1 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:06,080 Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet as a production 2 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:13,640 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Tad and this 3 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 1: is There Are No Girls on the Internet. So this 4 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 1: is part two of our episode on doctor Andrew Huberman. 5 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:24,000 Speaker 1: If you have not listened to part one, you're probably 6 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:25,800 Speaker 1: gonna want to listen to that before you listen to 7 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 1: this to have the context. But to recap, Andrew Huberman 8 00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 1: is a very famous, very popular podcaster and neuroscientist who 9 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:36,479 Speaker 1: has been giving guidance to millions of people on how 10 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:39,560 Speaker 1: to hack their way to a better life. New York 11 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:42,120 Speaker 1: mag just published a piece with the stories of six 12 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: women in doctor Huberman's life who alleged that he mistreated them, 13 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:49,320 Speaker 1: and also looking at some of his questionable science and 14 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: ethical practices, like endorsing dubious supplements. I'm joined by a producer, Mike, 15 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 1: who is also a scientist, to get into why we're 16 00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 1: all so quick to build up flawed people into gurus. 17 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:05,199 Speaker 1: You and I were talking about this off Mike, Mike, 18 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 1: weird thing to say about what exactly you think is 19 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 1: going on here? Right? So, after doing all my research 20 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:14,679 Speaker 1: for this episode, I have totally changed my mind. I 21 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 1: go back to this episode that we did early in 22 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:21,319 Speaker 1: Tangote's history with a Foma Uzoma, who was formerly a 23 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 1: pinterest She developed the platform's first ever medical misinformation policy, 24 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:28,560 Speaker 1: and in our conversation, she told me that it's really 25 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:30,120 Speaker 1: not that deep. Like a lot of the people who 26 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:34,479 Speaker 1: push medical misinformation are just scammers, right, They're just using 27 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 1: fear or whatever or like junk science to get people 28 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 1: to give them money for whatever scam supplement or scam 29 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:45,119 Speaker 1: course they're selling or whatever. And I think I'm kind 30 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 1: of coming around the fact that maybe Huberman is like 31 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 1: a little bit of a scammer, like like maybe it's 32 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:53,120 Speaker 1: not like, maybe it's not that deep. He is just 33 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 1: like a snake oil salesman who gets rich from selling 34 00:01:56,840 --> 00:02:00,200 Speaker 1: snake oil. So he is using his scientific credentials to 35 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 1: booth that snake oil. 36 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:04,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree. I think that's a big piece of 37 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 2: it here, right, Like it's not in dispute that he 38 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 2: is aggressively promoting supplements that do not have evidence based 39 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:17,799 Speaker 2: to demonstrate their effectiveness and he's getting rich off that, right. 40 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:22,400 Speaker 2: That's like literally, you know, I guess it's not literally, 41 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:28,119 Speaker 2: but it is a direct analogy to selling snake oil. Yeah, 42 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:30,120 Speaker 2: good old fashioned scammer. I do think that he's a 43 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:33,359 Speaker 2: little bit more interesting or different than a lot of 44 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:37,800 Speaker 2: your garden variety scammers, just because he's so much more 45 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 2: educated and is like a bona fide scientist making scientific 46 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:49,080 Speaker 2: contributions and seems to be a very introspective person. So like, 47 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:52,920 Speaker 2: I'm just so fascinated the story he tells himself to 48 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:55,680 Speaker 2: justify selling that snake oil. 49 00:02:56,080 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 1: Well, Andrew Huberman's whole thing is like a storyteller exercise 50 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 1: about himself, like a myth making exercise about himself. Like 51 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:06,240 Speaker 1: the sort of story that he tells about himself is 52 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 1: that he was a troubled kid. His parents handled his 53 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 1: divorce in a way that left him neglected and like unparented. 54 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:17,799 Speaker 1: His parents kind of dispute that, but whatever, and that 55 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 1: he was sent to sort of a facility for troubled 56 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 1: youth and that talk therapy is what saved him, and 57 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 1: he wanted to dedicate his life to like helping others 58 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 1: because of that, and he got into Stanford despite the 59 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 1: fact that he was this like troubled youth who was 60 00:03:33,919 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 1: like essentially unparented. So he says, what does seem certain 61 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 1: is that an adolescence, Andrew became a regular consumer of 62 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 1: talk therapy. In therapy, one learns to tell stories about 63 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 1: one's experience. A story one could tell is I overcame 64 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 1: immense odds to be where I am. Another is the 65 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 1: son of a Stanford professor born at Stanford Hospital, grows 66 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 1: up to be a Stanford professor. Like I do think 67 00:03:56,920 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 1: that he maybe is somebody who, like we all certain effects, 68 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 1: but like gets down on the story that he tells 69 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:07,880 Speaker 1: himself and that story sort of becomes the truth. And 70 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 1: so maybe the story that he tells himself, like the 71 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 1: story that I tell myself when I have to do 72 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 1: adreads is like, if I didn't do these ad reads, 73 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:18,680 Speaker 1: the people who make my podcast would not be able 74 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:20,599 Speaker 1: to be paid. I would not be able to be paid, 75 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:22,200 Speaker 1: the show would not be able to go on, right, 76 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:24,600 Speaker 1: And so that's the story I tell myself when I'm 77 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 1: doing adreads for our sponsors, all of whom I love 78 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 1: and respect very much. But I think, like that's the 79 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 1: story that I have to tell myself to feel okay 80 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:36,839 Speaker 1: about doing these adreads, even though nobody likes ads. I 81 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:39,839 Speaker 1: think it's different when you are a scientist telling yourself 82 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:43,640 Speaker 1: a story that makes it okay to use your credentials 83 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 1: as a scientist to maybe lead people into things that 84 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 1: are risky. 