1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,600 Speaker 1: Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of iHeartRadio and Grim 2 00:00:04,640 --> 00:00:11,119 Speaker 1: and Mild from Aaron Manky. Listener discretion advised. I'm so 3 00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 1: thrilled to be talking to the brilliant David Mitchell, who's 4 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:19,520 Speaker 1: an incredible comedian, actor, writer, television show creator, icon of 5 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:23,479 Speaker 1: British panel shows, an author of several books. But his 6 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:28,120 Speaker 1: latest book, Unruly, The Ridiculous History of England's Kings and Queens, 7 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:30,920 Speaker 1: is now out in paperback. If you're a listener of 8 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:34,440 Speaker 1: this podcast, you will absolutely love this book. It's such 9 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:37,240 Speaker 1: a phenomenal analysis not only of the early kings and 10 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:40,760 Speaker 1: queens of England, starting from before William the First, which 11 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 1: I thought was a brilliant decision, but an analysis really 12 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:48,520 Speaker 1: of what our historical understanding of those kings says about 13 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:52,839 Speaker 1: British culture and human culture as a whole. David, thank 14 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 1: you so much for joining me. 15 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:56,920 Speaker 2: No, not at all, thank you for having me. Thank 16 00:00:56,920 --> 00:00:58,680 Speaker 2: you for that lovely introduction. 17 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:03,320 Speaker 1: Just to start. What inspired you to write a book 18 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 1: about the British monarchy? 19 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:09,160 Speaker 2: Well, it was definitely partly the global pandemic in that 20 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:13,480 Speaker 2: I was sitting around doing nothing and I sort of 21 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:16,480 Speaker 2: went through a long period of frustration at all of 22 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:19,720 Speaker 2: the books and screenplays that everyone else seemed to be 23 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 2: using their time to write while I sat there and 24 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 2: miserably refreshed the BBC news page and the hope of 25 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:29,760 Speaker 2: some sign of an end to it all. And then finally, 26 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 2: when there was some sign of an end to it all, 27 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:34,320 Speaker 2: I found something to do, which was to initially sit 28 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 2: down and start typing about how the arrival of COVID 29 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:41,640 Speaker 2: felt a bit like the arrival of the Vikings must 30 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:45,000 Speaker 2: have felt to the Anglo Saxons, as in, it was 31 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 2: just something that came out of the blue and was 32 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 2: a real pain for everyone. Was you know, literal and 33 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:56,920 Speaker 2: metaphorical pain ensued. So I literally started typing that chapter. 34 00:01:57,200 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 2: I think because of that, you know, the weirdness of 35 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:03,600 Speaker 2: cod and the suddenness, do you do think more about 36 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 2: history because you think, oh my god, this is a 37 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 2: bit of it that's happening. It's just happening suddenly to me, 38 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 2: and it's not out of a trend. Really. I mean, 39 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 2: obviously people relentlessly talk about how it was out of 40 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:17,000 Speaker 2: a trend and we should have seen it coming and 41 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:19,720 Speaker 2: why wasn't there more ppe in all the covers et cetera, 42 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:22,280 Speaker 2: et cetera. But they weren't saying it beforehand, or if 43 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:24,280 Speaker 2: they were, no one was listening, So I sort of 44 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:27,680 Speaker 2: I think broadly speaking, no one saw it coming. I mean, 45 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:29,640 Speaker 2: the Anglo Saxons thought that they should have seen the 46 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:31,600 Speaker 2: vikings coming by, you know, and it was all because 47 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:34,680 Speaker 2: they hadn't prayed enough. And there's really no evidence of 48 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 2: a connection between their lack of praying and the arrival 49 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:40,079 Speaker 2: of Norse warriors. But you know, you start thinking about 50 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 2: your powerlessness in the universe, and that's how a lot 51 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:46,839 Speaker 2: of people in the Middle Ages felt all the time, 52 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:49,799 Speaker 2: because they really didn't know what the hell was going on. 53 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 2: So it was a natural thing to start typing about. 54 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 2: And then it was great that I just had that 55 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 2: freedom for a few months, just to play around with 56 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:01,240 Speaker 2: it and find a tone voice that I hope is 57 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 2: funny for talking about the past in a not in 58 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:07,240 Speaker 2: a detailed way, but in a way that gives an 59 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 2: overview for people who wish they had more of an 60 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:12,840 Speaker 2: overview of in the case of my book, The Kings 61 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 2: and Queens of England. So yes, by the time we 62 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 2: were allowed to go out and get a cafes again, 63 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:20,960 Speaker 2: I'd written a third of it, and that I was 64 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:23,400 Speaker 2: bound to finish it or that third would have been wasted. 65 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:26,200 Speaker 2: I tend to write another book, but I'm not quite 66 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 2: sure how I'll do it without a pandemic. 67 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 1: Well I was going to say, well, we would all 68 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:33,840 Speaker 1: hope for that, but let's just say if there was 69 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 1: another pandemic, that would be the slight silver lining. 70 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 2: Well, thank you. 71 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:43,040 Speaker 1: Where did you begin in your historical research? Obviously there 72 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:47,119 Speaker 1: you cover a wide swath of history. What was sort 73 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 1: of your process like of finding sources or reading? 74 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 2: Genuinely? I started writing about what I knew about already 75 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:57,120 Speaker 2: and to try and find a funny way through it. 76 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:00,160 Speaker 2: And then when i'd sort of realized, actually I've got 77 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 2: to a point I don't know what happened now, then 78 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 2: I've just read around it and I can't pretend to 79 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 2: have gone back to primary sources in any way. But 80 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 2: I just read some books about it and got my 81 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:15,200 Speaker 2: sense of what was vaguely going on, and tried to 82 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:18,600 Speaker 2: re express it in a way that's comic and informative. 