things are today. No one waits. No one's

0:59:45.440 --> 0:59:49.640
<v Speaker 2>policy among the two primary nuclear powers. Neither policy is

0:59:49.680 --> 0:59:52.480
<v Speaker 2>wait until we have a bloody nose to calculate our

0:59:52.520 --> 0:59:54.920
<v Speaker 2>strike back. Right. That is important, you understand, But it's

0:59:54.960 --> 0:59:57.000
<v Speaker 2>important to understand. That's where a guy like Bradley is

0:59:57.040 --> 1:00:01.560
<v Speaker 2>starting from, and what became our current nuclear strategy diverged

1:00:01.560 --> 1:00:05.320
<v Speaker 2>from Bradley's purely defensive strategy when guys like General Leslie

1:00:05.360 --> 1:00:09.120
<v Speaker 2>Groves started pondering what the future had to bring. Groves

1:00:09.160 --> 1:00:13.160
<v Speaker 2>described a theoretical nuclear war as unendurable and believe that

1:00:13.200 --> 1:00:16.760
<v Speaker 2>the existence of nuclear weapons made that such a war unthinkable.

1:00:17.040 --> 1:00:19.040
<v Speaker 2>But that wasn't just a statement of recognition, it was

1:00:19.080 --> 1:00:22.800
<v Speaker 2>a strategic plan in order to protect itself. Groves thought

1:00:23.000 --> 1:00:25.200
<v Speaker 2>the US had to make the concept of nuclear war

1:00:25.280 --> 1:00:28.680
<v Speaker 2>unthinkable to its enemies. And this is going to end.

1:00:28.680 --> 1:00:30.240
<v Speaker 2>This is going to start with, well, we need to

1:00:30.280 --> 1:00:32.160
<v Speaker 2>have some nukes of our own. Well, we need to

1:00:32.200 --> 1:00:35.040
<v Speaker 2>have bombers that are spread out and always ready to

1:00:35.080 --> 1:00:37.720
<v Speaker 2>take off, and those planes need to always have bombs

1:00:37.720 --> 1:00:39.680
<v Speaker 2>in them so that it could cut down the amount

1:00:39.720 --> 1:00:41.320
<v Speaker 2>of time it would take them to get into the air,

1:00:41.360 --> 1:00:43.800
<v Speaker 2>so that we can guarantee we'll have a response. And

1:00:43.840 --> 1:00:46.040
<v Speaker 2>if we can guarantee that we'll have response no matter

1:00:46.080 --> 1:00:50.280
<v Speaker 2>how quickly the enemy bombs us first, then they'll never

1:00:50.360 --> 1:00:52.160
<v Speaker 2>bomb us because they know that they're going to get

1:00:52.240 --> 1:00:54.920
<v Speaker 2>nuked back into the Stone Age in return. Right, But

1:00:55.040 --> 1:00:58.000
<v Speaker 2>then where we go from here is well, actually, with

1:00:58.280 --> 1:01:01.240
<v Speaker 2>ICBMs and shit, it's not enough to just have planes

1:01:01.240 --> 1:01:03.440
<v Speaker 2>on the runway. You need to always have some planes

1:01:03.480 --> 1:01:06.240
<v Speaker 2>in the air and some subs at sea that are

1:01:06.320 --> 1:01:09.200
<v Speaker 2>nuclear armed and ready to strike, which means you always

1:01:09.200 --> 1:01:12.080
<v Speaker 2>have planes with live nuclear bombs. Flanger right. You see

1:01:12.080 --> 1:01:15.280
<v Speaker 2>how the logic starts in this with Bradley. There's a reason,

1:01:15.280 --> 1:01:19.400
<v Speaker 2>there's some rationality, and if an enemy kills millions of us,

1:01:19.440 --> 1:01:21.160
<v Speaker 2>we need to be ready to strike back. And the

1:01:21.200 --> 1:01:24.200
<v Speaker 2>only possible strike back is going to be cataclysmic because

1:01:24.240 --> 1:01:27.360
<v Speaker 2>we've been nuked, right, And it goes to we always

1:01:27.440 --> 1:01:29.680
<v Speaker 2>have to have planes in the air and submarines in

1:01:29.720 --> 1:01:32.040
<v Speaker 2>the ground with live nuclear missiles one hundred percent of

1:01:32.080 --> 1:01:35.520
<v Speaker 2>the time. That esk and you get there very quickly.

1:01:35.560 --> 1:01:38.240
<v Speaker 2>That escalation chain hits that point as soon as the

1:01:38.280 --> 1:01:41.880
<v Speaker 2>technology becomes available, right an extent, it drives the technology.

1:01:42.520 --> 1:01:45.560
<v Speaker 2>In nineteen forty five, military leaders in the US started

1:01:45.560 --> 1:01:47.720
<v Speaker 2>putting forward variations of a battle plan that called for

1:01:47.800 --> 1:01:51.800
<v Speaker 2>simultaneous nuclear attacks on multiple cities. Dale Osmith, and Air

1:01:51.800 --> 1:01:54.920
<v Speaker 2>Force colonel, wrote an article for Air Force Quarterly Review

1:01:55.080 --> 1:01:57.960
<v Speaker 2>where he described this sort of strike simultaneously hitting a

1:01:58.000 --> 1:02:00.560
<v Speaker 2>bunch of enemy cities as a bullet of the heart.

