Speaker 1: Hey there, folks. It is Saturday, August fifteenth, and he
Speaker 1: had one of the most prestigious positions at one of
Speaker 1: the most prestigious universities in all the world. He resigned
Speaker 1: from that position just ten days ago. This morning he's
Speaker 1: dead and with that, Welcome to this episode of Amy
Speaker 1: and TJ. A tragedy from start to finish in this story, Robes,
Speaker 1: it is sad what has happened, but it's sad what
Speaker 1: happened beforehand, and it's sad the conversation that is happening
Speaker 1: around this. This has been a controversial story that's been
Speaker 1: making headlines over the past couple of weeks.
Speaker 2: You know what, It's ugly and tragic. I feel like
Speaker 2: that might be the best way to describe it. And
Speaker 2: there are lessons to be learned and changes that need
Speaker 2: to be made on multiple fronts given this tragedy. But
Speaker 2: this was a story that had so many element of
Speaker 2: the first and redemption and overcoming and inspiration, and everyone
Speaker 2: wanted to get swept up in the beauty and inspiration
Speaker 2: of this story. And then the dark turn it took
Speaker 2: that ended with this young man that did have so
Speaker 2: much promise. It ended in his tragic death and unnecessarily
Speaker 2: so it it's a hell.
Speaker 1: Of a story and it sounds like Roges. He was
Speaker 1: pushed to this by an incredible public attack and scrutiny,
Speaker 1: some which is certainly warranted and deserved and we should
Speaker 1: be okay with. But this went to another level to
Speaker 1: where now this professor Jason Arday, forty one years old
Speaker 1: Cambridge professor who became the youngest black professor in the
Speaker 1: history of that storied university at the age of thirty seven,
Speaker 1: has now passed away. Just found out getting word of it,
Speaker 1: Robes yesterday morning. His body was found at a home
Speaker 1: in London. Now, based on the statement from his family
Speaker 1: and everything that's coming out, I think we are okay
Speaker 1: and it's fair to say, Robes, he took his own life. Yes,
Speaker 1: that's what his family certainly suggesting in their statement.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 2: And when you hear what led to this death, it
Speaker 2: all the pieces of the puzzle fit at table store. Yeah,
Speaker 2: he was found on responsive, Yes, and police officially said
Speaker 2: his death was not suspicious. And then you put that
Speaker 2: together with the family statement and yes, it's fair to
Speaker 2: say that the pressure, the shame, the scrutiny just was
Speaker 2: too much for him.
Speaker 1: To bear, and this has been going on. Robes. He
Speaker 1: resigned August fifth from Cambridge, but his name had been
Speaker 1: in headline certainly weeks leading up to that, because in
Speaker 1: Romes we know this is everything in academia, plagiarism, research,
Speaker 1: research papers, plagiarism is everything. So he got all kinds
Speaker 1: of heat. Folks were reviewing, doing official reviews of his
Speaker 1: previous work. Plagiarism was found. They had instances in some cases, Robes,
Speaker 1: they're not just talking about one or two. I was
Speaker 1: talking about in some cases hundreds of incidents they found
Speaker 1: that were similar, very similar to or identical to stuff
Speaker 1: they found in other work. He of course pushed back
Speaker 1: and said absolutely not. He got some support from some
Speaker 1: universities at the time, but Robes, this thing got going.
Speaker 1: And then what you had here in the US, what
Speaker 1: has our debate been about? And they jumped on it.
Speaker 1: D freakin' ideis said.
Speaker 2: He was underqualified and there were plenty of other candidates
Speaker 2: who had much I guess much.
Speaker 3: They were more.
Speaker 2: Tenured, they had better resumes, they were more qualified. According
Speaker 2: to many colleagues or people who were on that level,
Speaker 2: who say he just wasn't ready yet for this position.
