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Speaker 1: Well, crede trillions. I'm Joel Webber and I'm americall tunas Eric.

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Speaker 1: We were actually kind of stumped on what we're gonna

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Speaker 1: do on this episode, and then you pulled a proverbial

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Speaker 1: rabbit out of the hat, and I think it's a

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Speaker 1: great one. You want to tell us about your idea? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So the idea was something that I've been tweeting. I

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Speaker 1: have certain recurring tweets, and one of the ones that

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Speaker 1: I've been doing a lot lately is this tweet where

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Speaker 1: I say, on today's edition of I can't believe how

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Speaker 1: much an assets that E t F has now blah

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Speaker 1: blah blah blah this heat, you know. And because what

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Speaker 1: happens is in our team, we'll just drop tickers in

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Speaker 1: and we'll look them up, and we'll be researching things

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Speaker 1: and over and over and over. I'm like, that thing

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Speaker 1: has two billion, that thing has four billion, that thing

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Speaker 1: has five undred million. I just when I last time

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Speaker 1: I checked on it, I was like, will probably just

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Speaker 1: sort of live in this little corner here, you know,

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Speaker 1: maybe it'll get like ten million a year. I just

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Speaker 1: am surprised at how big some of these non vanguardian

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Speaker 1: E t F s are getting ones that you just

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Speaker 1: rode off a little bit and you're like, what's going

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Speaker 1: on here? And then you're like, well, E t F

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Speaker 1: are taking in so much cash. I mean, I guess

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Speaker 1: it has to go somewhere. It's not all going to Vanguard.

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Speaker 1: So I thought we would just look at some e

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Speaker 1: t F that we were you know, we looked at one,

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Speaker 1: you know, one day, and we're just blown away about

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Speaker 1: how big they got and maybe we can talk about why.

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Speaker 1: And I thought the significance of this also was like,

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Speaker 1: here we are a year after really the pandemic started

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Speaker 1: to take hold and markets bottomed out, and now a

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Speaker 1: year later, we're, you know, back in the ball market.

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Speaker 1: Everything's up, and it it bears uh exploration of a

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Speaker 1: few things that might have some underbellies. So joining us

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Speaker 1: on this episode not just Eric and Mean, we have

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Speaker 1: Todd rosen Bluth, the head of E t F and

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Speaker 1: mutual fund research at cf are, A Athanasios, Sara Fhagus

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Speaker 1: who's an E t F analyst with Bloomberg Intelligence, and

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Speaker 1: Clear Balantine who's an E t F reporter with Bloomberg News.

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Speaker 1: They've all been regulars on the show before this time.

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Speaker 1: On Trilliance. Dude, I can't believe how big this et

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Speaker 1: F got. Todd, Claire Athanasios, welcome back to Trillions. Great

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Speaker 1: to be with you. I had to be here. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: thanks for having us. Hey, by the way, Joel, Yeah, Um,

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Speaker 1: do you know what today is? It's funny we have

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Speaker 1: Todd on the show. It's timely. I would say, you know,

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Speaker 1: late March, what what's what's going on? This is this

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Speaker 1: is the end of super Bet two. Okay, so this

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Speaker 1: is the due date? So okay. A year ago when

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Speaker 1: the Active non Transparent et F started to launch and

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Speaker 1: there was all that hype building up, It's like, oh,

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Speaker 1: here come these big fish to you, real price American

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Speaker 1: Century Fidelity. Um. Todd and I started to have spats

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Speaker 1: both on panels and on Twitter about how big they

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Speaker 1: would get. So I said it over under at ten

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Speaker 1: billion dollars in the first year for what we call

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Speaker 1: answer active non transparents. He took the over so as

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Speaker 1: the year went on it looks it looked pretty bad

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Speaker 1: early and it stayed bad. They have about a billion

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Speaker 1: so I had nine billion dollars to spare. The bet

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Speaker 1: was due April one, and he owes me a steak dinner. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: we would normally be physically there and we'd be going

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Speaker 1: out to dinner that night, and then I would tweet

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Speaker 1: pictures of the steak and him signing the bill and

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Speaker 1: all that. It would be. We have to postpone that though,

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Speaker 1: But at least you could do it. You could do

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Speaker 1: it on Zoom m I like Todd, I want to

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Speaker 1: hang out with them so we have a good time together.

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Speaker 1: You could hang out. It could be a Zoom steak dinner.

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Speaker 1: Now that's the pressing. Yeah, that's weird pressing. We've got

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Speaker 1: to do this in person. So, yes, I lost the bet.

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Speaker 1: Let's put the numbers right. It's about one point five

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Speaker 1: billion dollars in total for these e t f s. Again,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't matter, it's much less than ten billion dollars.

