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Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Such a podcast.

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Speaker 1: My guest today is Mary Chapin Carpenter, who has a

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Speaker 1: new album, Personal History. Mary Chapin, what was the inspiration

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Speaker 1: for this album?

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Speaker 2: Boy, that's a giant first question. Well, let's see, there

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Speaker 2: was not one subject or topic or emotion or inspiration

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Speaker 2: for the whole album, but rather it was a look

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Speaker 2: back at life, sort of trying to take stock of

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Speaker 2: a life's work, with the idea of course that there's

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Speaker 2: much more life to come. And it was about time

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Speaker 2: and place and the importance of memory and all of

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Speaker 2: those things.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So in today's world where you're your own record company,

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Speaker 1: how do you decide to make a record? Do you

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Speaker 1: say I want to make a record to come up

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Speaker 1: with tunes, or do you know, write tunes, say it's

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Speaker 1: an album, or you sit down and say I want

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Speaker 1: to write an album.

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Speaker 2: I think I've always been pretty deliberate about things, and

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Speaker 2: I've always also been a slow worker. And so if

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Speaker 2: I look back at all of the records I've made,

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Speaker 2: it seems to be on average about three or four

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Speaker 2: years between records. And it would be easy enough to say, oh,

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Speaker 2: it's you know, each record is sort of a document

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Speaker 2: of life, life between records, but I think this one

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Speaker 2: stretches way the lens, if you will, of this one

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Speaker 2: stretches way way back, and I can talk about some

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Speaker 2: of the songs that really go as far back as

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Speaker 2: being a teenager and the things that were going on

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Speaker 2: in my life at that time. I always think of

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Speaker 2: personal history when I read like a column in the

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Speaker 2: New Yorker or wherever I've seen that banner. It's specific,

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Speaker 2: but at the same time, it's very wide open. And

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Speaker 2: that title gave me this sense of possibility to just

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Speaker 2: talk about so much, or rather write and sing about

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Speaker 2: so much.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's go a little bit more micro. You're cleaning

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Speaker 1: the house, you're driving for groceries. Did you come up

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Speaker 1: with the idle first? Or you know, how did this start?

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Speaker 2: I can be very specific with you about that. The

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Speaker 2: title came along when we were in those first months

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Speaker 2: of the pandemic and we were all staying inside of

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Speaker 2: our homes, and I like, I think a lot of

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Speaker 2: people were spending a lot of time thinking like, Oh

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Speaker 2: Jesus Christ, what is going to happen? When will we

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Speaker 2: be able to resume our lives? Again, when will I

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Speaker 2: feel like myself again? Because that time I can only

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Speaker 2: speak for myself, but that time was so isolating and

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Speaker 2: full of fear, and I was not experiencing loss personally,

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Speaker 2: but I certainly knew a lot of people who were,

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Speaker 2: and it was just so much to think about, so

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Speaker 2: much to ponder, so much to worry about. And so

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Speaker 2: I started writing this song that ended up being the

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Speaker 2: titular song of the record, and the first song that

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Speaker 2: I finished that felt like, ah, I think I'm beginning

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Speaker 2: something here. And the song was called what Did You Miss?

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Speaker 2: And it was taking stock of the things that I

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Speaker 2: missed in the present, while at the same time going

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Speaker 2: backwards and remembering things from being a much younger person,

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Speaker 2: and kind of riffing off of that. And at the

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Speaker 2: end the last verse, I refer to all of these

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Speaker 2: songs that have accumulated over the last thirty forty years

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Speaker 2: as a personal history. And that was to me the

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Speaker 2: obvious title.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's talk about the pandemic. I had immune issues,

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Speaker 1: so I was locked up longer than the average person.

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Speaker 1: But you know, they shut the doors in the middle

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Speaker 1: of March twenty twenty. We really didn't know what was

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Speaker 1: going on, we paid close attention, came out the other side.

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Speaker 1: I am positively shocked how things are different after the pandemic. Hey,

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Speaker 1: I got older, which of course everybody does, but your

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Speaker 1: perspective changes, and even lifestyle things in terms of people

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Speaker 1: wanting to go out to lunch whatever. It ended up

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Speaker 1: being a bigger deal than I thought. So how did

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Speaker 1: you experience.

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Speaker 2: How did I experience being sort of locked in?

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Speaker 1: No, I was going to ask the other question first. Now,

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Speaker 1: looking back, what do you think about this time? Was

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Speaker 1: it just a blip on the radar screen? Or do

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Speaker 1: you find there's definitely a before and after and your

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Speaker 1: perspective and feelings are different.

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Speaker 2: Oh, for me, it's definitely a before and after. I

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Speaker 2: do remember thinking in those first six months or so

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Speaker 2: that I would never ever again complain about being in

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Speaker 2: a crowded airport. Other I felt so starved of company

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Speaker 2: of people. Of And yet, and the thing about that

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Speaker 2: that's kind of funny is that I think of myself

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Speaker 2: as a hermit anyway. So I am not a very

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Speaker 2: social person. I live in a very rural area. I

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Speaker 2: don't see a lot of people. And yet, and as

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Speaker 2: I said to one of my sisters, when we started

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Speaker 2: staying home, and my sisters and I we'd have a

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Speaker 2: call with each other once or twice a month or

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Speaker 2: week every other week, and one of my sisters says,

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Speaker 2: how are you doing? How are you doing?

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Speaker 1: You know?

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Speaker 2: And this is she's talking, of course, to me, the hermit.

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Speaker 2: And I couldn't help it. I said, I feel as

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Speaker 2: if I've been training for this my entire life, you know.

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Speaker 2: And I did. I felt like, oh, this is fine.

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Speaker 2: I'm handling this. I'm handling this. But you know, that

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Speaker 2: was a feeling of the moment, and it certainly didn't

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Speaker 2: last for six months. And I don't I don't have

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Speaker 2: a health issue like you did, Bob, to be very

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Speaker 2: careful with. But I personally did not feel safe going

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Speaker 2: out and being and traveling and resuming work for a

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Speaker 2: really long time. And even so now, I mean, it

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Speaker 2: definitely affects me. I somebody sneezes twenty feet away and

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Speaker 2: I'm just out of there. You know. It's just it's

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Speaker 2: not something I take for granted.

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Speaker 1: So tell me about being a hermit.

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Speaker 2: Oh gosh, how long do you have?

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Speaker 1: I have plenty of time lay it out.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I've always been I've always been a shy person.

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Speaker 2: I've always been a quiet person, and I've always been

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Speaker 2: sort of I think cursed on a certain level, with

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Speaker 2: a stubborn loneliness that is just there even when I'm

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Speaker 2: in a room full of people, and in a way,

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Speaker 2: I just prefer It's like I'd rather be my own company.

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Speaker 2: In that way. I have a few very close friends,

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Speaker 2: but we all live in different places. And the life

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Speaker 2: that I have and have had for the last fifteen

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Speaker 2: years or so, has allowed me to indulge that hermit

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Speaker 2: life because I live, as I said, in a very

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Speaker 2: rural area and it suits me. I don't know what

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Speaker 2: it is about my personality that has led me to this,

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Speaker 2: but here I am.

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Speaker 1: How much of it is social anxiety?

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Speaker 2: Oh gosh, probably a lot, I imagine. I mean, I

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Speaker 2: can't break it down in percentages, but I'm sure that

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Speaker 2: figures into it. I just I don't make small talk

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Speaker 2: very easily. It's not that I, you know, abhor it.

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Speaker 2: It's just I'm not good at it. And you know,

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Speaker 2: days can go by where I don't talk to a

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Speaker 2: single person except maybe the guy at the checkout stand,

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Speaker 2: and sometimes it really gets to me, but other times

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Speaker 2: it just as I said, it seems to suit me.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Let's say, for whatever reason, you're in a location

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Speaker 1: and I come by and I say, oh, there's going

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Speaker 1: to be this party. You're going to know a couple

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Speaker 1: of people. There's going to be like thirty people there.

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Speaker 1: Come on, let's go. What would you.

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Speaker 2: Say, Yeah, I'd say I'll come for ten minutes.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's say I accept that. Will you actually show up?

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Speaker 2: Yes, I yes, I will. I won't bail on you.

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Speaker 2: I'm not gonna I'm not going to be one of

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Speaker 2: those people who bail at the last minute. And if

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Speaker 2: I'm having a good time, I'll stay longer than ten minutes.

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Speaker 2: But in general, I'll do the Irish good bye.

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Speaker 1: You know, I haven't heard that term that means what?

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Speaker 2: You've never heard that?

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Speaker 1: No, I haven't. That learns something every day?

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Speaker 2: Yes, well today you're going to learn that an Irish

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Speaker 2: goodbye is you just you don't say goodbye to people.

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Speaker 2: It's not that you're rude, it's just your slipping of what.

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Speaker 2: You're slipping out. You're just disappearing. It's it's you're not

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Speaker 2: having you're not making a big deal of leaving. You're

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Speaker 2: just slipping out the door.

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Speaker 1: I sort of had to learn to not do the

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Speaker 1: Irish goodbye. But what might happen at a party such

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Speaker 1: that you would stay?

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Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, my car broke down? Maybe, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: That's pretty serious. I'm talking about what's happening inside the walls.

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Speaker 2: Of the Yeah, I know, I know. Well, I mean,

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Speaker 2: you know, if my car's not working, I can't leave.

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Speaker 2: But uh, what would have to happen? Well, I don't know.

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Speaker 2: Just good conversation, lovely people, and not too late.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: It's like I'm ready to go to sleep by eight

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Speaker 2: o'clock at night.

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Speaker 1: So wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, you're early? Now? Have

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Speaker 1: you always been early? Yes?

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Speaker 2: I have, well maybe not, maybe not as a teenager,

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Speaker 2: but certainly now and for a long time, and living

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Speaker 2: out where I live there, I live in a really

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Speaker 2: beautiful place, and there is a lot to be gained

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Speaker 2: from getting up to see the sunrise.

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Speaker 1: So okay, what is to be gained?

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Speaker 2: Beauty, peace, imagination, gratitude, quiet, just things that can be

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Speaker 2: a very lovely way to start your day.

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Speaker 1: Okay. So the average day, you wake up at what.

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Speaker 2: Time, probably about five five point thirty okay, and.

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Speaker 1: Then what do you do other than observe the sun.

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Speaker 2: Coming up, I make the best cup of coffee on

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Speaker 2: the planet, and after I have wait.

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Speaker 1: Wait wait wait, wait wait wait wait, don't wait wait

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Speaker 1: wait wait wait. I don't happen to be a coffee drinker,

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Speaker 1: but I'm aware of this side. Let's start.

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Speaker 2: I'm so sorry.

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Speaker 1: Let's start from the beginning. How do you literally make it?

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Speaker 2: Well, I have this coffee maker that grinds the beans.

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Speaker 2: And I don't know if this means anything to you.

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Speaker 2: So if you're not a coffee coffee drinker, you know,

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Speaker 2: you might find this pretty boring. But it's just a

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Speaker 2: really great coffee maker that kind of grinds the beans

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Speaker 2: and creates a crema on top, the way you do

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Speaker 2: with espresso, the way people make espresso. So it's just

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Speaker 2: very rich, very delicious. I like half and half in

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Speaker 2: my coffee, and it's just as my friend of mine says,

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Speaker 2: it's the best part of my day. And everything is

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Speaker 2: all downhill from there.

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Speaker 1: Okay, it's the same machine that grinds the beans and

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Speaker 1: also makes the cup of coffee, that's correct. And what's

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Speaker 1: the name of that machine?

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Speaker 2: Oh shit, it's called Jura j U r A. And

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Speaker 2: I bought. I bought this coffee maker from my mother

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Speaker 2: a million years ago, and she said, I cannot be

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Speaker 2: bothered with this. I just need these little you know,

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Speaker 2: these cups that you yeah, yeah, she she just said,

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Speaker 2: I can't be bothered with this. So I took it

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Speaker 2: home and it's my favorite thing.

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Speaker 1: Assuming one where to buy it at retail? How expensive

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Speaker 1: a unit.

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Speaker 2: Is this, Bob? I don't think, I want to say?

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Speaker 1: Okay. The only reason I ask, as I say, I

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Speaker 1: have an interest is even though I don't drink coffee.

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Speaker 1: Is of the standard machines, they say, the best one

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Speaker 1: is the Mocha Master, which is not cheap.

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Speaker 2: Never heard of it? Oh, but that doesn't that doesn't

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Speaker 2: mean anything.

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Speaker 1: Okay, the Moca Master, I forget what country and Europe.

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Speaker 1: You know you're gonna you can get it for less

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Speaker 1: than three hundred dollars. But you're spending that kind of money?

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Speaker 1: Are you saying? The machine you have is one step

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Speaker 1: beyond that?

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Speaker 2: Indeed, it's a made in Switzerland, I believe, and they're pricey.

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Speaker 2: But again, as I said, I bought it for my mother,

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Speaker 2: so I would have spent any amount of money on

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Speaker 2: my mom because she was pretty cool.

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Speaker 1: Okay, in what area do you indulge yourself financially?

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Speaker 2: God, oh my god, that's a I don't know. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I think I'm a kind of frugal person, so you know, uh,

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Speaker 2: I don't know. Whatever it takes to keep my dog

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Speaker 2: and cat healthy, you know, that can be very that

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Speaker 2: can be very expensive. Probably the guitars that I play.

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Speaker 2: I would indulge myself in those instruments because they're pretty

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Speaker 2: wonderful things and they're the tools of my trade. So

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Speaker 2: I think that's worth worth it. Oh, I know. I so,

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Speaker 2: a couple of summers ago, or a couple of years ago,

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Speaker 2: I took the year off because I had terrible arthritis

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Speaker 2: in my hand. So I took the year off to

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Speaker 2: get my hand fixed, as I put it. And it

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Speaker 2: was the year that the Olympics were on and all

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Speaker 2: the sports and whatever. Anyway, I knew I was going

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Speaker 2: to be spending a lot of time sitting on the sofa.

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Speaker 2: So I went out and I bought a big television.

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Speaker 2: And I felt like such a Oh I felt like

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Speaker 2: such a slob doing that, But now, oh my god,

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Speaker 2: I love it so much.

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Speaker 1: So how much television do you watch? Now?

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Speaker 2: I only watch TV. So I'm weird this way. Hopefully

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Speaker 2: maybe I'm not so weird if your listeners relate to this.

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Speaker 2: During the day, I never turned the television on, and

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Speaker 2: I rarely allow myself to to.

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Speaker 1: Sort of.

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Speaker 2: Retire to the sofa and read. It's like, I only

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Speaker 2: watch television if it's in the evening, and I'll only

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Speaker 2: read if it's in the evening. It's as if day

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Speaker 2: is over now it's time to lose yourself in a

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Speaker 2: show or a great book or whatever it is. But

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Speaker 2: during the day, I feel like I have to be

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Speaker 2: working and producing and walking my dog and doing admin

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Speaker 2: and just taking care of things. It's like I just

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Speaker 2: can't allow myself to watch television during the day or whatever.

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Speaker 2: It would make me feel like such a slacker, which is

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Speaker 2: so judgy and stupid. But that's just the way I am.

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Speaker 1: Okay, if you go to bed at eight, when you're

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Speaker 1: in control, and what time does the admin and the

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Speaker 1: walking the door? What time is what's the cutoff time?

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Speaker 2: About four o'clock?

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Speaker 1: Okay, so four o'clock. Yeah, when would you decide to

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Speaker 1: read or watch.

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Speaker 2: Television anytime after that?

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Speaker 1: No? No, when would it be reading as opposed to

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Speaker 1: television or television as opposed to reading.

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Speaker 2: Just depends on my mood. It's a moody thing.

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Speaker 1: And when you read, what do you read? Oh?

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Speaker 2: I love novels, what I love history. My stack of

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Speaker 2: books on my bedside table is just hot gets higher

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Speaker 2: and higher. You know that term sundoku, it's a Japanese term.

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Speaker 1: I do not.

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Speaker 2: Okay, this is the second thing exactly.

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Speaker 1: Where it'll be coming three, So I'm waiting for the third.

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Speaker 2: Okay, we'll get to it. Sundoku is a term loosely translated,

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Speaker 2: it's it's about abundance of books that you may never

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Speaker 2: get to. But it's the act of collecting them that

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Speaker 2: is the point. And so it's okay if you never

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Speaker 2: get to them, but it's it's it's the act of

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Speaker 2: collecting books that you may or may not read.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I understand the concept. Where did you encounter the.

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Speaker 2: Word waash know on amaiwa Meddi chip and Carpenter, I don't.

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Speaker 2: That's me saying my name is Mary Chapin Carpenter and Japanese.

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Speaker 2: When I was a kid, we lived over in Japan

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Speaker 2: for a few years because of my father's jow But

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Speaker 2: I don't think I learned it there. I think I

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Speaker 2: learned it years ago, just by accident because someone I knew,

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Speaker 2: or people would remark, on, Jesus Christ, how many books

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Speaker 2: do you have that you're just sitting on, you know,

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Speaker 2: and someone would have enlightened me as to that there's

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Speaker 2: an actual term for that.

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Speaker 1: So this is not a test, because I hate when

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Speaker 1: people confront me this way. Yeah, within the last ten years,

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Speaker 1: can you name a couple of books that had an

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Speaker 1: impact that you thought were great for whatever reason? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Anything by Elizabeth Strout.

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Speaker 1: Oh, those are all good, each one of them.

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Speaker 2: She's so great and I love and I can just

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Speaker 2: detour for a second. It's like a guiding kind of

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Speaker 2: declaration for me. There's this She has a novel called

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Speaker 2: My Name is Lucy Burton, and the narrator in that

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Speaker 2: book talks about how she takes she's taking a creative

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Speaker 2: writing course, and the instructor says to her, then, I'm paraphrasing,

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Speaker 2: of course, because I can't remember exactly. But she hands

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Speaker 2: in an assignment or whatever or gets stuck on her

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Speaker 2: her writing assignment, and the instructor says, don't worry about

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Speaker 2: the story. We all have just one story. And we

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Speaker 2: tell it, Yes, we tell it many different ways. And

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Speaker 2: I remember in the moment that I was in bed

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Speaker 2: reading that line and I said out loud like, oh, oh,

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Speaker 2: that's what the songs are. It's like, that's it, that

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Speaker 2: was it, and that I know I'm reaching, but but

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Speaker 2: I'm not really back to the very first thing we

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Speaker 2: were talking about about, you know, the songs and personal

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Speaker 2: history and what does it come from. That really in

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Speaker 2: that whole thought informed to me the idea that this

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Speaker 2: record was like songs as memoir. It's like all these

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Speaker 2: different lives that we that we inhabit over the course

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Speaker 2: of our one life, but we tell them. We tell

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Speaker 2: these stories so many different ways. And that moment in

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Speaker 2: my name is Lucy Barton, to me, it was sort

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Speaker 2: of like a bingo moment. It just was like, ah,

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Speaker 2: that that is exactly how I feel. So anyway, I

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Speaker 2: digress anything by Elizabeth Strout, anything by Lauren Growth, anything

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Speaker 2: by Ian McEwan, Oh my gosh. And then there's you know, oh,

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Speaker 2: there's just a lot. There's a lot.

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Speaker 1: You know. I keep bringing this up with people. Did

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Speaker 1: you read Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow?

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Speaker 2: I'm the only person probably who hasn't, but it's been

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Speaker 2: recommended to me so many times. Really again, yeah, absolutely,

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Speaker 2: And so I'm sort of slightly ashamed because.

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Speaker 1: Now I feel like, you know, I don't feel like

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Speaker 1: such an individual since everybody's recommending it. Yeah, it does.

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Speaker 1: It sound like that's the only book I ever read.

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Speaker 1: But let's just flip it. If you're watching television, what

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Speaker 1: are you watching on television?

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Speaker 2: Oh god, that's a whole nother thing that really does.

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Speaker 2: That decision is truly informed by mood. Like you know,

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Speaker 2: I don't know about you, but there are days or

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Speaker 2: evenings I should say when I just I just feel blank,

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Speaker 2: and I don't want to have to work too hard

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Speaker 2: to just chill out, and so I'll watch like stupid shit,

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Speaker 2: you know, just like like a home show on HGTV.

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Speaker 2: But right now, for example, it's very exciting after four

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Speaker 2: o'clock these evenings because I'm watching The American Revolution by

355
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Speaker 2: Ken Burns. So that's very rich and broad and you

356
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:48,680
Speaker 2: have to pay very close attention because there's so much

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Speaker 2: that they're telling you. So that's not for a blank night,

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Speaker 2: that's for an engaged night. But I love it. It's

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Speaker 2: like I love having something to look forward to in

360
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Speaker 2: the queue.

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Speaker 1: Are you a Ken Burns person? And have you watched

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Speaker 1: jazz and baseball and all this stuff?

363
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Speaker 2: No? Not not a not a you know, a true follower.

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Speaker 2: I mean I'm cherry pick.

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Speaker 1: And how about Netflix series stuff like that? Do you

366
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Speaker 1: watch any of that.

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00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:21,120
Speaker 2: If it's British crime dramas?

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Speaker 1: Yes? Okay, So what's what's the best British crime drama?

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Speaker 2: Line of Duty?

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Speaker 1: Line of Duty's phenomenal, phenomenal.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so you know what I'm talking about. Yeah, okay,

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Speaker 2: have you seen Blue Lights?

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Speaker 1: Of course I haven't seen the new season, but I've

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Speaker 1: seen Blue.

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Speaker 2: I haven't either. I'm It's like, I'm way, I've got

376
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:43,560
Speaker 2: it in my queue and I'm waiting. Rather, I should say,

377
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Speaker 2: I'm hoarding.

378
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:48,480
Speaker 1: What's your name? How come I Sarah Lancasher?

379
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Speaker 2: What's yes, Sarah Lancash? What's Sally? Uh? The creator of

380
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Speaker 2: right Jesus Sally? I can't like do my thing, but

381
00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:02,720
Speaker 2: she's the writer of like Happy.

