WEBVTT - The 'Unruly' British Monarchy (with David Mitchell)

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of iHeartRadio and Grim

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<v Speaker 1>and Mild from Aaron Manky. Listener discretion advised. I'm so

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<v Speaker 1>thrilled to be talking to the brilliant David Mitchell, who's

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<v Speaker 1>an incredible comedian, actor, writer, television show creator, icon of

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<v Speaker 1>British panel shows, an author of several books. But his

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<v Speaker 1>latest book, Unruly, The Ridiculous History of England's Kings and Queens,

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<v Speaker 1>is now out in paperback. If you're a listener of

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<v Speaker 1>this podcast, you will absolutely love this book. It's such

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<v Speaker 1>a phenomenal analysis not only of the early kings and

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<v Speaker 1>queens of England, starting from before William the First, which

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<v Speaker 1>I thought was a brilliant decision, but an analysis really

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<v Speaker 1>of what our historical understanding of those kings says about

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<v Speaker 1>British culture and human culture as a whole. David, thank

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<v Speaker 1>you so much for joining me.

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<v Speaker 2>No, not at all, thank you for having me. Thank

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<v Speaker 2>you for that lovely introduction.

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<v Speaker 1>Just to start. What inspired you to write a book

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<v Speaker 1>about the British monarchy?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, it was definitely partly the global pandemic in that

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<v Speaker 2>I was sitting around doing nothing and I sort of

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<v Speaker 2>went through a long period of frustration at all of

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<v Speaker 2>the books and screenplays that everyone else seemed to be

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<v Speaker 2>using their time to write while I sat there and

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<v Speaker 2>miserably refreshed the BBC news page and the hope of

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<v Speaker 2>some sign of an end to it all. And then finally,

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<v Speaker 2>when there was some sign of an end to it all,

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<v Speaker 2>I found something to do, which was to initially sit

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<v Speaker 2>down and start typing about how the arrival of COVID

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<v Speaker 2>felt a bit like the arrival of the Vikings must

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<v Speaker 2>have felt to the Anglo Saxons, as in, it was

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<v Speaker 2>just something that came out of the blue and was

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<v Speaker 2>a real pain for everyone. Was you know, literal and

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<v Speaker 2>metaphorical pain ensued. So I literally started typing that chapter.

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<v Speaker 2>I think because of that, you know, the weirdness of

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<v Speaker 2>cod and the suddenness, do you do think more about

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<v Speaker 2>history because you think, oh my god, this is a

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<v Speaker 2>bit of it that's happening. It's just happening suddenly to me,

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<v Speaker 2>and it's not out of a trend. Really. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>obviously people relentlessly talk about how it was out of

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<v Speaker 2>a trend and we should have seen it coming and

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<v Speaker 2>why wasn't there more ppe in all the covers et cetera,

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<v Speaker 2>et cetera. But they weren't saying it beforehand, or if

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<v Speaker 2>they were, no one was listening, So I sort of

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<v Speaker 2>I think broadly speaking, no one saw it coming. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>the Anglo Saxons thought that they should have seen the

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<v Speaker 2>vikings coming by, you know, and it was all because

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<v Speaker 2>they hadn't prayed enough. And there's really no evidence of

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<v Speaker 2>a connection between their lack of praying and the arrival

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<v Speaker 2>of Norse warriors. But you know, you start thinking about

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<v Speaker 2>your powerlessness in the universe, and that's how a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of people in the Middle Ages felt all the time,

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<v Speaker 2>because they really didn't know what the hell was going on.

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<v Speaker 2>So it was a natural thing to start typing about.

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<v Speaker 2>And then it was great that I just had that

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<v Speaker 2>freedom for a few months, just to play around with

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<v Speaker 2>it and find a tone voice that I hope is

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<v Speaker 2>funny for talking about the past in a not in

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<v Speaker 2>a detailed way, but in a way that gives an

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<v Speaker 2>overview for people who wish they had more of an

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<v Speaker 2>overview of in the case of my book, The Kings

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<v Speaker 2>and Queens of England. So yes, by the time we

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<v Speaker 2>were allowed to go out and get a cafes again,

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<v Speaker 2>I'd written a third of it, and that I was

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<v Speaker 2>bound to finish it or that third would have been wasted.

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<v Speaker 2>I tend to write another book, but I'm not quite

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<v Speaker 2>sure how I'll do it without a pandemic.

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<v Speaker 1>Well I was going to say, well, we would all

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<v Speaker 1>hope for that, but let's just say if there was

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<v Speaker 1>another pandemic, that would be the slight silver lining.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, thank you.

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<v Speaker 1>Where did you begin in your historical research? Obviously there

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<v Speaker 1>you cover a wide swath of history. What was sort

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<v Speaker 1>of your process like of finding sources or reading?

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<v Speaker 2>Genuinely? I started writing about what I knew about already

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<v Speaker 2>and to try and find a funny way through it.

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<v Speaker 2>And then when i'd sort of realized, actually I've got

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<v Speaker 2>to a point I don't know what happened now, then

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<v Speaker 2>I've just read around it and I can't pretend to

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<v Speaker 2>have gone back to primary sources in any way. But

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<v Speaker 2>I just read some books about it and got my

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<v Speaker 2>sense of what was vaguely going on, and tried to

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<v Speaker 2>re express it in a way that's comic and informative.

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<v Speaker 2>And I see myself as a comedian, not a historian.

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<v Speaker 2>And I thought, the first thing the book needs to

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<v Speaker 2>be if at all possible is amusing, and if it

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<v Speaker 2>can be amusing through things that are true and in

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<v Speaker 2>my view sort of historically matter, then that would be

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<v Speaker 2>hopefully a rewarding read rather than taking you know, obviously,

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<v Speaker 2>you can find funny things in history in terms of

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<v Speaker 2>broadly the disgustingness of life, then the lack of plumbing,

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<v Speaker 2>the weird superstitions.

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<v Speaker 1>You can do that, the existence of King Henry the Eighth.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, exactly. Or you can try and do what I

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<v Speaker 2>hope I've done, at least partly, is take the thing

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<v Speaker 2>that were important and see the funny side of that.

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<v Speaker 2>And that doesn't mean, because I'm a big believer that

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<v Speaker 2>anything that matters is looked at in a certain way funny,

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<v Speaker 2>and if it doesn't matter, it's never that funny. The

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<v Speaker 2>best comedies have always been about things that really matter,

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<v Speaker 2>you know. The heart of the Simpsons is a story

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<v Speaker 2>of disappointment and a failed dream and the sort of

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, there's a great line in it I think that,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, be the cause of an answer to all

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<v Speaker 2>of life's problem and in that you sort of there's

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<v Speaker 2>a sort of deep truth about human disappointment that makes

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<v Speaker 2>that show much funnier. Than if it was just you know,

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<v Speaker 2>funny about silly things.

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<v Speaker 1>They should put that on the Emmy campaigns. I haven't

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<v Speaker 1>seen that on the billboards.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I think the greatest truth comes through comedy, I think,

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<v Speaker 2>and I you know someone who's tried to say funny

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<v Speaker 2>things about the news that various in my career. I thought, well,

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<v Speaker 2>I'll try that about what was the news? Which is history.