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Speaker 1: But I lost this bet. Active non transparent ets have

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Speaker 1: not delivered the assets we expected. They've been under the radar,

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Speaker 1: and that's of course a good segment for this show

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Speaker 1: because there's things that are under the radar that are

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Speaker 1: actually gathering assets instead of these products. Okay, so Todd,

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Speaker 1: let's start with you. What what What's one that's jumped

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Speaker 1: out at you? So my pick on this and is

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Speaker 1: a wisdom Tree product. It's Wisdom Trees Emerging Market X

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Speaker 1: State Owned Enterprises et F. The ticker is x s

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Speaker 1: o E. It's got four point seven billion dollars in assets,

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Speaker 1: over three billion dollars of inflows in just the past year.

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Speaker 1: It's actually the second largest of Wisdom Trees ETF. You

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Speaker 1: know people probably in fact, I was on this show

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Speaker 1: talking about currency head GTS, which is what wisdom Tree

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Speaker 1: has been synonymous for for over a decade. It's now

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Speaker 1: the second largest, this XO s o E product. And

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Speaker 1: why because it's outperforming by having a governance slant on

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Speaker 1: emerging markets. It's outperforming I E m G, the Eye

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Speaker 1: shares cheap emerging market product, Vanguard's Emerging market product vw

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Speaker 1: O by over three hundred basis points in the last

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Speaker 1: three years. And performance works. You know, the investors are

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Speaker 1: getting uh, a E s G oriented emerging market product

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Speaker 1: from wisdom Tree uh And and it's working out. But

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Speaker 1: I didn't realize how big it was. Four point seven

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Speaker 1: billion dollars is much larger than I would have thought.

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Speaker 1: Does that worry you No, I think it's a great sign.

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Speaker 1: I think we we you know, we're seeing we can

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Speaker 1: have a different debate about E S G and the

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Speaker 1: viability of those products. But I think it's great that

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Speaker 1: it's moved to emerging markets and with a single pillar

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Speaker 1: the G in governance as opposed to something that's focused

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Speaker 1: on environmental which has certainly got more of the attention

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Speaker 1: as of late. You know what, I almost picked that

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Speaker 1: one at once have been on my radar. I looked

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Speaker 1: at a couple of months ago. I didn't realize it

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Speaker 1: got so big because I think it's right behind de Grow, right,

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Speaker 1: I think it was always liked grow and that one

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Speaker 1: was the largest products. But it's funny we were thinking

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Speaker 1: the same I looked at it. I didn't end up

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Speaker 1: choosing that one, but it definitely caught my eye. That

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Speaker 1: to me is a perfect example time that might be

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Speaker 1: better than both of mine. That is a lot of money.

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Speaker 1: And also it's interesting two things on that one. Um

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Speaker 1: Wisdom Tree has done. I thought a good job of

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Speaker 1: diversifying themselves out of that currency hedged craze that has

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Speaker 1: come and gone, and this is a great product and

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Speaker 1: it also fits with their idea of like hey, I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna give you this thing. I'm gonna take this thing out,

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Speaker 1: you know, like take the yen out of Japan for

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Speaker 1: d x J. This is like taking the socialism out

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Speaker 1: of the the emerging markets. And at the rap On

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Speaker 1: e M has always been well, a lot of these

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Speaker 1: h companies are stayed owned. They don't move that much.

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Speaker 1: Um blah blah blah. We want more capitalism in there,

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Speaker 1: and the E t F really I think does that well.

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Speaker 1: So it's a not just performance, but the the the

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Speaker 1: narrative and the solution it's providing is pretty solid too.

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Speaker 1: So Joe, I need an independent ruling on this. It

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Speaker 1: sounded like Eric says my pick is better than his picks,

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Speaker 1: and so the bet evens out. We just are going

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Speaker 1: to split the check when we have a steak. Is

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Speaker 1: that right? Is that how you heard? I did not?

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Speaker 1: I heard a fraction of that. Um. The other part

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Speaker 1: I think was a little uh. It took a little

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Speaker 1: liberty with your listening skills there. But good pick. Nice try, Claire.

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Speaker 1: I want to bring you in what what's your first pick?

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Speaker 1: So mine aren't in the billions like Todd's, but the

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Speaker 1: one that caught my eye most recently, um is Buzz,

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Speaker 1: which is the Van Neck vectors Social Sentiment ETF, and

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Speaker 1: that's the one that made a lot of UM buzz

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Speaker 1: earlier this month when Dave Portnoy backed it UM. Looking

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Speaker 1: at our data, let me pull it up. They got

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Speaker 1: two d and eighty million dollars on its first day UM,

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Speaker 1: which is just pretty incredible UM for a day launched.