85 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:53,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, especially when you are publicly preaching introspection and discipline 86 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 2: and accountability. Those all seem like virtues that maybe he 87 00:04:57,120 --> 00:04:59,240 Speaker 2: should take a deeper look at. 88 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:01,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is I'm kind of going off script here, 89 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:05,280 Speaker 1: but like you were saying, how the popular guru who 90 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:07,920 Speaker 1: doesn't take their own advice and is not living the 91 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 1: values that they preach in public. That is such a 92 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:14,839 Speaker 1: well worn thing, that's almost a cliche at this point. 93 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 1: I wonder what it is that about Huberman that makes 94 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:25,039 Speaker 1: it so hard to see this well worn trope playing 95 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 1: out in before our eyes, because I think that's in 96 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:30,359 Speaker 1: part kind of what's going on here with Huberman. But 97 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:32,279 Speaker 1: it's so interesting to me how people are like, but 98 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:35,360 Speaker 1: he's a scientist, but he's introspective, but he's very thoughtful, 99 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:37,919 Speaker 1: he's different. Maybe it's just the power of marketing, the 100 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:41,040 Speaker 1: power how people really want to believe that what he's 101 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:44,359 Speaker 1: doing is so much different than the doctor oz Is 102 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 1: of the world because of the way he packages it 103 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:48,800 Speaker 1: so effectively as being different. 104 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:52,799 Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I haven't listened 105 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:56,159 Speaker 2: to his podcast. But you know, in the research for 106 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:00,320 Speaker 2: doing this, you know, I read a couple of artists 107 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 2: that we're talking about it, and all of them mentioned 108 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:08,039 Speaker 2: when he's interviewing guests or speaking in public. You know, 109 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:13,600 Speaker 2: it's characterized by humility and kindness and compassion. And I 110 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:15,840 Speaker 2: could imagine that all of those would be things that 111 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:22,120 Speaker 2: would disarm a audience and make them feel like the 112 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 2: person could be trusted right and feel more connected to them, 113 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 2: Like humility is super powerful. 114 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:32,679 Speaker 1: But even that reminds me of the way these women 115 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 1: say that he used that same kind of language to 116 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:40,840 Speaker 1: control them. You know. That's sort of like like at 117 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 1: one point, when one of the women realizes that he 118 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 1: cheated on her, he texts her like something along the 119 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:49,479 Speaker 1: lines of, I hear you, and I'm willing to hear 120 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 1: you for as long as you need. Which, again, it's 121 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:56,000 Speaker 1: almost like therapysts beak to get away with bad behavior, 122 00:06:56,040 --> 00:06:58,159 Speaker 1: And I wonder if that's part of it, like using 123 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 1: a certain kind of disarming lang waged and disarming presentation 124 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:07,799 Speaker 1: and disarming you know, vibe to really effectively trick people 125 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 1: into trusting you and to trick them into not seeing 126 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 1: what is so obviously in front of their own eyes 127 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 1: or or happening in their own ears, like I don't 128 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 1: need It's like not some of this stuff is not 129 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 1: in dispute. It's not in dispute that he takes money 130 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 1: from supplement companies. It is not in dispute that supplement 131 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 1: companies are notoriously not transparent and rely on junk science, 132 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 1: if any science at all. Those things are not in dispute. 133 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 1: So the fact that people are like, no, he would 134 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 1: never it's like he would not dispute that is what's happening. 135 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a good question. What is it about him 136 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 2: that makes people like him and want to follow his advice? 137 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 2: But clearly he's done very well at it, and I 138 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 2: think it is an important question for us all to consider. 139 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 1: I think part of it's gotta be that he's hot. 140 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 1: Probably helps, Like he's like jacked, he has glasses, Like 141 00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 1: I don't know, Like, I think he's someone that maybe 142 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 1: a lot of the male listeners in his audience want 143 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:05,040 Speaker 1: to see themselves in, Like who would not want to 144 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 1: be like, oh, yeah, I'm this like jacked, ripped guy 145 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 1: who has glasses, But it's also a scientist and like 146 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 1: can maybe juggle women in an unethical way, Like I 147 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 1: think that men are identifying with him in a certain way, 148 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 1: and that is maybe making it hard for them to 149 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:25,240 Speaker 1: see what is happening so plainly, right out and open. Yeah, 150 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 1: it's a good point. 151 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot of ways in which the life 152 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 2: he's leading feels aspirational. 