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<v Speaker 1>One thing that I love about this book that I

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<v Speaker 1>mentioned briefly in the introduction is that you choose to

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<v Speaker 1>start earlier than William the First, than William the Conqueror,

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<v Speaker 1>where the counting sort of begins, But there's so much

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<v Speaker 1>British English history that happens before then. And particularly I

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<v Speaker 1>loved your analysis of King Arthur. Can you talk a

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<v Speaker 1>little bit about how the myth of King Arthur sort

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<v Speaker 1>of is understood in modern day Britain.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, King Arthur is probably the most famous king in

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<v Speaker 2>some ways. It's probably more programs made about Henry the

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<v Speaker 2>Eighth these days, but he is an incredibly famous figure,

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<v Speaker 2>the original good King who reigned at some point after

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<v Speaker 2>the Romans had left and before the Anglo Saxons arrived,

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<v Speaker 2>and a wonderful, very very pure and Christian Kingdom. And

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<v Speaker 2>this is a lovely idea lent on an in Jul

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<v Speaker 2>for centuries by other kings, by people who were sad

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<v Speaker 2>that their king wasn't better and they thought, if only

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<v Speaker 2>he could have been more like good old King Arthur was.

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<v Speaker 2>And you know, it has been dramatized for television and

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<v Speaker 2>in films, and it's a really lovely idea. The only

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<v Speaker 2>problem is there is absolutely zero evidence that he existed

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<v Speaker 2>at all, and you know, he just didn't. It's just

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<v Speaker 2>not possible. I mean, he looks like a medieval king

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<v Speaker 2>in all the pictures, and that's because the key time

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<v Speaker 2>of imagining and enjoying imagining him was the Middle Ages,

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<v Speaker 2>and they didn't really think about whether people wore the

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<v Speaker 2>same clothes hundreds of years earlier as they did. So

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<v Speaker 2>that's a bit of a clue. Why would there be

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<v Speaker 2>this sudden basically totally medieval king, a bit like Edward

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<v Speaker 2>the First or Edward the Third cropping up soon after

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<v Speaker 2>the last toga just rotted and before the first boat

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<v Speaker 2>comes over from Denmark. It just doesn't add up. And

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<v Speaker 2>the monks of Glastonbury Abbey, who were you know, nothing

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<v Speaker 2>if not entrepreneurial created a grave for King Arthur and

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<v Speaker 2>his queen, and everyone thought, well, he must have existed,

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<v Speaker 2>he's got a grave, but no, it's you know, you

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<v Speaker 2>could say the same about Mickey Mouse and his castle.

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<v Speaker 2>So yes, King Arthur is a lovely idea, but he

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<v Speaker 2>didn't exist, but very very important if you're writing a

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<v Speaker 2>book about kings because that's the template. That's what everyone

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<v Speaker 2>was saying a king should be. And they didn't. And

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<v Speaker 2>they weren't great many periods of the past, and we're

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<v Speaker 2>not necessarily that great at it now. Even they weren't

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<v Speaker 2>great at hoping for a better future. What they could do, though,

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<v Speaker 2>is hark back to a better past. But they didn't

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<v Speaker 2>necessarily really know what the past was like, so they

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<v Speaker 2>sort of invented a utopian past in King Arthur, or

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<v Speaker 2>certainly utopian when it comes to kingship, and decided that's

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<v Speaker 2>what they would hark back to.

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<v Speaker 1>I found that idea in your book very striking, with

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of modern parallels of how motivating it is

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<v Speaker 1>for people to harken back to an imaginary past, whether

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<v Speaker 1>or not that past actually existed.

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<v Speaker 2>Well exactly, and our views are memories of the past

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<v Speaker 2>that you know, with the issue of making America great

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<v Speaker 2>again is hanging over this conversation. So I'm just going

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<v Speaker 2>to say that is an attempt to harp back to

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<v Speaker 2>something in people's minds, and whether or not that thing

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<v Speaker 2>ever existed is well certainly unproved either way. It was

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<v Speaker 2>a different world in all of the West in the

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen fifties and sixties, and in many ways it was

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<v Speaker 2>a worse world, but in some ways it was a

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<v Speaker 2>better world. Obviously, there are people who want to cherry

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<v Speaker 2>pick elements of the past and say, let's get back

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<v Speaker 2>to that it was. It was better. One of the

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<v Speaker 2>things that was better for us all, of course, is

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<v Speaker 2>that we were younger, so you know, our backs hurt

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<v Speaker 2>a bit less, you know, our these were less troublesome,

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<v Speaker 2>Our death was further away, and you can't actually get

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<v Speaker 2>back to that.

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<v Speaker 1>Our parents weren't telling us about all the bad things

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<v Speaker 1>happening on the news, and movies were better because we,

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<v Speaker 1>of course weren't watching them with the critical eye.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, quite so, you know, you can't help Nostalgia is

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<v Speaker 2>a powerful force. And even that, you know, it's possible

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<v Speaker 2>to feel nostalgia even for great misery. In one's own past,

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<v Speaker 2>and that's just because it's gone now and will never

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<v Speaker 2>be recaptured, so it has a kind of rose tinted aura.

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<v Speaker 1>One idea that I love in this book is the

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<v Speaker 1>notion that the for lack of a better phrase, da

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<v Speaker 1>Vinci codification of trying to find the real King Arthur

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<v Speaker 1>is ultimately a meaningless exercise, because even if you found

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<v Speaker 1>a man who happened to be called Arthur, he wouldn't

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<v Speaker 1>be the king that he became in popular legend.

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<v Speaker 2>Well know exactly. And people are so desperate for King

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<v Speaker 2>Arthur to have existed, you know, understandably it would be

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<v Speaker 2>really cool that they seem willing to drop almost every

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<v Speaker 2>meaningful attribute I'd say, including his name. Maybe he was

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<v Speaker 2>based on some major chieftain who ruled the Britons, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>soon after the Legions left and the and the Anglo

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<v Speaker 2>Saxons arrived and he said, well, yes, okay. And obviously

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<v Speaker 2>there were powerful figures then because people lived, and so

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<v Speaker 2>there will have been people bossing them around. That's the

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<v Speaker 2>way of the world. But in what meaningful way are

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<v Speaker 2>any of them King Arthur? And yes, I suppose King

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<v Speaker 2>Arthur is based on them, because that's the time in

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<v Speaker 2>history that he's supposedly sort of cited. But unless any

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<v Speaker 2>of these people were in any way, you know, good,

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<v Speaker 2>in the in the same ways as King Arthur, then

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<v Speaker 2>the basing him on them is not very meaningful.

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<v Speaker 1>Who in your research of this book, which goes from

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<v Speaker 1>the imaginer King Arthur up until Elizabeth, I would you

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<v Speaker 1>say is the most underrated king that you came across.