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Speaker 1: Everything that I've been doing recently is comparing back to

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Speaker 1: those UM non transparent funds, because it's been a you know,

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Speaker 1: about one year since those launched UM. And I checked

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Speaker 1: this morning and the largest one of those act of

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Speaker 1: non transparent funds has two one million. That's the Fidelity

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Speaker 1: blue Chip Growth e t F. And and these are

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Speaker 1: huge names that you know, launched these strategies that we're

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Speaker 1: supposed to be some of the biggest products this year,

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Speaker 1: and yet you see this e t F backed by

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Speaker 1: Dave Portnoy that gets more than than the best AUNT

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Speaker 1: did in a whole year, or about as well UM

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Speaker 1: in just a single day. Yeah, I'll jump in here

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Speaker 1: on that. You're right. I said this would probably get

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Speaker 1: three million from the Portnoy effect. It completely past that.

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Speaker 1: And it's interesting. Buzz launched four or five years ago

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Speaker 1: and it got no interest. So somebody asked me the day, well,

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Speaker 1: what percentage of the assets do you think is because

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Speaker 1: of port And I'm like, because we saw this before.

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Speaker 1: The buzz on its own was only able to get

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Speaker 1: a tiny fraction of that volume and assets literally like

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Speaker 1: one percent of it, to be honest, um, And so

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Speaker 1: it really I mean also having the fact that Portnoy

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Speaker 1: is a day trader himself and on Twitter, it's so

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Speaker 1: in line with his very being, and I think this

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Speaker 1: is actually a a smart marketing move as opposed to

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Speaker 1: hiring say some celebrity who doesn't have anything to do

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Speaker 1: with investing. I think we'll see more of this, And

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Speaker 1: what fascinates me is the fact that you know, if

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Speaker 1: you look under the hood of this E t F,

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Speaker 1: it's not like you know, game stop in a MC

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Speaker 1: some of these like day Trader Darlin's um the top

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Speaker 1: holding is Apple and then Boeing. I mean, it's it's

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Speaker 1: you know, you wonder how much of this is people

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Speaker 1: looking at what's in the E t F versus just

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Speaker 1: seeing Portnoy in jumping in. Yeah, this has nothing to

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Speaker 1: do with people looking at what's inside the t which

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Speaker 1: which gives me as much frustration as the fact that

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Speaker 1: you said, this has more money than the largest of

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Speaker 1: these semi transparent ets. People are not looking inside it.

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Speaker 1: But the good thing is they're owning higher quality blueshift

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Speaker 1: companies that will survive as opposed to riding the wave

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Speaker 1: of the latest meme praise, which I think is the

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Speaker 1: concern in general and in an interesting aspect of I

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Speaker 1: think this episode is like, how much of this is

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Speaker 1: just this raw enthusiasm? Um we have new phenomenons of

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Speaker 1: the port Noise and the Cathy Woods of the world

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Speaker 1: who can really um personalize things, and and people are

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Speaker 1: investing in blind faith without actually recognizing what's inside the

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Speaker 1: the e t f um Athanasios. Can we get your

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Speaker 1: first pick? Yeah, this one's going away from like p billennials.

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Speaker 1: I feel like this is a boomer pick. But all right,

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Speaker 1: so the ticker is t MFC. All right, Motley Full

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Speaker 1: one dread et F. Do you remember that newsletter Motley Full.

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Speaker 1: I feel like there's something like my parents would read,

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Speaker 1: Like they get like a in the mail, like a

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Speaker 1: newsletter with like pictures and colors on it. All right,

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Speaker 1: so they want they have this really strong following, like

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Speaker 1: a million followers that read this newsletter. And they picked

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Speaker 1: stocks and they say like, yeah, did it in investing

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Speaker 1: or income investing or whatnot. So they launched this et

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Speaker 1: F two years ago. I mean, it's not in the billions,

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Speaker 1: but it's got four hundred million, which I think is

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Speaker 1: really impressive, um, because it just I don't know. I I

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Speaker 1: just think there's a stigma that like Motley Fools, a

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Speaker 1: little bit more old school, and you look at it

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Speaker 1: right and at the surface, it's just like Apple Microsoft,

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Speaker 1: You're like, I'm paying fifty basis points for this, but

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Speaker 1: it actually has been crushing the SMP five hundred since

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Speaker 1: it launched by like and then I thought, maybe, well

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Speaker 1: it's just house money. They maybe they put their own

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Speaker 1: money into it. But it's pretty steady flows coming in consistently. Um.

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Speaker 1: I feel like this is a pretty solid This is

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Speaker 1: a good boomer pick because I don't think anyone would

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Speaker 1: have expected this product to be If I mentioned this ticker,

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Speaker 1: you would have said fifty million tops just still probably

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Speaker 1: an initial steed. I think four million is pretty impressive

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Speaker 1: for this product. And where the flow is coming from.

