1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,640 Speaker 1: This episode includes mentions of sex trafficking, sex crimes against minors, 2 00:00:03,640 --> 00:00:10,600 Speaker 1: and convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein. There Are No Girls 3 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:13,680 Speaker 1: on the Internet as a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. 4 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:20,119 Speaker 1: I'm Bridget Todd and this is There Are No Girls 5 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:21,120 Speaker 1: on the Internet. 6 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:23,799 Speaker 2: Right now. 7 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:26,640 Speaker 1: One of the biggest questions making the rounds is what 8 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 1: exactly is Donald Trump's connection to Jeffrey Epstein. We recently 9 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:33,479 Speaker 1: broke down why those questions still linger and what they 10 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 1: might mean in a recent episode of the show, which 11 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:37,920 Speaker 1: will put in the show notes. But Trump is not 12 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:42,120 Speaker 1: the only powerful figure with ties to Epstein. In fact, 13 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 1: one of the very first episodes we ever did on 14 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet was a conversation 15 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 1: with Kenyan technologist Autowa Umboya. Back then, Audiba was a 16 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:55,200 Speaker 1: grad student at MIT's influential Media Lab and became one 17 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:57,960 Speaker 1: of the first people to publicly call out her own 18 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:02,000 Speaker 1: university's connections to Epstein, ultimately calling for the resignation of 19 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 1: the lab's director over it. It was one of the 20 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:07,280 Speaker 1: stories that initially inspired me to start this podcast in 21 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 1: the first place. You know, here was this brave student 22 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:12,840 Speaker 1: speaking up about what she knew to be wrong in 23 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 1: her own tech community, and instead of support, she faced 24 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:18,399 Speaker 1: a tax for it. And I guess that's tale as 25 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:21,959 Speaker 1: old as time, the cost of being right. So today 26 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:30,640 Speaker 1: we're revisiting that important conversation you've probably heard about American 27 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:34,960 Speaker 1: financier Jeffrey Epstein. Epstein pled guilty and was convicted in 28 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 1: two thousand and eight of procuring an underage girl for sex. 29 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:40,399 Speaker 1: In July of last year, he was arrested on charges 30 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 1: of sex trafficking and conspiracy to engage in sex trafficking. 31 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:46,480 Speaker 1: He was found dead in prison in August. In addition 32 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 1: to his connection to powerful political figures like Bill Clinton, 33 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 1: Queen Elizabeth's son Prince Andrew, and incredibly accused rapist President 34 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 1: Donald Trump, Epstein also had deep connections to the tech 35 00:01:56,720 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 1: world despite being a convicted sex offender. On September seventh, 36 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 1: Ronan Faroh published an expos in The New Yorker that 37 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 1: found that the Massachusetts Institute of Technology or MIT, had 38 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 1: a deeper fundraising relationship with Epstein that it had previously acknowledged, 39 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:13,800 Speaker 1: even as officials knew he was a convicted sex offender, 40 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 1: and that the university went to great lengths to cover 41 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:19,320 Speaker 1: it up. Now, here's just some of what Pharaoh found. 42 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:23,240 Speaker 1: Even though Epstein was disqualified a MIT's official donor database, 43 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 1: the Media Lab continued to accept money from him, consulted 44 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 1: him about the use of funds, and, by marking his 45 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:33,359 Speaker 1: contributions as anonymous, avoided disclosing their full extent, both publicly 46 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 1: and within the university. Epstein appeared to act as a 47 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:38,640 Speaker 1: go between for wealthy donors like Bill Gates to pump 48 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 1: money into MIT. According to Pharaoh, MIT's efforts to conceal 49 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:45,480 Speaker 1: Epstein's connections to the university went so far that staff 50 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 1: referred to Epstein as Voldemort or he who must not 51 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 1: be named. Whistleblower Sidney Swinson, a former MIT development associate, 52 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 1: told Pharaoh that the lab's leadership made it explicit even 53 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 1: in her earliest days with them, that Epstein's donations had 54 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:02,720 Speaker 1: to be kept secret. Staffers knew about MIT's relationship with Epstein. 55 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 1: Prominent faculty adviser Ethan Zuckerman resigned in protest after Pharaoh's 56 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:11,760 Speaker 1: piece was published. Joy Eto, the director of the MIT 57 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 1: Media Lab, resigned in. 58 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 3: The latest fallout connected to Jeffrey Epstein. MIT is opening 59 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:19,519 Speaker 3: an investigation into its ties to the financier and convicted 60 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 3: sex offender. The announcement came just one day after The 61 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:25,400 Speaker 3: New Yorker revealed that MIT's Media Lab was attempting to 62 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:27,040 Speaker 3: conceal donations from Epstein. 63 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:34,240 Speaker 1: Now there's a lot to say about Jeffrey Epstein, but 64 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 1: this story isn't really about him. It's about courage, community, 65 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 1: and power. We hear a lot about Epstein's horrific crimes, 66 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:45,040 Speaker 1: and most people credit Ronan Faroh with bringing their full 67 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 1: scope to light. But even before Ronan Pharaoh's piece was published, 68 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 1: women in the MIT community spoke up, and we should 69 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 1: honor their voices too. 70 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:58,160 Speaker 4: To the Future, MIT's Media Lab a place that follows 71 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 4: crazy ideas, where they may le. 72 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 2: We get to think about the future. What does the 73 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 2: world look like ten years, twenty years, thirty is what should. 74 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 1: It look like? The MIT Media Lab is an important place. 75 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 1: CBS even dubbed it the future Factory, and it's where technologists. 76 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:17,280 Speaker 2: Ottawa Mboya knew she had to be. 77 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:21,919 Speaker 4: Yeah, I came here because it is sort of a 78 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 4: place for misfits. 79 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:23,720 Speaker 2: The Media Lab. 80 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 4: It is intodisciplinary and has sort of the intersection of 81 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:32,479 Speaker 4: tech and art and design and that was what I 82 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:36,280 Speaker 4: was looking for. When I graduated from undergrad I worked 83 00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:38,160 Speaker 4: for a couple of years back in Airobi, where I'm from, 84 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 4: and became a VR developer. 85 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:45,720 Speaker 2: On the side on top of my job and needed. 