1
00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,520
Speaker 1: Welcome one and all to the Professional Homegirl Podcast. Before

2
00:00:04,519 --> 00:00:06,760
Speaker 1: we begin today's episode, we want to remind you that

3
00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:09,479
Speaker 1: the views and opinions expressed on this podcast are those

4
00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:12,280
Speaker 1: of the host and guests and are intended for educational

5
00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:16,040
Speaker 1: and entertaining purposes. In this safe space, no question is

6
00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:19,360
Speaker 1: off limits because you never know how someone's storyline can

7
00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:22,599
Speaker 1: be your lifeline. The Professional Homegirl Podcast is here to

8
00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:26,320
Speaker 1: celebrate the diverse voices, stories and experiences of women of color,

9
00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:30,240
Speaker 1: providing a platform for authentic and empowering conversations. There will

10
00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:33,680
Speaker 1: be some key king, some tears, but most importantly a

11
00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:38,000
Speaker 1: reminder that tough times don't last, but professional homegirls do

12
00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:57,520
Speaker 1: enjoy the show.

13
00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:03,160
Speaker 2: Hey, professional Homegirls, it's your favorite professional homegirl here, Ebena,

14
00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:08,120
Speaker 2: and we are back with a fire conversation now. In

15
00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:11,440
Speaker 2: this week's episode, my guests and I explore a deeply

16
00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:15,840
Speaker 2: personal story that touches on the nuances of race, love,

17
00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:20,360
Speaker 2: and forgiveness. He shares his powerful journey of growing up

18
00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:24,160
Speaker 2: in a divided America, navigating the challenges of living between

19
00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:28,240
Speaker 2: both black and white worlds. My Guest Award winning memoir

20
00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:32,000
Speaker 2: has earned first place and five separate book contests and

21
00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:36,000
Speaker 2: it dives into the harsh realities of racism while offering

22
00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:41,120
Speaker 2: a hopeful path towards healing and unity. If you're interested

23
00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:43,600
Speaker 2: in reading his book, please email me a hello at

24
00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:47,800
Speaker 2: the phgpodcast dot com because literally, y'all, this has been

25
00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:50,040
Speaker 2: one of my favorite books.

26
00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:51,120
Speaker 1: Now.

27
00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:54,400
Speaker 2: I know you're probably asking, girl, what does this have

28
00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:57,320
Speaker 2: to do with our spooky series? And I tell you now,

29
00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:03,320
Speaker 2: my guest saw his race his grandfather's ghosts several times,

30
00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:08,639
Speaker 2: starting at the age of nine. However, his grandfather's ghosts

31
00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:12,280
Speaker 2: play a huge role in my guest journey towards healing.

32
00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:16,640
Speaker 2: So get ready for an eye opening conversation that not

33
00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:21,680
Speaker 2: only challenged perceptions but also inspires hope, because my journey

34
00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:27,839
Speaker 2: with my grandfather's ghosts, navigating racism and forgiveness starts now.

35
00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:30,840
Speaker 2: A right to my guests, thank you so much for

36
00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:32,920
Speaker 2: being on the show. How you doing, how you feeling.

37
00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:35,080
Speaker 3: I'm feeling good. Thank you for having me.

38
00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:37,600
Speaker 2: Of course, of course, y'all, we are with a world

39
00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:41,600
Speaker 2: renowned journalist on our show, so I am super excited

40
00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:44,000
Speaker 2: to have him on. I was telling him off the

41
00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:45,960
Speaker 2: area that it's not too many books that bring me

42
00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:48,240
Speaker 2: to tears but I feel like your book was just

43
00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:51,560
Speaker 2: so amazing, And one of the things that I really

44
00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:54,000
Speaker 2: loved about your book is, obviously it has so many

45
00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:57,000
Speaker 2: different layers that can resonate with a lot of people,

46
00:02:57,480 --> 00:02:59,680
Speaker 2: but for me, I just love the journey that we

47
00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:03,400
Speaker 2: saw from a young boy feeling abandoned to a man

48
00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:06,680
Speaker 2: who found pride and understanding for both of his parents.

49
00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:10,280
Speaker 3: I think that's a very good way to summarize it.

50
00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:12,959
Speaker 3: I mean, you summarize it neatly because there are a

51
00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:16,880
Speaker 3: lot of layers. In some ways, it's a detective story

52
00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:20,160
Speaker 3: trying to solve a mystery about my missing mom. In

53
00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:22,720
Speaker 3: other ways, it's kind of a coming of age story.

54
00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:27,000
Speaker 3: Then it's kind of a ghost story saying something about

55
00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:30,480
Speaker 3: spirituality and religion. But at heart, I think it's about

56
00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:36,240
Speaker 3: me trying to figure out who my mom was and

57
00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:39,440
Speaker 3: figure out who I am too, And I think that's

58
00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:42,240
Speaker 3: part of the story that appealed to me, is that

59
00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:46,080
Speaker 3: you saw me change as a young man to an

60
00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:48,720
Speaker 3: older man, and I changed the ways I didn't expect,

61
00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:51,440
Speaker 3: And so did this family that I never knew when

62
00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:53,520
Speaker 3: I met them. They changed the ways I never expected.

63
00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:56,880
Speaker 3: So I like stories that showed people not being static,

64
00:03:56,920 --> 00:04:01,760
Speaker 3: but just grow and change, particularly cliche, non expected ways,

65
00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:03,720
Speaker 3: and that's what happened to happen to me.

66
00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:07,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, we need Jordan Peel to make this into a movie.

67
00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:09,480
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I love that.

68
00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:13,120
Speaker 2: What was the most difficult part of writing your story,

69
00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:16,719
Speaker 2: especially we're dealing with such personal and painful family history.

70
00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:20,240
Speaker 3: To be honest, I think that's the most difficult part

71
00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:22,640
Speaker 3: when you write a memoir. You write a story about yourself,

72
00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:29,040
Speaker 3: because the temptation is to hide, to not be as vulnerable,

73
00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:31,960
Speaker 3: to make yourself seem like you were more together than

74
00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:37,200
Speaker 3: you really were at the time, and to just be honest.

75
00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:40,520
Speaker 3: I mean, because there's a temptation when you write to

76
00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:43,200
Speaker 3: tell us stories. You want to please the audience, but

77
00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:45,839
Speaker 3: you have to really tell the truth about what happened.

78
00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:48,800
Speaker 3: So I think to me was trying to remember how

79
00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:52,280
Speaker 3: I really felt in the moment and try to describe

80
00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:54,800
Speaker 3: how it really changed. I think that was the hard part,

81
00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:57,640
Speaker 3: and also just to remember because a lot of the

82
00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:01,280
Speaker 3: things I wrote about were very pain and so I

83
00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:03,560
Speaker 3: repressed a lot of these memories. I heard people say,

84
00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:05,880
Speaker 3: when you write a book, you're gonna remember all these

85
00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:08,160
Speaker 3: things you didn't because you repress stuff. I said, no,

86
00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:11,080
Speaker 3: that's not going to happen to me because I remember everything.

87
00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:13,960
Speaker 3: But it was so true. I remember so many details

88
00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:17,480
Speaker 3: and things that I had blocked out for years, and

89
00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:20,120
Speaker 3: those were the hardest aspects.

90
00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:24,000
Speaker 2: Listen, you were very detail like I feel like when

91
00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:26,279
Speaker 2: I was reading it, I can actually like picture it

92
00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:28,600
Speaker 2: and I don't think I ever been to like Baltimore

93
00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:30,680
Speaker 2: like that for me to remember. Yeah, I think you

94
00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:33,960
Speaker 2: did a really good job. Thank you your upbringing.

95
00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:38,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, I wanted to a fair of people say that

96
00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:40,360
Speaker 3: they felt like they were in a movie and then

97
00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:44,479
Speaker 3: they sitting next to me and seeing my family and

98
00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:47,680
Speaker 3: seeing my neighborhood and all those things. But yeah, I

99
00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:50,080
Speaker 3: wanted to do that. We live in a very visual culture,

100
00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:51,760
Speaker 3: so I wanted to story and I have a lot

101
00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:54,760
Speaker 3: of vivid details so you could feel like you were there.

102
00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:58,640
Speaker 2: Now, how have your relationships with your family changed since

103
00:05:58,640 --> 00:05:59,560
Speaker 2: the release of your.

104
00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:03,440
Speaker 3: Book, Well, you know my family. It's strange, it hasn't

105
00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:07,320
Speaker 3: really changed that much because the book was I did

106
00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:10,120
Speaker 3: all the work pretty much in the book to come

107
00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:12,240
Speaker 3: the terms with the white members of my family who

108
00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:15,640
Speaker 3: didn't want anything to do with me because I'm black.

109
00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:18,640
Speaker 3: You know, my father's black, and so all the work

110
00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:21,919
Speaker 3: to kind of find common ground with them to become

111
00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:23,760
Speaker 3: a genuine family, all that was done in the book,

112
00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:28,560
Speaker 3: So we're good. I was worried about how, for example,

113
00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:32,520
Speaker 3: my mother's sister would react to the book, and she

114
00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:36,400
Speaker 3: is my mother's sister, for people who don't know, was

115
00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:40,520
Speaker 3: a woman who strengthly very racist. It was what she

116
00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:43,800
Speaker 3: grew up with. It's all she knew. And she didn't

117
00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:46,000
Speaker 3: want to meet me, and I didn't meet her until

118
00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:48,440
Speaker 3: my mid twenties, and when I did meet her, she

119
00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:52,320
Speaker 3: would not admit to her racism. And so part of

120
00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:54,640
Speaker 3: the power to me of the story is to show

121
00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:58,520
Speaker 3: this person who you felt like, was this irredeemable racist

122
00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:00,559
Speaker 3: who could never change you just see how she changed

123
00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:01,080
Speaker 3: over the years.

124
00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:01,560
Speaker 4: Yeah.

125
00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:03,599
Speaker 3: I was worried about how she was going to react

126
00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:06,600
Speaker 3: to how I described how she used to be. But

127
00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:09,000
Speaker 3: she was fine with it. She said, I'm glad you

128
00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:14,000
Speaker 3: were honest. So I didn't really have any problems with people.

129
00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:16,880
Speaker 3: My family. They love reading a story. Is she still

130
00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:23,000
Speaker 3: alive my mother's sister, Yeah, she's still alive. Oh nice, nice, Yeah, Yeah,

131
00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:25,440
Speaker 3: I have a great relationship with her. That's one of

132
00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:27,840
Speaker 3: the That's one of my favorite parts of the book,

133
00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:32,960
Speaker 3: when just showing to change in our relationship because I'm

134
00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:35,640
Speaker 3: a journalist at seeing it, so I write a lot

135
00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:38,960
Speaker 3: about race, and if you look at this election and

136
00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:41,680
Speaker 3: what's happening in this country in the last couple of years,

137
00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:45,080
Speaker 3: it seems like our racial divisions are kind of pretty

138
00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:48,360
Speaker 3: much intractable. They can't nothing's ever going to change. People

139
00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:51,360
Speaker 3: are going to do. But my aunt, my mother's sister,

140
00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:54,640
Speaker 3: is living proof that's not true because she I never

141
00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:56,520
Speaker 3: thought she was going to change, and she did.

