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Speaker 1: Yeah, I from you. Let's just keep a real straight tright.

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Speaker 1: We know, Jason, I'm gonna get a little bit rougher.

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Speaker 1: I'm here for it. Those who really believe in the

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Speaker 1: American process, all of us straight shot, No Chason, what's

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Speaker 1: your girl? Tessela Figure on the Black Effect podcasting that

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Speaker 1: word that work? What's happening? Straight shooters? This is your girl,

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Speaker 1: Tesla and Figure. Oh, thank you so much for joining us.

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Speaker 1: As you know, I have been following the Derek shop

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Speaker 1: In case. I have been connected with the George Floyd

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Speaker 1: family and right now we are in the middle of

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Speaker 1: I would say, the case of the century. They once

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Speaker 1: said that O. J. Simpson trial was the most watch case,

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Speaker 1: the case that really brought the most conversation in our lifetime.

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Speaker 1: And I do believe that this case will superseded Number one,

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Speaker 1: because we have access on so many different platforms than

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Speaker 1: we had during the O. J. Simpson trial. Number too,

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Speaker 1: because people are they are a lot more engaged than

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Speaker 1: what they were over twenty five years ago. I believe

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Speaker 1: the last year was the year anniversary of the O. J.

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Speaker 1: Simpson trial. And three, this takes the Rodney King issue

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Speaker 1: to another level. But once again having us deal with

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Speaker 1: seeing a clear misconduct on tape. Rodney Kings survived, George

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Speaker 1: Floyd died, but really puts us in a position to

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Speaker 1: be able to talk about, you know, racial justice and

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Speaker 1: police brutality and misconduct and all of the things that

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Speaker 1: it encompasses. And because of that, because this case literally

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Speaker 1: was talked about across the world, this will be the

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Speaker 1: most watch case so I have with me joining today

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Speaker 1: attorney at Lee Jackson, who was a wrongful death and

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Speaker 1: civil rights attorney in Orlando, Florida, and she was also

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Speaker 1: trade Bon Martin's local attorney. She's always been someone that

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Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily go to the spotlight. I'm always trying to

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Speaker 1: push your in the spotlight because the number one I

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Speaker 1: think she deserves it. She's brilliant and she really is

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Speaker 1: a fighter for the people. I am so honored to

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Speaker 1: have her, not just because of who she is and

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Speaker 1: her brilliance, but she has been a big sister to

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Speaker 1: me and a friend. You know, she is the one

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Speaker 1: that I call when I say I'm gonna call my attorney,

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Speaker 1: is Natalie Jackson. She's the one that if I'm trying

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Speaker 1: to get somebody to help me lobby on something that's important.

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Speaker 1: She's the one that I call, and she's just been

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Speaker 1: the one that I've called, you know, through hard times.

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Speaker 1: And I want to say this before we get into

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Speaker 1: the interview. When I was working in Oklahoma City after

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Speaker 1: I left Orlando, Florida, and the Monroe Bird case happened,

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Speaker 1: and Natalie was the one you know that connected me,

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Speaker 1: you know, with being crump to make sure that that

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Speaker 1: case was heard. And she also was the one with

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Speaker 1: me that would constantly be saying that the house called victims,

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Speaker 1: you know, deserve to be heard because black women matter too,

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Speaker 1: because at the time, there wasn't a lot of media

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Speaker 1: around black women and police brutality with black women. And

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Speaker 1: so I'm saying that because I want folks to know

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Speaker 1: that there's always people behind the scene that you may

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Speaker 1: not see in the front, that is pushing these issues.

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Speaker 1: And in fact, we are on Pam Turner's birthday in Houston, Texas,

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Speaker 1: who was killed and shot and killed by the police

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Speaker 1: officer while she was pregnant, and a few people know

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Speaker 1: about that case. So we are still working and building

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Speaker 1: to talk about women. And I just wanted people to

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Speaker 1: know that Natalie Jackson has always been someone that has

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Speaker 1: kept her head down and work behind the scenes to

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Speaker 1: get things done, whether she gets the credit for it

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Speaker 1: or not. I wanted to give you your flowers today

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Speaker 1: system in front of everybody else, thank you this. Let

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Speaker 1: me tell you, I am so proud of you, and

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Speaker 1: I am so glad that I know you and the

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Speaker 1: fabulous person that you are. This podcast, so I was

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Speaker 1: so excited to be on it because I knew you

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Speaker 1: and I would really get into it and talk about

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Speaker 1: stuff that other people won't touch. So I'm so excited

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Speaker 1: to be here and let's go. Let's go. So I

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Speaker 1: wanted you on that lie because there's so many different

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Speaker 1: you know, misinformation, misconceptions, and and also because it's hard,

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Speaker 1: you know, trying to get people to understand rules of

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Speaker 1: evidence and court procedures and motions and what witnesses can

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Speaker 1: say and not say. Because for a lot of people,

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Speaker 1: this is the first time they've ever watched a trial,

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Speaker 1: you know, from beginning to end. Everybody's not like me

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Speaker 1: and watches court TV in my spare time. You know,

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Speaker 1: most people, this is their first interaction, you know, with

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Speaker 1: a case. And I'm excited about that because I feel

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Speaker 1: there's so many lessons with this case that we can learn.

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Speaker 1: So take us through, Natalie, and I'm going to you know,

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Speaker 1: I want you to do more talking than I do. Okay, well,

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Speaker 1: let me say before you ask this question, I think

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Speaker 1: you're absolutely right. And I think that I've heard people say,

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Speaker 1: you know, why is it taking so long? This is

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Speaker 1: such an opening, short case. Why are we seeing all

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Speaker 1: these experts and witnesses and people testifying. Why is the

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Speaker 1: prosecutes and dragging this? I think it is because so

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Speaker 1: many people have not seen a case like this. This

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Speaker 1: is an important case, not only to George Floyd's family,

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Speaker 1: but to America and specifically Black America. So I think

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Speaker 1: the prosecution should put on all the witnesses, should put

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Speaker 1: on all the evidence, should put on everything that they

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Speaker 1: can to show what this case is about. So I'm

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Speaker 1: not really mad at the length of time or the

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Speaker 1: amount of evidence that is being put on, even though

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Speaker 1: I do think a lot of it is repetitionous. I

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Speaker 1: think that we need to know that that this is

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Speaker 1: something that, yeah, this is something that everyone knows should

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Speaker 1: not have been done. And I guess we'll just let

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Speaker 1: the conversation flow naturally because it makes me, you know,

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Speaker 1: respond to why that is so important, especially when we

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Speaker 1: talk about training. You know, what we hear in the

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Speaker 1: defund the police movement or reimagine the police, whatever word

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Speaker 1: you want to use, we hear officers need more training.

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Speaker 1: Officers these more training. What this case shows that he

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Speaker 1: was trained appropriately. He had substantial training. So this was

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Speaker 1: not a case. And that's why I agree with you.

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Speaker 1: Let's take our time going through this because I want people,

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Speaker 1: as far as the trial is concerned, let's take our

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Speaker 1: time going through every witness, because there's so many lessons

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Speaker 1: that we can learn outside of this case that we

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Speaker 1: can apply. And that is one which is it's not

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Speaker 1: always about training. It's not always about trying to change

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Speaker 1: somebody's heart. It is about accountability. And so when we

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Speaker 1: look at the fact that he had appropriate training, when

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Speaker 1: we look at the fact that one of his past

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Speaker 1: misconducts was putting a knee on a fourteen year old

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Speaker 1: boys neck, and him being able to have eighteen misconducts

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Speaker 1: in the nineteen year career and still being able to

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Speaker 1: keep a job, that is where we have to say, Okay,

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Speaker 1: what is missing here. So I think it's very easy

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Speaker 1: to say, oh, training, just throw training on it. But

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Speaker 1: what happens, you know, when they've already been trained. Right,

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Speaker 1: and let's go a little further. Not only was he

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Speaker 1: able to keep a job, he was able to train

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Speaker 1: other people. Remember there were two rookies there that he

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Speaker 1: was training and supervising. So I think that you're absolutely right.

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Speaker 1: You know, when we talk about policies training, everyone wants

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Speaker 1: to always throw these things out. They have training, they

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Speaker 1: have policies, they have all of this. What they have

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Speaker 1: not what we have not really approached. And what I

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Speaker 1: think this trial is getting very close to is talking

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Speaker 1: about the culture, the wall of silence. What is the

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Speaker 1: culture in the police force that allows a man like

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Speaker 1: Derek Show to know he's being filmed not only by

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Speaker 1: his body camera, by officers body camera, but by civilians

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Speaker 1: who are upset with him and still not care. Yes,

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Speaker 1: that's so, that's so interesting. You said that because actually

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Speaker 1: in my comments last week, somebody said they were trying

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Speaker 1: to give the argument that we were saying. They were saying, no,

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Speaker 1: they they have the training, or they need more training,

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Speaker 1: And I said, no, what you're talking about is culture.

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Speaker 1: You know, you're talking about what is acceptable. He was

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Speaker 1: saying that they were trained locally. Me put it like this.

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Speaker 1: I said that he wasn't trained to put a knee

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Speaker 1: on the neck. That was not in the training policy.

