1 00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:16,140 Speaker 1: Hi guys, this is Jen Fessler, and today on Killer 2 00:00:16,340 --> 00:00:20,750 Speaker 1: Thriller Documentary, we are talking about a doc that actually 3 00:00:20,790 --> 00:00:24,690 Speaker 1: exposed a deeply disturbing reality on college campuses across America. 4 00:00:25,230 --> 00:00:29,389 Speaker 1: So in 2015, The Hunting Ground, directed by Kirby Dick 5 00:00:29,490 --> 00:00:33,110 Speaker 1: and produced by Amy Ziering, brought national attention to campus 6 00:00:33,150 --> 00:00:36,310 Speaker 1: sexual assault. Following survivors who not only had to deal 7 00:00:36,350 --> 00:00:38,129 Speaker 1: with the trauma of what happened to them, but also 8 00:00:38,170 --> 00:00:41,700 Speaker 1: faced university's that often seemed more interested in protecting their 9 00:00:41,729 --> 00:00:46,830 Speaker 1: reputations than holding perpetrators accountable. So this film exposes really, 10 00:00:47,010 --> 00:00:52,970 Speaker 1: really troubling attitudes about consent, fraternity culture, powerful athletes, and 11 00:00:53,650 --> 00:00:56,530 Speaker 1: systems that really too often failed the very students they 12 00:00:56,570 --> 00:00:59,650 Speaker 1: were supposed to protect. And I am very excited to 13 00:00:59,690 --> 00:01:06,970 Speaker 1: say that joining me today is Emmy Award-winning producer Amy Ziering. Hi, Amy. Hi. Welcome. 14 00:01:07,150 --> 00:01:09,790 Speaker 1: Thank you again for joining us. And we're going to 15 00:01:09,810 --> 00:01:12,010 Speaker 1: talk about, yeah, we're going to talk about what you 16 00:01:12,030 --> 00:01:13,970 Speaker 1: uncovered while making the film and the stories that have, 17 00:01:14,510 --> 00:01:19,390 Speaker 1: you know, stayed with you. And almost most importantly, at 18 00:01:19,730 --> 00:01:22,770 Speaker 1: least to me, is whether anything has really changed in, 19 00:01:22,790 --> 00:01:26,890 Speaker 1: you know, the more than a decade since the film's release. 20 00:01:27,470 --> 00:01:30,270 Speaker 2: So I'll start with the good news first. Things have changed. 21 00:01:30,410 --> 00:01:32,869 Speaker 2: It might seem like they haven't, but they really, really, 22 00:01:32,950 --> 00:01:37,670 Speaker 2: really have. You know, just as one example, the Me 23 00:01:37,690 --> 00:01:40,410 Speaker 2: Too movement, I mean, I never imagined that would happen 24 00:01:40,430 --> 00:01:45,100 Speaker 2: in my lifetime. The response to the Epstein files, kind 25 00:01:45,140 --> 00:01:49,020 Speaker 2: of unprecedented. It might be hard for younger generations to recognize. 26 00:01:49,740 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 2: But both Me Too and I think Me Too set 27 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:55,540 Speaker 2: the groundwork for that kind of response to Epstein files, 28 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 2: which I don't think would have happened otherwise. You know, 29 00:01:57,900 --> 00:02:02,910 Speaker 2: the constant outrage about that that's been ongoing. So that's 30 00:02:02,950 --> 00:02:06,750 Speaker 2: very positive. Unfortunately, we're seeing, you know, with great progress, 31 00:02:06,790 --> 00:02:08,830 Speaker 2: there's great backlash, and we're kind of living in the 32 00:02:08,870 --> 00:02:12,150 Speaker 2: midst of a really, really horrific rollback of women's rights 33 00:02:12,190 --> 00:02:15,840 Speaker 2: across the board. So rape culture is still unfortunately alive 34 00:02:15,850 --> 00:02:17,580 Speaker 2: and well, but we have made strides. 35 00:02:18,300 --> 00:02:22,540 Speaker 1: Yeah. So when you say backlash, specifically, tell me a 36 00:02:22,540 --> 00:02:23,900 Speaker 1: little bit about what you're talking about, and then I 37 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:26,100 Speaker 1: want to, of course, jump into the film. Maybe you 38 00:02:26,180 --> 00:02:29,460 Speaker 1: are referring to things like what's going on at Cornell. 39 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:34,610 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. The Cornell 7 case is pretty indicative of 40 00:02:36,090 --> 00:02:41,010 Speaker 2: how sadly not far we've come. The response to it 41 00:02:41,350 --> 00:02:45,230 Speaker 2: on social media, the response to it by the administration, 42 00:02:45,250 --> 00:02:50,580 Speaker 2: the doxing of Jane Doe, the harassment and bullying of 43 00:02:50,660 --> 00:02:54,460 Speaker 2: Jane Doe and her family, and the attorney. I mean, 44 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:59,130 Speaker 2: it's not only unconscionable, it's heartbreaking, and it's you know, 45 00:02:59,450 --> 00:03:02,680 Speaker 2: we are better than that. And it's, yeah. So that's 46 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 2: the backlash part of it. 47 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:08,780 Speaker 1: Yeah. So I want to just sort of now jump in. 48 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:12,299 Speaker 1: And my first question is, I want to know what 49 00:03:12,340 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 1: was the moment that you realized that you had to 50 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:16,700 Speaker 1: make the hunting ground? I don't know what kind of 51 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:19,750 Speaker 1: experience you had on your college campus and if that 52 00:03:19,790 --> 00:03:22,270 Speaker 1: had anything to do with it, but was there one 53 00:03:22,310 --> 00:03:27,169 Speaker 1: particular story or experience that prompted you to make this film? 54 00:03:27,889 --> 00:03:33,830 Speaker 2: Okay, it's actually pretty interesting. So in 2008, maybe even 2006, 55 00:03:33,830 --> 00:03:36,830 Speaker 2: I was reading an article online, and it was about 56 00:03:36,850 --> 00:03:40,110 Speaker 2: a bunch of women who had been sexually assaulted while 57 00:03:40,170 --> 00:03:44,610 Speaker 2: serving in the U.S. military. And the crazy part about 58 00:03:44,650 --> 00:03:47,490 Speaker 2: the article wasn't that they were assaulted. It was that 59 00:03:47,590 --> 00:03:51,190 Speaker 2: when they went to try and report the crime, they 60 00:03:51,270 --> 00:03:54,650 Speaker 2: had no access to an impartial system of justice, meaning 61 00:03:54,910 --> 00:03:57,030 Speaker 2: they often had to report the crime to their commander 62 00:03:57,110 --> 00:04:00,340 Speaker 2: who was probably had a conflict of interest because he 63 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 2: might know the rapist. It was just, and they couldn't 64 00:04:03,940 --> 00:04:08,020 Speaker 2: go outside the chain of command. So that seemed crazy 65 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 2: to me. Like women in the 21st century couldn't, in 66 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 2: our military, if they had no access to a fair 67 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:20,690 Speaker 2: system of justice. So I called the reporter and I said, 68 00:04:20,700 --> 00:04:25,349 Speaker 2: you know, what on earth is this? How widespread is this? 69 00:04:26,010 --> 00:04:29,370 Speaker 2: And she said, Amy, it's so strange. I wasn't writing 70 00:04:29,430 --> 00:04:32,250 Speaker 2: an article about assault in the military. I knew nothing 71 00:04:32,310 --> 00:04:35,530 Speaker 2: about it. I was writing an article about how great 72 00:04:35,589 --> 00:04:38,600 Speaker 2: it's been 10 years. Our military is now fully integrated. 73 00:04:38,650 --> 00:04:40,900 Speaker 2: You know, women are, and I just wanted to hear 74 00:04:40,940 --> 00:04:43,060 Speaker 2: their stories. And she said, I called 20 women and 75 00:04:43,060 --> 00:04:46,460 Speaker 2: 12 said they'd been assaulted. She said, so I pivoted 76 00:04:46,700 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 2: and I started writing this article and I said, oh, okay, well, 77 00:04:50,020 --> 00:04:53,020 Speaker 2: I'm super interested. I'm, you know, has any film, you know, 78 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:55,930 Speaker 2: film companies contacted you? She said, no, nothing. It's silent. 