86 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:48,280 Speaker 4: To I was sort of like looking for somewhere to 87 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 4: find myself and had heard about the Media Lab and 88 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 4: how sort of civic minded. One of the groups was 89 00:04:55,720 --> 00:05:00,120 Speaker 4: called Civic Media and our motto is a tech for 90 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:02,640 Speaker 4: social change, and I was like, well, that sounds like 91 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 4: exactly what I want to do. 92 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:06,599 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I applied and then it worked out. 93 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 1: Ottawa was raised and shaped by a community of strong, 94 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 1: resilient women, and that upbringing has been a big part 95 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 1: of how she shows up to the world today. 96 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:14,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. 97 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 4: I mean my work is always about women, and it's 98 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 4: always about It's always about. 99 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:23,120 Speaker 2: Women in Africa. Sometimes it's a bit more general than that. 100 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 4: But I have worked in Nairobi my whole life. I've 101 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:31,839 Speaker 4: studied away from Nairobi, but always try to bring back 102 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:35,920 Speaker 4: my research and the questions that I'm asking to home 103 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:39,919 Speaker 4: and the woman that I've worked with in informal sentiments 104 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 4: in Kenya. But you know, that's just my research. But 105 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:46,040 Speaker 4: how I approach studying and how I approach being in 106 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:50,720 Speaker 4: big institutions is definitely sort of inspired by how I 107 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 4: was raised. 108 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 2: By my mom and my grandma, and I have like. 109 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:57,359 Speaker 4: A thousand aunts. Grew up in something of a matriarchy, 110 00:05:57,400 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 4: I would say so. Yeah, for sure. 111 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:02,799 Speaker 1: You were raised in like a community of strong, badass women. 112 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:06,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, and like really scary ones too, so like you 113 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:08,479 Speaker 4: look at them with a lot of love and admiration 114 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:09,559 Speaker 4: but also a lot of fear. 115 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:13,720 Speaker 1: Audible works with virtual reality, so that means she has 116 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:15,720 Speaker 1: to be able to imagine worlds that haven't even been 117 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:18,919 Speaker 1: seen yet. It's a spirit that drives her both personally 118 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 1: and professionally. Do you think that that sort of work 119 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:26,279 Speaker 1: has helped you kind of imagine a future where things 120 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:27,360 Speaker 1: can be better than they are? 121 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think so, I would say so. I think 122 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:33,720 Speaker 4: I've always sort of had that in me before I 123 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 4: started playing on VR and AI, and I think those 124 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 4: projects are sort of things that are already within me 125 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:42,560 Speaker 4: as opposed to things that have made me think a 126 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:46,240 Speaker 4: certain way. And I don't know, I grew up just 127 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:49,239 Speaker 4: reading and listening to a lot of amazing women and men. Actually, 128 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 4: my grand both my grandpas are fantastic men and have 129 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 4: been so influential in shaping Kenya and imagining Kenya differently. 130 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:03,039 Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say it's totally in me. 131 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 4: And you know, when I wrote that, it wasn't even 132 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 4: so much that I was so when I was sort 133 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:12,080 Speaker 4: of talking against my director. It wasn't even so much 134 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 4: that I was imagining a different future. It was more 135 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 4: like this current present is something is off, something is 136 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:21,960 Speaker 4: not right. And everything I've been taught since growing up 137 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 4: is if something's not right, you fix it or you 138 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 4: say something about it, but you don't sit around and 139 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 4: do nothing. 140 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:30,679 Speaker 1: As a grad student in the Media Lab, Ottawa published 141 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 1: a piece in the Tech MIT Student publication about the 142 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 1: university's connection to Jeffrey Epstein. In it, she called for 143 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 1: the resignation of Joy Eto, the head of the MIT 144 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 1: Media Lab. Her piece ran weeks before Ronan Pharaoh would 145 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 1: go on to echo her points in his New Yorker 146 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 1: expose on September seventh. The only difference is Ottawa called 147 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:51,240 Speaker 1: for Eto to resign, and after Pharaoh's piece was published, 148 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:54,160 Speaker 1: he actually did did you ever feel like people have 149 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 1: an easier time taking this situation seriously when it's reported 150 00:07:57,600 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 1: by a white man, I mean. 151 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. 152 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:04,280 Speaker 4: And I appreciate Ronan Pharaoh's work a lot, and we 153 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 4: actually got to meet him and we kind of talked 154 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 4: about this. But you know, Senior Swenson, she was the 155 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:12,240 Speaker 4: real hero of the story. I mean, she was the 156 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:15,240 Speaker 4: actual whistle blower. And sometimes people treat me like I 157 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 4: was a whistle blower when I didn't whistle blow anything. 158 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 4: I just have the same information that everybody else had 159 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 4: and sort of said my opinion about it. And for sure, 160 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 4: I mean, even on the comments on my article, like 161 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 4: there were so many comments I had to do with 162 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 4: my race and ethnicity and where I'm from, as opposed 163 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:36,720 Speaker 4: to you know, not agreeing with me and my ideas. 164 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 4: It was very much like, well, you're not from America, 165 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 4: you don't know what we're talking about. And then Ronan 166 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 4: Pharaoh writes this article, and of course everyone just jumped ship. 167 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 4: And you know, I totally understood my director resigning after that. 168 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:54,719 Speaker 4: I was just more shocked of how many people said, oh, 169 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:59,080 Speaker 4: we were wrong after the article, because to me, it's 170 00:08:59,160 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 4: kind of like we are. 171 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:00,560 Speaker 2: He had that. 172 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:05,240 Speaker 4: Information beforehand, and people had made up those decisions, their 173 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 4: decisions to support him at that point, and it's only 174 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 4: when a powerful and not just white man, they're a 175 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:14,480 Speaker 4: powerful white man writes about it that it's enough to 176 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 4: sort of swaye people's opinions or feelings, or at least 177 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:18,240 Speaker 4: their vocal ones. 178 