1 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and Welcome to Stuff 2 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:08,959 Speaker 1: I've Never Told You, production of I Heart Radios How 3 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 1: Stuff Works. For today's classic, we bring you the second 4 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:26,160 Speaker 1: part of Women in Comics. Um so, So the first 5 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:30,319 Speaker 1: part was all about the Golden Age and you know 6 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:34,280 Speaker 1: those first the first women making comics, and now we're 7 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:38,920 Speaker 1: coming more into our more modern times and what's shaped 8 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:42,199 Speaker 1: it the industry and women in the industry in our 9 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:47,240 Speaker 1: more recent past present. Modern times are more recent times, 10 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 1: recent times that way, more recent times, and this is 11 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:54,560 Speaker 1: kind of in dandem with the episode we just did 12 00:00:55,440 --> 00:00:58,000 Speaker 1: Birds of Prey. We thought this might be a helpful 13 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 1: supportive peace of information. Actually would be great to provide 14 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:05,760 Speaker 1: context what we talked about in that episode. So we 15 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 1: hope you enjoy Welcome to Stuff, Mom Never Told You 16 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:20,399 Speaker 1: from how Stuff Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to 17 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 1: the podcast. I'm Christin and I'm Caroline, and this is 18 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 1: part two of our two partner on women in Comics 19 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:31,679 Speaker 1: and Cartooning. Because a it would be really challenging to 20 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:35,959 Speaker 1: fit everything about the history and current status of women 21 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:41,480 Speaker 1: in cartooning into one podcast, but b because when we 22 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 1: mentioned that we were going to do this topic, We 23 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:49,280 Speaker 1: got so much positive feedback from stuff Mom Never told 24 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 1: You fans, so I think that people wanted perhaps a 25 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 1: two partner on this. I think they did too, because 26 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 1: I mean one would not be enough, Can Sitterring. When 27 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 1: we asked on Twitter, at Mom's podcast and on Facebook 28 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:13,799 Speaker 1: for people's favorite lady cartoonists and comic book artists, we 29 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:19,639 Speaker 1: received so many names and should it? Should I read 30 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:22,519 Speaker 1: a few, Caroline, Yeah, Let's let's hit some well. One 31 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 1: of the favorites that was mentioned a lot, Noel Stevenson, 32 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 1: Fiona Staples, Kate Beaton of course from harka Vagrant, Gail 33 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 1: Simone from Birds of Prey, from the Comic book World. 34 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:38,960 Speaker 1: We also had Linda Barry, Ross Chast, Katie Cook, Emma Rios, 35 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 1: Emily Carroll, and on and on and on, including Sarah 36 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 1: c Anderson. Yeah, Sarah c Anderson, who sent us a 37 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:52,919 Speaker 1: fabulously sweet letter saying that she had listened to our 38 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:58,640 Speaker 1: our women funny episode and appreciated that We confirmed that yes, 39 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 1: shockingly women and her funny. Uh. And then she said, 40 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:05,960 Speaker 1: have you considered doing an episode on women in comics 41 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:09,080 Speaker 1: and cartooning? And I was able to fire off an 42 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 1: email and tell her, Sarah, we are doing a two parter, 43 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:17,800 Speaker 1: and yet she not only um piped up when we 44 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:19,639 Speaker 1: put it out there on social media about like who 45 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 1: were your favorite cartoonists, but she also was someone that 46 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:26,919 Speaker 1: came recommended, and with her letter to us, she included 47 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 1: uh copies of her comics and they are hilarious and adorable. 48 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:33,720 Speaker 1: And as I told Sarah and in the email to her, 49 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 1: I've actually seen your comics before online. Like I have 50 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 1: chuckled to myself about her strip about wanting to stay 51 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 1: in her in your pajamas, I can fully identify with 52 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 1: that as well as the one about not being able 53 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 1: to pronounce words because you are are bookworm and you've 54 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 1: only read them so you don't know how to say them. Oh, 55 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:57,960 Speaker 1: it's happened to me too. It's embarrassing, it's happened to 56 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 1: me on this podcast. But I come myself with knowing 57 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 1: that well, at least I knew the word yeah, you 58 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 1: knew what it meant, Yeah, I just didn't know how 59 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 1: to say it. But considering though all of the names, 60 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 1: and honestly, those were just a handful of the dozens 61 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 1: and dozens and dozens of names that we've got and 62 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 1: we're compiling all of them into a post at stuff 63 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 1: Mom Never Told You dot com so we can all 64 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 1: share and find new amazing comics and artists. Um. But 65 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 1: it seems like based on this, it's a great time 66 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:35,360 Speaker 1: to be a woman in cartooning or illustrating or comics. 67 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 1: Were kind of blending all of them together for the 68 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 1: purpose of simplicity in this podcast, too Parter, and we 69 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 1: received a number of cartoonists, illustrators, and comic book artists. Um. 70 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 1: And it seems like it's a great time because there 71 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:54,279 Speaker 1: are all these women making all these hilarious and beautiful 72 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:59,599 Speaker 1: and insightful and poignant pieces of work and getting some 73 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 1: high level recognition for it. Yeah. Like Alison Bechdel, for instance, 74 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:07,880 Speaker 1: she created Dikes to Watch out For and Fun Home. 75 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 1: She received a MacArthur grant in and of course Beckdel. 76 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:14,960 Speaker 1: You should recognize her name from the Bechdel test, which 77 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:17,839 Speaker 1: Kristen and I talked about. It's basically the test that 78 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 1: you can put two movies to say, are there at 79 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:22,919 Speaker 1: least two women characters who talked to each other about 80 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:25,760 Speaker 1: something other than men? Yeah, and you would be surprised 81 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:30,160 Speaker 1: how a few films past that test and I actually 82 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 1: read Fun Home after we did that podcast on Bechdel, 83 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 1: and if you haven't read it, it's a fantastic graphic 84 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:41,240 Speaker 1: novel that's actually been turned into a musical now as well, 85 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:43,840 Speaker 1: and I have a feeling it's been optioned for a 86 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 1: film to um. But it's great and you should read 87 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:53,720 Speaker 1: it and revel in her incredible storytelling through droll rings 88 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:58,359 Speaker 1: draw rings well. Also, Ineen Jen Sorenson became the first 89 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 1: woman to ever win the Herb Lack Prize for Political Cartooning, 90 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:06,040 