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Speaker 1: Somebody else came in my comments and said, no, he

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Speaker 1: was trained. There. We keep trying to tell you if

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Speaker 1: they're trained to do this, and I said, no, technically

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Speaker 1: they were not trained to do this, but it is

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Speaker 1: a part of the culture, and that's the difference. So

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Speaker 1: let's let's just make sure we we we davited that

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Speaker 1: what all goes into when you say the culture of

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Speaker 1: it all meaning no accountability meaning uh, sidebars on, Hey,

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Speaker 1: you know we're trained to do this, but really you

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Speaker 1: should do this. When the officer Mackenzie I believe her

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Speaker 1: name was the medical coordinator that used the term superhuman,

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Speaker 1: you know when they're on drugs. What do you mean

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Speaker 1: when you say the culture of it all? When we

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Speaker 1: talk about systematic racism that people don't see in black

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Speaker 1: and white and a manual, let me give you a

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Speaker 1: pervant example that I think everybody who's ever dealt with

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Speaker 1: police are seeing a police on video. When you hear

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Speaker 1: stop resisting and a person is not resisting, that is

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Speaker 1: a part of police culture. Stop resisting, stop resisting because

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Speaker 1: they want that on video, They want that on the

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Speaker 1: body camps on the bit on the audio to show

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Speaker 1: that this person was possibly resisting therefore they had to

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Speaker 1: use force. So and strangely, that's one of the things

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Speaker 1: that's missing from Derek Chauvin. He never said stop resisting.

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Speaker 1: He never said, you know, let me get you, let

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Speaker 1: me get you some help or whatever. So I think

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Speaker 1: that that also goes to the culture of what he

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Speaker 1: is used to. He's used to not being questioned, He's

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Speaker 1: used to if he messes up. And and I'm I'm

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Speaker 1: saying this just I don't know him personally, but the

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Speaker 1: culture of police brotherhood is that if you mess up,

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Speaker 1: I got your back if you if you do something,

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Speaker 1: this is a dangerous job. If you do something, don't worry,

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Speaker 1: we will cover for you. Don't And this is one

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Speaker 1: of the reasons why it's so hard to prosecute these

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Speaker 1: cases because, as you can imagine, the people who are

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Speaker 1: investigating these cases are police officers. So if they fall

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Speaker 1: into that culture, and if they believe in that blue

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Speaker 1: wall of silence, then you're going to get reports. As

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Speaker 1: we see, and as we'll see throughout this trial, you're

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Speaker 1: gonna see reports that were done, you know, a year ago,

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Speaker 1: and they were done by police officers. There's no there's

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Speaker 1: no audio of it. There's usually a transcript. That's what

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Speaker 1: we get in these cases, a transcript of what was

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Speaker 1: said and done, and things may not be actually they're

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Speaker 1: written down, but they may not be truthful. And that's

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Speaker 1: one of the problems when you're dealing with police officers.

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Speaker 1: One of the things we saw in the trade Blon

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Speaker 1: Martin case, I felt was that you even though George

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Speaker 1: Emmon was not a police officer, the police chief in

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Speaker 1: Seminole County in Stanford, he was fired because of the

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Speaker 1: actions that happened. So you had a whole group of

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Speaker 1: police officers who felt her that he had been fired

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Speaker 1: and they wanted to vindicate him. So you saw them

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Speaker 1: get on the stand and basically they live they live.

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Speaker 1: And And when I say that is because it's so

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Speaker 1: slick and it's so insidious of how they do it,

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Speaker 1: and they're working with the defense. I saw something today

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Speaker 1: that I thought was pretty incredible. Um the person from

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Speaker 1: the Minneapolis Bureau euro that was investigating Derek Chauvin, he

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Speaker 1: said that Derek Schauding weighed a hundred and forty pounds

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Speaker 1: was five foot time. Now does that really matter in

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Speaker 1: the long run, It doesn't matter so much. But when

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Speaker 1: you think about these cases where you're talking about the

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Speaker 1: weight of Derek shoving on George Floyd's back, that a

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Speaker 1: hundred and forty pounds doesn't seem like a lot. So

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Speaker 1: when you say that, however, I am like there was

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Speaker 1: no challenge to that who reported that he was a

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Speaker 1: hundred and forty pounds. I mean, can you imagine how

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Speaker 1: he said it was five nine and a hundred and

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Speaker 1: forty pounds? Does that even sound right to you? Know?

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Speaker 1: And and and again up, a hundred and forty pounds

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Speaker 1: is sitting on my neck? You know? So totally. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you can a lot, right if he was a hundred

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Speaker 1: and eighty pounds, a hundred and forty pound, which doesn't

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Speaker 1: make sense to me. But regardless of what they're saying,

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Speaker 1: it was still, bottom line, you know, on his neck, right,

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Speaker 1: there's gonna be medical evidence because the medical exammeter actually said,

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Speaker 1: allegedly when he gave this report to the internal affairs

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Speaker 1: people who are investigating shown initially he alleged he allegedly

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Speaker 1: said that there was not enough weight on George Floyd

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Speaker 1: to be put a positional asphyxiation. Now we don't know

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Speaker 1: if he's gonna testify to that. One of the things

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Speaker 1: I want to tell your listeners is that all everything

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Speaker 1: we've heard in the media and the press, all of

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Speaker 1: this stuff, it's not evidence in the trial. It's got

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Speaker 1: evidence until someone comes in there and testifies to it.

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Speaker 1: So this is what he hasn't testified yet as as

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Speaker 1: of this recording, But that is one of the things

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Speaker 1: that has been reported that he said was that there

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Speaker 1: was not enough weight on George Floyd for him to

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Speaker 1: say this was traditional expeciation. So all of this stuff

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Speaker 1: does matter when it comes down to the jury. And

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Speaker 1: the reason that's why I say, the reason that it

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Speaker 1: matters of how much he weighed one forty and and

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Speaker 1: let's take it out of the context of Derek Sheldon's case.

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Speaker 1: Many times in these self defense cases where they say,

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Speaker 1: you know there's some self defense heighten weight matters, that's

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Speaker 1: one of the things that were connect into consideration. So here,

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Speaker 1: if you have a medical examine or a medical expert

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Speaker 1: saying that the amount of weight does matter, then that

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Speaker 1: could be. But then they're gonna have to figure out

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Speaker 1: what which one is it? Because they also said yesterday

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Speaker 1: that he was on the shoulder blade, So is it

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Speaker 1: the shoulder blade? Is that the nag? Does the weight matter?

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Speaker 1: Does it not matter? The defense seems to be all

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Speaker 1: over the place, you know, was it the drugs? What?

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Speaker 1: What is it? So it's playing to our listeners this

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Speaker 1: grasping for Strang's technique that that we're seeing, because I

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Speaker 1: don't think people understood every day is something different from

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Speaker 1: a lawyer's perspective, the defense is doing a good job

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Speaker 1: because he has nothing else to go for, so all

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Speaker 1: he's trying to do is throw everything against the wall

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Speaker 1: because he doesn't have to prove anything. All he has

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Speaker 1: to do is poke holes into their proof. So that's

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Speaker 1: one of the things that I think a lot of

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Speaker 1: people may have a misconception of. When we say that

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Speaker 1: someone has the burden of proof. The only person that

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Speaker 1: has the burden of proof is the prosecutor, and his

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Speaker 1: burden of proof is beyond the reasonable doubt. So as

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Speaker 1: a defense attorney, the only thing I'm trying to do

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Speaker 1: is poke holes in his and his proof to show

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Speaker 1: the jury, hey, you might have some doubt. So that's

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Speaker 1: why it seems you know funny to people who are

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Speaker 1: watching it that he seems like he's just making up

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Speaker 1: anything he can. That's his job. And let's also address

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Speaker 1: because people also don't understand the instructions to the jury

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Speaker 1: when we say reasonable doubt. Because so let's break down

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Speaker 1: reasonable doubt is because reasonable doubt can be anything I

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Speaker 1: can say, oh, well, I doubt it. So explain what

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Speaker 1: that actually been, because reasonable basically means something that makes sense.

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Speaker 1: This doubts. So if you can explain that to folks

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Speaker 1: on what that means, well, there's a reasonable standard throughout

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Speaker 1: this case. So everybody needs to understand the reasonable standard.

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Speaker 1: The reasonable standard is not just a reasonable doubt is

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Speaker 1: not just okay, well you know maybe a car killed him,

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Speaker 1: or maybe the it's dost from the car killed him

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Speaker 1: while he was down here. Well, there's no evidence to

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Speaker 1: that in this trial, so that would not be a

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Speaker 1: reasonable doubt. That would be an unreasonable doubt. However, if

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Speaker 1: you say, well, maybe the drugs killed him. There's been

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Speaker 1: evidence that there is drugs in this case, so that

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Speaker 1: would that would be a possible reasonable doubt. And if

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Speaker 1: you look at it in the context of everything else

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Speaker 1: that is going on, so that is what um people

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Speaker 1: are saying. However, even I would say that that's not

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Speaker 1: a reasonable doubt here because the prosecution doesn't have to

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Speaker 1: prove that the knee on the back are the pressure

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Speaker 1: on the back was the only thing that killed. They

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Speaker 1: have to prove that it's it's substantially, Um, it was

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Speaker 1: a substantial factor in his death. Right, So kind of

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Speaker 1: like when just in Layman's term, So on the death certificate,

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Speaker 1: you can have I remember my my dad's death certificate,

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Speaker 1: you know, had two different reasons. It can be, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, what was the contributing factor and then what

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Speaker 1: was the actual cause of death? So the actual cause

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Speaker 1: of death can be the hard stop, but the contributing

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Speaker 1: factor could have been a seizure or lung cancer or

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Speaker 1: something that contributes, you know, to the actual death. So

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Speaker 1: in other words, we know that certainly drugs was involved.

