1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 1: Welcome to Unaddictioned the podcast. My name is doctor Zinga Harrison. 2 00:00:07,400 --> 00:00:10,680 Speaker 1: I'm a board certified psychiatrist with a specialty in addiction 3 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:15,480 Speaker 1: medicine and co founder and chief medical officer of Eleanor Health. 4 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:19,360 Speaker 1: On this podcast, we explore the paths that can lead 5 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:23,880 Speaker 1: to addiction and the infinite paths that can lead to recovery. 6 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 1: Our guests are sharing their own experiences, the tools that 7 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 1: have helped them along the way, and the formulas that 8 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:35,080 Speaker 1: allow them to thrive in recovery one day at a time. 9 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:42,240 Speaker 2: Today we have Derek Brown on the podcast and listen. 10 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:45,240 Speaker 1: I always love when I learned something new, and today 11 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 1: was no disappointment. I was out here calling no alcohol 12 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:53,120 Speaker 1: cocktails mocktails, but did you know there's a difference. Derek 13 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:55,600 Speaker 1: is going to teach us all about it, So before 14 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 1: we get into it, let me tell you a little 15 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 1: bit about him. Derek Brown is the author of Mindful Mixology, 16 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:05,600 Speaker 1: a comprehensive guide to know and low alcohol cocktails, and 17 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 1: founder of Positive Damage, Inc. A company dedicated to creating 18 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 1: a culture of mindful drinking and making room for everyone 19 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:16,559 Speaker 1: at the bar with delicious, no and low alcohol drinks. 20 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 1: Derek Welcome to Unaddictioned. Derek, super excited to have you 21 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 1: on the podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. 22 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:27,479 Speaker 3: Well, thank you for inviting me. Glad to be here. 23 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:30,720 Speaker 1: This is Unaddictioned the podcast. We use it to raise 24 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:34,560 Speaker 1: awareness of the book An Addiction six Mind Changing Conversations 25 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 1: to Save a Life, which is my first book. And 26 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:40,320 Speaker 1: so at the beginning I always tell every guest this 27 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:42,600 Speaker 1: is a sneak peek to the final exam. 28 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 2: At the end of. 29 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 1: This conversation, I'm going to ask you one question, and 30 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 1: it is what are the things we think we know 31 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:55,080 Speaker 1: about addiction that we need to unlearn? What are the 32 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:58,800 Speaker 1: stigmas that we need to undo, and what are the 33 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 1: conversations that we need to uncover to really get us 34 00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 1: on a different path as far as this addiction crisis 35 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:08,480 Speaker 1: is concerned. And so at the end of this episode, 36 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:10,760 Speaker 1: I would love to hear from you if there was 37 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 1: one thing you want people to unlearn, undo or a 38 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:16,800 Speaker 1: conversation to uncover. 39 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 2: What would it be great? All right? So before we 40 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:23,680 Speaker 2: get into all of that, can you just tell us 41 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 2: who you are and how you came to be who 42 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 2: you are today and have the life you have today? 43 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:33,400 Speaker 3: Great? Yeah, just a quick overview of my entire life. 44 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 3: We'll do it as fast as possible. 45 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 2: As like a psychiatrist. 46 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:43,880 Speaker 3: Right. So, I think that there's a few ways to 47 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 3: enter this, and the easiest way is to say that 48 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:52,919 Speaker 3: alcohol is something that has shaped my entire life. So 49 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:57,640 Speaker 3: that begins when I'm very young, when my father is 50 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 3: self identified alcoholic and my sister passes away in a 51 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 3: drunk driving accident. Oh man, As I get older, I 52 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:14,080 Speaker 3: start drinking and it find it's a way to cover 53 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 3: my anxiety. And honestly, I just kind of learned how 54 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 3: to drink from the restaurant and hospitality industry that I 55 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:24,359 Speaker 3: was a part of. I started when I was sixteen 56 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 3: years old, and so it became very normal for me 57 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:32,919 Speaker 3: to drink in a way that most human beings don't 58 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:36,200 Speaker 3: or shouldn't, be clear, And so I learned from grizzled 59 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 3: old line cooks and lifetime waitresses, and you know, I 60 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 3: became well. I was every position you could imagine in 61 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 3: a restaurant or bar, and it led me to a 62 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 3: fairly vampiric lifestyle at some point where I was like, 63 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 3: you know, drinking during work, after work till in the morning. 64 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 3: You know, and then I would sleep until about three, 65 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:02,119 Speaker 3: get up for work usually about fifteen minutes late, and 66 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:05,240 Speaker 3: then start the whole thing, you know, rinse and repeat. 67 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:07,880 Speaker 3: And so it got to the point where, you know, 68 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:12,280 Speaker 3: I was doing really well in terms of my recognition 69 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 3: as a bartender. You know, in twenty fifteen, I was 70 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:19,839 Speaker 3: named Best Bartender in America. In twenty seventeen, my cocktail 71 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:22,240 Speaker 3: bar of the Columbia Room won Best American Cocktail Bar. 72 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 2: Dang, I didn't know. I'm on here with Light Bar Royalty. 73 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 3: Yeah. So, and and that's it. I actually, you know, 74 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:34,839 Speaker 3: at my bar, the Columbiaom I served royalty, we literally 75 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 3: shut down one night for a princess. Then we you know, 76 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 3: I was invited to the White House under the Obama 77 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 3: administration and I did several parties for them, including senior staff. Anyway, 78 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 3: I was. I think this is really important just to 79 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:57,599 Speaker 3: say that alcohol was there at the worst parts of 80 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:00,360 Speaker 3: my life and the best parts of my life. And 81 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:04,279 Speaker 3: so I had a very unique life shaped by alcohol, 82 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 3: which I'm happy to fill in any additional details, but 83 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:07,400 Speaker 3: I'll leave it right there. 