1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,079 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:25,760 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show. 5 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:28,600 Speaker 1: My name is Matt Our. Co host Noel is on 6 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:32,200 Speaker 1: an adventure. They call me Ben. We're joined as always 7 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:36,360 Speaker 1: with our super producer Paul Mission Control decond. Most importantly, 8 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:39,239 Speaker 1: you are you. You are here, and that makes this 9 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:43,280 Speaker 1: the stuff they don't want you to know. Uh, Matt, 10 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:47,640 Speaker 1: this one is for our fellow film buffs in the crowd, 11 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:51,199 Speaker 1: and it's something you and I have talked about in 12 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:53,240 Speaker 1: the past. We talked about it with Mission Control a 13 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:57,680 Speaker 1: little bit off air. UM. I hope this isn't revealing 14 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:01,960 Speaker 1: too much, but as long time listeners know you yourself 15 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 1: as well as Paul have backgrounds in the world of film. 16 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 1: How I got my college degree shooting some video for 17 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 1: a couple of professors. Yeah, when you get a degree 18 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:17,680 Speaker 1: like that, at least here in Georgia Georgia State University, 19 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:21,040 Speaker 1: check it out. Um. You do a lot of film history, 20 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:25,319 Speaker 1: a lot of just studying film, analyzing film, Uh, understanding 21 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:28,279 Speaker 1: how it's made and why it's made that way, And 22 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 1: this topic that we're covering today is not something that 23 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 1: was in the curriculum in two thousand three four. Yeah, yeah, 24 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:41,200 Speaker 1: and it's but it's something that was in the cards. 25 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:45,840 Speaker 1: It just hadn't reached this point of uh, conspiracy, I 26 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:49,640 Speaker 1: would argue. So, if you, like us, are film buffs, 27 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 1: then you've probably heard about a growing phenomenon in the 28 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:58,320 Speaker 1: world of cinema film now despite covid is going international 29 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 1: like never before for at a at a continually accelerating pace. 30 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 1: And also if you have been a fellow conspiracy realist 31 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:11,040 Speaker 1: for for a good amount of time, you're probably, I 32 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:15,079 Speaker 1: would guess, concerned about the dangers of censorship. And we're 33 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 1: reaching a paradox point here, fellow cinophiles, as films of 34 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:25,120 Speaker 1: every genre and level, from blockbuster movies to independent critics Darling's, 35 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 1: as they spread across this planet like never before, they're 36 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 1: also being actively censored in a way that has not 37 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:36,240 Speaker 1: ever occurred on this scale. They're being kept from the 38 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:41,520 Speaker 1: largest single viewing public in the entirety of human history. 39 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:46,120 Speaker 1: No coffeats, no asterix. That's what's happening today. We're traveling 40 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:51,959 Speaker 1: to China, so here are the facts first. First things first, 41 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:55,680 Speaker 1: whenever we do episodes like these like the Great Firewall, 42 00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:59,920 Speaker 1: which we did earlier, and stories about the weaker population 43 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:05,120 Speaker 1: western China, we always, uh, Matt and me and sometimes 44 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:08,240 Speaker 1: Paul talk about whether or not we're going to be 45 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 1: able to get through customs in mainland PRC. But you know, 46 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 1: sometimes we're joking, sometimes we're not joking, but it's it's 47 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 1: it is an important question because China is huge by 48 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:27,639 Speaker 1: any metric, China is huge. When we talk about population, 49 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:30,680 Speaker 1: China is the biggest dog on the block. Uh. In 50 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:34,359 Speaker 1: our one of our previous episodes, we quoted the population 51 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:38,120 Speaker 1: at one point three billion. Now just a few years later, 52 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:43,280 Speaker 1: it's home to one point four zero to billion people. 53 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 1: And a lot of those folks are just like us. 54 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 1: They love movies. M Yeah, especially American movies. When it 55 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 1: comes to American culture, just there's a cashe it's I 56 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 1: think has something to do with the freedom that we 57 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:02,920 Speaker 1: have historically enjoyed here, right. Uh, you could do anything 58 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 1: in America, and when you're watching a movie that's based 59 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 1: in America or is American made, there's that same kind 60 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 1: of anything could happen, but excitement, I would say that 61 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 1: exists there, and culture has been one of America's biggest 62 00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:20,800 Speaker 1: exports since films have been a thing, and then good god, 63 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 1: television comes along. That's a whole other thing. Really, any 64 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:28,159 Speaker 1: American media, we just export that stuff, and we're good 65 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:31,360 Speaker 1: at at putting little bits of propaganda in there, as 66 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 1: you know. Yes, yeah, there is a valid argument to 67 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 1: be made. And I ruffle feathers when I say this sometimes, 68 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 1: but ever since the post World War two economic boom, 69 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:45,840 Speaker 1: two of the most powerful exports of the United States 70 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:51,679 Speaker 1: have been culture and war, and they both have done 71 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:56,160 Speaker 1: a lot for the US at the expense of others. 72 00:04:56,200 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 1: So yeah, there's power in this. All culture presented to 73 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 1: an unfamiliar audience is inherently propagandistic. Right, It's like a 74 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:10,279 Speaker 1: it's like a macro version of a person. Social media, 75 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:14,560 Speaker 1: countries and cultures show you what they want you to see, right, 76 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 1: And this this is uh, this is strange because the 77 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:24,159 Speaker 1: effect has been huge. But again it's it's fairly and 78 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:27,560 Speaker 1: the long span of things, it's it's fairly recent, and 79 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:30,040 Speaker 1: in the case of US films in China, it's even 80 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 1: more of a recent thing. China didn't really open up 81 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 1: officially two American films until around n Warner Brothers, through 82 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 1: a series of like nepotistic negotiations, was able to air 83 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:50,719 Speaker 1: a film called The Fugitive in China and it did. Yeah, yeah, 84 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:55,279 Speaker 1: I liked it. It did pretty well. Uh. Old WB 85 00:05:55,520 --> 00:06:00,320 Speaker 1: made about three million dollars US and that is not 86 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:03,800 Speaker 1: big money to them in but it is considered a 87 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:09,160 Speaker 1: good sign for the future. And then just three years later, 88 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:17,240 Speaker 1: about three years later, Hollywood immediately screws up hard, at 89 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:23,280 Speaker 1: least in China's perspective. Yeah, the two movies Kundoon k 90 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:27,160 Speaker 1: U N d U N and a little thing called 91 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:31,360 Speaker 1: Seven Years in Tibet with Old Brad Pitt, two films 92 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 1: that were let's say, not appreciated. Uh. And it has 93 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:41,480 Speaker 1: to do with the way the film's portrayed Tibet and 94 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 1: stuff going on in Tibet. And we've talked about this 95 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:47,119 Speaker 1: before on the show. Uh, well, you know, we haven't 96 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:50,120 Speaker 1: really gone into full detail. I don't think ben on 97 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:56,039 Speaker 1: the complications that exist into Beet versus China, um and 98 00:06:56,160 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 1: just historically what's been going on. But yeah, these movie 99 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 1: they did not take keenly to know and for people 100 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:09,600 Speaker 1: familiar with that situation, the official perception of the Chinese 101 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:13,239 Speaker 1: government for that sentence he just said about tibetan China. 102 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:16,280 Speaker 1: For them, it would be like saying, you know what 103 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 1: about that situation between Wyoming and the United States. Like, 104 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 1: the Chinese position is very much that, Uh, Tibet is 105 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 1: an autonomous region, but very much part of my mainland China. 106 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 1: To say otherwise is anathema. The same applies to Taiwan, 107 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:39,040 Speaker 1: which we'll get to in a moment. Uh. This is 108 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:43,240 Speaker 1: this is just to be clear Chinese censorship boards. This 109 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 1: is not us saying saying any stance of our own there. 110 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 1: This is just the reality of the situation. That's just 111 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 1: one China policy. Full stuff. That's what it's called. That 112 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 1: is what it's called. So at first, the studios didn't 113 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 1: think this would the biggest deal ever. They didn't have 114 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 1: geopolitical considerations in mind when they were making these films. 115 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:11,200 Speaker 1: They just thought they were good stories. They knew that 116 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 1: market and population trends indicated China could one day be 117 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:21,920 Speaker 1: a big source of revenue for for cinema, but not 118 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 1: quite yet, And they said they sort of thought, you know, 119 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 1: it's not like we're going to make a bunch of 120 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:31,600 Speaker 1: money there right now. Anyhow, Uh, this is sumption, Yeah, 121 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:35,720 Speaker 1: this is sumption would overtime prove incorrect? As of just 122 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:41,360 Speaker 1: China became officially the largest film market on the planet, 123 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:44,720 Speaker 1: and a big part of that growth was the pandemic. 124 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:48,200 Speaker 1: There were a couple of different factors here that moved 125 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 1: the timeline, so before the pandemic fully got into swing. 