Speaker 1: and we talked a little bit about women in political 91 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:10,240 Speaker 1: and editorial cartoons in part one, really just focusing in 92 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 1: on suffrage cartoons in the early twentieth century, and also 93 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:19,279 Speaker 1: in the past couple of years in the mainstream comic 94 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 1: book industry, there's been a lot of talk and action 95 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:28,800 Speaker 1: regarding women and comics because one of the giant things 96 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:33,279 Speaker 1: that happened is that Marvel writer Jason Aaron received a 97 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:36,359 Speaker 1: lot of praise and a lot of hate from making 98 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:41,400 Speaker 1: Thor a woman. And this is not like creating a 99 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:44,880 Speaker 1: new god or goddess. This is making the character of 100 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:48,120 Speaker 1: Thor a woman instead of a man. Now, and this 101 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 1: is following on the heels of the debut of the 102 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 1: new Miss Marvel now a Pakistani teenager, Kamala Khan. And 103 00:06:56,160 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 1: while all this is going on, you have industry women 104 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 1: like Kelly Sue Deaconic, who is a writer, not an artist, 105 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 1: but was one of the women called out by stuff 106 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 1: Mo'm never told you fans. Um. She retooled female Captain 107 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 1: Marvel to be stronger and more heroic rather than just 108 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:19,680 Speaker 1: set dressing. And Conic has also been really leading the 109 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 1: charge to address gender dynamics within the industry at large. 110 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 1: So there's a lot of conversation, a lot of calling 111 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 1: out of perhaps uh systemic sexism happening, um examinations of 112 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:39,320 Speaker 1: the depiction of female characters in comic books. So this 113 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 1: is definitely an important time for gender and comics and cartoons. Yeah, 114 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 1: because I mean, the creators of Miss Marvel themselves were 115 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:52,120 Speaker 1: shocked at just how popular, just how strong the response 116 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 1: to her was. UM. And for instance, Thor, I mean, 117 00:07:57,080 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 1: if we're talking about how common main women characters are, 118 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:04,560 Speaker 1: Thor is just the eighth Marvel title to feature a 119 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 1: lead female protagonist. So small strides, Yeah, and I mean 120 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 1: small strides indeed, because nonetheless, the capital C comics industry 121 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:20,920 Speaker 1: and its audience does remain overwhelmingly male dominated, and um 122 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:24,080 Speaker 1: Walt Hickey over at the five thirty eight blog did 123 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 1: a really detailed statistical analysis of this and found that 124 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 1: as of August, men out number women nine to one 125 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:36,679 Speaker 1: behind the scenes at both DC and Marvel, and about 126 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:40,320 Speaker 1: the people working on comics in the past year. We're 127 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:45,079 Speaker 1: also white. So not only is there little gender diversity, 128 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:48,959 Speaker 1: there's also little racial diversity as well. And as we 129 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:51,760 Speaker 1: sort of touched on in our part one episode, the 130 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:54,959 Speaker 1: more people that you bring into a medium, the more 131 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 1: different types of people you bring in, the more perspectives 132 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:00,960 Speaker 1: you're going to get. And so obviously that's going to 133 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 1: be a theme of our discussion. But uh, Tim Hanley, 134 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 1: who's a comic historian and researcher, noted that women at 135 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:12,400 Speaker 1: d C and Marvel make up only of colorists and 136 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 1: nearly no letterers. He said, female writers and artists are 137 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:21,440 Speaker 1: sporadic at best, and there are more female editors two 138 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 1: four percent and assistant editors forty point eight percent, but 139 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:29,959 Speaker 1: still lacking in the artist and colorist area. Yeah, I mean, 140 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:33,600 Speaker 1: and those those percentages of the editors and assistant editors 141 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 1: are up since the nineties. Um. But for d C 142 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 1: and Marvel, female characters who recur at least ten times 143 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:45,360 Speaker 1: make up only thirty point nine percent of the DC 144 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 1: universe and thirty point six percent of the Marvel universe. 145 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:51,560 Speaker 1: And so that's one of the reasons why, like you said, 146 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:54,760 Speaker 1: I mean, you bring a greater diversity of people to 147 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 1: the table. Chances are you're going to get a greater 148 00:09:56,840 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 1: diversity of people on the page. But we are really 149 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 1: focusing though on those people at the table, not so 150 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 1: much on the characters on the page, and moving away 151 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:14,240 Speaker 1: from comic books for a moment and into newspapers because yes, 152 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:20,720 Speaker 1: cartoons still exist in newspapers, and yes, newspapers also still exists, UM, 153 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:26,199 Speaker 1: but it's hard to find a woman cartoonist at a newspaper. UM. 154 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 1: New Yorker cartoonist and cartoonist historian LIESA. Donnelly estimates that 155 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 1: there are only two women editorial and political cartoonists drawing 156 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:38,199 Speaker 1: from major newspapers, and at the New Yorker, for instance, 157 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 1: only eight out of the more than fifty cartoonists or women. Yeah, 158 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 1: and we went over to the National Cartoonist Society's web 159 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 1: page to try to do a gender count over there, 160 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:52,600 Speaker 1: and the National Cartoonist Society got to mention in part 161 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 1: one of our comic series talking about how it launched 162 00:10:55,920 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 1: in x but was only open to two men for 163 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 1: the first year until women and some men came to 164 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 1: their defense being like, hey, maybe we should open up 165 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 1: our doors. And as I was going through the website 166 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 1: looking for numbers, I ended up on their history page, 167 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:20,080 Speaker 1: and Caroline, it was just so telling looking at photos 168 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:23,839 Speaker 1: from their history and it's so hard to find a woman. 