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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of I Heart Grading. Hello, welcome back to the show.

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Speaker 1: My name is Matt, my name is all. They called

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Speaker 1: me Ben. We're joined as always with our superproducer Alexis

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Speaker 1: code named Doc Holiday Jackson. Most importantly, you are you.

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Speaker 1: You are here, and that makes this the stuff they

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Speaker 1: don't want you to know. We're going to some strange

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Speaker 1: places today, folks were going to the very heights of

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Speaker 1: global wealth. There's some interesting statements that came out of Davos.

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Speaker 1: We're going to some very dark places related to the

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Speaker 1: ongoing invasion of Ukraine, but not ut in the way

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Speaker 1: you would expect. We're also touching on the horrifying stories

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Speaker 1: of serial murders. And before we do any of that,

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Speaker 1: shout out to all our conspiracy realists in the crowd,

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Speaker 1: many of whom are artists. You have written to us

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Speaker 1: and talk to us in person about the ongoing conversation

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Speaker 1: regarding art and ownership. UH and artificial intelligence. Artificial intelligence. Yeah, well, um,

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Speaker 1: we're we're kind of at this point now where the rubber,

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Speaker 1: as they say, meets the road, and that usually comes

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Speaker 1: in the form of lawsuits. We've been talking about this

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Speaker 1: stuff for a while now as to you know, how

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Speaker 1: these fun little kind of curiosities like generating yourself a

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Speaker 1: cool um you know, cartoony avatar one that looks like

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Speaker 1: you're in Lord of the Rings or like a Greek

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Speaker 1: god or whatever is super fun and everything, but also

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Speaker 1: how you're a set jually paying for the privilege of

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Speaker 1: training these AI algorithms. Um with what was the one

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Speaker 1: that was doing the little little guys? Uh, Lenza, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Lenza was a big popular one, had a big moment,

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Speaker 1: a company that's been around for a while but only

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Speaker 1: has really kind of started to make ways with this

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Speaker 1: rash of just you know, virtual selfie posts that have

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Speaker 1: been actually learned about it from a from super producer

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Speaker 1: Alexis code name Doc holiday Uh and asked her what

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Speaker 1: the thing was called and she told me and I

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Speaker 1: immediately fed it all kinds of information and pictures to

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Speaker 1: get these cool images. One for me when from my

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Speaker 1: kid and went from my kids mom um, only to

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Speaker 1: be told by a very savvy friend of mine and

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Speaker 1: the show Matt riddle. Uh, hey, buddy, h f y,

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Speaker 1: I be careful with that stuff. You're basically just paying

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Speaker 1: for the privilege of training their AI. UM. So, when

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Speaker 1: you're training in AI in terms of like image recognition,

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Speaker 1: feeding an actual photographs, that's one thing. But the esthetics

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Speaker 1: that these AI s are generating are often trained with

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Speaker 1: actual art, with actual stuff that's on the Internet from

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Speaker 1: folks like Friends of the Show, an illustrator of the

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Speaker 1: stuff they don't want you to know book uh. Nick

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Speaker 1: Turbot Benson who actually did one of these UM for

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Speaker 1: the rapper Killer Mike UM and actually was very shocked

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Speaker 1: to realize that the aesthetic that the thing spit out

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Speaker 1: of Killer Mike looked remarkably similar to a an image

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Speaker 1: that he generated, you know, he created generated, He's a

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Speaker 1: he's a human. He created an image of Killer Mike

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Speaker 1: forso run the Jewels Materials poster or you know, a

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Speaker 1: T shirt or something like that. UM. And this is

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Speaker 1: not uncommon. This is being noticed, you know, across the

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Speaker 1: board by artists saying, hey, uh, the aesthetics of of

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Speaker 1: of some of these things like mid Journey UM deviant Art,

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Speaker 1: which has an art generating algorithm Stability AI um and

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Speaker 1: and others eerily similar to some stuff that I've done

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Speaker 1: or my colleagues have done. And we know that a

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Speaker 1: big thing about these as, as you've mentioned several times,

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Speaker 1: been his specificity. Whether it's you know, like a chat

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Speaker 1: bought like like GPT chat or whatever, it's about saying

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Speaker 1: something something in the style of with lighting similar to

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Speaker 1: So it really is all about giving an information that

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Speaker 1: it can kind of ape, you know, like whether it

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Speaker 1: be UM actually in the style of saying Andy Warhol

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Speaker 1: or maybe our Cromb or some artists like Michell Michelle

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Speaker 1: boskiat you can do that, and it does that, But

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Speaker 1: how does it do that. It does that by looking

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Speaker 1: for examples of that artist's work. Um And while those

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Speaker 1: are big names, uh and and and many you know,

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Speaker 1: like working artists aren't going to have names that big.

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Speaker 1: But the nature of being a working artist is that

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Speaker 1: a lot of your stuff, whether it be through clients

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Speaker 1: that you've had over the years or you know, examples

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Speaker 1: on your website of your work, that stuff is out

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Speaker 1: there on the open Internet. Uh. And that is the

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Speaker 1: kind of information these algorithms are scraping to feed their

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Speaker 1: generative capabilities. You know. For this stuff. Uh. So we

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Speaker 1: talked about lawsuits. There is a class action lawsuit accusing Stability, AI,

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Speaker 1: d v An Art, and mid Journey of violations of

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Speaker 1: the Digital Millennium Copyright Act or d m c A.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna read a little bit from an article on

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Speaker 1: Kotaku uh detailing some of the allegations. The lawsuit alleges

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Speaker 1: direct copyright infringement, vicarious copyright infringement related to forgeries, violations

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Speaker 1: of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, violation of class members

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Speaker 1: rights to publicity, breach of contract related to deviant art

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Speaker 1: terms of services, and various violations of California's unfair competition laws.

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Speaker 1: Um Matthew Butterick is one of the lawyers representing the class.

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Speaker 1: This is a case that was filed in San Francisco courts,

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Speaker 1: and it's super super interesting because the chatter kind of is,

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Speaker 1: you know, this could set precedent for or against the

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Speaker 1: interests of these artists, right because if it's struck down

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Speaker 1: and it turns out that this is not in fact

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Speaker 1: copyright infringement, and then they're not actually being ripped off

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Speaker 1: directly in a way that's protected by law, then these

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Speaker 1: artists are forgiving me shoot out of luck. Uh, and

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Speaker 1: then they they're gonna have to take a whole another

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Speaker 1: tech here. Um. You know, we've talked about the interesting

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Speaker 1: aspects of AI are using in conjunction with humans that

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Speaker 1: generate art, you know, as sort of another tool. But

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Speaker 1: when you think about a lot of the things, for example,

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Speaker 1: these types of portraits that we're talking about, a lot

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Speaker 1: of artists make their make their bread and butter doing

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Speaker 1: these kinds of portraits at comic cons or what have you.

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Speaker 1: You know, with with fan art, you know of various

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Speaker 1: characters and things that they they sell to to make money.

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Speaker 1: And this really does you know, if someone could just

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Speaker 1: feed a couple of pictures into an algorithm and generate

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Speaker 1: something for five bucks, why would they pay an artist

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Speaker 1: five hundred bucks you know to do something. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I have answers to that. It's a hypothetical question, but

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Speaker 1: you know it is a question nonetheless, and there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of people that won't pay the five hundred that

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Speaker 1: would rather just have the the neat you know, avatar

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Speaker 1: for a couple of bucks. Um Stability AI and mid

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Speaker 1: Journey or probably too you may have heard of. Mid

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Speaker 1: Journey is probably one of the crazier ones where a

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Speaker 1: lot of interesting artists are using mid journey to create

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Speaker 1: kind of weird, psychedelic, you know, sci fi landscapes and

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Speaker 1: very interesting things that maybe don't exist in the world. UM.

