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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ethan Edelman, and this is Psychoactive, a production

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Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the

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Speaker 1: show where we talk about all things drugs. But any

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Speaker 1: of views expressed here do not represent those of I

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Speaker 1: Heart Media, Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed,

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Speaker 1: as an inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they may

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Speaker 1: not even represent my own. And nothing contained in this

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Speaker 1: show should be used his medical advice or encouragement to

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Speaker 1: use any type of drug. Hello, Psychoactive listeners. Today, I'm

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Speaker 1: talking with a fellow I've known for quite a number

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Speaker 1: of years. His name is Adam Strauss, and he is

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Speaker 1: a actor and a stand up comic, and he has

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Speaker 1: this show that he's put on called The Mushroom Cure,

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Speaker 1: which I've seen. I saw it a few years ago.

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Speaker 1: It's an amazing show about basically trying to treat his

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Speaker 1: own o c D obsessive compulsive disorder with psychedelics, in

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Speaker 1: particular psilocybic mushrooms. Now, I mean this show isn't just

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Speaker 1: some little thing. I mean, I mean Adam has performed

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Speaker 1: this show in the United Kingdom and in the US.

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Speaker 1: It's gotten played at festivals, It's played in Edinburgh, has

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Speaker 1: played off Broadway in New York, it's played at the

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Speaker 1: Marsh Theater in Berkeley. It's gotten fantastic reviews across the board.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's been called a miracle of a show

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Speaker 1: and a must see, a hilarious rithe rose c D,

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Speaker 1: a fabulous, perceptive trip, usually intelligent, outstanding revelation. And Adam

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Speaker 1: has been described as an extremely talented comedian and tour

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Speaker 1: to force. So it's just a real pleasure, Adam to

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Speaker 1: have you on Psychoactive. Thanks for having me Ethan, and

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Speaker 1: thanks for that intro. I feel like we should end

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Speaker 1: the podcast right now because I'm not gonna be able

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Speaker 1: to top that. I should just quote on a high note,

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Speaker 1: no pun intended. Thanks thanks for having me on this

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Speaker 1: on your podcast. I've always enjoyed our unrecorded talk, so

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Speaker 1: looking forward to this one as well. Yeah. Well, and

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Speaker 1: I should actually just say to the audience, there's this

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Speaker 1: recording that plays before each show that says, you know

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Speaker 1: nothing you hear should be taken to be encouraging to

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Speaker 1: use drugs, and you know here because we're gonna be

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Speaker 1: talking about drugs and mental illness and comedy. I just

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Speaker 1: want to apologize to some listeners in advance if we

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Speaker 1: sound irreverence, either Adam or me, because I'll get into

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Speaker 1: the comedic mode with him. Perhaps. Um, it's not meant

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Speaker 1: to be disrespectful, it's not meant to be insensitive. So

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Speaker 1: but it is meant to hopefully shed light on O

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Speaker 1: c D and the potential of psychedelics and also to

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Speaker 1: really learn about Adams story here. So please forgive both

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Speaker 1: him and me if something hits you wrong. But I

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Speaker 1: do want to start off by offering, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: have you ever had that issue where people got upset

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Speaker 1: by what you were doing, um with your comedy and

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Speaker 1: O c D. You know, I would say not people

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Speaker 1: who have actually seen the show, but I but there

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Speaker 1: have been there has sometimes been pushed back in general,

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Speaker 1: I would say more from the people who feel that

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Speaker 1: psychedelics have a special, uh reverential place in the in

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Speaker 1: the pharmacopeia, which I don't actually disagree with. I do

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Speaker 1: feel like they're unique compounds and and have a unique role,

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Speaker 1: and that the idea of of bringing humor to them

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Speaker 1: is in some way inherently disrespectful. But yeah, that's something

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Speaker 1: I pushed back strongly on, partially because I think, well,

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Speaker 1: my own psychedelic experiences, humor and laughter is such a

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Speaker 1: central part of them, even just to be very specific,

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Speaker 1: I mean the way I've laughed mushrooms particularly, and and

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Speaker 1: Sasha Shulgin talks about INTI called this trip to mean laugh.

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Speaker 1: It does seem to be a fairly intimate um and

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Speaker 1: I think personally a non trivial connection between psychedelic and laughter.

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Speaker 1: To me, one of the one of the many powerful

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Speaker 1: things about laughter is there something humbling about it. When

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Speaker 1: you're laughing, you're basically there's an element of surprise, something

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Speaker 1: you didn't see coming. And I don't think it's too

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Speaker 1: far a reach to say that there is. In the

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Speaker 1: best jokes, there's sort of a mind expanding element where

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Speaker 1: you see a possibility or a connection that you didn't

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Speaker 1: previously see. And it's that that snap moment of recognition

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Speaker 1: and connection that elicits the laugh. And that to me

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Speaker 1: also describes a lot of the psychedelic experiences, is that

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Speaker 1: you know, with a joke, you have all the components

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Speaker 1: there right, You're not necessarily being exposed to anything totally

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Speaker 1: novel in terms of I'm trying to think of a

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Speaker 1: classic joke, you know, a joke, let's say, a cliche

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Speaker 1: joke about you know, airplane food sucking. So you you

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Speaker 1: know the concept of airplanes, you know the concept of food,

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Speaker 1: but somehow it's presented in a way where you're seeing

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Speaker 1: something new that you hadn't seen before. And so much

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Speaker 1: of the psychedel experience for me is often that it's okay,

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Speaker 1: I had all the pieces, but they're coming together in

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Speaker 1: a way that I had never seen before, and that

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Speaker 1: can be revelatory. And I think there can be a

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Speaker 1: small revelation in a joke, in a punchline before we

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Speaker 1: get into you know, how you conceive the play and

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Speaker 1: how it's evolved. I'm curious instorms of your own personal life.

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Speaker 1: I mean, at what age do you do your parents

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Speaker 1: realize that you have this condition, and what was it

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Speaker 1: like either growing up with it or whatever age it

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Speaker 1: really became a you know, significant issue in your life.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting because it seems like people with O c

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Speaker 1: D fall into one of two camps. Some people will say, yep,

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Speaker 1: I've had this from my early memories. I was born

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Speaker 1: with O c D. But for many people there are

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Speaker 1: clear precursors, meaning anxiety, often perfectionism, things like that that

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Speaker 1: were problematic for them, but they didn't develop clear cut

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Speaker 1: O c D until they had a specific inciting incident,

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Speaker 1: a trauma essentially, And I fell into that ladder camp.

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Speaker 1: I was from a very very early age. You know,

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Speaker 1: a lot of really really intense emotional volatility. I would

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Speaker 1: get into these huge fights with my mom. I my

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Speaker 1: emotions were out of control and I didn't know how

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Speaker 1: to control them. And I saw therapist from an early age,

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Speaker 1: and to me, one of the great shortcomings of traditional

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Speaker 1: Western psychotherapy is it's really a mind game. It's a

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Speaker 1: brain trying to help another brain, by which I mean

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Speaker 1: I would see these therapists from an early age and

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Speaker 1: they would would discuss, you know, why would I get

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Speaker 1: so upset, Why would I get so angry? Why would

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Speaker 1: I get so out of control? And I would think

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Speaker 1: about it and I would talk about it. No one

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Speaker 1: ever actually told me, you know, what's going on in

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Speaker 1: your body, what's happening at a at a visceral level.

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Speaker 1: When a therapist would ask me how I was feeling,

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Speaker 1: I would think about it. I wouldn't actually tune in

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Speaker 1: to my physical sensations, and that's where psychedelics are instrumental.

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Speaker 1: But I don't want to get too far ahead of

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Speaker 1: my story. So yeah, really really intense UM just overpowering anxiety,

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Speaker 1: fear a lot of the time for a very early age,

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Speaker 1: no obvious reason, no obvious trauma. Grew up in a loving,

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Speaker 1: supportive household, but that was just there from the beginning,

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Speaker 1: and and really I didn't have any tools um to

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Speaker 1: to work with it. And so it was it defined

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Speaker 1: my life in a lot of ways, just this this

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Speaker 1: sort of omni present, not quite on the present it was.

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Speaker 1: I wasn't always anxious, but a lot of the time

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Speaker 1: there was yet just this overpowering fear, and nothing really helped.

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Speaker 1: Just to give a sense of the the scope of

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Speaker 1: my challenges, I was hospitalized twice, both at age eighteen.

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Speaker 1: That was when I had UM. My first girlfriend dumped me,

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Speaker 1: and you know, I was admitted to the hospital ostensibly

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Speaker 1: for suicidality, but I wasn't suicidal. I just couldn't handle

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Speaker 1: how I was feeling, and I didn't know what to do.

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Speaker 1: I just couldn't almost literally, I couldn't be in my

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Speaker 1: own skin. It was just too agonizing and and we're

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Speaker 1: you getting all sorts of diagnoses and being prescribed al

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Speaker 1: storts of pharmaceuticals as an adolescent. So I'm forty seven,

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Speaker 1: so you know, the advent of prozac. I think that

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Speaker 1: came out in night. I feel like if I was

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Speaker 1: ten years younger, I probably would have been prescribed a

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Speaker 1: lot of these psychotropic medications, but it wasn't particularly common.

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Speaker 1: Having said that I was, I was prescribed some at ages.

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Speaker 1: I think fifteen or sixteen, I was prescribed antidepressant to

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Speaker 1: try cyclic antidepressant I don't remember the name, but one

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Speaker 1: of the earlier antidepressants before S. S. R. Eyes. And

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Speaker 1: then at eighteen I was prescribed prozac. Um was on

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Speaker 1: it for about a month and had a bad reaction

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Speaker 1: and got off. And then beginning at nineteen or so,

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Speaker 1: I was on Paxel and that began my my long

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Speaker 1: term relationship with S. S. R. Eyes. But staying with

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Speaker 1: the timeline, so diagnoses, you know, generally the diag gnosis

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Speaker 1: was depression, but that was just sort of a catch

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Speaker 1: all diagnosis. One of the challenges with o c D

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Speaker 1: is even among therapists UM it's often misdiagnosed or underdiagnosed

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Speaker 1: because certainly some people with those c D have the

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Speaker 1: classic you know, contamination fear, handwashing or checking the stove,

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Speaker 1: and I think most therapists will catch that. But there's

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Speaker 1: so many different forms O c D can assume because

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Speaker 1: at its root, O c D is basically a strategy,

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Speaker 1: I would say, unconscious strategy, but a strategy to eliminate

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Speaker 1: uncertainty because uncertainty makes us anxious, and that can assume

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Speaker 1: so many different forms. So probably the the most appropriate

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Speaker 1: diagnosis when I was growing up would have been something

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Speaker 1: like generalized anxiety disorder. But what the fund does that mean?

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's a lot of these diagnoses. I've had

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Speaker 1: a lot of critiques of the sort of the Western

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Speaker 1: psychotherapeutic model, and one of them is this idea that

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Speaker 1: there is these discrete diagnostic categories that have like real

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Speaker 1: predictive or or therapeutic value, and I just I think

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Speaker 1: in many cases that's not true. So so yeah, short

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Speaker 1: short answer, capsule answer was, I was diagnosed with depression,

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Speaker 1: but I certainly was not depressed. For me, it was

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Speaker 1: really about fear, just this deep fear and uh yeah,

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Speaker 1: and the s R I started at age eighteen. By

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Speaker 1: nineteen I was on Paxxel, and I was on pack

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Speaker 1: Sel for many years. Then I switched over to Lexa

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Speaker 1: pro Um, and I tried a number of other S s

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Speaker 1: s R I S. I want to be careful here.

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Speaker 1: The data on S s r I S is certainly

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Speaker 1: for some people they are very, very helpful, and I

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Speaker 1: always tell people if S s r I S are

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Speaker 1: working for you, use them. But for many people with

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Speaker 1: O c D, the best data and there's not great

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Speaker 1: data because there's no real incentive for pharmaceutical companies to

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Speaker 1: do long term studies of S s s r I S.

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Speaker 1: You just need to do an eight week trial to

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Speaker 1: get FDA approval. Multiple a week trials, But the point is,

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Speaker 1: you know, there's no there's no financial benefit for people

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Speaker 1: to do long term studies financed by the drug. So

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Speaker 1: there haven't been that many, but the ones that there

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Speaker 1: have been. Some public health studies show that in general,

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Speaker 1: about half of people with O c D just don't

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Speaker 1: respond to S s r S, and the half who

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Speaker 1: do respond typically see only about a reduction and symptoms.

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Speaker 1: So for the vast majority of people with O c D,

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Speaker 1: S s r I don't work, or they give at

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Speaker 1: best a moderate degree of relief, and that was that

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Speaker 1: was my story. You know, maybe they helped a little bit,

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Speaker 1: lowering some anxiety, but I was still sick in a word,

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Speaker 1: and getting sicker. And that is also characteristic of o

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Speaker 1: c D, as it does tend to be a progressive

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Speaker 1: condition in the sense of um well, they put it

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Speaker 1: this way. I've never met someone with o c D

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Speaker 1: who has had a spontaneous remission, with the exception of it.

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Speaker 1: Seems like sometimes children with o c D they kind

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Speaker 1: of just grow out of it. But I've never met

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Speaker 1: an adult who said, yeah, you know, I had bad

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Speaker 1: o c D and then it just kind of got better.

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Speaker 1: On the contrary, everyone i've met, if you're not treating it,

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Speaker 1: if you're not working with it, um And I used

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Speaker 1: that that was a preposition with intentionally working with because

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Speaker 1: I think we can get into this. A lot of

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Speaker 1: my path towards freedom has been not trying to fight

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Speaker 1: the o c D, not trying to beat the o

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Speaker 1: c D, but working with it. But if you're not,

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Speaker 1: if you're not doing things actively to address the o

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Speaker 1: c D, it I think pretty much invariably will just

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Speaker 1: take up more and more of your life. And that

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Speaker 1: was that was my story even though I was doing things,

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Speaker 1: I was on SS rise, I was in therapy, but

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Speaker 1: it just wasn't UM wasn't that effective. And and sorry,

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Speaker 1: I I want to clarify just one thing I mentioned.

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Speaker 1: So I still wouldn't have said I had O c D,

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Speaker 1: you know, in my twenties, but the general anxiety was

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Speaker 1: getting worse and worse. And then the O c D

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Speaker 1: came about when I had UM. Well, in a word, heartbreak,

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Speaker 1: maybe that's two words, I'm not sure, but the most

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Speaker 1: significant romantic relationship of my life ended. And I actually

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Speaker 1: didn't make this connection UM until I started doing the

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Speaker 1: show The Mushroom Cure and kind of started writing about it.

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Speaker 1: But in hindsight, it's very clear this relationship ended. And

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Speaker 1: the simplest way I could put it is there was

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Speaker 1: this profound heartbreak. There was this profound loss, but I

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Speaker 1: wasn't able or willing to feel that loss in my body.