79 00:04:57,310 --> 00:04:59,130 Speaker 2: So I hung up the phone with her, started doing 80 00:04:59,150 --> 00:05:01,510 Speaker 2: more research, but then I got greenlit on another project 81 00:05:01,550 --> 00:05:03,630 Speaker 2: for HBO. So I called her back and I said, Helen, 82 00:05:03,690 --> 00:05:05,930 Speaker 2: I'm so sorry. This is going to get picked up. 83 00:05:06,370 --> 00:05:08,979 Speaker 2: I'm onto another project. Two years later, finished that project 84 00:05:09,020 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 2: for HBO, call her back. No one was interested. The 85 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 2: story did not go wide. So we started doing our 86 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:20,490 Speaker 2: own research. And what was interesting about that, just again, 87 00:05:20,500 --> 00:05:25,599 Speaker 2: give listeners context about how far we've come. We pitched 88 00:05:25,620 --> 00:05:27,900 Speaker 2: and we saw not only was her story accurate, it 89 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:31,799 Speaker 2: was widespread, you know, across the country. It was an epidemic, 90 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 2: you know, of assaults in our military that were going 91 00:05:34,850 --> 00:05:40,370 Speaker 2: underreported and non-adjudicated, right? So it's kind of a, you know, 92 00:05:41,350 --> 00:05:47,770 Speaker 2: serial playground for predators, unfortunately. So I went to pitch 93 00:05:47,830 --> 00:05:50,450 Speaker 2: that then because we were kind of a well-known film team. 94 00:05:51,290 --> 00:05:54,669 Speaker 2: We couldn't get anyone interested. So this is now 2010. Why? 95 00:05:56,110 --> 00:05:59,010 Speaker 2: People said, we're not interested in women's stories. This is 96 00:05:59,050 --> 00:06:00,610 Speaker 2: in 2010. Come on. 97 00:06:00,610 --> 00:06:02,330 Speaker 1: We're not interested in women's stories? 98 00:06:02,589 --> 00:06:04,670 Speaker 2: We're not interested in stories about women who are raped. 99 00:06:04,830 --> 00:06:07,730 Speaker 2: And we're certainly not interested about women who are raped 100 00:06:07,770 --> 00:06:09,870 Speaker 2: in the military. That's a direct quote. And this was 101 00:06:09,950 --> 00:06:13,930 Speaker 2: from left media sources and right media sources. 102 00:06:14,370 --> 00:06:17,170 Speaker 1: That is crazy. How disheartening. Oh, my God. 103 00:06:17,820 --> 00:06:20,310 Speaker 2: So we just went ourselves without any money and just 104 00:06:20,350 --> 00:06:23,510 Speaker 2: went around the country and interviewed soldiers. And we ended 105 00:06:23,570 --> 00:06:27,230 Speaker 2: up making a film called The Invisible War, which played 106 00:06:27,270 --> 00:06:31,070 Speaker 2: at Sundance in 2012. And when we walked into the 107 00:06:31,190 --> 00:06:35,580 Speaker 2: first screening at Sundance, someone yelled to my publicist, good 108 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:38,140 Speaker 2: luck with that rape movie. I mean, that's how little 109 00:06:38,180 --> 00:06:43,070 Speaker 2: this issue was covered. I remember that. And, uh, And 110 00:06:43,089 --> 00:06:46,250 Speaker 2: the film opened like a bomb. I mean, and it 111 00:06:46,310 --> 00:06:49,849 Speaker 2: became the biggest film at Sundance that year. And so 112 00:06:50,470 --> 00:06:53,190 Speaker 2: I was like, oh, wow, what do we do now? Like, 113 00:06:53,550 --> 00:06:57,360 Speaker 2: you know, this is, people are really responding. People are upset. 114 00:06:57,390 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 2: People want to know what they can do. And so 115 00:07:00,580 --> 00:07:02,920 Speaker 2: we ended up, I ended up running an impact campaign 116 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:08,359 Speaker 2: that was really successful. Make a long story short, we 117 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:14,280 Speaker 2: changed 30, we passed 35 pieces of legislation and The Pentagon, 118 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 2: we got all the, we got all the joint chiefs 119 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 2: to see it and changing military policy. So that, but 120 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:22,730 Speaker 2: why am I telling you all this? Because as part 121 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:25,790 Speaker 2: of that outreach campaign, we did screenings all around the 122 00:07:25,810 --> 00:07:29,970 Speaker 2: country in colleges, right? Just like you. And then my mail, 123 00:07:30,090 --> 00:07:32,690 Speaker 2: I started getting mail in my inbox. Dear Ms. Ziering, 124 00:07:33,230 --> 00:07:34,850 Speaker 2: you don't need to go to the military. Just come 125 00:07:34,950 --> 00:07:37,810 Speaker 2: to Bowdoin. Just come to see me at Dartmouth. Just 126 00:07:37,850 --> 00:07:41,060 Speaker 2: come talk to me at Harvard. And I almost thought, like, 127 00:07:41,260 --> 00:07:44,700 Speaker 2: are these kids all talking to each other? Like, I swear, Jennifer, 128 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:48,100 Speaker 2: it was so weird. Do you know what I mean? Yes. What? 129 00:07:48,220 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 2: Is this some campaign? So that's how the hunting ground 130 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 2: came about. It was really from students. Was it? 131 00:07:54,340 --> 00:07:56,990 Speaker 1: I'm guessing it wasn't. I'm guessing it was literally individuals. 132 00:07:57,380 --> 00:08:00,050 Speaker 2: It was literally individuals. There was no organized campaign. I 133 00:08:00,110 --> 00:08:02,330 Speaker 2: really thought it was. They were from all different parts 134 00:08:02,350 --> 00:08:05,930 Speaker 2: of the country. They were men and women. We saw 135 00:08:05,990 --> 00:08:08,270 Speaker 2: the invisible war. Please come to see what's going on 136 00:08:08,290 --> 00:08:11,340 Speaker 2: on this campus. And so that's, that's what happens. So 137 00:08:11,380 --> 00:08:14,220 Speaker 2: that's why we ended up making the hunting ground. 138 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:18,190 Speaker 1: So you started getting these emails. Had you any idea though, 139 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:22,290 Speaker 1: at that point, how widespread the problem was? And I have, 140 00:08:22,310 --> 00:08:26,330 Speaker 1: so that's the first part. So also it was interesting 141 00:08:26,350 --> 00:08:28,550 Speaker 1: to me. And I don't know if, if I don't, 142 00:08:28,990 --> 00:08:30,470 Speaker 1: I don't think that this is the case. There was 143 00:08:30,490 --> 00:08:36,350 Speaker 1: a lot of concentration on very academic colleges, also colleges 144 00:08:36,390 --> 00:08:40,390 Speaker 1: that are very, uh, sports oriented. So in other words, 145 00:08:40,410 --> 00:08:43,030 Speaker 1: like I didn't see a lot of community colleges or 146 00:08:43,050 --> 00:08:48,150 Speaker 1: a lot of unknown colleges. And I'm wondering if, I 147 00:08:48,170 --> 00:08:51,270 Speaker 1: don't know, I'm, I'm just kind of wondering like how 148 00:08:51,870 --> 00:08:55,980 Speaker 1: that happened. And I, is it because in part, those 149 00:08:56,010 --> 00:09:00,179 Speaker 1: are the colleges with the reputations that, that they don't 150 00:09:00,220 --> 00:09:03,679 Speaker 1: want sullied? Do you think that that the sort of 151 00:09:04,370 --> 00:09:08,189 Speaker 1: the less that administrators listen, potentially bigger the colleges? I 152 00:09:08,230 --> 00:09:10,200 Speaker 1: don't know. That just was, I was just wondering that. 153 00:09:10,980 --> 00:09:13,560 Speaker 2: Well, that's a great question. I can't, you know, it's 154 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:15,780 Speaker 2: been a while. I'd have to remember. Typically what we 155 00:09:15,820 --> 00:09:18,580 Speaker 2: tried to do was get, have a good cross section 156 00:09:18,620 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 2: of colleges. And I don't think we, I don't think 157 00:09:21,940 --> 00:09:25,070 Speaker 2: we went to the community college level, but in terms of, 158 00:09:25,900 --> 00:09:29,170 Speaker 2: I did think we had some state schools represented some IVs. 159 00:09:29,309 --> 00:09:30,569 Speaker 1: Oh yeah. 160 00:09:30,890 --> 00:09:31,410 Speaker 2: Yeah. 161 00:09:31,450 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 1: It was a lot of big schools whose names are, 162 00:09:33,740 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 1: I recognize for the most part, which got me thinking, 163 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:45,220 Speaker 1: these are schools where there's a lot of money pumped in. 164 00:09:45,500 --> 00:09:50,390 Speaker 1: These are big schools with big reputations and I don't know, 165 00:09:50,450 --> 00:09:52,990 Speaker 1: big donors. But anyway, I was just wondering about that. 166 00:09:53,190 --> 00:09:56,709 Speaker 2: A little bit. I don't honestly, I mean, it's a 167 00:09:56,750 --> 00:09:59,949 Speaker 2: Venn diagram of things that make you converge on one. 168 00:10:00,100 --> 00:10:05,020 Speaker 2: You know, we interviewed over 200 survivors from all different schools. 