1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,519 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from House Supports 2 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:14,440 Speaker 1: dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen 3 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:18,640 Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline. And since back to school time is happening, 4 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:22,840 Speaker 1: we are going to talk about fraternity ees because way 5 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:25,960 Speaker 1: back when in the podcast we did an episode on sororities, 6 00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 1: which if you haven't heard it, you can find it 7 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:31,520 Speaker 1: at stuff Mom Never Told You dot com. And so 8 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:36,840 Speaker 1: many years later, it's high time to talk about fraternities. 9 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 1: So first let's get things off with a little bit 10 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 1: of fraternity history to figure out how these Greek houses 11 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:49,120 Speaker 1: came to be. And for this we are referencing a 12 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 1: lot from Nicholas Sirates the Company He Keeps, which is 13 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 1: a history of white fraternitys in particular, and so he 14 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:01,720 Speaker 1: talks about how the early to US colleges were founded 15 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:05,480 Speaker 1: in the seventeenth century in New England specifically to educate 16 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 1: men for the ministry, and as a result, and also 17 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:13,280 Speaker 1: because of some other factors, just the fact that you're 18 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:16,920 Speaker 1: living in the seventeenth century in New England, college wasn't 19 00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 1: exactly a fun place to go. There was not that 20 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:22,640 Speaker 1: list of you know, the annual list of party schools. 21 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:28,960 Speaker 1: It was mostly a recitation and a lot of moralizing 22 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:35,320 Speaker 1: and very strict living habits powdered wigs and poundered wigs. Yes. 23 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:39,760 Speaker 1: And prior to fraternities, college literary societies were really the 24 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:43,880 Speaker 1: social hubs. Yeah, there are usually two at each college 25 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 1: and members would compete for the new freshmen, and early 26 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:52,440 Speaker 1: fraternity's actually retained this whole tradition of oratory recitation and 27 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:55,720 Speaker 1: the presentation of essays. And this might sound familiar if 28 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 1: you are familiar with Five Ata Kappa, which was the 29 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 1: first Greek letters society founded in seventeen seventy six at 30 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 1: the College of William and Mary. Phi Beta Kappa was 31 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 1: and still is a literary society and a place for 32 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:13,400 Speaker 1: intellectual debate. Now, Phi Beta Kappa is, like you said, 33 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:17,360 Speaker 1: a literary society, not a fraternity in the social sense 34 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 1: that we think of, But the secrecy and rituals that 35 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:27,360 Speaker 1: we associate with the social fraternities with the Sigma Alpha 36 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 1: epsilons at all began with Phi Beta Kappa. So fast 37 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 1: forward from seventeen seventy six to when you have five 38 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:42,480 Speaker 1: seniors at Union College who had been members of an 39 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:46,799 Speaker 1: organized military company that had then been dissolved. They got 40 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 1: together and decided to form a society for literary and 41 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 1: social purposes, and they called it the Kappa Alpha Society. 42 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 1: And within two years two more fraternities had started up 43 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:03,960 Speaker 1: at the college, Sigmafy and Deltafy. And so, but what 44 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 1: is the deal with this whole Greek thing? Why why 45 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:10,360 Speaker 1: did I even call fraternities and sororities by Greek names 46 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 1: and Greek letters. There was this whole new national interest 47 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:16,919 Speaker 1: in Greek as opposed to Roman culture as a model 48 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:21,959 Speaker 1: for the emerging citizenry, and fraternities, as Syate talks about 49 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:26,680 Speaker 1: in the Company He Keeps, really provided autonomy, specifically from 50 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 1: overbearing faculty. And these activities offered a break from just 51 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 1: that monotony of college life, which even at that time 52 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 1: that Kappa Alpha was founded, were still ministerial oriented um. 53 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 1: And also, of course it provided companionship um. And this 54 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 1: is important for this time considering how as society is changing, 55 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 1: even as we get into the mid nineteenth century. Fathers 56 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 1: of these guys, usually white, an upper class, you could 57 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 1: afford to send their sons off to college rather than 58 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 1: keeping them at home to work. Fathers couldn't necessarily hook 59 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:08,480 Speaker 1: their sons up with land because land was becoming more 60 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:13,360 Speaker 1: scarce and they didn't have as quick of an entree 61 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:17,000 Speaker 1: into social networks that would automatically get them a job. 62 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 1: And wasn't it great that they founded fraternities because now 63 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:23,040 Speaker 1: that's a lot of what it is once you get 64 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 1: into the professional world. Yeah, this whole discussion about like 65 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 1: seventeen hundreds and eighteen hundreds makes me think of my ancestor, 66 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:33,480 Speaker 1: George Chamberlain. He's like my great great great great uncle. 67 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:36,160 Speaker 1: He actually was part of a group of guys who 68 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 1: tried to save the life of Harriet Beecher Stowe's nephew 69 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 1: at Dartmouth. They went to Dartmouth, and anyway, his his sister, 70 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 1: who survived him when he was killed in the Civil War, 71 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:49,360 Speaker 1: compiled all of his letters home from college and during 72 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 1: the war and everything, and his accounts of just like 73 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 1: it is so boring, I am so bored. I don't 74 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 1: want to go to class. Please send me more books. 75 00:04:57,200 --> 00:04:59,280 Speaker 1: And then he developed eye problems because he was reading 76 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:01,840 Speaker 1: so much at and he's like, my eyes are failing me. 77 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 1: I'm sure you didn't talk like that, but anyway, but 78 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:08,240 Speaker 1: I'm just like picturing my my grand uncle and his 79 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 1: mustache at college at Dartmouth, reading by candle light. Yeah, 80 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 1: college was no fun, and so it's not so surprising 81 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 1: that fraternity spread like wildfire after Cap Alpha was founded. 82 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:24,120 Speaker 1: So by the time the Civil War breaks out, there 83 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 1: were twenty two different fraternities with two D ninety nine 84 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:33,039 Speaker 1: chapters at seventy one colleges in twenty five states. And remember, 85 00:05:33,320 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 1: at this time, college enrollment again limited to white upper 86 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 1: class men, and a lot of white fraternity specifically excluded 87 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 1: non white, non Protestant groups, including Jews, Catholics, blacks, and 88 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 1: poor students. And it wasn't until after World War Two, 89 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:57,800 Speaker 1: with a civil rights movement that white frats really began 90 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:02,159 Speaker 1: to integrate on a more assistant basis. Right. Yeah, it 91 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:05,799 Speaker 1: wasn't until nineteen oh six that the first black Greek 92 00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 1: letter organization was founded. It's Alpha Phi Alpha at Cornell. 