WEBVTT - Protesting Russia in Dagestan 0:00:04.880 --> 0:00:07.760 Welcome to it could happen here a podcast about things 0:00:07.880 --> 0:00:11.400 falling apart. I am Robert Evans, and today we're going 0:00:11.440 --> 0:00:15.160 to talk about a specific part of Eurasia where I 0:00:15.160 --> 0:00:17.119 don't know, things are kind of on the edge of 0:00:17.120 --> 0:00:19.840 of of falling apart and maybe becoming something else. As 0:00:19.880 --> 0:00:24.360 I'm sure most people are aware, Russia expanded its invasion 0:00:24.360 --> 0:00:27.760 of Ukraine earlier this year. UM. It has not gone well, 0:00:27.880 --> 0:00:31.280 and the government has recently announced that they are doing 0:00:31.320 --> 0:00:35.400 a general mobilization and bringing another three thousand soldiers into 0:00:35.479 --> 0:00:39.760 their armed forces. UH. The significant chunk, if not the bulk, 0:00:39.880 --> 0:00:42.600 of these recruitments are coming from areas away from the 0:00:42.920 --> 0:00:46.080 on the periphery of Russian power, you might say, UM, 0:00:46.240 --> 0:00:50.279 particularly different chunks of the Russian state, UM, where there 0:00:50.320 --> 0:00:55.040 are minority populations who have been UH dissident to the 0:00:55.120 --> 0:00:58.600 to the Federation of Russia in the past. UM. Probably 0:00:58.640 --> 0:01:02.400 the most active of the is a place called Dagistan UM. 0:01:02.400 --> 0:01:05.279 Most Americans probably are not super well versed on this area. 0:01:05.360 --> 0:01:08.520 It is the furthest southern point in the Russian State. 0:01:08.880 --> 0:01:13.319 It borders Azerbaijan. UM. It's pretty close to Turkey and UH. 0:01:13.360 --> 0:01:16.640 This is a region that has a massive Muslim population 0:01:16.800 --> 0:01:19.040 and has been the side a whole lot of resistance 0:01:19.080 --> 0:01:21.959 to the Russian state in the recent past. And today 0:01:21.959 --> 0:01:24.000 we're going to be talking about what that looks like 0:01:24.080 --> 0:01:28.119 now as the government is attempting to draft men from 0:01:28.120 --> 0:01:33.440 this part of the state and and as sort of 0:01:33.720 --> 0:01:37.640 resistance has risen up significantly within Dagistan UM. I'm going 0:01:37.680 --> 0:01:41.560 to be talking with Karina Avidisition. Karina is a PhD 0:01:41.640 --> 0:01:46.520 studying social movements in particularly in Russia. UM. Karina, welcome 0:01:46.560 --> 0:01:50.840 to the show. Thanks for having me. UM. So, first off, 0:01:50.880 --> 0:01:54.120 I'm not an expert on on Dagistan UM. What do 0:01:54.160 --> 0:01:57.720 you think is important for people to know about the 0:01:57.800 --> 0:02:03.920 relationship between this region and the Russian state. UM. It's 0:02:03.960 --> 0:02:09.440 the biggest republic in the North Caucasus UM, and it 0:02:09.520 --> 0:02:14.080 has actually independent media still depe despite the really intense 0:02:14.080 --> 0:02:18.559 repression UM and the dozens of disappeared or murdered journalists 0:02:18.639 --> 0:02:23.960 from from the republic. UM. Kinship ties are strong Indugistan. 0:02:24.160 --> 0:02:27.320 So the announcement of mobilization and the kind of you know, 0:02:27.400 --> 0:02:31.880 the start of the mobilization process UM really affects people 0:02:31.880 --> 0:02:34.600 because extended families are closed. So when someone has taken 0:02:34.639 --> 0:02:38.160 away affects a lot of people. UM. So that um, 0:02:38.240 --> 0:02:41.240 in large part kind of explains the level of mobilization. 0:02:42.000 --> 0:02:44.680 The other thing I want to mention is that the 0:02:44.720 --> 0:02:50.359 North Caucasus region in general, but especially Dugistan and Chechnia UM, 0:02:50.840 --> 0:02:54.679 just kind of don't see themselves as part of Russia. UM. 0:02:54.760 --> 0:02:58.440 To be honest, Russians don't really care about what happens 0:02:58.480 --> 0:03:00.919 there either. I mean, you know, it's as if it's 0:03:00.960 --> 0:03:05.200 another country and there's this huge disconnect um. So there 0:03:05.240 --> 0:03:09.320 doesn't really exist this kind of civic Russian identity um. 0:03:09.360 --> 0:03:11.720 And the concept of Russia as a country is to 0:03:11.800 --> 0:03:17.480 