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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language, along with references

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Speaker 1: to sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: So the police officer they're supposed to decide whether there

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Speaker 2: even is any evidence, which is obviously not an evidence

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Speaker 2: based evidence system if you're already deciding who's lying.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the

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Speaker 1: podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career,

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Speaker 1: research for my many audio and book projects has taken

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Speaker 1: me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down

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Speaker 1: with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers,

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Speaker 1: and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true cases.

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Speaker 1: This is about the choices writers make, both good and bad,

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Speaker 1: and it's a deep dive into the unpublished details behind

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Speaker 1: their stories. This week on Wicked Words, years ago, author

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Speaker 1: Pagan Kennedy wondered about the history of the rape kit,

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Speaker 1: a crucial tool for investigators today, who designed it. She

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Speaker 1: found out that it was Martha Goddard, a pioneer who

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Speaker 1: wanted to help police catch sexual predators using forensics. But

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Speaker 1: sometime after she made history. Goddard vanished. Listen to Kennedy's

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Speaker 1: story at the center of her book, The Secret History

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Speaker 1: of the Rape Kit. I read a New York Times

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Speaker 1: review of your book. I can't really remember the last

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Speaker 1: review I read from the Times that had zero criticism

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Speaker 1: about the I mean zero. What do you think resonates

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Speaker 1: with readers? I know you're doing a lot of interviews.

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Speaker 1: What do you think it is about this project that

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Speaker 1: has really kind of caught the attention of readers today.

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Speaker 2: You know, I really thought a lot about how to

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Speaker 2: tell this story. You know, I really wanted to deliver

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Speaker 2: new information to people, and really important information. But I

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Speaker 2: think it's very important to wrap it in a story

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Speaker 2: in the right way, and so I thought a lot

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Speaker 2: about that. And the Marti Goddard story is several mysteries

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Speaker 2: at once, kind of stacked up. And one mystery is

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Speaker 2: what happened to her because she was key to creating

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Speaker 2: the national system of sexual assault evidence that we have now.

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Speaker 2: I mean, she really was the person behind the scenes

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Speaker 2: who made it happen at a lot of levels. Then

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Speaker 2: after she did that, she just disappeared to the point

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Speaker 2: where it was really when I came looking for her.

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Speaker 2: It was really really took me forever to find her.

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Speaker 2: So there's the mystery of what happened to her, There's

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Speaker 2: the mystery of how did she bring about this massive change,

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Speaker 2: you know, as an activist in Chicago with seemingly very

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Speaker 2: little political power. And then you know, really it's about

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Speaker 2: the mystery of evidence. What is evidence? Who gets to

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Speaker 2: say what evidence is? Who controls everything about evidence? Is

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Speaker 2: about the power structure in criminal justice and in our

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Speaker 2: world now there's all this argument about what is even

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Speaker 2: true Now. It was a struggle to rethink evidence from

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Speaker 2: the point of view of survivors, you know, in the

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Speaker 2: nineteen seventies that Marty Goddard was a part of. And

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Speaker 2: so I really it was also my own story in

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Speaker 2: terms of, you know, I was molested as a kid.

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Speaker 2: I mean also at the heart of this is if

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Speaker 2: something like that has happened to you or somebody, you know,

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Speaker 2: how do you deal with that longing for justice that

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Speaker 2: you're never going to get And what if you don't

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Speaker 2: have the evidence? What if you know something happened to

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Speaker 2: you and you don't have the evidence of it. So

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Speaker 2: I tried to weave in all of that and more

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Speaker 2: into the book and keep it all keep it moving

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Speaker 2: very quickly by kind of always having one pot or

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Speaker 2: the other boiling at all times in the story.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's a good nonfiction narrative right there. Where do

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Speaker 1: we start with this story with you? Is it you

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Speaker 1: and your journey trying to figure out who is the

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Speaker 1: name behind the rape kit and how it is not accurate?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean, for me, the story started in twenty eighteen.

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Speaker 2: The rape kit was very much of the news because

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Speaker 2: people might remember there was a huge scandal then about

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Speaker 2: untested backlogged kits and these were literally almost half a

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Speaker 2: million kits that were sitting in police warehouses or it

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Speaker 2: had been thrown away. And when I say police warehouses,

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Speaker 2: I mean moldy basements with sometimes pigeons flapping around, you know,

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Speaker 2: and mice eating them, you know, or literally lying there

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Speaker 2: in black trash bags as if they're about to be

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Speaker 2: thrown away or just thrown away. And so I think

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Speaker 2: when you know survivors who had gone through a very

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Speaker 2: very difficult and invasive forensic exams to create this evidence

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Speaker 2: found out about this, there was a huge amount of anger.

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Speaker 2: You know, these headlines were out there and I suddenly

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Speaker 2: had the thought, you know, it didn't actually surprise me

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Speaker 2: so much that the police would destroy or hide this evidence.

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Speaker 2: But what did surprise me was what I really thought

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Speaker 2: about it was that there was this national system for

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Speaker 2: collecting evidence of sexual assault, and that you know, of

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Speaker 2: course it doesn't always work as we would want it

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Speaker 2: to work, but it potentially had such power to potentially

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Speaker 2: take down, you know, somebody very powerful, a Catholic priest,

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Speaker 2: head of a school, serial predator who had been hadn't

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Speaker 2: been found for years. It also had the potential to

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Speaker 2: free innocent black men who are all too often put

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Speaker 2: in prison for rape and are kind of framed for it.

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Speaker 2: And so that also, that power to exonerate people is

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Speaker 2: really important part of the kit. So this thing kind

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Speaker 2: of I was kind of like, how did this ever

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Speaker 2: get created in a world that seems to be you know,

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Speaker 2: in the rest of our designed environment, it seems like

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Speaker 2: there's not a lot of care taken to prevent sexual

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Speaker 2: abuse or you know, if you go on to social

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Speaker 2: media or something, it's not like it's designed to keep

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Speaker 2: people from being harassed or stocked or you know, any

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Speaker 2: of that. So it just seemed kind of amazing to me.

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Speaker 2: So I really suddenly wanted to know all the origins,

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Speaker 2: how did this ever come into being? Because I also thought, well,

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Speaker 2: this tells you more than just the story of the kid.

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Speaker 2: It tells you how something like this that challenges power

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Speaker 2: could come into existence. So my first stop was Wikipedia

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Speaker 2: of twenty eighteen, and on that Wikipedia there was not

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Speaker 2: very much information, but it did say that a police

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Speaker 2: officer named Louis Futtulo in Chicago had been the sole

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Speaker 2: inventor of the kit in the nineteen seventies, and it

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Speaker 2: was called the Vitulo Kit after him because he was

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Speaker 2: the inventor, so he was no longer alive and there

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Speaker 2: was not really much information out there about him. So

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Speaker 2: I kept looking for other people who might be involved,

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Speaker 2: and I kept seeing this name, Martha Goddard or Marty Goddard.