153 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 1: Mm hmmm, I completely agree. So Doctor Andrea Love, her 154 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 1: piece just makes him sound like a good old fashioned scammer. Again, 155 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:39,959 Speaker 1: I will link to it in the show notes, so 156 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:42,599 Speaker 1: should definitely read it. So she points out that he 157 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 1: is somebody who uses dubious science to put people off 158 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:50,559 Speaker 1: of accepted medical interventions like fluoride or vaccines, even when 159 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 1: there is broad medical consensus about it, in service of 160 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:57,240 Speaker 1: suggesting all alternative that he has a financial stake in. 161 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 1: So doctor Love says that Huberman uses false balance, the 162 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 1: fallacy that equal and opposite sides always exists. Take his 163 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 1: thoughts on fluoride. While fluoride has been used for decades 164 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:10,440 Speaker 1: to prevent dental disease, Huberman gives the impression that there 165 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:13,360 Speaker 1: is an ongoing debate among experts about its use, and 166 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:15,560 Speaker 1: reasons for his listeners to be careful about how much 167 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:19,080 Speaker 1: fluoride containing tap water they consume. During his Oral Health 168 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 1: podcast episode, Huberman undermines consensus data on fluoride, endorses fluoride 169 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 1: free toothpastes as well as a Yerba mate tea company 170 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 1: that uses fluoride free water and which he is a 171 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:32,400 Speaker 1: business partner of, and cites a dentist who spreads fear 172 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:36,560 Speaker 1: about fluoride as his expert reference. Huberman positions this for 173 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 1: his listeners as information to make the best decision, as 174 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:41,920 Speaker 1: though we all need to be carefully thinking about our 175 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 1: fluoride levels. 176 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, again, cherry picking here. It sounds like he cherry 177 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 2: picked particular expert who has an axed the grind about 178 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:54,760 Speaker 2: fluoride while ignoring the vast majority of dentists who are 179 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:59,199 Speaker 2: in consensus that fluoride is positive thing to promote oral health. 180 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:01,240 Speaker 1: And when we were talking about his cold and flu 181 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:03,600 Speaker 1: episode where he was talking about how he doesn't always 182 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 1: get the flu shot because it is not effective unless 183 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:09,679 Speaker 1: the shot protects from that exact strain of flu going 184 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 1: around that year, which is not totally accurate, you were like, well, 185 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:14,599 Speaker 1: why would he do that? You know, what does he 186 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:17,560 Speaker 1: have to gain in discrediting vaccines? And again if you 187 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:20,840 Speaker 1: believe doctor Andrea Love, it comes down to those supplements 188 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:23,200 Speaker 1: that he sells. Having a paid sponsor is not a 189 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 1: disqualifier in and of itself, she writes, But when your 190 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:28,680 Speaker 1: financial conflicts of interest seem to dictate your content, it 191 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:32,840 Speaker 1: should be After dismissing legitimate data. In the flu episode, 192 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:36,320 Speaker 1: his lengthy quote science backed discussion to prevent colds and 193 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:40,640 Speaker 1: flu boiled down to an extended commercial for taking supplements. 194 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:43,439 Speaker 1: So all of me has me wondering, which I think 195 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:45,720 Speaker 1: is the point of the New York mag piece. Why 196 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 1: do we look to anybody for their life advice? Like, 197 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:50,839 Speaker 1: why do we make people into gurus in the first place. 198 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:54,560 Speaker 1: It does not surprise me that Huberman really got famous 199 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 1: famous in the twenty twenty one era of COVID. You know, 200 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:01,320 Speaker 1: we were all sort of alone and connected and looking 201 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:04,280 Speaker 1: for some solution or some antidote to that where you 202 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:06,679 Speaker 1: weren't sleeping well, you weren't eating well, maybe like the 203 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 1: vibes were terrible. So in a lot of way, I 204 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 1: think the public we were just like easy marks during 205 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:13,440 Speaker 1: that time. 206 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:17,720 Speaker 2: Yep, just a bunch of dupes with money, yeah, looking 207 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:21,559 Speaker 2: for a quick fix. Yep, rubes looking for a solution 208 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:23,280 Speaker 2: and you You and I kind of. 209 00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:25,480 Speaker 1: Talked about this off mic, but it's one of the 210 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:29,440 Speaker 1: reasons why like life advice content. Like I'm not somebody 211 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 1: who really unless I'm really having a dark time of desperation, Like, 212 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:40,600 Speaker 1: I'm not someone who listens to lifestyle or life advice podcasts. 213 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 1: I don't like career advice podcasts. I just don't like 214 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 1: this idea that one person has a one size fits 215 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:49,800 Speaker 1: all solution. This is my opinion. I don't think life 216 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:52,440 Speaker 1: works that way. I think people are really complex. People 217 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:56,440 Speaker 1: have very complex motivations and desires and needs and hang ups. 218 00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:59,240 Speaker 1: I don't see how a stranger could speak to that 219 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:01,400 Speaker 1: in any way. That is I'm not saying. I don't 220 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 1: not saying that anybody should like but you're a bad 221 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:05,960 Speaker 1: person if you listen to that. I just feel like 222 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:08,840 Speaker 1: anybody who is like wearing a blazer and crossing their 223 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 1: arms and being like I have the answer, something in 224 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:13,320 Speaker 1: me automatically is like suspect of that. 225 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:17,080 Speaker 2: I one hundred percent agree. Yeah, anybody who says that 226 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 2: they have the answer huge red flag. And I'm somebody 227 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 2: who loves learning from people. There are so many smart 228 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:28,760 Speaker 2: people in the world, who have insight, who have wisdom, 229 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:34,840 Speaker 2: who talk about interesting philosophical and ethical questions that you know, 230 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 2: help me understand the world and help me decide how 231 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 2: to live my life. But I feel like there's a 232 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 2: very fine line where that crosses over into solutions. And 233 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:49,079 Speaker 2: therefore you should do xyz, you should buy this supplement, 234 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 2: you should adopt my patented life routine. Once they start 235 00:12:56,400 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 2: hawking a specific solution, that red flag gets a little 236 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:03,480 Speaker 2: bit higher. And then when that solution is something that 237 00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:08,439 Speaker 2: you can buy, it's time for me to walk away. 238 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:11,200 Speaker 1: You've lost me. You've lost me. 239 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:26,680 Speaker 3: Let's take a quick break at our back. 240 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 1: I think we're kind of in a golden age of 241 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:35,240 Speaker 1: the snake oil salesman who can use digital mediums like 242 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:40,200 