83 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 2: And I see myself as a comedian, not a historian. 84 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:24,520 Speaker 2: And I thought, the first thing the book needs to 85 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 2: be if at all possible is amusing, and if it 86 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:31,600 Speaker 2: can be amusing through things that are true and in 87 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:34,919 Speaker 2: my view sort of historically matter, then that would be 88 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:39,280 Speaker 2: hopefully a rewarding read rather than taking you know, obviously, 89 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 2: you can find funny things in history in terms of 90 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 2: broadly the disgustingness of life, then the lack of plumbing, 91 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:50,360 Speaker 2: the weird superstitions. 92 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:54,080 Speaker 1: You can do that, the existence of King Henry the Eighth. 93 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. Or you can try and do what I 94 00:04:57,839 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 2: hope I've done, at least partly, is take the thing 95 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 2: that were important and see the funny side of that. 96 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 2: And that doesn't mean, because I'm a big believer that 97 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:12,560 Speaker 2: anything that matters is looked at in a certain way funny, 98 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:15,919 Speaker 2: and if it doesn't matter, it's never that funny. The 99 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:19,039 Speaker 2: best comedies have always been about things that really matter, 100 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 2: you know. The heart of the Simpsons is a story 101 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 2: of disappointment and a failed dream and the sort of 102 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 2: I mean, there's a great line in it I think that, 103 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 2: you know, be the cause of an answer to all 104 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 2: of life's problem and in that you sort of there's 105 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:42,640 Speaker 2: a sort of deep truth about human disappointment that makes 106 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 2: that show much funnier. Than if it was just you know, 107 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:46,839 Speaker 2: funny about silly things. 108 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 1: They should put that on the Emmy campaigns. I haven't 109 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:50,680 Speaker 1: seen that on the billboards. 110 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 2: Well, I think the greatest truth comes through comedy, I think, 111 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:58,040 Speaker 2: and I you know someone who's tried to say funny 112 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:01,560 Speaker 2: things about the news that various in my career. I thought, well, 113 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:05,160 Speaker 2: I'll try that about what was the news? Which is history. 114 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:07,800 Speaker 1: One thing that I love about this book that I 115 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 1: mentioned briefly in the introduction is that you choose to 116 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:13,599 Speaker 1: start earlier than William the First, than William the Conqueror, 117 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 1: where the counting sort of begins, But there's so much 118 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:22,600 Speaker 1: British English history that happens before then. And particularly I 119 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:26,520 Speaker 1: loved your analysis of King Arthur. Can you talk a 120 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 1: little bit about how the myth of King Arthur sort 121 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 1: of is understood in modern day Britain. 122 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:36,920 Speaker 2: Well, King Arthur is probably the most famous king in 123 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:39,480 Speaker 2: some ways. It's probably more programs made about Henry the 124 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:43,560 Speaker 2: Eighth these days, but he is an incredibly famous figure, 125 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 2: the original good King who reigned at some point after 126 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:52,039 Speaker 2: the Romans had left and before the Anglo Saxons arrived, 127 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:56,160 Speaker 2: and a wonderful, very very pure and Christian Kingdom. And 128 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 2: this is a lovely idea lent on an in Jul 129 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 2: for centuries by other kings, by people who were sad 130 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:06,720 Speaker 2: that their king wasn't better and they thought, if only 131 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:08,839 Speaker 2: he could have been more like good old King Arthur was. 132 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 2: And you know, it has been dramatized for television and 133 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 2: in films, and it's a really lovely idea. The only 134 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 2: problem is there is absolutely zero evidence that he existed 135 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 2: at all, and you know, he just didn't. It's just 136 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 2: not possible. I mean, he looks like a medieval king 137 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 2: in all the pictures, and that's because the key time 138 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:31,800 Speaker 2: of imagining and enjoying imagining him was the Middle Ages, 139 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:34,240 Speaker 2: and they didn't really think about whether people wore the 140 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 2: same clothes hundreds of years earlier as they did. So 141 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 2: that's a bit of a clue. Why would there be 142 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 2: this sudden basically totally medieval king, a bit like Edward 143 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 2: the First or Edward the Third cropping up soon after 144 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:51,280 Speaker 2: the last toga just rotted and before the first boat 145 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:54,360 Speaker 2: comes over from Denmark. It just doesn't add up. And 146 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 2: the monks of Glastonbury Abbey, who were you know, nothing 147 00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 2: if not entrepreneurial created a grave for King Arthur and 148 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 2: his queen, and everyone thought, well, he must have existed, 149 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:08,560 Speaker 2: he's got a grave, but no, it's you know, you 150 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:10,880 Speaker 2: could say the same about Mickey Mouse and his castle. 