1:02:00.920 --> 1:02:03.760
<v Speaker 2>Smith wrote, the most effective air siege will result by

1:02:03.800 --> 1:02:07.240
<v Speaker 2>concurrently attacking every critical element of an enemy's economy at

1:02:07.240 --> 1:02:10.120
<v Speaker 2>the same time. If all critical systems could be destroyed

1:02:10.120 --> 1:02:12.760
<v Speaker 2>at one blow, so that recuperation were impossible with any

1:02:12.800 --> 1:02:15.360
<v Speaker 2>foreseeable time, there seems to be little question that a

1:02:15.480 --> 1:02:17.560
<v Speaker 2>nation would die, just as surely as a man will

1:02:17.600 --> 1:02:20.120
<v Speaker 2>die if a bullet pierces his heart and his circulating

1:02:20.160 --> 1:02:23.680
<v Speaker 2>system has stopped. Another military planner wrote that his primary

1:02:23.720 --> 1:02:26.360
<v Speaker 2>concern was quote the bomb's potential to break the will

1:02:26.400 --> 1:02:30.280
<v Speaker 2>of nations and peoples by the stimulation of man's primordial fears,

1:02:30.440 --> 1:02:33.240
<v Speaker 2>those of the unknown, the invisible, the mysterious.

1:02:34.960 --> 1:02:36.560
<v Speaker 3>So it's just the same shit that they've been saying,

1:02:36.600 --> 1:02:38.080
<v Speaker 3>but at a bigger scale.

1:02:38.280 --> 1:02:42.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Well, and it's interesting how that last guy is

1:02:42.040 --> 1:02:45.480
<v Speaker 2>almost writing is like, we need to create the supernatural

1:02:45.520 --> 1:02:48.080
<v Speaker 2>figure of death and make it real in.

1:02:48.120 --> 1:02:48.560
<v Speaker 3>Order to.

1:02:50.240 --> 1:02:53.240
<v Speaker 2>Ensure that no one will ever fuck with us. Yeah, basically,

1:02:54.920 --> 1:02:58.800
<v Speaker 2>but yeah, it is where we've gone from. You have

1:02:58.880 --> 1:03:02.480
<v Speaker 2>to destroy of an enemy's civilian population that they lose

1:03:02.520 --> 1:03:04.720
<v Speaker 2>them morale to fight. That doesn't work. It doesn't really

1:03:04.720 --> 1:03:08.960
<v Speaker 2>work anywhere. Maybe it works in Japan at the very end, right,

1:03:09.200 --> 1:03:15.160
<v Speaker 2>highly debatable, but it hasn't really turned out. So No,

1:03:15.240 --> 1:03:17.600
<v Speaker 2>we just have to kill all of their civilians, right,

1:03:17.640 --> 1:03:19.560
<v Speaker 2>and we have to be always ready to kill all

1:03:19.600 --> 1:03:22.320
<v Speaker 2>of their civilians, otherwise someone might kill all of our civilians.

1:03:24.080 --> 1:03:27.880
<v Speaker 2>We get there very quickly, and in terms of how

1:03:27.920 --> 1:03:30.280
<v Speaker 2>quickly we get there after the bombing of Hiroshima, but

1:03:30.320 --> 1:03:34.000
<v Speaker 2>before Nagasaki, world War II is not over yet. General

1:03:34.040 --> 1:03:37.240
<v Speaker 2>Groves receives a list from US Army Air Forces of

1:03:37.280 --> 1:03:41.760
<v Speaker 2>potential targets for subsequent nuclear strikes. In the book fifteen minutes,

1:03:41.920 --> 1:03:45.600
<v Speaker 2>Kini writes, quote highlighted were forty key or leading cities,

1:03:45.760 --> 1:03:49.400
<v Speaker 2>each assigned a priority for destruction. A map accompanied the chart,

1:03:49.440 --> 1:03:51.360
<v Speaker 2>and on it were drawn lines that showed the likely

1:03:51.400 --> 1:03:54.600
<v Speaker 2>penetration routes for the A bomb carriers. The forty cities

1:03:54.640 --> 1:03:58.800
<v Speaker 2>were in the Soviet Union. We're still allied with them,

1:03:59.200 --> 1:04:02.560
<v Speaker 2>and we're putting forward plans for the strategic annihilation of

1:04:02.600 --> 1:04:06.480
<v Speaker 2>Soviet cities in nineteen forty five before we bombed Nagasaki. Oh,

1:04:06.480 --> 1:04:09.680
<v Speaker 2>they're talking about the possibility, right. If you want to

1:04:09.680 --> 1:04:12.600
<v Speaker 2>wonder how much of this was to scare the Soviets. Also, oh,

1:04:12.720 --> 1:04:15.880
<v Speaker 2>that's on the table in nineteen forty five, we're still

1:04:15.880 --> 1:04:17.959
<v Speaker 2>fighting with them, like ally.

1:04:18.120 --> 1:04:20.919
<v Speaker 3>I mean that guys, like we're always fighting the last war,

1:04:20.920 --> 1:04:22.720
<v Speaker 3>but they're also always fighting the next ward.

1:04:22.800 --> 1:04:25.240
<v Speaker 2>It's the I mean, just in other because I know

1:04:25.400 --> 1:04:28.920
<v Speaker 2>I'm not a Soviet Union Stan, but the amount of

1:04:28.960 --> 1:04:31.920
<v Speaker 2>bad faith the US is engaging in from the beginning

1:04:32.000 --> 1:04:34.720
<v Speaker 2>and our relationship with them is fucking nuts.