93 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:12,320 Speaker 1: And you have to keep in mind the context of 94 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:15,359 Speaker 1: the time, because only a few years prior, in eighteen 95 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:17,799 Speaker 1: ninety six, you had the plus e versus Ferguson ruling, 96 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 1: which basically upheld segregation by saying that separate but equal 97 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 1: was okay. And these Cornell students at the time didn't 98 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:30,320 Speaker 1: even have access to student housing, university, public facilities, organized athletics, 99 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 1: or the existing white social groups. So they had to 100 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:35,200 Speaker 1: carve out their own space. Yeah, and the founding of 101 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 1: Black Greek Letter Organizations UM as they're referred to it 102 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:42,480 Speaker 1: stands in such contrast to white fraternities, which are often 103 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 1: founded on the basis of exclusion, whereas black fraternities were 104 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 1: more founded on the basis of inclusion. If you look 105 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:54,840 Speaker 1: at the charters of black fraternities, you don't have those 106 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 1: exclusionary like no Jews allowed by laws written into it 107 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:03,359 Speaker 1: in the same way that some white fraternities had. And 108 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:07,520 Speaker 1: so some of the motivations for organizing Alpha Phi Alpha 109 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 1: and the in the earliest Black Greek letter organizations UM 110 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 1: were two main things. The tradition of quote organizing for 111 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 1: the good of the race as modeled by their parents 112 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 1: generation and those before them. Because you got to remember 113 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 1: this is in nineteen o six Alphai Office founded, and 114 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 1: so their parents and their grandparents would likely have been 115 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:31,640 Speaker 1: involved in the abolition movement. So, for instance, they would 116 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:35,280 Speaker 1: have been following in the example of Prince Hall and 117 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 1: Richard Allen, who established their own Masonic lodge in Church 118 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 1: a century prior, since African Americans were excluded from the 119 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 1: white establishment. Essentially, they were like, well, you know what, 120 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:52,120 Speaker 1: if we aren't allowed into these groups, then we will 121 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 1: organize on our own and uplift ourselves. Yeah. So the 122 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 1: whole issue of of racial pride was definitely strongly tied 123 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:02,640 Speaker 1: into these early organizations and the idea of service, so 124 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 1: helping helping their own community as well. Yeah, and so 125 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 1: have the founding of the National Pan Hellenic Council for 126 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 1: the Divine Nine, and the Divine nine refers to the 127 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 1: first five Black fraternities, in the first four Black sororities. 128 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 1: So in a similar way as you see that the 129 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 1: quick growth of traditionally white fraternities, there's also quick growth 130 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 1: among black Greek letter organizations as well. Yeah, because I 131 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 1: mean these are support whatever kind of support. These are 132 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 1: support type organizations, you know, where you're you're banning together 133 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:40,320 Speaker 1: with people who were like you and you're helping lift 134 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 1: each other up. Well. And one of the things that 135 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:45,680 Speaker 1: the scholar pointed out about the founding of those groups 136 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 1: is that it was literally a tool of survival for 137 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 1: those earliest black students at Cornell and other colleges that 138 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:57,080 Speaker 1: were admitting black students at the time because they were 139 00:08:57,160 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 1: facing so much overwhelming discrimine nation. Absolutely, and you know, 140 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:06,080 Speaker 1: so when you think back to very very early white fraternities, 141 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:08,440 Speaker 1: you think of like people like my great uncle, who 142 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 1: you know, were incredibly bored at Dartmouth. Really kind of 143 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:16,960 Speaker 1: white fraternities have actually always been trouble. They've always sort 144 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 1: of been a thorn in the side of school administrators. 145 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:23,520 Speaker 1: And this didn't start with Animal House, which BT dubs 146 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 1: was inspired by fraternities at Dartmouth. Yeah, between seventeen seventy 147 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 1: six and eighteen sixty, Nicolas Siret points out that not 148 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 1: one of the New England colleges was without some form 149 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:40,320 Speaker 1: of revolt. You had situations where students, male students, because 150 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 1: it was really only guys in college of a time, 151 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 1: male students were physically attacking faculty members because they were 152 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:53,880 Speaker 1: essentially revolting against the strict standards that the colleges were 153 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:57,839 Speaker 1: trying to enforce and saying like, no, we're not going 154 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:00,679 Speaker 1: to deal with this. And college and the Shares weren't 155 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 1: huge fans of fraternities because, uh they a lot of 156 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 1: them deliberately flouted college rules that were banning them and 157 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:14,079 Speaker 1: so they became an early means by which students were 158 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 1: asserting their independence, and things like hazing, defying the rules 159 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:23,679 Speaker 1: and of course being exclusionary happened from the get go. 160 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:26,240 Speaker 1: I mean, even if you look in the late eighteen hundreds, 161 00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:30,080 Speaker 1: in the early nineteen hundreds, you have freshmen students being 162 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:34,560 Speaker 1: forced by older fraternity members to carry their books around 163 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 1: campus or they would One common hazing prank they would 164 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:42,560 Speaker 1: pull would be smoking freshmen out of their rooms. They 165 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:47,120 Speaker 1: would essentially like lock their doors from the outside I guess, 166 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:51,839 Speaker 1: and then put like light smoke under the door so 167 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:54,120 Speaker 1: that they would have to figure out how to get 168 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 1: out of their rooms somehow. Well, so hazing is still 169 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 1: common obviously, which we'll talk about up. But one thing 170 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 1: that's not as common anymore as traditions like glee club 171 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:10,080 Speaker 1: style singing and group crooning to woo women on campus. Yeah, 172 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:14,079 Speaker 1: this is one highlight among what we typically think of 173 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:18,160 Speaker 1: in our more modern animal house era of fraternities with 174 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 1: that includes a lot of extreme hazing and uh drinking 175 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 1: to excess. But if you look at the golden era, 176 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:28,199 Speaker 1: perhaps would you call the golden era, I don't know, 177 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 1: of fraternities, there was a lot of that. There was 178 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 1: some cheese factor to it um where they would go 179 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 1: around and sing, which reminds me of the movie Pitch Perfect, 180 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 1: in which you have the glee clubs out on campus 181 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 1: singing to impress women. And we'd laugh at that now, 182 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:49,400 Speaker 1: but old school frat boys that is what they would do. 183 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:52,079 Speaker 1: But yeah, there was one article that spoke with a 184 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:55,599 Speaker 1: guy who had been in a fraternity in the fifties, 185 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:58,640 Speaker 1: I think, and who was saying that, you know, I 186 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 1: just wasn't like that, you know, I wore a suit 187 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:03,320 Speaker 1: and tied at dinner, and I asked women out on dates. 188 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 1: And well, and they did in those earlier days to 189 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:13,319 Speaker 1: still have a focus, a stronger focus on the literary tradition, 190 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:20,480 Speaker 1: on oratory, on decorum, and on crooning. That's right now. 191 00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 1: Black fraternities also took on the singing tradition as well, 192 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 1: but they also stepped it up a notch. And that 193 00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:29,920 Speaker 1: is a bit of a pun, uh, because, particularly in 194 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 1: the fifties and sixties, you have the rise of doo 195 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 1: wop groups who are not only singing songs that they're 196 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:37,959 Speaker 1: also doing some choreographed moves along with it. And so 197 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:45,160 Speaker 1: black fraternity members started integrating dance into their on campus singing, 198 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:49,520 Speaker 1: which then evolved into the stepping tradition that you see 199 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:54,319 Speaker 1: thriving on campuses today, which if you haven't been to 200 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 1: a step show just you can YouTube, and you should. 