WEBVTT - Mary Chapin Carpenter

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Such a podcast.

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<v Speaker 1>My guest today is Mary Chapin Carpenter, who has a

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<v Speaker 1>new album, Personal History. Mary Chapin, what was the inspiration

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<v Speaker 1>for this album?

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<v Speaker 2>Boy, that's a giant first question. Well, let's see, there

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<v Speaker 2>was not one subject or topic or emotion or inspiration

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<v Speaker 2>for the whole album, but rather it was a look

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<v Speaker 2>back at life, sort of trying to take stock of

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<v Speaker 2>a life's work, with the idea of course that there's

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<v Speaker 2>much more life to come. And it was about time

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<v Speaker 2>and place and the importance of memory and all of

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<v Speaker 2>those things.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, So in today's world where you're your own record company,

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<v Speaker 1>how do you decide to make a record? Do you

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<v Speaker 1>say I want to make a record to come up

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<v Speaker 1>with tunes, or do you know, write tunes, say it's

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<v Speaker 1>an album, or you sit down and say I want

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<v Speaker 1>to write an album.

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<v Speaker 2>I think I've always been pretty deliberate about things, and

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<v Speaker 2>I've always also been a slow worker. And so if

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<v Speaker 2>I look back at all of the records I've made,

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<v Speaker 2>it seems to be on average about three or four

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<v Speaker 2>years between records. And it would be easy enough to say, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>it's you know, each record is sort of a document

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<v Speaker 2>of life, life between records, but I think this one

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<v Speaker 2>stretches way the lens, if you will, of this one

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<v Speaker 2>stretches way way back, and I can talk about some

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<v Speaker 2>of the songs that really go as far back as

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<v Speaker 2>being a teenager and the things that were going on

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<v Speaker 2>in my life at that time. I always think of

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<v Speaker 2>personal history when I read like a column in the

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<v Speaker 2>New Yorker or wherever I've seen that banner. It's specific,

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<v Speaker 2>but at the same time, it's very wide open. And

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<v Speaker 2>that title gave me this sense of possibility to just

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<v Speaker 2>talk about so much, or rather write and sing about

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<v Speaker 2>so much.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, let's go a little bit more micro. You're cleaning

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<v Speaker 1>the house, you're driving for groceries. Did you come up

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<v Speaker 1>with the idle first? Or you know, how did this start?

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<v Speaker 2>I can be very specific with you about that. The

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<v Speaker 2>title came along when we were in those first months

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<v Speaker 2>of the pandemic and we were all staying inside of

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<v Speaker 2>our homes, and I like, I think a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>people were spending a lot of time thinking like, Oh

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<v Speaker 2>Jesus Christ, what is going to happen? When will we

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<v Speaker 2>be able to resume our lives? Again, when will I

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<v Speaker 2>feel like myself again? Because that time I can only

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<v Speaker 2>speak for myself, but that time was so isolating and

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<v Speaker 2>full of fear, and I was not experiencing loss personally,

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<v Speaker 2>but I certainly knew a lot of people who were,

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<v Speaker 2>and it was just so much to think about, so

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<v Speaker 2>much to ponder, so much to worry about. And so

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<v Speaker 2>I started writing this song that ended up being the

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<v Speaker 2>titular song of the record, and the first song that

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<v Speaker 2>I finished that felt like, ah, I think I'm beginning

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<v Speaker 2>something here. And the song was called what Did You Miss?

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<v Speaker 2>And it was taking stock of the things that I

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<v Speaker 2>missed in the present, while at the same time going

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<v Speaker 2>backwards and remembering things from being a much younger person,

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<v Speaker 2>and kind of riffing off of that. And at the

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<v Speaker 2>end the last verse, I refer to all of these

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<v Speaker 2>songs that have accumulated over the last thirty forty years

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<v Speaker 2>as a personal history. And that was to me the

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<v Speaker 2>obvious title.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, let's talk about the pandemic. I had immune issues,

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<v Speaker 1>so I was locked up longer than the average person.

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<v Speaker 1>But you know, they shut the doors in the middle

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<v Speaker 1>of March twenty twenty. We really didn't know what was

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<v Speaker 1>going on, we paid close attention, came out the other side.

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<v Speaker 1>I am positively shocked how things are different after the pandemic. Hey,

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<v Speaker 1>I got older, which of course everybody does, but your

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<v Speaker 1>perspective changes, and even lifestyle things in terms of people

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<v Speaker 1>wanting to go out to lunch whatever. It ended up

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<v Speaker 1>being a bigger deal than I thought. So how did

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<v Speaker 1>you experience.

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<v Speaker 2>How did I experience being sort of locked in?

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<v Speaker 1>No, I was going to ask the other question first. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>looking back, what do you think about this time? Was

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<v Speaker 1>it just a blip on the radar screen? Or do

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<v Speaker 1>you find there's definitely a before and after and your

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<v Speaker 1>perspective and feelings are different.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, for me, it's definitely a before and after. I

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<v Speaker 2>do remember thinking in those first six months or so

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<v Speaker 2>that I would never ever again complain about being in

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<v Speaker 2>a crowded airport. Other I felt so starved of company

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<v Speaker 2>of people. Of And yet, and the thing about that

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<v Speaker 2>that's kind of funny is that I think of myself

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<v Speaker 2>as a hermit anyway. So I am not a very

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<v Speaker 2>social person. I live in a very rural area. I

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<v Speaker 2>don't see a lot of people. And yet, and as

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<v Speaker 2>I said to one of my sisters, when we started

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<v Speaker 2>staying home, and my sisters and I we'd have a

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<v Speaker 2>call with each other once or twice a month or

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<v Speaker 2>week every other week, and one of my sisters says,

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<v Speaker 2>how are you doing? How are you doing?

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<v Speaker 1>You know?

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<v Speaker 2>And this is she's talking, of course, to me, the hermit.

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<v Speaker 2>And I couldn't help it. I said, I feel as

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<v Speaker 2>if I've been training for this my entire life, you know.

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<v Speaker 2>And I did. I felt like, oh, this is fine.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm handling this. I'm handling this. But you know, that

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<v Speaker 2>was a feeling of the moment, and it certainly didn't

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<v Speaker 2>last for six months. And I don't I don't have

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<v Speaker 2>a health issue like you did, Bob, to be very

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<v Speaker 2>careful with. But I personally did not feel safe going

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<v Speaker 2>out and being and traveling and resuming work for a

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<v Speaker 2>really long time. And even so now, I mean, it

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<v Speaker 2>definitely affects me. I somebody sneezes twenty feet away and

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<v Speaker 2>I'm just out of there. You know. It's just it's

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<v Speaker 2>not something I take for granted.

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<v Speaker 1>So tell me about being a hermit.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh gosh, how long do you have?

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<v Speaker 1>I have plenty of time lay it out.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I've always been I've always been a shy person.

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<v Speaker 2>I've always been a quiet person, and I've always been

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<v Speaker 2>sort of I think cursed on a certain level, with

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<v Speaker 2>a stubborn loneliness that is just there even when I'm

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<v Speaker 2>in a room full of people, and in a way,

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<v Speaker 2>I just prefer It's like I'd rather be my own company.

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<v Speaker 2>In that way. I have a few very close friends,

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<v Speaker 2>but we all live in different places. And the life

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<v Speaker 2>that I have and have had for the last fifteen

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<v Speaker 2>years or so, has allowed me to indulge that hermit

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<v Speaker 2>life because I live, as I said, in a very

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<v Speaker 2>rural area and it suits me. I don't know what

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<v Speaker 2>it is about my personality that has led me to this,

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<v Speaker 2>but here I am.

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<v Speaker 1>How much of it is social anxiety?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh gosh, probably a lot, I imagine. I mean, I

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<v Speaker 2>can't break it down in percentages, but I'm sure that

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<v Speaker 2>figures into it. I just I don't make small talk

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<v Speaker 2>very easily. It's not that I, you know, abhor it.

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<v Speaker 2>It's just I'm not good at it. And you know,

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<v Speaker 2>days can go by where I don't talk to a

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<v Speaker 2>single person except maybe the guy at the checkout stand,

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<v Speaker 2>and sometimes it really gets to me, but other times

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<v Speaker 2>it just as I said, it seems to suit me.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, Let's say, for whatever reason, you're in a location

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<v Speaker 1>and I come by and I say, oh, there's going

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<v Speaker 1>to be this party. You're going to know a couple

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<v Speaker 1>of people. There's going to be like thirty people there.

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<v Speaker 1>Come on, let's go. What would you.

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<v Speaker 2>Say, Yeah, I'd say I'll come for ten minutes.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, let's say I accept that. Will you actually show up?

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, I yes, I will. I won't bail on you.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not gonna I'm not going to be one of

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<v Speaker 2>those people who bail at the last minute. And if

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<v Speaker 2>I'm having a good time, I'll stay longer than ten minutes.

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<v Speaker 2>But in general, I'll do the Irish good bye.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, I haven't heard that term that means what?

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<v Speaker 2>You've never heard that?

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<v Speaker 1>No, I haven't. That learns something every day?

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, well today you're going to learn that an Irish

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<v Speaker 2>goodbye is you just you don't say goodbye to people.

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<v Speaker 2>It's not that you're rude, it's just your slipping of what.

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<v Speaker 2>You're slipping out. You're just disappearing. It's it's you're not

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<v Speaker 2>having you're not making a big deal of leaving. You're

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<v Speaker 2>just slipping out the door.

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<v Speaker 1>I sort of had to learn to not do the

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<v Speaker 1>Irish goodbye. But what might happen at a party such

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<v Speaker 1>that you would stay?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh my gosh, my car broke down? Maybe, I don't know.

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<v Speaker 1>That's pretty serious. I'm talking about what's happening inside the walls.

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<v Speaker 2>Of the Yeah, I know, I know. Well, I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, if my car's not working, I can't leave.

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<v Speaker 2>But uh, what would have to happen? Well, I don't know.

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<v Speaker 2>Just good conversation, lovely people, and not too late.

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<v Speaker 1>You know.

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<v Speaker 2>It's like I'm ready to go to sleep by eight

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<v Speaker 2>o'clock at night.

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<v Speaker 1>So wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, you're early? Now? Have

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<v Speaker 1>you always been early? Yes?

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<v Speaker 2>I have, well maybe not, maybe not as a teenager,

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<v Speaker 2>but certainly now and for a long time, and living

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<v Speaker 2>out where I live there, I live in a really

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<v Speaker 2>beautiful place, and there is a lot to be gained

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<v Speaker 2>from getting up to see the sunrise.

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<v Speaker 1>So okay, what is to be gained?

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<v Speaker 2>Beauty, peace, imagination, gratitude, quiet, just things that can be

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<v Speaker 2>a very lovely way to start your day.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay. So the average day, you wake up at what.

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<v Speaker 2>Time, probably about five five point thirty okay, and.

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<v Speaker 1>Then what do you do other than observe the sun.

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<v Speaker 2>Coming up, I make the best cup of coffee on

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<v Speaker 2>the planet, and after I have wait.

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<v Speaker 1>Wait wait wait, wait wait wait wait, don't wait wait

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<v Speaker 1>wait wait wait. I don't happen to be a coffee drinker,

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<v Speaker 1>but I'm aware of this side. Let's start.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm so sorry.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's start from the beginning. How do you literally make it?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I have this coffee maker that grinds the beans.

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<v Speaker 2>And I don't know if this means anything to you.

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<v Speaker 2>So if you're not a coffee coffee drinker, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>you might find this pretty boring. But it's just a

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<v Speaker 2>really great coffee maker that kind of grinds the beans

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<v Speaker 2>and creates a crema on top, the way you do

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<v Speaker 2>with espresso, the way people make espresso. So it's just

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<v Speaker 2>very rich, very delicious. I like half and half in

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<v Speaker 2>my coffee, and it's just as my friend of mine says,

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<v Speaker 2>it's the best part of my day. And everything is

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<v Speaker 2>all downhill from there.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, it's the same machine that grinds the beans and

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<v Speaker 1>also makes the cup of coffee, that's correct. And what's

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<v Speaker 1>the name of that machine?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh shit, it's called Jura j U r A. And

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<v Speaker 2>I bought. I bought this coffee maker from my mother

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<v Speaker 2>a million years ago, and she said, I cannot be

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<v Speaker 2>bothered with this. I just need these little you know,

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<v Speaker 2>these cups that you yeah, yeah, she she just said,

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<v Speaker 2>I can't be bothered with this. So I took it

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<v Speaker 2>home and it's my favorite thing.

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<v Speaker 1>Assuming one where to buy it at retail? How expensive

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<v Speaker 1>a unit.

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<v Speaker 2>Is this, Bob? I don't think, I want to say?

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<v Speaker 1>Okay. The only reason I ask, as I say, I

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<v Speaker 1>have an interest is even though I don't drink coffee.

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<v Speaker 1>Is of the standard machines, they say, the best one

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<v Speaker 1>is the Mocha Master, which is not cheap.

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<v Speaker 2>Never heard of it? Oh, but that doesn't that doesn't

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<v Speaker 2>mean anything.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, the Moca Master, I forget what country and Europe.

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<v Speaker 1>You know you're gonna you can get it for less

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<v Speaker 1>than three hundred dollars. But you're spending that kind of money?

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<v Speaker 1>Are you saying? The machine you have is one step

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<v Speaker 1>beyond that?

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<v Speaker 2>Indeed, it's a made in Switzerland, I believe, and they're pricey.

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<v Speaker 2>But again, as I said, I bought it for my mother,

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<v Speaker 2>so I would have spent any amount of money on

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<v Speaker 2>my mom because she was pretty cool.

0:15:29.160 --> 0:15:33.359
<v Speaker 1>Okay, in what area do you indulge yourself financially?

0:15:36.320 --> 0:15:47.760
<v Speaker 2>God, oh my god, that's a I don't know. I mean,

0:15:47.800 --> 0:15:57.480
<v Speaker 2>I think I'm a kind of frugal person, so you know, uh,

0:15:57.560 --> 0:16:01.200
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. Whatever it takes to keep my dog

0:16:01.280 --> 0:16:05.920
<v Speaker 2>and cat healthy, you know, that can be very that

0:16:05.960 --> 0:16:14.080
<v Speaker 2>can be very expensive. Probably the guitars that I play.

0:16:14.960 --> 0:16:18.640
<v Speaker 2>I would indulge myself in those instruments because they're pretty

0:16:19.680 --> 0:16:23.360
<v Speaker 2>wonderful things and they're the tools of my trade. So

0:16:24.640 --> 0:16:33.760
<v Speaker 2>I think that's worth worth it. Oh, I know. I so,

0:16:33.880 --> 0:16:37.760
<v Speaker 2>a couple of summers ago, or a couple of years ago,

0:16:38.000 --> 0:16:41.840
<v Speaker 2>I took the year off because I had terrible arthritis

0:16:41.880 --> 0:16:44.160
<v Speaker 2>in my hand. So I took the year off to

0:16:44.160 --> 0:16:47.080
<v Speaker 2>get my hand fixed, as I put it. And it

0:16:47.200 --> 0:16:51.240
<v Speaker 2>was the year that the Olympics were on and all

0:16:51.240 --> 0:16:53.480
<v Speaker 2>the sports and whatever. Anyway, I knew I was going

0:16:53.560 --> 0:16:55.560
<v Speaker 2>to be spending a lot of time sitting on the sofa.

0:16:56.320 --> 0:16:59.240
<v Speaker 2>So I went out and I bought a big television.

0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:03.000
<v Speaker 2>And I felt like such a Oh I felt like

0:17:03.080 --> 0:17:07.680
<v Speaker 2>such a slob doing that, But now, oh my god,

0:17:07.720 --> 0:17:08.760
<v Speaker 2>I love it so much.

0:17:09.400 --> 0:17:11.280
<v Speaker 1>So how much television do you watch? Now?

0:17:13.359 --> 0:17:16.880
<v Speaker 2>I only watch TV. So I'm weird this way. Hopefully

0:17:16.920 --> 0:17:19.960
<v Speaker 2>maybe I'm not so weird if your listeners relate to this.

0:17:22.320 --> 0:17:27.159
<v Speaker 2>During the day, I never turned the television on, and

0:17:27.200 --> 0:17:29.800
<v Speaker 2>I rarely allow myself to to.

0:17:31.880 --> 0:17:32.280
<v Speaker 1>Sort of.

0:17:33.720 --> 0:17:38.040
<v Speaker 2>Retire to the sofa and read. It's like, I only

0:17:38.080 --> 0:17:41.520
<v Speaker 2>watch television if it's in the evening, and I'll only

0:17:41.600 --> 0:17:44.320
<v Speaker 2>read if it's in the evening. It's as if day

0:17:44.400 --> 0:17:49.359
<v Speaker 2>is over now it's time to lose yourself in a

0:17:49.440 --> 0:17:51.879
<v Speaker 2>show or a great book or whatever it is. But

0:17:52.000 --> 0:17:54.080
<v Speaker 2>during the day, I feel like I have to be

0:17:54.800 --> 0:18:02.400
<v Speaker 2>working and producing and walking my dog and doing admin

0:18:02.720 --> 0:18:05.959
<v Speaker 2>and just taking care of things. It's like I just

0:18:06.080 --> 0:18:13.240
<v Speaker 2>can't allow myself to watch television during the day or whatever.

0:18:13.280 --> 0:18:15.479
<v Speaker 2>It would make me feel like such a slacker, which is

0:18:15.520 --> 0:18:19.160
<v Speaker 2>so judgy and stupid. But that's just the way I am.

0:18:19.520 --> 0:18:21.360
<v Speaker 1>Okay, if you go to bed at eight, when you're

0:18:21.400 --> 0:18:26.000
<v Speaker 1>in control, and what time does the admin and the

0:18:26.359 --> 0:18:28.720
<v Speaker 1>walking the door? What time is what's the cutoff time?

0:18:29.480 --> 0:18:30.400
<v Speaker 2>About four o'clock?

0:18:31.080 --> 0:18:36.080
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so four o'clock. Yeah, when would you decide to

0:18:36.240 --> 0:18:38.040
<v Speaker 1>read or watch.

0:18:37.760 --> 0:18:40.359
<v Speaker 2>Television anytime after that?

0:18:40.560 --> 0:18:43.879
<v Speaker 1>No? No, when would it be reading as opposed to

0:18:43.920 --> 0:18:46.320
<v Speaker 1>television or television as opposed to reading.

0:18:47.359 --> 0:18:50.560
<v Speaker 2>Just depends on my mood. It's a moody thing.

0:18:50.800 --> 0:18:54.440
<v Speaker 1>And when you read, what do you read? Oh?

0:18:54.520 --> 0:19:02.800
<v Speaker 2>I love novels, what I love history. My stack of

0:19:02.840 --> 0:19:06.800
<v Speaker 2>books on my bedside table is just hot gets higher

0:19:06.800 --> 0:19:11.080
<v Speaker 2>and higher. You know that term sundoku, it's a Japanese term.

0:19:11.160 --> 0:19:11.520
<v Speaker 1>I do not.

0:19:12.359 --> 0:19:15.360
<v Speaker 2>Okay, this is the second thing exactly.

0:19:14.920 --> 0:19:17.200
<v Speaker 1>Where it'll be coming three, So I'm waiting for the third.

0:19:17.880 --> 0:19:25.800
<v Speaker 2>Okay, we'll get to it. Sundoku is a term loosely translated,

0:19:25.880 --> 0:19:31.600
<v Speaker 2>it's it's about abundance of books that you may never

0:19:31.680 --> 0:19:36.080
<v Speaker 2>get to. But it's the act of collecting them that

0:19:36.240 --> 0:19:39.680
<v Speaker 2>is the point. And so it's okay if you never

0:19:39.760 --> 0:19:42.199
<v Speaker 2>get to them, but it's it's it's the act of

0:19:42.240 --> 0:19:48.240
<v Speaker 2>collecting books that you may or may not read.

0:19:48.400 --> 0:19:52.480
<v Speaker 1>Okay, I understand the concept. Where did you encounter the.

0:19:52.440 --> 0:19:59.920
<v Speaker 2>Word waash know on amaiwa Meddi chip and Carpenter, I don't.

0:20:00.480 --> 0:20:03.880
<v Speaker 2>That's me saying my name is Mary Chapin Carpenter and Japanese.

0:20:03.920 --> 0:20:05.919
<v Speaker 2>When I was a kid, we lived over in Japan

0:20:06.080 --> 0:20:09.320
<v Speaker 2>for a few years because of my father's jow But

0:20:10.359 --> 0:20:12.040
<v Speaker 2>I don't think I learned it there. I think I

0:20:12.160 --> 0:20:17.240
<v Speaker 2>learned it years ago, just by accident because someone I knew,

0:20:17.359 --> 0:20:20.800
<v Speaker 2>or people would remark, on, Jesus Christ, how many books

0:20:20.800 --> 0:20:24.240
<v Speaker 2>do you have that you're just sitting on, you know,

0:20:24.920 --> 0:20:28.120
<v Speaker 2>and someone would have enlightened me as to that there's

0:20:28.160 --> 0:20:29.399
<v Speaker 2>an actual term for that.

0:20:37.600 --> 0:20:39.760
<v Speaker 1>So this is not a test, because I hate when

0:20:39.760 --> 0:20:43.479
<v Speaker 1>people confront me this way. Yeah, within the last ten years,

0:20:44.400 --> 0:20:46.560
<v Speaker 1>can you name a couple of books that had an

0:20:46.600 --> 0:20:49.920
<v Speaker 1>impact that you thought were great for whatever reason? Yeah?

0:20:50.080 --> 0:20:51.760
<v Speaker 2>Anything by Elizabeth Strout.

0:20:52.040 --> 0:20:53.800
<v Speaker 1>Oh, those are all good, each one of them.

0:20:54.000 --> 0:21:00.439
<v Speaker 2>She's so great and I love and I can just

0:21:00.600 --> 0:21:05.679
<v Speaker 2>detour for a second. It's like a guiding kind of

0:21:08.080 --> 0:21:11.240
<v Speaker 2>declaration for me. There's this She has a novel called

0:21:11.280 --> 0:21:16.800
<v Speaker 2>My Name is Lucy Burton, and the narrator in that

0:21:16.840 --> 0:21:21.440
<v Speaker 2>book talks about how she takes she's taking a creative

0:21:21.480 --> 0:21:27.520
<v Speaker 2>writing course, and the instructor says to her, then, I'm paraphrasing,

0:21:27.560 --> 0:21:32.960
<v Speaker 2>of course, because I can't remember exactly. But she hands

0:21:32.960 --> 0:21:37.480
<v Speaker 2>in an assignment or whatever or gets stuck on her

0:21:38.240 --> 0:21:42.440
<v Speaker 2>her writing assignment, and the instructor says, don't worry about

0:21:42.760 --> 0:21:46.800
<v Speaker 2>the story. We all have just one story. And we

0:21:46.880 --> 0:21:50.840
<v Speaker 2>tell it, Yes, we tell it many different ways. And

0:21:51.400 --> 0:21:54.399
<v Speaker 2>I remember in the moment that I was in bed

0:21:54.560 --> 0:22:02.480
<v Speaker 2>reading that line and I said out loud like, oh, oh,

0:22:02.800 --> 0:22:06.399
<v Speaker 2>that's what the songs are. It's like, that's it, that

0:22:07.080 --> 0:22:11.960
<v Speaker 2>was it, and that I know I'm reaching, but but

0:22:12.000 --> 0:22:15.840
<v Speaker 2>I'm not really back to the very first thing we

0:22:15.840 --> 0:22:19.320
<v Speaker 2>were talking about about, you know, the songs and personal

0:22:19.400 --> 0:22:22.200
<v Speaker 2>history and what does it come from. That really in

0:22:22.720 --> 0:22:29.680
<v Speaker 2>that whole thought informed to me the idea that this

0:22:29.800 --> 0:22:33.719
<v Speaker 2>record was like songs as memoir. It's like all these

0:22:33.800 --> 0:22:38.320
<v Speaker 2>different lives that we that we inhabit over the course

0:22:38.359 --> 0:22:43.760
<v Speaker 2>of our one life, but we tell them. We tell

0:22:43.800 --> 0:22:48.119
<v Speaker 2>these stories so many different ways. And that moment in

0:22:48.240 --> 0:22:51.760
<v Speaker 2>my name is Lucy Barton, to me, it was sort

0:22:51.760 --> 0:22:54.640
<v Speaker 2>of like a bingo moment. It just was like, ah,

0:22:54.760 --> 0:22:59.159
<v Speaker 2>that that is exactly how I feel. So anyway, I

0:22:59.240 --> 0:23:05.000
<v Speaker 2>digress anything by Elizabeth Strout, anything by Lauren Growth, anything

0:23:05.040 --> 0:23:16.200
<v Speaker 2>by Ian McEwan, Oh my gosh. And then there's you know, oh,

0:23:16.200 --> 0:23:17.640
<v Speaker 2>there's just a lot. There's a lot.