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Speaker 2: Being a longtime reporter, my first question is, well, okay,

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Speaker 2: is she dead or alive? Because that tells me what

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Speaker 2: to do next. I couldn't find any obituaries, any memorials,

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Speaker 2: any indication that she was dead, you know, and almost

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Speaker 2: always when I go looking for somebody, if they're dead,

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Speaker 2: there's something it's very clear. So I had to assume

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Speaker 2: she was alive. At that time, and so I was

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Speaker 2: just hunting and hunting for her. So without knowing it,

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Speaker 2: I kind of fell down the rabbit hole of looking

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Speaker 2: for this mysterious Marty Goddard. And while I couldn't find her,

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Speaker 2: I kept finding all kinds of things that made her

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Speaker 2: story just appear before me in technicolor. Because I found

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Speaker 2: these pretty obscure oral histories. She had done these long interviews,

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Speaker 2: audio interviews where she told her story, and I began

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Speaker 2: to find people she had worked with and talk to

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Speaker 2: them who had also been involved in her projects, or

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Speaker 2: had been working on the rap task for us in

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Speaker 2: Chicago or whatever. The story just began to emerge before me.

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Speaker 2: And that story was you know this, she begans when

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Speaker 2: she tells her story in these oral histories. She begins

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Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy two, when she was she's a divorce

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Speaker 2: a and just divorced, just moved to Chicago. She's you know,

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Speaker 2: I have pictures of her. She's this blonde woman with

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Speaker 2: big goggly glasses and always looking incredibly sharp. She was

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Speaker 2: very determined to be taken seriously, so she was always

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Speaker 2: kind of in those suits that women had to wear

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Speaker 2: in the nineteen seventies with the silk shirts and the

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Speaker 2: sometimes like the little bow ties and the you know,

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Speaker 2: the jackets and the briefcase and all of that. So

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Speaker 2: she starts with the day or the days when she

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Speaker 2: began volunteering. She was working at a nonprofit, but she

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Speaker 2: was volunteering at a what they can called a runaway

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Speaker 2: hotline in Chicago, and that was for kids living on

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Speaker 2: the street to call in and get help. And you know,

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Speaker 2: this is the hippie the height of the hippie movement,

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Speaker 2: so they were calling them runaways, and the idea was

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Speaker 2: these kids that sort of run away to have fun

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Speaker 2: and be hippies and headed to San Francisco or whatever

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Speaker 2: that was. That was sort of the idea. But she

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Speaker 2: walked in and the hotline was housed in this old,

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Speaker 2: falling apart townhouse in downtown Chicago, and it was staffed

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Speaker 2: all by students and hippies, sort of hippie long hair people.

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Speaker 2: So she really didn't fit in. She was this very

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Speaker 2: professional looking person, but she sat down and began taking calls,

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Speaker 2: and what she discovered was these kids were running away

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Speaker 2: from home because many of them were fleeing from abusive

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Speaker 2: family members. In fact, she began to see what was

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Speaker 2: sort of before everybody's eyes in the early seventies, but

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Speaker 2: nobody was talking about or able to see, which was

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Speaker 2: that there was just a tremendous amount of child sexual abuse,

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Speaker 2: which was thought to be incredibly rare at that time.

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Speaker 2: There was really like not even a full understanding of

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Speaker 2: child abuse at that time. She was thinking, if this

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Speaker 2: is so prevalent, there must be so many predators out there,

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Speaker 2: and she began getting involved in trying to help these,

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Speaker 2: especially the girls who ended up on the streets, who

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Speaker 2: would often be blamed. They would be called like prostitutes,

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Speaker 2: and nobody would seem to think, well, how did that happen?

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Speaker 2: How does a thirteen year old girl end up on

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Speaker 2: the street, and who's to blame for that? You know,

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Speaker 2: the girl herself would be blamed and the police would

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Speaker 2: holler away to juvenile hall or something. So she got

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Speaker 2: very involved in that, and in nineteen seventy four things

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Speaker 2: really started to shift into high gear because there was

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Speaker 2: the anti race movement really was getting started in America,

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Speaker 2: and in Chicago, there was a huge amount of outrage

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Speaker 2: starting to happen on the part of women who had

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Speaker 2: been assaulted and the police hadn't done anything, and so

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Speaker 2: in fact, the attitude of that time, not just in

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Speaker 2: Chicago but everywhere was that you really couldn't prove that

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Speaker 2: a sexual assault had happened. It was just always going

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Speaker 2: to be a he said, she said, There's sort of

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Speaker 2: no way you could ever get evidence of it, you know,

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Speaker 2: going back into the police training manuals of the time,

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Speaker 2: they would say, like women almost always are frequently lie.

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Speaker 2: You can't trust them. So the police officer is supposed

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Speaker 2: to be the judge the jury. They're supposed to decide

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Speaker 2: whether there even is any evidence, which is obviously not

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Speaker 2: an evidence based evidence system if you're already deciding who's lying.

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Speaker 1: I remember reading that you were saying in these manuals

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Speaker 1: that officers were told, you know, much of this is

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Speaker 1: because their boyfriend or their husband's a cheater and they're

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Speaker 1: trying to get revenge. So, yes, that seemed that was

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Speaker 1: startling to me when I read that. One thing I

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Speaker 1: wanted to bring up because I know we're framing the

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Speaker 1: seventies and where we are right now. I just did

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Speaker 1: a story on my other show with Poul Holes, which

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Speaker 1: is Buried Bones, about the Miranda rights, the origin of that, which,

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Speaker 1: of course was a series of sexual assaults. What I

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Speaker 1: did not know, and I told one of my classes

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Speaker 1: where I teach a true crime at the University of Texas,

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Speaker 1: I said, I did not know that even now, what

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Speaker 1: happened with the women who accused Miranda of you know,

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Speaker 1: assaulting them was they were all given polygraph tests and

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Speaker 1: you can still do that. And I just thought, how

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Speaker 1: is that even possible when this is a tool quote

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Speaker 1: unquote that can't even be admitted in court, let alone,

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Speaker 1: you know, it must be used for intimidation or something.

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Speaker 1: I was stunned by that, and I'm sure that there

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Speaker 1: are a lot of other things that would surprise me

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Speaker 1: about how police officers are able to get quote unquote

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Speaker 1: the truth from people who come to the station and

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Speaker 1: claim something.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's fascinating. I actually didn't know that Miranda was

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Speaker 2: a sexual assault case, and that actually makes a whole

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Speaker 2: lot of sense. Yeah, because you're being told that anything

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Speaker 2: you can say will be used against you, which of

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Speaker 2: course it's doubly true. It's sexual assault cases because the

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Speaker 2: survivor is almost always treated, it is often treated like

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Speaker 2: a suspect, and that's the fight, that's the struggle. We're

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Speaker 2: still having today. You know, just seems so hard to

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Speaker 2: shift that culture away from treating the accuser as a

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Speaker 2: suspect or a liar.

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Speaker 1: So in the seventies we have a don't believe her movement,

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Speaker 1: it sounds like, and this is of course disgusting to Marty.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure she's learning more and more about this stuff.

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Speaker 1: And you were saying, was it seventy sixty you said,

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Speaker 1: was when this anti rape movement was really gaining steam here?

