1 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and welcome to wok F Daily with 2 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:19,239 Speaker 1: me your Girl, Danielle Moody recording from the Home Bunker. Folks, 3 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:23,959 Speaker 1: I am really excited to bring you this conversation with 4 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:29,880 Speaker 1: author and CNN journalist John Blake, who is penned the 5 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 1: book More Than I Imagined, And I have to tell 6 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:40,959 Speaker 1: you that this conversation with John was one of the 7 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:49,680 Speaker 1: most i opening, provocative conversations that I've had in a 8 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:56,720 Speaker 1: really long time. And in his book, John tells the 9 00:00:56,800 --> 00:01:01,960 Speaker 1: story of hiding the fact being closeted in his terms 10 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 1: about being biracial and having a white mother that he 11 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:13,600 Speaker 1: didn't meet until he was about seventeen years old. In 12 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:19,520 Speaker 1: the essay that he wrote for CNN back in April 13 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 1: of this year, it's entitled What a Black Man Discovered 14 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 1: when he Met the White Mother He Never knew. Folks, 15 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 1: if you don't run out and buy John's book more 16 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 1: than I imagine, than I plead with you to go over 17 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:39,840 Speaker 1: to CNN dot com and read What a Black Man 18 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:42,759 Speaker 1: Discovered when he Met the White Mother He Never Knew. 19 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:51,640 Speaker 1: The essay is beautiful, the story is beyond compelling, but 20 00:01:51,840 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 1: John's story mirrors the kinds of conversations vulnerability and expandiveness 21 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 1: we need to be having in this moment when the 22 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:13,239 Speaker 1: Republican white supremacist Party is working over time to push 23 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 1: us further and further apart as a society. And I 24 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:23,959 Speaker 1: think now more than ever, that's when you reach your 25 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:31,080 Speaker 1: arms out for those who are reaching back. And so 26 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 1: this was a robust conversation. It was one that honestly 27 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 1: I could have had for hours and hours and hours. 28 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 1: And so without further ado, I bring you a really 29 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:54,160 Speaker 1: in depth conversation with author, journalist, writer John Blake. Folks, 30 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 1: I am very excited to welcome to OKF Daily for 31 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 1: the very first time award winning CNN journalist and author 32 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 1: John Blake, whose latest book, More Than I Imagined is Your 33 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:17,640 Speaker 1: Personal Narrative. His personal narrative about being raised in the 34 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 1: inner City of Baltimore in the nineteen seventies and being 35 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:26,960 Speaker 1: I guess, in your words, you say closeted by racial 36 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 1: man until you, in fact meet your white mother, and John, 37 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 1: I have to say that your essay, which I want 38 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 1: to tell folks, the title of your essay at CNN, 39 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:48,000 Speaker 1: which came out in the spring of this year, What 40 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 1: a Black Man Discovered when he met the white mother 41 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 1: he never knew was one of the most captivating essays, 42 00:03:56,040 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 1: which I know is the inspiration and is a directly 43 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 1: taken from your book. Pieces I've read in a long time, 44 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 1: and I read a lot. I read a lot, and 45 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:16,720 Speaker 1: one of the things I want to I want to 46 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 1: jump in with is something that stood out to me 47 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:26,360 Speaker 1: in the essay that I have personally been grappling with 48 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 1: probably since I started this show, which is when you 49 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 1: wrote facts don't change people relationships do? 50 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:39,920 Speaker 2: Yeah? 51 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, John, I'm just going to say, please, please, 52 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:49,839 Speaker 1: please talk to me so that I can stop looking 53 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:56,520 Speaker 1: for statistics, that I can stop looking to shove truth 54 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:03,039 Speaker 1: in people's faces and pray to some God that they 55 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 1: will wake up from this racist maga coma that they 56 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:15,680 Speaker 1: have been seduced to be in. But that if we're honest, 57 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 1: this country has been gripped by since it's creation. But 58 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:26,680 Speaker 1: reading that in Black and White, facts don't change people 59 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 1: relationships do, I said, well, God, damn, I have to 60 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 1: start over. 61 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:37,120 Speaker 2: So you know, it's funny you mentioned that because so 62 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:41,280 Speaker 2: many people cite that quote, and it seems like the 63 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:45,280 Speaker 2: enlarges with people's you know, memories and to me, it's 64 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 2: kind of a dangerous quote because I don't want to 65 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 2: imply that facts aren't important. I mean, I'm a journalist 66 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:55,440 Speaker 2: like you, so I revere facts. I know that facts 67 00:05:55,480 --> 00:06:01,720 Speaker 2: are very important. But that quote comes from twenty five years, 68 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:04,280 Speaker 2: twenty five plus years of being a journalist writing about 69 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 2: race and politics. I've covered so many racial reckonings that 70 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:12,360 Speaker 2: come and go. And to give you an idea about 71 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:16,240 Speaker 2: how old I am, I wrote about Clarence Thomas' nomination 72 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:20,719 Speaker 2: to the Supreme Court. I covered the Rodney King protest 73 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:25,080 Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety two. So I've seen these racial awakenings 74 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:29,599 Speaker 2: come in America and go, and we write these hard 75 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 2: hitting stories about race. We thought I thought that all 76 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:37,920 Speaker 2: these videos of people like George Floyd would decisively shift 77 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 2: racial attitudes. And yet after George Floyd, more white Americans voted. 