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Speaker 1: Hello, sminthy listeners. This is Emily, and this is and

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Speaker 1: this is stuff I'm never told you, and we are

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Speaker 1: excited to talk through a topic that I know gets

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Speaker 1: be and I riled up over here, and I think

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Speaker 1: everyone and I've talked to you about this has something

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Speaker 1: to say. We're talking about the connection between feminism and

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Speaker 1: your hair on the top of your head, So we

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Speaker 1: are talking about the politics of hair, hairstyles, hair length,

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Speaker 1: all kinds of hair conversations will be had today, and

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Speaker 1: we're really interested to continue this conversation. I know Ceing C.

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Speaker 1: Christman Caroline did tackle some of these topics under an

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Speaker 1: episode that's fantastic around curly hair and also an episode

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Speaker 1: specifically about black hair story sort of the history of

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Speaker 1: black hair, and those are topics we are going to

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Speaker 1: touch upon today. But really we want to make that

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Speaker 1: connection between your personal political beliefs and your hairstyle. I

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Speaker 1: think I want to start by giving you a little

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Speaker 1: feedback into what our hair looks like. Emily, what does

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Speaker 1: your hair look like? So I am currently rocking what

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Speaker 1: I consider a pretty fierce pixie um and I bleach

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Speaker 1: the heck out of my hair once a month to

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Speaker 1: make it pretty platinumsh blonde, and at the moment, I'm

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm fading out a little bit of a Mermaid

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Speaker 1: hair experiment that I did, so I have some green

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Speaker 1: and blue and maybe a little bit of pink in

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Speaker 1: my hair right now. It looks good. We'll put a

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Speaker 1: picture in the show now, Okay, great, we will definitely

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Speaker 1: be doing that because I was very proud of my

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Speaker 1: Mermaid hair. And how about to um, I'm rocking a

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Speaker 1: long Marley twist inspired by Solange Knowles. Um, it's great

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Speaker 1: for a galama go. And Solange has a lot to

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Speaker 1: say about hair. She does. She has a lot to

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Speaker 1: sing about hair. So let's take it back for a second.

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Speaker 1: Because I was fascinated to realize that hair has long

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Speaker 1: been political hair for women in particular, um, starting primarily

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Speaker 1: if we want to keep it relatively modern, from the

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Speaker 1: liberated women of the nineteen twenties. I read this great

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Speaker 1: article on Huffington Post by re Re Raquette, a hair

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Speaker 1: stylist and badass feminist, who says that when women in

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Speaker 1: the nineteen twenties chopped their hair short and got that

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Speaker 1: sort of androgynous flapper fashion moment, that short hair was

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Speaker 1: a reflection of the culture of the times and a

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Speaker 1: reflection of the start to the women's liberation movement. Really

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Speaker 1: totally into it. Seems like chopping off your hair as

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Speaker 1: a woman is always sort of signified this kind of rebellious,

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Speaker 1: devil make hair like kind of attitude throughout the It's

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Speaker 1: so the opposite of like classical Romanesque Adam and Eve

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Speaker 1: depictions of what long, flowing, beautiful feminine hair should potentially

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Speaker 1: look like. And then we get to the nineteen seventies

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Speaker 1: and sixties, we've got both long hippie yoko on no

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Speaker 1: style hair. My mom was such a flower child. She

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Speaker 1: had hair down to her behind. She long natural brown

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Speaker 1: long hair. And my mom was born and raised in Columbia,

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Speaker 1: South America, so she was rocking this sort of hippie

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Speaker 1: you know, half Latina. Look, your mom sounds gorgeous. My

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Speaker 1: mom is gorgeous. I was amazing. So the long hair

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Speaker 1: of the hippie movement feels like it was part of

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Speaker 1: that flowing free love. It like almost is a physical

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Speaker 1: manifestation totally. It's like you're you're sort of wearing the

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Speaker 1: you know, the times on your head and the kind

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Speaker 1: of way right like women are sort of liberated and

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Speaker 1: free and so like they're sort of representing that on

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Speaker 1: their hair. Yeah, it's it's also very low main, it's

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Speaker 1: like dirty in some ways. There's definitely a grungy look

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Speaker 1: to it where it's like woodstock es. And then we

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Speaker 1: get all the way to the nine eighties with punks

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Speaker 1: rocking their mohawks and nineties, right, we've got that heroin

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Speaker 1: chic kind of stringy look happening and and uh em

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Speaker 1: thinking Kate Moss in the center part was interesting. Look,

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Speaker 1: it was yeah that I totally pardoned my hair straight

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Speaker 1: down the middle and try to keep it as straight

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Speaker 1: as possible down to the side, posh spice like before

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Speaker 1: she was known as Victoria Beckham. Um, but it's you know,

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Speaker 1: it's just interesting even they say re Rehear writes in

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Speaker 1: is my hair style a feminist statement? She says the

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Speaker 1: dip die a k a. The bolliage movement from more

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Speaker 1: recent years reflects a need for women to spend longer

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Speaker 1: times between hair appointments due to a reduction in luxury spending,

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Speaker 1: which to me, I can't tell if that makes sense.

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Speaker 1: Is that a stretch like isn't bolyage or also a

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Speaker 1: fashion trend or is it a financial reflection? I mean,

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Speaker 1: that's such a good question. I mean I think that

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Speaker 1: certainly hair choices and hairstyles reflect a sort of economic times.

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Speaker 1: But I also think it's one of those things that

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Speaker 1: like it could just be a trend, right, Like it

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Speaker 1: could just be like this is how people wear their hair. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I think that's really the crux of today's conversation

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Speaker 1: is how much can we read into a woman's hairstyle

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Speaker 1: and is it fair? Is it fair to judge someone's

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Speaker 1: level of feminism or wokeness based on what they're racking

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Speaker 1: in terms of locks on the top of their head.

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Speaker 1: And I think today we want to really focus on

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Speaker 1: the modern considerations of how you do your hair and

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Speaker 1: what that might say about you, and if it's even fair,

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Speaker 1: really doesn't say anything right or do it has? Maybe

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Speaker 1: it has nothing to do with with your feminist political beliefs.

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Speaker 1: So let's talk a little bit about one article I

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Speaker 1: found really compelling here on the post Trump cut. Did

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Speaker 1: you see that? I did see that. So what this

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Speaker 1: is is just like after a bad breakup, you sometimes

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Speaker 1: you I mean, if you've ever seen any kind of

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Speaker 1: like roumantic comedy. You've seen this scene where she's finally

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Speaker 1: jumped this awful boyfriend or he's dumped her, and then

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Speaker 1: she cuts her hair because you know, she's just like

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Speaker 1: done with this, she's ready for a change. Um, you know,

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Speaker 1: cutting off those locks, whole new her. UM. I'm thinking

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Speaker 1: of examples from popular culture. If you watch the last

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Speaker 1: season her Real Housewives, UM jewels when she gets a divorce,

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Speaker 1: she has she's known for her like long blowing hair,

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Speaker 1: and then at the reunion after she's divorced, she's a

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Speaker 1: pixie guy. Seen this. Um. So basically this is the

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Speaker 1: same idea, but with Trump. So a lot of women

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Speaker 1: reported um getting these short haircuts after Trump won the election.

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Speaker 1: And so there's a really funny bit in the article

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Speaker 1: where a woman goes to like a hairstylist and she's like,

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Speaker 1: you Trump, think the opposite when when the stylist asked,

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Speaker 1: what do you want from your style? UM? I thought

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Speaker 1: that was telling and it's ironic. So we're talking about

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Speaker 1: an article in New York Magazine which is called The Cut,

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Speaker 1: by the way, So it's it's such a meta it's

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Speaker 1: such a meta article. But there you know, this is

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Speaker 1: all anecdotal too. We're hearing from Salon's in d C

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Speaker 1: in particular that there's been a significant uptick in last

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Speaker 1: minute bookings after the election to make drastics sweeping changes

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Speaker 1: to your look, similar to how when you feel like

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Speaker 1: your life is going through a major structural overhaul, through

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Speaker 1: a big breakup or something of that nature, there's this

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Speaker 1: um grasping at what you can control, what is in

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Speaker 1: your power, what you have agency over. And I think

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Speaker 1: this is telling right. We have a woman quoted in

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Speaker 1: this article who lives in d C. She's an Atlanta

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Speaker 1: Natives forty five years old. A to the November eight

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Speaker 1: election upset, Evans fell into a downward spiral. Quote I

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Speaker 1: cried for three days end quote. I felt quote again,

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Speaker 1: I felt like it was the worst thing politically that

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Speaker 1: ever happened in my lifetime. It was catastrophic. By Friday,

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Speaker 1: she noticed Gray's growing in, so she put on her

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Speaker 1: big girl panties and dragged herself to the drug store.

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Speaker 1: Literally without thinking, I grabbed the natural black box by Garnier.

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Speaker 1: She says, I was like effort. The election deadened my soul.

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Speaker 1: I think I wanted to do something defined to feel stronger.

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Speaker 1: So she dyes her hair black and goes goth and

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Speaker 1: now she's rocking it. She loves it. And so listeners,

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Speaker 1: you might be thinking that sounds so extra and so dramatic.

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Speaker 1: Remember where you felt, you know, the day the election

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Speaker 1: like that? To me, that sound I mean like it

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Speaker 1: might sound kind of over the top and sort of

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Speaker 1: like dramatic, But I think that makes so much sense.

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Speaker 1: Where you know you can control how you present to

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Speaker 1: the world in some ways that I think that you know,

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Speaker 1: grasping out a way to sort of make a change,

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Speaker 1: to sort of take ownership over that I'm going to

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Speaker 1: own how I present in the world in this way.

