1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:02,600 Speaker 1: Like, Wow, they're kind of trying to expose this. They're 2 00:00:02,640 --> 00:00:06,760 Speaker 1: also trying to create a narrative, like they understand that 3 00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:14,840 Speaker 1: they're in an information more There Are No Girls on 4 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:16,919 Speaker 1: the Internet as a production of I Heart Radio and 5 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 1: Unboss Creative. I'm bridget Toad and this is There Are 6 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 1: No Girls on the Internet. Last month, former royals Megan 7 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:33,480 Speaker 1: Markel and Prince Harry released a Netflix documentary all about 8 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:35,920 Speaker 1: their decision to step back from the duties involved in 9 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:38,680 Speaker 1: being a member of the royal family, and this week 10 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:43,440 Speaker 1: Harry's new memoir called Spare that chronicled his experiences in 11 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:46,960 Speaker 1: the Royal Family debuts as well. We've talked before about 12 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 1: the wave of racist, sexist, conspiracy theories and disinformation campaigns 13 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:55,120 Speaker 1: that target Megan Markle, and in a piece called What 14 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 1: Harry and Megan Can teach Us About Information Warfare, former 15 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:03,120 Speaker 1: FBI count to intelligence agent Asha Vengata says that Harry 16 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:06,480 Speaker 1: and Megan's recent media can actually provide a good blueprint 17 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 1: for how to combat a disinformation campaign in when an 18 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 1: Information war So, let's talk about the piece. It is fascinating. 19 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:16,120 Speaker 1: The pieces called What Harry and Megan Can teach Us 20 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:19,360 Speaker 1: About Information warfare. Um, I know that you're a big 21 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 1: fan of the Royals. What drove you to write this 22 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 1: piece kind of breaking down Megan and Harry and how 23 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:30,119 Speaker 1: what we can take away about propaganda and information. Yeah. 24 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 1: So I sat down to watch their Netflix docuseries thinking 25 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:37,200 Speaker 1: this was just gonna be some mind candy for me. 26 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 1: I'm gonna take a little break, you know, and escape 27 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:44,639 Speaker 1: at all. But I thought it was actually a great 28 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:48,040 Speaker 1: window into some of the stuff that I teach about, 29 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 1: and in particular they describe because what they're doing in 30 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 1: the course of this documentary is really describing the propaganda 31 00:01:55,320 --> 00:02:00,320 Speaker 1: machine that is the British tabloid you know, ecosystem, and 32 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 1: how it relates to the royal family. Um. While they 33 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 1: were describing that, it reminded me a lot of about 34 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 1: a lot of research that I've done about our own 35 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:15,760 Speaker 1: media ecosystem in the United States and in particular propaganda 36 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 1: feedback loops that we have, for example, on the far right. UM. 37 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 1: And so I started my ears perked up, and I 38 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:28,880 Speaker 1: just started looking at the entire docuseries through that lens, like, Wow, 39 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 1: they're kind of trying to expose this, They're also trying 40 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:35,920 Speaker 1: to create a narrative, like they understand that they're in 41 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:39,359 Speaker 1: an information war and that's what this is about, you know. 42 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:42,920 Speaker 1: And and then I remembered, I said, Prince Harry is 43 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 1: on the Commission on Misinformation or Information Disorder with the 44 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 1: Afton Institute. And I went and researched that, and I 45 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 1: looked at the report that they just put out, and 46 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:54,600 Speaker 1: I thought, you know, I think that there are some 47 00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 1: things that they are actually doing really well in this docuseries, 48 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 1: just from a strategic information were fair perspective, and I 49 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 1: decided to write about it. Okay, So the piece is 50 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:06,240 Speaker 1: so fascinating, and one of the things that you point 51 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:08,800 Speaker 1: out is that it kind of functions as almost like 52 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:12,640 Speaker 1: counter propaganda. Um. You write that that that the film 53 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 1: kind of works to give truth and advantage and our 54 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:17,920 Speaker 1: own information ecosystem. Can you tell us more about what 55 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 1: you mean? Yeah. So I have the sub stack where 56 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:24,920 Speaker 1: I'm teaching basically an online course for anyone who wants 57 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:29,959 Speaker 1: to take it, UM about about information warfare and disinformation 58 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 1: and how we combat it. And one of the things 59 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 1: that I've covered is that we propaganda is such a 60 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 1: loaded word, right, We tend to think of it as 61 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 1: something that's always negative, and it's often used for manipulative 62 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 1: and bad purposes, but there is you know, there is 63 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 1: a place for counterpropaganda where you know, you put out 64 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:54,240 Speaker 1: your narrative. We did this in the Cold War, you know, 65 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 1: we put out our democratic values. We were in ideological battle, 66 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 1: and so you know, in this context, you can't just 67 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:05,840 Speaker 1: seed the information space to an adversary and let them 68 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 1: shape perceptions and opinions. You have to get out there 69 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:12,160 Speaker 1: and tell an affirmative story about the values that you 70 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 1: stand for. That is a form of propagandas white propaganda. 