151 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 2: So yes, King Arthur is a lovely idea, but he 152 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 2: didn't exist, but very very important if you're writing a 153 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 2: book about kings because that's the template. That's what everyone 154 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 2: was saying a king should be. And they didn't. And 155 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 2: they weren't great many periods of the past, and we're 156 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 2: not necessarily that great at it now. Even they weren't 157 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:36,440 Speaker 2: great at hoping for a better future. What they could do, though, 158 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 2: is hark back to a better past. But they didn't 159 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:41,680 Speaker 2: necessarily really know what the past was like, so they 160 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:45,680 Speaker 2: sort of invented a utopian past in King Arthur, or 161 00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 2: certainly utopian when it comes to kingship, and decided that's 162 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 2: what they would hark back to. 163 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 1: I found that idea in your book very striking, with 164 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:57,920 Speaker 1: a lot of modern parallels of how motivating it is 165 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 1: for people to harken back to an imaginary past, whether 166 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:04,320 Speaker 1: or not that past actually existed. 167 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:08,360 Speaker 2: Well exactly, and our views are memories of the past 168 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:13,280 Speaker 2: that you know, with the issue of making America great 169 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 2: again is hanging over this conversation. So I'm just going 170 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 2: to say that is an attempt to harp back to 171 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:22,560 Speaker 2: something in people's minds, and whether or not that thing 172 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 2: ever existed is well certainly unproved either way. It was 173 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:30,400 Speaker 2: a different world in all of the West in the 174 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 2: nineteen fifties and sixties, and in many ways it was 175 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:34,960 Speaker 2: a worse world, but in some ways it was a 176 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:37,640 Speaker 2: better world. Obviously, there are people who want to cherry 177 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 2: pick elements of the past and say, let's get back 178 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:43,000 Speaker 2: to that it was. It was better. One of the 179 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 2: things that was better for us all, of course, is 180 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:47,839 Speaker 2: that we were younger, so you know, our backs hurt 181 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:50,880 Speaker 2: a bit less, you know, our these were less troublesome, 182 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 2: Our death was further away, and you can't actually get 183 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:54,960 Speaker 2: back to that. 184 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:58,600 Speaker 1: Our parents weren't telling us about all the bad things 185 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:01,320 Speaker 1: happening on the news, and movies were better because we, 186 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:03,680 Speaker 1: of course weren't watching them with the critical eye. 187 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:07,680 Speaker 2: Yes, quite so, you know, you can't help Nostalgia is 188 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 2: a powerful force. And even that, you know, it's possible 189 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:16,280 Speaker 2: to feel nostalgia even for great misery. In one's own past, 190 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 2: and that's just because it's gone now and will never 191 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:23,079 Speaker 2: be recaptured, so it has a kind of rose tinted aura. 192 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:33,839 Speaker 1: One idea that I love in this book is the 193 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:36,840 Speaker 1: notion that the for lack of a better phrase, da 194 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:40,520 Speaker 1: Vinci codification of trying to find the real King Arthur 195 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:44,079 Speaker 1: is ultimately a meaningless exercise, because even if you found 196 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:46,559 Speaker 1: a man who happened to be called Arthur, he wouldn't 197 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 1: be the king that he became in popular legend. 198 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 2: Well know exactly. And people are so desperate for King 199 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:55,640 Speaker 2: Arthur to have existed, you know, understandably it would be 200 00:10:55,679 --> 00:10:58,760 Speaker 2: really cool that they seem willing to drop almost every 201 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:03,680 Speaker 2: meaningful attribute I'd say, including his name. Maybe he was 202 00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:08,520 Speaker 2: based on some major chieftain who ruled the Britons, you know, 203 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 2: soon after the Legions left and the and the Anglo 204 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 2: Saxons arrived and he said, well, yes, okay. And obviously 205 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:18,080 Speaker 2: there were powerful figures then because people lived, and so 206 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 2: there will have been people bossing them around. That's the 207 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 2: way of the world. But in what meaningful way are 208 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 2: any of them King Arthur? And yes, I suppose King 209 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 2: Arthur is based on them, because that's the time in 210 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 2: history that he's supposedly sort of cited. But unless any 211 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 2: of these people were in any way, you know, good, 212 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:39,200 Speaker 2: in the in the same ways as King Arthur, then 213 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 2: the basing him on them is not very meaningful. 214 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:48,439 Speaker 1: Who in your research of this book, which goes from 215 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 1: the imaginer King Arthur up until Elizabeth, I would you 216 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:55,200 Speaker 1: say is the most underrated king that you came across. 217 00:11:56,400 --> 00:12:00,440 Speaker 2: I've got a soft spot for Henry the first, and 218 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:03,640 Speaker 2: he's certainly not very highly rated at the time. I 219 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:06,520 Speaker 2: don't suppose he felt underrated. He was, you know, everybody 220 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:08,640 Speaker 2: said he was a very successful king, but I think 221 00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:12,840 Speaker 2: he's largely forgotten now. And the reason he interests me 222 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 2: is that he feels very professional, and you sort of 223 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:19,600 Speaker 2: feel that the government under him was he had an interest, 224 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:23,760 Speaker 2: not necessarily in the priorities that modern government have, but 225 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 2: he wanted order. He wanted expansion of his own realm, 226 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:31,199 Speaker 2: but sort of to a limited extent. He wasn't going 227 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:35,680 Speaker 2: mad for that. He wanted an orderly succession to the 228 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:38,840 Speaker 2: next generation. He very much didn't get that, but he 229 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:42,640 Speaker 2: really worked at it. So you sort of think that 230 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:45,320 Speaker 2: that's not that nightmarish for the people at the time. 231 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 2: If you've got a king like that, then that is 232 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:51,920 Speaker 2: reasonably competent government. And that may sound like faint praise, 233 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:55,080 Speaker 2: but in the context of the Middle Ages, it isn't 234 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:58,240 Speaker 2: faint praise. It's high praise, because the standard of government 235 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:01,199 Speaker 2: was dreadful. So