382
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:04,880
Speaker 1: Valley, Happy Valley. That's what I was saying. Oh yeah,

383
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Speaker 1: the latest season of Happy Valley wasn't good, but the

384
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Speaker 1: ones before that I thought were the best.

385
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Speaker 2: So in other words, the one where he meets his end.

386
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Speaker 2: You didn't think that was good? Okay, Well I don't think.

387
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Speaker 2: I don't think I disagree with you about that. I

388
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Speaker 2: mean the earlier seasons they were remarkable, unbelieving.

389
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Speaker 1: That was my number. That was my tomorrow tomorrow tomorrow

390
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Speaker 1: of television.

391
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Speaker 2: I hear you, I hear you.

392
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 1: And what about broad Church? You watch broad Church?

393
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Speaker 2: Loved broad Church, loved it. I just think British TV

394
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:43,000
Speaker 2: in general is so much better than Americans. It's like,

395
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Speaker 2: I don't even remember the last time I got stuck

396
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:53,639
Speaker 2: in to some sort of US mystery series or crime drummer.

397
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Speaker 2: It's like I just don't even go there anymore. It's

398
00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:58,560
Speaker 2: like I I wait for the good British shows. You know?

399
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:01,359
Speaker 1: How about you know they say the Danes in the

400
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:04,840
Speaker 1: Israelis make the best TV. So if you watched any

401
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:06,680
Speaker 1: of the Scandinavian noir and.

402
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:11,439
Speaker 2: That stuff, I what was the one with Kenneth Brawna,

403
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:15,280
Speaker 2: didn't he sort of adapt a Danish drama for.

404
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:18,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I can't remember what it is. Yeah?

405
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:20,919
Speaker 2: I thought that was pretty good. But in general, I

406
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:26,920
Speaker 2: don't think I have followed the Danes or Israeli ad adaptation.

407
00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:30,680
Speaker 1: Well, when the next, you know, lockdown comes, you got

408
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:31,720
Speaker 1: a lot to look forward to.

409
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:34,399
Speaker 2: Oh Jesus, let's hope not.

410
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:41,439
Speaker 1: Okay. So also on the new album, I find a

411
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 1: through line of reflection on aging. Is that something you're

412
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:47,040
Speaker 1: thinking about?

413
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 2: Absolutely, that's, you know, front and center on this record

414
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:57,360
Speaker 2: as a theme and a connecting thread. It was very

415
00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:04,440
Speaker 2: deliberate actually for the very last song on the record,

416
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:05,080
Speaker 2: which is.

417
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:06,960
Speaker 1: Which is probably the best song other than one of

418
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:09,399
Speaker 1: You and Your Dog. Those two are the best songs

419
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:10,080
Speaker 1: on the record, but.

420
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:13,440
Speaker 2: Continue, well, appreciate your opinion.

421
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:16,119
Speaker 1: Probably don't agree, but that's my opinion.

422
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 2: No, I'm not in a position at all to tell

423
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:24,920
Speaker 2: to say to anyone, oh, this is the best song

424
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:29,919
Speaker 2: or it's like And also I can't quite you know,

425
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:32,080
Speaker 2: I can't sort of divide it up that way. It's like,

426
00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:34,640
Speaker 2: to me, it's a it's a whole it's a it's

427
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:38,680
Speaker 2: a whole, complete thing. If one of those songs fell out,

428
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:41,880
Speaker 2: I would feel like there's a hole in the midst

429
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:50,280
Speaker 2: of this, you know, painting whatever. But anyway, coda, you know,

430
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 2: to me, it speaks absolutely about the idea of growing

431
00:28:55,200 --> 00:29:00,040
Speaker 2: older and how to sort of navigate that. And and

432
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 2: then in the end, it's sort of like this, this

433
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,280
Speaker 2: moment of sort of facing yourself and just saying it's

434
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:10,480
Speaker 2: about gratitude for what you have. But to me, it

435
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:14,840
Speaker 2: was very important that that song be open ended. And

436
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:17,360
Speaker 2: it's like it's not saying it's over, it's done, it's

437
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 2: life is finished, but rather there is more to come.

438
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:28,240
Speaker 2: But this is an acknowledgment of where I am right

439
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:34,239
Speaker 2: now in my life and and I'm incredibly grateful for it.

440
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:39,280
Speaker 1: Well, people from the baby boomer era, of which both

441
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:44,200
Speaker 1: of us are members, don't talk about aging. Everybody I

442
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:46,360
Speaker 1: know seems to feel like they're going to live forever.

443
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:50,920
Speaker 2: Why do you think that is? Why don't Why do

444
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 2: you think it is that? Because that's one of the

445
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:54,959
Speaker 2: things I did want to talk about on this record.

446
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 2: And it's as if but it's like for me, it

447
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:06,440
Speaker 2: leads into a lot of other sort of connected conversations

448
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 2: about like agism in the music business and agism in life,

449
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 2: and it's just it's like there's it's as if people

450
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 2: are afraid to talk about it or it's a taboo

451
00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 2: or something like that. I don't, well, I think.

452
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:27,480
Speaker 1: Everything you're seeing is true. You know, growing up, our

453
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:30,360
Speaker 1: parents did not want to be kids. There were definitely

454
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 1: the adults in the room, not that they couldn't be

455
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:37,840
Speaker 1: a reverend. Everybody today, you know, not literally everybody, but

456
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:41,600
Speaker 1: a lot of people. They're working out, they're wearing kids clothes.

457
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:46,240
Speaker 1: They don't want to admit that they're roled, even though

458
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:47,320
Speaker 1: I mean one of the.

459
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:51,280
Speaker 2: Older they're older, right, but.

460
00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 1: The amazing thing about being two amazing thing is one

461
00:30:54,440 --> 00:31:01,320
Speaker 1: you're happier and b you have perspective. They would rather

462
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 1: keep their heads in the sands. Like most people I know,

463
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 1: they say, I want to die in my sleep. I

464
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:07,880
Speaker 1: don't want to die in my sleep. I want to

465
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:09,400
Speaker 1: be like Steve Jeff. I want to see it coming.

466
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 1: I want to know this is the end.

467
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:17,760
Speaker 2: Really, oh, very see I fear that in a profound way.

468
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 2: It's like, I'm very aware of this in myself. Living

469
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:33,240
Speaker 2: in suspense, if you will, being in suspense, some would say, oh,

470
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,080
Speaker 2: that means not being in control, or however you want

471
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 2: to analyze it, but being in suspense, not knowing what's coming,

472
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 2: or rather if you had an illness, shall we say that,

473
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 2: Like you say you want to see it coming, right,

474
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:55,440
Speaker 2: I think I don't think I'm cut out for that,

475
00:31:55,600 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 2: I want to be unaware that I'm nearly gone or something.

476
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:05,440
Speaker 2: I think I would grieve too hard. I think I

477
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:09,760
Speaker 2: would grieve terribly, and I don't want to go through that.

478
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 1: Let's go the other way. You can live another ten minutes,

479
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:18,480
Speaker 1: you could live another thirty years. Okay, Right, If let's

480
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 1: just say we're talking, you died a year from now,

481
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 1: would you feel ripped off? And we say, well, that

482
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:27,040
Speaker 1: a pretty good life, you know that's the end.

483
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:34,480
Speaker 2: I don't think i'd feel ripped off. I feel very.

484
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:37,720
Speaker 1: Well.

485
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:43,960
Speaker 2: Again. There's so many things to this conversation. The first

486
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 2: thing I would say is, as far as this record goes,

487
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 2: there's no way I could have written this record thirty

488
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:52,440
Speaker 2: years ago, or in my thirties, in my forties, in

489
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:58,480
Speaker 2: my fifties. This is a work that is completely of

490
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:02,760
Speaker 2: who I am now. So I have a real appreciation

491
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:05,200
Speaker 2: for the passage of time and what it has given me.

492
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:12,480
Speaker 2: The thing about not wanting to know that there's like

493
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:15,120
Speaker 2: the end is coming next year or whatever, it's just

494
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 2: I think I would just I would miss It's like

495
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 2: I just all I would. I think I would be

496
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:27,800
Speaker 2: obsessed with what I was going to miss, even though

497
00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:32,800
Speaker 2: as people say, oh, well you're not alive to miss anything,

498
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:36,160
Speaker 2: but well, my brain doesn't work.

499
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 1: I think some of this is a function of aging.

500
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 1: Right thirty, everybody's freaked out about is no big deal?

501
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:46,720
Speaker 1: Forty fund me up? Pretty good, fifty, no big deal?

502
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:51,960
Speaker 1: Hits sixty really weird because I felt like I'd seen

503
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 1: the trick. It's like when you're within a grocery store

504
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:56,640
Speaker 1: and your little kid. I want this. I want that.

505
00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:59,520
Speaker 1: They're all that I've to going. If something's good, I'll

506
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 1: find out about it. In addition, a lot of this

507
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 1: is hype when you turn seventy. This is something we're

508
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:09,280
Speaker 1: seeing in America at large with these political figures trend sevy.

509
00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 1: It's just you're aware the end is somewhere, and you're

510
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:20,360
Speaker 1: aware that nobody matters, so you can theoretically evaluate the

511
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:23,960
Speaker 1: path forward, which I find most people do not. And

512
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:27,279
Speaker 1: then you have these congress people you know in their

513
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:31,319
Speaker 1: seventies and eighties refuse to retire, and especially with all

514
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:35,000
Speaker 1: the technological developments of the past thirty years, they're completely

515
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:36,759
Speaker 1: out of touch. I mean, if you're somebody in your

516
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 1: twenties or thirties, you're not even speaking the same language,

517
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:46,080
Speaker 1: and they're very pompously saying we know, okay, So on

518
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:49,239
Speaker 1: some level I feel sorry for them because they're so

519
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:54,200
Speaker 1: busy doing I'll use it a music business example. I

520
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:56,799
Speaker 1: know these guys who have this magazine, they've been doing

521
00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:59,719
Speaker 1: the same thing for forty years. The only thing that

522
00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:02,279
Speaker 1: is change is the name of the acts. How do

523
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:05,520
Speaker 1: you do that? I mean, there's a lot of money involved,

524
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:11,359
Speaker 1: but it's like it be brain dead. You know. It's

525
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:14,000
Speaker 1: kind of like talking to Kenny Chestney and he says,

526
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, I had a big hit with you know,

527
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:19,800
Speaker 1: she's in love with my tractor whatever the hell of

528
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 1: the song is, says, thank god I didn't continue to

529
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:26,280
Speaker 1: write that song. You know that I could grow, whereas

530
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 1: a lot of people they do the same thing. I

531
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:31,320
Speaker 1: just don't know how they do it. And the same

532
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:35,239
Speaker 1: thing with aging, and you know, I thought it was

533
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:39,239
Speaker 1: great that you addressed it. But it's illegal. I mean,

534
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:44,160
Speaker 1: it's really just a riffing here. But it's like mostly

535
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:47,799
Speaker 1: the male acts they get plastic surgery to look young.

536
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:52,320
Speaker 1: The audience looks old, in some cases terrible, and nobody

537
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:55,239
Speaker 1: under the age of forty or fifty even cares or

538
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 1: goes but they die there here they get plastics or

539
00:35:58,680 --> 00:35:59,760
Speaker 1: they're like, who you fooling?

540
00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:04,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think also, I mean, I remember this so well.

541
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:07,000
Speaker 2: It was years and years and years ago. I was

542
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:10,239
Speaker 2: signed as I was on Sony and I'd had a

543
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 2: I had had a big song, and it was I

544
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:19,800
Speaker 2: was in the midst of making my next record, and

545
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:23,719
Speaker 2: the A and R gentleman called me up, and I

546
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:25,959
Speaker 2: think they were sort of like, where is where's the record?

547
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:28,600
Speaker 2: We're waiting for it, you know, And I said, I'm

548
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 2: working on it. And he said the song that I

549
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:36,399
Speaker 2: the so called hit that i'd had was a song

550
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:41,000
Speaker 2: called down at the Twist and Shout and he he said,

551
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:43,600
Speaker 2: and I do quote exactly. He said, well, don't you

552
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 2: have another twist and shout and I and I just

553
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:50,920
Speaker 2: stopped and I just said, why would I want to

554
00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:54,040
Speaker 2: do the same thing over and over again? And it

555
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:58,000
Speaker 2: was like he didn't, he didn't give a shit. He

556
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:00,840
Speaker 2: just wanted to know what was coming down the pipeline

557
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:02,520
Speaker 2: so he could figure out what his bonus was going

558
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:05,480
Speaker 2: to be or something. I mean, it was just, you know,

559
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 2: it was the enemy of creativity.

560
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:12,480
Speaker 1: There you go, Well, let's flip it over. You were

561
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:15,799
Speaker 1: part of the major label system and had great success,

562
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:18,919
Speaker 1: and there were two things going on at the same time.

563
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:21,600
Speaker 1: You have an arc of a career but also changes

564
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:26,520
Speaker 1: in the business. So when you add success in the nineties,

565
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:32,000
Speaker 1: assuming you had success, I mean anybody, everybody in that

566
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:35,600
Speaker 1: world would know who you are, know what was going on,

567
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:41,000
Speaker 1: whereas today most of the hit acts, people are unaware

568
00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:43,440
Speaker 1: of their music. Maybe they know their name. It's like

569
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 1: for all that talk about Taylor Swift, I go place,

570
00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:50,720
Speaker 1: people can't name two songs, or if you hit young people,

571
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:54,239
Speaker 1: they can't sing them. Whereas it used to be if

572
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:58,239
Speaker 1: it was a hit, everybody knew it. So in this

573
00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 1: world you're in total control because you can make the

574
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:05,719
Speaker 1: music you want whatever. But does it frustrate you that

575
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 1: it's harder to reach a mass audience.

576
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:12,840
Speaker 2: I don't think frustration is the is the word I

577
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:19,400
Speaker 2: would use. It's it's a consequence of I mean that

578
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 2: just the fire hose of of of of content, you know, music, content, whatever.

579
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:31,520
Speaker 2: It's just it's like you put a record out on

580
00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:35,120
Speaker 2: a Friday and it's forgotten by Monday. If you're lucky, right,

581
00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:39,040
Speaker 2: you know, if even if it even made it through

582
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:43,880
Speaker 2: the weekend, right, and there are some exceptions to that,

583
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:47,520
Speaker 2: but generally I think that's the way it is now, right,

584
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:54,480
Speaker 2: And you know, it's it's like, I wouldn't call it frustrating.

585
00:38:57,280 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 2: Well maybe it would. Yeah, maybe i'd say it's frustrating.

586
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:01,640
Speaker 2: But on the other hand, there's a part of me

587
00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:05,320
Speaker 2: that feels really strongly about well, no one is entitled

588
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:11,080
Speaker 2: to It's like, you know, it can't. It's not like

589
00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:14,880
Speaker 2: I deserve to be heard by more people or something.

590
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:17,400
Speaker 2: It's like, it's just that's just not the way it works.

591
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:21,479
Speaker 2: But it's just it is different from when I started out.

592
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:26,440
Speaker 2: But also the fact that I had any kind of

593
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:31,600
Speaker 2: no Arriet or whatever to me is still a complete shock.

594
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:32,799
Speaker 2: So I don't know.

595
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:45,759
Speaker 1: Well, in addition to this arc of technology, the arc

596
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:49,640
Speaker 1: of a career is you've been to the mountaintop. There

597
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:53,600
Speaker 1: are a few exceptions, the Eagles, Paul McCartney, even whatever,

598
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:58,400
Speaker 1: But the other acts been into the mountaintop. Audience decreases

599
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:02,800
Speaker 1: to some point. You know, they're not telling as many tickets,

600
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:06,160
Speaker 1: people are not listening to the music as much. How

601
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:08,360
Speaker 1: does one metabolize or coope with that?

602
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:13,719
Speaker 2: Well, first of all, it would be helpful if the

603
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:17,560
Speaker 2: people that you are fortunate enough to spend some time

604
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:20,520
Speaker 2: talking to in the journalists, the people who are writing

605
00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:26,440
Speaker 2: about X new record or whatever it is. I'm still

606
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:29,200
Speaker 2: thinking about this. It was someone I spoke with last

607
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:35,279
Speaker 2: summer about the record, and he asked me, why are

608
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:44,080
Speaker 2: you still doing this? I was astonished by that question,

609
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:48,800
Speaker 2: first of all, just and I once I stopped laughing

610
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:54,160
Speaker 2: and sort of how I had a lot of responses.

611
00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:56,279
Speaker 2: I felt like it was rude. I felt like it

612
00:40:56,320 --> 00:41:01,640
Speaker 2: was kind of thoughtless and clueless. And and then I,

613
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:05,640
Speaker 2: you know, moved into the next phase, which was not

614
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:09,200
Speaker 2: to in any way suggest that I'm on the same

615
00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:12,480
Speaker 2: level as this person. But if he was talking to

616
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 2: Bruce Springsteen, would he say, Bruce, why are you still

617
00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:15,520
Speaker 2: doing this?

618
00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:15,960
Speaker 1: You know?

619
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:20,719
Speaker 2: It's just again it just felt like what And so

620
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:25,040
Speaker 2: the only answer I had for him really was I

621
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:27,719
Speaker 2: didn't realize there was like a deadline I had met

622
00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:30,640
Speaker 2: and it was touched my shelf life was over whatever.

623
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:35,520
Speaker 2: I I intend to keep doing this as long as

624
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:38,560
Speaker 2: I have something to say. Art is not, you know,

625
00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:43,759
Speaker 2: being a songwriter, being an artist in this world that

626
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:48,680
Speaker 2: we inhabit, it's not you know. I don't want to

627
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:50,719
Speaker 2: get all pompous about it. But it's not a nine

628
00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:54,520
Speaker 2: to five job that I'm going to eventually, you know,

629
00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:57,959
Speaker 2: collect retirement for It's just it's a calling. It's something

630
00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:00,959
Speaker 2: I feel like I need to do, and I've always

631
00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:03,880
Speaker 2: felt that way about it, whether I had an audience

632
00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:08,279
Speaker 2: or not. I'm deeply grateful and fortunate that I did

633
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:12,600
Speaker 2: find an audience and that I still have one. But

634
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:17,560
Speaker 2: it's like again, and that to me, is part of

635
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:20,839
Speaker 2: that sort of agism that exists, and it's not as

636
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:24,399
Speaker 2: you know, to me thinking about it. The gentleman who

637
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:28,279
Speaker 2: asked me that question, he's a much younger person and

638
00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:31,840
Speaker 2: than I am, and you know, he's just come up

639
00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:34,240
Speaker 2: in a different world, and I don't know. I'm still

640
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:37,080
Speaker 2: sort of kind of shaking my head about it.

641
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:42,360
Speaker 1: Okay. You know, I don't want to defend any music

642
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:47,920
Speaker 1: journalists for numerous reasons. However, just to state facts, there

643
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:50,600
Speaker 1: are a lot of acts from the so called classic

644
00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:55,640
Speaker 1: rock era who was refused to make new music because

645
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:58,319
Speaker 1: they believe no one's going to hear it. Now. Obviously

646
00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:02,480
Speaker 1: we can go deeper and analyze who they are, what

647
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:07,240
Speaker 1: their motivations, artistic whatever, But I'm leading into The next

648
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:11,680
Speaker 1: question is when they do put out music, there's the

649
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:14,840
Speaker 1: issue of how much new music they can play in

650
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:17,840
Speaker 1: a show. Is that something you think about.

651
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:24,040
Speaker 2: It's something I feel when I put a set list together,

652
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:30,719
Speaker 2: when it's time to tour a new record whatever, I'm

653
00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:36,279
Speaker 2: very I try to be very thoughtful about how much

654
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:42,600
Speaker 2: new music I inject into the set list. Where to

655
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:45,920
Speaker 2: find the balance, I mean, you know, and again it

656
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:48,560
Speaker 2: also depends on how long has the record been out,

657
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:52,120
Speaker 2: how have people even had a chance to digest it,

658
00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:58,560
Speaker 2: you know. I think that's that's important as well. So yeah,

659
00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:00,600
Speaker 2: I just feel like I'm really thoughtful about it. I

660
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:04,880
Speaker 2: don't have any desire to play the record front to

661
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:08,640
Speaker 2: back in a set. If anything, I want to be

662
00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:13,040
Speaker 2: able to just show that there are connecting threads between

663
00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:17,200
Speaker 2: this new music and what you're familiar with prior. You know,

664
00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:22,880
Speaker 2: it's like it's all coming from me, and it's you know,

665
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:27,520
Speaker 2: it's just very it's just very clear to me that

666
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:30,080
Speaker 2: it's all part of the whole thing.

667
00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:35,719
Speaker 1: Well, I guess let's assume you're doing a show by yourself.

668
00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:38,560
Speaker 1: You may have side musicians, but you're not working with

669
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:43,640
Speaker 1: the numerous people you do work with to what degree

670
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:47,279
Speaker 1: every night is different. It's just like legitimate theater. They

671
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:50,839
Speaker 1: do the same lines, but every night is different. To

672
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:54,880
Speaker 1: what degree are you conscious of the audience in trying

673
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:59,920
Speaker 1: to win them over to your side? You know?

674
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:04,239
Speaker 2: I think when I was a much younger artist, I

675
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:08,839
Speaker 2: may have felt that way upon walking on stage, like

676
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:12,040
Speaker 2: I'm on a mission here, I want to win these

677
00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:18,480
Speaker 2: people over. I feel like after all these years since then,

678
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:24,000
Speaker 2: now maybe I'm wrong to make this assumption, but I

679
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:27,080
Speaker 2: feel like it's much less about that and more just

680
00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:34,400
Speaker 2: this appreciation and recognition of it's a community inside this space.