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Speaker 1: And even though it can be a really small thing

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Speaker 1: with just changing your hair color, um, it can really

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Speaker 1: kind of change your whole outlook on your situation. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and it's also so very it feels like a very

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Speaker 1: millennial thing because we were all taught that, you know,

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Speaker 1: independent streaks are cool and that it's all about you

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Speaker 1: and personalizing your life is part of I think a

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Speaker 1: very key component to Jen Why is that idea of

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Speaker 1: like identity and personalization and your uniqueness and so in

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Speaker 1: in sort of desiring to be more unique, I think

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Speaker 1: owning your own style and presentation, especially from the hair

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Speaker 1: in the hair department, can really help you take that

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Speaker 1: agency back in your life. And that certainly was true

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Speaker 1: for me when I cut off eleven inches of my

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Speaker 1: brown hair to go to transition into pixie Land, which

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Speaker 1: by the way, is great, wonderful and happy place. I

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Speaker 1: love having a pixie um. The power of pixie is

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Speaker 1: a total thing. So when I did that, it coincided

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Speaker 1: with me starting bossed up, starting my own company. What

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Speaker 1: is interesting is that it did not coincide with a

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Speaker 1: change in my relationship. So I actually fell in love

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Speaker 1: with Ma Mayan when I had long, flowing brown hair

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Speaker 1: and then cut off eleven inches, And it was the

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Speaker 1: first time in my life I was like, I'm not

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Speaker 1: going to really I'm not. First of all, I didn't

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Speaker 1: ask his permission. Can I say, I have so many

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Speaker 1: questions that will derail this conversation in many way? Maybe, Okay,

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Speaker 1: let's let's take a quick break. I think now would

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Speaker 1: be a good time for quick break because we are

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Speaker 1: going to talk about long long versus short. I think

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Speaker 1: long versus short is a big, big debate in the

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Speaker 1: modern hair politics. So we'll be right back and we're

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Speaker 1: going to dive into the Pixie power in just a

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Speaker 1: moment of first here's a word from our sponsors, and

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Speaker 1: we are back. And b has so many questions, questions

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Speaker 1: for me and I, So just just as a reminder

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Speaker 1: where we left off, we I just admitted to the

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Speaker 1: fact that I cut off eleven inches of my hair

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Speaker 1: and went pixie power, full pixie power after a year

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Speaker 1: of dating my my boo Brad, the boo um who

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Speaker 1: with whom I fell in love while rocking long, flowing,

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Speaker 1: natural brown, curly hair. So fire away, but I know

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Speaker 1: you want to have a lot of one. Did he care?

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Speaker 1: But did he? So? Did he? Just you left for

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Speaker 1: work one day you came back with a completely different look.

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Speaker 1: I informed him. He knew. I was like, so here's

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Speaker 1: what I'm gonna do. As long as Obama gets reelected.

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Speaker 1: This is where we were at, No, was it? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: So it was twenty twelve, right, So as long as

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Speaker 1: Obama gets reelected, I'm quitting my job. I'm starting a business,

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Speaker 1: and I'm cutting off my hair and I'm going to

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Speaker 1: celebrate the election that way because it was also to me,

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Speaker 1: the last political election that I was going to be

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Speaker 1: a full time political operative for so it felt like

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Speaker 1: a transitional phase career wise, and I was really determined

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Speaker 1: to be brave and be courageous and dare to try

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Speaker 1: to start something new like the company. It's almost exactly

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Speaker 1: like what you were just saying before, where it wasn't

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Speaker 1: a romantic situation, but it was like a like, I

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Speaker 1: need to make a bold change in my life and

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Speaker 1: I can control this aspect of my physical appearance, and

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Speaker 1: I'm going to do that. It was symbolic and it

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Speaker 1: was about courage. And I had always wanted to to

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Speaker 1: try on a pixie for size, but it feels really scary.

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Speaker 1: And I also thought, okay, I can donate to Locks

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Speaker 1: for Love, so that this is like, uh, there's like

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Speaker 1: more accountability when I said I'm going to do this,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to donate my my hair and I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: change my look and change my life. And so Brad

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Speaker 1: did have Brad notoriously has never really commented much on

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Speaker 1: my physical appearance. That's interesting. She has a real woke

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Speaker 1: Bay ied to throw that no idea either that shag

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Speaker 1: woke Bay who doesn't know how woke he is. Um.

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Speaker 1: But what's cool is that which was a little just

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Speaker 1: like a little uncomfortable at first, because I was like,

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Speaker 1: come on, man, tell me how how I am? What's

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Speaker 1: up with that? You know, I'd have to I have

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Speaker 1: to still ask for compliments when I'm really feeling I'm like,

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Speaker 1: don't I look super fine tonight? And He'll be like yeah, always,

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Speaker 1: and that's it, you know, that's all I hear from him.

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Speaker 1: But the fact that he didn't comment on my hair

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Speaker 1: at first meant that chopping it off to me felt

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Speaker 1: bold and independent. I wasn't relying on his approval, but

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Speaker 1: it was certainly nerve racking and scary. And then a

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Speaker 1: couple of months later, I said, you know, brown, my

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Speaker 1: natural brown hair is cool. I like it, but with

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Speaker 1: a pixie you can't see how fierce this short, choppy

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Speaker 1: cut is. Let's diet, and I haven't dyed my hair

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Speaker 1: in ten years. So if I'm going to diet, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to go all the way to the other end

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Speaker 1: of the spectrum. And I went platinum blonde, and I

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Speaker 1: showed up with a crazy ass looking mohawk, like sitting

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Speaker 1: straight up in the air, and he was like all right,

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Speaker 1: you know, like that was it, you know, he was

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Speaker 1: just like, all right, cool, you know, I could do

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Speaker 1: whatever and he'll you know, he barely bats an eye.

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Speaker 1: I love this. It's interesting, it's a little I love it.

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Speaker 1: I love him too. So I love this response. But

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Speaker 1: it was it was so my decision, my choice, my chap.

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Speaker 1: So I have another question. Do you feel like you

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Speaker 1: I don't even know how to phrase this when you

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Speaker 1: look in the mirror now with your pixie cut and

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Speaker 1: you were a platinum blue? Do you feel like you

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Speaker 1: look the way that you were meant to look like?

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Speaker 1: Are you like this is me? You know who put

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Speaker 1: it perfectly as my friend you might know, Megan Lubin.

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Speaker 1: She she was the only one of the very early

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Speaker 1: people who didn't ask me like what the hell I

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Speaker 1: was thinking and if I was going crazy and having

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Speaker 1: like a Britney spears meltdown, shaved my head moment, which

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Speaker 1: a lot of people were like concerned. People were concerned,

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Speaker 1: And Luvin came up to me and said to me,

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Speaker 1: and these words stuck with me. She says, Emily, this

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Speaker 1: is the hair that has been wanting to come out

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Speaker 1: of your head your whole life. This is you in person, you,

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Speaker 1: this is this is such a reflection of your personality

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Speaker 1: and I was like, I feel the same way, and

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Speaker 1: that's the only reason I've kept this look for so long.

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Speaker 1: I love that, so I have a like this is

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Speaker 1: the weirdest example. But I was once watching some like

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Speaker 1: v H one, like behind the Music and who is

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Speaker 1: the guy from the band Counting Crows with the dreadlocks,

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Speaker 1: which is it's I don't know his name, but it's

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Speaker 1: its own like weird thing, which we'll get into later. Yes,

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Speaker 1: but um he talked about that like he once tried

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Speaker 1: on like a dreadlock wig or something, and then he

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Speaker 1: looked at himself in the mirror and was like, oh

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Speaker 1: my god, this is what I was meant to look like.

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Speaker 1: And of course it has its own like mixed bag

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Speaker 1: of weird cultural stuff, but like, I totally identified with

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Speaker 1: that where you see yourself reflected as like how you've

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Speaker 1: always kind of felt inside and when you see that,

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Speaker 1: thinking like, this is it, this is what I've been

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Speaker 1: reaching for. It's weird too, because I like change more

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Speaker 1: than anything. I like change. So the short short hair

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Speaker 1: allows me to change it up every time I get

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Speaker 1: it cut just slightly enough to give me that vary

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Speaker 1: ability that makes me that's you know, scratches that itch.

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Speaker 1: But what I noticed is that there was a distinct

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Speaker 1: shift in the male gaze in the in the feedback

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Speaker 1: I was getting from men. And what we've seen in

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Speaker 1: the articles written about this is that there's this great

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Speaker 1: piece in Odyssey the Odyssey online where it's titled what

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Speaker 1: my haircut taught Me about Feminism? And this woman who

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Speaker 1: chopped her hair off, long, long, beautiful red hair, she

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Speaker 1: chopped it off into a short pixie and there were

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Speaker 1: men in her life who literally said, why did you

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Speaker 1: do that? You know? And there were women in her

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Speaker 1: life who said, you know that guys aren't going to

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Speaker 1: hit on you as much anymore. So these women had

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Speaker 1: internalized the sort of male gaze and were warning her.

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Speaker 1: They thought they were doing her favor, they were warning

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Speaker 1: her that she might not attract as many men. And

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Speaker 1: so this sort of like, first of all, this is

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Speaker 1: this is there's also some heteronormative weirdness here, because hey,

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Speaker 1: people thought pixie equals lesbian, like short hair equals gay,

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Speaker 1: which is not not fair? Hello, like what really? And

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Speaker 1: then two the guys that hit on me. I call

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Speaker 1: my pixie haircut the douchebag screen because when I cut

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Speaker 1: my hair short, there was a very significant drop in

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Speaker 1: men who would hit on me, and yet the quality

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Speaker 1: of the men who do hit on me has skyrocketed.

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Speaker 1: Because I think it's like, so I have so much

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Speaker 1: to say about That's one. I think it's really interesting

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Speaker 1: that like the way that women go through the world,

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Speaker 1: like with the world, thinking that they kind of own

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Speaker 1: or have some sort of ownership over her body. And

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Speaker 1: I think that like we see that in all kinds

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Speaker 1: of ways. We see that through like legislation around women's issues,

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Speaker 1: but we see it in these smaller ways to like

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Speaker 1: with hair that like if you cut your hair, that

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Speaker 1: men in your life would be like, oh, how could

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Speaker 1: you do that. I have a friend who got a

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Speaker 1: breast production and that men told her the same thing,

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Speaker 1: and she's like, dude, a way that I exist in

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Speaker 1: the world is not does not exist to you know,

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Speaker 1: please you? And I also, I mean, I love that

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Speaker 1: point about like the douchebag screen, right, I think the

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Speaker 1: kind of guy who would hit on a woman with

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Speaker 1: really short hair in public, maybe it's the kind of

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Speaker 1: guy who if we're gonna go with this idea that

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Speaker 1: cutting your hair short could mean you know that you're

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Speaker 1: taking ownership over your life or making some change the

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Speaker 1: kind of guy who like it's like, oh, that's a

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Speaker 1: kind of lady I want, right, Like that's interesting though

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00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:33,359
Speaker 1: it is, and there was a distinct change in the

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Speaker 1: racial makeup. So I don't know, like there is not

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Speaker 1: enough research on next. But here's my very limited anecdotal evidence.