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Speaker 1: So you may have seen these kinds of images posted.

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Speaker 1: A lot of them are actually being animated. There's there's

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Speaker 1: ways of using this AI stuff to generate these morphing

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Speaker 1: kind of animated images where you obviously like lots of

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Speaker 1: images were combined. They're kind of morphing from one to

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Speaker 1: the other, and it's got a certain look to it.

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Speaker 1: You can kind of tell right away that that's what

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Speaker 1: you're looking at. UM. Deviant Art, on the other hand,

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Speaker 1: has been around for a long time and it's more

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Speaker 1: of like an art kind of community and portfolio for artists. UM.

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Speaker 1: But it also has an algorithm or like an AI

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Speaker 1: art generator thing that it's been pushing out. So this

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Speaker 1: is um, you know, naming all of these companies in

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Speaker 1: this class action lawsuits. So that's its own thing. And

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Speaker 1: that's interesting because again if it if the suit does

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Speaker 1: not go the way of the artists, and this could

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Speaker 1: crack the gates wide open for even more of this

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Speaker 1: kind of thing to say, oh, it's just it's not

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Speaker 1: actually stealing anybody's intellectual property. It's just using things that

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Speaker 1: are freely available on the Internet, and it's determined that

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Speaker 1: the work being generated are completely unique. Um. Whether or

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Speaker 1: not you you you would you would argue with that

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Speaker 1: point or not. Um. Another I think even more interesting

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Speaker 1: development here is that Getty Images are also suing um.

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Speaker 1: Because we know Getty Images is a very litigious company.

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Speaker 1: First and foremost, you have to license their thousands and

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Speaker 1: thousands and thousands of images, and they are not cheap. Um.

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Speaker 1: You know, they go to image about every you know,

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Speaker 1: step and repeat kind of red carpet events. So there's

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Speaker 1: tons of celebrity images, tons of archival images, all of

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Speaker 1: this kind of stuff, and they are uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: stock photos is what they're Um. They are suing Stability

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Speaker 1: AI or accusing. I think the suit has been filed yet,

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Speaker 1: but a press release came out before apparently Stability AI

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Speaker 1: was informed officially of the lawsuit, and they say, I'm

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Speaker 1: just gonna read what Getty Images has to say. Getty

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Speaker 1: Images believes artificial intelligence has the potential to stimulate creative endeavors. Accordingly,

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Speaker 1: Getty Images provided licenses to leading technology innovators for purposes

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Speaker 1: related to training artificial intelligence systems in a manner that

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Speaker 1: respects personal and intellectual property rights. Stability AI did not

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Speaker 1: seek any such license from Getty Images, and instead, we

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Speaker 1: believe chose to ignore viable licensing options and longstanding legal

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Speaker 1: protections in pursuit of their stand alone commercial interests, to

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Speaker 1: which stability AI told CNN, we don't know anything about this.

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Speaker 1: We're hearing it for the first time in the press

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Speaker 1: and we find it a little odd. That's how we

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Speaker 1: heard about it. Quote. We're still awaiting the service of

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Speaker 1: any documents. Should we receive them, we will comment appropriately.

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Speaker 1: And they did. Getty Images in their their official statement

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Speaker 1: over on their newsroom, they did confirm that they have

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Speaker 1: commenced those legal proceedings, so they are under they are

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Speaker 1: underway as we as we record today. And this is

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Speaker 1: what's funny about this story, know as it reminds me,

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Speaker 1: um Matt, you probably remember back in the day we

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Speaker 1: had to when when we were much smaller, scrappier outfit,

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Speaker 1: we had to have the serious, like family dinner table,

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Speaker 1: hard conversations about how many photos from getty we could

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Speaker 1: afford to use. And it got acrimonious at times, well

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Speaker 1: because our company wasn't huge, but it was a big

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Speaker 1: enough company to where we paid a certain amount of

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Speaker 1: money for a certain number of images per month, right

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Speaker 1: per pay period, and we had several video shows in production.

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Speaker 1: So Ben and I at the time would have to say, Okay, look,

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Speaker 1: we we've got this episode coming up on the War

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Speaker 1: on Drugs. I think we're gonna need I'm estimating seven

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Speaker 1: images that we need from d so uh if we

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Speaker 1: could please please have those And that's how it would go,

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Speaker 1: because we would have to pay for each one of

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Speaker 1: those images that we licensed to put in our video.

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Speaker 1: Why the stuff they don't want you to know get

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Speaker 1: all the thumbnails? To your point, Matt is, I don't

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Speaker 1: know the answer that because I've never really had to

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Speaker 1: mess with us too much. I imagine the licensing fee

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Speaker 1: pay depends on the size of your audience and also

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Speaker 1: the use of said image and how long it's going

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Speaker 1: to live and in what medium is going to live.

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Speaker 1: It gets a little different when you're dealing with larger accounts.

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Speaker 1: So for a company like at the time, House Stuff

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Speaker 1: Works that had multiple shows, multiple things going on, it's

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Speaker 1: and it's it's tougher to like estimate an audience. So

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Speaker 1: I don't know exactly what happened. I wasn't high enough

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Speaker 1: Ben and I were not high enough in the company

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Speaker 1: to know exactly what the you know, contract looked like

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Speaker 1: at the time. But that's certainly the way of function.

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Speaker 1: You pay for a certain number of images you license,

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Speaker 1: and their perpetual worldwide licenses so they last further anywhere.

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Speaker 1: But dude, if you go on Stable diffusions website, look

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Speaker 1: at their f a Q and you notice that there's

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Speaker 1: a direct question on here, what is the copyright on

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Speaker 1: images created through Stable Diffusion Online? This is the Stability

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Speaker 1: AI generator And their answer is images created through Stable

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Speaker 1: Diffusion Online are fully open source, explicitly following under the

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Speaker 1: c c O one point zero Universal Public Domain Dedication.

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Speaker 1: What a great time to be a lawyer, lead conspiracy realist.

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Speaker 1: If you're on the Getty case, tell us what kind

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Speaker 1: of boat you're gonna buy, no doubt, because this really

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Speaker 1: is like brave New World kind of territory. This hasn't

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Speaker 1: been dealt with. This is when this will be decided

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Speaker 1: one way or the other. And y'all I asked to

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Speaker 1: you both, any ideas as to why Getty might not

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Speaker 1: care for this big picture. Sure, they've converted there the

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Speaker 1: images that they make people pay tons of mone for

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Speaker 1: into public domain fragments, right, they fragmented them into public domain.

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Speaker 1: I don't know what you'd call it um instances. You

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Speaker 1: could call it about that, but would wouldn't you have

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Speaker 1: to show though that it was like, literally, here's this

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Speaker 1: face from this Getty image. I mean, I would hope

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Speaker 1: that stability AI would not be so stupid as to

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Speaker 1: have it be like a cop cut and paste mishmash

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Speaker 1: of Getty images. The idea is that it's creating a

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Speaker 1: new face out of a bunch of other faces, and

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Speaker 1: you can't tell from the end result what went into it.