0:23:18.760 --> 0:23:21.840
<v Speaker 1>You know. I keep bringing this up with people. Did

0:23:21.920 --> 0:23:24.120
<v Speaker 1>you read Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow?

0:23:25.280 --> 0:23:28.440
<v Speaker 2>I'm the only person probably who hasn't, but it's been

0:23:28.480 --> 0:23:33.359
<v Speaker 2>recommended to me so many times. Really again, yeah, absolutely,

0:23:33.600 --> 0:23:36.840
<v Speaker 2>And so I'm sort of slightly ashamed because.

0:23:36.560 --> 0:23:38.199
<v Speaker 1>Now I feel like, you know, I don't feel like

0:23:38.240 --> 0:23:42.960
<v Speaker 1>such an individual since everybody's recommending it. Yeah, it does.

0:23:43.000 --> 0:23:44.920
<v Speaker 1>It sound like that's the only book I ever read.

0:23:45.200 --> 0:23:49.199
<v Speaker 1>But let's just flip it. If you're watching television, what

0:23:49.240 --> 0:23:50.679
<v Speaker 1>are you watching on television?

0:23:51.280 --> 0:23:55.920
<v Speaker 2>Oh god, that's a whole nother thing that really does.

0:23:57.920 --> 0:24:03.560
<v Speaker 2>That decision is truly informed by mood. Like you know,

0:24:03.840 --> 0:24:06.600
<v Speaker 2>I don't know about you, but there are days or

0:24:06.680 --> 0:24:12.280
<v Speaker 2>evenings I should say when I just I just feel blank,

0:24:13.359 --> 0:24:16.680
<v Speaker 2>and I don't want to have to work too hard

0:24:17.240 --> 0:24:23.240
<v Speaker 2>to just chill out, and so I'll watch like stupid shit,

0:24:23.520 --> 0:24:27.879
<v Speaker 2>you know, just like like a home show on HGTV.

0:24:30.200 --> 0:24:33.960
<v Speaker 2>But right now, for example, it's very exciting after four

0:24:33.960 --> 0:24:38.639
<v Speaker 2>o'clock these evenings because I'm watching The American Revolution by

0:24:38.720 --> 0:24:45.919
<v Speaker 2>Ken Burns. So that's very rich and broad and you

0:24:46.000 --> 0:24:48.680
<v Speaker 2>have to pay very close attention because there's so much

0:24:48.880 --> 0:24:53.600
<v Speaker 2>that they're telling you. So that's not for a blank night,

0:24:54.359 --> 0:24:57.360
<v Speaker 2>that's for an engaged night. But I love it. It's

0:24:57.400 --> 0:25:01.040
<v Speaker 2>like I love having something to look forward to in

0:25:01.119 --> 0:25:01.680
<v Speaker 2>the queue.

0:25:01.720 --> 0:25:04.520
<v Speaker 1>Are you a Ken Burns person? And have you watched

0:25:04.600 --> 0:25:07.040
<v Speaker 1>jazz and baseball and all this stuff?

0:25:08.040 --> 0:25:11.960
<v Speaker 2>No? Not not a not a you know, a true follower.

0:25:12.160 --> 0:25:13.240
<v Speaker 2>I mean I'm cherry pick.

0:25:14.600 --> 0:25:17.399
<v Speaker 1>And how about Netflix series stuff like that? Do you

0:25:17.400 --> 0:25:18.120
<v Speaker 1>watch any of that.

0:25:19.359 --> 0:25:21.120
<v Speaker 2>If it's British crime dramas?

0:25:21.240 --> 0:25:26.199
<v Speaker 1>Yes? Okay, So what's what's the best British crime drama?

0:25:27.200 --> 0:25:28.119
<v Speaker 2>Line of Duty?

0:25:28.200 --> 0:25:30.240
<v Speaker 1>Line of Duty's phenomenal, phenomenal.

0:25:30.320 --> 0:25:33.320
<v Speaker 2>Okay, so you know what I'm talking about. Yeah, okay,

0:25:33.440 --> 0:25:34.679
<v Speaker 2>have you seen Blue Lights?

0:25:35.000 --> 0:25:36.920
<v Speaker 1>Of course I haven't seen the new season, but I've

0:25:36.920 --> 0:25:37.760
<v Speaker 1>seen Blue.

0:25:37.520 --> 0:25:39.840
<v Speaker 2>I haven't either. I'm It's like, I'm way, I've got

0:25:39.920 --> 0:25:43.560
<v Speaker 2>it in my queue and I'm waiting. Rather, I should say,

0:25:43.600 --> 0:25:44.240
<v Speaker 2>I'm hoarding.

0:25:46.080 --> 0:25:48.480
<v Speaker 1>What's your name? How come I Sarah Lancasher?

0:25:49.119 --> 0:25:54.879
<v Speaker 2>What's yes, Sarah Lancash? What's Sally? Uh? The creator of

0:25:56.280 --> 0:26:00.479
<v Speaker 2>right Jesus Sally? I can't like do my thing, but

0:26:00.840 --> 0:26:02.720
<v Speaker 2>she's the writer of like Happy.

0:26:02.480 --> 0:26:04.880
<v Speaker 1>Valley, Happy Valley. That's what I was saying. Oh yeah,

0:26:04.920 --> 0:26:07.720
<v Speaker 1>the latest season of Happy Valley wasn't good, but the

0:26:07.760 --> 0:26:09.880
<v Speaker 1>ones before that I thought were the best.

0:26:10.520 --> 0:26:13.120
<v Speaker 2>So in other words, the one where he meets his end.

0:26:13.200 --> 0:26:16.920
<v Speaker 2>You didn't think that was good? Okay, Well I don't think.

0:26:16.920 --> 0:26:20.320
<v Speaker 2>I don't think I disagree with you about that. I

0:26:20.320 --> 0:26:24.120
<v Speaker 2>mean the earlier seasons they were remarkable, unbelieving.

0:26:24.280 --> 0:26:26.680
<v Speaker 1>That was my number. That was my tomorrow tomorrow tomorrow

0:26:26.800 --> 0:26:27.880
<v Speaker 1>of television.

0:26:28.880 --> 0:26:30.719
<v Speaker 2>I hear you, I hear you.

0:26:30.840 --> 0:26:33.080
<v Speaker 1>And what about broad Church? You watch broad Church?

0:26:33.480 --> 0:26:38.240
<v Speaker 2>Loved broad Church, loved it. I just think British TV

0:26:38.840 --> 0:26:43.000
<v Speaker 2>in general is so much better than Americans. It's like,

0:26:43.040 --> 0:26:47.359
<v Speaker 2>I don't even remember the last time I got stuck

0:26:47.400 --> 0:26:53.639
<v Speaker 2>in to some sort of US mystery series or crime drummer.

0:26:53.680 --> 0:26:55.760
<v Speaker 2>It's like I just don't even go there anymore. It's

0:26:55.760 --> 0:26:58.560
<v Speaker 2>like I I wait for the good British shows. You know?

0:26:59.160 --> 0:27:01.359
<v Speaker 1>How about you know they say the Danes in the

0:27:01.440 --> 0:27:04.840
<v Speaker 1>Israelis make the best TV. So if you watched any

0:27:04.880 --> 0:27:06.680
<v Speaker 1>of the Scandinavian noir and.

0:27:06.600 --> 0:27:11.439
<v Speaker 2>That stuff, I what was the one with Kenneth Brawna,

0:27:11.520 --> 0:27:15.280
<v Speaker 2>didn't he sort of adapt a Danish drama for.

0:27:15.640 --> 0:27:18.120
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but I can't remember what it is. Yeah?

0:27:18.240 --> 0:27:20.919
<v Speaker 2>I thought that was pretty good. But in general, I

0:27:20.920 --> 0:27:26.920
<v Speaker 2>don't think I have followed the Danes or Israeli ad adaptation.

0:27:27.119 --> 0:27:30.680
<v Speaker 1>Well, when the next, you know, lockdown comes, you got

0:27:30.680 --> 0:27:31.720
<v Speaker 1>a lot to look forward to.

0:27:32.520 --> 0:27:34.399
<v Speaker 2>Oh Jesus, let's hope not.

0:27:36.080 --> 0:27:41.439
<v Speaker 1>Okay. So also on the new album, I find a

0:27:41.560 --> 0:27:46.320
<v Speaker 1>through line of reflection on aging. Is that something you're

0:27:46.359 --> 0:27:47.040
<v Speaker 1>thinking about?

0:27:47.920 --> 0:27:52.600
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, that's, you know, front and center on this record

0:27:52.600 --> 0:27:57.360
<v Speaker 2>as a theme and a connecting thread. It was very

0:27:57.400 --> 0:28:04.440
<v Speaker 2>deliberate actually for the very last song on the record,

0:28:04.720 --> 0:28:05.080
<v Speaker 2>which is.

0:28:05.040 --> 0:28:06.960
<v Speaker 1>Which is probably the best song other than one of

0:28:07.080 --> 0:28:09.399
<v Speaker 1>You and Your Dog. Those two are the best songs

0:28:09.440 --> 0:28:10.080
<v Speaker 1>on the record, but.

0:28:10.080 --> 0:28:13.440
<v Speaker 2>Continue, well, appreciate your opinion.

0:28:14.440 --> 0:28:16.119
<v Speaker 1>Probably don't agree, but that's my opinion.

0:28:16.720 --> 0:28:22.000
<v Speaker 2>No, I'm not in a position at all to tell

0:28:22.240 --> 0:28:24.920
<v Speaker 2>to say to anyone, oh, this is the best song

0:28:25.400 --> 0:28:29.919
<v Speaker 2>or it's like And also I can't quite you know,

0:28:29.960 --> 0:28:32.080
<v Speaker 2>I can't sort of divide it up that way. It's like,

0:28:32.119 --> 0:28:34.640
<v Speaker 2>to me, it's a it's a whole it's a it's

0:28:34.680 --> 0:28:38.680
<v Speaker 2>a whole, complete thing. If one of those songs fell out,

0:28:38.920 --> 0:28:41.880
<v Speaker 2>I would feel like there's a hole in the midst

0:28:41.920 --> 0:28:50.280
<v Speaker 2>of this, you know, painting whatever. But anyway, coda, you know,

0:28:50.360 --> 0:28:55.160
<v Speaker 2>to me, it speaks absolutely about the idea of growing

0:28:55.200 --> 0:29:00.040
<v Speaker 2>older and how to sort of navigate that. And and

0:29:00.040 --> 0:29:03.120
<v Speaker 2>then in the end, it's sort of like this, this

0:29:03.480 --> 0:29:06.280
<v Speaker 2>moment of sort of facing yourself and just saying it's

0:29:06.280 --> 0:29:10.480
<v Speaker 2>about gratitude for what you have. But to me, it

0:29:10.560 --> 0:29:14.840
<v Speaker 2>was very important that that song be open ended. And

0:29:14.880 --> 0:29:17.360
<v Speaker 2>it's like it's not saying it's over, it's done, it's

0:29:18.000 --> 0:29:22.320
<v Speaker 2>life is finished, but rather there is more to come.

0:29:23.280 --> 0:29:28.240
<v Speaker 2>But this is an acknowledgment of where I am right

0:29:28.280 --> 0:29:34.239
<v Speaker 2>now in my life and and I'm incredibly grateful for it.

0:29:35.240 --> 0:29:39.280
<v Speaker 1>Well, people from the baby boomer era, of which both

0:29:39.280 --> 0:29:44.200
<v Speaker 1>of us are members, don't talk about aging. Everybody I

0:29:44.240 --> 0:29:46.360
<v Speaker 1>know seems to feel like they're going to live forever.

0:29:47.640 --> 0:29:50.920
<v Speaker 2>Why do you think that is? Why don't Why do

0:29:50.960 --> 0:29:52.760
<v Speaker 2>you think it is that? Because that's one of the

0:29:52.760 --> 0:29:54.959
<v Speaker 2>things I did want to talk about on this record.

0:29:55.240 --> 0:29:59.600
<v Speaker 2>And it's as if but it's like for me, it

0:29:59.680 --> 0:30:06.440
<v Speaker 2>leads into a lot of other sort of connected conversations

0:30:06.480 --> 0:30:11.760
<v Speaker 2>about like agism in the music business and agism in life,

0:30:12.200 --> 0:30:17.400
<v Speaker 2>and it's just it's like there's it's as if people

0:30:17.440 --> 0:30:20.360
<v Speaker 2>are afraid to talk about it or it's a taboo

0:30:20.440 --> 0:30:23.400
<v Speaker 2>or something like that. I don't, well, I think.

0:30:23.280 --> 0:30:27.480
<v Speaker 1>Everything you're seeing is true. You know, growing up, our

0:30:27.560 --> 0:30:30.360
<v Speaker 1>parents did not want to be kids. There were definitely

0:30:30.360 --> 0:30:32.400
<v Speaker 1>the adults in the room, not that they couldn't be

0:30:32.440 --> 0:30:37.840
<v Speaker 1>a reverend. Everybody today, you know, not literally everybody, but

0:30:37.880 --> 0:30:41.600
<v Speaker 1>a lot of people. They're working out, they're wearing kids clothes.

0:30:41.920 --> 0:30:46.240
<v Speaker 1>They don't want to admit that they're roled, even though

0:30:46.600 --> 0:30:47.320
<v Speaker 1>I mean one of the.

0:30:47.360 --> 0:30:51.280
<v Speaker 2>Older they're older, right, but.

0:30:50.520 --> 0:30:54.320
<v Speaker 1>The amazing thing about being two amazing thing is one

0:30:54.440 --> 0:31:01.320
<v Speaker 1>you're happier and b you have perspective. They would rather

0:31:02.840 --> 0:31:04.880
<v Speaker 1>keep their heads in the sands. Like most people I know,

0:31:04.920 --> 0:31:06.600
<v Speaker 1>they say, I want to die in my sleep. I

0:31:06.640 --> 0:31:07.880
<v Speaker 1>don't want to die in my sleep. I want to

0:31:07.880 --> 0:31:09.400
<v Speaker 1>be like Steve Jeff. I want to see it coming.

0:31:09.640 --> 0:31:11.080
<v Speaker 1>I want to know this is the end.

0:31:11.200 --> 0:31:17.760
<v Speaker 2>Really, oh, very see I fear that in a profound way.

0:31:19.480 --> 0:31:25.520
<v Speaker 2>It's like, I'm very aware of this in myself. Living

0:31:25.560 --> 0:31:33.240
<v Speaker 2>in suspense, if you will, being in suspense, some would say, oh,

0:31:33.240 --> 0:31:36.080
<v Speaker 2>that means not being in control, or however you want

0:31:36.120 --> 0:31:41.280
<v Speaker 2>to analyze it, but being in suspense, not knowing what's coming,

0:31:43.480 --> 0:31:48.440
<v Speaker 2>or rather if you had an illness, shall we say that,

0:31:48.720 --> 0:31:50.680
<v Speaker 2>Like you say you want to see it coming, right,

0:31:52.720 --> 0:31:55.440
<v Speaker 2>I think I don't think I'm cut out for that,

0:31:55.600 --> 0:32:01.600
<v Speaker 2>I want to be unaware that I'm nearly gone or something.

0:32:01.760 --> 0:32:05.440
<v Speaker 2>I think I would grieve too hard. I think I

0:32:05.440 --> 0:32:09.760
<v Speaker 2>would grieve terribly, and I don't want to go through that.

0:32:10.440 --> 0:32:13.640
<v Speaker 1>Let's go the other way. You can live another ten minutes,

0:32:13.680 --> 0:32:18.480
<v Speaker 1>you could live another thirty years. Okay, Right, If let's

0:32:18.520 --> 0:32:22.280
<v Speaker 1>just say we're talking, you died a year from now,

0:32:22.720 --> 0:32:24.880
<v Speaker 1>would you feel ripped off? And we say, well, that

0:32:25.040 --> 0:32:27.040
<v Speaker 1>a pretty good life, you know that's the end.

0:32:28.760 --> 0:32:34.480
<v Speaker 2>I don't think i'd feel ripped off. I feel very.

0:32:37.520 --> 0:32:37.720
<v Speaker 1>Well.

0:32:37.760 --> 0:32:43.960
<v Speaker 2>Again. There's so many things to this conversation. The first

0:32:43.960 --> 0:32:46.680
<v Speaker 2>thing I would say is, as far as this record goes,

0:32:46.880 --> 0:32:49.360
<v Speaker 2>there's no way I could have written this record thirty

0:32:49.440 --> 0:32:52.440
<v Speaker 2>years ago, or in my thirties, in my forties, in

0:32:52.480 --> 0:32:58.480
<v Speaker 2>my fifties. This is a work that is completely of

0:32:58.560 --> 0:33:02.760
<v Speaker 2>who I am now. So I have a real appreciation

0:33:03.040 --> 0:33:05.200
<v Speaker 2>for the passage of time and what it has given me.

0:33:07.600 --> 0:33:12.480
<v Speaker 2>The thing about not wanting to know that there's like

0:33:12.640 --> 0:33:15.120
<v Speaker 2>the end is coming next year or whatever, it's just

0:33:17.320 --> 0:33:21.200
<v Speaker 2>I think I would just I would miss It's like

0:33:21.360 --> 0:33:24.240
<v Speaker 2>I just all I would. I think I would be

0:33:24.280 --> 0:33:27.800
<v Speaker 2>obsessed with what I was going to miss, even though

0:33:28.040 --> 0:33:32.800
<v Speaker 2>as people say, oh, well you're not alive to miss anything,

0:33:33.520 --> 0:33:36.160
<v Speaker 2>but well, my brain doesn't work.

0:33:36.320 --> 0:33:38.760
<v Speaker 1>I think some of this is a function of aging.

0:33:39.040 --> 0:33:42.720
<v Speaker 1>Right thirty, everybody's freaked out about is no big deal?

0:33:43.240 --> 0:33:46.720
<v Speaker 1>Forty fund me up? Pretty good, fifty, no big deal?

0:33:47.320 --> 0:33:51.960
<v Speaker 1>Hits sixty really weird because I felt like I'd seen

0:33:52.040 --> 0:33:54.640
<v Speaker 1>the trick. It's like when you're within a grocery store

0:33:54.640 --> 0:33:56.640
<v Speaker 1>and your little kid. I want this. I want that.

0:33:56.960 --> 0:33:59.520
<v Speaker 1>They're all that I've to going. If something's good, I'll

0:33:59.520 --> 0:34:01.880
<v Speaker 1>find out about it. In addition, a lot of this

0:34:02.040 --> 0:34:05.560
<v Speaker 1>is hype when you turn seventy. This is something we're

0:34:05.560 --> 0:34:09.280
<v Speaker 1>seeing in America at large with these political figures trend sevy.

0:34:10.160 --> 0:34:14.120
<v Speaker 1>It's just you're aware the end is somewhere, and you're

0:34:14.160 --> 0:34:20.360
<v Speaker 1>aware that nobody matters, so you can theoretically evaluate the

0:34:20.440 --> 0:34:23.960
<v Speaker 1>path forward, which I find most people do not. And

0:34:24.000 --> 0:34:27.279
<v Speaker 1>then you have these congress people you know in their

0:34:27.360 --> 0:34:31.319
<v Speaker 1>seventies and eighties refuse to retire, and especially with all

0:34:31.400 --> 0:34:35.000
<v Speaker 1>the technological developments of the past thirty years, they're completely

0:34:35.040 --> 0:34:36.759
<v Speaker 1>out of touch. I mean, if you're somebody in your

0:34:36.880 --> 0:34:39.680
<v Speaker 1>twenties or thirties, you're not even speaking the same language,

0:34:39.719 --> 0:34:46.080
<v Speaker 1>and they're very pompously saying we know, okay, So on

0:34:46.120 --> 0:34:49.239
<v Speaker 1>some level I feel sorry for them because they're so

0:34:49.480 --> 0:34:54.200
<v Speaker 1>busy doing I'll use it a music business example. I

0:34:54.239 --> 0:34:56.799
<v Speaker 1>know these guys who have this magazine, they've been doing

0:34:56.840 --> 0:34:59.719
<v Speaker 1>the same thing for forty years. The only thing that

0:34:59.800 --> 0:35:02.279
<v Speaker 1>is change is the name of the acts. How do

0:35:02.360 --> 0:35:05.520
<v Speaker 1>you do that? I mean, there's a lot of money involved,

0:35:05.520 --> 0:35:11.359
<v Speaker 1>but it's like it be brain dead. You know. It's

0:35:11.480 --> 0:35:14.000
<v Speaker 1>kind of like talking to Kenny Chestney and he says,

0:35:14.680 --> 0:35:18.000
<v Speaker 1>you know, yeah, I had a big hit with you know,

0:35:18.080 --> 0:35:19.800
<v Speaker 1>she's in love with my tractor whatever the hell of

0:35:19.800 --> 0:35:22.680
<v Speaker 1>the song is, says, thank god I didn't continue to

0:35:22.719 --> 0:35:26.280
<v Speaker 1>write that song. You know that I could grow, whereas

0:35:26.280 --> 0:35:29.120
<v Speaker 1>a lot of people they do the same thing. I

0:35:29.280 --> 0:35:31.320
<v Speaker 1>just don't know how they do it. And the same

0:35:31.360 --> 0:35:35.239
<v Speaker 1>thing with aging, and you know, I thought it was

0:35:35.280 --> 0:35:39.239
<v Speaker 1>great that you addressed it. But it's illegal. I mean,

0:35:39.280 --> 0:35:44.160
<v Speaker 1>it's really just a riffing here. But it's like mostly

0:35:44.200 --> 0:35:47.799
<v Speaker 1>the male acts they get plastic surgery to look young.

0:35:48.000 --> 0:35:52.320
<v Speaker 1>The audience looks old, in some cases terrible, and nobody

0:35:52.400 --> 0:35:55.239
<v Speaker 1>under the age of forty or fifty even cares or

0:35:55.239 --> 0:35:58.560
<v Speaker 1>goes but they die there here they get plastics or

0:35:58.680 --> 0:35:59.760
<v Speaker 1>they're like, who you fooling?

0:36:00.680 --> 0:36:04.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think also, I mean, I remember this so well.

0:36:04.600 --> 0:36:07.000
<v Speaker 2>It was years and years and years ago. I was

0:36:07.040 --> 0:36:10.239
<v Speaker 2>signed as I was on Sony and I'd had a

0:36:11.640 --> 0:36:17.000
<v Speaker 2>I had had a big song, and it was I

0:36:17.040 --> 0:36:19.800
<v Speaker 2>was in the midst of making my next record, and

0:36:19.840 --> 0:36:23.719
<v Speaker 2>the A and R gentleman called me up, and I

0:36:23.800 --> 0:36:25.959
<v Speaker 2>think they were sort of like, where is where's the record?

0:36:25.960 --> 0:36:28.600
<v Speaker 2>We're waiting for it, you know, And I said, I'm

0:36:28.640 --> 0:36:32.600
<v Speaker 2>working on it. And he said the song that I

0:36:33.480 --> 0:36:36.399
<v Speaker 2>the so called hit that i'd had was a song

0:36:36.440 --> 0:36:41.000
<v Speaker 2>called down at the Twist and Shout and he he said,

0:36:41.120 --> 0:36:43.600
<v Speaker 2>and I do quote exactly. He said, well, don't you

0:36:43.640 --> 0:36:48.560
<v Speaker 2>have another twist and shout and I and I just

0:36:48.719 --> 0:36:50.920
<v Speaker 2>stopped and I just said, why would I want to

0:36:50.920 --> 0:36:54.040
<v Speaker 2>do the same thing over and over again? And it

0:36:54.120 --> 0:36:58.000
<v Speaker 2>was like he didn't, he didn't give a shit. He

0:36:58.120 --> 0:37:00.840
<v Speaker 2>just wanted to know what was coming down the pipeline

0:37:00.840 --> 0:37:02.520
<v Speaker 2>so he could figure out what his bonus was going

0:37:02.600 --> 0:37:05.480
<v Speaker 2>to be or something. I mean, it was just, you know,

0:37:05.600 --> 0:37:09.000
<v Speaker 2>it was the enemy of creativity.