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Speaker 1: And I do I did at the time. I was,

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Speaker 1: you know, I do live in d C when I

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Speaker 1: made all these hair changes, and d C is a

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Speaker 1: very I think, multicultural city. You don't know, for a

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Speaker 1: very long time, d C was called chocolate cities. Yes,

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Speaker 1: true that except northwest d C doesn't always look like

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Speaker 1: Latte c right, a little moca or something. So first

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Speaker 1: and foremost white boys did not hit on me like

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Speaker 1: they used to long hair brunette. All the white boys

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Speaker 1: came to the yard, right, But this short Picksie Malek

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00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:19,359
Speaker 1: shake no no, no, no no, did not bring all

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Speaker 1: the boys to the yard for stall. It definitely changed

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Speaker 1: um to a more courageous man. And also the person

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Speaker 1: who's more likely to hit him me or give me compliments,

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Speaker 1: male or female, tends to be black. And we're talking

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Speaker 1: about a short pixie haircut with an undercut, to which

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Speaker 1: I think the undercut thing makes it a yeah. Maybe

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00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:43,399
Speaker 1: it's just like think about it. The black beauty and

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Speaker 1: black women have been rocking short hair allah re reef

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Speaker 1: for a lot longer. Yeah, short hair. This is like

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Speaker 1: when I was younger, there was this very very cool

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Speaker 1: edgy thing or like if you were a black woman

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Speaker 1: with very short hair, it was like the coolest. And

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Speaker 1: there was a R and B music and Charlie Baltimore

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Speaker 1: who was amazing. Um do you eve like sheet that

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00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:13,080
Speaker 1: was like the ja early Tony Brack. That was like

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Speaker 1: a thing where like if you were a black woman

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Speaker 1: like celebrity and you had super short hair, the thing

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Speaker 1: that like in like you were seen as like the hip,

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Speaker 1: edgy like rebel, you know, and that was like like

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Speaker 1: I remember my mom not letting me I mean I

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Speaker 1: want I don't remember what the movie was, but not

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Speaker 1: letting me go see a movie that had Jada Pinkin

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Speaker 1: in it because she was like, all you're gonna do

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Speaker 1: is like I want to chop your hair off, And

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Speaker 1: that was a no no in my house, right, Like, Um,

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Speaker 1: that's interesting, I want to ask you more about that,

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Speaker 1: So let's let's go there. Why oh so, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I it's interesting so as you'll know, maybe you don't know,

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Speaker 1: in Black communities, hair is a thing, right, Like when

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Speaker 1: I grew up, like it was like I grew up

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Speaker 1: having sort of like very very long hair my whole life.

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Speaker 1: I kind of wore my hair like the late Aliyah

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00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:09,359
Speaker 1: Rest in Peace, very long side part and in my house,

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Speaker 1: like you just weren't allowed to cut your hair, like

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00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:14,520
Speaker 1: it was, like it's such a big thing in Black communities.

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00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:16,679
Speaker 1: Like you know, for if a black woman cuts her

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Speaker 1: hair vay short, which is like when you go natural,

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00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:20,399
Speaker 1: a lot of times you have to. They call that

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00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:25,280
Speaker 1: big chopping, but um, it's a it's a really heavy thing.

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Speaker 1: And so when I was growing up, like I remember

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Speaker 1: when I went to college, I cut my hair into

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Speaker 1: a bob and my mom was furious, furious, and she

395
00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:34,920
Speaker 1: felt so she took get it such a personal upfront,

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00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:38,000
Speaker 1: right that, like you know, and she always likes to say,

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Speaker 1: I don't even think this is really in the Bible,

398
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Speaker 1: but she always says this, like your hair is your

399
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Speaker 1: crown and glory. I think that's that might be like

400
00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:47,840
Speaker 1: a made up Bible boat like, well, we'll look into this,

401
00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:50,200
Speaker 1: but I don't think it's really in there, but it's

402
00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:53,359
Speaker 1: this idea that like, if God has blessed you with

403
00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:55,439
Speaker 1: like long hair, cutting it off as I got a

404
00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:58,520
Speaker 1: front to him. And I grew up with that my

405
00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:02,080
Speaker 1: whole life, and so I subsequently grew up like kind

406
00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:05,720
Speaker 1: of fantasizing about being one of these like rebel, badass

407
00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:10,240
Speaker 1: black women like Allah Allah, Charlie Baltimore, you know, all

408
00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:12,480
Speaker 1: these women. And if you go back and watch, like

409
00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:15,320
Speaker 1: these were the women who were like writing motorcycles, they

410
00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:18,920
Speaker 1: were wearing like, you know, leather body suits and stuff

411
00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:21,840
Speaker 1: like they were like really fierce um and then you know,

412
00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:24,359
Speaker 1: it's it's just a whole thing. And so I grew

413
00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:28,399
Speaker 1: up with very complicated um issues around my hair as

414
00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:31,080
Speaker 1: a black woman, and it's just interesting to see how

415
00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:34,679
Speaker 1: those play out in both feminism with rays with culture.

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00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:36,800
Speaker 1: It's just it's it's just a thing, Like it's such

417
00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:41,720
Speaker 1: a big, you know, heavy, thorny thing, and for all women,

418
00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:44,480
Speaker 1: I think so too. And we're going to dive into

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Speaker 1: natural versus treated hair and black women's hair in a second,

420
00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:52,639
Speaker 1: because I think that is such a huge part of

421
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Speaker 1: the modern hair conundrums and the politics of hair right now,

422
00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:59,080
Speaker 1: but I want to I wanna sort of bring us

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00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:02,159
Speaker 1: back to what you're saying around this pressure that women

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00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:07,280
Speaker 1: feel to please others with our whether it's mom or

425
00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:11,840
Speaker 1: the male gaze, or misogyny at large right right, or

426
00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:15,960
Speaker 1: your boss. Because there is a clear message that I

427
00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:19,400
Speaker 1: think uh women have received, which is that big hair,

428
00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:23,280
Speaker 1: curly hair, natural hair is not always deemed appropriate. So

429
00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:27,760
Speaker 1: there's a quote here from the Odyssey Online piece which says,

430
00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:30,640
Speaker 1: which goes back to that woman who's experience with chopping

431
00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:33,199
Speaker 1: her hair really short, I think really resonates with me.

432
00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:36,800
Speaker 1: Here she goes quote, they felt entitled to request that

433
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:40,520
Speaker 1: I change my image to visually please them. She's talking

434
00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:43,879
Speaker 1: about the men who gave her negative feedback. It was

435
00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:47,160
Speaker 1: not my personal preference or comfort that mattered to them,

436
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:51,359
Speaker 1: but rather my ability to mindlessly adapt to their standards.

437
00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:54,880
Speaker 1: And there are so many standards that we now are

438
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:57,680
Speaker 1: dealing with. Whether it's like, here's what it means to

439
00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:01,159
Speaker 1: be awoke feminist, black awoke black feminist hears your hair

440
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:03,400
Speaker 1: should look like or from your mom, or from men

441
00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:06,440
Speaker 1: in your life, for women in your life. So let's

442
00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:12,639
Speaker 1: dive into this component around natural hair. So I should

443
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:15,800
Speaker 1: say I have natural hair. Um, I wear it right now.

444
00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:18,199
Speaker 1: I mean I change it often, but I wear it

445
00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:21,560
Speaker 1: in twists just for you know, ease and mobility because

446
00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:24,600
Speaker 1: I'm pretty busy these days. Um. I always like to

447
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,679
Speaker 1: tell people like people always ask why did you go natural?

448
00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:31,240
Speaker 1: And I think with black women it's this so our

449
00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:33,679
Speaker 1: hair is so politicized, like hair is political, but for

450
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:38,040
Speaker 1: black wo minutes ultra super duper political. And I think

451
00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:41,360
Speaker 1: that for me, you know a lot of people are like,

452
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:44,439
Speaker 1: you know, were you going through like a political or

453
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:48,480
Speaker 1: like social awakening, and so I kind of like, I

454
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:50,960
Speaker 1: kind of like lie about this. Right, So someone wants

455
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:53,400
Speaker 1: to be like, why did you go natural? I'll be like, oh,

456
00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:56,199
Speaker 1: you know, I just felt like I needed to, you know,

457
00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:59,320
Speaker 1: throw off the chains of the white beauty standards. That's

458
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,959
Speaker 1: a lie. The real story is that I was broke, right, Like,

459
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:07,320
Speaker 1: having relaxed hair is expensive. It's very expensive. It's time consuming,

460
00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:10,679
Speaker 1: it's expensive. I didn't have money im as a broke student,

461
00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:12,600
Speaker 1: I didn't have money to go get you know, a

462
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:14,840
Speaker 1: relaxer every couple of weeks. You know, it's like a

463
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:18,720
Speaker 1: hundred dollars maybe more. And so I basically was like

464
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:21,639
Speaker 1: I need to make a financial choice. So you know,

465
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,480
Speaker 1: it's seen as so political, and it is political and

466
00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,080
Speaker 1: black communities I think, but like for me, it was

467
00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:29,760
Speaker 1: just a complete like it was not at all a

468
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:32,199
Speaker 1: political or social thing. It was just a choice that

469
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:34,359
Speaker 1: I made. When when did you make that choice? I

470
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:37,800
Speaker 1: made this choice in it was right after college, so

471
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:40,760
Speaker 1: I was starting graduate school. That was the brokest I've

472
00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:43,880
Speaker 1: ever been into my life. Graduate school, Like if you've

473
00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:46,000
Speaker 1: ever been a graduate student, you know what's up. And

474
00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:49,320
Speaker 1: also was very busy, right like black salons or sort

475
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:51,800
Speaker 1: of notorious for making you wait all day for like

476
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:54,119
Speaker 1: spending your whole saturday in a salon. And it was

477
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:56,199
Speaker 1: just one of those things where I was like, I

478
00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:58,640
Speaker 1: had so little free time that like, do I want

479
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,719
Speaker 1: to spend my entire saturday on my hair? Absolutely not.