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Speaker 1: I wasn't again, I didn't have the tools to really

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Speaker 1: feel those feelings. And so what I did is I

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Speaker 1: really left my body entirely. I went entirely into my head.

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Speaker 1: I was already very much in my head, but now

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Speaker 1: in the aftermath of this loss of this relationship. I

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Speaker 1: really really just just went entirely into my head and

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Speaker 1: developed this strategy in a sense of logical, but ultimately

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Speaker 1: i'd say literally insane strategy, which is, well, if I

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Speaker 1: can figure everything out in my head, if I can

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Speaker 1: get everything right, if I can always get the right answer,

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Speaker 1: that my life will be good and I won't have

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Speaker 1: to feel these feelings again. I wasn't totally conscious of this,

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Speaker 1: but that's that's the way it uh came out. And

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Speaker 1: it sounds it sounds like you're describing is as you're

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Speaker 1: living with this generalized anxiety, depression, heartbreak, and then it

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Speaker 1: all sort of kind of blossoms or transforms or starts

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Speaker 1: to manifests o c D. And I'm wondering when it

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Speaker 1: does manifests o c D do some of the other

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Speaker 1: symptoms you had before, like, for example, depression or anxiety,

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Speaker 1: do those subside a bit and get replaced by the

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Speaker 1: O c D or do they all just become a

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Speaker 1: great big jumble. How does it all kind of fit

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Speaker 1: or not fit together or interact? Or is there was

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Speaker 1: there any silver lining in O c D V city

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Speaker 1: the experiences you have suffered from before. So I wouldn't

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Speaker 1: say I was ever depressed. Um. I think of depression

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Speaker 1: as kind of this you know, retreat, drawn into oneself,

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Speaker 1: you know, not wanting to get out of bed. And

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Speaker 1: I had some symptoms secondary to the anxiety. When the

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Speaker 1: anxiety was really bad, sure I wouldn't want to get

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Speaker 1: out of bed, but I'd never say I was truly depressed.

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Speaker 1: Knowing people who really do suffer from clinical depression, it's um,

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Speaker 1: it's I think a pretty distinct condition. But the anxiety

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Speaker 1: that really got wrapped up in the O c D,

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Speaker 1: and in fact, well O c D is considered an

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Speaker 1: anxiety disorder, and I think that's apt in I look

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Speaker 1: at O c D at in one sense, as an

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Speaker 1: attempt to eliminate anxiety that works in the very very

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Speaker 1: very very short term. So let's take the example of

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Speaker 1: someone who has contamination fear. They're afraid that they're going

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Speaker 1: to get AIDS because they touched a subway poll and

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Speaker 1: they know logically it's not going to happen, but that

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Speaker 1: fear is there, and so they wash their hands for

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Speaker 1: the forty time and they feel a little bit of relief,

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Speaker 1: maybe for ten seconds twenty seconds. Their anxiety goes down

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Speaker 1: for a little bit, but then it comes back, so

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Speaker 1: logically they'll do the thing that gave them relief. The

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Speaker 1: last time they'll watch, they'll wash again. So there is

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Speaker 1: a payoff sometimes with engaging in O c D, but

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Speaker 1: it's very short lived, and it actually ultimately increases anxiety

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Speaker 1: because the harder you try to eliminate this perceived threat,

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Speaker 1: this fear that you're contaminated. And I don't have that form,

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Speaker 1: but to use this example, two things happen. One, you're

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Speaker 1: giving that threat that fear more and more energy, more

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Speaker 1: and more attention, so it's getting bigger and bigger. The

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Speaker 1: second thing, though, that happens is you're actually adding a

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Speaker 1: second source of anxiety, which is real, uh, grounded in

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Speaker 1: real life, which is all right, you've spent four hours

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Speaker 1: in the bathroom washing your hands. Well, guess what now

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Speaker 1: you're you might get fired from your job because you're

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Speaker 1: not doing your job, or you know, your spouse may

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Speaker 1: leave you because they can't handle this anymore. So now

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Speaker 1: there's real things happening in the world as a result

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Speaker 1: of you trying to eliminate this fear that are actually

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Speaker 1: creating more fear. And this is the really cruel vicious

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Speaker 1: cycle of O c D. Well, what are you gonna do? Now?

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Speaker 1: You're gonna do the thing that sometimes makes you feel

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Speaker 1: a little bit better, even if it's only for fifteen

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Speaker 1: or twenty seconds. You're gonna keep washing. And that kind

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Speaker 1: of comes back to why I would say O c

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Speaker 1: D tends to be a progressive condition that gets worse

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Speaker 1: because the more you do O c D, the harder

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Speaker 1: it is to stop. And so for me, the anxiety

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Speaker 1: was sort of this initially the fuel for O c D.

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Speaker 1: But it's sort of like this perpetual motion machine where

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Speaker 1: the more fuel you give it, the more it creates

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Speaker 1: further fuel for O c D. So it just it

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Speaker 1: ramped up the anxiety and yeah, the news just tightened.

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Speaker 1: So so step into parallel track. Now, so this is

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Speaker 1: about living with O c D. But you at the

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Speaker 1: same time you are living, I mean, you're having a life.

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Speaker 1: I presume you're going to school, you're going to college,

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Speaker 1: you're getting a job, maybe you're deciding to that, maybe

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Speaker 1: you're gonna go into comedy. What's that part of your life? Like,

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Speaker 1: I mean, not not to make them two separate tracks,

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Speaker 1: but the other parts of your life, And how's that going, Yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: actually I like looking at as two tracks because that's

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Speaker 1: what it felt for me. So I did have sort

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Speaker 1: of this O c D track which was really the

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Speaker 1: dominant story of my life. But then increasingly UM difficult,

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Speaker 1: but I was trying to maintain outward appearances and it

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Speaker 1: was challenging. So yeah, I was, you know, as the

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Speaker 1: O c D was really flourishing. After this relationship ended,

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Speaker 1: I was UM. I was a founder of a company,

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Speaker 1: a startup, which in a way enabled the O c

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Speaker 1: D because I wasn't reporting to anyone else, so I

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Speaker 1: could indulge my o c D in a way that

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Speaker 1: I couldn't have if I had to report too, if

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Speaker 1: I had a boss or something like that, like I could.

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Speaker 1: I was going into work every day, but when I

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Speaker 1: was at my computer, you know, there were days where

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Speaker 1: I was just I was just obsessing, obsessing, obsessing and

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Speaker 1: not doing any work. And I could, you know, get

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Speaker 1: away with it, um, But there was a high cost there.

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Speaker 1: And socially, you know, I was increasingly isolating, not because

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Speaker 1: I didn't want to be around people, and we haven't

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Speaker 1: talked about my specific symptoms, but it was mostly UM

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Speaker 1: around decision making, you know, making a decision, reversing the decision,

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Speaker 1: going back and forth and back and forth for hours,

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Speaker 1: even over very very true your choices, engaging in my obsessions,

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Speaker 1: figuring things out, obsessing over what MP three player to get,

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Speaker 1: what shirt to wear, whatever the decision to your was.

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Speaker 1: And there were hundreds of them a day, so I

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Speaker 1: couldn't I couldn't figure things out if I was with

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Speaker 1: other people. So I was increasingly isolating and just going

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Speaker 1: deeper and deeper into this you know, O c D,

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Speaker 1: Fantasy Lander, Nightmareland. This is all happening in your late twenties,

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Speaker 1: early thirties. This was, Yeah, So the O c D

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Speaker 1: really started taking off when I was twenty nine. At

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Speaker 1: this point, it was my life was basically going to work,

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Speaker 1: trying to do some work if I could, coming home

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Speaker 1: and obsessing and you know, being late to work because

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Speaker 1: I was obsessing, and maintaining friendships. You know, I wasn't

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Speaker 1: totally isolated, but but but yeah, less and less, it

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Speaker 1: really felt like I was, yeah, drifting, drifting away from

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Speaker 1: the world and drifting deeper and deeper into my own

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Speaker 1: my own head. And it's sort of like because your

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Speaker 1: family know your friends or is this sort of they're

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Speaker 1: kind of aware it, but it's basically between you and

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Speaker 1: your therapist trying to figure it out. That yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was. I really kept people out. People were aware

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Speaker 1: that I was struggling, and again, this was not a

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Speaker 1: new thing, So it wasn't new for me to be

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Speaker 1: in a state of deep distress to the point that

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Speaker 1: my functioning was, you know, impaired. So friends and family,

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Speaker 1: you know, that's who I was. That was part of

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Speaker 1: my unfortunately part of my identity. So it wasn't like

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Speaker 1: people thought everything was fine with Adam. But this new

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Speaker 1: wrinkle of O c D was something that I very

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Speaker 1: much didn't want to let people into because I had

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Speaker 1: so much shame around it. We'll be talking more after

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Speaker 1: we hear this ad. Tell me about then, how this

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Speaker 1: show emerges. And I think the first time you form

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Speaker 1: the mushroom cure of the show is what about ten

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Speaker 1: years ago or so? Yeah, you know, having seen it

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Speaker 1: and you know, I know you I see a live

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Speaker 1: four years ago in Berkeley. I mean, it's incredibly funny

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Speaker 1: and touching, and you're obviously a talented comic, you know,

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Speaker 1: in addition to being a good actor as well. How

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Speaker 1: did that come about? How did you think to do

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Speaker 1: it that way? And how does it differ now for

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Speaker 1: or even a few years ago from what you originally

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Speaker 1: conceived it as. Yeah, So I never had any ambition

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Speaker 1: to do a solo show show or to be an actor.

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Speaker 1: I started doing stand up as the o c D

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Speaker 1: was really getting worse and worse. Uh. And I actually

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Speaker 1: look at stand up in some ways as an attempt,

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Speaker 1: not conscious at the time, but an attempt to to

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Speaker 1: get love and connection that I was too kind of afraid,

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Speaker 1: too vulnerable to get in the form of an intimate

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Speaker 1: relationship because this heartbreak had I don't want to say

401
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Speaker 1: cause the o c D but precipitated it. So I

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Speaker 1: was increasingly isolated, and I was very lonely and in

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Speaker 1: you know when you tell people you're comedian the last

404
00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:04,080
Speaker 1: and say, oh, that's brave. But I think for me,

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Speaker 1: it took less bravery to get on stage and try

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Speaker 1: to get laughs from an audience and get love and

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Speaker 1: connection and approval that way than it would have taken

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Speaker 1: at that point in my life to be in another

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Speaker 1: intimate relationship. And so I pretty much just started doing

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Speaker 1: stand up and the O c D was getting worse

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Speaker 1: and worse. And I was trying everything. So in addition

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Speaker 1: to the S s s R S and the therapy, I

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Speaker 1: did all the alternative and holistic treatments, acupuncture orbs UM,

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Speaker 1: you know, all this stuff, hypnotism, hypnotherapy. Nothing was helping.

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Speaker 1: And I stumbled across this study out of the University

416
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Speaker 1: of Arizona of psilocybin for O c D. And it

417
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Speaker 1: was a very small study. It's only nine subjects and

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Speaker 1: to date still the only published study of any psychedelic

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Speaker 1: for O c D, though fortunately there are three or

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Speaker 1: four new ones and much bigger ones in the works

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Speaker 1: right now. This is the one by is it is

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Speaker 1: it Francisco Moreno, Yes, yes, yeah, yeah, Safety, efficacy and

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Speaker 1: tolerability of psilocybin and nine patients with those c D

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Speaker 1: as a very long title, you know. And I had

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Speaker 1: essentially no psychedelic experience. I had tried psychedelics, but they

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Speaker 1: hadn't worked for me, probably in hindsight, because I was

427
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Speaker 1: honest her eyes. So I saw the study. And what's

428
00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:21,359
Speaker 1: interesting about the study is it wasn't the sort of

429
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:25,160
Speaker 1: studies they're doing now of like you know, psychedelic assisted psychotherapy.

430
00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:27,359
Speaker 1: There wasn't much of a therapy component. They were basically

431
00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:30,560
Speaker 1: giving people psilocybin at different doses, and there also wasn't

432
00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:33,920
Speaker 1: long term follow up, but the results were very encouraging.

433
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:37,320
Speaker 1: All the subjects had you know, significant remission, some just

434
00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:39,919
Speaker 1: for a short period of time, but they were they

435
00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:43,119
Speaker 1: were getting results and results that you know, I hadn't

436
00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:46,040
Speaker 1: seen with any of the treatments I've found. And so

437
00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:49,480
Speaker 1: even though I had very little psychedelic experience, there was

438
00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:51,080
Speaker 1: this sense of what what I have to lose by

439
00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:53,560
Speaker 1: trying this stuff, so that that set me off on

440
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:57,000
Speaker 1: my quest to cure my O c D with psychedelics.

441
00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:00,360
Speaker 1: The period of time I recount in the USh from

442
00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:04,320
Speaker 1: cure is two thousand and seven to two thousand and ten,

443
00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:08,200
Speaker 1: by which point, you know, I've gotten a lot of healing,

444
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:10,800
Speaker 1: I've gotten a lot of recovery. And there was a

445
00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:15,840
Speaker 1: sense of I need to share this story because the

446
00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:19,720
Speaker 1: story itself is the most incredible story that's ever happened

447
00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:22,160
Speaker 1: to me. I'm not saying the show is incredible the ship.

448
00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:24,080
Speaker 1: People may like or not like the show, but the

449
00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:28,560
Speaker 1: actual events that unfolded, the coincidences the people I met,

450
00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:34,159
Speaker 1: were to me just amazing and inspiring for me, and

451
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:37,760
Speaker 1: I felt incredibly lucky that I'd gone through these experiences,

452
00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:41,359
Speaker 1: and suffice to say, you know, it's it wasn't a

453
00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:45,040
Speaker 1: smooth journey. I was trying to cure my OCD with psychedelics,

454
00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:48,080
Speaker 1: with you know, in a pretty uncontrolled fashion, doing a

455
00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:52,120
Speaker 1: lot of different psychedelics that high doses and fairly frequently.

456
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:56,399
Speaker 1: So there were some powering experiences. Yet somehow, in a way,

457
00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:59,920
Speaker 1: everything seemed to come together to give me. This is

458
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:02,520
Speaker 1: that psychedelic cliche, but I think it's often an apt

459
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:04,879
Speaker 1: one to give me not what I wanted, but what

460
00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:07,720
Speaker 1: I needed. In some way, I felt like I'd really

461
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 1: been given this tremendous gift. And I wanted to share

462
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:15,920
Speaker 1: this story, one because I thought it could help people,

463
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:17,439
Speaker 1: but to just because I was like, this is a

464
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:19,200
Speaker 1: great fucking story. I don't know if I can tell

465
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:21,280
Speaker 1: it well, but I know the story itself is worthy

466
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:24,440
Speaker 1: of being shared. So I started trying to talk about

467
00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:26,960
Speaker 1: it in comedy clubs, but it quickly became apparent that

468
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:29,639
Speaker 1: there was just too much narrative here. It's not the

469
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:31,480
Speaker 1: sort of thing where it is you know, the show

470
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:33,760
Speaker 1: is funny, but it's not a punch line every twenty seconds.