Speaker 2: And there was a rush to put in that position
Speaker 2: because they wanted to diversify their teaching staff. How many
Speaker 2: what was it's a very low percentage of black professors
Speaker 2: at Cambridge. So the claim was that you laugh because
Speaker 2: it's kind of.
Speaker 3: Like a duh.
Speaker 2: But in an effort, according to the critics to Bolster
Speaker 2: that they were so willing and so quick to just
Speaker 2: to not scrutinize his credentials, to not scrutinize his work,
Speaker 2: to not scrutinize this backstory that many people say now
Speaker 2: he either embellished or completely lied about in terms of
Speaker 2: just his overcoming and some of his athletic feats there
Speaker 2: are just it looks as though he padded and distorted
Speaker 2: and embellished his not only his resume, but his backstory
Speaker 2: and then certainly his published work.
Speaker 1: And so yeah, you got a thirty seven year old
Speaker 1: getting this gig over obviously a bunch of folks who
Speaker 1: thought they were more qualified or have some issue with
Speaker 1: him and see him as Look, he became a star,
Speaker 1: certainly a star there in the UK, but he was
Speaker 1: an international star. Robe this had not happened before this
Speaker 1: as a young black man. And by the way, his
Speaker 1: backstory included overcoming autism. His backstory included being nonverbal. He
Speaker 1: said till he was eleven, couldn't read or write until
Speaker 1: he was eighteen. His backstory was incredible of Ghanaian immigrant parents.
Speaker 2: And so the university was peddling this story. They were
Speaker 2: promoting him. He was doing the talk shows, he was
Speaker 2: on television. Look at this man who has overcome so much.
Speaker 2: He was giving hope to parents who have autistic children,
Speaker 2: all sorts of things. That he got so much attention,
Speaker 2: not only because of how young he was, but because of.
Speaker 3: What it took to get him where he was.
Speaker 1: Ro So, you just said he got so much attention,
Speaker 1: and with that comes scrutiny, and there was a lot
Speaker 1: of it. And the racial argument you might be able
Speaker 1: to make, which is a legitimate one, Robes, is that
Speaker 1: they really came after him him because he's black, to
Speaker 1: really try to take this guy down, tear him down.
Speaker 1: There's a level of scrutiny and criticism that he got.
Speaker 1: Then his white counterparts would not. There have been plenty
Speaker 1: of stories of plagiarism and folks doing this stuff and
Speaker 1: in academia. Fine, but Robes, the problem here is that
Speaker 1: if you had the scrutiny and the criticism that came
Speaker 1: was not okay. But now it can be justified because
Speaker 1: there are things that were found that were wrong. You
Speaker 1: know what I'm saying. They like we can justify how
Speaker 1: we treated him because it turns out parts of what
Speaker 1: we were saying were right. That's the wrong conversation in
Speaker 1: my in my opinion, Robes, we've been talking about this
Speaker 1: recently and we need to make this a theme of
Speaker 1: our world. Accountability does not have to come with cruelty.
Speaker 1: You can hold him accountable, you can ask these questions.
Speaker 1: This dude was destroyed online.
Speaker 3: And we see what the result was.
Speaker 2: And this is important for anyone who thinks it's okay.
Speaker 2: And I think that's such an important point to People
Speaker 2: can be wrong, They can be found to.
Speaker 3: Have lied, cheated, stolen whatever.
Speaker 2: It doesn't mean that in turn, in response, we can
Speaker 2: sit from our couches or our non glass homes and
Speaker 2: just hurl hate and spew awful words of just cruelty.
Speaker 2: Because we say this all the time. Words are weapons.
Speaker 2: Words matter. Words have horrific impact on folks. What you write,
Speaker 2: what you comment. All of that people read, they hear,
Speaker 2: they absorb and you see what happened here in this case.