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Speaker 1: I think it has to be newsletter followers. People that

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Speaker 1: are following this newsletter, they probably are still subscribed to

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Speaker 1: it and like either have an unsubscribed and they're still

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Speaker 1: getting it like that email. Um, but it's it's I

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Speaker 1: feel like this would be like an I just picture

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Speaker 1: like an older investor who still gets their newsletter like

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Speaker 1: their dividend picks, and he said, yeah, I'll buy I'll

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Speaker 1: buy the Motley full et F. Why not you have

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Speaker 1: a newsletter that could be his new strategy to to

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Speaker 1: to track the boomers. Yeah, Like, I don't even think

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Speaker 1: these news I need to be honest, I don't even

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Speaker 1: think these guys were still publishing. To be honest, I

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Speaker 1: had to go digging really deep into the abyss to

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Speaker 1: find this one. Actually was you were going through the tickers.

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Speaker 1: I was going through my brain of going, I don't

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Speaker 1: know what that one is, um, And then I think

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Speaker 1: this baron is there's need t F. That's Tide two

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Speaker 1: barons also like the barons before. Hold on, let me

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Speaker 1: look it up. Let's see. Okay, what do you think

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Speaker 1: that has Todd? Don't look. I can't because I'm on

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Speaker 1: recording this with you, but I think it's it's certainly less.

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Speaker 1: I would guess it has a hundred and fifty million.

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Speaker 1: Look at you, man, hundred and thirty five million. Your

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Speaker 1: your e t F Jedi forces are are working well, alright, Eric,

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Speaker 1: round out our first round. What's your first pick? My

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Speaker 1: first pick is i'veall, which is one of the ones

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Speaker 1: I tweeted out. This is uh the IVALL quadratic interest

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Speaker 1: rate Volatility and Inflation Hedge ETF. So let me read

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Speaker 1: to you. This is the e t F dot com,

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Speaker 1: which has these nice little zagats descriptions of e t s.

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Speaker 1: Here's what it says. It attempts to protect against inflation

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Speaker 1: into hedge yield curve shifts and interest rate volatility using

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Speaker 1: tips and long options evalls. Over the counter options on

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Speaker 1: the US interest rate swap curve are described dada dada.

261
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Speaker 1: So I know from experience that complexity doesn't really sell

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Speaker 1: an ETFs and so and I met Nancy Davis a

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Speaker 1: couple of times, heard her pitch it. She's very smart,

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Speaker 1: and I just thought, okay, this might appeal to a

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Speaker 1: certain kind of maybe really high end advisor or institutions.

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Speaker 1: And it's got two point five billion and it's only

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Speaker 1: launched in May, is two years old. That is amazing

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Speaker 1: to me. And it charges basis points that is really

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Speaker 1: on the high set. That's probably top five most expensive

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Speaker 1: for E t F s. So it's complex, expensive and indie.

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Speaker 1: In a way, it reminds me of ARC, where I

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Speaker 1: was like, there's just so much going against this, and

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Speaker 1: so to have two point five billion, I would have

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Speaker 1: estimated million would be a success for this in two years.

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Speaker 1: So it blew it away. And big reason it blew

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Speaker 1: it away is that if you look at the performance,

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Speaker 1: it's really good. It's got a nice steady rise. And

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Speaker 1: so over the past two years since it came out,

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Speaker 1: I'll give you the performance, So it is up since

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Speaker 1: it came out. Now you'd be like, well, that's not

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Speaker 1: that much, right, you know, the SMPS up more. True,

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Speaker 1: but this isn't really competing against the SMP. If you

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Speaker 1: look at the aggregate bond E t F it's up nine.

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Speaker 1: And here's what's amazing, i'vall if you want to talk

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Speaker 1: about the SMP, is about a sixth of the volatility.

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Speaker 1: In other words, that is a very low, low, low vault,

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Speaker 1: and that is hot and that's I think why it's

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Speaker 1: selling so well. Yeah, and I just to add to it,

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Speaker 1: what it's doing is it's owning Schwab tips E t

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Speaker 1: F as its beta and then adding on using options

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Speaker 1: to be able to get extra income and be able

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Speaker 1: to reduce the downside to it. So this is true

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Speaker 1: active management in the e t F rapper by using

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Speaker 1: a core product and then amplifying on top of it,

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Speaker 1: as opposed to you know these content. Nothing wrong with

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Speaker 1: ARC and the concentrated picks, but it's nothing like the

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Speaker 1: SMP five fundred. It's not starting with the SMP five

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Speaker 1: and then pulling things out or adding to it. This

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00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:07,320
Speaker 1: is actually you know doing that. And to credit of

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Speaker 1: Nancy because she's not doesn't have a team of wholesalers

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Speaker 1: that's doing this. This is a true independent provider. Well,

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00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:17,520
Speaker 1: it's interesting because she pivoted from her hedge fund to

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Speaker 1: launch this, and we we also saw the first hedge

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Speaker 1: fund to convert itself into an um an e t F.