84 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 1: No, that was incredible because one of the things like 85 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 1: that I want people to understand, we think about clinically 86 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:18,599 Speaker 1: the development of alcohol use disorder, and we say when 87 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:21,600 Speaker 1: did you take your first drink? It starts way before that, 88 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:24,240 Speaker 1: and that is what you just laid out for us, right, Like, 89 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:27,479 Speaker 1: the role of alcohol in your life started way before 90 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 1: you ever had your first drink. And then we always 91 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 1: only talk about the negative parts of the substance that 92 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:38,600 Speaker 1: a person is using, and we have to recognize these 93 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 1: substances are there and even in your case, are at 94 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:46,839 Speaker 1: the very root and foundation at the highest points of 95 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 1: celebration that you had in your life. And does it 96 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 1: then start to become part of your identity being. 97 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:57,599 Speaker 2: Bartender royalty and bar royalty? 98 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 1: Right, So take us then to the next pace where 99 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 1: now alcohol is not at the center of your existence 100 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:07,599 Speaker 1: and how did we get to that point? 101 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:11,119 Speaker 3: So, yeah, I mean to further drive from that point. 102 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 3: At one point my brother joked and it was about 103 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 3: both of us that without alcohol we wouldn't have friends, hobby, 104 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 3: or a job, and all of that seemed to be true. 105 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:24,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, just serious, right, as opposed to just kidding. 106 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:30,000 Speaker 3: That's right. But so what happened is that was fine 107 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:33,440 Speaker 3: to some degree. During my twenties and thirties, but it 108 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:36,600 Speaker 3: started to catch up with me. And you know, good 109 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 3: genetics is no you know, is no defense against alcohol 110 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 3: use at the level that I was doing it. And 111 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 3: so my health, my stress, anxiety, every kind of aspect 112 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:52,600 Speaker 3: of my life was starting to unravel. You know, I 113 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:55,720 Speaker 3: was getting divorced. Even though I was winning all these awards, 114 00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:59,839 Speaker 3: I felt terrible physically, I didn't feel great. My health 115 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:03,839 Speaker 3: with deteriorating, my finances weren't great. Just like any outcome 116 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 3: you could imagine was starting to fall apart. And I 117 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 3: hadn't quite reached that you know, metaphorical ditch where it 118 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 3: was like that's it. But I knew that I was 119 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 3: at a point that I had to make a change, 120 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 3: and that change actually had a lot to do with 121 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 3: my mental health as well. And I know that a 122 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 3: lot of people, and I'm sure yourself included, understand that 123 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 3: there's a lot of relationship between alcohol use disorder and 124 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 3: mental health. And so, you know, I was at a 125 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 3: point where I really needed help and I wasn't going 126 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 3: to be able to do it for myself anymore, and 127 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 3: so I went to an outpatient program. 128 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 2: How did you find it? 129 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:46,120 Speaker 3: Well, you know, the truth is that you know, like 130 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 3: it sounds like a super rational decision. Like I was 131 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:50,240 Speaker 3: just bouncing around drinking too much and I was like, 132 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 3: oh shit, my finances aren't good. I better No. I mean, 133 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 3: I was one day sitting on the couch with my son, 134 00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:59,239 Speaker 3: who was I don't know, less than two years old, 135 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:02,200 Speaker 3: and I could you know, I was at that at 136 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 3: my end, you know, like I was super depressed. I 137 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 3: was inconsolable, and you know, there's my son looking at 138 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 3: me like Daddy, it's okay, and you know, like what 139 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 3: am I going to do about that? My son is 140 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 3: comforting me? And so I reached out to my mom, 141 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 3: who is a nurse, and she said, well, let's let's 142 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 3: find some programs for you. So I was at a 143 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 3: really bad place, and I think that a lot of 144 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 3: people have been to that place. Some people have not 145 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:33,440 Speaker 3: made it out of that place. And I was lucky 146 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:35,680 Speaker 3: I had my son there. I knew that there was 147 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:39,080 Speaker 3: something else to live for, and so I decided that 148 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:41,880 Speaker 3: I was going to find this program. So so I 149 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 3: went to the emergency room. This is the truth. Well 150 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 3: I don't think people think about that as an option. 151 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 3: Because my mom was like, well, let's just go to 152 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 3: the emergency room. But that's where you have to start, 153 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:52,439 Speaker 3: because right now, this is an emergency. And I think 154 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:55,679 Speaker 3: that a lot of people don't understand that too. Is 155 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:58,720 Speaker 3: that you can if you broke your leg after a 156 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:01,839 Speaker 3: nasty fall, you go to the emergency room. 157 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:03,679 Speaker 2: Wouldn't think twice. 