Speaker 1: And roabes this university. I had to go back and
Speaker 1: do a little research here. But Cambridge, I mean, I
Speaker 1: have the understanding Cambridge Oxford, right, I have a general
Speaker 1: idea of how prestigious it is. But this is the
Speaker 1: university of Stephen Hawking, of Sir Isaac Newton, kings and queens,
Speaker 1: including the current King of England. This is all the
Speaker 1: mater if you will, right mind, is University of Arkansas
Speaker 1: you or it's of Georgia. He's got Cambridge's his alma mater.
Speaker 1: That's the countless monarchs and royalty have come through this place.
Speaker 1: I didn't realize this nugget Robes came. It was created
Speaker 1: because of some beef that professors in Oxford got into.
Speaker 1: Some of those professors said the hell with it, We're
Speaker 1: gonna go over here and start our own university. So
Speaker 1: what you have is Cambridge is just a spin off
Speaker 1: of Oxford, is what? This is an incredible university. A
Speaker 1: black kid with his background at that age getting that
Speaker 1: spot was something worth celebrating. But Robes, it's not just him,
Speaker 1: but the university is getting what. By all accounts, Robes
Speaker 1: some pretty fair criticism for how they pushed him to
Speaker 1: the front and didn't scrutinize what seemed to be some
Speaker 1: obvious things that need to be screwed up.
Speaker 2: Yes, and now, of course everyone is doing the Monday
Speaker 2: morning co backing, but I do think that it absolutely
Speaker 2: needs to be answered, and yes, Cambridge needs to acknowledge
Speaker 2: what they did and their part in all of this, because, look,
Speaker 2: we can get into some of these claims, but specifically
Speaker 2: even the fact that he was nonverbal he claimed until
Speaker 2: he was eleven and didn't wasn't able to write, I
Speaker 2: believe until he was eighteen, writer read until he was eighteen.
Speaker 2: A lot of folks who know autism, who actually are
Speaker 2: affiliated with the university say that right there should have
Speaker 2: raised a red flag because there is no documented situation
Speaker 2: or incident or specific case.
Speaker 3: Where that would even be possible or plausible.
Speaker 1: They say he would be a medical miracle like this
Speaker 1: doesn't happen. There is no medical literature that has anything
Speaker 1: like this happened so real, that's not just a while
Speaker 1: that's rare or never happened before.
Speaker 2: So how do some of the smartest people in the world,
Speaker 2: with all of the most incredible research and researchers of
Speaker 2: the who already are well versed on this subject. How
Speaker 2: did they not say, we might need.
Speaker 1: To look into that because he did have some legit
Speaker 1: parts of his background that were impressive, and they thought
Speaker 1: they had a we got one.
Speaker 3: Oh, I wanted to believe that.
Speaker 1: Yes, Robes to the point that they put some things
Speaker 1: to the side. This isn't our criticism of them, This
Speaker 1: is their own. This is every This is professors at
Speaker 1: the university robes. Within months of him being selected, they
Speaker 1: sent letters saying, hey, heads up, might want to take
Speaker 1: a look at this. They've known about this, Ropes, it's there.
Speaker 1: So it seems they they, like you said, they we
Speaker 1: want to believe.
Speaker 2: And they paraded him and I in that way, like
Speaker 2: they said, see look at him, see look at us,
Speaker 2: And they preferred the story and the image versus actually
Speaker 2: looking into And that is a university. That is any
Speaker 2: business's responsibility. When you're hiring someone, you gotta check the resume,
Speaker 2: you gotta check the sources, you gotta check all of that.
Speaker 2: That's part of the due diligence of hiring someone. And
Speaker 2: then you put them up on this pedestal and you
Speaker 2: parade them around to local media and to international media,
Speaker 2: and you're patting yourself on the back and you're putting
Speaker 2: him up as a shining example. Meantime, you haven't properly
Speaker 2: vetted him.
