1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,519 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom Never Told You from how Supports 2 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 1: dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen 3 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:17,239 Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline. And today on the show, we're talking 4 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:22,159 Speaker 1: about modesty. And before we get into the research that 5 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:25,880 Speaker 1: we found, we first wanted to share what some of 6 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:29,520 Speaker 1: you think about this issue of modesty UM. As we 7 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:32,640 Speaker 1: were researching, we took to the stuff Mom Never Told 8 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 1: You Facebook page and said, hey, what what are your 9 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:40,520 Speaker 1: thoughts on this issue about telling girls to cover up? UM? 10 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:46,159 Speaker 1: About this so called modesty movement taking place? And here 11 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 1: are just some samples of what some of you had 12 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:51,879 Speaker 1: to say. Yeah, I have a note here from Alice, 13 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 1: who brings up weather and body image all in one 14 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 1: fell swoop. She says modesty is just a social construct. 15 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:02,160 Speaker 1: There's nothing inherently wrong with bare skin. It is simply 16 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:04,400 Speaker 1: too hot where I live to be fully covered all 17 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:06,760 Speaker 1: the time, and I hate the double standard that allows 18 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:09,840 Speaker 1: men to go shirtless while women cannot. That said, I 19 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 1: personally tend to wear a bit more clothing because society 20 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 1: has successfully made me ashamed of my five pounds overweight body. 21 00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 1: Caitlin brought up something that a number of women also mentioned, 22 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:24,760 Speaker 1: which is the issue of boobs, especially if you have 23 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:30,240 Speaker 1: ample boobs, it can be harder to adhere to certain 24 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 1: modesty standards, So Caitlin writes, I personally choose to dress 25 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:39,480 Speaker 1: more modestly. I'm a bigger girl with a quote ample bosom, 26 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 1: so even the less revealing outfits can make me look 27 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:45,520 Speaker 1: a hymn endowed. I have zero problem with women my 28 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 1: size or any size, wearing whatever they feel comfortable. And 29 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:50,560 Speaker 1: though one of my dear friends, who is a little 30 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 1: smaller than me but still curvy, where's things that are 31 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 1: so low cut they would make me blush, But they 32 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 1: look amazing on her and she has the confidence to 33 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:02,160 Speaker 1: that is the key. Yeah. And Jamie adds to this, 34 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:04,919 Speaker 1: talking about how difficult it is to wear a skirt 35 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 1: when you are above average height. She says, even when 36 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:09,640 Speaker 1: I stick with a knee length skirt, I've been accused 37 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:12,400 Speaker 1: of showing too much. This is in the professional setting 38 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:15,240 Speaker 1: where others are wearing much shorter skirts. Plus I'm on 39 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 1: the busty side, so I can't win either way. Yeah. 40 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:21,760 Speaker 1: As a five nine almost five tin woman, I can 41 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:27,320 Speaker 1: definitely empathize with the leg length issue. Jennifer McPherson, though 42 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 1: made me laugh with her comment. Maybe this is why 43 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 1: in all of the quote future movies everyone pretty much 44 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:38,760 Speaker 1: just wears the same jumpsuit. Problem solved. I used to 45 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:42,639 Speaker 1: have a jumpsuit. I would totally wear a jumpsuit if 46 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:45,400 Speaker 1: a it wasn't challenging to find one that fit because 47 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:48,480 Speaker 1: I have a super long torso, and b if I 48 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 1: could actually pull off a jumpsuit, well yeah, no. Mine 49 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 1: was definitely not like a fashion jumpsuit. Mine was part 50 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 1: of my April O'Neil Halloween costume. It was bright yellow. 