681
00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:38,879
Speaker 2: We're all together here. People are here because they want

682
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:42,600
Speaker 2: to be as opposed to having their arms crossed sort

683
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:46,839
Speaker 2: of indicating show me. It's like they know what they're

684
00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:50,080
Speaker 2: here for. Because I've been around long enough, I guess

685
00:45:50,239 --> 00:45:53,080
Speaker 2: you know that it's not a mystery to them. They're

686
00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:56,359
Speaker 2: not being introduced to someone new. So I think it's

687
00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:59,280
Speaker 2: a you know, kind of a logical thing to feel

688
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:03,560
Speaker 2: like I want to I want to be here with

689
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:05,920
Speaker 2: everyone here in this audience, and I want us all

690
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:10,000
Speaker 2: to feel connected. That's that's to me what I feel.

691
00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:17,440
Speaker 2: What I I'm deeply grateful for every every time I

692
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:18,280
Speaker 2: step on stage.

693
00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:23,680
Speaker 1: Let's go back to the agism. There's absolutely agism in

694
00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:26,360
Speaker 1: the music business, and we could talk about that a lot,

695
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:31,080
Speaker 1: but to what deg we You experience agism in your

696
00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:33,520
Speaker 1: non music business life.

697
00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:39,719
Speaker 2: When people talk to you in such a way that

698
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:52,000
Speaker 2: they think you're hard of hearing, right, or they call

699
00:46:52,080 --> 00:47:00,040
Speaker 2: you honey, maybe honey like they're talking to their nana,

700
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:11,799
Speaker 2: you know. Yeah, just things like that. You know, It's

701
00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:17,960
Speaker 2: just you just detect things, you know, and sometimes it's

702
00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:21,440
Speaker 2: like and I'll just sometimes walk away going what the fuck.

703
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:25,120
Speaker 1: Right? It's like, what right? Right? Right?

704
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 2: What the fuck? What do I look? Do I look

705
00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:32,040
Speaker 2: like I'm eighty five years old or something. I know

706
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:35,360
Speaker 2: a lot of eighty five year old women and they're

707
00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:37,160
Speaker 2: rock stars.

708
00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:36,960
Speaker 1: You know.

709
00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:44,600
Speaker 2: But again, I like to with the exception of some people,

710
00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:47,239
Speaker 2: I like to believe the best about people, and I

711
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:50,320
Speaker 2: think that when I do get the sort of Nana treatment,

712
00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:54,440
Speaker 2: it's just people are just wanting to be helpful and

713
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:59,360
Speaker 2: compassionate and and they're trying to be thoughtful. So you know,

714
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:01,640
Speaker 2: I'm not going to punch anybody out.

715
00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:06,680
Speaker 1: Well, that's an interesting thought. I remember I was in

716
00:48:06,719 --> 00:48:09,640
Speaker 1: the mountains and I didn't take a bus, you had

717
00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:11,520
Speaker 1: to buy it. I was talking to the guy and

718
00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:14,439
Speaker 1: I'm trying to figure out which bus and where it's going.

719
00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:17,239
Speaker 1: Figure goes, Okay, the senior.

720
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:18,000
Speaker 2: Rate is Jesus.

721
00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:20,799
Speaker 1: It's like, you know, it's like, oh yeah, all I

722
00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:25,200
Speaker 1: did was ask you these questions. But as a woman

723
00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:30,400
Speaker 1: in society, we hear all of this attention based on looks.

724
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:33,600
Speaker 1: What has your experience been with ageism as.

725
00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:37,440
Speaker 2: A woman in the music business and in life?

726
00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:41,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, well mostly in life in life music business.

727
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:47,759
Speaker 2: Well, for example, my neighbor, one of my neighbors, years ago,

728
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:53,799
Speaker 2: we were taking a walk. She this beautiful artist, and

729
00:48:53,880 --> 00:49:02,719
Speaker 2: she had beautiful, thick colored gray hair, just like the

730
00:49:02,719 --> 00:49:06,240
Speaker 2: most beautiful gray hair you've ever seen in your life,

731
00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:10,439
Speaker 2: Like I would kill for that hair. And her name

732
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:13,600
Speaker 2: was Elsa, and she one day we're just talking about

733
00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:17,600
Speaker 2: and I must we're talking about agism. We encounter et cetera.

734
00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:21,759
Speaker 2: And she pointed to her hair and she said, the

735
00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:25,640
Speaker 2: minute my hair became this, I became invisible in life.

736
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:30,360
Speaker 2: And it broke my heart. And that she said that.

737
00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:33,840
Speaker 2: I mean, she's just the coolest lady. She's so she's

738
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:41,879
Speaker 2: a total super nova. And again it just I actually would.

739
00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:44,080
Speaker 2: During the summer when I was on tour, I was

740
00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:47,359
Speaker 2: sort of riffing about this when I was introducing girl

741
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:51,600
Speaker 2: and her dog and talking about how I know so

742
00:49:51,719 --> 00:49:56,000
Speaker 2: many women who older women who have said to me

743
00:49:56,920 --> 00:49:59,839
Speaker 2: at so many different times. You know, I turned six

744
00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:02,839
Speaker 2: and I became invisible, and I'm like, what the fuck

745
00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:05,640
Speaker 2: does that mean? It's like, what are you talking about?

746
00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:12,120
Speaker 2: And then slowly but surely it started to happen to

747
00:50:12,160 --> 00:50:15,759
Speaker 2: me in those ways, and I got it, I understood,

748
00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:21,759
Speaker 2: and it was both dreadful and hilarious.

749
00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:22,480
Speaker 1: You know.

750
00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:27,879
Speaker 2: It's like you just you sort of realize, well, I've

751
00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:31,680
Speaker 2: reached that place where the people have been telling me

752
00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:34,239
Speaker 2: about all this time and I didn't believe it, but

753
00:50:34,360 --> 00:50:38,719
Speaker 2: here I am, you know, And you know, I just

754
00:50:38,719 --> 00:50:40,840
Speaker 2: don't want to be I don't want to be cranky

755
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:43,160
Speaker 2: about it all the time and say and not talk

756
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:47,280
Speaker 2: about anything else. But it really does inform so much

757
00:50:48,760 --> 00:50:52,000
Speaker 2: in life and in art, you know, and this record

758
00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:53,520
Speaker 2: certainly testifies to that.

759
00:50:55,440 --> 00:51:01,080
Speaker 1: Okay, would you ever contemplate any because medic procedures.

760
00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:06,960
Speaker 2: No, And I'll tell you why.

761
00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:09,040
Speaker 1: I knew that was a bad ask. No.

762
00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:16,080
Speaker 2: So when we were talking about impending death and illnesses

763
00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:19,319
Speaker 2: and things like that. I didn't mention, but years ago

764
00:51:19,520 --> 00:51:25,240
Speaker 2: I suffered a pulmonary embolism and I came very close

765
00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:29,319
Speaker 2: to not being here, and it was a very traumatic experience.

766
00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:34,359
Speaker 2: And once you have a blood clot, you can be

767
00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:40,719
Speaker 2: you're at risk further risk for getting another one. And

768
00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:45,040
Speaker 2: my feeling about elective procedures is I don't want to

769
00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:48,759
Speaker 2: do anything that would put me in at risk for

770
00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:51,759
Speaker 2: having another blood cloth. So there you go.

771
00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:55,040
Speaker 1: How did you realize that you had a blood clock?

772
00:51:55,120 --> 00:51:57,720
Speaker 2: I couldn't breathe a little bit slower?

773
00:51:58,120 --> 00:52:00,920
Speaker 1: Was it one event or in retrospect, had it been building?

774
00:52:00,960 --> 00:52:02,640
Speaker 1: And where was it when you have it.

775
00:52:02,640 --> 00:52:06,160
Speaker 2: Had been building? I'll tell you exactly what happened. I

776
00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:08,279
Speaker 2: had been on Well, actually I don't know if I

777
00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:09,720
Speaker 2: want to tell you exactly what happened.

778
00:52:10,160 --> 00:52:13,759
Speaker 1: Uh. Well, now I'm more interested in why you don't

779
00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:14,400
Speaker 1: want to tell me.

780
00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:17,919
Speaker 2: I don't have to tell me because it's like I'm

781
00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:20,080
Speaker 2: just kind of opening my health file to you, and

782
00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:21,640
Speaker 2: I don't know if I want to do that to

783
00:52:21,719 --> 00:52:23,200
Speaker 2: the wider world.

784
00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:25,440
Speaker 1: Well, you know, let just to stop. I mean, you know,

785
00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:29,640
Speaker 1: I talk about health issues all the time do it. Yes,

786
00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:34,200
Speaker 1: maybe I've had more than the average person. Everywhere I

787
00:52:34,239 --> 00:52:37,200
Speaker 1: go now people ask me about they health. I have found.

788
00:52:38,080 --> 00:52:40,120
Speaker 1: The only difference is the other people don't talk about it.

789
00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:43,759
Speaker 1: Everybody's got something that's right. And it's like, I have

790
00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:47,480
Speaker 1: this macular degeneration, now whatever, and her all of a

791
00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:50,200
Speaker 1: sudden he reveals, Oh, this is much worse. He just

792
00:52:50,239 --> 00:52:53,759
Speaker 1: never told you. Okay, I find a ton of that shit.

793
00:52:53,880 --> 00:52:55,960
Speaker 1: I'm not listen. You don't have to tell me. Yeah,

794
00:52:56,239 --> 00:53:00,239
Speaker 1: but that if people were only more on it, it's

795
00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:02,600
Speaker 1: part of that image we're talking about where you can't

796
00:53:02,640 --> 00:53:06,440
Speaker 1: embrace aging. You know, it's like I was under the

797
00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:10,560
Speaker 1: illusic something stupid. Maybe my parents were. You know, you're

798
00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:13,600
Speaker 1: one hundred percent together and you die. That is not

799
00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:17,120
Speaker 1: the way it lays out, that's right. Unless you die

800
00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:21,360
Speaker 1: before your time, there's a deterioration and emotionally very difficult.

801
00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:27,600
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I am in that movie right now, and

802
00:53:27,840 --> 00:53:30,200
Speaker 2: I understand what you're saying, and I agree with you.

803
00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:37,000
Speaker 2: And it's really hard, it's really really hard, Okay, just

804
00:53:37,040 --> 00:53:40,680
Speaker 2: to satisfy your curiosity. I had so I had this

805
00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:43,480
Speaker 2: blood clot and the reason I got it, we believe

806
00:53:44,200 --> 00:53:48,879
Speaker 2: is because I have always suffered from migrain headaches and

807
00:53:49,560 --> 00:53:54,080
Speaker 2: I was taking this medication that actually it was a

808
00:53:54,160 --> 00:54:00,560
Speaker 2: birth control pills that would What I understand about it

809
00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:05,080
Speaker 2: was that it was, uh it would I wouldn't get

810
00:54:05,120 --> 00:54:08,640
Speaker 2: so much estrogen that would create the headaches. But the

811
00:54:08,680 --> 00:54:13,280
Speaker 2: birth control pills they now have a black box warning

812
00:54:13,280 --> 00:54:15,359
Speaker 2: on them, but at the time that I was taking them,

813
00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:19,160
Speaker 2: they did not. But they were the cause of this

814
00:54:20,400 --> 00:54:26,880
Speaker 2: blood clot and yeah, it was pretty terrifying. It was horrible.

815
00:54:26,920 --> 00:54:31,120
Speaker 1: Actually, so you have the surgery, they you know, put

816
00:54:31,120 --> 00:54:34,600
Speaker 1: a clip usually whatever, blah blah blah. Have you had

817
00:54:34,640 --> 00:54:39,880
Speaker 1: any after effects of that problem in resulting surgery?

818
00:54:40,360 --> 00:54:46,520
Speaker 2: I mentally it was like I was afraid too, so

819
00:54:46,560 --> 00:54:51,279
Speaker 2: that you know, you're put on blood centers for a

820
00:54:51,320 --> 00:54:53,920
Speaker 2: period of time and then you weaned off of that.

821
00:54:54,600 --> 00:54:59,279
Speaker 2: I remember marching into my doctor's office nearly nearly two

822
00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:02,279
Speaker 2: years after the event saying and he said, I think

823
00:55:02,280 --> 00:55:04,560
Speaker 2: it's time for us to start tapering off the blood

824
00:55:04,560 --> 00:55:07,719
Speaker 2: thinners and everything. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no,

825
00:55:09,239 --> 00:55:10,480
Speaker 2: don't ask me to get on a plane.

826
00:55:10,480 --> 00:55:10,840
Speaker 1: I can't.

827
00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:12,520
Speaker 2: I can't, I can't, I can't. You know, just like

828
00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:19,279
Speaker 2: all these sort of things that were terrifying to me,

829
00:55:19,960 --> 00:55:21,920
Speaker 2: like that they if I got on a plane and

830
00:55:22,120 --> 00:55:24,919
Speaker 2: if I didn't move around enough, then I'd get another

831
00:55:24,920 --> 00:55:27,200
Speaker 2: blood clot. If I got off the blood thinners, I'm

832
00:55:27,200 --> 00:55:28,880
Speaker 2: going to get another blood clot, you know, just like

833
00:55:29,840 --> 00:55:35,160
Speaker 2: you know my doctor. He was amazing and so kind

834
00:55:35,239 --> 00:55:41,359
Speaker 2: and compassionate and helpful. But fear is fear, and it's

835
00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:44,440
Speaker 2: really hard to deal with. But I eventually got through it.

836
00:55:45,400 --> 00:55:48,560
Speaker 1: Well. When people have these issues, frequently they go to

837
00:55:48,600 --> 00:55:50,680
Speaker 1: a therapist. Have you been to a therapist?

838
00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:58,360
Speaker 2: Have I been to a therapist? My middle name is therapy, no,

839
00:55:59,200 --> 00:56:05,279
Speaker 2: my paid friend. Yes, I've been to a number of

840
00:56:05,320 --> 00:56:10,200
Speaker 2: therapists over the years, and they're all incredibly patient.

841
00:56:11,680 --> 00:56:13,040
Speaker 1: Have you found it helpful?

842
00:56:14,080 --> 00:56:20,080
Speaker 2: Absolutely? Absolutely. I remember one of one thing that one

843
00:56:20,080 --> 00:56:23,879
Speaker 2: of my therapists said when I was electing to as,

844
00:56:23,920 --> 00:56:27,800
Speaker 2: I said, fly solo for a while, and he said,

845
00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:31,319
Speaker 2: you know, just give me a call when you're ready

846
00:56:31,320 --> 00:56:33,160
Speaker 2: to come back, if you're ever ready to come back,

847
00:56:33,400 --> 00:56:35,480
Speaker 2: And I said, well, I hope I don't have to,

848
00:56:36,120 --> 00:56:39,480
Speaker 2: and he was like, you know what. I have a

849
00:56:39,560 --> 00:56:43,319
Speaker 2: number of patients who have said to me that they

850
00:56:43,400 --> 00:56:47,440
Speaker 2: consider it a privilege to be able to sit and

851
00:56:47,480 --> 00:56:51,040
Speaker 2: talk with someone when they need to. It's not a

852
00:56:51,120 --> 00:56:55,480
Speaker 2: beginning and an end. It's an ongoing journey through life.

853
00:56:55,920 --> 00:57:00,879
Speaker 2: And I thought that was wonderful and it changed how

854
00:57:00,920 --> 00:57:05,160
Speaker 2: I thought about the whole process. And yeah, so I

855
00:57:05,880 --> 00:57:08,920
Speaker 2: consider myself so fortunate that I can afford it, and

856
00:57:08,960 --> 00:57:12,040
Speaker 2: that I can do it, and that I have such great,

857
00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:15,600
Speaker 2: great people to be my paid friends.

858
00:57:16,560 --> 00:57:19,200
Speaker 1: Paid friends got a derogatory tone, though.

859
00:57:19,760 --> 00:57:22,440
Speaker 2: No, I mean it with affection and humor.

860
00:57:23,400 --> 00:57:29,000
Speaker 1: Okay, you mentioned birth control pills. You don't have children.

861
00:57:29,680 --> 00:57:33,520
Speaker 1: Was that a choice? Do you have any regret? Is

862
00:57:33,560 --> 00:57:35,040
Speaker 1: this exactly what you wanted.

863
00:57:36,960 --> 00:57:40,400
Speaker 2: By the time I got married for the first and

864
00:57:40,520 --> 00:57:44,520
Speaker 2: only time, I was little, I had aged out of

865
00:57:44,520 --> 00:57:49,520
Speaker 2: that particular situation. So it was basically I would have

866
00:57:49,680 --> 00:57:53,080
Speaker 2: loved to have had a family, had kids, but I

867
00:57:53,160 --> 00:57:57,000
Speaker 2: was I just you know, I just never was in

868
00:57:57,040 --> 00:57:59,480
Speaker 2: a place in my life where I could make sense

869
00:57:59,480 --> 00:58:04,000
Speaker 2: of how to do it by myself. So yeah, it

870
00:58:04,120 --> 00:58:06,280
Speaker 2: just didn't happen. It just wasn't in the cards for me.

871
00:58:06,360 --> 00:58:07,840
Speaker 2: I would have loved it if it had beened.

872
00:58:08,560 --> 00:58:12,000
Speaker 1: Well, there's a reference to put a benignly to an

873
00:58:12,240 --> 00:58:15,919
Speaker 1: X in one of the songs and essentially saying they're

874
00:58:15,960 --> 00:58:20,560
Speaker 1: not trustworthy A was that your personal experience?

875
00:58:21,480 --> 00:58:24,720
Speaker 2: I need to know what the song is, but I

876
00:58:24,760 --> 00:58:26,040
Speaker 2: need to know what the song is.

877
00:58:26,240 --> 00:58:28,680
Speaker 1: I'd have to go through all the lyrics. There's a

878
00:58:28,720 --> 00:58:32,760
Speaker 1: guy there I could do it. And it was essentially.

879
00:58:35,160 --> 00:58:39,640
Speaker 2: I mean, there's one song called Bitter Ender, which is

880
00:58:39,840 --> 00:58:43,160
Speaker 2: really just it's a portrait of me being one of

881
00:58:43,200 --> 00:58:47,120
Speaker 2: those people. It's like, oh my god, why am I

882
00:58:47,240 --> 00:58:51,640
Speaker 2: still hanging around here? The writing is on the wall.

883
00:58:51,680 --> 00:58:53,800
Speaker 2: I need to leave this relationship or I need to

884
00:58:54,040 --> 00:58:58,600
Speaker 2: end this or whatever, and I'm just always hanging on

885
00:58:58,680 --> 00:59:01,520
Speaker 2: for dear life, like thinking, oh, it's going to fix itself,

886
00:59:01,560 --> 00:59:03,440
Speaker 2: it's going to be better, it's going to be okay.

887
00:59:04,160 --> 00:59:06,840
Speaker 2: And so that's the whole song. So I don't know.

888
00:59:06,920 --> 00:59:12,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, but that's a different perspective. There's another one. Truth

889
00:59:12,480 --> 00:59:16,080
Speaker 1: is I've always gone down with the ship. But that

890
00:59:16,240 --> 00:59:21,040
Speaker 1: is different from the behavior of the person. The signs

891
00:59:21,080 --> 00:59:25,360
Speaker 1: you're willing to miss when you're cut to the quick.

892
00:59:26,680 --> 00:59:33,840
Speaker 1: Let me let me you were married once, right, you

893
00:59:33,920 --> 00:59:36,720
Speaker 1: say you live alone in the middle of nowhere and

894
00:59:36,800 --> 00:59:41,840
Speaker 1: you were somewhat of a harmit. Yeah, so However, contrasting

895
00:59:41,960 --> 00:59:43,840
Speaker 1: that you have this very public life and you do

896
00:59:43,960 --> 00:59:47,600
Speaker 1: travel a certain amount. So what about romance at this

897
00:59:47,640 --> 00:59:50,240
Speaker 1: point in your life.

898
00:59:55,160 --> 00:59:58,640
Speaker 2: I'm open to it if it were to happen, but

899
00:59:58,680 --> 01:00:02,280
Speaker 2: I'm also really con I'm really comfortable and content with

900
01:00:03,080 --> 01:00:09,560
Speaker 2: the life that I have created for myself. You know,

901
01:00:09,720 --> 01:00:12,440
Speaker 2: I just, first of all, I don't feel like I

902
01:00:12,520 --> 01:00:15,240
Speaker 2: ever need to get married again. I didn't really want

903
01:00:15,280 --> 01:00:17,160
Speaker 2: to get married in the first place. But the person

904
01:00:17,160 --> 01:00:20,160
Speaker 2: that I ended up getting married to just for a

905
01:00:20,160 --> 01:00:23,880
Speaker 2: lot of different reasons, he wanted it to be legal whatever.

906
01:00:24,040 --> 01:00:29,479
Speaker 2: But I don't. I don't feel that way now for sure. Yeah,

907
01:00:29,520 --> 01:00:33,560
Speaker 2: I just I'm I'm I'm sound like something out of

908
01:00:33,600 --> 01:00:35,920
Speaker 2: a Jane Austen novel. But I'm quite content.

909
01:00:36,640 --> 01:00:48,880
Speaker 1: You know, let's look at a different way. You were married. Yeah,

910
01:00:48,920 --> 01:00:51,320
Speaker 1: but you also say you're a hermit, and this has

911
01:00:51,320 --> 01:00:53,520
Speaker 1: been something your whole life. You know, there are people

912
01:00:53,520 --> 01:00:57,880
Speaker 1: who are serial monogamous. They're always in a relationship. There's

913
01:00:57,920 --> 01:01:00,720
Speaker 1: somebody in a book right now that I'm reading didn't

914
01:01:00,720 --> 01:01:03,000
Speaker 1: have a relationship till she was twenty four, and that

915
01:01:03,080 --> 01:01:06,720
Speaker 1: was the only relationship you ever had. We're on the continuum.

916
01:01:06,800 --> 01:01:07,520
Speaker 1: Do you lie.