480
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:04,639
Speaker 1: That's what Phoebe Robinson writes about in her great book

481
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:08,320
Speaker 1: You Can't Touch My Hair. She says, I learned from

482
00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:11,919
Speaker 1: my predominantly white classmates at the predominantly white school I

483
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:14,719
Speaker 1: went to for I think it was high school. She

484
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:17,439
Speaker 1: says that, you know, I learned that weekends were a

485
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:19,720
Speaker 1: thing that white people had that I didn't have, Like

486
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:23,439
Speaker 1: weekends were wrapped up in white privilege because at least

487
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,359
Speaker 1: once a month, right, she spent her entire Saturday in

488
00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:30,919
Speaker 1: the line. Yeah, that that resonates so much with my experience,

489
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:33,640
Speaker 1: Like when I was growing up, Saturday's where my mom

490
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,479
Speaker 1: would get up very early, like seven am, like when

491
00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:39,200
Speaker 1: you're a kid, that's very early. We would drive down

492
00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:41,879
Speaker 1: with like me and my mom, my cousins. Um. Sometimes

493
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:43,760
Speaker 1: like some of her friends would go to the same

494
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:46,480
Speaker 1: salon called God what was the name of that salon.

495
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:48,640
Speaker 1: I wish I could remember shout out to that salon.

496
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:51,480
Speaker 1: I'm sure it's closed now, um, But yeah, we would

497
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:53,800
Speaker 1: all drive down and we'd be there all day. And

498
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 1: so part of me is like once a week, once

499
00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:58,560
Speaker 1: a week, once a week. So we would we would

500
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,200
Speaker 1: we would close salon with them, Like I remember, we'd

501
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:02,919
Speaker 1: be leaving and they would be like a locking up

502
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:05,720
Speaker 1: and doesn't mean all. And you know what's interesting is

503
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:07,879
Speaker 1: that like it was you know, as a kid, I

504
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:10,560
Speaker 1: would have much rather have been like swimming or biking

505
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:14,080
Speaker 1: or whatever. But I do think that like those experiences,

506
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:16,720
Speaker 1: I mean, it taught me the value of a community

507
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:18,600
Speaker 1: of women, and so like I don't want to be like,

508
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:21,960
Speaker 1: oh my god, it was the worst thing ever, But like, yeah,

509
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:24,479
Speaker 1: it would have been nice to have a choice, to

510
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:26,199
Speaker 1: have a choice, and I never felt like I had

511
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:29,400
Speaker 1: a choice. I felt like like clockworks, Saturdays were getting

512
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:31,520
Speaker 1: your hair done, Sundays were for church, So I really

513
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:33,800
Speaker 1: didn't get weekends as a kid. And the other thing

514
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 1: that alarmed me when I was reading Phoebe's book that

515
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:41,680
Speaker 1: she sort of glossed over pretty quickly was that sweating

516
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:44,280
Speaker 1: was not encouraged. Because when you get your hair done

517
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 1: once a week, which costs a lot of money and

518
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 1: maybe it's treated to be straight, you sweat, you mess

519
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:53,359
Speaker 1: it up. So what does that mean about wedding is

520
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,280
Speaker 1: running around and being a kid? You can't, you don't,

521
00:27:56,280 --> 00:28:00,240
Speaker 1: you don't. That becomes a sort of fraud thing. What's

522
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:03,360
Speaker 1: so interesting about this is that they've actually done studies

523
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 1: and for black women that say that that can be

524
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:09,640
Speaker 1: connected to how often you work out and your fitness

525
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:11,960
Speaker 1: right that like, if you are concerned about your hair

526
00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:15,600
Speaker 1: getting messed up, which black you have to be like,

527
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 1: this is it's it's not that's not an unreasonable thing

528
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:20,040
Speaker 1: to be concerned about, but if you that may make

529
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,320
Speaker 1: you less likely to work out, to exercise, and that

530
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 1: like you know, your physical help can suffer because of

531
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 1: this pressure that you feel um about your standard beauty standards.

532
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 1: And it's so fraught because like, as black women, we

533
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:36,159
Speaker 1: are expected to adhere to these to these kind of

534
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 1: unrealistic beauty standards. So you really can't win. Yeah, it

535
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:41,440
Speaker 1: sounds like a you know, damned if you did, damned

536
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:44,240
Speaker 1: if you don't situation. But and it also we don't

537
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 1: want to say that if you do chemically treat your hair,

538
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 1: or if you do spend every Saturday in the beauty parlor,

539
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 1: that there's something wrong with you that makes you a

540
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 1: bad feminist. Right. There are totally legit reasons, and there's

541
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,760
Speaker 1: also just the arbitrary like that's what you love reason,

542
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 1: which is valid valid. Biggest pet peeve is this idea

543
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,719
Speaker 1: that if a black woman has a we've has you know,

544
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:10,120
Speaker 1: straightened hair, because I had straightened hair for most of

545
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 1: my life, Like me, going natural has been a recent thing.

546
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 1: You know that you're not woke, that you're not with it,

547
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:17,040
Speaker 1: that you're not political. Right. I see a lot of

548
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 1: like really awful memes on social media that are like, oh,

549
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 1: black women didn't get weaves, then oppression would stop. And

550
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:27,680
Speaker 1: it's like, no, I don't think one woman her choice

551
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:29,600
Speaker 1: to like have a certain hairstyle. It's like, what's the

552
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:33,400
Speaker 1: dueling worldwide global oppression? I think it might be other things, sure,

553
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:36,040
Speaker 1: And it's also not on black women to solve the

554
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 1: problem with how other people perceive let us, let us

555
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:44,720
Speaker 1: wear our hair. Gott so I I love what Phoebe

556
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:46,959
Speaker 1: Robinson has to say about this. You should definitely pick

557
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:49,680
Speaker 1: up her book if you haven't already. She is a

558
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:52,920
Speaker 1: notorious hair experiment er. She's always changing up her look.

559
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:56,880
Speaker 1: She's she's done gone natural, She's had dreads, she's had

560
00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:59,440
Speaker 1: straightened hair. She says, she just likes it right. There's

561
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 1: an element of whatever you want your personal style to

562
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 1: be is fine. And one of the chapters of her

563
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 1: books she walks through sort of the modern history of

564
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 1: black hair in the public eye in pop culture and

565
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 1: what I what I love about your story and you

566
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 1: sharing the secret of how you might sometimes lie a

567
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:20,080
Speaker 1: little bit about why you went natural? Is what she

568
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 1: has to say about Janet Jackson's poetic justice Braids and

569
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 1: Lenny Kravitz, is are you going to go My way? Dreads?

570
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:32,560
Speaker 1: A Lah. She says, I'm grouping Janet's braids and Lenny's

571
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:35,200
Speaker 1: dreads together because they both fall under the quote stay

572
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:39,480
Speaker 1: woke category. For the uninitiated, stay woke is when a

573
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,960
Speaker 1: black person is informed of the world's injustices and how

574
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 1: those injustices affect the black community, and then they let

575
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:51,320
Speaker 1: everybody know that they are informed. Sometimes I'm woken. Staying

576
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:53,680
Speaker 1: woke memo is as simple as a person changing their

577
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:57,160
Speaker 1: name to something more afrocentric or wearing bow ties in

578
00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:01,280
Speaker 1: kent a cloth. Other times you're clued into their wokeness

579
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 1: by the frequency with which they like candles and incense

580
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 1: all over their crib, like Angela Bassett did in the

581
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 1: Buddhist praying scene. And what's love got to do with it?

582
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:11,000
Speaker 1: I have so much to say about that. So, first

583
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 1: of all, Phoebe is like basically calling me out here.

584
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:16,080
Speaker 1: I was that I was that kind of person for

585
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:18,640
Speaker 1: a while, and so now y'all know that I would

586
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:21,680
Speaker 1: have went natural, not out of wokeness. But then when

587
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 1: I did go natural, I did go through a weird

588
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 1: phase where I felt like I had to be like

589
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:31,200
Speaker 1: more more informed. So I definitely like I bought a

590
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:33,719
Speaker 1: lot of like this is embarrassing. I bought a lot

591
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 1: of like a really long Maxi skirts because I thought

592
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 1: that's what like woke women wore. I definitely like lit

593
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:42,960
Speaker 1: incense and I definitely, I mean, I went through that phase.

594
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,080
Speaker 1: And it's funny. I mean, like I do think that

595
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 1: with that hair stuff, it's like what Spider Man says,

596
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:53,000
Speaker 1: with respon with great power, it comes great responsibility with Yeah,

597
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 1: I mean, and I felt that way. I think that

598
00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 1: I didn't think a lot of I think that Phoebe

599
00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:59,080
Speaker 1: nails it right that like you do feel this like

600
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 1: pressure to look informed with it woke all of that.

601
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 1: When you have a certain hairstyle as a black woman,

602
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 1: you feel like people treated you differently. When I had

603
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 1: my like long straight Aliah hair. Um, it's funny. I mean,

604
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:16,320
Speaker 1: like I definitely got hit on more by men when

605
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:18,959
Speaker 1: I had long straight hair, like and even when I

606
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 1: straighten it now because even as even though I'm naturally

607
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 1: I straighten it from time to time and like definitely

608
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 1: get more attention from from man just in general. But

609
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 1: when my hair is natural, you know, men would come

610
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 1: up to me on the street and say things to

611
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 1: me like hello Goddess, Like hello, hello, queen, like things

612
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:37,080
Speaker 1: like that, and so it was it was a guy

613
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 1: was a different person and so um. I always like

614
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 1: to joke with my partner that dating a black woman

615
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 1: with natural hair is like it's like dating eight women, right,

616
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:47,959
Speaker 1: because it's like one day I'll have twists, one day

617
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:49,880
Speaker 1: I'll have braids, one day it'll be straight, one day

618
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:51,720
Speaker 1: it'll be a fro. Like who are you gonna get

619
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 1: this morning? You know, you never know, right, And I

620
00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:59,560
Speaker 1: think that difference in treatment is very interesting, especially as

621
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:02,960
Speaker 1: a pertain to Black women at work. And I think

622
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:06,800
Speaker 1: it's really interesting how the United States military feels about

623
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:10,040
Speaker 1: black women's hair totally, so like what we found, and

624
00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:12,520
Speaker 1: this is something that I think is so absurd, but

625
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:14,320
Speaker 1: it should give you a sense of the idea of

626
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 1: like how police to black women's hair actually is. So

627
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 1: if you're listening to this and you're thinking this sounds

628
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:22,720
Speaker 1: like a bunch of fuss about nothing, this is a

629
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 1: real thing for black women. And so black women in

630
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 1: the military, they had this rule that said that black

631
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:32,480
Speaker 1: women could not wear braids, twists, any kind of hairstyle

632
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:34,600
Speaker 1: like that. And why that's such a problem is that

633
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:37,440
Speaker 1: basically the one of the only styles has accepted in

634
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:39,600
Speaker 1: the military for women is to have your hair in

635
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 1: a low bun. But that that rule assumes that all

636
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:46,080
Speaker 1: hair grows the same, and it doesn't write like when

637
00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:48,680
Speaker 1: my hair was natural and short, there's no way I

638
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 1: could have gotten it into a bond like this doesn't work.

