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Speaker 1: Also media, Ah, what's Dick my Cheney's This is Behind

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Speaker 1: the Bastards, a podcast where every week we talk about

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Speaker 1: the great decisions being made by the Democratic Party, which

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Speaker 1: this week includes really really burnishing their Dick Cheney credentials.

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Speaker 1: We'll see how that works out in about three weeks

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Speaker 1: with me to talk about, you know something related to

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Speaker 1: this election is our lovely Yeah, is our lovely guest

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Speaker 1: today A contributing writer at Rolling Stone and contributing editor

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Speaker 1: at Wired, Noah Shackedman. Noah, welcome to the podcast program show.

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Speaker 2: You gave this very confused look in between. My first

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Speaker 2: and last name was over time.

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Speaker 1: I wrote your the stuff you wanted me to, because

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Speaker 1: we have a different intro for you this time. I

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Speaker 1: wrote it up at the top of the piece, And

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Speaker 1: so the top of the piece is just the words

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Speaker 1: Peter Teel because that's the sub of our episodes. So

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Speaker 1: at the top of my article it says contributing writer

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Speaker 1: Rolling Stone, contributing editor at Wired, Peter Teal And wait

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Speaker 1: a second while, so I had to like catch my

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Speaker 1: brain and fix it in between.

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Speaker 2: Look, I welcome my new colleague.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Peter Teel would be a great guest on the program.

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Speaker 1: But I wouldn't do Peter Teal for the you know what,

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Speaker 1: I might do Dick Cheney for the Peter Teal episode

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Speaker 1: about who does me? Yeah, Peter Teal? Noah oh Man,

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Speaker 1: So yeah, Noah. How do you feel about being friendly

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Speaker 1: with Dick Cheney. It's a good decision. Is this going

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Speaker 1: to work out for the Harris campaign?

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Speaker 2: You know?

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Speaker 1: Uh?

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Speaker 2: I am not incredibly bullish on the old befriending war

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Speaker 2: criminal campaign strategy.

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Speaker 1: It's the it's an impart a decision you make if

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Speaker 1: like you don't understand Republicans because like I grew up loving,

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Speaker 1: like with a family that loved George W. Bush right,

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Speaker 1: Like he was a hero in my household as a kid,

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Speaker 1: and no one liked Dick Cheney, Like they didn't hate him,

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Speaker 1: but like he was not a figure of admiration to

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Speaker 1: anyone in my family, like because he was. That was

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Speaker 1: kind of the point of Dick Cheney is he was

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Speaker 1: like the guy behind the scenes that you don't need

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Speaker 1: to like very much. It's just confusing to me that

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Speaker 1: they think there's a bunch of Republicans out there who

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Speaker 1: will change their vote based on this.

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Speaker 3: It was wild at the DNZ how credible it was

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Speaker 3: that this rumor that George W. Bush was going to

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Speaker 3: come out and speak at the DNC.

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Speaker 1: I would have lost my mind.

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Speaker 4: Everyone was like, Oh, he's coming, He's coming.

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Speaker 2: It was.

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Speaker 3: It was like more credible than Beyonce.

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Speaker 1: It's happening here. Yeah, there's there's still time. There's still time,

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Speaker 1: and you know who. I don't know if he's he's

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Speaker 1: got a chance to be worse than George W. Bush.

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't say he's there yet. Peter Teal, Peter Tele Uh,

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Speaker 1: And that's what we're going to talk about when we

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Speaker 1: come back from the cold open to warm things up

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Speaker 1: a little bit. Noah, so we're back, Peter Teal, how

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Speaker 1: would you describe in brief if someone is like, hey,

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Speaker 1: I hear there's this Peter tele guy who's influencing elections

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Speaker 1: or whatever. Who is he? How would you describe Peter Teal?

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Speaker 1: What would be your like elevator, Like, Oh, that's who

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Speaker 1: this guy is.

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Speaker 2: He's like the power behind like the weirdest curtain.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I guess this is how I would describe it, like

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Speaker 2: deeply strange, deeply influential. I think it would be my

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Speaker 2: elevator pitch.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, he's I would say, like, he's the guy

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Speaker 1: whose money is responsible for getting Oh shit, what's his name?

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Speaker 1: The hillbilly jd Vance started. He's the guy who you know,

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Speaker 1: like backed Trump pretty early on in twenty sixteen. He

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Speaker 1: was the you know, the billionaire who came up and

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Speaker 1: endorsed him at the RNC that year and talked about

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Speaker 1: how like he was supporting the Republicans as a gay man.

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Speaker 1: These are all glad about Peter Teeter.

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Speaker 3: I'm really glad you're able to forget jd Vance's name

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Speaker 3: like that. That feels That feels healthy to me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. It took a lot of work and a lot

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Speaker 1: of gas station substances, but I managed to do it,

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Speaker 1: and managed to do it. It was mixing the kraton

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Speaker 1: Clemato and then one of those yellow jackets truckers take together.

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Speaker 1: I reached a state of what I think the Buddhists

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Speaker 1: called nirvana, and yeah, all knowledge of jd Vance fled

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Speaker 1: from my mind.

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Speaker 2: Dude, I'm gonna fucking throw up on a keyboard. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I mean, it seems like it's like in the weirdo

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Speaker 2: crypto fascist right, if you follow the roots down far enough, it.

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Speaker 1: All comes back to Peter. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And there's a couple of ways of looking at Tel.

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Speaker 1: One of them is he is a capitalist Lenin, And

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Speaker 1: what I mean by that, I'm not comparing the two

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Speaker 1: like ideologically, but Lenin is a guy who grew up

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Speaker 1: kind of in the upper middle class strata of his

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Speaker 1: society and from an extremely early age hated the system

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Speaker 1: that he lived under because his brother was killed by

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Speaker 1: the czar, and dedicated himself to its destruction, and he

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Speaker 1: went about destroying that system very methodically and very effectively. Right,

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Speaker 1: Peter is a guy who grew up in the upper

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Speaker 1: middle class strata of his culture always seems to have

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Speaker 1: hated the systems that ran the country he lived in,

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Speaker 1: and dedicated himself from an early age at getting resources

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Speaker 1: and then kind of methodically destroying the system, which is

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Speaker 1: representative democracy, that he lived under. That's one way of

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Speaker 1: looking at Peter. The other is that Peter is a

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Speaker 1: guy who is fairly intelligent, has okay instincts, but not

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Speaker 1: as good as he thinks they are, and he's just

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Speaker 1: kind of been careening from point to point, making gambles

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Speaker 1: that have led him to this position where he is

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Speaker 1: now backing the Republicans to the hilt in order to

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Speaker 1: hopefully crumble the system of democracy enough that like he

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Speaker 1: gets to rule his own little bitty city somewhere on

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Speaker 1: the West coast, right, Like one of them is Peter

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Speaker 1: Teel is the master Plotter, and the other is that

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Speaker 1: he's this kind of like reactive figure. And I don't

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Speaker 1: actually know which is the better way to look at

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Speaker 1: this guy is some of it's got to come down

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Speaker 1: to like personal preference. But he's an interesting character, and

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Speaker 1: I think he's probably, of all of the figures on

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Speaker 1: the right now, one of the ones that it's more

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Speaker 1: it's easiest to kind of respect at an intellectual level

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Speaker 1: because he's very smart and he's succeeded in a lot

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Speaker 1: of his Like the reason why the master Plottery thing

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Speaker 1: kind of has a lot of traction is he's been

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Speaker 1: very successful in a lot of his goals over time,

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Speaker 1: Like he's been willing to, he's been able to. He

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Speaker 1: has a degree of like focus and discipline that's fairly

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Speaker 1: rare on the right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's pretty weird, wells, isn't he also like drinking

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Speaker 2: the blood of younger people or something like that.

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Speaker 1: We're going to talk about that later on in the series.

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Speaker 1: It's unclear to me if he's ever drank any young

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Speaker 1: people's blood, but he's definitely been accused of it and

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Speaker 1: has like expressed an interest in it. I think the

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Speaker 1: guy who definitely is drinking young people's blood is Brian Johnson.

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Speaker 1: That like like rich founder dude who's obsessed with reducing

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Speaker 1: his biological age back to seventeen. He takes his son's

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Speaker 1: blood as a supplement. Really yeah, oh yeah, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean he brags about it. Yeah, Like he's very open

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Speaker 1: about that. Peter has always Peter is on the record

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Speaker 1: to say I don't do that. He was just kind

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Speaker 1: of He's invested in a lot of companies that did

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Speaker 1: anti aging stuff, some of which like we're looking into

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Speaker 1: plasma replacement, right, But it's unclear if he ever did it,

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Speaker 1: and if he didn't do it, it would be because

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Speaker 1: like he just didn't think it worked. He is a

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Speaker 1: big advocate of taking human growth hormone as an anti

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Speaker 1: aging supplement. So I think it's one of those things

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Speaker 1: where if he doesn't, if he hasn't done the young

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Speaker 1: people's blood thing, it's just because he decided the science wasn't.

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Speaker 2: There, or he's just so fucking roided out that he's.

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Speaker 1: Just yeah, the ruids have given him enough blood. There's

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Speaker 1: no more room for blood in Peter's body. So no,

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Speaker 1: Like many of the worst things on this earth, Peter

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Speaker 1: Teel began in Germany, Frankfort to be specific, where he

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Speaker 1: was born on October eleventh, nineteen sixty seven. His father, Klaus,

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Speaker 1: was a chemical engineer who the very next year, sixty eight,

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Speaker 1: got high by a consulting firm that specialized in heavy industry,

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Speaker 1: including oil and gas refining. The founder of the company,

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Speaker 1: Arthur G. McKee, had owned a series of steel foundries

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Speaker 1: in the Cleveland area, where the Teals moved in nineteen

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Speaker 1: sixty eight. So now, at this point, and I think

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Speaker 1: this is probably clue to most of our listeners, in

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixty eight, Cleveland is just a series of river

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Speaker 1: fires with some subjects attached, right Like, It's not the

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Speaker 1: city we know and tolerate today. It's nothing but the

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Speaker 1: kyah Hogan burning and a couple of soot drenched houses.

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Speaker 1: And the reason the Kyahogue is always on fire is

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Speaker 1: guys like Arthur McKee, who runs steel boundaries.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: So that is that Peter grows up with his dad

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Speaker 1: kind of working in the destroying the planet industry, Like

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Speaker 1: he's an oil and gas man working for an industrial

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Speaker 1: magnate in fucking Cleveland. So Klaus works for a firm

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Speaker 1: in Cleveland for a couple of years while he gets

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Speaker 1: his graduate degree, and in nineteen seventy one, when Peter

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Speaker 1: was four, his parents have a second child, Patrick now

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Speaker 1: tealsby biographer Max Chafkin, author of The Contrarian, which is

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Speaker 1: a book that will be a sizable source for this.

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Speaker 1: Although I do have some disagree. I think Chaefkin's a

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Speaker 1: very good writer, good biographer. There's a couple of areas

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Speaker 1: where I disagree with them that we'll talk about here.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, he has described Klaus and Peter's mom Suzanne,

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Speaker 1: as fanatical Republicans who were absolutely gaga for Nixon. That

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Speaker 1: may be true, you know, chaef Cains certainly knows more

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Speaker 1: about this than me. However, Peter disagrees with that characterization

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Speaker 1: of his parents. He doesn't seem to have considered them

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Speaker 1: to have been fanatical Republicans or religious extremists, and chaf

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Speaker 1: Can also kind of paints them as Christian like hardcore

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Speaker 1: Christian conservatives. Peter is an outspoken Christian. It's unclear to

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Speaker 1: me again, if this is just Peter disliking the description

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Speaker 1: of himself and his parents as extremists, or if this

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Speaker 1: is that Chase can you know, maybe doesn't have all

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Speaker 1: of the context. We don't get a lot of detail

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Speaker 1: about Teale's parents, so it's not perfectly clear, right. Chaefkin

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Speaker 1: describes his father as cold, bordering on cruel at times. Again,

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Speaker 1: this is a characterization Peter would disagree with, at least

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Speaker 1: publicly in terms of like stories that paint that picture

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Speaker 1: of his dad is cruel. I don't see a lot

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Speaker 1: of really good detailed evidence about it. The story that

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Speaker 1: Chafkin cites is kind of evidence of how cold and

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Speaker 1: cruel Peter's dad was. Is a story that Peter tells

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Speaker 1: a lot. Two biographers I've seen this or two interviewers

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Speaker 1: I've seen this story recounted in a couple of different

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Speaker 1: articles that interviewed Peter before Chaefgin's biography came out. And

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Speaker 1: the story is that one day, when Peter is a

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Speaker 1: little kid, like maybe four or five, he was looking

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Speaker 1: at a rug in the family home that was made

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Speaker 1: from a cow hide, and he asked his dad where

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Speaker 1: did this rug come from? And Klaus, matter of fact,

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Speaker 1: they explained that it was made from a dead cow.

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Speaker 1: Peter asked, like, what what does it mean that something's dead?

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Speaker 1: And his dad told him, quote, death happens to all animals,

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Speaker 1: all people. It will happen to me one day, it

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Speaker 1: will happen to you one day. And Chafkin describes this

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Speaker 1: as a moment of like brutal honesty, and he kind

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Speaker 1: of insinuates that it may have done some damage to Peter,

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Speaker 1: writing that he quote would return to the cow and

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Speaker 1: the brutal finality of the thing again and again, even

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Speaker 1: in middle age. Now, it does seem to be accurate

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Speaker 1: that Peter is stuck in his mind. I just don't

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Speaker 1: know that I consider that a brutal description of death.