169 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:26,560 Speaker 1: I mean, obviously in the very early years that it's 170 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:30,560 Speaker 1: all men in the photos. Um So looking at numbers today, 171 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 1: I counted up forty nine women out of more than 172 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:40,600 Speaker 1: six hundred members. So and that's including women like say 173 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:43,640 Speaker 1: Kathy guys White, who created the Kathy comic that we 174 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 1: actually talked about in a podcast a couple of summers ago. 175 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:54,000 Speaker 1: So just for established cartoonists and comic book artists out there, 176 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 1: still it's it is overwhelmingly male dominated. But that's not 177 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:02,800 Speaker 1: to say that women aren't invested in comics, right, I mean, 178 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:04,720 Speaker 1: you know, as again, as we talked about in our 179 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:10,040 Speaker 1: first episode on this, women and girls have been interested 180 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:13,560 Speaker 1: in comics and cartoons since the very beginning. It's only 181 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:17,120 Speaker 1: sort of around World War Two that it became not 182 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 1: so cool for girls to be sort of involved, whether 183 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 1: in the industry itself or in the actual consumption of 184 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 1: comics and cartoons. And so a recent Facebook data survey 185 00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 1: found that forty six percent of self identified comics fans 186 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:40,920 Speaker 1: are women. Now, when I saw that statistic, I wondered 187 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:45,720 Speaker 1: whether some people, say, like comics die hards, the fans 188 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:48,320 Speaker 1: who really consider themselves fans who buy the two issues, 189 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:50,760 Speaker 1: one so that it can remain in its plastic sleeve 190 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:54,040 Speaker 1: and the other that they can actually read, whether they 191 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:56,360 Speaker 1: might sneer a little bit at that percentage, in the 192 00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:59,439 Speaker 1: same way that similar percentages about women and gaming are 193 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 1: often sneer at because oh, well, those women are just 194 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:04,440 Speaker 1: playing Candy Crush. They aren't, you know, up all night 195 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:09,400 Speaker 1: on Xbox Live. Because I have a feeling based on 196 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 1: the kinds of names that we were getting from stuff 197 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:14,960 Speaker 1: I'm never told you fans about their favorite women comic 198 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:17,959 Speaker 1: artists and comic strips. A lot of them are digital, 199 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 1: their web comics, and digital has really changed the current 200 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:25,760 Speaker 1: comics game. Not to say that there there weren't also 201 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 1: plenty of more traditional comic book artists that were called 202 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:32,679 Speaker 1: out as well. Um, but that's one thing that we're 203 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 1: going to talk about later on the show, is about 204 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:40,000 Speaker 1: how digital has, I think, in a really positive way, 205 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:44,480 Speaker 1: not only opened up comic creation to more people, but 206 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:50,319 Speaker 1: also perhaps opened up readership and appreciation and consumption of 207 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 1: comic books to women in a way that we haven't 208 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 1: seen in previous decades. But before we get into all 209 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:00,840 Speaker 1: of that, Caroline, we got to take a break and 210 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:07,559 Speaker 1: we'll come right back. So at the top of the podcast, 211 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:09,840 Speaker 1: you know, we cited a lot of really interesting things 212 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 1: that are happening with women and comics and cartoons today, 213 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 1: but we also have to revisit how we got here, 214 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 1: and a lot of our information is coming from two 215 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:23,160 Speaker 1: great places. One where are the Working Women in Comics? 216 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 1: By Vanetta Rogers, which was featured on news Arama, and 217 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:30,200 Speaker 1: to Wesley Channelt's thesis working the margins Women in the 218 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 1: comic book industry. And so where we are today has 219 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:38,640 Speaker 1: a lot to do with the comics Code of the 220 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 1: late nineteen fifties, whose censorship discouraged a lot of the 221 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 1: material that used to attract a lot of female readers. 222 00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:50,040 Speaker 1: And on top of that it often sanitized female characters 223 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:55,600 Speaker 1: and overly emphasized g rated romance. I mean, before the 224 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:59,320 Speaker 1: Comics Code, women were really getting into some of the racier, 225 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 1: the dark are kinds of comics that Frederick Wortham and 226 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 1: Seduction of the Innocent was out to ban. Now, on 227 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:12,800 Speaker 1: top of that, as we move into the seventies and eighties, 228 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 1: comic book sales move away from the news stand and 229 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:21,400 Speaker 1: you have the growth of direct market systems sales, and 230 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 1: so with that you have the rise of comic book stores, 231 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 1: and these spaces really become I mean, we can all 232 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 1: probably summon up the stereotype of the comic bookstore. It's 233 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 1: kind of like the stereotype of the record store, where 234 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:38,280 Speaker 1: it's mostly guys who are going to challenge you on 235 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:41,720 Speaker 1: how much you really know, especially if you are a 236 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:45,480 Speaker 1: girl walking into those spaces. And for a lot of 237 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:48,720 Speaker 1: girls and women who otherwise would be fans of comics 238 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:50,840 Speaker 1: and would pick one up at the news stand felt 239 00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 1: alienated from walking into a comic book store. Right. Trina Robbins, 240 00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 1: who we cited a lot in the first episode, who's 241 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 1: a cartoonist in a cartoonist historian, in an interview with 242 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 1: collectors Weekly. She talked about this evolution of things moving 243 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 1: out of moving away from the newsstand and into these 244 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:12,080 Speaker 1: comic book stores. She said that they were awful that 245 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 1: women didn't want to go into these spaces because they 246 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 1: were quote like porn stores. Yeah, I mean, I remember 247 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 1: experiencing the same kind of thing in high school when 248 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:24,960 Speaker 1: I started to get interested in graphic novels more so 249 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:30,200 Speaker 1: than traditional comic books. And there was this fantastic comics 250 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 1: store downtown where I grew up, and I wouldn't go 251 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 1: in there though without a friend, because I was too 252 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:40,480 Speaker 1: nervous to talk to the cashier or to ask any 253 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:43,520 Speaker 1: questions at all, because it was very much like if 254 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 1: if I was I mean, I would try to pick 255 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:48,080 Speaker 1: out the right T shirt to wear just to give 256 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:51,240 Speaker 1: myself a little outside cred. And I mean it was 257 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 1: it was an intense kind of thing. So that definitely 258 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:59,240 Speaker 1: rang true in my experience. But if we go back 259 00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 1: though to the sixties and seventies, it is interesting to 260 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:07,240 Speaker 1: see how with Marvel and d C both attempted to 261 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:11,119 Speaker 1: provide more diversity on the page. They did feature a 262 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:15,359 Speaker 1: few more black and female characters. For instance, in nineteen 263 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:19,000 Speaker 1: seventy five, we have the debut of Storm in X Men, 264 00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 