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Speaker 1: It will be like the fair use argument, Right, I

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Speaker 1: am altering your thing, I'm making it new by using

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Speaker 1: parts of it. But they don't even know which images

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Speaker 1: were used to feed the particular output that there. There's

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Speaker 1: no way of tracking that to my understanding. You know,

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Speaker 1: maybe there is, and maybe they could request that, but

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Speaker 1: that also might be a moot point, because it doesn't

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Speaker 1: really matter what goes into it if there's no recognizable

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Speaker 1: portion of the original in the end product. That's a

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Speaker 1: solid argument. But let's let me also advance just a

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Speaker 1: very off the cuff freestyle conspiracy here. Uh. I would

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Speaker 1: say that it would be very helpful for Getty Images

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Speaker 1: to have a bad guy or an antagonist to fight

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Speaker 1: against because they have, uh, they have tons of lawsuits

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Speaker 1: against them for something like forty seven thousand photos. And uh.

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Speaker 1: The photographers who took against Getty, Yeah, against Getty for compensation.

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Speaker 1: They're saying, hey, can you pay us because you're using

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Speaker 1: my work? Right? Uh? And I you know, I know

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Speaker 1: you guys know about licensing Getty, So run the jewels

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Speaker 1: for me, right, cough up my my slice of the

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Speaker 1: pie here. Uh. There was a I think in particular,

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Speaker 1: there was a one billion dollar lawsuit uh from a

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Speaker 1: photographer named Carol high Smith. Uh. And this dates back

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Speaker 1: to six I don't know if any of these things

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Speaker 1: have been resolved, but I'm just saying, like, Getty is

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Speaker 1: a huge company. They're huge force in the field, and

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Speaker 1: we can't confuse them with some kind of shining paragon

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Speaker 1: on a hill. It's just weird to me that they're

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Speaker 1: getting accused of some of the same stuff they're accusing

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Speaker 1: and it's it's the it's the pot calling the AI

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Speaker 1: kettle black. You know, I mean no and no question

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Speaker 1: and honestly too. I mean they have a vested interest

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Speaker 1: in defending or or at least um fighting against this

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Speaker 1: technology just lock stock and barrel, because if you can

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Speaker 1: just type in keywords and generate a copyright free stock

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Speaker 1: image without having to license something, Um, that's a huge

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Speaker 1: part of their business that's gone. You know. Shutter Stock,

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Speaker 1: who's a Getty competitor, they've leagued up with Open Ai,

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Speaker 1: was the company behind Dolly um and also uh the

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Speaker 1: AI chat bot chat GPT, So they're thinking ahead because

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Speaker 1: they know it's an bitable. I would argue shutter Stock

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Speaker 1: is also a newer, you know, more kind of like

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Speaker 1: with the Times company. Getty has been around for ages, uh,

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Speaker 1: and they've got legacy skin in the game, so I

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Speaker 1: think they're kind of looking out for their best interests

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Speaker 1: in terms of like slowing down the spreading tide of

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Speaker 1: AI image generation one of the biggest parts of Getty's

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Speaker 1: I don't know the reason why they're used so much,

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Speaker 1: I guess is because they have those creative images, which

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Speaker 1: were the ones we would use for our show often. Well,

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Speaker 1: they have a whole other set of images which are

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Speaker 1: meant for journalism purposes. So that's that's that's a different portion.

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Speaker 1: I mean they couldn't. That would be a whole another

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Speaker 1: thing about right to of publicity and all that stuff.

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Speaker 1: If like, all of a sudden, you just generated an

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Speaker 1: AI image of a celebrity that never actually took place,

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Speaker 1: that celebrity could then sue you, you know what I mean. Maybe,

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Speaker 1: I mean it's it's brave New what it's a it's

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Speaker 1: brave new water in a brave it's real deep water

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Speaker 1: in a brave new world. That's the way we say it.

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Speaker 1: But keep my stumble in there at least arshly, doc

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Speaker 1: because that's what makes us human, right, or that's what

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Speaker 1: makes us appear to be human. Uh. Two big notes.

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Speaker 1: I think we should say this current legal beef. At

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Speaker 1: least from my understanding, he's taken place in London. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the app rather than the US laws. It's legal to

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Speaker 1: scrape the web however you wish in the US. Oh.

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Speaker 1: I mean, there's there's so many things to discuss here,

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Speaker 1: and let's keep it brief. And I think we definitely

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Speaker 1: have another update for this stuff coming in the very

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Speaker 1: near future um, and I do want to just close

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Speaker 1: by by referencing a thing that you found where we

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Speaker 1: just mentioned chat GPT. Um it can it's like not

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Speaker 1: image generation, it's texts and content generation. And somebody apparently

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Speaker 1: sent the Australian incredible songwriter singer artist Nick Cave some

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Speaker 1: song lyrics that chat GPT had generated in the style

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Speaker 1: of Nick Cave, and uh he had a thing or

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Speaker 1: two to say about it that I think you could

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Speaker 1: apply across the board to this stuff. I understand that

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Speaker 1: chat GPT is in its infancy, but perhaps that is

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Speaker 1: the emerging horror of AI, that it will forever be

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Speaker 1: in its infancy, as it will always have further to

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Speaker 1: go in the direction is always forward, always faster. It

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Speaker 1: can never be rolled back or slowed down as it

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Speaker 1: moves us towards a utopian future maybe or are total destruction.

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Speaker 1: Who can possibly say which? Judging by the song quote

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Speaker 1: in the style of Nick Cave, though it doesn't look

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Speaker 1: good the apocalypse as well on its way, This song sucks.

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Speaker 1: I recommend reading the uh, the the full Nick Cave letter.

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Speaker 1: And Nick, if you're listening nice nicely, we're gonna take

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Speaker 1: a quick break and hear a word from our sponsor

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Speaker 1: and let me back with some more strange news, and

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Speaker 1: we have returned. Quick heads up, folks, if you are

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Speaker 1: listening with family members, if you have kids in the

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Speaker 1: audience today, you may want to fast forward about fifteen

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Speaker 1: minutes or so. Uh. The following story may not be

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Speaker 1: appropriate for all list nurse, but it caught our collective eye.

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Speaker 1: The war in Ukraine, the invasion of Ukraine, continues apace,

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Speaker 1: and sadly here in the West, a lot of people

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Speaker 1: are encountering some degree of fatigue about it. Right, you

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Speaker 1: probably find yourself reading fewer stories about what's going down.

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Speaker 1: People can just kind of become acclimated to the most

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Speaker 1: terrible stuff, the most terrible news, and we see this

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Speaker 1: happen all the time. Part of the reason it's such

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Speaker 1: a problem, at least in the US, is because of

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Speaker 1: the way the news cycle is uh designed to maximize advertising.

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Speaker 1: It's true. Sorry, Uh. You may have heard our earlier

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Speaker 1: episode on a mercenary army that is completely, totally, not

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Speaker 1: officially a part of Russia. Russia's military. It's just run

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Speaker 1: by a close friend of Vladimir Putin. It's called the

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Speaker 1: Wagner Group, and they do a lot of things that

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Speaker 1: ordinary or official armies would not do or should not do.

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Speaker 1: And recently, as the war and the invasion have continued,

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Speaker 1: have dragged on, and have even escalated, the Russian state

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Speaker 1: has encountered a ton of problems. It turns out that

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Speaker 1: the Cold War legend of the great Dangerous Russian Army

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Speaker 1: may have been largely a legend, at least embellished. The

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Speaker 1: technology is old, a lot of it's not working. They're

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Speaker 1: making some very what appeared to be very basic mistakes

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Speaker 1: that ordinarily professional offecial military simply would not make, Like

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Speaker 1: unsecured calms really day one stuff. Uh. And you guys

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Speaker 1: heard about the conscription fears and all the Russian men

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Speaker 1: of possible conscription trying to get out of the country.