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:20,560 Speaker 1: So I heard an NPR interview where you described your 179 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:23,600 Speaker 1: meeting with Edo, where he basically said, I agree with 180 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 1: all the things that you're saying, all the things that 181 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 1: you say. 182 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:26,200 Speaker 2: I did. 183 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 5: I totally did. 184 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:30,320 Speaker 1: You're completely right, except I don't think I should lose 185 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 1: my job over it. 186 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 4: Yeah, And there were a lot of people who felt 187 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:35,720 Speaker 4: that way, and a lot of people still feel that 188 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 4: way because he kind of was the heart of the 189 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:41,559 Speaker 4: Media Lab and a lot of people dependent on him 190 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 4: for their projects, for funding, for you know, other people 191 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 4: were coming into the Media Lab for the first time 192 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:52,079 Speaker 4: under his leadership. So it makes sense that some people 193 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 4: feel that way. I think the Ronan Pharaoh thing was 194 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:02,079 Speaker 4: interesting because we had that conversation one afternoon, and then 195 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 4: it was that same afternoon that Ronan Farrah's article dropped, 196 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 4: So he between our meeting and him resigning was maybe 197 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:13,000 Speaker 4: four to five hours, like really not much. Yeah, so 198 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 4: you know, it was overall like really shocking, but to 199 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 4: me that's again a power thing. It's totally different situation 200 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 4: if one first year massive student who you know has 201 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 4: no power whatsoever, says you should resign, and it's a 202 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 4: totally different thing. If Ronan Pharaoh comes after you and 203 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 4: he has a lot of mistake. It's not just his 204 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 4: job at the media leve. He has a lot of 205 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 4: venture capital and a lot of other endeavors that I 206 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 4: think must have been in his head to protect. But yeah, 207 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:45,319 Speaker 4: I mean, I don't know what it was that made 208 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:47,080 Speaker 4: him cave in at that moment. 209 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:49,720 Speaker 1: It's easy to think about marginalized people who speak up 210 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:53,280 Speaker 1: in these situations as being fearless, but Ottawa actually remembers 211 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:57,120 Speaker 1: being pretty scared and doing it anyway. She drew strength 212 00:10:57,200 --> 00:10:59,720 Speaker 1: from the courage of other women and girls on the continent. 213 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 4: The fear I was feeling was actually from my mom 214 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:08,200 Speaker 4: because she didn't want me to write the article and 215 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 4: I don't like disagreeing with my mom that we just 216 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:13,079 Speaker 4: did on this particular issue. And she was coming from 217 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 4: a perspective of fear or trying to take care of 218 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:17,840 Speaker 4: her baby that she was sent to America to study, 219 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:21,679 Speaker 4: like you know that she was scared that something might 220 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:23,880 Speaker 4: happen to my degree, or that I might lose my 221 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 4: visa or something and not be able to finish. 222 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:29,200 Speaker 2: But I don't know. I didn't have that fear so much. 223 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 4: And I had just happened to be reading a really 224 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:36,200 Speaker 4: amazing book called Beneath the tamer And Tree, which is 225 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:40,959 Speaker 4: by Isshus to say of CNN about the Baccoharan bring 226 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:45,679 Speaker 4: Back our Girls story in Nigeria, and then amount of 227 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:50,680 Speaker 4: courage there was so wild that it just so happened 228 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:52,440 Speaker 4: that this is all happening at the same time, and 229 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 4: I'm seeing myself as such a small player and seeing 230 00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:58,079 Speaker 4: the thing that I want to do is not that 231 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:01,440 Speaker 4: big compared to some of the things that these girls 232 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:03,600 Speaker 4: went through and some of the things that they fought 233 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:06,559 Speaker 4: for against literal terrorists. 234 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:09,440 Speaker 2: And I was like, Okay, if they have this. 235 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:12,080 Speaker 4: Kind of courage to stand with a gun to their 236 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:14,679 Speaker 4: face and not change their religion because it's what they 237 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:18,920 Speaker 4: believe in, then if I believe in this thing, you know, 238 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:22,680 Speaker 4: the least I can do is say it with my chest, 239 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:26,440 Speaker 4: you know. So that was how I was feeling. So 240 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:29,679 Speaker 4: I was actually feeling like kind of empowered and inspired 241 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:32,640 Speaker 4: while I was writing it. I sometimes describe myself as 242 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 4: a radical feminist, but there's nothing. 243 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 2: Radical about it. 244 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:39,080 Speaker 4: It's just that the word feminists sometimes seems radical to people. 245 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:43,000 Speaker 4: But I just am a product of so many amazing 246 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 4: women that it's not shocking that I search for even 247 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 4: more inspiration from other women on the continent or on 248 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:50,560 Speaker 4: the world. 249 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:55,560 Speaker 1: After her letter calling for Eto to resign was published, 250 00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:58,640 Speaker 1: things got rough for Ottawa. So what was the climate 251 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:01,319 Speaker 1: like for you at MIT? Do you publish your piece. 252 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:04,920 Speaker 2: Whom it sucked? 253 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 4: I mean, the very next day or the day after 254 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:11,760 Speaker 4: I published this article, like a website comes out saying 255 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:16,600 Speaker 4: resupport to retail and it's signed by like, you know, 256 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:19,840 Speaker 4: pretty much like every professor at the Media Lab, and 257 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:22,839 Speaker 4: it's signed by all, you know, my colleagues and all 258 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:26,680 Speaker 4: these people, and it's a direct response to my one article. 259 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 4: And so you know, it wasn't nice. I was getting, 260 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:31,480 Speaker 4: you know, some not nice comments, but I was able 261 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:35,160 Speaker 4: to ignore most of them and feel okay. But it 262 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 4: really highlighted to me how fearful people can get when 263 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:41,880 Speaker 4: you speak the truth or when you say your own truth. 