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Speaker 1: That seems like, you know, kind of just factual, right,

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Speaker 1: Like I had a conversation with my dad about death

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Speaker 1: that wasn't all that different from this, right, Like, it

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Speaker 1: happens to everything, it'll happen to me, it'll happen to you.

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Speaker 1: Like how else do you explain death to a kid? Right?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, I mean I don't know. That feels like

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Speaker 2: pretty like a pretty weak antecedent for everything that's about

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Speaker 2: to transpire.

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Speaker 1: I think what's going on here is that Peter is

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Speaker 1: obsessed with death and dying.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: He's put a huge amount of money into like reversing

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Speaker 1: aging and anti senizence and all this kind of stuff.

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Speaker 1: So like, he clearly is a guy who's obsessed with

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Speaker 1: his own mortality, and like you're looking for evidence of

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Speaker 1: that in his childhood, and he does tell this story.

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Speaker 1: He told The New Yorker in twenty eleven that this

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Speaker 1: was a quote very very disturbing day. So obviously this

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Speaker 1: does stick in his mind. But I don't know that

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Speaker 1: that makes the case that his dad is like cold

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Speaker 1: because this I just don't see it from that anecdote.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: Obviously that's one anecdote. We're talking about a whole childhood,

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Speaker 1: So that doesn't mean that he was not cold. I

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Speaker 1: just don't I feel like what we may get from

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Speaker 1: the fact that this story fucks Peter up so much

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Speaker 1: says less about his dad and more about like who

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Speaker 1: Peter is as a person, because I think most of

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Speaker 1: us have this experience and like don't grow up dedicated

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Speaker 1: to conquering mortality, whereas kind of like, oh yeah, everything dies,

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Speaker 1: all right, well, I better figure out something I'm going

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Speaker 1: to do with my life, right yeah, yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: like gas station drugs. That was my That was my decision,

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Speaker 1: which I think if Peter had gotten into that just

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Speaker 1: by some of these trucker pills, Peter, you know, yeah,

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Speaker 1: they'll keep you, they'll keep you alive forever, as well

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Speaker 1: as HGH will. So anyway, Peter has never made peace

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Speaker 1: with death, or what he calls the ideology of the

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Speaker 1: inevitability of the death of every individual. I also love

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Speaker 1: that the ideal. It's not an ideology, man, it's just

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Speaker 1: a fact. That's like, that's like seeing some people who

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Speaker 1: are like staying back from a cliff's edge on a

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Speaker 1: windy day and be like, oh, you've fallen for the

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Speaker 1: ideology of dying in a fall.

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Speaker 3: Come on the ideal, man, the inevitability of the death

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Speaker 3: of every individual.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I've had conversations with anti seatbelt guys

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Speaker 1: about like the ideology of safety of like a nanny

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Speaker 1: state culture, and it's like, no, man, I just don't

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Speaker 1: want to diet at car crash.

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Speaker 2: This huge old libertarian right.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, as all hell. Well, you see nowadays, I

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Speaker 1: don't know if you'd call it that, but he definitely

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Speaker 1: comes out of libertarianism.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and so, and when I think of libertarians, I

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Speaker 2: think of like people who never evolved past like second

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Speaker 2: semester freshman dorm room, uh ideology, And that feels very

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Speaker 2: much like the like the the the ideology of the

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Speaker 2: inevitability of death feels very like third bong hit freshman

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Speaker 2: year dorm room.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, dude, yeah, yeah, I agree with that. You know

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Speaker 1: what I will say for libertarians, I always have to

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Speaker 1: give a little bit of pushback just because of where

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Speaker 1: I come out there. You've got your two kinds, You've

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Speaker 1: got your like dorm room. I'm gonna read fucking Murray

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Speaker 1: Rothbard and basically become a fascist whenever anyone suggests I

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Speaker 1: pay my fair share in taxes Libertarians, which Peter is no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: My kind the kind that I respect are I'm not.

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't say I'm there now, but I have I

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Speaker 1: do have a degree of respect and love for Like

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Speaker 1: after the big hurricane in North Carolina, you had like

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Speaker 1: several dozen guys who owned their own helicopters and often

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Speaker 1: built their own helicopters, who like flew in just because

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Speaker 1: they're like they're like helicopter libertarians. I like my helicopter

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Speaker 1: libertarians where it's like I just don't trust the States,

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Speaker 1: so I bought my own helicopter a disaster rescue. Those

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Speaker 1: guys are fine.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, although are those the same guys that also

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Speaker 2: were the militia that tried to interfere with.

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Speaker 1: Those guys were in trucks. Those guys were in trucks.

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Speaker 1: That might be yet another different kind of libertarian Helicopterah,

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Speaker 1: we're very very pro helicopter libertarian in this ass. Those

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Speaker 1: guys are fine. So yeah, that's a Peter's like kind

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Speaker 1: of inciting incident.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: If you're making the Peter Teal movie, you started with

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Speaker 1: his dad explaining death to him while looking at this

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Speaker 1: cowhide rug. Now, shortly after that conversation, his dad decides

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Speaker 1: to move the family away from Cleveland, usually a good

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Speaker 1: decision and live every engineer's dream, which is, of course

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Speaker 1: helping South Africa build a uranium mind. You know what

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Speaker 1: engineer doesn't want to live that? So the Teal family

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Speaker 1: moves to South Africa kind of yeah, I mean they're

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Speaker 1: technically in South Africa. Peter's parents send him to an expensive,

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Speaker 1: whites only private school called Pridwin. According to the school's website,

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Speaker 1: it was founded in nineteen twenty three as a non

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Speaker 1: denominational school rooted in Christian ethics and values. Today, the

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Speaker 1: Pridwood website prominently features numerous stock photos of non white kids.

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Speaker 1: So it does seem like maybe things have been forced

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Speaker 1: to move forward there. But when Peter went there, it

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Speaker 1: would have taught racial separation as an obvious good and

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Speaker 1: a necessity. Right this is we're talking South Africa in

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Speaker 1: the seventies, right after Pridwen. Peter went to a German

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Speaker 1: language public school. He was a good student. He always

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Speaker 1: does well in school, but these are not happy years

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Speaker 1: for him, at least his chafkin paints it quote. A

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Speaker 1: picture from that era shows a sullen boy in shorts,

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Speaker 1: knickers and a tie carrying an adult sized briefcase. A

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Speaker 1: grade school classmate in Namibia, George erb recalled Teal as

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Speaker 1: smart but withdrawt. He had that distinct, striking smart look

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Speaker 1: about him, almost like he seemed bored. Rb said, we

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Speaker 1: didn't really mingle a lot with Peter in school, though

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Speaker 1: we always knew the miners' kids would not stay long

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Speaker 1: in town. Now, as he noted here, I said that

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Speaker 1: they moved to South Africa. They are, though actually not

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Speaker 1: in what in South Africa. They were in Namibia, which

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Speaker 1: a big chunk of Namibia is governed and run by

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Speaker 1: South Africa. At this point, right at the time, a

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Speaker 1: lot of what we call Namibia today was known to

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Speaker 1: South Africans as South West Africa, and it was governed

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Speaker 1: under a military occupation, as if it were essentially the

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Speaker 1: little brother of the apartheid state. The whole reason that

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Speaker 1: South Africa has a uranium mine comes down to environmental

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Speaker 1: regulations in western nations. Around this period, some of the

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Speaker 1: very earliest waves of uranium had been mined in places

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Speaker 1: like the US and Australia. But pretty quickly, once it

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Speaker 1: becomes clear that we're going to need a lot of uranium,

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Speaker 1: it also becomes clear that like uranium mining is really

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Speaker 1: bad for the environment, so we'd better do that a

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Speaker 1: lot in Africa, right, like a big bit. Actually, King

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Speaker 1: Leopold's old colony in the Cargo becomes a major source

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Speaker 1: of uranium mining, and Namibia in this period becomes the

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Speaker 1: fourth largest global producer of uranium. During the Cold War,

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Speaker 1: when we are using up quite a lot of the stuff,

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Speaker 1: so That's why South Africa is a big. Part of

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Speaker 1: why South Africa is so hesitant to give up their

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Speaker 1: occupation of Namibia is like, Namibia has a shitload of

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Speaker 1: uranium and South Africa wants that for several reasons, none

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Speaker 1: of them good. Now, the managing and engineering staff at

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Speaker 1: the mine where Klaus worked was white. The workforce were

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Speaker 1: largely migrants on one year contracts for white families. This

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Speaker 1: was a good job. You had good access to medical care,

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Speaker 1: you had nice houses. You're basically living in a company

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Speaker 1: town that is built for the white employees of this mine.

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Speaker 1: There's a country club there, there's quality schools. Things are

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Speaker 1: a lot uglier for the contract workers who are being

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Speaker 1: brought in to do a lot of the heavy lifting

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Speaker 1: at the mine. Now, much of this ugliness came from

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Speaker 1: the fact that South Africa was not allowed to be

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Speaker 1: in Southwest Namibia. Right, They are not supposed to be

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Speaker 1: occupying this chunk of Namibia. The UN had ordered them

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Speaker 1: to leave in nineteen sixty six, but by the time

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Speaker 1: the Teals moved into the country, South Africa had yet

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Speaker 1: to move their troops out. This is like nineteen seventy

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Speaker 1: to one or two, right, So they've overstayed their visa

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Speaker 1: by quite a while. But you don't really need a

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Speaker 1: visa if you have enough guns.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this whole thing is fucking grim man. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 2: parteid uranium. Mind, just fucking grim.

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Speaker 1: Peter's childhood is in an apartheid uranium mine.

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Speaker 2: Like I thought Elon Musk had liken uh kind of

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Speaker 2: like super villain origin story with the emerald mine. But

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Speaker 2: the uranium not really trumps.

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Speaker 1: Honestly, bro, I'll take an emerald mine over this any

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Speaker 1: day in a fucking week. So in nineteen seventy three,

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Speaker 1: the ICC, the International Criminal Court, upheld that you in

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Speaker 1: ruling and said again South Africa, you've got to leave Namibia.

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Speaker 1: This is not your country. What are you doing there,

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Speaker 1: to which South Africa says, we are getting a lot

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Speaker 1: of uranium and we're not going to leave. This leads

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Speaker 1: to sanctions against the sale of minerals from mine and

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Speaker 1: occupied Namibia, sanctions that are ignored by much of the West.

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Speaker 1: And I'm going to just quote read about that via

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Speaker 1: a quote I found on the website Mining Sea. The

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Speaker 1: decree warned that anyone found extracting and selling minerals from

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Speaker 1: Namibia would be held liable beneficiaries to Namibia's minerals, including

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00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:23,119
Speaker 1: Britain and the United States, except Sweden did not honor

401
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Speaker 1: the decree when uranium production from Rossing would satisfy Britain's

402
00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:30,080
Speaker 1: ten percent demand. So because uranium was so needed for

403
00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:34,359
Speaker 1: this build up, basically a lot of the West was like, no, fuck,

404
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Speaker 1: what the UN says, We're going to keep paying South

405
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Speaker 1: Africa for their uranium because we really need it right

406
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Speaker 1: tale as old as time now. The company that ran

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Speaker 1: the mine where Klaus worked as a contractor was called

408
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Speaker 1: Rio Tinto, and they had You're not going to be

409
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Speaker 1: surprised to hear that this illegal uranium mine company has

410
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Speaker 1: an evil history, but they have like a comically evil history.

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Speaker 2: I feel like I've heard a name before.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, oh yeah. So in the late nineteen thirties,

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Speaker 1: Rio Tino had called on Francisco Franco to use his

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Speaker 1: soldiers to crush left wing miners protesting against bad working

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Speaker 1: conditions in Spain. The head of the company at the

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Speaker 1: time Sir auckland Getty's, which is such an evil mine

417
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:24,800
Speaker 1: owner's name, What an amazing evil Sir auckland Getty's. Jesus

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Speaker 1: Getty's brag that quote miners found guilty of trouble making

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Speaker 1: our quote martialed and shot big fan of Franco the

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Speaker 1: leaders of Rio Tento. As another interesting side note, Noah,

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Speaker 1: Rio Tinto was also a major source of raw materials

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Speaker 1: for the Nazi rearmament campaign. These are the guys that

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Speaker 1: build the Wehrmacht back up into fighting shape. Thank God.

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Speaker 1: You know where would we be without Rio Tinto.

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Speaker 2: God?

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Speaker 1: Yes, Now, by the early seventies there were no more

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Speaker 1: Nazis to arms, so Rio said about finding their next

428
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:04,840
Speaker 1: best equivalent, which is of course s apartheid South Africa.