51 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 1: So if that's if that's in in the post apocalyptic future, 52 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:02,880 Speaker 1: then I'm all set and yeah, you're ready, You're ahead 53 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 1: of the curve. Well, I do think one thing that 54 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:09,640 Speaker 1: was interesting about all of the comments, because there were 55 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 1: a lot of them in response to that question about modesty, 56 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:17,959 Speaker 1: was how varied everyone's opinions were. We had a lot 57 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 1: of women firmly in the camp of modest disaddests and 58 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:26,320 Speaker 1: other women saying, you know, modesty is basically a social construct, 59 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 1: and other women saying, you know what, let's just take 60 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:33,040 Speaker 1: all of our clothes off because this is ridiculous. What 61 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 1: what's your opinion? Do you feel like people should sew 62 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 1: a certain line or just dress however it makes them happy, 63 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 1: even if that's just like a big bikini tap. What 64 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 1: do you think? What do you think? I think that 65 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:49,440 Speaker 1: there are certain situations that call for certain types of outfits. Obviously, 66 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 1: if you want to wear a bikini top to a 67 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 1: job interview, you're probably not going to get that job, 68 00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 1: unless you're interviewing for a lifeguard position or something like that. 69 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 1: I'm all for women dressing in a way that makes 70 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 1: them feel comfortable and confident, whether that is a turtleneck 71 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 1: and a floor link skirt or a crop top and 72 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 1: short shorts. Um. I think what's maybe more important, and 73 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 1: what we'll get into more in the podcast, is just 74 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 1: checking ourselves on the way that we talk about modesty, 75 00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:26,240 Speaker 1: specifically to girls, Because even though there might be a 76 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 1: lot of good intentions with talking to girls about the 77 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 1: importance of covering them up, covering themselves up, and you know, 78 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 1: leaving things to the imagination, a lot of it is 79 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:39,440 Speaker 1: often just framed as ultimately making sure that they are 80 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:45,599 Speaker 1: appealing sexually to men. Right. What do you think, Caroline? 81 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 1: I mean, I I share, I share your opinion. I 82 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:50,839 Speaker 1: think there's a time and a place for everything. I'm 83 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:54,040 Speaker 1: not going to wear my pajama shirt to a job interview, 84 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:58,720 Speaker 1: you know, or a tank top because I do have uh, 85 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 1: I am less in the bubular area, and so a 86 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 1: shirt that I might wear and find comfortable could actually 87 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 1: look to some people inappropriate in the workplace. Yeah, that's 88 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:13,840 Speaker 1: the thing. Once we get into the lines of like 89 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:17,239 Speaker 1: what is professional, that's when it does get hard, because 90 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 1: you can say I should be able to wear whatever 91 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:23,600 Speaker 1: I want. But then but also yes, like I I 92 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 1: hear that statement, and then I also think, well, there's 93 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:30,480 Speaker 1: the whole argument and modesty, which will we will obviously 94 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 1: get into in this podcast talking about like, uh, covering 95 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:38,920 Speaker 1: up for men or around men um, but also with 96 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:42,640 Speaker 1: my cleavage, I also want you looking at my face, 97 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:44,680 Speaker 1: you know. So it's not even so much that I'm like, 98 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:47,840 Speaker 1: I better protect myself by covering up. It's more like, 99 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 1: I just don't want my boobs to be an issue 100 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:54,039 Speaker 1: in every conversation I have. But is that then a 101 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 1: double standard if for someone like me who cleavage is 102 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:03,080 Speaker 1: rarely an issue because it's mostly invisible, in which case 103 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 1: I could wear the lower cut top to the office 104 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 1: and people would probably still be looking me in the eye, 105 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 1: even though as a tall woman, if I'm wearing he 106 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 1: might be face to face with my boobs. But you 107 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 1: know what I mean, does that ever feel like a 108 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:22,799 Speaker 1: frustrating double standard that if you are a more curvacious