264 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 4: Because for me, a whole website springing up was like 265 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:50,120 Speaker 4: it's signed with all these hundreds of names just because 266 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:56,439 Speaker 4: one student wrote an article is shocking to me, and 267 00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:58,719 Speaker 4: that student has no power. Like I don't know why 268 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 4: there was so much fear, so much anger, so much 269 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:06,440 Speaker 4: defense because nobody else. There was lots of articles about it. 270 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 4: There was lots of articles that were very non partisan 271 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:13,360 Speaker 4: and saying what happened, but nobody asked for him to 272 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 4: be resigned, to resign except me. And it's almost as 273 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 4: if like that one statement or that one article, like 274 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 4: it was like away through the media lab and everyone 275 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 4: was like pushing back, as if what I said might 276 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 4: sort of break the whole media lab or make it 277 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 4: fall apart, and some people till today, I think it's 278 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 4: my fault, like for sure, and you know, there's nothing 279 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:39,080 Speaker 4: I can do about that, and I'm not going. 280 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 2: To sort of try to pander to those people. But 281 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 2: I don't know. It just showed me. It really taught 282 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 2: me the power of words. 283 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:54,920 Speaker 1: We'll be right back after this quick break, and we're 284 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:59,480 Speaker 1: back by establishing financial relationships with respected organizations like mit 285 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 1: Epstein got powerful people, mostly men, to provide cover, protection 286 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:09,160 Speaker 1: and most importantly, reputational redemption. Once you've got the protection 287 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 1: of that kind of power, it can be hard to 288 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 1: penetrate power. Powerful friends, powerful names, powerful money. All of 289 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 1: it makes it harder for people who exist outside of 290 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 1: that power to speak out about bad behavior. Why do 291 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:26,680 Speaker 1: you think the media lab overlooked Epstein's crimes? Do you 292 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:28,560 Speaker 1: think it was just the money and they didn't care 293 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 1: where it came from, or do you think it was 294 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 1: something else. 295 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:34,440 Speaker 4: I know that some people knew and some people didn't know, 296 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 4: so I can really only speak for the person that 297 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:41,280 Speaker 4: I know for sure knew, which is Joey, and the 298 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 4: rest I don't know. And you know, he wielded a 299 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 4: lot of power in this lab. We do know for 300 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 4: a fact that there were people who who including my 301 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:53,920 Speaker 4: advisor Ethan Zuckermann, who spoke out and said that this 302 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:56,560 Speaker 4: was not a good idea and said that we shouldn't 303 00:15:56,560 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 4: take money from Epstein, and they were ignored. The hardcore 304 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 4: truth is that money is power, and there is a 305 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:13,440 Speaker 4: massive incentive to ignore certain problems or ethics if you're 306 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:16,760 Speaker 4: going to get power by ignoring them. I think the 307 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:19,120 Speaker 4: other thing to remember with the Epstein situation is that 308 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 4: he wasn't giving the media that much money anyway. I 309 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:26,480 Speaker 4: think a lot of the money that was an MIT 310 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:29,240 Speaker 4: report just came out on the funding issue, and we 311 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:31,240 Speaker 4: found out that Joey was actually trying to secure much 312 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 4: bigger part of funding for his own venture capital funds, 313 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 4: so huge incentive to ignore what was sort of on 314 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 4: the surface. And then the other thing is just I 315 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 4: don't think men get it all the time, like I 316 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:52,520 Speaker 4: don't think I sometimes I really think that some people 317 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 4: thought that it's just not that big a deal because 318 00:16:55,400 --> 00:17:00,240 Speaker 4: they have no understanding on what that relationship even in 319 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 4: and off itself, but without money means for the victims 320 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:06,639 Speaker 4: of Epstein's we have no idea how this consolidation of 321 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 4: power represses the victims and silences them. 322 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:13,399 Speaker 1: It only sounds like Epstein was trying to use his 323 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:15,680 Speaker 1: money to kind of create this cover so that if 324 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 1: anybody ever tried to call him out on his actions, 325 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 1: he could just be like, oh, well, look at all 326 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:22,520 Speaker 1: these powerful influential men I surround myself with. 327 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:27,240 Speaker 4: In some ways was really smart because he didn't actually 328 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:30,159 Speaker 4: have that much money. He wasn't a Bill Gates, but 329 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:33,639 Speaker 4: had enough to sort of know the right people and 330 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:40,840 Speaker 4: actually build a social circle around himself that included politicians, scientists, artists, businessmen, 331 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:47,359 Speaker 4: and it was so strong that everybody wanted to be 332 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:50,960 Speaker 4: a part of it, and it was Epstein's name that 333 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:53,040 Speaker 4: you had to know to get sort of in that circle. 334 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:57,199 Speaker 1: Ottawa still thinks highly of MIT, but the backlash she 335 00:17:57,280 --> 00:17:59,960 Speaker 1: faced for speaking out against joy Eto showed her that 336 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 1: things are not always as shiny as they look from 337 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 1: the outside. 338 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:06,200 Speaker 4: And I think the media of you know, it's hard 339 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:09,040 Speaker 4: because I love this place, like I've had a fantastic 340 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:12,400 Speaker 4: two years. I've learned so much, I've grown so much, 341 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 4: and I wouldn't change it for anything, But I think 342 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 4: this experience has just been such an example of that. 343 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:23,159 Speaker 4: Because it's so shiny on the outside, like it's so glamorous, 344 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:27,600 Speaker 4: everyone wants to be here. But that doesn't that doesn't 345 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:30,480 Speaker 4: mean that we don't have issues, institutional issues of power 346 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 4: and race and class and all these other things that 347 00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:36,040 Speaker 4: might make the place sound not so amazing. 348 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:38,520 Speaker 1: Do you think that there should be more scrutiny on 349 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:41,680 Speaker 1: other powerful men who had like financial entanglements with Epstein. 350 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 1: I feel like a lot of them have sort of 351 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:48,119 Speaker 1: been able to skirt public scrutiny and like public question 352 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:51,400 Speaker 1: asking about what exactly their dealings with this person were. 353 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:54,359 Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah, I think. 