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Speaker 1: Right now, since they're running an illegal uranium mine and

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Speaker 1: occupied Namibia, they're like, why not go full fascist? And

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Speaker 1: they decide to operate their facilities in Namibia like a

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Speaker 1: concentration camp. And I'm going to quote from an article

433
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:23,760
Speaker 1: by the London Mining Network. Here, black workers constructing the

434
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:28,159
Speaker 1: Rossing uranium mine lived in appalling conditions in temporary camps,

435
00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:32,199
Speaker 1: which researchers found akin to slavery. By akin to slavery,

436
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:35,439
Speaker 1: it means that actually leaving work for any meaning, but

437
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:38,560
Speaker 1: being for any reason, but being dismissed by your manager

438
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:42,000
Speaker 1: was a crime, workers who misplaced or forgot their ID

439
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:45,959
Speaker 1: badge could be jailed. Now, the fact that someone might

440
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:49,240
Speaker 1: get hired to consult at such a mind doesn't imply

441
00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:51,960
Speaker 1: that they were involved with setting up or executing any

442
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:54,960
Speaker 1: of these policies, but it does suggest that one was

443
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:59,040
Speaker 1: broadly fine with them. As Max Chafkin writes, a contract

444
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:02,040
Speaker 1: laborer on the Construs Auction project, the project Klaus's company

445
00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:04,720
Speaker 1: was helping to oversee, who said workers had not been

446
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:07,040
Speaker 1: told they were building a uranium mine and were thus

447
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:10,080
Speaker 1: unaware of the risks of radiation. The only clue had

448
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:13,160
Speaker 1: been that white employees would hand out wages from behind glass,

449
00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:17,640
Speaker 1: seemingly trying to avoid contamination themselves. The report mentioned workers

450
00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:20,880
Speaker 1: dying like flies in nineteen seventy six while the mine

451
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 1: was under construction.

452
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:24,359
Speaker 2: So this is so bad.

453
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:27,000
Speaker 1: This is pretty evil.

454
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:32,160
Speaker 2: To illegal apartheid uranium mining concentration camp.

455
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:34,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's Peter's dad's job and some of his

456
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:36,440
Speaker 1: earliest memories as a kid.

457
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:41,800
Speaker 2: And he's disturbed by like Bessie the coin.

458
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:46,000
Speaker 1: What, Peter, If you want to end death, the first

459
00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 1: step might be ending illegal uranium mines. If you just

460
00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:51,959
Speaker 1: care about death as a concept.

461
00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:55,320
Speaker 2: I cannot believe how cartoonish is.

462
00:25:55,520 --> 00:26:00,639
Speaker 1: It's so funny. It's like the funniest bad story he

463
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:04,880
Speaker 1: could have just being the guy he is coming from.

464
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:07,119
Speaker 1: This is a background like a lot of these guys,

465
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 1: like Elon Musk, there's this period of time in musks

466
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:12,120
Speaker 1: backstories like, oh, well, he is this kid who's moved

467
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:15,240
Speaker 1: around about. His family sucks, his dad's this abusive monster.

468
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:18,479
Speaker 1: He's bullied as a kid. It's a really sad like

469
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:20,760
Speaker 1: I can see how he you know, there's a I

470
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:23,080
Speaker 1: can see how a couple of different kinds of kid

471
00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:24,840
Speaker 1: could have come out of this, some of them who

472
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:26,719
Speaker 1: would have been a lot better than Musk was right,

473
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:28,520
Speaker 1: Maybe he wasn't always destined to be the kind of

474
00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:31,199
Speaker 1: guy he is. With Teal, you're like, oh, yeah, no,

475
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:35,840
Speaker 1: this is this childhood. Was Taylor made to produce Peter Teal?

476
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:38,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally.

477
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:40,920
Speaker 1: You know what else was Taylor made to produce Peter

478
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:48,480
Speaker 1: Tel Noah, Yeah. The sponsors of our show are attempting

479
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 1: to breed clones of Peter Teel in a tank. It's

480
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:55,399
Speaker 1: kind of like that the fourth Alien movie, Alien Resurrection,

481
00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:58,640
Speaker 1: down to the fact that they are mixing Peter Teal's

482
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:01,960
Speaker 1: jeans with Sigourney we So let's see what happens everybody,

483
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:11,199
Speaker 1: you know, We'll see what happens. We're back and in

484
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 1: the time that we were off air, the Peter Teel

485
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:18,439
Speaker 1: Sigourney Weaver clones escaped containment in our in our our

486
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:23,199
Speaker 1: our sponsors orbital base. Things do not seem to be

487
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:31,320
Speaker 1: going well. Sorry, air, that was probably predictable. Anyway, We'll

488
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:36,000
Speaker 1: keep you updated on the situation. So we're talking about

489
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:39,440
Speaker 1: uranium mining in South Africa, which is getting South Africa

490
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:41,440
Speaker 1: in trouble. And it's one of those things where if

491
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:43,399
Speaker 1: it was if it had just been about the money

492
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:47,399
Speaker 1: South Africa could make exporting uranium, it probably wouldn't have

493
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 1: been worthwhile to piss off the whole international community to

494
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,600
Speaker 1: keep this mine open. But that's not the only reason

495
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 1: why South Africa wants the uranium mine. A big part

496
00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:00,680
Speaker 1: of why they insisted on keeping this thing operational was

497
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 1: that they are an unpopular apartheid government that is in

498
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:07,359
Speaker 1: the process of becoming a global pariah. They are dealing

499
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:11,080
Speaker 1: with something of an extential of an existential pr crisis

500
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:13,880
Speaker 1: because of all of like the racism and violence that

501
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:18,199
Speaker 1: the world is watching them do, and the white rulers

502
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:20,679
Speaker 1: of the country decided the best way for them to

503
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 1: gain long term security for the regime was to get

504
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:26,960
Speaker 1: nuclear weapons, even if they had to break international law

505
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 1: to do so. Right, And South Africa does eventually construct

506
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:34,280
Speaker 1: a handful of very illegal nukes, right. They are not

507
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:37,200
Speaker 1: supposed to have these internationally, No one's supposed to be

508
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:42,040
Speaker 1: allowed to be arming themselves with new nukes. South Africa

509
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:45,560
Speaker 1: makes their nukes and it does not, as you may

510
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:48,360
Speaker 1: be aware, keep the apartheid regime in power. You know,

511
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 1: the government does in fact fall and in a kind

512
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:56,520
Speaker 1: of unique historical case, before the government hands over power

513
00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 1: to the ANC which is, you know, the party that

514
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 1: over as apartheid goes out, they disassemble all of their

515
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 1: nuclear weapons. To this day, this makes South Africa the

516
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 1: only nation to have ever made nuclear weapons and given

517
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:16,480
Speaker 1: them up voluntarily. Obviously Ukraine receive had nuclear weapons when

518
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:20,360
Speaker 1: the USSR crumbled and gave those up. But South Africa

519
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:24,400
Speaker 1: actually like makes their own nuclear weapons independently and then

520
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 1: disassembles them and stops being a nuclear power. And that's

521
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 1: a unique thing in history. Although they do it, I

522
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 1: think mainly for reasons of racism.

523
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:35,600
Speaker 2: It's still pretty wild. I've never heard that before.

524
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:39,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's an interesting story. So while Peter's dad

525
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 1: was I don't know how you again, how you want

526
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:44,560
Speaker 1: to parse out his complicity here, but he is adjacent

527
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:46,120
Speaker 1: to some very bad things.

528
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 2: Right.

529
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 1: While his dad's doing this, Peter himself gets very little

530
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:52,360
Speaker 1: that seems to be good from his two and a

531
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 1: half three years in Africa. He mostly claims to have

532
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:58,719
Speaker 1: played alone a lot near the family house. He started

533
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:00,960
Speaker 1: to develop a habit for comp heative chess, and he

534
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:05,200
Speaker 1: became a voracious leader less than three years. After less

535
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 1: than three years away, the family decides they just haven't

536
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 1: had enough Cleveland and they move back. Yeah. Then as

537
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 1: soon as they're back in Cleveland, they're like, oh shit,

538
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 1: Cleveland is still not a great place to live. The

539
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:21,240
Speaker 1: Rivers have not stopped being on fire. So they move

540
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 1: one last time to the Bay Area. Their specific final

541
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 1: residence is Foster City, which is just northwest of San

542
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 1: Jose and south of San Francisco. Proper, it's a fairly

543
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:34,960
Speaker 1: affluent town and in the late nineteen seventies, Teals family

544
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:38,640
Speaker 1: seems like they probably would have qualified as upper middle class, right,

545
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:41,600
Speaker 1: and this is what you tend to see with the

546
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 1: first and second generation of tech industry giants. Guys like

547
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 1: Gates and Jobs all come from or move to similar

548
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:52,200
Speaker 1: parts of California, and they're all kind of at a

549
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:53,920
Speaker 1: similar level of family affluence.

550
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:54,120
Speaker 2: Right.

551
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 1: Their parents are not like rich, they're not going to

552
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:59,240
Speaker 1: inherit generational wealth, but their parents have enough money to

553
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:03,000
Speaker 1: shower their kids with attention and educational opportunities that really

554
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 1: weren't available before. And in part because of some of

555
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 1: the decisions guys like this make aren't going to be

556
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 1: available after, you know, lease not do as many kids now.

557
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:18,840
Speaker 1: In terms of the parenting situation, because Gates Bill Gates's

558
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 1: parents doting absolutely like obsessed with his development and health.

559
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:28,360
Speaker 1: Steve's parents again doting like really really like caring parents

560
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 1: who were very much focused on their child doing well.

561
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:33,920
Speaker 1: It is unclear to me how much attention Peter gets.

562
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:36,880
Speaker 1: This is kind of an open questions. It's left as

563
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 1: an open question. In Chafkin's book, Peter does not seem

564
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 1: to embrace like the claims that his parents were very

565
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:46,480
Speaker 1: strict or you know, fanatical conservatives, but we also get

566
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:48,680
Speaker 1: very little of them in his stories, right, which is

567
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 1: very different from like, Steve Jobs told a lot of

568
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:54,320
Speaker 1: stories about his parents, right, and so did Gates. So

569
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:57,280
Speaker 1: I don't really know if this is a case of,

570
00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:00,479
Speaker 1: you know, he didn't want to say much about his parents,

571
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:02,600
Speaker 1: that this is an area of insecurity form, or if

572
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:07,360
Speaker 1: it's just he's not a guy who's super talkative about

573
00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:09,880
Speaker 1: his background, which he definitely isn't you know. That may

574
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:12,640
Speaker 1: just explain it, But it does seem that his parents

575
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 1: are not kind of central to his feelings or ambitions

576
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 1: in the same way that they really seem to have

577
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 1: been for a lot of other like tech industry icons

578
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:24,920
Speaker 1: that came up in a similar place in period. We

579
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:28,080
Speaker 1: do know as a child, Peter Teel is a massive nerd.

580
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:30,959
Speaker 1: He is one of the first wave of like really

581
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 1: big nerds, and he's particularly a fantasy nerd for his

582
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:37,320
Speaker 1: kind of fantasy and sci fi. He reads The Lord

583
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:39,239
Speaker 1: of the Rings as a little kid, he falls in

584
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 1: love with Tolkien. He would later claim that he memorized

585
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:45,320
Speaker 1: the Lord of the Rings trilogy, which I suspect is

586
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 1: probably overstating things. That's a lot to memorize, Yeah, yeah,

587
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:55,200
Speaker 1: three thousand pages. Yeah, that's that might be a little much.

588
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 1: I don't know how much I believe that, but I just.

589
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 2: Remember the English or the Yet.

590
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:04,960
Speaker 1: Did he have the Elvish down? Does he know the

591
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:06,480
Speaker 1: Black speech by heart?

592
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 2: Speaks at all? Maybe folks so much? Yeah?

593
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, the very few journalists know the Black speech. As

594
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:24,000
Speaker 1: you might imagine from a kid who at least probably

595
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:27,240
Speaker 1: meant memorized passages from the Lord of the Rings, Peter

596
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:31,360
Speaker 1: gets bullied a lot, right, not super surprising from this kid.

597
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:34,680
Speaker 1: He's also very small and skinny, and according to one peer,

598
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 1: he gets pushed around a lot as a little kid.

599
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 1: This may have had something to do with what seems

600
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 1: to have been a flair for escapism. In addition to

601
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:45,640
Speaker 1: loving Tolkien, Peter is one of the very first Dungeons

602
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:48,080
Speaker 1: and Dragons players, right, He and his because D and

603
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:50,520
Speaker 1: D has just come out while he is a kid,

604
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 1: and he is he and his friends are playing it

605
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:56,560
Speaker 1: while it is very new. They they played every single weekend,

606
00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 1: and this is This may have caused a degree of

607
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:03,840
Speaker 1: life a conflict with his parents, because there are at

608
00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 1: least some stories that his parents they couldn't play, He

609
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:09,359
Speaker 1: couldn't play at his house because his parents, being very

610
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:13,440
Speaker 1: strict Christians, thought that D and D was evil. Again,

611
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 1: this is one of those things. Is that totally accurate?

612
00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:18,440
Speaker 1: I don't know. He definitely played a lot of D

613
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:19,879
Speaker 1: and D. It may have been a kind of thing

614
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:23,120
Speaker 1: that he had to skirt around his family because it is.

615
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:27,279
Speaker 1: And there's this thing that you get from Peter that

616
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 1: everyone will say about him, which is that like he's

617
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:32,719
Speaker 1: a habitual contrarian. Whatever people are doing, he has to

618
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 1: be doing the opposite. There's this big moral panic against

619
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:38,359
Speaker 1: dungeons and dragons at the time. It very much fits

620
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:40,280
Speaker 1: in with that that he would want to be playing

621
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:43,080
Speaker 1: this game that a lot of people in his life

622
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 1: and like maybe even his parents consider to be evil.

623
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:48,879
Speaker 1: That is very like fitting with the guy Peter Teel

624
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:52,000
Speaker 1: is like whatever the people around him are saying is bad,

625
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:56,040
Speaker 1: That's what Peter's going to want to do, right. Yeah.