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Speaker 1: So it's interesting to sort of think about how that

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Speaker 1: might impact things going forward. If more managers do this

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Speaker 1: kind of thing, I will say, the idea of a

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Speaker 1: fund that helps with inflation, I think we're going to

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Speaker 1: see more of those, I think with the success of this,

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Speaker 1: and also that inflation is the new like scary word

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Speaker 1: out there, and so I think that's this is gonna

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Speaker 1: spark some not not copycats on this strategy exactly, but

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Speaker 1: e t s that are geared towards the inflation situation. Okay,

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Speaker 1: let's dude round to Todd. I'm gonna start with you again.

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Speaker 1: What's your second pick? Yeah, So I hesitate to offer

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Speaker 1: an I shares product because I shares an under the

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00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:08,480
Speaker 1: radar probably doesn't seem like it makes sense. But i

318
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Speaker 1: q l T, which is the I Shares edge ms

319
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Speaker 1: c I International Quality Factor e t F has three

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Speaker 1: billion dollars in it um. That's nowhere near as big

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Speaker 1: as it is for the US version of of the factors.

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Speaker 1: But I've always thought of international investing being primarily done

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Speaker 1: with a blunt instrument of ms c I EFA or

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Speaker 1: m s c I emerging market based products at A

325
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Speaker 1: shares and Vanguard has and I didn't think anybody was

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00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:40,199
Speaker 1: really doing factor rotation or factor exposure, especially something that

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Speaker 1: Eric I'm sure is going to make fun of me

328
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Speaker 1: for picking another boring blue chip high quality e t

329
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Speaker 1: F that's out there because it owns it owns Roshan

330
00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:51,159
Speaker 1: nest Ley in totality an s A P. But you

331
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Speaker 1: know what it's beating i EFA and v e A

332
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Speaker 1: by more than three hundred basis points. So the quality

333
00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:01,960
Speaker 1: tilt is actually adding value pun unintended for what it is.

334
00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:03,840
Speaker 1: I just didn't realize anybody was doing this. This is

335
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Speaker 1: a three billion dollar et F I should has many

336
00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:09,560
Speaker 1: three billion dollar ets, but I didn't think international factor

337
00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:14,040
Speaker 1: would have been among them. Listen, quality, large caps, that's

338
00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:16,920
Speaker 1: it's on brand. I would expect nothing less. I'm happy

339
00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:19,880
Speaker 1: you brought that, and I'd be honest, I am shocked

340
00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:23,520
Speaker 1: it has that much. Usually anything international over the past

341
00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:26,560
Speaker 1: couple of years hasn't done well because it's lagged. So

342
00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:28,560
Speaker 1: the idea they can get that much into this is

343
00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:32,399
Speaker 1: is really amazing. I will say it's thirty basis points.

344
00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:36,399
Speaker 1: That's a nice advisory low fee for that strategy, and

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00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:42,560
Speaker 1: that has to help. I fell asleep halfway through that pick. No,

346
00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:46,040
Speaker 1: it's a it's a silod pick, uh. I think, you know,

347
00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:49,440
Speaker 1: because now there's a rotation more into international. I feel

348
00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:52,440
Speaker 1: like so instead of people maybe just going straight for IFA,

349
00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:55,600
Speaker 1: this is a solid pick, you know, and quality might

350
00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:57,359
Speaker 1: work a little bit better. I think on on an

351
00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:00,400
Speaker 1: international scale like that, pointing out performs has been good,

352
00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:05,400
Speaker 1: So this is actually a really it's a really good pick. Okay, clear,

353
00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:08,120
Speaker 1: let's give you the my quick what's what's your second pick?