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Speaker 2: It was around seventy four. This is when the first

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Speaker 2: women are coming out of law school. I mean, Barrital

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Speaker 2: rape is still legal at this time. There's very little

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Speaker 2: understanding of child abuse, so it's just the norm that

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Speaker 2: sexual assault happens. If it happens to you, it's probably

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Speaker 2: your fault. So yeah, so she because of Chicago had

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Speaker 2: this big scandal on its hands and the police department

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Speaker 2: there were scandal upon scandal in Chicago because the police

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Speaker 2: department there were actually a secret police group inside the

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Speaker 2: Chicago Police called the Red Squad. They also had this

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Speaker 2: in other cities, but it was very especially kind of

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Speaker 2: woven into the Chicago Police department, which was the secret police,

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Speaker 2: and they were sort of the Dirty Tricks Gang. They

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Speaker 2: would blackmail people they didn't like. They would definitely target

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Speaker 2: African America anybody well, they would target anybody who brought

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Speaker 2: up police abuse. They targeted African American men. They were

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Speaker 2: sort of entangled with Nazi movements. They were, you know,

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Speaker 2: so there was in this police inside the police, and

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Speaker 2: they had these secret files. And Marty Goddard actually was

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Speaker 2: pretty she was being followed during some of the time.

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Speaker 2: When she began working on the Rape Task Force in Chicago,

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Speaker 2: she did see a file against her. But then the

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Speaker 2: files from the Red Squad just like quote unquote accidentally

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Speaker 2: all went up in flame. So I went and tried

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Speaker 2: to find the secret file, because there is still in

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Speaker 2: Chicago an archive of what's left of the Red Squad

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Speaker 2: files from the seventies, well sixties, seventies, but couldn't find

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Speaker 2: anything there. So if she did have a secret police

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Speaker 2: file on her, it was destroyed. But you know, you

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Speaker 2: can get the whole the whole vibe. It was very much,

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Speaker 2: very difficult. The police were the Chicago police was really

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Speaker 2: were really known to be the worst in the country

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Speaker 2: in terms of being very much a political group that

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Speaker 2: would just hurt the enemies of the then the democratic machine. Anyway,

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Speaker 2: she Marty Goddard, because of her activism, was made a

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Speaker 2: head of the Citizens Committee on the Rape Task Force,

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Speaker 2: and that gave her the power to go in and

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Speaker 2: talk to kind of whoever she wanted to figure out

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Speaker 2: what was going on, why there was so little effort

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Speaker 2: to investigate sexual assault cases. And so she talked to

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Speaker 2: hospital administrators, nurses, er docs, you know, people in the

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Speaker 2: crime labs, police officers. She just talked to everybody. And

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Speaker 2: this was something really interesting about her, which she's just

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Speaker 2: a very curious person who wanted to make things work

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Speaker 2: and get everybody on board. And so she could kind

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Speaker 2: of go into these different spaces and make allies. She

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Speaker 2: was very good at kind of showing up in her

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Speaker 2: nice suit and shaking people's hands and making allies and

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Speaker 2: then just sort of pulling things together. And so along

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Speaker 2: the way she became convinced or decided, you know, well

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Speaker 2: what she analyzed when she diagnosed what was going wrong.

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Speaker 2: Of course, there's a big kind of cultural problem with

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Speaker 2: the police really treating survivors quite badly. You know, there was,

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Speaker 2: of course the culture, but then at the practical level,

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Speaker 2: just people in the nursing staff in the hospital. They

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Speaker 2: were just focused on when somebody came in after a

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Speaker 2: violin attack. They just wanted to help them and treat

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Speaker 2: their wounds, and so that they would try to collect evidence,

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Speaker 2: but nobody had taught them how, so they just kind

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Speaker 2: of do what they needed to do, throw everything in

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Speaker 2: a bag and send it over to the crime lab.

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Speaker 2: And then the crime lab opens this bag and here's

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Speaker 2: this clothing that has been torn up by the doctors

301
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Speaker 2: as they tried to get to the patient and they

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Speaker 2: you know, in slides that hadn't been correctly stored and

303
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Speaker 2: just a jumble of stuff, so they would throw it out.

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Speaker 2: So that was what was happening to a lot of

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Speaker 2: the evidence. So it became clear that you needed to

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Speaker 2: train everybody. You needed to get them to all talk

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Speaker 2: to each other, and you needed them to all be

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Speaker 2: on board and create one unified system. She I think

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Speaker 2: it was she who probably did have you know, talked

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Speaker 2: to a lot of people and tried to establish exactly

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Speaker 2: what happened. It's a little hard, but it seems like

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Speaker 2: she had the idea of using the kit a kit

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Speaker 2: to kind of be the object that moved from place

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Speaker 2: to place, and kept everybody on the same page. I

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Speaker 2: should say that she did not invent the kit, nor

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Speaker 2: did Louis Viattulo, who was credited with it. There were

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Speaker 2: actually rape kits in existence then they weren't used widely.

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Speaker 2: They were used sort of here and there, like as

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Speaker 2: experiments sort of or and many of them were quite bad.

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Speaker 1: In what way bad like inadequate.

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Speaker 2: Well, I found one from nineteen I found I didn't

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Speaker 2: find the kit. I found the instructions from a nineteen

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Speaker 2: seventy three kit that said that if you thought that

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Speaker 2: the woman accusing rape was a quote ced prostitute, then

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Speaker 2: you didn't need to collect evidence. Wow, you should collect

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Speaker 2: evidence if she was a thirteen year old girl headed

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Speaker 2: to Sunday school. But maybe if she was a quote

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Speaker 2: bar maid, you didn't have to do it. So again,

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Speaker 2: it was like actually codifying that police bias right into

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Speaker 2: the tool. So there's nothing magical about a rape kit.

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Speaker 2: A rape kit can be very bad. So anyway, Marty

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Speaker 2: Goddard brought this, she was told by a friend in

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Speaker 2: the police department, you've got to get Louis Batulo on

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Speaker 2: board because he's in the crime lab. He was sort

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Speaker 2: of Chicago famous at that time because he'd been helped

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Speaker 2: to solve some big cases and he had just had

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Speaker 2: a lot of power inside the police department. So she

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Speaker 2: went to him proposed to this idea and or some

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Speaker 2: idea that she had, and according to her big collaborator

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Speaker 2: at that time, Cynthia Gary, he threw her out of

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Speaker 2: the office initially and yelled at her for sort of

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Speaker 2: presuming to come in. But then days later he had

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Speaker 2: created a prototype of what they had discussed, and so

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Speaker 2: she did end up working with him, you know, But

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Speaker 2: she went on to found a nonprofit, Get all the

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Speaker 2: hospitals on board, run all the trainings, raise all the money,

347
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Speaker 2: think up you know. Really, there was so much about

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Speaker 2: the kid that wasn't in the box. It was a

349
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Speaker 2: sense of design, It was an attitude of looking at

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Speaker 2: it from the survivor's point of view. Part of the

351
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Speaker 2: original kit was a very simple didn't have that many

352
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Speaker 2: tools in it, and it had a very simple set

353
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Speaker 2: of checklists so that if you were trained, and you

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Speaker 2: didn't need a ton of training, you could follow this

355
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Speaker 2: and everybody would know exactly what evidence was collected and

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Speaker 2: how to collect it. So it was very much about

357
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Speaker 2: creating a system and then housing all these samples, biological

358
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Speaker 2: samples that had been collected in exactly the same way

359
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Speaker 2: so that it was standardized.