917
01:01:11,440 --> 01:01:19,240
Speaker 2: Gosh, you know, I just I feel like I just

918
01:01:19,360 --> 01:01:23,640
Speaker 2: never met the right person. You know, I dated lots

919
01:01:23,640 --> 01:01:27,360
Speaker 2: of different people and just not throwing shade at them,

920
01:01:27,600 --> 01:01:31,400
Speaker 2: but it's just I was. It's like I remember talking

921
01:01:31,440 --> 01:01:33,959
Speaker 2: to my therapist saying, I don't think I have relationship

922
01:01:34,120 --> 01:01:38,600
Speaker 2: DNA in me. I just didn't think I you know,

923
01:01:38,680 --> 01:01:47,720
Speaker 2: I just I don't know. And it's just like now

924
01:01:47,960 --> 01:01:51,120
Speaker 2: when I think of what I might have to do

925
01:01:51,160 --> 01:01:56,360
Speaker 2: to accommodate like a relationship, like I think I have

926
01:01:56,520 --> 01:01:59,760
Speaker 2: always said actually and I mean it. I say it humorously,

927
01:01:59,800 --> 01:02:02,480
Speaker 2: but you know, there are no jokes, doctor Freud. The

928
01:02:03,880 --> 01:02:06,840
Speaker 2: idea that, to me, the perfect relationship at this point

929
01:02:06,840 --> 01:02:10,520
Speaker 2: in my life would be somebody who lives like down

930
01:02:10,520 --> 01:02:12,920
Speaker 2: the road, you know, and we can meet up when

931
01:02:12,920 --> 01:02:15,040
Speaker 2: we want to. But it's like I want my own space,

932
01:02:15,080 --> 01:02:19,000
Speaker 2: I want my own home, I want my place, and

933
01:02:19,160 --> 01:02:20,120
Speaker 2: I don't want to share it.

934
01:02:20,600 --> 01:02:22,280
Speaker 1: But there are a lot of people who actually live that,

935
01:02:22,560 --> 01:02:27,400
Speaker 1: some even married. I think it's fabulous, But I if

936
01:02:27,440 --> 01:02:31,040
Speaker 1: you had met the perfect person, what would they have

937
01:02:31,120 --> 01:02:31,560
Speaker 1: looked like?

938
01:02:33,560 --> 01:02:33,920
Speaker 2: Really?

939
01:02:35,400 --> 01:02:35,680
Speaker 1: Hmm?

940
01:02:44,120 --> 01:02:45,200
Speaker 2: I think they'd be tall.

941
01:02:46,520 --> 01:02:48,560
Speaker 1: Well, I wasn't talking physically.

942
01:02:48,080 --> 01:02:51,600
Speaker 2: But okay, Okay, what were you talking about.

943
01:02:51,960 --> 01:02:54,760
Speaker 1: Well, when you're talking about you've never met somebody, I

944
01:02:54,800 --> 01:02:59,000
Speaker 1: think of the clique as opposed to what this spark, right.

945
01:02:58,800 --> 01:03:04,960
Speaker 2: The spark. Yeah, yeah, they'd have to be really funny.

946
01:03:05,120 --> 01:03:10,840
Speaker 2: That's a huge spark. It's just like humor. That's the greatest.

947
01:03:11,000 --> 01:03:13,120
Speaker 2: That's the most seductive thing in the world. Is someone

948
01:03:13,120 --> 01:03:18,280
Speaker 2: who makes you laugh, like genuine belly aching laugh. You know,

949
01:03:18,520 --> 01:03:21,360
Speaker 2: there's nothing more seductive to me about it than that

950
01:03:22,400 --> 01:03:32,200
Speaker 2: someone who's thoughtful and curious, is interested in in what

951
01:03:32,280 --> 01:03:37,840
Speaker 2: you do, but not obsequious about it, you know, not

952
01:03:38,920 --> 01:03:45,160
Speaker 2: like they're They would be proud of you and what

953
01:03:45,200 --> 01:03:49,920
Speaker 2: you've accomplished in your life, but they're not interested in

954
01:03:50,040 --> 01:03:51,480
Speaker 2: piggybacking on top of it.

955
01:03:51,640 --> 01:03:51,840
Speaker 1: You know.

956
01:03:51,880 --> 01:03:54,360
Speaker 2: They're just they have their own life and their own

957
01:03:54,360 --> 01:04:01,240
Speaker 2: interests and their own passions. They like to read, they

958
01:04:01,480 --> 01:04:05,840
Speaker 2: like to listen to choral music as much as I do.

959
01:04:06,480 --> 01:04:09,760
Speaker 1: Wow, how'd you get into choral music? Oh?

960
01:04:09,800 --> 01:04:14,840
Speaker 2: My god, I don't know. My mom, I guess she

961
01:04:14,840 --> 01:04:18,520
Speaker 2: would blast. It's not choral music, but she would blast

962
01:04:18,960 --> 01:04:22,040
Speaker 2: Texico Opera Theater on Saturday afternoons out of the met

963
01:04:23,120 --> 01:04:27,600
Speaker 2: every Saturday at two o'clock blasting in the house. But

964
01:04:27,720 --> 01:04:32,360
Speaker 2: she also just you know, I don't know, I just

965
01:04:34,560 --> 01:04:38,160
Speaker 2: always loved, like the last year that she was alive,

966
01:04:39,680 --> 01:04:47,920
Speaker 2: myself and my pals Don Dixon and Marty Jones, and

967
01:04:48,040 --> 01:04:54,080
Speaker 2: we went over to Cambridge in the UK and stood

968
01:04:54,120 --> 01:04:58,880
Speaker 2: in line for nine hours to get tickets for the

969
01:04:58,960 --> 01:05:05,280
Speaker 2: Christmas Eve served at King's College, Cambridge, where you will

970
01:05:05,280 --> 01:05:07,760
Speaker 2: hear the most beautiful choral music you've ever heard in

971
01:05:07,760 --> 01:05:13,919
Speaker 2: your life, and we did that because it's Nirvana and

972
01:05:14,320 --> 01:05:17,200
Speaker 2: my mom it was her last year that she was

973
01:05:17,280 --> 01:05:20,040
Speaker 2: like and it's like, you're not supposed to use your

974
01:05:20,040 --> 01:05:24,120
Speaker 2: phone in the chapel, but I was like taking pictures

975
01:05:24,120 --> 01:05:26,960
Speaker 2: of the stained glass windows and sending them, texting them

976
01:05:26,960 --> 01:05:29,160
Speaker 2: to my mom in real time. So she was like

977
01:05:29,320 --> 01:05:35,320
Speaker 2: there with me, and we had the program so she

978
01:05:35,400 --> 01:05:37,880
Speaker 2: knew the songs which were coming. And then when the

979
01:05:37,920 --> 01:05:40,640
Speaker 2: service was over, raced back to the hotel, called Mom

980
01:05:40,680 --> 01:05:43,040
Speaker 2: on the phone and we went through the whole thing together,

981
01:05:43,800 --> 01:05:48,080
Speaker 2: the whole service, and it was the best time of

982
01:05:48,080 --> 01:05:52,840
Speaker 2: my life. And I heard all these great, incredible pieces

983
01:05:52,880 --> 01:05:56,560
Speaker 2: of music, and to this day, choral music is just

984
01:05:56,680 --> 01:06:00,280
Speaker 2: my favorite thing in my life. It's just my favorite thing.

985
01:06:00,720 --> 01:06:03,240
Speaker 2: And I don't know why, but she gave.

986
01:06:03,000 --> 01:06:05,600
Speaker 1: That to me, and would you play it in the house.

987
01:06:07,320 --> 01:06:10,760
Speaker 2: Twenty four to seven? I turned it off so I

988
01:06:10,800 --> 01:06:12,000
Speaker 2: could do this interview with you.

989
01:06:13,280 --> 01:06:15,919
Speaker 1: That's definitive. Let's jump backwards. How'd you end up going

990
01:06:15,920 --> 01:06:18,360
Speaker 1: to Brown? God?

991
01:06:19,360 --> 01:06:26,280
Speaker 2: Truthfully, yeah, it was the closest college that I applied

992
01:06:26,320 --> 01:06:32,160
Speaker 2: to my home in DC with my parents when I

993
01:06:32,200 --> 01:06:34,320
Speaker 2: was in high school, when it was time to apply

994
01:06:34,400 --> 01:06:37,600
Speaker 2: to colleges, I didn't. I was the third out of

995
01:06:37,640 --> 01:06:40,000
Speaker 2: four kids. By the time it was my turn. My

996
01:06:40,000 --> 01:06:42,760
Speaker 2: parents were like, we're not taking you to go look

997
01:06:42,800 --> 01:06:44,120
Speaker 2: at colleges. You figure it.

998
01:06:44,080 --> 01:06:44,640
Speaker 1: Out, you know.

999
01:06:44,720 --> 01:06:48,240
Speaker 2: I was just like, oh God, And I just knew

1000
01:06:48,240 --> 01:06:50,920
Speaker 2: that I wanted to be able to go home whenever

1001
01:06:50,960 --> 01:06:54,000
Speaker 2: I wanted, as opposed to just on Thanksgiving or spring

1002
01:06:54,040 --> 01:06:57,320
Speaker 2: break because from you know, if it was too far away.

1003
01:06:57,960 --> 01:07:04,040
Speaker 2: So I applied to all these school in California, school

1004
01:07:04,080 --> 01:07:07,720
Speaker 2: in Vermont, school in Colorado, and I School and to Brown,

1005
01:07:08,160 --> 01:07:11,280
Speaker 2: and I got into all of them. And Brown was

1006
01:07:11,320 --> 01:07:13,480
Speaker 2: the closest one to DC. So that's the one I

1007
01:07:13,480 --> 01:07:13,760
Speaker 2: went to.

1008
01:07:14,840 --> 01:07:18,080
Speaker 1: Okay, at some point in this narrative, and I can't

1009
01:07:18,080 --> 01:07:21,560
Speaker 1: tell you when I believe it's when you're there. Brown

1010
01:07:21,720 --> 01:07:25,960
Speaker 1: is known for this very innovative academic program, which when

1011
01:07:26,000 --> 01:07:28,280
Speaker 1: I applied to college a few years before you, they

1012
01:07:28,280 --> 01:07:30,440
Speaker 1: did not have it. No one applied to Brown, and

1013
01:07:30,480 --> 01:07:33,360
Speaker 1: then everybody wanted to go to Brown. Was that part

1014
01:07:33,400 --> 01:07:34,520
Speaker 1: of the attraction.

1015
01:07:35,680 --> 01:07:37,720
Speaker 2: No, I mean I think they called it sort of

1016
01:07:37,720 --> 01:07:39,840
Speaker 2: the open curriculum or something like that like that, I

1017
01:07:39,880 --> 01:07:43,400
Speaker 2: don't know, Like, in other words, they didn't require you

1018
01:07:43,480 --> 01:07:48,120
Speaker 2: to have, I don't know, a certain amount of credit, can.

1019
01:07:48,080 --> 01:07:49,560
Speaker 1: Try to make your own major or something.

1020
01:07:49,640 --> 01:07:52,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, you could make it up. No, that

1021
01:07:52,600 --> 01:07:54,600
Speaker 2: was not the reason, because I don't think I even

1022
01:07:54,680 --> 01:07:59,000
Speaker 2: knew what that was the time. Honestly, I didn't know.

1023
01:08:00,160 --> 01:08:04,040
Speaker 1: Okay, you went. How was the experience?

1024
01:08:05,600 --> 01:08:09,919
Speaker 2: Well, I loved being in classrooms. I got a great

1025
01:08:10,040 --> 01:08:14,280
Speaker 2: education I did. I was an American civilization major, which

1026
01:08:14,440 --> 01:08:19,599
Speaker 2: at the time was again a very broad palette of things,

1027
01:08:21,320 --> 01:08:24,240
Speaker 2: which just allowed me to indulge myself, like you know,

1028
01:08:24,320 --> 01:08:30,040
Speaker 2: literature courses and sociology courses and art history and you

1029
01:08:30,080 --> 01:08:30,759
Speaker 2: know whatever.

1030
01:08:31,880 --> 01:08:32,080
Speaker 1: You know.

1031
01:08:32,240 --> 01:08:38,040
Speaker 2: I just I just loved being in the classroom.

1032
01:08:38,080 --> 01:08:41,679
Speaker 1: Well, you know, college is inherently social. First, you're living

1033
01:08:41,720 --> 01:08:43,120
Speaker 1: in the dorm. I don't know how long you lived

1034
01:08:43,160 --> 01:08:47,599
Speaker 1: in the dorm. Were your hermit tendencies and evidence there

1035
01:08:47,800 --> 01:08:48,400
Speaker 1: or were they not?

1036
01:08:49,360 --> 01:08:58,400
Speaker 2: The I was, you know, I've just always been it's

1037
01:08:58,400 --> 01:09:01,759
Speaker 2: hard to make friends, I think, and I've just always

1038
01:09:01,800 --> 01:09:03,720
Speaker 2: been that way, and I'm shy, and I didn't like

1039
01:09:03,800 --> 01:09:08,240
Speaker 2: to go to parties, and well no, I think I

1040
01:09:08,280 --> 01:09:10,120
Speaker 2: did like to go to parties, but I just didn't know.

1041
01:09:10,560 --> 01:09:13,519
Speaker 2: I just didn't know a lot of people. So after

1042
01:09:13,880 --> 01:09:15,760
Speaker 2: so I was in a dorm just for one year,

1043
01:09:15,920 --> 01:09:19,080
Speaker 2: and then after that, let the remaining three years I

1044
01:09:19,120 --> 01:09:23,640
Speaker 2: lived in a group house with a rotating cast of friends.

1045
01:09:25,000 --> 01:09:27,760
Speaker 1: Was it a rotating cast or was it a rotating

1046
01:09:27,800 --> 01:09:29,360
Speaker 1: cast of friends?

1047
01:09:30,120 --> 01:09:36,640
Speaker 2: It was a rotating cast and mostly friends. Well, I

1048
01:09:36,680 --> 01:09:38,720
Speaker 2: mean there was a few a few strangers that I

1049
01:09:38,760 --> 01:09:39,320
Speaker 2: did not know.

1050
01:09:39,600 --> 01:09:41,240
Speaker 1: And get what I'm trying to say is you're living

1051
01:09:41,240 --> 01:09:43,519
Speaker 1: in a group house. We're all going to college, got

1052
01:09:43,560 --> 01:09:47,519
Speaker 1: the common purpose, but everybody's got a different schedule. Yes,

1053
01:09:47,600 --> 01:09:50,479
Speaker 1: so are you sitting in the living room bullshitting or

1054
01:09:50,520 --> 01:09:52,640
Speaker 1: is everybody hey, nice to see I'm going back to

1055
01:09:52,680 --> 01:09:55,080
Speaker 1: my room and studying. I'm going out to class.

1056
01:09:55,720 --> 01:10:01,680
Speaker 2: It was both, It was both, and we I think

1057
01:10:01,720 --> 01:10:04,479
Speaker 2: we were kind of mature in this way where we

1058
01:10:04,880 --> 01:10:08,679
Speaker 2: everybody took a night. It was a big house. Everybody

1059
01:10:08,800 --> 01:10:11,559
Speaker 2: would pick a night and would cook for that night.

1060
01:10:11,760 --> 01:10:14,960
Speaker 2: So you'd cook for everybody. So you had like one

1061
01:10:15,040 --> 01:10:17,280
Speaker 2: night a week where you had to you were responsible

1062
01:10:17,320 --> 01:10:20,000
Speaker 2: for dinner. But it gave us all a reason to

1063
01:10:20,000 --> 01:10:23,000
Speaker 2: be together. It's kind of a family thing, you know,

1064
01:10:23,560 --> 01:10:25,679
Speaker 2: And that was pretty civilized, I think.

1065
01:10:26,840 --> 01:10:27,840
Speaker 1: So do you know how to cook?

1066
01:10:28,960 --> 01:10:35,720
Speaker 2: I love to cook. And the what I remember quite

1067
01:10:36,080 --> 01:10:40,400
Speaker 2: fondly from my night to cook at college was the

1068
01:10:40,439 --> 01:10:44,880
Speaker 2: Moose Would Cookbook, the famous Moose Would cook Book, which

1069
01:10:44,880 --> 01:10:50,760
Speaker 2: is all vegetarian and so and I still have my

1070
01:10:50,840 --> 01:10:55,280
Speaker 2: copy that's covered in grease and dirt and you know,

1071
01:10:55,400 --> 01:11:03,599
Speaker 2: stains from food. Anyway, I love to cook, but I'll

1072
01:11:03,600 --> 01:11:08,240
Speaker 2: be honest with you and say that I'm a little

1073
01:11:08,360 --> 01:11:10,680
Speaker 2: lazy about cooking just for myself.

1074
01:11:11,680 --> 01:11:12,040
Speaker 1: And so.

1075
01:11:13,800 --> 01:11:16,880
Speaker 2: There's a lot of that because I'm hermit.

1076
01:11:18,479 --> 01:11:23,160
Speaker 1: Okay, so you are alone. You do have to eat? Yes,

1077
01:11:23,240 --> 01:11:25,600
Speaker 1: what are you just freshing at? What's the refrigerator? Do

1078
01:11:25,640 --> 01:11:27,160
Speaker 1: you plan a meal? What does it look like?

1079
01:11:27,920 --> 01:11:34,920
Speaker 2: I plan it like I I like to be able

1080
01:11:35,400 --> 01:11:40,000
Speaker 2: to be like I have about three different you know

1081
01:11:40,280 --> 01:11:43,200
Speaker 2: go tos that I don't have to think about. And

1082
01:11:43,240 --> 01:11:46,479
Speaker 2: then other days when I really want something different, I'll

1083
01:11:46,640 --> 01:11:50,559
Speaker 2: make the effort to like make something new. But you know,

1084
01:11:50,600 --> 01:11:54,040
Speaker 2: I just like to make my salmon with my Asian

1085
01:11:54,320 --> 01:11:57,960
Speaker 2: marinade and peanut butter, sesame noodles, or like to make

1086
01:11:58,000 --> 01:12:03,000
Speaker 2: my home homemade chicken noodles, soup, or you know, just

1087
01:12:04,240 --> 01:12:08,599
Speaker 2: you know, just stuff, you know, comfort food Ininegarten, barefoot contessa,

1088
01:12:08,840 --> 01:12:09,599
Speaker 2: easy peasy.

1089
01:12:10,200 --> 01:12:15,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, we're talking around the time of the holidays.

1090
01:12:15,880 --> 01:12:17,520
Speaker 1: What will you do for the holidays.

1091
01:12:18,720 --> 01:12:23,679
Speaker 2: I will have family come to the farm where it's

1092
01:12:23,720 --> 01:12:26,360
Speaker 2: a it's a Thanksgiving pot luck in that sense, like

1093
01:12:26,439 --> 01:12:31,679
Speaker 2: everybody brings a dish whatever. And some of my sisters

1094
01:12:31,720 --> 01:12:37,120
Speaker 2: have giant children, so they eat a lot, so you know,

1095
01:12:37,280 --> 01:12:40,080
Speaker 2: they they they're giant people and they eat a lot

1096
01:12:40,080 --> 01:12:43,599
Speaker 2: of food. So like that sister, the mother of those

1097
01:12:43,640 --> 01:12:47,960
Speaker 2: particular giant children, will bring like the giant turkey.

1098
01:12:48,840 --> 01:12:49,040
Speaker 1: You know.

1099
01:12:50,120 --> 01:12:53,320
Speaker 2: It's sort of divvied up that way anyway. But everybody comes.

1100
01:12:53,439 --> 01:12:57,160
Speaker 2: Everybody comes to my house and and we eat, and

1101
01:12:57,160 --> 01:12:59,840
Speaker 2: then we take a long walk with the dogs. And

1102
01:13:01,680 --> 01:13:04,639
Speaker 2: then before it's dark everybody starts to pack up in their.

1103
01:13:04,439 --> 01:13:07,519
Speaker 1: Clone, and how many people will come this year?

1104
01:13:07,560 --> 01:13:10,799
Speaker 2: It'll be twelve, I think twelve or thirteen.

1105
01:13:12,120 --> 01:13:15,719
Speaker 1: Okay, so everybody in your family lives within driving distance.

1106
01:13:16,720 --> 01:13:26,400
Speaker 2: Not everyone, but in this particular case. Yes, these are sisters, spouses, nieces, nephews,

1107
01:13:26,680 --> 01:13:27,760
Speaker 2: no grandchildren yet.

1108
01:13:28,200 --> 01:13:31,280
Speaker 1: Okay, so you're three out of four in the family.

1109
01:13:33,120 --> 01:13:37,760
Speaker 1: You have your personality, we've established. What are the other

1110
01:13:37,800 --> 01:13:38,320
Speaker 1: three like?

1111
01:13:41,520 --> 01:13:45,360
Speaker 2: Thank god they're different from me. Now, I think we're

1112
01:13:45,400 --> 01:13:50,800
Speaker 2: all I think we're all somewhat similar. I don't know,

1113
01:13:51,400 --> 01:13:52,920
Speaker 2: i'd sort of I feel like I'm not the best

1114
01:13:53,000 --> 01:13:54,400
Speaker 2: judge of this. I don't really know.

1115
01:13:55,600 --> 01:13:57,559
Speaker 1: I mean, they're your siblings. You grew up in the

1116
01:13:57,600 --> 01:13:59,880
Speaker 1: house and there's four kids. You know, there's a lot

1117
01:14:00,120 --> 01:14:01,800
Speaker 1: going on. I grew up with three kids. You know,

1118
01:14:01,880 --> 01:14:03,840
Speaker 1: the parents are on hands on me. It's not like

1119
01:14:03,880 --> 01:14:07,440
Speaker 1: if there's one kid. So there's one kid who's the outgoing,

1120
01:14:07,720 --> 01:14:09,599
Speaker 1: one of the sports person one of all. He sits

1121
01:14:09,640 --> 01:14:13,240
Speaker 1: on the sidelines. Their connections, their wars or arguments. What

1122
01:14:13,280 --> 01:14:17,200
Speaker 1: are the young what are the other three up to?

1123
01:14:17,280 --> 01:14:18,519
Speaker 1: What did their lives look like?

1124
01:14:18,640 --> 01:14:22,679
Speaker 2: Okay, you really want to know all? Yeah, you're very thorough.