158 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:06,560 Speaker 3: When you break your brain, where do you go? You know, 159 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 3: that's right, to alcohol in a lot of cases, to 160 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:12,080 Speaker 3: substances in a lot of cases. But the truth is 161 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:16,320 Speaker 3: that it's just it's valid, and it's necessary in some 162 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:17,960 Speaker 3: cases to go to the emergency room. So I did, 163 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:20,719 Speaker 3: and then I got checked into an outpatient program. So 164 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:22,600 Speaker 3: I want to make that clear. This wasn't like just 165 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:24,600 Speaker 3: like a really happy, go lucky moment. 166 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 2: There was some I think it's super helpful. 167 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:32,200 Speaker 3: Really some terrible soul scraping moments there that made me 168 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:35,319 Speaker 3: change what my approach was. And so when I saw 169 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 3: it help it was a little I I was pretty embarrassed. Actually, 170 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:42,079 Speaker 3: you know, I was really embarrassed because I thought that 171 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 3: that meant, you know, that I was weak, that I 172 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:47,880 Speaker 3: couldn't handle my liquor, you know, like all these things 173 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 3: that I think are really now I see are really stupid. 174 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 3: But at the time it had been just programmed as 175 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:58,559 Speaker 3: a human, as a man, as that's right. So I 176 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:01,960 Speaker 3: had to just say I was, you know, I couldn't 177 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 3: do it alone. And and the result was that it 178 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:09,280 Speaker 3: opened this entirely different world for me. And that world 179 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 3: was scary too, by the way, you know, like it 180 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 3: wasn't like this this situation where all of a sudden, okay, cool, 181 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:19,160 Speaker 3: you stop drinking, or you address your mental health, which 182 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:24,120 Speaker 3: I was. You know, I was diagnosed with bipolar depression. Okay, 183 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 3: that didn't fix everything, but I started to, you know, 184 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 3: go to therapy. I started using therapy to drugs. After 185 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 3: that door opened, I started concentrating on my health, my 186 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:40,400 Speaker 3: what I eat, my movement. Sleep. I didn't know you 187 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 3: were supposed to sleep. I didn't know that. Like I was. 188 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 3: I was like working in restaurants, and I was like 189 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 3: bragging to people that was like I'm three hours a night. 190 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 3: That's how much I sleep. You know, like I'm some hero. 191 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:52,120 Speaker 2: That's all I need. 192 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:55,320 Speaker 3: Right, But it was that was not good. And now 193 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:58,160 Speaker 3: I'm like, oh, yeah, if I don't get eight hours sleep, 194 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:01,360 Speaker 3: you know that my day is over. So I think that, 195 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 3: you know, I started to address it piece by piece 196 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:08,720 Speaker 3: and and I realized for me that I would not 197 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 3: identify in the same way that my father did as 198 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 3: an alcoholic right. And I think that, you know, there's 199 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:18,320 Speaker 3: people who are familiar with addiction noticed that alcohol use 200 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:21,719 Speaker 3: disorder is a more modern and temporary way to say this, 201 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 3: and alcohol alcoholism is a more colloquial way to use it, 202 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:28,560 Speaker 3: which which people use all the time. But but I 203 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:31,079 Speaker 3: realized I did have alcohol use disorder, but I didn't 204 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 3: have these cravings that meant that I could not drink anymore. 205 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 3: It really was I had to address it from the 206 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 3: inside out. I had to deal with my mental health. 207 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:45,559 Speaker 3: I had to, you know, look at myself in a 208 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:48,959 Speaker 3: way that I never had before and change my habits. 209 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:51,839 Speaker 3: And once that happened, I actually found that I could 210 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 3: drink occasionally and it was not an issue that didn't 211 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:56,880 Speaker 3: It wasn't like one sip and I'm right back there. 212 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 3: But as time went on, It's funny is that I 213 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:04,960 Speaker 3: was feeling so good about my life and the changes 214 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:07,560 Speaker 3: that I made that I decided I didn't need alcohol 215 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 3: at all, that there's nothing that alcohol could do for 216 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:14,280 Speaker 3: me that I couldn't do through other better means for me. 217 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:17,120 Speaker 3: And I want to qualify that because I don't think 218 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 3: it's wrong to drink alcohol. I don't think that people 219 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:22,839 Speaker 3: shouldn't drink. I mean it would be ridiculous. I made 220 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:26,199 Speaker 3: my whole career off of that. What I really am 221 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 3: saying is that for me, this was a better way 222 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:29,200 Speaker 3: to address it. 223 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 1: I love this so much, so I want to click 224 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:35,680 Speaker 1: on a couple of things that you said. One, you 225 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 1: went through a period where you could drink in a 226 00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:44,960 Speaker 1: non disordered way. And AA, which I absolutely love, which 227 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:49,520 Speaker 1: is based completely in abstinence, is what people think of 228 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 1: when they think of recovery from alcohol use disorder, when 229 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:57,280 Speaker 1: in reality, the majority of people recover to control use 230 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:01,080 Speaker 1: as opposed to complete abstinence. But we have to think about, 231 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:05,200 Speaker 1: like you said, this illness alcohol use disorder, just like 232 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:09,559 Speaker 1: every other illness, has mild, moderate, severe, and there will 233 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:12,680 Speaker 1: be some people that have severe alcohol use disorder where 234 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:16,079 Speaker 1: drinking and moderation will never be an option, And there 235 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 1: will be folks like you where drinking and moderation is 236 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:20,720 Speaker 1: an option. 