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Speaker 1: Nobody's trying to as far as in the court of

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Speaker 1: public opinion, it's trying to escape that what we're saying

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Speaker 1: is that was not what contributed. Are you saying the

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Speaker 1: cause of death? What contributed substantially? Are the most is that?

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Speaker 1: So how do how does a a juror let's let's

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Speaker 1: look at how does a juror does side Okay, seventy

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Speaker 1: was because of this a thirty percent tell us how

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Speaker 1: a jury has to think through that on what was

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Speaker 1: the substantial calls. So we're watching all these details being

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Speaker 1: played out individually by different witnesses. At the end of this,

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Speaker 1: once the close of evidence is done, then each of

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Speaker 1: the attorneys will get to make water call closing arguments.

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Speaker 1: During closing arguments, the prosecution is going to say, you've

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Speaker 1: heard evidence of drug use, you've heard evidence of you know, uh,

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Speaker 1: possible overdose UM, and I believe they're gonna say he

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Speaker 1: had some sort of um delirious like hallucinations and stuff

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Speaker 1: that caused some sort of adrenaline rush in his body

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Speaker 1: that hasn't been put on its evidence, but he's um

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Speaker 1: the defense he has indicated that that's one of the

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Speaker 1: the causes that he's going to say cause the death

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Speaker 1: of George Floyd. Prosecution gonna say, okay, well you saw drugs.

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Speaker 1: You saw George Floyd minutes before he died, and he

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Speaker 1: was walking, he was talking, he was, you know, doing

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Speaker 1: all these things and once he went unconscious, he never

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Speaker 1: regained consciousness. And Derek Schowden once he went unconscious, He

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Speaker 1: was not a threat to Zarik Schauman. There was no

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Speaker 1: need for force anymore. Dereed soon continued to apply for us.

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Speaker 1: He did not render aid, he did not um, he

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Speaker 1: did not move George Floyd, he did not do any

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Speaker 1: of this stuff. And so they're going to They're gonna

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Speaker 1: bring on their expert that says that he died of

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Speaker 1: a cardiac arrest, which is lack of oxygen. So do

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Speaker 1: you think it's the time it starts the moment he

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Speaker 1: went unconscious or before, because I know they were going

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Speaker 1: pretty much frame by frame with a lot of the

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Speaker 1: witnesses this week, was saying at what point was he

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Speaker 1: not not resisting? And I know the witness, one of

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Speaker 1: the experts from l A, the l A expert witness

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Speaker 1: scestified to use of force. He went through frame by

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Speaker 1: frame and said, Okay, at this point, uh, he was

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Speaker 1: not resisting and that was before he was conscious. So

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Speaker 1: do you you're saying that you think it will be

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Speaker 1: at the moment that they will go for the safer

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Speaker 1: move to say, the moment he was unconscious, he did

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Speaker 1: not render aid and that's where the intent comes in.

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Speaker 1: Or I think they'll do it frame by frame just

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Speaker 1: like that. But I'm saying the clear point was when

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Speaker 1: he was unconscious and yet force was still being used

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Speaker 1: on him. At that point it becomes an assault, which

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Speaker 1: is what you need from murder too. And that's why

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Speaker 1: I wanted to talk about reasonableness with the police officer.

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Speaker 1: So all these actions are based on the reasonableness of

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Speaker 1: a police officer given the same information that Derek Chauvin had.

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Speaker 1: So it's not the reasonableness of a lay person because

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Speaker 1: obviously police officers have to use for sometime, and they're

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Speaker 1: allowed to use for you're not allowed to go and

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Speaker 1: just arrest someone and push them down and you know,

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Speaker 1: put handcuffs on him and do all that. But the

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Speaker 1: police officer can um get in in the proper circumstances.

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Speaker 1: So that's why reasonableness according to what a police officer

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Speaker 1: given the same information in the same situation would do.

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Speaker 1: They're going to say when I say they, the prosecution

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Speaker 1: is gonna say, you've heard police officer after police officer

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Speaker 1: after police officer come on this stand and testify that

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Speaker 1: they believed this was excessive for us, and this is

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Speaker 1: not what they would have done. They were not trained

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Speaker 1: to do this. I changed my mind. We definitely won't

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Speaker 1: just be thirty minutes because there's so many questions, you

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Speaker 1: know that I just want to break down line by line.

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Speaker 1: Let's go back a little bit when you talked about

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Speaker 1: what's reasonable for a police officer, and the reason why

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Speaker 1: I want to talk about that shortly quickly is because

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Speaker 1: you worked on a trade by Martin case. Now, when

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Speaker 1: we look at George Zimmerman, you know, when you just

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Speaker 1: made the comment about, you know, a police officer camp

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Speaker 1: run and tackle somebody down and handcuff, which is what

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Speaker 1: George Zimmerman did. He felt he had the right to

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Speaker 1: do what he did. So when you work that case,

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Speaker 1: he was able to say stay in your ground as reasonable.

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Speaker 1: So can you kind of explain if it's possible the

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Speaker 1: difference between how he was able to understand your ground

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Speaker 1: law to make that reasonable when you just said that

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Speaker 1: it's not reasonable for a everyday person to run down

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Speaker 1: and you don't fight crime. So well, let me let

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Speaker 1: me just say on George Floyd, the standard ground law

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Speaker 1: was he did not use it. Oh, that's right. He

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Speaker 1: mentioned it, he put it out in the in the

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Speaker 1: court of public opinion, but ultimately did not use it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: break that down because I totally forgot about that. That's

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Speaker 1: okay in George Floyd. The standard ground law in Florida

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Speaker 1: allows a defendant to have a hearing where the judge

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Speaker 1: can decide whether or not they use lawful force. The

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Speaker 1: reason they can have this hearing on that is so

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Speaker 1: that they don't have to pay for trial and go

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Speaker 1: through the hassle of a trial. So that's an option

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Speaker 1: that a defendant has when they're acute, when they're saying

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Speaker 1: that they were acting in self defense and flow or

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Speaker 1: that's what stand your ground says. Daniel Brown says that

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Speaker 1: if you're acting in self defense, you do not have

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Speaker 1: a duty to retreat. You can stand your ground. So

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Speaker 1: the law allows you to have a hearing on that.

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Speaker 1: And the reason they do it is so that people

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Speaker 1: don't have to spend money if they really were acting

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Speaker 1: in self defense. Doris Zimmerman opted not to have that hearing.

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Speaker 1: He opted not to have that hearing because he was

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Speaker 1: not gonna win that hearing. There was no um there.

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Speaker 1: There was. He did not have to stand your ground

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Speaker 1: argument there because he approached He approached Trayvon with a gun.

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Speaker 1: Trayvon had no idea that he was coming. If you

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Speaker 1: listen to the trial, Trayvon had gone between two houses

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Speaker 1: and thought he had gotten rid of George in it.

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Speaker 1: So in his mind, he's on the phone talking to

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Speaker 1: his friend. He doesn't know George Zimmerman is even coming.

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Speaker 1: George Zimmerman actually attacked him. So that is one of

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Speaker 1: the reasons that he did not believe that he and

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Speaker 1: his lawyer did not believe they would win a stand

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Speaker 1: your ground hearing. However, stand your ground was in the

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Speaker 1: jury instruction, which many people thought was a mistake that

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Speaker 1: was made by the prosecution to allow that and not

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Speaker 1: fight harder to get that out of the jury instruction.

432
00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:14,119
Speaker 1: Even so, self defense says that you can defend yourself

433
00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:17,840
Speaker 1: if you are being threatened with deadly force, and so

434
00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:20,800
Speaker 1: that's what George, George Zimmerman said that he was being

435
00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:25,320
Speaker 1: threatened by deadly force of Traylon Martin, and I don't

436
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:29,000
Speaker 1: ultimately they did you sustain your ground? You're just saying

437
00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:32,439
Speaker 1: he did not legally use that as a defense, But

438
00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:35,480
Speaker 1: because it wasn't the instructions, it's what basically got him

439
00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:38,280
Speaker 1: off right. Well, one of the jurors said that one

440
00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:41,200
Speaker 1: of the jurors. The juror that ended up giving terviews

441
00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:43,520
Speaker 1: on the standing, and she said that she believed that

442
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:47,040
Speaker 1: George Zimmerman was standing his ground. Now that's why many

443
00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:50,119
Speaker 1: people thought that that played played a part in his

444
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:54,840
Speaker 1: being vindicated. However, I personally don't think that. I think

445
00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:57,440
Speaker 1: that she had heard that somewhere and kind of headed

446
00:23:57,480 --> 00:23:59,399
Speaker 1: my made up before she came into court. That's just

447
00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:02,320
Speaker 1: my personal opinion. I don't know. I don't believe that

448
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:05,800
Speaker 1: there was any evidence to support that. I don't believe

449
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:09,520
Speaker 1: there was any evidence to um support George Zimmim and

450
00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:12,640
Speaker 1: being not found not guilty. However, just like in this

451
00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:16,960
Speaker 1: George Floyd case, if a jury comes back with not guilty,

452
00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:20,119
Speaker 1: there is it's over. There is no appeal, there is

453
00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:22,640
Speaker 1: no The only person that can appeal is if he's

454
00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:26,280
Speaker 1: found guilty, he could appeal, So prosecution will not have

455
00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:30,120
Speaker 1: a chance to appeal anything if he's found not guilty.