169 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:07,780 Speaker 2: And then it narrows down to who has a story 170 00:10:07,850 --> 00:10:11,530 Speaker 2: that we can defend in court, you know, incontrovertible evidence, 171 00:10:11,870 --> 00:10:14,290 Speaker 2: who's willing to be on camera. You know, so by 172 00:10:14,330 --> 00:10:17,130 Speaker 2: the time that sorts out, you kind of land with 173 00:10:17,510 --> 00:10:17,950 Speaker 2: your subject. 174 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I don't mean to imply that this is 175 00:10:20,020 --> 00:10:24,079 Speaker 1: not happening on smaller college campuses. I don't mean to 176 00:10:24,100 --> 00:10:27,060 Speaker 1: imply that at all. More that in terms of the 177 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:32,350 Speaker 1: administration on big campuses, maybe there's a feeling that there's 178 00:10:32,380 --> 00:10:36,209 Speaker 1: more to lose. But anyway, I don't know. It was 179 00:10:36,230 --> 00:10:39,010 Speaker 1: just something that occurred to me. So there's this one 180 00:10:39,050 --> 00:10:42,670 Speaker 1: line in the documentary that stood out. I'm positive not 181 00:10:42,750 --> 00:10:45,490 Speaker 1: only to me, but it's the people you do know 182 00:10:45,710 --> 00:10:50,030 Speaker 1: you should be worried about. Why was it important for 183 00:10:50,070 --> 00:10:56,089 Speaker 1: you to sort of address that sexual assault is usually 184 00:10:56,130 --> 00:10:57,250 Speaker 1: not committed by strangers? 185 00:10:58,350 --> 00:11:00,790 Speaker 2: No, it's not. And I'm really glad you said that. 186 00:11:00,850 --> 00:11:04,940 Speaker 2: And that's been a really damaging myth that our culture 187 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:09,620 Speaker 2: has had for decades, that it's stranger danger, that it's 188 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:11,760 Speaker 2: someone you don't know. You have to have a blue 189 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 2: light on campus. 190 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:15,910 Speaker 1: Oh, my gosh. I went, yeah, I went. it's funny 191 00:11:15,929 --> 00:11:17,910 Speaker 1: because I've spoken about that. We've done some interviews in 192 00:11:18,350 --> 00:11:22,300 Speaker 1: terms of, of the Cornell seven. And, and I just, 193 00:11:23,660 --> 00:11:25,699 Speaker 1: for whatever reason that it came up, I toured a 194 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:28,820 Speaker 1: lot of college campuses with my kids a lot as, 195 00:11:29,540 --> 00:11:31,880 Speaker 1: you know, a lot of parents have the blue light, 196 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:35,870 Speaker 1: the blue light, the blue light. It's interesting. It's such a, 197 00:11:37,510 --> 00:11:42,550 Speaker 1: it's supposed to, I guess, bring some kind of comfort 198 00:11:42,590 --> 00:11:45,370 Speaker 1: that if, but it's, I keep thinking about it specifically 199 00:11:45,390 --> 00:11:48,949 Speaker 1: with your film because blue light doesn't help when it's 200 00:11:50,030 --> 00:11:53,530 Speaker 1: inside the campus, when it's students that know each other. 201 00:11:54,230 --> 00:11:57,609 Speaker 2: No, it's really, yeah, it's really performative and highly ineffectual. 202 00:11:57,950 --> 00:12:00,900 Speaker 2: I mean, and I'm glad you raised that point. And 203 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:02,980 Speaker 2: I do want to say to anyone listening that, and 204 00:12:03,420 --> 00:12:06,179 Speaker 2: thank you for watching the film, that the most important 205 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:08,840 Speaker 2: thing they could do for their children's safety and for 206 00:12:08,860 --> 00:12:12,250 Speaker 2: their own knowledge of these crimes is to watch The 207 00:12:12,290 --> 00:12:14,429 Speaker 2: Hunting Ground. I mean, I really, and I'll say it 208 00:12:14,470 --> 00:12:18,069 Speaker 2: also at the end, but it did come out in 2015, 209 00:12:18,070 --> 00:12:21,710 Speaker 2: but it's still as relevant as ever. And to this day, 210 00:12:22,710 --> 00:12:25,770 Speaker 2: parents come up to me and say it saved my 211 00:12:25,809 --> 00:12:26,569 Speaker 2: daughter's life. 212 00:12:27,790 --> 00:12:30,490 Speaker 1: Amy, I really wish I had seen it before my 213 00:12:30,530 --> 00:12:34,790 Speaker 1: daughter went to college. So, and, you know, I think 214 00:12:34,950 --> 00:12:39,569 Speaker 1: I was thinking a lot about, I don't believe that 215 00:12:39,790 --> 00:12:43,720 Speaker 1: my daughter, anything, that she was the victim of assault. 216 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 1: But I think about, you know, not all the girls 217 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:49,300 Speaker 1: are going to tell even their parents, right? They just 218 00:12:49,340 --> 00:12:54,540 Speaker 1: carry it around maybe for a lifetime. And as a mom, 219 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:57,689 Speaker 1: you know, watching some of the parents that you interviewed, 220 00:12:58,890 --> 00:13:03,810 Speaker 1: just how sick to my stomach that idea makes me. 221 00:13:03,850 --> 00:13:04,890 Speaker 1: Just the idea of it, right? 222 00:13:05,900 --> 00:13:09,330 Speaker 2: Yeah, no. And the film gives people information you just 223 00:13:09,350 --> 00:13:13,010 Speaker 2: can't get anywhere else. And it really has a grasp 224 00:13:13,070 --> 00:13:15,570 Speaker 2: and a researched understanding of this issue that isn't out 225 00:13:15,610 --> 00:13:18,429 Speaker 2: there in the culture at large and that kids going 226 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:20,739 Speaker 2: to school really need to know and parents need to know. 227 00:13:20,860 --> 00:13:23,660 Speaker 2: So yeah, I'm glad you said that. And I do 228 00:13:23,700 --> 00:13:25,839 Speaker 2: want to go back to your point about the nature 229 00:13:25,860 --> 00:13:30,110 Speaker 2: of these crimes. It more often than not, 99% of 230 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:33,570 Speaker 2: the time, it is someone you know. And we show 231 00:13:33,630 --> 00:13:36,700 Speaker 2: in the film the different ways that that person grooms 232 00:13:36,740 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 2: you for these crimes, you know, and uses alcohol as 233 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:42,890 Speaker 2: a weapon and isolates you. And so that's why it's 234 00:13:42,929 --> 00:13:45,410 Speaker 2: important for kids to see this. And it particularly happens 235 00:13:45,470 --> 00:13:48,630 Speaker 2: in environments like fraternities and sports, which we also go into, 236 00:13:49,090 --> 00:13:51,970 Speaker 2: explain why in the film, where the areas are even 237 00:13:52,370 --> 00:13:56,790 Speaker 2: more likely to harbor these kind of, you know, to 238 00:13:56,840 --> 00:14:01,300 Speaker 2: provide perfect storm conditions for these crimes to proliferate. So, yeah. 239 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:06,230 Speaker 1: Yeah. So, I was also thinking about if I had 240 00:14:06,290 --> 00:14:09,820 Speaker 1: shown the film to my daughter and she would have 241 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:14,219 Speaker 1: been certainly more aware, I think hyper aware of, you know, 242 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 1: what possibilities there were in certain situations. Do you have 243 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 1: specific girls that take, and actually some boys, right, that 244 00:14:24,340 --> 00:14:27,890 Speaker 1: can take away from this film? What would you suggest 245 00:14:27,930 --> 00:14:30,270 Speaker 1: is the most important thing in terms of protecting themselves? 