237 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:22,680 Speaker 2: And you're just like, I don't need that option. 238 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:26,320 Speaker 1: Other people will exercise that option, right, And so you're 239 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:31,679 Speaker 1: getting into this concept of the magic formula is what 240 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 1: I call it and everybody's formula. You just made this emphasis, 241 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 1: and I'm going to emphasize your emphasis is theirs. It 242 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 1: is individual and what the components of that formula need 243 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:47,640 Speaker 1: to be are individual. And those components may change over time, 244 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:51,319 Speaker 1: as your life changes over time, as you change over time. 245 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:55,560 Speaker 1: And so let's use that as a springboard into your 246 00:13:55,600 --> 00:14:00,600 Speaker 1: formula that works for you today. And it's with you 247 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:03,840 Speaker 1: saying my life was so good. So like, talk to 248 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 1: us about that joy and that meaning and that purpose 249 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 1: in your life today. And what are the pieces that 250 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:12,960 Speaker 1: you know you have to keep in place for you 251 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 1: to be living in that joy, in that meaning and 252 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 1: that purpose. 253 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:18,480 Speaker 3: I'd love to tell that story. I want to start 254 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:22,480 Speaker 3: with the Crossroadsky first though, because I got this help 255 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:25,600 Speaker 3: and I was in a bit of a crisis, not 256 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 3: in terms of the way I felt internally, I felt great, 257 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 3: and I felt that I was closer than ever to 258 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 3: my family. I felt that I was close to ever 259 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 3: to the person that I wanted to be. But I 260 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 3: had this job, you see, that was drinking for a living. 261 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:44,600 Speaker 3: Ah and I you know, all this time I told 262 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 3: people like, oh yeah, you know, drink this great you know, 263 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:50,720 Speaker 3: high proof rye whiskey or try this cocktail, And then 264 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 3: what was I supposed to do? I'm just kidding, don't 265 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:56,200 Speaker 3: drink at all, you know. And so I had this 266 00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 3: this existential moment where I really had to think about 267 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 3: what I wanted to do with my life. I was like, well, 268 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:03,000 Speaker 3: you know, I'm this decorated bartender. What am I going 269 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 3: to do now? Real estate? You know, like. 270 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 2: No shade to real estate, no shade. 271 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:11,320 Speaker 3: Just real estate. But it's it's very different than bartending. 272 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 3: Maybe it's not. I actually never real real estated before 273 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:19,920 Speaker 3: real estate, but I think that I sat down with 274 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:25,120 Speaker 3: my partner Maria, and some friends and family started having conversations, 275 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 3: and I was really surprised that people were incredibly supportive, 276 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 3: you know, like I did not see that coming. I 277 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:35,520 Speaker 3: did not see that the people in my life would 278 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:36,640 Speaker 3: lift me up so much. 279 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:37,920 Speaker 2: I love that surprise. 280 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 3: Then they said, you don't have to change anything about 281 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 3: your job, you just can do it in a different way. 282 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 3: And this light bulb, lightning flash revelation. Everything happened eureka 283 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:55,000 Speaker 3: moment where I realized I had been telling people all 284 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:57,960 Speaker 3: along to drink better, right, Like whether it's a better 285 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:01,960 Speaker 3: cocktail a better glass of wine in a better whiskey, 286 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:05,840 Speaker 3: and now I could offer another choice. It didn't have 287 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 3: to be all or nothing. I could offer non alcoholic 288 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 3: and low alcoholic cocktails. And so when I realized that, 289 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 3: I decided that, you know, I was going to dive 290 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:20,280 Speaker 3: into that. So when you say you know what works 291 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 3: for you today, there's lots of things that work for me. 292 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 3: But at the core of it was just this revelation 293 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:28,160 Speaker 3: that I can help other people, right and maybe not 294 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 3: people with the exact same situation as me. Sometimes people 295 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:38,040 Speaker 3: drink because it's a habit. Sometimes people drink because it's conformity, 296 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 3: you know, they just want to go with a flow. 297 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 3: And some people sometimes they do it out of peer pressure. 298 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 3: The people who pressure other people into drinking. I've even 299 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 3: done it myself. I can't lie. I've been like, take 300 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 3: this shot, man, come on, let's go. And I you know, so, 301 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:55,000 Speaker 3: maybe that's the world that I could help with, that 302 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:56,800 Speaker 3: I can make a difference in it. And so I 303 00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:02,239 Speaker 3: started talking about mindful drinking, which which is different than recovery, 304 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 3: even if they exist on a spectrum. And so that's 305 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:07,679 Speaker 3: what I've kind of dedicated myself too. I wrote a 306 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:09,159 Speaker 3: book you can kind of see in the back and 307 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 3: people are watching this. It's called Mindful Mixology, A comprehensive 308 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:16,440 Speaker 3: God to Know and Low Alcohol Cocktails that talks a 309 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:18,960 Speaker 3: little bit about my journey and a lot about recipes 310 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:21,639 Speaker 3: and different ingredients you can use to make great know 311 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:26,399 Speaker 3: and low alcohol cocktails. And so that mission is probably 312 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:30,440 Speaker 3: is at the core of my recovery, so to say, 313 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:32,879 Speaker 3: you know, like is being able to help other people. 