Speaker 1: Pros they ok before you even get to the vetting,
Speaker 1: they said he shouldn't have gotten the job because of
Speaker 1: his resume. He just didn't have He didn't stack up
Speaker 1: like a thirty seven year old from what I've seen
Speaker 1: of his background. Okay, I agree with that, but I
Speaker 1: also leave room for a diversity of experiences that make
Speaker 1: him qualified. I'm okay with that, and I would love
Speaker 1: for schools to do more of this consideration. I got
Speaker 1: no problem with that part. But ropes, you go to
Speaker 1: the next part of it. Okay, he's not qualified, but
Speaker 1: I'm listening to you for saying you want to hire
Speaker 1: him and look into this or this or this or this.
Speaker 1: We run marathons. What's the first thing? Before I even
Speaker 1: looked at a research paper if we were on this
Speaker 1: hiring committee. He ran thirty marathons in thirty five days,
Speaker 1: is his claim.
Speaker 3: Okay, six hundred miles in six days.
Speaker 1: Like this is bro that was a that's a separate thing.
Speaker 1: He's talking like two this would make him one of
Speaker 1: the most elite runners the world has ever known.
Speaker 3: And that is exactly how it was said.
Speaker 2: And I look, I gotta believe that someone in Cambridge
Speaker 2: is a marathon er.
Speaker 3: I know there aren't many of us. What are one
Speaker 3: percent of the world has run?
Speaker 1: They'll have they're doing research paper.
Speaker 3: Some of the world has run one marathon.
Speaker 2: Someone says they ran six hundred miles in six days.
Speaker 2: That two might be a medical miracle in addition to
Speaker 2: him overcoming autism and not being verbal for the first
Speaker 2: eleven years of his life.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that record. I'm trying to think a man
Speaker 1: set that record. He only one man has ever done
Speaker 1: that in the history of the world, only one woman
Speaker 1: has and she only did it like in the past years.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, it is an anomaly. It doesn't happen.
Speaker 2: It's not something that you would ever see. And if
Speaker 2: you did see it on a resume, you might want
Speaker 2: to check that out like that absolutely was their job.
Speaker 2: And so to your point, if he didn't have the
Speaker 2: academic credentials that one would assume one would need to
Speaker 2: become a professor at Cambridge, then yes, if he brings
Speaker 2: an experience, a background and has value in these other
Speaker 2: incredible feats to inspire and continue to teach students. You
Speaker 2: might want to make sure those other things that you're
Speaker 2: latting they are saying offset his academic experience. They sure
Speaker 2: as hell better be true, and turns out they weren't.
Speaker 1: And there were a number of things. Robes. The Times
Speaker 1: of London did an analysis of a twenty fifteen thesis
Speaker 1: of his said they found countless incidents of identical or
Speaker 1: nearly identical lines from previous work from another Researcherguson.
Speaker 2: As in it wasn't hard, it was almost it was
Speaker 2: very easy for them to quickly realize what was going on.
Speaker 1: Cambridge at first defended him and then they launched an
Speaker 1: investigation Robe because they said they had new information and
Speaker 1: that's what led ultimately, and I should mention this as well.
Speaker 1: One of the research and maybe this was part of
Speaker 1: the problem. One of the researchers who has been the loudest,
Speaker 1: a former researcher at Cambridge robes he's the wrong message.
Speaker 1: He's a racist, he's the wrong message. I don't want
Speaker 1: to go that far nice stuff out because but he
Speaker 1: has put out some views, Robes and some research that
Speaker 1: can only be viewed as racist, essentially saying that black
Speaker 1: people are intellectually inferior.
Speaker 3: I would say that is absolutely.
Speaker 1: That's racist. And when you push that, push him on
Speaker 1: that point, he would come back and say he is
Speaker 1: based on science and he is against wokeism, and so
Speaker 1: he's that guy. So if he's been bringing up things
Speaker 1: about this professor, he's not the right. Even if he's right,
Speaker 1: he's the wrong messenger.
Speaker 2: Because he was very easy at that point to have
Speaker 2: this man his name is Nathan Kaffness, when he's the
Speaker 2: one shouting from the rooftops that doctor r Day is
Speaker 2: not qualified for this job and he is railing against DEI.