1:04:35.160 --> 1:04:38.040
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, Like, I understand why they wanted the nuke.

1:04:38.200 --> 1:04:41.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I get why they were paranoid about US nuking them.

1:04:41.840 --> 1:04:47.280
<v Speaker 2>We really wanted to nuke them. Yeah, So all of

1:04:47.280 --> 1:04:49.720
<v Speaker 2>what's happening comes as a nightmare to the man who'd

1:04:49.720 --> 1:04:53.400
<v Speaker 2>helped set everything into motion, Leo Zillard. He seems to

1:04:53.440 --> 1:04:56.000
<v Speaker 2>have seen what was coming before the first bomb was dropped,

1:04:56.240 --> 1:04:59.240
<v Speaker 2>after LeMay began his firebombing campaign. I think maybe this

1:04:59.280 --> 1:05:01.360
<v Speaker 2>is just a situation. He saw what a bombing on

1:05:01.400 --> 1:05:05.120
<v Speaker 2>that scale would do, right, And he decides he had

1:05:05.160 --> 1:05:08.080
<v Speaker 2>been wrong really like maybe not wrong about trying to

1:05:08.080 --> 1:05:10.040
<v Speaker 2>get a nuke before the Nazis got it, but that

1:05:10.120 --> 1:05:13.960
<v Speaker 2>it shouldn't be used under any circumstances. And he starts

1:05:14.000 --> 1:05:17.160
<v Speaker 2>protesting the slaughter of Japanese civilians by US air power.

1:05:17.360 --> 1:05:19.760
<v Speaker 2>In June of nineteen forty five, Leo leads a group

1:05:19.800 --> 1:05:21.920
<v Speaker 2>of scientists from the University of Chicago to send a

1:05:21.960 --> 1:05:25.160
<v Speaker 2>report to the Manhattan Project leadership. In it, he requests

1:05:25.160 --> 1:05:27.760
<v Speaker 2>that they demonstrate their nuclear de weapon for the first

1:05:27.760 --> 1:05:31.120
<v Speaker 2>time in an uninhabited area, right so, before we bomb Heroshima.

1:05:31.440 --> 1:05:33.560
<v Speaker 2>He has a letter of reports sent to the Manhattan

1:05:33.600 --> 1:05:38.080
<v Speaker 2>Project being like, please don't set this off for the

1:05:38.120 --> 1:05:40.640
<v Speaker 2>first time in a city full of people, Like set

1:05:40.640 --> 1:05:43.560
<v Speaker 2>it off in the middle of nowhere, to scare Japan

1:05:43.600 --> 1:05:46.720
<v Speaker 2>at a surrendering right now, we don't do this. There's

1:05:46.720 --> 1:05:48.800
<v Speaker 2>a few reasons for We're not sure the bomb's gonna work,

1:05:49.120 --> 1:05:51.160
<v Speaker 2>and it would be really bad if we promised Japan

1:05:51.200 --> 1:05:53.920
<v Speaker 2>the biggest bomb ever and then nothing happens, Right, So

1:05:53.960 --> 1:05:59.160
<v Speaker 2>there's a worry of that now. Sillard his justification for

1:05:59.240 --> 1:06:02.080
<v Speaker 2>why we need to not murder a city with a

1:06:02.160 --> 1:06:05.960
<v Speaker 2>nuke is that it'll harm the US's reputation going forward,

1:06:05.960 --> 1:06:08.480
<v Speaker 2>and it'll set off a deadly chain reaction. Right if

1:06:08.480 --> 1:06:10.600
<v Speaker 2>the first use of a nuclear weapon is in war,

1:06:10.680 --> 1:06:13.960
<v Speaker 2>destroying a civilian city. Sillard believes quote. This new means

1:06:13.960 --> 1:06:17.080
<v Speaker 2>of indiscriminate destruction will spark an arms race, and soon

1:06:17.200 --> 1:06:20.000
<v Speaker 2>every powerful country will want a nuclear arsenal of their own,

1:06:20.280 --> 1:06:22.880
<v Speaker 2>and the entire survival of humanity will be imperiled. Like

1:06:22.920 --> 1:06:25.840
<v Speaker 2>if we start by nuking a city, we have no

1:06:26.440 --> 1:06:29.400
<v Speaker 2>we have no sort of moral standing to be like,

1:06:29.600 --> 1:06:30.560
<v Speaker 2>don't none of.

1:06:30.520 --> 1:06:32.120
<v Speaker 3>You use these? Right?

1:06:32.480 --> 1:06:35.560
<v Speaker 2>You guys stay away from them. Well, we'll keep ours,

1:06:35.680 --> 1:06:37.600
<v Speaker 2>but you guys don't build them. You can trust us

1:06:37.680 --> 1:06:38.880
<v Speaker 2>not to use them, right?

1:06:39.720 --> 1:06:43.720
<v Speaker 3>Yeah? Yeah, ouck, this is less than one hundred years ago.

1:06:43.760 --> 1:06:47.320
<v Speaker 3>It's like the other less yes thing, Like I've met

1:06:47.320 --> 1:06:51.920
<v Speaker 3>people who you know are older than this. Yep, you know, yep,

1:06:52.360 --> 1:06:53.840
<v Speaker 3>some of you listening are older than this.