354 00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 4: You know from the out I mean, because I can't 355 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 4: speak for much more than MIT, but I know, you know, 356 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:03,640 Speaker 4: even Harvard had relations with took a lot of money 357 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:06,240 Speaker 4: from Epstein, but they just declined to even talk about it, 358 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:10,200 Speaker 4: and so it just they sort of took the mom 359 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:15,199 Speaker 4: path and everyone forgot about it, whereas at amit it 360 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:20,199 Speaker 4: was so widely talked about. And Epstein's network is so 361 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 4: extensive that going through every single man who interacted with him, 362 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:30,200 Speaker 4: or a woman for that matter, actually who interacted with 363 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:31,920 Speaker 4: him and took money from him, and what they knew 364 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 4: and how they knew it is extremely difficult. So I 365 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:39,680 Speaker 4: don't know how to do that. But there should be 366 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:45,119 Speaker 4: a way larger conversation around these networks of power, whether 367 00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:48,800 Speaker 4: we isolate individuals within them or not. And I think 368 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:50,680 Speaker 4: that also has a lot to do with who's willing 369 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:54,119 Speaker 4: to speak, who's willing to come forward with information, because 370 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:56,879 Speaker 4: the last way, you know, when we don't know anything, 371 00:19:56,880 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 4: all we can do is speculate, and they have power, 372 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:02,199 Speaker 4: and that doesn't really work. So yeah, I don't know. 373 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:04,399 Speaker 4: I feel like everyone should be all accountable, for sure, 374 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:08,800 Speaker 4: but it's I don't even know where you start with Epstein. 375 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 1: You know, I almost wonder if this is part of 376 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:13,480 Speaker 1: the deliberate strategy of Epstein's getting his money in so 377 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 1: many powerful places and hands and institutions that untangling it 378 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:18,399 Speaker 1: almost seems kind of impossible. 379 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:22,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, And I'm a firm belief of nothing as impossible. 380 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:25,680 Speaker 4: But you know, there's such a close link. And I'm 381 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:28,040 Speaker 4: not saying that anyone who took his money did anything 382 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 4: more than that, but there is, you know, especially with 383 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:34,159 Speaker 4: the people who are closer with him, there is a 384 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 4: link with those people and victims, you know. And I 385 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 4: think right now what needs to happen is that the victims' 386 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:43,879 Speaker 4: narratives need to be centered, you know, and the people 387 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 4: who have been hurt by Epstein need to have space 388 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:49,160 Speaker 4: to say, you know, this is how it was hurt, 389 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:51,720 Speaker 4: this is a feeling, this is what I need to 390 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:54,359 Speaker 4: recover and sort of if they feel up for it, 391 00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:55,920 Speaker 4: these are the people who hurt me. 392 00:20:56,520 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 1: Beyond Epstein, it's hard to admit that people and institute 393 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:03,640 Speaker 1: that mean a lot to us are actually fostering abusive behavior. 394 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 1: Joey was a beloved figure at MIT, and that made 395 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 1: it that much harder for the community to reckon with 396 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 1: the fact that he enabled, benefited from, and covered up 397 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:13,480 Speaker 1: for an abuser. 398 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 4: Joey himself was a figure of so much awe and 399 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:25,200 Speaker 4: inspiration and resource to the media, lab, students, and faculty 400 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 4: that people didn't want to believe that, you know, he 401 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:32,159 Speaker 4: had done this thing that they didn't agree with, And 402 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:34,440 Speaker 4: it was much easier if we just said, okay, Asha, 403 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:36,280 Speaker 4: let's sweep it under the rug and move on and 404 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:39,040 Speaker 4: pretend like this never happened. And so I understand that 405 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:43,199 Speaker 4: to some degree. But you know, the world is like 406 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 4: constantly changing, and I think if you're sort of always 407 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:49,360 Speaker 4: that person on the bottom of the ladder in certain societies, 408 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:52,280 Speaker 4: like it's always it always comes from the bottom up, 409 00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:55,919 Speaker 4: like it's always that change and institution is never going 410 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:58,920 Speaker 4: to happen by the people who for who the institution 411 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:03,399 Speaker 4: is working, and the media was working for me, it 412 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:05,240 Speaker 4: wasn't you know, I was having a great time, but 413 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 4: I didn't have the same feelings about the director that 414 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:14,920 Speaker 4: most of my naysay has had. You know, I wasn't 415 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:17,480 Speaker 4: actually giving up I don't know, funding for a specific 416 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 4: project by calling him out, So in other ways it 417 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 4: was easier for me than I you know, I get 418 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:26,480 Speaker 4: why it was easier for me than other people. But 419 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:30,320 Speaker 4: for a place that calls itself the future factory, for 420 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 4: a place that prides itself in imagining and creating the 421 00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 4: future literally, like, the standard has got to be higher, 422 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:41,320 Speaker 4: and it's got to be higher, not from a tech perspective, 423 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 4: but from a human perspective too. 424 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:45,359 Speaker 6: And so this is where it starts to look like 425 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 6: the Academy Awards. So first I want to invite up 426 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:51,480 Speaker 6: the winners of the two hundred and fifty thousand dollars 427 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:55,960 Speaker 6: Disobedience Award, the second largest cast prize at MIT, I 428 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:59,439 Speaker 6: would say, after the Levelson Award for Innovation. So Tyranna 429 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:02,520 Speaker 6: Burg and Sherry Marts and Beth M mclough and purs 430 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 6: come up with this award, we are recognizing their leadership 431 00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:11,359 Speaker 6: and dedication in amplifying the voices of survivors of sexual 432 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 6: violence and harassment, fom manning positive change towards gender equality, 433 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:18,400 Speaker 6: and demonstrating defiance in the face of oppression and apathy. 434 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 6: Thank you very much. 435 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:24,240 Speaker 1: In twenty seventeen, MIT started the Disobedience Award, a yearly 436 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:26,840 Speaker 1: award given to people in tech who speak truth to power. 