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Speaker 1: I wonder if we can go back and do a

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Speaker 1: little bit of a timeline of collecting evidence for sexual assault.

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Speaker 1: Raye Paul and I on Barry Bones do talk about,

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Speaker 1: you know, cases from the seventies and the fifties that

364
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Speaker 1: are sixties that have been solved with DNA evidence that's

365
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Speaker 1: been collected in a lot of time. It's that semen swabs,

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Speaker 1: which for some reason always surprises me or right, they

367
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Speaker 1: are often in cases like you know, I think it's

368
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Speaker 1: a Knoxville, Tennessee where there was a suspected serial killer

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Speaker 1: of young girls, and so you know there is biological

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Speaker 1: evidence there. What's your understanding of when they first started

371
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Speaker 1: thinking about collecting anything, I mean, my goodness, in the

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Speaker 1: early nineteen hundreds. I don't even know if they would

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Speaker 1: have known what to capture what not to capture.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think the cases you're talking about are where

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Speaker 2: the survivors are dead. So the survivors, the non survivors,

376
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Speaker 2: the victims are dead, right, So that was really different

377
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Speaker 2: like collecting from a dead body. We're talking about collecting

378
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Speaker 2: from somebody who's alive, you know, again, it becomes much

379
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Speaker 2: more of you know, it's if somebody's dead, it's clear

380
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Speaker 2: that violence has occurred. Yeah, so it's a very different

381
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Speaker 2: process when the survivor is alive and accusing somebody, especially

382
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Speaker 2: somebody in power.

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Speaker 1: Do you know when that would have started with survivors.

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Speaker 2: It's a very hazy history, which I actually traced back

385
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Speaker 2: to the witch trials because there was very you know,

386
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Speaker 2: Matthew Hale, who was in English, I don't know if

387
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:12,080
Speaker 2: he was a judge. I guess he was a judge

388
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Speaker 2: in the sixteen hundreds, who was the man who formulated

389
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Speaker 2: a lot of the ideas that underlay marital rape. It

390
00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:22,160
Speaker 2: was the idea that, you know, a woman was property

391
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Speaker 2: of her husband, so she couldn't be sexually abused because

392
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Speaker 2: she was property. And he also was involved in some

393
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:33,560
Speaker 2: witch trials. But you know, the idea of a witch

394
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Speaker 2: trial was you're investigating somebody's body to see if they're

395
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Speaker 2: a liar, essentially, and that idea, you know, and then

396
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:48,000
Speaker 2: you have, like in the Victorian era here and there,

397
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Speaker 2: and even early twentieth century, you have female accusers being

398
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Speaker 2: examined to see if they're virgins, you know, it's just

399
00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:01,679
Speaker 2: a long chain of is she a liar? Is she

400
00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:06,600
Speaker 2: a slut? You know, And so by the early seventies

401
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:10,679
Speaker 2: when this is happening, I mean, they certainly would have

402
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:14,879
Speaker 2: you know, of course, any situation where the victim is dead,

403
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:18,199
Speaker 2: that becomes a whole different kind of case. You know,

404
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:22,080
Speaker 2: there were really obvious cases or if you had maybe

405
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:25,720
Speaker 2: a sympathetic police officer or something. You know, it was

406
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:30,119
Speaker 2: just they would bring people in, they would collect their story,

407
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:34,720
Speaker 2: they might collect evidence, but it wasn't like there was

408
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:38,800
Speaker 2: any real system in place, and it was again very

409
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Speaker 2: much under the control of the police officers to decide.

410
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Speaker 2: And so what I think Marty Goddard and the other

411
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:49,960
Speaker 2: activists of the seventies were doing was trying to take

412
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Speaker 2: the power, you know, out of the individual police officer

413
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Speaker 2: and say, look, we're going to collect evidence from everybody

414
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Speaker 2: who wants evidence collected. Anybody who's accusing and they want

415
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:06,159
Speaker 2: evidence collected. It was essentially creating a new norm, a

416
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:09,199
Speaker 2: norm that if you're a survivor in theory, you have

417
00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:13,840
Speaker 2: the right to have evidence collected from you if you

418
00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 2: want it. That that belongs to everybody.

419
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Speaker 1: What is the rule now, Is it that anybody who

420
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Speaker 1: comes in, male or female and says I've been the

421
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 1: victim of a sexual assault, it is their right to

422
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Speaker 1: have their evidence tested? Or is there any discretion for

423
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:35,240
Speaker 1: anybody either at the hospital or at the police department.

424
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Speaker 2: Well, in theory, that's how it works. In practice, and

425
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:42,320
Speaker 2: we can get into this later, there's all kinds of

426
00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:46,000
Speaker 2: reasons why it doesn't always work that way and often doesn't,

427
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:51,280
Speaker 2: and that just the hurdles that survivors have to go

428
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:54,440
Speaker 2: through to even get to the point where they're getting

429
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:57,880
Speaker 2: a forensic exam or very high. And so a lot

430
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:02,479
Speaker 2: of people just simply don't have access to the system

431
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:05,400
Speaker 2: at all, just because they may not have a car

432
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:08,440
Speaker 2: to get to a hospital something like that. So as

433
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:11,240
Speaker 2: I've been touring with around after this book, you know,

434
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:15,240
Speaker 2: I just hear so many stories, for instance, male victims

435
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:18,360
Speaker 2: being turned away because somebody tells them, oh, the rape

436
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:21,359
Speaker 2: kit isn't for you, which is not true. You know.

437
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:24,280
Speaker 2: One of the other big problems right now is something

438
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:27,440
Speaker 2: that happened later. You know, as the rape kit comes

439
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:32,760
Speaker 2: into becomes a national system in the eighties, there's entirely

440
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:36,960
Speaker 2: new kinds of nurses. There's forensic nurses being trained, and

441
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:41,160
Speaker 2: there's now you know, the system is built out even

442
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 2: further more and more to where we have the idea

443
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 2: of trauma informed care and you know nurses who are

444
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 2: specially trained to help survivors and all of that. But

445
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 2: right now there's just not enough forensic nurses. So often

446
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:58,880
Speaker 2: also the people who are the nurses or doctors that

447
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 2: you know, somebody might counter it's not their fault, but

448
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:05,440
Speaker 2: they haven't been trained, and they're any er where there's

449
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 2: a huge amount of time pressure and stuff. So there's

450
00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:12,240
Speaker 2: all kinds of reasons why it does not work as envisioned.