a large extent held together by sheer oppression and propagania. UM. Yeah, 0:03:17.520 --> 0:03:19.640 that's kind of kind of way I try to focus on, 0:03:19.720 --> 0:03:21.959 like this is a part of the Russian state rather 0:03:22.000 --> 0:03:24.560 than like these areas are Russian, because that's certainly not 0:03:24.680 --> 0:03:26.400 the way it feels on the ground or the people 0:03:26.440 --> 0:03:31.839 feel about themselves. Yeah, exactly. UM. And you can kind 0:03:31.840 --> 0:03:35.240 of see differences in the way police respond to these 0:03:35.240 --> 0:03:41.080 protests in Russian regions versus places like Dagistan. Um. In 0:03:41.200 --> 0:03:43.600 Russian regions and by Russian region, I mean, you know, 0:03:43.640 --> 0:03:47.560 places where you know, Russian ethnic Russians are a majority. Um, 0:03:47.720 --> 0:03:50.440 you have people or you have police kind of arresting 0:03:50.560 --> 0:03:56.800 or detaining interesting protesters, whereas in Dakistan, UM, you know, 0:03:57.760 --> 0:04:01.360 the tactics of the arrest sing people. You know, her 0:04:01.440 --> 0:04:04.240 being kind of carted off is really significant because of 0:04:04.280 --> 0:04:08.920 the history of violence in the republic. UM, So abductions, UM, 0:04:09.320 --> 0:04:12.840 disappearances and murder is very common. UM. And this is 0:04:12.880 --> 0:04:17.760 something that I've heard Dakistani protest participants kind of expressed 0:04:17.800 --> 0:04:20.240 to fear about. Like, you know, people know that that 0:04:20.320 --> 0:04:24.120 might happen. You might get identified among the protesters, and 0:04:24.440 --> 0:04:26.520 you might not get detained interested like you would you 0:04:26.560 --> 0:04:28.919 know in Moscow for example, but you might get you know, 0:04:28.960 --> 0:04:33.240 identified and then kind of targeted later, which is yeah, 0:04:33.279 --> 0:04:36.680 I mean obviously very frightening. UM. One of the things 0:04:36.680 --> 0:04:40.360 that I had read kind of about part some of 0:04:40.400 --> 0:04:43.040 the origins of the conflict in the region right now 0:04:43.120 --> 0:04:46.080 is that it had been common for some time because 0:04:46.160 --> 0:04:49.760 the the economy in Dagistan. Dakistan is in the Caucusus, 0:04:49.760 --> 0:04:52.120 which is a mountainous region in southern Russia, and it's 0:04:52.160 --> 0:04:55.960 where a great deal of the country's fuel comes from. UM. 0:04:56.000 --> 0:04:58.360 There are kind of folks who will say that the 0:04:59.640 --> 0:05:04.440 government of the Federation has like avoided utilizing that infrastructure 0:05:04.440 --> 0:05:06.679 to the most that it can to avoid providing jobs, 0:05:06.760 --> 0:05:09.440 and it's made a lot of young men joined the 0:05:09.520 --> 0:05:12.240 military to become contract soldiers. In the past, that was 0:05:12.279 --> 0:05:14.200 a good way to provide for if you had a 0:05:14.279 --> 0:05:17.159 large family, you do a military contract, you're not going 0:05:17.200 --> 0:05:20.159 to get sent outside of the region. It's pretty safe. 0:05:20.240 --> 0:05:23.120 But then of course Putin invades Ukraine and suddenly a 0:05:23.120 --> 0:05:25.320 lot of these people who had been doing this not 0:05:25.480 --> 0:05:28.479 because they wanted to support the Russian Federation because it 0:05:28.520 --> 0:05:31.080 was a job, are suddenly being sent to go fight 0:05:31.120 --> 0:05:35.640 and die in outside of Kharkiv or wherever. Yeah, the 0:05:35.680 --> 0:05:38.320 other thing is that's why there's so many security personnel 0:05:38.440 --> 0:05:40.520 kind of internally in the Republic as well. So the 0:05:40.560 --> 0:05:45.360 republic experience it's high unemployment UM. That's mentioned poverty UM, 0:05:45.400 --> 0:05:47.880 and it's almost by design rights so many people just 0:05:47.920 --> 0:05:51.719 relying on the state for jobs and security UM services 0:05:51.760 --> 0:05:54.960 as one of the main UM sources of employment. But 0:05:55.000 --> 0:05:57.720 that also kind of has that double effect of UM 0:05:58.040 --> 0:06:00.040 you know, being used as a tool for repression. So 0:06:00.040 --> 0:06:02.040 any time kind of descent comes up, even you