314 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 3: But also on top of that is the realization of 315 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 3: what's really important in my life, what is important, and 316 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:43,160 Speaker 3: that's family to me. You know, I don't I think 317 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 3: everybody has their thing that's important. Actually, it won't be 318 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:49,159 Speaker 3: family for everybody. Some people have really terrible families that 319 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 3: they don't want to be a part of. I hate 320 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:53,679 Speaker 3: to say it, but yeah, I have a great family 321 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 3: that I love very much and I'm connected to and 322 00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:59,600 Speaker 3: they keep me saying, they keep me motivated and this 323 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 3: mission and I have those things are at the core 324 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:03,840 Speaker 3: of my recovery story. 325 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:06,920 Speaker 2: If you called that, I love it so much. Okay, 326 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:08,320 Speaker 2: Mindful Mixology. 327 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:11,880 Speaker 1: One day we will be in the same physical location 328 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:14,679 Speaker 1: and you'll sign my copy and I'll be like, Hi, 329 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:16,080 Speaker 1: I know him in real life. 330 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 3: Same, please, I want to do It's like we're gonna 331 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:20,479 Speaker 3: trade books. 332 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:25,120 Speaker 1: That's right, that's right, it'll be amazing. I absolutely love 333 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:29,600 Speaker 1: this mindful mixology. So I was watching Drink Masters, which 334 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:34,159 Speaker 1: is mixology competition, and I was watching one of the 335 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:38,840 Speaker 1: episodes and it was revolutionary, and I wish it wasn't revolutionary, 336 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:42,000 Speaker 1: but it was. One of the teams in the competition 337 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 1: made mocktail and. 338 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:45,800 Speaker 2: I was like, yes. 339 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 1: And then when they were describing why they made the mocktail, 340 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 1: the mixologist said bars should be inclusive places. Just because 341 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:56,200 Speaker 1: you don't drink doesn't mean you shouldn't feel welcomed and 342 00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:58,199 Speaker 1: be able to belong in a bar, and this is 343 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:01,120 Speaker 1: why we're doing the mocktail. And I was like, this 344 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:04,760 Speaker 1: is a revolution and I love it so much. And 345 00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:08,439 Speaker 1: so I know low and no alcohol, you are like 346 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:11,840 Speaker 1: the master of mocktails, but will you just tell us 347 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:17,399 Speaker 1: even more beyond that? It sounds like mindful mixology is 348 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:18,760 Speaker 1: more than just the drink. 349 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:22,720 Speaker 3: Sure, a couple of things to add though. The person 350 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:27,240 Speaker 3: who was part of that team is a wonderful human being. 351 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:31,120 Speaker 3: Her name is Lauren Taylor. LP is what she goes by. Yeah, 352 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 3: it was LP and she is a close friend of mine, 353 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:37,920 Speaker 3: and you used to watch my kid when we were 354 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 3: you know, and and and she worked for me in 355 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:43,000 Speaker 3: some of the bars that I had now I have. 356 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:46,720 Speaker 3: I can give no credit for the quality of her 357 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:50,199 Speaker 3: cocktails that are all her own, but we work together, 358 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:53,960 Speaker 3: and she's an exceptional human and she's done some really 359 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:57,520 Speaker 3: great work. And the fact that she spoiler alert by 360 00:19:57,560 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 3: the way, for those people who haven't listened to it closer, 361 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 3: the fact that she won that competition and is able 362 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 3: to hold this idea that you can have great non 363 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:13,960 Speaker 3: alcoholic cocktails is just stellar. I mean, she's such a 364 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:17,399 Speaker 3: great advocate for the category and for her profession and 365 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:19,760 Speaker 3: for what we do, and so I'm proud of her 366 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:22,919 Speaker 3: on so many levels. But I'm also, you know, proud 367 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:24,920 Speaker 3: to know her and call her a friend. 368 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 2: That is amazing. 369 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 1: Will you please make sure she hears this episode and 370 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:34,439 Speaker 1: how I am one of however many people watch this 371 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:38,200 Speaker 1: show that she touched and you get to touch her 372 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:41,920 Speaker 1: like in real life, but like her impact is wide, 373 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:45,280 Speaker 1: and I just want her to hear like that was revolutionary. 374 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:49,840 Speaker 1: As an addiction doctor, I'm always looking for those little 375 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:53,120 Speaker 1: moments that are huge that bring the people I care 376 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:55,760 Speaker 1: for back into the fray, and I was like, this 377 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 1: is one of those moments. 378 00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:00,399 Speaker 3: You got it, I will, Lauren, You're gonna be listened 379 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:04,640 Speaker 3: to this LP. I hope you enjoyed it thus far. 380 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 2: Amazing. 381 00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 3: So yes, So mindful mixology is sort of my method 382 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 3: of making non alcoholic cocktails. And there's a difference between 383 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:19,720 Speaker 3: non alcoholic cocktails and mocktails to some degree. 384 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 2: Oh okay, educate me. 385 00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:23,960 Speaker 3: And the reason I say that is because mocktails very 386 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:26,960 Speaker 3: often kind of get a bad rap. They're sugary, they're sweet, 387 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 3: they're juice based. Not to say that juice is bad, 388 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 3: but they tend to be less in some ways sophisticated 389 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:36,440 Speaker 3: than the cocktail. Now, I think it really doesn't matter. 