626
00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:58,719
Speaker 1: Outside of that, his main hobby seems to have been

627
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:03,800
Speaker 1: Chess's extremely good at this. He was generally ranked number

628
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:06,080
Speaker 1: one by his school chess club. He plays a lot

629
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 1: of speed chess. He probably could have been a professional

630
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:12,239
Speaker 1: chess guy, but he has some There's some quotes he

631
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:14,360
Speaker 1: makes later where he's like, I had to choose between

632
00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:17,120
Speaker 1: chess and everything else in life, Right, I just get

633
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:20,640
Speaker 1: too obsessed with it. George Packer, writing for The New Yorker,

634
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:24,760
Speaker 1: summarizes his chest kit was decorated with a sticker carrying

635
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:27,719
Speaker 1: the motto born to Win. On the rare occasions when

636
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:30,280
Speaker 1: he lost in college, he swept the pieces off the board.

637
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:32,719
Speaker 1: He would say, show me a good loser, and I'll

638
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:35,480
Speaker 1: show you a loser. So maybe not I guy you

639
00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:40,640
Speaker 1: want to play with, right, Jesus Christ. Yeah, A little

640
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:42,879
Speaker 1: bit of a dick. This is the kind of guy

641
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:46,480
Speaker 1: who I don't know. Again, I'm a big believer in

642
00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:49,280
Speaker 1: the fact that everyone who's proud of their chess performance

643
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:52,319
Speaker 1: should get into the real game of skill. Warhammer forty

644
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:57,799
Speaker 1: thousand fish shows your real skill, Peter paint some fucking orcs?

645
00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:00,399
Speaker 2: Do you have? Born to Win?

646
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:06,480
Speaker 1: I haven't actually tattooed. You can't see it. The camera

647
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:08,880
Speaker 1: blots out my tattoos. But I've got like one of

648
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:11,440
Speaker 1: those throat tattoos. I got a sticking poke when I

649
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 1: was in prison that just says born to Win. And

650
00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:16,360
Speaker 1: it's got a picture of an orc on it. Yeah,

651
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:20,840
Speaker 1: h correct, Yeah, yeah, it's good. It really makes me

652
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 1: popular at the gaming store with the fourteen year olds.

653
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:29,880
Speaker 1: So Chaefkin has my favorite story of Peter and his

654
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:32,120
Speaker 1: chess phase because it is the one that makes me

655
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:35,760
Speaker 1: actually kind of hopeful that we can beat this guy eventually. Quote.

656
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:38,680
Speaker 1: Once at a tournament, he was playing a scrimmage match

657
00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:40,839
Speaker 1: for fun in between games and seemed to be only

658
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:44,800
Speaker 1: half paying attention. His opponent was inexperienced and not aware

659
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:48,120
Speaker 1: of what was happening, put Peter in check. Then he realized,

660
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:50,839
Speaker 1: to both of their surprise that it was checkmate. Peter

661
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:53,880
Speaker 1: became visibly distraught and was unable to regain his composure

662
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:55,960
Speaker 1: for the rest of the tournament and lost the rest

663
00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:58,440
Speaker 1: of the matches he played. A defeat, even a meaningless

664
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:03,759
Speaker 1: one was too much to handle. Yeah, okay, that's been

665
00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:05,840
Speaker 1: a little hopeful. There a little bit of motivation for

666
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:06,360
Speaker 1: you kids.

667
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:09,759
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, maybe wasn't so born to win.

668
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:13,719
Speaker 1: Yeah. So among the nerds, Peter was king. He was

669
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:16,840
Speaker 1: the most academically gifted of his friends, and I suspect

670
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:19,879
Speaker 1: was the best at doing things like cooking up overpowered

671
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:23,880
Speaker 1: characters in Dungeons and Dragons. He had a fantastic memory,

672
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:26,840
Speaker 1: and he expounded upon different short stories and novels by

673
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:29,680
Speaker 1: guys like Asimov and Clark with a faculty that would

674
00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:31,680
Speaker 1: have embarrassed most adults. He's the kind of guy who

675
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:34,840
Speaker 1: can like quote passages of stories he likes from memory.

676
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:38,000
Speaker 1: One of Peter's nerdy peers said that he and others

677
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:41,360
Speaker 1: were quote in awe of Teal, but added, I don't

678
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:44,959
Speaker 1: know that he had any close friends. So he's got

679
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:47,600
Speaker 1: like some peers, but maybe not a lot of people

680
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:52,160
Speaker 1: that he like actually entrusts any pieces of himself too

681
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:56,960
Speaker 1: in any meaningful way. Right, Again, a lonely person in

682
00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:00,080
Speaker 1: a lot of ways. Peter is genuinely described by the

683
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:02,640
Speaker 1: kids he spent time around the way wizards were in

684
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:06,400
Speaker 1: Peter's favorite fantasy novels as this like mysterious figure. He

685
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:10,480
Speaker 1: can do great and terrifying things, but who's also fundamentally

686
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:12,680
Speaker 1: separate from all of the people around him.

687
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:16,000
Speaker 2: Right, that's your characterization. You're calling him a wizard, or

688
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:17,000
Speaker 2: he called himself a wizard.

689
00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:19,279
Speaker 1: No, no, no, that's just kind of my description based on

690
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:22,200
Speaker 1: what other kids said about Peter, right that he's like,

691
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:24,600
Speaker 1: we're in awe of him. He could do all these

692
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:27,480
Speaker 1: amazing things, but we didn't really understand him. He seemed

693
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:30,080
Speaker 1: to be like someone who was fundamentally separate. It's kind

694
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:32,440
Speaker 1: of like the way Gandolf is written in The Lord

695
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:36,279
Speaker 1: of the Rings, Right, Wizards are these like mysterious and

696
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:38,920
Speaker 1: kind of frightening figures that you can't ever really get that,

697
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 1: Like they're kind of a knowable in certain senses. Right,

698
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:45,080
Speaker 1: That's just kind of the way other kids talked about.

699
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:48,760
Speaker 2: Peter seems more Seramone than Gandolph.

700
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:50,720
Speaker 1: He's definitely I mean, he's going to build a company

701
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:54,200
Speaker 1: named Palette here, so yeah, that's probably a fair fair note.

702
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:54,319
Speaker 2: No.

703
00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:59,360
Speaker 1: As he became a teenager, the bullying changed from physical

704
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:02,759
Speaker 1: violence to sillier shit that was also calculated to make

705
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:06,279
Speaker 1: him feel unwelcome and othered. One example would be that

706
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:09,759
Speaker 1: a group of kids frequently stole for sale signs from

707
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:12,959
Speaker 1: around the neighborhood and set them up on Peter's lawn,

708
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:14,759
Speaker 1: and then they would harass them about it the next

709
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:17,359
Speaker 1: day school, being like, hey, when are you moving right,

710
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 1: and like that actually legitimately does suck, Peter, if you're listening,

711
00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:24,480
Speaker 1: that's like a really shitty thing this kids did to you.

712
00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:27,279
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, that's a bummer, you know, you can like

713
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:30,520
Speaker 1: that's that's kind of like probably more devastating than the

714
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:34,759
Speaker 1: physical violence like people stealing lawn signs to like make

715
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:38,480
Speaker 1: it clear we want you and your family to leave. Like, yeah,

716
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:41,160
Speaker 1: I can see, I can see how that feeds into

717
00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:46,320
Speaker 1: a guy becoming like Peter is. By the time the

718
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:49,680
Speaker 1: high school years come around, You've got this kind of

719
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 1: misanthropic genius who spends his free time escaping reality and competing,

720
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:57,000
Speaker 1: you know, in order to show everyone how smart he is,

721
00:39:57,120 --> 00:39:59,760
Speaker 1: right when he's The only times he wants to engage

722
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:02,279
Speaker 1: with a people is when he can beat them in

723
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 1: a contest of wits. Otherwise he likes to kind of

724
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:09,960
Speaker 1: focus on his fantasy worlds. One friend described his general

725
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:14,400
Speaker 1: attitude as fuck you world. Now. I think we all

726
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 1: knew or were to some degree, kids like that. Right,

727
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:19,680
Speaker 1: this is going to sound very familiar, like as a

728
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:22,840
Speaker 1: kid who grew up like bullied and nerdy. Aspects of

729
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:24,040
Speaker 1: this are familiar to me.

730
00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:25,640
Speaker 2: Sure.

731
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:29,719
Speaker 1: Peter also, it's interesting maintains this attitude while managing to

732
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:32,239
Speaker 1: be the best student in his school. Right, he is

733
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:35,919
Speaker 1: going to be the valedictorian. He's an exceptional student academically,

734
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:39,640
Speaker 1: so he has both this kind of anger at normal

735
00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:43,440
Speaker 1: kids and the world around him, and also this attitude

736
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:46,360
Speaker 1: that's reinforced by the social structures of his world, that

737
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:50,919
Speaker 1: like he's better than everyone else in an important way. Now,

738
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:55,760
Speaker 1: his classmates, interviewed by Chaefgins, seem to suggest that Peter

739
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:58,279
Speaker 1: and kind of everyone at their school are obsessed with

740
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:00,920
Speaker 1: getting like this. This is a school where the kids,

741
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:03,440
Speaker 1: you know, their parents are high achievers. Everyone is obsessed

742
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:06,759
Speaker 1: with getting into good colleges. This was seen as the

743
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:09,759
Speaker 1: past of success at the time, and Peter's parents, if

744
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:12,879
Speaker 1: they were strict, were probably pushing him hard to get

745
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:15,240
Speaker 1: the best grades possible so that he could get into

746
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:17,480
Speaker 1: the best school. Right. This is and this is going

747
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:20,080
Speaker 1: to be important later he grows up being told by

748
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:22,640
Speaker 1: all the authority figures in his life what matters most

749
00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:25,360
Speaker 1: is getting into a good college. Right That is like

750
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:28,240
Speaker 1: the number one priority you have to have as a kid.

751
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:31,239
Speaker 1: I don't know when I went to school that was

752
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:33,640
Speaker 1: the priority that was really rammed home to me by

753
00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:35,759
Speaker 1: my parents. So I don't have trouble believing that this

754
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:39,080
Speaker 1: is the case for Peter, and it's He's going to

755
00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:41,560
Speaker 1: get very angry at this later in his life. This

756
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:43,839
Speaker 1: is going to be a major motivating factor in his

757
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:47,000
Speaker 1: life the idea that like he was forced to value

758
00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:51,759
Speaker 1: higher education, which he fundamentally thinks is not a valuable

759
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:54,160
Speaker 1: thing in the same way that his parents did, and

760
00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:56,640
Speaker 1: he's really angry about it. He's kind of never forgiven

761
00:41:56,680 --> 00:42:01,000
Speaker 1: the concept of academia for this. He graduates in eighty

762
00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:05,080
Speaker 1: five as the valedictorian of San Mateo High. During the

763
00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 1: later years in public school, he had moved on from

764
00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:12,640
Speaker 1: Tolkien and Asimov to Einrand, And you know, this kind

765
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:16,360
Speaker 1: of helps nurse the strain of vigorous anti communist sentiment

766
00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:18,719
Speaker 1: that would have you know, this would have been a

767
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:22,920
Speaker 1: part of his upbringing. Anyway, We're talking like Silicon Valley

768
00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:26,120
Speaker 1: in the seventies. You know, it's a lot of defense

769
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:29,640
Speaker 1: industry stuff is out there. It is not a radical

770
00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:33,399
Speaker 1: left hotbed. So he probably didn't need the Iron Rand

771
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:36,280
Speaker 1: to make him into an anti communist, but this definitely

772
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:40,399
Speaker 1: makes him into like a libertarian anti communist. During one

773
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:43,640
Speaker 1: article in twenty eleven, he described his ideology as so

774
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:46,919
Speaker 1: strictly libertarian that for a time he was against all

775
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:51,640
Speaker 1: government spending, which he's not now he's very supportive of

776
00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:54,160
Speaker 1: like the government spending money to research how rich people

777
00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:56,440
Speaker 1: can live longer. So that's that's good. It's nice to

778
00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:57,439
Speaker 1: see that people can grow.

779
00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:00,359
Speaker 2: Yeah.

780
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:04,120
Speaker 1: Yeah. You know who else has evolved since since the

781
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:07,279
Speaker 1: last time we talked about them is the sponsors of

782
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:10,399
Speaker 1: this podcast. You know, they're moving past their their their

783
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:15,320
Speaker 1: mistakes of like twenty minutes or so ago, losing control

784
00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:18,759
Speaker 1: of that orbital habitat to the Peter Teal clones, and

785
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:22,600
Speaker 1: they're moving on, you know, to to greater pastures, blowing

786
00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:25,840
Speaker 1: up that orbital habitat primarily. So we'll check back in

787
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:34,359
Speaker 1: with them later and we're back. Noah, have you seen

788
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:37,960
Speaker 1: Alien Resurrection? To these alien resurrection jokes? Hitting I don't

789
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:38,840
Speaker 1: know if anyone seen that.

790
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:43,040
Speaker 2: Remember, I'd like, I cannot recall this alien movie, and

791
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:47,120
Speaker 2: I thought, like, I feel like I saw some spin

792
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:53,560
Speaker 2: off with like a Roman name, like, oh God, Prometheus.

793
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:55,279
Speaker 1: Is that Prometheus? Yes? No, that's that's one of the

794
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:59,439
Speaker 1: ones that was made by Ridley Scott. Again though, see

795
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:03,080
Speaker 1: this was the the fourth Alien was the alien movie

796
00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:05,560
Speaker 1: that was written by Joss Whedon as kind of a

797
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:09,200
Speaker 1: backdoor pilot for Firefly. It's a very strange movie, but

798
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:10,680
Speaker 1: it's got Ron Pearlman in it.