1125
01:14:24,520 --> 01:14:28,760
Speaker 2: My youngest sister is an elite athlete. It's like, how

1126
01:14:29,120 --> 01:14:33,080
Speaker 2: how how how the hell am I related to her?

1127
01:14:33,200 --> 01:14:35,639
Speaker 2: I do not know? And that she's first of all,

1128
01:14:35,640 --> 01:14:39,680
Speaker 2: she's tall. I'm so short. She's super tall. And she

1129
01:14:39,880 --> 01:14:46,080
Speaker 2: has been a runner, an elite runner for many years.

1130
01:14:46,160 --> 01:14:48,479
Speaker 2: She's one of those people that runs like one hundred

1131
01:14:48,520 --> 01:14:49,160
Speaker 2: mile races.

1132
01:14:49,479 --> 01:14:51,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, ultra maritha ultra.

1133
01:14:51,880 --> 01:14:55,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, she's an ultra athlete. And you know they start

1134
01:14:55,160 --> 01:14:58,439
Speaker 2: at midnight through the woods in the Shenandoah Valley and

1135
01:14:58,479 --> 01:14:59,800
Speaker 2: then that's a famous race.

1136
01:15:00,280 --> 01:15:01,799
Speaker 1: I know about it, yes, yeah, yeah.

1137
01:15:01,680 --> 01:15:06,760
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, And I mean it's amazing, it's amazing what

1138
01:15:06,920 --> 01:15:10,800
Speaker 2: she does. So anyway she does that. Then my other sister,

1139
01:15:10,800 --> 01:15:14,439
Speaker 2: who's closest in age to me, and she's older, she

1140
01:15:14,800 --> 01:15:20,360
Speaker 2: is so smart it scares me. She's just like brilliant

1141
01:15:20,560 --> 01:15:24,679
Speaker 2: and she's retired now from her job, but she she's

1142
01:15:24,800 --> 01:15:27,880
Speaker 2: just like she knows, she just knows things, and she's

1143
01:15:28,000 --> 01:15:34,519
Speaker 2: just she's so smart about art and science and music

1144
01:15:34,680 --> 01:15:39,960
Speaker 2: and all sorts of things, and she's just she's just

1145
01:15:40,000 --> 01:15:43,439
Speaker 2: incredibly smart. And then my oldest, oldest sister, and she

1146
01:15:43,560 --> 01:15:45,800
Speaker 2: is also retired from her job, but she was a

1147
01:15:45,880 --> 01:15:50,800
Speaker 2: journalist and you know, just is one awards and just

1148
01:15:51,280 --> 01:15:55,960
Speaker 2: super smart too. It's like we're all We're all different

1149
01:15:56,000 --> 01:16:00,240
Speaker 2: in terms of what we've pursued, but I guess we

1150
01:16:00,320 --> 01:16:02,479
Speaker 2: have we share some things. I don't know what.

1151
01:16:03,120 --> 01:16:08,080
Speaker 1: So all girls, all girls? And are the other ones

1152
01:16:08,120 --> 01:16:09,439
Speaker 1: married with children or not?

1153
01:16:11,439 --> 01:16:15,719
Speaker 2: My youngest sister is married. My two older sisters are divorced.

1154
01:16:16,320 --> 01:16:18,240
Speaker 1: Were there any children in any of these stories?

1155
01:16:18,400 --> 01:16:19,639
Speaker 2: Yes, they all have children.

1156
01:16:20,320 --> 01:16:25,479
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, you're growing up. Are people referring to you

1157
01:16:25,600 --> 01:16:29,280
Speaker 1: as Mary Chapin or Mary from the beginning?

1158
01:16:29,320 --> 01:16:34,320
Speaker 2: It was a double name, right, as I understand, Yes,

1159
01:16:34,360 --> 01:16:36,400
Speaker 2: it's always been a double name, like Mary Beth or

1160
01:16:36,479 --> 01:16:37,320
Speaker 2: Mary Anne, but it's.

1161
01:16:37,160 --> 01:16:39,960
Speaker 1: Married chap Okay, your siblings have double names.

1162
01:16:40,439 --> 01:16:47,599
Speaker 2: No, my mother was Mary Bowie. She was from the South,

1163
01:16:47,800 --> 01:16:50,240
Speaker 2: and the South have this tradition, as I understand that

1164
01:16:50,680 --> 01:16:53,439
Speaker 2: double first names. Anyway, So she was Mary Bowie. My

1165
01:16:53,479 --> 01:16:57,080
Speaker 2: father's first name is Chapin, so and they named me

1166
01:16:57,200 --> 01:16:57,840
Speaker 2: Mary Chapin.

1167
01:16:58,720 --> 01:17:02,040
Speaker 1: Okay, you're going to school. Are you the smartest kid

1168
01:17:02,080 --> 01:17:03,759
Speaker 1: in your class? No?

1169
01:17:05,640 --> 01:17:09,800
Speaker 2: And I always felt and still do or fear like

1170
01:17:09,920 --> 01:17:17,599
Speaker 2: I'm I'm not the smartest person you know, remember broadcast news. Yeah,

1171
01:17:18,280 --> 01:17:23,599
Speaker 2: movie Holly Hunter and that famous scene where he says

1172
01:17:23,640 --> 01:17:27,800
Speaker 2: to her, it must be so he's being facetious. Of course,

1173
01:17:27,840 --> 01:17:31,280
Speaker 2: he must be so hard to always be the smartest

1174
01:17:31,280 --> 01:17:34,439
Speaker 2: person in the room, right, And she looks at him

1175
01:17:34,640 --> 01:17:40,160
Speaker 2: so earnestly and says, it is. It is, Holly Hunter.

1176
01:17:40,360 --> 01:17:44,920
Speaker 2: Love it anyway? So no, I never feel like the

1177
01:17:44,920 --> 01:17:46,040
Speaker 2: smartest person in the room.

1178
01:17:46,040 --> 01:17:49,320
Speaker 1: Well, listen, let's call a spade of spade. Unless you're

1179
01:17:49,560 --> 01:17:53,640
Speaker 1: like a internationally famous juggler or something, you have to

1180
01:17:53,680 --> 01:17:58,840
Speaker 1: be very smart to get into Brown. You can talk

1181
01:17:58,880 --> 01:18:01,719
Speaker 1: it down all you want. Did you go to public

1182
01:18:01,720 --> 01:18:02,960
Speaker 1: school or parochial school?

1183
01:18:03,800 --> 01:18:07,439
Speaker 2: I went to a private school, private school, and I went.

1184
01:18:07,920 --> 01:18:11,320
Speaker 2: I went to private school, and then the last two

1185
01:18:11,439 --> 01:18:14,719
Speaker 2: years of high school I was in boarding school.

1186
01:18:15,080 --> 01:18:20,040
Speaker 1: Where'd you go to boarding school? Taft? You went to Taft? Really?

1187
01:18:20,240 --> 01:18:20,840
Speaker 2: Yes, sir?

1188
01:18:20,960 --> 01:18:25,680
Speaker 1: I did? Good or bad experience? Oh good? Why did

1189
01:18:25,680 --> 01:18:26,719
Speaker 1: your parents send your way?

1190
01:18:27,640 --> 01:18:30,040
Speaker 2: They were getting divorced and I wanted to get the

1191
01:18:30,080 --> 01:18:30,960
Speaker 2: hell out of Dodge?

1192
01:18:31,080 --> 01:18:34,960
Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, okay, my parents fought plenty, but they were

1193
01:18:34,960 --> 01:18:38,320
Speaker 1: not divorced. Did you know that they were heading in

1194
01:18:38,360 --> 01:18:38,960
Speaker 1: this direction?

1195
01:18:39,920 --> 01:18:44,080
Speaker 2: Absolutely? Absolutely? It was yeah, I did.

1196
01:18:45,040 --> 01:18:47,919
Speaker 1: What was the thought amongst the kids, this is horrifying,

1197
01:18:48,000 --> 01:18:49,920
Speaker 1: is going to break up the family? Or thank God?

1198
01:18:50,400 --> 01:18:50,640
Speaker 1: Or what?

1199
01:18:51,760 --> 01:18:54,320
Speaker 2: I think it was both? You know, I think it

1200
01:18:54,360 --> 01:18:57,080
Speaker 2: was I think it was a relief that it was

1201
01:18:57,120 --> 01:19:00,240
Speaker 2: like something was finally going to shift, because it was

1202
01:19:00,360 --> 01:19:04,040
Speaker 2: really toxic to be there. But at the same time,

1203
01:19:04,720 --> 01:19:06,720
Speaker 2: you know, it's an unknown and you don't know what's

1204
01:19:06,760 --> 01:19:11,080
Speaker 2: going to happen, and you're fifteen years old and you're scared,

1205
01:19:11,520 --> 01:19:15,519
Speaker 2: you know, and you're lonely and you're depressed, and you

1206
01:19:15,560 --> 01:19:22,559
Speaker 2: don't know what to do that not to not to

1207
01:19:22,640 --> 01:19:24,839
Speaker 2: tie this up with a bow and make it all tidy.

1208
01:19:24,920 --> 01:19:29,320
Speaker 2: But that to me, what I just said is, you know,

1209
01:19:29,720 --> 01:19:32,640
Speaker 2: talk about motivation for wanting to play the guitar and

1210
01:19:32,680 --> 01:19:35,960
Speaker 2: write songs and just be in your room and comfort yourself. Somehow,

1211
01:19:37,080 --> 01:19:38,479
Speaker 2: that's a big part of it.

1212
01:19:38,760 --> 01:19:40,840
Speaker 1: Okay, do either of them find someone.

1213
01:19:40,600 --> 01:19:45,280
Speaker 2: New my father? Did my father?

1214
01:19:45,760 --> 01:19:47,200
Speaker 1: Was that a cause of the divorce?

1215
01:19:48,680 --> 01:19:50,360
Speaker 2: No? No, no, no, no, okay.

1216
01:19:50,600 --> 01:19:53,879
Speaker 1: So when when do you first start playing an instrument?

1217
01:19:53,920 --> 01:19:56,120
Speaker 1: I mean, did you take piano lessons or how did

1218
01:19:56,160 --> 01:19:56,679
Speaker 1: it happen?

1219
01:19:57,640 --> 01:20:03,280
Speaker 2: I my mother? You know, you've heard people joke about

1220
01:20:03,280 --> 01:20:05,719
Speaker 2: the Great Folks Scare of the early sixties.

1221
01:20:05,840 --> 01:20:08,200
Speaker 1: Oh, I remember with a nylon string guitar and the

1222
01:20:08,240 --> 01:20:10,000
Speaker 1: sing Peter, Paul and Mary. Believe me, I know.

1223
01:20:10,040 --> 01:20:15,360
Speaker 2: Which is what, Bob, You have just landed on it,

1224
01:20:15,439 --> 01:20:19,559
Speaker 2: that's right. So my mother had the Goya gut string

1225
01:20:19,600 --> 01:20:23,960
Speaker 2: guitar that she would get together with her friends like

1226
01:20:24,000 --> 01:20:26,760
Speaker 2: one night a week or something, and they'd all sit

1227
01:20:26,800 --> 01:20:30,120
Speaker 2: in a circle and play Kingston Trio whatever. They'd look

1228
01:20:30,160 --> 01:20:33,160
Speaker 2: at the chord chart and put their fingers on the

1229
01:20:33,160 --> 01:20:36,479
Speaker 2: front board and all that stuff. And then that lasted

1230
01:20:36,560 --> 01:20:38,960
Speaker 2: I don't know how long. But then that guitar sat

1231
01:20:39,000 --> 01:20:41,599
Speaker 2: in the corner gathering dust, and it's like, I want

1232
01:20:41,600 --> 01:20:45,000
Speaker 2: to play that. But also I had a bass ukulele,

1233
01:20:45,160 --> 01:20:47,599
Speaker 2: which is the first four strings of the guitar. So

1234
01:20:47,680 --> 01:20:51,680
Speaker 2: I started playing bass ukulele and stealing all those songbooks

1235
01:20:51,720 --> 01:20:55,760
Speaker 2: and just you know, teaching myself. And then when that

1236
01:20:55,840 --> 01:21:00,840
Speaker 2: guitar sat collecting dust, and it was like, okay to

1237
01:21:01,080 --> 01:21:04,759
Speaker 2: take mom's guitar. And then that's I started playing her guitar.

1238
01:21:05,560 --> 01:21:10,000
Speaker 2: And I remember being in second grade and it was

1239
01:21:10,080 --> 01:21:13,760
Speaker 2: time for school assembly and I played Salito Lindo on

1240
01:21:13,840 --> 01:21:16,960
Speaker 2: the guitar. I just remember being in second grade, so

1241
01:21:17,400 --> 01:21:19,200
Speaker 2: it certainly goes pretty far back.

1242
01:21:20,479 --> 01:21:22,120
Speaker 1: Did you ever take any lessons?

1243
01:21:23,360 --> 01:21:25,920
Speaker 2: No, not on the guitar. I tried to take piano

1244
01:21:25,960 --> 01:21:27,840
Speaker 2: lessons when I was in high school, and I sucked

1245
01:21:27,880 --> 01:21:31,800
Speaker 2: so bad I couldn't and I had used my you know,

1246
01:21:31,880 --> 01:21:36,720
Speaker 2: I I would teach, you know, learn by listening, you know,

1247
01:21:36,880 --> 01:21:40,200
Speaker 2: self taught that way, and I tried to learn how

1248
01:21:40,200 --> 01:21:44,479
Speaker 2: to read music. I remember, in particular Bach's minuet and

1249
01:21:44,520 --> 01:21:48,200
Speaker 2: g dun't d d d dunt dun you know, but

1250
01:21:48,280 --> 01:21:51,880
Speaker 2: I memorized it so I wouldn't read the notes, which

1251
01:21:53,120 --> 01:21:56,480
Speaker 2: sabotaged my ability to read music because I would never practice.

1252
01:21:56,840 --> 01:21:58,599
Speaker 2: So that was a failure.

1253
01:21:58,760 --> 01:22:02,559
Speaker 1: We all saw that movie from that generation. But you

1254
01:22:02,760 --> 01:22:08,240
Speaker 1: peak in second grade. Where do you go from second grade?

1255
01:22:09,280 --> 01:22:14,360
Speaker 2: You just keep listening and learning, and then the next

1256
01:22:14,400 --> 01:22:17,800
Speaker 2: thing felt like, well, I want to write my own songs,

1257
01:22:18,400 --> 01:22:22,320
Speaker 2: and I would they. I don't remember any of them,

1258
01:22:22,360 --> 01:22:26,360
Speaker 2: but I remember being very deliberate, being like in fifth

1259
01:22:26,400 --> 01:22:30,719
Speaker 2: grade or whatever it was, and writing songs, my songs,

1260
01:22:30,880 --> 01:22:32,639
Speaker 2: you know, my version of a song.

1261
01:22:41,360 --> 01:22:45,840
Speaker 1: Okay, there was you know, the folk of the early sixties,

1262
01:22:46,280 --> 01:22:49,920
Speaker 1: then the Meatles hit in sixty four. Most parents were

1263
01:22:49,920 --> 01:22:51,640
Speaker 1: not fans of that music.

1264
01:22:51,400 --> 01:22:53,960
Speaker 2: Somewhere, but oh my parents loved it.

1265
01:22:54,120 --> 01:22:58,120
Speaker 1: Oh really? So, oh were you listening to Top forty radio?

1266
01:22:58,240 --> 01:23:01,360
Speaker 1: Were you knowing? Yes, so you were a fan of.

1267
01:23:01,320 --> 01:23:05,559
Speaker 2: The music w ABC cousin Brucey.

1268
01:23:05,880 --> 01:23:08,800
Speaker 1: Oh the Countdown Tuesday Night, dan Ingram number one in

1269
01:23:08,840 --> 01:23:11,000
Speaker 1: the nation in the absolutely.

1270
01:23:11,280 --> 01:23:15,400
Speaker 2: And the thing is, as you'll remember, is that you

1271
01:23:15,439 --> 01:23:20,720
Speaker 2: could hear Strawberry Fields forever, and then the next thing

1272
01:23:20,760 --> 01:23:24,400
Speaker 2: would be the Mom's in the Papas, and then the

1273
01:23:24,439 --> 01:23:29,080
Speaker 2: next thing would be the Turtles or Rolling Stones or

1274
01:23:29,240 --> 01:23:34,040
Speaker 2: Motown or something like that. So you could hear it all.

1275
01:23:34,120 --> 01:23:36,000
Speaker 2: And we had our transistor radios.

1276
01:23:36,240 --> 01:23:39,000
Speaker 1: As I always say, I can sing every lick of

1277
01:23:39,360 --> 01:23:42,559
Speaker 1: Louie Armstrong solo Dolly because I was waiting for the Beatles,

1278
01:23:42,760 --> 01:23:45,759
Speaker 1: because you had to listen to stuff I like today

1279
01:23:45,800 --> 01:23:48,920
Speaker 1: that you didn't like. Okay, so you're writing your own

1280
01:23:49,040 --> 01:23:53,080
Speaker 1: songs when you are high school with the people in

1281
01:23:53,080 --> 01:23:55,160
Speaker 1: the high school say, oh, that's Mary Chape and she's

1282
01:23:55,200 --> 01:23:57,839
Speaker 1: the person who plays the guitar or is it a secret?

1283
01:23:59,200 --> 01:24:01,960
Speaker 2: No, it wasn't a secret. I when you asked me

1284
01:24:02,000 --> 01:24:05,120
Speaker 2: if I liked being a boarding school or you know whatever.

1285
01:24:05,520 --> 01:24:10,040
Speaker 2: The first thing I thought of was the small group

1286
01:24:10,080 --> 01:24:13,519
Speaker 2: of friends that we'd all hang out, sitting out on

1287
01:24:13,560 --> 01:24:17,840
Speaker 2: the grass with our guitars, playing Paul Simon songs. You know,

1288
01:24:18,200 --> 01:24:22,160
Speaker 2: just we had our own thing, and it was all

1289
01:24:22,360 --> 01:24:26,360
Speaker 2: just I loved hang out with my friends who wanted

1290
01:24:26,360 --> 01:24:27,479
Speaker 2: to sing and play like me.

1291
01:24:29,360 --> 01:24:32,400
Speaker 1: So, now you go to college, you bring your guitar.

1292
01:24:32,640 --> 01:24:33,559
Speaker 1: What does that look like?

1293
01:24:34,439 --> 01:24:36,519
Speaker 2: Well, first I took a year off because I could

1294
01:24:36,560 --> 01:24:38,240
Speaker 2: not fathom being in college.

1295
01:24:38,240 --> 01:24:40,880
Speaker 1: O whit wait, wait, that's a very hip thing now,

1296
01:24:41,040 --> 01:24:42,200
Speaker 1: But it wasn't then.

1297
01:24:43,000 --> 01:24:43,720
Speaker 2: It wasn't.

1298
01:24:43,960 --> 01:24:46,680
Speaker 1: No gap year was a lot of thing would you

1299
01:24:46,720 --> 01:24:47,880
Speaker 1: do during your gap year?

1300
01:24:48,920 --> 01:24:53,640
Speaker 2: I did a Colorado outward bound ski mountaineering course. I

1301
01:24:53,720 --> 01:24:57,080
Speaker 2: drove myself. My grandmother had a car that she couldn't

1302
01:24:57,120 --> 01:25:00,000
Speaker 2: drive anymore, so I drove her car out to Colorado

1303
01:25:00,240 --> 01:25:05,040
Speaker 2: to Leadville, Colorado. But before that, I well, the whole

1304
01:25:05,080 --> 01:25:07,840
Speaker 2: reason that I had her car was because so I

1305
01:25:08,040 --> 01:25:12,040
Speaker 2: graduated from high school. And then that summer nineteen seventy six,

1306
01:25:12,520 --> 01:25:14,880
Speaker 2: I was on the grounds crew of the National Folk

1307
01:25:14,920 --> 01:25:17,519
Speaker 2: Life Festival. It was just the only job I could get,

1308
01:25:18,000 --> 01:25:22,800
Speaker 2: and every penny I earned from that, I put it

1309
01:25:22,840 --> 01:25:26,240
Speaker 2: in a savings account, and then when that job ended,

1310
01:25:28,439 --> 01:25:32,840
Speaker 2: I found a Volkswagen camper bus from a guy I

1311
01:25:32,840 --> 01:25:35,280
Speaker 2: was living in DC with my dad, and from a

1312
01:25:35,320 --> 01:25:38,120
Speaker 2: guy at the New Zealand Embassy who was selling it

1313
01:25:38,120 --> 01:25:41,559
Speaker 2: because he was going back to New Zealand. And I

1314
01:25:41,720 --> 01:25:43,880
Speaker 2: spent all the money I had made, which was two

1315
01:25:43,960 --> 01:25:47,800
Speaker 2: thousand dollars, and my plan was that I was going

1316
01:25:47,840 --> 01:25:50,280
Speaker 2: to spend the rest of my year off just traveling.

1317
01:25:50,360 --> 01:25:54,160
Speaker 2: And I had my camper and all these grand plans.

1318
01:25:54,680 --> 01:25:58,280
Speaker 2: And then the engine blew up a week after I

1319
01:25:58,280 --> 01:26:01,920
Speaker 2: bought it, and he was gone on and I couldn't

1320
01:26:01,920 --> 01:26:04,559
Speaker 2: afford to fix it, so I sold it for scrap.

1321
01:26:05,160 --> 01:26:08,800
Speaker 2: And then that's when I decided to drive out to

1322
01:26:08,800 --> 01:26:10,240
Speaker 2: Colorado in my grandmother's car.

1323
01:26:11,200 --> 01:26:14,880
Speaker 1: Traditionally, outward bound courses are relatively brief. How long was

1324
01:26:14,920 --> 01:26:15,679
Speaker 1: the one you were in?

1325
01:26:16,400 --> 01:26:16,840
Speaker 2: A month?

1326
01:26:18,080 --> 01:26:19,719
Speaker 1: Are you an outdoorsy person?