142
00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:59,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I think you did a great job because

143
00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:01,920
Speaker 2: obviously we don't condone racism, but you did a really

144
00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:05,280
Speaker 2: good job with humanizing her and allowing a space all

145
00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:09,720
Speaker 2: he's smiling. That means you, yeah, yeah, because I feel like,

146
00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:13,000
Speaker 2: you know, we have so much in common then when

147
00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:14,880
Speaker 2: it comes to certain things, and I feel like you

148
00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:17,000
Speaker 2: did a really good job of humanizing her and allowing

149
00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:19,840
Speaker 2: us to see why she became the way that she became,

150
00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:21,520
Speaker 2: and also a lot of things she didn't have a

151
00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:22,720
Speaker 2: choice when it came to racism.

152
00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:25,440
Speaker 3: If that makes sense, it does. I mean a lot

153
00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:29,720
Speaker 3: of racism is they say, it's kind of caught, not

154
00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:34,800
Speaker 3: taught you work from your environment grow up. You grew

155
00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:37,040
Speaker 3: up with these racial attitudes that you often get from

156
00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:39,280
Speaker 3: people you love and respect, like your family members. So

157
00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:42,720
Speaker 3: she didn't know any better. And one of the things

158
00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:45,840
Speaker 3: you said about her, me humanizing her made me smile

159
00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:49,080
Speaker 3: because that was really important to me. I had to

160
00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:51,680
Speaker 3: see that. There was a line in the book where

161
00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:54,920
Speaker 3: I said that what was in her was also in me.

162
00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:55,720
Speaker 4: Yeah.

163
00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:58,319
Speaker 3: That was hard for me to say, but I grew

164
00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:01,600
Speaker 3: up in this environment and then this neighborhood where everybody

165
00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:05,320
Speaker 3: disliked or hated white people, and I absorbed that even

166
00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:07,920
Speaker 3: though my mom's white, right, So I was like, she

167
00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:09,800
Speaker 3: did the same thing, just in a different way. She

168
00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:12,520
Speaker 3: just absorbed what she knew. And when I began to

169
00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:14,400
Speaker 3: see her as a human and not as this kind

170
00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:17,800
Speaker 3: of monster, that really helped us connect and really grow.

171
00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:20,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, and she was also being stuborn because I was like,

172
00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:22,000
Speaker 2: come on, now, girl, you notice is racist.

173
00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:25,120
Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, but you know, it's hard to admit that

174
00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:29,080
Speaker 3: kind of thing about yourself. I mean to admit that

175
00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:32,959
Speaker 3: you think of the guilt she was carrying on her

176
00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:36,200
Speaker 3: whole family had rejected me, my brother, and then she

177
00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:39,000
Speaker 3: meets us in the mid twenties, and you know, she

178
00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:41,240
Speaker 3: realized that she had nothing to do with our life.

179
00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:43,760
Speaker 3: And it's hard, I think for a lot of white

180
00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:48,360
Speaker 3: folks to admit that you have racist attitudes is almost

181
00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:51,679
Speaker 3: like admitting that you're evil or bigger than instead of

182
00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:55,800
Speaker 3: understanding that to be human is to have all these

183
00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:59,080
Speaker 3: different biases, whether they're racial, it could be other type

184
00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:02,600
Speaker 3: of biases about people with money, different religion. So I

185
00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:04,920
Speaker 3: think she didn't quite have the vocabulary to kind of

186
00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:09,439
Speaker 3: give grace to herself to say, hey, you know, you

187
00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:11,559
Speaker 3: you're just being human and you can admit to it.

188
00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:12,880
Speaker 4: Yeah.

189
00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:15,880
Speaker 2: Now, you have spent your entire career writing about race

190
00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:18,800
Speaker 2: and religion. So how did share your story feel different

191
00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:21,559
Speaker 2: from other works? And what new understandings did you gain

192
00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:22,400
Speaker 2: about yourself?

193
00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:26,079
Speaker 3: Well, that's a good question. Well, it was different because

194
00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:28,840
Speaker 3: it was about me and it was it was personal

195
00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:32,920
Speaker 3: to admit, for example, that my mom had a mental

196
00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:35,640
Speaker 3: illness and that the first place I met her was

197
00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:39,160
Speaker 3: a mental institution and nobody would tell me, you know,

198
00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:43,400
Speaker 3: only until I got there. That's very hard to talk

199
00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:47,160
Speaker 3: about that, and to talk about the kind of racial

200
00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:50,640
Speaker 3: hatred that was in my mother's family. I was all personal.

201
00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:53,120
Speaker 3: It was I couldn't be detached like I am as

202
00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:56,040
Speaker 3: a journalist, like I'm writing about person. I'm writing about

203
00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:58,959
Speaker 3: my own family, people I love. And secondly, how did

204
00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:02,679
Speaker 3: it change me? I think well, it changed me in

205
00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:05,920
Speaker 3: a lot of ways. I think one is it it

206
00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:10,200
Speaker 3: makes me more hopeful about people, how people you never

207
00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:12,760
Speaker 3: think can change can really change. And it makes me

208
00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:16,000
Speaker 3: feel hopeful and a weird way about the country, about

209
00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:20,840
Speaker 3: our feet. So yeah, it maybe those are the big changes.

210
00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:24,720
Speaker 2: I feel like mixed mixed children have it hard.

211
00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:26,920
Speaker 3: You do. Why do you think that I do?

212
00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:30,040
Speaker 2: Because I feel like when mixed kids or mixed people,

213
00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:32,319
Speaker 2: I feel like, either you too black for the white

214
00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:34,199
Speaker 2: people or you too white for the black people.

215
00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:37,480
Speaker 3: Well, that's a good point, and that's like what they

216
00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:41,800
Speaker 3: call the you're evoking the tragic mulatto myth, right right,

217
00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:46,240
Speaker 3: And that used to be very much the case when

218
00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:48,120
Speaker 3: And that's part of the what I talk about in

219
00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:51,760
Speaker 3: my book is how so much attitudes really shifted in

220
00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:54,040
Speaker 3: my lifetime. So I'm much older than you. I'm born

221
00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:56,800
Speaker 3: in the mid sixties, and when I was born, what

222
00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:00,320
Speaker 3: you described is true. If you would buy race, you

223
00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:02,920
Speaker 3: were kind of invisible in culture. There was no Obama,

224
00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:05,880
Speaker 3: there was no Kamalain Harris, there was no Jordan Peel,

225
00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:08,800
Speaker 3: and you were, in a sense the product of an

226
00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:13,199
Speaker 3: illegal union. Interracial marriage was illegal, but also any kind

227
00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:18,840
Speaker 3: of interracial intimacy between white Yeah, so it used to

228
00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:21,320
Speaker 3: be that way. But part of what I believe is

229
00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:25,720
Speaker 3: that people like my mom and my dad created this

230
00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:29,040
Speaker 3: world where you can have Obama as president, where Kamala

231
00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:31,880
Speaker 3: Harris makes to me president, where I don't think it's

232
00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:34,480
Speaker 3: a stigma now to be biracial. Look at Patrick Mahon,

233
00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:37,920
Speaker 3: Jordan Peel. I don't think a lot of biracial people

234
00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:40,040
Speaker 3: feel like they have to go into the colonset anymore.

235
00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:42,679
Speaker 3: In fact, I would say that if you look at

236
00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:45,439
Speaker 3: the commercials, you see all the interracial couples, the biracial

237
00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:51,680
Speaker 3: children almost fashionable now to be. So it's a different world.

238
00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:52,679
Speaker 3: How old are you?

239
00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:55,119
Speaker 2: Well, I know I look like I'm in my twenties,

240
00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:57,040
Speaker 2: but I need thirty eight in February.

241
00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:00,480
Speaker 3: Okay, I would never guess, but I look younger. You

242
00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:05,120
Speaker 3: look way younger. I thought, you know, you're mid twenties

243
00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:07,760
Speaker 3: or something, But like say, somebody in their mid twenties

244
00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:10,560
Speaker 3: and all biracial. I think about this. Sometimes I'll be

245
00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:14,199
Speaker 3: out and I'll see a biracial couple of their children,

246
00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:17,640
Speaker 3: and I say to myself, they have no idea how

247
00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:20,760
Speaker 3: much easier it is for them than it was for

248
00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:22,720
Speaker 3: me or Obama or Kamala Harris.

249
00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:24,520
Speaker 2: I think about that too, And I'm not even biracial.

250
00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:25,559
Speaker 3: You do.

251
00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:27,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think about a lot of things he says

252
00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:30,560
Speaker 2: that goes on within our world now, And I just

253
00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:32,400
Speaker 2: think about like, you know, cause I read a lot

254
00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:34,000
Speaker 2: and I'm starting to get more into history, and I

255
00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:35,839
Speaker 2: just be like wow, Like I just feel like, back

256
00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:37,320
Speaker 2: in the day, you could not do this, Like a

257
00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:39,240
Speaker 2: lot of things we do now is a luxury and

258
00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:39,920
Speaker 2: it's a blessing.

259
00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:42,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I agree. And one of the things I

260
00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:45,160
Speaker 3: try to point out in the book is that a

261
00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:47,920
Speaker 3: lot of this took place. You know, the kind of

262
00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:52,080
Speaker 3: freedoms we have is not because of a charismatic politician

263
00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:55,520
Speaker 3: or a judge, but because of ordinary actions by people

264
00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:59,320
Speaker 3: like my mom or my dad. A tremendous risk to

265
00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:01,760
Speaker 3: not only a black man, but to give birth to

266
00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:05,280
Speaker 3: two black boys in the mid sixties, she defied her

267
00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:08,280
Speaker 3: a family in her community, but people taking those kinds

268
00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:11,560
Speaker 3: of steps like she did back then. That cleared the

269
00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:14,920
Speaker 3: way for this world we live in now, where Kamala

270
00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:20,600
Speaker 3: Harris could be could be president in a month or two.

271
00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:29,120
Speaker 2: So, as you gotten older, was it hard for you

272
00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:30,920
Speaker 2: to navigate between both worlds?

273
00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:35,560
Speaker 3: No, it got easier. I mean, because you know, when

274
00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:37,720
Speaker 3: you're younger, you're trying to sort out who you are.

275
00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:43,560
Speaker 3: As I got older, it became easy. First of all,

276
00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:48,680
Speaker 3: you know, race is a tricky thing because most black

277
00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:53,760
Speaker 3: people are mixed. I mean, you know, so that's a

278
00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:55,440
Speaker 3: tricky thing to you to say. So I don't really

279
00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:57,920
Speaker 3: think I'm really exceptional in that sense. You know, even

280
00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:00,520
Speaker 3: though my mom was white. You just look at us.

281
00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:05,120
Speaker 3: We are mixed people. And so I think understanding that

282
00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:07,120
Speaker 3: helped me when I think, also, I don't really define

283
00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:10,440
Speaker 3: my identity by race, but by other things, And as

284
00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:14,040
Speaker 3: I got older, that helped me deal with that better.

285
00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:17,160
Speaker 2: Now, you mentioned that the church you joined as a

286
00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:20,360
Speaker 2: college student was also multiracial. So do you feel like

287
00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:23,720
Speaker 2: that experience of being in a faith community embrace diversity

288
00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:26,640
Speaker 2: impact your approach to issues of race and resolution.