451
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:15,320
Speaker 2: But I think the idea there's something just important in

452
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:20,400
Speaker 2: the idea that everybody has the right to file evidence now,

453
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:23,880
Speaker 2: and that I never thought, even when I was working

454
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:25,959
Speaker 2: on the book, I never thought, oh, that could be

455
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:30,800
Speaker 2: taken away. You know, even if in practice we fall

456
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:34,960
Speaker 2: short of that norm, that that idea that we have

457
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:38,680
Speaker 2: that I thought we all shared that every person who's

458
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 2: believes that they've been sexually assaulted has the right to

459
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:46,640
Speaker 2: report it and be examined and see if there's DNA

460
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:50,200
Speaker 2: evidence or other evidence that is now being chipped away

461
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 2: in Idaho a law passed this summer, so anybody under

462
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 2: eighteen has to get the parental consent in order to

463
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:02,440
Speaker 2: file sexual assault evidence.

464
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:06,160
Speaker 1: That's such bullshit. Yeah, but what is that? What is

465
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 1: that coming down to? I mean, what is the politics

466
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:11,720
Speaker 1: behind that? It's the agreement that children shouldn't be making

467
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 1: their own decisions? Is that what the push for that was?

468
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 1: That parents have to be more involved? The lack of

469
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 1: parental rights? Is that what this is?

470
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a far right movement around. In fact, in Idaho,

471
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 2: any procedure, even a minor one involving a minor, the

472
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:32,840
Speaker 2: parent have to give consent. But that of course includes

473
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 2: going through a forensic exam. And so of course if

474
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 2: the parent is actually the perpetrator.

475
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 1: Or doesn't believe it.

476
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:44,480
Speaker 2: Or doesn't believe it, or somebody else in the family

477
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 2: it's the perpetrator, you know, then that's a big problem.

478
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 2: But the upshot is that, you know, in Idaho and

479
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:56,240
Speaker 2: potentially in more and more states, we could see this idea.

480
00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 2: I thought, you know that it seemed like we all

481
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 2: share that any survivor who wants to report what happened

482
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 2: to them and have evidence collected that they had that

483
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:08,920
Speaker 2: right that's not anything that I think we can take

484
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:10,000
Speaker 2: for granted anymore.

485
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,960
Speaker 1: Let's go back to the nineteen seventies. So you know,

486
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 1: Marty is having a conversation with Vittulo and next thing

487
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 1: we know, he's got this prototype for the kit. Do

488
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:25,360
Speaker 1: they get along on this process or is she done

489
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 1: with this process once she gives him the idea? And

490
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:28,920
Speaker 1: where do we go from there?

491
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:31,320
Speaker 2: So yeah, when you read, you know, it's hard to

492
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,680
Speaker 2: know exactly. I have a lot about that in my

493
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:36,960
Speaker 2: book trying to parse that out, But it doesn't seem

494
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:41,080
Speaker 2: like once she had the prototype they were working together

495
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:43,040
Speaker 2: that much. And in fact, if you go back and

496
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:46,640
Speaker 2: as I did, and look through a bazillion newspaper articles

497
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 2: and can kind of reconstruct the story, she then takes

498
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 2: the lead, and she's quoted everywhere in the newspapers and

499
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:58,720
Speaker 2: sort of doing everything. So she now has the prototype,

500
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:01,840
Speaker 2: she has the go ahead to create a system in

501
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:06,320
Speaker 2: Chicago using this kit. She doesn't have the money. She

502
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 2: started a nonprofit like as the Mechanism to do this,

503
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 2: but so she needs to raise all this money. She

504
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 2: can't get any funding because this is not the kind

505
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 2: of thing that well healed philanthropic organizations are funding at

506
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 2: that time. So this is kind of one of the

507
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:29,440
Speaker 2: many bizarre twists in the story was that her friend

508
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 2: at the Playboy Foundation, Margaret who is now name Margaret Pcorney,

509
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 2: reached out to her and said, look, I think you

510
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:42,440
Speaker 2: can get funding here. Strangely enough, the Playboy Foundation. Playboy,

511
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:45,600
Speaker 2: of course, was the big industry in Chicago. The Playboy

512
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 2: magazine was making a lot of money, and Hugh Hefner

513
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:53,280
Speaker 2: was this real Chicago personality, and there was this huge

514
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:56,640
Speaker 2: building in the center of town that said Playboy. They

515
00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 2: were funding a lot of civil rights and feminists, activism

516
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 2: and work. I didn't know that. How Why why? I

517
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 2: think it made sense in a weird way for you Havener,

518
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 2: because he wanted women to be liberated and sexually free,

519
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:15,680
Speaker 2: and if women are being sexually assaulted all over the place,

520
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:19,360
Speaker 2: that's not going to happen. He also funded Ruth Bader

521
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 2: Ginsberg's projects at the ACLU as she got her start,

522
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:27,200
Speaker 2: so it kind of weirdly made sense for him. Anyway,

523
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 2: they did get this grant to do this pilot program,

524
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:36,840
Speaker 2: and they got a lot of help from the Playboy staff.

525
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:40,800
Speaker 2: The designers helped did sort of a logo for the kit.

526
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 2: There's a kind of groovy seventies women on it. They

527
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:48,960
Speaker 2: gathered volunteers there and had everybody put together these kits

528
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:52,080
Speaker 2: and made thousands of kits and got them out into

529
00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:56,400
Speaker 2: the hospitals and started up this very very ambitious program

530
00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 2: across Chicago and then across the entire state. And part

531
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 2: of the training that the nurses had to have and

532
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 2: the doctors was that they were going to take this

533
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:10,760
Speaker 2: kit into the courtroom. They probably take the actual kit,

534
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:13,040
Speaker 2: but they were going to talk about what they had

535
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 2: done and present it to the jury. And so the

536
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:22,920
Speaker 2: kit itself had to look really official and scientific, and

537
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 2: the whole process had to be kind of put in

538
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:31,280
Speaker 2: this language of you know, scientific evidence, because again, you know,

539
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:34,680
Speaker 2: the accuser was not going to be believed by the jury,

540
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 2: especially at that time, and so what you had is

541
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 2: people who are kind of in a white lab coats

542
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 2: talking on their behalf and saying, well, we did this test,

543
00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 2: and we did this test, and we did this test,

544
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:50,880
Speaker 2: and that really did start to help to win cases

545
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 2: and persuade juries. You know, this was at a time

546
00:33:55,040 --> 00:34:00,720
Speaker 2: before DNA identification existed. If they had, say blood in

547
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 2: a sample of blood. You know, they couldn't really narrow

548
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:07,720
Speaker 2: down who was the suspect that much. You could do

549
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:11,439
Speaker 2: blood typing, you could do HLA take typing, you could

550
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:15,239
Speaker 2: do these other kind of tests. You're not really you're

551
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:19,359
Speaker 2: maybe eliminating, you know, a third of people out there

552
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:21,239
Speaker 2: are two thirds or something like that, but you're not

553
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:25,480
Speaker 2: really saying with any certainty who the suspect is. So

554
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:29,880
Speaker 2: Marty continued to you know, really advocate for this. It

555
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:33,239
Speaker 2: became you know, you see, if you're following it through

556
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:37,759
Speaker 2: the newspapers, you suddenly see exploding headlines all over the country. Wow,

557
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:41,080
Speaker 2: there's this new rape kit system. It's it seems to

558
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:44,799
Speaker 2: really be helping to solve cases. It seems to work

559
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:48,279
Speaker 2: really well. You see other cities adopting it. And she

560
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:51,040
Speaker 2: was given money by the Justice Department to go around

561
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:55,400
Speaker 2: the country and help other cities and states set up

562
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:58,800
Speaker 2: their programs. So that's what she did in the early eighties.