639
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:52,719
Speaker 1: And so they don't let you wear you're like they

640
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 1: didn't let you wear your like natural pooh for your

641
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 1: you know, a frow, so that your hair just like

642
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:00,480
Speaker 1: growing out of your head the way that it does naturally.

643
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:03,680
Speaker 1: Is it's not acceptable enough. Isn't good enough for the military,

644
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:05,840
Speaker 1: but not that they're going to subsidize like the treating

645
00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:09,000
Speaker 1: of exactly exactly. And so what I also found really

646
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:11,839
Speaker 1: problematic about that rule is that it was clearly made

647
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:15,640
Speaker 1: up by someone who doesn't understand black hair. Because if

648
00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:17,759
Speaker 1: you're a little black girl, you know that when you're

649
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:19,520
Speaker 1: going you're going to camp for the summer, you get

650
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:22,920
Speaker 1: twists or braids, right like that is the utilitarian, Like

651
00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:24,879
Speaker 1: you're gonna be swimming, you're gonna be climbing, you're gonna

652
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:27,239
Speaker 1: be sweating, Like I wear my hair and twists now

653
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 1: because I don't have time to like really be in

654
00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:32,440
Speaker 1: the mirror every day doing a style, and so basically

655
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:35,800
Speaker 1: they're telling black women that the style that is universally

656
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:38,279
Speaker 1: understood to be, you know, the style of people who

657
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:41,960
Speaker 1: are just like its, especially when you're in the military

658
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,680
Speaker 1: and working out exactly, they're telling you that that style

659
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:48,440
Speaker 1: isn't okay. So this rule was eventually resended after lots

660
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 1: and lots of people making noise about it. Rightly, but

661
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:53,120
Speaker 1: it should really give you a sense of how police

662
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:55,400
Speaker 1: black women's hair has been for so long. And I

663
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:58,160
Speaker 1: think that you know that there have been cases a

664
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:01,200
Speaker 1: federal court once ruled that companies could fire people for

665
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:05,480
Speaker 1: having dreadlocks, and can you can you imagine? Can you

666
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:07,920
Speaker 1: imagine what kind of people? And again, I mean, it

667
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:11,200
Speaker 1: just should give you a sense of how how fraught

668
00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:13,400
Speaker 1: and how sort of wrapped up in in raise some

669
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:15,840
Speaker 1: cultural identity that that hair is for black women. And

670
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 1: they said, well, it's just we're just requiring our employees

671
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:22,480
Speaker 1: to protect a quote professional and business like image end quote.

672
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:26,080
Speaker 1: And therefore they're saying this kind of style that happens

673
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:30,160
Speaker 1: to be rocked by more black people than white is unacceptable, right,

674
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:32,760
Speaker 1: And it's I think like there are so many cases

675
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:36,120
Speaker 1: and examples. Um, there's a prestigious school in South Africa

676
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:38,800
Speaker 1: that was used to be whites only but is now um,

677
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:42,600
Speaker 1: you know not where they wouldn't let like school girls

678
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:45,279
Speaker 1: where their raids and froze and natural styles. And the

679
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 1: girls actually protested. They were like, this is racist and

680
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 1: we should be allowed to wear our hair the way

681
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 1: that we want and you can't dictate you know what

682
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:56,640
Speaker 1: we do with our own bodies and our own hair. Right. Well,

683
00:35:56,680 --> 00:36:01,200
Speaker 1: it's it's absolutely uh a uni versaal talking point. It

684
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:05,800
Speaker 1: feels like today with just recently Bill O'Riley making quite

685
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:11,480
Speaker 1: a fuss over the incredible Maxine Waters, Can you tell

686
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 1: us about that situation and catch us up on that front.

687
00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:17,279
Speaker 1: Oh yes, So if you don't know Maxine Waters, she's

688
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:20,440
Speaker 1: lovingly known as Auntie Maxine by me and lots of

689
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:23,080
Speaker 1: people who love her. Um. She is just this fierce

690
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:26,759
Speaker 1: black congresswoman from California, and she's really been doing a

691
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:30,560
Speaker 1: lot of work calling out a lot of unpleasant stuff

692
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:33,279
Speaker 1: going on in our political system right now. And so

693
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:36,840
Speaker 1: she's made herself a target because she's been so fierce

694
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 1: and visible at the at the forefront of critiquing the

695
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:43,640
Speaker 1: news she is leading this movement, right like, she like,

696
00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:48,719
Speaker 1: the resistance will be led by your black auntie who

697
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:50,920
Speaker 1: is not having any of it. And so she was on,

698
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:53,200
Speaker 1: you know, on the floor sort of giving a giving

699
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 1: a speech about the pressing matters of our our time.

700
00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,279
Speaker 1: And Bill O'Riley, who, by the way, who is he

701
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:02,319
Speaker 1: to criticize anyone's hair, Um, made fun of her wig.

702
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:04,560
Speaker 1: She said, He said it was a James Brown wig

703
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:06,799
Speaker 1: because he couldn't hear what she was saying because he

704
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:10,400
Speaker 1: was so distracted by her. James Brown, what a dehumanizing

705
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:12,239
Speaker 1: thing to say that I'm not listening to the words

706
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:15,360
Speaker 1: that you're saying. I can't I can't even hear what

707
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:19,640
Speaker 1: you're saying. If I find your appearance to be not acceptable, Um,

708
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 1: And I thought that for and so obviously I think

709
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:26,759
Speaker 1: making that kind of dig at anybody is unacceptable. Um.

710
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:30,040
Speaker 1: But I also think that specifically because black women are

711
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:32,239
Speaker 1: It's like I said earlier, like we can't win, like

712
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:34,960
Speaker 1: we are expected to adhere to these sort of like

713
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:39,680
Speaker 1: very difficult sometimes difficult to adhere to beauty standards. And

714
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:42,680
Speaker 1: so you know, I wear braids as a way to

715
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 1: sort of like get around that. If you like, I

716
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 1: don't know if Maxine Waters wears a wig or not,

717
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:49,480
Speaker 1: but like, if she did wear a wig, like that

718
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:52,479
Speaker 1: would be a totally reasonable way for a black woman

719
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:55,240
Speaker 1: to try to adhere to these like very difficult standards

720
00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:57,400
Speaker 1: that we've been up against. And I'm like, it's like,

721
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:00,120
Speaker 1: you can't win. Like if she if she wore her

722
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:02,719
Speaker 1: natural hair, he probably has something to say if she

723
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:05,880
Speaker 1: wears a wig to look you know, quote unquote more professional,

724
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:10,040
Speaker 1: he has something to say. Like, It's like, we field, right,

725
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:14,440
Speaker 1: and and we I think there's a component to this

726
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:19,279
Speaker 1: mind field that starts to get even more confusing when

727
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:23,239
Speaker 1: we start to look at people of different races adopting

728
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:29,640
Speaker 1: traditionally black or you know, other cultures traditions in their

729
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:34,600
Speaker 1: own hair choices. Definitely, and I know that we're trying

730
00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:38,399
Speaker 1: to be about more choices, right, we want again you're

731
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:41,440
Speaker 1: saying that the constrained choices that black women face are unfair,

732
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 1: and they are because God forbid they should wear their

733
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:48,120
Speaker 1: natural you know, afro hair or natural hair of any

734
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:51,040
Speaker 1: kind in any form. You know, people have something to

735
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:54,200
Speaker 1: say about that or any other style that's more quote

736
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:59,440
Speaker 1: unquote acceptable or professional. And the same thing goes I

737
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 1: think in when we see the rise of the Rachel

738
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:07,680
Speaker 1: Dolosols of the world, if I'm saying that correctly, which

739
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:09,600
Speaker 1: is where I want to cut. I want to go

740
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:16,200
Speaker 1: there next on talking through what happens when inspiration turns

741
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:22,400
Speaker 1: into cultural appropriation. So hang on, we are gonna we

742
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 1: have a lot more to say about that and about

743
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:27,799
Speaker 1: the political choices that women face when just choosing how

744
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 1: to present their hair to the world when we come

745
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:41,000
Speaker 1: back from this quick break and we are back and

746
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:45,279
Speaker 1: we have the oh so simple task ahead of us

747
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:50,240
Speaker 1: of explaining cultural appropriation in hair and beauty for today's

748
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:53,680
Speaker 1: modern woman. No big deal, right, we got this. Nothing

749
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 1: nothing major here, nothing controversial here. So I think this

750
00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:04,799
Speaker 1: really became a major public issue, or at least I

751
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:08,480
Speaker 1: became even more aware of the challenges and issues around

752
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:12,000
Speaker 1: cultural appropriation with Rachel dolis All. So, in case you

753
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:14,680
Speaker 1: missed the whole Rachel Dolzell thing, I don't know how

754
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:17,280
Speaker 1: you could, because it was everywhere. This is a story

755
00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:20,120
Speaker 1: that I read, every article, every comment. I was on

756
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:24,520
Speaker 1: this story intensely so. Rachel Dolzel was the head of

757
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:27,640
Speaker 1: the Spokane chapter of the a c P. This is

758
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:33,000
Speaker 1: back in Um, she basically was outed as a white

759
00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:37,480
Speaker 1: woman who was pretending to be able black woman. And so,

760
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:40,760
Speaker 1: you know, there's this whole thing with passing where you are,

761
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:42,759
Speaker 1: you know, a black person who was light enough to

762
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:44,600
Speaker 1: look white, and so you've been passing as white. She

763
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:47,040
Speaker 1: was sort of doing this in reverse, and so she