289
00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:31,760
Speaker 3: No, it's huge, because first of all, that when I

290
00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:35,200
Speaker 3: joined that multiracial church. It was the first time I

291
00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:39,800
Speaker 3: was ever in an interracial community. I had never been

292
00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:43,680
Speaker 3: friends with a white person before. I am vulnerable with

293
00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:46,840
Speaker 3: the white person. So when I was in that community,

294
00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:50,520
Speaker 3: it helped me. It kind of broke ground, and it

295
00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:52,600
Speaker 3: kind of taught me these type of skills that I

296
00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:56,160
Speaker 3: would need that when I met my mother's family, those

297
00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:59,160
Speaker 3: same skills to build a bridge to them. So it

298
00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:02,200
Speaker 3: kind of prepared the way. I mean, you know, it

299
00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:04,880
Speaker 3: just helped me understand, like, not all white people are racist,

300
00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:08,000
Speaker 3: not all white people. Yeah, and it's also it helped

301
00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:10,360
Speaker 3: me get over some of the anger I felt to

302
00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:12,800
Speaker 3: a lot of white people into my white family for

303
00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:15,760
Speaker 3: rejecting me. I begin to see how more complex people are.

304
00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:18,360
Speaker 3: So that's one of the things. We don't really have

305
00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:21,880
Speaker 3: them any spaces left in this country where you have

306
00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:25,680
Speaker 3: a chance to be in a friendship or relationship with

307
00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:29,800
Speaker 3: somebody of another race, another class, another political perspective. We're

308
00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:34,400
Speaker 3: also slowed and isolated now, So that that church was

309
00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:35,280
Speaker 3: really important.

310
00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:36,440
Speaker 4: Yeah.

311
00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:38,760
Speaker 2: You know, I have a white best friend. When I say,

312
00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:41,960
Speaker 2: she is white, blonde hair, blue, white like, And when

313
00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:44,120
Speaker 2: I was growing up, I spent Thanksgiving with her family

314
00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:46,720
Speaker 2: and her family is like white white, and I agree.

315
00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:49,840
Speaker 2: I think it does teaches you different things about other

316
00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:52,360
Speaker 2: races and also lets you know that everybody's not a racist.

317
00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:54,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, did you ever believe that?

318
00:16:57,040 --> 00:16:59,600
Speaker 2: I didn't believe that. But I think that I've been

319
00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:02,320
Speaker 2: exposed to a lot of things that made me question

320
00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:05,800
Speaker 2: certain things. And I think especially in the recent years,

321
00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:08,600
Speaker 2: with you know, seeing black people being killed and we're

322
00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:11,280
Speaker 2: like seeing in real time, I think it kind of

323
00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:14,480
Speaker 2: makes me, I don't know, it makes me question a

324
00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:15,119
Speaker 2: lot of things.

325
00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:19,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, you know, living in New York, you're exposed

326
00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:22,240
Speaker 3: to so many different people. Yeah, but New York is

327
00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:26,600
Speaker 3: a little different than the South, though it's a lot different. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

328
00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:30,000
Speaker 3: I would think because it's so different that it would

329
00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:33,040
Speaker 3: be harder for you to develop these kind of blanket

330
00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:36,119
Speaker 3: assumptions about all types of people because you're constantly exposed

331
00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:37,240
Speaker 3: to different people in New York.

332
00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:39,760
Speaker 2: I am, but I feel like in New York because

333
00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:42,960
Speaker 2: it's so broad and it's so many different type of cultures,

334
00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:46,399
Speaker 2: Like I don't really experience racism in New York as

335
00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:48,240
Speaker 2: I would in the South. And I was born in

336
00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:50,320
Speaker 2: New York, but I was raised in Tennessee. So like,

337
00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:53,560
Speaker 2: oh yeah, so I have like the best of both worlds,

338
00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:55,879
Speaker 2: and like it's sometimes when I go home in the South,

339
00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:57,959
Speaker 2: like it's not racist, like how it used to be.

340
00:17:58,000 --> 00:17:59,560
Speaker 2: But there's been times when I was a kid where

341
00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:01,840
Speaker 2: I used to be like you can you can you

342
00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:02,479
Speaker 2: can feel it?

343
00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:05,200
Speaker 3: You know. Yeah, what part of Tennessee?

344
00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:06,440
Speaker 2: Memphis?

345
00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:10,960
Speaker 3: Oh, Memphis, I've been there, Okay.

346
00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:11,200
Speaker 2: Like we have a good time in Memphis. The way

347
00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:11,560
Speaker 2: you smell.

348
00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:15,000
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, no, I have good memories of Memphis. Yeah.

349
00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:18,880
Speaker 3: That's a good buddy miles from Memphis. Yeah.

350
00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:21,719
Speaker 2: Now, another thing that I loved about your story is

351
00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:25,119
Speaker 2: you also your book also serve as a reflection of

352
00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:28,399
Speaker 2: American history. So how did you navigate the balance between

353
00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:31,520
Speaker 2: sharing your own experiences and we even in the societal

354
00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:33,119
Speaker 2: and political movements of the time.

355
00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:35,280
Speaker 3: Oh that's a good writer's question.

356
00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:38,200
Speaker 2: Listen, why I came on my a game for you?

357
00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:39,240
Speaker 2: I was not playing no.

358
00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:43,960
Speaker 3: Games, thank you. I think I was able to do

359
00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:47,800
Speaker 3: it because my experience as a journalist. So when you're

360
00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:50,000
Speaker 3: writing about race in this country, you can't help but

361
00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:53,480
Speaker 3: have a lot of experience writing about history. So I

362
00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:57,640
Speaker 3: wanted to always place my story some kind of historical

363
00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:01,159
Speaker 3: context so people could understand that it wasn't just an

364
00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:05,080
Speaker 3: isolated story. My story is part of these larger changes.

365
00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:07,639
Speaker 3: And the ballence I tried to find is to just

366
00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:10,879
Speaker 3: kind of sprinkle the history through the story. Don't bogg

367
00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:13,679
Speaker 3: it down with a lot of history, but just a

368
00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:17,399
Speaker 3: little bit to give some perspective, just enough to so

369
00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:19,960
Speaker 3: the reader could understand. But the understand that the heart

370
00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:23,200
Speaker 3: of the story is not the history, but the people.

371
00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:27,359
Speaker 3: But the history is you more appreciation. For example, if

372
00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:32,359
Speaker 3: when I talk about the history of these antimessgenation laws,

373
00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:37,000
Speaker 3: these laws that said that black and white people couldn't married.

374
00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:40,560
Speaker 3: I told a story about Herry Bellafonte, how in nineteen

375
00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:44,000
Speaker 3: sixty eight he's singing a duet with his white singer

376
00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:47,679
Speaker 3: on the show and she touches his arm. There's this

377
00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:50,720
Speaker 3: huge international uproar because a white woman touched the arm

378
00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:54,520
Speaker 3: of a black man. A little history, but when I

379
00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:57,320
Speaker 3: tell that story, it helps explain the kind of world

380
00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:01,240
Speaker 3: that my parents live then, So that's try to remember,

381
00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:03,480
Speaker 3: just hit that history a little bit and just keep

382
00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:04,240
Speaker 3: the story moving.

383
00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:06,520
Speaker 2: But you know what I just thought about, not only

384
00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:08,600
Speaker 2: did you share the history, but you also share the

385
00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:10,800
Speaker 2: growth of people of the human race.

386
00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:14,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's part of the optimism that's in the book,

387
00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:18,560
Speaker 3: and I wanted to show that. Like, you know, I

388
00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:20,639
Speaker 3: read the comments from people who read the book, like

389
00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:23,679
Speaker 3: the readers, and a lot of people say it's uplifting,

390
00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:27,159
Speaker 3: they feel good, and that's really good to me. I

391
00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:29,600
Speaker 3: mean that's I think it's really hard to write a

392
00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:32,080
Speaker 3: story about race that feels uplifting right now.

393
00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:32,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm telling you.

394
00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:38,920
Speaker 3: Genuinely uplifting, not like sappy Hallmark card forced uplifting. It's

395
00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:42,280
Speaker 3: all real, and so yeah, I wanted to do that

396
00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:44,440
Speaker 3: because I feel like we have to tell those those

397
00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:48,000
Speaker 3: type of stories. If we don't watch we don't we

398
00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:49,879
Speaker 3: don't really have a chance as a country if we

399
00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:51,720
Speaker 3: don't tell these type stories.

400
00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:54,879
Speaker 2: Right now, if I'm not mistaken, I also believe you

401
00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:57,760
Speaker 2: mentioned that you cover a lot of the rise of Nwa.

402
00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:01,520
Speaker 3: No, not just a little bit. Yeah, I was in

403
00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:05,960
Speaker 3: LA when they were when they came into being, when

404
00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:09,440
Speaker 3: they whole gangster wrap, the whole birth of it, And yeah,

405
00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:11,520
Speaker 3: I do remember talking about La a lot, and LA

406
00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:15,320
Speaker 3: taught me a lot about racism. I mean, because what

407
00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:19,000
Speaker 3: I did is I covered gangs out there. This is

408
00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:22,479
Speaker 3: probably before your time, but it was really bad in

409
00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:25,119
Speaker 3: the late eighties, early nineties. It was just awful. And

410
00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:28,240
Speaker 3: that's when I went out there, and that's when I

411
00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:30,840
Speaker 3: kind of ran into Nwa and all those folks.

412
00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:35,080
Speaker 2: Do you think NWA played a role in reshaping mainstream

413
00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:36,280
Speaker 2: perceptions of black men.

414
00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:40,680
Speaker 3: Well, that's a heavy question and I can't say I'm

415
00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:46,440
Speaker 3: a hip hop expert. I don't think they reshaped perceptions

416
00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:51,000
Speaker 3: of a black men. I think they reinforced certain black men,

417
00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:54,040
Speaker 3: and that is the perception of black men is being violent.

418
00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:58,040
Speaker 3: You know a lot of gangster. I think it reinforced

419
00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:01,320
Speaker 3: those perceptions of black men as being like hyper criminal.

420
00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:02,679
Speaker 3: To be blunt about it.

421
00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:07,000
Speaker 2: Mmm. And also you gave us a flex because you

422
00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:10,280
Speaker 2: went to school with Madam VP Kamala Harris.

423
00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:14,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's funny. I was. I got contacted on Facebook

424
00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:18,000
Speaker 3: today by one of her good friends whom God. Yeah,

425
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:20,360
Speaker 3: it's so weird. I never met her when I was there.

426
00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:22,959
Speaker 3: I think I saw her on campus, but a lot

427
00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:26,320
Speaker 3: of her close friends, I'm close friends all. I'm friends

428
00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:29,359
Speaker 3: with some of them, I'm close friends, so people in

429
00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:33,480
Speaker 3: common And yeah, that I went to school with somebody

430
00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:36,520
Speaker 3: who might be the president. It's pretty that's so cool.

431
00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:39,480
Speaker 3: But you know, at Howard, you know she's she's interesting

432
00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:42,720
Speaker 3: because at Howard, you know she's bi racial. As people

433
00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:45,600
Speaker 3: talk about. There were a lot of biracial students there

434
00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:49,160
Speaker 3: in the mid eighties when we went there, but nobody

435
00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:52,399
Speaker 3: really talked about it. You know, it was open about

436
00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:54,800
Speaker 3: like you know, so, yeah, Kama was there. A lot

437
00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:55,720
Speaker 3: of people like her were there.

438
00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:57,200
Speaker 2: You think she's gonna win.