201 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:02,959 Speaker 1: It's definitely worth watching because essentially it's um using your 202 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:07,679 Speaker 1: body as a rhythm instrument. Is that a weird way 203 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:10,679 Speaker 1: of explaining it? Now, it's it's fascinating, it's awesome, it's 204 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 1: incredible that they can do this. I have no rhythm, 205 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:15,960 Speaker 1: so I would not be able to participate. But now 206 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:19,000 Speaker 1: we have to move away from just the glory days 207 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:22,960 Speaker 1: of crooning and and well, stepping still happens. But moving 208 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:29,199 Speaker 1: into the discussion on contemporary fraternities, this is where the 209 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 1: conversation gets a little bit diceier, because, as we mentioned, 210 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:37,480 Speaker 1: fraternities have historically been sort of thorns in the sides 211 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:43,440 Speaker 1: of college administrators. Watch any comedy from the eighties about 212 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:46,960 Speaker 1: fraternity members and you'll see it in action. Because as 213 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:50,200 Speaker 1: we mentioned, fraternities have historically been thorns in the sides 214 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:54,120 Speaker 1: of college administrators. And while yes, let us go ahead 215 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 1: and acknowledge that fraternities do service projects to enrich their 216 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:03,839 Speaker 1: community ease and they are, you know, some focused on 217 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:09,120 Speaker 1: helping guys you know, succeed academically and network to get 218 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:14,400 Speaker 1: jobs outside of college. There are some problematic issues, not 219 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:17,839 Speaker 1: surprisingly with fraternities. But first let's just talk about the 220 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:24,600 Speaker 1: structure of contemporary frats, right. So in four fraternities created 221 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:28,040 Speaker 1: the Fraternity Risk Management Trust, and this this had a 222 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 1: lot to do with insurance, right, like dealing with the 223 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 1: actual physical risks that came with being in a fraternity. 224 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 1: And now nowadays thirty two fraternities belong to the trust. 225 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:44,720 Speaker 1: You also have the North American Interfraternity Conference, which I've 226 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 1: seen described as bipartisan, which is very telling because, as 227 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 1: we'll talk about, fraternities and sororities have a lot of 228 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:57,760 Speaker 1: pull in Congress and whatnot. But it counts seventy four 229 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:02,040 Speaker 1: national and international fraternities that members comprising three hundred and 230 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 1: twenty five thousand individuals. Yeah, there's not actually a clearing 231 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:10,400 Speaker 1: house for fraternity statistics. There's nobody who's going to tell 232 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 1: you down to the number how many fraternity members there are. 233 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 1: Um because they don't operate within the school structure. The 234 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 1: fraternities essentially are part of a giant or not giant necessarily, 235 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:26,800 Speaker 1: but they're part of a corporation. Yeah, but there are 236 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 1: plenty of schools out there who do not have fraternities 237 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 1: or have gotten rid of them or replace them with 238 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:37,400 Speaker 1: co ed social house groups. Their schools like Notre Dame 239 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 1: Rice and Vassar who have no Greek system, UH, schools 240 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:44,560 Speaker 1: like Brandi's, Harvard and Georgetown as well. There are schools 241 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 1: that have off campus fraternities and schools that just simply 242 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:50,440 Speaker 1: don't recognize them whatsoever. And while I wish that we 243 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 1: could spend the rest of this podcast extolling the virtues 244 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 1: of fraternities, because there are plenty um there. If you 245 00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 1: talk to guys who have been in fraternities, they I'm 246 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 1: sure all have like hilarious stories to tell and talk 247 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 1: about the bonds of brotherhood and the friendships that they 248 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 1: have forged and how they might have helped them out 249 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 1: academically or professionally. But unfortunately, when you talk about fraternities today, 250 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 1: what you're typically talking about, first off, is issues of drinking, 251 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:26,280 Speaker 1: because sororities and sorority houses are almost always dry. You 252 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 1: don't proper sorority women do not drink in their house. Well, 253 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 1: at least you know openly um. But that means that 254 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:38,320 Speaker 1: the a lot of the drinking happens over at fraternities. 255 00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 1: And part of why that shift happened was because in 256 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:47,920 Speaker 1: the National Minimum Drinking Age Act pushed partying to frat 257 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 1: houses because it raised the drinking age from across the 258 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:54,800 Speaker 1: nation from eighteen to twenty one. So we're freshmen gonna 259 00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 1: drink if they can't go to a bar, if they 260 00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 1: don't have a fake I T right, they're going to 261 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:00,880 Speaker 1: go to the house. Well, it's funny that. What's not funny, 262 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:04,080 Speaker 1: but it's funny that there's this risk management policy that 263 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 1: was drafted in the mid nineteen eighties that basically dictated 264 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:10,879 Speaker 1: how drinking is supposed to happen or not happen, how 265 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:13,840 Speaker 1: it's supposed to be handled in fraternity houses. But it 266 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:19,440 Speaker 1: essentially doesn't. It didn't really stick. Uh. And you know, 267 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:21,919 Speaker 1: there's all these rules and guidelines for how it's supposed 268 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:24,800 Speaker 1: to happen, but I mean, I can't say that it 269 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 1: really has an effect. Yeah, I mean, anyone from the 270 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:32,280 Speaker 1: North American Intro Fraternity Conference who is listening to this 271 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:35,440 Speaker 1: podcast right now would quickly write us and say that 272 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:39,000 Speaker 1: absolutely this first management policy is very much in effect, 273 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:42,439 Speaker 1: because these are the rules by which fraternity members can 274 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:45,119 Speaker 1: drink in a house, and it involves students who are 275 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:48,720 Speaker 1: twenty one enough being allowed to bring at most a 276 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 1: six pack of beer or a four pack of wine 277 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 1: coolers that they then will when when they arrive at 278 00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 1: the house, they have to go to a sober checkpoint 279 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:02,240 Speaker 1: and talk to a ober monitor, and the sober monitor 280 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 1: will ask the person if he's been drinking, and if so, 281 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:06,879 Speaker 1: he has to hand over his I D. And then 282 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:09,600 Speaker 1: he also gets a wristband for that six pack. The 283 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:11,960 Speaker 1: six pack is then taken from him and put I 284 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:16,960 Speaker 1: guess into a magical refrigerator and then they can go 285 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:20,960 Speaker 1: have their fun and he can retrieve via sober checkpoint 286 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:24,560 Speaker 1: one of his beers, you know, as he needs to 287 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:27,760 Speaker 1: refill until his six pack is gone and then the 288 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:33,359 Speaker 1: party's over. Well guess what, that probably never happens because 289 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:39,280 Speaker 1: those sober monitors are also fraternity brothers, and fraternity brothers 290 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:41,760 