1:06:54.600 --> 1:06:57.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah yeah, there must be a couple, right, It's it's

1:06:58.000 --> 1:07:01.840
<v Speaker 2>good stuff, so you know. Sillard starts off being the

1:07:01.840 --> 1:07:04.120
<v Speaker 2>guy who sends Roosevelt a letter saying we need to

1:07:04.160 --> 1:07:06.960
<v Speaker 2>build this thing, and he ends out being like, we,

1:07:07.320 --> 1:07:10.480
<v Speaker 2>under no circumstances can we use these things? Yeah, please

1:07:10.760 --> 1:07:15.280
<v Speaker 2>please don't embark down this road to madness. That poor man, Yeah,

1:07:15.360 --> 1:07:18.480
<v Speaker 2>it's fucked up. And another poor man is Lewis Slutton.

1:07:18.960 --> 1:07:22.480
<v Speaker 2>So Lewis sluttin finds himself increasingly horrified. In March of

1:07:22.560 --> 1:07:24.600
<v Speaker 2>nineteen forty six, he writes to a friend, I have

1:07:24.720 --> 1:07:27.360
<v Speaker 2>become involved in the Navy tests, much to my disgust.

1:07:27.560 --> 1:07:29.040
<v Speaker 2>The reason for this is that I am one of

1:07:29.040 --> 1:07:31.600
<v Speaker 2>the few people left here who are experienced bomb put

1:07:31.600 --> 1:07:35.280
<v Speaker 2>her togetherers. He's already disgusted it being with the Navy.

1:07:36.240 --> 1:07:38.800
<v Speaker 2>He doesn't like what he's doing. In an article for

1:07:38.840 --> 1:07:42.440
<v Speaker 2>The Beaver, a Canadian publication of record, Zelig writes, despite

1:07:42.440 --> 1:07:45.040
<v Speaker 2>his seeming zeal, there are hints that Slutin might not

1:07:45.080 --> 1:07:47.240
<v Speaker 2>have been enamored with Adam Baum's per se. And in

1:07:47.320 --> 1:07:51.320
<v Speaker 2>nineteen eighty two, Winnipeg Free Press story journalist Val Wearer

1:07:51.640 --> 1:07:54.880
<v Speaker 2>writes that Slotin's father was astonished to hear after Hiroshima

1:07:54.920 --> 1:07:56.960
<v Speaker 2>that his son had been working on the atomic bomb.

1:07:57.240 --> 1:07:59.920
<v Speaker 2>The response was, we had to get it before the Germans.

1:08:00.280 --> 1:08:04.120
<v Speaker 2>Winnipeg lawyer Israel Ludwig Slowden's nephew recalls his mother saying

1:08:04.120 --> 1:08:06.080
<v Speaker 2>that Uncle Lou was troubled by what he was doing

1:08:06.120 --> 1:08:09.240
<v Speaker 2>in Los Alamos. In November of nineteen eighty nine, Philip Morrison,

1:08:09.360 --> 1:08:11.160
<v Speaker 2>in a terse note to me scribbled at the bottom

1:08:11.200 --> 1:08:13.120
<v Speaker 2>of my letter of inquiry to him, wrote that he

1:08:13.160 --> 1:08:15.680
<v Speaker 2>and Slowtin talked a good deal about war in peace,

1:08:16.439 --> 1:08:20.040
<v Speaker 2>so he is starting to He's become pretty quickly after

1:08:20.080 --> 1:08:23.280
<v Speaker 2>the war decided that like this is not a good

1:08:23.320 --> 1:08:26.840
<v Speaker 2>path to be going down, and he puts his notice

1:08:26.840 --> 1:08:29.400
<v Speaker 2>in at Los Alamos in nineteen forty six, upset at

1:08:29.439 --> 1:08:32.920
<v Speaker 2>the future that he sees looming for his troubled part child. Tragically,

1:08:33.000 --> 1:08:35.920
<v Speaker 2>just days before he would have quit, Slotin performs a

1:08:35.960 --> 1:08:39.479
<v Speaker 2>demonstration of the same basic tickling the dragon's tail technique

1:08:39.520 --> 1:08:41.680
<v Speaker 2>that had so recently killed his friend. He's teaching a

1:08:41.720 --> 1:08:44.920
<v Speaker 2>new guy how to do it. History repeated itself. Slowdin

1:08:45.040 --> 1:08:48.200
<v Speaker 2>drops the core and he throws himself in front of

1:08:48.200 --> 1:08:51.280
<v Speaker 2>the new guy to take the brunt of the radiation,

1:08:52.320 --> 1:08:55.600
<v Speaker 2>and he like, within hours he's vomiting and like his

1:08:55.720 --> 1:08:58.680
<v Speaker 2>body is starting to turn into soup. They keep him

1:08:58.720 --> 1:09:01.599
<v Speaker 2>alive for nine days in the hospital, but there's never

1:09:01.640 --> 1:09:03.400
<v Speaker 2>any hope. They would it would have been kinder to

1:09:03.400 --> 1:09:04.240
<v Speaker 2>shoot him in the head.

1:09:05.280 --> 1:09:07.000
<v Speaker 3>And one of the kid who I knew, a kid

1:09:07.000 --> 1:09:10.880
<v Speaker 3>who survived Chernobyl and was living in the US and

1:09:11.000 --> 1:09:13.360
<v Speaker 3>was like a kid and was like going to die

1:09:13.520 --> 1:09:14.280
<v Speaker 3>of chernobyl.