0:37:09.280 --> 0:37:12.480
<v Speaker 1>There you go, Well, let's flip it over. You were

0:37:12.560 --> 0:37:15.799
<v Speaker 1>part of the major label system and had great success,

0:37:16.600 --> 0:37:18.919
<v Speaker 1>and there were two things going on at the same time.

0:37:18.960 --> 0:37:21.600
<v Speaker 1>You have an arc of a career but also changes

0:37:21.640 --> 0:37:26.520
<v Speaker 1>in the business. So when you add success in the nineties,

0:37:27.680 --> 0:37:32.000
<v Speaker 1>assuming you had success, I mean anybody, everybody in that

0:37:32.040 --> 0:37:35.600
<v Speaker 1>world would know who you are, know what was going on,

0:37:36.560 --> 0:37:41.000
<v Speaker 1>whereas today most of the hit acts, people are unaware

0:37:41.040 --> 0:37:43.440
<v Speaker 1>of their music. Maybe they know their name. It's like

0:37:43.480 --> 0:37:47.040
<v Speaker 1>for all that talk about Taylor Swift, I go place,

0:37:47.080 --> 0:37:50.720
<v Speaker 1>people can't name two songs, or if you hit young people,

0:37:51.000 --> 0:37:54.239
<v Speaker 1>they can't sing them. Whereas it used to be if

0:37:54.239 --> 0:37:58.239
<v Speaker 1>it was a hit, everybody knew it. So in this

0:37:58.560 --> 0:38:02.600
<v Speaker 1>world you're in total control because you can make the

0:38:02.680 --> 0:38:05.719
<v Speaker 1>music you want whatever. But does it frustrate you that

0:38:05.800 --> 0:38:08.120
<v Speaker 1>it's harder to reach a mass audience.

0:38:10.280 --> 0:38:12.840
<v Speaker 2>I don't think frustration is the is the word I

0:38:12.840 --> 0:38:19.400
<v Speaker 2>would use. It's it's a consequence of I mean that

0:38:19.600 --> 0:38:28.680
<v Speaker 2>just the fire hose of of of of content, you know, music, content, whatever.

0:38:29.320 --> 0:38:31.520
<v Speaker 2>It's just it's like you put a record out on

0:38:31.560 --> 0:38:35.120
<v Speaker 2>a Friday and it's forgotten by Monday. If you're lucky, right,

0:38:35.239 --> 0:38:39.040
<v Speaker 2>you know, if even if it even made it through

0:38:39.080 --> 0:38:43.880
<v Speaker 2>the weekend, right, and there are some exceptions to that,

0:38:43.960 --> 0:38:47.520
<v Speaker 2>but generally I think that's the way it is now, right,

0:38:47.840 --> 0:38:54.480
<v Speaker 2>And you know, it's it's like, I wouldn't call it frustrating.

0:38:57.280 --> 0:38:59.960
<v Speaker 2>Well maybe it would. Yeah, maybe i'd say it's frustrating.

0:39:00.040 --> 0:39:01.640
<v Speaker 2>But on the other hand, there's a part of me

0:39:01.719 --> 0:39:05.320
<v Speaker 2>that feels really strongly about well, no one is entitled

0:39:05.360 --> 0:39:11.080
<v Speaker 2>to It's like, you know, it can't. It's not like

0:39:11.120 --> 0:39:14.880
<v Speaker 2>I deserve to be heard by more people or something.

0:39:14.920 --> 0:39:17.400
<v Speaker 2>It's like, it's just that's just not the way it works.

0:39:17.680 --> 0:39:21.479
<v Speaker 2>But it's just it is different from when I started out.

0:39:22.840 --> 0:39:26.440
<v Speaker 2>But also the fact that I had any kind of

0:39:28.960 --> 0:39:31.600
<v Speaker 2>no Arriet or whatever to me is still a complete shock.

0:39:31.800 --> 0:39:32.799
<v Speaker 2>So I don't know.

0:39:41.560 --> 0:39:45.759
<v Speaker 1>Well, in addition to this arc of technology, the arc

0:39:45.800 --> 0:39:49.640
<v Speaker 1>of a career is you've been to the mountaintop. There

0:39:49.680 --> 0:39:53.600
<v Speaker 1>are a few exceptions, the Eagles, Paul McCartney, even whatever,

0:39:54.040 --> 0:39:58.400
<v Speaker 1>But the other acts been into the mountaintop. Audience decreases

0:39:58.600 --> 0:40:02.800
<v Speaker 1>to some point. You know, they're not telling as many tickets,

0:40:03.320 --> 0:40:06.160
<v Speaker 1>people are not listening to the music as much. How

0:40:06.160 --> 0:40:08.360
<v Speaker 1>does one metabolize or coope with that?

0:40:08.840 --> 0:40:13.719
<v Speaker 2>Well, first of all, it would be helpful if the

0:40:13.800 --> 0:40:17.560
<v Speaker 2>people that you are fortunate enough to spend some time

0:40:17.600 --> 0:40:20.520
<v Speaker 2>talking to in the journalists, the people who are writing

0:40:20.680 --> 0:40:26.440
<v Speaker 2>about X new record or whatever it is. I'm still

0:40:26.440 --> 0:40:29.200
<v Speaker 2>thinking about this. It was someone I spoke with last

0:40:29.200 --> 0:40:35.279
<v Speaker 2>summer about the record, and he asked me, why are

0:40:35.320 --> 0:40:44.080
<v Speaker 2>you still doing this? I was astonished by that question,

0:40:44.640 --> 0:40:48.800
<v Speaker 2>first of all, just and I once I stopped laughing

0:40:51.080 --> 0:40:54.160
<v Speaker 2>and sort of how I had a lot of responses.

0:40:54.160 --> 0:40:56.279
<v Speaker 2>I felt like it was rude. I felt like it

0:40:56.320 --> 0:41:01.640
<v Speaker 2>was kind of thoughtless and clueless. And and then I,

0:41:01.960 --> 0:41:05.640
<v Speaker 2>you know, moved into the next phase, which was not

0:41:05.760 --> 0:41:09.200
<v Speaker 2>to in any way suggest that I'm on the same

0:41:09.560 --> 0:41:12.480
<v Speaker 2>level as this person. But if he was talking to

0:41:12.520 --> 0:41:15.040
<v Speaker 2>Bruce Springsteen, would he say, Bruce, why are you still

0:41:15.080 --> 0:41:15.520
<v Speaker 2>doing this?

0:41:15.719 --> 0:41:15.960
<v Speaker 1>You know?

0:41:16.640 --> 0:41:20.719
<v Speaker 2>It's just again it just felt like what And so

0:41:20.760 --> 0:41:25.040
<v Speaker 2>the only answer I had for him really was I

0:41:25.080 --> 0:41:27.719
<v Speaker 2>didn't realize there was like a deadline I had met

0:41:27.960 --> 0:41:30.640
<v Speaker 2>and it was touched my shelf life was over whatever.

0:41:31.040 --> 0:41:35.520
<v Speaker 2>I I intend to keep doing this as long as

0:41:35.560 --> 0:41:38.560
<v Speaker 2>I have something to say. Art is not, you know,

0:41:39.480 --> 0:41:43.759
<v Speaker 2>being a songwriter, being an artist in this world that

0:41:43.800 --> 0:41:48.680
<v Speaker 2>we inhabit, it's not you know. I don't want to

0:41:48.680 --> 0:41:50.719
<v Speaker 2>get all pompous about it. But it's not a nine

0:41:50.719 --> 0:41:54.520
<v Speaker 2>to five job that I'm going to eventually, you know,

0:41:55.120 --> 0:41:57.959
<v Speaker 2>collect retirement for It's just it's a calling. It's something

0:41:58.000 --> 0:42:00.959
<v Speaker 2>I feel like I need to do, and I've always

0:42:01.040 --> 0:42:03.880
<v Speaker 2>felt that way about it, whether I had an audience

0:42:03.960 --> 0:42:08.279
<v Speaker 2>or not. I'm deeply grateful and fortunate that I did

0:42:09.040 --> 0:42:12.600
<v Speaker 2>find an audience and that I still have one. But

0:42:13.960 --> 0:42:17.560
<v Speaker 2>it's like again, and that to me, is part of

0:42:17.600 --> 0:42:20.839
<v Speaker 2>that sort of agism that exists, and it's not as

0:42:21.200 --> 0:42:24.399
<v Speaker 2>you know, to me thinking about it. The gentleman who

0:42:24.440 --> 0:42:28.279
<v Speaker 2>asked me that question, he's a much younger person and

0:42:28.640 --> 0:42:31.840
<v Speaker 2>than I am, and you know, he's just come up

0:42:31.880 --> 0:42:34.240
<v Speaker 2>in a different world, and I don't know. I'm still

0:42:34.280 --> 0:42:37.080
<v Speaker 2>sort of kind of shaking my head about it.

0:42:39.400 --> 0:42:42.360
<v Speaker 1>Okay. You know, I don't want to defend any music

0:42:42.440 --> 0:42:47.920
<v Speaker 1>journalists for numerous reasons. However, just to state facts, there

0:42:47.960 --> 0:42:50.600
<v Speaker 1>are a lot of acts from the so called classic

0:42:50.760 --> 0:42:55.640
<v Speaker 1>rock era who was refused to make new music because

0:42:55.680 --> 0:42:58.319
<v Speaker 1>they believe no one's going to hear it. Now. Obviously

0:42:58.960 --> 0:43:02.480
<v Speaker 1>we can go deeper and analyze who they are, what

0:43:02.560 --> 0:43:07.240
<v Speaker 1>their motivations, artistic whatever, But I'm leading into The next

0:43:07.360 --> 0:43:11.680
<v Speaker 1>question is when they do put out music, there's the

0:43:11.840 --> 0:43:14.840
<v Speaker 1>issue of how much new music they can play in

0:43:14.880 --> 0:43:17.840
<v Speaker 1>a show. Is that something you think about.

0:43:18.560 --> 0:43:24.040
<v Speaker 2>It's something I feel when I put a set list together,

0:43:24.360 --> 0:43:30.719
<v Speaker 2>when it's time to tour a new record whatever, I'm

0:43:30.880 --> 0:43:36.279
<v Speaker 2>very I try to be very thoughtful about how much

0:43:36.320 --> 0:43:42.600
<v Speaker 2>new music I inject into the set list. Where to

0:43:42.640 --> 0:43:45.920
<v Speaker 2>find the balance, I mean, you know, and again it

0:43:45.960 --> 0:43:48.560
<v Speaker 2>also depends on how long has the record been out,

0:43:48.600 --> 0:43:52.120
<v Speaker 2>how have people even had a chance to digest it,

0:43:52.280 --> 0:43:58.560
<v Speaker 2>you know. I think that's that's important as well. So yeah,

0:43:58.600 --> 0:44:00.600
<v Speaker 2>I just feel like I'm really thoughtful about it. I

0:44:00.600 --> 0:44:04.880
<v Speaker 2>don't have any desire to play the record front to

0:44:04.960 --> 0:44:08.640
<v Speaker 2>back in a set. If anything, I want to be

0:44:08.719 --> 0:44:13.040
<v Speaker 2>able to just show that there are connecting threads between

0:44:13.200 --> 0:44:17.200
<v Speaker 2>this new music and what you're familiar with prior. You know,

0:44:17.239 --> 0:44:22.880
<v Speaker 2>it's like it's all coming from me, and it's you know,

0:44:22.920 --> 0:44:27.520
<v Speaker 2>it's just very it's just very clear to me that

0:44:27.600 --> 0:44:30.080
<v Speaker 2>it's all part of the whole thing.

0:44:31.719 --> 0:44:35.719
<v Speaker 1>Well, I guess let's assume you're doing a show by yourself.

0:44:35.880 --> 0:44:38.560
<v Speaker 1>You may have side musicians, but you're not working with

0:44:39.360 --> 0:44:43.640
<v Speaker 1>the numerous people you do work with to what degree

0:44:43.760 --> 0:44:47.279
<v Speaker 1>every night is different. It's just like legitimate theater. They

0:44:47.280 --> 0:44:50.839
<v Speaker 1>do the same lines, but every night is different. To

0:44:50.960 --> 0:44:54.880
<v Speaker 1>what degree are you conscious of the audience in trying

0:44:54.920 --> 0:44:59.920
<v Speaker 1>to win them over to your side? You know?

0:45:00.280 --> 0:45:04.239
<v Speaker 2>I think when I was a much younger artist, I

0:45:04.400 --> 0:45:08.839
<v Speaker 2>may have felt that way upon walking on stage, like

0:45:08.880 --> 0:45:12.040
<v Speaker 2>I'm on a mission here, I want to win these

0:45:12.080 --> 0:45:18.480
<v Speaker 2>people over. I feel like after all these years since then,

0:45:18.560 --> 0:45:24.000
<v Speaker 2>now maybe I'm wrong to make this assumption, but I

0:45:24.040 --> 0:45:27.080
<v Speaker 2>feel like it's much less about that and more just

0:45:27.840 --> 0:45:34.400
<v Speaker 2>this appreciation and recognition of it's a community inside this space.

0:45:34.640 --> 0:45:38.879
<v Speaker 2>We're all together here. People are here because they want

0:45:38.880 --> 0:45:42.600
<v Speaker 2>to be as opposed to having their arms crossed sort

0:45:42.640 --> 0:45:46.839
<v Speaker 2>of indicating show me. It's like they know what they're

0:45:46.840 --> 0:45:50.080
<v Speaker 2>here for. Because I've been around long enough, I guess

0:45:50.239 --> 0:45:53.080
<v Speaker 2>you know that it's not a mystery to them. They're

0:45:53.080 --> 0:45:56.359
<v Speaker 2>not being introduced to someone new. So I think it's

0:45:56.400 --> 0:45:59.280
<v Speaker 2>a you know, kind of a logical thing to feel

0:45:59.280 --> 0:46:03.560
<v Speaker 2>like I want to I want to be here with

0:46:03.760 --> 0:46:05.920
<v Speaker 2>everyone here in this audience, and I want us all

0:46:05.960 --> 0:46:10.000
<v Speaker 2>to feel connected. That's that's to me what I feel.

0:46:11.920 --> 0:46:17.440
<v Speaker 2>What I I'm deeply grateful for every every time I

0:46:17.440 --> 0:46:18.280
<v Speaker 2>step on stage.

0:46:20.000 --> 0:46:23.680
<v Speaker 1>Let's go back to the agism. There's absolutely agism in

0:46:23.719 --> 0:46:26.360
<v Speaker 1>the music business, and we could talk about that a lot,

0:46:26.680 --> 0:46:31.080
<v Speaker 1>but to what deg we You experience agism in your

0:46:31.239 --> 0:46:33.520
<v Speaker 1>non music business life.

0:46:35.440 --> 0:46:39.719
<v Speaker 2>When people talk to you in such a way that

0:46:39.760 --> 0:46:52.000
<v Speaker 2>they think you're hard of hearing, right, or they call

0:46:52.080 --> 0:47:00.040
<v Speaker 2>you honey, maybe honey like they're talking to their nana,

0:47:00.080 --> 0:47:11.799
<v Speaker 2>you know. Yeah, just things like that. You know, It's

0:47:11.880 --> 0:47:17.960
<v Speaker 2>just you just detect things, you know, and sometimes it's

0:47:17.960 --> 0:47:21.440
<v Speaker 2>like and I'll just sometimes walk away going what the fuck.

0:47:22.960 --> 0:47:25.120
<v Speaker 1>Right? It's like, what right? Right? Right?

0:47:25.160 --> 0:47:28.000
<v Speaker 2>What the fuck? What do I look? Do I look

0:47:28.120 --> 0:47:32.040
<v Speaker 2>like I'm eighty five years old or something. I know

0:47:32.120 --> 0:47:35.360
<v Speaker 2>a lot of eighty five year old women and they're

0:47:35.960 --> 0:47:37.160
<v Speaker 2>rock stars.

0:47:36.719 --> 0:47:36.960
<v Speaker 1>You know.

0:47:38.719 --> 0:47:44.600
<v Speaker 2>But again, I like to with the exception of some people,

0:47:44.640 --> 0:47:47.239
<v Speaker 2>I like to believe the best about people, and I

0:47:47.320 --> 0:47:50.320
<v Speaker 2>think that when I do get the sort of Nana treatment,

0:47:51.120 --> 0:47:54.440
<v Speaker 2>it's just people are just wanting to be helpful and

0:47:54.480 --> 0:47:59.360
<v Speaker 2>compassionate and and they're trying to be thoughtful. So you know,

0:48:00.000 --> 0:48:01.640
<v Speaker 2>I'm not going to punch anybody out.

0:48:02.800 --> 0:48:06.680
<v Speaker 1>Well, that's an interesting thought. I remember I was in

0:48:06.719 --> 0:48:09.640
<v Speaker 1>the mountains and I didn't take a bus, you had

0:48:09.640 --> 0:48:11.520
<v Speaker 1>to buy it. I was talking to the guy and

0:48:11.600 --> 0:48:14.439
<v Speaker 1>I'm trying to figure out which bus and where it's going.

0:48:15.080 --> 0:48:17.239
<v Speaker 1>Figure goes, Okay, the senior.

0:48:16.960 --> 0:48:18.000
<v Speaker 2>Rate is Jesus.

0:48:18.080 --> 0:48:20.799
<v Speaker 1>It's like, you know, it's like, oh yeah, all I

0:48:20.840 --> 0:48:25.200
<v Speaker 1>did was ask you these questions. But as a woman

0:48:25.280 --> 0:48:30.400
<v Speaker 1>in society, we hear all of this attention based on looks.

0:48:30.440 --> 0:48:33.600
<v Speaker 1>What has your experience been with ageism as.

0:48:33.480 --> 0:48:37.440
<v Speaker 2>A woman in the music business and in life?

0:48:37.680 --> 0:48:41.120
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well mostly in life in life music business.

0:48:42.000 --> 0:48:47.759
<v Speaker 2>Well, for example, my neighbor, one of my neighbors, years ago,

0:48:47.800 --> 0:48:53.799
<v Speaker 2>we were taking a walk. She this beautiful artist, and

0:48:53.880 --> 0:49:02.719
<v Speaker 2>she had beautiful, thick colored gray hair, just like the

0:49:02.719 --> 0:49:06.240
<v Speaker 2>most beautiful gray hair you've ever seen in your life,

0:49:06.280 --> 0:49:10.439
<v Speaker 2>Like I would kill for that hair. And her name

0:49:10.480 --> 0:49:13.600
<v Speaker 2>was Elsa, and she one day we're just talking about

0:49:13.640 --> 0:49:17.600
<v Speaker 2>and I must we're talking about agism. We encounter et cetera.

0:49:18.360 --> 0:49:21.759
<v Speaker 2>And she pointed to her hair and she said, the

0:49:21.840 --> 0:49:25.640
<v Speaker 2>minute my hair became this, I became invisible in life.

0:49:26.800 --> 0:49:30.360
<v Speaker 2>And it broke my heart. And that she said that.

0:49:30.400 --> 0:49:33.840
<v Speaker 2>I mean, she's just the coolest lady. She's so she's

0:49:34.000 --> 0:49:41.879
<v Speaker 2>a total super nova. And again it just I actually would.

0:49:42.160 --> 0:49:44.080
<v Speaker 2>During the summer when I was on tour, I was

0:49:44.400 --> 0:49:47.359
<v Speaker 2>sort of riffing about this when I was introducing girl

0:49:47.400 --> 0:49:51.600
<v Speaker 2>and her dog and talking about how I know so

0:49:51.719 --> 0:49:56.000
<v Speaker 2>many women who older women who have said to me

0:49:56.920 --> 0:49:59.839
<v Speaker 2>at so many different times. You know, I turned six

0:50:00.200 --> 0:50:02.839
<v Speaker 2>and I became invisible, and I'm like, what the fuck

0:50:02.920 --> 0:50:05.640
<v Speaker 2>does that mean? It's like, what are you talking about?

0:50:06.360 --> 0:50:12.120
<v Speaker 2>And then slowly but surely it started to happen to

0:50:12.160 --> 0:50:15.759
<v Speaker 2>me in those ways, and I got it, I understood,

0:50:16.840 --> 0:50:21.759
<v Speaker 2>and it was both dreadful and hilarious.

0:50:22.239 --> 0:50:22.480
<v Speaker 1>You know.

0:50:22.920 --> 0:50:27.879
<v Speaker 2>It's like you just you sort of realize, well, I've

0:50:27.920 --> 0:50:31.680
<v Speaker 2>reached that place where the people have been telling me

0:50:31.719 --> 0:50:34.239
<v Speaker 2>about all this time and I didn't believe it, but

0:50:34.360 --> 0:50:38.719
<v Speaker 2>here I am, you know, And you know, I just

0:50:38.719 --> 0:50:40.840
<v Speaker 2>don't want to be I don't want to be cranky

0:50:40.880 --> 0:50:43.160
<v Speaker 2>about it all the time and say and not talk

0:50:43.200 --> 0:50:47.280
<v Speaker 2>about anything else. But it really does inform so much

0:50:48.760 --> 0:50:52.000
<v Speaker 2>in life and in art, you know, and this record

0:50:52.280 --> 0:50:53.520
<v Speaker 2>certainly testifies to that.

0:50:55.440 --> 0:51:01.080
<v Speaker 1>Okay, would you ever contemplate any because medic procedures.

0:51:05.480 --> 0:51:06.960
<v Speaker 2>No, And I'll tell you why.

0:51:07.160 --> 0:51:09.040
<v Speaker 1>I knew that was a bad ask. No.

0:51:09.920 --> 0:51:16.080
<v Speaker 2>So when we were talking about impending death and illnesses

0:51:16.120 --> 0:51:19.319
<v Speaker 2>and things like that. I didn't mention, but years ago

0:51:19.520 --> 0:51:25.240
<v Speaker 2>I suffered a pulmonary embolism and I came very close

0:51:25.320 --> 0:51:29.319
<v Speaker 2>to not being here, and it was a very traumatic experience.

0:51:30.880 --> 0:51:34.359
<v Speaker 2>And once you have a blood clot, you can be

0:51:35.400 --> 0:51:40.719
<v Speaker 2>you're at risk further risk for getting another one. And

0:51:40.800 --> 0:51:45.040
<v Speaker 2>my feeling about elective procedures is I don't want to

0:51:45.080 --> 0:51:48.759
<v Speaker 2>do anything that would put me in at risk for

0:51:48.800 --> 0:51:51.759
<v Speaker 2>having another blood cloth. So there you go.

0:51:52.760 --> 0:51:55.040
<v Speaker 1>How did you realize that you had a blood clock?

0:51:55.120 --> 0:51:57.720
<v Speaker 2>I couldn't breathe a little bit slower?

0:51:58.120 --> 0:52:00.920
<v Speaker 1>Was it one event or in retrospect, had it been building?

0:52:00.960 --> 0:52:02.640
<v Speaker 1>And where was it when you have it.

0:52:02.640 --> 0:52:06.160
<v Speaker 2>Had been building? I'll tell you exactly what happened. I

0:52:06.200 --> 0:52:08.279
<v Speaker 2>had been on Well, actually I don't know if I

0:52:08.360 --> 0:52:09.720
<v Speaker 2>want to tell you exactly what happened.

0:52:10.160 --> 0:52:13.759
<v Speaker 1>Uh. Well, now I'm more interested in why you don't

0:52:13.800 --> 0:52:14.400
<v Speaker 1>want to tell me.

0:52:14.600 --> 0:52:17.919
<v Speaker 2>I don't have to tell me because it's like I'm

0:52:17.960 --> 0:52:20.080
<v Speaker 2>just kind of opening my health file to you, and

0:52:20.120 --> 0:52:21.640
<v Speaker 2>I don't know if I want to do that to

0:52:21.719 --> 0:52:23.200
<v Speaker 2>the wider world.

0:52:23.600 --> 0:52:25.440
<v Speaker 1>Well, you know, let just to stop. I mean, you know,

0:52:25.800 --> 0:52:29.640
<v Speaker 1>I talk about health issues all the time do it. Yes,

0:52:30.120 --> 0:52:34.200
<v Speaker 1>maybe I've had more than the average person. Everywhere I

0:52:34.239 --> 0:52:37.200
<v Speaker 1>go now people ask me about they health. I have found.