78 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:47,679 Speaker 2: More Americans voted for Trump than any other president before 79 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 2: besides Joe Biden. So I asked myself, as a journalist, 80 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:57,479 Speaker 2: what shifts racial attitudes? Because it's definitely not facts and information. 81 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:00,520 Speaker 2: It's helpful, but that's not the decisive thing. And then 82 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:04,320 Speaker 2: I looked at my family. So you mentioned your question. 83 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:07,679 Speaker 2: You know, the maga coma, the maga madness. The white 84 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 2: members of my family were caught up in their own madness, 85 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 2: their own racism. These were people, you know, brief description, 86 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 2: who rejected me at birth. My mother disappeared from my 87 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 2: life right after I was born. There was no explanation. 88 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 2: Her family wanted nothing to do with me because my 89 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 2: father is black. These were people who freely used the 90 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 2: N word, who thought that white and black people should 91 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 2: be kept apart. And yet today we're family. We have 92 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 2: this close, close, beautiful relationship. And I asked myself, how 93 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:41,560 Speaker 2: did that happen? And it came through relationships. It came 94 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 2: through us getting to know one another year after year, 95 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 2: time after time. And to me, that's why I said 96 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 2: that when I looked at me, when I looked at 97 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 2: when I looked at a lot of social science things 98 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 2: that really changed people, it's really being in relationships. Those 99 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 2: are the things that decisively shift racial attitudes. And I 100 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 2: think we've forgotten that. You know, a long time ago, 101 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 2: I'm going to mention a word that is so uncool 102 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:10,240 Speaker 2: that you might boot me off the show for saying it. 103 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 2: But people used to talk about this thing called integration. Yeah, 104 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 2: you know when King talked about it, I have a dream, 105 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 2: you know all these when he dreamt of a day 106 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:20,440 Speaker 2: where white and black people would sit together at the 107 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 2: table brotherhood. There was an understanding that in the fight 108 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 2: for racial justice, yes you have to pass the Voting 109 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:27,880 Speaker 2: Rights Act, Yes you have to do all these things, 110 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 2: but you also have to put people in situations where 111 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:34,200 Speaker 2: they will be around people who see the world differently, 112 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:37,800 Speaker 2: and in doing so, people will see their common humanity 113 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 2: and change also occurs there. So that's what happened to 114 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 2: my family, and I begin to see that that's what 115 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 2: really changed them, not all this knowledge I had about racism. 116 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 2: So that's why I put that quote in that essay 117 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:50,440 Speaker 2: that you read. 118 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 1: And I will say this that it isn't and I 119 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 1: didn't interpret it as sax don't like that, sex don't 120 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:06,360 Speaker 1: matter what. But what it like stung was that you 121 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 1: cannot change people that you are not willing to engage. 122 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:15,120 Speaker 2: That's a beautiful point. And in my situation, I was 123 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 2: forced to engage with white family members who were captured 124 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 2: by racism and didn't want anything to do with me, 125 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:26,439 Speaker 2: because I had to come together with them to take 126 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:28,680 Speaker 2: care of my mom. And as I mentioned in the 127 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 2: estimate essay. I first met my mom at seventeen. It 128 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:34,959 Speaker 2: was this totally unexpected meeting, and the place where a 129 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:38,439 Speaker 2: met her was a mental institution. She had been institutionalized 130 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:41,480 Speaker 2: for schizophrenia. So I had to come together and become 131 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 2: her caretaker. And to do that successfully, I had to 132 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:47,679 Speaker 2: work together with my white relatives, the same ones who 133 00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:51,480 Speaker 2: wanted nothing to do with me. Now, I never thought 134 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 2: that that relationship would change me and change them, but 135 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:57,160 Speaker 2: it did. So I tried to figure out, like, how 136 00:09:57,160 --> 00:09:59,240 Speaker 2: does this stuff happen? And I read a lot of 137 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:01,360 Speaker 2: literature about it, and it keeps on going back to 138 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:05,440 Speaker 2: the same thing, bringing people together. There is a reason 139 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 2: why racist white Americans have fought through our history so 140 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 2: much against bringing black and white people together. You know, 141 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:18,440 Speaker 2: segregation wasn't just created because white people hated black people. 