1327
01:26:20,840 --> 01:26:22,800
Speaker 2: I'd say so, yeah? Absolutely?

1328
01:26:23,880 --> 01:26:27,519
Speaker 1: Okay, So all this gap year, you're still playing the guitar,

1329
01:26:27,720 --> 01:26:28,759
Speaker 1: still writing songs?

1330
01:26:29,439 --> 01:26:29,799
Speaker 2: Yes?

1331
01:26:30,400 --> 01:26:35,360
Speaker 1: So now you show up at college yep? From minute one,

1332
01:26:35,400 --> 01:26:37,599
Speaker 1: are you the girl who plays a guitar and writes

1333
01:26:37,600 --> 01:26:38,360
Speaker 1: her own songs.

1334
01:26:40,080 --> 01:26:43,800
Speaker 2: I'm that person who's sitting in the stairwell or in

1335
01:26:43,840 --> 01:26:47,559
Speaker 2: the bathroom that has good acoustics, you know, playing and singing.

1336
01:26:47,640 --> 01:26:52,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, we're in this narrative. Now, let me ask

1337
01:26:52,520 --> 01:26:55,719
Speaker 1: a different way. When you're playing, whether it be in

1338
01:26:55,840 --> 01:27:00,800
Speaker 1: taffed or brown, is there any thought, well, this is

1339
01:27:00,840 --> 01:27:02,200
Speaker 1: what I want to do as a career.

1340
01:27:05,080 --> 01:27:08,160
Speaker 2: Honestly, I don't think I ever allowed myself to think

1341
01:27:08,200 --> 01:27:11,120
Speaker 2: about that because it just was too far fetched.

1342
01:27:12,000 --> 01:27:12,439
Speaker 1: I mean.

1343
01:27:15,320 --> 01:27:18,360
Speaker 2: No, never never thought for a second.

1344
01:27:18,760 --> 01:27:23,600
Speaker 1: Okay, so you're at college for four years. Are you

1345
01:27:23,720 --> 01:27:26,759
Speaker 1: performing outside of the bathroom and hallway?

1346
01:27:28,360 --> 01:27:32,320
Speaker 2: So what would happened? What happened was I'd be in

1347
01:27:32,360 --> 01:27:37,160
Speaker 2: college what fall, winter, and spring, and then I'd go

1348
01:27:37,320 --> 01:27:40,439
Speaker 2: home on the summers. I was living with my dad

1349
01:27:41,680 --> 01:27:47,439
Speaker 2: right off of Connecticut Avenue and DC, and he one

1350
01:27:47,560 --> 01:27:50,680
Speaker 2: night he came into my room and he said, why

1351
01:27:50,680 --> 01:27:52,800
Speaker 2: don't you go down to that bar that's down the

1352
01:27:52,800 --> 01:27:56,920
Speaker 2: street where they have an open mic night? And I

1353
01:27:56,960 --> 01:28:01,920
Speaker 2: was like, I don't, Oh, maybe maybe I could. I

1354
01:28:01,960 --> 01:28:08,280
Speaker 2: don't know. Well I did. I went down there, signed up.

1355
01:28:09,120 --> 01:28:11,439
Speaker 2: Never been so terrified in my life, but I did it,

1356
01:28:12,400 --> 01:28:17,439
Speaker 2: and then played a song or two and thought, well,

1357
01:28:17,479 --> 01:28:19,080
Speaker 2: this is okay, this is nice.

1358
01:28:19,120 --> 01:28:19,680
Speaker 1: I like this.

1359
01:28:20,240 --> 01:28:23,719
Speaker 2: And so every summer between college years, I would come home.

1360
01:28:24,400 --> 01:28:26,960
Speaker 2: The lady who ran that bar gave me a job

1361
01:28:27,000 --> 01:28:31,080
Speaker 2: on Thursday nights for forty bucks a night, and I

1362
01:28:31,080 --> 01:28:37,120
Speaker 2: could not believe it. I was getting paid to play music.

1363
01:28:37,280 --> 01:28:40,760
Speaker 1: Okay, let's go down. Hey, why are you staying with

1364
01:28:40,800 --> 01:28:42,559
Speaker 1: your father as opposed to your mother?

1365
01:28:44,720 --> 01:28:47,920
Speaker 2: Because I just felt like that was where I needed

1366
01:28:47,960 --> 01:28:52,720
Speaker 2: to be. My mom lived a few blocks away, and

1367
01:28:54,920 --> 01:28:56,880
Speaker 2: I just didn't feel like I was getting along with her.

1368
01:28:57,160 --> 01:29:01,840
Speaker 1: Okay, you go to the club at your father's, you know,

1369
01:29:02,040 --> 01:29:06,479
Speaker 1: bringing it up. Hey do you play original or covers?

1370
01:29:08,000 --> 01:29:11,360
Speaker 1: You say, hey, this is cool? Is there any reaction?

1371
01:29:12,560 --> 01:29:15,680
Speaker 1: The other people say, hey, that girls pretty good. Oh.

1372
01:29:15,720 --> 01:29:18,479
Speaker 2: I don't know what they said, but they didn't boom me.

1373
01:29:19,200 --> 01:29:22,200
Speaker 2: So I think I came away feeling like it was

1374
01:29:22,240 --> 01:29:26,360
Speaker 2: a a terrifying but positive experience.

1375
01:29:27,120 --> 01:29:30,720
Speaker 1: So ultimately, Thursday night, you are the sole musician on

1376
01:29:30,800 --> 01:29:31,519
Speaker 1: Thursday night?

1377
01:29:32,640 --> 01:29:35,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, eventually, eventually, not right away.

1378
01:29:35,800 --> 01:29:38,920
Speaker 1: So yeah, so how do you get from open mic

1379
01:29:39,560 --> 01:29:40,400
Speaker 1: to your own night?

1380
01:29:41,560 --> 01:29:46,080
Speaker 2: So I started going to this open mic more and

1381
01:29:46,120 --> 01:29:52,080
Speaker 2: more frequently, and to a few others around town, and

1382
01:29:52,960 --> 01:29:55,720
Speaker 2: it gave me a certain amount it had to. It

1383
01:29:55,760 --> 01:29:58,400
Speaker 2: gave me a certain amount of confidence, I guess. And

1384
01:29:58,439 --> 01:30:01,639
Speaker 2: then like the next that I was home for the summer,

1385
01:30:02,880 --> 01:30:07,040
Speaker 2: I remember going up to the proprietor of that bar,

1386
01:30:07,360 --> 01:30:09,559
Speaker 2: that first bar that i'd gone to, the open mic,

1387
01:30:10,000 --> 01:30:12,680
Speaker 2: and just asking, right because I knew that they had

1388
01:30:12,800 --> 01:30:16,879
Speaker 2: music every night, you know, different players, And I said,

1389
01:30:17,040 --> 01:30:20,920
Speaker 2: would you ever hire me to play you know, three

1390
01:30:20,960 --> 01:30:25,040
Speaker 2: sets or whatever it was? And she said, yeah, I'll

1391
01:30:25,040 --> 01:30:28,920
Speaker 2: give you Thursday nights. She just said yeah. And it's like,

1392
01:30:28,960 --> 01:30:33,320
Speaker 2: I just it's funny. I don't know, I don't know

1393
01:30:33,360 --> 01:30:35,160
Speaker 2: what I expected her to say, but I don't think

1394
01:30:35,160 --> 01:30:38,479
Speaker 2: I expected her or to say yes right right, you know,

1395
01:30:38,760 --> 01:30:44,320
Speaker 2: I just didn't and but she did, and that.

1396
01:30:43,800 --> 01:30:49,080
Speaker 1: That just that was lovely, Okay? Is that your personality?

1397
01:30:49,720 --> 01:30:53,280
Speaker 1: We are? However mildly you'll reach out for something or

1398
01:30:53,280 --> 01:30:54,920
Speaker 1: do you wait for things to come to you?

1399
01:30:58,040 --> 01:30:59,840
Speaker 2: I don't think that I wait for things to come

1400
01:30:59,840 --> 01:31:06,080
Speaker 2: to me. I think that I well, I do have

1401
01:31:06,120 --> 01:31:09,280
Speaker 2: a bit of a saying that I use in different situations.

1402
01:31:09,320 --> 01:31:12,519
Speaker 2: This is not precisely the same the right situation, but

1403
01:31:13,960 --> 01:31:17,639
Speaker 2: I would I use the saying replace worry with action.

1404
01:31:18,920 --> 01:31:22,960
Speaker 2: It's just like, you know, it's just yeah, I just

1405
01:31:23,000 --> 01:31:26,160
Speaker 2: think that I I mean, I'll think about something for

1406
01:31:26,200 --> 01:31:29,080
Speaker 2: a while, I'll consider something for a long time, but

1407
01:31:29,120 --> 01:31:32,160
Speaker 2: then at a certain point it's like I'm going to

1408
01:31:32,280 --> 01:31:36,439
Speaker 2: just ask the question now, or I'm going to make

1409
01:31:36,479 --> 01:31:38,280
Speaker 2: the inquiry. I'm going to find out.

1410
01:31:39,880 --> 01:31:43,160
Speaker 1: So you're playing on Thursday night? Two sets? Are these

1411
01:31:43,200 --> 01:31:46,120
Speaker 1: originals covers? Mix? What is it?

1412
01:31:46,120 --> 01:31:49,320
Speaker 2: It's a mix? It's like I I would sort of

1413
01:31:49,800 --> 01:31:53,040
Speaker 2: I would describe it as playing sort of acoustic top

1414
01:31:53,120 --> 01:31:57,799
Speaker 2: forty with a few originals sprinkled in and hope nobody

1415
01:31:57,840 --> 01:31:59,599
Speaker 2: would notice, which they didn't.

1416
01:32:00,680 --> 01:32:02,840
Speaker 1: Okay, so that is after you graduate, or that's the

1417
01:32:02,920 --> 01:32:03,519
Speaker 1: last summer.

1418
01:32:04,360 --> 01:32:07,879
Speaker 2: That's that's the that's the summers throughout college.

1419
01:32:09,040 --> 01:32:12,400
Speaker 1: Okay, So now you is there other than showing up

1420
01:32:12,479 --> 01:32:17,280
Speaker 1: getting your forty bucks? Is there anything happening anybody saying hey,

1421
01:32:17,360 --> 01:32:19,960
Speaker 1: I want to play with you or you know networking?

1422
01:32:20,000 --> 01:32:20,800
Speaker 1: Are you just there?

1423
01:32:22,200 --> 01:32:24,760
Speaker 2: There were a couple of people who were that I

1424
01:32:25,000 --> 01:32:28,679
Speaker 2: made friends with during the open mics that we would play,

1425
01:32:29,200 --> 01:32:34,280
Speaker 2: you know, you know, sort of have casual sort of

1426
01:32:34,320 --> 01:32:39,120
Speaker 2: like a duo or whatever, or or just get around

1427
01:32:39,120 --> 01:32:42,640
Speaker 2: and you know, sit around tables and play together, but

1428
01:32:42,800 --> 01:32:44,360
Speaker 2: nothing in a formal sense.

1429
01:32:45,240 --> 01:32:48,800
Speaker 1: So now you graduate, then what well?

1430
01:32:49,280 --> 01:32:54,400
Speaker 2: I do remember? I actually remember this. I remember another

1431
01:32:54,920 --> 01:32:58,200
Speaker 2: person I knew at college who was visiting DC and

1432
01:32:58,240 --> 01:33:01,160
Speaker 2: he came to the bar on the night that I

1433
01:33:01,240 --> 01:33:03,840
Speaker 2: was playing, and he was from I don't know where

1434
01:33:03,840 --> 01:33:06,400
Speaker 2: he was from originally, but he was all about he

1435
01:33:06,479 --> 01:33:08,720
Speaker 2: was living in LA or something, and he said, why

1436
01:33:08,760 --> 01:33:12,720
Speaker 2: aren't you moving to LA? And I remember going, I

1437
01:33:12,720 --> 01:33:15,280
Speaker 2: don't know, I don't want to live in LA. And

1438
01:33:15,360 --> 01:33:18,759
Speaker 2: he sort of made me whatever he said. I remember

1439
01:33:18,840 --> 01:33:20,800
Speaker 2: coming away from the conversation where it's sort of like,

1440
01:33:21,760 --> 01:33:24,599
Speaker 2: you know, he just believed he's one of those people

1441
01:33:24,600 --> 01:33:27,360
Speaker 2: that says you have to go to these places to

1442
01:33:27,479 --> 01:33:32,880
Speaker 2: be discovered or to get traction, and I was like,

1443
01:33:33,160 --> 01:33:37,200
Speaker 2: I kind of like what I like being where I

1444
01:33:37,240 --> 01:33:40,200
Speaker 2: am and I don't think I have it in me

1445
01:33:40,320 --> 01:33:44,240
Speaker 2: to move to a strange city. I just didn't never. Never,

1446
01:33:45,640 --> 01:33:47,800
Speaker 2: it was never something I felt like doing or wanted

1447
01:33:47,840 --> 01:33:48,080
Speaker 2: to do.

1448
01:33:49,720 --> 01:33:53,760
Speaker 1: So once again, you graduate from college, then would you Yeah?

1449
01:33:54,000 --> 01:33:57,320
Speaker 2: And then I was living in another group house in

1450
01:33:57,439 --> 01:34:02,880
Speaker 2: DC and just making my rent with open mics and

1451
01:34:03,520 --> 01:34:06,360
Speaker 2: one bar in particular where I would play on Friday

1452
01:34:06,479 --> 01:34:09,360
Speaker 2: nights and pass the hat, and I'd play from six

1453
01:34:09,439 --> 01:34:12,160
Speaker 2: to midnight passing the hat, and I could make my

1454
01:34:12,240 --> 01:34:16,120
Speaker 2: rent money on those nights. And so I did that

1455
01:34:16,160 --> 01:34:19,080
Speaker 2: for a long time, and then I reached a point

1456
01:34:19,120 --> 01:34:22,960
Speaker 2: where I like, after a couple of years, I'd say,

1457
01:34:23,880 --> 01:34:27,200
Speaker 2: I just in the my friends that I was sharing

1458
01:34:27,200 --> 01:34:29,479
Speaker 2: the group house with, they all had they sort of

1459
01:34:29,520 --> 01:34:34,080
Speaker 2: had careers that were starting to like real careers, and

1460
01:34:34,160 --> 01:34:40,519
Speaker 2: I was just kind of playing the open mics and

1461
01:34:41,360 --> 01:34:46,320
Speaker 2: doing temp jobs. And I realized at a certain point

1462
01:34:46,360 --> 01:34:47,560
Speaker 2: I was really depressed.

1463
01:34:47,680 --> 01:34:48,240
Speaker 1: I just.

1464
01:34:49,840 --> 01:34:53,120
Speaker 2: It's not like I had some vision of what was

1465
01:34:53,160 --> 01:34:56,280
Speaker 2: supposed at what my life was supposed to look like,

1466
01:34:56,479 --> 01:34:59,680
Speaker 2: but I just didn't really know what I wanted in

1467
01:34:59,720 --> 01:35:04,519
Speaker 2: my life. And I think I just saw I just decided, well,

1468
01:35:04,560 --> 01:35:07,120
Speaker 2: this is just what I am. Whatever I am doing

1469
01:35:07,240 --> 01:35:09,439
Speaker 2: is not making me happy, so I need to do

1470
01:35:09,479 --> 01:35:12,280
Speaker 2: something else. And so I this was back in the

1471
01:35:12,360 --> 01:35:15,360
Speaker 2: day when you would get out the want ads at

1472
01:35:15,360 --> 01:35:19,599
Speaker 2: the Washington Post, you know, turn the pages. And I

1473
01:35:19,640 --> 01:35:23,120
Speaker 2: remember looking for like a job, like a real job,

1474
01:35:23,920 --> 01:35:28,800
Speaker 2: and there was some consulting firm on K Street that

1475
01:35:30,600 --> 01:35:34,720
Speaker 2: gave me an interview as a researcher. You know, I

1476
01:35:34,760 --> 01:35:38,880
Speaker 2: could type, you know, all that stuff, and I had

1477
01:35:38,880 --> 01:35:44,320
Speaker 2: a brain. And I remember sitting with the woman who

1478
01:35:44,360 --> 01:35:46,720
Speaker 2: was interviewing me, and she said, if we were to

1479
01:35:46,720 --> 01:35:50,680
Speaker 2: offer you this job, how likely is it that you

1480
01:35:50,680 --> 01:35:52,479
Speaker 2: would take it? And I looked at her and I said,

1481
01:35:52,720 --> 01:35:56,800
Speaker 2: it's very likely. You know, I I'm ready to do this.

1482
01:35:58,080 --> 01:36:02,320
Speaker 2: And and then a week later, it was a Friday,

1483
01:36:03,120 --> 01:36:05,800
Speaker 2: she called me on the phone and she offered me

1484
01:36:05,880 --> 01:36:13,840
Speaker 2: the job formally, and I panicked, and I said, could

1485
01:36:13,880 --> 01:36:16,600
Speaker 2: I have the weekend to think about it? And I

1486
01:36:16,600 --> 01:36:20,120
Speaker 2: could hear how annoyed she was in her voice, but

1487
01:36:20,320 --> 01:36:25,000
Speaker 2: she said, okay, right, fine, And that weekend I just

1488
01:36:25,240 --> 01:36:27,559
Speaker 2: sort of had this come to Jesus kind of reckoning

1489
01:36:27,600 --> 01:36:33,200
Speaker 2: with myself, like I don't know, I don't know what

1490
01:36:33,320 --> 01:36:35,839
Speaker 2: I'm doing, but I just know that I'm not ready

1491
01:36:36,479 --> 01:36:38,880
Speaker 2: to do what that job is.

1492
01:36:40,400 --> 01:36:40,880
Speaker 1: And it was.

1493
01:36:40,840 --> 01:36:44,960
Speaker 2: Around that time that I had met this person named

1494
01:36:45,000 --> 01:36:51,439
Speaker 2: John Jennings, and you know, sidebar, he and I had

1495
01:36:51,479 --> 01:36:53,559
Speaker 2: dated for a while that didn't work out, but we

1496
01:36:53,640 --> 01:36:57,800
Speaker 2: remained friends. And he was a great musician and he

1497
01:36:57,880 --> 01:37:02,920
Speaker 2: had a studio in his basement and I remember it

1498
01:37:02,960 --> 01:37:06,920
Speaker 2: was very soon after I turned that job down that

1499
01:37:07,080 --> 01:37:09,479
Speaker 2: John said, well, let's just you know, let's make you

1500
01:37:09,720 --> 01:37:11,760
Speaker 2: let's make a demo tape. Let's make it, or no,

1501
01:37:11,880 --> 01:37:16,200
Speaker 2: let's make a tape that you can sell out of

1502
01:37:16,240 --> 01:37:19,320
Speaker 2: your back pocket at gigs. It's like an album, you know,

1503
01:37:19,320 --> 01:37:22,400
Speaker 2: you just make a cassette tape. Because people were doing that.

1504
01:37:22,520 --> 01:37:26,920
Speaker 2: It was the beginning of indie, you know. And so

1505
01:37:28,240 --> 01:37:35,519
Speaker 2: with his help and generosity and guidance and just beautiful spirit,

1506
01:37:37,040 --> 01:37:46,000
Speaker 2: he helped me make a record. And you know, fast

1507
01:37:46,040 --> 01:37:50,679
Speaker 2: forward a few a year or two, that record ended

1508
01:37:50,800 --> 01:37:55,760
Speaker 2: up in the hands of A and R gentleman. It's

1509
01:37:55,760 --> 01:38:02,000
Speaker 2: Sony in Nashville, and I got a record deal. Go figure.

1510
01:38:03,760 --> 01:38:08,360
Speaker 1: Okay, just to drill down a little bit, here, you

1511
01:38:08,479 --> 01:38:12,960
Speaker 1: make the tape you hear from the guy in Nashville

1512
01:38:13,000 --> 01:38:17,680
Speaker 1: from Sony. These things are never smooth. Time goes by,

1513
01:38:17,880 --> 01:38:20,800
Speaker 1: there's up and down, there's angst. I mean, what was

1514
01:38:20,920 --> 01:38:25,920
Speaker 1: really the experience from first hearing from him to putting

1515
01:38:25,960 --> 01:38:26,960
Speaker 1: your ink on paper.

1516
01:38:29,960 --> 01:38:34,040
Speaker 2: I honestly don't remember there being a period of time

1517
01:38:34,040 --> 01:38:39,040
Speaker 2: where it was like in doubt or close in doubt again,

1518
01:38:39,280 --> 01:38:41,160
Speaker 2: or close or it's gonna happen, or it's not going

1519
01:38:41,200 --> 01:38:44,639
Speaker 2: to happen. I just don't remember any sort of tumultuous

1520
01:38:46,360 --> 01:38:50,360
Speaker 2: period of time between the time they offered me a

1521
01:38:50,400 --> 01:38:53,479
Speaker 2: record deal and the time I signed. I just don't

1522
01:38:53,520 --> 01:38:54,080
Speaker 2: remember it.

1523
01:38:54,320 --> 01:38:59,160
Speaker 1: Okay, the guys in Nashville. Country music is morphed through

1524
01:38:59,200 --> 01:39:03,599
Speaker 1: a lot of things. Yes, since the nineties. Yeah, you're

1525
01:39:03,640 --> 01:39:07,680
Speaker 1: a girl from the East coast, goes with ivylea college

1526
01:39:07,960 --> 01:39:09,680
Speaker 1: guy signing out of Nashville. In the back of your

1527
01:39:09,720 --> 01:39:12,280
Speaker 1: mind said well, you know, this is country music.