439
00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:05,800
Speaker 3: I think it's famely close. I think I think though

440
00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:09,000
Speaker 3: she has momentum. If if I would put it this way,

441
00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:12,679
Speaker 3: I think she has a slightly better chance of winning.

442
00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:18,720
Speaker 3: I think she has momentum. But it's unfortunate. You know

443
00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:21,000
Speaker 3: that it's going to come down to just a couple

444
00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:24,760
Speaker 3: of states, like in New York. It's almost like your

445
00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:29,520
Speaker 3: vote doesn't count, Like I'm from Maryland. If Maryland it

446
00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:32,080
Speaker 3: wouldn't even quite count. But yeah, what do you think.

447
00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:35,399
Speaker 2: I don't know, man, I think it's going to be

448
00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:38,879
Speaker 2: real close. Yeah, I think I really do hope that

449
00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:40,840
Speaker 2: she wins. Though I think by her winning, I think

450
00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:43,639
Speaker 2: it's going to do a lot for multiple reasons. So

451
00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:47,240
Speaker 2: and hobnoutly she's just a better candidate. So, but I

452
00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:48,760
Speaker 2: don't know. I think it's going to be close. I

453
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:51,119
Speaker 2: think it's I don't put nothing past that.

454
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:51,400
Speaker 4: Man.

455
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:54,040
Speaker 3: Have you run into a lot of black men who

456
00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:55,200
Speaker 3: said they're going to vote for Trump?

457
00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:57,040
Speaker 2: I have, I have to.

458
00:23:57,640 --> 00:23:59,800
Speaker 3: I think a lot of black men have a problem

459
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:06,879
Speaker 3: with women in power, sexism issue, and so John, Okay,

460
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:09,080
Speaker 3: I don't know. I just just my guess. I might

461
00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:12,560
Speaker 3: be wrong, but I think sexism is is it plays

462
00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:15,159
Speaker 3: the part and why they won't vote for her, but

463
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 3: they can't come out and say it. They'll say other things.

464
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 3: But also thinking in an odd way, I don't this

465
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:26,880
Speaker 3: sounds strange, but Trump's bomb bast his bravado, his whole

466
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:33,560
Speaker 3: psu resonates with men who love that kind of macho posturing, right,

467
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,160
Speaker 3: you know, and love that. I mean when he when

468
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:40,320
Speaker 3: Trump brags about his wealth and his and how he

469
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:43,280
Speaker 3: ridicules his enemies and this is his opponents. Is he

470
00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:46,200
Speaker 3: looking much different than some black hip hop or who

471
00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:49,359
Speaker 3: says the same stuff. So it's I think it's just

472
00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:51,560
Speaker 3: on that level too with some black men.

473
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:54,200
Speaker 2: I mean, I do agree. I do believe that there

474
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,200
Speaker 2: are a lot of men black men included that don't

475
00:24:57,280 --> 00:24:57,720
Speaker 2: like women.

476
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:02,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, I yeah, power over and also in power.

477
00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:03,879
Speaker 2: But I think they just don't like women period. I

478
00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:07,240
Speaker 2: don't think they like women absolutely. I don't think that

479
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:10,600
Speaker 2: men like when women are confident. I don't think that

480
00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:14,000
Speaker 2: men like women who speaks up for themselves. I think

481
00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:15,800
Speaker 2: men have a problem with and I'm not saying this

482
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:17,720
Speaker 2: about all men, because I do think there are some

483
00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:22,080
Speaker 2: good men that actually encourage and support women, especially Black women.

484
00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:24,960
Speaker 2: But I also think that you have those that really

485
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:28,360
Speaker 2: support Trump because that's who that's who, that's who they are,

486
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:29,280
Speaker 2: that's who they want to be.

487
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 3: Like, I can see that.

488
00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:34,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, so let's see man, but not the black men

489
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:39,600
Speaker 2: that listen to my show because they support everyone. Now,

490
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:42,000
Speaker 2: you grew up in you grew up doing a transformative

491
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:45,119
Speaker 2: period in West Baltimore, which face a lot of racial

492
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:48,760
Speaker 2: tension and economic challenges. So how did your environment shake

493
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:51,520
Speaker 2: your understanding of race and identity during that time.

494
00:25:53,080 --> 00:26:00,919
Speaker 3: Well, it's shaped it in part because there was no

495
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:06,320
Speaker 3: room in my world for people like me at the time,

496
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:09,800
Speaker 3: you know, like I said, with a closeted biracial person,

497
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:15,840
Speaker 3: and so many people really dislike white people, so I

498
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:18,640
Speaker 3: couldn't be open about it. But one of the things

499
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:21,439
Speaker 3: that really shaped me, how my environment shaped me, is

500
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:24,639
Speaker 3: it taught me that what I said earlier, that so

501
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:28,440
Speaker 3: much of racism is something that you kind of absorb.

502
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 3: You don't even know it. Nobody went around and said, hey,

503
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:36,199
Speaker 3: white people hate your family, hate your mom. But it

504
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:38,240
Speaker 3: was like the humidity in the airge you just kind

505
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:40,680
Speaker 3: of absorbed it. So that's one of the things I

506
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:44,919
Speaker 3: remember about my environment is that how you can develop

507
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:48,480
Speaker 3: these incredibly hateful attitudes and you're not even aware of it.

508
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,239
Speaker 3: You know that you So that was part of it.

509
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:55,400
Speaker 3: But also what it taught me also about racism is that,

510
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:00,359
Speaker 3: you know, just part of it was like, can I

511
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 3: say what I say is that part of the heart

512
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 3: of racism is not so much hatred but indifference. We

513
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,200
Speaker 3: were just locked in this really poor neighborhoods with these

514
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:16,520
Speaker 3: awful schools and the rest of Baltimore, the white neighborhoods,

515
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:20,720
Speaker 3: they were indifferent. We didn't even exist, We were invisible,

516
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 3: and so I remember being feeling that very much. So

517
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 3: and so therefore current all that kind of feelings around

518
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:30,360
Speaker 3: in me made it even more difficult when I suddenly

519
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 3: had to meet white members of my family and say, Okay,

520
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:35,879
Speaker 3: how do we become a family, How do we forgive

521
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:37,200
Speaker 3: one another? How do we move ahead?

522
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:38,800
Speaker 4: Yeah?

523
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 2: Another layer in your story is obviously mental illness, And

524
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 2: to this day, mental illness still carries a stigma which

525
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:48,880
Speaker 2: I don't even understand. How But how did discovering your

526
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:52,879
Speaker 2: mother's struggles with mental health change your perception of mental illness?

527
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:57,520
Speaker 2: Because I feel like when I was growing up, mental

528
00:27:57,520 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 2: health was like taboo, So I can only imagine how

529
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:01,040
Speaker 2: it was when you were growing up.

530
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it was. Uh in some ways somebody was

531
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:10,080
Speaker 3: mentally ill, In some ways they were more stigmatized than

532
00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:11,240
Speaker 3: somebody was black.

533
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:14,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's a fact.

534
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:19,160
Speaker 3: Yeah. I think in my mother's melted illness, what it did,

535
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:22,520
Speaker 3: it shapped me in a lot of ways. One is

536
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:26,480
Speaker 3: that I had never it changed my perception to white

537
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:29,960
Speaker 3: people when I met her, because I had always seen

538
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:33,879
Speaker 3: white peoples like these all powerful people have it all together,

539
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:36,440
Speaker 3: they don't care about us, they can't relate to the

540
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:40,280
Speaker 3: suffering of black people. So when I met her, here's

541
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 3: this person who's been in a mental institution most of

542
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 3: her life, has tremendous suffering. I had never seen that

543
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:50,040
Speaker 3: type of vulnerability, that fragility and a white person before.

544
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:54,719
Speaker 3: So her mental illness changed my kind of weird way

545
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,719
Speaker 3: changed our perception of white people, Like they can suffer

546
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 3: just as much, and I don't like compare suffer, but

547
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 3: they can suffer tremendously, not just like but I think

548
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:07,480
Speaker 3: just like us. Yeah. Yeah, And then you know, mental illness,

549
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 3: it really it prevented me from seeing my mom for

550
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:16,360
Speaker 3: a long time, but prevented me from seeing what an

551
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:22,040
Speaker 3: incredibly resilient, courageous woman she was because I could only

552
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:24,720
Speaker 3: see the illness. For many years, I couldn't see her,

553
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 3: so it took me a long time to see that

554
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 3: part of her that enabled her to defy her family

555
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 3: and marry a blackman, that that was still there. Yeah,

556
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:38,800
Speaker 3: So I had to learn how to meet her where

557
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:42,160
Speaker 3: she was, not where I thought she should be. So

558
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 3: that's how Melton illness kind of shape my perception. I

559
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 3: don't know if that makes sense.

560
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:47,800
Speaker 2: No, it does, because there was a part in your

561
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:50,920
Speaker 2: book when you were speaking to your wife and you

562
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:53,600
Speaker 2: was like, does it seem like I'm different with her?

563
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 2: Like I'm hugging her, embracing her more, And your wife

564
00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 2: was like, yeah, and you was like, why do you

565
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:01,000
Speaker 2: think so? And she was like, because you're finally starting

566
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 2: to see her.

567
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 3: And I was like, you read the book, you noticed stuff.

568
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:09,720
Speaker 2: When I tell you, I really enjoyed your book because

569
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:12,160
Speaker 2: you know, I have my own trauma with my own

570
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 2: family and stuff, and you know, I feel like when

571
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:17,280
Speaker 2: I read these stories because I love reading autobiographies and memoirs,

572
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:19,040
Speaker 2: and like, you know, when you get a glimpse into

573
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:21,280
Speaker 2: other people lives, you realize that you're not the only

574
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 2: one to go through things. And when you look at

575
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 2: other people who've been through way worship than you have,

576
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:28,800
Speaker 2: it's like, why can't you forgive the people that hurt you?

577
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:29,640
Speaker 2: If this person can?

578
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 4: You know?

579
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you for that. Yeah, I remember. It's funny

580
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 3: you mentioned that thing because I wrote about it this

581
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:38,120
Speaker 3: past week. I wrote this essay about that whole thing,

582
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:40,440
Speaker 3: and that was really important to me. She said, Now,

583
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 3: she said, now you really see her.

584
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 4: Yeah.

585
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 3: It took me, like it took me like thirty years

586
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 3: or so. Yeah, but that's the thing. You see somebody

587
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 3: with a severe mental illness, it's easy to forget that's

588
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 3: a person there. All you see all the symptoms and

589
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 3: all these things. Ye, So, yeah, that was the last

590
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,920
Speaker 3: thing I wrote in the whole book was I said, Mom,

591
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:06,520
Speaker 3: now I finally see you. That was kind of like

592
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:08,400
Speaker 3: kind of the whole journey of the book. I went

593
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:11,360
Speaker 3: from being ashamed that my mom was white, being a

594
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 3: shame that she had a mental illness too, finally feeling

595
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:18,120
Speaker 3: pride that I was her son, that I could be

596
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 3: the son of such an amazing, resilient woman.

597
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 4: Yeah.

598
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:24,200
Speaker 2: Now, how did the mental illness on your mother's side

599
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 2: of the family begin to manifest in her life before

600
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 2: she was institutionalized.