know, 0:06:02.440 --> 0:06:05.920 when a large part of the grievances are about poverty 0:06:05.960 --> 0:06:08.279 and unemployment and just kind of having a future, you 0:06:08.360 --> 0:06:13.240 have UM a kind of excess of people who are 0:06:13.320 --> 0:06:16.880 ready to kind of suppress UM any expression of kind 0:06:16.920 --> 0:06:20.760 of descent that might lead to problems later. And it 0:06:20.800 --> 0:06:23.680 seems like a great deal of discent right now is 0:06:23.760 --> 0:06:27.160 coming from UM, the Muslim pop in particularly like the 0:06:27.240 --> 0:06:30.800 Muslim religious community within Dagastan. The reason that you and 0:06:30.839 --> 0:06:33.320 I are talking right now is you you shared and 0:06:33.360 --> 0:06:37.400 commented on a post um without someone was sharing a 0:06:37.440 --> 0:06:41.000 piece of protest art um that was referencing a recent 0:06:41.040 --> 0:06:45.400 comment by the Deputy Mufti of Dagastan Um and it's 0:06:46.000 --> 0:06:49.640 a stylized drawing of several mountains on a green background 0:06:49.640 --> 0:06:52.720 that says the invader doesn't become a martyr. And if 0:06:52.760 --> 0:06:55.560 I'm interpreting that correctly, what what that's saying is, it's 0:06:55.640 --> 0:06:58.120 it's a statement of protests from within the Islamic community 0:06:58.120 --> 0:07:01.360 of Dagastan saying if you go to someone else's homeland 0:07:01.440 --> 0:07:04.560 to take part in an invasion and you die, you're 0:07:04.600 --> 0:07:06.919 not being martyred, You're not dying in a way that 0:07:07.040 --> 0:07:11.800 is that is, you know, uh, respected by a law essentially. 0:07:12.000 --> 0:07:15.880 Is that am I? Am I interpreting that correctly? Yeah? Absolutely, Yeah, 0:07:15.920 --> 0:07:18.800 that's exactly what it's saying. I found that remarkable, UM 0:07:18.840 --> 0:07:21.160 for a couple of reasons. UM. The first is that 0:07:22.080 --> 0:07:24.760 descend in the region originally, so you know, after the 0:07:24.760 --> 0:07:26.840 colops of the Soviet Union and then the First Church 0:07:26.840 --> 0:07:29.560 in War, there was descent, but it was mostly limited 0:07:29.600 --> 0:07:33.880 to ethno nationalist movements who were very narrow in their messaging. 0:07:34.000 --> 0:07:37.400 So their grievances were you know, just about their one 0:07:37.440 --> 0:07:40.080 ethnic group and you know, whatever repression that they experienced. 0:07:40.160 --> 0:07:43.600 So UM, they kind of missed out on broader support, 0:07:44.200 --> 0:07:50.200 and political Islam became a channel for UM kind of 0:07:50.240 --> 0:07:56.720 representing oppositional identity. UM. And because of that cutting across 0:07:56.800 --> 0:08:00.240 the ethnic lines through selfism, which is UM kind of 0:08:00.240 --> 0:08:05.360 a stricter interpretation of Islam, which is prone to radicalization. UM, 0:08:05.440 --> 0:08:09.800 that had much broader support and posed a significant threat 0:08:09.840 --> 0:08:11.680 to Moscow. And I want to kind of make a 0:08:11.680 --> 0:08:17.000 parallel here because mosques and religious communities across the world 0:08:17.000 --> 0:08:22.880 are actually really UM interesting spaces for social movement mobilization. UM. 0:08:23.000 --> 0:08:26.239 Some of the earliest works on social movement mobilization talked 0:08:26.240 --> 0:08:30.720 about black churches in the US as being you know, 0:08:31.120 --> 0:08:33.320 key to the civil rights movement because you know, these 0:08:33.320 --> 0:08:35.920 spaces that are kind of away from the state, away 0:08:35.960 --> 0:08:39.839 from surveillance. Although in Legistan and lots of parts of 0:08:39.960 --> 0:08:44.120 Russian Muslim spaces are are up totally unfiltrated by the 0:08:44.120 --> 0:08:46.880 state or they're actually you know, state most these or 0:08:47.800 --> 0:08:50.200 the state's eyes and ears are kind of there. But 0:08:50.400 --> 0:08:53.560 still there's these spaces, and I think that's a big, 0:08:53.679 --> 0:08:57.280 kind of, um significant key factor in how this movement 0:08:57.280 --> 0:09:01.600 has been able to mobilize and interested in because obviously 0:09:02.040 --> 0:09:04.240 Chechnia is another part of Russia that