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<v Speaker 2>I've got a soft spot for Henry the first, and

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<v Speaker 2>he's certainly not very highly rated at the time. I

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<v Speaker 2>don't suppose he felt underrated. He was, you know, everybody

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<v Speaker 2>said he was a very successful king, but I think

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<v Speaker 2>he's largely forgotten now. And the reason he interests me

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<v Speaker 2>is that he feels very professional, and you sort of

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<v Speaker 2>feel that the government under him was he had an interest,

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<v Speaker 2>not necessarily in the priorities that modern government have, but

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<v Speaker 2>he wanted order. He wanted expansion of his own realm,

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<v Speaker 2>but sort of to a limited extent. He wasn't going

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<v Speaker 2>mad for that. He wanted an orderly succession to the

0:12:35.720 --> 0:12:38.840
<v Speaker 2>next generation. He very much didn't get that, but he

0:12:38.880 --> 0:12:42.640
<v Speaker 2>really worked at it. So you sort of think that

0:12:42.640 --> 0:12:45.320
<v Speaker 2>that's not that nightmarish for the people at the time.

0:12:45.360 --> 0:12:47.760
<v Speaker 2>If you've got a king like that, then that is

0:12:47.920 --> 0:12:51.920
<v Speaker 2>reasonably competent government. And that may sound like faint praise,

0:12:52.200 --> 0:12:55.080
<v Speaker 2>but in the context of the Middle Ages, it isn't

0:12:55.160 --> 0:12:58.240
<v Speaker 2>faint praise. It's high praise, because the standard of government

0:12:58.280 --> 0:13:01.199
<v Speaker 2>was dreadful. So I think Henry, I think if all

0:13:01.200 --> 0:13:03.839
<v Speaker 2>the kings had been like Henry the first, then being

0:13:03.880 --> 0:13:07.040
<v Speaker 2>a medieval peasant would have been forty percent more pleasant

0:13:07.440 --> 0:13:10.040
<v Speaker 2>than it actually turned out to be. So yeah, I'll

0:13:10.040 --> 0:13:11.079
<v Speaker 2>put in a word for him.

0:13:11.640 --> 0:13:15.800
<v Speaker 1>I do love the emphasis over the book of predictability

0:13:15.880 --> 0:13:20.360
<v Speaker 1>and the value of stability and understanding what's coming next,

0:13:20.440 --> 0:13:23.120
<v Speaker 1>and whether that is knowing which son is going to

0:13:23.160 --> 0:13:25.920
<v Speaker 1>become king next, or knowing that you're not going to

0:13:25.960 --> 0:13:28.920
<v Speaker 1>go to war and lose all your holdings. In Normandy,

0:13:29.320 --> 0:13:34.200
<v Speaker 1>predictability feels like a sort of undersung factor in what

0:13:34.320 --> 0:13:37.400
<v Speaker 1>makes a good king. It's not usually as glamorous in

0:13:37.440 --> 0:13:41.360
<v Speaker 1>a conversation when compared to war or conquering or crusades.

0:13:41.960 --> 0:13:44.679
<v Speaker 2>Basically, they knew at the time, as far as I

0:13:44.720 --> 0:13:47.679
<v Speaker 2>can tell, that there was no amount of good stuff

0:13:47.760 --> 0:13:51.199
<v Speaker 2>that any individual ruler could do that was as bad

0:13:51.559 --> 0:13:55.959
<v Speaker 2>as what could go wrong if there was a disputed succession,

0:13:56.320 --> 0:13:59.280
<v Speaker 2>and they were very much happened. The whole principle of

0:13:59.360 --> 0:14:02.480
<v Speaker 2>kingship is saying, never mind how good the ruler is,

0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:05.920
<v Speaker 2>let's just know who it is. Because when we don't

0:14:05.960 --> 0:14:09.760
<v Speaker 2>know who it is, that civil war and the very

0:14:09.840 --> 0:14:12.960
<v Speaker 2>basic stuff that we expect from our government, stopping us

0:14:13.000 --> 0:14:16.600
<v Speaker 2>being invaded, maybe a bit of help if the crops fail,

0:14:17.120 --> 0:14:20.920
<v Speaker 2>you know, low level law and order that will collapse

0:14:21.280 --> 0:14:23.640
<v Speaker 2>if we don't know who the king is, and even

0:14:23.800 --> 0:14:28.400
<v Speaker 2>quite bad kings might keep those basic services limping along.

0:14:29.040 --> 0:14:31.760
<v Speaker 2>So by saying, and in the early part of the book,

0:14:31.960 --> 0:14:35.960
<v Speaker 2>the Anglo Saxons, they didn't have the principle of primogeniture,

0:14:36.040 --> 0:14:39.560
<v Speaker 2>so it wasn't necessarily the eldest son who was supposed

0:14:39.560 --> 0:14:43.120
<v Speaker 2>to succeed. So quite often when an Anglo Saxon king died,

0:14:43.280 --> 0:14:46.720
<v Speaker 2>there was a mini civil war while his sons fought

0:14:46.760 --> 0:14:48.960
<v Speaker 2>it out for the who is going to run the kingdom?

0:14:49.040 --> 0:14:53.080
<v Speaker 2>And that's actually a marginally more meritocratic system you get

0:14:53.080 --> 0:14:56.440
<v Speaker 2>the more effective warrior king tends to be the one

0:14:56.440 --> 0:15:01.960
<v Speaker 2>that prevails. But that element of meritocracy was demonstrably not

0:15:02.160 --> 0:15:05.760
<v Speaker 2>worth it for the amount of fighting and killing that

0:15:05.760 --> 0:15:09.640
<v Speaker 2>that system involved. You know, now, in a functioning democracy

0:15:09.840 --> 0:15:14.120
<v Speaker 2>you get fingers crossed an orderly succession when one government

0:15:14.200 --> 0:15:17.600
<v Speaker 2>replaces the other. And that's a really important part of

0:15:17.640 --> 0:15:20.320
<v Speaker 2>what makes a democracy work, because if you don't have that,

0:15:20.480 --> 0:15:24.520
<v Speaker 2>you're better off just not changing the government ever, sticking

0:15:24.560 --> 0:15:27.440
<v Speaker 2>with who you've got, and then saying as clearly as

0:15:27.440 --> 0:15:30.840
<v Speaker 2>possible in advance, and when he dies, it'll be his son,

0:15:31.120 --> 0:15:34.040
<v Speaker 2>and please may it just continue on this even keel

0:15:34.080 --> 0:15:36.680
<v Speaker 2>for as long as possible. Because the worst things that

0:15:36.760 --> 0:15:39.560
<v Speaker 2>happened in the Middle Ages weren't the things the king did.

0:15:39.840 --> 0:15:42.240
<v Speaker 2>It was the times no one knew who the king

0:15:42.520 --> 0:15:45.720
<v Speaker 2>was or couldn't agree on that. And that's happened a

0:15:45.720 --> 0:15:49.000
<v Speaker 2>lot in the Anglo saxon Araa with no primar geniture established.