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Speaker 1: I've heard this, and I've also well, wait, the conscription

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Speaker 1: fears because they're leaving because they're worried about being sent

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Speaker 1: off to the Ukraine front. Correct. Is this like being

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Speaker 1: drafted or is this different? They're already drafted. They're just

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Speaker 1: like dormant essentially, and they'll be like called into action

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Speaker 1: or activated as it were. Yeah, they're fleeing conscription or

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Speaker 1: being drafted. Uh. The phrase that you'll hear to describe

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Speaker 1: this is called mobilization. So yes, so several times Putin

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Speaker 1: has come out and it's come out in the news.

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Speaker 1: They've been taking folks who are not, you know, normally

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Speaker 1: soldiers by trade, and just like the US did in Vietnam,

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Speaker 1: they they're drafting them. So as this um. Actually this

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Speaker 1: is happening in two but very towards the end of

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Speaker 1: the year especially, it's been tough for me to know

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Speaker 1: how much of that is propaganda on the Western side,

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Speaker 1: Like looking on they're even getting their prisoners to go

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Speaker 1: and forcing these people to fight. You know, I don't

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Speaker 1: know how much of a really good point. I thought

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Speaker 1: the same thing. It feels like something you would say,

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Speaker 1: right if you were doing information. Sure, and I think

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Speaker 1: that's a really that's a really good point. But we

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Speaker 1: have to note that per Russia's own reporting, over two

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Speaker 1: hundred thousand people have were already drafted into their armed

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Speaker 1: forces in by October, so a lot of people were

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Speaker 1: trying to leave. And at the same time, the Russian

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Speaker 1: state is lowering it's standards right for who can be accepted,

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Speaker 1: who would qualify you know what I mean? You see

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Speaker 1: this happen in a lot of militaries in the past

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Speaker 1: and the Wager group. Do please check out that that

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Speaker 1: episode because it is it is disturbing. It's very true story.

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Speaker 1: But now these big variables lead us to this very

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Speaker 1: disturbing thing. I want to talk about the most prolific

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Speaker 1: serial murderer in Russia as a guy named Mikhail Popekov.

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Speaker 1: He is alive, he is in prison. He was called

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Speaker 1: the Angarsk maniac, the werewolf. He is serving two life

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Speaker 1: sentences for the murder of eight three women. And this

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Speaker 1: includes later confessions he gave after his arrest and trial

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Speaker 1: and imprisonment. Uh. And these are women who were between

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Speaker 1: the ages of eighteen and fifty. They were murdered in tortured,

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Speaker 1: then murdered in horrific ways, and then he defiled their bodies.

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Speaker 1: This happened probably between all the way to He said

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Speaker 1: that he was doing this because he wanted to quote

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Speaker 1: cleanse the city of prostitutes his words, not ours. And

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Speaker 1: because there have been some deals allowing criminals or prisoners,

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Speaker 1: people on the wrong side of the law to join

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Speaker 1: the Russian military in exchange for a pardon. Pope gov

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Speaker 1: has put his name in the figurative hat State Television

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Speaker 1: interviewed him recently and he voiced his He voiced his desire.

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Speaker 1: He said, look, I was a conscript in the Red

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Speaker 1: Army back in the day. I have experience with radio

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Speaker 1: and electronic equipment. I would like to join the Russian

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Speaker 1: military and the invasion of Ukraine. And the thing about this,

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Speaker 1: this situation is he's not making some crazy pitch some

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Speaker 1: crazy and saying pitch. Forty thousand convicts have been freed

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Speaker 1: for serving in the army, and that's to the point

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Speaker 1: about propaganda. That's a number we were also able to confirm. Wow,

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Speaker 1: I don't you guys, tell me what you think. In

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Speaker 1: my mind, if you are going to have a frontline

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Speaker 1: force that's meant to be a force, wedge that pushes

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Speaker 1: into areas right and like clears out areas um secures them,

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Speaker 1: you probably want some of the most hardened dare I say,

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Speaker 1: bloodthirsty individuals that you can possibly find. Like that feels

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Speaker 1: like smart strategy to me. They also have to be

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Speaker 1: competent enough to understand and follow orders right and then

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Speaker 1: carry out like pretty sophisticated tactics. But I don't know,

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Speaker 1: is it weird that I feel like having like suicide

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Speaker 1: squad style crews going through on the front lines might

429
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:58,840
Speaker 1: not be the worst idea. No, I think it's a

430
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:03,200
Speaker 1: it's a tariff ying proposition. But it seems like smart maneuvering.

431
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:07,479
Speaker 1: Is there is this a real possibility? Unclear? That's why

432
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,480
Speaker 1: it's at a That's why it's kind of at a crossroads,

433
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:14,119
Speaker 1: because you know, to the point about the suicide squads

434
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:17,760
Speaker 1: would depend upon the nature of the crime, would it not,

435
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:25,600
Speaker 1: now for someone who is a proven necrophile, for someone Yeah,

436
00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:32,000
Speaker 1: for someone who is proven to have murdered not because

437
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 1: they were, you know, attempting to steal food to feed themselves,

438
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:41,320
Speaker 1: or not because it was a matter of self defense

439
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:45,080
Speaker 1: for someone like that. We also have to consider the

440
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 1: the other ethical angle. Even if they are being treated

441
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 1: as cannon fodder by the Wagner group, which seems to

442
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:58,400
Speaker 1: be the case, then is this not letting them out

443
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:02,040
Speaker 1: in the wild to do the thing they enjoy Again,

444
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:05,760
Speaker 1: I know, I think that's exactly what it is. I'm worried.

445
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 1: I suppose that it feels like a good strategy to them.

446
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:13,119
Speaker 1: Does that make sense? It feels it's like the inmates

447
00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:15,680
Speaker 1: are running the asylum kind of situation. Right where it's

448
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:19,640
Speaker 1: just like let the floodgates open, you know, big worst case,

449
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:21,920
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know it matches with the horror

450
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,120
Speaker 1: stories that are coming out of Ukraine right now, where

451
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 1: battles are being fought, right and the aftermath that we

452
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:30,680
Speaker 1: discussed on the show previously, when the Wagner group and

453
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:34,160
Speaker 1: other groups, you know, leave a town after that's essentially

454
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:37,160
Speaker 1: been sacked, and the horror stories of the exact same

455
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:41,560
Speaker 1: kinds of things that were that this guy did. I suppose.

456
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:44,960
Speaker 1: To be fair to the Russian side of this equation,

457
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 1: we do need to point out that he has not

458
00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:54,080
Speaker 1: received an official statement from Russia. The Russian media, you know,

459
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,359
Speaker 1: the state media was allowed to show this interview, but

460
00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 1: that's not the same thing as them allowing him to

461
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 1: join the front lines there. He is older, he is

462
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:08,359
Speaker 1: fifty eight years old. Um, Like a lot of these monsters,

463
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:13,040
Speaker 1: you can't trust what they're saying. They might make grandiose statements.

464
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:16,280
Speaker 1: So we don't know too much about his specific military experience,

465
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 1: not that that matters in this case. We do know

466
00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:23,400
Speaker 1: he was a police officer and uh, as we've seen

467
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 1: in similar cases, he used his official position to further

468
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:32,720
Speaker 1: enable his crimes. Well, I mean, it's not like Putin

469
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:36,880
Speaker 1: is fighting much of a pr you know, war. He's

470
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 1: already kind of, you know, emerged from this situation looking

471
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 1: kind of like a supervillain. So is there really much

472
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:46,280
Speaker 1: of a leap between what his images now and how

473
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:50,320
Speaker 1: this would tarnish it further. I don't know. It's the

474
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:55,480
Speaker 1: question hypothetical. It's a good question, and the really the

475
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:59,360
Speaker 1: only reason this guy is alive right now is because

476
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:05,320
Speaker 1: there's a formal suspension of capital punishment in Russia. And

477
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:10,080
Speaker 1: you know, unless you run into the wrong window, it

478
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 1: seems that the third story windows of Russia have become

479
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:17,480
Speaker 1: a little bit more dangerous than the courts. Uh, maybe

480
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:20,240
Speaker 1: we can do an episode on that. But this gets

481
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 1: me because you know, war is so fun, it's such

482
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:30,840
Speaker 1: a fundamentally horrific thing. We hear these stories sometimes about

483
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 1: people who are on the wrong side of the law

484
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 1: trying to help the public good as a way of

485
00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 1: reducing their own sentence right or getting better circumstances and incarceration.