799
00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:14,279
Speaker 2: I don't know what to say in response to any

800
00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:14,920
Speaker 2: of these words.

801
00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:17,840
Speaker 1: No one knows what to say in response to Alien Resurrection,

802
00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:22,839
Speaker 1: other than it's the fourth movie in the Alien series, so.

803
00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:25,279
Speaker 2: What will take You?

804
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:29,720
Speaker 1: Probably shouldn't have hung so many jokes on the fourth

805
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:33,080
Speaker 1: Alien movie you watching.

806
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:36,520
Speaker 2: I feel like if you're hanging Alien jokes, it's going

807
00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:38,480
Speaker 2: to end with, you know, game over man.

808
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:43,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's that I am the Hudson in this series.

809
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:46,239
Speaker 1: Like I'm realizing that I've led us, I've gotten us

810
00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:48,600
Speaker 1: into a or we're in this horrible disaster that I'm

811
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:50,279
Speaker 1: not going to get out of, and now I'm just

812
00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:54,080
Speaker 1: firing my gun blindly at the ceiling, trying to escape.

813
00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:56,200
Speaker 3: No, and I have no idea what you're talking about.

814
00:44:56,239 --> 00:44:58,719
Speaker 1: But someone in this he just brought up Hudson. Someone

815
00:44:58,719 --> 00:44:58,960
Speaker 1: in the.

816
00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:01,720
Speaker 3: Subred it will be really excited that you're just keeping

817
00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:03,959
Speaker 3: going on this. Oh my god, someone.

818
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:08,280
Speaker 1: It really is game over man, Game over, game over unbelievable.

819
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:12,960
Speaker 1: So one particularly baffling segment from the Chafkin book involves

820
00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:16,240
Speaker 1: Peter's senior yearbook quote, which he credited to the hobbit,

821
00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:20,000
Speaker 1: the greatest adventure is what lies ahead today and tomorrow

822
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:23,440
Speaker 1: are yet to be said. Now, you know, that seems

823
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:26,400
Speaker 1: like something a nerdy kid would do, And that's a

824
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:29,680
Speaker 1: perfectly fined yearbook quote. I would go so far as

825
00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:32,839
Speaker 1: to say maybe even a little like stereotypical. But when

826
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:35,080
Speaker 1: it comes up in Chafkin's book, chaef gin Actually, this

827
00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:37,160
Speaker 1: is one of the areas where I think his analysis

828
00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:39,600
Speaker 1: of Peter is a little unfair. Here's what Chafkin writes

829
00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:43,000
Speaker 1: about Peter putting that quote in his yearbook. Years later,

830
00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:46,200
Speaker 1: he'd say that he memorized the entire passage, which continues

831
00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:48,960
Speaker 1: the chances, the changes are all yours to make. The

832
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:50,920
Speaker 1: mold of your life is in your hands to break.

833
00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:53,959
Speaker 1: It would become, in a way, the motto of his life,

834
00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 1: though it was still at this point a confused life.

835
00:45:56,560 --> 00:45:58,919
Speaker 1: The passage is not in fact from Tolkien, who wrote

836
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:00,600
Speaker 1: The Hobbit as well as the load of the Rings

837
00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:03,879
Speaker 1: trilogy books Teal obsessed over. It's from a theme song

838
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:07,440
Speaker 1: written by Jules Bass, creative genius behind the nineteen eighties

839
00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:10,600
Speaker 1: cartoon ThunderCats for the animated version of The Hobbit, which

840
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:14,680
Speaker 1: came out in nineteen seventy seven. Now, I think maybe

841
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:17,440
Speaker 1: because it's not clear to me that Peter was being

842
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:20,319
Speaker 1: dishonest or making a mistake, Like if he quote, if

843
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:24,040
Speaker 1: he attributed that quote to the Hobbit, that quote is

844
00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:26,239
Speaker 1: from the Hobbit. It's from the Hobbit movie. But like,

845
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:28,920
Speaker 1: I don't know if you'd necessarily care to be that

846
00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:32,279
Speaker 1: specific about this in like your fucking yearbook. Right, this

847
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:35,359
Speaker 1: isn't an essay you're writing. I think like Chafkin kind

848
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:37,800
Speaker 1: of wanted to point this out as maybe like Teal

849
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:41,080
Speaker 1: not really being a token fan or something like that.

850
00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:43,359
Speaker 1: It's kind of unclear to me. I don't think it's

851
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:46,480
Speaker 1: particularly weird that like an eighteen year old kid would

852
00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:49,799
Speaker 1: credit the Hobbit animated movie for a quote as the

853
00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:53,279
Speaker 1: Hobbit instead of like specifying that like it was it was,

854
00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:56,759
Speaker 1: you know, not the book. I think that that may

855
00:46:56,800 --> 00:47:00,719
Speaker 1: be a little bit like reaching. But anyway, I guess

856
00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:03,200
Speaker 1: you could see this as evidence that Peter wasn't a

857
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:05,799
Speaker 1: big Tolkien fan and just like the animated movies. But

858
00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:08,160
Speaker 1: to be honest, if you are quoting from the fucking

859
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:12,839
Speaker 1: Hobbit animated movie of nineteen seventy seven, you're a pretty

860
00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:14,120
Speaker 1: big Tolkien nerd.

861
00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:14,480
Speaker 2: Right.

862
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:18,160
Speaker 1: It was not a wildly popular movie, although better than

863
00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:20,520
Speaker 1: the Hobbit movies we would later get arguably.

864
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:25,600
Speaker 2: So, yeah, this whole thing seems like nerd like I

865
00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:27,520
Speaker 2: think it's a little bit of a little bit of

866
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:31,279
Speaker 2: nerd fighting. Yeah, you're not actually memorizing the.

867
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:34,160
Speaker 1: Book that was from animated movie.

868
00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:37,279
Speaker 2: How dare you? It's not even can And.

869
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:38,960
Speaker 1: He brings up that the song was written by the

870
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:41,680
Speaker 1: ThunderCats guy to kind of like make it more gents, like, man,

871
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:43,880
Speaker 1: the ThunderCats was fine, Like, we don't need to be

872
00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:46,319
Speaker 1: shipping on the ThunderCats here because of what Peter Thial

873
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:47,760
Speaker 1: does in twenty sixteen.

874
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:48,440
Speaker 2: Incredible.

875
00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:53,480
Speaker 1: Come on, man, come on, Chafkin. Look I like Chafkin.

876
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:54,759
Speaker 1: I just disagree with him.

877
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:58,319
Speaker 2: Here there's a Hobbit movie. I thought there was only

878
00:47:58,360 --> 00:47:59,359
Speaker 2: a Lord of the Rings movie.

879
00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:03,000
Speaker 1: No, there's definitely a Hobbit movie. We are we are

880
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:05,919
Speaker 1: not talking about the Peter Jackson Hobbit movie, Sophie. We're

881
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:09,799
Speaker 1: talking about the animated Hobbit movie, which is wonderful.

882
00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:12,920
Speaker 3: No, I did watch that one. I did watch that one.

883
00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:15,680
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, no, uh, I'm gonna I'm gonna recommend like

884
00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:18,480
Speaker 1: half a hit acid and just sink down into your

885
00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:19,839
Speaker 1: couch and let it happen to you.

886
00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:22,960
Speaker 2: What I know of you, you would recommend a half

887
00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:25,640
Speaker 2: a hit acid literally anything, you know.

888
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:28,600
Speaker 1: It keeps my hand steady when I'm driving, especially if

889
00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:30,800
Speaker 1: I've got a trailer. You know, I don't trust anyone

890
00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:33,839
Speaker 1: who tows on less than half a hit acid. That's

891
00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:36,959
Speaker 1: my advice. Kids out there, Yeah, going shooting? Oh man,

892
00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:49,239
Speaker 1: you don't even need tracers. So anyway, whatever I don't need,

893
00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:51,360
Speaker 1: we don't need to continue down this. Peter teal.

894
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:57,440
Speaker 2: Like reading into somebody's your book quote, yeah, is like

895
00:48:57,480 --> 00:48:58,240
Speaker 2: a little much.

896
00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:01,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe Peter didn't, specially by the animated version. And

897
00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:03,560
Speaker 1: then a yearbook editor was like, now like, we'll just

898
00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:04,920
Speaker 1: say the hobbit. It's fine.

899
00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:08,120
Speaker 2: But anyway, so that much thought into your yearbook quote,

900
00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:08,480
Speaker 2: come on.

901
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:10,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a yearbook, come on. So A much better

902
00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:13,719
Speaker 1: story of Peter actually being a weirdo, which Chaefkin does

903
00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:16,880
Speaker 1: also share, comes from one of his few female friends,

904
00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:19,560
Speaker 1: who apparently shared with Peter at some point that she'd

905
00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:22,279
Speaker 1: been the result of an unplanned pregnancy, right that her

906
00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:26,960
Speaker 1: parents had had her without meaning to. Peter wrote in

907
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:30,800
Speaker 1: her yearbook quote, I could never even hypothetically have aborted

908
00:49:30,840 --> 00:49:35,040
Speaker 1: you love Peter Teal. That is an odd thing to

909
00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:38,719
Speaker 1: write about your friend based on them sharing this with you.

910
00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:44,880
Speaker 1: That is that is an odd line. Now, I will say,

911
00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:49,000
Speaker 1: that's not a cold statement. It's just weird, right, Like

912
00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:52,080
Speaker 1: that is in a way kind of a warm statement. Right.

913
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:55,279
Speaker 1: So I don't know, it doesn't it doesn't entirely comport with,

914
00:49:55,320 --> 00:49:58,720
Speaker 1: like Peter can't connect with people, but it definitely comports

915
00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:03,160
Speaker 1: with like nobody Peter doesn't quite talk like anyone else, right,

916
00:50:03,719 --> 00:50:06,480
Speaker 1: Like nobody else would say this just to a friend.

917
00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:10,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, unless he wrote in everybody else's your book like.

918
00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:15,359
Speaker 1: That, I would have aborted you. That's everyone else's Peter

919
00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:22,600
Speaker 1: deeeal signatures. Yeah. Now, Peter was accepted by Stanford and

920
00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:25,279
Speaker 1: started his freshman year at this at the beginning of

921
00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:28,719
Speaker 1: Reagan's second term. Now, Stanford at this period was a

922
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:32,280
Speaker 1: major source of thinkers and doers among the conservative movement.

923
00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:35,319
Speaker 1: The Hoover Institution, which is a right wing think tank

924
00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:39,080
Speaker 1: on campus, gave the world Martin Anderson, who start who

925
00:50:39,080 --> 00:50:42,560
Speaker 1: helped create Reaganomics. Right, he's like the author of Reaganomics

926
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:46,040
Speaker 1: as a concept. Many Institute fellows were members of the

927
00:50:46,040 --> 00:50:50,520
Speaker 1: Reagan administration. Peter definitely seems to have like seen this

928
00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:53,440
Speaker 1: as kind of maybe the path he wanted for himself.

929
00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:56,080
Speaker 1: And even though what's interesting to me is he, because

930
00:50:56,120 --> 00:50:59,160
Speaker 1: he has this sort of emotional need to be seen

931
00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:01,840
Speaker 1: as a contrarian, is the guy going against the grain,

932
00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:05,200
Speaker 1: he will always frame higher education as time as Stanford

933
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:09,759
Speaker 1: is like this din of liberals and like leftist rivolity,

934
00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:12,480
Speaker 1: right where it's like, this is the school that gave

935
00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:16,440
Speaker 1: us the Reagan administration. Right, Like fucking Stanford is not

936
00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:19,719
Speaker 1: a hotbed of leftists. You know, there's like liberals and

937
00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:22,200
Speaker 1: leftists on campus and leftist clubs, but like one of

938
00:51:22,239 --> 00:51:25,319
Speaker 1: the most influential conservative think tanks in the countries is

939
00:51:25,440 --> 00:51:29,880
Speaker 1: based out of Stanford. Right. I think the main reason

940
00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:32,319
Speaker 1: why Peter has to kind of characterize college this way

941
00:51:32,360 --> 00:51:34,640
Speaker 1: is that he just doesn't like college, right, He doesn't

942
00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:39,239
Speaker 1: like Stanford, and he primarily seems to dislike Stanford not

943
00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:41,759
Speaker 1: because of a political thing, but because all of the

944
00:51:41,920 --> 00:51:47,359
Speaker 1: kids there acted like kids. Right. They're all teenagers, They're

945
00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:50,640
Speaker 1: not quite grown up, which is what college students are,

946
00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:54,200
Speaker 1: and this is annoying to Peter. One of his chief

947
00:51:54,239 --> 00:51:57,440
Speaker 1: bugbears was that there was a campus heide and seek game,

948
00:51:57,560 --> 00:51:59,920
Speaker 1: which made him very angry, right, the fact that other

949
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:02,680
Speaker 1: people are like, well, he's trying to learn playing hide

950
00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:06,040
Speaker 1: and seek. Peter isn't like this. He avoids most parties.