1:09:14.560 --> 1:09:20.439
<v Speaker 2>Oh god, h cool stuff. Yeah, and one of the

1:09:20.479 --> 1:09:22.840
<v Speaker 2>I mean one of Slotan's an amazing guy. As soon

1:09:22.880 --> 1:09:25.840
<v Speaker 2>as he realizes what's happening, everybody else evacuates. He knows

1:09:25.880 --> 1:09:28.320
<v Speaker 2>that he's been exposed too much to evacuate. He immediately

1:09:28.479 --> 1:09:30.559
<v Speaker 2>draws a map of where everyone had been in the room,

1:09:30.720 --> 1:09:33.559
<v Speaker 2>so that when they're researching what had happened to him,

1:09:33.760 --> 1:09:36.360
<v Speaker 2>they can gain a better understanding of how nuclear radiation

1:09:36.560 --> 1:09:39.519
<v Speaker 2>kills people. That's his like immediate action is to like

1:09:39.600 --> 1:09:42.120
<v Speaker 2>sketch out where everyone was when the device went off.

1:09:42.320 --> 1:09:44.599
<v Speaker 3>Yah, and live by the science, die by the science.

1:09:45.200 --> 1:09:48.479
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Like that, he's he's consciously being studied. He like

1:09:48.640 --> 1:09:51.240
<v Speaker 2>knows that he's trying to be a better at least

1:09:51.280 --> 1:09:54.920
<v Speaker 2>get something out of his death. Annie Jacobson describes it

1:09:54.960 --> 1:09:57.639
<v Speaker 2>in a like the aftermath of this in a harrowing

1:09:57.680 --> 1:10:00.360
<v Speaker 2>way in her book Nuclear War A scenario quote, the

1:10:00.439 --> 1:10:02.960
<v Speaker 2>mess inside Slowtin's dead body was like a sea of

1:10:03.040 --> 1:10:06.479
<v Speaker 2>rotten soup. His blood was uncoaggulable at autopsy. One of

1:10:06.520 --> 1:10:10.280
<v Speaker 2>the doctors wrote in a classified postmodem report the radiation

1:10:10.360 --> 1:10:12.840
<v Speaker 2>poisoning had caused the near complete loss of tissue that

1:10:12.920 --> 1:10:15.719
<v Speaker 2>once separated one of Slowtin's organs from the next. Without

1:10:15.720 --> 1:10:17.720
<v Speaker 2>this lining, his organs had merged into one.

1:10:19.200 --> 1:10:22.559
<v Speaker 3>So bad, don't build the torment nexus.

1:10:22.640 --> 1:10:26.080
<v Speaker 2>Don't build the torment nexus. You might wind up soup.

1:10:27.439 --> 1:10:29.000
<v Speaker 3>Fuck cool.

1:10:29.240 --> 1:10:31.320
<v Speaker 2>Anyway, Margaret, how are you feeling about nukes?

1:10:31.439 --> 1:10:35.599
<v Speaker 3>Jesus from you know, I'm pretty excited that uh, if

1:10:35.600 --> 1:10:39.360
<v Speaker 3>I buck, it be completely gone.

1:10:39.680 --> 1:10:40.920
<v Speaker 2>I thought it happened this second.

1:10:41.560 --> 1:10:47.760
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, well, you know, I quantum immortality says that I'm

1:10:47.760 --> 1:10:50.240
<v Speaker 3>going to continue to live in a timeline where I

1:10:50.320 --> 1:10:51.360
<v Speaker 3>don't die this way.

1:10:51.640 --> 1:10:54.639
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it'll probably be fine. It'll probably be fine.

1:10:54.960 --> 1:10:58.559
<v Speaker 3>Yeah right, yeah, yeah, I don't know. It's it's so

1:10:58.760 --> 1:11:01.720
<v Speaker 3>interesting because you know, fear of nuclear annihilation was like

1:11:01.760 --> 1:11:06.960
<v Speaker 3>such an important part of my parents' generations lives, and

1:11:07.000 --> 1:11:11.760
<v Speaker 3>it's watching it creep back in is not fun, No,

1:11:12.720 --> 1:11:15.960
<v Speaker 3>but it I don't know, I don't know where I'm

1:11:15.960 --> 1:11:18.800
<v Speaker 3>going with this. It's just it's a it's a nightmareish thing.

1:11:19.040 --> 1:11:22.720
<v Speaker 3>But it it's so frustrating because you look at this,

1:11:23.160 --> 1:11:25.080
<v Speaker 3>it's that game theory shit that all of the worst

1:11:25.080 --> 1:11:27.640
<v Speaker 3>people you know are excited about. Yeah, Like it's like,

1:11:28.400 --> 1:11:32.640
<v Speaker 3>if you take any lethal weapons self defense class They're like,

1:11:33.160 --> 1:11:35.200
<v Speaker 3>the best way to win a gunfight is don't get

1:11:35.200 --> 1:11:36.040
<v Speaker 3>into a gunfight.

1:11:36.240 --> 1:11:38.040
<v Speaker 2>Avoid a gunfight at all. It's the same way to

1:11:38.080 --> 1:11:39.280
<v Speaker 2>win a knife fight, really.

1:11:39.240 --> 1:11:41.360
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, Yeah, the best way to win a knife fight

1:11:41.400 --> 1:11:43.479
<v Speaker 3>is to run before the knives touch anybody.

1:11:43.520 --> 1:11:46.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, is to be nowhere near a knife fight. Yeah,

1:11:46.640 --> 1:11:48.439
<v Speaker 2>you're a winner of a knife fight every day.