Speaker 1: probably a lot of times when they want to have 291 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 1: a party, um there, they're going to bring more than 292 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:50,919 Speaker 1: a six pack. Yeah, and so we you know, there 293 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:55,840 Speaker 1: are a lot of depressing statistics around drinking and fraternity's. 294 00:18:56,119 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 1: For instance, since two thousand five, fifty nine students have 295 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:04,240 Speaker 1: died and incidents involving fraternities, about half of them being 296 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:08,480 Speaker 1: alcohol related. It's it's a big deal. And a two 297 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:12,960 Speaker 1: thousand one study coined the term Greek effect to denote 298 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:17,560 Speaker 1: the strong correlation between fraternity affiliation and drinking. And it's 299 00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:20,960 Speaker 1: not just limited to fraternities. There is just as much 300 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 1: research on the connections between drinking and sorority members as well. 301 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:28,680 Speaker 1: But a lot of times the extent of the drinking 302 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:35,200 Speaker 1: is even more severe for guys with frat affiliations. And 303 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:38,160 Speaker 1: this is just a quote from a two thousand nine 304 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 1: study that really drives home how much of an issue 305 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:45,760 Speaker 1: this is. Quote. Virtually every study of drinking in college 306 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:48,960 Speaker 1: shows fraternity members tend to drink more heavily and more 307 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:52,640 Speaker 1: frequently and to have more alcohol related problems than their 308 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:56,520 Speaker 1: fellow students. Virtually every study, and folks, I can tell 309 00:19:56,560 --> 00:19:59,200 Speaker 1: you from researching for this episode, there are a lot 310 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 1: of studies and when it comes to hallmarks of fraternity life, 311 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:06,600 Speaker 1: of course here's a drinking, but there's also the issue 312 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:09,840 Speaker 1: of hazing. Well, So first of all, we should say 313 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:13,200 Speaker 1: that hazing is illegal in forty four states. And no, 314 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 1: it is not limited to fraternities. Hazing happens and a 315 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:20,200 Speaker 1: lot of different types of groups on college campuses, whether 316 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 1: you're an athlete, etcetera, etcetera. But we should point out 317 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 1: instances like in a University of Tennessee fraternity was suspended 318 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:35,359 Speaker 1: for making pledges pour hot sauce on their penises. Yeah, 319 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:37,679 Speaker 1: I mean, this is the kind of stuff that happens, 320 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:42,119 Speaker 1: and I think it's it's almost laughable to think of 321 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:45,240 Speaker 1: guys being told to pour hot sauce on their penises 322 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:48,800 Speaker 1: and then actually doing it. Um. And I think a 323 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:52,960 Speaker 1: lot of fraternity members defend this kind of hazing because 324 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:56,200 Speaker 1: they had to do it, and it bonds them together 325 00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:58,639 Speaker 1: and it gives them stories to tell. But there are 326 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:03,159 Speaker 1: also been instances of life threatening hazing, such as I 327 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 1: and I don't have the college or the frat in 328 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:08,280 Speaker 1: front of me, but there was an incident of guys 329 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:12,720 Speaker 1: being made to stand naked in trash cans filled with 330 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:17,200 Speaker 1: ice like that can that can kill you, and people 331 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:23,399 Speaker 1: have died. As of March. Sigma Alpha Epsilon, dubbed by 332 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:28,040 Speaker 1: Bloomberg News the deadliest frat, ended up banning pledging all 333 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 1: together because of nine fatalities that had happened across its 334 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:36,600 Speaker 1: fraternity chapters in recent years, some of which were related 335 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 1: to hazing. Because along with this kind of hazing behavior 336 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:45,280 Speaker 1: of you know, from pouring hot sauce on your scrotum 337 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:49,160 Speaker 1: to having to stand naked in a thing of ice water, 338 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:52,680 Speaker 1: A lot of this is happening while drinking is going on. 339 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:54,840 Speaker 1: So as you can imagine, if you're already engaging in 340 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:57,879 Speaker 1: risky behavior, Dauset and some Jack Daniels and you have 341 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:01,639 Speaker 1: a recipe in some cases for death. Yeah. And and 342 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:03,359 Speaker 1: what's kind of crazy to me is that there's this 343 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 1: group that actively lobbies against legislation that would make it 344 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:16,240 Speaker 1: make hazing penalties even worse. They're called frat Pack, which whatever, 345 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:20,720 Speaker 1: but they're political action committee who actively lobbies the nearly 346 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:24,080 Speaker 1: forty senators and more than one hundred House of Representative 347 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 1: members who were in fraternities and sororities to fend off 348 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:32,440 Speaker 1: this anti hazing and anti Greek or what they think 349 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:35,480 Speaker 1: of as anti Greek legislation. Yeah. I mean, it's so 350 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:38,560 Speaker 1: common for our politicians to have had some kind of 351 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:43,680 Speaker 1: Greek association. Frat Pack is pretty successful in their lobbying, 352 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 1: because once people are in fraternities and sororities, they do 353 00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:50,520 Speaker 1: tend to have very strong ties and just basic fondness 354 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:54,520 Speaker 1: for the Greek system. And it helps too that frat Pack, 355 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:57,439 Speaker 1: for instance, has hundreds of thousands of dollars at its 356 00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:03,480 Speaker 1: disposal that it has donated to Greek friendly politicians. So 357 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:05,520 Speaker 1: while there I don't think there's any fraternity out there 358 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:10,959 Speaker 1: that would endorse violent hazing. I mean, I think hazing 359 00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:14,359 Speaker 1: is something that definitely still goes on, even though it is, 360 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:17,760 Speaker 1: like you said, illegal in forty four states, and the 361 00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:22,879 Speaker 1: powers that be absolutely you know, publicly say that it 362 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:25,719 Speaker 1: should not happen, but there is the fact that it's 363 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 1: still persistent. There are questions as to whether or not 364 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:33,240 Speaker 1: other fraternities should also follow in say Es footsteps and 365 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:36,440 Speaker 1: banning pledging altogether, because that's the period of time pledging 366 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:41,719 Speaker 1: is when they initiate new members. And so perhaps if 367 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:45,080 Speaker 1: you get rid of pledge and make it less exclusionary, 368 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:50,159 Speaker 1: then maybe you could make it is safer environment for 369 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:53,399 Speaker 1: guys to join, and then you can actually have more 370 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:58,719 Speaker 1: focused on the kind of ideals that fraternity's ostensibly uphold, 371 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:01,360 Speaker 1: such as being a good citizen, being a gentleman, being 372 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 1: a good guy, being a successful scholar and member of 373 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 1: the world at large. But there's usually a lot of 374 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:13,359 Speaker 1: resistance to that, and drinking and hazing ng are not 375 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 1: the only potential downsides to what happens when you are 376 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:24,880 Speaker 1: exclusionary and keep a lot of things happening behind closed 377 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:28,200 Speaker 1: doors and in secret. So yeah, I mean, speaking of 378 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:34,880 Speaker 1: being exclusive and exclusionary, there's a fascinating discussion that goes 379 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:39,680 Speaker 1: on in Nicholas Cyrit's book about that very topic and 380 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:45,280 Speaker 1: the fact that this exclusionary attitude and behavior focuses and 381 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:50,120 Speaker 1: centers around masculinity. And and you know, as we've talked 382 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:53,639 Speaker 1: about before on the podcast, you know, issues of ideas 383 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:58,840 Speaker 1: and ideals of masculinity have definitely changed over the centuries. 