456
00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:32,760
Speaker 1: So jurors have a lot of latitude in these cases.

457
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:37,800
Speaker 1: And you know, depending this is where personalities come in

458
00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:40,919
Speaker 1: as opposed to evidence. Um, you have stealth jurors on

459
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:43,399
Speaker 1: a jury. Sometimes many people thought that juror in the

460
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:46,040
Speaker 1: Trademond Martin case was a stealth juror because she had

461
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:49,400
Speaker 1: written a book. That's right, Yeah, yeah, let's let's talk

462
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:52,439
Speaker 1: about that, because let's get into the jurors with the

463
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:54,800
Speaker 1: George Floyd case. Because I hear what you're saying as

464
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:57,280
Speaker 1: an attorney saying, no, there wasn't evidence for that, but

465
00:24:57,359 --> 00:24:59,879
Speaker 1: in the lay person's mind, because it was in the

466
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:02,720
Speaker 1: instructions and it gave her a way out, probably to

467
00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:06,400
Speaker 1: do what she already planned to do, we can say

468
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:10,679
Speaker 1: reasonably using that term, that it possibly might have affected

469
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:13,959
Speaker 1: her decision. You're saying, no, there was no evidence to it,

470
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:16,879
Speaker 1: which I agree, but it gave her and out because

471
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:21,120
Speaker 1: the prosecution made that mistake. And that's what the attorney

472
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:24,080
Speaker 1: Nelson is doing. He's trying to give jurors who wanted

473
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:27,359
Speaker 1: out and out by drugs, by the knee, is not

474
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:31,320
Speaker 1: really on his nakeds on his back, by all these

475
00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:34,159
Speaker 1: things that he's throwing against the wall. So that's what

476
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:36,600
Speaker 1: these are. These are, These are out that he's trying

477
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:38,200
Speaker 1: to get. The jury. Now, if you want to talk

478
00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:41,920
Speaker 1: about the jeury, the jury consists of right now, nine

479
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:45,720
Speaker 1: women and five men. There were fifteen jurors selected. One

480
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:49,000
Speaker 1: of them was dismissed as an alternate juror. There are

481
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:52,119
Speaker 1: twelve jurors in this case, so we have two alternates

482
00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:55,359
Speaker 1: that won't be in deliberation. They're gonna hear the whole case,

483
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:58,359
Speaker 1: but they won't be in deliberations. So, you know, we

484
00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:00,440
Speaker 1: don't I don't know who those two all too. Sorry

485
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:04,040
Speaker 1: the judge knows already, but so that the prosecution of defense,

486
00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:05,960
Speaker 1: I just don't know who they are. So when we

487
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:08,919
Speaker 1: talk about the jurors, you know, they classify six as

488
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 1: quote unquote minority. I have a concern with that because, uh,

489
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:17,160
Speaker 1: they I believe too, are classified as multi uh multi

490
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:19,480
Speaker 1: race or mount in the ethnic and I don't understand

491
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 1: what that means. I understand that it is totally okay too,

492
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 1: you know, claim both ancestries, you know, to have a

493
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:29,159
Speaker 1: an understanding of two different cultures. How do we know?

494
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:33,479
Speaker 1: You know that these multi racial jurists have the lens

495
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:35,320
Speaker 1: that we see. And I also wanna say, there's no

496
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:38,400
Speaker 1: uh because somebody's black. That means you see the things

497
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:40,639
Speaker 1: I do. You know, let's be clear about that. A

498
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 1: matter of fact, there is a one of the jurors

499
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:46,639
Speaker 1: that immigrated from Africa. Said he doesn't believe that police,

500
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:49,080
Speaker 1: you know, give black people a hard time. So this

501
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 1: is certainly not just saying because you have brown skin,

502
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:54,359
Speaker 1: you know that that we all agree. But what are

503
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:58,240
Speaker 1: your thoughts on jury makeup and how significant you know

504
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:00,520
Speaker 1: that that plays a role, and how do we really

505
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:02,720
Speaker 1: know what their background is, because to be honest with you,

506
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 1: that let you know, a lot of these white jurors

507
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 1: that said, oh, I never saw the table, I'm just

508
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:08,400
Speaker 1: totally clueless. I just don't believe that. I believe that

509
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 1: the twenty year old or the young guy that said

510
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:13,040
Speaker 1: he's never saw it. Most young people on social media

511
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:15,240
Speaker 1: is pretty much damn the impossible not to see it.

512
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:16,960
Speaker 1: He said he didn't see it in this entirety, but

513
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 1: you are familiar with it. I think that's one of

514
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 1: those jurors that, hey, I want to get on I

515
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:22,480
Speaker 1: want to be on the trial of the century, and

516
00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 1: I want to write a book. We've always talked about

517
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,439
Speaker 1: how black people need to be educated on how to

518
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:30,160
Speaker 1: be jurors. You know, when we come in, we're very

519
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 1: truthful and say, yeah, I'm biased. I don't like the police.

520
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:34,639
Speaker 1: I don't like you to think about the police. I

521
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 1: know that I couldn't be fair and so that gets

522
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:41,040
Speaker 1: us removed from the process. So can you talk about

523
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 1: a little bit about how important it is that we

524
00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:47,879
Speaker 1: serve injury duty and not run away from it because

525
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:50,720
Speaker 1: of our own personal uh, you know, choice and not

526
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:53,320
Speaker 1: understanding the responsibility you know that you have as a

527
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:55,720
Speaker 1: jury and how we need you know, more black people

528
00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:58,560
Speaker 1: to step up to that. So there's a whole industry

529
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:02,399
Speaker 1: called jury consult Him and they will tell you that,

530
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 1: you know, you have to look a lot deeper than

531
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 1: just someone's skin color or their age to find out

532
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:11,199
Speaker 1: what they really think and feel. That's why we have

533
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 1: something called ordaire where you're able to ask where the

534
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:18,439
Speaker 1: defense attorneys and the prosecutors before a trial on the

535
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:22,040
Speaker 1: state level are able to ask the jury questions to

536
00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:25,520
Speaker 1: try to find out if they're going to be fair jurors,

537
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 1: if they're not gonna be biased. So this is a

538
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:31,840
Speaker 1: this is the times in educating jurors in your audience,

539
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:34,760
Speaker 1: potential jurors, this is the time where you get to

540
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:37,920
Speaker 1: show I can listen to the evidence and I can

541
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:41,000
Speaker 1: be fair in this case. If you do not show that,

542
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:44,360
Speaker 1: you will not be picked toward jeury. So you must.

543
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:46,480
Speaker 1: Those are the key words if you want to be

544
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 1: on a juror jury, and if you really are and

545
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:53,520
Speaker 1: you can be fair, listen to the evidence and decide

546
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:56,479
Speaker 1: this case based on the evidence in trial. So I

547
00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 1: could have seen the video outside of trial, but the

548
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:03,160
Speaker 1: part requires me to only listen to the evidence that

549
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:07,760
Speaker 1: was presented in trial. Now, as you can imagine, Okay,

550
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 1: that's the that is the pure, you know, utopian legal world.

551
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:16,960
Speaker 1: And it don't happen, It don't go That's right. Everybody

552
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:20,480
Speaker 1: brings some type of level of bias, you know, because

553
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:22,480
Speaker 1: you're still human beings. But it's a matter of how

554
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:26,160
Speaker 1: we're answering the questions. And I think that's important. Guys.

555
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 1: We have to as attorneys, we have to like really

556
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 1: look at our questions and like really get into those

557
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 1: issues or whatever and try to you know, I I

558
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:36,560
Speaker 1: bring up race injury selection. A lot of people won't

559
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 1: do that. They say you shouldn't I bring it up.

560
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 1: I want to know who's getting agitated when we talk

561
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 1: about this. Who's thinking I'm just over you know, I'm

562
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 1: going being this civil rights attorney and they're sick of

563
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:51,600
Speaker 1: hearing me talk about it. I need to know that

564
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:53,880
Speaker 1: because if you're hearing me talk about it, then I

565
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 1: might think you have some thoughts about my type of

566
00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 1: cases because I do civil rights cases. So that being said,

567
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:05,280
Speaker 1: every demographic is different. This is one of the reasons

568
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 1: I would tell everyone who's maybe going to trial is

569
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:11,959
Speaker 1: to get someone who understands the demographic in your area.

570
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:15,040
Speaker 1: So it is my understanding that Minneapolis is a very

571
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 1: mixed race. There are a lot of mixed race couples

572
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:19,320
Speaker 1: in Minneapolis, so they have a lot of viraci with

573
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:23,480
Speaker 1: children in Minneapolis, So that's my understanding. That's not the

574
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 1: case so much where I live, So I would need

575
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:30,000
Speaker 1: someone who if I'm gonna do a case there, I

576
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 1: would be negligent in my job if I didn't talk

577
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 1: to someone who knew about the demographics specifically just in

578
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 1: that city, so that I will know what Jewels think

579
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 1: and what there makes up are. Obviously, if you're mixed race,

580
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:46,160
Speaker 1: you know, you might have some more liberal views about

581
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 1: black lives matter. Then if you grew up, you know,

582
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:53,720
Speaker 1: with nobody in a very conservative white household, so those

583
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:55,960
Speaker 1: are things that you If you grew up in Chicago,

584
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 1: you know where it's very segregated and south Side of

585
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 1: Chicago was black on black on black. You know, I

586
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 1: saw very few, you know, interracial couples opposed to live

587
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 1: in Orlando, where I saw a whole bunch, you know,

588
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:09,520
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of brothers with white women. So yeah,

589
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:12,800
Speaker 1: that the demographics matter, and and and knowing about not

590
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:15,320
Speaker 1: just the demographics, you want to know about the social

591
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:18,920
Speaker 1: social aspect of that community. You know, is it a

592
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,480
Speaker 1: poor community, is it? All these things matter when we're

593
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:26,760
Speaker 1: talking about just generalities. In jury selection, you want to

594
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 1: get someone who identifies with the person that you're trying

595
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:34,000
Speaker 1: to represent. So identity is very important. If I have

596
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 1: nothing else, if I know nothing else about someone, and

597
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,080
Speaker 1: I have a young black male on trial, my ideal

598
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:42,440
Speaker 1: juror is a young black juror a young black male,

599
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 1: you know, as a juror. So thats are my idea.