601
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:32,320
Speaker 3: That's a good question. I heard stories from her sister

602
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 3: that as early when she was early, when she was

603
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:40,800
Speaker 3: like a teenager, maybe fifteen or so, that she would

604
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 3: have a really violent temper. At one point she got

605
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:48,320
Speaker 3: mad at their father and actually pulled a knife on

606
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:54,240
Speaker 3: her and so, but my father didn't see any of

607
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:56,480
Speaker 3: that when he first met her. And if you remember

608
00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:58,600
Speaker 3: in the book, a lot of my father's family didn't

609
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 3: see it. They saw it, that's something different. They saw

610
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 3: this woman who was really charismatic, funny, witty. And I

611
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 3: talked about a picture of her that I have when

612
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:09,720
Speaker 3: she was like twenty years old. You look at that

613
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 3: picture of her, she's so vibrant and so alert, but

614
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 3: there were signs early on that something might be off.

615
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:24,920
Speaker 3: And see that's the mystery, like if if she had

616
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:28,960
Speaker 3: more help, more intervention, could it have been managed. Yeah,

617
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 3: we don't know, because what I didn't put in the

618
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:35,320
Speaker 3: book is something I discovered later is that her father

619
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:37,280
Speaker 3: was the one who placed her in the mental institution.

620
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:40,720
Speaker 3: Oh wow, he took possession of her. And that was

621
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 3: very common for white families in that jib. If a

622
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 3: white woman dated or had children with the black men,

623
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:49,920
Speaker 3: the families would take that woman and put her in

624
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:55,360
Speaker 3: a mental institution. Wow. You know what would have happened

625
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 3: if he did? Maybe he got her help. I don't know.

626
00:32:58,200 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 3: So that's a missiony.

627
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:00,520
Speaker 2: That is crazy.

628
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was very common back then. A woman will

629
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:07,520
Speaker 3: be quote unquote hysterical. They did. They put women in

630
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:11,080
Speaker 3: a mental institution for different reasons. Sometimes they were too

631
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 3: independent thinking, or they challenged.

632
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:15,720
Speaker 2: It because that's what I said, people don't like women.

633
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:20,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, sexism is older than racism. I mean, that's I've

634
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:22,280
Speaker 3: learned just late in the last couple of years how

635
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:24,080
Speaker 3: powerful sexism is.

636
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:29,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'm black and a woman. My God, yeah,

637
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:30,440
Speaker 2: it's hard out here.

638
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:35,560
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I always liked strong women. I don't know,

639
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:38,720
Speaker 3: maybe because the woman who raised me, my aunt, who

640
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:41,320
Speaker 3: was kind of like my surrogate mom. Yeah, kind of

641
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:44,080
Speaker 3: like a very strong woman, and I just always like that.

642
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:45,080
Speaker 4: Yeah.

643
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:48,840
Speaker 2: And also your mom, your grandmother, she had mental illness too.

644
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:54,320
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, my maternal grandmother and in the family. And

645
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 3: that was one of the little heartbreaking detail is that

646
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:01,640
Speaker 3: when my mom went to visit her, who was mentally ill,

647
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 3: my mom was like I think five or six. Her

648
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:08,719
Speaker 3: mom wouldn't even look at her, refused to recognize her.

649
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 3: So my mom would still trying to climb on her

650
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 3: lap to get her to recognize and that must have

651
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:17,000
Speaker 3: been so heartbreaking. So there's a mental component, and that's,

652
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:18,960
Speaker 3: of course, that's one of the things I was concerned

653
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:22,160
Speaker 3: about growing up. I didn't want anybody to know, yeah,

654
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:24,279
Speaker 3: because it's like, maybe I'm going to become mentally on

655
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:27,360
Speaker 3: And I definitely I remember dating I wouldn't let women.

656
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:30,200
Speaker 3: I didn't like talking about my mom at all, but

657
00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:31,719
Speaker 3: I didn't want a woman to know that because like,

658
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:33,440
Speaker 3: I'm not going to go up with a guy whose mom,

659
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:35,480
Speaker 3: you know, as schizophrenia.

660
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 2: So yeah, and in your father's relationship with white women

661
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:43,279
Speaker 2: occurred during a time when interracial data and marriage were

662
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 2: often met with hostility and evil, even legal challenges. So

663
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 2: what do you think motivate But I know what motivated him,

664
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:51,319
Speaker 2: But what do you think motivating him to pursue those

665
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:54,160
Speaker 2: relationships despite the risk because your daddy was.

666
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:57,879
Speaker 3: He was outside. Yeah, he was a character. I meant

667
00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:00,160
Speaker 3: some day, Well, I could tell you what I think.

668
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:01,799
Speaker 3: You want to tell me first? What you think? Are

669
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:03,560
Speaker 3: you wanna be? You wanna be? Go first?

670
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:05,560
Speaker 2: Well, I think there was a situation you said that

671
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:08,360
Speaker 2: he was growing up and something happened to his father

672
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:13,120
Speaker 2: with white people, and he was just like, ain't no

673
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:14,440
Speaker 2: white man treating me like that?

674
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:17,280
Speaker 3: Like that is so what you just said is so perceptive.

675
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:21,879
Speaker 3: You really read the book. Yeah that's really good. Yeah

676
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,319
Speaker 3: that was key, and I mean, you know, you know,

677
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 3: to explain why we're attracted to people's it's a complicated thing.

678
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:31,480
Speaker 3: They're many. I certainly think it was the taboo thing,

679
00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:34,759
Speaker 3: you know, a lord. My father was a very dark man.

680
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 3: He didn't like being black, and I thought he felt

681
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:39,840
Speaker 3: like white men were more attractive. So I think that

682
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:42,240
Speaker 3: was definitely part of it, But I think a huge

683
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:45,160
Speaker 3: reasons what you just said. My father grew up in

684
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 3: the Jim Crow era. Yeah, he grew up in an

685
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:50,719
Speaker 3: era where his own father would step off the sidewalk

686
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:55,239
Speaker 3: when white people approached where. Yeah, when he was a

687
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 3: young boy, my father was slap by a white man

688
00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:00,600
Speaker 3: and his father did nothing right, and he said, my

689
00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 3: father was nothing but a scared ass nigger father. I

690
00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:05,799
Speaker 3: think part of the way he lived, He's like, I

691
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:07,920
Speaker 3: will never live as a scared ass nigga anything a

692
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:13,120
Speaker 3: white man is entitled to women and then Auntie. That

693
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 3: the type of job he had where he spent most

694
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 3: of his time overseas. Now, when you're a black man

695
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:21,400
Speaker 3: and you know, a US citizen, when you're in France

696
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:23,799
Speaker 3: or Australia, they treating you as a US citizen, they're

697
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 3: not treating you like they treat you in the country.

698
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:30,879
Speaker 3: So yeah, he custom to a certain type of freedom. Yeah,

699
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:32,920
Speaker 3: I think that was part of part of the reason.

700
00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:35,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, damn, I do you think about that? But it

701
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:38,759
Speaker 2: makes sense, Like he didn't like he hated being black.

702
00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's no doubt about it. Like he he didn't

703
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:47,920
Speaker 3: like being dark, he didn't like you know, he would

704
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 3: he favored me with their patrick because we were lighter

705
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:58,200
Speaker 3: and our hair texture over our You got a good memory. Yeah,

706
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:02,239
Speaker 3: the older siblings because they were darker, and so he was.

707
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:06,759
Speaker 3: He was colored strung. You know, we we you know,

708
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:08,640
Speaker 3: that's the whole thing. I hope we've evolved past that

709
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:12,040
Speaker 3: point now where we only equate beauty with certain Anglo

710
00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:17,160
Speaker 3: European things. If we understand, it's dark, it's it can

711
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:19,239
Speaker 3: be kinky hair, it could be all these things. So

712
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:20,319
Speaker 3: he didn't see it that way.

713
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:21,400
Speaker 1: I know.

714
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:24,359
Speaker 2: Besides your siblings, did he ever date any other black

715
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:25,920
Speaker 2: women or was it only just No?

716
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:29,160
Speaker 3: No, he never did. I mean wow. I asked him

717
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:31,360
Speaker 3: about that once. I said, Dad, whyn't you what do

718
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:33,560
Speaker 3: you gotta gets black women? And he gave me this

719
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:41,280
Speaker 3: absurd answer, h and what you say, I'm pretty profane.

720
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:45,959
Speaker 3: He said that a white woman understand that you can't

721
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:48,080
Speaker 3: go all night. I don't know what that means.

722
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:51,600
Speaker 2: Dad was wow, though, Oh yeah.

723
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 3: I would come home. I didn't know what to expect.

724
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 3: I would come home at times and that would be

725
00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:03,160
Speaker 3: all the neighborhood drug dealer, you know, the winos, the prostitutes,

726
00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:08,719
Speaker 3: everybody in the house. I mean just parties. Yes, he

727
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:11,239
Speaker 3: lived like he was always on a ship at sea

728
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:13,960
Speaker 3: with his boys. And he was just That's why I

729
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:16,200
Speaker 3: said at the beginning, I could not think of a

730
00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:17,040
Speaker 3: father who was.

731
00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 5: More uh, he was more ill equipped helped me understand,

732
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:26,239
Speaker 5: you know, the the divisions between the white and black

733
00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:28,200
Speaker 5: members of my family and how I dealt with that.

734
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:30,359
Speaker 3: He just wasn't that type of person. He was just

735
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 3: this man of action who just was carried along by

736
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:35,840
Speaker 3: his impulses. And you know, he didn't even want me

737
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:38,799
Speaker 3: to write this book. I remember him calling me said,

738
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 3: I heard you're writing telling this story. You should leave

739
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 3: all this stuff below. He wasn't that type of person.

740
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:45,160
Speaker 4: Wow.

741
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:47,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, wait did he have any more kids after you

742
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 2: and your brother?

743
00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:53,279
Speaker 3: He did? I know, he did last job, he had

744
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:55,719
Speaker 3: his last child and when he was fifty seven. I

745
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:59,839
Speaker 3: mean he's uh white woman, yeah, I Spanish, Yeah, white

746
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:04,640
Speaker 3: little Spanish woman. He was listening, I know, and I'm

747
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:07,399
Speaker 3: people would see me and it's like my brothers would say,

748
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:12,440
Speaker 3: what happened to you? Because I'm so different. I'm like quiet, introverted, bookish,

749
00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:16,120
Speaker 3: and he was just got rabble riser, you know, getting

750
00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:19,960
Speaker 3: bar fights, you know, fight back at the police and

751
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:24,319
Speaker 3: all these different children and running around. But yeah, but

752
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:28,640
Speaker 3: you know, it was really important. He loved my mom.

753
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:29,360
Speaker 1: And I.

754
00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:33,080
Speaker 3: Doubted that for a long time because I thought, well,

755
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:35,759
Speaker 3: maybe my mom was kind of like this taboo relationship.

756
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:38,840
Speaker 3: I discovered later on, is that all those years she

757
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:42,560
Speaker 3: was in those mental institutions, he kept visiting her, yeah,

758
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:46,279
Speaker 3: talking to her, and I can only imagine that he

759
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:49,280
Speaker 3: was letting her know about us and bringing our pictures

760
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:53,040
Speaker 3: because when I first met her, I remember being I

761
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:54,359
Speaker 3: couldn't figure out why she was.

762
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:57,800
Speaker 2: So comfortable my mom, like like she knew y'all right.