764
00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:50,319
Speaker 1: had you know, she attended Howard University and DC she

765
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:53,440
Speaker 1: had been presenting as a black woman historically black university,

766
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:56,440
Speaker 1: but white and black people I talked. I talked of

767
00:40:56,520 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 1: Howard for a few years, and I can confirm that

768
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:01,120
Speaker 1: there are white people, are their white teachers. You would

769
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:03,239
Speaker 1: not have to lie about your race to like lie

770
00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:05,440
Speaker 1: her way into Howard. You could definitely go with a

771
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:09,520
Speaker 1: white person. Um. So, yeah, she had been lying about

772
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:12,319
Speaker 1: her race and that when called out, she admitted to

773
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:18,239
Speaker 1: being white, but biologically white, that's what you want to

774
00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:23,520
Speaker 1: She considered herself to be quote transracial. So she was

775
00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:27,080
Speaker 1: saying that she feels inside like she's a black woman,

776
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:29,880
Speaker 1: and though despite the fact that she's not, I was

777
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 1: not born a black woman, she believes that she's culturally black,

778
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:37,400
Speaker 1: which does a huge disservice to the transgender can because

779
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:44,319
Speaker 1: this is not all comparable. It also, you know, she

780
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:46,640
Speaker 1: we also have to acknowledge he that she permed her

781
00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:51,440
Speaker 1: hair tight curls. So another kind of fun wrinkle about

782
00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:54,719
Speaker 1: Rachel is that she actually worked on the side as

783
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:56,920
Speaker 1: someone who like braided hair out of her apartment. I know,

784
00:41:57,040 --> 00:41:59,520
Speaker 1: I don't know if you know this, which that is

785
00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:05,040
Speaker 1: like basically Rachel was like mimicking a very particular kind

786
00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:06,560
Speaker 1: of Black woman, like the kind of Black woman who

787
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:08,799
Speaker 1: doesn't who like braithes hair out of her apartment as

788
00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:11,600
Speaker 1: a side hustle. It's a very particular kind of Black woman.

789
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:15,320
Speaker 1: But she's imitating a very like specific kind of black identity,

790
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:19,160
Speaker 1: which I find very interesting. Which is also sort of

791
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:25,520
Speaker 1: linked to the very roots of um hairstyling in Africa.

792
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:28,640
Speaker 1: You know, there was usually and this is way back

793
00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:32,120
Speaker 1: in the days. Something I learned from Sminty the on

794
00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:37,000
Speaker 1: their Hair Story podcast, there was like one hairstylist per

795
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:40,719
Speaker 1: African village and this person was of high renowned and

796
00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:44,560
Speaker 1: very respected in the community. And that was a trade

797
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:47,120
Speaker 1: that was passed down through generations. And I think that's

798
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:50,200
Speaker 1: something still because like everyone knows, like, like you have

799
00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:52,279
Speaker 1: a hair stylace that you love, you probably have been

800
00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:55,359
Speaker 1: going to for years, like you know the woman who

801
00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:57,919
Speaker 1: does who braiths my hair like she's like a second mom, right,

802
00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:02,680
Speaker 1: So for Rachel Dolls all too sort of pose as

803
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:05,840
Speaker 1: a black person in that way raised all the cultural

804
00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:09,080
Speaker 1: appropriation belves and all the red flags and really ignited

805
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:12,680
Speaker 1: a conversation that needed to be ignited that um and

806
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:16,799
Speaker 1: brought attention to how troubling it can be when you know,

807
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:20,360
Speaker 1: the Kardashians rock corn rows, or when when Native American

808
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:25,319
Speaker 1: head dresses, which are a spiritual and very revered and

809
00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:30,080
Speaker 1: sacred component of a Native American tribe, is trotted down

810
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:33,000
Speaker 1: a high fashion runway or like head dress or like

811
00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:39,439
Speaker 1: at Coachella on someone's shoulders. Nothing to like SCLX right, right,

812
00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:43,919
Speaker 1: So that I mean that just makes I think, um,

813
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:49,759
Speaker 1: specifically minority Americans, right who who frankly have said, and

814
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:52,719
Speaker 1: I've read this, you haven't earned the right to rock

815
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:55,440
Speaker 1: that style because this is about our culture that has

816
00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:58,959
Speaker 1: been preserved in the face of persecution. And it makes

817
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:02,360
Speaker 1: me really as a as a white Ish, a mostly white,

818
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:05,920
Speaker 1: a person who presents white racially, even though I do

819
00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:09,600
Speaker 1: have some South American roots in me, as a white

820
00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:15,880
Speaker 1: person who does admire traditionally black style and in that

821
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:19,480
Speaker 1: style of the hip hop movement um and respects that

822
00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:22,680
Speaker 1: and understands the origins of that. It does. I do

823
00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:26,920
Speaker 1: find this troubling in some ways. I'm so afraid of

824
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:30,840
Speaker 1: being the woman to be called out for rocking like

825
00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:32,680
Speaker 1: bamboo hoop heer. And just by the way, I don't

826
00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:37,440
Speaker 1: own any I own. I want to, but I really

827
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:41,040
Speaker 1: feel like I can't do that. You know, Like, where

828
00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:43,400
Speaker 1: is that line? So let me take you back to

829
00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:48,000
Speaker 1: the origins of Emily Aris love of of black style. Okay,

830
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:52,520
Speaker 1: that's what this is. I was twelve years old, uh

831
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:55,560
Speaker 1: and my parents my mom is Catholic, my dad is Jewish,

832
00:44:55,719 --> 00:44:58,440
Speaker 1: asked me what I wanted for Hanukah. And at the

833
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:01,000
Speaker 1: time I was a big fan of Brandy Um and

834
00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:04,480
Speaker 1: I admired her braids so much this you know, those

835
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:06,759
Speaker 1: like really thin braids. I would stay up all night,

836
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:09,040
Speaker 1: not all night, but way too late on a school

837
00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:11,239
Speaker 1: night to braid my hair. I would be And by

838
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:14,919
Speaker 1: the way, I grew up in white suburb of Hartford, Connecticut,

839
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:17,560
Speaker 1: you know, and when my dad asked me what I

840
00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:21,640
Speaker 1: wanted for Hanukah, I said, I want my hair braided professionally.

841
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:24,960
Speaker 1: I want corn rows. And my mom, who's a nurse,

842
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:28,160
Speaker 1: works with a bunch of black nurses as co workers

843
00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:31,799
Speaker 1: in Hartford based hospital, and she asked them. Shocked to them,

844
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:33,920
Speaker 1: she told them, I don't know what their reactions were.

845
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:35,759
Speaker 1: I wish I could go back in time and find out.

846
00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:39,680
Speaker 1: But you know, they pointed her to a braid shop

847
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:43,919
Speaker 1: in Hartford, Connecticut and over you know, holiday break during

848
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:45,839
Speaker 1: middle school. By the way, this is sixth grade. Middle

849
00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:48,279
Speaker 1: school is hard enough. So why why the hell did

850
00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:50,840
Speaker 1: I do this to myself? I said, awesome, I'm gonna

851
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:53,360
Speaker 1: go get my hair braided. I did. It took a while.

852
00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:57,600
Speaker 1: It was really painful for a little white girl whose

853
00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:00,359
Speaker 1: scalp hadn't been pulled on my entire life. And I'm

854
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:03,600
Speaker 1: sitting there with turquoise and glitter beads on the bottom

855
00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:07,719
Speaker 1: of every braid, loving my luck, shaking my head and

856
00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:11,160
Speaker 1: just being like, this is the ultimate gift. This is

857
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:15,120
Speaker 1: my I'm so happy. What the hell right? So what

858
00:46:15,239 --> 00:46:18,719
Speaker 1: the hell is happening here? My parents are? They have

859
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:20,640
Speaker 1: let me, you know, do my own thing, my own

860
00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:23,319
Speaker 1: entire life. So I guess props to them for not

861
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:26,120
Speaker 1: giving me any grief about it. I don't know. So

862
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:28,200
Speaker 1: here's what happens. I get on the school bus the

863
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:32,040
Speaker 1: first day back from holiday break, and I am being

864
00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:35,440
Speaker 1: bullied immediately, and I'm thinking, how cool is my hair man?

865
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:38,879
Speaker 1: Everyone's gonna love it every I literally thought that all

866
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:41,520
Speaker 1: these white kids in my school, we're gonna love my hair.

867
00:46:42,120 --> 00:46:45,000
Speaker 1: And I'm getting called names that are not appropriate for

868
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:49,840
Speaker 1: air right, like bad names. And I'm getting asked weird

869
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:53,120
Speaker 1: questions by my classmates like where did you go? And

870
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:56,960
Speaker 1: finally my band teacher shout out to Mr Anderson, who

871
00:46:57,080 --> 00:46:59,120
Speaker 1: was woke before kind of knew what work was, but

872
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:01,799
Speaker 1: he he was at least clear with me enough to say, well,

873
00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:05,400
Speaker 1: did you go on a cruise? And then thinking like,

874
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:08,120
Speaker 1: uh no, we don't have that kind of money, Like

875
00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:09,440
Speaker 1: who do you think I am? And I'm like no,

876
00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:11,680
Speaker 1: And he says did you go to the Bahamas? I'm

877
00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:14,399
Speaker 1: like no, and he goes where'd you get your hair done?

878
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:16,600
Speaker 1: And I looked him straight in the eye and I said, Hartford,

879
00:47:16,640 --> 00:47:18,759
Speaker 1: why does everyone give me so much grief about this?

880
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:21,960
Speaker 1: And the sad part of this story is I went

881
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:24,719
Speaker 1: home that night and immediately took them all out, But

882
00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:28,640
Speaker 1: you know, the other part of the story is I

883
00:47:28,719 --> 00:47:33,839
Speaker 1: had zero cultural understanding or respect for corn rows at

884
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:38,200
Speaker 1: the time, So is that cultural appropriation? And I, you know,

885
00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:41,239
Speaker 1: was I an ignorant little kid or was like was

886
00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:43,680
Speaker 1: it wrong for my parents let me do that? I mean,

887
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:47,360
Speaker 1: that was the day I learned that white girls cannot

888
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:50,560
Speaker 1: rock corn rows. And it wasn't from anyone black in

889
00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:52,600
Speaker 1: my life. And had told me that there weren't very

890
00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:54,160
Speaker 1: many people in my life at the time of black,

891
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:58,640
Speaker 1: but my white my weight, you know, colleagues and classmates

892
00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:01,120
Speaker 1: and teachers certainly let me know that was not allowed either.