I think Henry, I think if all 236 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:03,839 Speaker 2: the kings had been like Henry the first, then being 237 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 2: a medieval peasant would have been forty percent more pleasant 238 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 2: than it actually turned out to be. So yeah, I'll 239 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:11,079 Speaker 2: put in a word for him. 240 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:15,800 Speaker 1: I do love the emphasis over the book of predictability 241 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:20,360 Speaker 1: and the value of stability and understanding what's coming next, 242 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 1: and whether that is knowing which son is going to 243 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:25,920 Speaker 1: become king next, or knowing that you're not going to 244 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 1: go to war and lose all your holdings. In Normandy, 245 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:34,200 Speaker 1: predictability feels like a sort of undersung factor in what 246 00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 1: makes a good king. It's not usually as glamorous in 247 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 1: a conversation when compared to war or conquering or crusades. 248 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:44,679 Speaker 2: Basically, they knew at the time, as far as I 249 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:47,679 Speaker 2: can tell, that there was no amount of good stuff 250 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:51,199 Speaker 2: that any individual ruler could do that was as bad 251 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:55,959 Speaker 2: as what could go wrong if there was a disputed succession, 252 00:13:56,320 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 2: and they were very much happened. The whole principle of 253 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:02,480 Speaker 2: kingship is saying, never mind how good the ruler is, 254 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 2: let's just know who it is. Because when we don't 255 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 2: know who it is, that civil war and the very 256 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:12,960 Speaker 2: basic stuff that we expect from our government, stopping us 257 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 2: being invaded, maybe a bit of help if the crops fail, 258 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 2: you know, low level law and order that will collapse 259 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:23,640 Speaker 2: if we don't know who the king is, and even 260 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:28,400 Speaker 2: quite bad kings might keep those basic services limping along. 261 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 2: So by saying, and in the early part of the book, 262 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:35,960 Speaker 2: the Anglo Saxons, they didn't have the principle of primogeniture, 263 00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 2: so it wasn't necessarily the eldest son who was supposed 264 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 2: to succeed. So quite often when an Anglo Saxon king died, 265 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 2: there was a mini civil war while his sons fought 266 00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 2: it out for the who is going to run the kingdom? 267 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 2: And that's actually a marginally more meritocratic system you get 268 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 2: the more effective warrior king tends to be the one 269 00:14:56,440 --> 00:15:01,960 Speaker 2: that prevails. But that element of meritocracy was demonstrably not 270 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 2: worth it for the amount of fighting and killing that 271 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 2: that system involved. You know, now, in a functioning democracy 272 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 2: you get fingers crossed an orderly succession when one government 273 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 2: replaces the other. And that's a really important part of 274 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 2: what makes a democracy work, because if you don't have that, 275 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 2: you're better off just not changing the government ever, sticking 276 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 2: with who you've got, and then saying as clearly as 277 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 2: possible in advance, and when he dies, it'll be his son, 278 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 2: and please may it just continue on this even keel 279 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:36,680 Speaker 2: for as long as possible. Because the worst things that 280 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 2: happened in the Middle Ages weren't the things the king did. 281 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:42,240 Speaker 2: It was the times no one knew who the king 282 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 2: was or couldn't agree on that. And that's happened a 283 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:49,000 Speaker 2: lot in the Anglo saxon Araa with no primar geniture established. 284 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:52,280 Speaker 2: It happened when Henry the first died and he wanted 285 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 2: his daughter to succeed him. That did not go down 286 00:15:56,880 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 2: well at the time, a non house of the dragon, right, yeah, yes, 287 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:02,480 Speaker 2: And you know that was so there was there was 288 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 2: absolute you know, hellish it's known unfashionably now, but it's 289 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 2: known as the anarchy traditionally that period. And that's a 290 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:15,080 Speaker 2: hint that it wasn't nice the Wars of the Roses 291 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:18,240 Speaker 2: a few hundred years later. That's a long period of 292 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 2: lack of clarity as to who the king was. That 293 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:23,920 Speaker 2: was the lesson of the age. But every so often 294 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 2: they broke their own rules. So Richard the Second absolutely 295 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 2: terrible king, but undoubtedly the rightful king. Nobody ever really 296 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:37,240 Speaker 2: disputed his right to rule, however awful his conduct was. 297 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 2: But in the end he was so bad they couldn't 298 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:43,000 Speaker 2: stand it, and the barons got rid of him, and 299 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:46,640 Speaker 2: he basically killed him or allowed him to die and 300 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 2: put another guy on the throne who was in every 301 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 2: way more competent, and they all liked him, and you know, 302 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 2: he'll be much better, but they all felt they'd done wrong. 303 00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:58,400 Speaker 2: The next king was Henry the Fourth. He had a 304 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 2: sort of very unst stable, unhappy reign, but basically thereon 305 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:08,879 Speaker 2: that the office of king was never properly strong again, 306 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:13,680 Speaker 2: and there was a lot more fighting over who would 307 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:17,879 Speaker 2: be in charge after that, and so fundamentally it wasn't 308 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:20,440 Speaker 2: worth it. They should have stuck with Richard the scond 309 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:22,760 Speaker 2: until he died, and that you know, there would have 310 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:25,440 Speaker 2: been less horribleness if they had. But at the time, 311 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:28,639 Speaker 2: they thought, well, he just can't carry on to me 312 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:30,639 Speaker 2: because it's a long time ago, and all of the 313 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:34,920 Speaker 2: pain caused just as long you know, has receded well 314 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:39,840 Speaker 2: into the background. I find it funny. I find that quandary. 