Speaker 1: podcasts or social media to demonstrate that they have it 243 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:42,280 Speaker 1: all figured out, that they had the kind of life 244 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:44,199 Speaker 1: that is aspirational that you would want to live. It's 245 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 1: basically how MLMs might operate of like, my life looks 246 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 1: dope as hell on Instagram? Don't you want to live 247 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 1: like I do? If you buy this thing, you can. 248 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:56,520 Speaker 1: And so I think that we're kind of in a 249 00:13:56,600 --> 00:14:03,840 Speaker 1: golden era of coaches and lifestyle gurus and wellness people 250 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:07,600 Speaker 1: and people selling courses just like and I'm not saying 251 00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:09,960 Speaker 1: all of those are are are bunk, because I certainly 252 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:12,679 Speaker 1: don't know, but like, I think that we're in an 253 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 1: era where people are looking for a solution to the 254 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 1: way that things feel right now, and there's always going 255 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 1: to be somebody willing to take their money offering that solution, 256 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:26,960 Speaker 1: and we got to be extra careful about who and 257 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:30,960 Speaker 1: why we elevate to that platform. 258 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 2: I think you're absolutely right, And I think that really 259 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 2: intersects with the fact that he is a scientist and that, 260 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 2: you know, speaking from science is part of his brand 261 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 2: on the podcast. You know, he's somebody who looks really 262 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 2: good on videos, looks good on Instagram, is good at 263 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 2: managing social media, can build this following leads this like aspirational, 264 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 2: cool looking life, which makes people want to emulate him. 265 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 2: And if he's give advice, it's reasonable to think that, oh, 266 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:04,400 Speaker 2: if I take that advice, my life could look like his. 267 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 2: So the things that he's saying must be true, because 268 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:10,360 Speaker 2: his life looks pretty good. He's healthy, he's wealthy, he's 269 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:12,480 Speaker 2: sleeping with a bunch of women. But that's so different 270 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 2: from how evidence gets evaluated in science. You look at evidence, 271 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 2: you look at multiple studies. Do they agree, do they disagree, 272 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 2: Look across the balance of all of the evidence to 273 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:26,880 Speaker 2: reach conclusions based on the evidence that's there, in a 274 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 2: transparent evaluation of the methods that we're used to create 275 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 2: those conclusions. It's much more boring than an Instagram real 276 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 2: or a YouTube video. But that's how scientific conclusions get reached. 277 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 2: And I think that's maybe why it's so easy and 278 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:48,080 Speaker 2: feel so dangerous for people who have scientific authority due 279 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:51,880 Speaker 2: to their institutional positions and just take that over to 280 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 2: Instagram and popular culture to start dispensing advice that is 281 00:15:57,000 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 2: not within their area of experts. 282 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 1: Tea, Yes, And I think that, like that's the real 283 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:07,280 Speaker 1: scandal that I think the piece is trying to highlight. 284 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 1: The scandal is not to me, like how he treated 285 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:12,440 Speaker 1: women badly in his personal life. It is that he 286 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 1: enjoys this pedestal of like men of science and knowledge 287 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:19,240 Speaker 1: and enjoys all of the respect that comes with that, 288 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 1: while also behaving in ways that are like really small 289 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 1: and like maybe unethical and maybe like anti science, Like 290 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:28,960 Speaker 1: he wasn't trying to unlock the science of all of 291 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:31,040 Speaker 1: us living our best lives. Like maybe he was a 292 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 1: little bit, but it sounds like it was also an 293 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:38,320 Speaker 1: enterprise to personally enrich himself, get and control women and 294 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 1: have fame. Like I said, small, that's not a super 295 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 1: respectable you know man of science behavior that is like 296 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 1: small man driven by desire and vice behavior. 297 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean if you were to, you know, take 298 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 2: a stoic approach to it. One should be leading a 299 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 2: virtuous life, and none of those sound very virtuous. 300 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:07,199 Speaker 1: Ultimately, nobody likes to pursue vice and hedonism and you know, 301 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:10,440 Speaker 1: desire more than your girl right here, So I'm not judging, 302 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 1: but to create an entire platform around the importance of 303 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:18,480 Speaker 1: discipline and avoiding this and avoiding that while you are 304 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:22,119 Speaker 1: privately courting your version of those things yourself. Like I 305 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:25,080 Speaker 1: don't think he's somebody who is like preaching not drinking 306 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:27,439 Speaker 1: and then drinking alcohol, But he is somebody who preaches 307 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 1: like avoid dopamine and then like clearly has these like 308 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:33,879 Speaker 1: dopamine driven relationships with women that are very chaotic based 309 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 1: on lies. Like I think that's the scandal. The writer 310 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:39,639 Speaker 1: Justin Murphy put it really beautifully on Twitter. He writes 311 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 1: their Huberman story is not altogether trivial. The smartest men 312 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:46,720 Speaker 1: in every generation of Western history have generally converged on 313 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:50,359 Speaker 1: the idea that knowledge and cultivation involve a certain conquest 314 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 1: of the appetites. Obviously, men who are successful economically and 315 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 1: socially are free to indulge their appetites, and often do. 316 00:17:57,160 --> 00:17:59,879 Speaker 1: The story is not surprising or informative if you are 317 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:03,840 Speaker 1: had Huberman pegged as playing primarily an economic and social game, 318 00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:06,760 Speaker 1: The story is surprising and damning if you saw him 319 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 1: as playing a game of knowledge and cultivation. It is 320 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:12,879 Speaker 1: not therefore a totally vacuous story, as many seem to 321 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 1: be saying. In the eyes of any classically educated observer, 322 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 1: it is a precipitous fall in the stock price of rationalist, 323 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:24,720 Speaker 1: materialist utilitarian frameworks for living. For many people, Huberman was 324 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:27,560 Speaker 1: not just a purveyor of useful information, but an image 325 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:31,639 Speaker 1: of wisdom, an image of a cultivated man no longer obviously, 326 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:34,199 Speaker 1: except for the most naive, you could know everything there 327 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:36,119 Speaker 1: is to know about the body, and have all the 328 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:38,840 Speaker 1: followers in the world and not exceed the wisdom of 329 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:41,480 Speaker 1: the average twenty five year old man. The scandal of 330 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:44,880 Speaker 1: the story is not Huberman's immorality, which is common and generic. 