0:52:38.080 --> 0:52:40.120
<v Speaker 1>The only difference is the other people don't talk about it.

0:52:40.960 --> 0:52:43.759
<v Speaker 1>Everybody's got something that's right. And it's like, I have

0:52:43.840 --> 0:52:47.480
<v Speaker 1>this macular degeneration, now whatever, and her all of a

0:52:47.480 --> 0:52:50.200
<v Speaker 1>sudden he reveals, Oh, this is much worse. He just

0:52:50.239 --> 0:52:53.759
<v Speaker 1>never told you. Okay, I find a ton of that shit.

0:52:53.880 --> 0:52:55.960
<v Speaker 1>I'm not listen. You don't have to tell me. Yeah,

0:52:56.239 --> 0:53:00.239
<v Speaker 1>but that if people were only more on it, it's

0:53:00.280 --> 0:53:02.600
<v Speaker 1>part of that image we're talking about where you can't

0:53:02.640 --> 0:53:06.440
<v Speaker 1>embrace aging. You know, it's like I was under the

0:53:06.480 --> 0:53:10.560
<v Speaker 1>illusic something stupid. Maybe my parents were. You know, you're

0:53:10.560 --> 0:53:13.600
<v Speaker 1>one hundred percent together and you die. That is not

0:53:13.800 --> 0:53:17.120
<v Speaker 1>the way it lays out, that's right. Unless you die

0:53:17.120 --> 0:53:21.360
<v Speaker 1>before your time, there's a deterioration and emotionally very difficult.

0:53:21.560 --> 0:53:27.600
<v Speaker 2>Yes, yes, I am in that movie right now, and

0:53:27.840 --> 0:53:30.200
<v Speaker 2>I understand what you're saying, and I agree with you.

0:53:30.440 --> 0:53:37.000
<v Speaker 2>And it's really hard, it's really really hard, Okay, just

0:53:37.040 --> 0:53:40.680
<v Speaker 2>to satisfy your curiosity. I had so I had this

0:53:40.760 --> 0:53:43.480
<v Speaker 2>blood clot and the reason I got it, we believe

0:53:44.200 --> 0:53:48.879
<v Speaker 2>is because I have always suffered from migrain headaches and

0:53:49.560 --> 0:53:54.080
<v Speaker 2>I was taking this medication that actually it was a

0:53:54.160 --> 0:54:00.560
<v Speaker 2>birth control pills that would What I understand about it

0:54:00.600 --> 0:54:05.080
<v Speaker 2>was that it was, uh it would I wouldn't get

0:54:05.120 --> 0:54:08.640
<v Speaker 2>so much estrogen that would create the headaches. But the

0:54:08.680 --> 0:54:13.280
<v Speaker 2>birth control pills they now have a black box warning

0:54:13.280 --> 0:54:15.359
<v Speaker 2>on them, but at the time that I was taking them,

0:54:15.400 --> 0:54:19.160
<v Speaker 2>they did not. But they were the cause of this

0:54:20.400 --> 0:54:26.880
<v Speaker 2>blood clot and yeah, it was pretty terrifying. It was horrible.

0:54:26.920 --> 0:54:31.120
<v Speaker 1>Actually, so you have the surgery, they you know, put

0:54:31.120 --> 0:54:34.600
<v Speaker 1>a clip usually whatever, blah blah blah. Have you had

0:54:34.640 --> 0:54:39.880
<v Speaker 1>any after effects of that problem in resulting surgery?

0:54:40.360 --> 0:54:46.520
<v Speaker 2>I mentally it was like I was afraid too, so

0:54:46.560 --> 0:54:51.279
<v Speaker 2>that you know, you're put on blood centers for a

0:54:51.320 --> 0:54:53.920
<v Speaker 2>period of time and then you weaned off of that.

0:54:54.600 --> 0:54:59.279
<v Speaker 2>I remember marching into my doctor's office nearly nearly two

0:54:59.400 --> 0:55:02.279
<v Speaker 2>years after the event saying and he said, I think

0:55:02.280 --> 0:55:04.560
<v Speaker 2>it's time for us to start tapering off the blood

0:55:04.560 --> 0:55:07.719
<v Speaker 2>thinners and everything. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no,

0:55:09.239 --> 0:55:10.480
<v Speaker 2>don't ask me to get on a plane.

0:55:10.480 --> 0:55:10.840
<v Speaker 1>I can't.

0:55:10.880 --> 0:55:12.520
<v Speaker 2>I can't, I can't, I can't. You know, just like

0:55:12.880 --> 0:55:19.279
<v Speaker 2>all these sort of things that were terrifying to me,

0:55:19.960 --> 0:55:21.920
<v Speaker 2>like that they if I got on a plane and

0:55:22.120 --> 0:55:24.919
<v Speaker 2>if I didn't move around enough, then I'd get another

0:55:24.920 --> 0:55:27.200
<v Speaker 2>blood clot. If I got off the blood thinners, I'm

0:55:27.200 --> 0:55:28.880
<v Speaker 2>going to get another blood clot, you know, just like

0:55:29.840 --> 0:55:35.160
<v Speaker 2>you know my doctor. He was amazing and so kind

0:55:35.239 --> 0:55:41.359
<v Speaker 2>and compassionate and helpful. But fear is fear, and it's

0:55:41.400 --> 0:55:44.440
<v Speaker 2>really hard to deal with. But I eventually got through it.

0:55:45.400 --> 0:55:48.560
<v Speaker 1>Well. When people have these issues, frequently they go to

0:55:48.600 --> 0:55:50.680
<v Speaker 1>a therapist. Have you been to a therapist?

0:55:52.280 --> 0:55:58.360
<v Speaker 2>Have I been to a therapist? My middle name is therapy, no,

0:55:59.200 --> 0:56:05.279
<v Speaker 2>my paid friend. Yes, I've been to a number of

0:56:05.320 --> 0:56:10.200
<v Speaker 2>therapists over the years, and they're all incredibly patient.

0:56:11.680 --> 0:56:13.040
<v Speaker 1>Have you found it helpful?

0:56:14.080 --> 0:56:20.080
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely? Absolutely. I remember one of one thing that one

0:56:20.080 --> 0:56:23.879
<v Speaker 2>of my therapists said when I was electing to as,

0:56:23.920 --> 0:56:27.800
<v Speaker 2>I said, fly solo for a while, and he said,

0:56:28.320 --> 0:56:31.319
<v Speaker 2>you know, just give me a call when you're ready

0:56:31.320 --> 0:56:33.160
<v Speaker 2>to come back, if you're ever ready to come back,

0:56:33.400 --> 0:56:35.480
<v Speaker 2>And I said, well, I hope I don't have to,

0:56:36.120 --> 0:56:39.480
<v Speaker 2>and he was like, you know what. I have a

0:56:39.560 --> 0:56:43.319
<v Speaker 2>number of patients who have said to me that they

0:56:43.400 --> 0:56:47.440
<v Speaker 2>consider it a privilege to be able to sit and

0:56:47.480 --> 0:56:51.040
<v Speaker 2>talk with someone when they need to. It's not a

0:56:51.120 --> 0:56:55.480
<v Speaker 2>beginning and an end. It's an ongoing journey through life.

0:56:55.920 --> 0:57:00.879
<v Speaker 2>And I thought that was wonderful and it changed how

0:57:00.920 --> 0:57:05.160
<v Speaker 2>I thought about the whole process. And yeah, so I

0:57:05.880 --> 0:57:08.920
<v Speaker 2>consider myself so fortunate that I can afford it, and

0:57:08.960 --> 0:57:12.040
<v Speaker 2>that I can do it, and that I have such great,

0:57:12.400 --> 0:57:15.600
<v Speaker 2>great people to be my paid friends.

0:57:16.560 --> 0:57:19.200
<v Speaker 1>Paid friends got a derogatory tone, though.

0:57:19.760 --> 0:57:22.440
<v Speaker 2>No, I mean it with affection and humor.

0:57:23.400 --> 0:57:29.000
<v Speaker 1>Okay, you mentioned birth control pills. You don't have children.

0:57:29.680 --> 0:57:33.520
<v Speaker 1>Was that a choice? Do you have any regret? Is

0:57:33.560 --> 0:57:35.040
<v Speaker 1>this exactly what you wanted.

0:57:36.960 --> 0:57:40.400
<v Speaker 2>By the time I got married for the first and

0:57:40.520 --> 0:57:44.520
<v Speaker 2>only time, I was little, I had aged out of

0:57:44.520 --> 0:57:49.520
<v Speaker 2>that particular situation. So it was basically I would have

0:57:49.680 --> 0:57:53.080
<v Speaker 2>loved to have had a family, had kids, but I

0:57:53.160 --> 0:57:57.000
<v Speaker 2>was I just you know, I just never was in

0:57:57.040 --> 0:57:59.480
<v Speaker 2>a place in my life where I could make sense

0:57:59.480 --> 0:58:04.000
<v Speaker 2>of how to do it by myself. So yeah, it

0:58:04.120 --> 0:58:06.280
<v Speaker 2>just didn't happen. It just wasn't in the cards for me.

0:58:06.360 --> 0:58:07.840
<v Speaker 2>I would have loved it if it had beened.

0:58:08.560 --> 0:58:12.000
<v Speaker 1>Well, there's a reference to put a benignly to an

0:58:12.240 --> 0:58:15.919
<v Speaker 1>X in one of the songs and essentially saying they're

0:58:15.960 --> 0:58:20.560
<v Speaker 1>not trustworthy A was that your personal experience?

0:58:21.480 --> 0:58:24.720
<v Speaker 2>I need to know what the song is, but I

0:58:24.760 --> 0:58:26.040
<v Speaker 2>need to know what the song is.

0:58:26.240 --> 0:58:28.680
<v Speaker 1>I'd have to go through all the lyrics. There's a

0:58:28.720 --> 0:58:32.760
<v Speaker 1>guy there I could do it. And it was essentially.

0:58:35.160 --> 0:58:39.640
<v Speaker 2>I mean, there's one song called Bitter Ender, which is

0:58:39.840 --> 0:58:43.160
<v Speaker 2>really just it's a portrait of me being one of

0:58:43.200 --> 0:58:47.120
<v Speaker 2>those people. It's like, oh my god, why am I

0:58:47.240 --> 0:58:51.640
<v Speaker 2>still hanging around here? The writing is on the wall.

0:58:51.680 --> 0:58:53.800
<v Speaker 2>I need to leave this relationship or I need to

0:58:54.040 --> 0:58:58.600
<v Speaker 2>end this or whatever, and I'm just always hanging on

0:58:58.680 --> 0:59:01.520
<v Speaker 2>for dear life, like thinking, oh, it's going to fix itself,

0:59:01.560 --> 0:59:03.440
<v Speaker 2>it's going to be better, it's going to be okay.

0:59:04.160 --> 0:59:06.840
<v Speaker 2>And so that's the whole song. So I don't know.

0:59:06.920 --> 0:59:12.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but that's a different perspective. There's another one. Truth

0:59:12.480 --> 0:59:16.080
<v Speaker 1>is I've always gone down with the ship. But that

0:59:16.240 --> 0:59:21.040
<v Speaker 1>is different from the behavior of the person. The signs

0:59:21.080 --> 0:59:25.360
<v Speaker 1>you're willing to miss when you're cut to the quick.

0:59:26.680 --> 0:59:33.840
<v Speaker 1>Let me let me you were married once, right, you

0:59:33.920 --> 0:59:36.720
<v Speaker 1>say you live alone in the middle of nowhere and

0:59:36.800 --> 0:59:41.840
<v Speaker 1>you were somewhat of a harmit. Yeah, so However, contrasting

0:59:41.960 --> 0:59:43.840
<v Speaker 1>that you have this very public life and you do

0:59:43.960 --> 0:59:47.600
<v Speaker 1>travel a certain amount. So what about romance at this

0:59:47.640 --> 0:59:50.240
<v Speaker 1>point in your life.

0:59:55.160 --> 0:59:58.640
<v Speaker 2>I'm open to it if it were to happen, but

0:59:58.680 --> 1:00:02.280
<v Speaker 2>I'm also really con I'm really comfortable and content with

1:00:03.080 --> 1:00:09.560
<v Speaker 2>the life that I have created for myself. You know,

1:00:09.720 --> 1:00:12.440
<v Speaker 2>I just, first of all, I don't feel like I

1:00:12.520 --> 1:00:15.240
<v Speaker 2>ever need to get married again. I didn't really want

1:00:15.280 --> 1:00:17.160
<v Speaker 2>to get married in the first place. But the person

1:00:17.160 --> 1:00:20.160
<v Speaker 2>that I ended up getting married to just for a

1:00:20.160 --> 1:00:23.880
<v Speaker 2>lot of different reasons, he wanted it to be legal whatever.

1:00:24.040 --> 1:00:29.479
<v Speaker 2>But I don't. I don't feel that way now for sure. Yeah,

1:00:29.520 --> 1:00:33.560
<v Speaker 2>I just I'm I'm I'm sound like something out of

1:00:33.600 --> 1:00:35.920
<v Speaker 2>a Jane Austen novel. But I'm quite content.

1:00:36.640 --> 1:00:48.880
<v Speaker 1>You know, let's look at a different way. You were married. Yeah,

1:00:48.920 --> 1:00:51.320
<v Speaker 1>but you also say you're a hermit, and this has

1:00:51.320 --> 1:00:53.520
<v Speaker 1>been something your whole life. You know, there are people

1:00:53.520 --> 1:00:57.880
<v Speaker 1>who are serial monogamous. They're always in a relationship. There's

1:00:57.920 --> 1:01:00.720
<v Speaker 1>somebody in a book right now that I'm reading didn't

1:01:00.720 --> 1:01:03.000
<v Speaker 1>have a relationship till she was twenty four, and that

1:01:03.080 --> 1:01:06.720
<v Speaker 1>was the only relationship you ever had. We're on the continuum.

1:01:06.800 --> 1:01:07.520
<v Speaker 1>Do you lie.

1:01:11.440 --> 1:01:19.240
<v Speaker 2>Gosh, you know, I just I feel like I just

1:01:19.360 --> 1:01:23.640
<v Speaker 2>never met the right person. You know, I dated lots

1:01:23.640 --> 1:01:27.360
<v Speaker 2>of different people and just not throwing shade at them,

1:01:27.600 --> 1:01:31.400
<v Speaker 2>but it's just I was. It's like I remember talking

1:01:31.440 --> 1:01:33.959
<v Speaker 2>to my therapist saying, I don't think I have relationship

1:01:34.120 --> 1:01:38.600
<v Speaker 2>DNA in me. I just didn't think I you know,

1:01:38.680 --> 1:01:47.720
<v Speaker 2>I just I don't know. And it's just like now

1:01:47.960 --> 1:01:51.120
<v Speaker 2>when I think of what I might have to do

1:01:51.160 --> 1:01:56.360
<v Speaker 2>to accommodate like a relationship, like I think I have

1:01:56.520 --> 1:01:59.760
<v Speaker 2>always said actually and I mean it. I say it humorously,

1:01:59.800 --> 1:02:02.480
<v Speaker 2>but you know, there are no jokes, doctor Freud. The

1:02:03.880 --> 1:02:06.840
<v Speaker 2>idea that, to me, the perfect relationship at this point

1:02:06.840 --> 1:02:10.520
<v Speaker 2>in my life would be somebody who lives like down

1:02:10.520 --> 1:02:12.920
<v Speaker 2>the road, you know, and we can meet up when

1:02:12.920 --> 1:02:15.040
<v Speaker 2>we want to. But it's like I want my own space,

1:02:15.080 --> 1:02:19.000
<v Speaker 2>I want my own home, I want my place, and

1:02:19.160 --> 1:02:20.120
<v Speaker 2>I don't want to share it.

1:02:20.600 --> 1:02:22.280
<v Speaker 1>But there are a lot of people who actually live that,

1:02:22.560 --> 1:02:27.400
<v Speaker 1>some even married. I think it's fabulous, But I if

1:02:27.440 --> 1:02:31.040
<v Speaker 1>you had met the perfect person, what would they have

1:02:31.120 --> 1:02:31.560
<v Speaker 1>looked like?

1:02:33.560 --> 1:02:33.920
<v Speaker 2>Really?

1:02:35.400 --> 1:02:35.680
<v Speaker 1>Hmm?

1:02:44.120 --> 1:02:45.200
<v Speaker 2>I think they'd be tall.

1:02:46.520 --> 1:02:48.560
<v Speaker 1>Well, I wasn't talking physically.

1:02:48.080 --> 1:02:51.600
<v Speaker 2>But okay, Okay, what were you talking about.

1:02:51.960 --> 1:02:54.760
<v Speaker 1>Well, when you're talking about you've never met somebody, I

1:02:54.800 --> 1:02:59.000
<v Speaker 1>think of the clique as opposed to what this spark, right.

1:02:58.800 --> 1:03:04.960
<v Speaker 2>The spark. Yeah, yeah, they'd have to be really funny.

1:03:05.120 --> 1:03:10.840
<v Speaker 2>That's a huge spark. It's just like humor. That's the greatest.

1:03:11.000 --> 1:03:13.120
<v Speaker 2>That's the most seductive thing in the world. Is someone

1:03:13.120 --> 1:03:18.280
<v Speaker 2>who makes you laugh, like genuine belly aching laugh. You know,

1:03:18.520 --> 1:03:21.360
<v Speaker 2>there's nothing more seductive to me about it than that

1:03:22.400 --> 1:03:32.200
<v Speaker 2>someone who's thoughtful and curious, is interested in in what

1:03:32.280 --> 1:03:37.840
<v Speaker 2>you do, but not obsequious about it, you know, not

1:03:38.920 --> 1:03:45.160
<v Speaker 2>like they're They would be proud of you and what

1:03:45.200 --> 1:03:49.920
<v Speaker 2>you've accomplished in your life, but they're not interested in

1:03:50.040 --> 1:03:51.480
<v Speaker 2>piggybacking on top of it.

1:03:51.640 --> 1:03:51.840
<v Speaker 1>You know.

1:03:51.880 --> 1:03:54.360
<v Speaker 2>They're just they have their own life and their own

1:03:54.360 --> 1:04:01.240
<v Speaker 2>interests and their own passions. They like to read, they

1:04:01.480 --> 1:04:05.840
<v Speaker 2>like to listen to choral music as much as I do.

1:04:06.480 --> 1:04:09.760
<v Speaker 1>Wow, how'd you get into choral music? Oh?

1:04:09.800 --> 1:04:14.840
<v Speaker 2>My god, I don't know. My mom, I guess she

1:04:14.840 --> 1:04:18.520
<v Speaker 2>would blast. It's not choral music, but she would blast

1:04:18.960 --> 1:04:22.040
<v Speaker 2>Texico Opera Theater on Saturday afternoons out of the met

1:04:23.120 --> 1:04:27.600
<v Speaker 2>every Saturday at two o'clock blasting in the house. But

1:04:27.720 --> 1:04:32.360
<v Speaker 2>she also just you know, I don't know, I just

1:04:34.560 --> 1:04:38.160
<v Speaker 2>always loved, like the last year that she was alive,

1:04:39.680 --> 1:04:47.920
<v Speaker 2>myself and my pals Don Dixon and Marty Jones, and

1:04:48.040 --> 1:04:54.080
<v Speaker 2>we went over to Cambridge in the UK and stood

1:04:54.120 --> 1:04:58.880
<v Speaker 2>in line for nine hours to get tickets for the

1:04:58.960 --> 1:05:05.280
<v Speaker 2>Christmas Eve served at King's College, Cambridge, where you will

1:05:05.280 --> 1:05:07.760
<v Speaker 2>hear the most beautiful choral music you've ever heard in

1:05:07.760 --> 1:05:13.919
<v Speaker 2>your life, and we did that because it's Nirvana and

1:05:14.320 --> 1:05:17.200
<v Speaker 2>my mom it was her last year that she was

1:05:17.280 --> 1:05:20.040
<v Speaker 2>like and it's like, you're not supposed to use your

1:05:20.040 --> 1:05:24.120
<v Speaker 2>phone in the chapel, but I was like taking pictures

1:05:24.120 --> 1:05:26.960
<v Speaker 2>of the stained glass windows and sending them, texting them

1:05:26.960 --> 1:05:29.160
<v Speaker 2>to my mom in real time. So she was like

1:05:29.320 --> 1:05:35.320
<v Speaker 2>there with me, and we had the program so she

1:05:35.400 --> 1:05:37.880
<v Speaker 2>knew the songs which were coming. And then when the

1:05:37.920 --> 1:05:40.640
<v Speaker 2>service was over, raced back to the hotel, called Mom

1:05:40.680 --> 1:05:43.040
<v Speaker 2>on the phone and we went through the whole thing together,

1:05:43.800 --> 1:05:48.080
<v Speaker 2>the whole service, and it was the best time of

1:05:48.080 --> 1:05:52.840
<v Speaker 2>my life. And I heard all these great, incredible pieces

1:05:52.880 --> 1:05:56.560
<v Speaker 2>of music, and to this day, choral music is just

1:05:56.680 --> 1:06:00.280
<v Speaker 2>my favorite thing in my life. It's just my favorite thing.

1:06:00.720 --> 1:06:03.240
<v Speaker 2>And I don't know why, but she gave.

1:06:03.000 --> 1:06:05.600
<v Speaker 1>That to me, and would you play it in the house.

1:06:07.320 --> 1:06:10.760
<v Speaker 2>Twenty four to seven? I turned it off so I

1:06:10.800 --> 1:06:12.000
<v Speaker 2>could do this interview with you.

1:06:13.280 --> 1:06:15.919
<v Speaker 1>That's definitive. Let's jump backwards. How'd you end up going

1:06:15.920 --> 1:06:18.360
<v Speaker 1>to Brown? God?

1:06:19.360 --> 1:06:26.280
<v Speaker 2>Truthfully, yeah, it was the closest college that I applied

1:06:26.320 --> 1:06:32.160
<v Speaker 2>to my home in DC with my parents when I

1:06:32.200 --> 1:06:34.320
<v Speaker 2>was in high school, when it was time to apply

1:06:34.400 --> 1:06:37.600
<v Speaker 2>to colleges, I didn't. I was the third out of

1:06:37.640 --> 1:06:40.000
<v Speaker 2>four kids. By the time it was my turn. My

1:06:40.000 --> 1:06:42.760
<v Speaker 2>parents were like, we're not taking you to go look

1:06:42.800 --> 1:06:44.120
<v Speaker 2>at colleges. You figure it.

1:06:44.080 --> 1:06:44.640
<v Speaker 1>Out, you know.

1:06:44.720 --> 1:06:48.240
<v Speaker 2>I was just like, oh God, And I just knew

1:06:48.240 --> 1:06:50.920
<v Speaker 2>that I wanted to be able to go home whenever

1:06:50.960 --> 1:06:54.000
<v Speaker 2>I wanted, as opposed to just on Thanksgiving or spring

1:06:54.040 --> 1:06:57.320
<v Speaker 2>break because from you know, if it was too far away.

1:06:57.960 --> 1:07:04.040
<v Speaker 2>So I applied to all these school in California, school

1:07:04.080 --> 1:07:07.720
<v Speaker 2>in Vermont, school in Colorado, and I School and to Brown,

1:07:08.160 --> 1:07:11.280
<v Speaker 2>and I got into all of them. And Brown was

1:07:11.320 --> 1:07:13.480
<v Speaker 2>the closest one to DC. So that's the one I

1:07:13.480 --> 1:07:13.760
<v Speaker 2>went to.

1:07:14.840 --> 1:07:18.080
<v Speaker 1>Okay, at some point in this narrative, and I can't

1:07:18.080 --> 1:07:21.560
<v Speaker 1>tell you when I believe it's when you're there. Brown

1:07:21.720 --> 1:07:25.960
<v Speaker 1>is known for this very innovative academic program, which when

1:07:26.000 --> 1:07:28.280
<v Speaker 1>I applied to college a few years before you, they

1:07:28.280 --> 1:07:30.440
<v Speaker 1>did not have it. No one applied to Brown, and

1:07:30.480 --> 1:07:33.360
<v Speaker 1>then everybody wanted to go to Brown. Was that part

1:07:33.400 --> 1:07:34.520
<v Speaker 1>of the attraction.