0:15:49.360 --> 0:15:52.280
<v Speaker 2>It happened when Henry the first died and he wanted

0:15:52.280 --> 0:15:56.800
<v Speaker 2>his daughter to succeed him. That did not go down

0:15:56.880 --> 0:16:00.280
<v Speaker 2>well at the time, a non house of the dragon, right, yeah, yes,

0:16:00.320 --> 0:16:02.480
<v Speaker 2>And you know that was so there was there was

0:16:02.880 --> 0:16:07.800
<v Speaker 2>absolute you know, hellish it's known unfashionably now, but it's

0:16:07.840 --> 0:16:11.800
<v Speaker 2>known as the anarchy traditionally that period. And that's a

0:16:11.960 --> 0:16:15.080
<v Speaker 2>hint that it wasn't nice the Wars of the Roses

0:16:15.760 --> 0:16:18.240
<v Speaker 2>a few hundred years later. That's a long period of

0:16:18.800 --> 0:16:21.880
<v Speaker 2>lack of clarity as to who the king was. That

0:16:22.080 --> 0:16:23.920
<v Speaker 2>was the lesson of the age. But every so often

0:16:23.920 --> 0:16:27.800
<v Speaker 2>they broke their own rules. So Richard the Second absolutely

0:16:27.920 --> 0:16:33.280
<v Speaker 2>terrible king, but undoubtedly the rightful king. Nobody ever really

0:16:33.320 --> 0:16:37.240
<v Speaker 2>disputed his right to rule, however awful his conduct was.

0:16:37.560 --> 0:16:39.680
<v Speaker 2>But in the end he was so bad they couldn't

0:16:39.720 --> 0:16:43.000
<v Speaker 2>stand it, and the barons got rid of him, and

0:16:43.080 --> 0:16:46.640
<v Speaker 2>he basically killed him or allowed him to die and

0:16:46.920 --> 0:16:49.720
<v Speaker 2>put another guy on the throne who was in every

0:16:49.760 --> 0:16:52.320
<v Speaker 2>way more competent, and they all liked him, and you know,

0:16:52.360 --> 0:16:55.400
<v Speaker 2>he'll be much better, but they all felt they'd done wrong.

0:16:56.360 --> 0:16:58.400
<v Speaker 2>The next king was Henry the Fourth. He had a

0:16:58.480 --> 0:17:03.600
<v Speaker 2>sort of very unst stable, unhappy reign, but basically thereon

0:17:04.680 --> 0:17:08.879
<v Speaker 2>that the office of king was never properly strong again,

0:17:09.560 --> 0:17:13.680
<v Speaker 2>and there was a lot more fighting over who would

0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:17.879
<v Speaker 2>be in charge after that, and so fundamentally it wasn't

0:17:17.880 --> 0:17:20.440
<v Speaker 2>worth it. They should have stuck with Richard the scond

0:17:20.520 --> 0:17:22.760
<v Speaker 2>until he died, and that you know, there would have

0:17:22.760 --> 0:17:25.440
<v Speaker 2>been less horribleness if they had. But at the time,

0:17:25.480 --> 0:17:28.639
<v Speaker 2>they thought, well, he just can't carry on to me

0:17:28.880 --> 0:17:30.639
<v Speaker 2>because it's a long time ago, and all of the

0:17:30.680 --> 0:17:34.920
<v Speaker 2>pain caused just as long you know, has receded well

0:17:34.960 --> 0:17:39.840
<v Speaker 2>into the background. I find it funny. I find that quandary.

0:17:39.840 --> 0:17:44.480
<v Speaker 2>They're relentlessly in that, the aristocrats of sort of stability

0:17:44.600 --> 0:17:48.160
<v Speaker 2>versus competence. I find that amusing, amusing to see them

0:17:48.160 --> 0:17:52.840
<v Speaker 2>struggle with it. Amusing how they've invented collectively this thing

0:17:53.240 --> 0:17:57.440
<v Speaker 2>kingship that they claim God is into So they give

0:17:57.520 --> 0:17:59.920
<v Speaker 2>the rule of the sort of endorsement of the Almighty.

0:18:00.440 --> 0:18:02.800
<v Speaker 2>That was a clever idea to have cooked up. But

0:18:02.800 --> 0:18:06.200
<v Speaker 2>then the problem is, what if you have an absolute idiot,

0:18:07.240 --> 0:18:10.840
<v Speaker 2>you know, slash murderous maniac who you're now saying is

0:18:10.960 --> 0:18:14.119
<v Speaker 2>endorsed by God. What do you do about that? And

0:18:14.160 --> 0:18:17.080
<v Speaker 2>should you just do nothing, you know, hope it gets better,

0:18:17.200 --> 0:18:19.400
<v Speaker 2>wait till he dies? Should you try and get rid

0:18:19.440 --> 0:18:22.440
<v Speaker 2>of him? But then what are you saying? What's the system?

0:18:22.520 --> 0:18:22.720
<v Speaker 1>Then?

0:18:23.560 --> 0:18:26.280
<v Speaker 2>I think the other thing that we forget is that

0:18:26.600 --> 0:18:29.880
<v Speaker 2>they really bought into this. It might have been invented

0:18:29.880 --> 0:18:31.919
<v Speaker 2>in the Middle Ages, the notion of kingship, but they

0:18:31.920 --> 0:18:34.399
<v Speaker 2>didn't feel that they'd invented it. They thought it was

0:18:34.440 --> 0:18:39.119
<v Speaker 2>something fundamental and natural and genuinely ordained by God. So

0:18:39.200 --> 0:18:42.040
<v Speaker 2>as soon as they undermine it, they feel have we

0:18:42.119 --> 0:18:45.320
<v Speaker 2>committed a terrible sin? And if they don't feel like that,

0:18:45.400 --> 0:18:48.560
<v Speaker 2>they're just sort of rudderless in the universe, saying, well,

0:18:48.960 --> 0:18:51.760
<v Speaker 2>who's supposed to look after us? Who's supposed to say

0:18:51.800 --> 0:18:56.480
<v Speaker 2>what's what? And we're quite used to the notion of atheism.

0:18:56.880 --> 0:18:59.159
<v Speaker 2>Now there are a lot of atheists, and there's no

0:18:59.200 --> 0:19:02.960
<v Speaker 2>one who hasn't heard of the idea. So we've all

0:19:03.040 --> 0:19:05.640
<v Speaker 2>contemplated that feeling that what if there is no order

0:19:05.640 --> 0:19:08.560
<v Speaker 2>to the universe, there is no big beardy guy in

0:19:08.680 --> 0:19:11.400
<v Speaker 2>charge making sure we'll all be okay. And so even

0:19:11.440 --> 0:19:15.200
<v Speaker 2>if we do decide we're religious, and it's a sort

0:19:15.240 --> 0:19:18.119
<v Speaker 2>of choice, in those days, it wasn't a choice. They

0:19:18.160 --> 0:19:20.359
<v Speaker 2>were that they were told it was true in the

0:19:20.359 --> 0:19:23.360
<v Speaker 2>same way we're told how to wire a plug, and

0:19:23.840 --> 0:19:26.040
<v Speaker 2>that must have been very, very comforting. And the idea

0:19:26.080 --> 0:19:29.840
<v Speaker 2>of kingship was fundamentally linked to that. So as soon

0:19:29.880 --> 0:19:32.000
<v Speaker 2>as the king is bad, as soon as they get

0:19:32.080 --> 0:19:35.040
<v Speaker 2>rid of a king, then their whole notion of the

0:19:35.119 --> 0:19:38.119
<v Speaker 2>universe is shaken. As if they suddenly discover that the

0:19:38.720 --> 0:19:41.000
<v Speaker 2>you know, the solar system isn't as we believe it

0:19:41.040 --> 0:19:41.240
<v Speaker 2>to be.