126 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:56,640 Speaker 1: There's a resource firm called Ampere Analysis a mp E 127 00:08:56,920 --> 00:08:58,920 Speaker 1: r E if you want to look it up. They 128 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:04,079 Speaker 1: projected China film market, uh would overtake, would overlap and 129 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:09,160 Speaker 1: overshadow the US film market by two uh this year, 130 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:13,960 Speaker 1: and now it expects China will remain the number one 131 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:16,640 Speaker 1: market in the world four films and this kind of 132 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 1: media indefinitely because of the population and because the US 133 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:26,280 Speaker 1: theatrical market, the market for actual films and movies is 134 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 1: declining and it's attempting to recover from the pandemic and 135 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 1: losing the ability to physically go to the movie theater. 136 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 1: But we'll see. I mean, that's gonna be one of 137 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:38,120 Speaker 1: those things. Maybe there's gonna be a crazy resurgence in 138 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:40,240 Speaker 1: people going back to the movies. I know, I've done 139 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:42,960 Speaker 1: it a couple of times. Uh, but not the way 140 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 1: I used to. Yeah, and a lot of people had 141 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 1: similar experiences. The thing is, they're there several intervening variables here. Right. 142 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:58,600 Speaker 1: The country of China as as a film market is 143 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:01,800 Speaker 1: probably going to be making around thirteen point seven billion 144 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 1: a year in and the US will be a little 145 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 1: under eight billion. These are still billions. There's still a 146 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:12,440 Speaker 1: lot of money at play, more so than you know, 147 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:16,079 Speaker 1: most of most human brains can I would say all 148 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 1: human brains can adequately comprehend. Just think about the numbers 149 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:22,839 Speaker 1: you may have heard in the news. These have been 150 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:26,560 Speaker 1: international news stories, the amount of money that some of 151 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:29,080 Speaker 1: the large Marvel movies have been raking in some of 152 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:34,320 Speaker 1: the other large franchises. We're talking like Jurassic World. We're 153 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 1: talking profits in the billions now, not the millions. Uh. 154 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 1: Movie that was a smash hit would make several hundred million, Uh, 155 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 1: not that long ago, and now a billion at least 156 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:49,960 Speaker 1: a billion is almost a benchmark now for some of 157 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:55,560 Speaker 1: these major movies that get worldwide distribution exactly. And there 158 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 1: are other intervening variables at play. Like first, yes, we 159 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:03,440 Speaker 1: mentioned COVID. It it hit both countries very hard on 160 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 1: multiple levels. And uh, and China has been doing some 161 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 1: pretty extreme things to tamp down COVID, especially in urban populations. 162 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 1: Their theaters were not unscathed either. China had seventy thousand 163 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 1: theaters that were shut down for months. All the theaters 164 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 1: in the US were shut down for a while. But 165 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:28,720 Speaker 1: to your point, Matt, China seems to have bounced back 166 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 1: faster and now Hollywood, that's just I'm using potatomy here. 167 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:39,960 Speaker 1: I'm just saying Hollywood to indicate all film production in 168 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 1: the US wherever it's based. It's hoping that these huge 169 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:48,959 Speaker 1: films they spend a lot of money on can help 170 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 1: them recover those lost profits with the help of Chinese audiences. 171 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:57,600 Speaker 1: But there's another factor. They're going to face a lot 172 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:01,959 Speaker 1: of local competition. The govern a mint of China recognizes 173 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:06,400 Speaker 1: the power of culture and information wars and propaganda, so 174 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:09,439 Speaker 1: they want to bring their own voice, their own narrative 175 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:13,679 Speaker 1: and perception to the globe. And that's why more and 176 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 1: more of China's box office hits are local productions, domestically 177 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:24,959 Speaker 1: filmed and created nowadays, and this only accelerated during COVID, 178 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:29,120 Speaker 1: when there were many there were far fewer Hollywood films 179 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:33,680 Speaker 1: being released just overall, and this is yeah, this is 180 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 1: part of a larger plan. We're not even to the 181 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 1: crazy part yet. These are just the facts. We got 182 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:44,839 Speaker 1: to introduce this journalist that I'm quite impressed with named 183 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:49,560 Speaker 1: Eric Schwartzel. He is the author of a book called 184 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 1: Red Carpet, Hollywood, China and the Global Battle for Cultural Supremacy. 185 00:12:54,720 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 1: Get it red Carpet? Uh? I see you? So he's yeah, 186 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:06,079 Speaker 1: and that book. Based on that book, he wrote an 187 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:08,920 Speaker 1: article or several articles, I think for The Atlantic that 188 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 1: we're using as research for this. Yes, yeah, absolutely, so 189 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:17,000 Speaker 1: shout out to Eric Schwartzel. Uh. He's saying in his book. 190 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 1: One of the things that we just highlighted. He said 191 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:24,320 Speaker 1: his belief is that the government of China has watched 192 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:31,439 Speaker 1: the machine of Hollywood, you know, basically sell America as 193 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:35,319 Speaker 1: a concept to the globe, and now that government wants 194 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 1: to do the same. They want to leverage that power 195 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 1: of propaganda to continue expanding their presence on the international stage. 196 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:46,560 Speaker 1: And we pulled a couple of quotes from him, especially 197 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:53,000 Speaker 1: the ones that I think are striking because of their certitude. 198 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 1: So he says, quote, it comes to the point where 199 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:57,720 Speaker 1: even on some of the biggest films that make tons 200 00:13:57,760 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 1: of money around the world, like a Fast and Furious 201 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:03,280 Speaker 1: Home or a Marvel super Heroes movie. Getting into China 202 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 1: and making money there can mean the difference between profit 203 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 1: and loss. Yeah. Yeah, when you fund your movie for 204 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:14,560 Speaker 1: several hundred million dollars because you packed it full of 205 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:17,080 Speaker 1: some of the biggest stars that exist on the planet 206 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 1: right now, and every scene has the most insane special 207 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:23,880 Speaker 1: effects you've ever seen, and it looks amazing and you 208 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:26,600 Speaker 1: feel great when you watch it. Uh, it's still costs 209 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 1: several hundred million dollars. So if you if you don't 210 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 1: get you know, an extra one point, let's just say, 211 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 1: an extra six hundred million people to watch it, or 212 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 1: even you know, three hundred million people in the population 213 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 1: of China watching it, that's still going to make up 214 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 1: for uh, that potential between profit and loss. Man three. 215 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 1: I mean think about it. If you just get three 216 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 1: hundred and forty million people watching it in China, then 217 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:55,960 Speaker 1: you have you have done the equivalent of getting every 218 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 1: single person in the United States to watch it. Like 219 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 1: it's numbers game. And you know, the stories may be fictional, 220 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:08,360 Speaker 1: but those budgets are real. So this is uh, this 221 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 1: is a big, big deal, and this means that Hollywood 222 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 1: is increasingly dependent upon getting airtime in China. It's no 223 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 1: longer a nice thing that can help an executives year 224 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:27,640 Speaker 1: in bonus, it's the way the company may survive. And 225 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:31,520 Speaker 1: too many people, you know, and I see the validity 226 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:34,240 Speaker 1: and this too many people. The argument is that's just 227 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:37,880 Speaker 1: business as usual. You know, you go where your customers are. 228 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:40,840 Speaker 1: But unfortunately that's only part of the game. There's a 229 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 1: complicating factor here. You can't, for instance, just go crack 230 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 1: some international distribution deal and get stuff they don't want 231 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 1: you to know, the movie playing in theaters across Shanghai 232 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 1: and Beijing. Instead, you have to go to the ultimate 233 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 1: arbiters of your film in that country, China's government censorship regime. 234 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 1: You have to gain from them the privilege of traversing 235 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:11,720 Speaker 1: the great firewall of this information war. And this is 236 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 1: where the troubles begin. You're gonna pause for a word 237 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 1: from our sponsor. Maybe it's something from the Chinese Tourism Board, 238 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 1: and then we'll tell you more. Here's where it gets crazy. 239 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:32,720 Speaker 1: All right, China is home to the largest film market 240 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:35,760 Speaker 1: on the planet, but not just that. It's also home 241 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 1: to the largest censorship regime on the planet, at least 242 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 1: one of the largest censorship regimes. I think it is 243 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 1: the largest. Now it's certainly the most sophisticated. Like it 244 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 1: is scary good. Maybe we should talk a little bit 245 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:54,800 Speaker 1: about that before we get straight to the film. Oh yeah, 246 00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 1: there's a political scientist named Gary King who decided to 247 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:01,600 Speaker 1: dig deep into this thing. Uh. He looked at Chinese 248 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 1: state censorship with two landmark studies where he was looking 249 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:09,199 Speaker 1: at social media, and he concluded that China is the 250 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 1: quote most extensive effort to selectively censor human expression ever implemented. WHOA, 251 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:23,480 Speaker 1: that's strong, strong words there, Gary, But it does seem 252 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 1: to be that, at least with some of the stuff 253 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:28,040 Speaker 1: we've been looking at this week. There really are internet police. 