315 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:44,480 Speaker 2: They're relentlessly in that, the aristocrats of sort of stability 316 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:48,160 Speaker 2: versus competence. I find that amusing, amusing to see them 317 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 2: struggle with it. Amusing how they've invented collectively this thing 318 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:57,440 Speaker 2: kingship that they claim God is into So they give 319 00:17:57,520 --> 00:17:59,920 Speaker 2: the rule of the sort of endorsement of the Almighty. 320 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 2: That was a clever idea to have cooked up. But 321 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:06,200 Speaker 2: then the problem is, what if you have an absolute idiot, 322 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 2: you know, slash murderous maniac who you're now saying is 323 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:14,119 Speaker 2: endorsed by God. What do you do about that? And 324 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 2: should you just do nothing, you know, hope it gets better, 325 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:19,400 Speaker 2: wait till he dies? Should you try and get rid 326 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:22,440 Speaker 2: of him? But then what are you saying? What's the system? 327 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:22,720 Speaker 1: Then? 328 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 2: I think the other thing that we forget is that 329 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:29,880 Speaker 2: they really bought into this. It might have been invented 330 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:31,919 Speaker 2: in the Middle Ages, the notion of kingship, but they 331 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:34,399 Speaker 2: didn't feel that they'd invented it. They thought it was 332 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:39,119 Speaker 2: something fundamental and natural and genuinely ordained by God. So 333 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:42,040 Speaker 2: as soon as they undermine it, they feel have we 334 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:45,320 Speaker 2: committed a terrible sin? And if they don't feel like that, 335 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 2: they're just sort of rudderless in the universe, saying, well, 336 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 2: who's supposed to look after us? Who's supposed to say 337 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:56,480 Speaker 2: what's what? And we're quite used to the notion of atheism. 338 00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:59,159 Speaker 2: Now there are a lot of atheists, and there's no 339 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:02,960 Speaker 2: one who hasn't heard of the idea. So we've all 340 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:05,640 Speaker 2: contemplated that feeling that what if there is no order 341 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:08,560 Speaker 2: to the universe, there is no big beardy guy in 342 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:11,400 Speaker 2: charge making sure we'll all be okay. And so even 343 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:15,200 Speaker 2: if we do decide we're religious, and it's a sort 344 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:18,119 Speaker 2: of choice, in those days, it wasn't a choice. They 345 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:20,359 Speaker 2: were that they were told it was true in the 346 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:23,360 Speaker 2: same way we're told how to wire a plug, and 347 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 2: that must have been very, very comforting. And the idea 348 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:29,840 Speaker 2: of kingship was fundamentally linked to that. So as soon 349 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 2: as the king is bad, as soon as they get 350 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 2: rid of a king, then their whole notion of the 351 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:38,119 Speaker 2: universe is shaken. As if they suddenly discover that the 352 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 2: you know, the solar system isn't as we believe it 353 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:41,240 Speaker 2: to be. 354 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:44,359 Speaker 1: I mean, there's that idea where if the king isn't 355 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:48,040 Speaker 1: chosen by God, then it's just a man in a 356 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:51,560 Speaker 1: gold hat, and we've we've created all of these institutions 357 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:54,840 Speaker 1: around him that are artificial and ultimately meaningless. You know, 358 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 1: hundreds of people bringing him his breakfast and organizing his 359 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:02,119 Speaker 1: jousts and every that goes into kingship. What is it 360 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 1: all for if it's not God anointing this person as 361 00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 1: the leader of all of us. 362 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:11,880 Speaker 2: Exactly a tremendous comfort come from it, and the sort 363 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:15,359 Speaker 2: of duty to this figure, and sort of trying to say, well, 364 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:17,840 Speaker 2: you know, the Lord moves in mysterious ways, so the 365 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 2: king may seem like a maniac, but maybe this is 366 00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:23,680 Speaker 2: all going to come good in the end. And throughout 367 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:26,880 Speaker 2: my book you see people try and shore up that idea, 368 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:30,000 Speaker 2: and you see them confront it, and it doesn't really 369 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:33,240 Speaker 2: come to any final conclusion. But at the end there's 370 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:36,800 Speaker 2: still a sovereign on the throne claiming that they rule 371 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 2: by divine sanction. I think the idea is less brought 372 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:42,359 Speaker 2: into by the nobleman then than it had been a 373 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 2: few hundred years earlier. But they're still going with it. 374 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:48,359 Speaker 2: But there is also something called a parliament sort of 375 00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:51,639 Speaker 2: slightly reigning in the monarchs, and that obviously is a 376 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:55,280 Speaker 2: prelude to the next chapter of English and British history 377 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 2: when the parliament and the king end up fighting a war. 378 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:02,159 Speaker 2: But you could sort of see that that was inevitable 379 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:04,600 Speaker 2: because they were fundamentally always going to come to blows. 380 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:08,120 Speaker 1: If Henry the First is sort of the unsung king 381 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:11,560 Speaker 1: or an underrated king in British history, who would you 382 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:13,240 Speaker 1: say is the most overrated king? 383 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 2: Henry the Fifth, I think is probably the most overrated. 384 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:20,240 Speaker 1: He had that one buzzy battle. 385 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:25,399 Speaker 2: Though amazing battle Agincourps, definitely won against the odds, and he, 386 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 2: by the end of his reign was you know, the 387 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:31,760 Speaker 2: heir to the French throne as well as King of England, 388 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 2: and so you know, on his own terms he was 389 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:38,760 Speaker 2: spectacularly successful. That's where I sort of play my comedian's 390 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 2: card and say I'm allowed to take a step back 391 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:45,760 Speaker 2: from medieval kingship and say that the hundreds of years 392 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:49,760 Speaker 2: of English kings desperately trying also to be kings of France. 