Speaker 2: At the same time, it was easy for Cambridge to say,
Speaker 2: these are smear campaigns, this is a this is an
Speaker 2: attack based on, you know, his racist beliefs, and so
Speaker 2: it was easy to diminish what he was saying and
Speaker 2: put him in a different category and basically kind of
Speaker 2: negate anything he was saying because he was biased.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was no ether. Some of his stuff is
Speaker 1: pretty shocked.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's I looked a little bit into it. It
Speaker 3: is actually appalling.
Speaker 1: But again Redes no matter what mistakes and missteps that
Speaker 1: were made by Cambridge. We want to assign responsibility. There's
Speaker 1: a young man dead right now, and is that a
Speaker 1: matter of I mean book, if he lied, if he cheated,
Speaker 1: that is wrong and he should be held accountable.
Speaker 3: Absolutely.
Speaker 1: I don't know how we go about doing those things
Speaker 1: Robes without now this public assault that people are subjected
Speaker 1: to online, and then you throw in some politics, throw
Speaker 1: in race, and it apparently was too much. It's just
Speaker 1: there is no way to defend Robes if he cheated
Speaker 1: his way, there's no way to defend how we hold
Speaker 1: him accountable for doing so, And there's no way Robes
Speaker 1: to defend how Cambridge and the role they have played
Speaker 1: in all this. So you start at the top, You're like,
Speaker 1: there's so much blame and responsibility and stuff to go around.
Speaker 1: We all failed here.
Speaker 3: That is so true.
Speaker 2: And look, yes, to your point, he should be held accountable. Yes,
Speaker 2: and he was, and he resigned and he stepped down
Speaker 2: in shame and humiliation and it just didn't stop. At
Speaker 2: what point how much is someone supposed to pay for
Speaker 2: the harm they caused? And yes, there should have maybe
Speaker 2: been I don't know what else should have or could
Speaker 2: have happened, or at least maybe lessons learned here, but
Speaker 2: certainly I think we can all agree he didn't deserve
Speaker 2: to pay with his life.
Speaker 1: We will let you hear now really ominous words that
Speaker 1: we got from him in his resignation letter. Will also
Speaker 1: let you hear from his family. And yes, we are
Speaker 1: hearing from Cambridge University.
Speaker 2: Welcome back everyone to Amy and TJ. We are talking
Speaker 2: about doctor Jason our Day, the youngest black professor. He
Speaker 2: became a professor at the age of thirty seven at
Speaker 2: the esteemed Cambridge University. He is now dead after he
Speaker 2: was exposed.
Speaker 3: I guess so to speak, for.
Speaker 2: Embellishing his past history but plagiarizing some of his work.
Speaker 2: And so yes, he resigned from Cambridge ten days ago
Speaker 2: and now unfortunately it appears he has taken.
Speaker 1: His own life now the resignation letter. We'll let you
Speaker 1: hear the family's statement as well. But this was his
Speaker 1: resignation letter. He started saying it was profound sadness that
Speaker 1: he was writing to resign. He said, though sadly the
Speaker 1: years since my appointment have been marked by an unrelenting
Speaker 1: level of public scrutiny and personal attack. While criticism is
Speaker 1: an inevitable part of academic life. What I have experienced
Speaker 1: has gone far beyond scholarly disagreement. The relentless accusation, speculation,
Speaker 1: and public commentary have taken a profound toll on me
Speaker 1: and on those I love. I can't again, worldes how
Speaker 1: much space, how much grace? How much dignity do we
Speaker 1: give people that we feel have done something wrong? And
Speaker 1: this is just I don't know. I see the evidence
Speaker 1: out there against him. I have questions about marathons and
Speaker 1: all this stuff. He has denied any wrongdoing rose, but
Speaker 1: this stuff is how do we do this? People? Just
Speaker 1: a public attack to the point that he killed himself. Okay,
Speaker 1: let's just say what it is. And others could argue, well,
Speaker 1: he did it because he knew he was a liar
Speaker 1: and he was just trying to not take responsibility. Is
Speaker 1: that true as well?