1:07:35.680 --> 1:07:37.720
<v Speaker 2>No, I mean I think they called it sort of

1:07:37.720 --> 1:07:39.840
<v Speaker 2>the open curriculum or something like that like that, I

1:07:39.880 --> 1:07:43.400
<v Speaker 2>don't know, Like, in other words, they didn't require you

1:07:43.480 --> 1:07:48.120
<v Speaker 2>to have, I don't know, a certain amount of credit, can.

1:07:48.080 --> 1:07:49.560
<v Speaker 1>Try to make your own major or something.

1:07:49.640 --> 1:07:52.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, yeah, you could make it up. No, that

1:07:52.600 --> 1:07:54.600
<v Speaker 2>was not the reason, because I don't think I even

1:07:54.680 --> 1:07:59.000
<v Speaker 2>knew what that was the time. Honestly, I didn't know.

1:08:00.160 --> 1:08:04.040
<v Speaker 1>Okay, you went. How was the experience?

1:08:05.600 --> 1:08:09.919
<v Speaker 2>Well, I loved being in classrooms. I got a great

1:08:10.040 --> 1:08:14.280
<v Speaker 2>education I did. I was an American civilization major, which

1:08:14.440 --> 1:08:19.599
<v Speaker 2>at the time was again a very broad palette of things,

1:08:21.320 --> 1:08:24.240
<v Speaker 2>which just allowed me to indulge myself, like you know,

1:08:24.320 --> 1:08:30.040
<v Speaker 2>literature courses and sociology courses and art history and you

1:08:30.080 --> 1:08:30.759
<v Speaker 2>know whatever.

1:08:31.880 --> 1:08:32.080
<v Speaker 1>You know.

1:08:32.240 --> 1:08:38.040
<v Speaker 2>I just I just loved being in the classroom.

1:08:38.080 --> 1:08:41.679
<v Speaker 1>Well, you know, college is inherently social. First, you're living

1:08:41.720 --> 1:08:43.120
<v Speaker 1>in the dorm. I don't know how long you lived

1:08:43.160 --> 1:08:47.599
<v Speaker 1>in the dorm. Were your hermit tendencies and evidence there

1:08:47.800 --> 1:08:48.400
<v Speaker 1>or were they not?

1:08:49.360 --> 1:08:58.400
<v Speaker 2>The I was, you know, I've just always been it's

1:08:58.400 --> 1:09:01.759
<v Speaker 2>hard to make friends, I think, and I've just always

1:09:01.800 --> 1:09:03.720
<v Speaker 2>been that way, and I'm shy, and I didn't like

1:09:03.800 --> 1:09:08.240
<v Speaker 2>to go to parties, and well no, I think I

1:09:08.280 --> 1:09:10.120
<v Speaker 2>did like to go to parties, but I just didn't know.

1:09:10.560 --> 1:09:13.519
<v Speaker 2>I just didn't know a lot of people. So after

1:09:13.880 --> 1:09:15.760
<v Speaker 2>so I was in a dorm just for one year,

1:09:15.920 --> 1:09:19.080
<v Speaker 2>and then after that, let the remaining three years I

1:09:19.120 --> 1:09:23.640
<v Speaker 2>lived in a group house with a rotating cast of friends.

1:09:25.000 --> 1:09:27.760
<v Speaker 1>Was it a rotating cast or was it a rotating

1:09:27.800 --> 1:09:29.360
<v Speaker 1>cast of friends?

1:09:30.120 --> 1:09:36.640
<v Speaker 2>It was a rotating cast and mostly friends. Well, I

1:09:36.680 --> 1:09:38.720
<v Speaker 2>mean there was a few a few strangers that I

1:09:38.760 --> 1:09:39.320
<v Speaker 2>did not know.

1:09:39.600 --> 1:09:41.240
<v Speaker 1>And get what I'm trying to say is you're living

1:09:41.240 --> 1:09:43.519
<v Speaker 1>in a group house. We're all going to college, got

1:09:43.560 --> 1:09:47.519
<v Speaker 1>the common purpose, but everybody's got a different schedule. Yes,

1:09:47.600 --> 1:09:50.479
<v Speaker 1>so are you sitting in the living room bullshitting or

1:09:50.520 --> 1:09:52.640
<v Speaker 1>is everybody hey, nice to see I'm going back to

1:09:52.680 --> 1:09:55.080
<v Speaker 1>my room and studying. I'm going out to class.

1:09:55.720 --> 1:10:01.680
<v Speaker 2>It was both, It was both, and we I think

1:10:01.720 --> 1:10:04.479
<v Speaker 2>we were kind of mature in this way where we

1:10:04.880 --> 1:10:08.679
<v Speaker 2>everybody took a night. It was a big house. Everybody

1:10:08.800 --> 1:10:11.559
<v Speaker 2>would pick a night and would cook for that night.

1:10:11.760 --> 1:10:14.960
<v Speaker 2>So you'd cook for everybody. So you had like one

1:10:15.040 --> 1:10:17.280
<v Speaker 2>night a week where you had to you were responsible

1:10:17.320 --> 1:10:20.000
<v Speaker 2>for dinner. But it gave us all a reason to

1:10:20.000 --> 1:10:23.000
<v Speaker 2>be together. It's kind of a family thing, you know,

1:10:23.560 --> 1:10:25.679
<v Speaker 2>And that was pretty civilized, I think.

1:10:26.840 --> 1:10:27.840
<v Speaker 1>So do you know how to cook?

1:10:28.960 --> 1:10:35.720
<v Speaker 2>I love to cook. And the what I remember quite

1:10:36.080 --> 1:10:40.400
<v Speaker 2>fondly from my night to cook at college was the

1:10:40.439 --> 1:10:44.880
<v Speaker 2>Moose Would Cookbook, the famous Moose Would cook Book, which

1:10:44.880 --> 1:10:50.760
<v Speaker 2>is all vegetarian and so and I still have my

1:10:50.840 --> 1:10:55.280
<v Speaker 2>copy that's covered in grease and dirt and you know,

1:10:55.400 --> 1:11:03.599
<v Speaker 2>stains from food. Anyway, I love to cook, but I'll

1:11:03.600 --> 1:11:08.240
<v Speaker 2>be honest with you and say that I'm a little

1:11:08.360 --> 1:11:10.680
<v Speaker 2>lazy about cooking just for myself.

1:11:11.680 --> 1:11:12.040
<v Speaker 1>And so.

1:11:13.800 --> 1:11:16.880
<v Speaker 2>There's a lot of that because I'm hermit.

1:11:18.479 --> 1:11:23.160
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so you are alone. You do have to eat? Yes,

1:11:23.240 --> 1:11:25.600
<v Speaker 1>what are you just freshing at? What's the refrigerator? Do

1:11:25.640 --> 1:11:27.160
<v Speaker 1>you plan a meal? What does it look like?

1:11:27.920 --> 1:11:34.920
<v Speaker 2>I plan it like I I like to be able

1:11:35.400 --> 1:11:40.000
<v Speaker 2>to be like I have about three different you know

1:11:40.280 --> 1:11:43.200
<v Speaker 2>go tos that I don't have to think about. And

1:11:43.240 --> 1:11:46.479
<v Speaker 2>then other days when I really want something different, I'll

1:11:46.640 --> 1:11:50.559
<v Speaker 2>make the effort to like make something new. But you know,

1:11:50.600 --> 1:11:54.040
<v Speaker 2>I just like to make my salmon with my Asian

1:11:54.320 --> 1:11:57.960
<v Speaker 2>marinade and peanut butter, sesame noodles, or like to make

1:11:58.000 --> 1:12:03.000
<v Speaker 2>my home homemade chicken noodles, soup, or you know, just

1:12:04.240 --> 1:12:08.599
<v Speaker 2>you know, just stuff, you know, comfort food Ininegarten, barefoot contessa,

1:12:08.840 --> 1:12:09.599
<v Speaker 2>easy peasy.

1:12:10.200 --> 1:12:15.080
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, okay, we're talking around the time of the holidays.

1:12:15.880 --> 1:12:17.520
<v Speaker 1>What will you do for the holidays.

1:12:18.720 --> 1:12:23.679
<v Speaker 2>I will have family come to the farm where it's

1:12:23.720 --> 1:12:26.360
<v Speaker 2>a it's a Thanksgiving pot luck in that sense, like

1:12:26.439 --> 1:12:31.679
<v Speaker 2>everybody brings a dish whatever. And some of my sisters

1:12:31.720 --> 1:12:37.120
<v Speaker 2>have giant children, so they eat a lot, so you know,

1:12:37.280 --> 1:12:40.080
<v Speaker 2>they they they're giant people and they eat a lot

1:12:40.080 --> 1:12:43.599
<v Speaker 2>of food. So like that sister, the mother of those

1:12:43.640 --> 1:12:47.960
<v Speaker 2>particular giant children, will bring like the giant turkey.

1:12:48.840 --> 1:12:49.040
<v Speaker 1>You know.

1:12:50.120 --> 1:12:53.320
<v Speaker 2>It's sort of divvied up that way anyway. But everybody comes.

1:12:53.439 --> 1:12:57.160
<v Speaker 2>Everybody comes to my house and and we eat, and

1:12:57.160 --> 1:12:59.840
<v Speaker 2>then we take a long walk with the dogs. And

1:13:01.680 --> 1:13:04.639
<v Speaker 2>then before it's dark everybody starts to pack up in their.

1:13:04.439 --> 1:13:07.519
<v Speaker 1>Clone, and how many people will come this year?

1:13:07.560 --> 1:13:10.799
<v Speaker 2>It'll be twelve, I think twelve or thirteen.

1:13:12.120 --> 1:13:15.719
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so everybody in your family lives within driving distance.

1:13:16.720 --> 1:13:26.400
<v Speaker 2>Not everyone, but in this particular case. Yes, these are sisters, spouses, nieces, nephews,

1:13:26.680 --> 1:13:27.760
<v Speaker 2>no grandchildren yet.

1:13:28.200 --> 1:13:31.280
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so you're three out of four in the family.

1:13:33.120 --> 1:13:37.760
<v Speaker 1>You have your personality, we've established. What are the other

1:13:37.800 --> 1:13:38.320
<v Speaker 1>three like?

1:13:41.520 --> 1:13:45.360
<v Speaker 2>Thank god they're different from me. Now, I think we're

1:13:45.400 --> 1:13:50.800
<v Speaker 2>all I think we're all somewhat similar. I don't know,

1:13:51.400 --> 1:13:52.920
<v Speaker 2>i'd sort of I feel like I'm not the best

1:13:53.000 --> 1:13:54.400
<v Speaker 2>judge of this. I don't really know.

1:13:55.600 --> 1:13:57.559
<v Speaker 1>I mean, they're your siblings. You grew up in the

1:13:57.600 --> 1:13:59.880
<v Speaker 1>house and there's four kids. You know, there's a lot

1:14:00.120 --> 1:14:01.800
<v Speaker 1>going on. I grew up with three kids. You know,

1:14:01.880 --> 1:14:03.840
<v Speaker 1>the parents are on hands on me. It's not like

1:14:03.880 --> 1:14:07.440
<v Speaker 1>if there's one kid. So there's one kid who's the outgoing,

1:14:07.720 --> 1:14:09.599
<v Speaker 1>one of the sports person one of all. He sits

1:14:09.640 --> 1:14:13.240
<v Speaker 1>on the sidelines. Their connections, their wars or arguments. What

1:14:13.280 --> 1:14:17.200
<v Speaker 1>are the young what are the other three up to?

1:14:17.280 --> 1:14:18.519
<v Speaker 1>What did their lives look like?

1:14:18.640 --> 1:14:22.679
<v Speaker 2>Okay, you really want to know all? Yeah, you're very thorough.

1:14:24.520 --> 1:14:28.760
<v Speaker 2>My youngest sister is an elite athlete. It's like, how

1:14:29.120 --> 1:14:33.080
<v Speaker 2>how how how the hell am I related to her?

1:14:33.200 --> 1:14:35.639
<v Speaker 2>I do not know? And that she's first of all,

1:14:35.640 --> 1:14:39.680
<v Speaker 2>she's tall. I'm so short. She's super tall. And she

1:14:39.880 --> 1:14:46.080
<v Speaker 2>has been a runner, an elite runner for many years.

1:14:46.160 --> 1:14:48.479
<v Speaker 2>She's one of those people that runs like one hundred

1:14:48.520 --> 1:14:49.160
<v Speaker 2>mile races.

1:14:49.479 --> 1:14:51.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, right, ultra maritha ultra.

1:14:51.880 --> 1:14:55.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, she's an ultra athlete. And you know they start

1:14:55.160 --> 1:14:58.439
<v Speaker 2>at midnight through the woods in the Shenandoah Valley and

1:14:58.479 --> 1:14:59.800
<v Speaker 2>then that's a famous race.

1:15:00.280 --> 1:15:01.799
<v Speaker 1>I know about it, yes, yeah, yeah.

1:15:01.680 --> 1:15:06.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah yeah, And I mean it's amazing, it's amazing what

1:15:06.920 --> 1:15:10.800
<v Speaker 2>she does. So anyway she does that. Then my other sister,

1:15:10.800 --> 1:15:14.439
<v Speaker 2>who's closest in age to me, and she's older, she

1:15:14.800 --> 1:15:20.360
<v Speaker 2>is so smart it scares me. She's just like brilliant

1:15:20.560 --> 1:15:24.679
<v Speaker 2>and she's retired now from her job, but she she's

1:15:24.800 --> 1:15:27.880
<v Speaker 2>just like she knows, she just knows things, and she's

1:15:28.000 --> 1:15:34.519
<v Speaker 2>just she's so smart about art and science and music

1:15:34.680 --> 1:15:39.960
<v Speaker 2>and all sorts of things, and she's just she's just

1:15:40.000 --> 1:15:43.439
<v Speaker 2>incredibly smart. And then my oldest, oldest sister, and she

1:15:43.560 --> 1:15:45.800
<v Speaker 2>is also retired from her job, but she was a

1:15:45.880 --> 1:15:50.800
<v Speaker 2>journalist and you know, just is one awards and just

1:15:51.280 --> 1:15:55.960
<v Speaker 2>super smart too. It's like we're all We're all different

1:15:56.000 --> 1:16:00.240
<v Speaker 2>in terms of what we've pursued, but I guess we

1:16:00.320 --> 1:16:02.479
<v Speaker 2>have we share some things. I don't know what.

1:16:03.120 --> 1:16:08.080
<v Speaker 1>So all girls, all girls? And are the other ones

1:16:08.120 --> 1:16:09.439
<v Speaker 1>married with children or not?

1:16:11.439 --> 1:16:15.719
<v Speaker 2>My youngest sister is married. My two older sisters are divorced.

1:16:16.320 --> 1:16:18.240
<v Speaker 1>Were there any children in any of these stories?

1:16:18.400 --> 1:16:19.639
<v Speaker 2>Yes, they all have children.

1:16:20.320 --> 1:16:25.479
<v Speaker 1>Okay, yeah, you're growing up. Are people referring to you

1:16:25.600 --> 1:16:29.280
<v Speaker 1>as Mary Chapin or Mary from the beginning?

1:16:29.320 --> 1:16:34.320
<v Speaker 2>It was a double name, right, as I understand, Yes,

1:16:34.360 --> 1:16:36.400
<v Speaker 2>it's always been a double name, like Mary Beth or

1:16:36.479 --> 1:16:37.320
<v Speaker 2>Mary Anne, but it's.

1:16:37.160 --> 1:16:39.960
<v Speaker 1>Married chap Okay, your siblings have double names.

1:16:40.439 --> 1:16:47.599
<v Speaker 2>No, my mother was Mary Bowie. She was from the South,

1:16:47.800 --> 1:16:50.240
<v Speaker 2>and the South have this tradition, as I understand that

1:16:50.680 --> 1:16:53.439
<v Speaker 2>double first names. Anyway, So she was Mary Bowie. My

1:16:53.479 --> 1:16:57.080
<v Speaker 2>father's first name is Chapin, so and they named me

1:16:57.200 --> 1:16:57.840
<v Speaker 2>Mary Chapin.

1:16:58.720 --> 1:17:02.040
<v Speaker 1>Okay, you're going to school. Are you the smartest kid

1:17:02.080 --> 1:17:03.759
<v Speaker 1>in your class? No?

1:17:05.640 --> 1:17:09.800
<v Speaker 2>And I always felt and still do or fear like

1:17:09.920 --> 1:17:17.599
<v Speaker 2>I'm I'm not the smartest person you know, remember broadcast news. Yeah,

1:17:18.280 --> 1:17:23.599
<v Speaker 2>movie Holly Hunter and that famous scene where he says

1:17:23.640 --> 1:17:27.800
<v Speaker 2>to her, it must be so he's being facetious. Of course,

1:17:27.840 --> 1:17:31.280
<v Speaker 2>he must be so hard to always be the smartest

1:17:31.280 --> 1:17:34.439
<v Speaker 2>person in the room, right, And she looks at him

1:17:34.640 --> 1:17:40.160
<v Speaker 2>so earnestly and says, it is. It is, Holly Hunter.

1:17:40.360 --> 1:17:44.920
<v Speaker 2>Love it anyway? So no, I never feel like the

1:17:44.920 --> 1:17:46.040
<v Speaker 2>smartest person in the room.

1:17:46.040 --> 1:17:49.320
<v Speaker 1>Well, listen, let's call a spade of spade. Unless you're

1:17:49.560 --> 1:17:53.640
<v Speaker 1>like a internationally famous juggler or something, you have to

1:17:53.680 --> 1:17:58.840
<v Speaker 1>be very smart to get into Brown. You can talk

1:17:58.880 --> 1:18:01.719
<v Speaker 1>it down all you want. Did you go to public

1:18:01.720 --> 1:18:02.960
<v Speaker 1>school or parochial school?

1:18:03.800 --> 1:18:07.439
<v Speaker 2>I went to a private school, private school, and I went.

1:18:07.920 --> 1:18:11.320
<v Speaker 2>I went to private school, and then the last two

1:18:11.439 --> 1:18:14.719
<v Speaker 2>years of high school I was in boarding school.

1:18:15.080 --> 1:18:20.040
<v Speaker 1>Where'd you go to boarding school? Taft? You went to Taft? Really?

1:18:20.240 --> 1:18:20.840
<v Speaker 2>Yes, sir?

1:18:20.960 --> 1:18:25.680
<v Speaker 1>I did? Good or bad experience? Oh good? Why did

1:18:25.680 --> 1:18:26.719
<v Speaker 1>your parents send your way?

1:18:27.640 --> 1:18:30.040
<v Speaker 2>They were getting divorced and I wanted to get the

1:18:30.080 --> 1:18:30.960
<v Speaker 2>hell out of Dodge?

1:18:31.080 --> 1:18:34.960
<v Speaker 1>Sure, yeah, okay, my parents fought plenty, but they were

1:18:34.960 --> 1:18:38.320
<v Speaker 1>not divorced. Did you know that they were heading in

1:18:38.360 --> 1:18:38.960
<v Speaker 1>this direction?

1:18:39.920 --> 1:18:44.080
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely? Absolutely? It was yeah, I did.

1:18:45.040 --> 1:18:47.919
<v Speaker 1>What was the thought amongst the kids, this is horrifying,

1:18:48.000 --> 1:18:49.920
<v Speaker 1>is going to break up the family? Or thank God?

1:18:50.400 --> 1:18:50.640
<v Speaker 1>Or what?

1:18:51.760 --> 1:18:54.320
<v Speaker 2>I think it was both? You know, I think it

1:18:54.360 --> 1:18:57.080
<v Speaker 2>was I think it was a relief that it was

1:18:57.120 --> 1:19:00.240
<v Speaker 2>like something was finally going to shift, because it was

1:19:00.360 --> 1:19:04.040
<v Speaker 2>really toxic to be there. But at the same time,

1:19:04.720 --> 1:19:06.720
<v Speaker 2>you know, it's an unknown and you don't know what's

1:19:06.760 --> 1:19:11.080
<v Speaker 2>going to happen, and you're fifteen years old and you're scared,

1:19:11.520 --> 1:19:15.519
<v Speaker 2>you know, and you're lonely and you're depressed, and you

1:19:15.560 --> 1:19:22.559
<v Speaker 2>don't know what to do that not to not to

1:19:22.640 --> 1:19:24.839
<v Speaker 2>tie this up with a bow and make it all tidy.

1:19:24.920 --> 1:19:29.320
<v Speaker 2>But that to me, what I just said is, you know,

1:19:29.720 --> 1:19:32.640
<v Speaker 2>talk about motivation for wanting to play the guitar and

1:19:32.680 --> 1:19:35.960
<v Speaker 2>write songs and just be in your room and comfort yourself. Somehow,

1:19:37.080 --> 1:19:38.479
<v Speaker 2>that's a big part of it.

1:19:38.760 --> 1:19:40.840
<v Speaker 1>Okay, do either of them find someone.

1:19:40.600 --> 1:19:45.280
<v Speaker 2>New my father? Did my father?

1:19:45.760 --> 1:19:47.200
<v Speaker 1>Was that a cause of the divorce?

1:19:48.680 --> 1:19:50.360
<v Speaker 2>No? No, no, no, no, okay.

1:19:50.600 --> 1:19:53.879
<v Speaker 1>So when when do you first start playing an instrument?

1:19:53.920 --> 1:19:56.120
<v Speaker 1>I mean, did you take piano lessons or how did

1:19:56.160 --> 1:19:56.679
<v Speaker 1>it happen?

1:19:57.640 --> 1:20:03.280
<v Speaker 2>I my mother? You know, you've heard people joke about

1:20:03.280 --> 1:20:05.719
<v Speaker 2>the Great Folks Scare of the early sixties.

1:20:05.840 --> 1:20:08.200
<v Speaker 1>Oh, I remember with a nylon string guitar and the

1:20:08.240 --> 1:20:10.000
<v Speaker 1>sing Peter, Paul and Mary. Believe me, I know.

1:20:10.040 --> 1:20:15.360
<v Speaker 2>Which is what, Bob, You have just landed on it,

1:20:15.439 --> 1:20:19.559
<v Speaker 2>that's right. So my mother had the Goya gut string

1:20:19.600 --> 1:20:23.960
<v Speaker 2>guitar that she would get together with her friends like

1:20:24.000 --> 1:20:26.760
<v Speaker 2>one night a week or something, and they'd all sit

1:20:26.800 --> 1:20:30.120
<v Speaker 2>in a circle and play Kingston Trio whatever. They'd look

1:20:30.160 --> 1:20:33.160
<v Speaker 2>at the chord chart and put their fingers on the

1:20:33.160 --> 1:20:36.479
<v Speaker 2>front board and all that stuff. And then that lasted

1:20:36.560 --> 1:20:38.960
<v Speaker 2>I don't know how long. But then that guitar sat

1:20:39.000 --> 1:20:41.599
<v Speaker 2>in the corner gathering dust, and it's like, I want

1:20:41.600 --> 1:20:45.000
<v Speaker 2>to play that. But also I had a bass ukulele,

1:20:45.160 --> 1:20:47.599
<v Speaker 2>which is the first four strings of the guitar. So

1:20:47.680 --> 1:20:51.680
<v Speaker 2>I started playing bass ukulele and stealing all those songbooks

1:20:51.720 --> 1:20:55.760
<v Speaker 2>and just you know, teaching myself. And then when that

1:20:55.840 --> 1:21:00.840
<v Speaker 2>guitar sat collecting dust, and it was like, okay to

1:21:01.080 --> 1:21:04.759
<v Speaker 2>take mom's guitar. And then that's I started playing her guitar.

1:21:05.560 --> 1:21:10.000
<v Speaker 2>And I remember being in second grade and it was

1:21:10.080 --> 1:21:13.760
<v Speaker 2>time for school assembly and I played Salito Lindo on

1:21:13.840 --> 1:21:16.960
<v Speaker 2>the guitar. I just remember being in second grade, so

1:21:17.400 --> 1:21:19.200
<v Speaker 2>it certainly goes pretty far back.

1:21:20.479 --> 1:21:22.120
<v Speaker 1>Did you ever take any lessons?