71 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 1: It doesn't mean that it's bad, but I think that 72 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 1: that's what they're doing and that's absolutely what they should 73 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 1: be doing. So there was definitely a time where I 74 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 1: and a lot of us kind of thought that ignoring 75 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:29,920 Speaker 1: certain unsavory things online was the way to go. You know, 76 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:33,040 Speaker 1: when they go low, you go high, be above it, 77 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 1: or don't give that the time of day. Well, it 78 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:39,240 Speaker 1: turns out that the just ignore it strategy was not 79 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 1: the most effective, and it actually allowed conspiracy theories to 80 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:47,600 Speaker 1: fester and get even stronger. Similarly, Asha says we can 81 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:49,599 Speaker 1: take a lesson from the way that Megan and Harry 82 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:52,719 Speaker 1: are not just sitting by while an inaccurate narrative is 83 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:56,360 Speaker 1: created around them. Instead, they're setting the record straight by 84 00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 1: going to battle for the truth. Okay, So I have 85 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:02,240 Speaker 1: to say, like, I work in like media trying to 86 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:05,800 Speaker 1: combat things like missin disinformation and online harassment, and I 87 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:07,719 Speaker 1: guess I would say there was a time where I 88 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 1: thought that there were certain conspiracy theories that like, we're 89 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 1: not worthy of coverage, right, And I felt like covering 90 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:15,839 Speaker 1: them was like legitimizing them. And I feel like I've 91 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 1: spent the last few years of my career kind of 92 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:22,400 Speaker 1: playing catchup for that kind of error in strategy, error 93 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:24,920 Speaker 1: in judgment, because you know, by being like, oh, we're 94 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:27,360 Speaker 1: not going to pay attention to that. That's that's crazy, 95 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:29,839 Speaker 1: Like of course democrats aren't eating babies. We're not going 96 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 1: to even like dignify that with a response. You look 97 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:34,599 Speaker 1: and you're like, oh, wow, this is actually kind of 98 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 1: like gotten out of control. And one of the things 99 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:40,159 Speaker 1: that you write about is that the Netflix documentary is 100 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 1: sort of one of the things that it does. It's 101 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 1: like it's getting into the battle for the truth. It's 102 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 1: like at least being on the field. Can you can 103 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:48,360 Speaker 1: you tell us more about like how you see them 104 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 1: doing that. Yeah, I mean they're they're getting into the 105 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:55,279 Speaker 1: battle because they they're putting something out and they're putting 106 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:58,080 Speaker 1: it out at a level and volume that can compete 107 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 1: with this other propagy at a machine like this whole 108 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:04,840 Speaker 1: tabloid system you know, um there, if they were just 109 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:08,080 Speaker 1: tweeting on their own or doing something you know, as individuals, 110 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 1: even though their celebrities, it's just not going to it's asymmetrical. 111 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:15,600 Speaker 1: It's not going to be able to have the same impact, 112 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 1: whereas this docuseries are kind of uh, they're they're in 113 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 1: the fight. And I think to your point about conspiracy theories, 114 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 1: the problem is that what we have now is that 115 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:34,359 Speaker 1: traditional gatekeepers that used to keep lies and conspiracy theories 116 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:38,920 Speaker 1: and really wacky things to the fringes. Those gatekeepers no 117 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:43,360 Speaker 1: longer exist. You know, traditional journalists, you know that had 118 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:47,799 Speaker 1: journalistic you know, standards and things like that. You most 119 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:49,720 Speaker 1: of that stuff used to stay on the fringes. It 120 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 1: could not become mainstream. Well with social media where everybody 121 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 1: can publish anything everybody, you know, we've democratized media, which 122 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:02,039 Speaker 1: is really good in any ways, but it also means 123 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 1: that now anything can become mainstream, so you can't ignore 124 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 1: them because they will gain traction. And lies travel faster 125 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:13,920 Speaker 1: on the Internet and social media than the truth, so 126 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 1: in many ways, the truth is already catching up, and 127 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 1: so you have to get in there. Ideally you get 128 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 1: in there first, um and you get the first mover 129 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 1: mover advantage if you can. Yeah, what do you think 130 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 1: it says about like our current moment in in media 131 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 1: or like digital media, that yeah, we can no longer 132 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 1: depend on traditional quote unquote like media sources or you know, 133 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:41,240 Speaker 1: figures to be those gatekeepers. Like like when you think 134 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 1: about the state of media, are are you are you 135 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:46,120 Speaker 1: hopeful that we can get to a place where like 136 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:51,800 Speaker 1: truth and thoughtfulness and nuance can compete with lies, conspiracy 137 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 1: theories and inflammatory nonsense. I'm hopeful, but I think it's 138 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 1: going to require a lot of work. So I think 139 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:06,120 Speaker 1: we need to think about those types of information as 140 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 1: sort of psychological hacking. Right, Like when you look in 141 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 1: and see all these people who believe in Q and 142 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 1: on and the Democrats are eating babies or whatever, I mean, 143 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 1: they have been hacked. Their brains have literally been hacked 144 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 1: and you know, hijacked, and that they believe these things. 