763
00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:00,319
Speaker 3: But but because she did know us, because first of all,

764
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:03,560
Speaker 3: she had the memory when she was But secondly, my

765
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 3: father was going out there to visit her, showing her

766
00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:10,279
Speaker 3: pictures of us, let her know about us growing up.

767
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:13,080
Speaker 3: So he did that. He kept in contact with her,

768
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:15,480
Speaker 3: and when he was old and frail, he kept on

769
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:18,160
Speaker 3: assisting on visiting her, So that meant a lot. He

770
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 3: really did love her.

771
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:22,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, what happened to that white woman that he bought home?

772
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:25,320
Speaker 2: And he was like this, y'all knew mama?

773
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:31,440
Speaker 3: Oh yes, I just talked to her today. Oh wow, yeah, Mago, Yeah,

774
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:33,759
Speaker 3: the one who revealed my own racism because I didn't

775
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:37,319
Speaker 3: want to walk in public with her. Yeah, she's she's

776
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:42,160
Speaker 3: still here, and she she settled in the United States.

777
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:45,040
Speaker 3: She had she brought her daughter here and she settled

778
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:49,120
Speaker 3: in and uh yeah, it's it was the weirdest thing.

779
00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:51,480
Speaker 3: But only my father would do something like that. You

780
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:53,640
Speaker 3: need a mom, So let me go all the way

781
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:56,839
Speaker 3: to South America, marry some twenty six year old woman.

782
00:40:56,920 --> 00:40:58,480
Speaker 3: Bring up here. Say here's your mom.

783
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:11,240
Speaker 6: Nah, he's a fun guy.

784
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:14,879
Speaker 2: Did your father relationships affect the way that you thought

785
00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:16,160
Speaker 2: about love and partnership?

786
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:21,880
Speaker 3: Oh that's a deep one. Yeah, I mean I can't

787
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:25,720
Speaker 3: I can't help but think that my mother and father

788
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:28,239
Speaker 3: the way I grew up shaped the way I looked

789
00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:34,680
Speaker 3: at Uh you say partnerships and relationships love? Yeah, yeah,

790
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:38,600
Speaker 3: because I never when I saw when I grew up,

791
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 3: I saw my father living a way where I felt

792
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:45,120
Speaker 3: like he was just carried around, carried around by his impulses,

793
00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 3: and I felt like he kind of be honest, I

794
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:50,879
Speaker 3: think he kind of used women, and I don't think

795
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:54,360
Speaker 3: he ever. I never saw my father be friends with

796
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:57,400
Speaker 3: a woman except for my own mom, and I consciously

797
00:41:57,440 --> 00:41:59,920
Speaker 3: decided like I don't want to be that way. Yea

798
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:04,360
Speaker 3: almost overcompensated. I mean I feel like I was almost

799
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:08,600
Speaker 3: so emotionally repressed and so polite around women, like I'm

800
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:12,560
Speaker 3: not going to be my father. So I think it

801
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:15,680
Speaker 3: seeing my father made me very aware of how men

802
00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:19,000
Speaker 3: can hurt women. Yeah, I want to be different. And

803
00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:21,960
Speaker 3: then my mom. I think having a mom that was

804
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:27,839
Speaker 3: a severe mental illness. I think what it did is

805
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:31,520
Speaker 3: made me more patient with maybe women I met who

806
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:37,279
Speaker 3: might have had problems because I had problems like I

807
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:39,160
Speaker 3: you know, there are a lot of women who had

808
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:43,080
Speaker 3: been the victims of like assault and things like that. Yeah,

809
00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:45,520
Speaker 3: if I met a woman like that who was carrying

810
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:47,600
Speaker 3: around that kind of baggage, I guess it kind of

811
00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:50,960
Speaker 3: made me more patient with it because I knew it

812
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:52,640
Speaker 3: was like when a woman to carry around these kind

813
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:53,560
Speaker 3: of mental issues.

814
00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:54,520
Speaker 2: With my mom.

815
00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:57,000
Speaker 3: But yeah, but there are probably a lot of reasons

816
00:42:57,040 --> 00:42:58,920
Speaker 3: I still don't quite understand how to shaped me.

817
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:03,480
Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah, Now you mentioned having multiple encounters with

818
00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:06,720
Speaker 2: your grandfather's ghosts and man who rejected you at birth.

819
00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:09,200
Speaker 2: Could you talk about those encounters and how did they

820
00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:11,360
Speaker 2: make you feel? Because I thought that was crazy.

821
00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:16,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's funny because I was just talking about that

822
00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:19,040
Speaker 3: to day with somebody. Somebody messaged me on Facebook and said,

823
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:21,719
Speaker 3: I heard you tell that story about your grandfather on

824
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:26,840
Speaker 3: a spook podcast and all, but well that was a

825
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:29,319
Speaker 3: part of the book. People told me, my friends said,

826
00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:30,239
Speaker 3: don't put that in the book.

827
00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:30,960
Speaker 2: Why.

828
00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:34,120
Speaker 3: They felt like people would laugh at that. They think

829
00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:36,440
Speaker 3: something was wrong with you. And I wouldn't have put

830
00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:38,600
Speaker 3: it in a book if it was just me who

831
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:40,600
Speaker 3: had the experience. But I only put it in there

832
00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:44,440
Speaker 3: because my brother and my wife saw the same person

833
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:50,080
Speaker 3: that I did. Yeah, No, three couldn't be hallucinating. And

834
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:52,640
Speaker 3: my wife knew nothing about this. But to answer your

835
00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:57,360
Speaker 3: question in a succinct way as possible, that was a

836
00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:00,919
Speaker 3: terrifying experience that began as a kid. I have and

837
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:02,319
Speaker 3: and I had it with my brother. I didn't know

838
00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:06,560
Speaker 3: what that meant, but what it meant to me is

839
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:11,960
Speaker 3: that that even a person who like my grandfather, even

840
00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:15,680
Speaker 3: a person you might think as a monster corrupted by racism,

841
00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:18,920
Speaker 3: they'll never change. My grandfather showed me that you can't

842
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:22,239
Speaker 3: define a person by their worst act. Because with that

843
00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:27,759
Speaker 3: visitation is that he continued to visit me older, and

844
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:29,560
Speaker 3: he was trying to tell me something, and I think

845
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:33,600
Speaker 3: what he was seeking was forgiveness. The way what I

846
00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:37,040
Speaker 3: say is he haunted me, but I haunted him as well.

847
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:40,479
Speaker 3: So that really showed me that, you know, people more

848
00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:44,600
Speaker 3: than something atrocious, you know that they did. And I

849
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:46,239
Speaker 3: found a lot of people who read that part of

850
00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:49,560
Speaker 3: the story actually liked it or something. But it was terrifying.

851
00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:51,440
Speaker 3: I never thought I would write about it.

852
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:53,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean you was like, what nine years old?

853
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:55,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I you know.

854
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:57,880
Speaker 2: I then your wife saw it.

855
00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:00,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, she doesn't like talking about it now if I

856
00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:02,759
Speaker 3: bring it up, because she didn't know anything about this.

857
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:05,439
Speaker 3: Like just imagine you're in a relationship with a guy,

858
00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:09,400
Speaker 3: or you know, you're marrying a relationship and you go

859
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:11,440
Speaker 3: to bed one night and you wake up and you

860
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:12,440
Speaker 3: see some man.

861
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:14,319
Speaker 2: Standing, white man just looking at you.

862
00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:17,640
Speaker 3: Looking looking at him. Right then he tells you, oh,

863
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:20,359
Speaker 3: that's my grand You don't know anything about this, yeah,

864
00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:23,680
Speaker 3: about street. So she was mad, like why did you

865
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:26,360
Speaker 3: tell me about this? Like I didn't like telling myself

866
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:28,239
Speaker 3: about it. I don't like thinking about that. But yeah,

867
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:31,920
Speaker 3: it was it was really it was really strange, and

868
00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:35,560
Speaker 3: I didn't exaggerate anything it was. It was. It was terrifying.

869
00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:38,440
Speaker 3: I never spared again. Have you ever had any experience

870
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:39,280
Speaker 3: like that before?

871
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:43,880
Speaker 2: No, seeing the ghost. No, but I had dreams where

872
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:49,319
Speaker 2: like it felt really realm or I have like because

873
00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:51,120
Speaker 2: my grandmother passed away, so she was like a mother

874
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:54,399
Speaker 2: to me, so I have dreams with her, like like

875
00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:56,440
Speaker 2: one make a long scy short. I had a dream

876
00:45:56,480 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 2: when we was in her house and it literally felt

877
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:01,600
Speaker 2: like it happened. But it's like she knew that it

878
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:04,560
Speaker 2: was just a visit, which is I don't know, it's

879
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:06,480
Speaker 2: kind of weird, but I have moments, but I never

880
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:07,800
Speaker 2: saw a ghost before. I don't want to see a

881
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:08,400
Speaker 2: ghost though.

882
00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:11,279
Speaker 3: You don't want to. I don't want you don't want to.

883
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:14,799
Speaker 2: But I also feel like, I'm just curious. When you

884
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:18,560
Speaker 2: saw your grandfather's ghost, did that change your perspective on life,

885
00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:21,600
Speaker 2: death and also just unresolved family pain?

886
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 3: Yes? Uh, in life and death, it was like proof

887
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:28,759
Speaker 3: to me that there is life after death. I have

888
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:32,840
Speaker 3: no doubt anymore that you know when our body dies

889
00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:35,680
Speaker 3: that our spirit goes on, because I have proof I've

890
00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:41,799
Speaker 3: seen it. Yeah, So so that changes that. But I

891
00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:44,200
Speaker 3: think there was another part of the question about resolving.

892
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:45,839
Speaker 2: Pain, unresolved family pain.

893
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:49,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, it helped me resolve my family pain because my

894
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:53,080
Speaker 3: grandfather was somebody I heard these awful stories about, you know. Yeah,

895
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:57,080
Speaker 3: and so to realize that he was coming back not

896
00:46:57,160 --> 00:47:00,400
Speaker 3: to terrify me, god, to haunt me, but try to

897
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:05,960
Speaker 3: make amends that that helped the pain I felt that his.

898
00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:07,839
Speaker 3: I mean, I just tried to think about what type

899
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:09,520
Speaker 3: of person he was, That he had that kind of

900
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:15,040
Speaker 3: will that even the grave couldn't prevent him to say

901
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:20,560
Speaker 3: I'm sorry. That was something. And then I had to

902
00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:23,160
Speaker 3: get to know him and to know, for example, that

903
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:25,120
Speaker 3: one of his best friends was a black man, and

904
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:27,279
Speaker 3: that the last person he called before he died was

905
00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:30,520
Speaker 3: a black man. That shows you how complex people are.

906
00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:33,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, have you seen him lately? Have you come to

907
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:34,560
Speaker 2: visit you lately?

908
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:34,960
Speaker 4: Oh?

909
00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:36,879
Speaker 3: No, And I hope I never do. I mean, it's

910
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:39,759
Speaker 3: kind of it's kind of weird. Sometimes I think, like,

911
00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:41,680
Speaker 3: will he come back and say, hey, you know your

912
00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:43,799
Speaker 3: book was overwritten. I didn't like what you said on

913
00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:48,600
Speaker 3: page two, you know, But no, because I felt like

914
00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:52,319
Speaker 3: when I prayed for him and I said you when

915
00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:58,319
Speaker 3: I met it, I think that allowed him to move forward. Yeah,

916
00:47:58,400 --> 00:47:59,719
Speaker 3: I haven't felt anything like that.