331 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:48,040 Speaker 1: The scandal is ethical, someone who is famous for having 332 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:51,320 Speaker 1: tremendous knowledge of how to live does not himself live 333 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 1: in a. 334 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 2: Beautiful way common and generic. That's got a sting. 335 00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:58,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I guess that's the disconnect that like 336 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 1: people want to see who as this learned man of 337 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 1: science and knowledge and cultivation which is so high minded 338 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:08,720 Speaker 1: and elevated. In reality, he's trying to get a check 339 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 1: and get his dick wet. Like that is like generic 340 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:13,920 Speaker 1: and small minded. I can tell you a thousand other 341 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:15,440 Speaker 1: men I know who are the same way, trying to 342 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 1: get the same shit. It's not like I'm not trying 343 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:19,800 Speaker 1: to demonize him for it, but let's call it what 344 00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 1: it is. And like I think from the article that 345 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:25,359 Speaker 1: is like plainly what it is. And I guess ultimately 346 00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:28,560 Speaker 1: the question is, like does this matter? Here's where the 347 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:30,919 Speaker 1: Naric magpiece leaves it. There is an argument to be 348 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:33,280 Speaker 1: made that it does not matter how a helpful podcast 349 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:36,520 Speaker 1: or conducts himself outside of the studio. A man unable 350 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:40,439 Speaker 1: to constrain his urges may still preach dopominergic control to others. 351 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:45,320 Speaker 1: Morning Sun still remains salutary. The physiological side employed by 352 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:47,560 Speaker 1: this writer many times in the writing of this essay, 353 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:52,600 Speaker 1: continues to affect calm. That's one of his trademark tactics, 354 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:54,880 Speaker 1: is a specific side that's supposed to calm you down. 355 00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 1: The large and growing distance between Andrew Huberman and the 356 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:00,720 Speaker 1: man he continues to be may not even matter to 357 00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:03,800 Speaker 1: those who buy questionable products he has recommended and from 358 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:07,119 Speaker 1: which he will materially benefit, or listeners who imagined a 359 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:09,880 Speaker 1: man in a white coat at work in Palo Alto. 360 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:13,399 Speaker 1: The people who definitively find the space between fantasy and 361 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:16,159 Speaker 1: reality to be a problem are women who fell for 362 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 1: a podcaster who professed deep, sustained concern for their personal growth, 363 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:24,719 Speaker 1: and who, in his skyrocketing influence, continue to project an 364 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 1: image of earnest self discovery. It is here in the 365 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:31,600 Speaker 1: false belief of two minds and synchronicity and exploration that 366 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:35,919 Speaker 1: deception leads to harm. They fear it will lead to more. So, Yeah, 367 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:40,440 Speaker 1: what a piece, beautifully written, And I think that's kind 368 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:42,359 Speaker 1: of the so what these women are just raising the 369 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:45,200 Speaker 1: alarm that this guy who is trafficking off as his 370 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 1: scientific credentials is maybe actually not who he says he is, 371 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:53,239 Speaker 1: and the public should know if he's going to be 372 00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:55,639 Speaker 1: a guru, there should be some transparency around that. 373 00:20:56,280 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, anybody who's stands up and says I 374 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 2: have the answer, it is reasonable to inspect how they 375 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:06,440 Speaker 2: live their life. 376 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:21,399 Speaker 3: More. After a quick break, let's get right back into it. 377 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:27,159 Speaker 1: So a lot of Huberman supporters are really digging in 378 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:29,879 Speaker 1: and defending him. Maybe those are just the loudest ones. 379 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:32,960 Speaker 1: Maybe people who were like casual listeners of his podcast 380 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:35,520 Speaker 1: are like, I don't know, like that article seems fair. 381 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:40,840 Speaker 1: Who cares? It is so interesting really, because you know, 382 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:42,640 Speaker 1: I wonder if a lot of the people who listen 383 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:46,720 Speaker 1: to Huberman really identified with him, or maybe his lifestyle 384 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:49,520 Speaker 1: was like really aspirational to them, and so when he 385 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:52,439 Speaker 1: is being called out in this way, maybe they feel 386 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:55,159 Speaker 1: personally threatened and that is why they are coming to 387 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:59,680 Speaker 1: his defense so specifically, like Lex Friedman was like, he 388 00:21:59,880 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 1: is a personal friend of mine and this is a 389 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:04,440 Speaker 1: hit job. Again, I was not able to read Lex 390 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:07,159 Speaker 1: Friedman's entire statement because he has me blocked. But this 391 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:09,360 Speaker 1: idea that because you are a listener of his podcast 392 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:11,960 Speaker 1: or even like, let's like, you know, him personally that 393 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 1: you would know the intimacies of his romantic life and 394 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:17,159 Speaker 1: how he shows up sexually and romantically, Like I have 395 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:19,240 Speaker 1: plenty of close friends and I don't know the ins 396 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:21,720 Speaker 1: and outs of how they get down sexually and romantically, 397 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:24,439 Speaker 1: and I I would never pretend that I did, right, Like, 398 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:28,240 Speaker 1: I find it