142 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 2: Segregation was created because white people, white elite people knew 143 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 2: that if white working class and black and brown working 144 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 2: class people ever lived together, went to school together, they 145 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 2: would notice that they had common interest yep. So I 146 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:35,560 Speaker 2: think it's really important that integration that we see for 147 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:39,520 Speaker 2: what it is. It's not assimilation, meaning that we learn 148 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:41,559 Speaker 2: how to be more white and to mean more dulcile 149 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 2: and just be like them. 150 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:42,599 Speaker 1: No. 151 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 2: To me, integration is about power. It's about sharing space 152 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 2: but also sharing power. But in doing so, that's the 153 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 2: thing that shifts racial attitudes. 154 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:58,559 Speaker 1: You know, you speak, you know in such a logical 155 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:04,960 Speaker 1: way and in such an easy way, because I I 156 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 1: think about your aunt, yeah who you know who we 157 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 1: write about, and you know said, well, I didn't not 158 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 1: come to see you because you were black, Like it's 159 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:21,560 Speaker 1: because you were in Catholic right, Like, let's just live 160 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 1: in the river of denial, right like it wasn't you know, 161 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 1: because and you please share the story of your of 162 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 1: your of your father and your mother, and your father 163 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:37,520 Speaker 1: going to your mother's neighborhood, going to her home. Yeah, 164 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 1: please tell tell the listeners what happened in nineteen sixty three. 165 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 2: Okay, So when I was born in the mid sixties, 166 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 2: interracial marriage was illegal in much of the country. It 167 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:51,679 Speaker 2: wasn't like it is today. There was no Obama or 168 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 2: Kamala Harris in public, in pop culture, in the public eye. 169 00:11:56,760 --> 00:12:01,200 Speaker 2: Interracial marriages were illegal, and if a black man could 170 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:03,240 Speaker 2: be seen with a white woman in public, he could 171 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:07,600 Speaker 2: literally be killed. And yet my father during that time decided, 172 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:11,079 Speaker 2: for whatever reason, that he was going to date my mom, 173 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 2: And so when he went to visit her for a 174 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 2: date in Baltimore, he took a cab there, and first 175 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:20,320 Speaker 2: a cab driver I didn't even want to take him 176 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 2: there because black people didn't go there, but he convinced 177 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 2: him to do so. And when he knocked on my 178 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:29,920 Speaker 2: mother's door, her father answered the door and he physically 179 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:34,560 Speaker 2: assaulted my father, called him the inWORD, and had him arrested. 180 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 2: And yet despite that, my mother decided to date my 181 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 2: father and to have two black kids with him. And 182 00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:45,679 Speaker 2: that's the world that they lived in. But to give 183 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 2: you an idea, you know my family, and this is 184 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 2: part of a strange part of my story. That same 185 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 2: father that assaulted my father, who called him the inWORD, 186 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:57,240 Speaker 2: my maternal grandfather, is somebody that I was able to 187 00:12:57,320 --> 00:13:01,960 Speaker 2: reconcile with. But none of this happened unless you'd engage 188 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 2: with people who see the world differently. And it's very 189 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:06,199 Speaker 2: difficult to do because you know, Frankly, as a journalist 190 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 2: who covers race, I get tired of black people. We're 191 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:15,840 Speaker 2: always trying to understand them, we always have to forgive them. 192 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:20,000 Speaker 2: It is so tiring, and so I can understand people 193 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 2: who don't want to do that, but I was forced 194 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:24,079 Speaker 2: to do it because this is my family and I 195 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:25,200 Speaker 2: got to take care of my mom, and I have 196 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:28,679 Speaker 2: to understand these people. But in doing so, I learned 197 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:31,040 Speaker 2: so much and it changed me. I just didn't change them, 198 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:33,200 Speaker 2: but they changed me. So I thought it was a 199 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 2: beautiful story. And we don't really hear those type of 200 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:36,880 Speaker 2: stories about race right now. 201 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 1: No, because see, I mean, the only stories that we 202 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 1: hear right are the story that we just heard recently 203 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:50,959 Speaker 1: in Texas. Black mother goes to confront her white neighbor. Yeah, 204 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:56,960 Speaker 1: mother of four, she's dead, yeight ye. Black boy sent 205 00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 1: to go pick up his little brother, knocks on the 206 00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:03,240 Speaker 1: wrong door. Right, who shot in the head? 207 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 2: Right? 208 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:06,400 Speaker 1: Do you know what I'm saying. I know you like 209 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:13,360 Speaker 1: your your father's story. That interaction has been so normalized, yes, 210 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:19,560 Speaker 1: but the escalation in it is that people are shot 211 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:25,760 Speaker 1: dead right or harmed in their tracks simply for daring 212 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 1: to do what your father to do what your father did. 213 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:31,240 Speaker 1: And so for me, I'm just like laying out just 214 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 1: those two stories. There are like two thousand more in 215 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:43,960 Speaker 1: the last two years that sound like nineteen sixty three. 