563
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:03,160
Speaker 2: And she worked really hard and burned out very badly,

564
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:06,160
Speaker 2: which I think is part of the why she disappeared.

565
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 2: But because of the work she and all these other

566
00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:13,239
Speaker 2: people did, wonderful people did back then, there was now

567
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:17,319
Speaker 2: these kits all over the country storing biological evidence. So

568
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:22,160
Speaker 2: when DNA identification did come along in the late eighties nineties,

569
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:26,120
Speaker 2: you now, these kits are just so much more valuable

570
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 2: and so much more convincing to a jury where you

571
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:33,280
Speaker 2: can say, Okay, look, you know, we had three women

572
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:38,640
Speaker 2: accusing this guy, and we have one kit that shows

573
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:43,960
Speaker 2: that he's definitely the person whose blood is in this kit.

574
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:50,320
Speaker 2: So that kind of evidence really is much more convincing

575
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 2: to juries.

576
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:56,320
Speaker 1: I remember, you know, when I'm in Texas, when Dallas

577
00:35:56,760 --> 00:35:59,839
Speaker 1: got a new DA, the first black DA, Craig walk

578
00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:02,200
Speaker 1: in and one of the first things he did was

579
00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 1: go and test all of the outstanding sexual assault kits

580
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:09,560
Speaker 1: and other biological evidence, and it came back something like

581
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 1: I feel like it was like twenty five percent of

582
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 1: the people who had been you know, arrested and convicted

583
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:19,279
Speaker 1: in those cases were exonerated just based on what he

584
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:22,600
Speaker 1: did with these kids. Was there a way to trace

585
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:25,879
Speaker 1: or tell the story of one of these kits where

586
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:30,920
Speaker 1: it leads to an exoneration or a conviction. I'm wondering

587
00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:33,359
Speaker 1: if there's like a little map of where all these

588
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:37,080
Speaker 1: kits that came from Goddard's mind, you know, where they

589
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:37,840
Speaker 1: came from.

590
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:41,840
Speaker 2: Not really to be honest, because by the time the

591
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:48,080
Speaker 2: kits are really everywhere, they're already becoming slightly different everywhere.

592
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:50,960
Speaker 2: That was the thing, and I think she had really

593
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:54,440
Speaker 2: wanted a standardized system. We still don't have one. People

594
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:58,000
Speaker 2: became aware of the backlog of kits in the twenty tens,

595
00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:00,920
Speaker 2: but they the backlog started as soon as you had

596
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:04,840
Speaker 2: DNA testing. So you know, you can imagine, like DNA

597
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:09,279
Speaker 2: testing becomes available, it's super expensive. A city like New York, say,

598
00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:12,200
Speaker 2: already has ten thousand kits or something, and now they

599
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:17,000
Speaker 2: all need to be tested. And honestly, police departments did

600
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:20,840
Speaker 2: have tend to have pretty much money, but for whatever reason,

601
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:24,719
Speaker 2: it was not put into testing the kits. So immediately

602
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:28,239
Speaker 2: you start to see backlogs in the nineties, so a

603
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:30,680
Speaker 2: lot of there were all these kits on file that

604
00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 2: have been filed, but many of them had not been tested.

605
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:38,080
Speaker 2: And that only became an issue decades later because of

606
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:42,520
Speaker 2: some amazing activists who worked super hard to bring it

607
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:45,600
Speaker 2: to everybody's attention. But that was you know, that was

608
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:48,520
Speaker 2: one of the problems, is like in theory, yes, this

609
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:52,600
Speaker 2: is an amazing way of finding finding serial predators. But

610
00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 2: in practice, if you're not actually testing the kits, you know,

611
00:37:56,719 --> 00:37:59,839
Speaker 2: that may not happen. I'm glad you brought up the exonerations.

612
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:02,360
Speaker 2: I think you know, when I talk about this, people

613
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:04,880
Speaker 2: kind of assume that the idea that if you have

614
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:08,440
Speaker 2: more kits, you're supporting the car sooral system, or you're

615
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:11,799
Speaker 2: supporting putting more people in prison. But the fact is,

616
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:14,279
Speaker 2: number one, we don't want to put the wrong people

617
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 2: in prison. Number two, you know, the kids have taken

618
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:22,200
Speaker 2: gotten a lot of people out of prison, and whatever happens.

619
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:25,239
Speaker 2: I'm not going to get into the issues. I not

620
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:28,399
Speaker 2: smart enough to figure out how the prison system should work.

621
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:33,680
Speaker 2: But whatever happens, we need to know who is attacking,

622
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:37,880
Speaker 2: violently attacking, and sexually attacking people like I think that

623
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:43,080
Speaker 2: information is extremely important to know what we do with it,

624
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:46,640
Speaker 2: how we treat that, how we decide what we decide

625
00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:51,600
Speaker 2: to do with especially the serial predators, that's another big issue.

626
00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:54,680
Speaker 2: But certainly knowing who those people are, being able to

627
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:57,879
Speaker 2: identify them and being aware of what they're doing and

628
00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:01,000
Speaker 2: hopefully able to stop it in some way like that,

629
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:03,919
Speaker 2: that's just an incredibly important thing. And it doesn't necessarily

630
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:09,080
Speaker 2: you know, honestly, there's so few convictions for sexual assault.

631
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:12,839
Speaker 2: It's not like any of this it's going to make

632
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:16,160
Speaker 2: it's making a lot of people go to prison or

633
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:17,280
Speaker 2: any of the right people.

634
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:21,680
Speaker 1: Well, you had a question that you were trying to

635
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:24,319
Speaker 1: solve at the beginning of your research, which is what

636
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:28,840
Speaker 1: exactly happened Marty. You said that in the eighties she

637
00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:33,120
Speaker 1: was touring and lecturing and educating and everything and got

638
00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:37,960
Speaker 1: burned out. So what did you find happened you know

639
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:40,600
Speaker 1: after that time? Is this when she vanished kind of

640
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:42,640
Speaker 1: from the newspapers and everything.

641
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:47,359
Speaker 2: She vanishes. And I was interviewing a number of people

642
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:49,799
Speaker 2: who had worked with her in the seventies and knew

643
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 2: her or were friends with her, and even they didn't

644
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:55,399
Speaker 2: know what had happened. They wanted me to find her.

645
00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:58,800
Speaker 1: Was she married or with kids or any family or anything.

646
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:03,040
Speaker 2: Well, one thing I was in touch with Cynthia Gary,

647
00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:06,320
Speaker 2: who had worked with her, you know, had been studying

648
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:09,400
Speaker 2: police violence in the early seventies and worked really closely

649
00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:12,880
Speaker 2: with Marty Goddard at that time and was also on

650
00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:17,840
Speaker 2: the Rape Task Force. And so I was pumping Cynthia.