254 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:31,560 Speaker 1: We joke about it sometimes as being a thing, you know, 255 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:34,000 Speaker 1: that was such a running gag for a while here 256 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:36,920 Speaker 1: in the early two thousands when we're having conversations been 257 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:41,080 Speaker 1: but the Internet police in China it's a real thing. 258 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:47,199 Speaker 1: We're talking about fifty thousand people potentially, or roughly, let's say, 259 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:50,200 Speaker 1: oh yeah, yeah, and it's not just them, they're working 260 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:54,600 Speaker 1: with other Communist Party members who hundreds of thousands strong, 261 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:58,199 Speaker 1: potentially three hundred thousands strong, and that's not counting the 262 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:02,320 Speaker 1: employees that then pry bit companies employee to also do 263 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 1: this kind of thing, because private companies have to employ 264 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:08,720 Speaker 1: certain people to keep tabs on what the company is doing, 265 00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:13,000 Speaker 1: and basically they're the go betweens between the company and 266 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 1: the sensors. It's crazy to think about. Yeah, it's a 267 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:20,760 Speaker 1: huge network. It is a vast, vast enterprise. And I 268 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 1: want to give a special shout out to just by 269 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 1: personal contacts on the Chinese mainland and in Taiwan, as 270 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:31,000 Speaker 1: well as our fellow conspiracy realists who are either Chinese 271 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:34,600 Speaker 1: nationals or based in the country. As we speak, you 272 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:40,479 Speaker 1: won't hear this episode, well not officially, but you know, 273 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:45,280 Speaker 1: you might have a very private network that helps you 274 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 1: tune in a vary networks. So yeah, so are maybe 275 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:57,160 Speaker 1: anyhow the this this is true and there are two 276 00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:01,920 Speaker 1: points that stand out in Gary King's research. First, he said, 277 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:08,400 Speaker 1: the infrastructure of this censorship regime is astonishingly effective. This 278 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:13,280 Speaker 1: means that if if for instance, um Paul and Matt 279 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:17,680 Speaker 1: are talking about something that might be you know, put 280 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 1: a bad taste in the censor's mouth and they post 281 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 1: about it on social media. Okay, Yeah, let's say let's 282 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 1: say we're talking about this special little meeting and training 283 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:32,760 Speaker 1: that occurred in two thousand and eight when a large 284 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 1: group of film students and aspiring social media yeah, I guess, 285 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:42,200 Speaker 1: I guess their celebrities in China. They came over and 286 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:47,240 Speaker 1: they got first hand training from the United States Hollywood 287 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:52,159 Speaker 1: film industry on how to export culture and how to 288 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:56,199 Speaker 1: build stories that focus on that and export it to 289 00:19:56,240 --> 00:20:00,439 Speaker 1: other places. And if that were objectional, that left at 290 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:03,359 Speaker 1: bad taste in the sensor's mouth, then what you would find, 291 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:07,680 Speaker 1: just as King and his team found, is that those 292 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:15,639 Speaker 1: posts that are objectionable have a plus percent chance of 293 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:23,480 Speaker 1: being removed completely within twenty four hours. So there is 294 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 1: a great eye on one point for zero to billion 295 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:32,560 Speaker 1: people and anything they might post. But there's a little 296 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 1: a little bit of good news because the same this 297 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:39,199 Speaker 1: first study that it found that the government appears to 298 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:42,960 Speaker 1: give people a little bit of wiggle room with online descent, 299 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:45,520 Speaker 1: would talk in some trash you got, you got a 300 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:47,840 Speaker 1: little bit of wiggle room there, maybe everybody has a 301 00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:51,040 Speaker 1: bad day, etcetera. What they really cracked down on is 302 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:57,360 Speaker 1: stuff you're describing organization, movements, collective action. It depends on 303 00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:00,040 Speaker 1: where we were talking about that and how open of 304 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:02,000 Speaker 1: a discussion we were having. Were we trying to get 305 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 1: other people to talk with us, were they talking with us, 306 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:08,200 Speaker 1: were they sharing? Yeah, then it becomes a real issue 307 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:11,680 Speaker 1: because we've talked about there are penalties, real legal penalties 308 00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:14,159 Speaker 1: for doing things. And I can't remember the phrase off 309 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:16,440 Speaker 1: the time my head been, but it's like rabble rousing. 310 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:19,200 Speaker 1: It's like an actual sense that you can get jail 311 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:22,160 Speaker 1: time for. I think that's right. I think the translation 312 00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 1: is rabble rousing. So you keep your rabble sedated folks. Yeah. 313 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:31,480 Speaker 1: And in one of these Atlantic articles exploring King's work, 314 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:35,959 Speaker 1: we find in an interview about these studies that he 315 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:41,200 Speaker 1: believes there are two reasons for the latitude a little 316 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 1: bit of wiggle room with not being a happy He says, first, 317 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:49,879 Speaker 1: if you allow some criticism, it's kind of like an 318 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:53,160 Speaker 1: escape hatch, right, It lets off some steam and it 319 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 1: keeps that descent from growing more violent. People feel like 320 00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:01,280 Speaker 1: they are somehow satiated by being able to just get 321 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:06,400 Speaker 1: it out. And then second, this lediacy is also helpful 322 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:11,639 Speaker 1: to those in power because then you can figure out 323 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:16,400 Speaker 1: what more than one person has a problem with, right, 324 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:21,960 Speaker 1: so you can it's a common card Yes, yeah, that's true. 325 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:24,400 Speaker 1: The Internet as a common card box and people are 326 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 1: reading what you write, so be very careful in that regard. Like, um, 327 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 1: it reminds me of the old joke on forums like 328 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:37,399 Speaker 1: read it you will. Obviously, I keep eyes on a 329 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:41,240 Speaker 1: lot of conspiratorial and fringe related forums, and one of 330 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:44,560 Speaker 1: the things that always cracks me up is the metic 331 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:48,879 Speaker 1: conspiracy that every time someone comes up in a forum 332 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:51,840 Speaker 1: and says, hey, what are some conspiracy theories you think 333 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 1: are true? Uh, the ideas that they are being posted 334 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:58,119 Speaker 1: by the FBI or some of the alphabet boys just 335 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 1: to figure it out. I don't know if that's true. 336 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:02,320 Speaker 1: Do you love it? I hope it is. Do you 337 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 1: know how many times we've made posts like that? Oh? Man, yeah, no, 338 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:12,919 Speaker 1: it's true. Well this okay, So we're saying this is 339 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:18,000 Speaker 1: a powerful thing. It is real. It is ideologically objection 340 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:22,359 Speaker 1: able to some people, but for the government in power 341 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:30,200 Speaker 1: and China now the PRCUH, the idea is ideologically necessary. 342 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:34,000 Speaker 1: This is seen as a preservation move for the stability 343 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:37,040 Speaker 1: of the country as it stands and it applies to 344 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:40,119 Speaker 1: film as well. We've got to introduce you to something 345 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:46,480 Speaker 1: called SARFT, the State Administration of Radio, Film and Television. SARFT, 346 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 1: despite sounding like uh distant cousin of of the Noid, 347 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:57,000 Speaker 1: is actually super powerful and pretty orwellian. They control the 348 00:23:57,080 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 1: content of all media cast in China, film, TV, radio, 349 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:09,680 Speaker 1: the Internet, satellite, since all the films that would one 350 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:15,000 Speaker 1: day be shown in China, domestic or foreign, are first 351 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:18,680 Speaker 1: evaluated by this thing called the c f A or 352 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 1: China Film Administration. At the time, a lot of the 353 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:26,920 Speaker 1: numbers I saw said the staff was somewhat small. We're 354 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:30,399 Speaker 1: talking about thirty people. They've got a bunch of different backgrounds. 355 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:33,040 Speaker 1: Some of them are, you know, from the film industry, 356 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:36,560 Speaker 1: some are from the Communist Youth League, the Women's Federation 357 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 1: sort of. The rest are kind of a charkoutrie of 358 00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:44,600 Speaker 1: government departments or people from government departments, and they have 359 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 1: various areas of expertise and authority that they focus on. 360 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:53,200 Speaker 1: There is a pretty small group that handles international co productions, 361 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:56,240 Speaker 1: just like three or four people. Why are we guessing 362 00:24:56,280 --> 00:25:01,200 Speaker 1: at this, Well, the inner workings of SARFT are kind 363 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,400 Speaker 1: of a black box. In many ways they're highly secret, 364 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:07,520 Speaker 1: which has got to be in the past that had 365 00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:11,879 Speaker 1: to be super annoying to American filmmakers. There's lots you 366 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,160 Speaker 1: can read about this. Again, we can't recommend that book 367 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:17,879 Speaker 1: in the Atlantic articles enough. But uh, just having that 368 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:20,080 Speaker 1: black box that you have to put all of your 369 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:22,600 Speaker 1: ideas into as a filmmaker, someone who's going to try 370 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,200 Speaker 1: and create media and get it in China, Um, not 371 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 1: knowing what is that's got to be crazy. Uh, difficult 372 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:31,680 Speaker 1: to even wrap your mind around. But you think about 373 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:35,280 Speaker 1: in the US, there are sensors that look at media. 