216 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 2: And go ahead. I'm sorry, I don't want to interview. 217 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:47,640 Speaker 1: No, I was just gonna say that for me, it 218 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:50,680 Speaker 1: does become I tell people all the time who listen 219 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 1: to woke a app, I'm exhausted all the goddamn time, right, 220 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:57,840 Speaker 1: like I am. You know, I tell people to really, 221 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:02,120 Speaker 1: you know, particularly people of color, he particularly activists who 222 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:06,200 Speaker 1: are on the front lines, particularly journalists, to take really 223 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 1: good care of their mental and emotional well being, right 224 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 1: because this work is designed to wear you down, right, 225 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:17,720 Speaker 1: And you know, And so I ask you, like you 226 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:24,120 Speaker 1: made these inroads, did you feel like you had to 227 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 1: drop your preconceived notions, your anger because you were hiding 228 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:35,480 Speaker 1: before you said I was closeted as biracial. I'm checking 229 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 1: other boxes that say that my mom is black. That 230 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:42,480 Speaker 1: was not the case. So what did you have to 231 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 1: shift in order to allow for space? 232 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:50,440 Speaker 2: Well, I want to say two things today. One is 233 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:53,800 Speaker 2: when you were talking about how this work wears you down, 234 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:57,560 Speaker 2: and I can totally relate to that. But for all 235 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:00,880 Speaker 2: those stories that are tragic, the ones you rightly mentioned, 236 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 2: I think there are other stories out there where people 237 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:06,080 Speaker 2: find a way to connect. We just don't really hear 238 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:09,320 Speaker 2: about them. I think it's really important that we tell 239 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:13,840 Speaker 2: these stories about racism that show people finding a way 240 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 2: to get past it, because if we keep on telling 241 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:22,200 Speaker 2: the same story that implies or says that America is 242 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 2: so racist, it will never change, that white people will 243 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 2: never change. If that's the only story we're telling, what 244 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 2: incentive does white America have to change? What hope do 245 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 2: we have that we can ever make a multiracial democracy work. 246 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:37,720 Speaker 2: So the stories we tell are incredibly important to give 247 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:40,880 Speaker 2: people the energy. It was this writer I like, she 248 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:45,640 Speaker 2: said that action without hope is impossible, and we're telling 249 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:47,880 Speaker 2: hopeless stories. People aren't going to have hope. They're not 250 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:50,480 Speaker 2: going to think they can change things. So that's fun. 251 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:52,480 Speaker 2: But two, you ask me about what did I have 252 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 2: to do to shift to make these to me that 253 00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:58,240 Speaker 2: the quick answer is I had to get a little humility. 254 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 2: I had to Like you mentioned my mother's sister. I 255 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 2: talked about my mother's sister in that essay. He was 256 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:08,240 Speaker 2: a woman's stone cold racist as far as I was concerned, 257 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 2: who denied when I met her in my mid twenties 258 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:14,399 Speaker 2: that race had racism had anything to do with her 259 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 2: absence from my life. So I was very angry at her, 260 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:20,159 Speaker 2: and she would try to reach out to me and 261 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:23,639 Speaker 2: establaghe this relationship. But I tell this story about how 262 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:27,760 Speaker 2: I went to Lowe's one weekend to buy something for 263 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:32,960 Speaker 2: my home improvement project, and I could myself racially profiling 264 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:35,639 Speaker 2: a black man, meaning there was a black man and 265 00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:38,240 Speaker 2: a white man behind the counter. The white man was 266 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:42,160 Speaker 2: on the phone, but I waited till he was off 267 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:43,640 Speaker 2: the phone to ask him for help. But I didn't 268 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 2: ask the black man who was free. And only later 269 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 2: did I realized that, and that I began to realize, 270 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 2: you know, racism is so powerful that it can even 271 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:56,240 Speaker 2: infect black people. And we know what happened with Tyree Nichols. 272 00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:59,640 Speaker 2: He was beating the black out. So I said, let 273 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:03,400 Speaker 2: me a little grace to my aunt, this woman who denied, 274 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:06,199 Speaker 2: who denies her own racism because she grew up in 275 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:08,600 Speaker 2: this all white world. She's not aware of these things. 276 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 2: And when I did that, our relationship began to shift. 277 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:14,439 Speaker 2: I didn't preach to her, I didn't condemn her for 278 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:17,400 Speaker 2: a racism. I started to just try to understand where 279 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:19,560 Speaker 2: she come and came from to build this common ground. 