1: and that was the first major black heroine, and that 265 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:26,120 Speaker 1: was under Marvel. And then, you know, in our first 266 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:29,520 Speaker 1: episode we talked about how Marvel and DC already weren't 267 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:32,040 Speaker 1: that great in terms of employing women. They lagged behind 268 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:35,120 Speaker 1: their contemporaries, most of whom ended up getting wiped out 269 00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 1: by the Comics Code of the late fifties. But so 270 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:40,919 Speaker 1: in the seventies and eighties, the employment situation for women 271 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:45,960 Speaker 1: was basically non existent. But stan Lee did in the 272 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:50,639 Speaker 1: early nineteen seventies try to attract women to work for him, 273 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:53,400 Speaker 1: but not many of them lasted more than a few years. Yeah, 274 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:57,119 Speaker 1: it didn't really work, and even the hiring process was 275 00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 1: rather controversial. He apparently had to sit the fellows down 276 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:03,639 Speaker 1: and be like, look, guys, we're gonna hire a couple 277 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:07,160 Speaker 1: of women. It's no big deal. We can still make 278 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:12,679 Speaker 1: fart jokes the major fear I do. And that that 279 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:16,879 Speaker 1: and that is my award winning Stanley impression as well. 280 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:19,119 Speaker 1: But you can see though, as that's going on in 281 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:22,679 Speaker 1: the background, and then you also have the direct market 282 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:26,919 Speaker 1: system rising both in terms of production and consumption, it 283 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 1: understandably becomes this highly gendered kind of boys club kind 284 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:35,800 Speaker 1: of thing. Yeah. So while all this is going on, though, 285 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 1: what's really interesting about comics in the nineties sixties is 286 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:45,320 Speaker 1: that it's basically basically like, well, whatever mainstream Marvel and DC, 287 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:50,720 Speaker 1: underground comics with an X is really where it's at. Yeah, this, 288 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:54,160 Speaker 1: I mean, they really were sort of providing a counterculture 289 00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:59,679 Speaker 1: answer to those big superhero comic behee myths. But that 290 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:04,680 Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily mean that women were super welcome in these 291 00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:08,880 Speaker 1: underground groups. Yeah, and this is kind of the unfortunate thing. 292 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:13,280 Speaker 1: I mean, because you have all of these alt newspapers 293 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:17,000 Speaker 1: that are popping up, particularly of course in New York, 294 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 1: but particularly on the West Coast in places like San Francisco, 295 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:23,720 Speaker 1: and so you have our Crumb and others starting to 296 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:27,600 Speaker 1: do these weird kinds of comics, and then you also 297 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:30,000 Speaker 1: have women doing weird kinds of comics. But the guys 298 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 1: were like, ladies, we don't want your weird comics. So um. Nonetheless, though, 299 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:39,239 Speaker 1: Hillary L. Shoot, who wrote Graphic Women, Life, Narrative and 300 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:44,160 Speaker 1: Contemporary Comics, talked about how during the underground comics revolution, 301 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:47,880 Speaker 1: this was the first time women were really using comics 302 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 1: as a form of personal expression, which was especially facilitated 303 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:58,119 Speaker 1: by that kind of experimentation with form and style. But 304 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:00,240 Speaker 1: nonetheless they were kind of having to do it their 305 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:04,520 Speaker 1: own because I mean, the underground scene was I mean, 306 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:07,480 Speaker 1: it was basically an underground boys club as well. Yeah, 307 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 1: we definitely need to get back to Trina Robbin's the 308 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 1: cartoonist and now cartoonist historian Um. In nineteen seventy two, 309 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:18,399 Speaker 1: after the huge success of the first ever all women 310 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:22,919 Speaker 1: comic book anthology called it Ain't Me Babe, Robbins and 311 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 1: others ended up forming the Women's Comics Collective, which is 312 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:29,200 Speaker 1: based in San Francisco. And we should know that that's 313 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:33,680 Speaker 1: women spelled w I M M E N and that's 314 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:37,880 Speaker 1: also comics with an X. And so ladies are doing 315 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:40,800 Speaker 1: it for themselves. Well they have to, yeah, but it 316 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 1: is incredible to see how it Ain't Me Babe immediately 317 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:47,600 Speaker 1: sold out, and so some of these smaller publishing companies 318 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:50,480 Speaker 1: start to pay attention, and some of these all weeklies 319 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 1: start to pay attention. And so you also then though, 320 00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:57,680 Speaker 1: have women being like, well, not only do we make 321 00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:00,640 Speaker 1: this stuff, but we can also publish this stuff ourselves. 322 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:04,720 Speaker 1: So you have for instance, Joyce Farmer and Lynn Chevally 323 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 1: forming publishing company Nanny Goat Productions, which was really started 324 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:13,639 Speaker 1: to give women more of a platform. So, not surprisingly 325 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:17,919 Speaker 1: along those lines, female sexuality is front and center in 326 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:23,400 Speaker 1: a number of these underground comics penned by women, one 327 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 1: of which has a fantastic rhyming title that I can't 328 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 1: say on the podcast, but let's just say it's along 329 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 1: the lines of breasts and vaginas. Yeah, yes, talking about 330 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:39,040 Speaker 1: ladies yeah um. And other women to talk about ladies 331 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:43,120 Speaker 1: um were women including ROBERTA. Gregory and Mary Wings, who 332 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 1: were lesbian comic book artists emerging during this time, and 333 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:50,480 Speaker 1: they pinned things like dynamite damsels and come out comics, etcetera, etcetera. 334 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 1: And apparently this was a really important platform for lesbians 335 00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:58,640 Speaker 1: at the time as well, to be able to tell 336 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 1: their own stories ex us their own sexuality and their 337 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:04,879 Speaker 1: own attractions. And this was something that Trina Robbins was 338 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:08,320 Speaker 1: talking about. And I can't remember which artists she was 339 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:12,480 Speaker 1: calling out, but it was a straight woman who came 340 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:17,080 Speaker 1: up with an idea for a comic about lesbians and like, oh, 341 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:19,960 Speaker 1: we needed depict lesbians. I'll draw this. And then some 342 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:22,480 Speaker 1: lesbians were like, hey, no, you're not going to tell 343 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:25,640 Speaker 1: our stories. And they're like, oh, yeah, absolutely not here, 344 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:29,680 Speaker 1: you do it, make these and so they did. And 345 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:34,639 Speaker 1: so with this, women's profiles really begin to rise, particularly 346 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:39,600 Speaker 1: within these indie circles. And by the time we get 347 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:43,120 Speaker 1: to the nineteen eighties, going back to the mainstream for 348 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:45,840 Speaker 1: the moment, there are still very few women at d 349 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:48,920 Speaker 1: C and Marvel, But in the Sunday Funnies you have 350 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 1: Kathy guys Wife's Kathy comic. You also have Lynn Johnston 351 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:54,879 Speaker 1: with For Better for Worse, which a number of Sminty 352 00:22:54,920 --> 00:23:00,080 Speaker 1: fans called out as well, but really all weeklies were 353 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:03,720 Speaker 1: where it was at. Yeah, because the whole attitude kind 354 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:08,520 Speaker 1: of around women in mainstream comic strips, not to even 355 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 1: get into comic books, was that like, oh, well, why 356 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:14,400 Speaker 1: do we need more why do we need more women's voices? 