0:19:41.720 --> 0:19:44.359
<v Speaker 1>I mean, there's that idea where if the king isn't

0:19:44.560 --> 0:19:48.040
<v Speaker 1>chosen by God, then it's just a man in a

0:19:48.080 --> 0:19:51.560
<v Speaker 1>gold hat, and we've we've created all of these institutions

0:19:51.640 --> 0:19:54.840
<v Speaker 1>around him that are artificial and ultimately meaningless. You know,

0:19:54.960 --> 0:19:58.760
<v Speaker 1>hundreds of people bringing him his breakfast and organizing his

0:19:59.119 --> 0:20:02.119
<v Speaker 1>jousts and every that goes into kingship. What is it

0:20:02.160 --> 0:20:05.600
<v Speaker 1>all for if it's not God anointing this person as

0:20:05.960 --> 0:20:07.040
<v Speaker 1>the leader of all of us.

0:20:07.560 --> 0:20:11.880
<v Speaker 2>Exactly a tremendous comfort come from it, and the sort

0:20:11.920 --> 0:20:15.359
<v Speaker 2>of duty to this figure, and sort of trying to say, well,

0:20:15.400 --> 0:20:17.840
<v Speaker 2>you know, the Lord moves in mysterious ways, so the

0:20:17.960 --> 0:20:20.320
<v Speaker 2>king may seem like a maniac, but maybe this is

0:20:20.640 --> 0:20:23.680
<v Speaker 2>all going to come good in the end. And throughout

0:20:23.680 --> 0:20:26.880
<v Speaker 2>my book you see people try and shore up that idea,

0:20:27.000 --> 0:20:30.000
<v Speaker 2>and you see them confront it, and it doesn't really

0:20:30.000 --> 0:20:33.240
<v Speaker 2>come to any final conclusion. But at the end there's

0:20:33.280 --> 0:20:36.800
<v Speaker 2>still a sovereign on the throne claiming that they rule

0:20:36.880 --> 0:20:40.320
<v Speaker 2>by divine sanction. I think the idea is less brought

0:20:40.359 --> 0:20:42.359
<v Speaker 2>into by the nobleman then than it had been a

0:20:42.359 --> 0:20:44.600
<v Speaker 2>few hundred years earlier. But they're still going with it.

0:20:45.080 --> 0:20:48.359
<v Speaker 2>But there is also something called a parliament sort of

0:20:48.359 --> 0:20:51.639
<v Speaker 2>slightly reigning in the monarchs, and that obviously is a

0:20:51.720 --> 0:20:55.280
<v Speaker 2>prelude to the next chapter of English and British history

0:20:55.600 --> 0:20:58.600
<v Speaker 2>when the parliament and the king end up fighting a war.

0:20:58.960 --> 0:21:02.159
<v Speaker 2>But you could sort of see that that was inevitable

0:21:02.200 --> 0:21:04.600
<v Speaker 2>because they were fundamentally always going to come to blows.

0:21:04.920 --> 0:21:08.120
<v Speaker 1>If Henry the First is sort of the unsung king

0:21:08.520 --> 0:21:11.560
<v Speaker 1>or an underrated king in British history, who would you

0:21:11.600 --> 0:21:13.240
<v Speaker 1>say is the most overrated king?

0:21:14.359 --> 0:21:17.760
<v Speaker 2>Henry the Fifth, I think is probably the most overrated.

0:21:18.119 --> 0:21:20.240
<v Speaker 1>He had that one buzzy battle.

0:21:19.960 --> 0:21:25.399
<v Speaker 2>Though amazing battle Agincourps, definitely won against the odds, and he,

0:21:25.680 --> 0:21:27.760
<v Speaker 2>by the end of his reign was you know, the

0:21:27.800 --> 0:21:31.760
<v Speaker 2>heir to the French throne as well as King of England,

0:21:31.800 --> 0:21:34.000
<v Speaker 2>and so you know, on his own terms he was

0:21:34.440 --> 0:21:38.760
<v Speaker 2>spectacularly successful. That's where I sort of play my comedian's

0:21:38.840 --> 0:21:41.600
<v Speaker 2>card and say I'm allowed to take a step back

0:21:42.000 --> 0:21:45.760
<v Speaker 2>from medieval kingship and say that the hundreds of years

0:21:45.840 --> 0:21:49.760
<v Speaker 2>of English kings desperately trying also to be kings of France.

0:21:50.359 --> 0:21:58.000
<v Speaker 2>Was an enormous waste of energy, money, lives, and effort,

0:21:58.880 --> 0:22:02.600
<v Speaker 2>and it was pointless. It was the wrong policy. The

0:22:02.760 --> 0:22:04.800
<v Speaker 2>King of England will never be the King of France

0:22:04.840 --> 0:22:06.240
<v Speaker 2>as well. The King of France will never be the

0:22:06.280 --> 0:22:09.159
<v Speaker 2>King of England as well. It was just unworkable. But

0:22:09.320 --> 0:22:13.600
<v Speaker 2>yet English kings for hundreds of years, their main focus

0:22:13.680 --> 0:22:17.800
<v Speaker 2>was raising money to raise troops to go over to

0:22:17.840 --> 0:22:21.840
<v Speaker 2>fight battles in France, with horrendous consequences for the people

0:22:21.920 --> 0:22:24.680
<v Speaker 2>trying to just live in France, and in the end

0:22:24.760 --> 0:22:28.760
<v Speaker 2>they usually failed. There are a few examples of that.

0:22:28.960 --> 0:22:32.960
<v Speaker 2>You know. English history has sort of always cherished of

0:22:33.000 --> 0:22:36.800
<v Speaker 2>these against the odds victories, with the brave English archers

0:22:36.800 --> 0:22:40.080
<v Speaker 2>defeating larger numbers of French knights. But you take a

0:22:40.080 --> 0:22:42.439
<v Speaker 2>step back and what was the point in all of that.

0:22:42.960 --> 0:22:45.639
<v Speaker 2>The King of England never became King of France, and

0:22:45.680 --> 0:22:48.600
<v Speaker 2>it wouldn't have been good if they had. It was

0:22:48.840 --> 0:22:52.159
<v Speaker 2>just a waste of time and blood and energy. And

0:22:52.200 --> 0:22:54.119
<v Speaker 2>it's one of the things I like about Henry the

0:22:54.160 --> 0:22:57.080
<v Speaker 2>first is that he didn't really try any of that.

0:22:57.440 --> 0:23:00.000
<v Speaker 2>He was the Duke of Normandy. He wanted control of Normandy.

0:23:00.760 --> 0:23:03.800
<v Speaker 2>He'd like control of some other bits around Normandy if possible.

0:23:03.840 --> 0:23:07.440
<v Speaker 2>But he didn't have any ridiculous ideas about also being

0:23:07.720 --> 0:23:10.480
<v Speaker 2>king of France like Henry the fifth and Edward the

0:23:10.520 --> 0:23:13.200
<v Speaker 2>Third did, or being say, like Henry the eighth did,

0:23:13.240 --> 0:23:17.320
<v Speaker 2>being some sort of emperor or whatever. He knew his place.