1:21:23.360 --> 1:21:25.920
<v Speaker 2>No, not on the guitar. I tried to take piano

1:21:25.960 --> 1:21:27.840
<v Speaker 2>lessons when I was in high school, and I sucked

1:21:27.880 --> 1:21:31.800
<v Speaker 2>so bad I couldn't and I had used my you know,

1:21:31.880 --> 1:21:36.720
<v Speaker 2>I I would teach, you know, learn by listening, you know,

1:21:36.880 --> 1:21:40.200
<v Speaker 2>self taught that way, and I tried to learn how

1:21:40.200 --> 1:21:44.479
<v Speaker 2>to read music. I remember, in particular Bach's minuet and

1:21:44.520 --> 1:21:48.200
<v Speaker 2>g dun't d d d dunt dun you know, but

1:21:48.280 --> 1:21:51.880
<v Speaker 2>I memorized it so I wouldn't read the notes, which

1:21:53.120 --> 1:21:56.480
<v Speaker 2>sabotaged my ability to read music because I would never practice.

1:21:56.840 --> 1:21:58.599
<v Speaker 2>So that was a failure.

1:21:58.760 --> 1:22:02.559
<v Speaker 1>We all saw that movie from that generation. But you

1:22:02.760 --> 1:22:08.240
<v Speaker 1>peak in second grade. Where do you go from second grade?

1:22:09.280 --> 1:22:14.360
<v Speaker 2>You just keep listening and learning, and then the next

1:22:14.400 --> 1:22:17.800
<v Speaker 2>thing felt like, well, I want to write my own songs,

1:22:18.400 --> 1:22:22.320
<v Speaker 2>and I would they. I don't remember any of them,

1:22:22.360 --> 1:22:26.360
<v Speaker 2>but I remember being very deliberate, being like in fifth

1:22:26.400 --> 1:22:30.719
<v Speaker 2>grade or whatever it was, and writing songs, my songs,

1:22:30.880 --> 1:22:32.639
<v Speaker 2>you know, my version of a song.

1:22:41.360 --> 1:22:45.840
<v Speaker 1>Okay, there was you know, the folk of the early sixties,

1:22:46.280 --> 1:22:49.920
<v Speaker 1>then the Meatles hit in sixty four. Most parents were

1:22:49.920 --> 1:22:51.640
<v Speaker 1>not fans of that music.

1:22:51.400 --> 1:22:53.960
<v Speaker 2>Somewhere, but oh my parents loved it.

1:22:54.120 --> 1:22:58.120
<v Speaker 1>Oh really? So, oh were you listening to Top forty radio?

1:22:58.240 --> 1:23:01.360
<v Speaker 1>Were you knowing? Yes, so you were a fan of.

1:23:01.320 --> 1:23:05.559
<v Speaker 2>The music w ABC cousin Brucey.

1:23:05.880 --> 1:23:08.800
<v Speaker 1>Oh the Countdown Tuesday Night, dan Ingram number one in

1:23:08.840 --> 1:23:11.000
<v Speaker 1>the nation in the absolutely.

1:23:11.280 --> 1:23:15.400
<v Speaker 2>And the thing is, as you'll remember, is that you

1:23:15.439 --> 1:23:20.720
<v Speaker 2>could hear Strawberry Fields forever, and then the next thing

1:23:20.760 --> 1:23:24.400
<v Speaker 2>would be the Mom's in the Papas, and then the

1:23:24.439 --> 1:23:29.080
<v Speaker 2>next thing would be the Turtles or Rolling Stones or

1:23:29.240 --> 1:23:34.040
<v Speaker 2>Motown or something like that. So you could hear it all.

1:23:34.120 --> 1:23:36.000
<v Speaker 2>And we had our transistor radios.

1:23:36.240 --> 1:23:39.000
<v Speaker 1>As I always say, I can sing every lick of

1:23:39.360 --> 1:23:42.559
<v Speaker 1>Louie Armstrong solo Dolly because I was waiting for the Beatles,

1:23:42.760 --> 1:23:45.759
<v Speaker 1>because you had to listen to stuff I like today

1:23:45.800 --> 1:23:48.920
<v Speaker 1>that you didn't like. Okay, so you're writing your own

1:23:49.040 --> 1:23:53.080
<v Speaker 1>songs when you are high school with the people in

1:23:53.080 --> 1:23:55.160
<v Speaker 1>the high school say, oh, that's Mary Chape and she's

1:23:55.200 --> 1:23:57.839
<v Speaker 1>the person who plays the guitar or is it a secret?

1:23:59.200 --> 1:24:01.960
<v Speaker 2>No, it wasn't a secret. I when you asked me

1:24:02.000 --> 1:24:05.120
<v Speaker 2>if I liked being a boarding school or you know whatever.

1:24:05.520 --> 1:24:10.040
<v Speaker 2>The first thing I thought of was the small group

1:24:10.080 --> 1:24:13.519
<v Speaker 2>of friends that we'd all hang out, sitting out on

1:24:13.560 --> 1:24:17.840
<v Speaker 2>the grass with our guitars, playing Paul Simon songs. You know,

1:24:18.200 --> 1:24:22.160
<v Speaker 2>just we had our own thing, and it was all

1:24:22.360 --> 1:24:26.360
<v Speaker 2>just I loved hang out with my friends who wanted

1:24:26.360 --> 1:24:27.479
<v Speaker 2>to sing and play like me.

1:24:29.360 --> 1:24:32.400
<v Speaker 1>So, now you go to college, you bring your guitar.

1:24:32.640 --> 1:24:33.559
<v Speaker 1>What does that look like?

1:24:34.439 --> 1:24:36.519
<v Speaker 2>Well, first I took a year off because I could

1:24:36.560 --> 1:24:38.240
<v Speaker 2>not fathom being in college.

1:24:38.240 --> 1:24:40.880
<v Speaker 1>O whit wait, wait, that's a very hip thing now,

1:24:41.040 --> 1:24:42.200
<v Speaker 1>But it wasn't then.

1:24:43.000 --> 1:24:43.720
<v Speaker 2>It wasn't.

1:24:43.960 --> 1:24:46.680
<v Speaker 1>No gap year was a lot of thing would you

1:24:46.720 --> 1:24:47.880
<v Speaker 1>do during your gap year?

1:24:48.920 --> 1:24:53.640
<v Speaker 2>I did a Colorado outward bound ski mountaineering course. I

1:24:53.720 --> 1:24:57.080
<v Speaker 2>drove myself. My grandmother had a car that she couldn't

1:24:57.120 --> 1:25:00.000
<v Speaker 2>drive anymore, so I drove her car out to Colorado

1:25:00.240 --> 1:25:05.040
<v Speaker 2>to Leadville, Colorado. But before that, I well, the whole

1:25:05.080 --> 1:25:07.840
<v Speaker 2>reason that I had her car was because so I

1:25:08.040 --> 1:25:12.040
<v Speaker 2>graduated from high school. And then that summer nineteen seventy six,

1:25:12.520 --> 1:25:14.880
<v Speaker 2>I was on the grounds crew of the National Folk

1:25:14.920 --> 1:25:17.519
<v Speaker 2>Life Festival. It was just the only job I could get,

1:25:18.000 --> 1:25:22.800
<v Speaker 2>and every penny I earned from that, I put it

1:25:22.840 --> 1:25:26.240
<v Speaker 2>in a savings account, and then when that job ended,

1:25:28.439 --> 1:25:32.840
<v Speaker 2>I found a Volkswagen camper bus from a guy I

1:25:32.840 --> 1:25:35.280
<v Speaker 2>was living in DC with my dad, and from a

1:25:35.320 --> 1:25:38.120
<v Speaker 2>guy at the New Zealand Embassy who was selling it

1:25:38.120 --> 1:25:41.559
<v Speaker 2>because he was going back to New Zealand. And I

1:25:41.720 --> 1:25:43.880
<v Speaker 2>spent all the money I had made, which was two

1:25:43.960 --> 1:25:47.800
<v Speaker 2>thousand dollars, and my plan was that I was going

1:25:47.840 --> 1:25:50.280
<v Speaker 2>to spend the rest of my year off just traveling.

1:25:50.360 --> 1:25:54.160
<v Speaker 2>And I had my camper and all these grand plans.

1:25:54.680 --> 1:25:58.280
<v Speaker 2>And then the engine blew up a week after I

1:25:58.280 --> 1:26:01.920
<v Speaker 2>bought it, and he was gone on and I couldn't

1:26:01.920 --> 1:26:04.559
<v Speaker 2>afford to fix it, so I sold it for scrap.

1:26:05.160 --> 1:26:08.800
<v Speaker 2>And then that's when I decided to drive out to

1:26:08.800 --> 1:26:10.240
<v Speaker 2>Colorado in my grandmother's car.

1:26:11.200 --> 1:26:14.880
<v Speaker 1>Traditionally, outward bound courses are relatively brief. How long was

1:26:14.920 --> 1:26:15.679
<v Speaker 1>the one you were in?

1:26:16.400 --> 1:26:16.840
<v Speaker 2>A month?

1:26:18.080 --> 1:26:19.719
<v Speaker 1>Are you an outdoorsy person?

1:26:20.840 --> 1:26:22.800
<v Speaker 2>I'd say so, yeah? Absolutely?

1:26:23.880 --> 1:26:27.519
<v Speaker 1>Okay, So all this gap year, you're still playing the guitar,

1:26:27.720 --> 1:26:28.759
<v Speaker 1>still writing songs?

1:26:29.439 --> 1:26:29.799
<v Speaker 2>Yes?

1:26:30.400 --> 1:26:35.360
<v Speaker 1>So now you show up at college yep? From minute one,

1:26:35.400 --> 1:26:37.599
<v Speaker 1>are you the girl who plays a guitar and writes

1:26:37.600 --> 1:26:38.360
<v Speaker 1>her own songs.

1:26:40.080 --> 1:26:43.800
<v Speaker 2>I'm that person who's sitting in the stairwell or in

1:26:43.840 --> 1:26:47.559
<v Speaker 2>the bathroom that has good acoustics, you know, playing and singing.

1:26:47.640 --> 1:26:52.479
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, okay, we're in this narrative. Now, let me ask

1:26:52.520 --> 1:26:55.719
<v Speaker 1>a different way. When you're playing, whether it be in

1:26:55.840 --> 1:27:00.800
<v Speaker 1>taffed or brown, is there any thought, well, this is

1:27:00.840 --> 1:27:02.200
<v Speaker 1>what I want to do as a career.

1:27:05.080 --> 1:27:08.160
<v Speaker 2>Honestly, I don't think I ever allowed myself to think

1:27:08.200 --> 1:27:11.120
<v Speaker 2>about that because it just was too far fetched.

1:27:12.000 --> 1:27:12.439
<v Speaker 1>I mean.

1:27:15.320 --> 1:27:18.360
<v Speaker 2>No, never never thought for a second.

1:27:18.760 --> 1:27:23.600
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so you're at college for four years. Are you

1:27:23.720 --> 1:27:26.759
<v Speaker 1>performing outside of the bathroom and hallway?

1:27:28.360 --> 1:27:32.320
<v Speaker 2>So what would happened? What happened was I'd be in

1:27:32.360 --> 1:27:37.160
<v Speaker 2>college what fall, winter, and spring, and then I'd go

1:27:37.320 --> 1:27:40.439
<v Speaker 2>home on the summers. I was living with my dad

1:27:41.680 --> 1:27:47.439
<v Speaker 2>right off of Connecticut Avenue and DC, and he one

1:27:47.560 --> 1:27:50.680
<v Speaker 2>night he came into my room and he said, why

1:27:50.680 --> 1:27:52.800
<v Speaker 2>don't you go down to that bar that's down the

1:27:52.800 --> 1:27:56.920
<v Speaker 2>street where they have an open mic night? And I

1:27:56.960 --> 1:28:01.920
<v Speaker 2>was like, I don't, Oh, maybe maybe I could. I

1:28:01.960 --> 1:28:08.280
<v Speaker 2>don't know. Well I did. I went down there, signed up.

1:28:09.120 --> 1:28:11.439
<v Speaker 2>Never been so terrified in my life, but I did it,

1:28:12.400 --> 1:28:17.439
<v Speaker 2>and then played a song or two and thought, well,

1:28:17.479 --> 1:28:19.080
<v Speaker 2>this is okay, this is nice.

1:28:19.120 --> 1:28:19.680
<v Speaker 1>I like this.

1:28:20.240 --> 1:28:23.719
<v Speaker 2>And so every summer between college years, I would come home.

1:28:24.400 --> 1:28:26.960
<v Speaker 2>The lady who ran that bar gave me a job

1:28:27.000 --> 1:28:31.080
<v Speaker 2>on Thursday nights for forty bucks a night, and I

1:28:31.080 --> 1:28:37.120
<v Speaker 2>could not believe it. I was getting paid to play music.

1:28:37.280 --> 1:28:40.760
<v Speaker 1>Okay, let's go down. Hey, why are you staying with

1:28:40.800 --> 1:28:42.559
<v Speaker 1>your father as opposed to your mother?

1:28:44.720 --> 1:28:47.920
<v Speaker 2>Because I just felt like that was where I needed

1:28:47.960 --> 1:28:52.720
<v Speaker 2>to be. My mom lived a few blocks away, and

1:28:54.920 --> 1:28:56.880
<v Speaker 2>I just didn't feel like I was getting along with her.

1:28:57.160 --> 1:29:01.840
<v Speaker 1>Okay, you go to the club at your father's, you know,

1:29:02.040 --> 1:29:06.479
<v Speaker 1>bringing it up. Hey do you play original or covers?

1:29:08.000 --> 1:29:11.360
<v Speaker 1>You say, hey, this is cool? Is there any reaction?

1:29:12.560 --> 1:29:15.680
<v Speaker 1>The other people say, hey, that girls pretty good. Oh.

1:29:15.720 --> 1:29:18.479
<v Speaker 2>I don't know what they said, but they didn't boom me.

1:29:19.200 --> 1:29:22.200
<v Speaker 2>So I think I came away feeling like it was

1:29:22.240 --> 1:29:26.360
<v Speaker 2>a a terrifying but positive experience.

1:29:27.120 --> 1:29:30.720
<v Speaker 1>So ultimately, Thursday night, you are the sole musician on

1:29:30.800 --> 1:29:31.519
<v Speaker 1>Thursday night?

1:29:32.640 --> 1:29:35.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, eventually, eventually, not right away.

1:29:35.800 --> 1:29:38.920
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, so how do you get from open mic

1:29:39.560 --> 1:29:40.400
<v Speaker 1>to your own night?

1:29:41.560 --> 1:29:46.080
<v Speaker 2>So I started going to this open mic more and

1:29:46.120 --> 1:29:52.080
<v Speaker 2>more frequently, and to a few others around town, and

1:29:52.960 --> 1:29:55.720
<v Speaker 2>it gave me a certain amount it had to. It

1:29:55.760 --> 1:29:58.400
<v Speaker 2>gave me a certain amount of confidence, I guess. And

1:29:58.439 --> 1:30:01.639
<v Speaker 2>then like the next that I was home for the summer,

1:30:02.880 --> 1:30:07.040
<v Speaker 2>I remember going up to the proprietor of that bar,

1:30:07.360 --> 1:30:09.559
<v Speaker 2>that first bar that i'd gone to, the open mic,

1:30:10.000 --> 1:30:12.680
<v Speaker 2>and just asking, right because I knew that they had

1:30:12.800 --> 1:30:16.879
<v Speaker 2>music every night, you know, different players, And I said,

1:30:17.040 --> 1:30:20.920
<v Speaker 2>would you ever hire me to play you know, three

1:30:20.960 --> 1:30:25.040
<v Speaker 2>sets or whatever it was? And she said, yeah, I'll

1:30:25.040 --> 1:30:28.920
<v Speaker 2>give you Thursday nights. She just said yeah. And it's like,

1:30:28.960 --> 1:30:33.320
<v Speaker 2>I just it's funny. I don't know, I don't know

1:30:33.360 --> 1:30:35.160
<v Speaker 2>what I expected her to say, but I don't think

1:30:35.160 --> 1:30:38.479
<v Speaker 2>I expected her or to say yes right right, you know,

1:30:38.760 --> 1:30:44.320
<v Speaker 2>I just didn't and but she did, and that.

1:30:43.800 --> 1:30:49.080
<v Speaker 1>That just that was lovely, Okay? Is that your personality?

1:30:49.720 --> 1:30:53.280
<v Speaker 1>We are? However mildly you'll reach out for something or

1:30:53.280 --> 1:30:54.920
<v Speaker 1>do you wait for things to come to you?

1:30:58.040 --> 1:30:59.840
<v Speaker 2>I don't think that I wait for things to come

1:30:59.840 --> 1:31:06.080
<v Speaker 2>to me. I think that I well, I do have

1:31:06.120 --> 1:31:09.280
<v Speaker 2>a bit of a saying that I use in different situations.

1:31:09.320 --> 1:31:12.519
<v Speaker 2>This is not precisely the same the right situation, but

1:31:13.960 --> 1:31:17.639
<v Speaker 2>I would I use the saying replace worry with action.

1:31:18.920 --> 1:31:22.960
<v Speaker 2>It's just like, you know, it's just yeah, I just

1:31:23.000 --> 1:31:26.160
<v Speaker 2>think that I I mean, I'll think about something for

1:31:26.200 --> 1:31:29.080
<v Speaker 2>a while, I'll consider something for a long time, but

1:31:29.120 --> 1:31:32.160
<v Speaker 2>then at a certain point it's like I'm going to

1:31:32.280 --> 1:31:36.439
<v Speaker 2>just ask the question now, or I'm going to make

1:31:36.479 --> 1:31:38.280
<v Speaker 2>the inquiry. I'm going to find out.

1:31:39.880 --> 1:31:43.160
<v Speaker 1>So you're playing on Thursday night? Two sets? Are these

1:31:43.200 --> 1:31:46.120
<v Speaker 1>originals covers? Mix? What is it?

1:31:46.120 --> 1:31:49.320
<v Speaker 2>It's a mix? It's like I I would sort of

1:31:49.800 --> 1:31:53.040
<v Speaker 2>I would describe it as playing sort of acoustic top

1:31:53.120 --> 1:31:57.799
<v Speaker 2>forty with a few originals sprinkled in and hope nobody

1:31:57.840 --> 1:31:59.599
<v Speaker 2>would notice, which they didn't.

1:32:00.680 --> 1:32:02.840
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so that is after you graduate, or that's the

1:32:02.920 --> 1:32:03.519
<v Speaker 1>last summer.

1:32:04.360 --> 1:32:07.879
<v Speaker 2>That's that's the that's the summers throughout college.

1:32:09.040 --> 1:32:12.400
<v Speaker 1>Okay, So now you is there other than showing up

1:32:12.479 --> 1:32:17.280
<v Speaker 1>getting your forty bucks? Is there anything happening anybody saying hey,

1:32:17.360 --> 1:32:19.960
<v Speaker 1>I want to play with you or you know networking?

1:32:20.000 --> 1:32:20.800
<v Speaker 1>Are you just there?

1:32:22.200 --> 1:32:24.760
<v Speaker 2>There were a couple of people who were that I

1:32:25.000 --> 1:32:28.679
<v Speaker 2>made friends with during the open mics that we would play,

1:32:29.200 --> 1:32:34.280
<v Speaker 2>you know, you know, sort of have casual sort of

1:32:34.320 --> 1:32:39.120
<v Speaker 2>like a duo or whatever, or or just get around

1:32:39.120 --> 1:32:42.640
<v Speaker 2>and you know, sit around tables and play together, but

1:32:42.800 --> 1:32:44.360
<v Speaker 2>nothing in a formal sense.

1:32:45.240 --> 1:32:48.800
<v Speaker 1>So now you graduate, then what well?

1:32:49.280 --> 1:32:54.400
<v Speaker 2>I do remember? I actually remember this. I remember another

1:32:54.920 --> 1:32:58.200
<v Speaker 2>person I knew at college who was visiting DC and

1:32:58.240 --> 1:33:01.160
<v Speaker 2>he came to the bar on the night that I

1:33:01.240 --> 1:33:03.840
<v Speaker 2>was playing, and he was from I don't know where

1:33:03.840 --> 1:33:06.400
<v Speaker 2>he was from originally, but he was all about he

1:33:06.479 --> 1:33:08.720
<v Speaker 2>was living in LA or something, and he said, why

1:33:08.760 --> 1:33:12.720
<v Speaker 2>aren't you moving to LA? And I remember going, I

1:33:12.720 --> 1:33:15.280
<v Speaker 2>don't know, I don't want to live in LA. And

1:33:15.360 --> 1:33:18.759
<v Speaker 2>he sort of made me whatever he said. I remember

1:33:18.840 --> 1:33:20.800
<v Speaker 2>coming away from the conversation where it's sort of like,

1:33:21.760 --> 1:33:24.599
<v Speaker 2>you know, he just believed he's one of those people

1:33:24.600 --> 1:33:27.360
<v Speaker 2>that says you have to go to these places to

1:33:27.479 --> 1:33:32.880
<v Speaker 2>be discovered or to get traction, and I was like,

1:33:33.160 --> 1:33:37.200
<v Speaker 2>I kind of like what I like being where I

1:33:37.240 --> 1:33:40.200
<v Speaker 2>am and I don't think I have it in me

1:33:40.320 --> 1:33:44.240
<v Speaker 2>to move to a strange city. I just didn't never. Never,

1:33:45.640 --> 1:33:47.800
<v Speaker 2>it was never something I felt like doing or wanted

1:33:47.840 --> 1:33:48.080
<v Speaker 2>to do.

1:33:49.720 --> 1:33:53.760
<v Speaker 1>So once again, you graduate from college, then would you Yeah?

1:33:54.000 --> 1:33:57.320
<v Speaker 2>And then I was living in another group house in

1:33:57.439 --> 1:34:02.880
<v Speaker 2>DC and just making my rent with open mics and

1:34:03.520 --> 1:34:06.360
<v Speaker 2>one bar in particular where I would play on Friday

1:34:06.479 --> 1:34:09.360
<v Speaker 2>nights and pass the hat, and I'd play from six

1:34:09.439 --> 1:34:12.160
<v Speaker 2>to midnight passing the hat, and I could make my

1:34:12.240 --> 1:34:16.120
<v Speaker 2>rent money on those nights. And so I did that

1:34:16.160 --> 1:34:19.080
<v Speaker 2>for a long time, and then I reached a point

1:34:19.120 --> 1:34:22.960
<v Speaker 2>where I like, after a couple of years, I'd say,

1:34:23.880 --> 1:34:27.200
<v Speaker 2>I just in the my friends that I was sharing

1:34:27.200 --> 1:34:29.479
<v Speaker 2>the group house with, they all had they sort of

1:34:29.520 --> 1:34:34.080
<v Speaker 2>had careers that were starting to like real careers, and

1:34:34.160 --> 1:34:40.519
<v Speaker 2>I was just kind of playing the open mics and

1:34:41.360 --> 1:34:46.320
<v Speaker 2>doing temp jobs. And I realized at a certain point

1:34:46.360 --> 1:34:47.560
<v Speaker 2>I was really depressed.

1:34:47.680 --> 1:34:48.240
<v Speaker 1>I just.

1:34:49.840 --> 1:34:53.120
<v Speaker 2>It's not like I had some vision of what was

1:34:53.160 --> 1:34:56.280
<v Speaker 2>supposed at what my life was supposed to look like,

1:34:56.479 --> 1:34:59.680
<v Speaker 2>but I just didn't really know what I wanted in

1:34:59.720 --> 1:35:04.519
<v Speaker 2>my life. And I think I just saw I just decided, well,

1:35:04.560 --> 1:35:07.120
<v Speaker 2>this is just what I am. Whatever I am doing

1:35:07.240 --> 1:35:09.439
<v Speaker 2>is not making me happy, so I need to do

1:35:09.479 --> 1:35:12.280
<v Speaker 2>something else. And so I this was back in the

1:35:12.360 --> 1:35:15.360
<v Speaker 2>day when you would get out the want ads at

1:35:15.360 --> 1:35:19.599
<v Speaker 2>the Washington Post, you know, turn the pages. And I

1:35:19.640 --> 1:35:23.120
<v Speaker 2>remember looking for like a job, like a real job,

1:35:23.920 --> 1:35:28.800
<v Speaker 2>and there was some consulting firm on K Street that

1:35:30.600 --> 1:35:34.720
<v Speaker 2>gave me an interview as a researcher. You know, I

1:35:34.760 --> 1:35:38.880
<v Speaker 2>could type, you know, all that stuff, and I had

1:35:38.880 --> 1:35:44.320
<v Speaker 2>a brain. And I remember sitting with the woman who

1:35:44.360 --> 1:35:46.720
<v Speaker 2>was interviewing me, and she said, if we were to

1:35:46.720 --> 1:35:50.680
<v Speaker 2>offer you this job, how likely is it that you

1:35:50.680 --> 1:35:52.479
<v Speaker 2>would take it? And I looked at her and I said,

1:35:52.720 --> 1:35:56.800
<v Speaker 2>it's very likely. You know, I I'm ready to do this.