357 00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:17,680 Speaker 1: That's like a niche group, right, women niche group? Well, 358 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:20,640 Speaker 1: and even thinking about the women in the Sunday Funnies, 359 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:26,200 Speaker 1: there's Kathy who I mean, you know it's Kathy, right, 360 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:30,679 Speaker 1: She's not exactly a revolution of feminist revolutionary. And then 361 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:33,680 Speaker 1: in even in like Lynn Johnson's For Better for worse. 362 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:36,440 Speaker 1: It's usually women in domestic roles, or you have say 363 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:41,359 Speaker 1: Blondie who's the wife, but she's she's sexy, she's she's busty. Yeah, 364 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:43,680 Speaker 1: And I can't remember what sources was coming from, if 365 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 1: I feel like it was in the Collector's Weekly article 366 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:49,159 Speaker 1: that we've cited where someone one of the cartoonists was 367 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:54,400 Speaker 1: talking about how, you know, men's voices are considered neutral 368 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:56,760 Speaker 1: and they're just everyone's voice, and so they can write 369 00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:59,840 Speaker 1: about whatever. Their comic strip can be about men or 370 00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 1: people in general, it can be about whatever, whereas women 371 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:07,959 Speaker 1: almost have to talk about being a woman, what that's like, 372 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:11,640 Speaker 1: because they don't have voices, they don't have the luxury yet, 373 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 1: because there's so few of them, they don't have the 374 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:16,399 Speaker 1: luxury yet of just oh, I'm a woman, but I 375 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:20,119 Speaker 1: happen to be drawing a cartoon strip about whatever, that 376 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:22,679 Speaker 1: they almost have to make it so gendered. Well, and 377 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:26,120 Speaker 1: this was where all weeklies really came in to give 378 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:29,679 Speaker 1: more of a platform, a broader platform even than just 379 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 1: uh these independent comics or zines at the time, for 380 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 1: women like Linda Berry, who I have a feeling a 381 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:41,080 Speaker 1: lot of podcast listeners have been waiting for us to 382 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 1: mention um. She was highly influential in the Alto comic world. 383 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:47,720 Speaker 1: I mean just in general, not just because she was 384 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:51,920 Speaker 1: a woman. She was a massive pioneer, and her series 385 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:56,760 Speaker 1: Ernie Pook's comic at c O M e K was 386 00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:59,399 Speaker 1: kind of her big breakout. She was also fun fact 387 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,600 Speaker 1: best with Matt Graining of the Simpsons, and they were 388 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:04,960 Speaker 1: all kind of, you know, drawing stuff at the same time, 389 00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:07,840 Speaker 1: and he was like, hey, you should, uh, you should 390 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:10,639 Speaker 1: publish this Ernie Pook thing. She's like, all right, fine, 391 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:14,560 Speaker 1: and then it became huge and she's still she's still 392 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:18,679 Speaker 1: making comics today. Well, you also had artists like Nicole 393 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:23,040 Speaker 1: Hollander who did the Sylvia comic, and of course Alison 394 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:25,920 Speaker 1: Bechdel with Dikes to Watch out For, and then Jennifer 395 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 1: Camper with Rude Girls and Dangerous Women. And those are 396 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:32,920 Speaker 1: just a few of the bigger names that were coming 397 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:37,840 Speaker 1: out of the alt and independent comics scene, which leads 398 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:42,240 Speaker 1: us then into the nineties and two thousand's when I 399 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:45,560 Speaker 1: mean we sort of hit the bottom when it comes 400 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:48,840 Speaker 1: to the depiction of women and men as well in 401 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:52,879 Speaker 1: more mainstream superhero kinds of comics. Because this is when 402 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:58,080 Speaker 1: you have these impossibly bust the sexy women and also 403 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:04,359 Speaker 1: these impossibly super muscular ripped dudes who were dominating the 404 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:10,720 Speaker 1: pages of mainstream comics, and it's no wonder then that's 405 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:15,520 Speaker 1: starting in the early nineties. Graphic novels bring so much 406 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:18,239 Speaker 1: relief to the whole thing. It's like, oh wait, oh, 407 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:21,560 Speaker 1: we're back to storytelling, and oh look, it's beautiful artwork 408 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 1: as well, and we don't have these these intense pecks 409 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:29,879 Speaker 1: and breasts everywhere. Yeah, I mean the types of graphic 410 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:32,360 Speaker 1: novels that you know, I think you're referring to. It's 411 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:35,320 Speaker 1: like it's almost like walking into a quiet room after 412 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:38,360 Speaker 1: being screamed at visually. I mean, I remember, I wish 413 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:40,480 Speaker 1: I could remember the name, but I remember one graphic 414 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:43,720 Speaker 1: novel that I read in high school that I borrowed 415 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:47,320 Speaker 1: from a friend that was all about like love and 416 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:52,480 Speaker 1: relationships and it was very like melancholy and sweet. Definitely, 417 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:56,000 Speaker 1: no busty babes or ripped dudes featured in that at all, 418 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,959 Speaker 1: And no offense to any busty babes or ripped dudes listening. Oh, absolutely, 419 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:03,520 Speaker 1: We're purely talking about the ones that are on paper. Yes, Um, 420 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:07,639 Speaker 1: so it was a really big deal. Then that mouse 421 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:12,640 Speaker 1: by Art Spiegelman wins the Pulitzer, and because of that, 422 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:16,160 Speaker 1: graphic novels all of a sudden get the attention from 423 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:21,240 Speaker 1: all of these publishers being like, oh, well, graphic novels, okay, 424 00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:24,199 Speaker 1: this must be this must be important. So sort of 425 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:26,800 Speaker 1: on the heels of that, you have a lot of 426 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 1: attention being paid to mar Jane's Strappi for persepolis Um, 427 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:33,960 Speaker 1: which was another favorite called out by a lot of 428 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 1: Sminty fans um, as well as Esther Pearl Watson's Unlovable 429 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:43,320 Speaker 1: And as we move back into the mainstream and into 430 00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 1: comic books, in gayl Simons Birds of Prey launches at 431 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:54,160 Speaker 1: d C, and Simone is responsible for coining the term 432 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:56,480 Speaker 1: that Kristen and I have mentioned before in the podcast 433 00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:01,760 Speaker 1: Women in Refrigerators. Kristen, you care to define the sure? Essentially, 434 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:06,720 Speaker 1: it's a catchphrase that someone developed to highlight the disposability 435 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:10,520 Speaker 1: of so many female characters, even strong female characters in 436 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:13,240 Speaker 1: comic books. It's essentially like they would get to a 437 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:15,919 Speaker 1: point to where they were almost too strong for the plot, 438 00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 1: and they would sometimes literally and sometimes metaphorically be tossed 439 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:24,760 Speaker 1: into a refrigerator and done away with ye make way 440 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:27,520 Speaker 1: for a new busty babe. But they're disposable, so there. 