393 00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 2: Was an enormous waste of energy, money, lives, and effort, 394 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 2: and it was pointless. It was the wrong policy. The 395 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 2: King of England will never be the King of France 396 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:06,240 Speaker 2: as well. The King of France will never be the 397 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:09,159 Speaker 2: King of England as well. It was just unworkable. But 398 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:13,600 Speaker 2: yet English kings for hundreds of years, their main focus 399 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:17,800 Speaker 2: was raising money to raise troops to go over to 400 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:21,840 Speaker 2: fight battles in France, with horrendous consequences for the people 401 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:24,680 Speaker 2: trying to just live in France, and in the end 402 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:28,760 Speaker 2: they usually failed. There are a few examples of that. 403 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:32,960 Speaker 2: You know. English history has sort of always cherished of 404 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:36,800 Speaker 2: these against the odds victories, with the brave English archers 405 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 2: defeating larger numbers of French knights. But you take a 406 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:42,439 Speaker 2: step back and what was the point in all of that. 407 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:45,639 Speaker 2: The King of England never became King of France, and 408 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:48,600 Speaker 2: it wouldn't have been good if they had. It was 409 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:52,159 Speaker 2: just a waste of time and blood and energy. And 410 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:54,119 Speaker 2: it's one of the things I like about Henry the 411 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:57,080 Speaker 2: first is that he didn't really try any of that. 412 00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 2: He was the Duke of Normandy. He wanted control of Normandy. 413 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:03,800 Speaker 2: He'd like control of some other bits around Normandy if possible. 414 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:07,440 Speaker 2: But he didn't have any ridiculous ideas about also being 415 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:10,480 Speaker 2: king of France like Henry the fifth and Edward the 416 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:13,200 Speaker 2: Third did, or being say, like Henry the eighth did, 417 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 2: being some sort of emperor or whatever. He knew his place. 418 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:22,120 Speaker 2: He had reasonable ambitions for a king of his scale, 419 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:25,399 Speaker 2: and that caused a lot less suffering. Henry the fifth 420 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:30,520 Speaker 2: was a maniac fueled by sort of religious fervor. Very 421 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 2: successful militarily, but what is the point in all of 422 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:38,119 Speaker 2: that energy and all of that killing of poor French 423 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:40,359 Speaker 2: noblemen while they were wrapped up in armor. 424 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:44,239 Speaker 1: That's a fantastic reed. I also, I think one of 425 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:48,199 Speaker 1: the most controversial kings, and controversial in the sense that 426 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:51,600 Speaker 1: people have very very strong opinions on both sides of 427 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:56,159 Speaker 1: the issue, is Richard, because there are people who have 428 00:23:56,760 --> 00:24:00,399 Speaker 1: very strong feelings are what are your feelings on Richard 429 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:00,720 Speaker 1: the Third? 430 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 2: Well, my feeling I take the conventional line on Richard 431 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 2: the Third, which is that he is overwhelmingly the most 432 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:10,720 Speaker 2: likely person to have caused the deaths of his nephews, 433 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:13,320 Speaker 2: the princes in the Tower. That's the key point of 434 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 2: controversy over Richard the third. He definitely took the throne, 435 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:19,800 Speaker 2: you know, usurped the throne from his nephew, who was 436 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:21,760 Speaker 2: referred to as end of the fifth, although he wasn't 437 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:25,520 Speaker 2: really meaningfully ever a king, but he definitely usurped the throne. 438 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,680 Speaker 2: But obviously plenty of people in that, including Henry the First. 439 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 2: That doesn't necessarily make you villainous in the context of 440 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:36,600 Speaker 2: English kingship, but it's also he has always been accused 441 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:39,439 Speaker 2: of murdering his nephew edd Of the fifth and his 442 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:42,520 Speaker 2: brother when they were boys in the Tower of London, 443 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:45,440 Speaker 2: and you know, either murdering them himself or more likely 444 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:50,479 Speaker 2: having them murdered. I think he probably did that, and 445 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:53,960 Speaker 2: that is the conventional historical line. But Richard the Third 446 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,119 Speaker 2: has a lot of fans who think he was, you know, 447 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:01,720 Speaker 2: unfairly maligned, largely as a delt of Tudor propaganda, because 448 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:04,280 Speaker 2: after Richard the Third fell there was a regime change 449 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:06,440 Speaker 2: that Tudor did this. He came in and they had 450 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:11,160 Speaker 2: to justify them their having taken the throne, and which 451 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:13,959 Speaker 2: they needed. It needed a lot of justification because they 452 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:17,120 Speaker 2: definitely weren't heirs to the throne by any of the 453 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:21,919 Speaker 2: conventions of inheritance, so they needed to cook up a story, 454 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:23,760 Speaker 2: and the key part of their story was, well, the 455 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:26,439 Speaker 2: king before was awful, he killed his nephews, he was 456 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:29,480 Speaker 2: a tyrant, and so you know, obviously you have to 457 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:32,480 Speaker 2: be suspicious of the things they say about Richard the third. 458 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:36,240 Speaker 2: But I don't know what else happened to those princes 459 00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:38,640 Speaker 2: because nobody, as far as we know, nobody saw them 460 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,560 Speaker 2: for at least two years before Henry the seventh was 461 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:44,919 Speaker 2: on the scene. So I don't see that it's plausible 462 00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:47,240 Speaker 2: that they were killed by the Tudors. I think it 463 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:49,520 Speaker 2: was very likely to have been Richard the third, but 464 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 2: I'm not saying that's definite. What amuses me is how 465 00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:58,640 Speaker 2: much emotional investment people have in saying, no, Richard there 466 00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:03,080 Speaker 2: was lovely, he was great king, and well, we can't know, 467 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 2: we can't know for sure. We know the balance of probability. 