471
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,280
Speaker 1: So I had no experience with theater. I've never studied acting.

472
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:40,440
Speaker 1: I'd barely even seen plays. But it was obvious that

473
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 1: that would be the correct forum for it, so I um,

474
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:45,120
Speaker 1: I decided to do the Edinburgh Fringe Festival in two

475
00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:47,320
Speaker 1: thousand and twelve, and that's where the show had its

476
00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 1: premiere and I had I have to ask you about

477
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 1: I think I was listening to you being interviewed on

478
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:55,000
Speaker 1: somebody else's podcast or something. Um uh, and you mentioned

479
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:59,119
Speaker 1: a relationship with Hamilton's Morris, another one of my guests

480
00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:02,080
Speaker 1: who was on a few months ago, you know who's

481
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:04,880
Speaker 1: just you know, this wonderful psycholic researcher, and he had

482
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:09,160
Speaker 1: his uh Hamilton's Pharma copea TV show which was broadly watched.

483
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:13,640
Speaker 1: I think you said that he was a comic. Yes,

484
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:15,880
Speaker 1: he we we met, he had he had a sort

485
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 1: of brief involvement in the in the comedy scene, and

486
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:21,560
Speaker 1: that's how we met initially, and he was part of

487
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:23,639
Speaker 1: the He was part of this early story for me.

488
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:26,199
Speaker 1: He was a close and as a close friend and

489
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 1: was someone who um even though he's significantly younger than me,

490
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:32,960
Speaker 1: it was a lot younger then was already I was

491
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:35,119
Speaker 1: gonna say dipping his toe into the psyculic waters. But

492
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:37,760
Speaker 1: more than dipping his toe was clearly you know, fascinated

493
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:40,800
Speaker 1: by psychedelics. You know, had a lot of insight on them,

494
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 1: and um, I just knew a lot more than I did.

495
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:46,439
Speaker 1: So we struck up a close friendship, and part of

496
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 1: that friendship was exploring these compounds and talking about our

497
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:56,080
Speaker 1: experiences and supporting each other in our in our respective

498
00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,119
Speaker 1: And I'll say, I'm sure it's just a coincidence. But

499
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:02,639
Speaker 1: there's a moment in the play where you're talking about

500
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 1: meeting a friend and he's giving you all this information

501
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:09,120
Speaker 1: about these white powders from China and these other things

502
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:11,720
Speaker 1: you should try in which doses, and the voice you

503
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:15,680
Speaker 1: give your friends sounds remarkably like Hamilton Morris. It's it's

504
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 1: not a coincidence. And I'm okay saying this because I've

505
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 1: asked Hamilton's permission. That was Hamilton's I'm depicting in the show.

506
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 1: So everything in the show is true, Um, even characters names.

507
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:29,600
Speaker 1: But I did change Hamilton's name to Harrison simply because

508
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:32,360
Speaker 1: there's a reference in the show to Hamilton's the musical

509
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:35,760
Speaker 1: and it's not confusing, so I mean, and now it

510
00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:37,199
Speaker 1: sort of makes a little bit of sense. He's got

511
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,119
Speaker 1: such a dry kind of tone about him. He is

512
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 1: at heart a scientist. You know. He had this TV

513
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,680
Speaker 1: show which is a great show and entertaining, and he's

514
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 1: funny and he is entertaining. But the thing that really

515
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 1: inspires him, so far as I can tell, is not

516
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:52,840
Speaker 1: being a public figure, is not being in the lime

517
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 1: night limelight, but being in the lab. His ambition was

518
00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:57,399
Speaker 1: to get in there in the lab and ticker with

519
00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:00,760
Speaker 1: tinker with these compounds, and learn more about these molecules

520
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:05,840
Speaker 1: and ultimately human consciousness. So uh, my motivation ultimately was

521
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:07,640
Speaker 1: to cure my O c D. But I'd be lying

522
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 1: if I said a big part of it wasn't also

523
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:14,600
Speaker 1: just this deep curiosity about these totally unique mental and

524
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:17,320
Speaker 1: emotional states and and how these compounds interact with the

525
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:20,359
Speaker 1: human nervous system. Uh uh you know you reference in

526
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:23,560
Speaker 1: the play. I think, uh, Sasha Shulgin, you know, and

527
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 1: his various um what is its stages of of how

528
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:29,480
Speaker 1: high you are on a psychedelic you know, the scale,

529
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:32,480
Speaker 1: the Sulgan scale, and we're plus four is the big

530
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:35,960
Speaker 1: transcendental one and plus plus one is basically maybe a

531
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 1: micro dose a little more, and plus two is maybe

532
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:41,120
Speaker 1: a museum level. Um So, had you read Shulgan early

533
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:43,120
Speaker 1: on or sort of you sort of become aware of

534
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:46,720
Speaker 1: it as you're uncovering stuff around, you know, psilocybin in

535
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 1: the you know, fifteen years ago whatever. Yeah, No, that

536
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 1: that was Hamilton's doing. He's the one who turned me

537
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:54,960
Speaker 1: on to T. Sholgan and I you know, I devoured

538
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:59,280
Speaker 1: Peak hall uh t call. They're they're great unique books.

539
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 1: You know, they're these we combination of like psychedelic recipe books, autobiography,

540
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:08,960
Speaker 1: a love story, meditations on the nature of consciousness and

541
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 1: love and sex and um so yeah, those books really

542
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,720
Speaker 1: were were mind expanding for me. When the person who

543
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 1: looms largest in the show and in your story is

544
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 1: a girlfriend who you call I mentioned a pseudonym of Grace.

545
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 1: Actually that's not a pseudonym, but it's her. It's not

546
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 1: her first name. I'll just leave it at that. But

547
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 1: that's not okay that that that is what I called

548
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 1: her in real life. So yeah, but do you think

549
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:36,760
Speaker 1: that your journey would have happened if you had not

550
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:39,800
Speaker 1: met Grace? I don't know. And this is one of

551
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,840
Speaker 1: the coincidences I alluded to earlier. So without giving a

552
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,040
Speaker 1: way too much of the show, I'd read the study,

553
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:48,320
Speaker 1: this Morno study out of the University of Arizona, and

554
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,120
Speaker 1: I'd resolve that, Okay, I need to try psychedelics because

555
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:53,560
Speaker 1: nothing else is working. And it was very soon after

556
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:56,440
Speaker 1: I read that study that I met this woman at

557
00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:59,240
Speaker 1: a comedy show in Times Square, of all places, the

558
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 1: middle of New York, the most anonymous, you know, fish

559
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 1: bowl in the in the Western hemisphere perhaps for people meeting,

560
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:08,720
Speaker 1: and we struck up a relationship. And it turned out

561
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 1: I didn't learn this until, you know, we've been dating

562
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 1: for a little bit, that she had essentially cured her clinical,

563
00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 1: debilitating suicidal depression with mescaline containing cacti. And so it

564
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:24,720
Speaker 1: was the shocking coincidence that, you know, this person who

565
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 1: had met seemingly randomly, had actually done in a sense

566
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 1: of the thing I was trying to do, and had

567
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:33,440
Speaker 1: a lot of relevant experience. So that was instrumental, I

568
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:36,400
Speaker 1: think in two ways. One she became sort of my

569
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 1: my unofficial guide on a lot of these journeys. Too.

570
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:41,760
Speaker 1: There was this sense and there is this sense of

571
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 1: coincidence that um with psychedelics, that sometimes I don't know

572
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 1: coincidences mean, and I'm open to the fact they're meaningless,

573
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 1: but it often feels to me like there is meaning.

574
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:54,920
Speaker 1: And one way I like to look a coincidence is

575
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 1: kind of keep going kind of a green flag from

576
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 1: from the unit first, like, Okay, you're I don't even

577
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:04,040
Speaker 1: want to say on the right path, because right or wrong,

578
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:07,120
Speaker 1: I think is a slippery slope, but you're on a path.

579
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,560
Speaker 1: And so I took it, even at the time when

580
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:12,920
Speaker 1: she revealed to me that oh she not only you know,

581
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 1: did she have some experience with psychedelics, but she'd actually

582
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:19,480
Speaker 1: affected great healing herself with them, that Okay, I'm on

583
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 1: the right path here, and absent that, I don't know,

584
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 1: I don't know if I would have embarked on this journey.

585
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:27,120
Speaker 1: You know, there's other research going on now with ketamine

586
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:30,000
Speaker 1: and O c D, and obviously there's research going on

587
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 1: with psilocybin um. So it does appear that maybe multiple

588
00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:35,640
Speaker 1: of these I don't know if there's anything within d

589
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 1: M A and O c D, but it does appeal

590
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:40,480
Speaker 1: that there's numerous of these psycholics that could potentially work

591
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 1: with a condition. And there's a funny scene in your

592
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 1: in your play where you're talking about your marijuana deal

593
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:49,480
Speaker 1: or trying to say, I can't get any mushrooms. You know,

594
00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:53,040
Speaker 1: there's a shortage, but how about some kennemine? And you react, no, no, no, no,

595
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:55,600
Speaker 1: I need any I need mushrooms. But if in fact

596
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 1: that that marijuana deal her friend of yours had been

597
00:31:57,680 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 1: able to come up with kenemine, it makes me wonder

598
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 1: there that might have also helped facilitate a bit of

599
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:06,240
Speaker 1: a breakthrough. One of the things that characterize O c

600
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,120
Speaker 1: D is a is a very sort of rigid, black

601
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:11,440
Speaker 1: and white way of thinking, and for me, in this

602
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:15,080
Speaker 1: context that manifested as well. The study was was mushrooms.

603
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:16,960
Speaker 1: So therefore I need mushrooms and I'm not interested in

604
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 1: anything else. Ultimately, through Hamilton's and other channels, I did

605
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 1: do a lot of other things, you know, probably two

606
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:27,719
Speaker 1: dozen different you know, Shulgin invention research, chemicals, mescaline containing cacti,

607
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 1: through grace LSD. But at that point I was very

608
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:33,520
Speaker 1: hell bent on mushrooms are going to fix me. Uh

609
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 1: So I wasn't open to that. But I have subsequently

610
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:40,960
Speaker 1: worked with ketamine, and I've been talking about this on stage.

611
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 1: I love how with psychedelics, they're the only drug where

612
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:45,320
Speaker 1: you can say worked with you know, no one's ever

613
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:47,080
Speaker 1: like that. I've been working with crystal meth, you know,

614
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:49,920
Speaker 1: doing a lot of work with cocaine. You're doing the

615
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 1: work with a capital T and a capital w R. Right,

616
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 1: it's this exalted thing. But you know, again, I think

617
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:57,880
Speaker 1: I think there is something to that. I think that

618
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 1: it is. It is work. Uh can be heavy, hard

619
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:04,000
Speaker 1: work with psychedelics in a way it hasn't been, you know,

620
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:07,239
Speaker 1: smoking a joint or I haven't done cocaine since you know,

621
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:10,080
Speaker 1: I was nineteen, But doing a line of blow doesn't

622
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:11,720
Speaker 1: feel like work in the same way. Well, you know

623
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 1: you also have you there's this phrase you came up

624
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 1: with which I love. I think it was to describe

625
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 1: your adventuring with all these chemicals. Um that that Hamilton

626
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:21,560
Speaker 1: others had told you about. You said you were engaging

627
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 1: in vigilanti psychotherapy, vigilanti psychopharmacology, psychopharmacology. Yes, and it really

628
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 1: was that, right. I mean, you're out there trying anything

629
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 1: to try to take it into your own hands. The

630
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 1: the timing of the play and the way you build

631
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:38,320
Speaker 1: up because I mean, for me, the point when this

632
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 1: morning I'm watching it and I'm bursting out laughing, is

633
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 1: when you get to the point of you know, actually

634
00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:47,360
Speaker 1: being in a full blow in plus four experience, you know,

635
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 1: on the psilocybic mushrooms, and tell me if I'm giving much,

636
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 1: too too much away, then we can always cut it

637
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 1: out in the editing. Um. And then you call nine

638
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:56,320
Speaker 1: one more right, you know, there by cutting off your

639
00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 1: you know, full blowing experience. UM. But it does see

640
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:03,080
Speaker 1: that that that really is a pivotal moment in your

641
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:08,080
Speaker 1: life when that happens. Absolutely absolutely, UM. I mean I

642
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:09,879
Speaker 1: had over the course of that two thousand and seven

643
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 1: to two thousand and ten period, I probably had I

644
00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 1: don't know, I'm gonna say sixty psychedelic experiences. A lot

645
00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:21,719
Speaker 1: of psychedelic experiences. So in the show I only talked

646
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:24,120
Speaker 1: about a handful of them, and I do highlight that

647
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:27,799
Speaker 1: one psilocybin mushroom trip as kind of this climax because

648
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:32,200
Speaker 1: it was a powerful trip and also a you know,

649
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:36,319
Speaker 1: from a dramatic drama theory perspective, good fodder because I

650
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:39,080
Speaker 1: did call nine one one on myself, and there there

651
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 1: is a transcript of it, and it's accurate. I start

652
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:43,520
Speaker 1: the call starts out with me asking the nine one

653
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:46,759
Speaker 1: one operator if if she's got and that is why

654
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:48,600
Speaker 1: I called nine one one. I want to be clear,

655
00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:50,279
Speaker 1: as I say in the show, I don't call nine

656
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:52,399
Speaker 1: one because I wanted the cops to come to my house.

657
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:54,799
Speaker 1: I called because I had some burning existential questions and

658
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 1: no one else was picking up their phone. And what

659
00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:59,399
Speaker 1: had happened was I had thrown my cell phone away

660
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:01,879
Speaker 1: in the woods. I don't remember why, but I've thrown

661
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:04,040
Speaker 1: it away the woods. We subsequently recovered it. There was

662
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:06,719
Speaker 1: a landline at the house I was staying at, but

663
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:09,680
Speaker 1: I couldn't remember any numbers. I remember my childhood phone number,

664
00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:13,319
Speaker 1: which I called. No one picked that up, thankfully I remembered.

665
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:16,439
Speaker 1: I called zero, the old operator number. No one picked

666
00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:19,040
Speaker 1: that up. And finally I called nine one one because

667
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:23,120
Speaker 1: I was consumed with this question of um, yeah, of

668
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:25,640
Speaker 1: of divinity, of higher power, of of what is God?