441 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:29,840 Speaker 1: Their death is just part of the plot. But Birds 442 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:32,760 Speaker 1: of Prey was and is really cool because this was 443 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 1: an all female superhero group. So women were kind of like, yes, finally, 444 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 1: and yeah they're busty. Sure they're busty, but they were 445 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:44,240 Speaker 1: women grime fighters. And it seemed like Birds of Prey 446 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:47,760 Speaker 1: started to mark a turning point and hey, let's pay 447 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:52,120 Speaker 1: more attention to some ladies on the page. And then 448 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 1: in the late ninety nineties we see Japanese manga become 449 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:58,800 Speaker 1: a huge crossover hit in America. And I don't know 450 00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:02,920 Speaker 1: that anime or manga's popularity has dwindled at all, No, 451 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:09,040 Speaker 1: but it probably opened up more girl readers and consumers 452 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:13,920 Speaker 1: to animation, cartoons, illustration, etcetera. And and we should probably 453 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:15,960 Speaker 1: go back at some point end to vote an episode 454 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:19,480 Speaker 1: to manga. I know a number of fans uh called 455 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:23,360 Speaker 1: out a number of female manga artists that they really love, 456 00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:27,080 Speaker 1: And we've gotten requests before to look at gender dynamics 457 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:30,560 Speaker 1: in manga and anime, so that's something to look forward 458 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:35,600 Speaker 1: to later in the year, um, but now moving more 459 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:39,920 Speaker 1: to today. Yes, it's clear that Marvel and DC are 460 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:43,240 Speaker 1: are attempting to get a little women friendlier, but there's 461 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:45,479 Speaker 1: still plenty of progress to be made, and there are 462 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:49,680 Speaker 1: also some women in the industry who are a little 463 00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:54,160 Speaker 1: tired of the conversation. Yeah. Christina Strain, who's a colorist 464 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:59,680 Speaker 1: for Marvel Comics, was basically saying that, um, you know, 465 00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:03,320 Speaker 1: you guys are all creating this controversy. The media won't 466 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:07,360 Speaker 1: stop talking about the lack of women in the comics industry, 467 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:10,040 Speaker 1: and it just makes it worse for everybody. She said, 468 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:13,240 Speaker 1: right now, there's a swell of ill will towards men 469 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:17,200 Speaker 1: in comics, and she says she gets it, but quote, 470 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,680 Speaker 1: it's furthering the stereotype that comics will be incredibly hostile 471 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,080 Speaker 1: towards women, when that's just not at all the truth. 472 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:26,360 Speaker 1: Comics are about skill. If you're talented and you're able 473 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:28,400 Speaker 1: to work with a team to create awesome comics, you 474 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:32,480 Speaker 1: will get hired. And well, I totally see where h 475 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 1: Strain is coming from, and I know that it must 476 00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:38,360 Speaker 1: be frustrating as a woman who was in an often 477 00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 1: criticized industry to continue to hear, Oh, your industry is 478 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:45,360 Speaker 1: terrible for people like you. I mean, I see where 479 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:48,680 Speaker 1: she's coming from, but I still think, Okay, well, if 480 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:52,040 Speaker 1: it were just about skill, would we not have more 481 00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:55,440 Speaker 1: women in the industry in general? Yeah? Well, I mean, 482 00:30:55,600 --> 00:31:00,040 Speaker 1: well then there's a question of pipeline of well to 483 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:04,520 Speaker 1: be it's the perception of hostility that stopping skilled and 484 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:08,840 Speaker 1: talented women for even going for it because they don't 485 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:11,480 Speaker 1: even want to have to possibly deal with that too. 486 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:14,160 Speaker 1: So I mean, I don't think it's I mean, I 487 00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:17,080 Speaker 1: don't think these issues are ever just as simple as well, 488 00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:21,160 Speaker 1: it's just skill, it's just talent, and that's it. I mean, 489 00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:26,200 Speaker 1: clearly there are problems with perception in general. This was 490 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:29,600 Speaker 1: something that Terry Moore, who's a self publisher UM highlighted 491 00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:33,800 Speaker 1: talking about this, UM acknowledging yes, there has certainly been 492 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:37,040 Speaker 1: a lot more material out there aim towards male readers, 493 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:41,520 Speaker 1: and unfortunately, he said, most of the public thinks comics 494 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:44,920 Speaker 1: are only about superheroes and action oriented characters. Those of 495 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:49,640 Speaker 1: us who read them though, no different. And I think 496 00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:52,720 Speaker 1: that that's starting to become more and more of a 497 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:58,040 Speaker 1: theme as the digital world becomes revolutionizes the comic book 498 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:02,080 Speaker 1: industry obviously, because print published in general is on the decline, 499 00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:06,360 Speaker 1: and with the rise of digital it seems like more 500 00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:10,960 Speaker 1: women are coming to comics through that, whether that's by 501 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:14,120 Speaker 1: making them or by consuming them. Yeah, I mean I 502 00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 1: can say that personally, I have never been I mean, 503 00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:20,600 Speaker 1: aside from chasing down Brenda Starr in the newspaper every 504 00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:22,600 Speaker 1: day when the paper came to my parents house when 505 00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:24,760 Speaker 1: I was in middle school, I've never been a huge 506 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:29,320 Speaker 1: consumer of comics, comic strips, comic books, whatever, um. But 507 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:33,200 Speaker 1: in more recent years, over the past couple of years, 508 00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:37,080 Speaker 1: I have loved a bunch of different digital comics, things 509 00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:42,120 Speaker 1: that women are doing that wouldn't be considered traditional comic 510 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:44,120 Speaker 1: books or comic strips or things like that, but they're 511 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:47,280 Speaker 1: telling a really personal life story, like Ali Brush with 512 00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:49,360 Speaker 1: Hyperbole and a half, where she's dealing with a very 513 00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:52,600 Speaker 1: serious topic, which is depression, but she's illustrating it in 514 00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:56,360 Speaker 1: such an adorable and accessible way that it makes it 515 00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:58,880 Speaker 1: entertaining and you sort of get a slice of someone's 516 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:01,240 Speaker 1: life in the process. Well, it interesting too to see 517 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:05,520 Speaker 1: how it's a lot of these people making web comics 518 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:09,840 Speaker 1: and developing a digital following and then they're coming into print. 