246 00:14:30,950 --> 00:14:34,580 Speaker 2: Have a buddy. You're going to any parties. Or walking anywhere, 247 00:14:34,780 --> 00:14:38,870 Speaker 2: walk with a buddy, always know, and that person's checking 248 00:14:38,930 --> 00:14:41,730 Speaker 2: in on you to make sure you're okay. Never, ever, ever, 249 00:14:41,810 --> 00:14:45,510 Speaker 2: men and women, leave your drink unattended. Never, ever, ever 250 00:14:45,570 --> 00:14:48,270 Speaker 2: take a drink where you don't exactly know what's in it. 251 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 2: I cannot tell you how common it is now to 252 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:53,400 Speaker 2: spike drinks with substances the FBI can't even figure out 253 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:57,280 Speaker 2: what it's spiked with because the tests are not. the 254 00:14:57,300 --> 00:14:59,460 Speaker 2: drug gets ahead of the testing that they're able to do. 255 00:14:59,540 --> 00:15:01,700 Speaker 2: So sometimes when they can't find it, it's not that 256 00:15:01,740 --> 00:15:03,980 Speaker 2: you weren't drugged because these women and men will say, 257 00:15:04,220 --> 00:15:07,100 Speaker 2: I know, I know what happens after one drink. This 258 00:15:07,140 --> 00:15:08,640 Speaker 2: is not what happens to me after one drink. 259 00:15:09,060 --> 00:15:10,880 Speaker 1: Yeah. That, well, I forget her name, but the, that 260 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 1: the girl who said she got into, I guess maybe 261 00:15:14,700 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 1: it was a cab and she was, she was positive 262 00:15:19,420 --> 00:15:23,750 Speaker 1: because she was so completely out of it and she 263 00:15:23,780 --> 00:15:25,930 Speaker 1: had not had that much to drink and, you know, 264 00:15:25,950 --> 00:15:29,110 Speaker 1: my daughter now is in her early twenties. And I 265 00:15:29,390 --> 00:15:32,690 Speaker 1: think it's an important movie for, for girls to watch 266 00:15:32,890 --> 00:15:36,030 Speaker 1: even after they graduate college, because she lives in New 267 00:15:36,070 --> 00:15:40,910 Speaker 1: York city and there is still the feel kids holding 268 00:15:41,010 --> 00:15:45,130 Speaker 1: onto the college experience. And I don't know. I mean, 269 00:15:45,170 --> 00:15:48,850 Speaker 1: I am maybe ad nauseum and maybe she would tell 270 00:15:48,870 --> 00:15:53,240 Speaker 1: you to a fault. I am a helicoptering and I, 271 00:15:53,690 --> 00:15:56,590 Speaker 1: you know, watching her location and where are you and 272 00:15:57,370 --> 00:16:00,070 Speaker 1: are you drinking and who are you with? Again, she's not, 273 00:16:00,650 --> 00:16:02,750 Speaker 1: she's sort of mid twenties, she's 24 years old. And 274 00:16:02,770 --> 00:16:04,620 Speaker 1: at some point I'm going to have to trust her judgment. 275 00:16:05,140 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 1: But I think the movie is, you know, important after 276 00:16:09,580 --> 00:16:12,680 Speaker 1: college as well. I think it has, there's so much 277 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:15,050 Speaker 1: to benefit from young women watching it. 278 00:16:15,060 --> 00:16:18,570 Speaker 2: A hundred percent. It's, it happens in bars as well. 279 00:16:18,610 --> 00:16:21,160 Speaker 2: You're very right. And it's very good that you pointed 280 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:23,860 Speaker 2: that out, actually. It's not just a college thing. So 281 00:16:25,140 --> 00:16:28,340 Speaker 2: you should also, even in college, certainly keep an eye 282 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:31,830 Speaker 2: on your drink. But in any other situations, everyone should 283 00:16:31,870 --> 00:16:34,430 Speaker 2: know that as well. In bars, don't put your drink 284 00:16:34,450 --> 00:16:35,990 Speaker 2: down on the counter and leave it for a minute. 285 00:16:37,570 --> 00:16:39,890 Speaker 2: And make sure you're the only one in control of 286 00:16:39,990 --> 00:16:42,430 Speaker 2: it and you see what the bartender's pouring into it. 287 00:16:56,650 --> 00:17:00,410 Speaker 1: I want to talk about frat culture. And listen, we 288 00:17:00,430 --> 00:17:04,230 Speaker 1: are in a moment here in time where Cornell 7 289 00:17:04,230 --> 00:17:06,350 Speaker 1: is going on. And so there's a lot of talk 290 00:17:06,570 --> 00:17:10,010 Speaker 1: about frats. I have another podcast that I do. It's 291 00:17:10,050 --> 00:17:14,129 Speaker 1: called Dirty Rush. And it's actually about sororities and Greek life. 292 00:17:14,930 --> 00:17:19,629 Speaker 1: And I was in a sorority in college. And it's 293 00:17:19,670 --> 00:17:22,230 Speaker 1: about all of the joy that comes with being in 294 00:17:22,250 --> 00:17:24,730 Speaker 1: a sorority. But it's also about the realities of it. 295 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:29,199 Speaker 1: But we've been really focused on talking about the Cornell 296 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:34,409 Speaker 1: 7 and frat culture. And it's funny because I'm, you know, 297 00:17:34,430 --> 00:17:40,209 Speaker 1: I don't know. I think about frat culture and is 298 00:17:40,270 --> 00:17:43,730 Speaker 1: it so dangerous and what do we do with this, right? 299 00:17:44,170 --> 00:17:48,350 Speaker 1: And is it more likely that boys in frats, I 300 00:17:48,369 --> 00:17:50,710 Speaker 1: don't know what the percentages are, but are going to 301 00:17:50,850 --> 00:17:51,490 Speaker 1: commit assault? 302 00:17:53,130 --> 00:17:58,389 Speaker 2: Well, there's definitely a higher... Frat culture has a higher 303 00:17:59,030 --> 00:18:03,300 Speaker 2: propensity for misogyny because it's a social bonding thing, right? 304 00:18:03,420 --> 00:18:05,620 Speaker 2: Men prove they're not. 305 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:06,340 Speaker 1: I know. 306 00:18:06,580 --> 00:18:09,560 Speaker 2: They bond over women being their conquest. It's just a 307 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 2: whole weird thing. So frat culture is toxic in many ways. 308 00:18:14,340 --> 00:18:16,650 Speaker 2: It's wonderful in others. And it used to be that 309 00:18:16,690 --> 00:18:18,890 Speaker 2: there were den mothers living with these men. 310 00:18:19,530 --> 00:18:21,110 Speaker 1: Right. Yeah, my day there was, right. 311 00:18:21,510 --> 00:18:24,030 Speaker 2: They should not be on their own, period, end of sentence. 312 00:18:24,230 --> 00:18:30,130 Speaker 2: Every study after study says this. And so they're not 313 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:33,200 Speaker 2: able to, and they're very susceptible because the kind of 314 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:35,900 Speaker 2: person that joins a fraternity is the kind of person 315 00:18:35,940 --> 00:18:38,919 Speaker 2: that wants to be with a pack and wants to 316 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:42,720 Speaker 2: have a leader. There's a certain, right? You're more likely 317 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:44,750 Speaker 2: to want to bond that way and follow the leader. 318 00:18:44,770 --> 00:18:48,170 Speaker 2: You're not necessarily an iconoclast. You're not necessarily a maverick. 319 00:18:49,690 --> 00:18:52,290 Speaker 2: So there's a lot of group think that goes on. So, 320 00:18:53,670 --> 00:18:56,250 Speaker 2: That's a problem. And so that's why, yes, there's a 321 00:18:56,290 --> 00:19:02,890 Speaker 2: higher incident of sexual assault in fraternities and in sports enclaves. 