917
00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:03,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I really like the fact that you included

918
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:07,000
Speaker 2: his story thank you in your book. I thought that

919
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:09,200
Speaker 2: that was a way to just like show Like you

920
00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:13,200
Speaker 2: said that people are very complex. So when you included

921
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:15,520
Speaker 2: his story, what message do you hope readers take away

922
00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:17,440
Speaker 2: from that part of your journey.

923
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:20,040
Speaker 3: Which you just said, I mean, are you are you right?

924
00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:21,480
Speaker 2: I do right?

925
00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:24,479
Speaker 3: Well, the kind of questions you asked to me sound

926
00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:29,160
Speaker 3: like a writer, because you know, you write a story.

927
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:32,920
Speaker 3: Bad stories are people that are stick figures that are

928
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:36,320
Speaker 3: one dimensional, right, Because in real life, the more you

929
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:39,799
Speaker 3: get to know people, the more surprising people are, the

930
00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:42,759
Speaker 3: more different sides they have. And that's why the show

931
00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:46,600
Speaker 3: with my grandfather that yeah, he was capable of tremendous,

932
00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:51,120
Speaker 3: awful racism, but he was also capable of other things

933
00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:54,000
Speaker 3: that were good. And look, he had all these things

934
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:57,640
Speaker 3: that happened to him. He suffered tremendously. Yeah, you know,

935
00:48:57,719 --> 00:48:59,560
Speaker 3: so I was just trying to give people to make

936
00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:00,719
Speaker 3: him he being.

937
00:49:00,719 --> 00:49:03,040
Speaker 2: To humanize because he went through a lot too.

938
00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:06,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean the kind of poverty and then just

939
00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:10,480
Speaker 3: think of it, his wife, he gets married, he loses

940
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:13,800
Speaker 3: his wife to mental illness. Then he loses his oldest

941
00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:16,319
Speaker 3: daughter to mental illness, and then he loses his only

942
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:19,200
Speaker 3: other remaining daughter because he's too poor to take care

943
00:49:19,239 --> 00:49:24,640
Speaker 3: of her everything. So what that type of suffering, you know,

944
00:49:24,719 --> 00:49:25,960
Speaker 3: what does that do to someone?

945
00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:27,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, then he started drinking.

946
00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:32,799
Speaker 3: But he was also a man of faith, I think,

947
00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:35,919
Speaker 3: and so I just tried to put that in there too.

948
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:39,120
Speaker 2: Now we're almost finished, but I think this is the

949
00:49:39,160 --> 00:49:41,239
Speaker 2: part that really got me when you started to speak

950
00:49:41,280 --> 00:49:44,080
Speaker 2: about forgiveness, because obviously it plays a major role in

951
00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:46,680
Speaker 2: your story. So what was the most challenging part of

952
00:49:46,719 --> 00:49:47,680
Speaker 2: that process for you?

953
00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:49,279
Speaker 5: M M.

954
00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:56,600
Speaker 3: I think the most challenging part was something I alluded

955
00:49:56,640 --> 00:50:00,880
Speaker 3: to earlier, and that is seeing that some of the

956
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:04,040
Speaker 3: same things that made my white family members reject me,

957
00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:09,759
Speaker 3: some of those same emotions sentiments were also in me

958
00:50:11,120 --> 00:50:13,640
Speaker 3: because most of my life I felt like I had

959
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:16,520
Speaker 3: moral high ground on them in a way I did.

960
00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:20,200
Speaker 3: I mean, there's no excuse for rejecting the kid at

961
00:50:20,239 --> 00:50:23,120
Speaker 3: birth and all that. It felt like when I met him,

962
00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:25,279
Speaker 3: I was going like, oh, are you racist? Let me

963
00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:27,160
Speaker 3: preach to you and show you how bad you were.

964
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:33,200
Speaker 3: Expected them to teach me lessons about, say, empathy or forgiveness.

965
00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:36,719
Speaker 3: And so that was the hardest thing to learn, to

966
00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:39,239
Speaker 3: figure out that I could learn from them, that they

967
00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:42,799
Speaker 3: could teach me that I wasn't always right, that I

968
00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:44,839
Speaker 3: could learn from them, and there was goodness in them.

969
00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:47,600
Speaker 3: That's the hardest thing. But take out the time now

970
00:50:47,680 --> 00:50:50,759
Speaker 3: when it's so easy to just be angry over race

971
00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:51,520
Speaker 3: all the time.

972
00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:53,040
Speaker 4: Yeah.

973
00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:56,279
Speaker 2: But I also feel like your grandfather's ghost was the

974
00:50:56,360 --> 00:50:59,120
Speaker 2: bridge between your family's past and your journey with Helen.

975
00:50:59,239 --> 00:51:00,879
Speaker 2: Do you feel like that, I.

976
00:51:00,760 --> 00:51:04,040
Speaker 3: Think, as beautifully said, I yeah said that way, Yeah,

977
00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:07,560
Speaker 3: I do. I mean, no, it was I mean it uh,

978
00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:13,360
Speaker 3: I mean he was like the monster in the family.

979
00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:16,239
Speaker 3: And my father talked about him with such revulsion.

980
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:17,040
Speaker 4: Yeah.

981
00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:20,480
Speaker 2: Come, calling your daddy a nigga was crazy. I was, well,

982
00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:24,960
Speaker 2: not even a nigga. Yeah yeah, yeah the other Yeah

983
00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:25,960
Speaker 2: that was intense.

984
00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:33,000
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, he assaulted my father. But yeah, nobody's irredeemable

985
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:33,680
Speaker 3: and he's proof of that.

986
00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:35,680
Speaker 4: Yeah.

987
00:51:35,719 --> 00:51:37,920
Speaker 2: And how has the history of mental illness on your

988
00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:40,480
Speaker 2: mother's side of the family affected your own mental health? Like,

989
00:51:40,719 --> 00:51:42,800
Speaker 2: how do you approach your emotional well being? Because I

990
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:45,440
Speaker 2: feel like you are a very self aware person. I

991
00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:47,240
Speaker 2: feel like you're very in tune with yourself.

992
00:51:47,680 --> 00:51:49,879
Speaker 3: Oh really I don't feel that way, but thank you?

993
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:51,279
Speaker 2: Really you think so?

994
00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:57,680
Speaker 3: No? No, oh, I mean now, but how did my

995
00:51:57,680 --> 00:52:01,200
Speaker 3: mother's my onness affected myself awareness? I'll take care of

996
00:52:01,200 --> 00:52:02,160
Speaker 3: myself mental.

997
00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:04,160
Speaker 2: Health, and like, how do you approach your emotional well being?

998
00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:10,800
Speaker 3: For me, my emotional well being is really impacted by

999
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:16,280
Speaker 3: my faith. That really helped me. Like I said before,

1000
00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:18,240
Speaker 3: when when you have a mom with a severe mental

1001
00:52:18,239 --> 00:52:20,560
Speaker 3: illness or a parent, I would really worried that, man,

1002
00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:23,080
Speaker 3: I'm going to end up that way. But I think

1003
00:52:23,120 --> 00:52:25,560
Speaker 3: what it did is one is it made me cling

1004
00:52:25,719 --> 00:52:29,879
Speaker 3: to faith more to find it. But I think it's

1005
00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:33,240
Speaker 3: also if you read about mental illness like stake schizophrenia,

1006
00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:37,240
Speaker 3: it usually a most always happens to somebody when they're younger.

1007
00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:40,920
Speaker 3: So once I reached a certain age, I kind of

1008
00:52:40,920 --> 00:52:42,640
Speaker 3: figured out, like, that's not going to happen to me.

1009
00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:44,680
Speaker 3: I might have I'm going to have other challenges, but

1010
00:52:44,680 --> 00:52:46,080
Speaker 3: it's not going to be that. So that was a

1011
00:52:46,080 --> 00:52:49,319
Speaker 3: big that was a big relief. But I think the

1012
00:52:49,360 --> 00:52:53,960
Speaker 3: other part is just I think I never really articulated

1013
00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:56,160
Speaker 3: this before, but I think having a mom who couldn't

1014
00:52:56,200 --> 00:53:00,880
Speaker 3: really use her mind the way she wanted it, more

1015
00:53:01,160 --> 00:53:04,080
Speaker 3: invested in treasure learning like I love to read, I

1016
00:53:04,120 --> 00:53:06,400
Speaker 3: love to learn, I love to be creative and to

1017
00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:08,840
Speaker 3: think because I know how precious it is to be

1018
00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:11,400
Speaker 3: able to do that because I didn't do it. So

1019
00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:13,239
Speaker 3: I think that's shaped me in that way.

1020
00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:15,959
Speaker 2: Do you think your mom was aware of the fact

1021
00:53:15,960 --> 00:53:17,120
Speaker 2: that she was writing a book.

1022
00:53:16,880 --> 00:53:21,120
Speaker 3: About no No because she she passed.

1023
00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:23,200
Speaker 2: I know she passed away before the book came out,

1024
00:53:23,239 --> 00:53:24,359
Speaker 2: but like, do you think she did?

1025
00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:27,080
Speaker 3: No? See, that's the that's the thing that was kind

1026
00:53:27,080 --> 00:53:31,319
Speaker 3: of you know, I don't know what the word is,

1027
00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:37,000
Speaker 3: but it's hard for me our relationship because I couldn't

1028
00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:39,319
Speaker 3: talk about things I wanted to talk about with her.

1029
00:53:39,360 --> 00:53:41,480
Speaker 3: I don't even know if my mom Neil was a

1030
00:53:41,560 --> 00:53:45,960
Speaker 3: journalist or author, didn't care about that kind of stuff.

1031
00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:48,160
Speaker 3: I mean we did. I couldn't talk to her that way.

1032
00:53:48,200 --> 00:53:51,680
Speaker 3: So my goal was to finish the book and then

1033
00:53:51,840 --> 00:53:55,400
Speaker 3: show her, like the picture of it, her picture on

1034
00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:58,400
Speaker 3: the cover and all that, see how she would react.

1035
00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:00,799
Speaker 3: But I don't think she was away that. We never

1036
00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:04,000
Speaker 3: we never talked about anything deep like raise or books.

1037
00:54:05,120 --> 00:54:08,680
Speaker 3: It was also always other things and that kind of

1038
00:54:08,680 --> 00:54:10,640
Speaker 3: frustrated me in the beginning because I wanted to have

1039
00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:13,040
Speaker 3: talked to her about those things, but we couldn't go

1040
00:54:13,080 --> 00:54:14,600
Speaker 3: there because of her illness.

1041
00:54:15,040 --> 00:54:18,439
Speaker 2: Right, And you also, Okay, what was you gonna say?

1042
00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:23,600
Speaker 3: I think in retrospect that in retrospect though, that I

1043
00:54:23,640 --> 00:54:25,799
Speaker 3: could have talked about those things with my mom because

1044
00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:28,759
Speaker 3: my brother had conversations with her like that, but I

1045
00:54:29,280 --> 00:54:31,880
Speaker 3: was afraid to. I didn't want her to be upset.