893
00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:06,120
Speaker 1: I mean, that's a lot. I just feel very torried

894
00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:08,960
Speaker 1: about it. I feel like, is it ever okay for

895
00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:12,719
Speaker 1: a white person or rack corn ross? I mean, that's

896
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:18,239
Speaker 1: it's that's such a fraud question, right, Like, I you know,

897
00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:21,279
Speaker 1: it's it's interesting because I grew up seeing a lot

898
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:23,759
Speaker 1: of white people, like justin Timberlake used to do it

899
00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:26,200
Speaker 1: all the time. Remember back in the day. It's not

900
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:29,719
Speaker 1: it's not cool, it's bad. It's not like I see,

901
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:33,919
Speaker 1: like my just personally, my problem with it usually comes

902
00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:35,959
Speaker 1: from more of a like it looks weird, like even

903
00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:39,600
Speaker 1: before getting into even before like getting into like the

904
00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:45,719
Speaker 1: sixth grade. Emily put it in the show notes I

905
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:48,400
Speaker 1: haven't I haven't interesting sort of like parallel to that.

906
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:50,120
Speaker 1: So I grew up rand corn rows all the time

907
00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:52,680
Speaker 1: because like I said, I had long hair. Um. Usually

908
00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:54,800
Speaker 1: around the summertime, I would get them, like my grandma

909
00:48:54,880 --> 00:48:57,920
Speaker 1: was really good at doing them, and I always remember.

910
00:48:58,280 --> 00:49:00,440
Speaker 1: So I went to a school that was like be

911
00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:02,640
Speaker 1: It's like it was kind of diverse, but it was

912
00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:05,600
Speaker 1: very white. Um, and I remember when it was like

913
00:49:05,640 --> 00:49:08,200
Speaker 1: spring break or like coming back from the summer. Girls

914
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:10,120
Speaker 1: kind of like what you just said. They'd always come

915
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:12,680
Speaker 1: back from cruises with these like they had gotten their

916
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:15,520
Speaker 1: hair braided and with bees and so it was like

917
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:18,120
Speaker 1: half done, yeah ye, like because they didn't want to

918
00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:21,560
Speaker 1: go full what I did because I was like a

919
00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:23,880
Speaker 1: little part of their head. So usually it was from

920
00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:27,120
Speaker 1: the top and then the back was pretty blowing. And

921
00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:29,440
Speaker 1: so the people would always sort of and I, you know,

922
00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:32,160
Speaker 1: they would come back from these like vacations to the beach,

923
00:49:32,160 --> 00:49:34,080
Speaker 1: to the Bahamas, they'd beat tan and they would have

924
00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:36,880
Speaker 1: these like corn rows, and all their friends would be like, wow,

925
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:39,560
Speaker 1: where did you go? Like la la, But for me,

926
00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:43,520
Speaker 1: you know, I always You're like, excuse me, yeah, I see.

927
00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:45,560
Speaker 1: Then I would listen to these girls get like fond

928
00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:47,800
Speaker 1: over and I'd be like, I were this style every

929
00:49:48,040 --> 00:49:51,400
Speaker 1: day because they had to do you not appreciate my

930
00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:54,439
Speaker 1: car for me? I would, I would just I would

931
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:57,560
Speaker 1: just sit in class and like silently stew it would

932
00:49:57,840 --> 00:50:00,960
Speaker 1: eat me anthan side. Well that's all fall. So it's

933
00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:04,080
Speaker 1: just it's so fraught. It's so fraught, and I think

934
00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:09,640
Speaker 1: every time um My LEAs, IRUs Twerks or Kim Kardashian

935
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:12,800
Speaker 1: Corners or hair, these conversations come up. And I found

936
00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:16,440
Speaker 1: Jenny Avans, I want to say, Aven's of The Atlantic

937
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:22,200
Speaker 1: magazine finally put to words some of the discomfort I

938
00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:27,200
Speaker 1: feel around this, but also really put in stark terms

939
00:50:27,239 --> 00:50:32,400
Speaker 1: just how much appropriation is at the root of American culture.

940
00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:35,200
Speaker 1: It doesn't I feel like these are these are new

941
00:50:35,239 --> 00:50:39,680
Speaker 1: forms of appropriation. But she makes it clear that you know,

942
00:50:39,719 --> 00:50:41,760
Speaker 1: at her at her house, she says, and I quote,

943
00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:44,920
Speaker 1: getting dressed is a daily act of cultural appropriation, and

944
00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:47,960
Speaker 1: I'm not the least bit sorry about it. I step

945
00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:49,440
Speaker 1: out of the shower in the morning and pull on

946
00:50:49,480 --> 00:50:53,880
Speaker 1: a vintage cotted cotton kimono After moisturizing my face, I

947
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:57,680
Speaker 1: smear Lucas Papa ointment, a tip from an Australian makeup artist,

948
00:50:57,719 --> 00:51:00,080
Speaker 1: onto my lips before I make coffee with a be

949
00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:03,200
Speaker 1: a letty stovetop espresso maker a girlfriend brought back from Italy.

950
00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:05,920
Speaker 1: Depending on the weather, I might pull an embroidered flower

951
00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:09,040
Speaker 1: blouse I bought at a roadside shop in Mexico, or

952
00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:13,920
Speaker 1: a stripy Marionier style shirt originally inspired by the French,

953
00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:17,520
Speaker 1: but mine was from the surplus store standard issue rush

954
00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:21,840
Speaker 1: And tell Nish, I can't say this. So basically what

955
00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:23,359
Speaker 1: she's saying, and she goes on and on and on,

956
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:27,160
Speaker 1: is that her fashion choices are multicultural. And I don't

957
00:51:27,160 --> 00:51:30,920
Speaker 1: want to make excuses for ignorant appropriation, but I do

958
00:51:31,120 --> 00:51:35,319
Speaker 1: think this article brings up the dues and don't of

959
00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:40,800
Speaker 1: cultural appropriation what it looks like to respectfully rock styles

960
00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:44,440
Speaker 1: that originate from other people's cultures. And I know it's controversial,

961
00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:47,200
Speaker 1: but it is controversial, so you know, I think that

962
00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:49,440
Speaker 1: Like for me, I think, but I would be an

963
00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:52,560
Speaker 1: article like that and I would say, like, of course,

964
00:51:52,640 --> 00:51:54,520
Speaker 1: everybody like you go through your daily life and like

965
00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:56,680
Speaker 1: choices that you make are inspired by other cultures. Like

966
00:51:56,760 --> 00:52:00,719
Speaker 1: that's that's fine, but I also think gets important to

967
00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:02,960
Speaker 1: like recognize and I think that the article sort of

968
00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:05,759
Speaker 1: goes into this, like when you're when you're borrowing from

969
00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:08,520
Speaker 1: a culture that has a legacy of like oppression, and

970
00:52:08,560 --> 00:52:10,840
Speaker 1: so it's like, you know, being like, oh, this shirt

971
00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:14,040
Speaker 1: is French and like this whatever is inspired by like

972
00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:17,319
Speaker 1: Nate like like indigenous people. It's like Indigenous people in

973
00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:19,600
Speaker 1: the United States have a different legacy than French people

974
00:52:19,640 --> 00:52:22,040
Speaker 1: in the United States. So like, I think it's important

975
00:52:22,120 --> 00:52:25,279
Speaker 1: to sort of if you're going to you know, going

976
00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:28,960
Speaker 1: to wear something that's inspired by another person's culture, really

977
00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:31,799
Speaker 1: doing it respectfully and like knowing where that line is

978
00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:36,080
Speaker 1: between you know, like like appreciating and appropriating, because there

979
00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:39,480
Speaker 1: is a line. Yeah, I think so too. It's anxiety

980
00:52:39,520 --> 00:52:42,600
Speaker 1: provoking to play with that line too. So I think

981
00:52:42,640 --> 00:52:44,600
Speaker 1: there's an there's an argument to be made for not

982
00:52:45,200 --> 00:52:47,279
Speaker 1: just for the sake of not offending people, because people

983
00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:49,960
Speaker 1: can be offended whether or not your intentions are woke.

984
00:52:50,360 --> 00:52:52,680
Speaker 1: And Nicki Minaj actually who is quoted in this article,

985
00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:56,640
Speaker 1: really put things perfectly when she was reacting um to

986
00:52:56,719 --> 00:53:00,920
Speaker 1: Miley Cyrus's video and sort of the you know, the

987
00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:06,280
Speaker 1: praising of white women who adapt or rather adopt Black culture,

988
00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:10,319
Speaker 1: and the the overlooking of black women who have been

989
00:53:10,360 --> 00:53:12,759
Speaker 1: doing that all along, who have been wearing rows every

990
00:53:12,840 --> 00:53:16,040
Speaker 1: day and then be in from third grade and hair

991
00:53:16,640 --> 00:53:19,279
Speaker 1: gets compliments. So Nikki says, come on, you can't want

992
00:53:19,280 --> 00:53:22,920
Speaker 1: the good without the bad, said Nicki saimnage. If you

993
00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:26,000
Speaker 1: want to enjoy our culture and our lifestyle, bond with us,

994
00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:28,080
Speaker 1: dance with us, have fun with us, t werk with us,

995
00:53:28,160 --> 00:53:30,680
Speaker 1: wrap with us, and then you should also want to

996
00:53:30,680 --> 00:53:33,600
Speaker 1: know what affects us, what is bothering us, what we

997
00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:37,319
Speaker 1: feel is unfair to us. You shouldn't not want to

998
00:53:37,400 --> 00:53:41,200
Speaker 1: know that. And so I think the you know, there's

999
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:44,720
Speaker 1: an article or there's a component to this article that says,

1000
00:53:45,600 --> 00:53:50,799
Speaker 1: consider giving credit, but also beyond that, consider giving royalties,

1001
00:53:51,040 --> 00:53:55,680
Speaker 1: so you better give back and be involved actively in

1002
00:53:55,680 --> 00:53:59,839
Speaker 1: in fighting the oppression of the marginalized cultures from whom

1003
00:53:59,840 --> 00:54:03,040
Speaker 1: you're are adopting totally. And it's like when you think