354
00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:11,760
Speaker 1: So also a bit of an underdog compared to the

355
00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:13,920
Speaker 1: billions there, but I think this is one of the

356
00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:17,520
Speaker 1: least boring e t F s UM. I've been looking

357
00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:22,960
Speaker 1: at at UFO, which is the Procure Space et f UM,

358
00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:25,480
Speaker 1: and it's still pretty tiny. But I think what's really

359
00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:28,840
Speaker 1: notable about it is that since Cathy would announce that

360
00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:31,879
Speaker 1: she's going to be launching a space fund, she announced

361
00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:35,480
Speaker 1: that back in mid January UM, the fund could come

362
00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:40,400
Speaker 1: out any day. Now UFO has more than tripled in assets,

363
00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:44,320
Speaker 1: so it's still only at a hundred and thirty one million,

364
00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:49,919
Speaker 1: but you know, it's been trading since April UM and

365
00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:53,600
Speaker 1: then just in the past what two months, it's uh,

366
00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:58,080
Speaker 1: it's it's tripled. So I think it's a interesting sign

367
00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:00,439
Speaker 1: of what may be to come for this fund and

368
00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:05,119
Speaker 1: for any other space funds. So this is interesting UFO.

369
00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:09,040
Speaker 1: What a gift it got. And Andrew Chaining has been

370
00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:12,360
Speaker 1: through a nasty situation with one of his old issuers,

371
00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:14,680
Speaker 1: and it was I was happy for him to get

372
00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:18,280
Speaker 1: this gift. Because UFO hadn't was kind of kind of

373
00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:21,400
Speaker 1: hanging around in oblivion and then boom this filing from ARC,

374
00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:24,000
Speaker 1: which just shows you the power of Kathy. I mean,

375
00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:26,480
Speaker 1: she's almost like Buffett at this point where she buys

376
00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:29,359
Speaker 1: the stock or talks says the stocks in an interview

377
00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:32,280
Speaker 1: when it goes up, and it was just it's nice

378
00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:34,000
Speaker 1: for Andrew. I think some of that money will stick,

379
00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:37,280
Speaker 1: maybe a couple of leaves for hers, but she's actually

380
00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:40,560
Speaker 1: helping the whole category. I think we're going to actually

381
00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:44,880
Speaker 1: see this become a true investment category. I think spacets

382
00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:48,400
Speaker 1: there's a there's a little bit out there um from

383
00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:51,119
Speaker 1: an investment perspective, but I think people are going to

384
00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:54,120
Speaker 1: then look to see is there another option. Is there

385
00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:57,240
Speaker 1: a a slightly cheaper or a slightly more index based

386
00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:00,600
Speaker 1: approach to it, or differentiation? And I think this will

387
00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:03,960
Speaker 1: be a chance for UFO to have an opportunity to

388
00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:07,359
Speaker 1: highlight what makes it different than the active management approach,

389
00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:10,000
Speaker 1: whereas right now it's it's way under the radars. As

390
00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:22,280
Speaker 1: you mentioned, Claire hath nasias Um, what other ETF has

391
00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:25,760
Speaker 1: surprised I almost want to guess I'll tell you, Okay,

392
00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:31,520
Speaker 1: let's'm gonna I'm gonna let you guess. Uh. I feel

393
00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:34,160
Speaker 1: like it's I feel like it's a first trust product.

394
00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:38,119
Speaker 1: Am I right? No? I mean you're good, you know,

395
00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:42,440
Speaker 1: but I went I went a different a different route.

396
00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:47,320
Speaker 1: Knew that you were going to guess, and it was like, Eric, okay, okay,

397
00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:53,320
Speaker 1: one more try is it one? Is it something that's China? No? Okay,

398
00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:56,280
Speaker 1: all right, thank you, go ahead over to Okay, pick

399
00:21:56,680 --> 00:22:01,960
Speaker 1: I pick Bug the Global x Diverse Security TF Soccer. Yeah,

400
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:03,480
Speaker 1: so let me tell you why. When you think about it,

401
00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:06,400
Speaker 1: you like, oh wow, Thematic pick yeah, like it's got

402
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,280
Speaker 1: eight hundred million. This is why I think it's actually

403
00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:12,480
Speaker 1: pretty impressive because you mentioned Andrew Chain and he had

404
00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:14,480
Speaker 1: hacked first, right, and I think like Hack is like

405
00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:18,480
Speaker 1: the first like quintessential Thematic ETF that came out, and

406
00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:21,320
Speaker 1: he had Cyber that came out. They together it was

407
00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:23,879
Speaker 1: those have got like over five billion. So it's almost

408
00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:26,480
Speaker 1: like now you can't get into the club. It's like

409
00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:29,720
Speaker 1: another cyber security ETF Like no, thanks, like it's fine,

410
00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:33,280
Speaker 1: but Bug is coming. It's it undercut both Hack and Cyber.