669
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:28,080
Speaker 1: Because on this master dose of mushrooms, there was a

670
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:31,479
Speaker 1: clear sense of all right, there's there's some order intelligence here,

671
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:35,719
Speaker 1: but what is it? And so the operator asked me

672
00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:38,279
Speaker 1: where I was for the address, and I had enough

673
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:40,759
Speaker 1: presence of mind to not tell her, but I was

674
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:43,040
Speaker 1: calling from a landline, and they traced the call and

675
00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:45,319
Speaker 1: they showed up at at the house with a bunch

676
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:49,720
Speaker 1: of content. Thereby violated, you know, the number one rule

677
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:53,880
Speaker 1: of when one takes too much you know, marijuana, or

678
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:57,240
Speaker 1: one doesn't an intense psychologue trip which is never called

679
00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 1: nine one one. And of course now there is fortunately

680
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:02,279
Speaker 1: something called the Fireside Project out there, which is for

681
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:04,839
Speaker 1: people who are having a psychedelic emergency or just want

682
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:07,400
Speaker 1: to process what's going on. I had one of the

683
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:12,040
Speaker 1: key founders of that project, Hanifaia Washington, on Psychoactive some

684
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 1: months ago. But you know, hopefully if this ever happens

685
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:17,080
Speaker 1: to you again, Adam, you can call a fireside project.

686
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:21,520
Speaker 1: They're calling on one one. Definitely a better choice. So

687
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:27,080
Speaker 1: that trip was pivotal. But I also should say the

688
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:31,640
Speaker 1: recovery I got thanks to psychedelics, it wasn't so much

689
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 1: one experience. It was a handful of particularly important experiences

690
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:42,040
Speaker 1: that really, the simplest way I could put it is

691
00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:44,160
Speaker 1: sometimes I think of o CD this way. It's like

692
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:47,800
Speaker 1: the brain or the mind is trying to fix a problem,

693
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:49,799
Speaker 1: a quote unquote problem in the body. And I put

694
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 1: it in quote because it's not really a problem. But

695
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:55,960
Speaker 1: the supposed problem is these emotions, which are just physical

696
00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:59,799
Speaker 1: sensations that we don't want to experience, principally fear. So

697
00:36:59,880 --> 00:37:02,200
Speaker 1: the mind of the o c D person is like, well,

698
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:04,240
Speaker 1: if I can get everything right, if I can figure

699
00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:07,400
Speaker 1: everything out, then the fear will go away. And of

700
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:11,239
Speaker 1: course it doesn't work. So freedom from o c D

701
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:15,440
Speaker 1: for me has actually come from really just connecting to

702
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:19,239
Speaker 1: my body more than anything else. And I understood this,

703
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 1: I should say, intellectually before I began working with psychedelics,

704
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:25,319
Speaker 1: because I had done so much work in therapy and

705
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:29,040
Speaker 1: the the standard therapy for o c D, cognitive behavioral

706
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:33,800
Speaker 1: therapy and particularly exposure response prevention, is really geared towards

707
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:38,360
Speaker 1: acceptance or surrendered. So the idea is, since o c

708
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:42,160
Speaker 1: D is trying to neutralize these unwanted emotions, these unwanted

709
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:46,400
Speaker 1: physical sensations, if you can accept those sensations instead of

710
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:49,360
Speaker 1: trying to get rid of them, then you're basically taking

711
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:51,799
Speaker 1: the wind out of o c D sales, You're depriving

712
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:55,680
Speaker 1: it of its of its reason for being and so

713
00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 1: therefore this therapy, cognitive behavioral therapy, is really about acceptance

714
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 1: or surrender, and I understood this intellectually, and so I

715
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 1: would be going through O c D and I'd be

716
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:09,680
Speaker 1: saying to myself, Okay, just accept the anxiety. Accept the anxiety.

717
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:11,640
Speaker 1: But I was just saying it to myself a conversation

718
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:16,720
Speaker 1: I was having in my brain, where actual acceptance happens

719
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:19,760
Speaker 1: at a physical level. These emotions exist in the body

720
00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:21,719
Speaker 1: and they have to be accepted in the body. But

721
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:25,440
Speaker 1: I just had no access to my physical experience. So

722
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:28,400
Speaker 1: the first time, even though I've done years of therapy

723
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:31,640
Speaker 1: geared towards acceptance, the first time I actually was able

724
00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 1: to do acceptance viscerally physically was on psychedelics. I had

725
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:39,160
Speaker 1: an experience which isn't isn't explicitly in the show, but

726
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:41,160
Speaker 1: it's it's sort of part of a number of trips

727
00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:44,480
Speaker 1: I recount where I was experiencing O c D. I

728
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:48,279
Speaker 1: was obsessing, and if I weren't on psychedelics, I would

729
00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:50,000
Speaker 1: have just thought about it more, trying to figure out

730
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:54,480
Speaker 1: harder in my head. But the psilocybin it connected me

731
00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:58,000
Speaker 1: deeply to my body and I could actually really feel

732
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 1: that fear in my body. In fact, I couldn't help

733
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:03,160
Speaker 1: not feel it. I had to feel it. It was

734
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:08,440
Speaker 1: so present, and because I've been exposed to cognitive behavioral therapy,

735
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:10,759
Speaker 1: there was little sort of light bulb moment where I

736
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:12,960
Speaker 1: was like, oh, this is what my therapist has been

737
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 1: talking about all these years. Instead of running from the sensation,

738
00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:19,960
Speaker 1: since I can finally feel it clearly, let me really

739
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:23,800
Speaker 1: go into it and just open up to it fully.

740
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:27,799
Speaker 1: And when I did that, the obsessive thoughts just kind

741
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:31,359
Speaker 1: of quieted down, and the feeling was still there. It

742
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 1: was unpleasant. This isn't a story of like, oh yeah,

743
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:35,799
Speaker 1: if you accept that, you know it's transmuted into love

744
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:37,920
Speaker 1: and light and joy and bliss. I do believe that

745
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:41,200
Speaker 1: happens sometimes, but certainly not routinely. It was like, Okay,

746
00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:44,200
Speaker 1: if I accept the sensation, guess what I have to feel?

747
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:46,680
Speaker 1: The shitty sensation I don't have to feel. But the

748
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:49,719
Speaker 1: upside is it undercuts the O c D. I'm no

749
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 1: longer obsessing. And the other thing is it's not like

750
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:55,439
Speaker 1: O c D prevents me from feeling it. I'm still

751
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:57,600
Speaker 1: feeling it at some level. I'm just trying to shut

752
00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:02,360
Speaker 1: it out. So once I had that oriens on psychedelics

753
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:07,520
Speaker 1: on that trip and then many other trips, gradually I

754
00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:09,600
Speaker 1: learned how to do that when I wasn't tripping, how

755
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 1: to really tune into my physical experience and open up

756
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:17,879
Speaker 1: to these unwanted, fierce sensations and find freedom that way.

757
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:22,280
Speaker 1: You know, I was googling around just you know, before

758
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 1: our conversation here, and I came across one of the

759
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:29,879
Speaker 1: co founders one of the psychedelics venture funds, was being

760
00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:33,840
Speaker 1: asked what he's excited about, and he referenced this study

761
00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:39,640
Speaker 1: at Yale on psilocybin and O c D. But one

762
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:41,960
Speaker 1: of the things he said is he goes, there appears

763
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:46,840
Speaker 1: to be little to no psychotherapy needed, as severe manifestations

764
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:48,319
Speaker 1: of O c D appear to be more like a

765
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:52,840
Speaker 1: motor disorder than one with a psychological underpinning. But on

766
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:55,719
Speaker 1: the other hand, you know, we typically hear all about psychedelics,

767
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:58,960
Speaker 1: you know, being most dramatically more valuable and safer to

768
00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:02,600
Speaker 1: be doing it with ecotherapy, and in your own personal experience,

769
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:04,560
Speaker 1: you seem to talk about that. I mean, have you

770
00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:07,279
Speaker 1: heard about this outcome of the Yale study or what's

771
00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:11,440
Speaker 1: your sense about that that reported finding. No, I'm not.

772
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:13,719
Speaker 1: I'm aware of the study and I know I I

773
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:16,839
Speaker 1: know one of the researcher who was involved and then

774
00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:19,600
Speaker 1: had a career change. Um, but I didn't know. I

775
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:22,040
Speaker 1: didn't know that specific finding. I know it hasn't been

776
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:25,600
Speaker 1: published yet. But that man, that that resonates with my

777
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:28,120
Speaker 1: experience in a way that I've not heard other people

778
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:30,719
Speaker 1: talk about, which is yes. So I just I just

779
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:33,120
Speaker 1: kind of halucidated this whole idea about for me, so

780
00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:37,000
Speaker 1: much of it was the physical experiencing piece of psychedelics,

781
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:38,319
Speaker 1: and let me go into that a little bit more.

782
00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:43,319
Speaker 1: I have not found insight to be particularly useful from

783
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:47,000
Speaker 1: psychedelics insofar as O c D. I've certainly had insights

784
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:49,480
Speaker 1: that have been helpful in my life, but it wasn't

785
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:53,759
Speaker 1: like it wasn't like these revelations that helped me from psychedelics.

786
00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:56,640
Speaker 1: With O c D. It wasn't like, uh, this, you know,

787
00:41:56,800 --> 00:42:01,719
Speaker 1: changing my self perception. It was very concretely, this connecting

788
00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:03,799
Speaker 1: me to my body, and once in my body, I

789
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:06,200
Speaker 1: have the choice. It's not gonna happen automatically, but at

790
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:08,440
Speaker 1: least I have the option or ability to accept my

791
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:11,360
Speaker 1: emotions in a way otherwise don't and thereby gain freedom

792
00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:14,400
Speaker 1: from them. So that accords what you just read. That

793
00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:18,319
Speaker 1: accords with my experience where it's not so much it's

794
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:21,720
Speaker 1: not something that you're talking through, it's something that you're experiencing.

795
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 1: So that's very cool. I'm I'm glad you shared that. Well,

796
00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:26,279
Speaker 1: let me as see this to I mean, what are

797
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:28,400
Speaker 1: the really funny moments in the play is when you

798
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:30,680
Speaker 1: talk about going to see your therapist, like what was

799
00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:35,160
Speaker 1: the name Dr Wilson calls Dr Wilson there, I did

800
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:38,399
Speaker 1: change his last name, so yes, but you know you're

801
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:40,279
Speaker 1: kind of, you know, riffing on him and you're kind

802
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:42,120
Speaker 1: of making fun of him and his degrees. But you

803
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:45,200
Speaker 1: know he's pushing you, um to try to have a

804
00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:47,120
Speaker 1: new approach to this and to get out of your

805
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:49,239
Speaker 1: head and your intellectual understanding, which is only going to

806
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:51,200
Speaker 1: go so far, even though that's the way he's communicating

807
00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:54,000
Speaker 1: to you. But he suggests to you that basically your

808
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:56,000
Speaker 1: O C D is like an addiction, and just as

809
00:42:56,040 --> 00:43:00,400
Speaker 1: there is an iconics addiction Anonymous and Alcoholics Anonymous for addiction,

810
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:04,160
Speaker 1: that you should go to O C Obsessive Compulsive Anonymous,

811
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:07,359
Speaker 1: and you tell this story of going and it's very

812
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:09,960
Speaker 1: funny because you're kind of, you know, looking at all

813
00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:12,160
Speaker 1: the skin pickers and the hair pullers and the handwashers,

814
00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:14,240
Speaker 1: and what are you still doing here if it's all working.

815
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:16,799
Speaker 1: Yet on the other hand, you kind of land up

816
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:20,399
Speaker 1: by saying this actually plays an important role that for you,

817
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 1: maybe it was less about combining uh psilocybin with psychotherapy

818
00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:30,120
Speaker 1: and more about combining psilocybin with what you learned by

819
00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:33,279
Speaker 1: going through a sort of twelve step approach. Yeah, and

820
00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:36,600
Speaker 1: I think all three of those components psilocybin, and i'd

821
00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:38,600
Speaker 1: say not just psilocybin. I mean the show is the

822
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:41,719
Speaker 1: mushroom Cure because it was inspired by that study of psilocybin,

823
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:43,719
Speaker 1: and that's what I was hell bent on getting. But

824
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:48,400
Speaker 1: ultimately mushrooms were very helpful, but LSD was helpful. Research

825
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:51,560
Speaker 1: chemicals were helpful. More recently, I found ayawaska to be helpful.

826
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:57,160
Speaker 1: So psychedelics certainly one component. Generally speaking, psychotherapy helpful in

827
00:43:57,200 --> 00:43:59,840
Speaker 1: the sense that it introduced me to this concept of

828
00:43:59,880 --> 00:44:03,880
Speaker 1: a acceptance. But in psychotherapy it was just a concept

829
00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:06,920
Speaker 1: for me. It wasn't a practice until I brought psychedelics

830
00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:09,839
Speaker 1: into the picture. And then yeah, the twelve step thing

831
00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:13,520
Speaker 1: very powerful and something that I still I still am

832
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:18,719
Speaker 1: involved in because well, I think there's a few components.

833
00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:23,920
Speaker 1: Um One is there is something very healing about peer

834
00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:27,960
Speaker 1: support and commiseration. There's a lot of people getting help

835
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:30,759
Speaker 1: from a therapist one on one, but the group peer

836
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:34,600
Speaker 1: support aspect is powerful one because it's not just about

837
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:38,160
Speaker 1: getting support from other people with O c D giving support.

838
00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:40,759
Speaker 1: The concept of service, which is a central concept in

839
00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:45,799
Speaker 1: twelve step programs, is so powerful for me because with

840
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:48,759
Speaker 1: O c D and addiction generally, you know, you're very

841
00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:52,400
Speaker 1: consumed with your own safety, your own happiness, your own comfort,

842
00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:56,080
Speaker 1: and just trying to do things for other people, even

843
00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:58,400
Speaker 1: if it's just going through the motions, it does at

844
00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:00,640
Speaker 1: least for me, it gets me out of my own

845
00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:02,960
Speaker 1: head and that gets me out of O c D

846
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:04,799
Speaker 1: because O c D only exists in my own head.

847
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:06,680
Speaker 1: So that's part of the twelve step thing that was

848
00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:09,960
Speaker 1: helpful for me. And what the twelve step thing brings

849
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:13,080
Speaker 1: in that I personally have found helpful is this idea

850
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:17,120
Speaker 1: of more of a cosmic surrender, whereas psychotherapy CBT it's

851
00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:19,640
Speaker 1: like all right, acceptance is allowing these emotions to be

852
00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:22,920
Speaker 1: there with a twelve step thing. There's this idea of

853
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:25,600
Speaker 1: a higher power, which is a concept that you know,

854
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:27,719
Speaker 1: I'm not even going to try to touch on because

855
00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:30,120
Speaker 1: it's something I certainly have no clarity on, and frankly,

856
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:32,120
Speaker 1: people who have a lot of clarity on that sometimes

857
00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:36,399
Speaker 1: scare me. But this idea of the idea that I'm

858
00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:39,680
Speaker 1: not in control, whether or not I believe you know

859
00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:43,520
Speaker 1: that the universe is run by by God or by

860
00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:47,279
Speaker 1: uh nature. One thing that I can get behind is

861
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:51,360
Speaker 1: this idea that I'm not in control. And this idea

862
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:54,560
Speaker 1: of letting things go, of turning things over, even if

863
00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:57,680
Speaker 1: I don't know what I'm turning them over to I

864
00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:01,919
Speaker 1: found and find helpful is just that reminder coming back

865
00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:05,759
Speaker 1: to And this idea of powerlessness, that's a very powerful concept.