384 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:01,679 Speaker 1: What it means to be a friend has changed, how 385 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:05,399 Speaker 1: you exhibit your masculinity. But what hasn't changed is that 386 00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:11,160 Speaker 1: in a group like a fraternity, you're sort of apart 387 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 1: from the quote unquote other, and you're trying very hard, 388 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 1: typically in this situation, to exhibit your masculinity, improve yourself, 389 00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:25,159 Speaker 1: to be a true guy. And so when you have 390 00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:28,920 Speaker 1: things that are occurring in society, like the women's movement, 391 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:34,640 Speaker 1: like gay rights movements, you have the standards of masculinity 392 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 1: changing to kind of respond to that. So if you 393 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:41,200 Speaker 1: know women are gaining more rights, well women are women 394 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 1: and I'm a real man. And if if gay people 395 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:46,280 Speaker 1: are gaining more rights, well ah, oh, that's you know, 396 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:49,480 Speaker 1: gay people are not real men either. So there's really 397 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:55,360 Speaker 1: interesting discussions going on about masculinity and exclusion and who 398 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 1: is being excluded. Yeah, and this is something that Cyrate 399 00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:01,240 Speaker 1: traces back to when you start to see more of 400 00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:04,960 Speaker 1: the rise of homophobia at the same time to the 401 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:09,600 Speaker 1: rise of women's rights. And one quote from his book 402 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:15,199 Speaker 1: that jumped out was, quote fraternal manliness, originated around class status, 403 00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 1: had begun to encompass whiteness and Protestantism by the turn 404 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 1: of the century, and by the post World War two 405 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 1: period were anchored in the performance of an aggressive heterosexuality. 406 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:30,720 Speaker 1: And so, sir, it posits that it is that pursuit 407 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 1: of quote aggressive heterosexuality, which is where we see in 408 00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:42,359 Speaker 1: fraternity's traditions of homophobia, because if you're living in a 409 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:45,480 Speaker 1: house in close quarters with all these dudes, well you 410 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:49,400 Speaker 1: need to prove that you're not gay. And also from 411 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:55,080 Speaker 1: there too, issues that fraternities that have had with sexual assault. 412 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 1: So first let's talk about homophobia, because this is an 413 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 1: area where things have stayed the same, but things have 414 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:09,120 Speaker 1: also gotten better in terms of LGBT inclusion. In Night six, 415 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 1: for instance, Delta Lambda five became the first national social 416 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:17,520 Speaker 1: fraternity for gay, bisexual and straight progressive men, and then 417 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:21,679 Speaker 1: in n you have Alpha Lambda Tau becoming the second 418 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:25,280 Speaker 1: right and in between there in nineteen, the LAMB to 419 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:29,520 Speaker 1: ten Project, national clearinghouse for gay, lesbian, bisexual, fraternity and 420 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:34,960 Speaker 1: sorority issues was founded. UM. And the experience of gay 421 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:39,960 Speaker 1: Greeks basically depends on the organization, and typically it has 422 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:44,439 Speaker 1: been easier, they say, to rush as like a closeted 423 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:48,600 Speaker 1: person and then gradually come out once you've made these relationships. UM. 424 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:51,480 Speaker 1: And this is coming from a great article over at 425 00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 1: campus Pride dot org by Shane l Winmeyer and George Miller, 426 00:27:56,080 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 1: and they started talked about how in more Maine dream 427 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:07,040 Speaker 1: legacy fraternities like say a Kappa Alpha. UM, it's perhaps 428 00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:10,359 Speaker 1: getting better and more inclusive for openly gay guys to 429 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:13,879 Speaker 1: want to rush, but it's still nonetheless a liability if 430 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:16,720 Speaker 1: you want to guarantee your chances or improve at least 431 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:20,800 Speaker 1: to your chances of getting in, then you might not 432 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:24,360 Speaker 1: want to let everybody know that you are gay. Um. 433 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:27,359 Speaker 1: Any they write that less than ten percent of fraternities 434 00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:31,479 Speaker 1: have added non discrimination in their by laws, essentially saying, hey, 435 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:36,000 Speaker 1: we're not going to not consider you for membership if 436 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:40,240 Speaker 1: we know that you're gay. Um. But one positive anecdote 437 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:44,160 Speaker 1: from this, Uh, friends of mine who actually just got 438 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:48,000 Speaker 1: married a couple of months ago to guys met at 439 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:51,560 Speaker 1: their college fraternity. I think, I mean, I think they 440 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:53,760 Speaker 1: were like both open and out at that, but I 441 00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 1: think they were just also at like a more progressive 442 00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:59,160 Speaker 1: college obviously in a more progressive fraternity. That's yeah, that's 443 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 1: what that was My next question, like, did they go 444 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:04,920 Speaker 1: to school at like a big Southern like big Southern 445 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 1: school with a big Greek system or did they go 446 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,920 Speaker 1: to more progressive they were in, uh, like Northeast, so 447 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:14,000 Speaker 1: more more progressive. Absolutely. Um. But this issue too of 448 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:17,960 Speaker 1: homophobia is something that has been talked about a lot 449 00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:24,719 Speaker 1: lately by scholars looking more specifically at black Greek letter organizations. Um. 450 00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:29,640 Speaker 1: It being gay is something that is rarely discussed. Gregory 451 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:33,960 Speaker 1: s Park Wake Forest law professor writing about this, says, Um, 452 00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 1: he talks about how influences of masculinity, constructs and stereotyping 453 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:47,120 Speaker 1: has really forced any semblance of being gay into the closet, 454 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 1: particularly in black fraternities, even more so somethink than white fraternities. Interesting, well, 455 00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:59,520 Speaker 1: I mean, speaking of black fraternities and other issues that 456 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:03,760 Speaker 1: a lot fraternity's grapple with. Rishawn Ray, in his book 457 00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:08,560 Speaker 1: Sophisticated Practitioners Black Fraternity Men's Treatment of Women points out 458 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:13,200 Speaker 1: that black fraternity men typically tend to treat women more 459 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:18,840 Speaker 1: respectfully than white fraternity men and other black men. Why 460 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:22,400 Speaker 1: he says? He says, it's due to the socialization process 461 00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:25,520 Speaker 1: that black fraternity men normally undergo to be members of 462 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:28,880 Speaker 1: that organization. So what's up with that? Yeah? Um. And 463 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:32,320 Speaker 1: Ray's also one who's looked into that issue of homophobia 464 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:38,720 Speaker 1: in black fraternities as well, and he refers to their 465 00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:44,720 Speaker 1: treatment towards women as being sophisticated practitioners. So in a sense, 466 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:49,080 Speaker 1: they are balancing a higher accountability that they are held 467 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 1: to while still leveraging their fraternity status to achieve sexual goals. 468 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:58,160 Speaker 1: So he references a two thousand ten study um which 469 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:02,440 Speaker 1: concluded that do to the small size of the black community, 470 00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 1: particularly at predominantly white institutions, they hold black fraternity men 471 00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:11,000 Speaker 1: more accountable for their treatment of women in a way 472 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:16,000 Speaker 1: that the larger white community does not for white fraternity men. 473 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:20,000 Speaker 1: And there is a lot in the socialization process of 474 00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:24,280 Speaker 1: black fraternity men. There is and has historically been a 475 00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:29,480 Speaker 1: lot of focus on being exemplary members of their community 476 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:32,840 Speaker 1: because they are well aware of the fact that a 477 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:38,680 Speaker 1: lot of stereotypes exists regarding how black men, particularly treat 478 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:42,200 Speaker 1: white women, for instance, a lot of racist undertones to 479 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:44,800 Speaker 1: how society sees them at large in that way. And 480 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 1: so it's like they are they're aware of the fact 481 00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:52,400 Speaker 1: that anything that they do to feed into that stereotype 482 00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:56,560 Speaker 1: will only harm the community at large, and so for 483 00:31:56,800 --> 00:32:01,440 Speaker 1: that reason, they tend to be more factful of women. 