280 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:22,120 Speaker 2: And so with a little humility like with in her, 281 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 2: A little bit of that is in me as well. 282 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 2: So it's not the sexy thing to say. It's so 283 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:29,199 Speaker 2: much easier to just condemn, and it feels good and 284 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 2: we should And I don't get me wrong, I'm not 285 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:34,480 Speaker 2: saying we shouldn't be angry. Somebody told me once an interview, 286 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:37,119 Speaker 2: or you're not angry anyone like hell no, it is 287 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:39,359 Speaker 2: right to be angry when you see black people struck 288 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 2: down like that. It is healthy, you know. But I'm 289 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:44,119 Speaker 2: not talking I'm talking about this all consuming anger that 290 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:47,120 Speaker 2: takes you out where you see all white people this way, 291 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:50,080 Speaker 2: are any group that way? That's that is not good. 292 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:52,720 Speaker 2: And so when I saw when I approached my aunt, 293 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 2: my white aunt, with this kind of humility, that really 294 00:18:56,680 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 2: helped our relationship and now we're like this family. She 295 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:04,199 Speaker 2: maybe the beneficiary in her will. I never would have 296 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:06,520 Speaker 2: predicted that, but it happened. 297 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:13,280 Speaker 1: What you're stating, and the story that your book, your 298 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 1: story unveils for us, is that what we have to 299 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:22,600 Speaker 1: understand is that there are concerted efforts that are being 300 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:27,240 Speaker 1: made by people in high up places that see the 301 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:31,440 Speaker 1: rest of us as pieces on a chessboard that they 302 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:35,640 Speaker 1: move around, and they keep apart in order to win 303 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:41,639 Speaker 1: their game. Right, right, there is money made right in 304 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:45,239 Speaker 1: the dissension. In the dissension, there is money that is 305 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:49,720 Speaker 1: made in the misery. Right And and I you know, 306 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 1: and the place that I come to, though, John, is 307 00:19:54,560 --> 00:20:01,639 Speaker 1: that how do you see moving from the place that 308 00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:06,439 Speaker 1: we are in right now in this country, which is 309 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 1: a tinderbox, back to a place of conversation When your 310 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:20,439 Speaker 1: book is probably banned in Florida, when your book is 311 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 1: probably banned in Texas, in Alabama, in all of these places, 312 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:31,280 Speaker 1: where are the are are the roots of the trees 313 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:33,000 Speaker 1: are soaked with black people's blood? 314 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 2: Mm hm. 315 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:38,919 Speaker 1: So how do we move into the place that we 316 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:42,439 Speaker 1: need to do, where narrative, where conversation and storytelling is 317 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:45,760 Speaker 1: so important, when we don't even have those books anymore? 318 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:50,400 Speaker 2: Well, that's a that's a very good question, and it's tough. 319 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 2: In I would say two things. One is, I think 320 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 2: one of the most important things we can do is 321 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:06,240 Speaker 2: to not lose hope in telling those type of stories. 322 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 2: And I said earlier that action without hope is impossible. 323 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 2: And what I sense from people like yourself, people who've 324 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:18,480 Speaker 2: been writing about race and try to tell these stories 325 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:23,159 Speaker 2: to change America. I sense exhaustion, you know, like, just 326 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:25,320 Speaker 2: how do we get past that? And I think when 327 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 2: we get to that point, it can be easy to 328 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:30,240 Speaker 2: say nothing's ever going to change. Like I had a 329 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:33,240 Speaker 2: guy tell me the other day that racism is embedded 330 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:36,680 Speaker 2: in our DNA, that people can't change. So I think 331 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:40,400 Speaker 2: one is we can't give into that kind of hopelessness. 332 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:43,359 Speaker 2: And one of the easier said to done. I know, 333 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:46,720 Speaker 2: but one of the things that really helped me is 334 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:48,919 Speaker 2: that I looked at my mom and her life. So 335 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:52,560 Speaker 2: I'm like, I asked myself, how do people who seem 336 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:55,560 Speaker 2: like they have no power deal with people who seem 337 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 2: like they have a lot of power, and how do 338 00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 2: they change things? So when my mother met my father 339 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:03,920 Speaker 2: in the mid sixties, over ninety percent of Americans opposed 340 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 2: in a racial marriage. About a year ago pol was taken, 341 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 2: and now something like ninety four percent approve of interracial marriage. 342 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,359 Speaker 2: And it cuts across all political racial lines. And so 343 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:18,360 Speaker 2: I asked myself, how did that dramatic shift take place 344 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:21,480 Speaker 2: in a lifetime. And you know, because a black man 345 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:24,200 Speaker 2: could be killed, like I said before, just walking in 346 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:27,680 Speaker 2: public book and now you see biracial children, interracial couples, 347 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 2: it's no big deal. How did that happen? And I 348 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:33,919 Speaker 2: think part of the things that happened is that ordinary 349 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:36,640 Speaker 2: people like my mom and dad, they did not give 350 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:41,040 Speaker 2: into hopelessness. They saw these all these antimessgenation laws as absurd, 351 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:43,960 Speaker 2: and they acted. They didn't wait for judges of politicians 352 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:46,640 Speaker 2: to decide. They said, I'm going to love who I'm 353 00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:49,840 Speaker 2: gonna love, regardless of skin color. And when enough of 354 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 2: them started doing that, it created a chain effect, a 355 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:57,480 Speaker 2: ripple effect, until it changed norms, and then the politicians 356 00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:00,440 Speaker 2: and the judges had no choice but to decide. This 357 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:03,720 Speaker 2: was the same dynamic in gay marriage. If you remember, 358 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:06,680 Speaker 2: not too long ago, George W. Bush ran against gay 359 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:11,160 Speaker 2: marriage and ran and won. But all these game less 360 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:15,119 Speaker 2: people came out to their husband, you know, to their families, 361 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:18,080 Speaker 2: to their friends and their jobs, and that shifted that 362 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:21,520 Speaker 2: norm and then the Supreme Court and the politician's followed. 