woman, 109 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:26,360 Speaker 1: whether it is in the boobular region, which is the 110 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:28,640 Speaker 1: scientific term for it, or a little lower down the 111 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:33,840 Speaker 1: butler region, that issue becomes a lot more challenging because 112 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:35,600 Speaker 1: it's like, well, then what am I supposed to wear? 113 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:38,520 Speaker 1: Do I have to just cover up my entire figure 114 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 1: in order to be deemed appropriate? I know, I I 115 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 1: I hate it. Yeah, I mean I will it being 116 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:48,600 Speaker 1: all of it, the conversation about it, the fact that 117 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 1: we have to work so hard every morning to pick 118 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 1: out something from our closet to go to work that's 119 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:55,799 Speaker 1: not in a prior And I don't mean like Kristen 120 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 1: and I going to work, I just mean work in general. Yeah, 121 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 1: you know, like it's such a challenge. And women are 122 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 1: told from the time they're itty bitty little kids that 123 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 1: they have to watch what they wear and and watch 124 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:12,480 Speaker 1: how they dress around people, especially boys and men. Yeah, 125 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 1: and this entire head scratching issue of how do we 126 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:20,240 Speaker 1: even talk about it? How do we hash all this out? 127 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:22,560 Speaker 1: Is why we wanted to do this episode in the 128 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 1: first place, because clearly, like I said, judging by the 129 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 1: outpouring of Facebook commentary, this is something that a lot 130 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 1: of other women have dealt with as well. So let's 131 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 1: go way, way way back in time. Um. And first 132 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 1: of all, I'll say that when it comes to this 133 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 1: very brief historical snapshot of modesty, we're not really going 134 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 1: to get very much into religion. Yeah, that could be 135 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 1: a whole other topic undo itself. There were a lot 136 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 1: of women on Facebook who brought up things like, you know, veiling, 137 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 1: traditional veiling in is Um, also head covering in Judaism 138 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 1: and even in some Christian denominations. But that's not really 139 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 1: what we want to get at. Yeah, we're we're kind 140 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 1: of gonna be focusing more in this episode on the 141 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:20,440 Speaker 1: sniping that goes on between and among women, more more 142 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 1: so in a secular kind of viewpoint. Yeah, not not 143 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 1: to say that there aren't certainly religious undertones to a 144 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:29,560 Speaker 1: lot of aspects of what is referred to as the 145 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:35,320 Speaker 1: modesty movement. In my personal upbringing in an Evangelical Christian home, 146 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:38,959 Speaker 1: modesty was a huge thing that was always talked about UM, 147 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 1: but yeah, we're gonna stick to the more secular And 148 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 1: we found this paper called let Modesty be Her Reignment 149 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 1: by Tamina Tarik from two thousand thirteen, and she talks 150 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 1: about the tradition of veiling in the pre Christian classical era, 151 00:08:55,320 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 1: so focusing on like fourth and third centuries BC. And 152 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 1: it turns out that for well to do women in 153 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 1: ancient Greece and Rome, veiling or covering their hair was 154 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 1: a way of a transporting the private domestic space or 155 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 1: the proper place for women into the public, and doing 156 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 1: so in a way that protected the honor of her 157 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 1: male guardians or father's husband's brothers, and finally outwardly symbolizing 158 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:31,080 Speaker 1: the value of her virginity. I think it's interesting that 159 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:33,679 Speaker 1: from the get go you have something that a woman 160 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 1: wears being tied into the honor of a man that 161 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:41,679 Speaker 1: she is with UM. But also this this isn't necessarily 162 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 1: all women in these cultures. People who were in the 163 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 1: lower classes, including slaves and peasants and others