374 00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:37,800 Speaker 1: There's the m p a A and other organizations like 375 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:40,680 Speaker 1: that in the US that look at content and decide 376 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 1: if it's you know, to profane, or if it's profane 377 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:46,280 Speaker 1: at a certain level, it'll get a rating or something 378 00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:48,440 Speaker 1: it will be prevented from being shown in certain places. 379 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:53,160 Speaker 1: But often I guess there's other content stuff, right, anything 380 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:58,479 Speaker 1: that's sexual, anything what that's really it? Is it too 381 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 1: sexual or the word too violent? Yeah? Or depictions increasingly 382 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:10,480 Speaker 1: depictions of addiction, including things like cigarette smoking might set 383 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:13,120 Speaker 1: your rating a little bit more mature. There was one 384 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:16,359 Speaker 1: film as about a tornado. Maybe his Twister or something. 385 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 1: They got demed on ratings for depictions of violent weather, 386 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:24,560 Speaker 1: which I thought was hilarious. Yeah, true story, I do 387 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 1: not remember. Yeah, but but yeah, gonna we're gonna talk. 388 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:33,000 Speaker 1: We're gonna talk a little bit more to about about 389 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:35,040 Speaker 1: the differences here. But I love the way you're setting 390 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:40,440 Speaker 1: this up, because, yes, countries, for the most part, the 391 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:44,800 Speaker 1: big film producing countries, all have these kinds of rating systems, 392 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 1: and they're they're made with good intentions, just as China's 393 00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:53,080 Speaker 1: government would argue its own censorship board is made with 394 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:56,160 Speaker 1: you know, uh, they're doing what is good for the public. 395 00:26:56,440 --> 00:27:00,920 Speaker 1: And if you are a parent, then you to totally understand, 396 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:04,239 Speaker 1: especially when your kids were younger, it's helpful to know 397 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:08,080 Speaker 1: if there's gonna be some wild traumatic stuff in a film. 398 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:12,480 Speaker 1: You don't want to have to explain the movie seven 399 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:16,240 Speaker 1: to uh seven year old child, you know what I mean. 400 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:19,160 Speaker 1: You don't want to go in there without having at 401 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:24,440 Speaker 1: least some knowledge of what happens. Again, but their ages 402 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:28,480 Speaker 1: in the name. Yes, So despite the fact that for 403 00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:32,520 Speaker 1: a while the censorship regime, this you know, body of 404 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:37,359 Speaker 1: rules was a black box, Western studios and filmmakers quickly 405 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 1: learned acquired a spider sense of what to avoid. They 406 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:44,720 Speaker 1: know that the government doesn't hesitate to punish studios that 407 00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:48,480 Speaker 1: step out a line that address topics Chin to find 408 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:54,399 Speaker 1: subjectionable or embarrassing or uh. The phrase they use is 409 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:59,520 Speaker 1: topics that distort history or distort the truth about China. 410 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:04,639 Speaker 1: They also will clamp down on any events, and again 411 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:06,600 Speaker 1: these are works of fiction for the most part, any 412 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:10,440 Speaker 1: events that highlight things the government does not want the 413 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:13,240 Speaker 1: public of China to know. This is stuff that you 414 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:18,160 Speaker 1: can already imagine, like um the idea of Taiwanese independence, 415 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:23,959 Speaker 1: or topics involving demonstrations in Hong Kong, or ethnic minorities 416 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:29,040 Speaker 1: like weakers. We can we can also tell you the 417 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 1: extent of punishment here. So those earlier examples Matt, you 418 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:35,959 Speaker 1: and I were talking about seven years in Tibet and 419 00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 1: Kundun in the government of China did not hesitate to 420 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:50,240 Speaker 1: turn those experiences into examples for all other Western filmmakers, 421 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:55,000 Speaker 1: I'd say all other non Chinese filmmakers. They made it 422 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 1: clear that not only did they not care for the 423 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:01,640 Speaker 1: production of these films whether or not they got released 424 00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 1: in China, but they were going to punish the studios 425 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:08,720 Speaker 1: behind them for making these films in the first place, 426 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:12,080 Speaker 1: so Disney Releases couldn't gun. It's kind of an interesting 427 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:15,960 Speaker 1: story too, because they inherited it from Scorsese Sony Releases 428 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:20,360 Speaker 1: seven years in Tibet. They're both parts of massive these studios, 429 00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:23,360 Speaker 1: I mean both parts of massive corporations with interests that 430 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:27,840 Speaker 1: are far, far past movies. A good illustration with this, 431 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:31,520 Speaker 1: this very common in corporate America, would be the comedy 432 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 1: series Thirty Rock, which is awesome. In thirty Rock, Alec 433 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:40,640 Speaker 1: Baldwin plays a stylized version of Lauren Michaels, and Alec 434 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:46,280 Speaker 1: Baldwin's character Jack Donaghy, runs NBC, but he really wants 435 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:49,960 Speaker 1: to run GE, which is like the parent company, and 436 00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:54,280 Speaker 1: so there are numerous episodes where his character is calling 437 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,680 Speaker 1: in the writers of this show and saying, look, I 438 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:01,120 Speaker 1: understand you guys do a comedy sketch show. Microwaves are 439 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 1: very big right now, Okay, so we need to make 440 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 1: sure that there are a lot of microwaves in these sketches. 441 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:11,040 Speaker 1: This happens this, uh, something like this, full disclosure. We're 442 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:15,240 Speaker 1: an anti censorship show. Full disclosure. Matt. Remember when stuff 443 00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 1: like this used to happen to us during the Discovery 444 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:20,880 Speaker 1: days on our little show. I don't remember anything particularly 445 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:23,920 Speaker 1: like this, but I do remember a little thing with 446 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:29,200 Speaker 1: Mermaids once. Oh yeah, Mermaids. We fought the good fight 447 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:32,440 Speaker 1: on that one. I think we did. We got away 448 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 1: with it too for now. But there are things like, um, 449 00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:38,800 Speaker 1: I think it's fair as say it's it's been long enough. 450 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:42,120 Speaker 1: There are things where, uh, there would be some larger 451 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:48,240 Speaker 1: initiative and incorporation, like um, punkin chunkin was one. It 452 00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:54,160 Speaker 1: was this seasonal this seasonal television event where people would 453 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:58,920 Speaker 1: build tribute Shay tribute says and they would launch pumpkins 454 00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:03,760 Speaker 1: to see how are they could chunk chunk the punkin pumpkin. 455 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 1: This is still indoctrinated and so various. I forgot about 456 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:12,080 Speaker 1: Shark Week to Ben and Shark Week. Yeah yeah, trying 457 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:14,360 Speaker 1: to make my old car show about sharks for like 458 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:18,280 Speaker 1: a week every year. That was. It was a good 459 00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:22,360 Speaker 1: creative exercise anyway. So so what we're saying is the 460 00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:25,560 Speaker 1: Disney that we're talking about the movie studio is a 461 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:29,800 Speaker 1: smaller part of the bigger thing, the actual mouse and 462 00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 1: the part of Sony that's releasing seven years in Tibet 463 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:38,040 Speaker 1: is also a smaller part of a larger entity. China 464 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:41,480 Speaker 1: knew this, so they didn't stress going after the kids here. 465 00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:45,160 Speaker 1: They didn't really stress too much about going after the studios. 466 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:48,160 Speaker 1: They just cut them off. But then they escalated and 467 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:52,640 Speaker 1: punished the parent companies for a while, they banned Sony 468 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:57,000 Speaker 1: and Disney all together from the entire country of China. 469 00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:00,600 Speaker 1: Just no if sands or butts, no loopholes. In fact, 470 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,880 Speaker 1: in the case of Disney, Michael Eisner and his team 471 00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:07,200 Speaker 1: Michael Eisler was CEO at the time, conspired. This is 472 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,720 Speaker 1: a small conspiracy and much larger one. They conspired to 473 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:18,240 Speaker 1: actively make this film couldn't done unsuccessful. They purposely sabotaged 474 00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:21,480 Speaker 1: it because they didn't want to be seen as just 475 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:25,560 Speaker 1: rolling over and going belly up for the censors of 476 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:28,320 Speaker 1: a foreign government, because then it would look like they 477 00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:32,400 Speaker 1: were anti free speech and they were disrespecting the legacy 478 00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:36,840 Speaker 1: of an autour like Martin Scorsese. So instead, this is 479 00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:39,480 Speaker 1: what Eisener does. They say, we're going to release this 480 00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:43,200 Speaker 1: movie because we said we would, we contractually have to, 481 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:48,520 Speaker 1: but we're only gonna put it in four theaters literally, 482 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:51,800 Speaker 1: one like four theater screens. We're going to give it 483 00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:57,040 Speaker 1: a very small runway of airtime, and then we're gonna say, whoops, uh, 484 00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:00,840 Speaker 1: this movie did a terrible job, so it doesn't make 485 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:06,280 Speaker 1: sense for us financially to distribute it further. That's that's 486 00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:10,120 Speaker 1: what happened. It's an honest mistake that show biz and 487 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:14,600 Speaker 1: that wasn't enough. So get this. He flew Michael Isiser, 488 00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:17,520 Speaker 1: one of the most powerful CEOs in this field. He 489 00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:22,240 Speaker 1: flies personally to Beijing and apologizes to them, to the 490 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:25,560 Speaker 1: officials involved, and he says, this is a real quote. 