0:23:17.680 --> 0:23:22.120
<v Speaker 2>He had reasonable ambitions for a king of his scale,

0:23:22.560 --> 0:23:25.399
<v Speaker 2>and that caused a lot less suffering. Henry the fifth

0:23:25.520 --> 0:23:30.520
<v Speaker 2>was a maniac fueled by sort of religious fervor. Very

0:23:30.560 --> 0:23:34.240
<v Speaker 2>successful militarily, but what is the point in all of

0:23:34.280 --> 0:23:38.119
<v Speaker 2>that energy and all of that killing of poor French

0:23:38.240 --> 0:23:40.359
<v Speaker 2>noblemen while they were wrapped up in armor.

0:23:40.960 --> 0:23:44.239
<v Speaker 1>That's a fantastic reed. I also, I think one of

0:23:44.280 --> 0:23:48.199
<v Speaker 1>the most controversial kings, and controversial in the sense that

0:23:48.240 --> 0:23:51.600
<v Speaker 1>people have very very strong opinions on both sides of

0:23:51.640 --> 0:23:56.159
<v Speaker 1>the issue, is Richard, because there are people who have

0:23:56.760 --> 0:24:00.399
<v Speaker 1>very strong feelings are what are your feelings on Richard

0:24:00.400 --> 0:24:00.720
<v Speaker 1>the Third?

0:24:00.960 --> 0:24:03.840
<v Speaker 2>Well, my feeling I take the conventional line on Richard

0:24:03.840 --> 0:24:07.600
<v Speaker 2>the Third, which is that he is overwhelmingly the most

0:24:07.760 --> 0:24:10.720
<v Speaker 2>likely person to have caused the deaths of his nephews,

0:24:10.760 --> 0:24:13.320
<v Speaker 2>the princes in the Tower. That's the key point of

0:24:13.359 --> 0:24:16.520
<v Speaker 2>controversy over Richard the third. He definitely took the throne,

0:24:17.240 --> 0:24:19.800
<v Speaker 2>you know, usurped the throne from his nephew, who was

0:24:19.840 --> 0:24:21.760
<v Speaker 2>referred to as end of the fifth, although he wasn't

0:24:21.800 --> 0:24:25.520
<v Speaker 2>really meaningfully ever a king, but he definitely usurped the throne.

0:24:25.800 --> 0:24:28.680
<v Speaker 2>But obviously plenty of people in that, including Henry the First.

0:24:29.000 --> 0:24:32.080
<v Speaker 2>That doesn't necessarily make you villainous in the context of

0:24:32.480 --> 0:24:36.600
<v Speaker 2>English kingship, but it's also he has always been accused

0:24:37.000 --> 0:24:39.439
<v Speaker 2>of murdering his nephew edd Of the fifth and his

0:24:39.520 --> 0:24:42.520
<v Speaker 2>brother when they were boys in the Tower of London,

0:24:42.960 --> 0:24:45.440
<v Speaker 2>and you know, either murdering them himself or more likely

0:24:45.480 --> 0:24:50.479
<v Speaker 2>having them murdered. I think he probably did that, and

0:24:50.520 --> 0:24:53.960
<v Speaker 2>that is the conventional historical line. But Richard the Third

0:24:54.000 --> 0:24:57.119
<v Speaker 2>has a lot of fans who think he was, you know,

0:24:57.800 --> 0:25:01.720
<v Speaker 2>unfairly maligned, largely as a delt of Tudor propaganda, because

0:25:01.760 --> 0:25:04.280
<v Speaker 2>after Richard the Third fell there was a regime change

0:25:04.320 --> 0:25:06.440
<v Speaker 2>that Tudor did this. He came in and they had

0:25:06.440 --> 0:25:11.160
<v Speaker 2>to justify them their having taken the throne, and which

0:25:11.200 --> 0:25:13.959
<v Speaker 2>they needed. It needed a lot of justification because they

0:25:14.080 --> 0:25:17.120
<v Speaker 2>definitely weren't heirs to the throne by any of the

0:25:17.200 --> 0:25:21.919
<v Speaker 2>conventions of inheritance, so they needed to cook up a story,

0:25:21.960 --> 0:25:23.760
<v Speaker 2>and the key part of their story was, well, the

0:25:23.840 --> 0:25:26.439
<v Speaker 2>king before was awful, he killed his nephews, he was

0:25:26.480 --> 0:25:29.480
<v Speaker 2>a tyrant, and so you know, obviously you have to

0:25:29.480 --> 0:25:32.480
<v Speaker 2>be suspicious of the things they say about Richard the third.

0:25:33.080 --> 0:25:36.240
<v Speaker 2>But I don't know what else happened to those princes

0:25:36.280 --> 0:25:38.640
<v Speaker 2>because nobody, as far as we know, nobody saw them

0:25:38.800 --> 0:25:41.560
<v Speaker 2>for at least two years before Henry the seventh was

0:25:41.560 --> 0:25:44.919
<v Speaker 2>on the scene. So I don't see that it's plausible

0:25:45.040 --> 0:25:47.240
<v Speaker 2>that they were killed by the Tudors. I think it

0:25:47.280 --> 0:25:49.520
<v Speaker 2>was very likely to have been Richard the third, but

0:25:49.600 --> 0:25:54.560
<v Speaker 2>I'm not saying that's definite. What amuses me is how

0:25:54.840 --> 0:25:58.640
<v Speaker 2>much emotional investment people have in saying, no, Richard there

0:25:58.680 --> 0:26:03.080
<v Speaker 2>was lovely, he was great king, and well, we can't know,

0:26:03.960 --> 0:26:07.560
<v Speaker 2>we can't know for sure. We know the balance of probability.

0:26:07.720 --> 0:26:10.800
<v Speaker 2>We know it's more likely he killed the princes in

0:26:10.840 --> 0:26:12.919
<v Speaker 2>the tower than anyone else, and we sort of just

0:26:12.960 --> 0:26:15.919
<v Speaker 2>have to be satisfied with that. And you can enjoy

0:26:15.920 --> 0:26:19.639
<v Speaker 2>and imagined Richard IID, who is unfairly slantered by the

0:26:19.720 --> 0:26:22.360
<v Speaker 2>tudors if you want to, but you can't tell yourself

0:26:22.359 --> 0:26:24.520
<v Speaker 2>that was definitely the case, just because you find it

0:26:24.600 --> 0:26:25.679
<v Speaker 2>an attractive idea.

0:26:26.240 --> 0:26:28.040
<v Speaker 1>It kind of goes back to what you were saying

0:26:28.080 --> 0:26:32.199
<v Speaker 1>about history being the story that we tell ourselves in

0:26:32.240 --> 0:26:35.560
<v Speaker 1>that it's very fun to imagine that it's a detective

0:26:35.640 --> 0:26:39.200
<v Speaker 1>story that we can solve and not an incredibly messy

0:26:39.359 --> 0:26:42.919
<v Speaker 1>series of complicated people and complicated events that will be

0:26:43.000 --> 0:26:44.320
<v Speaker 1>forever Unknoble.