484 00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:03,920 Speaker 1: Even when it comes to just their dating approach, they 485 00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:07,520 Speaker 1: are likelier to take a romantic dating approach if they 486 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:09,360 Speaker 1: want to go out with women compared to just a 487 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:13,360 Speaker 1: straight up sexual approach. Yeah, and I mean speaking of 488 00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:16,320 Speaker 1: a sexual approach. Nicholas Syrett talks a lot about this 489 00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:19,960 Speaker 1: in his book as well, talking about how traditional white 490 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:26,320 Speaker 1: fraternity culture sort of facilitates and almost encourages sexually aggressive 491 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:31,080 Speaker 1: and misogynistic behavior, and this includes sexual assault. Yeah, this 492 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:33,800 Speaker 1: is a part of the podcast that I was least 493 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:37,480 Speaker 1: looking forward to getting to because and it's I'm sure 494 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:41,440 Speaker 1: no surprise whatsoever to anyone listening, because it's talked about 495 00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:44,360 Speaker 1: so much now. I feel like any time we get 496 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,680 Speaker 1: to this time of year when there is pledging happening, 497 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:50,120 Speaker 1: you have the first big parties of the year on 498 00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:55,920 Speaker 1: college campuses, and almost inevitably there are sexual assault allegations 499 00:32:56,360 --> 00:33:01,760 Speaker 1: that come out um of of things happening, particularly at 500 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:05,760 Speaker 1: fraternity houses. And we are not trying to assert that 501 00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:09,959 Speaker 1: all fraternity members are simply, you know, just rapists in waiting, 502 00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:15,040 Speaker 1: but rather that it is issues of the fraternity culture 503 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 1: and environment and the way that activities at fraternity houses 504 00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:25,720 Speaker 1: sometimes and this is also not all fraternities obviously, but 505 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:32,440 Speaker 1: sometimes flout the rules of conduct that, like you said, 506 00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:37,560 Speaker 1: almost encourage these kinds of things to happen. Yeah, and 507 00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:40,800 Speaker 1: it's it's what we've mentioned. It's that active heterosexuality that 508 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:46,960 Speaker 1: almost like reactive masculinity about reacting to women, reacting to 509 00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:50,280 Speaker 1: gaze on campus and being like no, we are we 510 00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:53,160 Speaker 1: are other than that, we are different where men, you know, 511 00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:56,400 Speaker 1: we have to prove our masculinity somehow, And so then 512 00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:59,320 Speaker 1: that just includes when you're in a house full of dudes, 513 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:01,480 Speaker 1: not only you trying to prove that you're not gay 514 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:03,400 Speaker 1: because you live with a bunch of guys, but you're 515 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 1: trying to make all these sexual conquests to prove how 516 00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:08,160 Speaker 1: straight you are. Yeah, I mean, I think it's also 517 00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:12,040 Speaker 1: issues with the status and privilege that has conferred upon 518 00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:16,800 Speaker 1: fraternity members, because even still, I think at least in 519 00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:23,560 Speaker 1: the context of larger college campuses where fraternity guys in 520 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:25,959 Speaker 1: the same way with you know, women who are members 521 00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:28,680 Speaker 1: of sororities do tend to come from more privileged than 522 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:32,080 Speaker 1: affluent backgrounds. You know, they have enjoyed levels of socio 523 00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:34,759 Speaker 1: economic privilege for a while. And I think that that 524 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:41,440 Speaker 1: kind of combines with a fraternity atmosphere that um that 525 00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:46,880 Speaker 1: just again sort of sets up this dangerous environment. And 526 00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:50,600 Speaker 1: there are the study after study after study talks about 527 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:54,759 Speaker 1: this and what We'll get into those study findings in 528 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:58,880 Speaker 1: just a second. But I just remember being in college 529 00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:02,040 Speaker 1: and how any time a like Caroline and I both 530 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:07,360 Speaker 1: worked at our student newspaper, and almost any time a 531 00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:12,840 Speaker 1: young woman went to the campus police to specifically report 532 00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:16,360 Speaker 1: a rape that happened at a fraternity house, the immediate 533 00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:21,800 Speaker 1: response from the Greek community was to banned together and 534 00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:26,640 Speaker 1: blame her. And it was it was just so it 535 00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:30,759 Speaker 1: was always so disheartening and so toxic to see. Yeah, 536 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:33,359 Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's rape culture at work right there, 537 00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:35,360 Speaker 1: as far as blaming the victim for being in the 538 00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:38,200 Speaker 1: wrong place at the wrong time and not staying sober 539 00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:41,719 Speaker 1: enough or not staying vigilant enough, when really we should 540 00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:46,439 Speaker 1: be talking about not raping instead of not being raped. Yeah, 541 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:50,839 Speaker 1: so just for a few study findings, mean we could 542 00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:55,640 Speaker 1: go from all the way up into the two thousands. 543 00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:58,440 Speaker 1: There has been so much research done on this um. 544 00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:01,799 Speaker 1: One startling statistic found that between nineteen eighty and nine 545 00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:07,160 Speaker 1: nine frat members committed fifty cent of gang rapes reported 546 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:09,800 Speaker 1: on college campuses. There have also been a number of 547 00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:13,200 Speaker 1: study findings that fraternity members tend to have more rape 548 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:18,120 Speaker 1: supportive attitudes and tend to be more sexually coercive. Right, 549 00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:22,680 Speaker 1: and that ties in with nineteen study findings that fraternity 550 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:26,880 Speaker 1: men believe that are are more likely to believe that 551 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:30,160 Speaker 1: women enjoy being physically roughed up, they are more likely 552 00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:32,640 Speaker 1: to believe that women secretly want to be raped. And 553 00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:34,680 Speaker 1: for a more recent statistic, there is a two thousand 554 00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:37,680 Speaker 1: one report by the National Institute of Justice which found 555 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:41,320 Speaker 1: that about ten percent of sexual assaults reported on college 556 00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:47,200 Speaker 1: campuses take place in fraternity houses. Um so, and we 557 00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:51,680 Speaker 1: could honestly go on and on and on, and there 558 00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:55,480 Speaker 1: are now a lot of college administrators wondering, well, Okay, 559 00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:58,400 Speaker 1: should we just shut down the fraternity system. A lot 560 00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:03,080 Speaker 1: of times that seems like an impossible option because fraternitys, 561 00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:07,480 Speaker 1: even though they are not affiliated directly with uh the 562 00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:13,040 Speaker 1: universities or colleges, they are massively powerful in terms of 563 00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:15,680 Speaker 1: donor money. Well, what I found so interesting in Cyrate's 564 00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:17,960 Speaker 1: book was a discussion of those colleges, and they are 565 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:19,920 Speaker 1: a bunch of articles about this too, about colleges that 566 00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:23,200 Speaker 1: have banned fraternities and sororities, in the effect that that had, 567 00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:26,560 