145 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 1: And when you look at in the cyber intrusion realm, 146 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 1: like the technical intrusion, when people when companies get hacked, 147 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:30,520 Speaker 1: what they talk about is that, yes, you need to 148 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:33,839 Speaker 1: defend and deter the hackers, you need to try to 149 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 1: prevent them from coming in, but at some point you 150 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:39,720 Speaker 1: kind of have to acknowledge everybody's gonna get hacked and 151 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 1: the best thing you can do is to be resilient 152 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:45,840 Speaker 1: when it happens. And so I think the key is 153 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 1: how do we create resilience among the people who are 154 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:53,719 Speaker 1: going to be consuming and are targeted by this information? Um. 155 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 1: One of the things you just mentioned is what it 156 00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 1: is really about media media literacy. How do you train 157 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 1: people to understand the sources of information that they're consuming 158 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:07,360 Speaker 1: and um, be more critical about it. Um, you know, 159 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:11,320 Speaker 1: digital literacy, civic literacy, so that you understand how the 160 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:15,679 Speaker 1: government works, so it becomes harder to believe dumb conspiracy 161 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:18,680 Speaker 1: theories about it, you know. UM. So I think that 162 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 1: there's a lot of things that we need to do 163 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:23,719 Speaker 1: to build resilience. Unfortunately, I think we spend a lot 164 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 1: of time focusing on the social media platforms and how 165 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 1: they should police themselves, and I personally think those platforms 166 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 1: are kind of bad actors, right, Like they're like the 167 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:35,800 Speaker 1: tobacco industry, Like they have they have an addictive product 168 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:38,439 Speaker 1: that's bad for everybody, and people are hooked, and they 169 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:45,680 Speaker 1: have no financial interest in making it better. They really don't. 170 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 1: My my partner works in tobacco control and we make 171 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:52,360 Speaker 1: this comparison all the time where every now and then 172 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:55,320 Speaker 1: Facebook will come out with a very polished ad that's 173 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:58,920 Speaker 1: like Facebook cares about digital literacy or blah blah blah, 174 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:01,360 Speaker 1: and it's like or protect democracy, and it's like then 175 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:03,200 Speaker 1: you would shut down. It's like the same way that 176 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:05,680 Speaker 1: like there's not a saper cigarette. If you were really 177 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:09,360 Speaker 1: interested in like making a product that's not harming everybody 178 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:11,440 Speaker 1: and breaking all of our brains, you would dismantle and 179 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 1: shut down. You would, you would burn the company. Now, 180 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 1: they don't care about you, They don't care about democracy. 181 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 1: They care about making a buck. And if you look 182 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:24,080 Speaker 1: at the top performing sites on Facebook, for example, what 183 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:27,080 Speaker 1: is it like ripe bard and dam Bungee. I mean 184 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:30,680 Speaker 1: these are you know, during COVID, it was the you know, 185 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:33,960 Speaker 1: COVID misinformation sites, the anti vack sites that were that 186 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:37,559 Speaker 1: were the most I had the most engagement on Facebook, 187 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 1: So um, no, they don't care about you or me. 188 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 1: And I think, you know, because the damage is in 189 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:49,679 Speaker 1: many ways invisible. Unlike with tobacco, you're not you know, 190 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:52,120 Speaker 1: you don't have people dying of cancer, and when you 191 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:56,320 Speaker 1: can point to something, it becomes harder to really wrap 192 00:10:56,360 --> 00:11:00,600 Speaker 1: our minds around. Although with the Facebook whistleblower last year 193 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 1: Francis Hugan, you know, we have seen you know, harms 194 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 1: manifest for example with teens, teenage girls and suicidal tendencies 195 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:13,559 Speaker 1: and things like that that have come out of social media. 196 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 1: So maybe if we can start to approach it in 197 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:20,680 Speaker 1: a public health mindset the way we did with smoking, 198 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:23,000 Speaker 1: maybe we can start to get some regulations. But I 199 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 1: really think the regulatory aspect is going to be very 200 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 1: slow and long term, and what we need in the 201 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 1: short term is to build resilience on our side. Let's 202 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:51,520 Speaker 1: take a quick break at our back. It doesn't sound 203 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 1: like you're holding out hope for like certainly not for 204 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:58,680 Speaker 1: tech leaders at platforms to police themselves appropriately or responsibly 205 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:01,400 Speaker 1: or ethically. It doesn't like you're really putting a lot 206 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:05,199 Speaker 1: of hope into like government to sort of take action. 207 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:09,080 Speaker 1: So an absence of like tech leaders doing anything or 208 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:13,440 Speaker 1: government doing anything, what like, Like is the resilience factor 209 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 1: on us as individuals, like just like really making sure 210 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:20,520 Speaker 1: that we understand what we're consuming and what it's like, 211 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 1: what it's trying to get us to think or not think. Yes, 212 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:27,960 Speaker 1: I think that it's up to us as consumers of 213 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 1: this technology, as consumers of the information like the substance 214 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:36,679 Speaker 1: of the information, and I think also as citizens in 215 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:40,680 Speaker 1: terms of understanding our relationship with other people. Most of 216 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:45,439 Speaker 1: these disinformation narratives, like even the Megan Harry thing, like 217 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:48,840 Speaker 1: it's all about trying to create cleavages, right like whose 218 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:50,839 Speaker 1: side are you on? Are you? Are you Harry Megan? 