deemed inferior, 164 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 1: would not have veiled their hair because nobody cared whether 165 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 1: they were of honor or whether they were virgins. But 166 00:09:56,800 --> 00:09:58,960 Speaker 1: if you were a woman of means, you would certainly 167 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:02,440 Speaker 1: cover your hair with different kinds of head coverings at 168 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:05,440 Speaker 1: the time that were called pharaoh's him and nations and 169 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:10,520 Speaker 1: pep loose, and all of this was really to prevent 170 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:15,560 Speaker 1: the possibility of men looking at the sensualized parts of 171 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 1: her body, because in addition to veiling, she would also 172 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:20,319 Speaker 1: wear what we would think of is very modest clothing. 173 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 1: But it was important that the hair also be covered 174 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 1: because that was also a highly sensualized part and still 175 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 1: is of the female body. And by essentially blocking those 176 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:35,960 Speaker 1: off from view, the thought was, well, then that would 177 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:39,680 Speaker 1: lower the chances of him fantasizing about her, which even 178 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:43,560 Speaker 1: just in the fantasy realm, would demean her. Well, now, Kristen, 179 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:46,439 Speaker 1: you wrote about this whole hair issue on Stuff I 180 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:48,880 Speaker 1: Ever told you dot com, and I think it's interesting 181 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:53,960 Speaker 1: to bring up why hair was so sexualized during this time. Yeah, 182 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 1: if you go back to ancient Greece, Hippocrates, for instance, 183 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:03,400 Speaker 1: had this theory that at when men and women had 184 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 1: sexual intercourse, that his semen would actually be directed into 185 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 1: a woman's hair. So our long flowing hair is just 186 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:21,679 Speaker 1: a mass of semen magnets, and that and so in 187 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 1: that way, women's hair was seen as a symbolic extension 188 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:29,400 Speaker 1: of our genitalia that is just so weird and like 189 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:32,440 Speaker 1: the opposite of Acam's razor, Like why is semen filling 190 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:36,679 Speaker 1: up your hair? Like the simplest explanation for I don't know, 191 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:39,160 Speaker 1: because where else would it go? I guess they needed. 192 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:41,679 Speaker 1: I guess they needed someplace. Yes, where else would it? 193 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:45,360 Speaker 1: Where else couldn't go? But this is also side note, 194 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:46,800 Speaker 1: and I feel like we need to do a whole 195 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:48,960 Speaker 1: podcast on this because I want to learn more. This 196 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 1: also was very much linked to the tradition of a 197 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:56,720 Speaker 1: bride wearing a veil because she, you know, has her 198 00:11:56,760 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 1: face covered by the veil she's walking down the aisle, 199 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:04,160 Speaker 1: and in that way, her sexuality is still intact and preserved, 200 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 1: but then broken when the husband lifts it up just 201 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:09,480 Speaker 1: to gaze on her. It was the power of the 202 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 1: male gaze. They got the power of the male gaze 203 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:14,440 Speaker 1: all the way back in ancient Greece and Rome. Yeah, well, 204 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:16,760 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, we already talked about how women 205 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:19,560 Speaker 1: would wear headcoverings to go out to protect their honor 206 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:21,280 Speaker 1: and everything. When they went out of the house to 207 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:25,320 Speaker 1: extend that private sphere into public, and so by wearing 208 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:28,280 Speaker 1: that veil, the bride is being protected as she's handed 209 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:30,160 Speaker 1: off from the one man in her life to the 210 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:32,600 Speaker 1: other man in her life. Well, in addition to us 211 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 1: walking around with these all these seamen magnets on our 212 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:42,520 Speaker 1: head akair hair, this was also a time when women 213 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 1: were people were very concerned about protecting women's honor and 214 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 1: sort of covering up all signs of our sexuality, because 215 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 1: this was also an era when women were presumed to 216 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:56,720 Speaker 