951
00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:09,759
Speaker 1: He does not date. Now. He's gay, right, and that's

952
00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:12,560
Speaker 1: certainly not nearly as acceptable a thing, even in a

953
00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:14,920
Speaker 1: place like Stanford in this period of time. So it's

954
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:17,640
Speaker 1: not exactly weird, and that may play into kind of

955
00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:20,520
Speaker 1: part of why he's so frustrated seeing all of his

956
00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:24,040
Speaker 1: peers kind of date and socialize when that is not

957
00:52:24,120 --> 00:52:26,480
Speaker 1: a thing that's safe for him. I think maybe that

958
00:52:26,560 --> 00:52:30,640
Speaker 1: does play into it to some degree. Whenever he could,

959
00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:33,120
Speaker 1: rather than hang out with anyone he met on campus,

960
00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:35,480
Speaker 1: he would go back home to hang out with his

961
00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:38,360
Speaker 1: old friends from high school. Right now, one of his

962
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:41,160
Speaker 1: Stanford peers suggests that he viewed other kids at the

963
00:52:41,200 --> 00:52:45,320
Speaker 1: school as deeply unserious. I think there's also an element

964
00:52:45,400 --> 00:52:48,480
Speaker 1: of discomfort insecurity and meeting and trying to connect with

965
00:52:48,560 --> 00:52:51,919
Speaker 1: new people. Whatever the case, Peter is the weird kid

966
00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:55,239
Speaker 1: on campus. Every morning he would leave his dorm room

967
00:52:55,360 --> 00:52:57,840
Speaker 1: and walk to the water fountain to take a huge

968
00:52:57,920 --> 00:53:00,880
Speaker 1: number of vitamins. One at a time. He seems to

969
00:53:00,920 --> 00:53:04,840
Speaker 1: do this in a way that's like deliberately exhibitionist. Classmate

970
00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:07,680
Speaker 1: Megan Maxwell alleges base that he kind of does this

971
00:53:07,719 --> 00:53:11,120
Speaker 1: to confront other kids, right to set himself apart. Everyone

972
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:14,200
Speaker 1: else is partying and drinking and doing drugs, and every

973
00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:16,880
Speaker 1: morning Peter gets out there and slowly takes all of

974
00:53:16,920 --> 00:53:20,600
Speaker 1: his supplements so everyone can see him right. Quote, it

975
00:53:20,640 --> 00:53:23,759
Speaker 1: was like a ritual. She told Chafkin he was a strange,

976
00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:27,560
Speaker 1: strange boy. I don't think she's lying there.

977
00:53:28,200 --> 00:53:29,799
Speaker 2: Yeah.

978
00:53:29,880 --> 00:53:33,080
Speaker 1: He studied philosophy at Stanford and This as an undergrad

979
00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:36,280
Speaker 1: and was particularly drawn to the work of Renee Girard,

980
00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:41,000
Speaker 1: a professor and theorist of social sciences. Girard was particularly

981
00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:44,600
Speaker 1: focused on the psychology of desire, or why people want

982
00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:47,960
Speaker 1: things and how they decide they want things. From a

983
00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:50,600
Speaker 1: twenty twenty one article in The New Yorker by Anna Weener,

984
00:53:51,840 --> 00:53:55,480
Speaker 1: Teel was particularly taken with Gerard's concept of mimetic desire.

985
00:53:55,680 --> 00:53:58,040
Speaker 1: Man is the creature who does not know what to desire,

986
00:53:58,080 --> 00:54:00,400
Speaker 1: and he turns to others in order to make up

987
00:54:00,440 --> 00:54:04,200
Speaker 1: his mind. Durro wrote, we desire what others desire because

988
00:54:04,200 --> 00:54:08,840
Speaker 1: we imitate their desires. Memetic desire involves a surrender of agency.

989
00:54:08,960 --> 00:54:11,920
Speaker 1: It means allowing others to dictate ones once, and the

990
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:16,520
Speaker 1: theory goes can foster envy, rivalry, infighting, and resentment. It also,

991
00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:20,279
Speaker 1: Duri wrote, leads to acts of violent scapegoating, which serve

992
00:54:20,360 --> 00:54:24,799
Speaker 1: to preclude further mass conflicts by unifying persecutors against a

993
00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:29,200
Speaker 1: group or individual. He thinks this is how people work, right, that, Like,

994
00:54:30,719 --> 00:54:33,480
Speaker 1: people's desires are largely based on this kind of like

995
00:54:33,640 --> 00:54:38,120
Speaker 1: herd mentality. Right, we're imitating other people's desires that we see,

996
00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:42,400
Speaker 1: We like surrender our agency to like let other people

997
00:54:42,440 --> 00:54:44,120
Speaker 1: dictate once for us. And this is kind of why

998
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:47,839
Speaker 1: scapegoating is natural and actually is kind of a necessary

999
00:54:47,960 --> 00:54:51,279
Speaker 1: thing in order to avoid further mass violence. Right, If

1000
00:54:51,320 --> 00:54:54,520
Speaker 1: you can scapegoat individuals for problems, you can avoid more

1001
00:54:54,520 --> 00:54:59,120
Speaker 1: widespread violence. I think one could kind of extrapolate this

1002
00:54:59,239 --> 00:55:02,160
Speaker 1: into Peter as a member of like the wealthy ruling class,

1003
00:55:02,239 --> 00:55:05,480
Speaker 1: seeing the scapegoating that conservatives do with migrants or trans

1004
00:55:05,480 --> 00:55:09,560
Speaker 1: people as a way to like avoid potential you know,

1005
00:55:09,760 --> 00:55:14,719
Speaker 1: mass violence against his class, right, like the wealthy. But

1006
00:55:14,800 --> 00:55:16,960
Speaker 1: maybe I'm reading a little bit too much into it there.

1007
00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:20,680
Speaker 3: This is he's the he's the scapegoat author guy. You

1008
00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:24,480
Speaker 3: see also the violence and the sacred guy Gerard. That's

1009
00:55:24,600 --> 00:55:27,280
Speaker 3: that that that actually makes so much sense.

1010
00:55:27,400 --> 00:55:29,160
Speaker 1: It makes a lot of sense. Yeah, the fact that

1011
00:55:29,200 --> 00:55:31,160
Speaker 1: this gets brought I mean, Teal brings up Gerard a lot.

1012
00:55:31,160 --> 00:55:32,800
Speaker 1: There's a lot of writing Teal has done where he

1013
00:55:32,880 --> 00:55:35,560
Speaker 1: quotes Gerard talking about memetic desire. So it is not

1014
00:55:36,480 --> 00:55:39,720
Speaker 1: Chaefgen and others, you know, because I'm quoting directly from

1015
00:55:39,760 --> 00:55:42,400
Speaker 1: Anna's article here, like they're not going on on a

1016
00:55:42,440 --> 00:55:44,880
Speaker 1: limb connecting a lot of what he does to Chafgin,

1017
00:55:44,960 --> 00:55:47,080
Speaker 1: this is like a foundational part of his thinking.

1018
00:55:47,280 --> 00:55:49,680
Speaker 3: He's the guy who who wrote a book about like

1019
00:55:49,680 --> 00:55:54,840
Speaker 3: like sacrifice rituals and he's yeah, he's this makes sense.

1020
00:55:55,280 --> 00:55:57,279
Speaker 1: I'm on board with that. I think we should do

1021
00:55:57,360 --> 00:56:02,319
Speaker 1: more human sacrifice, and I think we should. We need

1022
00:56:02,360 --> 00:56:04,560
Speaker 1: to be building more pyramids. We don't build enough. We

1023
00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:09,080
Speaker 1: built that one in a where is it Nashville? Right?

1024
00:56:09,600 --> 00:56:11,200
Speaker 1: We did have a pyramid in every city, and we

1025
00:56:11,200 --> 00:56:15,960
Speaker 1: should sacrifice people on them. That's all I'm saying. Noziggarot

1026
00:56:16,120 --> 00:56:20,480
Speaker 1: guy even gotten by big ziggurat. The brickmakers, have you

1027
00:56:20,520 --> 00:56:24,640
Speaker 1: in their thrall. There's more material in a zigguratte that's all.

1028
00:56:24,800 --> 00:56:28,800
Speaker 1: That's why they want it there to walk up to

1029
00:56:28,080 --> 00:56:29,239
Speaker 1: the walk up.

1030
00:56:29,640 --> 00:56:31,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then you can throw your human sacrifice off

1031
00:56:31,880 --> 00:56:34,359
Speaker 2: the top, Yeah don't you. Yeah?

1032
00:56:34,480 --> 00:56:38,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I do like a ziggarot, a solid

1033
00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:42,000
Speaker 1: ziggarat a good old fashioned step pyramid. Hell yeah.

1034
00:56:42,080 --> 00:56:42,319
Speaker 2: Now.

1035
00:56:42,800 --> 00:56:45,600
Speaker 1: The concept of mimetic desire and the potential use of

1036
00:56:45,680 --> 00:56:50,440
Speaker 1: violent scapegoating would remain focuses of Peter's thinking on human nature, business,

1037
00:56:50,440 --> 00:56:53,160
Speaker 1: and politics up to the present day. Two years into

1038
00:56:53,200 --> 00:56:56,600
Speaker 1: his time on campus, he started a monthly magazine, The

1039
00:56:56,640 --> 00:56:59,400
Speaker 1: Stanford Review, with one of his high school friends who

1040
00:56:59,440 --> 00:57:02,480
Speaker 1: went to college with him. The Stanford Review was a

1041
00:57:02,560 --> 00:57:06,120
Speaker 1: right wing rag. It featured articles accusing professors of being

1042
00:57:06,160 --> 00:57:10,520
Speaker 1: closet Marxists, columns complaining about non white authors and a

1043
00:57:10,520 --> 00:57:14,560
Speaker 1: Western culture class, and some very weird takes on the

1044
00:57:14,600 --> 00:57:17,600
Speaker 1: AIDS epidemic. Here's an excerpt from a column in New

1045
00:57:17,680 --> 00:57:22,520
Speaker 1: York Magazine by Chafkin. The first issue featured a satirical column,

1046
00:57:22,560 --> 00:57:25,280
Speaker 1: Confessions of a Sexual Deviant, about a young straight man

1047
00:57:25,320 --> 00:57:27,840
Speaker 1: who'd chosen to be celibate. According to the Review, it

1048
00:57:27,920 --> 00:57:31,160
Speaker 1: was almost impossible to visit a men's restroom without witnessing

1049
00:57:31,240 --> 00:57:33,680
Speaker 1: a gay sex act, or to cross the quad without

1050
00:57:33,720 --> 00:57:36,840
Speaker 1: having fistfuls of free condoms pressed into your hand. In

1051
00:57:36,920 --> 00:57:40,640
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty seven, presenting homosexuality as an addiction, a columnist

1052
00:57:40,680 --> 00:57:43,680
Speaker 1: wrote that unnatural gay men had yielded to temptations so

1053
00:57:43,760 --> 00:57:46,800
Speaker 1: many times that the fires of lust burn within them,

1054
00:57:47,120 --> 00:57:50,479
Speaker 1: making it indeed difficult for them to control themselves. During

1055
00:57:50,520 --> 00:57:53,240
Speaker 1: Teale's last year on campus, his close friend and Review

1056
00:57:53,280 --> 00:57:56,840
Speaker 1: collaborator Keith Raboy stood outside the home of a Stanford

1057
00:57:56,840 --> 00:57:59,360
Speaker 1: residential fellow and shouted at the top of his lungs,

1058
00:58:00,280 --> 00:58:02,320
Speaker 1: f ward, you are going to die of aids. You

1059
00:58:02,440 --> 00:58:05,000
Speaker 1: are going to get what's coming to you. Two days later,

1060
00:58:05,040 --> 00:58:08,320
Speaker 1: the Review published the rape issue, with an impassioned defense

1061
00:58:08,360 --> 00:58:11,680
Speaker 1: of a student who'd pleaded no contest to statutory rape.

1062
00:58:13,080 --> 00:58:17,040
Speaker 1: So he's this is he's the guy that he's going

1063
00:58:17,040 --> 00:58:18,880
Speaker 1: to be the rest of his life. By eighty seven,

1064
00:58:19,080 --> 00:58:22,919
Speaker 1: we can say that there's a lot and because Peter

1065
00:58:23,080 --> 00:58:26,680
Speaker 1: doesn't like to talk about and I, you know, we'll

1066
00:58:26,680 --> 00:58:29,160
Speaker 1: talk about the Gawker stuff later. I actually think he's

1067
00:58:29,280 --> 00:58:31,280
Speaker 1: less in the wrong on that that he tends to

1068
00:58:31,280 --> 00:58:33,000
Speaker 1: be painted as which is not to say that he's

1069
00:58:33,040 --> 00:58:35,920
Speaker 1: in the right there, but like he doesn't like talking

1070
00:58:35,960 --> 00:58:40,880
Speaker 1: about his sexuality. I get the there's like a decent

1071
00:58:41,120 --> 00:58:45,360
Speaker 1: little chunk of even even up to this day. And

1072
00:58:45,760 --> 00:58:48,200
Speaker 1: this is not exactly Peter's kind of thing. But I've

1073
00:58:48,280 --> 00:58:52,520
Speaker 1: interviewed a couple of like gay conservatives who are celibate.

1074
00:58:52,600 --> 00:58:56,520
Speaker 1: They're like catholic. They believe, they accept that they're homosexual.

1075
00:58:56,520 --> 00:58:59,440
Speaker 1: They're open about that, but they think it's immoral to

1076
00:58:59,680 --> 00:59:02,840
Speaker 1: do a thing about it because they're also extremely catholic.