Speaker 3: I don't say both my futrios. They both could be true.
Speaker 2: He went on to write, I have tried to continue
Speaker 2: because I believe deeply in the values of higher education,
Speaker 2: in rigorous scholarship, and in the transformative power of universities.
Speaker 2: I have tried because of my students, my colleagues, and
Speaker 2: the countless people who have written to tell me that
Speaker 2: my journey gave them hope. But there comes a point
Speaker 2: when the personal cost becomes too great. I have a family.
Speaker 2: I want to be present for them. I want to
Speaker 2: reclaim some peace, some privacy, and some semblance of an
Speaker 2: ordinary life. I no longer wish to feel as though
Speaker 2: I am living under a constant spotlight, where every aspect
Speaker 2: of my life is subject to public examination and judgment.
Speaker 2: It's sad because in this resignation level he talks of
Speaker 2: a future, and to know what happened just a few
Speaker 2: days later is just gutting. He went on to say,
Speaker 2: for my own well being, for my family, and for
Speaker 2: those who have stood by me throughout this difficult period,
Speaker 2: I have concluded that the only way to bring this
Speaker 2: chapter to an end is to step away. This decision
Speaker 2: should not be interpreted as a loss of faith in
Speaker 2: scholarship or in the values that first brought me to Cambridge,
Speaker 2: nor should it be mistaken for an acceptance of the
Speaker 2: narratives that have surrounded me. It is simply the decision
Speaker 2: of someone who has reached the limits of what any
Speaker 2: person should reasonably be expected to endure.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we uh eh, it sucks to read that now.
Speaker 1: We yeah, you get there, and we have been there,
Speaker 1: and we have been there to the point that the
Speaker 1: thoughts crossed our minds about taking our own lives because
Speaker 1: you wanted to stop.
Speaker 3: You just one piece.
Speaker 1: You just please leave me alone, make this stop. And
Speaker 1: it's an onslaught and it's a narrative that you can't
Speaker 1: get back. People are saying things about you that you
Speaker 1: can't stop, you can't control. It's gone. Your reputation is gone.
Speaker 2: When your reputation is gone, whether it's true or not,
Speaker 2: whether some of it's true and some of it's false,
Speaker 2: it is almost impossible to reclaim. It is overwhelming. And
Speaker 2: when you're in the midst of it, when you've lost
Speaker 2: it all, how do you get it back?
Speaker 1: And he is saying in that letter of Robes, he's
Speaker 1: laying out and yes, a lot of that completely made
Speaker 1: sense to us from where he was, but Robes at
Speaker 1: that point on August fifth, he goes from August fifth
Speaker 1: to August fourteenth. August fourteenth is when he was found
Speaker 1: dead again less than ten days later. His family did
Speaker 1: put out a statement as well, saying saying that Jason
Speaker 1: was subjected to a campaign of sustained abuse for more
Speaker 1: than three years since he accepted the role at Cambridge
Speaker 1: by those who would leave no stone unturned in their
Speaker 1: quest to undermine him. Called it a campaign of misinformation.
Speaker 1: It was too much for Jason, who was a gentleman
Speaker 1: who always wanted to see the best in everyone. We
Speaker 1: are in shock at the loss of this amazing father, partner, brother, uncle,
Speaker 1: and son said they're not going to be commenting any
Speaker 1: further farther in robes. They said they want to stop
Speaker 1: the campaign of harassment which has been waged against Jason
Speaker 1: and his family for too long. I don't know, babe,
Speaker 1: it is. You can call people out, we say, call
Speaker 1: people out, even that is in some way sounds aggressive
Speaker 1: or even violent, calling people out like there is a
Speaker 1: there's a thing, or a duty or responsibility you have.