has a large 0:09:04.280 --> 0:09:08.120 Muslim population. There was a horrible war, they're not all 0:09:08.160 --> 0:09:10.960 that long ago. That is really a prelude in a 0:09:10.960 --> 0:09:13.040 lot of waste, the kinds of violence and the kinds 0:09:13.040 --> 0:09:15.320 of repressive tactics that are being used right now by 0:09:15.320 --> 0:09:20.400 the Russian state. Um, what what sort of separates like 0:09:20.440 --> 0:09:23.160 why didn't Dagastan kind of go the same way as 0:09:23.160 --> 0:09:27.040 czech Nia? Like how I'm kind of interested in in 0:09:27.880 --> 0:09:31.480 and that because it seems as if the muftis there 0:09:31.520 --> 0:09:34.640 are much more willing to kind of act in resistance 0:09:34.679 --> 0:09:36.720 to the States. Still, is it just a factor of 0:09:36.720 --> 0:09:39.079 the violence that was unleashed on Chechnya earlier? Is there 0:09:39.080 --> 0:09:43.560 more to it? Um? I think in large part it's yeah. 0:09:43.600 --> 0:09:46.240 I mean, that's the legacy of violence and war um 0:09:46.280 --> 0:09:48.960 in Chechnia. But I think it's partly because of how 0:09:49.679 --> 0:09:52.840 this kind of historical view of touching as being um, 0:09:52.880 --> 0:09:56.200 you know, a threat a problem for the Russian Empire previously, 0:09:56.240 --> 0:09:58.800 and then Soviet Union and then you know independent Russia, 0:09:59.600 --> 0:10:03.640 you know, um. And it's really the rule of Ramzan Kadetto, 0:10:04.320 --> 0:10:09.480 which plays a really suppressing role in the republic and 0:10:09.559 --> 0:10:15.920 his security services. Chechnia has experienced post war. I would 0:10:16.000 --> 0:10:19.080 argue it's it's calmer and in a in a strange way. 0:10:19.160 --> 0:10:20.960 I mean, I was when I was doing my field 0:10:21.000 --> 0:10:23.599 work in the North Cooxus, I visited Czechnia. I was 0:10:23.640 --> 0:10:25.920 in Cambard Noble Karia, which is you know, a couple 0:10:25.960 --> 0:10:29.120 of republics over um it didn't experience war, but I 0:10:29.120 --> 0:10:32.680 remember at the time there were counter terrorists operations and 0:10:33.000 --> 0:10:35.960 carver Do No Bulkaria where the security services would kind 0:10:36.000 --> 0:10:38.680 of lock down whole neighborhoods and kind of storm impartment 0:10:38.679 --> 0:10:40.760 buildings to go after someone who had been you know, 0:10:40.800 --> 0:10:43.160 identified as a problem and just kind of, you know, 0:10:43.200 --> 0:10:45.920 neutralize that person. They were rarely detained, they were just 0:10:45.960 --> 0:10:49.520 kind of killed, no questions us. Then going to Chechnia 0:10:49.600 --> 0:10:53.480 from that kind of context, that stuff doesn't happen, just 0:10:53.559 --> 0:10:57.520 because the security apparatus is so strong and so intense 0:10:58.200 --> 0:11:01.720 that that kind of thing doesn't happen. At the same time, 0:11:01.720 --> 0:11:05.040 you feel that tension, that kind of fear. Um. So 0:11:05.080 --> 0:11:08.360 I think that's the main reason why, um, you're not 0:11:08.400 --> 0:11:21.360 seeing these sort of protests in Chechnya when we talk 0:11:21.440 --> 0:11:24.880 about like what is it reasonable to hope for here? 0:11:25.280 --> 0:11:26.920 I wonder if you have any thoughts on that from 0:11:27.000 --> 0:11:30.600 Dagastan like in in terms of resistance to both this 0:11:30.760 --> 0:11:34.560 kind of general conscription order and resistance in general to 0:11:34.640 --> 0:11:38.680 the to the increasing imperial aims of the Russian state. Yeah, 0:11:38.840 --> 0:11:41.360 I think it's revealing those tracks that I mentioned in 0:11:41.360 --> 0:11:44.160 the beginning about identity and then kind of this this 0:11:44.240 --> 0:11:48.480 region not feeling like a part of Russia. And I think, um, 0:11:48.840 --> 0:11:53.480 the other thing is that it it it's unprecedented in 0:11:53.520 --> 0:11:55.920 many ways just in terms of its messaging, and you 0:11:56.080 --> 0:11:59.320 protest movements in general are seemed to kind of when 0:11:59.360 --> 0:12:02.199 you participate it in a movement, UM, it's it's sort 0:12:02.240 --> 0:12:05.800 of transforming. On an individual level. You feel like you're 0:12:05.840 --> 0:12:08.920 