411
00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:36,680
Speaker 1: It's been performing better than Hack and Cyber. It's more

412
00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:39,480
Speaker 1: concentrated than Hack and cyber Um, and it's able to

413
00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:42,359
Speaker 1: raise I think eight hundred million and take away some

414
00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:45,680
Speaker 1: of the assets from from those guys. The reason where

415
00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:47,600
Speaker 1: it's grown a little bit is because of all the

416
00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:50,320
Speaker 1: legal issues around Hack, people were leaving that funds, they

417
00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:52,400
Speaker 1: were going to cyber and they were dumping into things

418
00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:55,359
Speaker 1: like Bug. But it only launched in late two thousand nineteen,

419
00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:58,560
Speaker 1: so it's still pretty new. So and also I like

420
00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:01,439
Speaker 1: Bug because I'm a big money black fan the movie

421
00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:04,800
Speaker 1: and like Bug was like the character, So that's also

422
00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:07,639
Speaker 1: probably have the reason why I picked that picker. This

423
00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:11,400
Speaker 1: ETF was on my list. This was my alternating case. Uh,

424
00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:14,639
Speaker 1: somebody else picked it because for everything that you said,

425
00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:17,439
Speaker 1: But it actually has gathered almost all of the assets

426
00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:21,960
Speaker 1: this year despite losing money this year. You don't usually

427
00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:24,560
Speaker 1: see that. Obviously, it did very well in in two

428
00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:28,840
Speaker 1: thousand and twenty, but third mover advantage doesn't usually work

429
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:31,760
Speaker 1: unless you know Global Acts is the is the leader

430
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:34,360
Speaker 1: in thematic ets for a reason. You know that they're

431
00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:37,920
Speaker 1: showing their their true colors here. I don't know anybody

432
00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:40,240
Speaker 1: who's ever feest up to saying that they're a big

433
00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:43,960
Speaker 1: fan of men in black. Um, So that's that's especially

434
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:47,320
Speaker 1: like certain characters like like normally men and black gets

435
00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:50,800
Speaker 1: reference with the memory thing um or when you see

436
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:52,840
Speaker 1: somebody who's in like an all black suit, but like

437
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:54,920
Speaker 1: you like went to a whole another place. I wish

438
00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:57,680
Speaker 1: Eric and I debate on movies all the time. I

439
00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:00,359
Speaker 1: liked the movie. I like the ray band, like the

440
00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:02,840
Speaker 1: whole thing back. I had the CD the soundtrack, so

441
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:04,920
Speaker 1: I was really into that movie when I was younger.

442
00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:07,360
Speaker 1: It's it's good. The first one is really I thought

443
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:12,160
Speaker 1: it was really good. I watched it with my Sunday. Yeah,

444
00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:15,199
Speaker 1: it's good. Alright. On that note, Eric, we're gonna give

445
00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:19,080
Speaker 1: you the final words. What's your second pick? So I'll

446
00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:21,800
Speaker 1: go with one that's again. I just tweeted about this,

447
00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:24,959
Speaker 1: which is soxel s o x L. This is the

448
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:28,399
Speaker 1: direction three times semiconductors. If you had asked me how

449
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:31,080
Speaker 1: much does this thing have, I'd say, well, okay, it's

450
00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:34,080
Speaker 1: a it's not a it's not a sector, it's an industry.

451
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:38,120
Speaker 1: Semis are pretty popular. I'd be like, probably it has

452
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:41,399
Speaker 1: four billion, and it just doesn't make any sense to me,

453
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:43,760
Speaker 1: especially because if you look at the flows this year.

454
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:47,120
Speaker 1: I mean, semiconductors are a fascinating space to me. They're

455
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:49,840
Speaker 1: almost like the oil of our tech world. I mean,

456
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:53,120
Speaker 1: you have to have semis right there. Just it's such

457
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:56,720
Speaker 1: an interesting space. But you get enough juice from the

458
00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:59,679
Speaker 1: regular one, so a do you really need leverage? But

459
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:01,760
Speaker 1: I'm like, Okay, maybe there's some people who need leverage.

460
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:04,439
Speaker 1: But this year this has taken in more money than

461
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:07,199
Speaker 1: any of the regular ones like SMH socks or XSD

462
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:11,840
Speaker 1: two billion dollars and flows. It charges basis points. And

463
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,080
Speaker 1: here's the thing. It's not like it's gone on a tear.

464
00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:16,919
Speaker 1: It's been somewhat of a volatile ride, which is actually

465
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:20,760
Speaker 1: bad for leverage. And I just wonder who these people are.