0:26:44.200 --> 0:26:48.040
<v Speaker 2>Well exactly that all we have is the evidence that's

0:26:48.600 --> 0:26:50.679
<v Speaker 2>come down to us and things have been written about it,

0:26:50.720 --> 0:26:55.040
<v Speaker 2>and you know, we're not going to suddenly discover video

0:26:55.119 --> 0:26:59.320
<v Speaker 2>footage of Henry the Seventh killing the young Prince of

0:26:59.359 --> 0:27:02.520
<v Speaker 2>the Fifth. It's just not going to happen. There's always

0:27:02.560 --> 0:27:04.800
<v Speaker 2>going to be a question mark over it. So I thought,

0:27:05.040 --> 0:27:09.159
<v Speaker 2>in my overview, i'll, you know, I'll say what I

0:27:09.160 --> 0:27:12.080
<v Speaker 2>think probably happened, and the reason I think it probably

0:27:12.119 --> 0:27:14.560
<v Speaker 2>went that way, that's what most people think, and that's

0:27:15.400 --> 0:27:18.199
<v Speaker 2>that's the direction most of the evidence points in. But

0:27:19.040 --> 0:27:20.960
<v Speaker 2>I fully accept we can't totally know.

0:27:22.000 --> 0:27:23.720
<v Speaker 1>I don't want to keep you too long, but just

0:27:23.760 --> 0:27:27.160
<v Speaker 1>as we wrap up the conversation, what I love about

0:27:27.160 --> 0:27:29.720
<v Speaker 1>this book is Not only is it an overview of

0:27:29.800 --> 0:27:33.760
<v Speaker 1>the monarchs as they came, but also it fundamentally deepened,

0:27:33.840 --> 0:27:37.600
<v Speaker 1>especially as an American, my understanding of how British people

0:27:37.760 --> 0:27:41.720
<v Speaker 1>see themselves through the monarchy. Is there something you learned

0:27:41.720 --> 0:27:44.919
<v Speaker 1>about British identity or discovered over the course of writing

0:27:44.960 --> 0:27:46.159
<v Speaker 1>this book that surprised you.

0:27:46.840 --> 0:27:49.679
<v Speaker 2>Well, I think the more I thought about it, the

0:27:49.760 --> 0:27:51.720
<v Speaker 2>more I was very careful to say, this is a

0:27:51.760 --> 0:27:54.359
<v Speaker 2>book about the English kings, so it's not about the

0:27:54.359 --> 0:27:57.200
<v Speaker 2>Scottish king. Yes, I apologize, No, no, not at all,

0:27:58.200 --> 0:28:01.679
<v Speaker 2>but I'm sort of more explained. Why I was so

0:28:01.800 --> 0:28:04.760
<v Speaker 2>clear on that partly because I, you know, I Scottish

0:28:04.800 --> 0:28:07.320
<v Speaker 2>history up to sixty you know three is of you know,

0:28:07.480 --> 0:28:12.080
<v Speaker 2>linked but separate thing. Ditto Irish history, and I wasn't

0:28:12.080 --> 0:28:14.639
<v Speaker 2>going to pretend I'd covered them because I hadn't. So

0:28:14.720 --> 0:28:18.560
<v Speaker 2>I'm coming clean. This is just England. Obviously, after the

0:28:18.600 --> 0:28:21.800
<v Speaker 2>period of my book onwards, the monarchy, the same monarchy

0:28:21.840 --> 0:28:25.240
<v Speaker 2>is effectively shared by more parts of the British Isles,

0:28:25.720 --> 0:28:28.439
<v Speaker 2>so it become the story is more unified into a

0:28:28.480 --> 0:28:32.479
<v Speaker 2>story of British history, the divisions within it. Notwithstanding what

0:28:32.560 --> 0:28:36.600
<v Speaker 2>it struck me is that within the United Kingdom and

0:28:36.640 --> 0:28:40.800
<v Speaker 2>the British Isles, the nations that aren't England, Scotland, Wales

0:28:40.920 --> 0:28:45.760
<v Speaker 2>and Ireland have very very strong senses of cultural identity,

0:28:46.280 --> 0:28:49.840
<v Speaker 2>and England doesn't. I don't think so. I think England's

0:28:49.880 --> 0:28:53.280
<v Speaker 2>various sections of England have strong senses of identity Cornwall

0:28:53.400 --> 0:28:58.400
<v Speaker 2>and Yorkshire, and London and Kent, and you know, the

0:28:58.440 --> 0:29:00.720
<v Speaker 2>North of England versus the South of England. These are

0:29:00.760 --> 0:29:04.280
<v Speaker 2>strong senses, but England as a whole doesn't have a

0:29:04.320 --> 0:29:07.680
<v Speaker 2>strong sense of itself as separate from Britain in the

0:29:07.720 --> 0:29:09.200
<v Speaker 2>way Scotland and Wales do.

0:29:09.920 --> 0:29:13.480
<v Speaker 1>To an American, I would say that the English identity

0:29:13.720 --> 0:29:16.600
<v Speaker 1>and correct me if I'm wrong, seems to be exclusively

0:29:17.000 --> 0:29:20.280
<v Speaker 1>bunting and baking in a tent and having a man

0:29:20.320 --> 0:29:22.480
<v Speaker 1>to poke at your bread and tell you if it's

0:29:22.520 --> 0:29:23.360
<v Speaker 1>overproofd or not.

0:29:23.600 --> 0:29:26.920
<v Speaker 2>Well, that certainly is a big part of identity, of

0:29:26.920 --> 0:29:30.280
<v Speaker 2>our identity, but that program, confusingly is not called the

0:29:30.280 --> 0:29:35.000
<v Speaker 2>Great English Bacoff. So we have this issue Englishness and

0:29:35.040 --> 0:29:39.840
<v Speaker 2>Britishness where they're distinct. For Scott's, even the ones that

0:29:40.000 --> 0:29:42.840
<v Speaker 2>don't want Scotland to become an independent country even Scotts

0:29:42.840 --> 0:29:45.280
<v Speaker 2>in favor of the union, still have a strong sense

0:29:45.320 --> 0:29:49.640
<v Speaker 2>of what is different about Scotland from England, What Scotland's

0:29:49.720 --> 0:29:53.680
<v Speaker 2>unique identity within Britain is England I don't think has

0:29:53.760 --> 0:29:57.400
<v Speaker 2>that sense. So England very much turns backward on its

0:29:57.400 --> 0:30:00.000
<v Speaker 2>own history, and at the center of its history is

0:30:00.000 --> 0:30:02.920
<v Speaker 2>it's monarchy. So I think, I say early in the book,

0:30:03.400 --> 0:30:06.320
<v Speaker 2>the monarchy is what England has instead of a sense

0:30:06.360 --> 0:30:10.520
<v Speaker 2>of identity, and that his simplification. And actually there are

0:30:10.560 --> 0:30:14.840
<v Speaker 2>many senses of identity in England, but no real unifying one.

0:30:15.160 --> 0:30:18.320
<v Speaker 2>But the monarchy then becomes a sort of symbol of

0:30:18.480 --> 0:30:22.960
<v Speaker 2>a unifying one, even for those that are against the monarchy.