468 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 2: We know it's more likely he killed the princes in 469 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:12,919 Speaker 2: the tower than anyone else, and we sort of just 470 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:15,919 Speaker 2: have to be satisfied with that. And you can enjoy 471 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:19,639 Speaker 2: and imagined Richard IID, who is unfairly slantered by the 472 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:22,360 Speaker 2: tudors if you want to, but you can't tell yourself 473 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:24,520 Speaker 2: that was definitely the case, just because you find it 474 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:25,679 Speaker 2: an attractive idea. 475 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:28,040 Speaker 1: It kind of goes back to what you were saying 476 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:32,199 Speaker 1: about history being the story that we tell ourselves in 477 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:35,560 Speaker 1: that it's very fun to imagine that it's a detective 478 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:39,200 Speaker 1: story that we can solve and not an incredibly messy 479 00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:42,919 Speaker 1: series of complicated people and complicated events that will be 480 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:44,320 Speaker 1: forever Unknoble. 481 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 2: Well exactly that all we have is the evidence that's 482 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:50,679 Speaker 2: come down to us and things have been written about it, 483 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:55,040 Speaker 2: and you know, we're not going to suddenly discover video 484 00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:59,320 Speaker 2: footage of Henry the Seventh killing the young Prince of 485 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:02,520 Speaker 2: the Fifth. It's just not going to happen. There's always 486 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 2: going to be a question mark over it. So I thought, 487 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:09,159 Speaker 2: in my overview, i'll, you know, I'll say what I 488 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 2: think probably happened, and the reason I think it probably 489 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 2: went that way, that's what most people think, and that's 490 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,199 Speaker 2: that's the direction most of the evidence points in. But 491 00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:20,960 Speaker 2: I fully accept we can't totally know. 492 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:23,720 Speaker 1: I don't want to keep you too long, but just 493 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:27,160 Speaker 1: as we wrap up the conversation, what I love about 494 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:29,720 Speaker 1: this book is Not only is it an overview of 495 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:33,760 Speaker 1: the monarchs as they came, but also it fundamentally deepened, 496 00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 1: especially as an American, my understanding of how British people 497 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:41,720 Speaker 1: see themselves through the monarchy. Is there something you learned 498 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:44,919 Speaker 1: about British identity or discovered over the course of writing 499 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:46,159 Speaker 1: this book that surprised you. 500 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:49,679 Speaker 2: Well, I think the more I thought about it, the 501 00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:51,720 Speaker 2: more I was very careful to say, this is a 502 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:54,359 Speaker 2: book about the English kings, so it's not about the 503 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:57,200 Speaker 2: Scottish king. Yes, I apologize, No, no, not at all, 504 00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:01,679 Speaker 2: but I'm sort of more explained. Why I was so 505 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 2: clear on that partly because I, you know, I Scottish 506 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 2: history up to sixty you know three is of you know, 507 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:12,080 Speaker 2: linked but separate thing. Ditto Irish history, and I wasn't 508 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,639 Speaker 2: going to pretend I'd covered them because I hadn't. So 509 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 2: I'm coming clean. This is just England. Obviously, after the 510 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:21,800 Speaker 2: period of my book onwards, the monarchy, the same monarchy 511 00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:25,240 Speaker 2: is effectively shared by more parts of the British Isles, 512 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:28,439 Speaker 2: so it become the story is more unified into a 513 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:32,479 Speaker 2: story of British history, the divisions within it. Notwithstanding what 514 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:36,600 Speaker 2: it struck me is that within the United Kingdom and 515 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 2: the British Isles, the nations that aren't England, Scotland, Wales 516 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:45,760 Speaker 2: and Ireland have very very strong senses of cultural identity, 517 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:49,840 Speaker 2: and England doesn't. I don't think so. I think England's 518 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:53,280 Speaker 2: various sections of England have strong senses of identity Cornwall 519 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 2: and Yorkshire, and London and Kent, and you know, the 520 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:00,720 Speaker 2: North of England versus the South of England. These are 521 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:04,280 Speaker 2: strong senses, but England as a whole doesn't have a 522 00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:07,680 Speaker 2: strong sense of itself as separate from Britain in the 523 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:09,200 Speaker 2: way Scotland and Wales do. 524 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:13,480 Speaker 1: To an American, I would say that the English identity 525 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,600 Speaker 1: and correct me if I'm wrong, seems to be exclusively 526 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:20,280 Speaker 1: bunting and baking in a tent and having a man 527 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:22,480 Speaker 1: to poke at your bread and tell you if it's 528 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:23,360 Speaker 1: overproofd or not. 529 00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:26,920 Speaker 2: Well, that certainly is a big part of identity, of 530 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:30,280 Speaker 2: our identity, but that program, confusingly is not called the 531 00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:35,000 Speaker 2: Great English Bacoff. So we have this issue Englishness and 532 00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:39,840 Speaker 2: Britishness where they're distinct. For Scott's, even the ones that 533 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:42,840 Speaker 2: don't want Scotland to become an independent country even Scotts 534 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,280 Speaker 2: in favor of the union, still have a strong sense 535 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:49,640 Speaker 2: of what is different about Scotland from England, What Scotland's 536 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:53,680 Speaker 2: unique identity within Britain is England I don't think has 537 00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:57,400 Speaker 2: that sense. So England very much turns backward on its 538 00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 2: own history, and at the center of its history is 539 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 2: it's monarchy. So I think, I say early in the book, 540 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 2: the monarchy is what England has instead of a sense 541 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 2: of identity, and that his simplification. And actually there are 542 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:14,840 Speaker 2: many senses of identity in England, but no real unifying one. 543 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:18,320 Speaker 2: But the monarchy then becomes a sort of symbol of 544 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:22,960 Speaker 2: a unifying one, even for those that are against the monarchy. 