1: be sexually aggressive and prone to hysteria, and we would 217 00:12:56,840 --> 00:13:02,200 Speaker 1: essentially go wild if we weren't being physically attended to 218 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 1: do well enough. Well, so, in that argument, it only 219 00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 1: makes sense that women should dress modestly. If we're so 220 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:10,840 Speaker 1: aggressively sexual and we're always trying to trap a man 221 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:13,160 Speaker 1: into having sex with us and like doing things to 222 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:16,920 Speaker 1: our hair and whatever, well obviously we should veil ourselves 223 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 1: and cover ourselves up, right, Yeah, yeah, there are There 224 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:25,600 Speaker 1: are all sorts of conflicting messages that still though echo 225 00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 1: today in a lot of the modesty messages that girls 226 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 1: and women are being taught. And there was a quote 227 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:39,240 Speaker 1: from to Minatrick's paper that jumped out to me. Uh. 228 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:42,880 Speaker 1: She said, neither the veil nor its usage has ever 229 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:47,400 Speaker 1: been monolithic. The discourse of modesty, shame, and protection, however, 230 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:52,920 Speaker 1: has always been present. Uh. And and those three things, modesty, shame, 231 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 1: and protection are very much interwoven. In that relationship between 232 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:01,200 Speaker 1: those three factors, I think is a big reason why 233 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 1: we have all of these sort of questions about modesty today. Well. Yeah, 234 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 1: and speaking of the modesty movement today, when you move 235 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:14,439 Speaker 1: into the late nineties and early two thousands, you start 236 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:18,439 Speaker 1: to see a lot of literature being published on women 237 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:22,560 Speaker 1: remaining modest, dressing modestly, and how that will benefit them 238 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 1: both out in society and in their relationships with men. Yeah. 239 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:29,080 Speaker 1: There's Wendy Shallotte, whose name comes up all the time. 240 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 1: She's actually been referred to as the mother of the 241 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 1: modesty movement, and in her first book, A Return to Modesty, 242 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:40,440 Speaker 1: she wrote, many of the problems we hear about today 243 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:46,600 Speaker 1: sexual harassment, date rape are connected to cultures attack on modesty. 244 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:51,040 Speaker 1: And I believe that came out in and I remember 245 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 1: this clearly because I was in high school and this 246 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:58,640 Speaker 1: was the era of low rise jeans and Britney spears. 247 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:01,480 Speaker 1: At her peak before where she shaved her head and 248 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:07,200 Speaker 1: specifically Britney Spears at the MTV Video Music Awards wearing 249 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:13,200 Speaker 1: those low slung pants, sparkly pants with the thong visible 250 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 1: pulled out from it, and how horrified everyone was by this. 251 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 1: And I remember also having like a conversation after conversation 252 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 1: with my mother about why it should be okay for 253 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 1: me to wear thongs and how horrified my mother was 254 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:29,360 Speaker 1: at low rise jeans. There was a lot of modesty 255 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:33,520 Speaker 1: panic at the turn of the millennium. Interesting, Yeah, I 256 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:37,360 Speaker 1: had to, I definitely had to start buying thongs and 257 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 1: buy I I mean, my mother bought them for me 258 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:42,400 Speaker 1: because the jeans I was wearing were so tight. See, 259 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 1: my mother never would have because I gave her, of course, 260 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:50,960 Speaker 1: the argument of but visible panty line and she said, no, no, no, no, 261 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:54,760 Speaker 1: thongs are for sexual activity and you will not be 262 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:57,960 Speaker 1: wearing them. But she finally broke down. I think, like 263 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 1: my junior year and I just bought one. Huh. And 264 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 1: it's funny now that that as a thirty year old woman, 265 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 1: I'm like, I would never wear a thong anymore. I 266 00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 1: wear I wear the laser cut like really super thin 267 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 1: boy boy shorts instead, listeners are learning a lot about us. 268 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 1: They are I do not like a thong um. But yeah, 269 