866
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:09,000
Speaker 1: And powerlessness in the context of O c D. The

867
00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:11,839
Speaker 1: way I look at it is I'm not powerless over

868
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:14,640
Speaker 1: my actions. I have a choice about whether to accept

869
00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:16,759
Speaker 1: my anxiety or try to get rid of it by

870
00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:18,480
Speaker 1: engaging in O c D. I have a choice of

871
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:21,000
Speaker 1: whether I'm going to engage in obsessive thinking in rituals.

872
00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:26,080
Speaker 1: But where I am powerless is I can't choose the

873
00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:29,280
Speaker 1: sensations in my body, and I can't choose the thoughts

874
00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:32,719
Speaker 1: that come into my mind. O c D is about

875
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:35,640
Speaker 1: trying to control those sensations and those thoughts. If I

876
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:37,720
Speaker 1: do the ritual right, if I think the correct thought,

877
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:40,799
Speaker 1: then the sensations or thoughts will change. And if you

878
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:43,320
Speaker 1: really buy into the twelve step thing, what you're saying

879
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:46,319
Speaker 1: is no, I actually am powerless over those thoughts when

880
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:50,960
Speaker 1: they arise, when they go. And if you accept that, paradoxically,

881
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:54,280
Speaker 1: there's a great deal of freedom because you're saying, Okay,

882
00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:57,600
Speaker 1: I can't control, you know, my thoughts and experiences, so

883
00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:00,719
Speaker 1: I can just kind of let it go anim just

884
00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:02,640
Speaker 1: to competise that. I mean, so when I think about

885
00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:05,360
Speaker 1: some of the the ping pong gang that you do

886
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:07,439
Speaker 1: in this show, you know which side of the street

887
00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:09,800
Speaker 1: to walk on, the sunny side of the shady side? Uh,

888
00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:13,080
Speaker 1: you know which iPhone or MP three player to buy,

889
00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:15,880
Speaker 1: which shirt to wear to a performance, whatever, But just

890
00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:17,640
Speaker 1: say to take the one about walking down the street

891
00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:19,000
Speaker 1: and whether to go to the sunny side of the

892
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:24,920
Speaker 1: shady side. So, now being more liberated from your O

893
00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:27,719
Speaker 1: c D or having it subsided so it's no longer

894
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:30,279
Speaker 1: such a controlling thing. What does that mean when you

895
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:34,680
Speaker 1: talk about the surrender powerlessness, that you're walking down the street,

896
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:37,600
Speaker 1: that you feel this consciousness of should I go on

897
00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:40,040
Speaker 1: the other side and back and forth happening, but that

898
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:43,120
Speaker 1: you just sort of accept that you're going to have

899
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:46,319
Speaker 1: this feeling in your body, but you'll just stick with

900
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:51,640
Speaker 1: where you are. So in the show, I talked about

901
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:55,480
Speaker 1: a lot of these sort of daily O c D things,

902
00:47:55,480 --> 00:47:57,399
Speaker 1: what to wear, wat side of the street to walk down.

903
00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 1: So when I started to get real recovery from most

904
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:03,520
Speaker 1: c D, those daily smaller forms of O c D,

905
00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:06,440
Speaker 1: those went away entirely, so I don't have that anymore.

906
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:09,279
Speaker 1: What side of the street to walk down? Initially, though,

907
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:12,719
Speaker 1: when I started to recover, it was exactly as you described.

908
00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:14,799
Speaker 1: I'm walking down this side of the street, and I'm

909
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:16,919
Speaker 1: gonna keep walking on this side of the street, even

910
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:19,560
Speaker 1: though now my mind is telling me I should cross

911
00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:21,040
Speaker 1: to the other side of the street because the other

912
00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:23,520
Speaker 1: side is sunny and I need sunshine. I'm just gonna

913
00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:26,239
Speaker 1: keep walking on the shady side, and I'm going to

914
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:30,640
Speaker 1: really open up to the discomfort and anxiety. And once

915
00:48:30,680 --> 00:48:34,880
Speaker 1: I did, that. You know a number of times that anxiety,

916
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:38,880
Speaker 1: uh it just went away. Where it flares up now

917
00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:43,160
Speaker 1: is more in novel decisions, decisions I don't encounter that

918
00:48:43,239 --> 00:48:48,520
Speaker 1: often in bigger ones. So decisions often about career stuff.

919
00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:51,680
Speaker 1: Should I do a tour of the show in this

920
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:55,600
Speaker 1: city or that city? That sort of thing, and there

921
00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:58,920
Speaker 1: it's the same thing. It's okay, I'm experiencing this anxiety.

922
00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:01,440
Speaker 1: My mind is telling me I have to think about

923
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:03,640
Speaker 1: this morning. I have to figure out the perfect answer.

924
00:49:04,160 --> 00:49:06,560
Speaker 1: I know rationally, I'm not going to find a perfect answer.

925
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:09,520
Speaker 1: I know rationally that the more I think about it,

926
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:11,799
Speaker 1: the more confused I get, the more fearful I'm going

927
00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:13,680
Speaker 1: to get, and the harder it's going to make a decision.

928
00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:15,920
Speaker 1: But but yet, I really do still want to keep

929
00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:17,480
Speaker 1: thinking about it because I don't want to feel this

930
00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:21,319
Speaker 1: discomfort right now. So let me just really try to

931
00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:24,160
Speaker 1: open up the discomfort as best as I can. And

932
00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:26,280
Speaker 1: in a way, it really comes down to how quickly

933
00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:28,960
Speaker 1: am I willing to take the hit, because I'm going

934
00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:31,360
Speaker 1: to You know, when I have anxiety about a decision,

935
00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:34,560
Speaker 1: there's going to be a moment where I'm going to

936
00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:37,319
Speaker 1: have to fully experience that anxiety if I want to

937
00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:40,719
Speaker 1: get past it, and I'd love to say that, you know,

938
00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:43,560
Speaker 1: I just accept and surrender instantly, but I don't. I

939
00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:45,520
Speaker 1: can still I can still go down that rabbit hole

940
00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:47,880
Speaker 1: a little bit. But yeah, to get that freedom is

941
00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:50,040
Speaker 1: it's the same thing as when I was walking down

942
00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:52,400
Speaker 1: the streets. It's just really opening up at a physical

943
00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:57,200
Speaker 1: level experiencing it. And I should be clear, it's not

944
00:49:57,239 --> 00:49:59,719
Speaker 1: necessarily a one time thing. If it's like a big

945
00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:02,920
Speaker 1: decis vision, I might have to do that thirty or

946
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:05,040
Speaker 1: forty times a day, and it may come up and

947
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:08,000
Speaker 1: keep popping up for days on end, and it's going

948
00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:09,640
Speaker 1: to be part of my experience, and it's going to

949
00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:12,560
Speaker 1: be unpleasant and it's going to cause a degree of suffering.

950
00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:16,880
Speaker 1: But the more unwilling to accept, the less suffering and

951
00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:20,399
Speaker 1: the more freedom I find. Let's take a break here

952
00:50:20,560 --> 00:50:35,040
Speaker 1: and go to an ad M. You've mentioned how the

953
00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:37,960
Speaker 1: length of this show has been reduced from about you know,

954
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:40,799
Speaker 1: in two hours to about eighty minutes or so, and

955
00:50:40,840 --> 00:50:44,000
Speaker 1: obviously that involved telling less of the you know, fewer

956
00:50:44,040 --> 00:50:47,319
Speaker 1: anecdotes about your drug experiences. But were there ways in

957
00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:51,279
Speaker 1: which the show evolved as your insights into O c

958
00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:55,799
Speaker 1: D and your condition. Uh changed during the time since

959
00:50:55,840 --> 00:50:59,680
Speaker 1: you started the show. The show certainly evolved a lot,

960
00:50:59,719 --> 00:51:01,960
Speaker 1: but I would say it was less as a result

961
00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:04,920
Speaker 1: of my journey with O City and Psychedelics, because I

962
00:51:04,920 --> 00:51:08,640
Speaker 1: mean that journey wasn't complete in two thousand and twelve

963
00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:10,640
Speaker 1: when I started doing the show, and it's still it's

964
00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:12,560
Speaker 1: ongoing for me as well. But you know, all the

965
00:51:12,600 --> 00:51:16,200
Speaker 1: events I recount, we're finished by about two thousand and ten.

966
00:51:16,360 --> 00:51:19,840
Speaker 1: So really the evolution is more the evolution of me

967
00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:23,680
Speaker 1: as a performer and writer and creator. So when I

968
00:51:23,719 --> 00:51:26,400
Speaker 1: did the show first in Edinburgh in two thousand and

969
00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:29,239
Speaker 1: twelve the Edinburgh Fringe Festival, pretty much nothing could be

970
00:51:29,280 --> 00:51:31,080
Speaker 1: longer than an hour general, I mean, you can, but

971
00:51:31,120 --> 00:51:33,000
Speaker 1: it's very hard to draw audiences. So the show is

972
00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:36,000
Speaker 1: an hour and it got a you know, a strong

973
00:51:36,080 --> 00:51:39,400
Speaker 1: critical response, reviews and people, you know, it got a

974
00:51:39,480 --> 00:51:42,560
Speaker 1: very positive response. But I came away from the festival

975
00:51:42,640 --> 00:51:46,480
Speaker 1: feeling like, ah, there's so much important stuff I'm leaving

976
00:51:46,520 --> 00:51:49,719
Speaker 1: out that I didn't find it totally fulfilling sharing the

977
00:51:49,760 --> 00:51:53,000
Speaker 1: show because I do have this, perhaps some would say,

978
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:55,840
Speaker 1: an obsession with truth, Like I really I don't embellish

979
00:51:55,880 --> 00:51:58,719
Speaker 1: things in the show. I don't. It's it's all truthful.

980
00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:00,640
Speaker 1: But it felt to me like there were so many

981
00:52:00,680 --> 00:52:04,880
Speaker 1: omissions that I wasn't fully capturing the truth. And so

982
00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:07,839
Speaker 1: after Edinburgh, I was like, you know, yeah, I think

983
00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:09,840
Speaker 1: I've told this story and I'm done with it. And

984
00:52:09,880 --> 00:52:12,200
Speaker 1: I started working on other projects, but I kept wanting

985
00:52:12,239 --> 00:52:13,840
Speaker 1: to come back to the show. I kept wanting to

986
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:16,680
Speaker 1: come back to this story. So then I decided, you

987
00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:19,400
Speaker 1: know what, forget any time limits. Why don't you just

988
00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:21,200
Speaker 1: figure out how to tell the story and the way

989
00:52:21,239 --> 00:52:25,640
Speaker 1: that feels most truthful to you, and length be damned.

990
00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:28,880
Speaker 1: And so I started doing that and it cut longer

991
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:30,600
Speaker 1: and longer, and so when I was doing the New

992
00:52:30,680 --> 00:52:33,160
Speaker 1: York Fringe Festival in two thousand and fourteen, it was

993
00:52:33,239 --> 00:52:36,880
Speaker 1: over two hours long, and and it was just me

994
00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:38,759
Speaker 1: sitting at a desk, because I remember, I had no

995
00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:41,880
Speaker 1: acting experience, I had no background in the theater, so

996
00:52:41,960 --> 00:52:43,640
Speaker 1: for me, it was really about the story, and it

997
00:52:43,719 --> 00:52:47,480
Speaker 1: was me sitting at a desk telling the story. And

998
00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:51,080
Speaker 1: it's still got a very strong reception um but there

999
00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:54,800
Speaker 1: was a feeling that there was a feeling that it

1000
00:52:54,840 --> 00:52:58,120
Speaker 1: still hadn't assumed its final form, and so then I

1001
00:52:58,160 --> 00:53:00,879
Speaker 1: began working with a director for the first time who

1002
00:53:00,920 --> 00:53:03,400
Speaker 1: I still work with. His name is Jonathan Libman. Really

1003
00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:08,360
Speaker 1: just brilliant, brilliant theater director, and he introduced me to

1004
00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:10,959
Speaker 1: the language of theater, by which I mean he would

1005
00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:13,560
Speaker 1: say things like, well, instead of spending four minutes telling

1006
00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:16,919
Speaker 1: this story, you can act it out in twenty five

1007
00:53:16,920 --> 00:53:19,040
Speaker 1: seconds if you get up from behind your desk and

1008
00:53:19,120 --> 00:53:21,920
Speaker 1: walk over here, and we change the lights and you

1009
00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:25,520
Speaker 1: know that, that sort of thing. So that was and

1010
00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:30,279
Speaker 1: has been a very fruitful relationship where we've now brought

1011
00:53:30,400 --> 00:53:33,840
Speaker 1: to the show gradually more of these theatrical elements. But

1012
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:37,440
Speaker 1: shortening the show has come down to, yes, cutting recounting

1013
00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:41,319
Speaker 1: some of the drug experiences and some other experiences, but

1014
00:53:41,480 --> 00:53:46,840
Speaker 1: also in some ways substituting um minutes of words with

1015
00:53:46,960 --> 00:53:51,520
Speaker 1: a few seconds of gesture or lighting or movement, and

1016
00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:54,640
Speaker 1: that's that's allowed the show to assume it's current form.

1017
00:53:54,760 --> 00:53:57,800
Speaker 1: I'm curious to other drugs, I mean not psychedelic drugs,

1018
00:53:57,840 --> 00:54:01,040
Speaker 1: but things like cannabis or alcohol. You use those and

1019
00:54:01,080 --> 00:54:03,400
Speaker 1: do they play into your experience of O C D

1020
00:54:03,520 --> 00:54:07,280
Speaker 1: in anyway? I don't use alcohol. I have nothing against alcohol,

1021
00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:10,120
Speaker 1: it's just I don't like I don't like alcohol hangovers.