Speaker 1: and that the actual once the college made the decision 568 00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:30,680 Speaker 1: to do it, the actual um lashing out and an 569 00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:34,719 Speaker 1: anger that was expressed by these organizations was really kind 570 00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:39,680 Speaker 1: of relatively short lived. And they quoted former vice president 571 00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:42,920 Speaker 1: for development at Colby than Colby is a school that 572 00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:46,239 Speaker 1: got rid of the Greek system. He said, life is 573 00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:49,160 Speaker 1: much better. Women can go wherever they want to go. 574 00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:52,719 Speaker 1: The social life at Colby is much healthier than it 575 00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:54,399 Speaker 1: used to be. And I thought that was a really 576 00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:58,600 Speaker 1: interesting um note that he made. And when I read 577 00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:02,000 Speaker 1: the comments on that are article. Obviously I won't quote 578 00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:04,800 Speaker 1: them because some of them are rather ugly, but the 579 00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:08,239 Speaker 1: general feeling among them was, Hey, guys, live and let live. 580 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:10,759 Speaker 1: Why can't you let us have our fraternities and sororities 581 00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:12,480 Speaker 1: and then you go about doing whatever you want to do. 582 00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:14,560 Speaker 1: Nobody said you have to join them, Just let us 583 00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:17,919 Speaker 1: have our thing. And my reaction to that, my gut 584 00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:22,320 Speaker 1: reaction to that, was like, how how a lot of 585 00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:24,239 Speaker 1: these people are not being able to put themselves in 586 00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:27,680 Speaker 1: other people's shoes. The fact that oftentimes you have this 587 00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:32,320 Speaker 1: exclusionary lifestyle that's based on this active heterosexuality and this 588 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:35,400 Speaker 1: active masculinity, and that those people then go out and 589 00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:39,680 Speaker 1: end up in positions of power and society. Um, it 590 00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:43,520 Speaker 1: just made me think that it's so easy for a 591 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:47,239 Speaker 1: lot of times in any situation, not just talking about fraternities, 592 00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:49,160 Speaker 1: but how easy it is for guys to forget to 593 00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:51,600 Speaker 1: put themselves in the shoes of others, whether the other 594 00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:55,600 Speaker 1: is a woman, a gay person, a black person, or 595 00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:57,600 Speaker 1: maybe that they're just not willing to do that, And 596 00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:00,160 Speaker 1: so they these commenters were talking a lot about how 597 00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:05,520 Speaker 1: um their lifestyle was being affected. But when that lifestyle 598 00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:09,000 Speaker 1: centers on drinking, and that drinking can lead to violence, 599 00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:12,719 Speaker 1: and that violence can lead to sexual assault, I'm just wondering, like, 600 00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:17,240 Speaker 1: is the lifestyle worth having at the expense of your peers. 601 00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:20,239 Speaker 1: But I don't think that the solution is to just 602 00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:25,600 Speaker 1: shut down fraternities, because there are, at least again speaking 603 00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:29,200 Speaker 1: anecdotally in college, there were just as many women who 604 00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:34,960 Speaker 1: stood up for their fraternity brothers to sledge, shame and 605 00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:39,759 Speaker 1: victim blame women who would come forward. There is as much, 606 00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:43,640 Speaker 1: you know, problematic drinking that's also happening in other people's 607 00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:48,160 Speaker 1: houses and in other settings. It's almost though that fraternity 608 00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:54,719 Speaker 1: houses can become this incubator when allowed to. And I 609 00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:56,919 Speaker 1: just wonder what it is because it seems like there's 610 00:39:56,920 --> 00:39:59,640 Speaker 1: always in stories like this, there's always like a problematic 611 00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:03,919 Speaker 1: how it's not the entire Greek system, it's specifically one 612 00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:07,080 Speaker 1: house on campus, like the case there's this horrifying case 613 00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:12,360 Speaker 1: at Wesleyan where there was this one off campus fraternity 614 00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:16,279 Speaker 1: house it wasn't even sanctioned by the school where there 615 00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:20,040 Speaker 1: were two separate incidents of sexual assaults being reported, and 616 00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:22,839 Speaker 1: there was something about that house and what was going 617 00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:26,640 Speaker 1: on in there, and it's like you have to it's 618 00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:29,440 Speaker 1: deeper and feel like this issue is so much deeper 619 00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:35,239 Speaker 1: than just burning Kappa Alpha to the ground, but rather 620 00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:40,200 Speaker 1: looking at what is going on in those problem houses 621 00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:44,560 Speaker 1: because I just don't it's not I don't know. I 622 00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:46,680 Speaker 1: feel like it's almost too easy to say we'll just 623 00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:50,040 Speaker 1: shut everything down because we're eighteen years old and we're 624 00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:52,600 Speaker 1: going to find a way to like get together and 625 00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:58,160 Speaker 1: revolt against authority and drink. We've been doing it since seventeen. Yes, 626 00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:02,839 Speaker 1: and they will continue to in general, kids kid well, 627 00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:05,680 Speaker 1: will continue to to be riff raff and drink and 628 00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:08,960 Speaker 1: be responsible about certain things. But the fact is so 629 00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:13,080 Speaker 1: many of these college presidents or vps of administration, etcetera, etcetera, 630 00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:17,279 Speaker 1: and and women that were interviewed in these articles were 631 00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:19,560 Speaker 1: like you would not believe, how better, how much better 632 00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:22,320 Speaker 1: the culture is on campus the overall culture, not just 633 00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:26,279 Speaker 1: talking about sexual harassment or anything like that. You're a woman, 634 00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:28,560 Speaker 1: you can't even walk past this house because you'll get 635 00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:30,960 Speaker 1: cat called and have obscene things screamed to you. But 636 00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:35,719 Speaker 1: just an overall culture that is maybe more one of 637 00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:41,480 Speaker 1: acceptance overall. Once the Greek system is either marginalized and 638 00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:44,719 Speaker 1: minimized or done away with, well, and it's I mean, 639 00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:50,200 Speaker 1: it's unfortunate too, because there are upsides, as we've mentioned, 640 00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:54,360 Speaker 1: to Greek affiliations. I mean, Greek affiliated students tend to 641 00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:57,560 Speaker 1: have higher graduation rates. They tend to be generous donors, 642 00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:01,839 Speaker 1: which can then possibly improve school. Um, you know, they 643 00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:08,240 Speaker 1: it is a powerful network professionally for not just fraternity 644 00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:13,040 Speaker 1: members but also sorority members. Um. And I mean, I 645 00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:17,080 Speaker 1: just I'm really curious to hear from people listening who 646 00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:20,920 Speaker 1: have been in fraternities and or sororities on this, because 647 00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:24,320 Speaker 1: I feel like anytime this comes up, there's always a 648 00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:27,480 Speaker 1: counter argument of that's just a couple of you know, 649 00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:31,239 Speaker 1: rotten apples in the barrel. We can't there there were 650 00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:33,920 Speaker 1: so many there's so many good things about this the 651 00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:37,960 Speaker 1: outweigh the bad things. So I wonder from an inside 652 00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:41,680 Speaker 1: perspective then, because neither you or I were in a sorority, 653 00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:45,399 Speaker 1: nor were we in a fraternity. I was, although well 654 00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:47,440 Speaker 1: you were in a co ed honor fraternity, not the 655 00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:51,320 Speaker 1: same thing. Although I have been, I've been in fraternity houses. 