Speaker 1: You can have these discussions and we how do we
Speaker 1: handle people now in this age of social media robes
Speaker 1: that do something wrong, we are they must be he
Speaker 1: stopped and their lives must end according to us, the
Speaker 1: Twitter model.
Speaker 3: This is the epitome of cancel culture.
Speaker 2: People make mistakes, people make lots of mistakes, people embellish,
Speaker 2: people lie, people had resumes and obviously none of that
Speaker 2: is good it's not anything.
Speaker 3: That's that's applauded.
Speaker 2: Obviously, there needs to be consequences when folks make bad decisions.
Speaker 2: But at what point losing your job, losing your reputation,
Speaker 2: at what point is that enough? At what point do
Speaker 2: you have to keep piling on and keep accusing and keep.
Speaker 3: Criticizing. It's it's heavy, heavy, heavy. And his book just
Speaker 3: came out this week.
Speaker 1: Yes, Simon Memore, Yeah, Simon Schuster made the decision when
Speaker 1: all this was going on, that it was going to
Speaker 1: come out on schedule. I don't know how they feel
Speaker 1: about that. Now. It feels icky. Obviously they couldn't see
Speaker 1: or foresee something like this, but they decided they were
Speaker 1: moving forward. Nothing's been proven, No academic institution has come
Speaker 1: out and says we have found this, and we are
Speaker 1: stripping him of this master's we're stripping him of this degree.
Speaker 1: So I don't know, but they made this. Yep, we're
Speaker 1: moving forward, and now here they are. They have a
Speaker 1: book on their hands that they put out from this
Speaker 1: guy in the midst of all of this, and he
Speaker 1: just killed himself.
Speaker 3: Great and Unfortunate Things is the name of his book.
Speaker 3: And you mentioned just his resume.
Speaker 2: I mean, he has a degree in education, two master's degrees, PhD.
Speaker 2: I mean, he was a learned man. And look, we
Speaker 2: don't know exactly what was true and what wasn't.
Speaker 4: But at this point that Cambridge needs to just go
Speaker 4: over their policies and they're vetting and all of that,
Speaker 4: but it's not something that I mean, how much more
Speaker 4: do they need to.
Speaker 3: Investigate.
Speaker 1: They knew they messed this up. Yeah, right, they knew
Speaker 1: they did. And I'm you know, you could even argue
Speaker 1: maybe our hearts were in the right place, right, And
Speaker 1: I do Robes. I am very much into this idea
Speaker 1: and we were talking about this with women just the
Speaker 1: other day. There is a diversity of education. There is
Speaker 1: a diversity of good attributes that contribute to a Cambridge
Speaker 1: or a business or whatever it may be, that go
Speaker 1: beyond just what you see on paper from education or resume.
Speaker 2: That's okay, Absolutely, it enriches university to have different viewpoints,
Speaker 2: different backgrounds, different levels of experience, not just about your
Speaker 2: degree or what university you went to or what paper
Speaker 2: you published, but also, yes, I love that, a diversity
Speaker 2: of experience that you can bring to the classroom that
Speaker 2: will enrich kids' lives period.
Speaker 1: Suppose to just be a meritocracy, Robes, and under that measure,
Speaker 1: we are always going to be behind. I mean, right, Robes,
Speaker 1: your people got a full hundred year head start in
Speaker 1: this country over mine. We're still playing ketchup and a lot.
Speaker 1: That's just true. So how do you balance things out, Robes?
Speaker 1: But this sucks. Cambridge did so much damage to the
Speaker 1: cause of diversity by being in a rush, possibly to
Speaker 1: put in a guy. So now what does everybody who's
Speaker 1: anti DEI get to say? Ce ce ce c. So
Speaker 1: now every four star general, everybody who is an elite
Speaker 1: professor that's black on a campus, everybody who has gotten
Speaker 1: an elite position in business, we can just look at
Speaker 1: him and say they're not here because they earned it.