437 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 1: The award came with a two hundred and fifty thousand 438 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:32,960 Speaker 1: dollars No Strings Attached prize. In twenty eighteen, it was 439 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:36,399 Speaker 1: awarded to me Too creator Toronto Burke, Beth Ann McLaughlin 440 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,639 Speaker 1: and Shara mart as representatives of me Too and the 441 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:42,560 Speaker 1: METO and STEM movement that highlighted people speaking up against 442 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:45,920 Speaker 1: sexual harassment in technology. The physical award is a glass 443 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:49,920 Speaker 1: orb and in a particularly disgusting piece of irony because 444 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:53,439 Speaker 1: of his financial contributions to MIT, convicted sex offender and 445 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:56,760 Speaker 1: serial predator Epstein received a replica of that very award 446 00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 1: that same year. 447 00:23:57,560 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 2: Two. 448 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:01,880 Speaker 1: I know you're in fere now, but this is where 449 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:04,639 Speaker 1: the story gets a little bit brighter. My friend Sabrina 450 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:06,480 Speaker 1: hersy Lisa, is the kind of person I hope that 451 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:09,760 Speaker 1: you all have in your lives. Mentor doesn't really cover 452 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 1: just how impactful she's been in my own life. She's 453 00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:15,200 Speaker 1: a human rights technologist and the founder of b Bold Media, 454 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:18,320 Speaker 1: and Sabrina has never stopped uplifting other women or speaking 455 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 1: truth to power, even when she gets shipped for it. 456 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:24,360 Speaker 1: Sabrina had never spoken to Ottawa, but she did read 457 00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 1: her story. 458 00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:27,960 Speaker 7: A friend of mine sent me a link to Ottawa's 459 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:32,760 Speaker 7: off ed in the MIT student newspaper, and when I 460 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:35,320 Speaker 7: read it, I thought it was so At first, I 461 00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:38,639 Speaker 7: thought this was so beautifully written, and it was written 462 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:43,679 Speaker 7: from a place of love and in leadership, and from 463 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:46,440 Speaker 7: clearly this was a voice of someone who cares deeply 464 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 7: not just for women and children, but also for a community. 465 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:54,919 Speaker 5: Then I saw the arc of how her off. 466 00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:58,399 Speaker 7: Ed was being received in MIT community and in the 467 00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 7: broader technology community, and that is when things started to 468 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:05,199 Speaker 7: not sit well with me in our in bridget our 469 00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:09,080 Speaker 7: share of women in technology community. I saw Ottawa's ap 470 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:13,320 Speaker 7: ed being received as like, this is a great call 471 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:16,800 Speaker 7: for a student, but it also I saw a lot 472 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 7: of echoing of helplessness from very powerful women in technology, 473 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:25,160 Speaker 7: and a lot of ringing of hands and a lot 474 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:26,600 Speaker 7: of oh what do we do now? 475 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:27,760 Speaker 5: Or I feel hopeless? 476 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 7: And when I read Ottawa's op ed, I felt the 477 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:32,320 Speaker 7: opposite of hopeless. 478 00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:33,080 Speaker 5: I felt hope. 479 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:37,200 Speaker 7: I felt Oh, if this is what someone could say 480 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:39,960 Speaker 7: with so much to lose and so much on the line, 481 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:44,120 Speaker 7: then anything as possible. And then I saw it absorbed 482 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:49,439 Speaker 7: in the broader public conversation around Epstein and MIT, and 483 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:55,639 Speaker 7: I saw Ottawa's being demonized and being framed at her 484 00:25:56,320 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 7: I saw Ottawa's public leadership being framed as a problem 485 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:03,360 Speaker 7: instead of a blessing. 486 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:06,720 Speaker 5: And I was not okay watching that. 487 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:09,439 Speaker 7: I saw you know, Reddit forums where people were like, 488 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:11,720 Speaker 7: if she doesn't like it, she can go back to Africa. 489 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:14,840 Speaker 7: I saw a lot of hate being seen on Twitter. 490 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:19,560 Speaker 7: I saw so like the further the rings of influence 491 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:23,639 Speaker 7: went out, the more I saw this woman's brave call 492 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:28,440 Speaker 7: of public leadership being received, how most black women who 493 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:34,360 Speaker 7: are moral, who practice moral courage in public spaces being received. 494 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:36,040 Speaker 5: And I was not okay with that. 495 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:40,960 Speaker 7: And you know me, and you know I walked through 496 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:45,439 Speaker 7: fires in the past where that was the arc that 497 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:48,400 Speaker 7: played out, and I knew I could not in good 498 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:55,160 Speaker 7: conscious say that, do nothing and be okay with that, 499 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:57,680 Speaker 7: or say nothing and do it and be okay with that. 500 00:26:58,240 --> 00:26:59,720 Speaker 1: More, there are no girls on the internet after this 501 00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:12,400 Speaker 1: quick break, and we're back, even though they had never met. 502 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:16,120 Speaker 1: Sabrina was inspired by Ottawa's actions at MIT. She remembered 503 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:18,120 Speaker 1: all the times in her own career that she's got 504 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:21,880 Speaker 1: against sexism and racism and got vitriol for it. Speaking 505 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:24,920 Speaker 1: out takes guts and leadership, and Sabrina couldn't be watched 506 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 1: the pattern of a woman without institutional power behind her 507 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 1: being criticized for daring to speak up for what's right, 508 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,000 Speaker 1: even as Ronan Pharaoh was praised for doing the exact 509 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:35,880 Speaker 1: same thing. And while his reporting was a big part 510 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,480 Speaker 1: of why do stepped down, it wasn't Pharaoh who was 511 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:40,399 Speaker 1: risking his personal safety by speaking up. 512 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:41,400 Speaker 2: It was Ottawa. 513 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:44,880 Speaker 7: The thing about this that really struck me was not 514 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:49,960 Speaker 7: just the vulnerability of her visibility, like when she did 515 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:52,359 Speaker 7: speak that step up and speak out and say something, 516 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:55,719 Speaker 7: she was met with not even no no support, but 517 00:27:55,800 --> 00:28:00,600 Speaker 7: with a lot of hatred and anger, but the visibility 518 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:01,400 Speaker 7: of her leadership. 519 00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:03,560 Speaker 5: Win a white guy says the. 520 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:07,520 Speaker 7: Same thing that she said, and he's not even a 521 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:10,960 Speaker 7: part of the MIT community. His safety grown and girls, 522 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:15,399 Speaker 7: his safety was never going in question. And I wasn't 523 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:20,439 Speaker 7: okay with watching yet another pattern of someone outside of 524 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 7: a community and institution with prestige being validated as a 525 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:28,960 Speaker 7: legitimate voice. I didn't want to be a I didn't 526 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:33,120 Speaker 7: want my silence to be complicit in continuing that pattern. 