1004
00:54:03,040 --> 00:54:06,680
Speaker 1: about people like ide Azalea, even that she often gets

1005
00:54:06,760 --> 00:54:10,160
Speaker 1: gets blamed for and like rightly so for wanting to

1006
00:54:10,239 --> 00:54:13,000
Speaker 1: borrow from black culture, but then like not wanting to

1007
00:54:13,040 --> 00:54:15,200
Speaker 1: know the intricacies of it, not wanting to know, like,

1008
00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:17,359
Speaker 1: and so it's like being in all lives matter person

1009
00:54:17,400 --> 00:54:20,239
Speaker 1: exactly like you can't if you're if like I feel

1010
00:54:20,239 --> 00:54:22,600
Speaker 1: like with her, it's like if black culture is the

1011
00:54:22,640 --> 00:54:24,600
Speaker 1: thing that's paying your rent, like you kind of owe

1012
00:54:24,680 --> 00:54:26,520
Speaker 1: us a little bit, right, like, and it's like I

1013
00:54:26,560 --> 00:54:31,560
Speaker 1: think that, like, it's so wrong too not to not

1014
00:54:32,040 --> 00:54:35,759
Speaker 1: care about police killings, do not care about you know, oppression,

1015
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:38,280
Speaker 1: do not care about you know, social injustice that impacts

1016
00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:41,640
Speaker 1: black communities, if you are actively like making money off

1017
00:54:41,640 --> 00:54:45,080
Speaker 1: of those communally. Yeah. Yeah, that's a really good point

1018
00:54:45,600 --> 00:54:47,080
Speaker 1: and it's something for all of us, I think, to

1019
00:54:47,080 --> 00:54:50,640
Speaker 1: integrate into our considerations. We're not just in hair, but

1020
00:54:50,719 --> 00:54:54,040
Speaker 1: in style in general. So hair is complicated. I think

1021
00:54:54,040 --> 00:54:56,080
Speaker 1: we can start to sort of wrap this up by

1022
00:54:56,120 --> 00:55:01,120
Speaker 1: acknowledging that there are so many trip wires that women

1023
00:55:01,200 --> 00:55:03,600
Speaker 1: run into when it comes to making choices about how

1024
00:55:03,600 --> 00:55:06,279
Speaker 1: we present to the world and conform or choose not

1025
00:55:06,320 --> 00:55:09,839
Speaker 1: to conform to traditional or white or anglow you know,

1026
00:55:10,160 --> 00:55:14,120
Speaker 1: um beauty standards in the world. But what's what's a

1027
00:55:14,160 --> 00:55:18,879
Speaker 1: sminty boss lady to do in light of all this? Well,

1028
00:55:18,920 --> 00:55:22,560
Speaker 1: I think it's really about doing you write like I think,

1029
00:55:22,600 --> 00:55:25,640
Speaker 1: if you want to have short hair, rock your short hair.

1030
00:55:25,719 --> 00:55:28,080
Speaker 1: If you want to have long hair, rock your long hair.

1031
00:55:28,120 --> 00:55:29,880
Speaker 1: If you want to have extensions, if you want to

1032
00:55:29,880 --> 00:55:33,240
Speaker 1: have twist, natural hair, relaxed hair. These are all personal

1033
00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:36,400
Speaker 1: choices and even though the outside world may try to

1034
00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:39,400
Speaker 1: put you know, meaning on them, ultimately you gotta do you.

1035
00:55:39,800 --> 00:55:41,400
Speaker 1: And I think the same can be said even for

1036
00:55:41,480 --> 00:55:44,680
Speaker 1: people with whom we vehemently disagree. I'm thinking back to

1037
00:55:44,760 --> 00:55:49,520
Speaker 1: that Ivanka Trump slam that that woman had in the

1038
00:55:49,640 --> 00:55:52,960
Speaker 1: article about saying, you know Milannia Trump or Notanca, you

1039
00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:55,279
Speaker 1: know Milannia Trump. Do the opposite of that. You can

1040
00:55:55,320 --> 00:55:57,680
Speaker 1: have Milannia Trump hair and still be a good feminist.

1041
00:55:57,680 --> 00:55:59,759
Speaker 1: I know plenty of women that have Bannia Trump hair

1042
00:55:59,760 --> 00:56:03,799
Speaker 1: who are so you know, there's no bad I think

1043
00:56:05,160 --> 00:56:08,000
Speaker 1: the politics of hair are fraud and they're complex, and

1044
00:56:08,200 --> 00:56:13,120
Speaker 1: that you can make a statement, you can impact the

1045
00:56:13,160 --> 00:56:16,359
Speaker 1: way others see you with your hair choices. But if

1046
00:56:16,360 --> 00:56:18,560
Speaker 1: you are making a strategic choice, Let's say you're a

1047
00:56:18,560 --> 00:56:21,960
Speaker 1: black woman who is treating your hair chemically and you're

1048
00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:24,480
Speaker 1: straightening your hair and you're, you know, keeping your hair

1049
00:56:24,719 --> 00:56:28,879
Speaker 1: looking in a way that is, you know, statistically more

1050
00:56:28,960 --> 00:56:32,080
Speaker 1: palatable to your white boss because you want to get ahead.

1051
00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:34,000
Speaker 1: There ain't no shame in that game either, and it

1052
00:56:34,080 --> 00:56:36,640
Speaker 1: doesn't make you less of a feminist or less woke, right,

1053
00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:40,320
Speaker 1: It's just it's a very personal choice. And yet I

1054
00:56:40,360 --> 00:56:45,160
Speaker 1: would argue there is nothing as incredibly and this is

1055
00:56:45,200 --> 00:56:46,719
Speaker 1: a privilege to be able to do this, but there's

1056
00:56:46,760 --> 00:56:51,400
Speaker 1: nothing that felt is good as aligning my outer hair

1057
00:56:51,600 --> 00:56:54,719
Speaker 1: look with how I really felt inside and like that

1058
00:56:54,719 --> 00:56:57,880
Speaker 1: that sort of expression of you know, I want to

1059
00:56:57,920 --> 00:57:00,480
Speaker 1: have some crazy intense hair and now feel like it's

1060
00:57:00,520 --> 00:57:02,880
Speaker 1: part of my my whole look, my whole thing. And

1061
00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:05,480
Speaker 1: I don't think I'm going anywhere anytime soon. But if

1062
00:57:05,480 --> 00:57:07,760
Speaker 1: you have the privilege to do that without worrying about

1063
00:57:07,800 --> 00:57:11,040
Speaker 1: how your boss is gonna treat you differently, I strongly

1064
00:57:11,160 --> 00:57:15,240
Speaker 1: encourage y'all to to make a chop or make a change,

1065
00:57:15,320 --> 00:57:18,280
Speaker 1: or I might throw in some extensions someday for the

1066
00:57:18,280 --> 00:57:20,560
Speaker 1: hell of it, because I mean, you gotta do you.

1067
00:57:20,680 --> 00:57:24,800
Speaker 1: I think that's the point here, and and uh, you know,

1068
00:57:24,880 --> 00:57:28,080
Speaker 1: I think engaging in the occasional hair speriment is something

1069
00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:30,400
Speaker 1: that I like to do as well, and and we

1070
00:57:30,440 --> 00:57:34,760
Speaker 1: can't judge each other for our hair choices. That's it.

1071
00:57:34,960 --> 00:57:37,120
Speaker 1: That's it. I think that's that's about it. So I

1072
00:57:37,120 --> 00:57:39,360
Speaker 1: want to hear from you. I want to hear from

1073
00:57:39,360 --> 00:57:44,240
Speaker 1: sninty listeners. Please tell us more about how your hair

1074
00:57:44,360 --> 00:57:48,200
Speaker 1: changes over time have impacted the way people have treated you.

1075
00:57:48,640 --> 00:57:50,960
Speaker 1: So did you make a big change and get some

1076
00:57:51,600 --> 00:57:55,320
Speaker 1: unfortunate and negative feedback and how did you deal? Did

1077
00:57:55,360 --> 00:57:58,160
Speaker 1: you go back or did you change it? Or did

1078
00:57:58,200 --> 00:58:02,360
Speaker 1: you ever make a hair our choice purely out of

1079
00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:05,880
Speaker 1: your own sort of desire to go for something that

1080
00:58:05,920 --> 00:58:08,160
Speaker 1: you've been admiring on other people for a long time,

1081
00:58:08,280 --> 00:58:11,920
Speaker 1: or if you haven't because you you're not sure that

1082
00:58:11,960 --> 00:58:14,320
Speaker 1: you can rock itt? What's holding you back? So I

1083
00:58:14,360 --> 00:58:17,240
Speaker 1: want to hear from you about your hair journey, whether

1084
00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:23,040
Speaker 1: you're natural, relaxed, raids, dreads, twists, whatever? Did you go natural?

1085
00:58:23,280 --> 00:58:25,600
Speaker 1: Why did you big chap when you went natural? Did

1086
00:58:25,600 --> 00:58:28,200
Speaker 1: you just grow it out? How do people change their way?

1087
00:58:28,200 --> 00:58:31,360
Speaker 1: They tweeted you when you went natural or didn't go natural? Um?

1088
00:58:31,400 --> 00:58:34,200
Speaker 1: You know, how has your hair impacted your work life,

1089
00:58:34,240 --> 00:58:37,800
Speaker 1: your romantic life, your family life. We want to hear

1090
00:58:37,840 --> 00:58:40,800
Speaker 1: from you. Yeah, so send us a note shoot us

1091
00:58:41,200 --> 00:58:44,520
Speaker 1: a tweet at mom Stuff podcast. You can also share

1092
00:58:44,960 --> 00:58:49,240
Speaker 1: a fierce photo of your awesome hair cut and what

1093
00:58:49,280 --> 00:58:54,160
Speaker 1: it means about your feminism on on Instagram at stuff

1094
00:58:54,200 --> 00:58:57,400
Speaker 1: mom Never Told You Or As always, we love to

1095
00:58:57,480 --> 00:59:00,000
Speaker 1: hear from you directly through our inbox, so shoot us

1096
00:59:00,000 --> 00:59:14,880
Speaker 1: an email at mom stuff at how stuff works dot com,

1097
00:59:04,880 --> 00:59:04,920
Speaker 1: m