491 00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:28,360 Speaker 1: You can look it up. He says, the bad news 492 00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:33,080 Speaker 1: is the movie was released. The good news is nobody 493 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:37,880 Speaker 1: saw it. Yeah. Yeah, that's I mean, if you really 494 00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:40,760 Speaker 1: wrap your head around what that means. The head of 495 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:43,480 Speaker 1: one of these giant corporations flew to China and said, hey, 496 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:47,360 Speaker 1: we're sorry about that. Won't happen again. Please don't punish 497 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:51,200 Speaker 1: our parent company, my company any further. All the other 498 00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:55,960 Speaker 1: major corporations, especially large conglomerates that also owned movie studios, 499 00:33:56,520 --> 00:34:03,200 Speaker 1: took real notice. They're like, Okay, it's nineteen we can't 500 00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:05,560 Speaker 1: do this again. We're not going to do this again. 501 00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:09,719 Speaker 1: Uh so we need to be. We need to basically 502 00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:14,040 Speaker 1: keep a close watch internally on both the writing of 503 00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:16,839 Speaker 1: films and the films that are trying to come out. 504 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:20,319 Speaker 1: And we're gonna have to tamp down a little bit 505 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:23,680 Speaker 1: on some of the content that our creatives are attempting 506 00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:29,040 Speaker 1: to put out, those troublesome creatives. Uh. And this is 507 00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:33,160 Speaker 1: this leads to a situation which is kind of bizarre, 508 00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:37,040 Speaker 1: you know. Uh. One mark of respect that you can 509 00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:45,640 Speaker 1: give Hollywood, despite its many many imperfections, it's uh often unclean, 510 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:49,560 Speaker 1: lack of ethics, etcetera, etcetera. One thing you can say 511 00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:54,040 Speaker 1: in as a positive about the US film entertainment industry 512 00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:58,600 Speaker 1: is that it doesn't it doesn't really hesitate to speak 513 00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:03,440 Speaker 1: truth to political power structures in the US. It's up 514 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:06,800 Speaker 1: for grabs, you know. And you'll see filmmakers and screenwriters 515 00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:11,560 Speaker 1: and directors and even sometimes some suits who are saying 516 00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:15,640 Speaker 1: they feel that it is morally correct to call out 517 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:20,040 Speaker 1: bad behavior and tell the unpleasant truths, which I you know, 518 00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:23,319 Speaker 1: obviously I think Matt, you and I both have great 519 00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:26,920 Speaker 1: respect for that. But those same folks are increasingly taking 520 00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:32,200 Speaker 1: the opposite approach to the government of China because they 521 00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:34,919 Speaker 1: will get smacked down for doing so. It has clear 522 00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:39,120 Speaker 1: and immediate financial consequences for the short and long term. 523 00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:44,200 Speaker 1: In two thousand and twelve, these two up and coming politicians, 524 00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:47,359 Speaker 1: one from US, one from China meet up and they 525 00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:51,200 Speaker 1: crack a new deal for foreign films. You'll recognize one 526 00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:55,839 Speaker 1: as former Vice President Joe Biden, and his counterpart is 527 00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:58,200 Speaker 1: a hot shot named j j and Pink, who would 528 00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:01,440 Speaker 1: later go on to become the President of China, just 529 00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:04,920 Speaker 1: the way Biden went on. Yeah, there we go, just 530 00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:07,600 Speaker 1: the way Biden went and became president of the US. 531 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:10,239 Speaker 1: I shouldn't say it that casually. I don't think it 532 00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:12,400 Speaker 1: was like a whole of my beer situation. You know, 533 00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:16,120 Speaker 1: there's a lot of work to become president. Anyhow. So 534 00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:20,279 Speaker 1: this happens before they are the ultimate authorities in their 535 00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:24,400 Speaker 1: respective countries, and they negotiate this expansion of a deal 536 00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:28,760 Speaker 1: that will allow a quota of thirty four foreign films 537 00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:33,720 Speaker 1: into the Chinese market per year. And uh, they also 538 00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:38,359 Speaker 1: up the percentage of ticket sales that the studios will get. 539 00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:42,680 Speaker 1: They used to get ticket sales, then they started getting 540 00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,680 Speaker 1: This was a big win. There is a dangerous win, 541 00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:51,600 Speaker 1: and I don't think everybody realized it immediately because it 542 00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:57,200 Speaker 1: guaranteed a ton of money, but it also guaranteed a dependency, 543 00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:02,440 Speaker 1: something like an addiction. Hollywood became increasingly reliant on these profits, 544 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:06,520 Speaker 1: which meant they were increasingly concerned with making sure that 545 00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:10,160 Speaker 1: they could get through the gate of censorship. Uh. And 546 00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:12,600 Speaker 1: this is where I think we should go back to 547 00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:17,560 Speaker 1: um your excellent description of the mp a A. The 548 00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:21,120 Speaker 1: m p a A, the rating system here in the 549 00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:25,040 Speaker 1: US is primarily concerned with what could be seen as 550 00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:29,000 Speaker 1: age appropriate. We've got G for general audience, P for 551 00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:34,040 Speaker 1: parental guidance suggested PG. Thirteen for parental guidance suggested, And hey, 552 00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:37,160 Speaker 1: maybe your kids should be like at least thirteen or older. Uh. 553 00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:40,279 Speaker 1: And then of course you've got our And then we're 554 00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:44,080 Speaker 1: talking about this a second Street restricted, which was so exciting, 555 00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:46,799 Speaker 1: you know, to sneak into an R rated movie. Yeah, 556 00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:50,239 Speaker 1: I did it, whatever, but they like what? Then then 557 00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:52,880 Speaker 1: there's the other Um, well was it we checked with 558 00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:55,840 Speaker 1: Mission Control? Oh? N C seventeen. I know it is 559 00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:58,600 Speaker 1: a rating at least I seem commonly. And then there's 560 00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:02,200 Speaker 1: also the unrated version of certain films that you can find, 561 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:05,279 Speaker 1: but it's usually a special release UH and non in 562 00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:08,560 Speaker 1: a theater usually. Yeah, so yeah, I mean that makes sense. 563 00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:11,680 Speaker 1: But if you look to China and their system that 564 00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:15,600 Speaker 1: those distinctions of like, maybe this is little level of 565 00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:19,760 Speaker 1: caution you should take before viewing this film, it doesn't 566 00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:23,920 Speaker 1: exist at least not in the same way, right, Yeah, exactly, 567 00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:29,120 Speaker 1: because you sure there's the idea of protecting innocent eyeballs 568 00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:34,000 Speaker 1: from depictions of things like graphic physical violence and so on, 569 00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:39,560 Speaker 1: But the primary goal is to protect the perceived legitimacy 570 00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:44,279 Speaker 1: of the current government, to protect the status quo of 571 00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:49,200 Speaker 1: domestic society and culture. So this means the Chinese government, 572 00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:54,760 Speaker 1: through things like SERF, has the ultimate power to decide 573 00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:59,760 Speaker 1: what is or is not appropriate, regardless of a potential 574 00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:03,399 Speaker 1: view yours age. So it's a very different set of priorities, 575 00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:07,640 Speaker 1: and it's a very different execution of those priorities. It 576 00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:10,319 Speaker 1: really has been. Just before we take off here, I 577 00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:12,600 Speaker 1: want to talk just a tiny bit more about that 578 00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:17,520 Speaker 1: added twelve percent of profits that US studios or Hollywood 579 00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:22,200 Speaker 1: studios see from sales in China. We we talked on 580 00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:26,359 Speaker 1: this show a lot about corporations and capitalism and what 581 00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:31,319 Speaker 1: it means to have UH increases in profits on a 582 00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:34,120 Speaker 1: year over year basis or a quarter by quarter basis, 583 00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:38,880 Speaker 1: and how that, how that translates into the success or 584 00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:42,280 Speaker 1: massive failure of a company. If we look to something 585 00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:46,279 Speaker 1: like Netflix that very recently in the news, in one 586 00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:49,240 Speaker 1: of their quarterly quarterly reports, showed that they had fewer 587 00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:53,359 Speaker 1: people using their service, like fewer new subscriptions coming in 588 00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:58,920 Speaker 1: on a monthly basis, and their stock price fell by 589 00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:02,600 Speaker 1: billions and billions of dollars. Now, the same thing with 590 00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:06,240 Speaker 1: all of these privately owned corporations, some of them traded 591 00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:09,560 Speaker 1: I believe at least the parent companies are traded in 592 00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:13,879 Speaker 1: through the stock market. If you are adding to your 593 00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:19,000 Speaker 1: line a potential extra twelve percent in profits that goes 594 00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:21,399 Speaker 1: up one year or one quarter or whatever it is, 595 00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:24,320 Speaker 1: then you've got to hit that thing again at least 596 00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:28,040 Speaker 1: that or you're gonna show your investors are gonna lose 597 00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:31,600 Speaker 1: their confidence in you. So it really is, as Ben said, 598 00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:35,920 Speaker 1: a leash or some it's it's a very firm control 599 00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:41,560 Speaker 1: mechanism that the state of China then has on Hollywood. Absolutely, yeah, 600 00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:45,400 Speaker 1: and well said, But how okay, So let's maybe do 601 00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:51,279 Speaker 1: a thought experiment and imagine that you and I are 602 00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:56,000 Speaker 1: making stuff they don't want you to know. The movie, 603 00:40:56,200 --> 00:41:00,279 Speaker 1: hopefully with a more creative title, and we know that 604 00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:03,320 Speaker 1: it's fine to to air it in the US or wherever, 605 00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:06,640 Speaker 1: but our big Crown Jewel will be airing this in 606 00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:09,279 Speaker 1: China for some reason. We look at each other and 607 00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:12,040 Speaker 1: we both say, you know what, dude, that's the perfect 608 00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:16,959 Speaker 1: audience for this. For this film in particular, we're gonna 609 00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:19,800 Speaker 1: have to figure out how to navigate that sensor process. 610 00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:22,000 Speaker 1: So we're gonna pause for a word from our sponsor, 611 00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:24,720 Speaker 1: gonna put our filmmaker hats on, and then we're gonna 612 00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:27,719 Speaker 1: return and see how we would try to tackle this. 613 00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:39,160 Speaker 1: We're back, We're back, We're now, um, we're now. What 614 00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:41,880 Speaker 1: kind of level of filmmaking should we be at for 615 00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:44,680 Speaker 1: this experiment? Matt? Do you want to be like, are 616 00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:49,839 Speaker 1: we like um on Ginews kind of James Cameron level? 