527 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:37,160 Speaker 1: Sabrina thought that Ottawa should get some kind of recognition 528 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:39,960 Speaker 1: per action to MIT. That's when Sabrina got the idea 529 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 1: for the Bold Prize. 530 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:45,920 Speaker 7: MIT has this thing called the Disobedience Prize. It is 531 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:48,760 Speaker 7: a two hundred and fifty thousand dollars cash award, no 532 00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:53,160 Speaker 7: strings attached, given to social change leaders who speak truth 533 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:57,000 Speaker 7: and power and practice moral leadership and ethics. 534 00:28:57,280 --> 00:28:59,560 Speaker 5: And I thought, MIT has. 535 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:03,360 Speaker 7: No right to say what ethical leadership looks like if 536 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:08,400 Speaker 7: they are letting this man stay in this role, if 537 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:12,080 Speaker 7: they're letting this happen to young black women in their community. 538 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,520 Speaker 7: So I was like, Hey, I have a voice, and 539 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:18,600 Speaker 7: I have power, and I can do something and I 540 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:21,360 Speaker 7: can say something. I wanted this young woman to know 541 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:24,160 Speaker 7: that I see her. So and then I was like. 542 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:27,280 Speaker 5: You know what, why don't I give you an award? 543 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:31,400 Speaker 7: So I said, would it be okay if I crowdfunded 544 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:32,360 Speaker 7: a leadership prize for you? 545 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:34,080 Speaker 5: And she was like, that would be a really sweet, 546 00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:34,760 Speaker 5: thank you so much. 547 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:38,600 Speaker 7: I wrote a letter that you see on gooldprice dot 548 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 7: com where I said that you know, I do not 549 00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:47,560 Speaker 7: know her, but I admire her courage, and that I 550 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:52,680 Speaker 7: wasn't okay watching a young black woman speak up and 551 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:57,880 Speaker 7: leave with courage and not only not be seen, but 552 00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:01,480 Speaker 7: also be harmed for it. I think if we need 553 00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:04,040 Speaker 7: to there's the world as it is and the world 554 00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:06,920 Speaker 7: as it should be, and if we want to build 555 00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:08,920 Speaker 7: the world as it should be, then we need to 556 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:12,560 Speaker 7: reframe what leadership looks like so that when these events happen, 557 00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:17,000 Speaker 7: people like Ottawa are not seen as the bad actors. 558 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:20,560 Speaker 7: They're seen as the future, and they're seen as world builders. 559 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 7: So I wanted to use my voice and my power 560 00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 7: and my relationships and resources to shift the conversation from 561 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:31,400 Speaker 7: blame to leadership, from the world as it is to 562 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,160 Speaker 7: the world that it should be, and that it is 563 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:39,600 Speaker 7: not just her right to speak out protect women in 564 00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:44,400 Speaker 7: her community, but also it's within all of our abilities 565 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:47,080 Speaker 7: to speak out and do the same thing. The other 566 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:49,400 Speaker 7: piece that I was that did not sit well with 567 00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:52,720 Speaker 7: me was watching really powerful people that we both know 568 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:56,920 Speaker 7: not recognize their own power and agency. So I want, 569 00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:00,240 Speaker 7: I believe and the power of invitation. And then I 570 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:02,880 Speaker 7: don't believe that they weren't doing anything out of malice 571 00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:06,320 Speaker 7: or ignorance, but the fact that an opportunity for them 572 00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:11,520 Speaker 7: to participate in something different and transformative wasn't there, so 573 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:15,040 Speaker 7: I decided to create it. We are going to refashion 574 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:17,560 Speaker 7: the Disobedience Prize and we're going to make it the 575 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:20,800 Speaker 7: Bold Prize. And I called it the Bold Prize for 576 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:25,040 Speaker 7: three specific reasons. One, when Ethan Zuckerman first announced it 577 00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 7: and his thing. That's when I was like, someone should 578 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:30,480 Speaker 7: give him an award. The second thing. In Ottawa's piece, 579 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:35,520 Speaker 7: she uses the phrase I stand by my advisor is 580 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:38,360 Speaker 7: Ethan Zuckerman's her advisor. She wrote, I stand by my 581 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:40,640 Speaker 7: advisor and his bold decision to step down, and I 582 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:43,400 Speaker 7: was like, oh, that word bold. And then three, when 583 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:45,480 Speaker 7: I was in a situation where I was speaking out 584 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:49,480 Speaker 7: against sexual misconduct and racial injustice, one of the people 585 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:52,440 Speaker 7: who were complicted and covering it up had the audacity 586 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:56,720 Speaker 7: to call me bold, And I thought to myself, Yeah, 587 00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:58,760 Speaker 7: you know, I am bold, and maybe this wouldn't be 588 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:00,080 Speaker 7: so hard if more people were. 589 00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:09,080 Speaker 1: MIT's media lab is called the future Factory. But to 590 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:11,480 Speaker 1: we even want a future designed by powerful people that 591 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:13,160 Speaker 1: would look the other way when it comes to abuse. 592 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:15,479 Speaker 1: What kind of future would that leave us? 593 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:21,560 Speaker 7: With? The choices that m I T made to enable 594 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:27,520 Speaker 7: Epstein and be complicit and covering for sexual predator, those 595 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:33,160 Speaker 7: were deliberate decisions and choices that were made outside of 596 00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:42,280 Speaker 7: a moral compass and so to somehow envelope that into 597 00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:45,560 Speaker 7: like they get to be leaders on what ethics look like, 598 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:47,120 Speaker 7: and not only just what ethics looks like, but what 599 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:48,800 Speaker 7: the future can be. 600 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:49,960 Speaker 2: It can be in a hold. 601 00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:54,760 Speaker 7: I don't want a future imagined by people who participate in. 602 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:57,080 Speaker 5: Systems like so. 603 00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:00,640 Speaker 7: I want to build a future with leaders life Ottawa, 604 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:06,160 Speaker 7: who kid who not only made choices to do the 605 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:10,080 Speaker 7: heart see something hard, to do it anyway, but are 606 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:13,160 Speaker 7: willing to absorb the blowpack that comes with it because 607 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:14,160 Speaker 7: it's the right thing to do. 608 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:18,400 Speaker 1: Through crowdfunding, Sabrina raised over forty thousand dollars for Ottawa 609 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:21,320 Speaker 1: as the inaugural recipient of the Bold Prize. The average 610 00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:24,040 Speaker 1: donation was seventy five dollars. 