1022
00:54:10,120 --> 00:54:13,920
Speaker 1: So that's that's uh, not something I use. I do

1023
00:54:13,960 --> 00:54:18,799
Speaker 1: not work with alcohol. I'm not working without. Uh. Cannabis. Yeah,

1024
00:54:18,920 --> 00:54:22,240
Speaker 1: cannabis can be a double edged sword. Um, I do

1025
00:54:22,440 --> 00:54:26,760
Speaker 1: I like cannabis. I'd say I generally smoke cannabis probably

1026
00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:29,560
Speaker 1: like once a week on average. I find it can

1027
00:54:29,560 --> 00:54:33,360
Speaker 1: be helpful creatively. It can give me insight and perspective

1028
00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:35,399
Speaker 1: that's different from my sober mind, and that can help

1029
00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:38,200
Speaker 1: creatively in terms of, you know, my work shows, uh,

1030
00:54:38,360 --> 00:54:41,080
Speaker 1: comedy writing, but also in terms of like looking at

1031
00:54:41,120 --> 00:54:44,400
Speaker 1: relationships in my life in a different light, where cannabis

1032
00:54:44,400 --> 00:54:47,200
Speaker 1: can be quite helpful for me at least it can

1033
00:54:47,239 --> 00:54:50,080
Speaker 1: promote empathy. It can promote me really kind of seeing, Oh,

1034
00:54:50,200 --> 00:54:53,440
Speaker 1: I didn't realize, but this person is doing this because

1035
00:54:54,040 --> 00:54:56,600
Speaker 1: it's probably because they have this trauma and I didn't

1036
00:54:56,600 --> 00:54:59,319
Speaker 1: connect the dots. And sometimes it's like I might not

1037
00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:03,360
Speaker 1: even be right about my interpretation, but the interpretation itself

1038
00:55:03,719 --> 00:55:07,239
Speaker 1: leads to more compassion and that that helps UM open

1039
00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:09,640
Speaker 1: things up in how I'm going to respond to that relationship.

1040
00:55:10,440 --> 00:55:13,560
Speaker 1: On the other hand, I will say cannabis sometimes I

1041
00:55:13,640 --> 00:55:16,839
Speaker 1: have found, you know, I tend to like kind of

1042
00:55:17,120 --> 00:55:21,440
Speaker 1: speedy sativas, and that can lead to more racing thoughts

1043
00:55:21,480 --> 00:55:23,640
Speaker 1: and more so there have been times where I've had,

1044
00:55:23,719 --> 00:55:28,360
Speaker 1: like I found myself kind of yeah, starting to obsess

1045
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:30,880
Speaker 1: on cannabis in a way where I feel like the

1046
00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:37,080
Speaker 1: cannabis is um is potentiating the obsession was ayahuasca. Your

1047
00:55:37,080 --> 00:55:40,439
Speaker 1: experience in ayahuasca is something distinctive, um in any way

1048
00:55:40,440 --> 00:55:42,960
Speaker 1: from all the other ones, well, the other tecal experiences.

1049
00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:46,480
Speaker 1: I'd say it's a matter of degree and that we

1050
00:55:46,600 --> 00:55:48,520
Speaker 1: talked about this sort of and it sounds like for

1051
00:55:48,600 --> 00:55:51,719
Speaker 1: you as well. With psilocybin containing mushrooms, so much of

1052
00:55:51,760 --> 00:55:57,239
Speaker 1: it is this very just deep, concrete physical experience, and

1053
00:55:57,480 --> 00:56:01,640
Speaker 1: ayahuasca I find even more so a physical experience for me.

1054
00:56:01,719 --> 00:56:05,440
Speaker 1: So I really I don't get like immersive visions on ayahuasca.

1055
00:56:05,760 --> 00:56:08,759
Speaker 1: I don't get much insight. And maybe that's because I've

1056
00:56:08,760 --> 00:56:11,240
Speaker 1: already done so many psychedelics. Maybe I've kind of plucked

1057
00:56:11,280 --> 00:56:14,520
Speaker 1: the low hanging insight fruit from the psychedelic tree already.

1058
00:56:14,560 --> 00:56:18,680
Speaker 1: But the physical experience of ayahuasca it really really just

1059
00:56:18,800 --> 00:56:22,800
Speaker 1: grounding me and my grounding me and my body is um.

1060
00:56:22,840 --> 00:56:25,719
Speaker 1: I find it has that effect more so than any

1061
00:56:25,719 --> 00:56:29,880
Speaker 1: other psychedelic So I did ayahuasca a bunch of New

1062
00:56:29,960 --> 00:56:32,520
Speaker 1: York and then I went down to Peru. And in

1063
00:56:32,600 --> 00:56:34,520
Speaker 1: Peru I did I think, I did tense ceremonies in

1064
00:56:34,560 --> 00:56:38,279
Speaker 1: sixteen nights, which I don't know if I necessarily recommend it,

1065
00:56:38,920 --> 00:56:44,160
Speaker 1: but it was One effect of this is I discovered

1066
00:56:44,160 --> 00:56:46,759
Speaker 1: I had feet. I mean, I knew intellectually I had feet,

1067
00:56:46,760 --> 00:56:49,200
Speaker 1: but I had never really had a deep awareness of

1068
00:56:49,239 --> 00:56:52,520
Speaker 1: the sensations coming from my feet until I think it

1069
00:56:52,560 --> 00:56:55,320
Speaker 1: was after my a thiahuasca ceremony and I'm walking into

1070
00:56:55,440 --> 00:56:59,480
Speaker 1: like the you know, dining hall at this retreat center.

1071
00:56:59,560 --> 00:57:01,400
Speaker 1: Maybe it was the loca, the ceremonial space, but I

1072
00:57:01,440 --> 00:57:03,279
Speaker 1: was walking into one a space that had these very

1073
00:57:03,360 --> 00:57:07,200
Speaker 1: rough hewn wood playing floors, and I became acutely aware

1074
00:57:07,320 --> 00:57:10,800
Speaker 1: of the you know, minute gradations of pressure and temperature

1075
00:57:10,800 --> 00:57:14,560
Speaker 1: on my feet. And it sounds trivial, but that has

1076
00:57:14,600 --> 00:57:16,680
Speaker 1: been a significant thing for me that I stayed with me.

1077
00:57:16,760 --> 00:57:19,400
Speaker 1: That was four years ago, five years ago, and I

1078
00:57:19,480 --> 00:57:23,440
Speaker 1: still have the sort of baseline awareness of the sensations

1079
00:57:23,440 --> 00:57:26,200
Speaker 1: in my feet. That is quite literally grounding for me.

1080
00:57:26,760 --> 00:57:28,760
Speaker 1: And it's those sort of experiences that I've had on

1081
00:57:28,760 --> 00:57:31,720
Speaker 1: ayahuasca that I have not had on any other Psychedelogyally,

1082
00:57:32,840 --> 00:57:35,880
Speaker 1: you're reminding me on my very first M d M

1083
00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:39,840
Speaker 1: A experience, which was in my early thirties, and one

1084
00:57:39,880 --> 00:57:41,600
Speaker 1: of the things I remember was all of a sudden

1085
00:57:41,720 --> 00:57:45,120
Speaker 1: being conscious how much I carried most of my energy

1086
00:57:45,120 --> 00:57:48,720
Speaker 1: and my my body consciousness in my torso and how

1087
00:57:48,800 --> 00:57:51,120
Speaker 1: much they were not. I did not feel grounded and

1088
00:57:51,240 --> 00:57:53,000
Speaker 1: under the under the n d M A experience, I

1089
00:57:53,080 --> 00:57:56,720
Speaker 1: felt myself becoming more ground in my feet, hitting you know,

1090
00:57:56,880 --> 00:57:59,520
Speaker 1: on the ground, and it felt like a better place

1091
00:57:59,600 --> 00:58:01,560
Speaker 1: to be. But it was, I say, the first time

1092
00:58:01,600 --> 00:58:03,840
Speaker 1: I've had that consciousness. And you know, I am able

1093
00:58:03,880 --> 00:58:06,360
Speaker 1: to recome back at certain points of that consciousness, which

1094
00:58:06,360 --> 00:58:10,080
Speaker 1: I think has been has been helpful. But you know,

1095
00:58:10,160 --> 00:58:11,919
Speaker 1: let me, let me go back to me again. So

1096
00:58:12,240 --> 00:58:16,040
Speaker 1: in these gatherings, right, so you're you're entering in this world,

1097
00:58:16,080 --> 00:58:21,360
Speaker 1: I mean, you're going to obsessive compulsive anonymous, right, you're

1098
00:58:21,400 --> 00:58:24,880
Speaker 1: presumably talking about this. I mean, I imagine because of

1099
00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:28,560
Speaker 1: your work, you're being invited to conferences about obsessive compulsioness

1100
00:58:28,600 --> 00:58:31,640
Speaker 1: you're meeting large numbers of people who experience and live

1101
00:58:31,720 --> 00:58:35,440
Speaker 1: with O c D. I'm wondering about what's the reaction

1102
00:58:35,560 --> 00:58:39,040
Speaker 1: to them, um when they hear about your experience, and

1103
00:58:39,320 --> 00:58:40,840
Speaker 1: because I mean it must be in some respects in

1104
00:58:40,840 --> 00:58:43,320
Speaker 1: the way you're sort of almost spreading the word about

1105
00:58:43,320 --> 00:58:46,160
Speaker 1: a cure. And I'm wondering also not what is it now,

1106
00:58:46,200 --> 00:58:48,680
Speaker 1: but also how is it evolved? American I will imagine

1107
00:58:48,680 --> 00:58:51,160
Speaker 1: ten years ago with the whole notion of having a

1108
00:58:51,240 --> 00:58:54,200
Speaker 1: mushroom cure for O c D sounded way out there,

1109
00:58:54,520 --> 00:58:57,520
Speaker 1: as opposed to now when the magic of psychedelics and

1110
00:58:57,560 --> 00:59:00,320
Speaker 1: the psychedelic renaissance is all in the news, that there's

1111
00:59:00,320 --> 00:59:02,960
Speaker 1: a different reaction. But just describe a bit some of

1112
00:59:03,000 --> 00:59:05,400
Speaker 1: the response if you've gotten from people living with o

1113
00:59:05,520 --> 00:59:08,120
Speaker 1: c D, whether it's into twelve step programs or elsewhere.

1114
00:59:08,720 --> 00:59:11,880
Speaker 1: I have not talked about this explicitly in twelve step

1115
00:59:11,920 --> 00:59:15,560
Speaker 1: meetings because in the twelve step framework, one of the

1116
00:59:15,600 --> 00:59:19,280
Speaker 1: guidelines is you don't talk about outside treatment, so people

1117
00:59:19,360 --> 00:59:21,400
Speaker 1: won't talk about S s R. Eyes. You know, it's

1118
00:59:21,400 --> 00:59:25,760
Speaker 1: really focused on this twelve step approach. But certainly i've

1119
00:59:25,880 --> 00:59:30,960
Speaker 1: spoken you know, widely conferences and podcasts like this, and yeah,

1120
00:59:31,000 --> 00:59:33,560
Speaker 1: you know, I think there's a selection bias and that

1121
00:59:33,680 --> 00:59:35,840
Speaker 1: the people who reach out to me are people who

1122
00:59:35,840 --> 00:59:38,640
Speaker 1: are open to this. I'm sure there are people who

1123
00:59:38,640 --> 00:59:41,240
Speaker 1: are not open to this and may maybe put off

1124
00:59:41,280 --> 00:59:43,480
Speaker 1: by the idea of using psychedelics for o c D.

1125
00:59:43,520 --> 00:59:45,960
Speaker 1: But I get a lot of, you know, emails and

1126
00:59:46,040 --> 00:59:50,600
Speaker 1: messages on social media from people who are essentially saying, yeah,

1127
00:59:50,720 --> 00:59:52,840
Speaker 1: I want to do what you did, you know, what

1128
00:59:53,040 --> 00:59:57,000
Speaker 1: what do you suggest? And the fact that I get

1129
00:59:57,040 --> 00:59:59,000
Speaker 1: so many people reaching out to me, I think reflects

1130
00:59:59,000 --> 01:00:01,040
Speaker 1: the fact that there are are so many people out

1131
01:00:01,040 --> 01:00:03,040
Speaker 1: there with o c D who are just not being

1132
01:00:03,840 --> 01:00:08,080
Speaker 1: sufficiently helped with with standard treatments. And this is not

1133
01:00:08,120 --> 01:00:10,120
Speaker 1: to take anything away from you know, it's a lot

1134
01:00:10,160 --> 01:00:13,520
Speaker 1: of very committed, very compassionate, very talented o c D

1135
01:00:13,640 --> 01:00:17,280
Speaker 1: therapists out there who are doing great work. And again,

1136
01:00:17,400 --> 01:00:20,600
Speaker 1: therapy can be life changing for some people, and for

1137
01:00:20,640 --> 01:00:22,760
Speaker 1: that matter, S s s R I S can be life

1138
01:00:22,800 --> 01:00:25,680
Speaker 1: changing for some people, but for many people, the existing

1139
01:00:25,680 --> 01:00:28,720
Speaker 1: remedies just aren't aren't enough. And that's one of the

1140
01:00:28,760 --> 01:00:31,440
Speaker 1: things that I find that really upsets me about the

1141
01:00:31,480 --> 01:00:34,800
Speaker 1: fact that this Morano study was published in The study

1142
01:00:34,840 --> 01:00:37,320
Speaker 1: I read of psilocybro procy was published in December two

1143
01:00:37,320 --> 01:00:41,480
Speaker 1: thousand and six. We're sixteen years almost sixteen years later,

1144
01:00:41,760 --> 01:00:44,560
Speaker 1: and there hasn't been a single follow up study published,

1145
01:00:44,560 --> 01:00:47,960
Speaker 1: though again that will change very soon, thankfully. But meanwhile,

1146
01:00:48,440 --> 01:00:50,680
Speaker 1: two percent of the population is estimated to suffer from

1147
01:00:50,720 --> 01:00:52,120
Speaker 1: o c D. People with o c D have ten

1148
01:00:52,200 --> 01:00:54,480
Speaker 1: times the suicide rate of the general population. Like this

1149
01:00:54,560 --> 01:01:00,560
Speaker 1: is a huge societal, worldwide problem, and yet my mind,

1150
01:01:00,720 --> 01:01:04,400
Speaker 1: the most promising new treatment that's come along in decades,

1151
01:01:04,520 --> 01:01:08,640
Speaker 1: maybe ever, there's been almost no investigation of it. Uh,

1152
01:01:08,680 --> 01:01:11,720
Speaker 1: though thankfully that is changing. So that's all to say

1153
01:01:11,760 --> 01:01:15,280
Speaker 1: that the reactions I've gotten are generally from people who

1154
01:01:15,320 --> 01:01:18,960
Speaker 1: are desperate and because what they've tried hasn't helped during

1155
01:01:19,000 --> 01:01:22,320
Speaker 1: the same shoes I was in and and are looking

1156
01:01:22,400 --> 01:01:27,520
Speaker 1: for for guidance and working with psychedelics for their own healing. Well,

1157
01:01:27,520 --> 01:01:29,560
Speaker 1: hopefully we'll see it opening up of funding from the

1158
01:01:29,560 --> 01:01:32,000
Speaker 1: federal government right thing. For a long time, they're only

1159
01:01:32,000 --> 01:01:35,520
Speaker 1: willing to provide money for knamine research dealing with O

1160
01:01:35,640 --> 01:01:38,320
Speaker 1: c D or addictionary conditions like that, And hopefully that's

1161
01:01:38,360 --> 01:01:41,560
Speaker 1: beginning to change because of the changes at the leadership.