600
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 1: So that's just the basic bottom line of just identity. However,

601
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:53,280
Speaker 1: jury selection goes way further than identity and and and

602
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 1: you know, just to kind of go back to say,

603
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 1: I don't know why the article pointed out you know

604
00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 1: that the guy was from Africa, and I'm not against

605
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 1: and being you know, from another country, but it does

606
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 1: show that when you come from different places, your experience

607
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 1: might be different, you know, than the American experience if

608
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:12,239
Speaker 1: you come from a country that necessarily did not have

609
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:15,720
Speaker 1: to deal with the different levels of racism that we had.

610
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:18,800
Speaker 1: I think racism is everywhere, but your mindset on how

611
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 1: you view those things that have been passed down from

612
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:25,240
Speaker 1: generation after generation, you know, after generation with our grandparents

613
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:29,360
Speaker 1: and so forth. A lot of those ideas and pain

614
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:33,600
Speaker 1: and even resentment, you know, follows us throughout, you know,

615
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:36,840
Speaker 1: our lineage versus somebody else that maybe was black, but

616
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 1: maybe they're British, you know, maybe they maybe their last

617
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:42,840
Speaker 1: several generations didn't go through jim crow or sharecropping or

618
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:44,959
Speaker 1: you know. So so I found that to be interested.

619
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:47,239
Speaker 1: And I'm just bringing up because an article brought it up.

620
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:48,760
Speaker 1: So when they brought it up, I said, okay, they're

621
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 1: making this interesting point for a reason. So yeah, it

622
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:54,440
Speaker 1: is interesting, I think, and looking at this showing jury.

623
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:57,720
Speaker 1: Actually one of the things that's really interesting of a

624
00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:00,920
Speaker 1: person who got on the jury is a nerve, which

625
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:04,080
Speaker 1: I think is more important than than skin color here

626
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 1: because the whole case boils down to causation and it's

627
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:11,720
Speaker 1: a medical issue and they put a nurse on this jury,

628
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 1: Obviously she's gonna have a lot of sway with what

629
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 1: her fellow jurors think when she's talking. Normally, when you're

630
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:23,400
Speaker 1: doing a trial like this, you would not put someone

631
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:27,240
Speaker 1: who has medical experience, because one, you don't know which

632
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:29,480
Speaker 1: way they're leaning, and because she could go both ways,

633
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:31,920
Speaker 1: she could say it was the drugs or she could

634
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:35,520
Speaker 1: lean heavy into you should have rendered first aide. Depends

635
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:38,280
Speaker 1: on what kind of nurse, and she's an expert that's

636
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:40,680
Speaker 1: being put back there. And I actually think she was

637
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:44,800
Speaker 1: a cardiac nurse if I remember correctly, the worse and

638
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 1: I wonder why she how she made it on that jury. Now,

639
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:49,640
Speaker 1: one other thing that your listeners need to know is

640
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 1: that jury selection. You don't just get to pick who

641
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 1: you want on the jury. They bring in a group

642
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 1: of jurors and you have what I called preemptive challenges

643
00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:59,640
Speaker 1: and for cause challenges. Most of the time you have

644
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:01,920
Speaker 1: a limit it in a number of preempree challenges. Pre

645
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:04,840
Speaker 1: empty challenges are challenges where you can just qualify somebody

646
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 1: just because you want to, because they said something you

647
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 1: feel you don't like and they're not with the With

648
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:11,920
Speaker 1: the case of course you can't do it based on

649
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:15,840
Speaker 1: race or gender or anything that it would be discriminatory,

650
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:19,279
Speaker 1: but anything that they say. So at a certain point

651
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:22,239
Speaker 1: you run out of those. If you don't have any

652
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:26,120
Speaker 1: cause challenges, then the next jurors are on your jury,

653
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:27,640
Speaker 1: and you have no say whether or not they're on

654
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:30,320
Speaker 1: the jury. So you may have gotten on that way.

655
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 1: So it's really jury selection is a very complicated process. Um,

656
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:36,960
Speaker 1: it's not as simple as just you know, getting the

657
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 1: people that you want. Sometimes you have to compromise and

658
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:41,920
Speaker 1: you have to say, okay, well that person is not

659
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:46,279
Speaker 1: as bad that can eliminate this person. So I'll take

660
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:48,719
Speaker 1: this not as bad person so that I can eliminate

661
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:51,760
Speaker 1: this person. And because you only have a certain amount

662
00:34:51,800 --> 00:35:09,319
Speaker 1: of people that you can eliminate, Let's go into the

663
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:13,279
Speaker 1: charges and and what those charges mean. Why it was

664
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:17,800
Speaker 1: so important that Attorney Keith Ellison was able to charge

665
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 1: this defendant. And I tell people this, all of this matters.

666
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:23,719
Speaker 1: You know, who you elect for attorney general matters. When

667
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:25,759
Speaker 1: people say all policies doesn't matter, doesn't affect me, Oh

668
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:28,040
Speaker 1: yeah it does. Who was elected as your d A,

669
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:31,480
Speaker 1: who's elected as your attorney general? The police chief is

670
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:34,759
Speaker 1: normally a higher position, but the sheriff position is an

671
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:39,480
Speaker 1: elected position. All of these things we have an opportunity

672
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:41,440
Speaker 1: to participate. And I don't know if we'll have enough

673
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:43,440
Speaker 1: time to get into into the police chief, but I

674
00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 1: definitely want to have you back with that because it's

675
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:47,480
Speaker 1: not too many police chiefs that can sue of the

676
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:50,000
Speaker 1: department for racism and then come back and be promoted.

677
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:52,400
Speaker 1: And I want to talk about that. So where we

678
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:55,719
Speaker 1: are now, Let break down these charges, uh, and and

679
00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 1: why it was so important to throw everything in the

680
00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 1: toolbox for the jury, and and what each one means. Okay,

681
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:04,680
Speaker 1: So I want to talk about the murder three, which

682
00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:06,759
Speaker 1: is the third degree murder charge, because I think you've

683
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:10,760
Speaker 1: touched on that already. So the murder three charge says

684
00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:13,960
Speaker 1: that in order for the prosecution to prevail, they have

685
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:16,960
Speaker 1: to prove that Shaven caused the death of George Floyd

686
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 1: by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to George Floyd and

687
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:26,640
Speaker 1: evidenced by a depraved mind without regard for his human life.

688
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:30,920
Speaker 1: The reason that this is important is because this judge

689
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:35,120
Speaker 1: initially would not allow that charge to be brought, and

690
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:39,640
Speaker 1: this judge would not allow he dismissed this. This caused

691
00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 1: this charge because the statute says that Shaven had to

692
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:50,040
Speaker 1: have been have have an act imminent dangerous to others.

693
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:55,760
Speaker 1: The judge interpreted that as immediently dangerous to others besides

694
00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:59,160
Speaker 1: George Floyd, so others was not just one person. He

695
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:04,240
Speaker 1: interpreted that as imminent dangerous to other people, not George Floyd.

696
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:07,440
Speaker 1: This is why it's important to have the the attorney general,

697
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:11,960
Speaker 1: the Black Attorney General. He appealed that decision. They appealed

698
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:15,400
Speaker 1: the prosect well, the prosecution appealed that decision of the judge.

699
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 1: It went up on appeal. There had just been a

700
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:23,560
Speaker 1: case that addressed this very same issue, and the case

701
00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:26,800
Speaker 1: was it was actually the Philander Castile case that addressed

702
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:31,520
Speaker 1: this very same issue, and the appellate court said no

703
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:35,600
Speaker 1: others could be one person, It could be George Floyd.

704
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:38,080
Speaker 1: It didn't have to be two people or someone other

705
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:40,960
Speaker 1: than George Floyd. So that's how we're able to get

706
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:44,080
Speaker 1: the murder three charge. Initially it was just a second

707
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:48,399
Speaker 1: degree murder and manslaughter charge. So and the reason that

708
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:51,120
Speaker 1: that is important it gives the jewelry three bites at

709
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:54,080
Speaker 1: the apple now So I'll go down all the charges.