611 00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:27,360 Speaker 2: I was just so in awe. I was like, oh 612 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:28,440 Speaker 2: my god, thank you so much. 613 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:31,840 Speaker 4: But not just because I mean this was a stranger 614 00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:34,880 Speaker 4: and not just any shoes, was a black woman as well, 615 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,760 Speaker 4: and had just somehow like seen my pain from far 616 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 4: away or seen the struggle and was like I need 617 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:42,920 Speaker 4: to do something for this woman. 618 00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:45,680 Speaker 2: And so that was the true prize for me. 619 00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:48,880 Speaker 4: It was like how many people came together to support 620 00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:50,800 Speaker 4: my voice when I had felt for a long time 621 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:53,280 Speaker 4: that I was on the outside of things. 622 00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:56,440 Speaker 1: I feel, just for journalistic integrity purposes, I should say 623 00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:58,560 Speaker 1: I'm one of the fund I'm one of the donators 624 00:33:58,560 --> 00:33:58,840 Speaker 1: of that. 625 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:03,280 Speaker 2: Yeh. And you know, I agree. 626 00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:06,440 Speaker 1: I thought the idea that Sabrina, who is this has 627 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:08,600 Speaker 1: been a really powerful force in my own life is 628 00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:11,040 Speaker 1: personally would reach. 629 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:11,680 Speaker 2: Out to you like that. 630 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:13,600 Speaker 1: I thought that was so beautiful and it really goes 631 00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:15,160 Speaker 1: back to what you were saying at the beginning of 632 00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:18,960 Speaker 1: our interview about sort of being lifted up by this 633 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:21,080 Speaker 1: community of black women and lifting them. 634 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:21,520 Speaker 5: Up as well. 635 00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:25,000 Speaker 1: Like it's just it is really special, and I think 636 00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:28,200 Speaker 1: it was important for me, even though you know, you 637 00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:29,880 Speaker 1: and I had never met, it was important for me 638 00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:33,319 Speaker 1: to let you know that people out there had your back, 639 00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:36,600 Speaker 1: We were rooting for you, like watching what you were doing, 640 00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:43,520 Speaker 1: like what your your bravery and your courage reverberates. You know, 641 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:45,719 Speaker 1: you never know who is you never know who is 642 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:48,799 Speaker 1: going to be seeing what you did, and that's going 643 00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:50,239 Speaker 1: to be the reason why they speak up. 644 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:52,759 Speaker 2: Thank you. Yeah. 645 00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:57,120 Speaker 4: I think that's also been another like big thing that 646 00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:00,160 Speaker 4: I've gained is you just never know who's life if 647 00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:04,120 Speaker 4: you're going to touch, or who's who like way your 648 00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:07,440 Speaker 4: words will reach. And there's been so many like random 649 00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:11,439 Speaker 4: people who were, you know, saying what you're saying, like oh, 650 00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:12,840 Speaker 4: you gave me the courage to do this, or you 651 00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:14,719 Speaker 4: gave me the courage to write this and to say 652 00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:17,560 Speaker 4: this and whatever. And I've been like, okay, like this 653 00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:19,680 Speaker 4: can be a movement, like the Bold Prize can be 654 00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:23,400 Speaker 4: a movement, Like it can be something that people aspired 655 00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:26,799 Speaker 4: to get. I didn't have a vendetta against Joey like 656 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:31,200 Speaker 4: personally either, so it wasn't like I won him fired 657 00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:35,120 Speaker 4: or to resign and would only be happy once that happened, 658 00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:40,120 Speaker 4: because clearly this issue was deeply structural within MIT as well. 659 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:44,600 Speaker 4: So I felt vindicated after like maybe you know, time 660 00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:48,160 Speaker 4: after when you know, with the Bold Prize and with 661 00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:51,840 Speaker 4: the letters of support and you know, by people encouraging 662 00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:54,920 Speaker 4: me to keep speaking my mind. But we still have 663 00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:58,360 Speaker 4: so much work to do, Like as an institution here. 664 00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:01,759 Speaker 1: What's your advice for other women about speaking truth to 665 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:03,040 Speaker 1: power even when it's tough. 666 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:05,480 Speaker 4: The first is, I really think it is a lonely 667 00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:08,640 Speaker 4: process and it isn't easy I you know, I learned 668 00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:13,920 Speaker 4: that firsthand, and I think at this light sound like 669 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:17,600 Speaker 4: kind of mythical, But I think drawing power from others 670 00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:19,560 Speaker 4: before you do what you need to do is so 671 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:24,200 Speaker 4: important because you're going to need so much energy to 672 00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:27,319 Speaker 4: keep going and to like not backtracking what you said 673 00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:32,879 Speaker 4: because people don't agree with you, and so like, if 674 00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:35,920 Speaker 4: that's reading, or if that's talking to actual people, or 675 00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:41,160 Speaker 4: if that's listening to Lizzo, like literally drawing power from 676 00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:43,879 Speaker 4: other women in history and time, because there's so many 677 00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:46,719 Speaker 4: who have done the thing that you want to do 678 00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:49,360 Speaker 4: is so important, gives you stamina. 679 00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:53,239 Speaker 1: Institutions like MIT are powerful, but so are women. So 680 00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:56,839 Speaker 1: is community. Women being in community with each other and 681 00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:59,120 Speaker 1: lifting each other up and inspiring each other to speak 682 00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:02,120 Speaker 1: our truths. Well, that's powerful enough to create new systems, 683 00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:05,560 Speaker 1: and women can envision bolder futures and brighter realities when 684 00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:12,279 Speaker 1: we come together. Got a story about an interesting thing 685 00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:14,319 Speaker 1: in tech, or just want to say hi, You can 686 00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:16,600 Speaker 1: reach us at Hello at tangody dot com. You can 687 00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:19,560 Speaker 1: also find transcripts for today's episode at tengodi dot com. 688 00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:21,359 Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet was created by 689 00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:24,400 Speaker 1: me bridget Todd it's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed 690 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:28,040 Speaker 1: creative Jonathan Stricklet is our executive producer. Tari Harrison is 691 00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:31,680 Speaker 1: our producer and sound engineer. Michael Almado is our contributing producer. 692 00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:34,640 Speaker 1: I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help 693 00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:37,680 Speaker 1: us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For 694 00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:41,160 Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 695 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:53,560 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.