617 00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:53,080 Speaker 1: We're James Cameron okay, cool, so we can make blockbuster 618 00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:56,480 Speaker 1: movies as an excuse for us to use a submarine. 619 00:41:56,520 --> 00:41:59,200 Speaker 1: We're at that level. Oh oh dude. Yeah, we made 620 00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:02,640 Speaker 1: Avatar okay, and now we gotta make Avatar too. But 621 00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:06,440 Speaker 1: the problem is there's some stuff in there that China 622 00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:10,400 Speaker 1: seems to think we're heavily implying is China, you know 623 00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:13,200 Speaker 1: it's a metaphor, right, It's not, it's totally not, but 624 00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:15,560 Speaker 1: they think it is. So we gotta be real careful, 625 00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:19,840 Speaker 1: right right. And due to my due to my color blindness, 626 00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:22,239 Speaker 1: which is a true thing, there's a lot of red 627 00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:24,719 Speaker 1: stuff in the cut, and we've got to figure out 628 00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:26,840 Speaker 1: what that is. And then we've also got stuff they 629 00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:29,200 Speaker 1: don't want you to know the movie coming out. So 630 00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:32,840 Speaker 1: luckily we have some help from a guy named Robert Kane. 631 00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:37,120 Speaker 1: Robert Kane has been making films at this point for 632 00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:41,000 Speaker 1: decades in China, and he has an excellent explanation of 633 00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:44,720 Speaker 1: this on his blog. So Matt and I and Paul 634 00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:49,239 Speaker 1: as our let's say, let's say Mission Control is like 635 00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:52,880 Speaker 1: our studio head money guy, and so we have to 636 00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:55,759 Speaker 1: make sure that we don't get on his bad side 637 00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:59,880 Speaker 1: to remain profitable. So we're heavily incentivized to make something 638 00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:04,600 Speaker 1: work for Avatar and for Staddwick the movie. Uh. The 639 00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:08,799 Speaker 1: we we know that the principal aims of their censorship 640 00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:12,719 Speaker 1: system in China are, from their own description, to promote 641 00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:19,680 Speaker 1: the Confucian understanding of morality, to maintain political stability, and 642 00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:24,440 Speaker 1: to make sure that everything is socially harmonious. We want, 643 00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:28,840 Speaker 1: if we're the sensors, then to the most extreme degree possible, 644 00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:31,959 Speaker 1: we want everyone to appear to be on the same 645 00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:35,680 Speaker 1: page about everything. Yeah. Well, but but that's pretty easy, right. 646 00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:38,120 Speaker 1: We just send them the final cut, you know, or 647 00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:40,319 Speaker 1: at least a rough cut of the film that we're 648 00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:42,200 Speaker 1: working on, and then they'll give us notes, right, and 649 00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:45,399 Speaker 1: we'll say, okay, we'll try and work well at some 650 00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:47,799 Speaker 1: part of the process. That's what we do. But first 651 00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:51,040 Speaker 1: we have to send them the script before we film. 652 00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:55,239 Speaker 1: We're well, I guess we could be filming depending on 653 00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:57,960 Speaker 1: production timeline, but we have to start with the script, 654 00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:01,400 Speaker 1: and there will be a three part process. So we 655 00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:04,239 Speaker 1: send our screenplay, or we could send our finished film, 656 00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:07,600 Speaker 1: but we'll see why that's risky to this censorship board. 657 00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:12,200 Speaker 1: The board has uh a little more than two weeks 658 00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:17,160 Speaker 1: fifteen days to respond to us, but you know, it's bureaucracy, 659 00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:20,640 Speaker 1: so it's not always going to be within that fifteen 660 00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:25,640 Speaker 1: day period the right, right, you know, And we don't 661 00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:29,120 Speaker 1: know how they felt about the first avatar, so the 662 00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:35,440 Speaker 1: authorities will respond with some comments about things, but often 663 00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:41,160 Speaker 1: also suggestions revisions. Here's how you alter the film to 664 00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:46,560 Speaker 1: meet our checklist of taboo subjects. And then we as 665 00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:49,520 Speaker 1: the filmmakers, get the opportunity to go back to our 666 00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:54,560 Speaker 1: lab and make those modifications. You know, maybe let's maybe 667 00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:57,800 Speaker 1: let's take the statue of liberty out of this shot, 668 00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:06,120 Speaker 1: or maybe let's change ange. Uh, this conversation about torture, right, 669 00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:10,960 Speaker 1: even one throwaway line someone says, well, they tortured them 670 00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:14,360 Speaker 1: like people do in China. Then they would say, okay, yeah, 671 00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:18,440 Speaker 1: it's gotta well there is this, we'll definitely cut that. 672 00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:20,640 Speaker 1: But there is a scene that it's like in the 673 00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:23,520 Speaker 1: climax where there are a bunch of these tanks rolling 674 00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:27,640 Speaker 1: down this hillside and then one of the avatars stands 675 00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:30,360 Speaker 1: in front of it and it had just been shopping 676 00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:33,799 Speaker 1: I think maybe a grocery shopping, and uh, it's just 677 00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:36,520 Speaker 1: standing there and it's defying of the tanks and I 678 00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:39,960 Speaker 1: really need that to be in ben. Yeah, And so 679 00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:43,800 Speaker 1: they'll come back and they'll say, um, come on, guys, 680 00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:50,319 Speaker 1: come on. You know, they might be pretty cool with us, 681 00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:53,480 Speaker 1: you know, like the cool teacher catching kids smoking in 682 00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:57,480 Speaker 1: the parking lot after school. Like, hey, you're better than 683 00:45:57,480 --> 00:46:01,880 Speaker 1: this guy's real disappointed. Okay, And then we would we 684 00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:04,359 Speaker 1: would come back and say like, okay, well, you know, 685 00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:08,000 Speaker 1: Matt and I really need this in. Are there other 686 00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:12,520 Speaker 1: machines we can use? What or or like animals? What 687 00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:18,880 Speaker 1: if they're like elephants or you know the originals? Yeah? 688 00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:20,720 Speaker 1: Well what if? Yeah? What if we take the tanks 689 00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:22,640 Speaker 1: out and now it's just a bunch of people and 690 00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:26,080 Speaker 1: they're all holding umbrellas? Would that be okay? Right? Right right? 691 00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:28,919 Speaker 1: We're just pitching these back and forth and they will 692 00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:36,120 Speaker 1: review the changes and they might say, like, guys, seriously, 693 00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:40,680 Speaker 1: what what did you expect? Or they might say, Okay, 694 00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:44,480 Speaker 1: this works because I know you you know, and I 695 00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:48,839 Speaker 1: liked the first avatar. Uh. So if if this whole process, though, 696 00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:53,240 Speaker 1: uh goes to pot and goes sideways the first time around, 697 00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:56,480 Speaker 1: then we can go back and start it again and 698 00:46:56,520 --> 00:46:59,520 Speaker 1: try to try to have a mulligan, one more additional review. 699 00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:05,680 Speaker 1: And this can happen because again, the filmmakers and their studioheads, 700 00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:08,440 Speaker 1: the PULM mission controls are aware that there are potentially 701 00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:11,920 Speaker 1: billions of dollars of profit on the line, and to 702 00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:16,160 Speaker 1: be really clear about these sensors. These folks aren't here like, 703 00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:19,600 Speaker 1: they're not a writer's room punching up scripts. They're not 704 00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:23,640 Speaker 1: adding cool tags, the jokes or zingers or puns or whatever. 705 00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:27,200 Speaker 1: They're not always talking about product placement. They're focused on 706 00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:30,160 Speaker 1: telling you, as a filmmaker what you can't do. So 707 00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:32,680 Speaker 1: we can tell you some of the red flags for sensors. 708 00:47:32,680 --> 00:47:36,040 Speaker 1: Maybe we shouldn't say red flags. Uh. They include stuff 709 00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:39,640 Speaker 1: like depictions of sex and violence. They don't like a 710 00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:44,440 Speaker 1: lot of obscene language, a lot of religious depictions. Uh. 711 00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:49,560 Speaker 1: They don't like superstition as well, nor gambling, nor vices 712 00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:54,520 Speaker 1: like too much drinking, drug abuse, or uh, criminal activity, 713 00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:58,200 Speaker 1: especially if it seems to condone criminal activity. And this 714 00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:02,080 Speaker 1: is where Kane has, uh a really interesting observation that 715 00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:04,640 Speaker 1: I don't think a lot of us in the US 716 00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:07,799 Speaker 1: are aware of. There's something else that China is very 717 00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:12,799 Speaker 1: big on. Censory. Yeah, superhero stuff. What they don't They 718 00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:15,960 Speaker 1: don't they don't like Dr Strange apparently, or any of 719 00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:18,160 Speaker 1: the multiverse stuff because they don't like time travel. What 720 00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:23,760 Speaker 1: the heck? Gotta what we gotta have scientific facts behind 721 00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:26,960 Speaker 1: all of our plot points. How are we gonna make 722 00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:30,200 Speaker 1: Avatar bin the second one obviously, well yeah, they say 723 00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:33,440 Speaker 1: it needs to be based in scientific fact. So also 724 00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:36,719 Speaker 1: ghost or out, which is a shame because I love 725 00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:40,040 Speaker 1: ghost in any story. It doesn't matter what it is. Uh. 726 00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:42,200 Speaker 1: And but what if it's like six cents where you 727 00:48:42,239 --> 00:48:45,640 Speaker 1: don't realize it's a ghost the whole movie and we 728 00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:49,360 Speaker 1: just send in the last like two pages of the script. 