part of something. You see all these other people on 0:12:08.960 --> 0:12:11.680 the street, who are you agreeing with you in a 0:12:11.760 --> 0:12:14.920 context that's so authoritarian where and you don't you know, 0:12:15.000 --> 0:12:17.960 have that freedom to speak out there's no free media. UM. 0:12:18.000 --> 0:12:22.920 In general. UM it's it's it's transformative. And I think 0:12:23.000 --> 0:12:26.560 that's probably for me, at least as a social movement scholar, 0:12:26.840 --> 0:12:29.240 the most interesting aspects. I mean, we can't predict, we 0:12:29.240 --> 0:12:31.120 don't know what's going to happen. There might be in 0:12:31.480 --> 0:12:34.720 a new wave of repression. UM, but it's it's revealing 0:12:34.720 --> 0:12:42.120 these cracks and UM kind of almost providing this proof 0:12:42.480 --> 0:12:46.520 of the the lie of this you know, unified Russian 0:12:46.559 --> 0:12:49.240 state that that is being kept together by a repression 0:12:49.240 --> 0:12:54.280 and propaganda. UM. I think the messaging also reflects a 0:12:54.480 --> 0:12:59.280 change in identity, in oppositional identity in the region. UM. 0:13:00.120 --> 0:13:05.240 Previously protests in the region were directed at the local leadership, 0:13:05.320 --> 0:13:08.400 so at the republican level, right, so these are usually 0:13:08.720 --> 0:13:12.240 co ethnics who are installed by Moscow. Not so much 0:13:12.280 --> 0:13:16.080 to govern, but more to manage UM and check and leader. 0:13:16.400 --> 0:13:19.719 Ransankado is an extreme case of this, and it was 0:13:19.760 --> 0:13:22.440 a practice common in Imperial Russia. Right, you install your 0:13:22.440 --> 0:13:25.240 own guy, but he's local, so it sits better with 0:13:25.280 --> 0:13:28.440 the population, even if they're only there to carry out 0:13:28.920 --> 0:13:33.199 policies that are decided and UM. So those protest movements 0:13:33.240 --> 0:13:38.840 were normally against the Republican authorities, um, their excesses, their corruption, 0:13:39.200 --> 0:13:43.120 um you know. And again the exception to that is philotism, 0:13:43.160 --> 0:13:46.599 which was targeting both Moscow and the local leadership. But 0:13:46.840 --> 0:13:51.600 here in this new wave of protest movement, the sentiment 0:13:51.640 --> 0:13:57.000 the grievances against Putin and that's totally now. And I 0:13:57.920 --> 0:13:59.960 one of the things that is kind of remarkable is 0:14:00.000 --> 0:14:02.679 as you've gotten in the wave of and these are 0:14:02.760 --> 0:14:05.120 not just in Dagistan, but Dagastan had a lot of 0:14:05.120 --> 0:14:09.000 the protest against this general mobilization order, you actually have 0:14:09.320 --> 0:14:12.600 what what looks to me and you're you're certainly certainly 0:14:12.600 --> 0:14:13.840 no more than I do. So tell me if you 0:14:13.840 --> 0:14:15.880 think my analysis, if this is wrong, but looks to 0:14:15.880 --> 0:14:18.840 me like the regime blinking a little bit. Because in 0:14:18.880 --> 0:14:21.600 the wake of the protests you had both Putin and 0:14:21.640 --> 0:14:23.480 a number of different local leaders come out and say 0:14:23.480 --> 0:14:25.920 we because one of the things that was happening as 0:14:25.960 --> 0:14:28.520 soon as the mobilization started, as you saw a lot 0:14:28.560 --> 0:14:31.960 of these people, including like doctors, healthcare workers, other kinds 0:14:31.960 --> 0:14:34.720 of professionals and industries that are generally protected from this 0:14:34.760 --> 0:14:37.560 sort of thing getting pulled in by state forces and 0:14:37.800 --> 0:14:41.800 effectively drafted on the spot along with protesters and um. 0:14:42.160 --> 0:14:45.080 The in the wake of the outcry against that, Putin 0:14:45.160 --> 0:14:48.160 himself and a number of other local leaders have come 0:14:48.200 --> 0:14:50.240 out and been like, this was a mistake. We're releasing 0:14:50.280 --> 0:14:52.920 a number of these people, these these certain certain you know, 0:14:53.280 --> 0:14:55.440 we're not supposed to be drafting people from these certain 0:14:55.440 --> 0:14:58.480 professions and whatnot. And to me that looked like, well, 0:14:58.520 --> 0:15:00.520 maybe that's