0:30:23.120 --> 0:30:26.400
<v Speaker 2>If you see what I mean. There it is at

0:30:26.400 --> 0:30:28.479
<v Speaker 2>the center of us. Whether you like it or not,

0:30:28.800 --> 0:30:32.800
<v Speaker 2>it's there. It's why England is so obsessed with its

0:30:32.800 --> 0:30:36.440
<v Speaker 2>own heritage, obsessed with looking back, with nostalgia, sort of

0:30:36.480 --> 0:30:39.600
<v Speaker 2>returning to the point about nostalgia being something that people

0:30:39.600 --> 0:30:42.920
<v Speaker 2>can invest in more will wholeheartedly than a belief in

0:30:42.920 --> 0:30:46.160
<v Speaker 2>a better future. And the Great British Bakeoff is obviously

0:30:46.160 --> 0:30:48.880
<v Speaker 2>part of that, is that its entire esthetic is a

0:30:48.920 --> 0:30:54.200
<v Speaker 2>sort of idealized nineteen fifties village England. But England has

0:30:54.240 --> 0:30:58.120
<v Speaker 2>been largely metropolitan since the early part of the nineteenth century,

0:30:58.320 --> 0:31:03.320
<v Speaker 2>and yet the typical England archetypal England is about villages. Well,

0:31:03.480 --> 0:31:06.240
<v Speaker 2>most people live in big cities in England. We were

0:31:06.240 --> 0:31:11.720
<v Speaker 2>the first industrialized nation, and yet we associate ourselves with

0:31:12.400 --> 0:31:15.560
<v Speaker 2>rural areas well. That's there's something fundamentally absurd about that.

0:31:16.000 --> 0:31:19.000
<v Speaker 2>We should be the most sort of urban focused of

0:31:19.040 --> 0:31:22.120
<v Speaker 2>all the cultures. But no, we think of ourselves as rural,

0:31:22.200 --> 0:31:26.000
<v Speaker 2>even though we're patently not. And the monarchy being at

0:31:26.000 --> 0:31:28.040
<v Speaker 2>the center of that is part of it. And we

0:31:28.480 --> 0:31:31.960
<v Speaker 2>feel safe focusing on our monarchy because these days it's

0:31:32.200 --> 0:31:35.680
<v Speaker 2>harmless and powerless, but nevertheless it's sort of all we've

0:31:35.680 --> 0:31:38.120
<v Speaker 2>got is our sort of badge of belonging.

0:31:39.040 --> 0:31:41.760
<v Speaker 1>And forgive me because this book does stop at Queen

0:31:41.800 --> 0:31:45.080
<v Speaker 1>Elizabeth the First, but I'm curious on your read on

0:31:45.120 --> 0:31:48.840
<v Speaker 1>the modern day monarchy. Do you think that that fundamental

0:31:48.880 --> 0:31:53.040
<v Speaker 1>nostalgia and fondness for a sort of national story is

0:31:53.160 --> 0:31:56.120
<v Speaker 1>enough to keep the monarchy going in the present day.

0:31:57.120 --> 0:32:01.120
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, but I've certainly I have no problem

0:32:01.280 --> 0:32:04.600
<v Speaker 2>with the constitutional monarchy at all, and I think there's

0:32:04.600 --> 0:32:09.840
<v Speaker 2>something quite useful about having the figurehead of the country,

0:32:10.040 --> 0:32:14.240
<v Speaker 2>the most important person in the country, not actually being

0:32:14.280 --> 0:32:17.360
<v Speaker 2>the person with the power. I think putting the power

0:32:17.880 --> 0:32:20.560
<v Speaker 2>and the sort of dignity of nationhood in the same

0:32:20.600 --> 0:32:23.600
<v Speaker 2>person can be problematic. I say that at risk of,

0:32:24.160 --> 0:32:28.480
<v Speaker 2>you know, of straying into topicality again, but I genuinely

0:32:28.480 --> 0:32:31.640
<v Speaker 2>think it's useful that the person with the most power

0:32:31.680 --> 0:32:35.120
<v Speaker 2>in Britain is the Prime Minister, but they have someone

0:32:35.120 --> 0:32:38.560
<v Speaker 2>else who's nominally their boss. And obviously, if we got

0:32:38.600 --> 0:32:40.000
<v Speaker 2>rid of the monarchy, we would have to have a

0:32:40.040 --> 0:32:43.240
<v Speaker 2>new constitution. We'd have to decide whether to have an

0:32:43.280 --> 0:32:46.840
<v Speaker 2>executive presidency like in the United States and France, or

0:32:46.840 --> 0:32:49.600
<v Speaker 2>whether you have a president you elect but has little

0:32:49.640 --> 0:32:52.320
<v Speaker 2>more power than a monarch. And you know, I don't

0:32:52.360 --> 0:32:54.800
<v Speaker 2>know how well we cope with that, because if you've

0:32:54.800 --> 0:32:57.160
<v Speaker 2>won an election, you should have power, shouldn't you. Or

0:32:57.200 --> 0:32:59.360
<v Speaker 2>you know that we'd have to face up to all

0:32:59.400 --> 0:33:02.640
<v Speaker 2>of that. And my fear is that we're going through

0:33:02.640 --> 0:33:06.320
<v Speaker 2>a tricky time ourselves here with faith in politicians and

0:33:06.320 --> 0:33:09.040
<v Speaker 2>politics is a sort of all time low, and this

0:33:09.120 --> 0:33:11.880
<v Speaker 2>isn't really the best time to frame a new constitution.

0:33:12.360 --> 0:33:14.520
<v Speaker 1>It would leave you so vulnerable to the vikings.

0:33:16.640 --> 0:33:21.600
<v Speaker 2>Excellent point, yes, and then we'd only have ourselves to blame.

0:33:23.120 --> 0:33:27.280
<v Speaker 1>Well, unruly. The Ridiculous History of England's Kings and Queens

0:33:27.360 --> 0:33:30.640
<v Speaker 1>is out in paperback in the UK and across the Pond.

0:33:30.880 --> 0:33:33.320
<v Speaker 1>You should absolutely pick it up. It is a delightful

0:33:33.440 --> 0:33:36.640
<v Speaker 1>and such a smart read. David Mitchell, I can't thank

0:33:36.680 --> 0:33:38.520
<v Speaker 1>you again enough for this conversation.

0:33:38.720 --> 0:33:41.560
<v Speaker 2>Thank you so much, Thank you very much for having me.

0:33:41.600 --> 0:33:42.560
<v Speaker 2>I've really enjoyed it.

0:33:51.960 --> 0:33:55.840
<v Speaker 1>Noble Blood is a production of iHeartRadio and Grim and

0:33:55.880 --> 0:33:59.920
<v Speaker 1>Mild from Aaron Mankey. Noble Blood is hosted by me Dana,

0:34:00.960 --> 0:34:05.920
<v Speaker 1>with additional writing and research by Hannah Johnston, Hannahswick, Courtney Sender,

0:34:06.160 --> 0:34:09.920
<v Speaker 1>Amy Hit and Julia Milani. The show is edited and

0:34:10.080 --> 0:34:15.840
<v Speaker 1>produced by Jesse Funk, with supervising producerrima Ill Kali and

0:34:16.000 --> 0:34:20.440
<v Speaker 1>executive producers Aaron Manke, Trevor Young and Matt Frederick. For

0:34:20.560 --> 0:34:26.000
<v Speaker 1>more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

0:34:26.239 --> 0:34:29.520
<v Speaker 1>or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.