1528
01:39:13,560 --> 01:39:17,000
Speaker 2: So I think part of the reason it happened is

1529
01:39:17,040 --> 01:39:26,080
Speaker 2: because he was new to Nashville. He had been an

1530
01:39:26,120 --> 01:39:29,280
Speaker 2: A and R person for Sony in the pop work,

1531
01:39:30,520 --> 01:39:34,599
Speaker 2: and he was I think they were starting to try

1532
01:39:34,640 --> 01:39:37,000
Speaker 2: to see that there was a lot of different things

1533
01:39:37,080 --> 01:39:40,880
Speaker 2: under the big umbrella of country music, and people like

1534
01:39:42,320 --> 01:39:46,200
Speaker 2: Steve Earle and Roseanne Cash and Lyle love It, Rodney

1535
01:39:46,240 --> 01:39:49,960
Speaker 2: Crowe and Guy Clark certainly, and just there was a

1536
01:39:50,040 --> 01:39:56,160
Speaker 2: lot of different strains, right, And I think they hired

1537
01:39:56,240 --> 01:39:59,479
Speaker 2: him because they I mean, I don't know, but I

1538
01:39:59,520 --> 01:40:05,000
Speaker 2: think they, you know, he was going to broaden the

1539
01:40:05,040 --> 01:40:08,160
Speaker 2: horizons of Sony music. I don't know, I don't know.

1540
01:40:08,560 --> 01:40:09,360
Speaker 2: I still don't know.

1541
01:40:09,880 --> 01:40:14,080
Speaker 1: Okay, so you're working with Sony, you make a record.

1542
01:40:14,560 --> 01:40:17,920
Speaker 1: Certainly at that time, and still with major labels today,

1543
01:40:18,600 --> 01:40:21,200
Speaker 1: they tend to put you to work. They tend to

1544
01:40:21,200 --> 01:40:25,400
Speaker 1: say do this, do that whatever. So before you had

1545
01:40:25,439 --> 01:40:30,840
Speaker 1: any commercial success, were you driven and were you you know,

1546
01:40:30,960 --> 01:40:34,160
Speaker 1: were you working showing up at radio stations, playing gigs?

1547
01:40:34,200 --> 01:40:34,400
Speaker 2: You know?

1548
01:40:34,479 --> 01:40:36,559
Speaker 1: To few people, well, what did that period look like?

1549
01:40:38,120 --> 01:40:41,800
Speaker 2: First of all, I didn't quit my day job for

1550
01:40:41,960 --> 01:40:46,479
Speaker 2: two after I had made two records, and then I quit.

1551
01:40:46,280 --> 01:40:47,960
Speaker 1: My day job. And the day job at that point

1552
01:40:48,000 --> 01:40:49,200
Speaker 1: was what it was.

1553
01:40:49,280 --> 01:40:53,679
Speaker 2: I was an administration assistant at a foundation at DuPont Cervo,

1554
01:40:54,960 --> 01:40:57,120
Speaker 2: and as long as I got my work done, you know,

1555
01:40:57,320 --> 01:40:59,599
Speaker 2: Like I just remember this one. We got a gig

1556
01:41:00,080 --> 01:41:02,240
Speaker 2: to open for Lyle love It in Chicago, so we

1557
01:41:02,320 --> 01:41:05,240
Speaker 2: all sort of like got in our cars and made

1558
01:41:05,280 --> 01:41:09,000
Speaker 2: a long weekend of it, drove out there, did the gig,

1559
01:41:09,240 --> 01:41:11,559
Speaker 2: came back, and I was back at the job on

1560
01:41:11,680 --> 01:41:14,360
Speaker 2: Monday morning. You know, it's like you figure out ways

1561
01:41:14,400 --> 01:41:15,080
Speaker 2: to make it work.

1562
01:41:15,160 --> 01:41:15,439
Speaker 1: It was.

1563
01:41:15,800 --> 01:41:18,080
Speaker 2: You know, it's the myth of the major label deal

1564
01:41:18,640 --> 01:41:20,680
Speaker 2: that you sign on the dotted line and they give

1565
01:41:20,720 --> 01:41:23,600
Speaker 2: you a tour bus and a budget, and you know,

1566
01:41:23,640 --> 01:41:27,680
Speaker 2: it's like, no, that was not my experience. And so,

1567
01:41:27,760 --> 01:41:30,720
Speaker 2: like I said, I didn't quit my job until and

1568
01:41:30,760 --> 01:41:33,320
Speaker 2: I didn't quit my job because of my record deal.

1569
01:41:33,320 --> 01:41:35,639
Speaker 2: I quit my job because I finally got a publishing deal.

1570
01:41:36,080 --> 01:41:39,200
Speaker 2: They paid me a small amount of money per week

1571
01:41:39,200 --> 01:41:41,240
Speaker 2: as long as I handed in whatever it was at

1572
01:41:41,240 --> 01:41:43,560
Speaker 2: that time, like ten songs over the course of a

1573
01:41:43,640 --> 01:41:46,280
Speaker 2: year or something like that. That's what allowed me to

1574
01:41:46,360 --> 01:41:46,960
Speaker 2: quit my job.

1575
01:41:47,160 --> 01:41:49,759
Speaker 1: That begs a question who owns those songs today?

1576
01:41:52,479 --> 01:41:54,080
Speaker 2: I can't remember the name of the company.

1577
01:41:54,400 --> 01:41:56,000
Speaker 1: Now let me let me put it in a couple

1578
01:41:56,000 --> 01:42:00,960
Speaker 1: of ways. Normally, you make a publishing deal. Modern publishing deals,

1579
01:42:01,280 --> 01:42:03,960
Speaker 1: they take half of the publisher's share, leaving you with

1580
01:42:04,040 --> 01:42:08,519
Speaker 1: seventy five percent. Now, these things tend to terminate where

1581
01:42:08,560 --> 01:42:10,920
Speaker 1: the artist after period of time owns one hundred percent.

1582
01:42:10,920 --> 01:42:13,200
Speaker 1: But certainly back then that might not be the case,

1583
01:42:13,479 --> 01:42:16,840
Speaker 1: where the publisher would continue to own an administer for

1584
01:42:16,920 --> 01:42:20,680
Speaker 1: the life and the copyright. So in terms forgetting the

1585
01:42:20,760 --> 01:42:25,840
Speaker 1: administrator the songs themselves, do you share them with a

1586
01:42:25,880 --> 01:42:27,960
Speaker 1: company or do you own them one hundred percent?

1587
01:42:28,800 --> 01:42:30,000
Speaker 2: I don't own them anymore.

1588
01:42:31,360 --> 01:42:34,120
Speaker 1: Okay, let me ask you a question. So in this

1589
01:42:34,400 --> 01:42:37,919
Speaker 1: craziness of the last five years you so called soldier catalog.

1590
01:42:40,479 --> 01:42:41,960
Speaker 1: What was the motivation there?

1591
01:42:46,960 --> 01:42:57,280
Speaker 2: Security just feeling like it was the right time and

1592
01:42:57,320 --> 01:43:01,800
Speaker 2: the right decision for my life, and certainly upon the

1593
01:43:01,840 --> 01:43:05,320
Speaker 2: advice of some really trusted people. It was certainly not

1594
01:43:05,439 --> 01:43:10,840
Speaker 2: an impulsive move. It was considered over a very long

1595
01:43:10,880 --> 01:43:11,759
Speaker 2: period of time.

1596
01:43:12,280 --> 01:43:15,280
Speaker 1: And did you make the kind of deal where you're done,

1597
01:43:15,400 --> 01:43:17,960
Speaker 1: done done, or do you still have any interest in

1598
01:43:18,000 --> 01:43:18,640
Speaker 1: the catalog?

1599
01:43:20,920 --> 01:43:22,040
Speaker 2: How would I have interest to me?

1600
01:43:22,360 --> 01:43:23,840
Speaker 1: Sometimes you sell seventy five percent.

1601
01:43:25,000 --> 01:43:27,880
Speaker 2: Oh no, I think I'm done, done done.

1602
01:43:27,960 --> 01:43:30,800
Speaker 1: Okay, So what'd you do with the money?

1603
01:43:31,000 --> 01:43:32,280
Speaker 2: None of your business?

1604
01:43:32,600 --> 01:43:37,639
Speaker 1: Well, I mean musicians are legendarily not good with money.

1605
01:43:38,120 --> 01:43:40,639
Speaker 1: So I know someone who made a very lucrative deal

1606
01:43:40,720 --> 01:43:43,559
Speaker 1: household name, and within two and a half years blew

1607
01:43:43,560 --> 01:43:45,440
Speaker 1: through all the money in lifestyle.

1608
01:43:46,000 --> 01:43:46,960
Speaker 2: This is someone that's crazy.

1609
01:43:47,040 --> 01:43:50,320
Speaker 1: So everybody knows this person. Then there are other people

1610
01:43:50,320 --> 01:43:53,400
Speaker 1: who say, well, I'm going to have a diversified thing,

1611
01:43:53,479 --> 01:43:55,639
Speaker 1: I'm going to have stocks, I'm going to have real estates,

1612
01:43:55,680 --> 01:43:57,760
Speaker 1: I'm bonds. Then there are other people say, oh, I

1613
01:43:57,760 --> 01:44:01,760
Speaker 1: always wanted a vacation house. So the real question is

1614
01:44:02,240 --> 01:44:06,600
Speaker 1: wherever the money was invested. Are these long term investments

1615
01:44:06,680 --> 01:44:09,400
Speaker 1: such that you don't worry about money you have to

1616
01:44:09,479 --> 01:44:12,160
Speaker 1: pay attention to the investments or did you say I

1617
01:44:12,160 --> 01:44:14,280
Speaker 1: mean I could tell already you didn't buy some big

1618
01:44:14,360 --> 01:44:17,720
Speaker 1: thing because that's not your lifestyle. But you know, did

1619
01:44:17,720 --> 01:44:19,960
Speaker 1: you hire a financial advisor and say, hey, I got

1620
01:44:20,160 --> 01:44:21,680
Speaker 1: X and you know, let's split it up.

1621
01:44:22,640 --> 01:44:27,320
Speaker 2: No, I'm very fortunate that I've had financial advice and

1622
01:44:27,400 --> 01:44:32,479
Speaker 2: guidance from my first record onward with a wonderful firm

1623
01:44:32,920 --> 01:44:36,360
Speaker 2: that are I truly believe I would have nothing without

1624
01:44:36,400 --> 01:44:39,479
Speaker 2: their guidance over these years. And so they've just been

1625
01:44:39,720 --> 01:44:43,559
Speaker 2: and they're very conservative, and you know, so I've just

1626
01:44:43,680 --> 01:44:48,479
Speaker 2: been very fortunate and grateful for them just being my shepherd,

1627
01:44:48,720 --> 01:44:54,040
Speaker 2: you know. And so it's just a it's you know,

1628
01:44:54,080 --> 01:44:57,160
Speaker 2: it sort of parked the money and it's you know,

1629
01:44:59,200 --> 01:45:02,720
Speaker 2: doing what it does us to keep me secure and

1630
01:45:03,960 --> 01:45:06,559
Speaker 2: allowed me to take care of others as well. And

1631
01:45:06,640 --> 01:45:09,680
Speaker 2: so it's just that's where it is.

1632
01:45:18,320 --> 01:45:21,120
Speaker 1: Okay, you don't have any children, and you do have

1633
01:45:21,240 --> 01:45:26,040
Speaker 1: relatives when you are gone, you want to spend it

1634
01:45:26,080 --> 01:45:28,680
Speaker 1: before you're gone, You want to leave some relatives. You

1635
01:45:28,680 --> 01:45:31,640
Speaker 1: want to have a foundation. You know, what's your perspective.

1636
01:45:32,479 --> 01:45:37,200
Speaker 2: I I know one person who used to say to me,

1637
01:45:37,640 --> 01:45:42,679
Speaker 2: a shroud has no pockets, and then I have another

1638
01:45:42,880 --> 01:45:48,519
Speaker 2: person who says to me, what the fuck do you

1639
01:45:48,840 --> 01:45:52,400
Speaker 2: work so hard and so long for to not enjoy

1640
01:45:52,439 --> 01:45:56,440
Speaker 2: it now? And I'm just caught between those two viewpoints.

1641
01:45:56,520 --> 01:46:00,160
Speaker 2: You know, I'm just I've just always found it hard

1642
01:46:00,200 --> 01:46:06,960
Speaker 2: to figure it out, and so I just kind of

1643
01:46:08,400 --> 01:46:11,080
Speaker 2: don't do anything about it. I just kind of try

1644
01:46:11,120 --> 01:46:17,120
Speaker 2: to live life in a smart way and try to

1645
01:46:17,160 --> 01:46:23,080
Speaker 2: be there for those who need me and just and

1646
01:46:23,600 --> 01:46:26,280
Speaker 2: be grateful. Really, I know I've said that a few

1647
01:46:26,280 --> 01:46:28,960
Speaker 2: times during this interview, but it's true.

1648
01:46:29,280 --> 01:46:32,880
Speaker 1: Okay, there are also royalties on the recordings. Did you

1649
01:46:32,920 --> 01:46:38,920
Speaker 1: sell those two? Oh? Yes? Okay, So at this point

1650
01:46:38,960 --> 01:46:44,000
Speaker 1: in time forgetting wanting to do you have to work?

1651
01:46:44,160 --> 01:46:46,679
Speaker 1: You say, well, god, you know I got mortgage payments,

1652
01:46:46,680 --> 01:46:48,280
Speaker 1: I wanted to put on an addition to the house.

1653
01:46:48,320 --> 01:46:50,880
Speaker 1: I better book a tour or is that all worked

1654
01:46:50,880 --> 01:46:52,880
Speaker 1: out where you can do what you want to without

1655
01:46:52,880 --> 01:46:54,960
Speaker 1: worrying about financial constraints.

1656
01:46:55,320 --> 01:46:59,559
Speaker 2: That's probably the greatest gift is that what I feel

1657
01:46:59,560 --> 01:47:04,280
Speaker 2: like it is enabled me to do is to do

1658
01:47:04,479 --> 01:47:10,479
Speaker 2: projects that aren't based on the transaction or a return,

1659
01:47:10,600 --> 01:47:16,439
Speaker 2: that that the the project itself is worth it if

1660
01:47:16,479 --> 01:47:20,519
Speaker 2: I want to do it artistically. And so in that way,

1661
01:47:20,880 --> 01:47:25,160
Speaker 2: it feels like total freedom, and it's not based on

1662
01:47:25,560 --> 01:47:29,160
Speaker 2: you know, how much it earns or how it gets paid.

1663
01:47:28,920 --> 01:47:31,760
Speaker 1: Back, and in terms of playing live, how much you

1664
01:47:31,840 --> 01:47:33,519
Speaker 1: want to work?

1665
01:47:34,400 --> 01:47:37,760
Speaker 2: Well, I love I you know all the you know,

1666
01:47:37,920 --> 01:47:40,479
Speaker 2: work keeps us young, it keeps us alive, all those

1667
01:47:40,479 --> 01:47:46,360
Speaker 2: things I I want to. I want to tour and

1668
01:47:46,439 --> 01:47:50,320
Speaker 2: work and write and make music and make songs and

1669
01:47:50,360 --> 01:47:54,160
Speaker 2: record and all of those things until i don't want

1670
01:47:54,200 --> 01:47:56,479
Speaker 2: to anymore. But I'm just nowhere near that.

1671
01:47:56,720 --> 01:47:59,040
Speaker 1: It's just let me be a little bit more specific.

1672
01:47:59,080 --> 01:48:02,360
Speaker 1: I didn't ask question. There are people who work forty

1673
01:48:02,439 --> 01:48:04,400
Speaker 1: days a year. There are people who work two hundred

1674
01:48:04,439 --> 01:48:06,880
Speaker 1: and seventy days a year. I'm talking about on the road.

1675
01:48:07,479 --> 01:48:09,320
Speaker 1: What's the number that works for you.

1676
01:48:10,680 --> 01:48:13,879
Speaker 2: It's different every year. It's different based on the project,

1677
01:48:13,960 --> 01:48:20,240
Speaker 2: I think, and it's different based on you know, whether

1678
01:48:20,360 --> 01:48:24,280
Speaker 2: my other hand needs an operation or I need to

1679
01:48:24,320 --> 01:48:27,400
Speaker 2: get my shoulder replaced, and you know, just all the things.

1680
01:48:27,439 --> 01:48:32,080
Speaker 2: So I would you know, every year is different. But

1681
01:48:33,200 --> 01:48:36,800
Speaker 2: I will say that over you know, over time, the

1682
01:48:36,880 --> 01:48:39,360
Speaker 2: tradition to like go out in the summer, for example,

1683
01:48:40,760 --> 01:48:43,160
Speaker 2: it just doesn't feel like summer unless I'm out there,

1684
01:48:44,439 --> 01:48:48,400
Speaker 2: like playing a wolf trap for example, in every August

1685
01:48:48,720 --> 01:48:53,360
Speaker 2: just feels like home. And it's I have so much

1686
01:48:53,479 --> 01:48:56,760
Speaker 2: joy from that, and I have so I get so

1687
01:48:56,960 --> 01:49:01,760
Speaker 2: much from I mean, this is the God's truth. It's

1688
01:49:01,880 --> 01:49:06,040
Speaker 2: so much from the connection with people.

1689
01:49:06,680 --> 01:49:06,960
Speaker 1: You know.

1690
01:49:07,080 --> 01:49:10,720
Speaker 2: It's like it's not just plug in and play and

1691
01:49:10,760 --> 01:49:14,679
Speaker 2: say a few witty things if you're lucky. It's about

1692
01:49:15,040 --> 01:49:20,599
Speaker 2: feeling connected and in community with people. And I've never

1693
01:49:20,680 --> 01:49:23,120
Speaker 2: felt like I needed that more than I need right

1694
01:49:23,160 --> 01:49:25,519
Speaker 2: now in terms of the shit show that we're in

1695
01:49:25,520 --> 01:49:29,880
Speaker 2: in this country and what life feels like. It's like

1696
01:49:30,040 --> 01:49:32,600
Speaker 2: I need, I need to feel like I'm with like

1697
01:49:32,680 --> 01:49:33,439
Speaker 2: minded souls.

1698
01:49:35,120 --> 01:49:38,400
Speaker 1: Okay, just going back to your recording career in its

1699
01:49:38,400 --> 01:49:41,559
Speaker 1: early days, what was it like when you had a hit?

1700
01:49:45,640 --> 01:49:50,400
Speaker 2: Like it was are you kidding me? Are you joking?

1701
01:49:52,040 --> 01:49:57,040
Speaker 2: Is this a joke? Like yeah, it's like that's to

1702
01:49:57,120 --> 01:50:00,720
Speaker 2: this day, That's how I feel. It's not you know,

1703
01:50:00,800 --> 01:50:06,320
Speaker 2: I'm not trying to be overly humble or crazy. I

1704
01:50:06,479 --> 01:50:09,759
Speaker 2: just it's like it just never was anything I ever

1705
01:50:10,120 --> 01:50:12,040
Speaker 2: ever ever imagined.

1706
01:50:12,160 --> 01:50:12,920
Speaker 1: What happened to me?

1707
01:50:14,600 --> 01:50:15,520
Speaker 2: Just bonkers.

1708
01:50:16,040 --> 01:50:19,839
Speaker 1: And then you're a private, as you put it, hermit.

1709
01:50:21,000 --> 01:50:23,240
Speaker 1: Certainly for a while, the area every time you turn,

1710
01:50:23,320 --> 01:50:25,479
Speaker 1: you bumped into you were a story about it. What

1711
01:50:25,560 --> 01:50:27,000
Speaker 1: was that like for you? Emotionally?

1712
01:50:27,880 --> 01:50:31,880
Speaker 2: I I have always had, I continue to have, and

1713
01:50:31,960 --> 01:50:36,040
Speaker 2: I certainly had it back then, the most awkward and

1714
01:50:36,240 --> 01:50:43,120
Speaker 2: uncomfortable relationship with success or fame or whatever you want

1715
01:50:43,160 --> 01:50:48,439
Speaker 2: to call it. Just it's just been so you know,

1716
01:50:48,600 --> 01:50:52,880
Speaker 2: I'm just oh my god, just the contortions I would

1717
01:50:53,320 --> 01:50:56,080
Speaker 2: put myself through just having to do meet and greets

1718
01:50:56,200 --> 01:51:03,200
Speaker 2: and you know, you know, walking backstage before the show

1719
01:51:03,240 --> 01:51:06,320
Speaker 2: and having fifty people lined up in the radio stations

1720
01:51:06,360 --> 01:51:09,559
Speaker 2: and all that. It's just like I just wasn't cut

1721
01:51:09,600 --> 01:51:12,439
Speaker 2: out for it. I was just I mean, I I

1722
01:51:12,479 --> 01:51:15,280
Speaker 2: love meeting people, but I'm just not a you know

1723
01:51:15,280 --> 01:51:16,400
Speaker 2: what I mean, I'm not.

1724
01:51:18,040 --> 01:51:20,320
Speaker 1: You don't want anything superficial. If you want to meet him,

1725
01:51:20,360 --> 01:51:21,400
Speaker 1: you want to meet him for real.

1726
01:51:22,320 --> 01:51:25,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess, I guess it's just it was just hard.

1727
01:51:25,960 --> 01:51:28,280
Speaker 2: It was always hard. But also it's just like that

1728
01:51:28,400 --> 01:51:32,559
Speaker 2: white hot light of attention that's on you, and I'm

1729
01:51:32,600 --> 01:51:36,479
Speaker 2: just in the grocery store trying to buy groceries, and

1730
01:51:36,520 --> 01:51:39,679
Speaker 2: people would come up to me, and ninety nine point

1731
01:51:39,840 --> 01:51:42,519
Speaker 2: nine percent of the people are so nice and so

1732
01:51:42,760 --> 01:51:46,000
Speaker 2: lovely and so kind and they just want to say hi,

1733
01:51:46,240 --> 01:51:51,320
Speaker 2: you know, but I'm just like, whoa, what just happened?

1734
01:51:51,400 --> 01:51:57,040
Speaker 2: You know? Just you know, it's just it's not something

1735
01:51:57,080 --> 01:52:03,280
Speaker 2: I ever. It's like, I remember there's an Ann Tyler.