really interesting how many people are so 399 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:32,919 Speaker 1: loudly coming to his defense, Like I follow and enjoy 400 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:36,159 Speaker 1: plenty of podcasters that I don't personally know. There is 401 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:38,560 Speaker 1: not one of them that I can think of that 402 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:41,800 Speaker 1: I would read like a long, critical, deep dive into 403 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:44,080 Speaker 1: their work and their history and their values that I 404 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:46,200 Speaker 1: wouldn't come away thinking like, oh, maybe they had a 405 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:49,840 Speaker 1: few points to see people summarily dismissing this as a 406 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:52,720 Speaker 1: hit job to defend Huberman like he is someone they know. 407 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:55,520 Speaker 1: And it's interesting how this has become this kind of 408 00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 1: culture wars thing where it's like, Oh, they're just attacking 409 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 1: him for no reason, and I'm not even gonna lie, 410 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:05,159 Speaker 1: like it's all bunk, right, and so like they're not 411 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:08,840 Speaker 1: even engaging with the pieces of the article that are 412 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:11,359 Speaker 1: not about his romantic life, right, Like the way that 413 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:13,879 Speaker 1: he talked about that colleague of his that was a woman. 414 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:16,920 Speaker 1: That's not about his romantic life. His relationship with ag 415 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:19,919 Speaker 1: One and supplements, that's not about his romantic life. Like 416 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:23,280 Speaker 1: the questions about his own myth making and his background, 417 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:25,720 Speaker 1: that's not about his romantic life. Though. Are those not 418 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:29,160 Speaker 1: questions that need answers and deserve scrutiny for somebody who 419 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:31,600 Speaker 1: is bolstering themselves as a public guru. 420 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:35,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not surprising that it has sort of been 421 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:39,200 Speaker 2: framed and is being talked about as yet another culture 422 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:42,480 Speaker 2: war of us versus them. I think another lens that 423 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 2: we can look at it is earlier we made an 424 00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:50,600 Speaker 2: analogy to conspiracy theories, where his scientific rationale behind this 425 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:53,919 Speaker 2: or that solution is often like cherry picked. It'll be 426 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:56,159 Speaker 2: like a germ of truth in there, but then build 427 00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 2: this elaborate, just so story around it that it sounds 428 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:01,680 Speaker 2: like a lot of cases leads to the conclusion that 429 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:05,159 Speaker 2: you should buy some product that he's selling. And similarly, 430 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:09,199 Speaker 2: here his followers, I suspect a lot of them are 431 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 2: true believers. When confronted with a critical piece like this 432 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 2: New York mag article, just reject it right the same 433 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:18,840 Speaker 2: way that when you present somebody who believes in the 434 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:22,160 Speaker 2: conspiracy theory. With evidence that refuse that conspiracy, they will 435 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:25,640 Speaker 2: in most cases just double down, and the conflicting evidence 436 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:27,879 Speaker 2: is somehow reinterpreted in a way that makes them believe 437 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:30,600 Speaker 2: in the conspiracy even more strongly. It feels like there's 438 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:32,640 Speaker 2: something similar going on here as well. 439 00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:36,560 Speaker 1: Well, I can tell you who a lot of his 440 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 1: defenders are saying is behind this hit piece, Big Pharma. 441 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:45,359 Speaker 1: Big Pharma doesn't like that Andrew Kuberman is preaching the 442 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 1: powers of meditation and sunlight and ice baths and supplements. 443 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:54,119 Speaker 1: They want us all hooked on the Big Pharma machine. 444 00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:57,439 Speaker 1: And that's why New York mag is like writing this 445 00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:00,160 Speaker 1: like well researched while written take out of his life. 446 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:05,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, they're just a front for Big Pharma. I'm no 447 00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:08,440 Speaker 2: big fan of the pharmaceutical industry. They do lots of 448 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:12,360 Speaker 2: like pretty shady, harmful stuff, no question, But in this case, yes, 449 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:16,159 Speaker 2: dismissing this piece as a hit piece by Big Pharma, 450 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:19,800 Speaker 2: I feel like George Soros is just like one step 451 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:25,480 Speaker 2: away in that causal chain of dismissive logic. 452 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:28,640 Speaker 1: Oh totally And side note like I feel like whenever 453 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:31,360 Speaker 1: like this is a hit piece, an attack job, by 454 00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:34,119 Speaker 1: Big Pharma whenever that is the go to line of defense. 455 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:36,920 Speaker 1: It really tells me a lot about the audience that 456 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:41,160 Speaker 1: the person has cultivated, because that was the same thing 457 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:44,119 Speaker 1: that they used to defend Joe Rogan when people like 458 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:46,760 Speaker 1: me were pointing out his use of misinformation in the 459 00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:50,000 Speaker 1: podcast space. They were like, Oh, like, he isn't down 460 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 1: with the COVID vaccine, He's interested in alternatives to curb COVID, 461 00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:57,119 Speaker 1: so Big Pharma had to take him down. I feel 462 00:25:57,119 --> 00:25:59,639 Speaker 1: like that tells me so much about the audience that 463 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:01,520 Speaker 1: you have cultivated and what they are about and what 464 00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:03,000 Speaker 1: they value what they don't value. 465 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:05,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, cause it's not just listen to me, I have 466 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:09,200 Speaker 2: the answer. It's also don't listen to anybody else. They're 467 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:10,160 Speaker 2: trying to deceive you. 468 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:13,560 Speaker 1: And anybody who says anything critical about what the person 469 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:16,879 Speaker 1: is saying, they're not just wrong, they are like in 470 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:20,360 Speaker 1: the pocket a Big Pharma. Again. It's that total conspiratorial 471 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:22,280 Speaker 1: thinking that it's like they don't just have a difference 472 00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:26,399 Speaker 1: of opinion, it's like on the farious plot. So in 473 00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:29,920 Speaker 1: the fallout of all of this, people are really trying 474 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:32,160 Speaker 1: to come for the person who wrote the article, who 475 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 1: is new York mag writer Carrie Howley, who I love. 476 00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 1: Carrie is writing like if you ever see a deep 477 00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:40,360 Speaker 1: dive written by Carry, go ahead and click it immediately. 