363 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:23,440 Speaker 2: So one of my favorite writers a guy named Eric 364 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:27,080 Speaker 2: lou and he says norms changed before policy changes. So 365 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 2: I think what I've learned from my mom is that 366 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:31,840 Speaker 2: people who seem like they have that that they have 367 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 2: no power when they act on their conscience, on their convictions, 368 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 2: they can have tremendous power. They can change norms. And 369 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:41,360 Speaker 2: when you change norms, the laws and the policy will 370 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:44,040 Speaker 2: eventually follow. So to me, that means what we do 371 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 2: in our private life, what we do in our actions, 372 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:49,320 Speaker 2: that really matters, and we can't give up hope. So 373 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:51,880 Speaker 2: that's that's one of the things that gives me hope. 374 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 2: And two, one of the things that gives me hope, 375 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:56,160 Speaker 2: and I talk about this in the book, is that 376 00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 2: I think one of the things you get white Americans 377 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 2: to brace change is to stress that it's in their 378 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 2: self interest. Okay, if you're going to appeal to a 379 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:07,680 Speaker 2: group's morality, like do this because it's the right thing, 380 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:10,520 Speaker 2: that's pretty weak argument. But if you look at some 381 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:13,359 Speaker 2: of the biggest changes we've had in history, with the 382 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:16,600 Speaker 2: passage of civil rights laws, white Americans have decided what's 383 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:19,119 Speaker 2: in their interest. Why did the Voting Rights Act and 384 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:21,000 Speaker 2: the Civil Rights Act and all those laws passed the 385 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:24,119 Speaker 2: mid sixties. A huge part, as you probably know, was 386 00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 2: because of the Cold War. We were engaged in this 387 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:31,119 Speaker 2: big competition with Russia, and we look like hypocrites. We 388 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:34,679 Speaker 2: are all engaged with another great power competition with China, 389 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 2: where they say democracy doesn't work. So I believe that 390 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:41,520 Speaker 2: when White America gets to the point they realize we 391 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:45,880 Speaker 2: have to make this work if we're going to be vital, prosperous, 392 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:49,119 Speaker 2: remain a superpower, particularly when we have such a the 393 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:52,960 Speaker 2: very demographic change in our country. I think when many 394 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:54,720 Speaker 2: of them start to see it in their self interest, 395 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:57,120 Speaker 2: that also gives me hope that they will be changed. 396 00:24:57,160 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 2: And that was a very long answer, but sorry about that. 397 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,199 Speaker 1: But yeah, no, not a very long answer. But I 398 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:09,080 Speaker 1: want to ask you a final question. You know, as 399 00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 1: a journalist, John, what responsibility do you think that journalism 400 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:25,359 Speaker 1: bears now as we are watching our democracy circle the drain, 401 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:35,160 Speaker 1: as we are watching race relations disintegrate. And what I 402 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 1: often say on this show is that mainstream media is 403 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:43,400 Speaker 1: aiding and abedding in our destruction. And so, as a journalist, 404 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:49,600 Speaker 1: what responsibility do you see this very powerful industry have 405 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:52,720 Speaker 1: in our survival? 406 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:57,439 Speaker 2: Two things come to mind. One is that we I 407 00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:02,600 Speaker 2: think we can't hide behind claims the neutrality to avoid 408 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:07,920 Speaker 2: calling out things that are anti democratic. So we're training 409 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 2: and journalists to always show both sides of the story. 410 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:15,320 Speaker 2: But I think there are certain stories that it would 411 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:19,480 Speaker 2: be a disservice to our readers to say that there 412 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:22,960 Speaker 2: are two morally equivalent points of view here. For example, 413 00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:26,360 Speaker 2: you say January sixth was an insurrection. You don't say 414 00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:28,639 Speaker 2: January sixth was an insurrection, but others say it was 415 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:32,680 Speaker 2: a protest. No, you say it was an insurrection. You say, 416 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:35,640 Speaker 2: if a politician is saying something racist, you don't use 417 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:39,280 Speaker 2: a euphanism like racially charged or anything like that. You said, no, 418 00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:42,320 Speaker 2: that was a racist statement. So I think calling out 419 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:45,520 Speaker 2: things that threaten out democracy is one of the things 420 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,160 Speaker 2: we can do to protect it, and I think that's 421 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:54,040 Speaker 2: incredibly vital. I think number two is something else. Someone 422 00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 2: that told me when they read my book, they said, 423 00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:59,679 