729 00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:54,719 Speaker 1: It ends up kind of a cliffhanger, that, right, and 730 00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:56,960 Speaker 1: then we'll get that same I'm I'm kind of I'm 731 00:48:57,040 --> 00:49:01,760 Speaker 1: increasingly warming up to this idea of like a friendly 732 00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:05,080 Speaker 1: bureaucratic censor who likes us, but his hands are tied 733 00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:08,160 Speaker 1: and he's like, come on, guys, it's not the whole 734 00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:13,279 Speaker 1: and it's like, you know, it's like four am over here. 735 00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:17,080 Speaker 1: I have a family, I have to go to sleep, 736 00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:19,160 Speaker 1: and we're like no, no, no, no, no, go for it, 737 00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:23,880 Speaker 1: go for it. So yes, it's true. Also, obviously, anything 738 00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:27,400 Speaker 1: that seems to in any way impinge upon the reputation 739 00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:30,960 Speaker 1: of the Communist Party or leaders of the Communist Party, 740 00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:35,560 Speaker 1: so pretty much any leader from on h that is 741 00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:40,480 Speaker 1: prohibited with prejudice. And there's something else that's really funny. 742 00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:42,200 Speaker 1: It's stuck out to me and I think a lot 743 00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:46,600 Speaker 1: of our fellow fans of old martial arts films will 744 00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:50,560 Speaker 1: clock this. You might be saying, hey, on, I watch 745 00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:54,040 Speaker 1: a ton of old Chinese action films and they break 746 00:49:54,120 --> 00:49:58,960 Speaker 1: these rules all the time. It's true because there's wiggle 747 00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:02,640 Speaker 1: room for film that were either filmed in the past 748 00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:08,720 Speaker 1: or films that are depicting stuff before the revolution, before 749 00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:13,640 Speaker 1: nineteen forty nine. So the uh if you see a 750 00:50:13,719 --> 00:50:18,920 Speaker 1: film set in like, um, some ancient dynastic past and 751 00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:22,320 Speaker 1: there's a lot of fighting, that's view differently from something 752 00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:25,640 Speaker 1: set in the present day with a lot of violence, 753 00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:29,240 Speaker 1: or you know, any of those other taboo subjects we named, 754 00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:33,520 Speaker 1: which is is pretty startling, you know, And that's why, uh, 755 00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:36,680 Speaker 1: that's why you see a lot of blockbuster films in 756 00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:41,319 Speaker 1: China that are set in the ancient past, because you know, 757 00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:49,200 Speaker 1: or maybe somebody tried to get really close to it 758 00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:54,160 Speaker 1: and they were like, this entire incredibly violent story, anti 759 00:50:54,200 --> 00:51:00,840 Speaker 1: government story takes place in one day December twenty nine. 760 00:51:01,719 --> 00:51:06,759 Speaker 1: It's about ghosts. So I don't know, someone may have 761 00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:10,160 Speaker 1: tried that, but but like we know, so we know 762 00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:17,040 Speaker 1: that Western filmmakers started through uh, through experience, learning the 763 00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:22,600 Speaker 1: different pain points or the different controversial subjects, and they 764 00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:26,840 Speaker 1: got help every so often by sensors who would provide 765 00:51:27,280 --> 00:51:31,600 Speaker 1: guidelines that explain their judgment. In two thousand eight, they 766 00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:35,680 Speaker 1: codified a list of no nos. We paraphrase these above. 767 00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:39,080 Speaker 1: You can see the full list on Robert Kaine's blog. 768 00:51:39,480 --> 00:51:42,680 Speaker 1: He calls it kind of a set of commandments. But 769 00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:45,680 Speaker 1: it doesn't stop there. So let's say we have gotten 770 00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:48,080 Speaker 1: stuff then what you know in the movie and Avatar 771 00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:51,759 Speaker 1: to through the sensors. Somehow we made all like we 772 00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:56,280 Speaker 1: turned the tanks into elephants. We replaced troubling color palettes 773 00:51:56,320 --> 00:51:59,480 Speaker 1: and all that junk. And now we're filming and because 774 00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:03,600 Speaker 1: we are James Cameron level, we are going to film 775 00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:07,600 Speaker 1: in the real location, minimal green screens for us. We're 776 00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:11,120 Speaker 1: going to China. That's where we're filming both of these movies, 777 00:52:11,960 --> 00:52:14,120 Speaker 1: and that's where we learned that they're going to be 778 00:52:14,200 --> 00:52:19,080 Speaker 1: spies on set. I just had a flash of I 779 00:52:19,120 --> 00:52:21,200 Speaker 1: don't know if you remember this movie, The Great Wall, 780 00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:26,279 Speaker 1: that Matt Damon made years ago. I can't remember when 781 00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:29,600 Speaker 1: it was in the twenty teens what it's called The 782 00:52:29,640 --> 00:52:33,640 Speaker 1: Great Wall, And I remember being flabbergasted by it, but 783 00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:36,399 Speaker 1: I do imagine that they shot much of it on 784 00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:39,400 Speaker 1: the actual Great Wall. Sorry, that's all I'm thinking about. 785 00:52:39,440 --> 00:52:44,600 Speaker 1: I always thinking about that too. Uh. Yeah, let's let's 786 00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:46,920 Speaker 1: go back. Sorry but oh no, no, no, you know 787 00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:49,279 Speaker 1: what while we're here, what we should also say? We 788 00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:51,960 Speaker 1: haven't mentioned this yet? And this is something I know 789 00:52:52,040 --> 00:52:55,239 Speaker 1: everybody is seen if you're a film buff. Uh. It's 790 00:52:55,239 --> 00:52:59,920 Speaker 1: not always a matter of cutting out content or revised 791 00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:04,520 Speaker 1: seeing existing content. You'll see films Marvel has done this too, 792 00:53:04,680 --> 00:53:07,359 Speaker 1: uh and Fox have done this. You'll see films where 793 00:53:07,400 --> 00:53:11,800 Speaker 1: additional content is added for the Chinese audience to put 794 00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:17,200 Speaker 1: more stuff related to China and Chinese culture in the film, Like, uh, 795 00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:21,400 Speaker 1: so the Great Wall is a whole different movie. And 796 00:53:21,440 --> 00:53:23,520 Speaker 1: then they just added the Great Wall and called it 797 00:53:23,560 --> 00:53:28,160 Speaker 1: but they just added Matt Damon uh the original cut. 798 00:53:28,200 --> 00:53:31,000 Speaker 1: He's not a uh no, no no, and Matt Damon 799 00:53:31,040 --> 00:53:33,719 Speaker 1: is a great actor to be fair. Uh. In X 800 00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:38,480 Speaker 1: Men Days of Future Past, for example, the studio added 801 00:53:38,680 --> 00:53:44,640 Speaker 1: over thirty minutes of footage, including cameos from like a 802 00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:48,439 Speaker 1: very high level Chinese star being bing Han and then 803 00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:52,200 Speaker 1: a Chinese boy band. They added it in because they 804 00:53:52,400 --> 00:53:55,160 Speaker 1: they know there's a big audience, and if people are 805 00:53:55,320 --> 00:53:58,640 Speaker 1: super fans of that actor or that boy band, then 806 00:53:58,680 --> 00:54:01,720 Speaker 1: they'll go just to see that part. So there there's 807 00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:06,080 Speaker 1: a clear calculus here. I don't have proof of this, um, 808 00:54:06,120 --> 00:54:09,000 Speaker 1: but I have a theory. You know. I loved, I love, 809 00:54:09,080 --> 00:54:14,200 Speaker 1: love loved the film series Pacific Rim, which is just 810 00:54:15,239 --> 00:54:19,480 Speaker 1: giant robots and kaiju fighting. Don't stress about the plot, 811 00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:22,879 Speaker 1: don't stress about the holes in the plot. Uh, it's 812 00:54:22,880 --> 00:54:24,759 Speaker 1: a popcorn film. I was there to have a good time. 813 00:54:24,880 --> 00:54:28,600 Speaker 1: The special effects are amazing, and in the sequel it's 814 00:54:28,640 --> 00:54:33,919 Speaker 1: nuts because US studios right, didn't really care too much 815 00:54:33,960 --> 00:54:37,080 Speaker 1: for Pacific Rim, but it made a killing in China 816 00:54:37,520 --> 00:54:41,719 Speaker 1: and that meant Yeah. Even though even though for a 817 00:54:41,760 --> 00:54:45,799 Speaker 1: long time studios I would say, to the detriment of 818 00:54:45,840 --> 00:54:54,279 Speaker 1: the art, studios were incredibly myopically focused on reboots, right, reboots, sequels. Uh, 819 00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:58,040 Speaker 1: let's let's take something that was doing well in the 820 00:54:58,120 --> 00:55:01,240 Speaker 1: nineties and let's just make it again, you know, because 821 00:55:01,239 --> 00:55:04,920 Speaker 1: it's safe. So they were a little bit adverse to 822 00:55:05,440 --> 00:55:08,600 Speaker 1: new ideas, got it, oh dude, totally at first new ideas. 823 00:55:08,600 --> 00:55:10,440 Speaker 1: But I want to stay on Pacific Rim because I 824 00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:13,120 Speaker 1: happen to just read about this one. Ben. I know 825 00:55:13,160 --> 00:55:15,239 Speaker 1: you're a big fan. I still haven't seen any of 826 00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:17,160 Speaker 1: the Pacific Room movies, by the way, and I need to. 827 00:55:17,239 --> 00:55:20,880 Speaker 1: I know I need to, but oh I'm going to. 828 00:55:21,320 --> 00:55:24,280 Speaker 1: But it's the leash we were talking about, or the 829 00:55:24,280 --> 00:55:28,520 Speaker 1: the necessity to have the China market, because that movie 830 00:55:28,880 --> 00:55:31,840 Speaker 1: cost a hundred The first one cost a hundred ninety 831 00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:35,280 Speaker 1: million dollars to make, and then it made back around 832 00:55:35,320 --> 00:55:38,239 Speaker 1: a hundred million dollars in the United States market and 833 00:55:38,239 --> 00:55:42,840 Speaker 1: and other markets. But then you add the China's market 834 00:55:42,920 --> 00:55:46,000 Speaker 1: to it, it actually makes money and now it's profitable. 835 00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:48,240 Speaker 1: But if they didn't have that, and if they didn't 836 00:55:48,239 --> 00:55:50,200 Speaker 1: do what they needed to do to get it played 837 00:55:50,239 --> 00:55:55,359 Speaker 1: in China, they would have lost nine million dollars. Yeah, 838 00:55:55,400 --> 00:55:58,360 Speaker 1: you can't do that. Yeah, exactly. They made more money 839 00:55:58,360 --> 00:56:01,120 Speaker 1: from that film in China than they did in the 840 00:56:01,280 --> 00:56:05,280 Speaker 1: entirety of North America, so Mexico, Canada, and the US. 841 00:56:05,760 --> 00:56:08,120 Speaker 1: They made like over a hundred and ten million dollars 842 00:56:08,120 --> 00:56:11,799 Speaker 1: in China alone. Uh, and then that was enough even 843 00:56:12,200 --> 00:56:15,920 Speaker 1: for these guys who are super selfishured and confidently saying 844 00:56:16,160 --> 00:56:18,719 Speaker 1: your reboots are where it's at that made enough that 845 00:56:18,760 --> 00:56:22,759 Speaker 1: they had to pay attention and they said, Okay, well, yeah, 846 00:56:22,760 --> 00:56:28,200 Speaker 1: it's time for a sequel. And because of the nature 847 00:56:28,200 --> 00:56:31,840 Speaker 1: of the success of the first one in China, Pacific 848 00:56:31,920 --> 00:56:36,919 Speaker 1: Rim to Pacific Rim Uprising leaned into it hard. That's 849 00:56:36,920 --> 00:56:40,760 Speaker 1: why there's a there's a review that I quite enjoyed 850 00:56:40,880 --> 00:56:45,239 Speaker 1: A Pacific Rim Uprising in Vulture when the film came 851 00:56:45,239 --> 00:56:50,120 Speaker 1: out by Emily Yoshida, and the title simply says specific 852 00:56:50,239 --> 00:56:54,200 Speaker 1: Rim Uprising might be the most China bait studio release yet. 853 00:56:55,080 --> 00:56:58,759 Speaker 1: Uh it's and if you look at it, if you 854 00:56:58,800 --> 00:57:01,280 Speaker 1: look at what's interest in his you know there are 855 00:57:02,719 --> 00:57:06,600 Speaker 1: entire plot lines that occur in Mandarin. Charlie Day from 856 00:57:06,640 --> 00:57:09,960 Speaker 1: Always Stunnying Philadelphia is in this film. Again, he was 857 00:57:09,960 --> 00:57:13,440 Speaker 1: in the first one too, and he is trying Mandarin. 858 00:57:13,480 --> 00:57:15,520 Speaker 1: There's a old running joke about him trying to speak 859 00:57:15,560 --> 00:57:20,000 Speaker 1: Mandarin well. And then Chinese stars, domestic Chinese stars get 860 00:57:20,080 --> 00:57:24,800 Speaker 1: pretty meaty uh rules in this. And then when I 861 00:57:24,920 --> 00:57:28,600 Speaker 1: was watching his funny because you'll see like a Chinese 862 00:57:28,640 --> 00:57:32,160 Speaker 1: military official who's in a lot of pivotal scenes. Uh, 863 00:57:32,200 --> 00:57:36,040 Speaker 1: and he doesn't have a ton of lines, but there 864 00:57:36,040 --> 00:57:39,800 Speaker 1: will be protagonist principles in the story who are talking 865 00:57:40,080 --> 00:57:42,080 Speaker 1: and he's just kind of in the room and they 866 00:57:42,120 --> 00:57:44,880 Speaker 1: can't ra just looked at him going like oh yeah, 867 00:57:45,080 --> 00:57:50,200 Speaker 1: uh huh no, no, okay, that kind of stuff. Yeah, exactly, 868 00:57:50,200 --> 00:57:53,800 Speaker 1: it was facial expressions, and the idea was the idea 869 00:57:54,640 --> 00:57:56,880 Speaker 1: I think was that he was the He was the 870 00:57:56,920 --> 00:58:01,400 Speaker 1: spy on set and they put him there. They were like, actually, 871 00:58:01,520 --> 00:58:04,560 Speaker 1: this dude's really cool. Did you know he can juggle? 872 00:58:05,560 --> 00:58:07,480 Speaker 1: Can we have him? He's not going to juggle on air, 873 00:58:07,520 --> 00:58:10,160 Speaker 1: but I think we can get him on the camera anyway. 