478 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:43,639 Speaker 1: One of those writers that if anybody ever calls me 479 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 1: and is like, I'm fact checking a piece by Carry Howley, 480 00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 1: I'd like to ask you a few questions, I will 481 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:48,960 Speaker 1: be very concerned. 482 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:54,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, but can confirm it is so well written. It 483 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 2: was like a joy to read, even like setting the 484 00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:02,359 Speaker 2: content aside, just the pro the writing. It was refreshing, 485 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:03,320 Speaker 2: It was really nice. 486 00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:06,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, totally agreed. So I hate to see Kerrie being 487 00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:09,960 Speaker 1: attacked in this way. Huberman retained the crisis PR firm 488 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 1: called Scale Strategy. Fun fact, Scale Strategy is brought to 489 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:16,520 Speaker 1: us by one of the guys who handled the disastrous 490 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:20,760 Speaker 1: We Work IPO and was fired soon after. So one 491 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:24,840 Speaker 1: of the folks who might be on Huberman's crisis PR 492 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:28,480 Speaker 1: campaign to navigate the fallout of this article. Something else 493 00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:31,480 Speaker 1: I have seen is that a lot of his loudest 494 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:36,000 Speaker 1: defenders are saying, well, if Huberman has been juggling hot 495 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:38,840 Speaker 1: women this effectively, it means that the methods that he 496 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 1: preaches on the podcast must be effective. Like he's really 497 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:46,600 Speaker 1: like a masculine guy. That they're applauding what he has 498 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:50,680 Speaker 1: been accused of doing, and that makes him more likable 499 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 1: in their eyes. And that is what I mean. Like, 500 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:55,280 Speaker 1: that's the thing that I think that we're not coming 501 00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:58,800 Speaker 1: right out and saying directly. I think that casual misogyny 502 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:03,639 Speaker 1: and sexism and gaslighting women and demanding submission of women. 503 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:07,399 Speaker 1: I think all of this stuff isn't something that the 504 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:10,200 Speaker 1: audience that he has cultivated is it all bothered by. 505 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:12,879 Speaker 1: In fact, quite the opposite. I think to them, this 506 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:14,600 Speaker 1: is a feature, not a bug. I think that they 507 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:17,439 Speaker 1: like this. I think that like the way he is 508 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:21,479 Speaker 1: accused of treating these women is not removed from the 509 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:24,080 Speaker 1: content that he makes on the podcast. I think it's 510 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 1: all one big, intricate, quilled and I think it's all related. 511 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:34,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, And the fact that they aren't more bothered by 512 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:37,520 Speaker 2: the deception that is at the very root of it 513 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 2: is worrisome and unfortunate. You know, people can have different 514 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:46,440 Speaker 2: ideas about what dating and relationships and life should look like. 515 00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:49,320 Speaker 2: But I feel like most people that I know in 516 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:52,800 Speaker 2: my personal life, even people who like have different political 517 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 2: and social views than me, most people agree that deception 518 00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 2: is bad and you shouldn't use it. And it feels 519 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:03,680 Speaker 2: like there's something going on where public figures get a 520 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:08,120 Speaker 2: pass on that that people would not allow peers or 521 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:10,240 Speaker 2: acquaintances in their everyday life. 522 00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:13,040 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. I mean, I would argue that we 523 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:17,040 Speaker 1: are kind of in a golden era of scammers, where 524 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:21,400 Speaker 1: people are willing to close their eyes to the way 525 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:24,480 Speaker 1: that the people that they follow, the people that they 526 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:27,600 Speaker 1: have upheld as aspirational, they are very willing to close 527 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:29,959 Speaker 1: their eyes to the way that those people are moving 528 00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:31,960 Speaker 1: right in front of their faces in a way that 529 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:34,800 Speaker 1: is deceptive. Like this is a weird analogy, but there's 530 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:40,240 Speaker 1: this young black Mormon treadwife influencer who is really famous 531 00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:45,200 Speaker 1: for making videos of her like baking in ball gowns 532 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:47,480 Speaker 1: to show off how much money she has, like shopping 533 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:50,160 Speaker 1: and blah blah blah. And I got into an argument 534 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:52,920 Speaker 1: on Threads with somebody, another black woman about this, and 535 00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:54,960 Speaker 1: she was like, people are hating on her because they 536 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:58,200 Speaker 1: hate to see a black woman live a life of luxury, 537 00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:00,320 Speaker 1: and like that's what she's doing and she's like being 538 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:01,960 Speaker 1: a good mom and people just hate to see that. 539 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:03,320 Speaker 1: When it's a black woman, and I was like, well, 540 00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:04,959 Speaker 1: I'm a black woman, and I don't hate to see that, 541 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 1: but this woman is a contact creator. The whole thing 542 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 1: is like artifice to make her money. This is just 543 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:14,360 Speaker 1: how she lives her life. It's by nature performative. So like, 544 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:17,040 Speaker 1: I wasn't like getting down on this woman, but I 545 00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:18,840 Speaker 1: was just saying, like, let's be honest. If this woman 546 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:21,360 Speaker 1: is a contact creator, she is setting up a tripod 547 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:24,320 Speaker 1: and lighting and wearing a specific outfit to do something 548 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,160 Speaker 1: performative to make money. That's just what it is. And 549 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 1: you would have thought that I called this woman a 550 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:31,959 Speaker 1: bad name. She was like, how dare you say that? 551 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 1: And I was like, it's obviously performative. I don't even 552 00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:37,400 Speaker 1: think that the woman in the videos would be like, oh, 553 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:40,720 Speaker 1: this is a realistic depiction of my life as someone 554 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,440 Speaker 1: who makes food for my kids. Like I just couldn't 555 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:47,080 Speaker 1: believe that an adult would be so willing to play 556 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:50,640 Speaker 1: into the scam that is so obviously unfolding in front 557 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:52,479 Speaker 1: of her. Not to say this woman is scamming, but 558 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:56,640 Speaker 1: I was surprised to see an adult unwilling or unable 559 00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:00,000 Speaker 1: to call this what it was, a money making inner. 