a little bit of a blink, um, But 0:15:00.560 --> 0:15:04.280 I don't know if perhaps I'm being overly optimistic there No, 0:15:04.400 --> 0:15:08.520 I agree, um. And it speaks to the level of mobilization, 0:15:08.560 --> 0:15:13.600 that kind of unprecedented um um levels of mobilization on 0:15:13.640 --> 0:15:18.000 the street, and also speaks to the fact that you know, 0:15:18.040 --> 0:15:21.200 previously Moscow, I mean they didn't care as much when 0:15:21.200 --> 0:15:24.200 the protests were directed at the local authorities. I mean 0:15:24.200 --> 0:15:26.760 they did, but not like this, this is this is 0:15:26.800 --> 0:15:29.640 threatening UM. And I was listening to an interview of 0:15:29.760 --> 0:15:33.480 a protest organizer from Augustan. He's exiled, like he's kind 0:15:33.480 --> 0:15:35.040 of you know, in touch with the people on the 0:15:35.080 --> 0:15:37.800 ground and he and he was talking about how he 0:15:37.920 --> 0:15:43.960 felt that the reason mobilization orders have been UM commissioned 0:15:44.040 --> 0:15:49.280 kind of to the Republican regional authorities is on purpose 0:15:49.560 --> 0:15:54.360 so that grievances UM aren't directed towards Moscow, because it's 0:15:54.360 --> 0:15:57.400 the regional authorities deciding on who's being mobilized UM. And 0:15:57.400 --> 0:16:01.240 it's a kind of deflection of aim that he thought 0:16:01.320 --> 0:16:05.520 was by design. And the interviewer asked him a couple 0:16:05.560 --> 0:16:07.600 of other questions. He was saying, oh, you know, we're 0:16:07.640 --> 0:16:10.800 hearing reports about the police being really brutal UM. And 0:16:10.840 --> 0:16:14.760 again he was like, no, not really, or that's not 0:16:14.840 --> 0:16:16.840 the point, that's not the question to be asking. It's 0:16:16.840 --> 0:16:20.120 actually deflecting because again, the grievance is not to the 0:16:20.120 --> 0:16:22.760 local police, it's actually towards Moscow. Who is you know, 0:16:23.120 --> 0:16:26.920 the origin of this whole problem. And I think that's 0:16:27.000 --> 0:16:39.320 that's a threat. Do you have any kind of advice 0:16:39.360 --> 0:16:42.040 for people if they're looking as kind of things continue 0:16:42.080 --> 0:16:45.560 to develop in Dagistan, as there are more protests, which 0:16:45.560 --> 0:16:49.280 I'm sure there will be, are there actually like organizations 0:16:49.280 --> 0:16:51.800 over there that can be supported by people, um, including 0:16:51.800 --> 0:16:54.840 you mentioned independent media there. UM. I'm just wondering if 0:16:54.840 --> 0:16:56.760 you have any kind of particular advice for folks who 0:16:56.800 --> 0:16:59.400 might either want to learn more about the region what's 0:16:59.440 --> 0:17:02.000 going on, um, or who might want to try and 0:17:02.080 --> 0:17:08.040 help the people who are protesting right now. UM. Unfortunately, 0:17:08.080 --> 0:17:11.159 there's um not much for our siders to do a 0:17:11.200 --> 0:17:12.920 lot of the news, and I think it was kind 0:17:12.920 --> 0:17:16.359 of expecting that. An. Yeah, yeah, it's like it's kind 0:17:16.400 --> 0:17:19.240 of a denied context. So where I get the news 0:17:19.440 --> 0:17:23.160 is a couple of telegram channels that are only in Russian. UM, 0:17:23.240 --> 0:17:25.720 so that probably doesn't help your audience if they don't 0:17:25.760 --> 0:17:28.760 speak Russian. There's a couple of Twitter accounts that I 0:17:28.760 --> 0:17:32.320 would recommend people follow, you know, UM there's UM, I 0:17:32.359 --> 0:17:36.600 don't know, I can mention that or yeah please no, absolutely, 0:17:37.720 --> 0:17:40.200 let me quickly find the guide personally. When it comes 0:17:40.200 --> 0:17:42.480 to like where I'm able to get English language news 0:17:42.680 --> 0:17:46.160 about the region, MEDUSA is generally kind of like one 0:17:46.160 --> 0:17:48.119 of the places where I've gotten some MEDUSA is a 0:17:48.200 --> 0:17:52.280 Russian news site that's or news organization that's banned in Russia. 