219 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 1: Are you William Kate? Like it's all about division, division 220 00:12:55,280 --> 00:13:00,480 Speaker 1: and tribalism and whose team are you on? And what 221 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:03,199 Speaker 1: we need to do I think also is think about 222 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:06,720 Speaker 1: our relationships offline, because the more that we can build 223 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:12,240 Speaker 1: true human connection in real life across all of these 224 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 1: different social cleavages and beliefs and ideologies or whatever, the 225 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:20,600 Speaker 1: much it becomes much harder to divide you when you're 226 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 1: when you're online. Yeah, that's something that we talked about 227 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 1: a lot on the show is the way that these 228 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:33,200 Speaker 1: because things become kind of like turned into a really 229 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 1: specific binary And so if you're someone like I'm not 230 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:39,199 Speaker 1: a huge person who is into the Royals that much 231 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:42,040 Speaker 1: as a black woman, I liked it that I like 232 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:43,960 Speaker 1: the idea of like a black princess. I know she 233 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 1: wasn't a princess, but whatever, we definitely called her black princess. 234 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:50,319 Speaker 1: I liked that. Like, I was no huge Megan Markles fan. 235 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:53,359 Speaker 1: I wasn't like a big consumer of media around the Royals, 236 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 1: but the way that it was so clear that it 237 00:13:56,520 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 1: was like, well, are you a kid or a Megan 238 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:01,520 Speaker 1: and like how racialized and criticized that was. There wasn't 239 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 1: really a place for the casual person who was like, 240 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:07,080 Speaker 1: I'm interested in like casually following this person that I 241 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:10,720 Speaker 1: kind of like, but I don't necessarily want to feel 242 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 1: like I need to take these take a binary side 243 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 1: in this way. And so when things become flattened out 244 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 1: into this like tribalistic binary vibe, the people who are 245 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:25,080 Speaker 1: interested in just having thoughtful conversations or don't really feel 246 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 1: one right or the other kind of get drowned out 247 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:28,920 Speaker 1: because it's like Are you with her or with her? 248 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 1: Are you with these people? Are those people? Like? It 249 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 1: really doesn't leave a place for nuance, No, it doesn't 250 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:40,080 Speaker 1: at all. Um. There's a term for it. It's called Cyberbalkanization, 251 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 1: which means that you know, when you're online, things become 252 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:44,440 Speaker 1: very narrow. I mean, even if you look at something 253 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:47,600 Speaker 1: like a Facebook group, right, it's it's all like along 254 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:50,680 Speaker 1: one theme and one topic, and it's great, it's a 255 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:53,400 Speaker 1: great way to bring people together along that dimension, but 256 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 1: you're also not connecting on all these other dimensions. The 257 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 1: other thing that happens on social media is is you're 258 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 1: creating these tribal alliances, but you're also not like exchanging 259 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 1: actual human cues. Like you know, you're not seeing people's faces, 260 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:12,200 Speaker 1: and you know you're not seeing the other side, right, 261 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:15,680 Speaker 1: which makes it you know, if you're actually in a 262 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 1: debate with someone in real life, like there's a certain 263 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 1: amount of respect and you know, because you're you're human, right, Like, 264 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 1: you actually have a human connection there. In person, it's 265 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:31,480 Speaker 1: much easier to become more toxic because it's so depersonalized 266 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 1: online and the other the other side is kind of 267 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:39,640 Speaker 1: abstract or anonymous in a way, um, and it gets 268 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:43,000 Speaker 1: really ugly really fast. Yeah. I have found myself as 269 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 1: a like a personal exercise trying to really engage in 270 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 1: discourse online with strangers in a way that really I 271 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 1: don't know. I just so something about the exercise of 272 00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:59,160 Speaker 1: like getting into a debate on Twitter or something like 273 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 1: your color is your your your fur is up, like 274 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:03,720 Speaker 1: you're just like and so like you can I feel 275 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:06,240 Speaker 1: it myself, like you can so quickly be like so 276 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 1: hostile and You're like, well, if we were just two 277 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 1: people talking at a cafe, would I default to hostility? 278 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 1: And so I'm really as a personal exercise trying to 279 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:17,840 Speaker 1: like really be mindful of that dynamic of like, if 280 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:20,280 Speaker 1: somebody is disagreeing with me about something that really is 281 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:24,600 Speaker 1: of no consequence on the internet, what like is it 282 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 1: Why is my first instinct to be like a hostile 283 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 1: response or I'm part of me wonders if it's because 284 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:31,800 Speaker 1: a lot of the times, like you, you kind of 285 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 1: kind of sense that you're like followers are watching and 286 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:36,760 Speaker 1: maybe you want to like really dunk on this person 287 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 1: so that other people will be like, yeah, I go you. 288 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 1: And I'm just trying to really unlearn all of that 289 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:45,600 Speaker 1: because I do think it's like not the healthiest instinct 290 00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 1: to show up with absolutely, And you have to remember 291 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:53,000 Speaker 1: that these platforms are sort of designed for that, right um. 292 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 1: They want you to Emotional reactivity drives engagement, and that's 293 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:02,840 Speaker 1: why the content that triggers that emotional reactivity is going 294 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:05,080 Speaker 1: to be the stuff that you most likely see, Like 295 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:07,639 Speaker 1: you're not going to see the boring post that you're like, oh, 296 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:11,119 Speaker 1: I just learned about the political situation and you know 297 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 1: New Guinea or I don't know whatever, Right um, It's 298 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 1: gonna be something really crazy and that pushes your buttons 299 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:22,680 Speaker 1: and that's the whole point. That's what keeps you addicted. 