390 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:39,280 Speaker 3: You like what you like, and so if somebody likes 391 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:42,479 Speaker 3: a Shirley Temple, by all means, enjoy a Shirley Temple, 392 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 3: you know, but. 393 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:46,119 Speaker 2: My kids are thanking you for that. 394 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:49,600 Speaker 3: But a non alcoholic cocktail is slightly different in the 395 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 3: sense that it actually really does have some of the 396 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:55,679 Speaker 3: same qualities as a cocktail with alcohol actually, and so 397 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 3: that's an important thing to recognize too. You talked about 398 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 3: the magic formula that each person has. For some people, 399 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:06,119 Speaker 3: this will be triggering and not a good idea for sure, 400 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:09,880 Speaker 3: right because having a non alcoholic cocktail will remind them 401 00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:12,480 Speaker 3: too much of a life that they've changed or left behind. 402 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:15,840 Speaker 3: But for those of us who are mindful drinkers and 403 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:19,040 Speaker 3: or who feel that we can incorporate no one law 404 00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:23,000 Speaker 3: or at least no alcohol cocktails into our lives, there's 405 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:26,720 Speaker 3: some really wonderful ones out there, and you know, making 406 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 3: them with the same care and quality of ingredients and 407 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 3: thoughtfulness that you would make cocktails with alcohol. You know, 408 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:36,760 Speaker 3: that's really important to me. And so you talked about 409 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:39,119 Speaker 3: that inclusivity at the bar. I mean, one of the 410 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:41,160 Speaker 3: things I say is that what I do is I'm 411 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:45,320 Speaker 3: making room for everybody at the bar, and not everyone 412 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:46,840 Speaker 3: has to show up, but we've got to have a 413 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:49,440 Speaker 3: seat for everyone. And I think that that's really important 414 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:52,520 Speaker 3: for adults to be able to go out and have 415 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:55,760 Speaker 3: a social life. You know. The thing is that is 416 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 3: I know you are well aware of being social is 417 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:03,160 Speaker 3: one of the biggest indicators of health. Right if we're 418 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:03,720 Speaker 3: if we're. 419 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:06,320 Speaker 2: Yes, we are pack animals. 420 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 3: Exactly if we're not out there, you know, having relationships 421 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:10,879 Speaker 3: with people. It doesn't you don't have to be the 422 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:12,880 Speaker 3: most social, you don't have to be a social butterfly, 423 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 3: but you have to have some meaningful connections with people. 424 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:19,480 Speaker 3: And for better or worse, we do that right now 425 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:23,040 Speaker 3: with alcohol, and that's a big part of it. Right 426 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:26,040 Speaker 3: You go out for drinks, you go to wedding, you cheers, 427 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 3: you know, like every social vent. In fact, it's creeping 428 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:32,919 Speaker 3: into more and more. People now drink at the movies, 429 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:33,680 Speaker 3: people drink. 430 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 2: It, baby showers, beer, yoga, yeah, berry, No. 431 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 3: Yeah. The PTA means I don't know, there's just everything's. 432 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:44,320 Speaker 1: Oh know, well they have cocktails at the PTA. Now 433 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:45,400 Speaker 1: that's next level. 434 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:46,880 Speaker 3: At least the fundraiser, Oh. 435 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. The fundraiser is definitely so. 436 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:53,199 Speaker 3: So I think that, you know, I'm not four against that. 437 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:55,200 Speaker 3: I mean, you know, like I'm not going to scold 438 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:57,119 Speaker 3: anybody for where they bring their No. 439 00:23:57,240 --> 00:23:59,919 Speaker 2: The point is that it's everywhere alcohol is ever. 440 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 3: We should have options in all of those cases so 441 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 3: people can make the best decisions for themselves. And I 442 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:10,040 Speaker 3: think that that's really important. So the way to do 443 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:14,880 Speaker 3: that for me is I create really adult, sophisticated non 444 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:17,439 Speaker 3: alcoholic cocktails now I'll tell you something though. I have 445 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:22,320 Speaker 3: a friend, and actually it's my son's one of his 446 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:26,480 Speaker 3: friend's moms who doesn't drink. And I was so excited 447 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:29,679 Speaker 3: to tell her about everything I do because I was like, oh, 448 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:32,879 Speaker 3: I make these great non alcoholic cocktails and you should 449 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:34,480 Speaker 3: come to one of my classes. And she was like, 450 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:36,560 Speaker 3: I would love to come to your class. I never 451 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:38,439 Speaker 3: get to, you know, get to go out and have 452 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 3: these great cocktails. I'm always sipping on soda, water or whatever. 453 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 3: And so I invite her to one of my cocktail classes. 454 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:48,680 Speaker 3: I teach them. I think I'm doing a great job. 455 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:51,280 Speaker 3: At the end, I asked her, how'd you like drinks? 456 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 3: And she said they were, and she's very outspoken, they 457 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:57,199 Speaker 3: were terrible. I was like, whoa, okay, what happened. I 458 00:24:57,240 --> 00:24:59,640 Speaker 3: know that they're good drinks, so why didn't you like them? 459 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:03,600 Speaker 3: And she's because they taste like alcohol and I don't 460 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:07,000 Speaker 3: like alcohol and that's the reason. Yeah, And so I 461 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:10,359 Speaker 3: was like, oh, you know, another revelation, another light bulb. Okay, 462 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:13,440 Speaker 3: got it. There are some people that don't want drinks 463 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:16,560 Speaker 3: to taste like this, and that's okay, yeah, of course, 464 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:19,800 Speaker 3: but generally, what I do and with this book, is 465 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:24,160 Speaker 3: I create drinks that taste a lot like their alcoholic counterparts. 