Speaker 2: this is a very subversive story. And I thought that 424 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 2: was interesting, and I thought it and I kind of 425 00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:07,760 Speaker 2: agree with it now. It's subversive because I'm humanizing people 426 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:11,919 Speaker 2: that a lot of people think that journalists are opposed to, 427 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:15,840 Speaker 2: Like I'm humanizing members of my family who are frankly 428 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:18,720 Speaker 2: who were very racist, and I'm showing him as multidimensional 429 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,240 Speaker 2: human beings and I'm treating them with respect, and I'm 430 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:23,880 Speaker 2: listening to him. I think when we do that too, 431 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 2: when we also try to engage people as journalists who 432 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:29,280 Speaker 2: see the world differently it might be different politics, different 433 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:32,320 Speaker 2: skin color, that we just don't dismiss him as all, 434 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:37,000 Speaker 2: you know, beyond redemption, beyond inability to change. I think 435 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:40,720 Speaker 2: that's really important as well. And I know that's kind 436 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:42,960 Speaker 2: of some people might say, you know, you're kind of 437 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,320 Speaker 2: being like an ople tom or something like that. But 438 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:48,080 Speaker 2: for example, if I'm talking to a white conservative who 439 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:51,280 Speaker 2: might support Trump, I think one of the most effective 440 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:54,800 Speaker 2: things I can do is treat them with respect and consideration, 441 00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:59,399 Speaker 2: because that defies what people tell them about the media. 442 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:01,600 Speaker 2: So I think there's something else that we can do. 443 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:03,560 Speaker 2: So I don't know if that makes sense. 444 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:08,040 Speaker 1: It does, John, it absolutely does. And you know, I'm 445 00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:12,840 Speaker 1: so appreciative of one of your writing, of you sharing 446 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:19,239 Speaker 1: a story, particularly now that we're not listening right and 447 00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:24,400 Speaker 1: we're not reading right in ways that we could, and 448 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:30,640 Speaker 1: we're being so overwrought with hopelessness and despair that most 449 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:34,480 Speaker 1: people are just turning away. And I think a part 450 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:36,960 Speaker 1: of my job one is to bring the alarm on 451 00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:40,200 Speaker 1: those injustices, but it is also to remind people of 452 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:43,760 Speaker 1: their personal power regardless of the size of their platform 453 00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:46,320 Speaker 1: or not. That you have voice. And as long as 454 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:48,480 Speaker 1: you have voice, you can have conversation. And as long 455 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:50,920 Speaker 1: as we stay in dialogue, then there's hope. 456 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:54,960 Speaker 2: Where do you get your hope from? 457 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 1: When you where do I get by home? I like 458 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:03,000 Speaker 1: how you journal, it's turning the tables at me. Where 459 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:05,800 Speaker 1: do I get my hope from? You know, people, I 460 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:08,000 Speaker 1: get my hope from people. I get my hope from, 461 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:10,960 Speaker 1: you know, the audiences that listen to my show. I 462 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 1: get my hope from the fact that you know, I 463 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:20,719 Speaker 1: am have seen so much shift in this country in 464 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:27,479 Speaker 1: what seems like a short period of time. To your point, 465 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 1: you know about the shift in interracial My my father, 466 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:38,080 Speaker 1: my stepfather is white. Right is you know is a 467 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:44,280 Speaker 1: white man, and you know my cousins are bi racial. Right. 468 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 1: I am a black queer woman, right, that fought on 469 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:53,320 Speaker 1: the front lines for marriage equality, right, and that has 470 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:55,520 Speaker 1: used my voice in so many different ways. And I 471 00:29:55,560 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 1: have watched opinions shift. I've watched you know, corporations raise 472 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 1: rainbow flags that now there's you know they're taking down. 473 00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:11,440 Speaker 1: But I think so long as people keep talking, I 474 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:15,480 Speaker 1: believe that people can change and That's why that quote 475 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,880 Speaker 1: for me was just like, yeah, this is really about 476 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:24,400 Speaker 1: connectivity and relationships and dialogue and so so long as 477 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:29,040 Speaker 1: we are doing that, I believe that there's hope. 478 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:32,040 Speaker 2: Oh definitely. I mean that's the story of my family. 479 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:36,160 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, we didn't talk as much about it, 480 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,800 Speaker 2: but the neighborhod I come from in West Baltimore is 481 00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:43,880 Speaker 2: a place known for hopelessness. Also the Wire, Yeah, the 482 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:48,000 Speaker 2: Freddie Gray Uprising rebellion. Uh So it's not a place 483 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:51,080 Speaker 2: where you can expect this type of story where white 484 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:53,560 Speaker 2: and black people can come together. Particularly white people wanted 485 00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:55,680 Speaker 2: nothing to do with this black family but that, but 486 00:30:55,880 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 2: that happened. So yeah, I think when I use the 487 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:03,560 Speaker 2: word hope, somebody use the term that I prefer, say 488 00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 2: a muscular type of hope. When I'm saying hope, I'm 489 00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:10,720 Speaker 2: not talking to like a Hallmark card hope, a naive, wishful, 490 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,720 Speaker 2: wishful hope. But I'm talking about a muscular kind of 491 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:16,840 Speaker 2: hope that acknowledges how difficult it is, but believes that 492 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,280 Speaker 2: we fight together, we can make this happen. And to me, 493 00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:21,320 Speaker 2: it's that kind of hope that's part of black culture. 