300 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 1: Then you start scrolling and then you start you know, responding, 301 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:28,920 Speaker 1: and you know that's what makes the money. You are 302 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:32,440 Speaker 1: the product. That's what you have to remember. And I 303 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:35,400 Speaker 1: I am with you, like I succumbed to it myself, 304 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,000 Speaker 1: but I I'm trying to be more mindful and to 305 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:43,119 Speaker 1: think about when I get triggered that way, that's the 306 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 1: cue to get off, because at the end of the day, 307 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:47,680 Speaker 1: it's actually not that worth it, Like who are these 308 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:49,800 Speaker 1: people and you don't even know if they're real. It 309 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 1: could be like some it could be Ivan in St. 310 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 1: Petersburg sitting in a troll form like you don't even 311 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:59,760 Speaker 1: know um so, but yeah, that what you're feeling is real, 312 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:03,960 Speaker 1: um And it's designed to do that because that's what 313 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:08,399 Speaker 1: keeps you on the platform. As someone who has worked 314 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:12,760 Speaker 1: in counter intelligence, like, I don't even know how to 315 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 1: ask this without sounding not informed. With the way that 316 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:18,280 Speaker 1: I'm framing this does not sound informed. Feel free to 317 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 1: let me know, because I am certainly not the expert. 318 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 1: But you know, you mentioned like you don't even know 319 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:24,159 Speaker 1: if these people are real. And we've covered quite a 320 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:30,120 Speaker 1: bit this idea of bad actors impersonating people getting into 321 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:34,680 Speaker 1: online communities and like causing chaos and confusion. What is 322 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:39,159 Speaker 1: going on there? Like like why would a for like 323 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 1: why would it foreign Asian be invested in me bridget 324 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:45,439 Speaker 1: todd um in my kitchen getting hot under the collar 325 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 1: and like rage tweeting somebody like like like why is 326 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:54,520 Speaker 1: that a tactic that we see? Because when they do 327 00:18:54,560 --> 00:19:03,439 Speaker 1: it on a mass scale, it erodes try among the citizenry. 328 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:05,879 Speaker 1: I mean, what how you feel when you're online is 329 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:07,920 Speaker 1: going to carry out carry over when you go out 330 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:10,960 Speaker 1: into real life, right, Like that you carry that with you. 331 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:13,960 Speaker 1: I mean, I have found even in the last five years, 332 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:16,720 Speaker 1: like I'm kind of more mistrustful in general, and I 333 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 1: walk around like I see people you know, and it's 334 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:22,919 Speaker 1: I have to like think about who I am and 335 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:27,399 Speaker 1: who I want to be in the space. But it 336 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:30,879 Speaker 1: it's Sow's division and it's So's chaos. And with the 337 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 1: more that you're on Twitter arguing with some person, you're 338 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:38,840 Speaker 1: not out uh doing you know, you're not volunteering, You're 339 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 1: not um being civically engaged. You're not um you know, 340 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:47,919 Speaker 1: going to a show at a theater or sports of 341 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:50,960 Speaker 1: it where you're like, you know, forging. I think healthier 342 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 1: connections and for places like Russia that can't compete with 343 00:19:55,200 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 1: us technologically, militarily, economically, They're objective is to have us 344 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 1: implode from within, to create dysfunction and discord, have us 345 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:09,520 Speaker 1: all hate each other, ideally, have us all shoot each other, 346 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 1: and essentially bring and have us lose faith in our 347 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 1: institutions and bring our entire form of society and governments 348 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:23,439 Speaker 1: to a standstill. That's what they want. And I hate 349 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:26,359 Speaker 1: to say, I mean, like I agree, and I hate 350 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:30,600 Speaker 1: to say that we have people in the United States 351 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:33,959 Speaker 1: who are kind of like doing this like helping them along. 352 00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:37,080 Speaker 1: It's like absolutely, It's like makes me want to pull 353 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:39,399 Speaker 1: my hair out where I'm like, don't you see that 354 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:41,880 Speaker 1: this is what they want? Don't you see that you're 355 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:47,520 Speaker 1: just doing the work of bad actors for them? Yes? No, absolutely, 356 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:52,399 Speaker 1: I think, um, their interests are aligned with a subset 357 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:59,040 Speaker 1: of UH actors, including political actors. I mean they're we 358 00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:02,359 Speaker 1: got we have a group now that's holding our House 359 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:05,840 Speaker 1: of Representatives hostage, right, these are people who trying to 360 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:08,160 Speaker 1: overthrow the government. Yes, it's one of those things where 361 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:10,639 Speaker 1: there's a little bit of truth because I can understand 362 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:13,160 Speaker 1: somebody who was like, I'm not going to trust these 363 00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:15,440 Speaker 1: people to govern, to govern for me, and it's like, yeah, 364 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:19,119 Speaker 1: I could like, like, I I agree that having people 365 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 1: lose trust in our institutions it's like bad and like 366 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 1: what bad actors want. But on the other hand, part 367 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:26,920 Speaker 1: of me is like, well, they're not making it very 368 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:31,400 Speaker 1: difficult for someone trusting these like cookie people. I will 369 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:35,040 Speaker 1: say I think in that regard, the midterm elections were 370 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:38,679 Speaker 1: I think heartening. You know, you had a lot of 371 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:43,280 