466
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:22,120
Speaker 1: And then if you look at the three X bear,

467
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:24,720
Speaker 1: it's got almost no assets. So I think a couple

468
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:27,600
Speaker 1: of things are going on here. I think generally traders

469
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:30,560
Speaker 1: are just really bullish on semis, and I think they

470
00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 1: use this as a proxy to play that kind of

471
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:37,280
Speaker 1: a balance. And I also think it's representative of the

472
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:40,200
Speaker 1: retail crowd because there's a bunch of leverage ETFs that

473
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:42,720
Speaker 1: are way bigger than I would ever imagine. T q

474
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:45,919
Speaker 1: q Q is another one, although it wasn't a surprise

475
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:47,920
Speaker 1: because I tracked this all the time, but that one

476
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:50,760
Speaker 1: now has ten point seven billion dollars. So I do

477
00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:53,600
Speaker 1: think that some of the leverage ETFs are appealing to

478
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,239
Speaker 1: the retail trading crowd who likes fast. They don't want

479
00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:58,760
Speaker 1: to wait around for SMH and a regular e t F.

480
00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 1: They want the return and three times faster. But anyway,

481
00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:05,160
Speaker 1: I'm shocked, And this is why the leverage GTF issuers

482
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:07,359
Speaker 1: are in a good business. For the amount of assets

483
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:08,600
Speaker 1: they have. They make a lot of money because they

484
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:10,520
Speaker 1: all charge then any five BIPs and they have a

485
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:14,840
Speaker 1: kind of interesting almost like hardcore local fan base that

486
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:18,400
Speaker 1: continues to lose their products, and they don't have fee pressures,

487
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,199
Speaker 1: so it's just an interesting world to me. And anyway,

488
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:23,360
Speaker 1: I was just blown away. I would have thought this

489
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:26,639
Speaker 1: was the value. The volume would have been high and

490
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:28,359
Speaker 1: would have been among the higher e t F s

491
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:31,719
Speaker 1: given the trading crowd. But people are clearly holding onto

492
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 1: this if it's got over four billion in assets, and

493
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:37,520
Speaker 1: and that both has high reward but also high risk.

494
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:40,000
Speaker 1: As you guys have talked about what these just power

495
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 1: tools in prior shows. Yeah, like I we would equate

496
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:46,480
Speaker 1: them to a chainsaw. You know, they can do wonders,

497
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 1: but you can also lose a hand if you don't

498
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:51,480
Speaker 1: know what you're doing. So I know, I don't. I

499
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 1: wonder if people you're right When I look at the

500
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,200
Speaker 1: leverage ETFs, I want to see like thirty turn over

501
00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:59,240
Speaker 1: a day, and this one's I don't know. Maybe, So

502
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 1: you're right, there's probably be a a little more buying and

503
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:03,040
Speaker 1: holding than there should be. These things should be traded,

504
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:06,280
Speaker 1: not held. Eric, Can I just say that I'm shocked

505
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:09,320
Speaker 1: that you didn't pick Jets. I was positive that was

506
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:12,520
Speaker 1: going to come. So it's a good question. The reason

507
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:14,399
Speaker 1: that has more assets than I would have thought two

508
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:16,960
Speaker 1: years ago. But I was on that e t F

509
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:20,520
Speaker 1: like White on Rice, I tweeted about every day that

510
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:23,080
Speaker 1: these are ones where I just forget about them for

511
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:26,359
Speaker 1: a while and they come up for some reason and

512
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:28,760
Speaker 1: I'm like wow. It's almost like ever go to a

513
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:30,560
Speaker 1: friend's house and they have a kid or a dog

514
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:33,160
Speaker 1: and you're like, I cannot believe how big your kid

515
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 1: is getting or your dog. It's like that, but Jets,

516
00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 1: I live with Jets. Jets is like in my household,

517
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:40,920
Speaker 1: so I don't notice how big it's getting. You see,

518
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:44,080
Speaker 1: know what I'm saying? Like Arc two, same deal, I

519
00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:46,400
Speaker 1: live with it. I live I live with a kid

520
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 1: and a dog that both do that, and I'm just like,

521
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:52,280
Speaker 1: oh my god, how much bigger to get? All right?

522
00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 1: On that note, Todd Claire at the Nasios, thanks so

523
00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:58,080
Speaker 1: much for joining us on Trailings again. Thanks for having us, Yes,

524
00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:05,960
Speaker 1: thanks for having us. Thanks for listening to Trillions until

525
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 1: next time. You can find us on the Bloomberg Terminal,

526
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:11,800
Speaker 1: Bloomberg dot com, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever else you

527
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 1: like to listen. We'd love to hear from you. We're

528
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:17,400
Speaker 1: on Twitter, I'm at Joel Webber Show, He's at Eric

529
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:21,680
Speaker 1: fall Tunas. You can find Claire at CFB Underscore eighteen,

530
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:28,400
Speaker 1: Todd at Todd c f r A, and Athanacios at

531
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,879
Speaker 1: t Sarah Vegas. As always, good luck spelling that this

532
00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 1: episode of Trillions was produced by Magnus and Drison. Francesca

533
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:36,840
Speaker 1: Levy is the head of Bloomberg Podcast