466 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:28,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's I love, love what you said. I want 467 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:31,879 Speaker 1: to I want to play it back. You said everyone 468 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,480 Speaker 1: doesn't have to show up, but there should be a 469 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:36,120 Speaker 1: seat for everyone who does. 470 00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:39,200 Speaker 2: And so I hear you kind of talk about this spectrum. 471 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 1: I might be like your son's friend's mother in that 472 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 1: I don't like the taste of alcohol. So even when 473 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:49,760 Speaker 1: I was drinking of super competitive, so then I would 474 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:53,080 Speaker 1: definitely like people could goad me into more shots than 475 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:56,480 Speaker 1: I needed to be taking. And I'm genetically loaded for addictions, 476 00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 1: so when I choose to drink, I will literally go 477 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:02,120 Speaker 1: to the bar tender and be like, make me something 478 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 1: sweet that I can't taste the alcohol in it. Right, 479 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:09,760 Speaker 1: And so it may be in this idea of there's 480 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:14,200 Speaker 1: a seat for everyone if you show up, maybe there 481 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:17,240 Speaker 1: is that spectrum, like you said, for people who actually 482 00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:19,520 Speaker 1: don't like the taste of alcohol, for there to be 483 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:22,240 Speaker 1: drinks that we like for people who love the taste 484 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:25,879 Speaker 1: of alcohol but don't want the alcohol no free low 485 00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:29,840 Speaker 1: alcohol actual cocktails. Right, Because I learned a lot on 486 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:34,680 Speaker 1: watching Drink Masters about balancing flavors and that's right, right. 487 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:36,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think there should be all of these options. 488 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,920 Speaker 3: And you know, and people again might not like the cocktails. 489 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:44,320 Speaker 3: For you know, there's this Master of Wine. This is 490 00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:47,560 Speaker 3: a designation that takes a it's like getting a PhD 491 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:51,240 Speaker 3: in wine, right, And there's this guy's names Tim Honey 492 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:55,000 Speaker 3: h A N N I. He did some research and 493 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:57,320 Speaker 3: I can't remember with what university, but it was through 494 00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:01,879 Speaker 3: university on different types of tasters, and he established that 495 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:04,320 Speaker 3: there really are these different types of tastes. There are 496 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:08,399 Speaker 3: those who are on the more dventurous set, where something 497 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:11,080 Speaker 3: like whiskey tastes sweet. 498 00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:12,439 Speaker 2: To them, interesting, right. 499 00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:15,680 Speaker 3: And then there's people on the other side that are 500 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:16,560 Speaker 3: very sensitive. 501 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:17,240 Speaker 2: I think that's me. 502 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:24,760 Speaker 3: Alcohol or even hot sauce or coffee sometimes taste like 503 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 3: burning and is terrible. 504 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:30,240 Speaker 2: This is me, including hot sauce and coffee. 505 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:34,639 Speaker 3: And so you know, he made this big deal of 506 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:37,960 Speaker 3: it because you know, wine people going to be snobbish 507 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:41,720 Speaker 3: and so they always, not always many of them look 508 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:44,240 Speaker 3: down on people who drank sweet wines. And he said, 509 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:48,080 Speaker 3: you all owe these people in apology. And by these people, 510 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:51,199 Speaker 3: I mean people who have enjoy sweet drinks. You know, 511 00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:58,000 Speaker 3: because they had. When they taste your theoretically excellent bordeaux, 512 00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:00,840 Speaker 3: you know, it tastes awful to them, So why would 513 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:02,680 Speaker 3: they drink it just so that they could go along 514 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:05,560 Speaker 3: with you and what you think is good. That's not fair, 515 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:09,840 Speaker 3: that's not right. So I think that ultimately that's a 516 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 3: wonderful realization. We should not judge anybody for their tastes. 517 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:18,119 Speaker 3: But there are different tastes, and so you know, providing 518 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:22,080 Speaker 3: that along a spectrum too is important. And that's a lot. 519 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:25,520 Speaker 3: It's funny because we have this new explosion of non 520 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:31,680 Speaker 3: alcoholic beers, wines, RTDs are the calm ready to drink cocktails, spirits, 521 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:36,520 Speaker 3: distilled non alcoholics spirits, Yeah, that are in some cases. 522 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:39,240 Speaker 3: Just be clear that they're about zero point five percent alcohol, 523 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:41,800 Speaker 3: which is the same amount of alcohol that's in some 524 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:45,240 Speaker 3: cases a hamburger bun or a ripe banana. So it's 525 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:48,680 Speaker 3: not a lot. But for those who are absolutely staying 526 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:51,360 Speaker 3: away from alcohol, stay away from those, and stay away 527 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:53,400 Speaker 3: from apple juice because that's another one that has a 528 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,360 Speaker 3: lot of endliftering a lot but a small alcohol in it. 529 00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:59,880 Speaker 3: But anyway, there's these wonderful products, and you know, They 530 00:28:59,880 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 3: can be a really great way to incorporate like that celebration, 531 00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:08,680 Speaker 3: that social aspect without drinking alcohol, or at least a 532 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:12,960 Speaker 3: drinking a lot of alcohol. I think what's important about that? 533 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:17,800 Speaker 3: You know, people have those opportunities. But guess what, the 534 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:21,440 Speaker 3: majority of people who drink those products. I think it's 535 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:25,400 Speaker 3: eighty two percent are actually drinking alcohol too. Ah, so 536 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 3: some people are using it substitute. They're called them substitutors, 537 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:32,160 Speaker 3: and I think that that's a good thing too. You know, 538 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:35,920 Speaker 3: some people have problems with alcohol. Some people are just 539 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:38,480 Speaker 3: kind of switching back and forth on the occasion based 540 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:39,400 Speaker 3: on what they need. 541 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:41,040 Speaker 2: I love this conversation. 