1046
00:54:32,040 --> 00:54:33,960
Speaker 3: But I you know, one of the things I would

1047
00:54:34,080 --> 00:54:36,200
Speaker 3: change if I could go back, is that is to

1048
00:54:36,280 --> 00:54:38,319
Speaker 3: kind of try to talk talk to more about those

1049
00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:41,160
Speaker 3: things and to trust her more that she could handle

1050
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:43,680
Speaker 3: with because if you remember the as a part of

1051
00:54:43,719 --> 00:54:47,240
Speaker 3: the book where I started talking about how I began

1052
00:54:47,320 --> 00:54:50,480
Speaker 3: to see this other side of her, she was still

1053
00:54:50,600 --> 00:54:53,759
Speaker 3: this badass so to speak. Like my brother tells a

1054
00:54:53,800 --> 00:54:57,080
Speaker 3: story about my mom seeing this woman miss being mistreated

1055
00:54:57,200 --> 00:55:00,000
Speaker 3: and she calls this woman who was doing a mistreating

1056
00:55:00,680 --> 00:55:03,680
Speaker 3: or what, she's such a bitch. You know, that was

1057
00:55:03,719 --> 00:55:06,239
Speaker 3: still there. I should have picked up on that and like, no,

1058
00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:08,600
Speaker 3: you can talk to Mom about those things, but I

1059
00:55:08,640 --> 00:55:09,120
Speaker 3: never did.

1060
00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:10,160
Speaker 5: Hmmm.

1061
00:55:11,800 --> 00:55:14,040
Speaker 2: And I thought this was funny because you know, you

1062
00:55:14,080 --> 00:55:16,640
Speaker 2: receive racism as a child. Obviously, race is like one

1063
00:55:16,640 --> 00:55:18,840
Speaker 2: of the main components in your book. But then you

1064
00:55:18,960 --> 00:55:22,680
Speaker 2: was racist toward a black man at Loew's when the paint.

1065
00:55:23,200 --> 00:55:25,239
Speaker 3: That's an excellent point and I wanted to put that there.

1066
00:55:25,239 --> 00:55:28,040
Speaker 3: You asked earlier about what's hard about, you know, writing

1067
00:55:28,120 --> 00:55:31,440
Speaker 3: a memoir, and I say, honesty, Yeah, that's a story

1068
00:55:31,440 --> 00:55:33,600
Speaker 3: that doesn't make me look good, you know.

1069
00:55:33,680 --> 00:55:36,440
Speaker 2: I think as black people we all like that though.

1070
00:55:37,080 --> 00:55:39,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, but how many how many be willing to admit

1071
00:55:39,160 --> 00:55:43,359
Speaker 3: that in a book about race? True backstage when we

1072
00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:45,640
Speaker 3: talked to one another, we can say the most awful

1073
00:55:45,680 --> 00:55:49,839
Speaker 3: things about black people, right people, but in front of everybody,

1074
00:55:50,320 --> 00:55:52,560
Speaker 3: you know, and it's hard to admit that, particularly get

1075
00:55:52,600 --> 00:55:54,359
Speaker 3: on in the book. You know, you can, you can

1076
00:55:54,440 --> 00:55:56,719
Speaker 3: kind of pretend like you're this stage on race, that

1077
00:55:56,760 --> 00:55:59,960
Speaker 3: you're above these issues. And that's what I wanted to

1078
00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:03,120
Speaker 3: put that in there, because like to show people, One,

1079
00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:07,960
Speaker 3: this is how powerful this stuff is racism. It got

1080
00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:11,040
Speaker 3: me and I didn't even know it. But two, that

1081
00:56:11,160 --> 00:56:13,560
Speaker 3: helped me understand my aunt better. That made me more

1082
00:56:13,560 --> 00:56:18,280
Speaker 3: compassionate to us jumping on her case, not opening her letters.

1083
00:56:18,680 --> 00:56:21,880
Speaker 3: She's raised up around all white people when it's segregated America,

1084
00:56:22,280 --> 00:56:25,399
Speaker 3: and I'm disappointed that she can't get raised. And here

1085
00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:28,799
Speaker 3: I am racially profiling somebody. So that was to me

1086
00:56:29,520 --> 00:56:31,479
Speaker 3: really connecting with her.

1087
00:56:32,320 --> 00:56:33,560
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1088
00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:36,239
Speaker 2: And last but not least, after sharing your story, how

1089
00:56:36,320 --> 00:56:39,800
Speaker 2: has your understanding of race evolved since writing your memoir?

1090
00:56:42,239 --> 00:56:48,399
Speaker 3: US made me more hopeful because it made me more

1091
00:56:48,400 --> 00:56:54,120
Speaker 3: hopeful because I look at somebody like my mom, and

1092
00:56:54,160 --> 00:56:58,960
Speaker 3: I say, she's somebody who had no power, and if

1093
00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:01,480
Speaker 3: you look at it, she had like no reason to hope.

1094
00:57:01,480 --> 00:57:06,040
Speaker 3: She had tremendous suffering in her life, treous tremendous tragedy

1095
00:57:06,120 --> 00:57:09,520
Speaker 3: to mental illness. She has two boys and she has

1096
00:57:09,600 --> 00:57:13,319
Speaker 3: to she's taken away from her boys. Yeah, all these

1097
00:57:13,360 --> 00:57:16,120
Speaker 3: things to suffering. She I didn't put some of the

1098
00:57:16,160 --> 00:57:18,280
Speaker 3: stuff in the book, but she experienced a lot of

1099
00:57:18,320 --> 00:57:22,000
Speaker 3: hardship in those institutions she was taking advantage of. But

1100
00:57:22,120 --> 00:57:24,440
Speaker 3: to answer your question, but at the same time, I

1101
00:57:24,520 --> 00:57:29,680
Speaker 3: realized in the mid sixties, when she was traveling into

1102
00:57:29,720 --> 00:57:31,760
Speaker 3: this all black neighborhood knocking on the door to see

1103
00:57:31,760 --> 00:57:35,440
Speaker 3: my father, ignoring all those laws giving her to black

1104
00:57:35,480 --> 00:57:40,560
Speaker 3: boys and breaking the law, that she was not alone.

1105
00:57:40,760 --> 00:57:44,439
Speaker 3: There were all these other people doing the same thing,

1106
00:57:44,520 --> 00:57:49,120
Speaker 3: like the parents of Kamala Harris. Yeah, and they didn't

1107
00:57:49,160 --> 00:57:52,080
Speaker 3: wait for judges or politicians to say these laws are

1108
00:57:52,920 --> 00:57:56,640
Speaker 3: you know wrong? They did it themselves before all those

1109
00:57:56,680 --> 00:58:01,480
Speaker 3: people decided, and they created that momentum, that that ripple effect,

1110
00:58:01,760 --> 00:58:03,919
Speaker 3: so that when enough of them begin to do it,

1111
00:58:04,720 --> 00:58:07,080
Speaker 3: courts and the politicians have to move. So it shows

1112
00:58:07,120 --> 00:58:09,920
Speaker 3: me I'm not trying to be too abstract. That really

1113
00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:13,400
Speaker 3: comes from the bottom. Very people act and then the

1114
00:58:13,480 --> 00:58:16,920
Speaker 3: politicians and the judges follow. And my mom was one

1115
00:58:16,920 --> 00:58:21,800
Speaker 3: of those ordinary people who acted and created this tremendous change.

1116
00:58:22,160 --> 00:58:24,400
Speaker 3: I mean she I told people she made a calm

1117
00:58:24,520 --> 00:58:27,760
Speaker 3: to her as possible. She and others like her. The

1118
00:58:27,800 --> 00:58:30,640
Speaker 3: world we live in now where a biracial person can

1119
00:58:30,680 --> 00:58:33,360
Speaker 3: be like Jordan Peel direct films, they can run a president,

1120
00:58:33,400 --> 00:58:36,280
Speaker 3: they can be president. It's no big thing. And so

1121
00:58:37,000 --> 00:58:39,439
Speaker 3: to answer your question, seeing my mom what she went through,

1122
00:58:39,800 --> 00:58:42,800
Speaker 3: has maybe more hopeful about how ordinary people have tremendous

1123
00:58:42,800 --> 00:58:44,360
Speaker 3: power to change things for the better.

1124
00:58:44,960 --> 00:58:48,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, listen, this has been an excellent conversation.

1125
00:58:48,640 --> 00:58:50,120
Speaker 3: Thank you. You asked great questions.

1126
00:58:50,520 --> 00:58:51,840
Speaker 2: Okay, getting my Oprah on.

1127
00:58:52,040 --> 00:58:55,040
Speaker 3: Okay, you were great, yeah, very good, thank you.

1128
00:58:55,080 --> 00:58:56,760
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for being on the show, y'all.

1129
00:58:56,880 --> 00:58:58,360
Speaker 2: When I tell y'all, I was so excited to find

1130
00:58:58,440 --> 00:58:59,760
Speaker 2: him and I was like DM him. I was like,

1131
00:59:00,040 --> 00:59:02,600
Speaker 2: so whenever you free, because I really enjoyed your book.

1132
00:59:02,640 --> 00:59:04,600
Speaker 2: So if you are interested in his book, please make

1133
00:59:04,600 --> 00:59:07,200
Speaker 2: sure to email me at hello at the PSG podcast

1134
00:59:07,280 --> 00:59:09,760
Speaker 2: dot com so we can support him with his book.

1135
00:59:09,800 --> 00:59:11,840
Speaker 2: Because this book was amazing and we got to get

1136
00:59:11,880 --> 00:59:14,160
Speaker 2: this made into a movie. I can definitely see JR.

1137
00:59:14,200 --> 00:59:14,800
Speaker 2: And Pill doing it.

1138
00:59:14,840 --> 00:59:18,040
Speaker 3: It's like it'd be great. Yeah, thank you, thank.

1139
00:59:17,920 --> 00:59:20,400
Speaker 2: You, thank you. And to the listeners, if you have

1140
00:59:20,440 --> 00:59:22,720
Speaker 2: any questions comings concerns, please make sure to email me

1141
00:59:22,760 --> 00:59:25,960
Speaker 2: at hello at the PSG podcast dot com. And until

1142
00:59:26,000 --> 00:59:30,840
Speaker 2: next time, everyone. Later you're gonna say.

1143
00:59:30,640 --> 00:59:34,000
Speaker 3: Bye, oh goodbye, thank you everybody. I'm sorry.

1144
00:59:34,280 --> 00:59:36,520
Speaker 2: And also you're gonna share this with Kamala friends Madam

1145
00:59:36,600 --> 00:59:38,520
Speaker 2: VP friends so she can listen.

1146
00:59:38,520 --> 00:59:39,720
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I guess I will.

1147
00:59:39,800 --> 00:59:44,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you will tell you you don't sound convincing.

1148
00:59:44,640 --> 00:59:46,160
Speaker 3: No, I will post it, y'all. I'll post it on

1149
00:59:46,200 --> 00:59:46,960
Speaker 3: Facebook and all that.

1150
00:59:47,200 --> 00:59:58,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, bye, y'all. The Professional Homegirl Podcast is a

1151
00:59:58,800 --> 01:00:02,360
Speaker 2: production of the black of podcast Network. For more podcasts

1152
01:00:02,400 --> 01:00:06,480
Speaker 2: from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

1153
01:00:06,480 --> 01:00:09,200
Speaker 2: you listen to your favorite shows. Don't forget to subscribe

1154
01:00:09,320 --> 01:00:11,680
Speaker 2: and rate the show, and you can connect with me

1155
01:00:11,840 --> 01:00:14,240
Speaker 2: on social media at the PHG podcast