Speaker 1: these election deniers defeated, and I do think that there's 372 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:48,159 Speaker 1: I think the pendulum is gonna move, maybe slowly, but 373 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:50,000 Speaker 1: it is going to move in the direction because people 374 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:52,119 Speaker 1: are sick of it. And I do think people are 375 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:56,200 Speaker 1: more aware now of you know, what is being done 376 00:21:56,240 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 1: to us and um that you know, it's up to 377 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 1: us to try to take it in another direction. Absolutely, 378 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:08,040 Speaker 1: I kind of agree with you. I think that people 379 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:11,360 Speaker 1: that are just like sick of it, it's enough already, 380 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:13,639 Speaker 1: like already, yeah, Like we like we have to be 381 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:19,240 Speaker 1: able to have like a baseline understanding of reality. And 382 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:25,920 Speaker 1: if we don't have that, like we don't have anything more. 383 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:39,600 Speaker 1: After a quick break, let's get right back into it. 384 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:42,359 Speaker 1: One of the things that you talk about in your 385 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:46,520 Speaker 1: piece is something called the propaganda feedback loop that that 386 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:49,760 Speaker 1: was coined by the Columbia law professor benkler Uh And 387 00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 1: this I really blew my mind and the way that 388 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:56,440 Speaker 1: you saw it working in the dialogue around Harry and Megan. 389 00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:58,240 Speaker 1: Can you tell us a bit about how you see that, 390 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:01,240 Speaker 1: what it is, and how you see it function. Yeah, 391 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:05,479 Speaker 1: So the propaganda feedback loop, this is developed by Columbia 392 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:09,160 Speaker 1: law professor Yoki Bankler, who co authored a book called 393 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:13,320 Speaker 1: Network Propaganda. But what they were describing is that in 394 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:19,040 Speaker 1: the United States, the the right wing media system is 395 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:24,800 Speaker 1: basically a closed system. So you have sort of the 396 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:30,360 Speaker 1: symbiotic relationships where these outlets like Fox News provide favorable 397 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 1: coverage of particular political figures who then will go on 398 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:37,120 Speaker 1: those shows, and then the audience for that is sort 399 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:40,240 Speaker 1: of siloed, right, like they are not getting other narratives 400 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:42,399 Speaker 1: because they're sort of sucked into this, and so they're 401 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:45,560 Speaker 1: in an alternate reality. To get to what you were 402 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:47,760 Speaker 1: saying before, like before you live in alternate realities. We 403 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:51,280 Speaker 1: can't function. That is an alternate reality. It's very hard 404 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:56,879 Speaker 1: to pierce that. What that um this is unrelated to 405 00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 1: the meganpiece, but what what they are trying to show 406 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:03,760 Speaker 1: in that book is um that the media, the center 407 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:08,199 Speaker 1: of gravity on the left and right are asymmetrical, meaning 408 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 1: that that propaganda feedback loop is existing in UM is 409 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:19,400 Speaker 1: a system that allows for conspiracy theories and false narratives 410 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:21,679 Speaker 1: and all of that being and there's nothing external that 411 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:24,440 Speaker 1: can come in and check it or correct for it. 412 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:28,280 Speaker 1: Whereas even if you have more of a left bias 413 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:32,440 Speaker 1: in traditional media CNN, MSNBC, whatever, there are still guard 414 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 1: rails there that prevent largely you know, complete conspiracies or 415 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 1: false narratives from piercing it. And so you have like 416 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:44,400 Speaker 1: two different media ecosystems, and one that is just more 417 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:47,960 Speaker 1: truthful than the other. What I saw playing out with 418 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:52,159 Speaker 1: Megan and Harry is that they were describing a similar 419 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 1: feedback loop with the British tabloids and the Royal palace. 420 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:01,840 Speaker 1: Um it's called the Royal rota, which is this I 421 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:06,080 Speaker 1: guess some handful of these tabloids or these outlets, and 422 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:10,040 Speaker 1: there's just sort of this implicit understanding that as long 423 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:15,879 Speaker 1: as the members of the royal family pose and you know, 424 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:22,680 Speaker 1: give them content, both in terms of you know, photographs, stories, 425 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 1: dirt on other people in the royal family, then they 426 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:29,760 Speaker 1: get rewarded by favorable coverage or at least by distracting 427 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:32,879 Speaker 1: from bad coverage by covering other people. It's really sad, 428 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 1: I mean it was, you know. It's essentially they're like 429 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:40,160 Speaker 1: circus animals where they have to be on display all 430 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:44,560 Speaker 1: the time, and this media system can like punish them 431 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 1: if they're not, if they don't play along, then they 432 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:50,399 Speaker 1: can like you know, circulate these narratives and it creates 433 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:53,400 Speaker 1: these incentives for members of the royal family to actually 434 00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:57,040 Speaker 1: throw each other under the bus in order to take 435 00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 1: you know, take the heat off themselves, or to get 436 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:03,880 Speaker 1: and you for whatever reason. And you see this playing out, 437 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:07,600 Speaker 1: I think, you know, with even Harry and his brother, right, 438 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:09,159 Speaker 1: I think this was one of the main reasons that 439 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:12,399 Speaker 1: he was really upset with his brother. Um. I don't 440 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:16,760 Speaker 1: know that the public audience in the UK is as 441 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:20,760 Speaker 1: you know, if there's as much capture as there is here. 442 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:22,800 Speaker 1: I don't know if there is siloed, so I'm not 443 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:26,199 Speaker 1: sure if it's necessarily the exact same as our the 444 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:29,600 Speaker 1: propaganda feedback loop on the right here, but that that 445 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:34,880 Speaker 1: symbiotic relationship between the Royal Palace and these tabloids, to me, 446 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 1: um was what I saw playing out. A truism about 447 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 1: false information is that while it can be good to 448 00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:45,440 Speaker 1: debunk lies on the Internet, it doesn't always work, especially 449 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 1: with folks who are deeply committed to a false reality. 