322 00:19:03,050 --> 00:19:05,470 Speaker 2: But that doesn't mean that most men are rapists. Most 323 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:06,060 Speaker 2: men are not. 324 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:06,840 Speaker 1: Of course not. 325 00:19:07,260 --> 00:19:10,280 Speaker 2: Only a small percentage of men are, but they can 326 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:17,200 Speaker 2: embed themselves in fraternities, sports, campuses, military bases. And if 327 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:21,439 Speaker 2: there's no method to fairly you know, prosecute them and 328 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:24,960 Speaker 2: adjudicate these crimes, they can keep committing these crimes at 329 00:19:25,020 --> 00:19:25,869 Speaker 2: a very, very high rate. 330 00:19:26,310 --> 00:19:31,350 Speaker 1: I thought that was definitely interesting that the repeated offense 331 00:19:31,910 --> 00:19:38,050 Speaker 1: and that somebody who commits it once and also just having, 332 00:19:38,690 --> 00:19:42,230 Speaker 1: finding out that there was so much repeated crime by, 333 00:19:43,050 --> 00:19:46,609 Speaker 1: let's say, one boy that was reported and that was ignored, right? 334 00:19:46,690 --> 00:19:51,060 Speaker 1: That's just crazy. But That's like. the likely scenario is 335 00:19:51,100 --> 00:19:55,120 Speaker 1: that it's a small group of boys, men, who repeat 336 00:19:55,140 --> 00:19:55,480 Speaker 1: the crime. 337 00:19:56,210 --> 00:19:58,830 Speaker 2: And they weaponize alcohol, they isolate the woman. And then 338 00:19:58,850 --> 00:20:00,770 Speaker 2: what happens in fraternities and what we saw with the 339 00:20:00,810 --> 00:20:05,190 Speaker 2: Cornell 7 is they then, and because the fraternity has 340 00:20:05,230 --> 00:20:09,420 Speaker 2: had this culture, which has habituated that people to sort 341 00:20:09,500 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 2: of objectify women and not realize that that's not a 342 00:20:12,340 --> 00:20:13,980 Speaker 2: cool thing to do, right? That's just kind of in 343 00:20:14,020 --> 00:20:16,939 Speaker 2: the ether. Then if a situation like that arises and 344 00:20:16,980 --> 00:20:20,480 Speaker 2: a text thread goes out like that, these guys wouldn't 345 00:20:20,540 --> 00:20:22,540 Speaker 2: do this on their own, but with a little bit 346 00:20:22,580 --> 00:20:24,740 Speaker 2: of a push. Does that make sense? 347 00:20:25,619 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, it makes sense to me. I was also thinking 348 00:20:28,820 --> 00:20:31,700 Speaker 1: that you talk about the 50 frat boys that got 349 00:20:31,740 --> 00:20:36,240 Speaker 1: this text, right? And that no one immediately went to police. 350 00:20:36,300 --> 00:20:40,280 Speaker 1: I'm picturing boys, they just get in, right? They, they're 351 00:20:40,300 --> 00:20:43,580 Speaker 1: just initiated and they want, call it a pack, call it, 352 00:20:43,609 --> 00:20:46,209 Speaker 1: they are trying to make friends and have a good 353 00:20:46,230 --> 00:20:50,770 Speaker 1: time at college. And I just, I don't know. I 354 00:20:51,010 --> 00:20:53,649 Speaker 1: hope that it wouldn't take a very special boy. Well, 355 00:20:53,670 --> 00:20:56,460 Speaker 1: maybe it would to actually take a look at that 356 00:20:56,540 --> 00:21:00,440 Speaker 1: because I think that I picture that most of these kids, 357 00:21:00,500 --> 00:21:03,220 Speaker 1: most of these boys are not bad boys, not bad men, 358 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:08,369 Speaker 1: but just sort of it turned blind eye. They had 359 00:21:08,380 --> 00:21:10,370 Speaker 1: just gotten in. It was just too much for them 360 00:21:10,380 --> 00:21:12,310 Speaker 1: to handle, right? And to take on. 361 00:21:13,290 --> 00:21:15,330 Speaker 2: Yeah, you raise a great point. And when you asked 362 00:21:15,350 --> 00:21:18,889 Speaker 2: me earlier what people can do, men can get educated. 363 00:21:18,910 --> 00:21:24,350 Speaker 2: There's bystander intervention programs work. So I don't think it's 364 00:21:24,390 --> 00:21:28,870 Speaker 2: a problem. These men aren't bad. They aren't educated. They 365 00:21:28,950 --> 00:21:35,190 Speaker 2: aren't educated into understanding how rape works. how they can 366 00:21:35,390 --> 00:21:39,070 Speaker 2: intervene in a safe way, right? It's also in our 367 00:21:39,130 --> 00:21:43,869 Speaker 2: culture that men shouldn't block anyone else's sexual activity, so 368 00:21:43,890 --> 00:21:47,369 Speaker 2: they don't feel comfortable doing that. But bystander intervention programs 369 00:21:47,410 --> 00:21:51,570 Speaker 2: give them the language and the authority to sort of understand, 370 00:21:51,609 --> 00:21:54,750 Speaker 2: to recognize a situation that is not consensual and not cool, 371 00:21:55,190 --> 00:21:58,860 Speaker 2: to give them the language to intervene and to you know, 372 00:21:58,940 --> 00:22:02,240 Speaker 2: do that. And it's interesting. There was a very famous case. 373 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:04,360 Speaker 2: I don't know if you remember Chantel Miller. She wrote 374 00:22:04,380 --> 00:22:06,869 Speaker 2: a beautiful book. She's the woman that was assaulted by 375 00:22:06,900 --> 00:22:07,969 Speaker 2: the Stanford swimmer. 376 00:22:07,990 --> 00:22:11,810 Speaker 1: I have a vague memory of it. Yeah. 377 00:22:12,290 --> 00:22:15,550 Speaker 2: Oh my God. Her, her, anyone listening, if you just 378 00:22:15,650 --> 00:22:18,010 Speaker 2: read what she, the reason she wrote it, the reason 379 00:22:18,109 --> 00:22:20,770 Speaker 2: her case became big was because she gave this speech 380 00:22:20,850 --> 00:22:26,260 Speaker 2: to the judge that was heartbreaking and poetic and just incredible. 381 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:30,010 Speaker 2: But anyways, What happened with Chantal was she's a Stanford student. 382 00:22:31,030 --> 00:22:35,470 Speaker 2: She's assaulted. She's being assaulted. And two graduate students rode 383 00:22:35,510 --> 00:22:39,070 Speaker 2: by on their bicycles. And they looked at her and 384 00:22:39,090 --> 00:22:44,879 Speaker 2: they had taken a bystander intervention class. And because of 385 00:22:44,910 --> 00:22:46,980 Speaker 2: that class, they said, they looked at her, they looked 386 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:49,419 Speaker 2: at him and they said, hey, is everything okay? And 387 00:22:49,460 --> 00:22:52,439 Speaker 2: he said, we're good. We're good. And she didn't say anything. 388 00:22:53,980 --> 00:22:56,090 Speaker 2: And so they, And they looked again. They said, are 389 00:22:56,109 --> 00:23:00,169 Speaker 2: you sure everything's okay? And he says, we're fine. And 390 00:23:00,350 --> 00:23:03,750 Speaker 2: she didn't respond. And the class told them that's what 391 00:23:03,770 --> 00:23:06,470 Speaker 2: they should do, that they should ask, ask twice. And 392 00:23:06,490 --> 00:23:08,310 Speaker 2: then they got off their bikes. And the second they 393 00:23:08,350 --> 00:23:11,619 Speaker 2: got off, he ran off. So basically it was, and 394 00:23:11,650 --> 00:23:13,800 Speaker 2: they said they never, ever would have thought of that. 395 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:15,860 Speaker 2: They never would have, they just kept driving. 396 00:23:15,980 --> 00:23:18,440 Speaker 1: I'm so glad the story went this way. 397 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:20,840 Speaker 2: But that's what I'm saying. They took the class. So 398 00:23:20,940 --> 00:23:26,320 Speaker 2: I think if we educate these boys, I'm very, very hopeful. 399 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:28,629 Speaker 2: In fact, when we had our big impact campaign for 400 00:23:28,650 --> 00:23:30,649 Speaker 2: the hunting ground, I do remember we showed it at 401 00:23:30,690 --> 00:23:33,429 Speaker 2: some huge school in the South. I don't remember. It 402 00:23:33,450 --> 00:23:37,170 Speaker 2: was packed and two lines of microphones. And these three 403 00:23:37,510 --> 00:23:39,790 Speaker 2: boys came up to the microphone and they said, Amy, 404 00:23:39,930 --> 00:23:42,570 Speaker 2: before we saw your film, we thought women lied. We 405 00:23:42,630 --> 00:23:45,220 Speaker 2: are horrified. We are in a fraternity. We are all in. 406 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:47,959 Speaker 2: What do we do? So, I mean, it really does. 407 00:23:49,140 --> 00:23:51,220 Speaker 2: They're moved if they're educated. Right. 