1:35:58.080 --> 1:36:02.320
<v Speaker 2>And and then a week later, it was a Friday,

1:36:03.120 --> 1:36:05.800
<v Speaker 2>she called me on the phone and she offered me

1:36:05.880 --> 1:36:13.840
<v Speaker 2>the job formally, and I panicked, and I said, could

1:36:13.880 --> 1:36:16.600
<v Speaker 2>I have the weekend to think about it? And I

1:36:16.600 --> 1:36:20.120
<v Speaker 2>could hear how annoyed she was in her voice, but

1:36:20.320 --> 1:36:25.000
<v Speaker 2>she said, okay, right, fine, And that weekend I just

1:36:25.240 --> 1:36:27.559
<v Speaker 2>sort of had this come to Jesus kind of reckoning

1:36:27.600 --> 1:36:33.200
<v Speaker 2>with myself, like I don't know, I don't know what

1:36:33.320 --> 1:36:35.839
<v Speaker 2>I'm doing, but I just know that I'm not ready

1:36:36.479 --> 1:36:38.880
<v Speaker 2>to do what that job is.

1:36:40.400 --> 1:36:40.880
<v Speaker 1>And it was.

1:36:40.840 --> 1:36:44.960
<v Speaker 2>Around that time that I had met this person named

1:36:45.000 --> 1:36:51.439
<v Speaker 2>John Jennings, and you know, sidebar, he and I had

1:36:51.479 --> 1:36:53.559
<v Speaker 2>dated for a while that didn't work out, but we

1:36:53.640 --> 1:36:57.800
<v Speaker 2>remained friends. And he was a great musician and he

1:36:57.880 --> 1:37:02.920
<v Speaker 2>had a studio in his basement and I remember it

1:37:02.960 --> 1:37:06.920
<v Speaker 2>was very soon after I turned that job down that

1:37:07.080 --> 1:37:09.479
<v Speaker 2>John said, well, let's just you know, let's make you

1:37:09.720 --> 1:37:11.760
<v Speaker 2>let's make a demo tape. Let's make it, or no,

1:37:11.880 --> 1:37:16.200
<v Speaker 2>let's make a tape that you can sell out of

1:37:16.240 --> 1:37:19.320
<v Speaker 2>your back pocket at gigs. It's like an album, you know,

1:37:19.320 --> 1:37:22.400
<v Speaker 2>you just make a cassette tape. Because people were doing that.

1:37:22.520 --> 1:37:26.920
<v Speaker 2>It was the beginning of indie, you know. And so

1:37:28.240 --> 1:37:35.519
<v Speaker 2>with his help and generosity and guidance and just beautiful spirit,

1:37:37.040 --> 1:37:46.000
<v Speaker 2>he helped me make a record. And you know, fast

1:37:46.040 --> 1:37:50.679
<v Speaker 2>forward a few a year or two, that record ended

1:37:50.800 --> 1:37:55.760
<v Speaker 2>up in the hands of A and R gentleman. It's

1:37:55.760 --> 1:38:02.000
<v Speaker 2>Sony in Nashville, and I got a record deal. Go figure.

1:38:03.760 --> 1:38:08.360
<v Speaker 1>Okay, just to drill down a little bit, here, you

1:38:08.479 --> 1:38:12.960
<v Speaker 1>make the tape you hear from the guy in Nashville

1:38:13.000 --> 1:38:17.680
<v Speaker 1>from Sony. These things are never smooth. Time goes by,

1:38:17.880 --> 1:38:20.800
<v Speaker 1>there's up and down, there's angst. I mean, what was

1:38:20.920 --> 1:38:25.920
<v Speaker 1>really the experience from first hearing from him to putting

1:38:25.960 --> 1:38:26.960
<v Speaker 1>your ink on paper.

1:38:29.960 --> 1:38:34.040
<v Speaker 2>I honestly don't remember there being a period of time

1:38:34.040 --> 1:38:39.040
<v Speaker 2>where it was like in doubt or close in doubt again,

1:38:39.280 --> 1:38:41.160
<v Speaker 2>or close or it's gonna happen, or it's not going

1:38:41.200 --> 1:38:44.639
<v Speaker 2>to happen. I just don't remember any sort of tumultuous

1:38:46.360 --> 1:38:50.360
<v Speaker 2>period of time between the time they offered me a

1:38:50.400 --> 1:38:53.479
<v Speaker 2>record deal and the time I signed. I just don't

1:38:53.520 --> 1:38:54.080
<v Speaker 2>remember it.

1:38:54.320 --> 1:38:59.160
<v Speaker 1>Okay, the guys in Nashville. Country music is morphed through

1:38:59.200 --> 1:39:03.599
<v Speaker 1>a lot of things. Yes, since the nineties. Yeah, you're

1:39:03.640 --> 1:39:07.680
<v Speaker 1>a girl from the East coast, goes with ivylea college

1:39:07.960 --> 1:39:09.680
<v Speaker 1>guy signing out of Nashville. In the back of your

1:39:09.720 --> 1:39:12.280
<v Speaker 1>mind said well, you know, this is country music.

1:39:13.560 --> 1:39:17.000
<v Speaker 2>So I think part of the reason it happened is

1:39:17.040 --> 1:39:26.080
<v Speaker 2>because he was new to Nashville. He had been an

1:39:26.120 --> 1:39:29.280
<v Speaker 2>A and R person for Sony in the pop work,

1:39:30.520 --> 1:39:34.599
<v Speaker 2>and he was I think they were starting to try

1:39:34.640 --> 1:39:37.000
<v Speaker 2>to see that there was a lot of different things

1:39:37.080 --> 1:39:40.880
<v Speaker 2>under the big umbrella of country music, and people like

1:39:42.320 --> 1:39:46.200
<v Speaker 2>Steve Earle and Roseanne Cash and Lyle love It, Rodney

1:39:46.240 --> 1:39:49.960
<v Speaker 2>Crowe and Guy Clark certainly, and just there was a

1:39:50.040 --> 1:39:56.160
<v Speaker 2>lot of different strains, right, And I think they hired

1:39:56.240 --> 1:39:59.479
<v Speaker 2>him because they I mean, I don't know, but I

1:39:59.520 --> 1:40:05.000
<v Speaker 2>think they, you know, he was going to broaden the

1:40:05.040 --> 1:40:08.160
<v Speaker 2>horizons of Sony music. I don't know, I don't know.

1:40:08.560 --> 1:40:09.360
<v Speaker 2>I still don't know.

1:40:09.880 --> 1:40:14.080
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so you're working with Sony, you make a record.

1:40:14.560 --> 1:40:17.920
<v Speaker 1>Certainly at that time, and still with major labels today,

1:40:18.600 --> 1:40:21.200
<v Speaker 1>they tend to put you to work. They tend to

1:40:21.200 --> 1:40:25.400
<v Speaker 1>say do this, do that whatever. So before you had

1:40:25.439 --> 1:40:30.840
<v Speaker 1>any commercial success, were you driven and were you you know,

1:40:30.960 --> 1:40:34.160
<v Speaker 1>were you working showing up at radio stations, playing gigs?

1:40:34.200 --> 1:40:34.400
<v Speaker 2>You know?

1:40:34.479 --> 1:40:36.559
<v Speaker 1>To few people, well, what did that period look like?

1:40:38.120 --> 1:40:41.800
<v Speaker 2>First of all, I didn't quit my day job for

1:40:41.960 --> 1:40:46.479
<v Speaker 2>two after I had made two records, and then I quit.

1:40:46.280 --> 1:40:47.960
<v Speaker 1>My day job. And the day job at that point

1:40:48.000 --> 1:40:49.200
<v Speaker 1>was what it was.

1:40:49.280 --> 1:40:53.679
<v Speaker 2>I was an administration assistant at a foundation at DuPont Cervo,

1:40:54.960 --> 1:40:57.120
<v Speaker 2>and as long as I got my work done, you know,

1:40:57.320 --> 1:40:59.599
<v Speaker 2>Like I just remember this one. We got a gig

1:41:00.080 --> 1:41:02.240
<v Speaker 2>to open for Lyle love It in Chicago, so we

1:41:02.320 --> 1:41:05.240
<v Speaker 2>all sort of like got in our cars and made

1:41:05.280 --> 1:41:09.000
<v Speaker 2>a long weekend of it, drove out there, did the gig,

1:41:09.240 --> 1:41:11.559
<v Speaker 2>came back, and I was back at the job on

1:41:11.680 --> 1:41:14.360
<v Speaker 2>Monday morning. You know, it's like you figure out ways

1:41:14.400 --> 1:41:15.080
<v Speaker 2>to make it work.

1:41:15.160 --> 1:41:15.439
<v Speaker 1>It was.

1:41:15.800 --> 1:41:18.080
<v Speaker 2>You know, it's the myth of the major label deal

1:41:18.640 --> 1:41:20.680
<v Speaker 2>that you sign on the dotted line and they give

1:41:20.720 --> 1:41:23.600
<v Speaker 2>you a tour bus and a budget, and you know,

1:41:23.640 --> 1:41:27.680
<v Speaker 2>it's like, no, that was not my experience. And so,

1:41:27.760 --> 1:41:30.720
<v Speaker 2>like I said, I didn't quit my job until and

1:41:30.760 --> 1:41:33.320
<v Speaker 2>I didn't quit my job because of my record deal.

1:41:33.320 --> 1:41:35.639
<v Speaker 2>I quit my job because I finally got a publishing deal.

1:41:36.080 --> 1:41:39.200
<v Speaker 2>They paid me a small amount of money per week

1:41:39.200 --> 1:41:41.240
<v Speaker 2>as long as I handed in whatever it was at

1:41:41.240 --> 1:41:43.560
<v Speaker 2>that time, like ten songs over the course of a

1:41:43.640 --> 1:41:46.280
<v Speaker 2>year or something like that. That's what allowed me to

1:41:46.360 --> 1:41:46.960
<v Speaker 2>quit my job.

1:41:47.160 --> 1:41:49.759
<v Speaker 1>That begs a question who owns those songs today?

1:41:52.479 --> 1:41:54.080
<v Speaker 2>I can't remember the name of the company.

1:41:54.400 --> 1:41:56.000
<v Speaker 1>Now let me let me put it in a couple

1:41:56.000 --> 1:42:00.960
<v Speaker 1>of ways. Normally, you make a publishing deal. Modern publishing deals,

1:42:01.280 --> 1:42:03.960
<v Speaker 1>they take half of the publisher's share, leaving you with

1:42:04.040 --> 1:42:08.519
<v Speaker 1>seventy five percent. Now, these things tend to terminate where

1:42:08.560 --> 1:42:10.920
<v Speaker 1>the artist after period of time owns one hundred percent.

1:42:10.920 --> 1:42:13.200
<v Speaker 1>But certainly back then that might not be the case,

1:42:13.479 --> 1:42:16.840
<v Speaker 1>where the publisher would continue to own an administer for

1:42:16.920 --> 1:42:20.680
<v Speaker 1>the life and the copyright. So in terms forgetting the

1:42:20.760 --> 1:42:25.840
<v Speaker 1>administrator the songs themselves, do you share them with a

1:42:25.880 --> 1:42:27.960
<v Speaker 1>company or do you own them one hundred percent?

1:42:28.800 --> 1:42:30.000
<v Speaker 2>I don't own them anymore.

1:42:31.360 --> 1:42:34.120
<v Speaker 1>Okay, let me ask you a question. So in this

1:42:34.400 --> 1:42:37.919
<v Speaker 1>craziness of the last five years you so called soldier catalog.

1:42:40.479 --> 1:42:41.960
<v Speaker 1>What was the motivation there?

1:42:46.960 --> 1:42:57.280
<v Speaker 2>Security just feeling like it was the right time and

1:42:57.320 --> 1:43:01.800
<v Speaker 2>the right decision for my life, and certainly upon the

1:43:01.840 --> 1:43:05.320
<v Speaker 2>advice of some really trusted people. It was certainly not

1:43:05.439 --> 1:43:10.840
<v Speaker 2>an impulsive move. It was considered over a very long

1:43:10.880 --> 1:43:11.759
<v Speaker 2>period of time.

1:43:12.280 --> 1:43:15.280
<v Speaker 1>And did you make the kind of deal where you're done,

1:43:15.400 --> 1:43:17.960
<v Speaker 1>done done, or do you still have any interest in

1:43:18.000 --> 1:43:18.640
<v Speaker 1>the catalog?

1:43:20.920 --> 1:43:22.040
<v Speaker 2>How would I have interest to me?

1:43:22.360 --> 1:43:23.840
<v Speaker 1>Sometimes you sell seventy five percent.

1:43:25.000 --> 1:43:27.880
<v Speaker 2>Oh no, I think I'm done, done done.

1:43:27.960 --> 1:43:30.800
<v Speaker 1>Okay, So what'd you do with the money?

1:43:31.000 --> 1:43:32.280
<v Speaker 2>None of your business?

1:43:32.600 --> 1:43:37.639
<v Speaker 1>Well, I mean musicians are legendarily not good with money.

1:43:38.120 --> 1:43:40.639
<v Speaker 1>So I know someone who made a very lucrative deal

1:43:40.720 --> 1:43:43.559
<v Speaker 1>household name, and within two and a half years blew

1:43:43.560 --> 1:43:45.440
<v Speaker 1>through all the money in lifestyle.

1:43:46.000 --> 1:43:46.960
<v Speaker 2>This is someone that's crazy.

1:43:47.040 --> 1:43:50.320
<v Speaker 1>So everybody knows this person. Then there are other people

1:43:50.320 --> 1:43:53.400
<v Speaker 1>who say, well, I'm going to have a diversified thing,

1:43:53.479 --> 1:43:55.639
<v Speaker 1>I'm going to have stocks, I'm going to have real estates,

1:43:55.680 --> 1:43:57.760
<v Speaker 1>I'm bonds. Then there are other people say, oh, I

1:43:57.760 --> 1:44:01.760
<v Speaker 1>always wanted a vacation house. So the real question is

1:44:02.240 --> 1:44:06.600
<v Speaker 1>wherever the money was invested. Are these long term investments

1:44:06.680 --> 1:44:09.400
<v Speaker 1>such that you don't worry about money you have to

1:44:09.479 --> 1:44:12.160
<v Speaker 1>pay attention to the investments or did you say I

1:44:12.160 --> 1:44:14.280
<v Speaker 1>mean I could tell already you didn't buy some big

1:44:14.360 --> 1:44:17.720
<v Speaker 1>thing because that's not your lifestyle. But you know, did

1:44:17.720 --> 1:44:19.960
<v Speaker 1>you hire a financial advisor and say, hey, I got

1:44:20.160 --> 1:44:21.680
<v Speaker 1>X and you know, let's split it up.

1:44:22.640 --> 1:44:27.320
<v Speaker 2>No, I'm very fortunate that I've had financial advice and

1:44:27.400 --> 1:44:32.479
<v Speaker 2>guidance from my first record onward with a wonderful firm

1:44:32.920 --> 1:44:36.360
<v Speaker 2>that are I truly believe I would have nothing without

1:44:36.400 --> 1:44:39.479
<v Speaker 2>their guidance over these years. And so they've just been

1:44:39.720 --> 1:44:43.559
<v Speaker 2>and they're very conservative, and you know, so I've just

1:44:43.680 --> 1:44:48.479
<v Speaker 2>been very fortunate and grateful for them just being my shepherd,

1:44:48.720 --> 1:44:54.040
<v Speaker 2>you know. And so it's just a it's you know,

1:44:54.080 --> 1:44:57.160
<v Speaker 2>it sort of parked the money and it's you know,

1:44:59.200 --> 1:45:02.720
<v Speaker 2>doing what it does us to keep me secure and

1:45:03.960 --> 1:45:06.559
<v Speaker 2>allowed me to take care of others as well. And

1:45:06.640 --> 1:45:09.680
<v Speaker 2>so it's just that's where it is.

1:45:18.320 --> 1:45:21.120
<v Speaker 1>Okay, you don't have any children, and you do have

1:45:21.240 --> 1:45:26.040
<v Speaker 1>relatives when you are gone, you want to spend it

1:45:26.080 --> 1:45:28.680
<v Speaker 1>before you're gone, You want to leave some relatives. You

1:45:28.680 --> 1:45:31.640
<v Speaker 1>want to have a foundation. You know, what's your perspective.

1:45:32.479 --> 1:45:37.200
<v Speaker 2>I I know one person who used to say to me,

1:45:37.640 --> 1:45:42.679
<v Speaker 2>a shroud has no pockets, and then I have another

1:45:42.880 --> 1:45:48.519
<v Speaker 2>person who says to me, what the fuck do you

1:45:48.840 --> 1:45:52.400
<v Speaker 2>work so hard and so long for to not enjoy

1:45:52.439 --> 1:45:56.440
<v Speaker 2>it now? And I'm just caught between those two viewpoints.

1:45:56.520 --> 1:46:00.160
<v Speaker 2>You know, I'm just I've just always found it hard

1:46:00.200 --> 1:46:06.960
<v Speaker 2>to figure it out, and so I just kind of

1:46:08.400 --> 1:46:11.080
<v Speaker 2>don't do anything about it. I just kind of try

1:46:11.120 --> 1:46:17.120
<v Speaker 2>to live life in a smart way and try to

1:46:17.160 --> 1:46:23.080
<v Speaker 2>be there for those who need me and just and

1:46:23.600 --> 1:46:26.280
<v Speaker 2>be grateful. Really, I know I've said that a few

1:46:26.280 --> 1:46:28.960
<v Speaker 2>times during this interview, but it's true.

1:46:29.280 --> 1:46:32.880
<v Speaker 1>Okay, there are also royalties on the recordings. Did you

1:46:32.920 --> 1:46:38.920
<v Speaker 1>sell those two? Oh? Yes? Okay, So at this point

1:46:38.960 --> 1:46:44.000
<v Speaker 1>in time forgetting wanting to do you have to work?

1:46:44.160 --> 1:46:46.679
<v Speaker 1>You say, well, god, you know I got mortgage payments,

1:46:46.680 --> 1:46:48.280
<v Speaker 1>I wanted to put on an addition to the house.

1:46:48.320 --> 1:46:50.880
<v Speaker 1>I better book a tour or is that all worked

1:46:50.880 --> 1:46:52.880
<v Speaker 1>out where you can do what you want to without

1:46:52.880 --> 1:46:54.960
<v Speaker 1>worrying about financial constraints.

1:46:55.320 --> 1:46:59.559
<v Speaker 2>That's probably the greatest gift is that what I feel

1:46:59.560 --> 1:47:04.280
<v Speaker 2>like it is enabled me to do is to do

1:47:04.479 --> 1:47:10.479
<v Speaker 2>projects that aren't based on the transaction or a return,

1:47:10.600 --> 1:47:16.439
<v Speaker 2>that that the the project itself is worth it if

1:47:16.479 --> 1:47:20.519
<v Speaker 2>I want to do it artistically. And so in that way,

1:47:20.880 --> 1:47:25.160
<v Speaker 2>it feels like total freedom, and it's not based on

1:47:25.560 --> 1:47:29.160
<v Speaker 2>you know, how much it earns or how it gets paid.

1:47:28.920 --> 1:47:31.760
<v Speaker 1>Back, and in terms of playing live, how much you

1:47:31.840 --> 1:47:33.519
<v Speaker 1>want to work?

1:47:34.400 --> 1:47:37.760
<v Speaker 2>Well, I love I you know all the you know,

1:47:37.920 --> 1:47:40.479
<v Speaker 2>work keeps us young, it keeps us alive, all those

1:47:40.479 --> 1:47:46.360
<v Speaker 2>things I I want to. I want to tour and

1:47:46.439 --> 1:47:50.320
<v Speaker 2>work and write and make music and make songs and

1:47:50.360 --> 1:47:54.160
<v Speaker 2>record and all of those things until i don't want

1:47:54.200 --> 1:47:56.479
<v Speaker 2>to anymore. But I'm just nowhere near that.

1:47:56.720 --> 1:47:59.040
<v Speaker 1>It's just let me be a little bit more specific.

1:47:59.080 --> 1:48:02.360
<v Speaker 1>I didn't ask question. There are people who work forty

1:48:02.439 --> 1:48:04.400
<v Speaker 1>days a year. There are people who work two hundred

1:48:04.439 --> 1:48:06.880
<v Speaker 1>and seventy days a year. I'm talking about on the road.

1:48:07.479 --> 1:48:09.320
<v Speaker 1>What's the number that works for you.

1:48:10.680 --> 1:48:13.879
<v Speaker 2>It's different every year. It's different based on the project,

1:48:13.960 --> 1:48:20.240
<v Speaker 2>I think, and it's different based on you know, whether

1:48:20.360 --> 1:48:24.280
<v Speaker 2>my other hand needs an operation or I need to

1:48:24.320 --> 1:48:27.400
<v Speaker 2>get my shoulder replaced, and you know, just all the things.

1:48:27.439 --> 1:48:32.080
<v Speaker 2>So I would you know, every year is different. But

1:48:33.200 --> 1:48:36.800
<v Speaker 2>I will say that over you know, over time, the

1:48:36.880 --> 1:48:39.360
<v Speaker 2>tradition to like go out in the summer, for example,

1:48:40.760 --> 1:48:43.160
<v Speaker 2>it just doesn't feel like summer unless I'm out there,

1:48:44.439 --> 1:48:48.400
<v Speaker 2>like playing a wolf trap for example, in every August

1:48:48.720 --> 1:48:53.360
<v Speaker 2>just feels like home. And it's I have so much

1:48:53.479 --> 1:48:56.760
<v Speaker 2>joy from that, and I have so I get so

1:48:56.960 --> 1:49:01.760
<v Speaker 2>much from I mean, this is the God's truth. It's

1:49:01.880 --> 1:49:06.040
<v Speaker 2>so much from the connection with people.

1:49:06.680 --> 1:49:06.960
<v Speaker 1>You know.

1:49:07.080 --> 1:49:10.720
<v Speaker 2>It's like it's not just plug in and play and

1:49:10.760 --> 1:49:14.679
<v Speaker 2>say a few witty things if you're lucky. It's about

1:49:15.040 --> 1:49:20.599
<v Speaker 2>feeling connected and in community with people. And I've never

1:49:20.680 --> 1:49:23.120
<v Speaker 2>felt like I needed that more than I need right

1:49:23.160 --> 1:49:25.519
<v Speaker 2>now in terms of the shit show that we're in

1:49:25.520 --> 1:49:29.880
<v Speaker 2>in this country and what life feels like. It's like

1:49:30.040 --> 1:49:32.600
<v Speaker 2>I need, I need to feel like I'm with like

1:49:32.680 --> 1:49:33.439
<v Speaker 2>minded souls.

1:49:35.120 --> 1:49:38.400
<v Speaker 1>Okay, just going back to your recording career in its

1:49:38.400 --> 1:49:41.559
<v Speaker 1>early days, what was it like when you had a hit?

1:49:45.640 --> 1:49:50.400
<v Speaker 2>Like it was are you kidding me? Are you joking?

1:49:52.040 --> 1:49:57.040
<v Speaker 2>Is this a joke? Like yeah, it's like that's to

1:49:57.120 --> 1:50:00.720
<v Speaker 2>this day, That's how I feel. It's not you know,

1:50:00.800 --> 1:50:06.320
<v Speaker 2>I'm not trying to be overly humble or crazy. I

1:50:06.479 --> 1:50:09.759
<v Speaker 2>just it's like it just never was anything I ever

1:50:10.120 --> 1:50:12.040
<v Speaker 2>ever ever imagined.

1:50:12.160 --> 1:50:12.920
<v Speaker 1>What happened to me?

1:50:14.600 --> 1:50:15.520
<v Speaker 2>Just bonkers.

1:50:16.040 --> 1:50:19.839
<v Speaker 1>And then you're a private, as you put it, hermit.