1162
01:01:41,600 --> 01:01:43,240
Speaker 1: But you know, a national steit of health nationally seen

1163
01:01:43,280 --> 01:01:46,080
Speaker 1: of drug abuse, and obviously there's the private money um

1164
01:01:46,080 --> 01:01:49,000
Speaker 1: coming into this at this time, so you know, we

1165
01:01:49,000 --> 01:01:52,160
Speaker 1: can hope for some sort of more significant breakthrough. But

1166
01:01:52,200 --> 01:01:55,680
Speaker 1: I'm mostly curious and do you consider O c D

1167
01:01:55,840 --> 01:02:02,560
Speaker 1: a form of addiction? Yes, yes, I do. The hesitation

1168
01:02:02,560 --> 01:02:05,439
Speaker 1: of my original yes was because I have sometimes gotten

1169
01:02:05,480 --> 01:02:06,960
Speaker 1: a little bit of pushback on when I say, oh,

1170
01:02:07,040 --> 01:02:09,880
Speaker 1: CD is an addiction, as people who take issue with

1171
01:02:09,960 --> 01:02:12,960
Speaker 1: that because to them, addiction has a negative connotation, and

1172
01:02:13,000 --> 01:02:14,800
Speaker 1: I get that does have a negative connotation, but I

1173
01:02:14,840 --> 01:02:17,200
Speaker 1: don't mean it that way at all. I would define

1174
01:02:17,200 --> 01:02:22,840
Speaker 1: an addiction broadly speaking, as a strategy to avoid or

1175
01:02:22,880 --> 01:02:26,400
Speaker 1: eliminate pain that works in the very short term, but

1176
01:02:26,480 --> 01:02:28,920
Speaker 1: then creates more pain. And at the beginning of our

1177
01:02:28,960 --> 01:02:31,080
Speaker 1: conversation I talked about o c D in that context.

1178
01:02:31,080 --> 01:02:34,520
Speaker 1: But certainly, let's look at alcohol. An alcoholic when they drink,

1179
01:02:34,560 --> 01:02:36,880
Speaker 1: they often will feel a little bit better, but then

1180
01:02:36,880 --> 01:02:38,760
Speaker 1: they feel worse when it wears off, and they feel

1181
01:02:38,800 --> 01:02:41,400
Speaker 1: worse because the consequences of their drinking are making their life,

1182
01:02:41,440 --> 01:02:44,160
Speaker 1: you know, unsustainable, so what do they do? They drink

1183
01:02:44,200 --> 01:02:47,560
Speaker 1: more So addictions are and I also said earlier I

1184
01:02:47,600 --> 01:02:50,760
Speaker 1: don't like the term mental illness. In some ways, I

1185
01:02:50,840 --> 01:02:55,680
Speaker 1: sometimes wonder if the model of addiction is not the

1186
01:02:55,720 --> 01:03:01,520
Speaker 1: best way to describe all of what we call mental illnesses,

1187
01:03:01,600 --> 01:03:04,240
Speaker 1: if they're not all at some at some level, at

1188
01:03:04,240 --> 01:03:07,320
Speaker 1: some deep levels, some sort of strategy to help us

1189
01:03:07,320 --> 01:03:10,480
Speaker 1: feel better that ultimately makes us feel worse, which in

1190
01:03:10,520 --> 01:03:14,480
Speaker 1: turn drives more of that that that behavior. So in

1191
01:03:14,520 --> 01:03:17,440
Speaker 1: that sense, I absolutely do think viewing o c D

1192
01:03:17,480 --> 01:03:19,400
Speaker 1: as an addiction is a helpful way to look at it.

1193
01:03:19,480 --> 01:03:21,720
Speaker 1: I do see a lot of people with o c

1194
01:03:21,840 --> 01:03:25,760
Speaker 1: D who try to fix themselves, and I think this

1195
01:03:25,880 --> 01:03:28,200
Speaker 1: is because to really get freedom from o c D

1196
01:03:28,360 --> 01:03:31,040
Speaker 1: requires you feeling the feelings you don't want to feel,

1197
01:03:31,040 --> 01:03:33,480
Speaker 1: and that's uncomfortable. So that's what I was trying to do.

1198
01:03:33,920 --> 01:03:35,520
Speaker 1: And if there are people with o c D listening

1199
01:03:35,560 --> 01:03:38,200
Speaker 1: to this, and I imagine there are listen, I could

1200
01:03:38,200 --> 01:03:39,680
Speaker 1: be wrong. But what I can say, and I think

1201
01:03:39,680 --> 01:03:41,200
Speaker 1: I said this at the beginning, is I don't know

1202
01:03:41,240 --> 01:03:42,800
Speaker 1: anyone with o c D who has gotten better on

1203
01:03:42,840 --> 01:03:45,000
Speaker 1: their own. This is a condition that if you have real,

1204
01:03:45,080 --> 01:03:48,160
Speaker 1: full blown o c D. I believe that there is

1205
01:03:48,200 --> 01:03:53,800
Speaker 1: an element of powerlessness and help and support from outside

1206
01:03:54,000 --> 01:03:57,040
Speaker 1: your own brain is essential, and I think calling it

1207
01:03:57,080 --> 01:03:59,880
Speaker 1: an addiction can drive that point home in a way

1208
01:03:59,880 --> 01:04:02,400
Speaker 1: that can hopefully be helpful for some people to hear.

1209
01:04:02,920 --> 01:04:05,680
Speaker 1: I've heard you make the point that comparing mental illness

1210
01:04:05,720 --> 01:04:08,000
Speaker 1: to physical illness or for example, O c D two

1211
01:04:08,000 --> 01:04:11,200
Speaker 1: diabetes is just another illness. On the one hand, it's

1212
01:04:11,200 --> 01:04:14,600
Speaker 1: beneficial in that it can be destigmatizing, but on the

1213
01:04:14,640 --> 01:04:18,200
Speaker 1: other hand, it ignores the existential aspect of struggling with

1214
01:04:18,240 --> 01:04:21,440
Speaker 1: addiction or O c D or things like this. Yeah,

1215
01:04:21,560 --> 01:04:24,160
Speaker 1: that's part of my that's part of my concern with

1216
01:04:24,200 --> 01:04:26,560
Speaker 1: the term mental illness. You some that are perfectly is Yeah,

1217
01:04:26,600 --> 01:04:29,840
Speaker 1: I don't mental illness. I like the fact that it's saying, Okay,

1218
01:04:29,920 --> 01:04:32,560
Speaker 1: this is something that you didn't choose any more than

1219
01:04:32,600 --> 01:04:36,000
Speaker 1: you chose, you know, to to have cancer. It's not

1220
01:04:36,120 --> 01:04:39,120
Speaker 1: something that you know, you should be blamed for. But

1221
01:04:39,200 --> 01:04:41,680
Speaker 1: I don't like the fact that, well, you know that

1222
01:04:41,880 --> 01:04:44,360
Speaker 1: it's really been the drug companies that have propagated this

1223
01:04:44,440 --> 01:04:46,160
Speaker 1: idea that oh, this is, you know, the same way

1224
01:04:46,160 --> 01:04:49,080
Speaker 1: a diabetic takes insulince. Some with depression has low serotonin

1225
01:04:49,080 --> 01:04:51,400
Speaker 1: and needs to take an s s R I. First

1226
01:04:51,400 --> 01:04:53,920
Speaker 1: of all, at a neurochemical level, that's not true. We

1227
01:04:54,080 --> 01:04:56,360
Speaker 1: found that some people with depression seem to have lower

1228
01:04:56,440 --> 01:04:58,440
Speaker 1: than average serotonin, some people seem to have higher than

1229
01:04:58,480 --> 01:05:02,200
Speaker 1: average serotonin. There's never been a clear correlation found with

1230
01:05:02,320 --> 01:05:06,840
Speaker 1: any mental illness and specific neurochemical state, though there are

1231
01:05:06,960 --> 01:05:10,320
Speaker 1: neuro anatomical differences, but whether those are a result or

1232
01:05:10,440 --> 01:05:13,880
Speaker 1: cause as questionable. So that's one thing. But yeah, so

1233
01:05:13,960 --> 01:05:16,120
Speaker 1: much of what we now look at mental illness in

1234
01:05:16,160 --> 01:05:18,640
Speaker 1: other cultures and other times would have been seen as

1235
01:05:19,280 --> 01:05:22,600
Speaker 1: a spiritual malady or spiritual challenge. And I think there

1236
01:05:22,680 --> 01:05:25,800
Speaker 1: can be something beautiful u in looking at it that way,

1237
01:05:25,880 --> 01:05:28,960
Speaker 1: and something empowering, which is that, no, this isn't just

1238
01:05:29,040 --> 01:05:32,760
Speaker 1: some chemicals in your brain going hey wire to me there.

1239
01:05:32,920 --> 01:05:34,920
Speaker 1: I believe there is a narrative around this. There is

1240
01:05:34,960 --> 01:05:37,320
Speaker 1: a story around this, There is a reason, which again

1241
01:05:37,440 --> 01:05:39,040
Speaker 1: is not to say there's blame, it's not to say

1242
01:05:39,040 --> 01:05:42,160
Speaker 1: you're at fault, but that maybe this is one way

1243
01:05:42,200 --> 01:05:46,000
Speaker 1: to put it. I think a diabetic um you know

1244
01:05:46,640 --> 01:05:49,080
Speaker 1: who who's managing diabetes. I don't know if they're going

1245
01:05:49,160 --> 01:05:52,200
Speaker 1: to have a spiritual transformation from that. I don't know

1246
01:05:52,200 --> 01:05:55,400
Speaker 1: if they're going to have an existential epiphany, but I

1247
01:05:55,440 --> 01:05:59,520
Speaker 1: think these mental illnesses do have that potential. There is

1248
01:05:59,560 --> 01:06:03,880
Speaker 1: an opera tunity in mental illness for growth for transformation

1249
01:06:04,400 --> 01:06:07,800
Speaker 1: that I don't think exists with say, diabetes, and I

1250
01:06:07,840 --> 01:06:11,400
Speaker 1: don't want to ignore that. M hm. So I Adam,

1251
01:06:11,440 --> 01:06:13,800
Speaker 1: in addition to doing this show off and on for

1252
01:06:13,840 --> 01:06:17,480
Speaker 1: many years now, you're also started a new show called

1253
01:06:17,680 --> 01:06:22,840
Speaker 1: Adam Strauss Is Not Unhappy by a sort of unscripted commentation.

1254
01:06:22,920 --> 01:06:25,000
Speaker 1: In fact, I'm wondering the last time you and I

1255
01:06:25,000 --> 01:06:27,680
Speaker 1: crawls past, I think was in December and New York

1256
01:06:28,000 --> 01:06:31,320
Speaker 1: at the Horizons conference. And then a friend of our,

1257
01:06:31,440 --> 01:06:34,320
Speaker 1: Sarah Rose cis guy, has this comedy show called drug

1258
01:06:34,360 --> 01:06:37,520
Speaker 1: Test she puts on downtown, and if I recall correctly,

1259
01:06:37,560 --> 01:06:40,120
Speaker 1: maybe you did a little element of that there. But

1260
01:06:40,720 --> 01:06:44,240
Speaker 1: what can you tell us about this new show, why

1261
01:06:44,280 --> 01:06:47,640
Speaker 1: you're doing it, what it's about, what you're trying to accomplish. Yeah,

1262
01:06:47,640 --> 01:06:49,800
Speaker 1: So I'm doing The Mushroom Care every Friday at the

1263
01:06:49,800 --> 01:06:51,760
Speaker 1: March Theater in Berkeley, and I'm doing Adam stress Is

1264
01:06:51,800 --> 01:06:56,680
Speaker 1: Not Unhappy every Saturday, and the reason I structured it

1265
01:06:56,720 --> 01:06:58,200
Speaker 1: that way is I want people to come to The

1266
01:06:58,240 --> 01:07:01,240
Speaker 1: Mushroom Cure who will and want to hopefully come to

1267
01:07:01,400 --> 01:07:04,400
Speaker 1: Adam Stress is not unhappy because it's otherwise a difficult

1268
01:07:04,440 --> 01:07:07,720
Speaker 1: show to market because it is unscripted, and in some

1269
01:07:07,800 --> 01:07:11,360
Speaker 1: way I do have a lot of freedom from o

1270
01:07:11,480 --> 01:07:14,480
Speaker 1: c D. But I'm still someone who i'd say, perhaps

1271
01:07:14,480 --> 01:07:18,520
Speaker 1: more than the average person like certainty, and in a

1272
01:07:18,560 --> 01:07:23,360
Speaker 1: way doing an unscripted show is it's an odd choice

1273
01:07:23,400 --> 01:07:26,960
Speaker 1: because there's radical uncertainty. I'm getting on stage not really

1274
01:07:27,000 --> 01:07:28,880
Speaker 1: knowing what I'm going to say or how it's going

1275
01:07:28,920 --> 01:07:30,800
Speaker 1: to go. I mean, there's an element of improvisation on

1276
01:07:30,840 --> 01:07:35,439
Speaker 1: The Mushroom Cure, but it's it's mostly scripted, and it's

1277
01:07:35,480 --> 01:07:40,720
Speaker 1: this odd thing where I think part of my own

1278
01:07:40,760 --> 01:07:45,800
Speaker 1: path to freedom has been doing the things that feel

1279
01:07:46,200 --> 01:07:49,520
Speaker 1: the scariest. They take me the first furthest outside of

1280
01:07:49,520 --> 01:07:51,800
Speaker 1: my comfort zone, and certainly psychedelics do that. I mean,

1281
01:07:51,800 --> 01:07:55,240
Speaker 1: that's part of why I think psychedelics do have unique

1282
01:07:55,680 --> 01:07:59,000
Speaker 1: promise for o c D is and not micro dosing

1283
01:07:59,120 --> 01:08:01,720
Speaker 1: for me. I think, like do high doses probably have

1284
01:08:01,800 --> 01:08:06,080
Speaker 1: unique promise for O c D because they are in

1285
01:08:06,240 --> 01:08:10,000
Speaker 1: exposure for the root fear that I think underlies all

1286
01:08:10,040 --> 01:08:11,880
Speaker 1: forms of O c D, which is loss of control

1287
01:08:11,920 --> 01:08:14,880
Speaker 1: if you take a large dose of mushrooms. Really, what

1288
01:08:14,920 --> 01:08:18,879
Speaker 1: you're saying is, I'm choosing to let go of control.