450 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:51,560 Speaker 1: So rather than trying to debunk all the different conspiracy 451 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:55,720 Speaker 1: theories and misleading statements out there one by one, like no, 452 00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:57,800 Speaker 1: Megan Markle did not wear a fake tell me to 453 00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:00,280 Speaker 1: fake a pregnancy, or no, she did not use a 454 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 1: doll as a standing for her baby, because that would 455 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:05,879 Speaker 1: never work for people who are fully and deeply invested 456 00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:10,200 Speaker 1: in an alternate reality. Instead, Megan and Harry are shifting 457 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 1: the conversation. One of the things that I think is 458 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:15,119 Speaker 1: so fascinating that you point out in your piece is 459 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:19,240 Speaker 1: how I think because it being this like closed feedback 460 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:21,800 Speaker 1: loop where an outsider is never gonna be able to 461 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:24,240 Speaker 1: pierce it, never gonna be able to like somebody who 462 00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:26,400 Speaker 1: is a true believer, they're probably never gonna be able 463 00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:30,960 Speaker 1: to really get any kind of alternative, you know, perspective 464 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:34,680 Speaker 1: in there is that they don't really focus on debunking 465 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:37,920 Speaker 1: a lot of the lies and misinformation coming out of 466 00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:41,080 Speaker 1: out of this. Instead, they kind of change the narrative 467 00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:44,000 Speaker 1: and like peel back the curtain as World of Explored 468 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 1: explore the ways that the monarchy is this like dysfunctional, 469 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:50,320 Speaker 1: toxic system. So do you think that's like why they 470 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:52,080 Speaker 1: sort of do it that way, that they're like, we're 471 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:55,720 Speaker 1: not going to debunk all of the lies and half truths, 472 00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 1: we are instead going to like tell a different story. Yeah, 473 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:02,239 Speaker 1: they just change into the debate, right, Like they just 474 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:06,560 Speaker 1: reframed the whole controversy, which I think was smart a 475 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:08,240 Speaker 1: because of what you just said. You're not going to 476 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:11,119 Speaker 1: convince people who already believe something, but you're just changing 477 00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:16,400 Speaker 1: the paradigm and you're exposing how how the tactic works. 478 00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 1: This is the key to neutralizing, as we would say 479 00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 1: in the intelligence world, disinformation is. I mean, you can 480 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:29,800 Speaker 1: fact check, you can counter that's and that's helpful, but 481 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:34,880 Speaker 1: it's often not super productive people people, It's very hard 482 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 1: to undo someone's belief what they have it. What you 483 00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:41,640 Speaker 1: can do is explained to them what's being done to them, 484 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:45,240 Speaker 1: and then that might open their eyes and make them 485 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 1: more skeptical of what they consume after that. Right, Um, 486 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:51,760 Speaker 1: you're kind of pulling back the curtain and I think 487 00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:56,560 Speaker 1: they did that very smartly, and by reframing the entire 488 00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:00,560 Speaker 1: controversy in terms of, you know, this is how the 489 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:05,320 Speaker 1: royal family is exploited by this you know, tabloid system 490 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:11,600 Speaker 1: that makes money off of this voyeurism of the public. Um, 491 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 1: it really places both those outlets and I think the 492 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:18,720 Speaker 1: Royal Palace in a defensive posture because now they have 493 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:21,920 Speaker 1: to explain like why do you go along with this? Right? 494 00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:24,600 Speaker 1: Why are you into the outlets? Like why are you 495 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:27,440 Speaker 1: exploiting them. So I mean, I'm not surprised that. I'm 496 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:29,880 Speaker 1: sure the British media is really really mad because they 497 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:34,320 Speaker 1: just got completely exposed and called out. Yeah, and I'm 498 00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:38,160 Speaker 1: sure when Harry's book comes out next week, like, I'm 499 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:40,720 Speaker 1: sure they're all like nobody in the in the Palace 500 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:43,200 Speaker 1: is like having a good time. I'm sure everybody it's 501 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 1: very stressed of a lot on their plates. Yes, I 502 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:50,160 Speaker 1: think I read some snippets of that today or I 503 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:52,920 Speaker 1: saw some tidbits like I guess there's drama about how 504 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:56,680 Speaker 1: William was beating up on Harry. I don't know something 505 00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 1: like that, So it sounds it sounds like lots of 506 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 1: drama will be revealed. What do you think that either 507 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:07,320 Speaker 1: the Netflix show or just generally like the media ecosystem 508 00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:10,800 Speaker 1: around the Megan and Harry, do you think that it 509 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:14,280 Speaker 1: tells us anything about how we can counter other more 510 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:18,400 Speaker 1: like broad or wide spread disinformation campaigns like critical race 511 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,320 Speaker 1: theory or you know, drag queens are out to harm 512 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:23,440 Speaker 1: your kids like things like that, Like do you think 513 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 1: there's any lessons to be learned there? There are definitely 514 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 1: lessons to be learned, And