710
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:59,640
Speaker 1: So the highest charges, the second degree murder charge, the secondary,

711
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:03,279
Speaker 1: the re murder charge says that Chauvin caused the death

712
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:07,279
Speaker 1: of George Floyd while committing a felony. There doesn't have

713
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:10,319
Speaker 1: to be an intent to um that he intended to

714
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:14,239
Speaker 1: kill him. None of these charges seven intents, none, none

715
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:16,560
Speaker 1: are connected with intent, because we keep hearing a lot

716
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:19,279
Speaker 1: of that about intent, intent, intent, and none of them

717
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:21,640
Speaker 1: are connected to intent. Okay, right, he doesn't have to

718
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:25,080
Speaker 1: have meant killed George Floyd so on any of these

719
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 1: three charges. And that's important too, very important. So what

720
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:32,000
Speaker 1: that says this is this isn't called felony murder, So

721
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:34,680
Speaker 1: this is saying that in the commission of a felony,

722
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:39,279
Speaker 1: someone died at your hands. Basically, the reason that this

723
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:41,880
Speaker 1: is important is because all the juries on the jurors

724
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:44,239
Speaker 1: on the first week, they talked about whether or not

725
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 1: this was excessive force that Derek Chauvin did. And that's

726
00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:50,960
Speaker 1: why it was important that after George Floyd stopped resisting,

727
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:56,480
Speaker 1: Derek Chauvin continued to use force against him. That is

728
00:38:56,520 --> 00:39:00,400
Speaker 1: an assault, which is the felony. That is the felony. Okay,

729
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:04,080
Speaker 1: he fought against George Floyd. So now and that's why

730
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:07,200
Speaker 1: the not's interrupute. But that's why the prosecution is leaning

731
00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 1: in on how long he continued to have his knee

732
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:14,480
Speaker 1: on his neck after he stopped resisting, right because the

733
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 1: case law, the Supreme Court case of Connor v. Graham,

734
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:21,319
Speaker 1: which you've heard throughout this says that in measuring whether

735
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:24,800
Speaker 1: or not forces at sessive, you look at one the

736
00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:28,080
Speaker 1: initial crime, which here was a twenty dollar bill, a

737
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:29,880
Speaker 1: fake twenty dollar bill, which he could have given him

738
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:32,200
Speaker 1: a ticket for to come to court. You look at

739
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:34,640
Speaker 1: whether or not the person was resisting, and whether or

740
00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:37,440
Speaker 1: not the person was a danger to himself, I mean

741
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:41,160
Speaker 1: to others around them. So here what we clearly saw,

742
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:43,400
Speaker 1: and that's why it's important that he was not resisting,

743
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:47,319
Speaker 1: and that's why the clear line of him being unconscious

744
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 1: but for still being on him there should never there's

745
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:52,480
Speaker 1: no reason for force, and that was the testimony that

746
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:55,680
Speaker 1: there was no reason for force once he's unconscious. So

747
00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:58,200
Speaker 1: if you're using force on him now, you have gone

748
00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:01,839
Speaker 1: across the line and committed a crime at that point.

749
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:06,200
Speaker 1: And that goes up to how many years he can

750
00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:10,080
Speaker 1: get up for forty years for that for second degree okay,

751
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:12,880
Speaker 1: And then I read that the standard I believe was

752
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:17,680
Speaker 1: ten to fifteen. That stand so, and so people understand

753
00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:20,320
Speaker 1: that that even though you can go from here to forty,

754
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:24,440
Speaker 1: it's typically sentence based upon the standard for that state, correct,

755
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:28,080
Speaker 1: and based upon the defendant, because at the sentencing they're

756
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:30,320
Speaker 1: gonna look to see if he ever committed crimes before

757
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:33,520
Speaker 1: his people who will come and testify for him, so

758
00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:36,360
Speaker 1: that sentencing hearing normally here, he's a police officer, we

759
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:38,640
Speaker 1: know he doesn't have any criminal record. We know that

760
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:40,279
Speaker 1: he doesn't have that, so he would probably get the

761
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:42,839
Speaker 1: minimum sentence in this case, which you think maybe ten

762
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:46,160
Speaker 1: years on the second degree invicted on second degree murder.

763
00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:49,120
Speaker 1: And as a side, no, too bad it didn't work

764
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:51,320
Speaker 1: out like that with mandatory minimum for black folks. But

765
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:56,680
Speaker 1: we'll say that another time. You know, we got the

766
00:40:56,680 --> 00:40:59,319
Speaker 1: time period, didn't matter what you did before whatever. We'll

767
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:01,359
Speaker 1: say that in the so let's just say, you know,

768
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:08,400
Speaker 1: ten years felony, so that will be day by day, okay,

769
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:12,319
Speaker 1: So fifteen years what you'll end up doing about what? Um?

770
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:15,160
Speaker 1: I don't know how every state is different as far

771
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:17,719
Speaker 1: as their game time and what you know how much

772
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:20,680
Speaker 1: people will accumulate, so I can't tell you that, okay, Okay,

773
00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:23,920
Speaker 1: So the second degree, okay, so what's the next and

774
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:26,280
Speaker 1: let me ask you this. Can they stack these charges

775
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:29,200
Speaker 1: or doesn't have to be one or the other. No,

776
00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 1: it has to be one of the other, because second

777
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:37,600
Speaker 1: degree manslaughter is a negligence charge. So we'll we'll get

778
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:39,279
Speaker 1: to that. Let's go to the second one, which we

779
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:42,560
Speaker 1: already kind of talked about, third degree murder. So that's

780
00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:45,960
Speaker 1: saying that once again shaving cause of death. He doesn't

781
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:48,759
Speaker 1: have to be intent there has doesn't have to be

782
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:51,240
Speaker 1: an intend to cause cause of death. But he caused

783
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:55,400
Speaker 1: the death and he did it by perpetuating and act

784
00:41:55,680 --> 00:42:02,120
Speaker 1: eminently dangerous and evidencing a de pray mine saying that

785
00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:04,960
Speaker 1: he had no regard for human life. And that's the

786
00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:08,319
Speaker 1: easiest charge, that second degree. And would you say that's

787
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:12,879
Speaker 1: the easiest charge. I would say, no, man's man slater. Okay,

788
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:14,959
Speaker 1: So sick, I'm sorry, we're on second degree, okay, because

789
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:18,080
Speaker 1: I know manslaughter is also no regard for life, Okay,

790
00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:20,600
Speaker 1: so go ahead. So second degree okay, So once again,

791
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:22,800
Speaker 1: he had to have caused the death of George Floyd.

792
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:25,319
Speaker 1: Now he doesn't have to have committed a murder. I mean,

793
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:28,400
Speaker 1: he doesn't have to have committed a felony like you

794
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:31,759
Speaker 1: had to in second degree manslaughter. All he had. All

795
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:35,279
Speaker 1: they have to do is show that he didn't act

796
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:40,600
Speaker 1: that was dangerous and he did it because basically evil

797
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:44,040
Speaker 1: He got a depraved heart. Basically you didn't care for

798
00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:48,360
Speaker 1: human life. So they've got to show some evil intent there. Okay,

799
00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:50,440
Speaker 1: And this one is is this one of the maxims

800
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:53,520
Speaker 1: up to twenty five years? This is, yes, up to

801
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:56,520
Speaker 1: twenty five years. Okay, so my little homework is right, Okay,

802
00:42:56,560 --> 00:43:00,359
Speaker 1: got it, I got it. Okay. So so we got

803
00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:03,760
Speaker 1: second degree, which is the highest charge that is commit

804
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:06,720
Speaker 1: just to recap for the listeners, that is, with a felony,

805
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:08,720
Speaker 1: you have to prove that he did in a felony,

806
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:11,000
Speaker 1: which would be the assault, which means it would have

807
00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:14,480
Speaker 1: to be shown that he committed an assault, which is

808
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:17,560
Speaker 1: a felony, and that is what caused the death. Intent

809
00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:19,839
Speaker 1: does not matter on any of these And I keep

810
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:22,760
Speaker 1: reiterating that because there's been a lot of conversation about intent,

811
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:25,040
Speaker 1: and I think people think that one of these charges

812
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:27,880
Speaker 1: are connected to intent. And this is up to forty years,

813
00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:30,920
Speaker 1: but the state is usually anywhere from ten to fifteen,

814
00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:35,400
Speaker 1: and based upon his record, probably leaning towards ten. And

815
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:39,080
Speaker 1: then we have the second degree, no felony required, which

816
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:41,080
Speaker 1: makes it a a little bit easier. But all he needed

817
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:44,280
Speaker 1: to do was show he was dangerous and he basically,

818
00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:47,200
Speaker 1: you know, no intent again and just did it because hey,

819
00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:52,560
Speaker 1: he's just a bad person. That's probably George Floyd no

820
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:55,280
Speaker 1: regard to human life. And that is up to twenty

821
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:58,480
Speaker 1: five years. And do we know what the standard is

822
00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:01,759
Speaker 1: on that one? I read that it's probably twelve point

823
00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:04,080
Speaker 1: six years that they would get that he would get

824
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 1: on that. That's why I say for the second degree,

825
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:14,040
Speaker 1: probably fifteen. And that's when twelve point six okay, got it? Okay, okay, Yeah,

826
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:16,960
Speaker 1: So let me and one more thing about third degree murder.