874 00:58:10,240 --> 00:58:14,280 Speaker 1: So yeah, So there are spies on sets. It's not 875 00:58:14,360 --> 00:58:19,600 Speaker 1: uncommon if you're filming something in China, and uh Kane himself, 876 00:58:19,680 --> 00:58:23,960 Speaker 1: Robert Kane has a story about this which is pretty 877 00:58:24,040 --> 00:58:28,960 Speaker 1: human and understandable. His production made an honest mistake. They 878 00:58:28,960 --> 00:58:31,800 Speaker 1: weren't trying to sneak in subversive stuff, but it got 879 00:58:31,840 --> 00:58:34,360 Speaker 1: back to a government official, and the government official, the 880 00:58:34,360 --> 00:58:37,360 Speaker 1: party official, was about to shut down the production until 881 00:58:37,400 --> 00:58:40,400 Speaker 1: he went to him and essentially said, look, we didn't 882 00:58:40,400 --> 00:58:43,480 Speaker 1: mean to do anything. We have no problem with changing it. 883 00:58:44,360 --> 00:58:47,960 Speaker 1: That's like, totally are bad. Please just understand that maybe 884 00:58:48,000 --> 00:58:50,160 Speaker 1: we were a little thick about this. We didn't we 885 00:58:50,240 --> 00:58:54,040 Speaker 1: didn't know what the deal was. Now we know, and 886 00:58:54,520 --> 00:58:57,480 Speaker 1: hopefully we're cool. And the government official, also being a 887 00:58:57,560 --> 00:59:02,360 Speaker 1: human being, said yeah, no, no, okay, I believe Okay, guys, 888 00:59:02,600 --> 00:59:07,600 Speaker 1: all right, you rascals. Uh. But he this led him 889 00:59:07,640 --> 00:59:10,360 Speaker 1: to make a really interesting point. He says, Yeah, the 890 00:59:10,400 --> 00:59:13,200 Speaker 1: systems draconian. To a lot of people outside of China 891 00:59:13,480 --> 00:59:17,280 Speaker 1: and within China, it feels like stamping down on free speech. 892 00:59:17,680 --> 00:59:21,840 Speaker 1: But we have to remember the actual people, those thirtysomething 893 00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:26,360 Speaker 1: so censors who are making these decisions. In a lot 894 00:59:26,360 --> 00:59:29,560 Speaker 1: of cases, they're just good old film nerds too. They 895 00:59:29,920 --> 00:59:32,520 Speaker 1: they want to they want to see movies. They want 896 00:59:32,520 --> 00:59:35,600 Speaker 1: to help get this stuff over the line. In some cases, 897 00:59:35,840 --> 00:59:37,640 Speaker 1: and I haven't talked to these people personally, but in 898 00:59:37,680 --> 00:59:40,200 Speaker 1: some cases, I think it's reasonable to assume they may 899 00:59:40,440 --> 00:59:43,600 Speaker 1: be kind of bummed about their jobs. They might be like, 900 00:59:44,000 --> 00:59:47,080 Speaker 1: man that I can see that ghost on screen from 901 00:59:47,080 --> 00:59:50,200 Speaker 1: the script and it's just we can't do it, guys, 902 00:59:51,680 --> 00:59:58,560 Speaker 1: I'm so tired of sarfling all the time, exactly. Still, 903 00:59:58,880 --> 01:00:01,680 Speaker 1: that's that the way it stands, Censorship is the law 904 01:00:01,680 --> 01:00:04,360 Speaker 1: of the land, it's the rule of the day, and 905 01:00:04,560 --> 01:00:08,680 Speaker 1: it may be, honestly something dangerous in the near future. 906 01:00:09,000 --> 01:00:12,800 Speaker 1: You're gonna you're seeing already increasingly odd things in modern 907 01:00:12,880 --> 01:00:16,280 Speaker 1: Hollywood films. I want to go to Stanley rosen uh 908 01:00:16,520 --> 01:00:21,320 Speaker 1: University of Southern California political science professor. He studies China's 909 01:00:21,320 --> 01:00:25,200 Speaker 1: film industry extensively, and he said it's escalating in the 910 01:00:25,240 --> 01:00:29,360 Speaker 1: sense that sensors are much more direct and banning films 911 01:00:29,360 --> 01:00:34,080 Speaker 1: outright instead of tampering or asking for scenes to be removed. 912 01:00:35,200 --> 01:00:37,920 Speaker 1: But that's not the dangerous thing. The dangerous thing is 913 01:00:37,920 --> 01:00:42,760 Speaker 1: that these sensors are also apparently asking for oversight on 914 01:00:42,920 --> 01:00:48,840 Speaker 1: versions of movies for audiences outside of China. So let's say, 915 01:00:49,280 --> 01:00:53,640 Speaker 1: let's say Avatar Too is only going to be released 916 01:00:53,720 --> 01:00:57,600 Speaker 1: in France, and stuff they want you Know is only 917 01:00:57,640 --> 01:01:02,640 Speaker 1: coming out in Malta. Why not? There's this idea that 918 01:01:02,720 --> 01:01:06,080 Speaker 1: just for the film to exist, not just in China 919 01:01:06,240 --> 01:01:10,880 Speaker 1: but in the world, the entirety of the international release 920 01:01:10,960 --> 01:01:14,040 Speaker 1: has to meet these censorship requirements. And what does this 921 01:01:14,080 --> 01:01:16,280 Speaker 1: mean for you? It means even if you are not 922 01:01:16,320 --> 01:01:18,480 Speaker 1: in China, if you have never visited, you have no 923 01:01:18,560 --> 01:01:20,800 Speaker 1: plans to visit, you don't know a lick a Mandarin. 924 01:01:21,080 --> 01:01:23,320 Speaker 1: You might be watching not the film in the studio 925 01:01:23,440 --> 01:01:26,680 Speaker 1: wanted to make, but the film China allowed it to make. 926 01:01:27,240 --> 01:01:29,640 Speaker 1: Keep a close eye a Marvel and Disney in this 927 01:01:29,800 --> 01:01:33,120 Speaker 1: regard there. You may have seen this in the news 928 01:01:33,160 --> 01:01:36,600 Speaker 1: or at least on social media. Think about the Statue 929 01:01:36,600 --> 01:01:40,360 Speaker 1: of Liberty and oh, I don't know, a Spider Man 930 01:01:40,360 --> 01:01:44,080 Speaker 1: movie you might have seen lately. Anything that is going 931 01:01:44,120 --> 01:01:48,280 Speaker 1: to show a major nationalistic monument, something that is going 932 01:01:48,280 --> 01:01:50,840 Speaker 1: to represent a different country or great pride in a 933 01:01:50,880 --> 01:01:55,280 Speaker 1: different country that is not China might be looked down 934 01:01:55,360 --> 01:01:58,880 Speaker 1: upon by these sensors because, hey, look, if I'm if 935 01:01:59,000 --> 01:02:02,480 Speaker 1: I'm in China, I'm texting the way my citizens feel 936 01:02:02,520 --> 01:02:05,760 Speaker 1: about our country and pride in our system. I don't 937 01:02:05,760 --> 01:02:10,480 Speaker 1: want people getting all happy and excited about democracy and 938 01:02:10,720 --> 01:02:15,960 Speaker 1: the United States. That's not good for us. Uh. It's 939 01:02:15,960 --> 01:02:18,360 Speaker 1: weird to think that now that you've got this control 940 01:02:18,400 --> 01:02:22,240 Speaker 1: mechanism within with your profits, you can actually get Americans 941 01:02:22,240 --> 01:02:25,400 Speaker 1: who are making films for America to have to change 942 01:02:25,440 --> 01:02:31,880 Speaker 1: their plot points inside America because of your desires. Yeah. Possibly, 943 01:02:32,040 --> 01:02:36,160 Speaker 1: that's I mean, that's the that's the aim. The new 944 01:02:36,200 --> 01:02:39,760 Speaker 1: Doctor Strange got in trouble for what was seen as 945 01:02:39,800 --> 01:02:42,680 Speaker 1: a nod to Following Gong. If you want to know 946 01:02:42,760 --> 01:02:45,240 Speaker 1: why that's a big deal, check out our earlier episode 947 01:02:45,240 --> 01:02:49,680 Speaker 1: on Following Gong, which will explain that beautiful Shenyan reference 948 01:02:50,120 --> 01:02:54,480 Speaker 1: uh and to to other. To some people, this is 949 01:02:54,480 --> 01:02:57,960 Speaker 1: a cautionary tale of the danger of Orwellian big brothers. 950 01:02:58,520 --> 01:03:01,480 Speaker 1: But to others, it'sigger than that. It's much bigger. It's 951 01:03:01,480 --> 01:03:04,280 Speaker 1: an information war. It's a trade dispute. When you think 952 01:03:04,320 --> 01:03:06,840 Speaker 1: about it, you know, we can talk back and forth 953 01:03:06,960 --> 01:03:11,480 Speaker 1: all the livelong midnight about the importance of unstifled artistry 954 01:03:11,480 --> 01:03:14,720 Speaker 1: and free speech. But these companies making these films, they 955 01:03:14,760 --> 01:03:18,959 Speaker 1: are for profit entities. And so while an average movie 956 01:03:19,040 --> 01:03:22,040 Speaker 1: goer can say, hey, what's what's the big hubbub about 957 01:03:22,080 --> 01:03:26,440 Speaker 1: having two girls kissing on screen? Briefly, those companies and 958 01:03:26,480 --> 01:03:31,280 Speaker 1: those studios are saying in conference rooms, they're saying, Okay, 959 01:03:31,320 --> 01:03:34,040 Speaker 1: what can we do at all possible to get a 960 01:03:34,040 --> 01:03:37,840 Speaker 1: piece of this multibillion dollar gold mine. That's why Hollywood 961 01:03:37,840 --> 01:03:41,760 Speaker 1: companies are pre censoring films to avoid losing access to 962 01:03:41,800 --> 01:03:45,600 Speaker 1: that Chinese market. And it's possible that China, through sheer 963 01:03:45,640 --> 01:03:49,400 Speaker 1: economic heft, may one day be silently directing films and 964 01:03:49,480 --> 01:03:56,080 Speaker 1: markets across the world, including maybe Avatar too, definitely Avatar. 965 01:03:58,400 --> 01:04:02,880 Speaker 1: Uh well, um, this makes me sad. I don't know 966 01:04:02,920 --> 01:04:05,320 Speaker 1: what to do because it does feel like the film 967 01:04:05,360 --> 01:04:09,960 Speaker 1: industry in the US is just it's it's changed to 968 01:04:10,000 --> 01:04:12,880 Speaker 1: the profits that are needed. So it's just gonna happen 969 01:04:13,000 --> 01:04:16,320 Speaker 1: until something major changes. I mean, it's not a big 970 01:04:16,360 --> 01:04:21,760 Speaker 1: deal necessarily, at least for most people. And it just 971 01:04:21,840 --> 01:04:24,680 Speaker 1: means that stories are going to be shaped and changed 972 01:04:24,760 --> 01:04:28,640 Speaker 1: in ways that you know, some a tour, some really 973 01:04:28,880 --> 01:04:31,320 Speaker 1: incredible writer, you know, they wanted to show you and 974 01:04:31,320 --> 01:04:33,000 Speaker 1: tell you a story, but they won't be able to 975 01:04:33,000 --> 01:04:35,520 Speaker 1: do it in the same way anymore. That's kind of 976 01:04:35,520 --> 01:04:38,480 Speaker 1: messed up. Well. Also, you know, uh, I do want 977 01:04:38,480 --> 01:04:45,240 Speaker 1: to shout out the great many filmmakers who are Chinese 978 01:04:45,320 --> 01:04:47,840 Speaker 1: nationals who live in China now, who work in China, 979 01:04:47,960 --> 01:04:52,920 Speaker 1: and they're making amazing stuff. It just you know, it 980 01:04:52,960 --> 01:04:57,000 Speaker 1: causes you to wonder what they would make if they 981 01:04:57,040 --> 01:05:00,640 Speaker 1: could make whatever they wanted, and right now it's question 982 01:05:00,680 --> 01:05:05,240 Speaker 1: that is difficult to answer. So with that, we want 983 01:05:05,240 --> 01:05:08,000 Speaker 1: to hear what you think. Is this just the way 984 01:05:08,480 --> 01:05:12,920 Speaker 1: the cinematic sausage gets made. Should should film be steered 985 01:05:13,040 --> 01:05:18,760 Speaker 1: by ideology and profit motivations? Uh? And where in the 986 01:05:18,880 --> 01:05:22,720 Speaker 1: hierarchy of priorities should free speech occur? Do you agree 987 01:05:22,840 --> 01:05:27,439 Speaker 1: with China's approach to this? Uh? Do you disagree? If so, 988 01:05:27,600 --> 01:05:30,480 Speaker 1: why and if you have any experiences with this, please 989 01:05:30,560 --> 01:05:33,000 Speaker 1: let us know, please, please please. We can't wait to 990 01:05:33,000 --> 01:05:37,800 Speaker 1: hear some some firsthand anecdotes. Yeah, I want to hear anecdotes. 991 01:05:37,840 --> 01:05:39,280 Speaker 1: I want to hear what are we missing? What are 992 01:05:39,320 --> 01:05:42,360 Speaker 1: we not thinking about in the bigger discussion here, because 993 01:05:42,400 --> 01:05:44,480 Speaker 1: I know there's probably a few things that we're just 994 01:05:45,080 --> 01:05:47,520 Speaker 1: we haven't thought about yet, So let us know those things. 995 01:05:47,840 --> 01:05:50,120 Speaker 1: You can find us all over the place on social 996 01:05:50,160 --> 01:05:55,480 Speaker 1: media on Twitter, Facebook, YouTube, we are conspiracy stuff. You 997 01:05:55,480 --> 01:05:58,880 Speaker 1: can also find our Facebook group Here's where it gets crazy. 998 01:05:59,000 --> 01:06:00,440 Speaker 1: To get in, all you have to do is know 999 01:06:00,520 --> 01:06:03,760 Speaker 1: who hosts this show. We say our names every episode. 1000 01:06:04,400 --> 01:06:08,080 Speaker 1: Can figure it out. If you don't like social media, 1001 01:06:08,160 --> 01:06:11,520 Speaker 1: there are other ways to make contact. Yes, that's right. Uh, 1002 01:06:11,640 --> 01:06:15,160 Speaker 1: there are several other ways to make contact. You can 1003 01:06:15,160 --> 01:06:17,720 Speaker 1: always try to say my name in a mirror in 1004 01:06:17,760 --> 01:06:20,960 Speaker 1: the dark a few times. Your mileage may vary. Uh, 1005 01:06:21,000 --> 01:06:23,040 Speaker 1: it might actually be simpler if you don't want to 1006 01:06:23,040 --> 01:06:25,600 Speaker 1: wait till dark, to call us on the telephone where 1007 01:06:25,600 --> 01:06:29,040 Speaker 1: we are one eight three three st d w y 1008 01:06:29,160 --> 01:06:32,240 Speaker 1: t K. You'll hear a voice, you'll hear a sound. 1009 01:06:32,280 --> 01:06:34,680 Speaker 1: You'll have three minutes. Those three minutes are your own. 1010 01:06:34,800 --> 01:06:37,640 Speaker 1: Go nuts, tell us what's on your mind, give yourself 1011 01:06:37,680 --> 01:06:41,040 Speaker 1: a cool nickname or moniker. Let us know if we 1012 01:06:41,080 --> 01:06:43,080 Speaker 1: can use your voice and our message on the air. 1013 01:06:43,640 --> 01:06:47,720 Speaker 1: Most importantly, do not censor yourself. We have another way 1014 01:06:47,760 --> 01:06:51,000 Speaker 1: to contact us, oh breaking news. We have two other 1015 01:06:51,040 --> 01:06:54,200 Speaker 1: ways to contact us. There's a thing called talkback that 1016 01:06:54,240 --> 01:06:57,680 Speaker 1: you can use to drop us a quick thirty second message. 1017 01:06:57,720 --> 01:07:00,640 Speaker 1: You may have heard an ad for that now. It's 1018 01:07:00,680 --> 01:07:03,800 Speaker 1: super easy. But we've got ears on that too. Then, 1019 01:07:03,840 --> 01:07:05,680 Speaker 1: if you don't feel like hopping on a phone or 1020 01:07:05,680 --> 01:07:07,640 Speaker 1: an app, and you want to go a little more 1021 01:07:07,680 --> 01:07:12,360 Speaker 1: old school, we love emails, send us those ancillery links, 1022 01:07:12,560 --> 01:07:16,280 Speaker 1: send us those pictures. Uh. You can also you can 1023 01:07:16,320 --> 01:07:20,120 Speaker 1: also have a little bit more anonymity in email if necessary, 1024 01:07:20,160 --> 01:07:22,160 Speaker 1: depending on how you do it. All you have to 1025 01:07:22,160 --> 01:07:24,959 Speaker 1: do is shoot us a line where we are conspiracy 1026 01:07:25,040 --> 01:07:46,480 Speaker 1: at i heeart radio dot com. Stuff they don't want 1027 01:07:46,480 --> 01:07:48,840 Speaker 1: you to know is a production of I heart Radio. 1028 01:07:49,160 --> 01:07:51,400 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the i 1029 01:07:51,480 --> 01:07:54,400 Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 1030 01:07:54,440 --> 01:07:55,240 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.