408 00:23:52,500 --> 00:23:54,109 Speaker 1: I don't know if you have kids or not. I'm 409 00:23:54,130 --> 00:23:57,630 Speaker 1: not even necessarily asking, but what would you tell mothers 410 00:23:57,820 --> 00:24:01,180 Speaker 1: of boys that do want to go into a frat? 411 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:02,740 Speaker 1: I mean, would you discourage that? 412 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:05,859 Speaker 2: No. I mean, there's a lot of good things. I 413 00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:10,080 Speaker 2: would be worried, but I would educate them. I'd make 414 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:12,910 Speaker 2: them watch this movie. I'd have frank discussions with them 415 00:24:13,109 --> 00:24:17,150 Speaker 2: about respecting women, not doing things that make them feel uncomfortable. 416 00:24:17,810 --> 00:24:19,950 Speaker 2: I'd make sure they had the character and fiber to 417 00:24:19,970 --> 00:24:23,580 Speaker 2: be To thrive in that environment and not have it 418 00:24:23,820 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 2: exploit their weaknesses. 419 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:28,929 Speaker 1: I was, as I don't, can't imagine anybody watching it 420 00:24:29,010 --> 00:24:31,169 Speaker 1: wasn't moved by the courage of these, of these women, 421 00:24:31,650 --> 00:24:35,530 Speaker 1: young women. I wonder if, was it hard to get 422 00:24:35,570 --> 00:24:39,730 Speaker 1: them to actually speak on camera? And I don't know, 423 00:24:39,750 --> 00:24:42,390 Speaker 1: you know, I'm wondering about if they were worried about 424 00:24:43,090 --> 00:24:46,070 Speaker 1: their own safety. You know, it's a crazy world right 425 00:24:46,109 --> 00:24:48,100 Speaker 1: now with social media, although back when was this made? 426 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:49,899 Speaker 1: Oh no. Yeah. We had social media. 427 00:24:50,220 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 428 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:56,959 Speaker 1: Yeah. But I'm wondering like they were already courageous and 429 00:24:57,140 --> 00:25:00,510 Speaker 1: you had so many young women who got on camera. 430 00:25:01,510 --> 00:25:04,170 Speaker 1: I'm wondering how you felt about that, how they felt 431 00:25:04,210 --> 00:25:05,690 Speaker 1: about that. Were there some nerves involved? 432 00:25:06,150 --> 00:25:11,580 Speaker 2: Definitely. Absolutely. But again, with any documentary subject, you really 433 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:16,189 Speaker 2: do Make sure that they have the mental fortitude before 434 00:25:16,230 --> 00:25:18,430 Speaker 2: you move forward with them. I mean, no one can 435 00:25:18,470 --> 00:25:20,650 Speaker 2: know or guess, but I've been around the block. Having 436 00:25:20,670 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 2: been around the block with Invisible War, we kind of 437 00:25:24,380 --> 00:25:28,980 Speaker 2: tried to make sure that whoever agreed to be on 438 00:25:29,020 --> 00:25:31,960 Speaker 2: camera knew what they were getting into. Yeah. 439 00:25:33,380 --> 00:25:34,880 Speaker 1: Was there any backlash for any of them? 440 00:25:35,380 --> 00:25:39,640 Speaker 2: Oh, there was backlash, big backlash. Yeah, huge. Mostly, unfortunately, 441 00:25:39,700 --> 00:25:41,820 Speaker 2: for the woman from Harvard, which broke my heart. 442 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:42,760 Speaker 1: Right, right. 443 00:25:43,190 --> 00:25:43,390 Speaker 2: Right. 444 00:25:43,410 --> 00:25:45,150 Speaker 1: I was going to say, are there any, are there 445 00:25:45,170 --> 00:25:48,130 Speaker 1: any of the stories in particular that have just, they 446 00:25:48,150 --> 00:25:50,770 Speaker 1: probably all have stuck with you, but in, in particular, 447 00:25:50,810 --> 00:25:53,990 Speaker 1: any of the women that you've stayed in touch with, 448 00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:59,800 Speaker 1: you know, that just, there are certain stories that don't 449 00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:03,359 Speaker 1: go away, especially, you know, I'm a true crime podcast 450 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:05,859 Speaker 1: and I myself can say, I do a lot of, 451 00:26:06,859 --> 00:26:13,210 Speaker 1: we cover a lot of really scary, horrible stories. A 452 00:26:13,250 --> 00:26:15,070 Speaker 1: lot of times though, what's so great about doing the 453 00:26:15,109 --> 00:26:19,580 Speaker 1: podcast is that at the end of it, you see justice, 454 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:22,659 Speaker 1: but you also see, not always by the way, but 455 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,980 Speaker 1: what you, I almost always see is resiliency on the 456 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:30,220 Speaker 1: part of victims. But I'm wondering if any of these 457 00:26:30,290 --> 00:26:33,770 Speaker 1: young women's stories have just sort of, you know, stood 458 00:26:33,830 --> 00:26:35,430 Speaker 1: out to you after all this time. 459 00:26:36,790 --> 00:26:42,970 Speaker 2: Well, there was one story. It, uh, I mean, there's 460 00:26:43,050 --> 00:26:45,150 Speaker 2: two that come to mind immediately. There are so many, 461 00:26:45,190 --> 00:26:47,270 Speaker 2: but I just do remember after the film was done, 462 00:26:47,310 --> 00:26:49,550 Speaker 2: I got a letter from a woman who I had 463 00:26:49,590 --> 00:26:52,510 Speaker 2: interviewed on camera and we ended up not using her interview. 464 00:26:53,190 --> 00:26:57,080 Speaker 2: And she wrote me this long letter about how she 465 00:26:57,140 --> 00:27:01,820 Speaker 2: was so happy we had just talked to her that 466 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:04,440 Speaker 2: she just wanted me to know that, that that meant 467 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,100 Speaker 2: the world because no one had believed her and she 468 00:27:07,140 --> 00:27:10,560 Speaker 2: couldn't tell her parents and that She didn't care whether 469 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:11,920 Speaker 2: she was in the film or not. It was just 470 00:27:11,980 --> 00:27:15,180 Speaker 2: a beautiful, I mean, it was, that was very, very moving. 471 00:27:30,460 --> 00:27:34,180 Speaker 1: What about the young woman who didn't want her parents 472 00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:37,880 Speaker 1: to look at her a certain way? I was trying 473 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:42,149 Speaker 1: to understand that. Did she not want them to carry 474 00:27:42,190 --> 00:27:45,760 Speaker 1: around that pain when she said that? Was there some 475 00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 1: guilt involved in it that maybe she was projecting that 476 00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:53,619 Speaker 1: they would be shamed of her? I was trying to 477 00:27:53,660 --> 00:27:57,280 Speaker 1: sort of figure out what she was afraid of only 478 00:27:57,300 --> 00:27:58,600 Speaker 1: in terms of telling her parents. 479 00:27:58,780 --> 00:28:05,200 Speaker 2: She broke my heart. She, just for the listeners, there 480 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:07,920 Speaker 2: was a woman who came in and I was interviewing 481 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:09,600 Speaker 2: her and I said, how are your parents going to 482 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:13,619 Speaker 2: feel when they're watching this movie? And how did they 483 00:28:13,660 --> 00:28:15,480 Speaker 2: take it when you told them? And how are they 484 00:28:15,500 --> 00:28:16,500 Speaker 2: going to feel about you being in the film and 485 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:17,969 Speaker 2: how did they take it when you first told them? 486 00:28:18,650 --> 00:28:20,210 Speaker 2: And she looked at me and this is on camera 487 00:28:20,230 --> 00:28:23,350 Speaker 2: and she says, I've never told them. So I was 488 00:28:23,390 --> 00:28:25,320 Speaker 2: kind of speechless and then I started to tear up. 489 00:28:25,390 --> 00:28:28,370 Speaker 2: And she had arrived at the interview holding a teddy bear. 490 00:28:29,910 --> 00:28:32,090 Speaker 2: And sat down, you know, this is like a college 491 00:28:32,109 --> 00:28:34,730 Speaker 2: sophomore with her teddy bear sitting down talking to me 492 00:28:34,780 --> 00:28:36,260 Speaker 2: and telling me she never told her parents. So I 493 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:39,100 Speaker 2: start to cry. I'm going to cry now. So I 494 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:41,380 Speaker 2: start to cry and she looks at me and she goes, 495 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:45,700 Speaker 2: do you want my bear? But to go back to 496 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:51,270 Speaker 2: what you were saying, this will be an interesting. So, yeah, 497 00:28:51,310 --> 00:28:54,730 Speaker 2: there is. It's not that she, you know, a lot 498 00:28:54,770 --> 00:28:56,990 Speaker 2: of people don't report these crimes because they do feel 499 00:28:57,010 --> 00:29:01,050 Speaker 2: ashamed sometimes. Sex is a very private, intimate act. For 500 00:29:01,090 --> 00:29:04,280 Speaker 2: some people, it's not. But for a lot of people, 501 00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:07,900 Speaker 2: it is. And it's not something they want to talk about. 