486
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about convicts fighting wildfires, for instance, and those

487
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 1: those convicts out west in the United States have no

488
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 1: doubt saved lives, but where is the line here? You

489
00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 1: know what I mean? Especially knowing these forces are encounter

490
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,280
Speaker 1: orne civilians in Ukraine, I feel like this guy is

491
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 1: the titular line, if not, if not, way way over it.

492
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 1: You know, you don't get a nickname like the werewolf

493
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:17,040
Speaker 1: for nothing, and especially considering that, uh, he was able

494
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:23,720
Speaker 1: to elude law enforcement for twenty years, probably because he

495
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 1: knew some of the standard operating procedures from his own

496
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 1: time working in law enforcement. So this is someone who

497
00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 1: if they get out, they could stay out. It would

498
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:35,959
Speaker 1: be kind of hard to catch them if they got

499
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 1: a chance, if they got a chance to ghost. And

500
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:42,960
Speaker 1: forgive me for not fully remembering exactly how suicide squad worked.

501
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:45,960
Speaker 1: Wasn't that sort of a secret program. It's not really

502
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 1: something you'd publicize, right because you want them to be

503
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:52,280
Speaker 1: able to be disavowed if they're captured or killed or whatever.

504
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 1: It would be more like a black ops. So publicizing

505
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:59,920
Speaker 1: doing this probably not be smart. It would just be

506
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:02,800
Speaker 1: the doing of it, and to have that, but then

507
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,200
Speaker 1: kind of do it, you know, on the down, the

508
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:08,240
Speaker 1: on the low low. I don't know, what do you

509
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 1: guys think? Is there a benefit to publicizing it? I

510
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:14,120
Speaker 1: would think not. I'm just wondering. This is obviously the

511
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 1: guy who's running his mouth saying I want to do this.

512
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 1: It's not the same as you know putin saying we've

513
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 1: we've decided to start a program that's going to release

514
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 1: all of our most hardened psychotic criminals from prison to

515
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:28,800
Speaker 1: fight the good fight. I mean, if you can survive

516
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:33,760
Speaker 1: in um a goulag on the hind lens of Russia,

517
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:37,280
Speaker 1: then you are you have become a very dangerous person.

518
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:39,880
Speaker 1: So there there is also it. You could you could

519
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 1: see a psi op edge to it, you know, announcing

520
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:47,160
Speaker 1: a very different version of this, like how inglorious bastards

521
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:50,880
Speaker 1: in that heavily fictionalized World War two thing, they their

522
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 1: existence became uh or took on a psychological aspect because

523
00:31:55,360 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 1: people were terrified. In d C's suicide Squad, some of

524
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 1: those villains have superpowers. If someone had a superpower, you

525
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 1: would definitely, to your ability can script them. But with

526
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:12,880
Speaker 1: those suicide squads, UH are operating on pain of death.

527
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 1: It's kind of like UH. In various military conflicts in

528
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 1: ages past, you would put the you would put the

529
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:25,600
Speaker 1: people who were inept or didn't want to be there,

530
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:28,760
Speaker 1: as the first wave sometimes and you would have the

531
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 1: real out and find out people right behind them ready

532
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:36,040
Speaker 1: to kill them if they turned around. Yeah. But if

533
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:39,120
Speaker 1: I'm not mistaken, even some of those suicide squatters with

534
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 1: their like explosive net collars and and minders still got away. Yeah,

535
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:48,040
Speaker 1: because you get to have a sequel, you know for sure. Uh.

536
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:51,880
Speaker 1: And at this point we're gonna pause here because this

537
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:54,320
Speaker 1: touches on a lot of other things. It touches on

538
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:57,640
Speaker 1: the history of outfits like the French Foreign Legion, It

539
00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:01,600
Speaker 1: touches on the gray market of mercenary or and we

540
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 1: have some fellow conspiracy realists who are likely acquainted with

541
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 1: with some aspect of that world. We want to hear

542
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:14,520
Speaker 1: your thoughts, folks. What do you think the line is?

543
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:20,080
Speaker 1: Should criminals, uh, criminals be permitted to join into a

544
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:23,400
Speaker 1: war in pursuit of a pardon? Does it depend on

545
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:27,120
Speaker 1: what kind of crimes they committed? Do you think that

546
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:32,200
Speaker 1: Putin and co. Are gonna play ball with a monstrous,

547
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 1: monstrous individual. Let us know, we're gonna pause for a

548
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 1: word from our sponsor. We're not gonna end on such

549
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:42,960
Speaker 1: a dark note. Never fear, We're gonna talk about the future,

550
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:53,240
Speaker 1: and we're back and guys strap in we are going

551
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:56,360
Speaker 1: for a real trip all the way over to Geneva,

552
00:33:56,400 --> 00:34:09,399
Speaker 1: Switzerland because we're gonna visit the PAP PAP World Economic Forum. Yes, yes,

553
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:12,680
Speaker 1: the Zuck is here. Probably, I'm not sure if he is.

554
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:15,160
Speaker 1: I'm sure he is. How he's sucking up. He's out there,

555
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:18,520
Speaker 1: he's out there. I was watching it earlier today because

556
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:21,960
Speaker 1: it's happening right now as we're recording this episode on

557
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 1: the week of what is it? It's January eighteenth right now,

558
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:29,240
Speaker 1: but all this week the World Economic Forum is happening

559
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:32,120
Speaker 1: in their lives, streaming all these things. So I got

560
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:35,360
Speaker 1: to listen to John Kerry earlier talking about ways to

561
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:44,680
Speaker 1: fix climate change. Is there, freaking yeah Kemp, Governor of Georgia,

562
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:48,040
Speaker 1: Bryant Kemp, who's not exactly known for his like progressive

563
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 1: ways of thinking, which is sort of what we associate

564
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:54,560
Speaker 1: places like the World Economic Forum with, but also it's

565
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:56,400
Speaker 1: just kind of where the elite meet to have kind

566
00:34:56,440 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 1: of closed door deal making sessions. Yeah. I hope George

567
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:03,560
Speaker 1: Bush was there too, fellow skull and bonesman with R

568
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 1: I like how I like how down home in Texan

569
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:15,360
Speaker 1: folksy that Connecticut born psionic So folksy, I like it

570
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:18,399
Speaker 1: to ben um. All right, Well, we are going there

571
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:22,560
Speaker 1: to discuss an open letter that was written recently to

572
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:26,360
Speaker 1: all of the attendees of Davos, the World Economic Forum,

573
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:31,520
Speaker 1: mostly the government officials and high level executives that were attending,

574
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:33,799
Speaker 1: which is most of the people that were there, at

575
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:36,840
Speaker 1: least the speakers. Check out our episode two where we

576
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:39,239
Speaker 1: we talked about some of the security that goes down

577
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 1: to Tacos. It's kind of nuts weird stuff. Yeah, check

578
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:45,239
Speaker 1: it out for sure. If you don't know much about it,

579
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:48,239
Speaker 1: it's worth your time. But there's a reason this open

580
00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:51,319
Speaker 1: letter was targeted to them and was just put out

581
00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:54,399
Speaker 1: right now as the World Economic Forum is occurring. It's

582
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:59,640
Speaker 1: because this The message of this open letter is, Hey,

583
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:03,839
Speaker 1: we writing this letter. We're a bunch of multi millionaires

584
00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:07,920
Speaker 1: and even a few billionaires, and we want you government

585
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:12,240
Speaker 1: officials to tax us tax us right now. Tax us harsh,

586
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:16,359
Speaker 1: like tax us so hard, Just tax the crap out

587
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:23,279
Speaker 1: of us. But in order to save the world. That's

588
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:26,359
Speaker 1: the concept. Tax us and the rest of the ultra

589
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:30,360
Speaker 1: wealthy to save the world. Now that sounds like a

590
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:35,400
Speaker 1: tall milkshake. Um, like a delicious tall milkshake. But it

591
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:40,040
Speaker 1: could be a real possible answer to kick starting some

592
00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:43,239
Speaker 1: of the things that can't happen right now because they

593
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:47,439
Speaker 1: simply can't get funding. Um, So let's talk about it, guys.

594
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:50,560
Speaker 1: Let's talk about this letter. What it is and what's

595
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:54,719
Speaker 1: what's said in here and could it actually work? So

596
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:56,680
Speaker 1: I shared the open letter with you, guys. I don't

597
00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:58,040
Speaker 1: know if you want to go through any of it

598
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:00,640
Speaker 1: and actually read some of it out. Man. I really

599
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:04,000
Speaker 1: appreciate this one because we talked a little bit about

600
00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:08,000
Speaker 1: the nature of rhetoric in our episode on skepticism recently,

601
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:14,520
Speaker 1: and so these kind of declarations or manifestose Uh, they

602
00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:18,560
Speaker 1: always start with at least one thing everybody can agree on.

603
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:22,000
Speaker 1: We're living in an age of extremes, and they talk

604
00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 1: about how just like absolutely terrible the world is right

605
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:29,000
Speaker 1: now for so many people, and how it's gonna get worse.

606
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:33,520
Speaker 1: But then they start talking about wealth extraction, the transfer

607
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:39,960
Speaker 1: of wealth from the majority to a incredibly powerful elite.

608
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:43,000
Speaker 1: And it's stuff that you hear other billionaires mentioned before.

609
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:46,520
Speaker 1: Warren Buffetts talked about it. I think um he mentioned

610
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:51,520
Speaker 1: he pays more taxes than his secretary. I just I

611
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:55,280
Speaker 1: don't know. You can see how people wouldn't trust the statement. Sure,

612
00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:59,440
Speaker 1: and and the concept on its face it seems very

613
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:02,480
Speaker 1: kumbaya and like interest, you know, like something they don't

614
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:05,520
Speaker 1: really would be a good idea. But doesn't it And

615
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:07,200
Speaker 1: this is sag and I think it's not true for

616
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:09,400
Speaker 1: the for the for the opposite, does it Wouldn't this

617
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 1: kind of require the consent of the super rich essentially? Well,

618
00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:17,239
Speaker 1: that's maybe the whole thing. And that's why I wanted

619
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:21,080
Speaker 1: to bring it to to today's episode is because we

620
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:24,719
Speaker 1: have in this case two and five plus because you

621
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:26,680
Speaker 1: can go in here and sign it as a wealthy

622
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:29,759
Speaker 1: person and add your name to the list. So maybe

623
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:31,920
Speaker 1: a lot of people have added to it since it

624
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 1: was posted not that long ago. But the concept that

625
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 1: there are at least two hun or five ultra wealthy

626
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:42,160
Speaker 1: people who want to do this, uh, that's a good sign.

627
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:45,560
Speaker 1: How do you get enough of the ultra wealthy people

628
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:49,160
Speaker 1: or enough of the organizations that represent the ultra wealthy

629
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:52,200
Speaker 1: people to also sign up for this right to where

630
00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:55,560
Speaker 1: it could actually occur because those ultra wealthy people have

631
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:58,440
Speaker 1: a lot of sway with the folks. This open letters

632
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:02,560
Speaker 1: written to the political leaders who are attending Davos. Right,

633
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:06,000
Speaker 1: So it really is as you said been in a way.

634
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:09,960
Speaker 1: Just here's this statement. We want you to know that

635
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:15,439
Speaker 1: we ultra wealthy people I don't know are we see

636
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:18,640
Speaker 1: you non ultra wealthy people, and we stand with you,

637
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:21,400
Speaker 1: and we'll give you our money if the political leaders

638
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:27,000
Speaker 1: make us right. That's the thing. There's not a statement

639
00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:32,880
Speaker 1: about the tremendous amount of influence that billionaires can have

640
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:38,080
Speaker 1: on government right through any number of proxies or lobbies.

641
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:40,000
Speaker 1: And that's why I mean I use the word consent

642
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:42,279
Speaker 1: because it's not like anyone's asking me how much tax

643
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 1: I want to pay? And technically, you know, you shouldn't

644
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:47,080
Speaker 1: have to ask the super rich how much tax they

645
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:50,839
Speaker 1: should have to pay. But they can also literally kind

646
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 1: of wreck the economy by pulling all their money out

647
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:55,640
Speaker 1: and you know, moving to another country or something. I

648
00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:58,320
Speaker 1: don't know what what what what's the concern with pissing

649
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:02,000
Speaker 1: off the super rich in the scenario, that's probably part

650
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:04,800
Speaker 1: of it. I'm taking their industries elsewhere. I don't know what.

651
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 1: What's like what what leverage do they have? What leverage

652
00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:10,840
Speaker 1: does super rich have you know what I mean, Like,

653
00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:14,879
Speaker 1: they operate companies in the United States, the obviously also

654
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:18,640
Speaker 1: have overseas divisions of of their companies, and their wealth

655
00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:22,520
Speaker 1: can be held overseas and you know, offshore accounts and

656
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:24,920
Speaker 1: things like that. But if if the government were to

657
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:28,120
Speaker 1: say we're going to tax you, the super rich, what

658
00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 1: would be the super richest move to say the hell

659
00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:34,319
Speaker 1: you are move their money? Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

660
00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:37,680
Speaker 1: I'm making sure I wasn't missing anything and then and

661
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:41,880
Speaker 1: then punish the people responsible for making those moves, right,

662
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:45,680
Speaker 1: get them out of office, hear them in public. Uh,

663
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:47,920
Speaker 1: And I'm asking bone headed questions because I just want

664
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:49,360
Speaker 1: to make sure that we're all on the same page,

665
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 1: fellow bone heads. But no, it's it's interesting. So this

666
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:55,359
Speaker 1: is almost like a petition, kind of an open letter

667
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:58,120
Speaker 1: where they've got some co sign from a handful, But

668
00:40:58,200 --> 00:40:59,680
Speaker 1: that wouldn't be enough. It would need to be all

669
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:03,239
Speaker 1: of them, right, Yeah, I I don't know. You would

670
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:05,480
Speaker 1: just have to There would have to be a political

671
00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:09,800
Speaker 1: movement where enough supporters who could elect somebody support this

672
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 1: movement right to where the political leader would then support

673
00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:16,200
Speaker 1: it because that person knows they can get elected again

674
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:19,879
Speaker 1: for another term no matter what the ultra wealthy people say.

675
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:23,239
Speaker 1: But those ultra wealthy people can sway an election no

676
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:26,480
Speaker 1: matter how many supporters they have. So it's just like,

677
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:30,719
Speaker 1: I think that's I think the risk involved as someone

678
00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:33,480
Speaker 1: who's going to be a political representative, whether that's you know,

679
00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:37,520
Speaker 1: in a legislature or parliament or you know, prime minister

680
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:40,919
Speaker 1: or president, I think the calculated risk is too high

681
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:44,319
Speaker 1: to go all in on something like this. Yeah, let's

682
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:47,800
Speaker 1: also note that there's a huge problem with the idea

683
00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:52,279
Speaker 1: of philanthropy, right the wealthy class. And it is true,

684
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 1: the wealthy class has done a wonderful job gaslighting huge

685
00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:02,480
Speaker 1: swaths of the global population into thinking that it's not

686
00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:06,200
Speaker 1: good for people to pay their fair share of taxes

687
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:10,000
Speaker 1: and then work towards something that collectively improves the country.

688
00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:13,680
Speaker 1: It's good to trust one or two very rich people

689
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:20,040
Speaker 1: to throw money at something they have identified as a problem.

690
00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:22,640
Speaker 1: And remember these are some of the most powerful people

691
00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:26,480
Speaker 1: on the planet. They are not elected. They choose who

692
00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:30,479
Speaker 1: you get to elect. But ben don't those contributions also

693
00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:34,239
Speaker 1: serve as tax breaks? They do? They do? Uh, they

694
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:36,360
Speaker 1: service tax breaks. And then the question is do you

695
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:39,000
Speaker 1: think like there's some really interesting discourse on this. I

696
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:41,400
Speaker 1: wouldn't be fair to both sides because look, if you

697
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:43,960
Speaker 1: live in the United States, you might say, well, okay,

698
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:47,479
Speaker 1: put yourself in the mind of Bill Gates. You say,

699
00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:51,160
Speaker 1: I could start a charity and I can try to

700
00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:55,960
Speaker 1: eradicate things like malaria or polio. Or I can take

701
00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 1: all the money I would have done and I can

702
00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:00,640
Speaker 1: give it to Uncle Sam and say, hey, I know

703
00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:03,880
Speaker 1: you spend a ton of money every year on a

704
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:07,000
Speaker 1: military that goes around the world, but I'd like you

705
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:10,520
Speaker 1: to think about malaria. You can't just like we, Like

706
00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:13,400
Speaker 1: you said earlier that we can't choose how much you

707
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:16,080
Speaker 1: want to pay in taxes. We mentioned this one of

708
00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:20,520
Speaker 1: our tax activism episodes. You also can't dictate how your

709
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:24,160
Speaker 1: money is spent, not direct and I always say, I

710
00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:27,120
Speaker 1: have no bloody idea where my tax money goes. Certainly

711
00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:31,040
Speaker 1: isn't into my roads and bridges, certainly not paying for

712
00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:37,160
Speaker 1: my kid's education necessarily, or you know, healthcare. I agree

713
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:39,640
Speaker 1: with what we're talking about here. I have to mention

714
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:42,839
Speaker 1: a bit of information from Oxfam. Just if you don't

715
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:45,120
Speaker 1: know about them, you can check them out. Oh x

716
00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:47,440
Speaker 1: f A m. They found a couple of things that

717
00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:49,560
Speaker 1: I want to talk about. This is from the Guardian.

718
00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:53,760
Speaker 1: They said food and energy companies had more than doubled

719
00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:59,360
Speaker 1: their profits in two So food and energy companies doubled

720
00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:03,160
Speaker 1: their profits. They paid out two hundred and fifty seven

721
00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:07,440
Speaker 1: billion two shareholders at a time when more than eight

722
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:12,680
Speaker 1: hundred million people we're going hungry. So that's that isn't

723
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:16,520
Speaker 1: saying shame on you for making money. It is look

724
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:20,640
Speaker 1: at the disparity between these two groups, right, that's inequality

725
00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:25,399
Speaker 1: within our society. Is there something we can do about that? Uh,

726
00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:28,520
Speaker 1: let's just go a little bit further here. Only four

727
00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:33,200
Speaker 1: cents in every dollar of tax revenue comes from wealth taxes,

728
00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:36,800
Speaker 1: and half the world's billionaires lived in countries with zero

729
00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:40,440
Speaker 1: inheritance tax, which we've talked about on this show before, um,

730
00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:43,400
Speaker 1: which is on the money that gets handed down right

731
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:48,600
Speaker 1: from grandmother or a mother to a child, father to

732
00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:53,240
Speaker 1: a child. That money doesn't get taxed often. A tax

733
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:58,040
Speaker 1: of up to five on the world's multimillionaires and billionaires

734
00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:01,799
Speaker 1: could raise one point seven brillion US dollars a year,

735
00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:06,760
Speaker 1: which theoretically would be enough to lift two billion people

736
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:10,440
Speaker 1: out of poverty if you could put all that money

737
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:14,520
Speaker 1: into a fund that was specifically focused on creating a

738
00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:17,359
Speaker 1: plan to do that, which goes to your point, ben

739
00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:21,160
Speaker 1: very difficult to make a government, you know, take a

740
00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:23,800
Speaker 1: certain amount of money, siphon it into one plan, and

741
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:27,239
Speaker 1: then make that plan come to fruition. Yeah, and there's

742
00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:30,359
Speaker 1: there's this other issue too that keeps I keep coming

743
00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:32,920
Speaker 1: back to and pardon me if this sounds a little

744
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:39,600
Speaker 1: bit dismissive or cynical. Can't they just not put money

745
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:44,640
Speaker 1: in offshore tax havens? Can't you just stop paying industry

746
00:45:44,719 --> 00:45:48,160
Speaker 1: of people to help you avoid the taxes and the

747
00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:51,840
Speaker 1: system that you inherently support, Like why can't you just

748
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:54,880
Speaker 1: do that? Now? Who? Who looked around and said, well,

749
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:59,759
Speaker 1: I can't fire my wealth estate management folks. They kept

750
00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:02,880
Speaker 1: me out of the Panama papers. What I need is

751
00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:10,200
Speaker 1: to write a letter yea, yeah, which that's but it's cynical.

752
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:14,120
Speaker 1: We we haven't met these people, so we can't speak, Uh,

753
00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:19,560
Speaker 1: we can't speak with certitude about their motivations, their ambitions,

754
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:23,400
Speaker 1: or their sincerity. But still it feels like it might

755
00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:25,800
Speaker 1: be kind of a talk is cheap situation. I'm just

756
00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:29,080
Speaker 1: being honest, No, I agree that it feels that way.

757
00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:31,560
Speaker 1: I want to give you, guys, one quote from an

758
00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:36,040
Speaker 1: individual that's fascinating to me. There's Uh, this person's story

759
00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:39,600
Speaker 1: is complicated, way more complicated than you will understand. After

760
00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:43,520
Speaker 1: reading one article, I recommend reading several. I'll tell you

761
00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:46,800
Speaker 1: who they are after I read the quote quote. The

762
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:50,640
Speaker 1: whole world, economists and millionaires alike can see the solution

763
00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:54,120
Speaker 1: that is staring us all right in the face. We

764
00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:56,839
Speaker 1: have to tax the ultra rich if we care about

765
00:46:56,880 --> 00:46:59,879
Speaker 1: the safety of democracy, about our communities, about our plan

766
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:02,480
Speaker 1: that we have to get this done. And yet our

767
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:05,719
Speaker 1: decision makers either don't have the gumption or don't feel

768
00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:08,640
Speaker 1: the need to listen to all of these voices. It

769
00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:13,800
Speaker 1: begs the question what or who is stopping them. And

770
00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:17,680
Speaker 1: this is a quote from Marlene Engelhorn as a co

771
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:20,879
Speaker 1: founder of this little thing called tax me. Now, she's

772
00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:22,840
Speaker 1: one of the heirs to the B A. S F

773
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:27,200
Speaker 1: Chemical company. Uh, it's a huge fortune four point something

774
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:29,960
Speaker 1: billion dollars of which she gets, you know, a portion,

775
00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:33,040
Speaker 1: but it's going to be many, many millions of dollars.