827
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:19,000
Speaker 1: You keep it. This is where you will hear people

828
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:23,200
Speaker 1: say things like depraved heart, depraved mind. So you'll hear

829
00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:25,960
Speaker 1: that a commentators talking about that. That's what you have

830
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:30,480
Speaker 1: to evidence that the second degree on second the third

831
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:36,080
Speaker 1: three murder, third degree murder, we're going felopy, remember a felony,

832
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:38,520
Speaker 1: third degree, he had to have a depraved heart, so

833
00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:40,280
Speaker 1: we're going back to third degree. I know you started

834
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:42,719
Speaker 1: with third but just so the listeners understand, now we're

835
00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:45,879
Speaker 1: going back to third degree. Okay, so explained just third

836
00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:47,799
Speaker 1: degree again since we just went in order. I know

837
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:49,920
Speaker 1: you just plained it in the beginning, but okay, So

838
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:56,040
Speaker 1: third degree murder is Chauvin caused the death of George

839
00:44:56,080 --> 00:45:01,040
Speaker 1: Floyd by perpetuating act eminently danger is to George Floyd

840
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:07,200
Speaker 1: and evidencing a depraved mind without regards to human life. Okay,

841
00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:11,600
Speaker 1: So then the last one is second degree manslaughter. So

842
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:14,239
Speaker 1: this is the charge wherever Jory says, you know what,

843
00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:17,640
Speaker 1: I think it was an accident. I think that he

844
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:20,560
Speaker 1: didn't mean to do this. This is where they can

845
00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:24,200
Speaker 1: get him. So this says, Schouman caused George Floyd's death

846
00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:29,120
Speaker 1: by culpable nexgligence where he created an unreasonable risk and

847
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:32,160
Speaker 1: consciously took the chance of causing death a great by

848
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:38,080
Speaker 1: bodily harm. So this is where all those people might think, Okay, well,

849
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:41,239
Speaker 1: you know what, this is just an unfortunate accident. I'm

850
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:44,840
Speaker 1: like a drunk driving accident. Accident. Basically, like, he didn't

851
00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:48,799
Speaker 1: he caused the death, but he was. He didn't mean

852
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:51,120
Speaker 1: to because he was distracted by the crowd, as the

853
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:53,759
Speaker 1: defense want you to say, or he was you know,

854
00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:56,520
Speaker 1: he caused the death, but he didn't mean to because

855
00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:59,000
Speaker 1: he didn't know how long he was on the neck

856
00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:02,600
Speaker 1: because he was so you know, tonel focused or whatever.

857
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:04,400
Speaker 1: He caused the death, but he didn't think he was

858
00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:07,719
Speaker 1: gonna die because the ambulance was coming, you know, and

859
00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:09,319
Speaker 1: he thought that it was gonna So this is for

860
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:11,719
Speaker 1: those people so that they can't just say, okay, well

861
00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:15,400
Speaker 1: he's out, you know, not guilty. This charge says, okay, well,

862
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:18,200
Speaker 1: if you believe he caused the death, did he do

863
00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:23,160
Speaker 1: something that was unreasonable? You've heard officer after officers say

864
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:27,520
Speaker 1: that standing continuing to stay on his neck after he

865
00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:32,160
Speaker 1: was unconscious was unreasonable. That's right. And I know there's

866
00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:35,040
Speaker 1: been critics to say, oh, why did they why did

867
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:36,799
Speaker 1: they give him a man slat of charge? They're helping

868
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:39,800
Speaker 1: him get off. But the reality is, had Keith Ellison

869
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:43,000
Speaker 1: not given that as an option, there was nothing on

870
00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:46,640
Speaker 1: the table for that juror that that wants desperately to

871
00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:48,799
Speaker 1: get him off. This loops you in that you have

872
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:52,640
Speaker 1: to give him something correct before that juror says, you

873
00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:55,839
Speaker 1: know what, I just don't think many times when people

874
00:46:55,920 --> 00:46:58,040
Speaker 1: here murdered, they think there has to be some intent,

875
00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:02,040
Speaker 1: like you just said, there has to be some premeditation

876
00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:05,480
Speaker 1: or some intent to kill somebody. So this is what

877
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:07,400
Speaker 1: that was saying. Now, I just think that this was

878
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:11,480
Speaker 1: just an unfortunate tragic event. So this is the charge

879
00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:16,240
Speaker 1: for them, because you cannot create an unfortunate tragic event,

880
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:19,760
Speaker 1: which is what George, what Derek Chauvin did in this case.

881
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:23,200
Speaker 1: Up in my opinion, um, you know you can. I

882
00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:26,480
Speaker 1: I also, I actually believe they have enough for second

883
00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:30,640
Speaker 1: degree murder before before we skip to that, how many

884
00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:34,719
Speaker 1: years on the manslaughter up to ten years, so you

885
00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:40,120
Speaker 1: probably get three to four years. That's at the very least. Okay,

886
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:43,400
Speaker 1: you said you believe that it's enough for the highest charge.

887
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:46,160
Speaker 1: I would say from what I know, I don't think

888
00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:48,920
Speaker 1: that there's been enough evidence in the case yet to

889
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:51,480
Speaker 1: the jury. But from what I know about the medical

890
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:53,920
Speaker 1: examiner and what I know about the medical records, I

891
00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:56,279
Speaker 1: think there will be by the you know, by the

892
00:47:56,360 --> 00:47:58,520
Speaker 1: end of this case. From what you did have the

893
00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:02,040
Speaker 1: emergency doctor, he testified that there was no pulse. He

894
00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:07,080
Speaker 1: also testified that M. George Floyd died of cardiac arrest,

895
00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:09,440
Speaker 1: which was a lack of oxygen, and he felt it

896
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:13,960
Speaker 1: was most probable not because of you know, any He said, yes,

897
00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:18,720
Speaker 1: drugs can cause cardiac arrest, but probably not in this case.

898
00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:21,880
Speaker 1: You know. He was like, the most probable cause was

899
00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:25,239
Speaker 1: the lack of oxygen that George Floyd got, and he

900
00:48:25,239 --> 00:48:27,200
Speaker 1: didn't he wasn't allowed. I don't think he was allowed

901
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:30,360
Speaker 1: to give an opinion on whether or not what Chauvin

902
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:34,520
Speaker 1: did caused the lack of oxygen. But certain certainly the

903
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:37,799
Speaker 1: medical examiner will be able to and I'm guessing that

904
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:40,920
Speaker 1: they would have another doctor that's going to come and

905
00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:43,600
Speaker 1: talk about it too. Okay, so you believe that once

906
00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:45,920
Speaker 1: it's all setting done, the second degree, the highest charge,

907
00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:49,840
Speaker 1: which is committing a felony up to forty years possibly

908
00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:53,839
Speaker 1: would get ten to fifteen is definitely reasonable. But if not,

909
00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:57,640
Speaker 1: the next one would be yes, that's third degree murder.

910
00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:00,600
Speaker 1: So there's a second degree murder, a third re murder,

911
00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:04,480
Speaker 1: and a second degree manslaughter. I think that a jury

912
00:49:04,520 --> 00:49:08,840
Speaker 1: will be the deciding between second degree murder and second

913
00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:12,239
Speaker 1: degree manslaughter because I feel that if a jury can

914
00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:15,080
Speaker 1: get third degree murder, which is shown cause of death

915
00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:17,560
Speaker 1: of George Floyd. One caused the death of George Floyd

916
00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:22,759
Speaker 1: by perpetuating an imminent dangerous act to George Floyd and

917
00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:25,279
Speaker 1: evincing a depraved mind. I think if you get to

918
00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:30,600
Speaker 1: that right, because all the felony is is that he

919
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:35,400
Speaker 1: committed ex sensive force against George Floyd. But just in case,

920
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:39,279
Speaker 1: it's still there. And the reason we do that is

921
00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:41,719
Speaker 1: because as lawyers, and I know we're running out of time,

922
00:49:41,719 --> 00:49:43,560
Speaker 1: but I wanted playing this because it's really important. The

923
00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:46,600
Speaker 1: reason that we do that as lawyers in a trial,

924
00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:50,520
Speaker 1: we try to get as many um our prosecutors try

925
00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:54,040
Speaker 1: to get as many charges as they can because this

926
00:49:54,120 --> 00:49:57,440
Speaker 1: way jewelers can compromise. When they're talking. If you have

927
00:49:57,520 --> 00:50:00,799
Speaker 1: a jeweler who's adamant and there's he's one or two,

928
00:50:01,040 --> 00:50:05,040
Speaker 1: they're the adamant that that Chauvin did nothing, you know

929
00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:10,080
Speaker 1: or whatever. You have ten jurs saying he committed second

930
00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:13,600
Speaker 1: degree murder, they might say, okay, well would you compromise

931
00:50:13,719 --> 00:50:16,759
Speaker 1: the third degree or would you compromise to man? So

932
00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:21,320
Speaker 1: that's why we call that splitting the baby maybe because

933
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:25,480
Speaker 1: that's what jewels do if someone say, someone's adamant um

934
00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:28,400
Speaker 1: in this case. You know, if you ask me for

935
00:50:28,560 --> 00:50:33,120
Speaker 1: a guess on this case, I would guess that if

936
00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:36,319
Speaker 1: you have I would guess that it would be unanimous,

937
00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:40,839
Speaker 1: or the adamant person might well, I don't even want

938
00:50:40,840 --> 00:50:43,040
Speaker 1: to guess, but I would say what could happen? But

939
00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:46,839
Speaker 1: because that in this case, he could be convicted, he

940
00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:49,880
Speaker 1: can be acquitted, or there can be a hung jury.