0:17:52.320 --> 0:17:54.600 In fact, if I'm not mistaken, a MEDUSA journalist just 0:17:54.640 --> 0:17:59.000 got arrested in Dagastan by the State Security Services. UM. 0:17:59.040 --> 0:18:01.440 But you can go to to Dousa dot io and 0:18:02.040 --> 0:18:06.720 that's one place where I've come across news that's English language. UM. 0:18:06.760 --> 0:18:09.119 It's not the most detailed coverage, but it's kind of 0:18:09.119 --> 0:18:11.080 hard to find that in English about stuff going on 0:18:11.080 --> 0:18:13.399 in Dagistan. It is, it is hard to find, and 0:18:13.440 --> 0:18:16.840 I would echo that sentiment of MEDUSA being a good 0:18:16.840 --> 0:18:20.760 source for that. UM. There's a researcher on Twitter named 0:18:20.800 --> 0:18:24.840 Harold Chambers. His handle is Chambers Harold eight, the number eight, 0:18:25.040 --> 0:18:28.320 and he is an analyst and he is posting kind 0:18:28.320 --> 0:18:31.000 of more detailed, you know, in the weeds, up to 0:18:31.200 --> 0:18:35.440 you know, up to date, day to day developments from 0:18:35.480 --> 0:18:38.920 from the region. UM. And is there anything like as 0:18:39.000 --> 0:18:42.439 as we I'm kind of closing out here, UM, that 0:18:42.480 --> 0:18:45.240 you wanted to particularly get into about what's happening over 0:18:45.280 --> 0:18:49.119 there about kind of, um, the development of social movements 0:18:49.119 --> 0:18:52.600 in Dagistan right now that you you find particularly fascinating 0:18:52.600 --> 0:18:55.639 that you'd like to kind of talk about to the audience. Yeah, 0:18:55.840 --> 0:18:58.679 I think, um, the context of the Russian war on 0:18:58.800 --> 0:19:01.280 terrorism in the North, because this praised a huge role 0:19:01.320 --> 0:19:04.959 here UM. And I mentioned, you know, the counter terrorists 0:19:04.960 --> 0:19:07.720 operations that that Marcia used to use in the region 0:19:07.800 --> 0:19:10.879 as a repression tool UM, so they didn't have to 0:19:10.920 --> 0:19:13.119 be seal office or kind of you know, seeing this 0:19:13.600 --> 0:19:16.720 extremists to be targeted and stuff like that, like secular 0:19:17.040 --> 0:19:20.760 Dukistani's and Chechens were absolutely targeted, and and that kind 0:19:20.800 --> 0:19:23.919 of in those UM in in those UM in that 0:19:24.000 --> 0:19:27.240 context of counter terrorism. And it's really the fact that 0:19:27.240 --> 0:19:30.959 your Dugist studies are really tired of the repression. People 0:19:31.840 --> 0:19:35.119 leave the Republic and move abroad UM because they've been 0:19:35.200 --> 0:19:37.800 labeled a terrorist and they don't want to die UM. 0:19:37.840 --> 0:19:40.639 And when their family send them money UM to support 0:19:40.680 --> 0:19:44.240 them abroad, they get um labeled as terrorists because they're helping, 0:19:44.400 --> 0:19:48.120 you know, support a terrorists. So it's it's why it's 0:19:48.160 --> 0:19:51.760 also why the movement is leaderless UM, because there's really 0:19:51.760 --> 0:19:55.320 no intelligencia or leaders left in the republic um anymore. 0:19:55.320 --> 0:19:58.840 Anyone who had any kind of critical standpoint UM has 0:19:58.880 --> 0:20:02.080 either been killed or exile, so we have to see 0:20:02.080 --> 0:20:04.119 the mobilization in Augusta is kind of you know, with 0:20:04.160 --> 0:20:09.600 that backdrop. People are tired of the repression. Um and 0:20:09.600 --> 0:20:12.879 and yeah, the protests are spontaneous, and the fact that 0:20:12.880 --> 0:20:17.760 it's horizontal is also unprecedented, and it obviously means that 0:20:17.840 --> 0:20:21.080 it's much harder to repress the movement and suppress it 0:20:21.119 --> 0:20:24.879 because there's no individuals to kind of target. That's interesting 0:20:24.920 --> 0:20:27.680 because that's obviously a global trend that we've seen in 0:20:28.040 --> 0:20:31.080 protest movements, not just against the Russian state, but around 0:20:31.119 --> 0:20:35.840 the world. Governments have gotten much better at not finding 0:20:35.960 --> 0:20:40.320 leaders in protest movements, compromising them, going after them, targeting them, 0:20:40.400 --> 0:20:43.800 arresting them. Um. It's and I think this has been 0:20:43.840 --> 0:20:46.080 a part of why all over the world you've seen 0:20:46.160 --> 0:20:51.159 so many more horizontal movements leading street protests against different 0:20:51.240 --> 0:20:54.119 