1:11:48.840 --> 1:11:53.519
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, exactly. And it's just so frustrating because it's I

1:11:53.560 --> 1:11:55.599
<v Speaker 3>don't know, I've been, I've been, you know. I with

1:11:55.680 --> 1:11:58.720
<v Speaker 3>my podcast Cool People Did Cool Stuff, talked a lot

1:11:58.760 --> 1:12:02.320
<v Speaker 3>about the you know, early punk and the stuff that

1:12:02.400 --> 1:12:04.600
<v Speaker 3>led into a lot of modern protest movement stuff, and

1:12:04.640 --> 1:12:06.720
<v Speaker 3>a lot of it is from the anti nuke movement. Yeah,

1:12:06.720 --> 1:12:10.280
<v Speaker 3>and it's confusing to look at from the modern perspective,

1:12:11.120 --> 1:12:13.080
<v Speaker 3>but if you put yourselves in the shoes of like

1:12:13.120 --> 1:12:17.000
<v Speaker 3>the kids who grew up in this m you're like, yeah, no,

1:12:17.120 --> 1:12:19.000
<v Speaker 3>that actually just makes a lot of sense.

1:12:19.280 --> 1:12:21.599
<v Speaker 2>Well, yeah, I mean, we could talk about because a

1:12:21.640 --> 1:12:24.040
<v Speaker 2>lot of the fear of nuclear power is because of

1:12:24.080 --> 1:12:26.960
<v Speaker 2>how prominent the fear of annihilation from nukes, and if

1:12:27.000 --> 1:12:29.840
<v Speaker 2>they never start out being a weapon for killing civilians,

1:12:30.200 --> 1:12:32.880
<v Speaker 2>maybe there's not the kind of resistance to nuclear power,

1:12:32.880 --> 1:12:34.960
<v Speaker 2>which could have avoided a lot of problems VIASA, the

1:12:35.080 --> 1:12:39.439
<v Speaker 2>climate change. You know, maybe that's maybe not, but I

1:12:39.720 --> 1:12:41.920
<v Speaker 2>do think that a lot of our fears which are

1:12:41.960 --> 1:12:45.280
<v Speaker 2>not fully rational. There are some rational fears regarding nuclear power,

1:12:45.320 --> 1:12:47.400
<v Speaker 2>but a lot of it is just people that are

1:12:47.439 --> 1:12:53.559
<v Speaker 2>scared of nukes for other reasons. Right, Yeah, I don't know.

1:12:53.920 --> 1:12:58.400
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, Margaret, like the we probably shouldn't always

1:12:58.400 --> 1:13:00.880
<v Speaker 2>have a doomsday device. I will say where I differ

1:13:00.880 --> 1:13:03.120
<v Speaker 2>from a lot of people right now, and this has

1:13:03.160 --> 1:13:06.200
<v Speaker 2>become increasingly the case the more I've studied it. I'm

1:13:06.200 --> 1:13:09.760
<v Speaker 2>not really more worried about Trump being the president than

1:13:09.800 --> 1:13:14.639
<v Speaker 2>anybody else in regards to that. Okay, I think maybe,

1:13:14.680 --> 1:13:16.599
<v Speaker 2>I guess maybe there's an argument maybe he'd be dumb

1:13:16.720 --> 1:13:20.040
<v Speaker 2>enough to try and use make a limited nuclear strike,

1:13:20.240 --> 1:13:22.840
<v Speaker 2>right or maybe his policies in terms of like the

1:13:22.880 --> 1:13:25.960
<v Speaker 2>military or degrading readiness to a degree that might make

1:13:26.000 --> 1:13:27.960
<v Speaker 2>it likelier for one of these missiles to wind up

1:13:27.960 --> 1:13:30.800
<v Speaker 2>in the wind or something. Certainly, the fact that we

1:13:30.840 --> 1:13:33.880
<v Speaker 2>are now like both the US and Russia are talking

1:13:33.880 --> 1:13:37.160
<v Speaker 2>about resuming nuclear tests is bad. But in terms of

1:13:37.320 --> 1:13:40.680
<v Speaker 2>how how would Trump behave if he was put in

1:13:40.720 --> 1:13:42.680
<v Speaker 2>that you got six minutes to destroy whether or not

1:13:42.720 --> 1:13:46.280
<v Speaker 2>to kill everyone on Earth scenario. I'm not sure anyone's

1:13:46.479 --> 1:13:50.880
<v Speaker 2>more competent than anyone else in that scenario. Yeah, fair right,

1:13:51.400 --> 1:13:54.680
<v Speaker 2>Like it's fundamentally and this is something Jacobsen points out

1:13:54.680 --> 1:13:56.920
<v Speaker 2>in her book is that when you talk to because

1:13:56.960 --> 1:13:59.360
<v Speaker 2>a lot of guys whose job was in the nuclear

1:13:59.400 --> 1:14:02.320
<v Speaker 2>weapons thing for the Department of Defense or for the

1:14:02.640 --> 1:14:06.080
<v Speaker 2>like the Strategic Air Command, like a lot of those

1:14:06.080 --> 1:14:07.720
<v Speaker 2>guys have versions of the same thing, which is that

1:14:07.840 --> 1:14:11.280
<v Speaker 2>like the president, didn't the president at my time, They've

1:14:11.280 --> 1:14:14.080
<v Speaker 2>said this about multiple presidents. The presidents that I dealt

1:14:14.120 --> 1:14:17.320
<v Speaker 2>with never seemed very interested in it. They didn't ask questions,

1:14:17.360 --> 1:14:19.679
<v Speaker 2>they didn't want to know much. They didn't like thinking

1:14:19.720 --> 1:14:20.439
<v Speaker 2>about it.