519 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:13,920 Speaker 1: It's kind of the reverse um but notable to the 520 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:17,280 Speaker 1: going back to Miss Marvel for instance. The sales of 521 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:23,640 Speaker 1: that have been beyond expectation, and especially on digital um 522 00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:27,600 Speaker 1: And there was a recent survey out of Comics oology 523 00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:31,000 Speaker 1: which found a growing female comic readership on you Guessed 524 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:35,160 Speaker 1: It digital platforms. So interesting to see how that's happening. 525 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:39,440 Speaker 1: And there are in addition to hyperbole and a half, 526 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:44,240 Speaker 1: there are so many women penned web comics out there 527 00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:48,240 Speaker 1: to get to know and love online, such as Noel 528 00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:52,560 Speaker 1: Stevenson Knew I mentioned earlier with Pneumona, Kate Beacon's Heart 529 00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:57,400 Speaker 1: of Vagrant which is hilarious, Spiked Troutman's templar Arizona, Fiona 530 00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:01,520 Speaker 1: Staples who co created with Brian cavon Saga series, and 531 00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:05,440 Speaker 1: then Kate Leth with Kate or Die, and so many others. 532 00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:07,280 Speaker 1: Like I said, if you head over to Stepman Never 533 00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:09,600 Speaker 1: told You dot com, we're going to compile all of 534 00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:12,920 Speaker 1: your suggestions with links to all of the web comics 535 00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:16,560 Speaker 1: or the comic book artists sites so that you can 536 00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:20,800 Speaker 1: check them out and see what women are doing and drawing. 537 00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:25,600 Speaker 1: Because the answer is so much. So what do you think, Caroline, 538 00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:30,680 Speaker 1: from going from Rose O'Neill in the late eighteen hundreds 539 00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:35,120 Speaker 1: all the way up to say an Ali Brush today, 540 00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:38,600 Speaker 1: what what do you think is the status of women 541 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:42,319 Speaker 1: in cartoons? Well, I do really think it's interesting to 542 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:45,880 Speaker 1: watch this rise and fall that has seemed to happen 543 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:49,040 Speaker 1: over the past hundred or so years, because when O'Neil 544 00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:55,400 Speaker 1: was popular with her qup drawings, um, it wasn't unusual 545 00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:59,320 Speaker 1: or unexpected for girls and women to enjoy that type 546 00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:02,520 Speaker 1: of art and that type of medium and and collect 547 00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:05,799 Speaker 1: them and color them in themselves. And then we hit 548 00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:09,200 Speaker 1: this point in in and after World War Two where 549 00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:12,920 Speaker 1: gender and gender divisions were so important and everything had 550 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:15,400 Speaker 1: to be black and white, and women were sort of 551 00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:17,839 Speaker 1: pushed aside and like, hey, this isn't a girly thing 552 00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:20,440 Speaker 1: to do. This is all action and adventure and superheroes 553 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:23,440 Speaker 1: and fighting Hitler. This isn't for you to enjoy. And 554 00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:25,480 Speaker 1: so it's really nice and interesting and reassuring to see 555 00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:28,640 Speaker 1: that with the rise of the digital medium and more 556 00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:32,000 Speaker 1: people relying on it, that more women now not only 557 00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:36,640 Speaker 1: have access to comics around the world, but they can 558 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:39,359 Speaker 1: create their own and give voice to something that other 559 00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:41,719 Speaker 1: people can relate to, Like in the sixties when we 560 00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:46,960 Speaker 1: had that comics with an ex revolution, and women, especially 561 00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:49,640 Speaker 1: lesbian women, could finally say, here's my story. I want 562 00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:52,000 Speaker 1: to tell you my story in my own words. Now 563 00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:54,480 Speaker 1: you can have women like Ali Brash telling her story. No, 564 00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:56,959 Speaker 1: I'm going to tell you what depression is like, and 565 00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:00,000 Speaker 1: so many girls and women out there can say, oh, 566 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:04,000 Speaker 1: I feel that way too well, and considering too the 567 00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:07,880 Speaker 1: delight and fandom that was sparked when we just asked 568 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:11,759 Speaker 1: folks for recommendations and their favorites. It also seems to 569 00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:15,359 Speaker 1: be hearkening back to the time in the late teen 570 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:18,040 Speaker 1: hundreds in the early nineteen hundreds that Tina Robbins talked about, 571 00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:21,840 Speaker 1: or Trina Robbins excuse me, talked about where you would 572 00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:26,279 Speaker 1: have I mean, where these women cartoonists were superstars and 573 00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:28,960 Speaker 1: people would collect them in scrap books. And no, we 574 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:30,960 Speaker 1: don't need them in scrap books anymore. But they're pinned 575 00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:34,359 Speaker 1: all over Pinterest now exactly. And they these women are 576 00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:38,600 Speaker 1: attracting you know, they're their own fans. So I think 577 00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:43,040 Speaker 1: there's obviously and almost always still progress to be made. 578 00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:46,760 Speaker 1: But I think it's a pretty good time. Yeah, any 579 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:49,680 Speaker 1: time that women can share their stories in their own voices. 580 00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:53,640 Speaker 1: I mean it stinks that it always seems to have 581 00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:56,399 Speaker 1: to be through the underground, you know, and through their 582 00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:59,360 Speaker 1: own publishing memes, and it's not through something like d C. 583 00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:01,839 Speaker 1: But I like even their strides are being made. Oh 584 00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:05,640 Speaker 1: absolutely absolutely, And it's not going back to to Sarah 585 00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:09,879 Speaker 1: see Anderson. Not only stories but also humor. Yeah, so 586 00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:14,960 Speaker 1: many funny ladies. So now we want to hear from you. 587 00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:19,759 Speaker 1: Who are your favorites? Whose names did we overlook? There 588 00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:22,399 Speaker 1: were Again, there were so many suggestions that we got 589 00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:26,200 Speaker 1: we did not have time to read out every single one. Um, 590 00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:30,160 Speaker 1: So if you are a fan or a creator, we 591 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:32,839 Speaker 1: would love to hear from you. Mom Stuff at how 592 00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:35,600 Speaker 1: stuff works dot com is our email address. You can 593 00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:38,480 Speaker 1: tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or messages on Facebook, 594 00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:40,440 Speaker 1: and we've got a couple of messages to share with 595 00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:47,960 Speaker 1: you right now. Well, I've got a letter here from 596 00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:51,760 Speaker 1: Laurie about our episode on Night Shift Moms. She says, 597 00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:54,640 Speaker 1: I've been working the night shift for over twenty eight years. 