941
00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:54,120
Speaker 1: Hung jury is a jury that cannot decide. If there's

942
00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:56,560
Speaker 1: a hung jury, what normally happens you have to retry

943
00:50:56,600 --> 00:51:00,480
Speaker 1: the case. Well, this is a great stopping point. Like

944
00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:02,600
Speaker 1: I said, I want to have you back. I wanted

945
00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:04,680
Speaker 1: to discuss so much in this hour, and we've already

946
00:51:04,680 --> 00:51:06,680
Speaker 1: went past that. But when you come back, we've covered

947
00:51:06,719 --> 00:51:09,480
Speaker 1: jury selection, we've covered what the charges are, and then

948
00:51:09,520 --> 00:51:11,520
Speaker 1: if we can have you come back to talk about

949
00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:13,720
Speaker 1: a number of things that I know people were concerned

950
00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:16,359
Speaker 1: about rule for OH four that you and I had

951
00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:20,719
Speaker 1: a discussion offline about, which is what his past misconduct

952
00:51:20,719 --> 00:51:23,440
Speaker 1: and how that will be admissible versus what will be admitted.

953
00:51:23,480 --> 00:51:25,640
Speaker 1: I definitely want you to talk about that. I also

954
00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:27,920
Speaker 1: want to talk about a lot of the things Uh,

955
00:51:27,920 --> 00:51:30,600
Speaker 1: the hypotheticals that they hear. A lot of people, you know,

956
00:51:30,640 --> 00:51:34,720
Speaker 1: don't understand why are so many hypotheticals being used instead

957
00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:37,200
Speaker 1: of the actual you know, what actually happens. So if

958
00:51:37,239 --> 00:51:39,319
Speaker 1: you can come back to explain that. I also want

959
00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:42,319
Speaker 1: to talk about, you know, these experts, what's considered an

960
00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:47,040
Speaker 1: expert witness versus not an expert witness. And uh, the

961
00:51:47,080 --> 00:51:50,680
Speaker 1: blue wall that was clearly shattered in some instances, but

962
00:51:50,719 --> 00:51:54,160
Speaker 1: we've seen this week where I believe the medical coordinators

963
00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:56,840
Speaker 1: trying her best to glue back that blue wall because

964
00:51:56,880 --> 00:51:58,600
Speaker 1: I don't know who she's working for the defense of

965
00:51:58,680 --> 00:52:03,799
Speaker 1: the prosecution, So that's important. But at first the chief

966
00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:05,799
Speaker 1: was like, hey, this is it. So if if you

967
00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:08,080
Speaker 1: can come back and talk about that, and then lastly

968
00:52:08,239 --> 00:52:11,839
Speaker 1: the bigger picture on what we can learn from this,

969
00:52:11,880 --> 00:52:14,000
Speaker 1: and that might be better to have once it's all over,

970
00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:16,120
Speaker 1: you know, so we can really look at all of that.

971
00:52:16,200 --> 00:52:17,719
Speaker 1: So maybe we can have you come back for a

972
00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:20,400
Speaker 1: part two and you know, possibly a part three to

973
00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:23,399
Speaker 1: wrap it all up, because your knowledge is so important. Um,

974
00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:26,320
Speaker 1: Attorney Jackson, I'm so helpful, you know, I'm so grateful

975
00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:28,840
Speaker 1: that you stop by because you just your wealth of

976
00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:31,640
Speaker 1: information and you explain in a way that people can understand.

977
00:52:31,719 --> 00:52:35,120
Speaker 1: And they need this because we're always about educating. Before

978
00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:37,200
Speaker 1: I get out of here, let people know where they

979
00:52:37,239 --> 00:52:41,239
Speaker 1: can follow you on Twitter, your website and you know Facebook,

980
00:52:41,239 --> 00:52:44,920
Speaker 1: because you're very active, you know, with uh participating with folks.

981
00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:47,680
Speaker 1: You get on Clubhouse to have these conversations. I mean,

982
00:52:47,719 --> 00:52:50,160
Speaker 1: you're very open to that. So if you can let

983
00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:53,160
Speaker 1: people know where to find you can't so on Twitter,

984
00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:56,719
Speaker 1: I'm Nat jack tweets and a t J a c

985
00:52:56,920 --> 00:53:02,719
Speaker 1: K tweets. On Facebook, I'm Natalie Jackson. My website is

986
00:53:02,880 --> 00:53:07,799
Speaker 1: www dot Natalie Jackson Law dot com. Um, I am

987
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:11,480
Speaker 1: on Clubhouse sometimes, but you'll just have to catch me

988
00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:13,960
Speaker 1: when I'm on there. Yeah. Well, in the meantime, you

989
00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:15,960
Speaker 1: guys can find a turning out that she's been on

990
00:53:16,040 --> 00:53:21,040
Speaker 1: CNN lately, MSNBC, core TV, I mean just making the

991
00:53:21,120 --> 00:53:23,319
Speaker 1: rounds Roland Martin shows. She's just been all over the

992
00:53:23,320 --> 00:53:30,080
Speaker 1: place because the shot now chase the one that really matters,

993
00:53:30,120 --> 00:53:34,040
Speaker 1: not that it's a competition, but but I love my

994
00:53:34,160 --> 00:53:37,759
Speaker 1: girl chest And let me say again, you don't just

995
00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:39,759
Speaker 1: say that what words you said in action and there's

996
00:53:39,880 --> 00:53:41,879
Speaker 1: very few people you know that I've met in life

997
00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:44,360
Speaker 1: that does that. So I am so eternally grateful for

998
00:53:44,360 --> 00:53:46,480
Speaker 1: you and all of the information that you have shared

999
00:53:46,960 --> 00:53:49,239
Speaker 1: with us today, and we will have you back for

1000
00:53:49,360 --> 00:53:51,560
Speaker 1: part two, you know, to the finish discussing this. I

1001
00:53:51,600 --> 00:53:53,680
Speaker 1: think this is worth you know, having this discussion as

1002
00:53:53,719 --> 00:53:56,719
Speaker 1: this trial goes on. Um, you know, to to give

1003
00:53:56,760 --> 00:53:59,160
Speaker 1: an opportunity so people can really learn. So guys, make

1004
00:53:59,160 --> 00:54:03,040
Speaker 1: sure you check in again or next week or whenever

1005
00:54:03,040 --> 00:54:04,799
Speaker 1: I can get a turning Antali Jackson back on, just

1006
00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:06,920
Speaker 1: to know that there will be a part two. We're

1007
00:54:06,960 --> 00:54:08,520
Speaker 1: looking for this case to wrap up at the end

1008
00:54:08,560 --> 00:54:10,200
Speaker 1: of the month. They said we should have a verdict

1009
00:54:10,239 --> 00:54:12,920
Speaker 1: at the last week of April if everything goes the

1010
00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:15,759
Speaker 1: way that it should. So look again for turning at

1011
00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:18,480
Speaker 1: the Jackson so we can continue to have this dialogue.

1012
00:54:18,560 --> 00:54:21,200
Speaker 1: And if there is an episode that is worth sharing,

1013
00:54:21,280 --> 00:54:24,040
Speaker 1: it is really this one. It is so hard getting

1014
00:54:24,080 --> 00:54:27,879
Speaker 1: out information to the masses, So please get this information out,

1015
00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:31,280
Speaker 1: share it, make sure folks understand and send me your questions.

1016
00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:35,560
Speaker 1: You can certainly always inbox me on Instagram a teslaent

1017
00:54:35,560 --> 00:54:37,600
Speaker 1: Figuro to let me know if there's something that I'm

1018
00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:40,319
Speaker 1: missing um that I can go on and more than

1019
00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:42,640
Speaker 1: likely Natalie, I also mentioned this to you. I would

1020
00:54:42,640 --> 00:54:44,400
Speaker 1: love for you to come on my Instagram Live, you know,

1021
00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:47,719
Speaker 1: because a lot of times everybody may not catch the podcast,

1022
00:54:48,080 --> 00:54:50,040
Speaker 1: and so let's set that up to so look for

1023
00:54:50,280 --> 00:54:53,840
Speaker 1: that alert with Natalie and I on Instagram Live so

1024
00:54:53,920 --> 00:54:56,839
Speaker 1: we can continue to give you, guys, this education, this

1025
00:54:56,960 --> 00:55:00,239
Speaker 1: free game that is so impactful not only to us

1026
00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:02,480
Speaker 1: as a culture, as a movement, as black people, but

1027
00:55:02,640 --> 00:55:05,279
Speaker 1: could very well be impactful to you if something were

1028
00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:07,680
Speaker 1: to ever happen to you or your family. God forbid.

1029
00:55:07,960 --> 00:55:10,360
Speaker 1: All right, guys, thank you so much. Tune in next week.

1030
00:55:10,480 --> 00:55:13,080
Speaker 1: This is Tesla Figure Straight Shot No Chase. If you

1031
00:55:13,360 --> 00:55:15,640
Speaker 1: like what you heard on straight Shot No Chaser, please

1032
00:55:15,680 --> 00:55:18,680
Speaker 1: subscribe and dropify, star review and tell a friend. Straight

1033
00:55:18,719 --> 00:55:21,000
Speaker 1: Shot No Chaser is a production of the Black Effect

1034
00:55:21,040 --> 00:55:24,080
Speaker 1: podcast networking I Heart Radio on Tesse Figure, and I'd

1035
00:55:24,120 --> 00:55:27,319
Speaker 1: like to thank our producer editor mixer, the one and

1036
00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:30,920
Speaker 1: only Marcy Dupina, are mixed Master Dwayne Crawford, and our

1037
00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:34,120
Speaker 1: executive producer, Charlemagne the God. For more podcast from I

1038
00:55:34,280 --> 00:55:37,760
Speaker 1: Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast

1039
00:55:38,040 --> 00:55:39,640
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts,