Speaker 1: Welcome to it could happen here a podcast about things
Speaker 1: falling apart. I am Robert Evans, and today we're going
Speaker 1: to talk about a specific part of Eurasia where I
Speaker 1: don't know, things are kind of on the edge of
Speaker 1: of of falling apart and maybe becoming something else. As
Speaker 1: I'm sure most people are aware, Russia expanded its invasion
Speaker 1: of Ukraine earlier this year. UM. It has not gone well,
Speaker 1: and the government has recently announced that they are doing
Speaker 1: a general mobilization and bringing another three thousand soldiers into
Speaker 1: their armed forces. UH. The significant chunk, if not the bulk,
Speaker 1: of these recruitments are coming from areas away from the
Speaker 1: on the periphery of Russian power, you might say, UM,
Speaker 1: particularly different chunks of the Russian state, UM, where there
Speaker 1: are minority populations who have been UH dissident to the
Speaker 1: to the Federation of Russia in the past. UM. Probably
Speaker 1: the most active of the is a place called Dagistan UM.
Speaker 1: Most Americans probably are not super well versed on this area.
Speaker 1: It is the furthest southern point in the Russian State.
Speaker 1: It borders Azerbaijan. UM. It's pretty close to Turkey and UH.
Speaker 1: This is a region that has a massive Muslim population
Speaker 1: and has been the side a whole lot of resistance
Speaker 1: to the Russian state in the recent past. And today
Speaker 1: we're going to be talking about what that looks like
Speaker 1: now as the government is attempting to draft men from
Speaker 1: this part of the state and and as sort of
Speaker 1: resistance has risen up significantly within Dagistan UM. I'm going
Speaker 1: to be talking with Karina Avidisition. Karina is a PhD
Speaker 1: studying social movements in particularly in Russia. UM. Karina, welcome
Speaker 1: to the show. Thanks for having me. UM. So, first off,
Speaker 1: I'm not an expert on on Dagistan UM. What do
Speaker 1: you think is important for people to know about the
Speaker 1: relationship between this region and the Russian state. UM. It's
Speaker 1: the biggest republic in the North Caucasus UM, and it
Speaker 1: has actually independent media still depe despite the really intense
Speaker 1: repression UM and the dozens of disappeared or murdered journalists
Speaker 1: from from the republic. UM. Kinship ties are strong Indugistan.
Speaker 1: So the announcement of mobilization and the kind of you know,
Speaker 1: the start of the mobilization process UM really affects people
Speaker 1: because extended families are closed. So when someone has taken
Speaker 1: away affects a lot of people. UM. So that um,
Speaker 1: in large part kind of explains the level of mobilization.
Speaker 1: The other thing I want to mention is that the
Speaker 1: North Caucasus region in general, but especially Dugistan and Chechnia UM,
Speaker 1: just kind of don't see themselves as part of Russia. UM.
Speaker 1: To be honest, Russians don't really care about what happens
Speaker 1: there either. I mean, you know, it's as if it's
Speaker 1: another country and there's this huge disconnect um. So there
Speaker 1: doesn't really exist this kind of civic Russian identity um.
Speaker 1: And the concept of Russia as a country is to
Speaker 1: a large extent held together by sheer oppression and propagania. UM. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's kind of kind of way I try to focus on,
Speaker 1: like this is a part of the Russian state rather
Speaker 1: than like these areas are Russian, because that's certainly not
Speaker 1: the way it feels on the ground or the people
Speaker 1: feel about themselves. Yeah, exactly. UM. And you can kind
Speaker 1: of see differences in the way police respond to these
Speaker 1: protests in Russian regions versus places like Dagistan. Um. In
Speaker 1: Russian regions and by Russian region, I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: places where you know, Russian ethnic Russians are a majority. Um,
Speaker 1: you have people or you have police kind of arresting
Speaker 1: or detaining interesting protesters, whereas in Dakistan, UM, you know,
Speaker 1: the tactics of the arrest sing people. You know, her
Speaker 1: being kind of carted off is really significant because of
Speaker 1: the history of violence in the republic. UM, So abductions, UM,
Speaker 1: disappearances and murder is very common. UM. And this is
Speaker 1: something that I've heard Dakistani protest participants kind of expressed
Speaker 1: to fear about. Like, you know, people know that that
Speaker 1: might happen. You might get identified among the protesters, and
Speaker 1: you might not get detained interested like you would you
Speaker 1: know in Moscow for example, but you might get you know,
Speaker 1: identified and then kind of targeted later, which is yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean obviously very frightening. UM. One of the things
Speaker 1: that I had read kind of about part some of
Speaker 1: the origins of the conflict in the region right now
Speaker 1: is that it had been common for some time because
Speaker 1: the the economy in Dagistan. Dakistan is in the Caucusus,
Speaker 1: which is a mountainous region in southern Russia, and it's
Speaker 1: where a great deal of the country's fuel comes from. UM.
Speaker 1: There are kind of folks who will say that the
Speaker 1: government of the Federation has like avoided utilizing that infrastructure
Speaker 1: to the most that it can to avoid providing jobs,
Speaker 1: and it's made a lot of young men joined the
Speaker 1: military to become contract soldiers. In the past, that was
Speaker 1: a good way to provide for if you had a
Speaker 1: large family, you do a military contract, you're not going
Speaker 1: to get sent outside of the region. It's pretty safe.
Speaker 1: But then of course Putin invades Ukraine and suddenly a
Speaker 1: lot of these people who had been doing this not
Speaker 1: because they wanted to support the Russian Federation because it
Speaker 1: was a job, are suddenly being sent to go fight
Speaker 1: and die in outside of Kharkiv or wherever. Yeah, the
Speaker 1: other thing is that's why there's so many security personnel
Speaker 1: kind of internally in the Republic as well. So the
Speaker 1: republic experience it's high unemployment UM. That's mentioned poverty UM,
Speaker 1: and it's almost by design rights so many people just
Speaker 1: relying on the state for jobs and security UM services
Speaker 1: as one of the main UM sources of employment. But
Speaker 1: that also kind of has that double effect of UM
Speaker 1: you know, being used as a tool for repression. So
Speaker 1: any time kind of descent comes up, even you know,
Speaker 1: when a large part of the grievances are about poverty
Speaker 1: and unemployment and just kind of having a future, you
Speaker 1: have UM a kind of excess of people who are
Speaker 1: ready to kind of suppress UM any expression of kind
Speaker 1: of descent that might lead to problems later. And it
Speaker 1: seems like a great deal of discent right now is
Speaker 1: coming from UM, the Muslim pop in particularly like the
Speaker 1: Muslim religious community within Dagastan. The reason that you and
Speaker 1: I are talking right now is you you shared and
Speaker 1: commented on a post um without someone was sharing a
Speaker 1: piece of protest art um that was referencing a recent
Speaker 1: comment by the Deputy Mufti of Dagastan Um and it's
Speaker 1: a stylized drawing of several mountains on a green background
Speaker 1: that says the invader doesn't become a martyr. And if
Speaker 1: I'm interpreting that correctly, what what that's saying is, it's
Speaker 1: it's a statement of protests from within the Islamic community
Speaker 1: of Dagastan saying if you go to someone else's homeland
Speaker 1: to take part in an invasion and you die, you're
Speaker 1: not being martyred, You're not dying in a way that
Speaker 1: is that is, you know, uh, respected by a law essentially.
Speaker 1: Is that am I? Am I interpreting that correctly? Yeah? Absolutely, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's exactly what it's saying. I found that remarkable, UM
Speaker 1: for a couple of reasons. UM. The first is that
Speaker 1: descend in the region originally, so you know, after the
Speaker 1: colops of the Soviet Union and then the First Church
Speaker 1: in War, there was descent, but it was mostly limited
Speaker 1: to ethno nationalist movements who were very narrow in their messaging.
Speaker 1: So their grievances were you know, just about their one
Speaker 1: ethnic group and you know, whatever repression that they experienced.
Speaker 1: So UM, they kind of missed out on broader support,
Speaker 1: and political Islam became a channel for UM kind of
Speaker 1: representing oppositional identity. UM. And because of that cutting across
Speaker 1: the ethnic lines through selfism, which is UM kind of
Speaker 1: a stricter interpretation of Islam, which is prone to radicalization. UM,
Speaker 1: that had much broader support and posed a significant threat
Speaker 1: to Moscow. And I want to kind of make a
Speaker 1: parallel here because mosques and religious communities across the world
Speaker 1: are actually really UM interesting spaces for social movement mobilization. UM.
Speaker 1: Some of the earliest works on social movement mobilization talked
Speaker 1: about black churches in the US as being you know,
Speaker 1: key to the civil rights movement because you know, these
Speaker 1: spaces that are kind of away from the state, away
Speaker 1: from surveillance. Although in Legistan and lots of parts of
Speaker 1: Russian Muslim spaces are are up totally unfiltrated by the
Speaker 1: state or they're actually you know, state most these or
Speaker 1: the state's eyes and ears are kind of there. But
Speaker 1: still there's these spaces, and I think that's a big,
Speaker 1: kind of, um significant key factor in how this movement
Speaker 1: has been able to mobilize and interested in because obviously
Speaker 1: Chechnia is another part of Russia that has a large
Speaker 1: Muslim population. There was a horrible war, they're not all
Speaker 1: that long ago. That is really a prelude in a
Speaker 1: lot of waste, the kinds of violence and the kinds
Speaker 1: of repressive tactics that are being used right now by
Speaker 1: the Russian state. Um, what what sort of separates like
Speaker 1: why didn't Dagastan kind of go the same way as
Speaker 1: czech Nia? Like how I'm kind of interested in in
Speaker 1: and that because it seems as if the muftis there
Speaker 1: are much more willing to kind of act in resistance
Speaker 1: to the States. Still, is it just a factor of
Speaker 1: the violence that was unleashed on Chechnya earlier? Is there
Speaker 1: more to it? Um? I think in large part it's yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's the legacy of violence and war um
Speaker 1: in Chechnia. But I think it's partly because of how
Speaker 1: this kind of historical view of touching as being um,
Speaker 1: you know, a threat a problem for the Russian Empire previously,
Speaker 1: and then Soviet Union and then you know independent Russia,
Speaker 1: you know, um. And it's really the rule of Ramzan Kadetto,
Speaker 1: which plays a really suppressing role in the republic and
Speaker 1: his security services. Chechnia has experienced post war. I would
Speaker 1: argue it's it's calmer and in a in a strange way.
Speaker 1: I mean, I was when I was doing my field
Speaker 1: work in the North Cooxus, I visited Czechnia. I was
Speaker 1: in Cambard Noble Karia, which is you know, a couple
Speaker 1: of republics over um it didn't experience war, but I
Speaker 1: remember at the time there were counter terrorists operations and
Speaker 1: carver Do No Bulkaria where the security services would kind
Speaker 1: of lock down whole neighborhoods and kind of storm impartment
Speaker 1: buildings to go after someone who had been you know,
Speaker 1: identified as a problem and just kind of, you know,
Speaker 1: neutralize that person. They were rarely detained, they were just
Speaker 1: kind of killed, no questions us. Then going to Chechnia
Speaker 1: from that kind of context, that stuff doesn't happen, just
Speaker 1: because the security apparatus is so strong and so intense
Speaker 1: that that kind of thing doesn't happen. At the same time,
Speaker 1: you feel that tension, that kind of fear. Um. So
Speaker 1: I think that's the main reason why, um, you're not
Speaker 1: seeing these sort of protests in Chechnya when we talk
Speaker 1: about like what is it reasonable to hope for here?
Speaker 1: I wonder if you have any thoughts on that from
Speaker 1: Dagastan like in in terms of resistance to both this
Speaker 1: kind of general conscription order and resistance in general to
Speaker 1: the to the increasing imperial aims of the Russian state. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think it's revealing those tracks that I mentioned in
Speaker 1: the beginning about identity and then kind of this this
Speaker 1: region not feeling like a part of Russia. And I think, um,
Speaker 1: the other thing is that it it it's unprecedented in
Speaker 1: many ways just in terms of its messaging, and you
Speaker 1: protest movements in general are seemed to kind of when
Speaker 1: you participate it in a movement, UM, it's it's sort
Speaker 1: of transforming. On an individual level. You feel like you're
Speaker 1: part of something. You see all these other people on
Speaker 1: the street, who are you agreeing with you in a
Speaker 1: context that's so authoritarian where and you don't you know,
Speaker 1: have that freedom to speak out there's no free media. UM.
Speaker 1: In general. UM it's it's it's transformative. And I think
Speaker 1: that's probably for me, at least as a social movement scholar,
Speaker 1: the most interesting aspects. I mean, we can't predict, we
Speaker 1: don't know what's going to happen. There might be in
Speaker 1: a new wave of repression. UM, but it's it's revealing
Speaker 1: these cracks and UM kind of almost providing this proof
Speaker 1: of the the lie of this you know, unified Russian
Speaker 1: state that that is being kept together by a repression
Speaker 1: and propaganda. UM. I think the messaging also reflects a
Speaker 1: change in identity, in oppositional identity in the region. UM.
Speaker 1: Previously protests in the region were directed at the local leadership,
Speaker 1: so at the republican level, right, so these are usually
Speaker 1: co ethnics who are installed by Moscow. Not so much
Speaker 1: to govern, but more to manage UM and check and leader.
Speaker 1: Ransankado is an extreme case of this, and it was
Speaker 1: a practice common in Imperial Russia. Right, you install your
Speaker 1: own guy, but he's local, so it sits better with
Speaker 1: the population, even if they're only there to carry out
Speaker 1: policies that are decided and UM. So those protest movements
Speaker 1: were normally against the Republican authorities, um, their excesses, their corruption,
Speaker 1: um you know. And again the exception to that is philotism,
Speaker 1: which was targeting both Moscow and the local leadership. But
Speaker 1: here in this new wave of protest movement, the sentiment
Speaker 1: the grievances against Putin and that's totally now. And I
Speaker 1: one of the things that is kind of remarkable is
Speaker 1: as you've gotten in the wave of and these are
Speaker 1: not just in Dagistan, but Dagastan had a lot of
Speaker 1: the protest against this general mobilization order, you actually have
Speaker 1: what what looks to me and you're you're certainly certainly
Speaker 1: no more than I do. So tell me if you
Speaker 1: think my analysis, if this is wrong, but looks to
Speaker 1: me like the regime blinking a little bit. Because in
Speaker 1: the wake of the protests you had both Putin and
Speaker 1: a number of different local leaders come out and say
Speaker 1: we because one of the things that was happening as
Speaker 1: soon as the mobilization started, as you saw a lot
Speaker 1: of these people, including like doctors, healthcare workers, other kinds
Speaker 1: of professionals and industries that are generally protected from this
Speaker 1: sort of thing getting pulled in by state forces and
Speaker 1: effectively drafted on the spot along with protesters and um.
Speaker 1: The in the wake of the outcry against that, Putin
Speaker 1: himself and a number of other local leaders have come
Speaker 1: out and been like, this was a mistake. We're releasing
Speaker 1: a number of these people, these these certain certain you know,
Speaker 1: we're not supposed to be drafting people from these certain
Speaker 1: professions and whatnot. And to me that looked like, well,
Speaker 1: maybe that's a little bit of a blink, um, But
Speaker 1: I don't know if perhaps I'm being overly optimistic there No,
Speaker 1: I agree, um. And it speaks to the level of mobilization,
Speaker 1: that kind of unprecedented um um levels of mobilization on
Speaker 1: the street, and also speaks to the fact that you know,
Speaker 1: previously Moscow, I mean they didn't care as much when
Speaker 1: the protests were directed at the local authorities. I mean
Speaker 1: they did, but not like this, this is this is
Speaker 1: threatening UM. And I was listening to an interview of
Speaker 1: a protest organizer from Augustan. He's exiled, like he's kind
Speaker 1: of you know, in touch with the people on the
Speaker 1: ground and he and he was talking about how he
Speaker 1: felt that the reason mobilization orders have been UM commissioned
Speaker 1: kind of to the Republican regional authorities is on purpose
Speaker 1: so that grievances UM aren't directed towards Moscow, because it's
Speaker 1: the regional authorities deciding on who's being mobilized UM. And
Speaker 1: it's a kind of deflection of aim that he thought
Speaker 1: was by design. And the interviewer asked him a couple
Speaker 1: of other questions. He was saying, oh, you know, we're
Speaker 1: hearing reports about the police being really brutal UM. And
Speaker 1: again he was like, no, not really, or that's not
Speaker 1: the point, that's not the question to be asking. It's
Speaker 1: actually deflecting because again, the grievance is not to the
Speaker 1: local police, it's actually towards Moscow. Who is you know,
Speaker 1: the origin of this whole problem. And I think that's
Speaker 1: that's a threat. Do you have any kind of advice
Speaker 1: for people if they're looking as kind of things continue
Speaker 1: to develop in Dagistan, as there are more protests, which
Speaker 1: I'm sure there will be, are there actually like organizations
Speaker 1: over there that can be supported by people, um, including
Speaker 1: you mentioned independent media there. UM. I'm just wondering if
Speaker 1: you have any kind of particular advice for folks who
Speaker 1: might either want to learn more about the region what's
Speaker 1: going on, um, or who might want to try and
Speaker 1: help the people who are protesting right now. UM. Unfortunately,
Speaker 1: there's um not much for our siders to do a
Speaker 1: lot of the news, and I think it was kind
Speaker 1: of expecting that. An. Yeah, yeah, it's like it's kind
Speaker 1: of a denied context. So where I get the news
Speaker 1: is a couple of telegram channels that are only in Russian. UM,
Speaker 1: so that probably doesn't help your audience if they don't
Speaker 1: speak Russian. There's a couple of Twitter accounts that I
Speaker 1: would recommend people follow, you know, UM there's UM, I
Speaker 1: don't know, I can mention that or yeah please no, absolutely,
Speaker 1: let me quickly find the guide personally. When it comes
Speaker 1: to like where I'm able to get English language news
Speaker 1: about the region, MEDUSA is generally kind of like one
Speaker 1: of the places where I've gotten some MEDUSA is a
Speaker 1: Russian news site that's or news organization that's banned in Russia.
Speaker 1: In fact, if I'm not mistaken, a MEDUSA journalist just
Speaker 1: got arrested in Dagastan by the State Security Services. UM.
Speaker 1: But you can go to to Dousa dot io and
Speaker 1: that's one place where I've come across news that's English language. UM.
Speaker 1: It's not the most detailed coverage, but it's kind of
Speaker 1: hard to find that in English about stuff going on
Speaker 1: in Dagistan. It is, it is hard to find, and
Speaker 1: I would echo that sentiment of MEDUSA being a good
Speaker 1: source for that. UM. There's a researcher on Twitter named
Speaker 1: Harold Chambers. His handle is Chambers Harold eight, the number eight,
Speaker 1: and he is an analyst and he is posting kind
Speaker 1: of more detailed, you know, in the weeds, up to
Speaker 1: you know, up to date, day to day developments from
Speaker 1: from the region. UM. And is there anything like as
Speaker 1: as we I'm kind of closing out here, UM, that
Speaker 1: you wanted to particularly get into about what's happening over
Speaker 1: there about kind of, um, the development of social movements
Speaker 1: in Dagistan right now that you you find particularly fascinating
Speaker 1: that you'd like to kind of talk about to the audience. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think, um, the context of the Russian war on
Speaker 1: terrorism in the North, because this praised a huge role
Speaker 1: here UM. And I mentioned, you know, the counter terrorists
Speaker 1: operations that that Marcia used to use in the region
Speaker 1: as a repression tool UM, so they didn't have to
Speaker 1: be seal office or kind of you know, seeing this
Speaker 1: extremists to be targeted and stuff like that, like secular
Speaker 1: Dukistani's and Chechens were absolutely targeted, and and that kind
Speaker 1: of in those UM in in those UM in that
Speaker 1: context of counter terrorism. And it's really the fact that
Speaker 1: your Dugist studies are really tired of the repression. People
Speaker 1: leave the Republic and move abroad UM because they've been
Speaker 1: labeled a terrorist and they don't want to die UM.
Speaker 1: And when their family send them money UM to support
Speaker 1: them abroad, they get um labeled as terrorists because they're helping,
Speaker 1: you know, support a terrorists. So it's it's why it's
Speaker 1: also why the movement is leaderless UM, because there's really
Speaker 1: no intelligencia or leaders left in the republic um anymore.
Speaker 1: Anyone who had any kind of critical standpoint UM has
Speaker 1: either been killed or exile, so we have to see
Speaker 1: the mobilization in Augusta is kind of you know, with
Speaker 1: that backdrop. People are tired of the repression. Um and
Speaker 1: and yeah, the protests are spontaneous, and the fact that
Speaker 1: it's horizontal is also unprecedented, and it obviously means that
Speaker 1: it's much harder to repress the movement and suppress it
Speaker 1: because there's no individuals to kind of target. That's interesting
Speaker 1: because that's obviously a global trend that we've seen in
Speaker 1: protest movements, not just against the Russian state, but around
Speaker 1: the world. Governments have gotten much better at not finding
Speaker 1: leaders in protest movements, compromising them, going after them, targeting them,
Speaker 1: arresting them. Um. It's and I think this has been
Speaker 1: a part of why all over the world you've seen
Speaker 1: so many more horizontal movements leading street protests against different
Speaker 1: kinds of oppression, because it's really the only thing that
Speaker 1: can't be compromised easily by the security forces. Yeah, especially
Speaker 1: in an authoritarian contexts. Yeah. Well, um, Karina, is there
Speaker 1: anything else you wanted to say before we close out? No, No,
Speaker 1: that's it all right. Well, why don't we talk a
Speaker 1: little bit about your plugs here? Because you have a
Speaker 1: podcast that you're about to be starting. Yeah, I'm starting
Speaker 1: a podcast. It is called Obscure ston Podcasts, where we'll
Speaker 1: talk about the bizarre and fucked up nature of the
Speaker 1: region of eur Asia. Um, but also more importantly how
Speaker 1: it got that way. Yeah, so that's what we're doing.
Speaker 1: I can think a few more topics, more important topics
Speaker 1: for people, particularly people just where I live. To understand,
Speaker 1: so many people have been affected in in You know,
Speaker 1: we're looking at the energy crisis hitting the UK and
Speaker 1: and to a slightly lesser extent, continental Europe. Right now,
Speaker 1: we're looking at rising food prices in the United States,
Speaker 1: all of it tied to this conflict, which people wouldn't
Speaker 1: have been surprised by if they'd been paying attention to
Speaker 1: Eurasian history and politics a little bit more. Um. So
Speaker 1: I I think that's a commendable effort and I'm excited
Speaker 1: to start listening. UM. Thank you so much. Yes, can
Speaker 1: I mentioned one last thing? So I'm I'm sitting in
Speaker 1: Armenia and speaking to you from Armenia. So, UM, I
Speaker 1: would just encourage your listeners to find out about what's happening.
Speaker 1: We were recently attacked bios preson and um, we have
Speaker 1: some four d Ande score kilometers that are currently occupied
Speaker 1: by us by Janni soldiers. So I would encourage people
Speaker 1: to learn about the conflict and kind of pay attention
Speaker 1: to what's happening here. Yeah. Absolutely, Um, we continue to
Speaker 1: be big advocates for folks paying attention to that. Um.
Speaker 1: And uh yeah, it's it's I don't know, you know,
Speaker 1: I had this brief period of like optimism when the
Speaker 1: White House started making statements and Pelosi visited that, like
Speaker 1: and we'll see maybe that. I know there's like there's
Speaker 1: a vote coming up right now in Congress to stop
Speaker 1: selling weapons to these aries, which would be at least
Speaker 1: a start. Um. But I mean, you know, it's the
Speaker 1: what's I think is necessary is for our media to
Speaker 1: have access to the kind of weapons that have been
Speaker 1: so successful at stopping for an aggression in other countries.
Speaker 1: Shall we say? Yeah, yeah, Well all right, Coriina, thank
Speaker 1: you so much for your time. That's gonna be our
Speaker 1: show for the day. Have a good one. Everybody keep
Speaker 1: paying attention to stuff it could happen here. As a
Speaker 1: production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool
Speaker 1: Zone Media, visit our website Cool zone media dot com
Speaker 1: or check us out on the I Heart Radio app,
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