598 00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:57,120 Speaker 1: I started out doing it when I was just nineteen, 599 00:37:57,200 --> 00:37:59,080 Speaker 1: thinking that it would be a fun adventure, and it 600 00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:02,600 Speaker 1: really was. I work in emergency rooms as a respiratory 601 00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:05,400 Speaker 1: care practitioner. After I got married to my high school 602 00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:07,759 Speaker 1: sweetheart at twenty three, I continued the job because it 603 00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:10,200 Speaker 1: also paid well, and we had only one car and 604 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:12,759 Speaker 1: a large college debt, so I would drive to work 605 00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:14,640 Speaker 1: at night and pass the car keys to my husband 606 00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:16,719 Speaker 1: in the morning so he could go to college. Then 607 00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:18,480 Speaker 1: at twenty five, I had my first child and we 608 00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:21,440 Speaker 1: couldn't afford childcare, so I continued the night shift and 609 00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:24,320 Speaker 1: passed the keys and the baby with each shift change. 610 00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:26,640 Speaker 1: I felt that my husband got the better deal there. 611 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:28,600 Speaker 1: He just had to feed the baby and put him 612 00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:30,160 Speaker 1: into bed at night, But when I got home I 613 00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:32,840 Speaker 1: was only napping when he napped, and then back to 614 00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:35,400 Speaker 1: work again. But when the second child came along two 615 00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:37,840 Speaker 1: years later, I was averaging about three hours of sleep 616 00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:40,239 Speaker 1: a day, but felt like the women you mentioned in 617 00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:42,839 Speaker 1: your program that at least my baby saw me during 618 00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:44,640 Speaker 1: the day and we never had to deal with sitters 619 00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:48,320 Speaker 1: and childcare issues. Over the years, something ended up happening 620 00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:51,759 Speaker 1: to me as well. My circadian rhythm moved. I was 621 00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:54,319 Speaker 1: now hardwired to being up at night. I discussed this 622 00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:56,440 Speaker 1: with my physician, and she felt that I shouldn't flip 623 00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:58,839 Speaker 1: my schedule back and forth, as that may cause more 624 00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:02,680 Speaker 1: harmed my system. So to this day, I work seven 625 00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:05,640 Speaker 1: on seven off and I don't flip my clock back 626 00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:07,680 Speaker 1: to the day shift. When I'm off, I get a 627 00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:10,080 Speaker 1: lot done at night, catch up on the laundry, another 628 00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:14,560 Speaker 1: quiet housework, and grocery shopping is a dream. I agree 629 00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:17,080 Speaker 1: that working the night shift has some disadvantages. I did 630 00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:19,279 Speaker 1: have a cancer scare when I was twenty nine, of 631 00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:21,799 Speaker 1: the thyroid variety, but it was caught early and I'm 632 00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:24,480 Speaker 1: fine now. Also, my husband has never liked that I 633 00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:26,960 Speaker 1: work the night shift. He understands this, but he misses me, 634 00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:29,640 Speaker 1: and I miss him too. We've been married twenty four years, 635 00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:31,720 Speaker 1: and I kind of believe that having to be away 636 00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:35,200 Speaker 1: from him may for us have strengthened our relationship. I 637 00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:37,440 Speaker 1: always have interesting things to talk to him about on 638 00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:39,680 Speaker 1: my week off, and we do get every other week 639 00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:41,880 Speaker 1: to hang out together, and if there's something special we 640 00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:45,160 Speaker 1: want to do, I will get up early to accommodate him. 641 00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:48,000 Speaker 1: For me, I don't know any different. My earliest memories 642 00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:51,440 Speaker 1: are being up at night. Maybe I'm one of those people. 643 00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:53,560 Speaker 1: The hardest thing for me, and I'm sure you touched 644 00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:55,440 Speaker 1: on this, was that it's hard to have friends when 645 00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:57,759 Speaker 1: you work the night shift. I have a few, but 646 00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:00,560 Speaker 1: it seems like I rarely see them because of my schedule. 647 00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:02,480 Speaker 1: I just thought you'd like to hear from someone who 648 00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:04,400 Speaker 1: has done this all her life, and even with all 649 00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:06,680 Speaker 1: the hardships that may have caused sleepless days in a 650 00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:09,480 Speaker 1: grumpy husband, I still feel that what I did has 651 00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:12,080 Speaker 1: been the best thing I could have done for my family. 652 00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:17,800 Speaker 1: I think I'll always be a night bird. So thanks, Lorie. Well. 653 00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:20,520 Speaker 1: I have a letter here from Janna. She says, my 654 00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:22,799 Speaker 1: mom has been a nurse for twenty five years and 655 00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:25,120 Speaker 1: has worked both day and night shifts in that time. 656 00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:27,879 Speaker 1: She does twelve hour shifts and commutes about an hour 657 00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:29,520 Speaker 1: each way, so I did not get a lot of 658 00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:32,439 Speaker 1: time with her growing up. It was especially hard during 659 00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:35,960 Speaker 1: my teen years when she was working almost exclusively nightshifts. 660 00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:39,600 Speaker 1: A mix of my tired mother and teenage hormonal drama 661 00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:42,200 Speaker 1: was a bit of a recipe for disaster. When it 662 00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:44,560 Speaker 1: came to sleepovers. Everyone else could have them but me. 663 00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:47,719 Speaker 1: The horror now that I'm in my mid twenties. I 664 00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:50,239 Speaker 1: see the sacrifices that she made for me and my dad. 665 00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:52,680 Speaker 1: She works so hard to be the best provider and 666 00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:55,520 Speaker 1: mom she could be. I'm so thankful for her dedication. 667 00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:58,000 Speaker 1: She truly taught me what it means to work hard 668 00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:00,960 Speaker 1: and to earn what you get. Thanks for your salute 669 00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:03,880 Speaker 1: to the unsung heroes who work well we sleep. So 670 00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:07,040 Speaker 1: thank you, Jennifer right Anne, and thanks to everybody who's 671 00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:09,560 Speaker 1: written into us mom stuff at how stuff works dot 672 00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:11,839 Speaker 1: com is our email address and for links to all 673 00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:14,800 Speaker 1: of our social media as well as all of our blogs, videos, 674 00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:18,319 Speaker 1: and podcast with our sources so you can learn more 675 00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:21,959 Speaker 1: about women and the history of cartooning. Head on over 676 00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:28,719 Speaker 1: to stuff Mom Never Told You dot com for more 677 00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:31,040 Speaker 1: on this and thousands of other topics. Is it how 678 00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:39,960 Speaker 1: stuff works dot com