651
00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:21,279
Speaker 2: She didn't know what had happened to Marty, but she

652
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:23,080
Speaker 2: knew a lot about Marty, So I was sort of

653
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:25,839
Speaker 2: pumping her for any clues that I thought would lead

654
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:30,399
Speaker 2: me to Marty Goddard's present day whereabouts, you know, family members, what,

655
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:35,000
Speaker 2: you know, anything. So I was hitting Cynthia with after

656
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:37,080
Speaker 2: we talked, with like a lot of emails, like I

657
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:39,440
Speaker 2: found this thing, do you think this is connected to

658
00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:43,040
Speaker 2: remember this? And in the midst of that, Cynthia sent

659
00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:47,120
Speaker 2: me this suddenly remembered something and sent me this string

660
00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:51,239
Speaker 2: of emails that I got. Well, I was hiking. It

661
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:54,520
Speaker 2: was really weird. I just remember how shocked I was

662
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:59,040
Speaker 2: that day that Cynthia suddenly remembered In the late seventies,

663
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:02,239
Speaker 2: Marty had gone on vacation to Hawaii and when she

664
00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:04,680
Speaker 2: came back, she called Cynthia and said that she had

665
00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:09,640
Speaker 2: been violently assaulted. And this was already with when she

666
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:15,480
Speaker 2: was working in Chicago, with running this system as far

667
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:18,520
Speaker 2: as I've been able to nail it down, and you know,

668
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:22,319
Speaker 2: getting those emails and then it was just very raw

669
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:26,200
Speaker 2: because Cynthia had just you know, all the memories had

670
00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:28,680
Speaker 2: come back and they were just very raw and jumbled.

671
00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:32,080
Speaker 2: But then as I began to talk to more people.

672
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:35,880
Speaker 2: I would ask them about this if they knew about it,

673
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 2: and I gathered more and more different points of view,

674
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:41,799
Speaker 2: you know, people telling me about, yes, this happened to her,

675
00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:44,880
Speaker 2: and I had actually in these oral histories, there was

676
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:48,719
Speaker 2: one where Marty had mentioned something happening to her and

677
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:51,440
Speaker 2: then I the tape with actually was not very good,

678
00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:55,919
Speaker 2: and she had mentioned something very brutal, and I thought

679
00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:58,080
Speaker 2: maybe it was in childhood or something, and then I

680
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:01,040
Speaker 2: realized she was talking about this particular attack. And then

681
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:03,839
Speaker 2: I was eventually able to talk to her sister, and

682
00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:06,680
Speaker 2: you know, whatever nail it all down. But the upshot

683
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:11,200
Speaker 2: was she was very violently attacked. She began drinking much more,

684
00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:15,360
Speaker 2: she began traveling all around the country and doing this work,

685
00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:19,680
Speaker 2: and people just lost track of her. And you know,

686
00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:23,920
Speaker 2: I eventually did find out what had happened and why

687
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 2: she had vanished, and you know, I can't answer all

688
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:30,839
Speaker 2: the questions, but I had a pretty strong story, and yeah,

689
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:33,479
Speaker 2: I learned a lot about you know, what happened after

690
00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:35,759
Speaker 2: that and sort of why she disappeared and why she

691
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:39,840
Speaker 2: wasn't able to ever be part of this forensic system

692
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:42,839
Speaker 2: that she really helped to create ever again.

693
00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:45,919
Speaker 1: And I don't know if we mentioned this, but part

694
00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:48,799
Speaker 1: of the interesting thing about your book is she had

695
00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:52,480
Speaker 1: known that people would not take this seriously if the

696
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:56,160
Speaker 1: kit were named after her, after a woman. That's why

697
00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 1: she sort of pushed Vitulo to be the name on it.

698
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:04,200
Speaker 2: Is that the document that is really surprising is that

699
00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:07,719
Speaker 2: there's a trademark document from nineteen seventy eight which is

700
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:12,799
Speaker 2: filed by Marty Goddard, her nonprofit you know under the

701
00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:17,400
Speaker 2: ageis of her nonprofit, and it is for a sexual

702
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:21,000
Speaker 2: assault evidence kit called the Viatulo Kit. So it was

703
00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:25,960
Speaker 2: clearly her decision to call it this, and a rape

704
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:28,840
Speaker 2: kit doesn't need to be named after any person, and

705
00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:32,520
Speaker 2: now isn't you know now would be called the mostly

706
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:36,480
Speaker 2: it's would be called the sexual assault evidence kit. Officially,

707
00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:39,319
Speaker 2: everybody calls it the rape kit. But you know, now, like,

708
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:42,160
Speaker 2: why does it have to be named after person? You know,

709
00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:44,319
Speaker 2: at the time, you know, as far as I've been

710
00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:47,880
Speaker 2: able to reconstruct the story, it was just very clear

711
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:52,960
Speaker 2: that the police department and the State Attorney General's office

712
00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:57,320
Speaker 2: really wanted credit for this, and that you know, again

713
00:43:57,400 --> 00:44:00,840
Speaker 2: you're with this system is going to take power away

714
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:04,440
Speaker 2: from the police department. They're not in control of it

715
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:08,560
Speaker 2: entirely anymore, and so you know, I think that that

716
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:13,560
Speaker 2: was a very smart calculation on her part. Again, you know,

717
00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:16,400
Speaker 2: she had been told by her friend inside the police

718
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:19,840
Speaker 2: department it's really important to get Batulo on board, so

719
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:23,000
Speaker 2: you know, that may have been part of it. Exactly

720
00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:26,360
Speaker 2: what happened and what that conversation is like, I don't

721
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:28,120
Speaker 2: know if we will probably ever know.

722
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:32,719
Speaker 1: What do you think the legacy is here? Because while

723
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:35,240
Speaker 1: the rape kit, of course is very important, it sounds

724
00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:39,120
Speaker 1: like her being out there being a face, really being

725
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:43,040
Speaker 1: an activist seemed to be as important. Am I right

726
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:43,400
Speaker 1: about that?

727
00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 2: Yeah? And I think also, you know, one of my

728
00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:51,200
Speaker 2: obsessions is really the politics of design and the fact

729
00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:55,800
Speaker 2: that everything we have, everything we interact with, is designed

730
00:44:55,840 --> 00:45:00,640
Speaker 2: by people and they have agendas. Every tech chnology that

731
00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:04,840
Speaker 2: comes along creates winners and losers. It's designed for certain

732
00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:08,520
Speaker 2: people and gives certain people more power, and it may

733
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:12,239
Speaker 2: take power away from other people. In this case, I

734
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:16,160
Speaker 2: think it was so important to have more of a

735
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:21,560
Speaker 2: survivor's point of view in the design of this system,

736
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:25,400
Speaker 2: that it is designed around the idea that it's an

737
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:29,279
Speaker 2: evidence based evidence system that every survivor will be listened to,

738
00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:33,239
Speaker 2: every bit of evidence will be collected, and we're not

739
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:36,240
Speaker 2: going to prejudge people. So, you know, I was really

740
00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:41,480
Speaker 2: interested in making that more obvious to readers, and also

741
00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:44,279
Speaker 2: to think about what are the problems with our designs,

742
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:48,960
Speaker 2: design now and our technology now, and who is it helping,

743
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:55,120
Speaker 2: who's it hurting? And who gets to design and create technology.