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:19,840 Speaker 1: so Shallotte's book I Return to Modesty, and then her 270 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 1: two thousand seven follow up, Girls Gone Mild. We're accompanied 271 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:27,520 Speaker 1: by Don Eden's two thousand six book The Thrill of 272 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:30,400 Speaker 1: the Chased. A lot of wordplay going on here, finding 273 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:34,240 Speaker 1: fulfillment while keeping your clothes on and Laura session Steps 274 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:37,720 Speaker 1: two thousand eight Unhooked how young women pursue sex, de 275 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:40,720 Speaker 1: lay love, and lose it both. And that's sort of 276 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:43,400 Speaker 1: a huge part of this modesty discussion among a lot 277 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:47,200 Speaker 1: of these authors, basically saying, like, part of the problem 278 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 1: is that young women are dressing really provocatively and slowly, 279 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 1: and they're feeling forced into dressing that way and engaging 280 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 1: in sexual activity, and we should empower our young women 281 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 1: to wear a turtleneck. Yeah. And there were a lot 282 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:07,000 Speaker 1: of common culprits repeated over and over again in these 283 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:10,840 Speaker 1: kinds of books. So, for instance, Britney Spears comes up 284 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:14,440 Speaker 1: over and over again. Uh, there's also the so called 285 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:18,199 Speaker 1: mom's gone wild Who are you know moms who we 286 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:22,280 Speaker 1: hear about who dressed even wilder than their daughters. And 287 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 1: along with that permissive parenting, sex educators, feminists, I mean, 288 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:30,399 Speaker 1: apparently feminists are very much to blame. Uh and of 289 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 1: course hook up culture as well. And and the big 290 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:37,440 Speaker 1: argument with these modesty books is that it's not just 291 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:42,640 Speaker 1: uh girls sexual purity at steak, it's also self esteem. 292 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:46,000 Speaker 1: That by dressing this way we are degrading ourselves and 293 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:51,359 Speaker 1: thus um just eroding our collective female self esteem. And 294 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 1: then on top of this we have very male Harvard 295 00:17:55,640 --> 00:18:00,399 Speaker 1: professor Harvey Mansfield who wrote Manliness, which urged women to 296 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:04,120 Speaker 1: cover up. He said that women play the men's game, 297 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:07,119 Speaker 1: which they are bound to lose. Without modesty, there is 298 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:11,640 Speaker 1: no romance. It isn't so attractive or so erotic to men. Yeah, 299 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:13,720 Speaker 1: and that kind of leads to the whole modest is 300 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 1: hottest sort of thing of, Well, if you really want 301 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:19,879 Speaker 1: to be as sexually attractive as you can possibly be, 302 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 1: then cover up so that you leave something to the imagination, 303 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 1: make him wait for it, make him win it, I guess, 304 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:30,160 Speaker 1: by marrying you, and then everything will be fine. Which 305 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:35,360 Speaker 1: that that's not a perfect message to deliver either, because 306 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 1: ultimately it's like wait, wait, I thought the point of 307 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:41,240 Speaker 1: this was to build girls self esteems outside of their 308 00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 1: sexual desirability. Oh wait no, you're telling them to cover 309 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:49,920 Speaker 1: up as a way to amplify their sexual desirability. Yeah, 310 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:53,680 Speaker 1: I know, it gets it gets super sticky because I mean, 311 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:58,959 Speaker 1: they're accusing feminists of ruining young women's lives. But there 312 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:01,440 Speaker 1: are people like shot all It are making the assertion 313 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:05,640 Speaker 1: that feminists as a whole, as this model lithic group, 314 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:07,760 Speaker 1: are telling young women you've got to go out there 315 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:10,000 Speaker 1: and have lots of sex with lots of people, or 316 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 1: else you're not a real woman or a real feminist. 