you know, the CRT thing 515 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:32,840 Speaker 1: I mean the reframing the controversy is really important there, right, 516 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:38,760 Speaker 1: because that's a very deliberate, uh psy op basically a 517 00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:43,360 Speaker 1: psychological operation to take this term critical race theory and 518 00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:47,480 Speaker 1: basically make it a catch all phrase for teaching anything 519 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:51,000 Speaker 1: having to do with race or you know, no one 520 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:54,720 Speaker 1: can define it, and that's that's the key, right, It 521 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:59,200 Speaker 1: becomes shorthand it's like Hunter Biden's laptop, it's you know, groomers, 522 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:03,280 Speaker 1: all these like these buzzwords that no one really understands, 523 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 1: but it just becomes associated with that. So if you 524 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,520 Speaker 1: try to engage on that term, you're always going to 525 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:11,360 Speaker 1: be losing. I would see people saying, but critical race 526 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:14,200 Speaker 1: theory isn't taught in you know, elementary schools. It's not. 527 00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:18,400 Speaker 1: But at this point you're already you're accepting the term. 528 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:21,840 Speaker 1: Why are you Why are you fighting about that? You know, 529 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 1: why not respond with why would you not want children 530 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:29,800 Speaker 1: to learn about the history of the United States, including 531 00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 1: stand with slavery? Like that's the question, whatever you want 532 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:37,000 Speaker 1: to call it. But you know, so it just to 533 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:40,760 Speaker 1: to reframe it, to stop using the terms that are 534 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,520 Speaker 1: being given to you, being stopped using the assumptions that 535 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:45,840 Speaker 1: are being given to you because it's a trap. It's 536 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 1: a trap to make you engage in that and then 537 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:52,280 Speaker 1: to basically, you know, keep you tied up in that loop. 538 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:55,800 Speaker 1: You gotta get out of the loop. Got get out 539 00:31:55,800 --> 00:32:00,360 Speaker 1: of the loop. That's that's words to live by. One 540 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:03,720 Speaker 1: of my last questions for you, how is Diana is 541 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:09,480 Speaker 1: a musical? Oh? My god? Did you watch that clip? 542 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:13,160 Speaker 1: I I watched the breakdancing because I was like, really, 543 00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:18,600 Speaker 1: wasn't it so bad? It's like, I wasn't I had 544 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:20,719 Speaker 1: nothing to do with the production, and I was embarrassed. 545 00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:24,760 Speaker 1: I was so embarrassed. I know, I know, I was like, 546 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:28,800 Speaker 1: aren't thee Like do these people have no dignity? Um? No, 547 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:32,080 Speaker 1: it's oh, it's so bad. You have to It's actually 548 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:34,600 Speaker 1: so bad. You have to watch it. So it's so bad. 549 00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:37,200 Speaker 1: It loops back around too good. Yes, you have to 550 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:46,960 Speaker 1: watch it. There's a there's a there's a the Thrilla 551 00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:51,640 Speaker 1: in Manila with Camilla, which is like a faue like 552 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:54,160 Speaker 1: boxing fight between Diana and come out. Like. I mean, 553 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:57,360 Speaker 1: it's so it's just so dumb and the lyrics are 554 00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:00,600 Speaker 1: so dumb. And this person who plays diet Anna is 555 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 1: not a convincing Diana at all right, Like it's this 556 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:07,160 Speaker 1: sort of like why are you doing this? But you 557 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:09,840 Speaker 1: can't stop watching it. I was like rubbernecking the whole time. 558 00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:13,480 Speaker 1: All right, Well, that's going on my list. It sounds 559 00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:16,480 Speaker 1: like choices were made in this production. Definitely have to 560 00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:21,440 Speaker 1: check it out. Yes, where can people follow all the 561 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:26,000 Speaker 1: very fascinating work that you are up to? I think 562 00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:28,200 Speaker 1: the best place if you're interested in the topics we 563 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:32,800 Speaker 1: talked about today is my sub stack Asha Rainappa dot 564 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:36,720 Speaker 1: sub stack dot com. UM. That's where I've been writing 565 00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:40,680 Speaker 1: about this stuff. I have free content. If you're interested 566 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:44,240 Speaker 1: in taking the course, you can sign up for that too. UM. 567 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:47,040 Speaker 1: I am on Twitter, though, I'll be honest, I'm trying 568 00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:49,800 Speaker 1: to clean off. I'm trying to use that as a 569 00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:55,680 Speaker 1: tool to enhance other parts of my professional life. UM 570 00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:58,800 Speaker 1: and to not let it suck up my whole time. 571 00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:00,840 Speaker 1: That's one of my New Year's solutions. So but you 572 00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:03,920 Speaker 1: can follow me there to it's Asha rang Appa Underscore 573 00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:07,720 Speaker 1: UM and you can. Those are the two main places. 574 00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:14,680 Speaker 1: Got a story about an interesting thing in tech or 575 00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:16,560 Speaker 1: just want to say hi. You can reach us at 576 00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:19,360 Speaker 1: Hello at Tangdi dot com. You can also find transcripts 577 00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:21,840 Speaker 1: for today's episode at tangdi dot com. There Are No 578 00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:23,960 Speaker 1: Girls on the Internet was created by me Bridget Tod. 579 00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:27,360 Speaker 1: It's a production of iHeart Radio and Unboss creative Jonathan 580 00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:30,400 Speaker 1: Strickland as our executive producer. Terry Harrison is our producer 581 00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:33,919 Speaker 1: and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm 582 00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:36,799 Speaker 1: your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, 583 00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:40,160 Speaker 1: rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts 584 00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:42,920 Speaker 1: from iHeart Radio, check out the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast, 585 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:44,280 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.