502 00:29:08,100 --> 00:29:10,290 Speaker 2: You know, they don't want to tell people about it, 503 00:29:10,460 --> 00:29:12,860 Speaker 2: particularly not if they were assaulted. 504 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:16,300 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think that's, I would honor that, right? 505 00:29:16,500 --> 00:29:21,640 Speaker 1: And you never want, that's what is easier. And I do, 506 00:29:21,660 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 1: I honor that. But, and everybody has, different relationships with 507 00:29:28,820 --> 00:29:35,480 Speaker 1: their parents. But that to me also was so heartbreaking. Everything, 508 00:29:35,570 --> 00:29:38,170 Speaker 1: of course, because I have this daughter, so much of this, 509 00:29:38,190 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 1: I picture that and picture her not being able to 510 00:29:43,060 --> 00:29:47,240 Speaker 1: tell me that because she wouldn't want me and her 511 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:49,090 Speaker 1: father to look at her in a certain way. That was, 512 00:29:49,370 --> 00:29:52,810 Speaker 1: like you, I just, that really, that was hard to 513 00:29:52,850 --> 00:29:57,330 Speaker 1: hear and watch. And then you had another young woman 514 00:29:57,350 --> 00:30:01,870 Speaker 1: who said that the hardest part of it for her 515 00:30:02,570 --> 00:30:04,990 Speaker 1: was watching her parents carry. 516 00:30:04,730 --> 00:30:08,310 Speaker 2: It oh yeah the one whose dad always wore his 517 00:30:08,390 --> 00:30:09,490 Speaker 2: Notre Dame ring. 518 00:30:09,290 --> 00:30:12,470 Speaker 1: Yes he took off right right exactly and he wouldn't 519 00:30:12,490 --> 00:30:16,250 Speaker 1: wear his ring anymore and that was the hardest part 520 00:30:16,510 --> 00:30:23,430 Speaker 1: right yeah so do you think that now uh obviously 521 00:30:24,250 --> 00:30:28,270 Speaker 1: not all college campuses but most college campuses are safer 522 00:30:28,470 --> 00:30:32,620 Speaker 1: than they were back in 2015? No, unfortunately. 523 00:30:32,700 --> 00:30:38,720 Speaker 2: I think they were safer in 2018 and 2019 because 524 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:45,220 Speaker 2: people started, this film took off, it was college freshmen 525 00:30:45,260 --> 00:30:48,120 Speaker 2: watched it, seniors going off to college watched it. We 526 00:30:48,140 --> 00:30:49,830 Speaker 2: had like a campaign for two years and it was 527 00:30:49,870 --> 00:30:53,230 Speaker 2: very successful, but then you've got to keep educating. That's 528 00:30:53,250 --> 00:30:56,000 Speaker 2: the problem. So I do think they were safer for 529 00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:58,480 Speaker 2: a little while. I mean, we did pass laws in 530 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:01,480 Speaker 2: 12 states with our first campaign. But if no one's 531 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:04,420 Speaker 2: enforcing these laws, if no one's reshowing the film, if 532 00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:08,130 Speaker 2: no one's doing bystander intervention training, it's not happening anymore. 533 00:31:09,210 --> 00:31:13,450 Speaker 2: If no one's talking about these issues, I should be 534 00:31:13,550 --> 00:31:16,090 Speaker 2: still talking. I used to be invited on campuses to 535 00:31:16,130 --> 00:31:19,280 Speaker 2: talk and just give my talking points. You guys need 536 00:31:19,300 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 2: to know this and do what you want with this 537 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:24,460 Speaker 2: information because it does save lives. I talked to this 538 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:28,540 Speaker 2: prosecutor where I was like, she was amazing in LA. 539 00:31:28,580 --> 00:31:32,070 Speaker 2: She was like, she prosecuted rape cases. She was like 540 00:31:32,130 --> 00:31:34,290 Speaker 2: also a TV commentator. I loved her. I can't remember 541 00:31:34,310 --> 00:31:38,030 Speaker 2: her name. Anyways. So she said, Amy, I was losing 542 00:31:38,110 --> 00:31:41,330 Speaker 2: every case, every case in court, any rape case. I was, 543 00:31:41,730 --> 00:31:45,360 Speaker 2: I was also, I was trying John's. She was defending 544 00:31:45,420 --> 00:31:48,040 Speaker 2: prostitutes had been raped where the guy didn't, you know, 545 00:31:48,300 --> 00:31:48,920 Speaker 2: follow the rules. 546 00:31:48,940 --> 00:31:50,560 Speaker 1: We've seen a lot of that. I'm not to interrupt, 547 00:31:50,580 --> 00:31:54,420 Speaker 1: but we've focusing on true crime as we do, we 548 00:31:54,460 --> 00:31:59,080 Speaker 1: see a lot of that specifically like prostitutes and no 549 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:02,460 Speaker 1: one cared because of what they did. But go on. 550 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:05,980 Speaker 2: Right. So here she is trying to prosecute the rapists 551 00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:08,220 Speaker 2: of these prostitutes. She says, I was losing, losing, losing. 552 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:09,880 Speaker 2: She said, so one day I just had an idea. 553 00:32:09,900 --> 00:32:14,000 Speaker 2: I sat the jurors down. I asked them all. She says, 554 00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:18,060 Speaker 2: I said, everybody, okay, close your eyes. The jurors close 555 00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:23,330 Speaker 2: their eyes. She says, everybody think about Your most recent 556 00:32:23,730 --> 00:32:27,720 Speaker 2: best sex moment. Most recent, last time you had sex 557 00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:32,080 Speaker 2: and it was just amazing. And so, okay, everybody got it? 558 00:32:32,100 --> 00:32:34,640 Speaker 2: You have enough good picture? Okay, open your eyes. Okay, 559 00:32:35,220 --> 00:32:36,750 Speaker 2: raise your hand. Who wants to tell us about it? 560 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:41,010 Speaker 2: And silence. She goes, come on. Come on, anyone stand up. 561 00:32:41,180 --> 00:32:43,650 Speaker 2: Great time. Let's hear it. You know, want to hear 562 00:32:43,690 --> 00:32:45,910 Speaker 2: all of it, all the details? You know, what position? 563 00:32:45,930 --> 00:32:46,830 Speaker 1: That's powerful. 564 00:32:47,030 --> 00:32:50,580 Speaker 2: Right. And it was silence. And she said, now, why 565 00:32:50,620 --> 00:32:55,230 Speaker 2: do you think my client would want to voluntarily get 566 00:32:55,410 --> 00:32:59,190 Speaker 2: up and talk about the worst sex she's ever had 567 00:32:59,210 --> 00:33:00,610 Speaker 2: in her life if you don't even want to talk 568 00:33:00,630 --> 00:33:04,730 Speaker 2: about the best you've ever had? Right. So that's, to 569 00:33:04,780 --> 00:33:07,940 Speaker 2: your point, also about shame, about how people don't want 570 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:10,160 Speaker 2: to talk about sex even when it's great. You know, 571 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:10,740 Speaker 2: it's just like. 572 00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:14,620 Speaker 1: You know, I don't, it's, people say it's not about, well, 573 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:18,530 Speaker 1: it is, it is sex, I suppose, but it's about violence, right? 