545 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:26,400 Speaker 2: If you see what I mean. There it is at 546 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:28,479 Speaker 2: the center of us. Whether you like it or not, 547 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:32,800 Speaker 2: it's there. It's why England is so obsessed with its 548 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 2: own heritage, obsessed with looking back, with nostalgia, sort of 549 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,600 Speaker 2: returning to the point about nostalgia being something that people 550 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 2: can invest in more will wholeheartedly than a belief in 551 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:46,160 Speaker 2: a better future. And the Great British Bakeoff is obviously 552 00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:48,880 Speaker 2: part of that, is that its entire esthetic is a 553 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:54,200 Speaker 2: sort of idealized nineteen fifties village England. But England has 554 00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:58,120 Speaker 2: been largely metropolitan since the early part of the nineteenth century, 555 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:03,320 Speaker 2: and yet the typical England archetypal England is about villages. Well, 556 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:06,240 Speaker 2: most people live in big cities in England. We were 557 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:11,720 Speaker 2: the first industrialized nation, and yet we associate ourselves with 558 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:15,560 Speaker 2: rural areas well. That's there's something fundamentally absurd about that. 559 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:19,000 Speaker 2: We should be the most sort of urban focused of 560 00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:22,120 Speaker 2: all the cultures. But no, we think of ourselves as rural, 561 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:26,000 Speaker 2: even though we're patently not. And the monarchy being at 562 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,040 Speaker 2: the center of that is part of it. And we 563 00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:31,960 Speaker 2: feel safe focusing on our monarchy because these days it's 564 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,680 Speaker 2: harmless and powerless, but nevertheless it's sort of all we've 565 00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:38,120 Speaker 2: got is our sort of badge of belonging. 566 00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:41,760 Speaker 1: And forgive me because this book does stop at Queen 567 00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:45,080 Speaker 1: Elizabeth the First, but I'm curious on your read on 568 00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:48,840 Speaker 1: the modern day monarchy. Do you think that that fundamental 569 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:53,040 Speaker 1: nostalgia and fondness for a sort of national story is 570 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:56,120 Speaker 1: enough to keep the monarchy going in the present day. 571 00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 2: I don't know, but I've certainly I have no problem 572 00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:04,600 Speaker 2: with the constitutional monarchy at all, and I think there's 573 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:09,840 Speaker 2: something quite useful about having the figurehead of the country, 574 00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:14,240 Speaker 2: the most important person in the country, not actually being 575 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:17,360 Speaker 2: the person with the power. I think putting the power 576 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,560 Speaker 2: and the sort of dignity of nationhood in the same 577 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:23,600 Speaker 2: person can be problematic. I say that at risk of, 578 00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:28,480 Speaker 2: you know, of straying into topicality again, but I genuinely 579 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:31,640 Speaker 2: think it's useful that the person with the most power 580 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:35,120 Speaker 2: in Britain is the Prime Minister, but they have someone 581 00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:38,560 Speaker 2: else who's nominally their boss. And obviously, if we got 582 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:40,000 Speaker 2: rid of the monarchy, we would have to have a 583 00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:43,240 Speaker 2: new constitution. We'd have to decide whether to have an 584 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:46,840 Speaker 2: executive presidency like in the United States and France, or 585 00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:49,600 Speaker 2: whether you have a president you elect but has little 586 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:52,320 Speaker 2: more power than a monarch. And you know, I don't 587 00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:54,800 Speaker 2: know how well we cope with that, because if you've 588 00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:57,160 Speaker 2: won an election, you should have power, shouldn't you. Or 589 00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:59,360 Speaker 2: you know that we'd have to face up to all 590 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:02,640 Speaker 2: of that. And my fear is that we're going through 591 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:06,320 Speaker 2: a tricky time ourselves here with faith in politicians and 592 00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:09,040 Speaker 2: politics is a sort of all time low, and this 593 00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:11,880 Speaker 2: isn't really the best time to frame a new constitution. 594 00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:14,520 Speaker 1: It would leave you so vulnerable to the vikings. 595 00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:21,600 Speaker 2: Excellent point, yes, and then we'd only have ourselves to blame. 596 00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:27,280 Speaker 1: Well, unruly. The Ridiculous History of England's Kings and Queens 597 00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:30,640 Speaker 1: is out in paperback in the UK and across the Pond. 598 00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:33,320 Speaker 1: You should absolutely pick it up. It is a delightful 599 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:36,640 Speaker 1: and such a smart read. David Mitchell, I can't thank 600 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:38,520 Speaker 1: you again enough for this conversation. 601 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:41,560 Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Thank you very much for having me. 602 00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:42,560 Speaker 2: I've really enjoyed it. 603 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:55,840 Speaker 1: Noble Blood is a production of iHeartRadio and Grim and 604 00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:59,920 Speaker 1: Mild from Aaron Mankey. Noble Blood is hosted by me Dana, 605 00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 1: with additional writing and research by Hannah Johnston, Hannahswick, Courtney Sender, 606 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:09,920 Speaker 1: Amy Hit and Julia Milani. The show is edited and 607 00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:15,840 Speaker 1: produced by Jesse Funk, with supervising producerrima Ill Kali and 608 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:20,440 Speaker 1: executive producers Aaron Manke, Trevor Young and Matt Frederick. For 609 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:26,000 Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 610 00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:29,520 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.