317 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:14,159 Speaker 1: And it's like whoa, whoa, pump the brakes. That's not 318 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 1: a Feminism is about. Feminism is about choices right, and 319 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:19,680 Speaker 1: about supporting women and doing what they choose to do. 320 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:23,679 Speaker 1: And so while I feel that you should absolutely have 321 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:26,480 Speaker 1: the choice and the option to dress as modestly as 322 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:30,600 Speaker 1: you want, I think that we forget that women are 323 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:34,119 Speaker 1: sexual creatures too, And this whole discussion about modesty often 324 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:38,760 Speaker 1: circles around women covering up to protect themselves from men, 325 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 1: because feminists have been telling us that we should go 326 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:43,800 Speaker 1: out and have all the sex and no, no, but 327 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:47,199 Speaker 1: that's bad for society. It's more like, well, no, I mean, 328 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:49,679 Speaker 1: I think that just means that, for once, people are 329 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 1: remembering that women are sexual creatures to just like men are, 330 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:55,160 Speaker 1: and that we should have the choice if we so 331 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:58,359 Speaker 1: desire to dress however we want and have sex if 332 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 1: we want or not exactly. Well, I think that's the 333 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:06,080 Speaker 1: big thing. That or not is what's often left out 334 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:09,160 Speaker 1: of these conversations. There's never the assumption that it's also 335 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:13,200 Speaker 1: or not. Um. And on top of these books, they're 336 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:16,520 Speaker 1: also around this time in the early two thousand's and 337 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:21,719 Speaker 1: still today lots of pro modesty websites popping up clothing lines. 338 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:27,159 Speaker 1: There's even fashion magazine called Eliza that is all about 339 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:31,720 Speaker 1: modest fashions, how to look pretty and fashionable while still 340 00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:35,400 Speaker 1: covering up. Um. There's even something called the Pure Fashion 341 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 1: Training Program, which we started in two thousand and five 342 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:44,120 Speaker 1: to essentially teach girls how to dress modestly. I mean, 343 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:46,719 Speaker 1: it's it's all kind of different versions of the same thing. 344 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 1: A lot of it does have a Christian, very Christian undertones. Um. 345 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:56,399 Speaker 1: And as we have i'm sure very clearly hinted, not 346 00:20:56,520 --> 00:21:00,399 Speaker 1: everyone is a huge fan of this modesty movement. Really, 347 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:04,400 Speaker 1: when uh, girls gone mild by Wendy Shallotte came out 348 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:07,359 Speaker 1: in two thousand and seven, there was a lot of 349 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:12,840 Speaker 1: conversation about it and a lot of critique. Yeah. Around 350 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:15,880 Speaker 1: this time, the critiques that were coming out we're We're so. 351 00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:19,640 Speaker 1: I thought they put things pretty darn well, especially when 352 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:23,480 Speaker 1: from Shia Terran over at Bitch magazine where she talks 353 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:26,720 Speaker 1: about how girls and women This is a quote, girls 354 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:29,199 Speaker 1: and women are charged with being the gate keepers of 355 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 1: what's sexually appropriate, but what's judged inappropriate is measured by 356 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:37,440 Speaker 1: the effect it has on men. And I think this 357 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:41,560 Speaker 1: is the key to understanding the argument against this particular 358 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 1: modesty movement, because it's a catch twenty two because we 359 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 1: are the gate keepers of our own sexuality, but we 360 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:58,120 Speaker 1: are also responsible for a men's reaction to us. Yeah. Um, well, 361 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:01,160 Speaker 1: on something that Joshua Zits, who's the author of Flapper, 362 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 1: A mad Cap Story of sex, Style, Celebrity and the 363 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:08,480 Speaker 1: Women who made America Modern, was also talking to Newsweek 364 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:13,119 Speaker 1: about this whole modesty movement, and he said, the thing is, 365 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 1: this is really nothing new. They have always been culturally 366 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 1: conservative reactions to spikes in outward expressions of women's sexualities, 367 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:28,919 Speaker 1: as during the era of the New Woman and the 368 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:32,520 Speaker 1: Flapper people were horrified by it. And he says that 369 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:34,880 Speaker 1: quote the concern at the time was that the culture 370 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:38,119 Speaker 1: was sexualizing young girls. And we're talking about back in 371 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:41,480 Speaker 1: the twenties. Um. And he says that the backlash