1077
00:59:03,600 --> 00:59:06,720
Speaker 1: And I see shades of that at least in Peter's

1078
00:59:06,720 --> 00:59:08,800
Speaker 1: thinking here. Like the fact that he is putting out

1079
00:59:08,800 --> 00:59:13,080
Speaker 1: these articles about celibacy and about like the the unnatural

1080
00:59:13,160 --> 00:59:16,000
Speaker 1: and like evil lusts of the gay community and like

1081
00:59:16,080 --> 00:59:21,360
Speaker 1: AIDS very much feels in line with that to me here.

1082
00:59:21,600 --> 00:59:23,920
Speaker 1: But you know, we just don't get a ton of

1083
00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:27,080
Speaker 1: Peter himself talking about but you can see like he

1084
00:59:27,080 --> 00:59:30,840
Speaker 1: wouldn't be putting out these articles about like how AIDS

1085
00:59:30,920 --> 00:59:32,760
Speaker 1: is the fault, like by this guy yelling about how

1086
00:59:32,800 --> 00:59:35,640
Speaker 1: like AIDS is your fault, right if you're gay, If

1087
00:59:35,640 --> 00:59:37,520
Speaker 1: he didn't, if there wasn't an element of that in

1088
00:59:37,600 --> 00:59:38,720
Speaker 1: his thinking, right.

1089
00:59:39,760 --> 00:59:42,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, this young man is extremely broken.

1090
00:59:44,320 --> 00:59:48,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean this is this is the Yeah, the

1091
00:59:48,120 --> 00:59:50,200
Speaker 1: the fact that you're defending a guy who pled no

1092
00:59:50,320 --> 00:59:55,600
Speaker 1: contest to statutory rape, the anger about condoms over a

1093
00:59:55,640 --> 00:59:58,800
Speaker 1: guy who pled no contest to statutory rape. I don't know.

1094
01:00:00,160 --> 01:00:01,840
Speaker 2: I mean, you don't want to judge someone too much

1095
01:00:01,920 --> 01:00:05,560
Speaker 2: by their you know, corny campus newspapers.

1096
01:00:05,080 --> 01:00:06,680
Speaker 1: If they move on from it. Yeah.

1097
01:00:06,800 --> 01:00:08,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I say this as someone who started

1098
01:00:08,600 --> 01:00:09,880
Speaker 2: a corny campus newspaper.

1099
01:00:09,960 --> 01:00:10,160
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1100
01:00:10,320 --> 01:00:16,400
Speaker 2: Like, but I mean that's really it's really beyond the pale,

1101
01:00:16,400 --> 01:00:19,160
Speaker 2: and it does seem to connect to who this dude

1102
01:00:19,240 --> 01:00:22,600
Speaker 2: is later, which is like this weird like there's so

1103
01:00:22,720 --> 01:00:29,560
Speaker 2: much like like hate, both internal and external happening.

1104
01:00:30,160 --> 01:00:32,720
Speaker 1: You really get why he becomes the guy he becomes

1105
01:00:32,800 --> 01:00:36,840
Speaker 1: because so much of Peter's modern politics is like the

1106
01:00:36,960 --> 01:00:40,360
Speaker 1: right wing hating the normies, like fuck the normies kind

1107
01:00:40,400 --> 01:00:44,000
Speaker 1: of politics, and like a big part of like just

1108
01:00:44,080 --> 01:00:46,880
Speaker 1: like how much anger there is at you know, Marxists

1109
01:00:46,880 --> 01:00:49,360
Speaker 1: on campus, they're handing out columns on the quad. It's

1110
01:00:49,440 --> 01:00:53,640
Speaker 1: just like whatever he sees the people around him are

1111
01:00:53,720 --> 01:00:57,320
Speaker 1: fine with makes him angry. You know that there is

1112
01:00:57,360 --> 01:01:00,520
Speaker 1: a degree of that in being this kind of dude

1113
01:01:00,600 --> 01:01:03,919
Speaker 1: in Stanford. Of this period of time now, the late

1114
01:01:04,000 --> 01:01:06,680
Speaker 1: nineteen eighties are a period in which public rage over

1115
01:01:07,040 --> 01:01:09,720
Speaker 1: the justices of apartheid had started to reach a fever

1116
01:01:09,800 --> 01:01:12,240
Speaker 1: pitch two. Right, this is one of the most kind

1117
01:01:12,280 --> 01:01:15,320
Speaker 1: of salient public issues at the time. Is like the

1118
01:01:15,480 --> 01:01:19,040
Speaker 1: entire Western international community is kind of lining up against

1119
01:01:19,080 --> 01:01:23,160
Speaker 1: the apartheid regime. There were regular protests on campus and

1120
01:01:23,440 --> 01:01:26,880
Speaker 1: calls to divest the school from South African financial interests.

1121
01:01:27,280 --> 01:01:30,640
Speaker 1: According to one source, Peter was not supportive of this.

1122
01:01:30,720 --> 01:01:32,720
Speaker 1: He was very angry that all of the kids on

1123
01:01:32,760 --> 01:01:37,040
Speaker 1: campus are anti South Africa. And I want to read now,

1124
01:01:37,080 --> 01:01:39,760
Speaker 1: this is a very interesting chapter of his life. From

1125
01:01:39,840 --> 01:01:42,760
Speaker 1: a medium post by one of his classmates at Stanford,

1126
01:01:43,240 --> 01:01:47,400
Speaker 1: Julia Lithcott Hayms. She wrote this about an encounter in

1127
01:01:47,520 --> 01:01:50,320
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty six, and this is going to be very relevant.

1128
01:01:50,440 --> 01:01:53,840
Speaker 1: Julie is a black woman. We ran in different circles.

1129
01:01:53,920 --> 01:01:57,320
Speaker 1: His fiercely libertarian views were often a topic of conversation

1130
01:01:57,400 --> 01:02:00,080
Speaker 1: among those of us living in Branner Hall. Day I

1131
01:02:00,160 --> 01:02:03,000
Speaker 1: heard a rumor that Peter defended apartheid, which was then

1132
01:02:03,120 --> 01:02:05,320
Speaker 1: still the law of the land in South Africa, which

1133
01:02:05,360 --> 01:02:08,480
Speaker 1: I found morally repugnant to know that a fellow student,

1134
01:02:08,560 --> 01:02:10,760
Speaker 1: a dorm mate for that matter, might defend such a

1135
01:02:10,760 --> 01:02:14,280
Speaker 1: brutally oppressive race based caste system. Gave me the willies,

1136
01:02:14,520 --> 01:02:16,640
Speaker 1: but I wanted to give Peter the benefit of the doubt,

1137
01:02:16,880 --> 01:02:18,720
Speaker 1: so I mustered the courage to go to his room

1138
01:02:18,720 --> 01:02:21,840
Speaker 1: and ask him about it. He said, with no facial affect,

1139
01:02:22,160 --> 01:02:25,880
Speaker 1: that apartheid was a sound economic system working efficiently, and

1140
01:02:26,000 --> 01:02:29,160
Speaker 1: moral issues were irrelevant. He made no effort to even

1141
01:02:29,200 --> 01:02:32,240
Speaker 1: acknowledge the pain the concept of apartheid could possibly raise

1142
01:02:32,280 --> 01:02:38,120
Speaker 1: for me, a black woman. So, and it's very in

1143
01:02:38,160 --> 01:02:40,560
Speaker 1: line with the kind of like, well it works economically,

1144
01:02:40,560 --> 01:02:43,320
Speaker 1: the system is economically successful and that's all that matters.

1145
01:02:42,920 --> 01:02:49,120
Speaker 1: The moral issues are irrelevant, right, just completely that kind

1146
01:02:49,120 --> 01:02:51,959
Speaker 1: of guy.

1147
01:02:52,200 --> 01:02:54,000
Speaker 2: I mean, how much of this is just like that's

1148
01:02:54,040 --> 01:02:54,720
Speaker 2: my dad.

1149
01:02:55,080 --> 01:02:56,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I mean how much of it is that's

1150
01:02:56,520 --> 01:02:59,600
Speaker 1: my dad, And just like this reflexive contrarian thing. All

1151
01:02:59,640 --> 01:03:02,320
Speaker 1: of these kids hate South Africa. I've been there. I

1152
01:03:02,360 --> 01:03:04,680
Speaker 1: know it's actually a good system because it works economy,

1153
01:03:04,680 --> 01:03:10,080
Speaker 1: you know, which to my dad, Yeah, yeah, great stuff.

1154
01:03:10,760 --> 01:03:13,240
Speaker 1: When Julie posted this in twenty sixteen. It went sort

1155
01:03:13,240 --> 01:03:16,200
Speaker 1: of viral, and Peter issued a response through a spokesperson.

1156
01:03:16,560 --> 01:03:19,280
Speaker 1: Peter has no recollection of a stranger demanding his views

1157
01:03:19,280 --> 01:03:21,440
Speaker 1: on apartheid. He has never supported it, but he can

1158
01:03:21,480 --> 01:03:24,920
Speaker 1: easily see how a conversation might be misremembered thirty years later.

1159
01:03:26,600 --> 01:03:29,680
Speaker 1: And that's interesting, Like, I don't recall talking to this stranger,

1160
01:03:29,840 --> 01:03:31,960
Speaker 1: but you can easily see how someone could misremember the

1161
01:03:32,000 --> 01:03:32,840
Speaker 1: conversation that.

1162
01:03:32,800 --> 01:03:35,840
Speaker 2: I'm not sure happened, if I did it.

1163
01:03:36,000 --> 01:03:42,360
Speaker 1: If I did it, Yeah, Apartheid Edition. Now, obviously I

1164
01:03:42,400 --> 01:03:44,880
Speaker 1: don't know that Julie's recollection of events from thirty years

1165
01:03:44,880 --> 01:03:48,040
Speaker 1: ago is perfectly accurate. No one's are ever right. But

1166
01:03:48,080 --> 01:03:51,400
Speaker 1: there is some outside corroboration for aspects of Julie's story.

1167
01:03:51,560 --> 01:03:54,240
Speaker 1: And I'm going to quote from an article an NPR here.

1168
01:03:54,840 --> 01:03:57,760
Speaker 1: Lifke At Haymes's account of Teel's opinion about apartheid was

1169
01:03:57,760 --> 01:04:00,640
Speaker 1: backed up by Megan Maxwell, a freelance at who also

1170
01:04:00,680 --> 01:04:04,480
Speaker 1: attended Stanford with Teal. Maxwell, who was also an African American,

1171
01:04:04,600 --> 01:04:07,280
Speaker 1: told NPR that in a separate incident, Teal also told

1172
01:04:07,280 --> 01:04:10,479
Speaker 1: her that morality and governments shouldn't be connected, and that

1173
01:04:10,720 --> 01:04:13,160
Speaker 1: you shouldn't judge a government based on whether it fits

1174
01:04:13,200 --> 01:04:17,760
Speaker 1: your view of morality. I don't know, man, shouldn't shouldn't

1175
01:04:17,800 --> 01:04:21,160
Speaker 1: you like, isn't that part of how you should judge

1176
01:04:21,200 --> 01:04:24,480
Speaker 1: a government, whether or not you think it's moral.

1177
01:04:24,280 --> 01:04:28,680
Speaker 2: Should he's doing anti morality or a morality?

1178
01:04:29,120 --> 01:04:33,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, that it should just matter if it's economically efficient, right.

1179
01:04:33,240 --> 01:04:36,480
Speaker 2: And then but but then gays are bad on the

1180
01:04:36,520 --> 01:04:37,320
Speaker 2: other hand.

1181
01:04:38,480 --> 01:04:41,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, at least he's publishing other people who are writing

1182
01:04:41,320 --> 01:04:52,280
Speaker 1: about the immorality of homosexual life, right, Yeah, I think interesting, interesting, Peter. Yeah,

1183
01:04:52,320 --> 01:04:54,160
Speaker 1: part of what's going on here is like Peter is

1184
01:04:54,200 --> 01:04:57,760
Speaker 1: an outspoken Christian and he is up to the present day,

1185
01:04:58,320 --> 01:05:01,240
Speaker 1: and that means some very odd the things for a

1186
01:05:01,280 --> 01:05:06,000
Speaker 1: guy who is also like gay and a libertarian. You

1187
01:05:06,000 --> 01:05:08,120
Speaker 1: know that's going to like, Well, he's.

1188
01:05:08,240 --> 01:05:12,680
Speaker 2: Spoking Christian who doesn't believe that we should judge things

1189
01:05:12,680 --> 01:05:14,400
Speaker 2: by their morality.

1190
01:05:14,680 --> 01:05:17,280
Speaker 1: That's what he says here, because he definitely seems to

1191
01:05:17,400 --> 01:05:20,680
Speaker 1: in other instances believe that we should judge things based

1192
01:05:20,720 --> 01:05:24,040
Speaker 1: on whether or not they're his definition of moral you know.

1193
01:05:24,440 --> 01:05:27,480
Speaker 1: Part of and this is not just Peter, this is everyone.