494 00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 2: To me, you don't survive the Middle Passage. You don't 495 00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:28,560 Speaker 2: survive slavery without having hope and so that you know 496 00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:31,000 Speaker 2: tomorrow can somehow be better. So that's the type of 497 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:34,400 Speaker 2: hope I'm talking about. And I almost feel like it's 498 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:36,880 Speaker 2: really uncool if you write about race to tell stories 499 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:39,280 Speaker 2: like that. I was, I was talking to an editor 500 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:42,520 Speaker 2: about my book and he said, I can't do anything 501 00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:44,360 Speaker 2: on it. I'm like, why, He said, Well, I can't 502 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:48,280 Speaker 2: do anything unless it triggers controversy, you know, and I don't. 503 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:51,320 Speaker 2: I frankly don't know where the Yeah. Yeah, they don't 504 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:54,160 Speaker 2: frankly know what to do if it's a story that 505 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:57,560 Speaker 2: shows people coming together. So and I think that's a 506 00:31:57,600 --> 00:31:59,720 Speaker 2: mistake because, like I said, if we're just telling the 507 00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:03,320 Speaker 2: same story of despair and hopelessness, that kind of we're 508 00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:06,400 Speaker 2: really not that different from the MAGA people who say, yeah, 509 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:09,600 Speaker 2: Trump talked about American carnage, that the country's going to hell. 510 00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:14,160 Speaker 2: You know, people don't get energized by that. People don't 511 00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:15,640 Speaker 2: get inspired to like change. 512 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:18,479 Speaker 1: So anyway, I know, but it's but it's a it's 513 00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:21,000 Speaker 1: one hundred percent true. And you know what, I will 514 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,840 Speaker 1: add on to the question that you that you asked 515 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:26,360 Speaker 1: me about where do I find hope? I think that 516 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:29,560 Speaker 1: to and I joke on this show all the time, 517 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,000 Speaker 1: and I say, I carry around a mustard seed of hope, 518 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:34,160 Speaker 1: right like that is what is that is what is 519 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:37,440 Speaker 1: in my pocket on a day to day basis. But 520 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:40,600 Speaker 1: the fact is that I wouldn't do the work that 521 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,720 Speaker 1: I do if I wasn't hopeful. I wouldn't you know. 522 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:47,560 Speaker 1: I wouldn't fight for our democracy, if I wasn't a patriot, 523 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:50,560 Speaker 1: I wouldn't you know I And I think that to 524 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:56,080 Speaker 1: allow hopelessness to take over is to spit in the 525 00:32:56,120 --> 00:33:05,960 Speaker 1: face of my ancestors, who I mean, had to live 526 00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:10,120 Speaker 1: with so much pain, so much trauma, and had to 527 00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:13,640 Speaker 1: endure it in order for me to be here, right, 528 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:17,760 Speaker 1: And they endured it because they had hope, because they 529 00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 1: had faith, right, And so to lose hopefulness, to lose, 530 00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:27,680 Speaker 1: to lose, to lose out on that, and to succumb 531 00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:32,880 Speaker 1: to hopefulness, I think would be to make a mockery 532 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:35,960 Speaker 1: of their pain. And I refuse to do that well. 533 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:37,920 Speaker 2: As Beautifley said, and that's one of the things I 534 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:40,960 Speaker 2: wanted to convey with my story. When you write a memoir. 535 00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:43,440 Speaker 2: My first duty is to be honest and take this 536 00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:46,080 Speaker 2: follow the story wherever it goes. But I have to 537 00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:47,880 Speaker 2: meet when I was writing it, and I wrote a 538 00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:50,479 Speaker 2: lot of it, doing the follow up the George Floyd 539 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:53,520 Speaker 2: in the Pandemic. It really gave me a lot more 540 00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:55,800 Speaker 2: hope than I realized. It really changed the way I 541 00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:58,120 Speaker 2: approached my job, the way I look at the future. 542 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:02,600 Speaker 2: Just to see how my mom, who this woman who 543 00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:05,600 Speaker 2: seemed like she had no power had nothing, taught me 544 00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:09,440 Speaker 2: so much about resilience and about you know, faith and hopefulness. 545 00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:13,759 Speaker 2: So yeah, I I appreciate this chance to share that 546 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:14,080 Speaker 2: with you. 547 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:18,880 Speaker 1: I appreciate you so much. Thank you, Thank you John 548 00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:22,560 Speaker 1: for making the time to join woke F and folks, 549 00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:26,080 Speaker 1: don't walk but run to go and get this book 550 00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:31,120 Speaker 1: more than I imagined, And don't walk, but run to 551 00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:34,440 Speaker 1: go and read his essay at CNN dot com What 552 00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:37,200 Speaker 1: a black man discovered when he met the white mother 553 00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:41,040 Speaker 1: he never knew. This was an absolute pleasure, and I 554 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:42,840 Speaker 1: really do hope that you'll join us again. 555 00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:45,279 Speaker 2: I'm wok honor to thank you so much. 556 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:54,000 Speaker 1: Thank you. That is it for me today, dear friends 557 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:58,080 Speaker 1: on woke F. As always power to the people and 558 00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:03,000 Speaker 1: to all the people power. Get woke and stay woke 559 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:03,479 Speaker 1: as fuck.