560 00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:03,800 Speaker 1: Do you know what I'm saying, I do. Yeah, Like, 561 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:05,640 Speaker 1: why was it so important to her that this woman 562 00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:10,640 Speaker 1: be deemed authentic and not performative? What is lost if 563 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,960 Speaker 1: you acknowledge the obvious truth that this is a performance 564 00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:14,600 Speaker 1: to make money. 565 00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:26,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a good question and maybe one for another episode. So, Bridget, 566 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:30,240 Speaker 2: I know that you like, this story really got you. 567 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:34,239 Speaker 2: You read a bunch of stuff. You kept writing and 568 00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:37,280 Speaker 2: writing and writing and writing, and thank you for doing 569 00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:39,880 Speaker 2: all that. Let's land this plane and bring it home. 570 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:41,920 Speaker 2: What is it about this story that really speaks to you? 571 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,160 Speaker 1: I think the story speaks to me for a lot 572 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:51,200 Speaker 1: of reasons. I think the response it demonstrates how siloed 573 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:56,880 Speaker 1: and how charged everything is that you can't even you know, 574 00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:00,320 Speaker 1: deal with this story on its merits or like out 575 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:02,520 Speaker 1: the pieces that you might think, like, well, well that's 576 00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:04,760 Speaker 1: to be something that the only way that people who 577 00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:06,680 Speaker 1: are detractors of it can engage with it is as 578 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:07,200 Speaker 1: a hitchub. 579 00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:08,160 Speaker 3: Two. 580 00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:12,360 Speaker 1: This is so maybe so petty, but like it bumms 581 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:14,320 Speaker 1: me out that this is what the podcast space looks 582 00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:17,360 Speaker 1: like sometimes that it's like it's such a space where, 583 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:21,160 Speaker 1: through marketing and a certain kind of language and appeal, 584 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:27,440 Speaker 1: people can really build huge, powerful platforms that maybe when 585 00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 1: you look a little closer or are not so great, 586 00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:33,160 Speaker 1: and maybe you look even closer, maybe they're a little 587 00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:36,480 Speaker 1: bit dangerous. And so I think that's my main takeaway 588 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,920 Speaker 1: is that I think that we all deserve good content, 589 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:43,120 Speaker 1: like if you care about what you put in your body. 590 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:45,600 Speaker 1: Part of that, I think is that we deserve like 591 00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:49,880 Speaker 1: good information, and we deserve good information from people who 592 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:52,960 Speaker 1: are not liars. And it sounds like from reading this 593 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:57,520 Speaker 1: piece that Hubanman might be somebody who is so invested 594 00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:01,640 Speaker 1: in personal myth making and brand building and enrichment that 595 00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:06,040 Speaker 1: he might be someone who is at risk for their 596 00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:09,920 Speaker 1: platform causing some harm. And I think we got to 597 00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:10,479 Speaker 1: look out for that. 598 00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:13,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, totally agree. 599 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:16,640 Speaker 1: Well, Mike, you were in the document, my research document. 600 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:18,560 Speaker 1: When you saw it, it was five pages long, and 601 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:19,920 Speaker 1: then when you clicked in this morning you were like, oh, 602 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:23,440 Speaker 1: it's eleven pages. No, I could have kept going. Thank 603 00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:26,560 Speaker 1: you for diving into all of this with me and listeners. 604 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:29,240 Speaker 1: I want to hear your thoughts. Are you a Huberman 605 00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:33,280 Speaker 1: husband or someone a follower of Daddy Huberman that's what 606 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:35,320 Speaker 1: they call him on TikTok. I want to know. We 607 00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:37,280 Speaker 1: can hit us up at Hello at tango dot com. 608 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:40,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm also so curious if you listen to our 609 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:43,920 Speaker 2: show and you also listen to Huberman's show, we would 610 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:46,280 Speaker 2: love to hear your take. I know that there's a 611 00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:48,240 Speaker 2: lot of good people who get a lot of value 612 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:51,280 Speaker 2: out of his content, and so would just love to 613 00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:53,240 Speaker 2: hear your take about this. Please let us know. 614 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 1: Agreed, hit us up. 615 00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:56,520 Speaker 2: Thanks for having me, Bridget. 616 00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:56,760 Speaker 3: Thanks Mike. 617 00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:03,720 Speaker 1: Got a story about an interesting thing in tech or 618 00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:05,640 Speaker 1: just want to say hi? You can reach us at 619 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:08,360 Speaker 1: hello at tangody dot com. You can also find transcripts 620 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:10,840 Speaker 1: for today's episode at tengody dot com. There Are No 621 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:13,000 Speaker 1: Girls on the Internet was created by me Bridget Todd. 622 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:16,800 Speaker 1: It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative Jonathan Strickland 623 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:19,560 Speaker 1: is our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and 624 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:23,359 Speaker 1: sound engineer. Michael Amado is our contributing producer. I'm your host, 625 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:26,160 Speaker 1: Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate 626 00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:29,960 Speaker 1: and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, 627 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:32,360 Speaker 1: check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 628 00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:33,360 Speaker 1: get your podcasts.