kinds of oppression, because it's really the only thing that 0:20:54.200 --> 0:20:59.680 can't be compromised easily by the security forces. Yeah, especially 0:20:59.720 --> 0:21:04.800 in an authoritarian contexts. Yeah. Well, um, Karina, is there 0:21:04.840 --> 0:21:08.679 anything else you wanted to say before we close out? No, No, 0:21:08.840 --> 0:21:10.600 that's it all right. Well, why don't we talk a 0:21:10.640 --> 0:21:13.240 little bit about your plugs here? Because you have a 0:21:13.280 --> 0:21:16.879 podcast that you're about to be starting. Yeah, I'm starting 0:21:16.880 --> 0:21:21.120 a podcast. It is called Obscure ston Podcasts, where we'll 0:21:21.119 --> 0:21:25.560 talk about the bizarre and fucked up nature of the 0:21:25.560 --> 0:21:28.560 region of eur Asia. Um, but also more importantly how 0:21:28.560 --> 0:21:31.200 it got that way. Yeah, so that's what we're doing. 0:21:31.600 --> 0:21:34.600 I can think a few more topics, more important topics 0:21:34.600 --> 0:21:37.960 for people, particularly people just where I live. To understand, 0:21:38.040 --> 0:21:40.639 so many people have been affected in in You know, 0:21:40.680 --> 0:21:44.120 we're looking at the energy crisis hitting the UK and 0:21:44.119 --> 0:21:46.840 and to a slightly lesser extent, continental Europe. Right now, 0:21:46.880 --> 0:21:49.960 we're looking at rising food prices in the United States, 0:21:50.000 --> 0:21:53.320 all of it tied to this conflict, which people wouldn't 0:21:53.320 --> 0:21:56.240 have been surprised by if they'd been paying attention to 0:21:56.280 --> 0:22:00.320 Eurasian history and politics a little bit more. Um. So 0:22:00.480 --> 0:22:03.320 I I think that's a commendable effort and I'm excited 0:22:03.359 --> 0:22:06.400 to start listening. UM. Thank you so much. Yes, can 0:22:06.440 --> 0:22:09.680 I mentioned one last thing? So I'm I'm sitting in 0:22:09.800 --> 0:22:12.080 Armenia and speaking to you from Armenia. So, UM, I 0:22:12.119 --> 0:22:16.640 would just encourage your listeners to find out about what's happening. 0:22:16.720 --> 0:22:20.520 We were recently attacked bios preson and um, we have 0:22:20.600 --> 0:22:23.560 some four d Ande score kilometers that are currently occupied 0:22:23.560 --> 0:22:25.840 by us by Janni soldiers. So I would encourage people 0:22:25.840 --> 0:22:27.919 to learn about the conflict and kind of pay attention 0:22:27.920 --> 0:22:31.240 to what's happening here. Yeah. Absolutely, Um, we continue to 0:22:31.240 --> 0:22:35.080 be big advocates for folks paying attention to that. Um. 0:22:35.720 --> 0:22:40.240 And uh yeah, it's it's I don't know, you know, 0:22:40.560 --> 0:22:44.080 I had this brief period of like optimism when the 0:22:44.080 --> 0:22:47.080 White House started making statements and Pelosi visited that, like 0:22:47.800 --> 0:22:50.840 and we'll see maybe that. I know there's like there's 0:22:50.880 --> 0:22:54.200 a vote coming up right now in Congress to stop 0:22:54.240 --> 0:22:57.399 selling weapons to these aries, which would be at least 0:22:57.400 --> 0:23:00.760 a start. Um. But I mean, you know, it's the 0:23:01.400 --> 0:23:03.760 what's I think is necessary is for our media to 0:23:03.760 --> 0:23:06.359 have access to the kind of weapons that have been 0:23:06.400 --> 0:23:09.840 so successful at stopping for an aggression in other countries. 0:23:09.840 --> 0:23:15.280 Shall we say? Yeah, yeah, Well all right, Coriina, thank 0:23:15.320 --> 0:23:17.560 you so much for your time. That's gonna be our 0:23:17.560 --> 0:23:20.720 show for the day. Have a good one. Everybody keep 0:23:20.960 --> 0:23:27.680 paying attention to stuff it could happen here. As a 0:23:27.680 --> 0:23:30.560 production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool 0:23:30.640 --> 0:23:33.280 Zone Media, visit our website Cool zone media dot com 0:23:33.400 --> 0:23:35.160 or check us out on the I Heart Radio app, 0:23:35.160 --> 0:23:38.520 Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts, you can 0:23:38.560 --> 0:23:41.239 find sources for It could happen here, Updated monthly at 0:23:41.280 --> 0:23:44.520 cool zone media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.