1194
01:05:27,720 --> 01:05:31,280
Speaker 1: He's not consistent nobody is right like this. We found

1195
01:05:31,280 --> 01:05:36,120
Speaker 1: a point of inconsistency here. Sure now Peter's present political situation,

1196
01:05:36,320 --> 01:05:40,000
Speaker 1: I will say, when we're talking about his classmates talking

1197
01:05:40,040 --> 01:05:43,200
Speaker 1: about thirty years ago, you should always read any quote

1198
01:05:43,200 --> 01:05:45,680
Speaker 1: about someone like this with the perspective of like the

1199
01:05:45,720 --> 01:05:50,040
Speaker 1: fact that his modern day political stances might be deep,

1200
01:05:50,200 --> 01:05:53,880
Speaker 1: like post facto coloring people's recollections of him right as

1201
01:05:53,920 --> 01:05:57,000
Speaker 1: a kid, because nobody's memories are perfect. So I did

1202
01:05:57,000 --> 01:05:59,600
Speaker 1: go looking for other accounts of the man at Stanford,

1203
01:05:59,640 --> 01:06:01,840
Speaker 1: and I found a few from former classmates of his

1204
01:06:01,960 --> 01:06:06,120
Speaker 1: on Quora. In one post, Chris Gray recalled he was

1205
01:06:06,240 --> 01:06:09,320
Speaker 1: very interested in constitutional law and wanted to clerk at

1206
01:06:09,360 --> 01:06:12,440
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court. He was serious about religion. He went

1207
01:06:12,480 --> 01:06:15,120
Speaker 1: to the gym frequently to work out. Peter was always

1208
01:06:15,160 --> 01:06:17,280
Speaker 1: what I would describe as thoughtful and civil in his

1209
01:06:17,360 --> 01:06:20,600
Speaker 1: dealings with people, which is unusual in my experience. He

1210
01:06:20,640 --> 01:06:23,320
Speaker 1: had a stubborn side and did not typically change his

1211
01:06:23,400 --> 01:06:27,240
Speaker 1: mind about things. And you know, maybe he was more

1212
01:06:27,240 --> 01:06:29,800
Speaker 1: friendly to this guy because this guy was more sympatico

1213
01:06:29,880 --> 01:06:31,680
Speaker 1: to his beliefs. But a lot of that seems like

1214
01:06:31,720 --> 01:06:35,640
Speaker 1: pretty consistent with other stories you get about Peter. Chris

1215
01:06:35,680 --> 01:06:38,880
Speaker 1: also recalled that Peter was very interested in another thinker,

1216
01:06:39,160 --> 01:06:42,600
Speaker 1: Leo Strauss. I recall the most interesting thing Peter said

1217
01:06:42,680 --> 01:06:45,240
Speaker 1: was derived from his understanding of Strauss, which was that

1218
01:06:45,280 --> 01:06:50,720
Speaker 1: there are not really any facts, just values. Another classmate,

1219
01:06:50,880 --> 01:06:55,160
Speaker 1: Lance Lance Ishimoto, recalls Peter as an outspoken conservative who

1220
01:06:55,200 --> 01:06:57,640
Speaker 1: was a part of the Federalist Society and hung out

1221
01:06:57,640 --> 01:07:01,560
Speaker 1: with Greg Kennedy Justice Kennedy. He went on to note

1222
01:07:01,720 --> 01:07:04,360
Speaker 1: his entrepreneurial nature was also apparent from the way he

1223
01:07:04,400 --> 01:07:06,560
Speaker 1: and a friend decided to make their own version of

1224
01:07:06,600 --> 01:07:09,760
Speaker 1: Stanford Laws sweatshirts and sell them at a price forty

1225
01:07:09,800 --> 01:07:11,920
Speaker 1: dollars that was cheaper than the official ones at the

1226
01:07:11,920 --> 01:07:16,360
Speaker 1: bookstore seventy five dollars. Yeah, so there you go. Peter

1227
01:07:16,520 --> 01:07:19,120
Speaker 1: got his BA in nineteen eighty nine and then got

1228
01:07:19,120 --> 01:07:21,760
Speaker 1: his law degree from Stanford Law. Now that's quite a

1229
01:07:21,760 --> 01:07:23,800
Speaker 1: lot of schooling for a guy that, as an adult

1230
01:07:23,840 --> 01:07:27,240
Speaker 1: would declare his own personal war on the higher education system.

1231
01:07:27,600 --> 01:07:30,200
Speaker 1: From Chaefkin and others. It certainly sounds as if some

1232
01:07:30,280 --> 01:07:33,560
Speaker 1: of this was related to his annoyance with liberal classmates,

1233
01:07:34,120 --> 01:07:36,880
Speaker 1: but I wonder if a larger reason wasn't the disillusionment

1234
01:07:36,960 --> 01:07:39,480
Speaker 1: he felt later because of his law career, which is

1235
01:07:39,520 --> 01:07:43,040
Speaker 1: a spoiler, doesn't work out the way he'd hoped. As

1236
01:07:43,120 --> 01:07:46,360
Speaker 1: Chris recalled, Peter was obsessed in this period as he's

1237
01:07:46,400 --> 01:07:48,720
Speaker 1: getting out of college, as he's finishing his law degree.

1238
01:07:49,080 --> 01:07:51,000
Speaker 1: The thing that he wants for his life is not

1239
01:07:51,040 --> 01:07:53,800
Speaker 1: to be an entrepreneur or a founder. It is to

1240
01:07:54,000 --> 01:07:56,800
Speaker 1: clerk for the Supreme Court. And one kind of assumes

1241
01:07:56,800 --> 01:07:59,720
Speaker 1: he's maybe hoping to eventually get on the Supreme Court.

1242
01:08:00,160 --> 01:08:03,440
Speaker 1: George Packer, writing for The New Yorkers states quote, after

1243
01:08:03,520 --> 01:08:06,680
Speaker 1: graduating from law school and clerking for a federal judge,

1244
01:08:06,760 --> 01:08:09,720
Speaker 1: he was turned down for a Supreme Court clerkship by

1245
01:08:09,880 --> 01:08:15,440
Speaker 1: Justices Antonin Scalia and Anthony Kennedy. And if we're looking

1246
01:08:15,440 --> 01:08:19,320
Speaker 1: for like the inciting institute incident, of like Peter's turn

1247
01:08:19,479 --> 01:08:23,160
Speaker 1: towards evil, for like his desire to destroy higher education,

1248
01:08:23,640 --> 01:08:26,080
Speaker 1: what makes him choose the path of becoming like a

1249
01:08:26,120 --> 01:08:30,240
Speaker 1: corporate founder a venture capitalist? This is why, right his

1250
01:08:30,400 --> 01:08:33,920
Speaker 1: first choice is he wants to be in working in

1251
01:08:34,040 --> 01:08:37,120
Speaker 1: and around and with the Supreme Court, and he gets

1252
01:08:37,120 --> 01:08:40,439
Speaker 1: shot down. He's not this guy who has always been

1253
01:08:40,439 --> 01:08:44,320
Speaker 1: the best at everything, isn't good enough for Scalia or Kennedy, right,

1254
01:08:44,720 --> 01:08:47,240
Speaker 1: and that that's kind of what sets him on the

1255
01:08:47,280 --> 01:08:49,559
Speaker 1: path that he's going to go down later, at least

1256
01:08:49,560 --> 01:08:51,800
Speaker 1: according to a lot of people who knew him at

1257
01:08:51,800 --> 01:08:52,519
Speaker 1: this point in time.

1258
01:08:54,120 --> 01:09:01,360
Speaker 2: Wow, like the font of Skalia of so much not good,

1259
01:09:02,280 --> 01:09:06,000
Speaker 2: does one good thing and it backfires utterly and completely

1260
01:09:06,320 --> 01:09:07,280
Speaker 2: and fucks us all.

1261
01:09:08,120 --> 01:09:10,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I wonder if it's just that they can

1262
01:09:10,120 --> 01:09:13,080
Speaker 1: see the because like, even if you're Scalia, right, you

1263
01:09:13,120 --> 01:09:16,800
Speaker 1: don't really want to work every day with a reflexive

1264
01:09:16,880 --> 01:09:20,679
Speaker 1: contrarian right, Like they're not. That's not a guy who's

1265
01:09:20,720 --> 01:09:22,920
Speaker 1: always whose whole thing is always I have to be

1266
01:09:22,960 --> 01:09:25,160
Speaker 1: doing a different thing than everyone else, Like I have

1267
01:09:25,280 --> 01:09:28,479
Speaker 1: to be smarter than everyone else, everyone else who has

1268
01:09:28,520 --> 01:09:30,120
Speaker 1: to be wrong and I have to be right. You

1269
01:09:30,120 --> 01:09:33,840
Speaker 1: don't want to work with that guy, like that guy sucks.

1270
01:09:33,920 --> 01:09:36,120
Speaker 2: Or maybe because his work wasn't good enough, yeah, or.

1271
01:09:36,120 --> 01:09:38,479
Speaker 1: Maybe maybe maybe his lost shit wasn't good enough, right,

1272
01:09:38,520 --> 01:09:40,920
Speaker 1: Like I don't know. I'm not a lawyer. I don't

1273
01:09:40,920 --> 01:09:44,040
Speaker 1: have the ability to judge Peter Thiel's like writing on law.

1274
01:09:45,360 --> 01:09:49,519
Speaker 1: But whatever the case, he because he's the valictorian of

1275
01:09:49,560 --> 01:09:52,040
Speaker 1: his high school, he does very well at Stanford, He's

1276
01:09:52,080 --> 01:09:56,360
Speaker 1: friends with Kennedy's kid, he's he's he's doing everything he

1277
01:09:56,520 --> 01:10:01,200
Speaker 1: should be doing to make this work. Just doesn't work

1278
01:10:01,240 --> 01:10:03,400
Speaker 1: for him, right, and that does seem to be like

1279
01:10:04,120 --> 01:10:06,840
Speaker 1: the thing that fucks him up anyway, Noah, how are

1280
01:10:06,840 --> 01:10:08,080
Speaker 1: you feeling about Peter so far?

1281
01:10:08,680 --> 01:10:11,479
Speaker 2: I feel like right now, were it kind of like

1282
01:10:13,760 --> 01:10:20,519
Speaker 2: only somewhat harmful toxic nerd stage, and if the story

1283
01:10:20,600 --> 01:10:24,639
Speaker 2: ended there would be like, Okay, fine, you know, go ahead, buddy,

1284
01:10:24,680 --> 01:10:27,080
Speaker 2: Now you get to grow up and live life.

1285
01:10:27,200 --> 01:10:28,719
Speaker 1: I feel like you'd be a person. Yeah.

1286
01:10:28,800 --> 01:10:32,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like I feel like there's still like, you know,

1287
01:10:32,479 --> 01:10:35,519
Speaker 2: the fate is not set at this point.

1288
01:10:35,120 --> 01:10:38,280
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, I would say the fate is not set.

1289
01:10:38,280 --> 01:10:40,719
Speaker 1: There's there's a lot of ways that this guy could

1290
01:10:40,760 --> 01:10:45,240
Speaker 1: go after this. But I also feel like you can

1291
01:10:45,280 --> 01:10:48,200
Speaker 1: tell that a guy who runs that kind of newspaper

1292
01:10:48,240 --> 01:10:50,639
Speaker 1: and whose goal is to work for Scalia or Kennedy

1293
01:10:51,040 --> 01:10:53,840
Speaker 1: probably isn't gonna wind up being like a guy you'd

1294
01:10:53,840 --> 01:10:58,639
Speaker 1: want to have dinner with, you know, Like, no, this.

1295
01:10:58,720 --> 01:11:02,320
Speaker 2: Isn't behind the Yeah, guys, you don't want to have

1296
01:11:02,400 --> 01:11:03,080
Speaker 2: dinner with.

1297
01:11:03,200 --> 01:11:05,960
Speaker 1: No, no, no, we're not guaranteed he's going to become

1298
01:11:06,000 --> 01:11:09,519
Speaker 1: a bastard yet, So we'll be hitting that increasingly by

1299
01:11:09,600 --> 01:11:12,360
Speaker 1: part two. And I'm excited for you to see where

1300
01:11:12,400 --> 01:11:16,160
Speaker 1: Peter goes after this. Noah, where are you going to

1301
01:11:16,200 --> 01:11:16,800
Speaker 1: go after this?

1302
01:11:18,240 --> 01:11:18,960
Speaker 4: Uh?

1303
01:11:19,120 --> 01:11:22,920
Speaker 2: I feel like I'm going to have like several shots

1304
01:11:22,920 --> 01:11:26,160
Speaker 2: of whiskey. Yeah, after this, I feel like I need it.

1305
01:11:26,320 --> 01:11:29,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's one pm, so that's the right time. Or

1306
01:11:29,600 --> 01:11:31,479
Speaker 1: a nice, nice stiff drink.

1307
01:11:32,640 --> 01:11:35,719
Speaker 2: Four o'clock over here, man, Yeah.

1308
01:11:35,560 --> 01:11:37,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's four o'clock somewhere. That's why I can

1309
01:11:38,000 --> 01:11:41,320
Speaker 1: start drinking. All right, Well, I'm going to go listen

1310
01:11:41,360 --> 01:11:43,880
Speaker 1: to some Jimmy Buffett. You call also go listen to

1311
01:11:43,920 --> 01:11:46,080
Speaker 1: some Jimmy Buffett and then come back on Thursday.

1312
01:11:46,640 --> 01:11:49,120
Speaker 2: We need six drinks Jimmy Buffett.

1313
01:11:53,680 --> 01:11:56,600
Speaker 4: Behind the Bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media.

1314
01:11:56,720 --> 01:11:59,320
Speaker 4: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool

1315
01:11:59,400 --> 01:12:03,360
Speaker 4: Zone Media, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1316
01:12:03,439 --> 01:12:05,920
Speaker 4: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

1317
01:12:06,200 --> 01:12:09,600
Speaker 3: Behind the Bastards is now available on YouTube, new episodes

1318
01:12:09,880 --> 01:12:13,519
Speaker 3: every Wednesday and Friday. Subscribe to our channel YouTube dot

1319
01:12:13,560 --> 01:12:16,160
Speaker 3: com slash at Behind the Bastards