1:14:20.560 --> 1:14:22.920
<v Speaker 3>Right, That's that's what I would do if I was

1:14:22.960 --> 1:14:25.080
<v Speaker 3>the president, as I would not want to think about it.

1:14:25.120 --> 1:14:28.439
<v Speaker 3>And like and well, we haven't told anyone about your

1:14:28.520 --> 1:14:30.320
<v Speaker 3>run for president yet, but we'll talk about that later.

1:14:30.400 --> 1:14:33.799
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'm talking about that later. I'm going to use them.

1:14:35.240 --> 1:14:38.320
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, we know, defensively, we're going to go and dry

1:14:38.400 --> 1:14:39.439
<v Speaker 3>up the lakes ahead of time.

1:14:39.600 --> 1:14:42.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but yeah, it's a defensive first strike on the lakes.

1:14:42.280 --> 1:14:45.120
<v Speaker 3>The thing that maybe I shouldn't be worried about, the

1:14:45.120 --> 1:14:47.240
<v Speaker 3>thing I worry about. People always talk about AI destroying

1:14:47.320 --> 1:14:49.479
<v Speaker 3>humanity because it will take control of the weapons. That's

1:14:49.520 --> 1:14:52.160
<v Speaker 3>not what I'm worried about. But people have been worried

1:14:52.160 --> 1:14:55.200
<v Speaker 3>about that for decades. Right, I'm worried about AI taking

1:14:55.240 --> 1:15:00.760
<v Speaker 3>control of the military systems that track things and do stuff. Yeah,

1:15:00.840 --> 1:15:03.800
<v Speaker 3>and hallucinate in ICBM Like.

1:15:04.000 --> 1:15:08.639
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, because we've had that happen the analog way, right,

1:15:08.720 --> 1:15:11.439
<v Speaker 2>Someone's put in the wrong tape and they've accidentally started

1:15:11.439 --> 1:15:14.280
<v Speaker 2>a training mission that it looks like ICBMs are headed

1:15:14.439 --> 1:15:16.800
<v Speaker 2>towards our Like variants of that have happened to the

1:15:16.880 --> 1:15:22.799
<v Speaker 2>US and the Soviet Union, right, Yeah, and human decision

1:15:22.840 --> 1:15:26.639
<v Speaker 2>making is largely what stopped a catastrophe from happening. And yeah,

1:15:26.840 --> 1:15:30.920
<v Speaker 2>the impulse to remove humans from it is really bad. Like,

1:15:31.000 --> 1:15:33.120
<v Speaker 2>I don't believe in skynet. I think it's silly to

1:15:33.120 --> 1:15:35.880
<v Speaker 2>believe that, like, oh, this AI will automatically seek to

1:15:35.880 --> 1:15:38.160
<v Speaker 2>destroy humanity. I think it's very reasonable to be like, well,

1:15:38.200 --> 1:15:39.880
<v Speaker 2>if we connect AI to any of this at all,

1:15:40.280 --> 1:15:42.960
<v Speaker 2>it's just going to amplify the chances that somebody fucks

1:15:43.000 --> 1:15:44.400
<v Speaker 2>up in a way that ends with the nukes aal

1:15:44.520 --> 1:15:47.719
<v Speaker 2>going off. Right, Yeah, you've just you're making you're making

1:15:47.720 --> 1:15:50.920
<v Speaker 2>it more complicated, and that increases the odds that we

1:15:51.040 --> 1:15:52.360
<v Speaker 2>kill everybody every time.

1:15:52.720 --> 1:15:57.640
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it makes more mistakes than people, which is embarrassing. Yeah,

1:15:57.680 --> 1:15:59.439
<v Speaker 3>because we make a lot of mistakes.

1:15:59.840 --> 1:16:02.200
<v Speaker 2>And this is you know, you've had both Obama and

1:16:02.280 --> 1:16:06.160
<v Speaker 2>Biden promised during their runs to basically take us a

1:16:06.240 --> 1:16:08.680
<v Speaker 2>little bit back from where we always stand on the

1:16:08.760 --> 1:16:11.600
<v Speaker 2>escalation ladder, to like change our policies so that we

1:16:11.640 --> 1:16:14.920
<v Speaker 2>would not basically our policy would not be launched the

1:16:15.040 --> 1:16:18.280
<v Speaker 2>nukes as soon as we get scared, and neither of

1:16:18.360 --> 1:16:22.040
<v Speaker 2>them did anything. You know, there's and this is there's

1:16:22.040 --> 1:16:23.680
<v Speaker 2>a couple of stories like that. One of the things

1:16:23.800 --> 1:16:27.599
<v Speaker 2>Jacobson talks about is that like once North Korea started

1:16:27.680 --> 1:16:30.200
<v Speaker 2>using ICBMs and it became clear that because you can't

1:16:30.240 --> 1:16:33.040
<v Speaker 2>really stop an ICBM, we have these we have like

1:16:33.160 --> 1:16:36.160
<v Speaker 2>forty something of these intercept missiles that are supposed to

1:16:36.160 --> 1:16:38.880
<v Speaker 2>be able to shoot down an ICBM, but they don't.

1:16:39.240 --> 1:16:42.760
<v Speaker 2>They have like a fifty percent success rate in like tests.