1289
01:08:19,040 --> 01:08:20,880
Speaker 1: I'm choosing to do the thing that my O c

1290
01:08:21,000 --> 01:08:24,160
Speaker 1: D least wants me to do. And this Adam stress

1291
01:08:24,200 --> 01:08:27,200
Speaker 1: is not unhappy show is really me doing that on stage,

1292
01:08:27,240 --> 01:08:30,160
Speaker 1: Me going up and saying, Okay, a big part of

1293
01:08:30,160 --> 01:08:33,200
Speaker 1: me wants to have perfect control, but another part of

1294
01:08:33,240 --> 01:08:35,639
Speaker 1: me wants more freedom. So I'm going to go up

1295
01:08:35,800 --> 01:08:38,519
Speaker 1: and see what happens when I just relinquished control to

1296
01:08:38,560 --> 01:08:41,400
Speaker 1: an extent. That's very unusual I think in any sort

1297
01:08:41,400 --> 01:08:46,439
Speaker 1: of live performance. And it's been um At times, it's

1298
01:08:46,439 --> 01:08:50,040
Speaker 1: been pretty magical, you know. I've I've found moments and

1299
01:08:50,080 --> 01:08:52,840
Speaker 1: experiences and shared things on stage that I never would

1300
01:08:52,840 --> 01:08:54,439
Speaker 1: have scripted that I've been I think a lot better

1301
01:08:54,439 --> 01:08:56,320
Speaker 1: than what I could have come up with. At times,

1302
01:08:56,360 --> 01:09:00,360
Speaker 1: it's felt pretty scary, uh, being up are and not

1303
01:09:00,439 --> 01:09:03,040
Speaker 1: quite knowing where I'm going. But there's some part of

1304
01:09:03,040 --> 01:09:07,479
Speaker 1: me that feels this real pull towards these putting myself

1305
01:09:07,520 --> 01:09:12,280
Speaker 1: in these situations that forced me to let go. That

1306
01:09:12,360 --> 01:09:14,799
Speaker 1: forced me that that if I try to hold on tightly,

1307
01:09:15,439 --> 01:09:17,880
Speaker 1: it's it's it's not gonna work. And I would apply

1308
01:09:17,920 --> 01:09:22,680
Speaker 1: that to psychedelics because certainly I had trips where I

1309
01:09:22,720 --> 01:09:26,360
Speaker 1: tried to control and you know, I got I got

1310
01:09:26,360 --> 01:09:29,439
Speaker 1: my ass kicked. Essentially, I had things got really scary,

1311
01:09:29,439 --> 01:09:32,040
Speaker 1: and I learned with psychedelics that Okay, when things are

1312
01:09:32,080 --> 01:09:36,560
Speaker 1: really really intent, when they're really really overwhelming, it's the

1313
01:09:36,800 --> 01:09:38,600
Speaker 1: way is not to hold on tighter. The way is

1314
01:09:38,640 --> 01:09:40,800
Speaker 1: to let go more and listen. It's very easy for

1315
01:09:40,800 --> 01:09:43,000
Speaker 1: me to say this with you right now on this

1316
01:09:43,040 --> 01:09:46,840
Speaker 1: podcast sober. When I'm in that psychedelic space, it's still

1317
01:09:46,880 --> 01:09:48,880
Speaker 1: a scary choice, and it's not when I always make

1318
01:09:48,920 --> 01:09:51,040
Speaker 1: but I am drawn to that choice because I feel

1319
01:09:51,040 --> 01:09:54,240
Speaker 1: like there's there's that's the way freedom lies, and that's

1320
01:09:54,280 --> 01:09:56,720
Speaker 1: that's what I'm going for in this show. Having said that,

1321
01:09:56,840 --> 01:09:58,920
Speaker 1: I also am it is a show. It's not about,

1322
01:09:58,960 --> 01:10:01,760
Speaker 1: you know, my own therapi, So certainly the agenda is

1323
01:10:01,800 --> 01:10:04,360
Speaker 1: also to entertain people and connect with them at a

1324
01:10:04,400 --> 01:10:06,400
Speaker 1: deep level and make them laugh and make them think

1325
01:10:06,400 --> 01:10:09,400
Speaker 1: and make them feel and uh yeah, it's it's something

1326
01:10:09,479 --> 01:10:11,920
Speaker 1: I've very much enjoyed doing. And what about are there

1327
01:10:11,920 --> 01:10:14,720
Speaker 1: other shows out there that get into Remember one time

1328
01:10:14,760 --> 01:10:17,760
Speaker 1: being at one of the MAPS big conferences, and I

1329
01:10:17,800 --> 01:10:20,200
Speaker 1: think they had a whole series of comedians going up

1330
01:10:20,200 --> 01:10:22,599
Speaker 1: there doing some psycholics relevant. Ye right, some of them

1331
01:10:22,600 --> 01:10:25,080
Speaker 1: are actually are pretty good. But are there any other

1332
01:10:25,280 --> 01:10:28,360
Speaker 1: standout comics doing this kind of work, doing about you know,

1333
01:10:28,439 --> 01:10:31,760
Speaker 1: ripping about psychedelics of their own experiences or things like that.

1334
01:10:32,800 --> 01:10:35,599
Speaker 1: Let me be very clear here, Ethan, no no one

1335
01:10:35,640 --> 01:10:37,679
Speaker 1: else doing this is any good. No one should watch

1336
01:10:37,720 --> 01:10:42,800
Speaker 1: anyone else. They all say that they're setting me up. No, yeah,

1337
01:10:42,880 --> 01:10:44,960
Speaker 1: there are. It's you know when I when I was

1338
01:10:45,000 --> 01:10:46,960
Speaker 1: talking about this stuff in two thousand and twelve, there

1339
01:10:46,960 --> 01:10:49,320
Speaker 1: really was no one else. Now there's a handful of people.

1340
01:10:49,360 --> 01:10:51,080
Speaker 1: I'm sure it'll be increasing as more and more people

1341
01:10:51,120 --> 01:10:53,800
Speaker 1: have psycholic experience. But you know, some of my favorites

1342
01:10:54,160 --> 01:10:57,479
Speaker 1: Duncan Trustle, who doesn't do much live performance now but

1343
01:10:57,680 --> 01:10:59,960
Speaker 1: is really brilliant. I mean they showed the Midnight Gospel,

1344
01:11:00,000 --> 01:11:03,600
Speaker 1: which is not uh not overtly psychedelic, but it's just

1345
01:11:03,800 --> 01:11:06,559
Speaker 1: very psychedelic in tone. I mean, Duncan is I think

1346
01:11:06,640 --> 01:11:09,960
Speaker 1: it's I consider Duncan a genius in that he's just

1347
01:11:10,040 --> 01:11:13,240
Speaker 1: pushing boundaries of the forum and someone who the psychedelic

1348
01:11:13,320 --> 01:11:17,320
Speaker 1: experience has I think been transformative and informative his work.

1349
01:11:17,400 --> 01:11:19,800
Speaker 1: So he was at that that maps Comedy Bank. But

1350
01:11:19,800 --> 01:11:22,000
Speaker 1: I think referring to in two thousand seventeen, it was

1351
01:11:22,080 --> 01:11:27,479
Speaker 1: the lineup was him, me Shane Moss, who is also great.

1352
01:11:27,520 --> 01:11:30,080
Speaker 1: He has a show called A Good Trip, which is

1353
01:11:30,120 --> 01:11:35,360
Speaker 1: also great. So he's wonderful. Uh just yeah, funny and sightful, vulnerable,

1354
01:11:35,439 --> 01:11:38,280
Speaker 1: all the stuff. I love. Sarah Rosuskin. She has not

1355
01:11:38,360 --> 01:11:40,400
Speaker 1: a show like a solo show, but she does this

1356
01:11:40,439 --> 01:11:44,800
Speaker 1: thing drug Test in New York, which always is great. Um.

1357
01:11:44,840 --> 01:11:47,080
Speaker 1: And I'm sure there's more people out there who I'm

1358
01:11:47,120 --> 01:11:49,800
Speaker 1: not aware of. So I think it's clear that psychedelics

1359
01:11:49,800 --> 01:11:52,680
Speaker 1: are rapidly becoming a bigger part of the cultural consciousness.

1360
01:11:52,680 --> 01:11:55,839
Speaker 1: And I'm sure that's going to translate to say about

1361
01:11:55,920 --> 01:11:58,519
Speaker 1: you and the Mushroom Cure, is that not only are

1362
01:11:58,520 --> 01:12:01,439
Speaker 1: you doing pretty comedy like well the others, but your

1363
01:12:01,560 --> 01:12:08,240
Speaker 1: thing is simultaneously dramatic and touching and proving to be

1364
01:12:08,360 --> 01:12:11,720
Speaker 1: therapeutic for people who watch it and ultimately, you know,

1365
01:12:11,880 --> 01:12:14,599
Speaker 1: come to some greater insight about what's going on their

1366
01:12:14,640 --> 01:12:16,720
Speaker 1: own lives or people around them, or how they might

1367
01:12:16,760 --> 01:12:19,320
Speaker 1: find their own cure. So with all that in mind,

1368
01:12:19,360 --> 01:12:22,800
Speaker 1: I want to thank you for joining me on Psychoactive

1369
01:12:22,920 --> 01:12:25,680
Speaker 1: and I look forward to crossing paths hopefully soon, and

1370
01:12:25,760 --> 01:12:28,519
Speaker 1: best of luck with both you know, Mushroom Cure as

1371
01:12:28,520 --> 01:12:30,000
Speaker 1: well as with the new show. I hope it all

1372
01:12:30,040 --> 01:12:32,920
Speaker 1: works out really well. Thanks so much, Ethan. Yeah, I

1373
01:12:32,920 --> 01:12:39,280
Speaker 1: really enjoyed chatting with you. If you're enjoying Psychoactive, please

1374
01:12:39,320 --> 01:12:41,519
Speaker 1: tell your friends about it, or you can write us

1375
01:12:41,520 --> 01:12:44,800
Speaker 1: a review at Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

1376
01:12:45,120 --> 01:12:47,559
Speaker 1: We love to hear from our listeners. If you'd like

1377
01:12:47,680 --> 01:12:50,559
Speaker 1: to share your own stories comes to ideas, then leave

1378
01:12:50,640 --> 01:12:54,519
Speaker 1: us a message at one eight three three seven seven

1379
01:12:54,640 --> 01:13:00,559
Speaker 1: nine sixty that's eight three three psycho zero, or you

1380
01:13:00,600 --> 01:13:04,240
Speaker 1: can email us at Psychoactive at protozoa dot com, or

1381
01:13:04,280 --> 01:13:07,479
Speaker 1: find me on Twitter at Ethan Nadelman. You can also

1382
01:13:07,520 --> 01:13:11,519
Speaker 1: find contact information in our show notes. Psychoactive is a

1383
01:13:11,520 --> 01:13:15,360
Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. It's hosted

1384
01:13:15,360 --> 01:13:19,160
Speaker 1: by me Ethan Naedelman. It's produced by Noam Osband and

1385
01:13:19,280 --> 01:13:23,479
Speaker 1: Josh Stain. The Executive producers are Dylan Golden, Ari Handel,

1386
01:13:23,640 --> 01:13:27,839
Speaker 1: Elizabeth Geesus and Darren Aronofsky from Protozoa Pictures, Alex Williams

1387
01:13:27,880 --> 01:13:31,080
Speaker 1: and Matt Frederick from My Heart Radio, and me Ethan Naedelman.

1388
01:13:31,520 --> 01:13:35,360
Speaker 1: Our music is by Ari Blucien and a special thanks

1389
01:13:35,400 --> 01:13:39,160
Speaker 1: to Ab Brio, s f Bianca Grimshaw and Robert bb.

1390
01:13:50,520 --> 01:13:54,160
Speaker 1: Next week I'll be talking with David Simon, co creator

1391
01:13:54,200 --> 01:13:57,120
Speaker 1: of The Wire, who has a new series, We Own

1392
01:13:57,160 --> 01:14:00,760
Speaker 1: This City on HBO. He describes it as a sort

1393
01:14:00,760 --> 01:14:03,760
Speaker 1: of coda to The Wire. When I was covering the

1394
01:14:03,800 --> 01:14:06,519
Speaker 1: department in the late eighties, you know, into the nineties,

1395
01:14:07,240 --> 01:14:09,280
Speaker 1: it's not like every cop was great. You know, there

1396
01:14:09,280 --> 01:14:11,280
Speaker 1: were a lot of guys who were humps and they

1397
01:14:11,439 --> 01:14:12,840
Speaker 1: you know, they couldn't make a case save their lives.

1398
01:14:12,880 --> 01:14:14,640
Speaker 1: But they were usually in squads with one or two

1399
01:14:14,720 --> 01:14:17,280
Speaker 1: guys who knew how to get a case through the courthouse.

1400
01:14:17,640 --> 01:14:19,680
Speaker 1: They had the skill set. I mean, you need to

1401
01:14:20,200 --> 01:14:22,759
Speaker 1: know how to work informants and not be worked by informants.

1402
01:14:22,760 --> 01:14:24,360
Speaker 1: You need to know how to testify in court without

1403
01:14:24,360 --> 01:14:25,680
Speaker 1: purguring yourself. You need to know how to write a

1404
01:14:25,720 --> 01:14:27,400
Speaker 1: search and seizure warrnt. You need to know how to

1405
01:14:28,000 --> 01:14:31,800
Speaker 1: use various forensic tools that that that don't have any

1406
01:14:31,880 --> 01:14:35,559
Speaker 1: relation to the drug war, that are basically skill sets

1407
01:14:35,640 --> 01:14:40,040
Speaker 1: that don't have anything to do with drug prohibition. And

1408
01:14:40,080 --> 01:14:42,400
Speaker 1: those things died. They died on the vine that the

1409
01:14:42,479 --> 01:14:45,479
Speaker 1: drug war taught everybody how to not do police working

1410
01:14:45,520 --> 01:14:49,200
Speaker 1: made for stupid generations of cops. And then those generations,

1411
01:14:49,520 --> 01:14:51,799
Speaker 1: those those guys are now the colonels and the majors.

1412
01:14:51,840 --> 01:14:55,479
Speaker 1: They're teaching the lieutenants the wrong metrics, and the lieutenants

1413
01:14:55,479 --> 01:14:57,639
Speaker 1: are teaching the guys on the street the wrong metrics.

1414
01:14:57,640 --> 01:15:00,400
Speaker 1: And the only thing that it cost us was police

1415
01:15:00,400 --> 01:15:03,679
Speaker 1: work in America. Subscribe to Cycoactive now, see it, don't

1416
01:15:03,720 --> 01:15:04,000
Speaker 1: miss it.