542 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:47,400 Speaker 1: One thank you to the super amazingly smart mister doctor Haney. 543 00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:50,280 Speaker 1: I feel seen because I get clowned for my Sweet 544 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:53,120 Speaker 1: Taste books all the time, and it really comes back 545 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:55,160 Speaker 1: to exactly what you said, which I think is like 546 00:29:55,520 --> 00:30:01,040 Speaker 1: the beautiful core of mindful mixology, which is a seat 547 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:04,880 Speaker 1: for whoever shows up. Right Like that is that that 548 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:09,960 Speaker 1: speaks to my love and joy of inclusivity. So these 549 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:12,880 Speaker 1: conversations always go so fast, So we are at the end, 550 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:16,960 Speaker 1: it is time for the question. First of all, you've 551 00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:19,520 Speaker 1: I say this every episode, and it's true every time, 552 00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:22,760 Speaker 1: and it's true for you. You have already given us 553 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:26,040 Speaker 1: so many things to unlearned, so many stigma to undo, 554 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:29,240 Speaker 1: so many conversations to uncover and have. 555 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,760 Speaker 2: But if you were going to choose one to leave 556 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:35,440 Speaker 2: us with as your parting words, what would you leave 557 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:35,760 Speaker 2: us with? 558 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:41,000 Speaker 3: Well, it's this. At a bar or at an event, 559 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:44,400 Speaker 3: when somebody doesn't drink very often, the next thing that 560 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:47,440 Speaker 3: happens is somebody asks them, oh, well, why don't you 561 00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:52,200 Speaker 3: drink right, which is not considered impolite or rude, but 562 00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 3: actually it's pretty rude when you think about it. Somebody 563 00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:58,480 Speaker 3: is asking you to tell your life, sorry to in 564 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:01,240 Speaker 3: some cases a stranger or some case a casual friend, 565 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:05,320 Speaker 3: and you shouldn't have to tell your life story to 566 00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:08,880 Speaker 3: order a drink, not alcoholic drink. So I think that 567 00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:11,480 Speaker 3: if I was to put anything out there, it would 568 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:15,960 Speaker 3: be that for people who they think that's okay or 569 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:19,000 Speaker 3: normal to change that, you know, Like, if you really 570 00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:20,880 Speaker 3: want to know somebody's story, get to know it like 571 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 3: anybody else you know, get to know that person, befriend them, 572 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:27,479 Speaker 3: share your story, and it goes both ways. But if 573 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:31,200 Speaker 3: you're expecting somebody at a bar to just turn around 574 00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:34,200 Speaker 3: and tell you, well, when I was five years old, 575 00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 3: you know, my father left and he's an alcoholic and 576 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:41,000 Speaker 3: blah blah, you know, and go through their entire life story. 577 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:43,480 Speaker 3: That's just that's too much, you. 578 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:49,960 Speaker 2: Know, don't be rude. These are the parting words of wisdom. 579 00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:51,680 Speaker 2: I think it's spot on. 580 00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:54,880 Speaker 1: So like if somebody says I don't drink, you'd be like, 581 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:56,560 Speaker 1: all right, cool, So what do you want. 582 00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:57,800 Speaker 3: Let's normalize it. 583 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:03,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's I love it. Listen. Thank you so much. 584 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:04,720 Speaker 2: This was amazing. 585 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:07,320 Speaker 3: Thank you. I really appreciate you inviting me on the show, 586 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:10,880 Speaker 3: and I look forward to learning more about your book 587 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:13,280 Speaker 3: and all of the guests that you're going to have 588 00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:16,400 Speaker 3: in the future. So I have a free newsletter called 589 00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:19,120 Speaker 3: Positive Damage and it's through substack, and so you can 590 00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 3: go to substack and search for Positive Damage, or you 591 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:25,160 Speaker 3: can go to my website Positive Damage inci NC dot 592 00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:28,480 Speaker 3: com and find that. And right now I'm doing like 593 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:32,120 Speaker 3: a whole Sober October guide and to kind of talk 594 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:34,760 Speaker 3: people through sober October if they decide they want to 595 00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:39,000 Speaker 3: reduce or eliminate alcohol during the month. And you also 596 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:42,040 Speaker 3: can find a link to my book Mindful Mixology, A 597 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:46,040 Speaker 3: comprehensive guide to know no alcohol cocktails and more information 598 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:49,640 Speaker 3: about me and what I do, so check it out. 599 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:53,760 Speaker 1: Thank you all right, let's stay connected. Thank you so 600 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:57,960 Speaker 1: much for tuning in. My book on addiction, Six mind 601 00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:01,480 Speaker 1: Changing Conversations that Could Save a Liffe is now available 602 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 1: for pre order at bookshop dot org, Union Square and Company, 603 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:10,600 Speaker 1: Barnes and Noble, Amazon, and wherever books are sold. If 604 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:13,480 Speaker 1: you like to this episode, please share it with someone 605 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:16,880 Speaker 1: you think may need to hear it. Also, please subscribe 606 00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:20,400 Speaker 1: to this podcast and leave a five star review that 607 00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:22,960 Speaker 1: helps us reach any and everyone who may be looking 608 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:24,880 Speaker 1: for support in the face of addiction.