1:16:43.120 --> 1:16:45.559
<v Speaker 2>But that's even overstating it because the way they work.

1:16:45.560 --> 1:16:48.040
<v Speaker 2>They're not even a bombs, they're dumb. They're bullets. They

1:16:48.040 --> 1:16:50.960
<v Speaker 2>have to hit the missile directly while it's in flight.

1:16:51.360 --> 1:16:53.640
<v Speaker 2>And if they don't, you missed by an inch, You

1:16:53.640 --> 1:16:56.040
<v Speaker 2>missed by a mile, right, like, Yeah, and we have

1:16:56.320 --> 1:16:59.240
<v Speaker 2>very few of them, so the odds of us and

1:16:59.280 --> 1:17:02.000
<v Speaker 2>we would have very little time to actually deploy any

1:17:02.080 --> 1:17:02.880
<v Speaker 2>or have them ready.

1:17:03.080 --> 1:17:06.439
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and that new movie is actually pretty well researched

1:17:06.439 --> 1:17:07.720
<v Speaker 3>about it. I can't remember what it's called, but I

1:17:07.760 --> 1:17:08.840
<v Speaker 3>watched it a couple of weeks ago.

1:17:08.920 --> 1:17:10.720
<v Speaker 2>And yeah, I've heard it's good. But the fear in

1:17:10.760 --> 1:17:14.680
<v Speaker 2>me we should be scared, should we should not be

1:17:14.760 --> 1:17:17.360
<v Speaker 2>doing anything the way that we're doing it when in

1:17:17.400 --> 1:17:20.880
<v Speaker 2>regards to nuclear weapons. But if history is a guide,

1:17:20.880 --> 1:17:24.000
<v Speaker 2>we're going to keep doing it. So anyway, people should

1:17:24.040 --> 1:17:26.439
<v Speaker 2>check out your podcast Cool People who did cool stuff

1:17:26.640 --> 1:17:29.240
<v Speaker 2>while they can. Yeah, while they can, they should check

1:17:29.240 --> 1:17:33.840
<v Speaker 2>out our Pathfinder tabletop gaming episodes of it could happen

1:17:33.840 --> 1:17:37.320
<v Speaker 2>here on our book club weekend show. That's fun. That'll

1:17:37.360 --> 1:17:40.200
<v Speaker 2>distract you briefly at the looming apocalypse that awaits us.

1:17:40.200 --> 1:17:44.559
<v Speaker 2>All yea, and for other distractions from the apocalypse, keep

1:17:44.600 --> 1:17:47.760
<v Speaker 2>listening to podcasts. Don't think about how bad things are.

1:17:48.000 --> 1:17:52.160
<v Speaker 2>Don't think about the fact that literally nothing can save

1:17:52.200 --> 1:17:54.679
<v Speaker 2>you if the nukes all fall. There's no defense, there's

1:17:54.680 --> 1:17:57.840
<v Speaker 2>no prepping for it. There's just death on a scale

1:17:57.880 --> 1:18:01.120
<v Speaker 2>almost uncomprehensible. Don't think about that, think about podcasts.

1:18:01.200 --> 1:18:03.120
<v Speaker 3>Just remember that you were going to die anyway.

1:18:03.360 --> 1:18:03.639
<v Speaker 2>Sure.

1:18:04.280 --> 1:18:05.800
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, tell your friends you love them.

1:18:06.040 --> 1:18:07.680
<v Speaker 2>Tell your friends you love them, and tell them to

1:18:07.720 --> 1:18:09.880
<v Speaker 2>listen to Behind the Bastards and cool people who did

1:18:09.960 --> 1:18:11.360
<v Speaker 2>cool stuff. That's what's most important.

1:18:11.400 --> 1:18:11.720
<v Speaker 3>That's right.

1:18:11.880 --> 1:18:13.439
<v Speaker 2>If you can't tell them you love them, tell them

1:18:13.439 --> 1:18:15.160
<v Speaker 2>about the podcast that you love. Yeah.

1:18:15.200 --> 1:18:16.960
<v Speaker 3>That's actually a way to tell people you love them.

1:18:16.960 --> 1:18:19.400
<v Speaker 3>If you can't struggling to say I love you, just

1:18:19.439 --> 1:18:21.719
<v Speaker 3>say listen to cool people did cool stuff and Behind

1:18:21.760 --> 1:18:22.320
<v Speaker 3>Your Bastards.

1:18:22.680 --> 1:18:25.240
<v Speaker 2>Or take their phone, like when they're asleep, use their

1:18:25.240 --> 1:18:28.360
<v Speaker 2>face to unlock it and subscribe automatically to all of

1:18:28.360 --> 1:18:32.640
<v Speaker 2>our podcasts on their phone. Jesus Christ, Sophie. That's like

1:18:32.680 --> 1:18:33.719
<v Speaker 2>a third of our listeners.

1:18:34.320 --> 1:18:37.000
<v Speaker 3>Robert got we got it in the podcast.

1:18:37.080 --> 1:18:39.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah We're done, bye, all right bye everyone.

1:18:41.760 --> 1:18:44.479
<v Speaker 1>Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

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<v Speaker 1>For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool

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<v Speaker 1>zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

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<v Speaker 1>Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Behind the

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<v Speaker 1>Bastards is now available on YouTube, new episodes every Wednesday

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<v Speaker 1>and Friday. Describe to our channel YouTube dot com slash

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<v Speaker 1>at Behind the Bastards