776
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:37,120
Speaker 1: And this is someone coming out and saying like I'm

777
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:41,080
Speaker 1: gonna just be receiving this money from you know, my family,

778
00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:44,920
Speaker 1: Please tax me like a lot. I think her quote

779
00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:47,200
Speaker 1: in a different u, in a different place where that

780
00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:50,920
Speaker 1: I've found said, tax me nine of that money. I

781
00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:53,400
Speaker 1: don't like. I don't need that money. I didn't make

782
00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:58,080
Speaker 1: that money, put it to good use. But I think

783
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:00,759
Speaker 1: the big question to you listening right now is giving

784
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:03,799
Speaker 1: it to your government wherever you live the best use

785
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:07,080
Speaker 1: of that money. That's the question. Yeah, it's a great question.

786
00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:09,560
Speaker 1: To Matt, that's the one. I think that's one of

787
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:12,320
Speaker 1: the big ones that we keep coming back to. You know,

788
00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:17,640
Speaker 1: maybe a lot of innovation and success comes from reframing

789
00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:20,040
Speaker 1: the way we ask a question or look at a problem.

790
00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:24,919
Speaker 1: So without burning down the house or touching any third

791
00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:30,279
Speaker 1: rails or making anybody salty with us, maybe money is

792
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:36,480
Speaker 1: the problem. Maybe things likely is that whole free market

793
00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:40,520
Speaker 1: economy man like you know, not to you know, I look,

794
00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:42,399
Speaker 1: and it works for a lot of people, but there

795
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:45,680
Speaker 1: are limits to what good it can do and what

796
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:48,960
Speaker 1: ill it can cause. Or maybe there aren't limits to

797
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:53,359
Speaker 1: what ill it can cause. But certainly feels like there's

798
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:55,280
Speaker 1: too much control in the hands of the super wealthy.

799
00:48:55,920 --> 00:48:58,279
Speaker 1: And I think this sort of cinches it. The fact

800
00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:01,879
Speaker 1: that we can't make something like this work. Well, hey,

801
00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:05,480
Speaker 1: we'll see maybe maybe the folks that Davos solved it all.

802
00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:07,920
Speaker 1: And by the time you're hearing this episode, we're in

803
00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:11,360
Speaker 1: a utopia because this next week, yeah, we don't know,

804
00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:15,920
Speaker 1: because like you, we can't go to Davos, and we

805
00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:18,840
Speaker 1: don't get to choose who does get to go to Davos,

806
00:49:19,239 --> 00:49:23,840
Speaker 1: and that is yet another inherently problematic thing about it.

807
00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:26,520
Speaker 1: But again, we can't question their motives. I think that's

808
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:29,640
Speaker 1: we can question them, we can interrogate them, but we

809
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:33,920
Speaker 1: can't say for sure what those motivations truly are our

810
00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:36,000
Speaker 1: house since here they may be. But it would be

811
00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:40,320
Speaker 1: a better world if there was less wealth inequality, not

812
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:45,560
Speaker 1: no inequality at this point, it's like less just fewer billionaires.

813
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:48,360
Speaker 1: I love that old meme. It's always stuck with me,

814
00:49:48,719 --> 00:49:51,000
Speaker 1: where they said, what you what we should do is

815
00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:54,080
Speaker 1: put a limit on capitalism. If you make if you

816
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:56,440
Speaker 1: get to the point where you make a billion dollars,

817
00:49:56,920 --> 00:50:01,040
Speaker 1: you get like a printed out plaque that says you won,

818
00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:04,840
Speaker 1: and then you gotta go start over. You know what

819
00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:09,440
Speaker 1: I mean. Let's disincentivize becoming a billionaire. That's like you

820
00:50:09,520 --> 00:50:12,040
Speaker 1: get to the end of a great video game and

821
00:50:12,160 --> 00:50:14,839
Speaker 1: you can't keep going. You want to play again, You're

822
00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:19,560
Speaker 1: back to level one, never gonna happen. Well, hey, tell

823
00:50:19,640 --> 00:50:23,240
Speaker 1: us what you think about all this stuff. Should serial killers,

824
00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:26,000
Speaker 1: you know, convicted ones, get to go to war if

825
00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:30,040
Speaker 1: they just want to? God's a weird one, Ben, That's

826
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:35,600
Speaker 1: that's so messed up? Uh? Should should AI generated art

827
00:50:36,040 --> 00:50:39,520
Speaker 1: have to deal with copyright? Oh my god, what are

828
00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:42,160
Speaker 1: we gonna do? Or should you know, the ultra rich

829
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:46,520
Speaker 1: just get text to oblivion or sky rim or wherever. Hey,

830
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:49,680
Speaker 1: I'm not saying it should even be too oblivion, you know,

831
00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:52,319
Speaker 1: at the very least, just like, let's dispense with all

832
00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:55,960
Speaker 1: the loopholes. It's it's it's it's costing us money. Well,

833
00:50:56,080 --> 00:50:58,640
Speaker 1: we want to hear your thoughts, and as always, we

834
00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:02,840
Speaker 1: greatly appreciate every buddy taking the time to check in.

835
00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:06,640
Speaker 1: Let us know what is going on in your neck

836
00:51:06,880 --> 00:51:09,920
Speaker 1: of the global woods. Talk to us about these ideas,

837
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:13,080
Speaker 1: talk to us about episodes you'd like us to cover

838
00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:15,880
Speaker 1: in the future. We can't wait to hear from you.

839
00:51:16,040 --> 00:51:20,200
Speaker 1: We try to be easy to find online Facebook, Instagram, Twitter,

840
00:51:20,719 --> 00:51:23,840
Speaker 1: um rumor has it there's a TikTok out there somewhere.

841
00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:27,640
Speaker 1: Maybe maybe, uh, maybe there's a dating site profile. I

842
00:51:27,719 --> 00:51:30,640
Speaker 1: have no idea, but but find us on one of those.

843
00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:32,919
Speaker 1: We talk to us. And if you don't sip those

844
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:35,279
Speaker 1: social meats that have no fear, just give us a

845
00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:37,600
Speaker 1: phone call. One A three S, T D W I

846
00:51:37,719 --> 00:51:40,080
Speaker 1: T K is the number to call. Leave a message.

847
00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:42,200
Speaker 1: You've got three minutes to tell us your tale, give

848
00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:44,520
Speaker 1: us your missive uh, and just make sure to let

849
00:51:44,600 --> 00:51:47,640
Speaker 1: us know what to call you, um, preferably a cool nickname.

850
00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:49,399
Speaker 1: And if we can use your voice on the show,

851
00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:51,239
Speaker 1: and you may hear yourself on one of our weekly

852
00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:53,560
Speaker 1: listener mail episodes. None of that does it for you.

853
00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:55,160
Speaker 1: Why you can get in touch with us the old

854
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Speaker 1: fashioned way. We are conspiracy at high heart radio dot com. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: stuff they don't want you to know is a production

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Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from my heart Radio,

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Speaker 1: visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

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Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.