Speaker 1: This is an is an awful story for the cause, Robes,
Speaker 1: for the cause of diversity. This hurts because he is
Speaker 1: not representative of everything and everybody. They're gonna use this
Speaker 1: as an individual biprofile example of see what happens when
Speaker 1: you have these policies. See what happens when you do this.
Speaker 1: The university put out a statement just saying they're saddened
Speaker 1: by the tragic news and send out their quote. Heartfelt
Speaker 1: sympathies to his family, But Rose, this is a hot
Speaker 1: story for weeks, and this is how it ends, or
Speaker 1: maybe this doesn't end here. I don't know.
Speaker 3: It's an awful ending.
Speaker 2: When you saw the headlines late yesterday, you just your
Speaker 2: heart sank.
Speaker 1: It's just awful.
Speaker 2: It was the worst possible outcome. There's always I think
Speaker 2: you and I both believe this. There is always an
Speaker 2: opportunity for people to learn and grow and evolve and
Speaker 2: take something like.
Speaker 3: This and make it. Make it. There's a silver lining
Speaker 3: he could if it given enough time. What could he
Speaker 3: have done? How could he have redeemed himself? What could
Speaker 3: his messaging have been?
Speaker 2: And how maybe in his worst, darkest moment he actually
Speaker 2: could have truly inspired people. He really could have said, hey,
Speaker 2: now I have hit rock bottom and let me admit
Speaker 2: all of this and here's why, and here's what I learned.
Speaker 2: And it could have been a wonderful story. But he
Speaker 2: wasn't given the chance because he just couldn't get out
Speaker 2: from underneath all the hate that was piling up and
Speaker 2: piling up from piling.
Speaker 1: Okay, how about this, Robes, I just thought about it.
Speaker 1: You were talking. Is there any chance he gets the
Speaker 1: job if he is the son of Ghanan immigrants who
Speaker 1: has multiple degrees, multiple masters, and a PhD. Forget that
Speaker 1: he had autism, Forget that he ran the marathons, Forget
Speaker 1: that he was non verbal until he was eleven, Forget
Speaker 1: that he couldn't read and write until he was eighteen?
Speaker 1: Like did he need that stuff? Would Cambridge have given
Speaker 1: him the time of day if he didn't have the extracurriculars?
Speaker 1: If you will? Right? So we tell kids in high school, right,
Speaker 1: you gotta get some.
Speaker 3: Out to stand out.
Speaker 1: Is that what happened here?
Speaker 2: I believe so, because they said there were other Actually
Speaker 2: there were two women I believe who were black, who
Speaker 2: were up for that same position, and they were more qualified,
Speaker 2: but they chose him, And it is largely believed because
Speaker 2: of that incredible back story, that incredible personal story that
Speaker 2: he described.
Speaker 3: But yes, there have been plenty of people in his
Speaker 3: past who have come out.
Speaker 2: Teachers, people who worked with him, who knew him when
Speaker 2: he was younger, and they just completely disputed yeah account.
Speaker 2: And I think that's what so remarkable. Did he not
Speaker 2: think the people who knew him, who he was growing
Speaker 2: up around, wouldn't come out and say, dude, you were laughing,
Speaker 2: joking talking what you were absolutely verbal. Yes, he was
Speaker 2: in different classes, and he certainly had a learning disability.
Speaker 3: I think that was absolutely verified.
Speaker 2: But it's interesting to me that he never imagined anyone
Speaker 2: from his past would come out and refute what he
Speaker 2: was saying.
Speaker 1: Just that start to finish. It was sad, but that's
Speaker 1: the updates on the story that's been making headlines this weekly.
Speaker 1: Appreciate you as always spending a little time with us
Speaker 1: on behalf of my Idear Amy Roboc, I'm TJ. Holmes
Speaker 1: will talk to you also