574 00:33:19,060 --> 00:33:23,220 Speaker 1: violence and power. But yeah, that's what's so awful is 575 00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:27,990 Speaker 1: that it's your body and it's the most intimate parts 576 00:33:28,030 --> 00:33:28,590 Speaker 1: of your body. 577 00:33:28,650 --> 00:33:32,390 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that story always stuck with me. 578 00:33:32,410 --> 00:33:36,690 Speaker 1: I was like, that's crazy. Yeah, I think that's really interesting. Yeah. Yeah. 579 00:33:37,070 --> 00:33:39,430 Speaker 1: And you don't even think that, so you don't think 580 00:33:39,470 --> 00:33:42,820 Speaker 1: it's changed necessarily on campus, but in terms of how 581 00:33:42,860 --> 00:33:47,700 Speaker 1: administrations at universities are handling accusations, even. 582 00:33:48,330 --> 00:33:51,250 Speaker 2: Honestly, I don't know enough to speak from a place 583 00:33:51,270 --> 00:33:54,290 Speaker 2: of knowledge. I know that things changed back in the day, back, 584 00:33:54,370 --> 00:33:56,930 Speaker 2: you know, in 2016, 2017. I was really involved with 585 00:33:56,970 --> 00:33:59,270 Speaker 2: this issue. I didn't, you know, you move on, you 586 00:33:59,310 --> 00:34:01,610 Speaker 2: make a different film. You know, I made other films 587 00:34:01,650 --> 00:34:04,390 Speaker 2: in the space, but I didn't stay involved on it as, 588 00:34:04,410 --> 00:34:07,260 Speaker 2: you know, a day-to-day activist. So I just can tell 589 00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:10,540 Speaker 2: by the Cornell 7 response, we still have a long 590 00:34:10,580 --> 00:34:13,480 Speaker 2: way to go. And I have another interesting anecdote about that, 591 00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:16,520 Speaker 2: if you, is that when we were making the movie, 592 00:34:16,950 --> 00:34:19,350 Speaker 2: I really, really wanted to get a college president to 593 00:34:19,390 --> 00:34:21,529 Speaker 2: talk with us on the record. That would be important, right? 594 00:34:22,350 --> 00:34:22,509 Speaker 1: Yep. 595 00:34:23,930 --> 00:34:28,870 Speaker 2: So I called a lot of them and few called 596 00:34:28,910 --> 00:34:31,370 Speaker 2: me back. And I think only one ends up in 597 00:34:31,390 --> 00:34:33,670 Speaker 2: the film, right? But most of them were like, I'll 598 00:34:33,690 --> 00:34:35,350 Speaker 2: talk to you, but it's got to be off the record. 599 00:34:35,410 --> 00:34:37,790 Speaker 2: There's no way I'm going on camera talking about this 600 00:34:37,830 --> 00:34:39,840 Speaker 2: with you. So I said, okay. So I talked to 601 00:34:39,860 --> 00:34:43,580 Speaker 2: the president of a very prestigious college and he will go, 602 00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:46,180 Speaker 2: I will honor his on anonymity, but it was a 603 00:34:46,180 --> 00:34:48,140 Speaker 2: big deal and a big college. And he said, Amy, 604 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:52,590 Speaker 2: I'm with you 100%. I read all the studies. I 605 00:34:52,620 --> 00:34:56,430 Speaker 2: saw that men, three men at this age living together unsupervised, 606 00:34:56,969 --> 00:34:58,730 Speaker 2: not a good idea. So did you know what I did? 607 00:34:59,150 --> 00:35:01,989 Speaker 2: I abolished fraternities on my campus and I told the 608 00:35:02,030 --> 00:35:05,030 Speaker 2: sports teams they cannot live in the same houses anymore, period, 609 00:35:05,050 --> 00:35:07,930 Speaker 2: end of sentence. He says, guess what happened six months later? 610 00:35:07,950 --> 00:35:11,549 Speaker 2: I said, what? He said, the parents bought houses off 611 00:35:11,590 --> 00:35:13,630 Speaker 2: campus so their boys could all live together. 612 00:35:14,860 --> 00:35:18,219 Speaker 1: So that reminds me of another podcast that we did, 613 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:22,960 Speaker 1: and it was about hazing. It was about boys that 614 00:35:22,980 --> 00:35:30,230 Speaker 1: had died throughout that process. And how part of the 615 00:35:30,270 --> 00:35:35,089 Speaker 1: problem in passing these laws is that there are so 616 00:35:35,130 --> 00:35:40,130 Speaker 1: many frat boys in the political system, let's say. A 617 00:35:40,170 --> 00:35:45,560 Speaker 1: lot of our politicians, male politicians, have been in frats 618 00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:50,140 Speaker 1: and loved it and are still very connected to that experience. 619 00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:55,940 Speaker 1: And so are less likely to really take a good 620 00:35:55,960 --> 00:36:00,040 Speaker 1: hard look at what's going on. You know, they're still 621 00:36:00,780 --> 00:36:04,180 Speaker 1: supporting their frats and whether it's financially or showing up 622 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:08,330 Speaker 1: to the tailgates with their, whatever it is, right? And 623 00:36:08,370 --> 00:36:12,950 Speaker 1: that kind of boys club that, you know, permeates not 624 00:36:13,010 --> 00:36:17,960 Speaker 1: just college campuses, but even after, you know, and alumni 625 00:36:17,980 --> 00:36:21,839 Speaker 1: that look back on it as their best years, right? 626 00:36:22,700 --> 00:36:28,589 Speaker 1: And wanted to remain that memory and want to protect that. 627 00:36:28,890 --> 00:36:34,110 Speaker 2: Oh, there's a tremendous amount of that going on. 628 00:36:34,690 --> 00:36:35,670 Speaker 1: Right, right. 629 00:36:35,690 --> 00:36:39,069 Speaker 2: And we really have to keep pushing back on that 630 00:36:39,110 --> 00:36:41,029 Speaker 2: and protecting our girls. Yes. 631 00:36:41,700 --> 00:36:43,820 Speaker 1: I think that you're incredible. I think the film is incredible. 632 00:36:43,860 --> 00:36:47,980 Speaker 1: I'm so glad I had the chance to watch it. Thanks. Yeah, no, really. 633 00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:50,600 Speaker 1: And you're doing, you're so busy and there's so much 634 00:36:50,700 --> 00:36:53,759 Speaker 1: activism that you're doing. I would be so thrilled to 635 00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:55,980 Speaker 1: have you back. I know this is not your only film. 636 00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:58,100 Speaker 1: You're all about making a difference. 637 00:36:58,460 --> 00:36:58,780 Speaker 2: Yeah. 638 00:36:58,860 --> 00:37:00,120 Speaker 1: I'd love to have you back, really. 639 00:37:00,550 --> 00:37:03,830 Speaker 2: That would be great. I appreciate you. Thank you for 640 00:37:03,870 --> 00:37:06,549 Speaker 2: putting a spotlight on this issue. Please, everyone will go 641 00:37:06,590 --> 00:37:08,950 Speaker 2: watch The Hunting Ground. I don't own it anymore. Lionsgate does. 642 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:12,299 Speaker 2: I don't make any money. Just watch it and have 643 00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:15,020 Speaker 2: a little house party for your friends and discuss it 644 00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:17,040 Speaker 2: and tell them to have house parties with their friends. 645 00:37:17,060 --> 00:37:19,380 Speaker 2: You'll be changing our culture. I mean, if you want 646 00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:22,200 Speaker 2: to do one thing, I promise you, I promise, promise, 647 00:37:22,219 --> 00:37:22,700 Speaker 2: promise you. 648 00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:24,790 Speaker 1: My kids are a little older, but I have plenty 649 00:37:24,810 --> 00:37:26,590 Speaker 1: of friends whose kids are about to leave for college 650 00:37:26,650 --> 00:37:29,810 Speaker 1: or just started college. So I don't know how much 651 00:37:29,850 --> 00:37:31,170 Speaker 1: they show it on college campuses. 652 00:37:32,150 --> 00:37:35,509 Speaker 2: Not at all. Right. I've been calling around. They don't 653 00:37:35,570 --> 00:37:37,650 Speaker 2: even want it. It's so sad what's going on down 654 00:37:37,670 --> 00:37:39,430 Speaker 2: over there. I can't even tell you. 655 00:37:39,450 --> 00:37:40,530 Speaker 1: That's scary. 656 00:37:41,310 --> 00:37:45,399 Speaker 2: It is. So we have to be our own little ecosystem. 657 00:37:45,900 --> 00:37:46,899 Speaker 1: Okay. Take care. 658 00:37:46,940 --> 00:37:47,780 Speaker 2: Bye. Bye.