1736
01:52:03,479 --> 01:52:06,719
Speaker 2: That Ann Tyler, I forget. I thought it was Ann Tyler,

1737
01:52:07,200 --> 01:52:10,000
Speaker 2: but she said I had some paraphrasing. I had a

1738
01:52:10,080 --> 01:52:14,839
Speaker 2: misunderstanding about fame. I always imagined it was me entering

1739
01:52:14,960 --> 01:52:19,160
Speaker 2: other people's lives, not there entering mine, And I thought

1740
01:52:19,200 --> 01:52:20,960
Speaker 2: that I related to that.

1741
01:52:22,880 --> 01:52:29,840
Speaker 1: Okay, when commercial success declines, how do you cope with

1742
01:52:29,880 --> 01:52:32,800
Speaker 1: that natitude? You feel like the label has moved on,

1743
01:52:33,120 --> 01:52:36,160
Speaker 1: or the world has moved on, or it's unjust or

1744
01:52:36,200 --> 01:52:38,400
Speaker 1: it's time. What was that like?

1745
01:52:39,439 --> 01:52:43,800
Speaker 2: I remember very clearly a record that I had made

1746
01:52:44,040 --> 01:52:48,479
Speaker 2: and submitted to Sony, and they came back after I

1747
01:52:48,479 --> 01:52:53,360
Speaker 2: had submitted the songs, and they just there was one song,

1748
01:52:53,400 --> 01:52:59,680
Speaker 2: for example, where we had it was Oh my gosh,

1749
01:52:59,840 --> 01:53:07,000
Speaker 2: it was an instrument, an electric citar. It was just

1750
01:53:07,120 --> 01:53:10,200
Speaker 2: like this cool sound, and they're like, you have to

1751
01:53:10,240 --> 01:53:17,040
Speaker 2: take that off? What huh? And they're like, you have

1752
01:53:17,120 --> 01:53:19,920
Speaker 2: to take that off. Oh, and you need to take

1753
01:53:19,960 --> 01:53:22,120
Speaker 2: the horns off of that other song too, And I

1754
01:53:22,200 --> 01:53:26,240
Speaker 2: was like why and they say, because no one's going

1755
01:53:26,320 --> 01:53:31,000
Speaker 2: to play it on country radio. And I'm like, says,

1756
01:53:31,040 --> 01:53:36,160
Speaker 2: who I mean, just based on just because you woke

1757
01:53:36,240 --> 01:53:39,719
Speaker 2: up this morning and think that, or just well research,

1758
01:53:40,360 --> 01:53:42,760
Speaker 2: they say, And it was like, you know, that was

1759
01:53:42,800 --> 01:53:46,280
Speaker 2: my introduction to oh this. We have research groups and

1760
01:53:46,560 --> 01:53:49,439
Speaker 2: you know, we played them six seconds of a song

1761
01:53:49,479 --> 01:53:51,200
Speaker 2: and they tell us whether it's a thumbs up or

1762
01:53:51,240 --> 01:53:53,880
Speaker 2: a thumbs down based on six seconds or whatever it was.

1763
01:53:53,960 --> 01:53:57,200
Speaker 2: And I was just like, this is so crazy. And

1764
01:53:57,240 --> 01:53:59,400
Speaker 2: then and also just like, wait a minute, I just

1765
01:53:59,439 --> 01:54:01,839
Speaker 2: heard a Reaba mamac and Tire song that has horns

1766
01:54:01,840 --> 01:54:03,360
Speaker 2: on it. Why are you telling me I can't have

1767
01:54:03,400 --> 01:54:06,559
Speaker 2: horns on it? It just there was no answers to that,

1768
01:54:07,439 --> 01:54:10,240
Speaker 2: and so it got kind of just like in the

1769
01:54:10,280 --> 01:54:13,640
Speaker 2: weeds that way a lot, and it just felt like

1770
01:54:14,160 --> 01:54:18,360
Speaker 2: this isn't this. You know, I'm so grateful for everything

1771
01:54:18,640 --> 01:54:22,479
Speaker 2: they did for me and everything that we accomplished together.

1772
01:54:22,600 --> 01:54:26,200
Speaker 2: It's like a marriage, you know, but then it started

1773
01:54:26,240 --> 01:54:31,160
Speaker 2: to feel like we weren't getting along, and it felt

1774
01:54:31,280 --> 01:54:34,800
Speaker 2: right to finally not re up with them after it

1775
01:54:34,840 --> 01:54:38,000
Speaker 2: was like twenty years or something, and it felt.

1776
01:54:37,720 --> 01:54:38,400
Speaker 1: It was sad.

1777
01:54:39,040 --> 01:54:42,720
Speaker 2: I was really sad. But I also felt like, you know,

1778
01:54:43,040 --> 01:54:48,160
Speaker 2: we all have chapters. Life is about chapters, and I

1779
01:54:48,200 --> 01:54:50,800
Speaker 2: was ready for the next chapter. So I didn't feel

1780
01:54:53,000 --> 01:54:57,560
Speaker 2: I didn't mourn that in a It wasn't it wasn't debilitating.

1781
01:54:57,640 --> 01:54:59,560
Speaker 2: It just felt like it was time to be brave

1782
01:54:59,600 --> 01:55:00,840
Speaker 2: and go to the next chapter.

1783
01:55:02,680 --> 01:55:07,240
Speaker 1: So what about the world today, Well, what do you think?

1784
01:55:09,040 --> 01:55:13,920
Speaker 1: I mean, I'll make it very short going on the record. Yeah, yes,

1785
01:55:14,040 --> 01:55:19,080
Speaker 1: I believe that Trump is an autocrat dictator. I would

1786
01:55:19,200 --> 01:55:21,480
Speaker 1: like to see change. I do not believe in the

1787
01:55:21,560 --> 01:55:25,800
Speaker 1: system anymore. System has had some victories as we speak,

1788
01:55:25,880 --> 01:55:29,960
Speaker 1: but I don't believe in it, and anybody who's from

1789
01:55:30,080 --> 01:55:33,280
Speaker 1: the older generations isn't really going to do anything because

1790
01:55:33,280 --> 01:55:36,000
Speaker 1: they don't want to put their money at risk. So

1791
01:55:36,040 --> 01:55:39,440
Speaker 1: the only change I am waiting for an Arab spring

1792
01:55:39,560 --> 01:55:44,760
Speaker 1: moment from Generation Z who the government and the institutions

1793
01:55:44,760 --> 01:55:46,280
Speaker 1: are completely out of touch. I mean, at root, you

1794
01:55:46,360 --> 01:55:50,160
Speaker 1: have incommitted quality. In addition to the government, and I

1795
01:55:50,240 --> 01:55:53,440
Speaker 1: would hope then, because I have no hope that through

1796
01:55:53,560 --> 01:55:57,560
Speaker 1: evolution in the process, it will work out.

1797
01:56:00,360 --> 01:56:05,920
Speaker 2: I don't disagree with really anything you said. I was

1798
01:56:05,960 --> 01:56:08,200
Speaker 2: thinking about, well, I think about it all the time.

1799
01:56:08,240 --> 01:56:15,360
Speaker 2: But like I was listening to a podcast today where

1800
01:56:18,560 --> 01:56:23,120
Speaker 2: one of the hosts was talking about how she had

1801
01:56:23,920 --> 01:56:25,840
Speaker 2: Did you ever listen to the Political gab Fest?

1802
01:56:26,360 --> 01:56:27,120
Speaker 1: No podcast?

1803
01:56:27,480 --> 01:56:32,200
Speaker 2: Okay, it's great. And Emily Basilon, who's a writer, she's

1804
01:56:32,200 --> 01:56:33,920
Speaker 2: a teacher at Yale, but she's also a writer for

1805
01:56:33,920 --> 01:56:36,040
Speaker 2: the New York Times. So she just published this article

1806
01:56:36,120 --> 01:56:39,040
Speaker 2: with one of her colleagues last week that was like

1807
01:56:39,080 --> 01:56:46,200
Speaker 2: an oral history of that. They interviewed a really like

1808
01:56:47,280 --> 01:56:51,480
Speaker 2: all these prime they had They were lawyers who had

1809
01:56:51,520 --> 01:56:55,560
Speaker 2: worked for the Justice Justice Department, but they had either

1810
01:56:55,600 --> 01:56:59,440
Speaker 2: been fired or they left on their own accord whatever.

1811
01:56:59,680 --> 01:57:02,200
Speaker 2: You know, there's a huge amount of people who have left.

1812
01:57:03,000 --> 01:57:08,320
Speaker 2: And they were talking about when Trump is finally out

1813
01:57:08,320 --> 01:57:14,120
Speaker 2: of office, whatever that looks like. And she was saying

1814
01:57:14,320 --> 01:57:18,200
Speaker 2: from her standpoint as a lawyer that these were people

1815
01:57:18,200 --> 01:57:22,760
Speaker 2: who these were their dream jobs. They loved their work,

1816
01:57:22,880 --> 01:57:26,120
Speaker 2: they loved what they did, and they believed in the mission.

1817
01:57:27,920 --> 01:57:32,320
Speaker 2: And then the conversation was about is it possible once

1818
01:57:32,840 --> 01:57:41,480
Speaker 2: this administration is over, assuming a democratic administration comes in,

1819
01:57:41,840 --> 01:57:44,000
Speaker 2: is there going to be tit for tat? Is there

1820
01:57:44,040 --> 01:57:47,760
Speaker 2: going to be another sort of upheaval throwing people out,

1821
01:57:48,520 --> 01:57:52,600
Speaker 2: or is it possible to build back not to use

1822
01:57:52,600 --> 01:57:58,000
Speaker 2: that phrase, but to reconstruct what was so great and

1823
01:57:58,120 --> 01:58:04,520
Speaker 2: meaningful and important about the Justice Department again, And her

1824
01:58:04,840 --> 01:58:07,680
Speaker 2: sense from all these people that she interviewed was that

1825
01:58:07,720 --> 01:58:10,960
Speaker 2: it's not possible. I believe that's what she said. And

1826
01:58:11,040 --> 01:58:15,160
Speaker 2: I just you think about that, you frame, you use

1827
01:58:15,200 --> 01:58:18,800
Speaker 2: that sort of question and apply it to other aspects

1828
01:58:18,800 --> 01:58:24,600
Speaker 2: of our culture and our government and everything, and it's like,

1829
01:58:24,880 --> 01:58:33,040
Speaker 2: I like, on my worst days, I like you say,

1830
01:58:33,120 --> 01:58:35,200
Speaker 2: you know it's going to be about evolution and gen

1831
01:58:35,280 --> 01:58:40,520
Speaker 2: z and all this. I don't know how we regain

1832
01:58:40,640 --> 01:58:48,000
Speaker 2: trust in institutions and how we rid ourselves of the

1833
01:58:48,200 --> 01:58:53,560
Speaker 2: cancers of ideology that are out there and driving you know,

1834
01:58:55,520 --> 01:58:58,680
Speaker 2: just oh my god, just the announcement today that the

1835
01:58:58,760 --> 01:59:04,040
Speaker 2: CDC has posted on his website scientifically false claims. You

1836
01:59:04,080 --> 01:59:10,760
Speaker 2: know that ideology overrides evidence, you know, scientific evidence. I mean,

1837
01:59:10,800 --> 01:59:12,960
Speaker 2: it's just how do we fix that effort? You know,

1838
01:59:13,000 --> 01:59:15,720
Speaker 2: how are we ever going to fix that. It's a

1839
01:59:15,800 --> 01:59:19,520
Speaker 2: rhetorical question. I just I don't know, and I fear

1840
01:59:20,560 --> 01:59:26,720
Speaker 2: and grieve for our country and its institutions and most

1841
01:59:26,800 --> 01:59:29,839
Speaker 2: of all the American people. It's crazy.

1842
01:59:31,480 --> 01:59:33,160
Speaker 1: Well, I think we're going to leave it at that.

1843
01:59:33,640 --> 01:59:35,480
Speaker 1: I certainly could talk, but then we'll go on for

1844
01:59:35,480 --> 01:59:36,520
Speaker 1: an hour about this.

1845
01:59:36,880 --> 01:59:38,800
Speaker 2: What an uplifting thing to leave it?

1846
01:59:39,280 --> 01:59:43,160
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess for me, I'm reinforcing something I

1847
01:59:43,200 --> 01:59:48,480
Speaker 1: said earlier incommun equality and the generation gap. I'm a

1848
01:59:48,560 --> 01:59:53,520
Speaker 1: news hound. You cannot read a publication for educated people

1849
01:59:54,000 --> 01:59:58,160
Speaker 1: that does not constantly be rate technology and thinks the

1850
01:59:58,280 --> 02:00:03,000
Speaker 1: smartphone is the devil. We are here speaking across the

1851
02:00:03,080 --> 02:00:06,680
Speaker 1: country as results of technology. I grew up in an

1852
02:00:06,720 --> 02:00:11,040
Speaker 1: era where television was a devil, people still watched it, right,

1853
02:00:11,200 --> 02:00:15,320
Speaker 1: So until you come into the present, and then of

1854
02:00:15,360 --> 02:00:18,640
Speaker 1: course the next question. I mean, it's as simple to you.

1855
02:00:18,720 --> 02:00:22,920
Speaker 1: One can simply say, there are everyone is getting their

1856
02:00:23,000 --> 02:00:29,160
Speaker 1: news they want whatever, as opposed to one cohesive channel

1857
02:00:29,440 --> 02:00:31,200
Speaker 1: or as you know, a few channels like in the

1858
02:00:31,280 --> 02:00:37,240
Speaker 1: old days of networks. But the underlying problem of living

1859
02:00:37,280 --> 02:00:41,920
Speaker 1: in a tower of Babbel society. Listen, the legal system

1860
02:00:41,960 --> 02:00:45,240
Speaker 1: is always going to be behind technology and you just

1861
02:00:45,320 --> 02:00:49,480
Speaker 1: can't demonize this. But you can't. This is like Spotify.

1862
02:00:49,520 --> 02:00:51,720
Speaker 1: I don't want to make this about Spotify money.

1863
02:00:51,840 --> 02:00:56,280
Speaker 2: Oh God, please please evil Spotify. Okay, no, but yeah.

1864
02:00:56,400 --> 02:01:01,760
Speaker 1: Prior to Spotify, we had the record companies saying P

1865
02:01:01,920 --> 02:01:07,440
Speaker 1: two P was theft and revenues were going down. Spotify

1866
02:01:07,680 --> 02:01:10,919
Speaker 1: said we are going to get ahead of the consumer.

1867
02:01:11,120 --> 02:01:13,920
Speaker 1: I haven't used this analogy in a long time. You

1868
02:01:13,960 --> 02:01:19,720
Speaker 1: grow up and you watch Westerns. The robbers come in

1869
02:01:19,800 --> 02:01:23,840
Speaker 1: and take money from the bank and the elders town

1870
02:01:23,880 --> 02:01:27,840
Speaker 1: elders to get together. They don't say, you know, we're

1871
02:01:27,880 --> 02:01:31,280
Speaker 1: gonna build a really big megaphone and put it on

1872
02:01:31,320 --> 02:01:33,960
Speaker 1: top of the bank and yell bring the money back.

1873
02:01:35,200 --> 02:01:38,080
Speaker 1: They always say the same thing in every one of

1874
02:01:38,120 --> 02:01:43,400
Speaker 1: these movies. We're gonna cut them off at the pass. So,

1875
02:01:43,960 --> 02:01:47,880
Speaker 1: without making about who's making money from Spotify here or other,

1876
02:01:48,480 --> 02:01:52,120
Speaker 1: it was ahead of most people's thinking, well, you know

1877
02:01:52,200 --> 02:01:53,760
Speaker 1: what if I'm out you know in tim Buck too,

1878
02:01:53,880 --> 02:01:55,760
Speaker 1: and I don't know electricity, well you can, you know,

1879
02:01:56,280 --> 02:01:59,800
Speaker 1: you can down those those things. So it got ahead

1880
02:01:59,840 --> 02:02:03,839
Speaker 1: of the consumer. The only they way all these issues

1881
02:02:03,880 --> 02:02:06,920
Speaker 1: work if there's some deep thinkers say, listen, where we

1882
02:02:07,000 --> 02:02:11,959
Speaker 1: are is chaos. Let's go beyond and say let's corral

1883
02:02:12,040 --> 02:02:14,720
Speaker 1: the people into this new thing. Instead, you have people

1884
02:02:14,960 --> 02:02:18,160
Speaker 1: from our demo just saying, you know, God, you just

1885
02:02:18,200 --> 02:02:21,680
Speaker 1: gotta put down the phone. I mean, this makes me crazy.

1886
02:02:21,680 --> 02:02:24,600
Speaker 1: There's nothing better than the phone. I mean connect Listen.

1887
02:02:25,440 --> 02:02:28,480
Speaker 1: I would not call I would not call myself a hermit,

1888
02:02:29,040 --> 02:02:32,160
Speaker 1: but I would not say that I connect with all people. Okay,

1889
02:02:32,880 --> 02:02:36,160
Speaker 1: And as a result of the Internet, I can connect

1890
02:02:36,160 --> 02:02:38,200
Speaker 1: with like minded people. It's the greatest thing that ever

1891
02:02:38,280 --> 02:02:38,800
Speaker 1: happened for me.

1892
02:02:39,600 --> 02:02:42,320
Speaker 2: I am not a luddite in any way, shape or form.

1893
02:02:43,000 --> 02:02:49,960
Speaker 2: I love what I have been able to learn, engage

1894
02:02:50,000 --> 02:02:57,800
Speaker 2: in discover bathe in choral music from everywhere, you know,

1895
02:02:58,000 --> 02:03:02,040
Speaker 2: just all the things that technology allows me to do.

1896
02:03:02,440 --> 02:03:04,600
Speaker 2: But this is what I do say at the end

1897
02:03:04,640 --> 02:03:08,520
Speaker 2: of shows, which is, and it's not meant to sound ceremony,

1898
02:03:08,760 --> 02:03:12,080
Speaker 2: but this is. But I do want to I would

1899
02:03:12,120 --> 02:03:14,160
Speaker 2: be happier to leave on this note than.

1900
02:03:14,240 --> 02:03:17,120
Speaker 1: The Okay, then we'll make this the final statement.

1901
02:03:16,800 --> 02:03:20,320
Speaker 2: Okay, which is you know, there we are in this

1902
02:03:20,440 --> 02:03:23,560
Speaker 2: room with all these people that have gathered for a show,

1903
02:03:23,760 --> 02:03:25,560
Speaker 2: and that's the end of the show and what and

1904
02:03:25,600 --> 02:03:29,160
Speaker 2: I have one more song to sing, And I say,

1905
02:03:29,200 --> 02:03:34,800
Speaker 2: you know, we've all got these devices in our back pockets.

1906
02:03:34,920 --> 02:03:37,640
Speaker 2: And the truth is is that you can pull that

1907
02:03:37,720 --> 02:03:40,560
Speaker 2: device out and in the wink of an eye, you

1908
02:03:40,640 --> 02:03:46,120
Speaker 2: can you can find any book, any painting, any poem,

1909
02:03:46,440 --> 02:03:50,160
Speaker 2: any passage of music, any movie. You can find your

1910
02:03:50,280 --> 02:03:57,120
Speaker 2: heart's desire on that device in seconds. But in my opinion,

1911
02:03:57,240 --> 02:03:59,960
Speaker 2: there'll never be a substitute for what it feels like

1912
02:04:00,360 --> 02:04:04,480
Speaker 2: to be all together in this room going on a

1913
02:04:04,560 --> 02:04:08,880
Speaker 2: musical journey together. And so to me, it's great to

1914
02:04:08,920 --> 02:04:11,960
Speaker 2: have the device. It's great when you're walking out the

1915
02:04:12,000 --> 02:04:16,520
Speaker 2: door whatever, But this experience right here, there's never going

1916
02:04:16,600 --> 02:04:19,440
Speaker 2: to be a substitute for it, and I for one

1917
02:04:19,720 --> 02:04:21,400
Speaker 2: celebrate that well.

1918
02:04:22,280 --> 02:04:27,040
Speaker 1: Although you're making that statement, that's what has happened. Experience

1919
02:04:27,160 --> 02:04:31,800
Speaker 1: is king without making about where artists earn their living.

1920
02:04:31,880 --> 02:04:35,360
Speaker 1: Forget that people want to go to the show. They

1921
02:04:35,400 --> 02:04:38,440
Speaker 1: want to have that experience more than ever, And certainly

1922
02:04:38,480 --> 02:04:42,440
Speaker 1: studies have told us younger generations are more into experiences

1923
02:04:42,920 --> 02:04:46,240
Speaker 1: than things. I guess you know, I agree with what

1924
02:04:46,280 --> 02:04:48,680
Speaker 1: you're saying, and it's all reasonable just as long as

1925
02:04:48,720 --> 02:04:49,919
Speaker 1: people don't make it either.

1926
02:04:49,880 --> 02:04:54,480
Speaker 2: Or yeah, no, I just I want both. I absolutely

1927
02:04:54,520 --> 02:04:57,560
Speaker 2: want both. I want all the things that the device

1928
02:04:57,600 --> 02:05:02,960
Speaker 2: will bring me because I've gained so much. But at

1929
02:05:02,960 --> 02:05:05,560
Speaker 2: the same time, I also want that experience. I want

1930
02:05:05,600 --> 02:05:08,480
Speaker 2: that community, I want that connection. I want it to

1931
02:05:08,520 --> 02:05:11,120
Speaker 2: be the antidote to the device.

1932
02:05:12,400 --> 02:05:16,680
Speaker 1: Bottom bing, you get the last word, Mary Chapin, thanks

1933
02:05:16,720 --> 02:05:19,080
Speaker 1: for taking the time to speak with me and my audience.

1934
02:05:19,120 --> 02:05:20,960
Speaker 1: I really appreciate it.

1935
02:05:20,960 --> 02:05:23,320
Speaker 2: It's a pleasure. Thank you for chatting with me.

1936
02:05:23,960 --> 02:05:26,800
Speaker 1: Until next time. This is Bob left six