656 00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:55,520 Speaker 1: I was in fraternity houses in my college career, And 657 00:42:57,200 --> 00:42:59,399 Speaker 1: I would like to know from an inside perspective, how 658 00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:02,480 Speaker 1: do you how do you leverage those two things? And 659 00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:05,520 Speaker 1: because it can't, the excuse of just it's a couple 660 00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:10,400 Speaker 1: of bad apples isn't flying anymore. It's like, no, really, 661 00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:14,400 Speaker 1: how how do you could? I mean, do you just 662 00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:17,040 Speaker 1: continue to make excuses for it? Or can you acknowledge 663 00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:21,920 Speaker 1: the fact that something happens, something goes terribly wrong in 664 00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:25,680 Speaker 1: certain houses sometimes and it continues to And why why 665 00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:30,359 Speaker 1: isn't it stopped? Why aren't there better examples? Why aren't 666 00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:34,319 Speaker 1: guys stopping other guys from this kind of behavior? Yeah, 667 00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:36,239 Speaker 1: it's like the whole the whole discussion that you and 668 00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:39,800 Speaker 1: I have talked about before of saying boys will be boys, 669 00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:44,919 Speaker 1: but on a massive scale, massive nationwide, college wide scale. Yeah, yeah, 670 00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:49,279 Speaker 1: I mean it's definitely it certainly ties in with drinking. Um, 671 00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:52,239 Speaker 1: it's a tough one. It is a tough one. Yeah. 672 00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:54,600 Speaker 1: I mean, my my brother and my father and so 673 00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:59,000 Speaker 1: many men and my family before them were in fraternities 674 00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:02,440 Speaker 1: and really really loved the experience. But I have a 675 00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:05,560 Speaker 1: feeling that my brother at the University of Georgia in 676 00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:08,960 Speaker 1: a fraternity had a different experience than my great great 677 00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:12,440 Speaker 1: great great uncle at Dartmouth. Yeah, well, he was probably 678 00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:15,120 Speaker 1: not writing by candle light. And um my, yeah, And 679 00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:18,520 Speaker 1: and my great uncle George had a mustache. Fancy mustache. 680 00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:22,160 Speaker 1: I want to see that mustache. He's yes, snapping, smashing 681 00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:24,960 Speaker 1: young men. Well, at this point, we want to turn 682 00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:27,040 Speaker 1: it over to you listeners. We really want to hear 683 00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:29,960 Speaker 1: from you on this issue because it's something that is 684 00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:32,359 Speaker 1: talked about so often in the media. It is an 685 00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:35,839 Speaker 1: issue that by no means is going away anytime soon. 686 00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:39,080 Speaker 1: And absolutely if you're a college student or if you 687 00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:43,120 Speaker 1: are an alumnus of a Greek organization, we especially want 688 00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:46,080 Speaker 1: to hear from you on this. Mom Stuff at how 689 00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:47,880 Speaker 1: stuff works dot com is where you can send us 690 00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:50,640 Speaker 1: your letters. You can also message us on Facebook or 691 00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:53,040 Speaker 1: tweet us at mom Stuff podcast, and we have a 692 00:44:53,120 --> 00:45:00,399 Speaker 1: couple of messages to share with you right now. Well, 693 00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:03,160 Speaker 1: I have a letter here from Peter in response to 694 00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:08,000 Speaker 1: our Women in Tennis episode during which we discussed the 695 00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:13,520 Speaker 1: issue of grunting, to which Peter says no. He says, 696 00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:16,359 Speaker 1: speaking as a fan and a player, grunting by either 697 00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:19,720 Speaker 1: sex is just plain annoying and distracting. I would totally 698 00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:22,200 Speaker 1: be in favor of a loosely enforced, outright ban on 699 00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:27,000 Speaker 1: continuous rally grunting my terminology nothing official. I understand that 700 00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:29,840 Speaker 1: here and there people let one fly after a long rally, 701 00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:32,640 Speaker 1: a big stretch shot out of frustration, but it is 702 00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:36,000 Speaker 1: completely unnecessary to grunt over and over and over after 703 00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:38,160 Speaker 1: all shots. That was in all caps. By the way, 704 00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:43,239 Speaker 1: Get two grunters together and O MG, you might say 705 00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:46,719 Speaker 1: you did. Who cares well? I do. If I turn 706 00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:48,720 Speaker 1: a match on TV and I hear too much grunting, 707 00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:51,560 Speaker 1: I turn it off. It distracts me from everything I enjoy, 708 00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:55,360 Speaker 1: from the fast footwork and positioning to that beautiful ball placement. 709 00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:58,360 Speaker 1: Generally speaking, it is the ladies who grunt more in 710 00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:00,799 Speaker 1: my watching as are is all. I tend to watch 711 00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:03,319 Speaker 1: more men's tennis. If you would like, I could now 712 00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:06,560 Speaker 1: do my impersonation of a sellus Sabbatini match circle ninety three. 713 00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:09,400 Speaker 1: It is the first instance of incessant grunting I recall, 714 00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:12,880 Speaker 1: and it is burned into my mind. I am all 715 00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:16,480 Speaker 1: for women playing five sets, equal paychecks for both sexes, 716 00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:20,760 Speaker 1: and for all men, women, transgender people, exceptionally skilled chimps 717 00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:26,160 Speaker 1: with rackets. Everyone to chill out on the grunting, all right, 718 00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:29,759 Speaker 1: So I'll tell you really feel Peter. Peter not a 719 00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:31,799 Speaker 1: fan of the grunting, so thank you for that letter. 720 00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:37,000 Speaker 1: I still think grunting helps me on the court. And 721 00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:40,320 Speaker 1: if you ever see a game of chimpanzees playing tennis, 722 00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:43,439 Speaker 1: let me know, because I need to see that they're 723 00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:46,120 Speaker 1: probably more coordinated than I am. Well, I have a 724 00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:49,120 Speaker 1: letter here from Megan, and it is a podcast topic 725 00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:53,280 Speaker 1: request that I wanted to read to the Sminty community 726 00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:55,279 Speaker 1: at large to see if you all would like to 727 00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:59,520 Speaker 1: hear this podcast. She writes, amidst all this hubbub about 728 00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:03,200 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court decision on Monday. She's referring to the 729 00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:09,520 Speaker 1: hobby lobby birth control court case. She says, I got 730 00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:12,360 Speaker 1: a chance to read some of Ruth Bader Ginsburg's response 731 00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:14,000 Speaker 1: to it, and it struck me that I'm pretty sure 732 00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:16,800 Speaker 1: you've never done a podcast about her. You are correct, Megan, 733 00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:19,080 Speaker 1: I think there's a lot to say about her, So 734 00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:23,360 Speaker 1: here I am requesting it. So, folks, would you like 735 00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:28,080 Speaker 1: to hear an episode on the notorious RBG Let us 736 00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:30,040 Speaker 1: know you can. You can just tweet us or something 737 00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:32,400 Speaker 1: mom at mom Stuff podcast for that one, just just 738 00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:34,880 Speaker 1: shoot a Slottle note. And if folks want to hear 739 00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:39,399 Speaker 1: about Ruth Bader Ginsburg, then by all means we will 740 00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:42,440 Speaker 1: talk about her. And if you have podcasts request to 741 00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:46,680 Speaker 1: send our way or have feedback on fraternities and sororities 742 00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:49,760 Speaker 1: and all that jazz, you can email us mom Stuff 743 00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:52,800 Speaker 1: at how stuff works dot com is where your letters 744 00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:55,200 Speaker 1: can go. You can also tweet us again at mom 745 00:47:55,239 --> 00:47:58,560 Speaker 1: stuff podcast or messages on Facebook and for links to 746 00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:02,040 Speaker 1: all of our social media as well as podcasts which 747 00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:06,520 Speaker 1: include our sources so you can follow along. And for 748 00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:08,920 Speaker 1: all of our blogs and videos, there's one place to go, 749 00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:15,719 Speaker 1: and it's stuff Mom Never Told You dot com. For 750 00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:18,160 Speaker 1: more on this and thousands of other topics, is that 751 00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:19,359 Speaker 1: how stuff Works dot com