744
00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:58,040
Speaker 2: That's an huge amount of power to have.

745
00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:01,719
Speaker 1: Do you think that one of the next big steps

746
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:06,759
Speaker 1: would be making sure that not only you know, everybody

747
00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:11,880
Speaker 1: is able to have their evidence collected, whether the police

748
00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:14,680
Speaker 1: believe them or not. You know that everybody has that right.

749
00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:19,000
Speaker 1: But also I wonder about the training of the nurses

750
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:22,520
Speaker 1: who are not trained specifically to collect this evidence, or

751
00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:25,880
Speaker 1: the doctors. Is there any standardized training with how to

752
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:30,279
Speaker 1: deal with survivors of sexual assault? You know, while we're

753
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:33,239
Speaker 1: in a hectic area and whether it's a hospital or

754
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:36,480
Speaker 1: you are wherever it is, that seems that it could

755
00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:40,000
Speaker 1: be as traumatizing, you know, for a survivor, the collection

756
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:40,440
Speaker 1: of all this.

757
00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:43,640
Speaker 2: You know, really it's a matter of money, and we

758
00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:48,040
Speaker 2: could use thousands more forensic nurses. You know that would

759
00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:52,759
Speaker 2: be amazing. Another big problem is that the way that

760
00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:56,880
Speaker 2: evidence is defined, the kid itself and the way that

761
00:46:57,000 --> 00:47:02,160
Speaker 2: evidence is defined hasn't changed very much since the nineteen seventies.

762
00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:04,920
Speaker 2: So when I do talks, I kind of show the

763
00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:08,360
Speaker 2: original kit and then I show one of the kits today,

764
00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:12,319
Speaker 2: because there's probably more than a thousand in America. It's

765
00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:15,320
Speaker 2: also a complete tower of babble, you know, it's complete

766
00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:19,440
Speaker 2: chaos out there. So this is another thing. It's not

767
00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:23,040
Speaker 2: helpful to have all different kits with all different rules,

768
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:26,799
Speaker 2: which is you know, for the nurses. That's not good either.

769
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:29,839
Speaker 2: But anyway, the kit, you know, from the seventies, it's

770
00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:33,240
Speaker 2: all on paper, it's in cardboard. The kit today still

771
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:37,000
Speaker 2: almost all on paper, but just much more of a mess.

772
00:47:37,080 --> 00:47:40,400
Speaker 2: You know. The original one was very carefully edited and

773
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:45,080
Speaker 2: doable in a reasonable amount of time. The new kits

774
00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:48,799
Speaker 2: can have dozens and dozens of envelopes, most of which

775
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:52,279
Speaker 2: you would never use. They're all there. It's like, if

776
00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:56,040
Speaker 2: this totally rare event happened, use this envelope, you know,

777
00:47:56,360 --> 00:48:01,000
Speaker 2: because committees and crime labs keep packing them with more

778
00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:05,399
Speaker 2: and more stuff. There's just been no standardization. There's been

779
00:48:05,520 --> 00:48:08,480
Speaker 2: and again talking about design justice. There's been no kind

780
00:48:08,520 --> 00:48:12,319
Speaker 2: of sense of what the nurse needs, especially if she

781
00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:16,399
Speaker 2: hasn't been trained in forensics, you know, which is what

782
00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:19,840
Speaker 2: we seem to be doing now. That wasn't supposed to happen.

783
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:21,880
Speaker 2: But if that's what we're doing now, you know, the

784
00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:25,480
Speaker 2: kit should be very very easy to use, and it

785
00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:28,080
Speaker 2: can you know, there can be a lot of things

786
00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:31,160
Speaker 2: that shouldn't be in there, Like the crime labs I

787
00:48:31,239 --> 00:48:34,400
Speaker 2: learned are part of the problem in that they seem

788
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:37,080
Speaker 2: to have all the power they want to create new

789
00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:41,280
Speaker 2: different kits. That has asked the nurses to do things

790
00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:44,640
Speaker 2: that they want, whether that's what should happen or not.

791
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:47,680
Speaker 2: So an example of that would be some of the

792
00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:52,880
Speaker 2: kids might ask for what medication the survivor is taking,

793
00:48:53,080 --> 00:48:57,239
Speaker 2: even if that includes psych medication. That's not something the

794
00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:00,960
Speaker 2: crime lab needs to know or should know. They might

795
00:49:01,040 --> 00:49:04,839
Speaker 2: even ask to see the whole account of the testimony,

796
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:07,600
Speaker 2: which also the crime lab should not be seeing that

797
00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:10,800
Speaker 2: because the job of the crime lab is to test

798
00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:14,799
Speaker 2: samples and to come back with accurate tests. It's not

799
00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:17,880
Speaker 2: to judge. Again, it's not to judge which kits they

800
00:49:18,080 --> 00:49:21,600
Speaker 2: should process based on how they feel about the victim.

801
00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:23,920
Speaker 2: And I would also say the craziest thing to me

802
00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:26,759
Speaker 2: is all that it's still all on paper. Yeah, in

803
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:28,680
Speaker 2: a twenty first century world.

804
00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:31,960
Speaker 1: You know, we're not saying what happened to Marty after

805
00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:35,680
Speaker 1: all of this and her profile goes down. But do

806
00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:39,440
Speaker 1: you think that she understood the impact that her work

807
00:49:40,080 --> 00:49:44,919
Speaker 1: had or would have. I sometimes feel like it's such

808
00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:48,600
Speaker 1: a shame when people die before they see you know,

809
00:49:48,719 --> 00:49:52,200
Speaker 1: how prolific their one idea was and how much of

810
00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:54,640
Speaker 1: an impact. I know there's so many improvements that need

811
00:49:54,680 --> 00:49:56,319
Speaker 1: to be made, But do you think that she had

812
00:49:56,360 --> 00:49:59,160
Speaker 1: a sense that she really moved the needle on the

813
00:49:59,200 --> 00:49:59,960
Speaker 1: way other people did.

814
00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:03,839
Speaker 2: I think for a time she did. Yeah. I mean

815
00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:07,360
Speaker 2: it's hard because it's a whole many, many span of years,

816
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:09,440
Speaker 2: but I think there was definitely a period when she

817
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:12,839
Speaker 2: understood and she wanted to get back into forensic and

818
00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:14,640
Speaker 2: forensics and wasn't able to.

819
00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:29,120
Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the

820
00:50:29,200 --> 00:50:32,080
Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That

821
00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:35,440
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822
00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:39,720
Speaker 1: twelve seasons of my historical true crime podcast Tenfold More Wicked,

823
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Speaker 1: Right here in this podcast feed, scroll back and give

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00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:46,040
Speaker 1: them a listen if you haven't already. This has been

825
00:50:46,080 --> 00:50:50,280
Speaker 1: an exactly right production. Our senior producer is Alexis M. Morosi.

826
00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:55,160
Speaker 1: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This episode was mixed

827
00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:59,080
Speaker 1: by John Bradley. Curtis Heath is our composer. Artwork by

828
00:50:59,200 --> 00:51:03,600
Speaker 1: Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgarriff and

829
00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:07,840
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