1:50:21.000 --> 1:50:23.240
<v Speaker 1>Certainly for a while, the area every time you turn,

1:50:23.320 --> 1:50:25.479
<v Speaker 1>you bumped into you were a story about it. What

1:50:25.560 --> 1:50:27.000
<v Speaker 1>was that like for you? Emotionally?

1:50:27.880 --> 1:50:31.880
<v Speaker 2>I I have always had, I continue to have, and

1:50:31.960 --> 1:50:36.040
<v Speaker 2>I certainly had it back then, the most awkward and

1:50:36.240 --> 1:50:43.120
<v Speaker 2>uncomfortable relationship with success or fame or whatever you want

1:50:43.160 --> 1:50:48.439
<v Speaker 2>to call it. Just it's just been so you know,

1:50:48.600 --> 1:50:52.880
<v Speaker 2>I'm just oh my god, just the contortions I would

1:50:53.320 --> 1:50:56.080
<v Speaker 2>put myself through just having to do meet and greets

1:50:56.200 --> 1:51:03.200
<v Speaker 2>and you know, you know, walking backstage before the show

1:51:03.240 --> 1:51:06.320
<v Speaker 2>and having fifty people lined up in the radio stations

1:51:06.360 --> 1:51:09.559
<v Speaker 2>and all that. It's just like I just wasn't cut

1:51:09.600 --> 1:51:12.439
<v Speaker 2>out for it. I was just I mean, I I

1:51:12.479 --> 1:51:15.280
<v Speaker 2>love meeting people, but I'm just not a you know

1:51:15.280 --> 1:51:16.400
<v Speaker 2>what I mean, I'm not.

1:51:18.040 --> 1:51:20.320
<v Speaker 1>You don't want anything superficial. If you want to meet him,

1:51:20.360 --> 1:51:21.400
<v Speaker 1>you want to meet him for real.

1:51:22.320 --> 1:51:25.639
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I guess, I guess it's just it was just hard.

1:51:25.960 --> 1:51:28.280
<v Speaker 2>It was always hard. But also it's just like that

1:51:28.400 --> 1:51:32.559
<v Speaker 2>white hot light of attention that's on you, and I'm

1:51:32.600 --> 1:51:36.479
<v Speaker 2>just in the grocery store trying to buy groceries, and

1:51:36.520 --> 1:51:39.679
<v Speaker 2>people would come up to me, and ninety nine point

1:51:39.840 --> 1:51:42.519
<v Speaker 2>nine percent of the people are so nice and so

1:51:42.760 --> 1:51:46.000
<v Speaker 2>lovely and so kind and they just want to say hi,

1:51:46.240 --> 1:51:51.320
<v Speaker 2>you know, but I'm just like, whoa, what just happened?

1:51:51.400 --> 1:51:57.040
<v Speaker 2>You know? Just you know, it's just it's not something

1:51:57.080 --> 1:52:03.280
<v Speaker 2>I ever. It's like, I remember there's an Ann Tyler.

1:52:03.479 --> 1:52:06.719
<v Speaker 2>That Ann Tyler, I forget. I thought it was Ann Tyler,

1:52:07.200 --> 1:52:10.000
<v Speaker 2>but she said I had some paraphrasing. I had a

1:52:10.080 --> 1:52:14.839
<v Speaker 2>misunderstanding about fame. I always imagined it was me entering

1:52:14.960 --> 1:52:19.160
<v Speaker 2>other people's lives, not there entering mine, And I thought

1:52:19.200 --> 1:52:20.960
<v Speaker 2>that I related to that.

1:52:22.880 --> 1:52:29.840
<v Speaker 1>Okay, when commercial success declines, how do you cope with

1:52:29.880 --> 1:52:32.800
<v Speaker 1>that natitude? You feel like the label has moved on,

1:52:33.120 --> 1:52:36.160
<v Speaker 1>or the world has moved on, or it's unjust or

1:52:36.200 --> 1:52:38.400
<v Speaker 1>it's time. What was that like?

1:52:39.439 --> 1:52:43.800
<v Speaker 2>I remember very clearly a record that I had made

1:52:44.040 --> 1:52:48.479
<v Speaker 2>and submitted to Sony, and they came back after I

1:52:48.479 --> 1:52:53.360
<v Speaker 2>had submitted the songs, and they just there was one song,

1:52:53.400 --> 1:52:59.680
<v Speaker 2>for example, where we had it was Oh my gosh,

1:52:59.840 --> 1:53:07.000
<v Speaker 2>it was an instrument, an electric citar. It was just

1:53:07.120 --> 1:53:10.200
<v Speaker 2>like this cool sound, and they're like, you have to

1:53:10.240 --> 1:53:17.040
<v Speaker 2>take that off? What huh? And they're like, you have

1:53:17.120 --> 1:53:19.920
<v Speaker 2>to take that off. Oh, and you need to take

1:53:19.960 --> 1:53:22.120
<v Speaker 2>the horns off of that other song too, And I

1:53:22.200 --> 1:53:26.240
<v Speaker 2>was like why and they say, because no one's going

1:53:26.320 --> 1:53:31.000
<v Speaker 2>to play it on country radio. And I'm like, says,

1:53:31.040 --> 1:53:36.160
<v Speaker 2>who I mean, just based on just because you woke

1:53:36.240 --> 1:53:39.719
<v Speaker 2>up this morning and think that, or just well research,

1:53:40.360 --> 1:53:42.760
<v Speaker 2>they say, And it was like, you know, that was

1:53:42.800 --> 1:53:46.280
<v Speaker 2>my introduction to oh this. We have research groups and

1:53:46.560 --> 1:53:49.439
<v Speaker 2>you know, we played them six seconds of a song

1:53:49.479 --> 1:53:51.200
<v Speaker 2>and they tell us whether it's a thumbs up or

1:53:51.240 --> 1:53:53.880
<v Speaker 2>a thumbs down based on six seconds or whatever it was.

1:53:53.960 --> 1:53:57.200
<v Speaker 2>And I was just like, this is so crazy. And

1:53:57.240 --> 1:53:59.400
<v Speaker 2>then and also just like, wait a minute, I just

1:53:59.439 --> 1:54:01.839
<v Speaker 2>heard a Reaba mamac and Tire song that has horns

1:54:01.840 --> 1:54:03.360
<v Speaker 2>on it. Why are you telling me I can't have

1:54:03.400 --> 1:54:06.559
<v Speaker 2>horns on it? It just there was no answers to that,

1:54:07.439 --> 1:54:10.240
<v Speaker 2>and so it got kind of just like in the

1:54:10.280 --> 1:54:13.640
<v Speaker 2>weeds that way a lot, and it just felt like

1:54:14.160 --> 1:54:18.360
<v Speaker 2>this isn't this. You know, I'm so grateful for everything

1:54:18.640 --> 1:54:22.479
<v Speaker 2>they did for me and everything that we accomplished together.

1:54:22.600 --> 1:54:26.200
<v Speaker 2>It's like a marriage, you know, but then it started

1:54:26.240 --> 1:54:31.160
<v Speaker 2>to feel like we weren't getting along, and it felt

1:54:31.280 --> 1:54:34.800
<v Speaker 2>right to finally not re up with them after it

1:54:34.840 --> 1:54:38.000
<v Speaker 2>was like twenty years or something, and it felt.

1:54:37.720 --> 1:54:38.400
<v Speaker 1>It was sad.

1:54:39.040 --> 1:54:42.720
<v Speaker 2>I was really sad. But I also felt like, you know,

1:54:43.040 --> 1:54:48.160
<v Speaker 2>we all have chapters. Life is about chapters, and I

1:54:48.200 --> 1:54:50.800
<v Speaker 2>was ready for the next chapter. So I didn't feel

1:54:53.000 --> 1:54:57.560
<v Speaker 2>I didn't mourn that in a It wasn't it wasn't debilitating.

1:54:57.640 --> 1:54:59.560
<v Speaker 2>It just felt like it was time to be brave

1:54:59.600 --> 1:55:00.840
<v Speaker 2>and go to the next chapter.

1:55:02.680 --> 1:55:07.240
<v Speaker 1>So what about the world today, Well, what do you think?

1:55:09.040 --> 1:55:13.920
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I'll make it very short going on the record. Yeah, yes,

1:55:14.040 --> 1:55:19.080
<v Speaker 1>I believe that Trump is an autocrat dictator. I would

1:55:19.200 --> 1:55:21.480
<v Speaker 1>like to see change. I do not believe in the

1:55:21.560 --> 1:55:25.800
<v Speaker 1>system anymore. System has had some victories as we speak,

1:55:25.880 --> 1:55:29.960
<v Speaker 1>but I don't believe in it, and anybody who's from

1:55:30.080 --> 1:55:33.280
<v Speaker 1>the older generations isn't really going to do anything because

1:55:33.280 --> 1:55:36.000
<v Speaker 1>they don't want to put their money at risk. So

1:55:36.040 --> 1:55:39.440
<v Speaker 1>the only change I am waiting for an Arab spring

1:55:39.560 --> 1:55:44.760
<v Speaker 1>moment from Generation Z who the government and the institutions

1:55:44.760 --> 1:55:46.280
<v Speaker 1>are completely out of touch. I mean, at root, you

1:55:46.360 --> 1:55:50.160
<v Speaker 1>have incommitted quality. In addition to the government, and I

1:55:50.240 --> 1:55:53.440
<v Speaker 1>would hope then, because I have no hope that through

1:55:53.560 --> 1:55:57.560
<v Speaker 1>evolution in the process, it will work out.

1:56:00.360 --> 1:56:05.920
<v Speaker 2>I don't disagree with really anything you said. I was

1:56:05.960 --> 1:56:08.200
<v Speaker 2>thinking about, well, I think about it all the time.

1:56:08.240 --> 1:56:15.360
<v Speaker 2>But like I was listening to a podcast today where

1:56:18.560 --> 1:56:23.120
<v Speaker 2>one of the hosts was talking about how she had

1:56:23.920 --> 1:56:25.840
<v Speaker 2>Did you ever listen to the Political gab Fest?

1:56:26.360 --> 1:56:27.120
<v Speaker 1>No podcast?

1:56:27.480 --> 1:56:32.200
<v Speaker 2>Okay, it's great. And Emily Basilon, who's a writer, she's

1:56:32.200 --> 1:56:33.920
<v Speaker 2>a teacher at Yale, but she's also a writer for

1:56:33.920 --> 1:56:36.040
<v Speaker 2>the New York Times. So she just published this article

1:56:36.120 --> 1:56:39.040
<v Speaker 2>with one of her colleagues last week that was like

1:56:39.080 --> 1:56:46.200
<v Speaker 2>an oral history of that. They interviewed a really like

1:56:47.280 --> 1:56:51.480
<v Speaker 2>all these prime they had They were lawyers who had

1:56:51.520 --> 1:56:55.560
<v Speaker 2>worked for the Justice Justice Department, but they had either

1:56:55.600 --> 1:56:59.440
<v Speaker 2>been fired or they left on their own accord whatever.

1:56:59.680 --> 1:57:02.200
<v Speaker 2>You know, there's a huge amount of people who have left.

1:57:03.000 --> 1:57:08.320
<v Speaker 2>And they were talking about when Trump is finally out

1:57:08.320 --> 1:57:14.120
<v Speaker 2>of office, whatever that looks like. And she was saying

1:57:14.320 --> 1:57:18.200
<v Speaker 2>from her standpoint as a lawyer that these were people

1:57:18.200 --> 1:57:22.760
<v Speaker 2>who these were their dream jobs. They loved their work,

1:57:22.880 --> 1:57:26.120
<v Speaker 2>they loved what they did, and they believed in the mission.

1:57:27.920 --> 1:57:32.320
<v Speaker 2>And then the conversation was about is it possible once

1:57:32.840 --> 1:57:41.480
<v Speaker 2>this administration is over, assuming a democratic administration comes in,

1:57:41.840 --> 1:57:44.000
<v Speaker 2>is there going to be tit for tat? Is there

1:57:44.040 --> 1:57:47.760
<v Speaker 2>going to be another sort of upheaval throwing people out,

1:57:48.520 --> 1:57:52.600
<v Speaker 2>or is it possible to build back not to use

1:57:52.600 --> 1:57:58.000
<v Speaker 2>that phrase, but to reconstruct what was so great and

1:57:58.120 --> 1:58:04.520
<v Speaker 2>meaningful and important about the Justice Department again, And her

1:58:04.840 --> 1:58:07.680
<v Speaker 2>sense from all these people that she interviewed was that

1:58:07.720 --> 1:58:10.960
<v Speaker 2>it's not possible. I believe that's what she said. And

1:58:11.040 --> 1:58:15.160
<v Speaker 2>I just you think about that, you frame, you use

1:58:15.200 --> 1:58:18.800
<v Speaker 2>that sort of question and apply it to other aspects

1:58:18.800 --> 1:58:24.600
<v Speaker 2>of our culture and our government and everything, and it's like,

1:58:24.880 --> 1:58:33.040
<v Speaker 2>I like, on my worst days, I like you say,

1:58:33.120 --> 1:58:35.200
<v Speaker 2>you know it's going to be about evolution and gen

1:58:35.280 --> 1:58:40.520
<v Speaker 2>z and all this. I don't know how we regain

1:58:40.640 --> 1:58:48.000
<v Speaker 2>trust in institutions and how we rid ourselves of the

1:58:48.200 --> 1:58:53.560
<v Speaker 2>cancers of ideology that are out there and driving you know,

1:58:55.520 --> 1:58:58.680
<v Speaker 2>just oh my god, just the announcement today that the

1:58:58.760 --> 1:59:04.040
<v Speaker 2>CDC has posted on his website scientifically false claims. You

1:59:04.080 --> 1:59:10.760
<v Speaker 2>know that ideology overrides evidence, you know, scientific evidence. I mean,

1:59:10.800 --> 1:59:12.960
<v Speaker 2>it's just how do we fix that effort? You know,

1:59:13.000 --> 1:59:15.720
<v Speaker 2>how are we ever going to fix that. It's a

1:59:15.800 --> 1:59:19.520
<v Speaker 2>rhetorical question. I just I don't know, and I fear

1:59:20.560 --> 1:59:26.720
<v Speaker 2>and grieve for our country and its institutions and most

1:59:26.800 --> 1:59:29.839
<v Speaker 2>of all the American people. It's crazy.

1:59:31.480 --> 1:59:33.160
<v Speaker 1>Well, I think we're going to leave it at that.

1:59:33.640 --> 1:59:35.480
<v Speaker 1>I certainly could talk, but then we'll go on for

1:59:35.480 --> 1:59:36.520
<v Speaker 1>an hour about this.

1:59:36.880 --> 1:59:38.800
<v Speaker 2>What an uplifting thing to leave it?

1:59:39.280 --> 1:59:43.160
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I guess for me, I'm reinforcing something I

1:59:43.200 --> 1:59:48.480
<v Speaker 1>said earlier incommun equality and the generation gap. I'm a

1:59:48.560 --> 1:59:53.520
<v Speaker 1>news hound. You cannot read a publication for educated people

1:59:54.000 --> 1:59:58.160
<v Speaker 1>that does not constantly be rate technology and thinks the

1:59:58.280 --> 2:00:03.000
<v Speaker 1>smartphone is the devil. We are here speaking across the

2:00:03.080 --> 2:00:06.680
<v Speaker 1>country as results of technology. I grew up in an

2:00:06.720 --> 2:00:11.040
<v Speaker 1>era where television was a devil, people still watched it, right,

2:00:11.200 --> 2:00:15.320
<v Speaker 1>So until you come into the present, and then of

2:00:15.360 --> 2:00:18.640
<v Speaker 1>course the next question. I mean, it's as simple to you.

2:00:18.720 --> 2:00:22.920
<v Speaker 1>One can simply say, there are everyone is getting their

2:00:23.000 --> 2:00:29.160
<v Speaker 1>news they want whatever, as opposed to one cohesive channel

2:00:29.440 --> 2:00:31.200
<v Speaker 1>or as you know, a few channels like in the

2:00:31.280 --> 2:00:37.240
<v Speaker 1>old days of networks. But the underlying problem of living

2:00:37.280 --> 2:00:41.920
<v Speaker 1>in a tower of Babbel society. Listen, the legal system

2:00:41.960 --> 2:00:45.240
<v Speaker 1>is always going to be behind technology and you just

2:00:45.320 --> 2:00:49.480
<v Speaker 1>can't demonize this. But you can't. This is like Spotify.

2:00:49.520 --> 2:00:51.720
<v Speaker 1>I don't want to make this about Spotify money.

2:00:51.840 --> 2:00:56.280
<v Speaker 2>Oh God, please please evil Spotify. Okay, no, but yeah.

2:00:56.400 --> 2:01:01.760
<v Speaker 1>Prior to Spotify, we had the record companies saying P

2:01:01.920 --> 2:01:07.440
<v Speaker 1>two P was theft and revenues were going down. Spotify

2:01:07.680 --> 2:01:10.919
<v Speaker 1>said we are going to get ahead of the consumer.

2:01:11.120 --> 2:01:13.920
<v Speaker 1>I haven't used this analogy in a long time. You

2:01:13.960 --> 2:01:19.720
<v Speaker 1>grow up and you watch Westerns. The robbers come in

2:01:19.800 --> 2:01:23.840
<v Speaker 1>and take money from the bank and the elders town

2:01:23.880 --> 2:01:27.840
<v Speaker 1>elders to get together. They don't say, you know, we're

2:01:27.880 --> 2:01:31.280
<v Speaker 1>gonna build a really big megaphone and put it on

2:01:31.320 --> 2:01:33.960
<v Speaker 1>top of the bank and yell bring the money back.

2:01:35.200 --> 2:01:38.080
<v Speaker 1>They always say the same thing in every one of

2:01:38.120 --> 2:01:43.400
<v Speaker 1>these movies. We're gonna cut them off at the pass. So,

2:01:43.960 --> 2:01:47.880
<v Speaker 1>without making about who's making money from Spotify here or other,

2:01:48.480 --> 2:01:52.120
<v Speaker 1>it was ahead of most people's thinking, well, you know

2:01:52.200 --> 2:01:53.760
<v Speaker 1>what if I'm out you know in tim Buck too,

2:01:53.880 --> 2:01:55.760
<v Speaker 1>and I don't know electricity, well you can, you know,

2:01:56.280 --> 2:01:59.800
<v Speaker 1>you can down those those things. So it got ahead

2:01:59.840 --> 2:02:03.839
<v Speaker 1>of the consumer. The only they way all these issues

2:02:03.880 --> 2:02:06.920
<v Speaker 1>work if there's some deep thinkers say, listen, where we

2:02:07.000 --> 2:02:11.959
<v Speaker 1>are is chaos. Let's go beyond and say let's corral

2:02:12.040 --> 2:02:14.720
<v Speaker 1>the people into this new thing. Instead, you have people

2:02:14.960 --> 2:02:18.160
<v Speaker 1>from our demo just saying, you know, God, you just

2:02:18.200 --> 2:02:21.680
<v Speaker 1>gotta put down the phone. I mean, this makes me crazy.

2:02:21.680 --> 2:02:24.600
<v Speaker 1>There's nothing better than the phone. I mean connect Listen.

2:02:25.440 --> 2:02:28.480
<v Speaker 1>I would not call I would not call myself a hermit,

2:02:29.040 --> 2:02:32.160
<v Speaker 1>but I would not say that I connect with all people. Okay,

2:02:32.880 --> 2:02:36.160
<v Speaker 1>And as a result of the Internet, I can connect

2:02:36.160 --> 2:02:38.200
<v Speaker 1>with like minded people. It's the greatest thing that ever

2:02:38.280 --> 2:02:38.800
<v Speaker 1>happened for me.

2:02:39.600 --> 2:02:42.320
<v Speaker 2>I am not a luddite in any way, shape or form.

2:02:43.000 --> 2:02:49.960
<v Speaker 2>I love what I have been able to learn, engage

2:02:50.000 --> 2:02:57.800
<v Speaker 2>in discover bathe in choral music from everywhere, you know,

2:02:58.000 --> 2:03:02.040
<v Speaker 2>just all the things that technology allows me to do.

2:03:02.440 --> 2:03:04.600
<v Speaker 2>But this is what I do say at the end

2:03:04.640 --> 2:03:08.520
<v Speaker 2>of shows, which is, and it's not meant to sound ceremony,

2:03:08.760 --> 2:03:12.080
<v Speaker 2>but this is. But I do want to I would

2:03:12.120 --> 2:03:14.160
<v Speaker 2>be happier to leave on this note than.

2:03:14.240 --> 2:03:17.120
<v Speaker 1>The Okay, then we'll make this the final statement.

2:03:16.800 --> 2:03:20.320
<v Speaker 2>Okay, which is you know, there we are in this

2:03:20.440 --> 2:03:23.560
<v Speaker 2>room with all these people that have gathered for a show,

2:03:23.760 --> 2:03:25.560
<v Speaker 2>and that's the end of the show and what and

2:03:25.600 --> 2:03:29.160
<v Speaker 2>I have one more song to sing, And I say,

2:03:29.200 --> 2:03:34.800
<v Speaker 2>you know, we've all got these devices in our back pockets.

2:03:34.920 --> 2:03:37.640
<v Speaker 2>And the truth is is that you can pull that

2:03:37.720 --> 2:03:40.560
<v Speaker 2>device out and in the wink of an eye, you

2:03:40.640 --> 2:03:46.120
<v Speaker 2>can you can find any book, any painting, any poem,

2:03:46.440 --> 2:03:50.160
<v Speaker 2>any passage of music, any movie. You can find your

2:03:50.280 --> 2:03:57.120
<v Speaker 2>heart's desire on that device in seconds. But in my opinion,

2:03:57.240 --> 2:03:59.960
<v Speaker 2>there'll never be a substitute for what it feels like

2:04:00.360 --> 2:04:04.480
<v Speaker 2>to be all together in this room going on a

2:04:04.560 --> 2:04:08.880
<v Speaker 2>musical journey together. And so to me, it's great to

2:04:08.920 --> 2:04:11.960
<v Speaker 2>have the device. It's great when you're walking out the

2:04:12.000 --> 2:04:16.520
<v Speaker 2>door whatever, But this experience right here, there's never going

2:04:16.600 --> 2:04:19.440
<v Speaker 2>to be a substitute for it, and I for one

2:04:19.720 --> 2:04:21.400
<v Speaker 2>celebrate that well.

2:04:22.280 --> 2:04:27.040
<v Speaker 1>Although you're making that statement, that's what has happened. Experience

2:04:27.160 --> 2:04:31.800
<v Speaker 1>is king without making about where artists earn their living.

2:04:31.880 --> 2:04:35.360
<v Speaker 1>Forget that people want to go to the show. They

2:04:35.400 --> 2:04:38.440
<v Speaker 1>want to have that experience more than ever, And certainly

2:04:38.480 --> 2:04:42.440
<v Speaker 1>studies have told us younger generations are more into experiences

2:04:42.920 --> 2:04:46.240
<v Speaker 1>than things. I guess you know, I agree with what

2:04:46.280 --> 2:04:48.680
<v Speaker 1>you're saying, and it's all reasonable just as long as

2:04:48.720 --> 2:04:49.919
<v Speaker 1>people don't make it either.

2:04:49.880 --> 2:04:54.480
<v Speaker 2>Or yeah, no, I just I want both. I absolutely

2:04:54.520 --> 2:04:57.560
<v Speaker 2>want both. I want all the things that the device

2:04:57.600 --> 2:05:02.960
<v Speaker 2>will bring me because I've gained so much. But at

2:05:02.960 --> 2:05:05.560
<v Speaker 2>the same time, I also want that experience. I want

2:05:05.600 --> 2:05:08.480
<v Speaker 2>that community, I want that connection. I want it to

2:05:08.520 --> 2:05:11.120
<v Speaker 2>be the antidote to the device.

2:05:12.400 --> 2:05:16.680
<v Speaker 1>Bottom bing, you get the last word, Mary Chapin, thanks

2:05:16.720 --> 2:05:19.080
<v Speaker 1>for taking the time to speak with me and my audience.

2:05:19.120 --> 2:05:20.960
<v Speaker 1>I really appreciate it.

2:05:20.960 --> 2:05:23.320
<v Speaker 2>It's a pleasure. Thank you for chatting with me.

2:05:23.960 --> 2:05:26.800
<v Speaker 1>Until next time. This is Bob left six