then 372 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:44,119 Speaker 1: came during the Great Depression, when you see a movement 373 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 1: to get women back into the home in part to 374 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:50,560 Speaker 1: correct this culture of licentiousness. So, I mean, and you 375 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:54,200 Speaker 1: can I feel like any time you have a progressive 376 00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:58,440 Speaker 1: cultural movement, especially one that trends more liberal, there's always 377 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:01,160 Speaker 1: the flip side to it. There's always the backlash. There's 378 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:03,959 Speaker 1: always the fear in the panic that that the status 379 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:06,600 Speaker 1: quo is being challenged a bit too much and it 380 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:10,119 Speaker 1: will all lead to us going to you know, just 381 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:12,720 Speaker 1: hell in a handbasket. Yeah, So what do we have now? 382 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 1: We have more women in the workplace, more women as bosses, 383 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 1: we have the gay rights movement, more and more states 384 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:21,760 Speaker 1: okay in gay marriage. There's a lot of one would 385 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:25,240 Speaker 1: say cultural change going on. Well, and more women having 386 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:28,719 Speaker 1: sex more openly, and by that I mean not like 387 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:35,359 Speaker 1: out in parks, but being more open about their sexuality, 388 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:39,080 Speaker 1: about choosing yes, about choosing to participate and going back 389 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:42,560 Speaker 1: to that quote from Shara Tarrant at Bitch Magazine talking 390 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:45,879 Speaker 1: about how we're the gate keepers of what's sexually appropriate, 391 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:50,280 Speaker 1: but we're also um being judged for it um and 392 00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:54,160 Speaker 1: Kareem at The l A Times wrote something similar. She said, 393 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:57,720 Speaker 1: it's not a lack of female modesty, but a sense 394 00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:00,600 Speaker 1: of male entitlement that leads to sexual island. So if 395 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:03,119 Speaker 1: we're looking at the modesty movement as a way for 396 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:08,000 Speaker 1: women to protect themselves and to remain pure and all 397 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:12,320 Speaker 1: of this stuff to remain safe, I don't think the 398 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:15,600 Speaker 1: modesty movement and obviously and Kareem does not either think 399 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 1: that this is the way to do it. People. It's 400 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:21,040 Speaker 1: not that wearing a turtleneck and a long skirt it's 401 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:24,160 Speaker 1: going to prevent rape from happening. Yeah, And that quote 402 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:29,119 Speaker 1: from man Kareem was in direct response to Shallots quote 403 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 1: in a Return to Modesty saying that many of the 404 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 1: problems we hear about today sexual harassment and date rape 405 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:40,000 Speaker 1: are connected to our cultures. Attack on modesty and saying 406 00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:43,600 Speaker 1: that how you dress will determine whether or not you 407 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:48,480 Speaker 1: will be raped is completely victim blaming and is disproven 408 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:53,919 Speaker 1: by statistics and also disproven by just taking a walk 409 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:57,560 Speaker 1: down the sidewalk in some sweatpants, you'll still get cat called. 410 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:02,440 Speaker 1: It just happens. Um. Obviously, there are lots of problematic 411 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:05,960 Speaker 1: messages that are tied up with this, when when ultimately 412 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:11,320 Speaker 1: the message should be There are certain times and places 413 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:14,680 Speaker 1: when certain uniforms are called for, as in the workplace, 414 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 1: sometimes in schools, etcetera. But beyond that, you know, women 415 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 1: should be taught to value themselves and have self esteem 416 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 1: outside of their bodies of sexual commodities. Um. Absolutely, But 417 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:34,639 Speaker 1: when women are being told addressed a specific way, specifically 418 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:40,639 Speaker 1: so that they will not you know, attract sexual assault, 419 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:46,040 Speaker 1: then that just doesn't even it doesn't even make logical sense. 420 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:50,360 Speaker 1: And just for one side note on all this, one 421 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:54,000 Speaker 1: thing that's often tied up with the modesty movement is 422 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:59,879 Speaker 1: virginity pledges, and studies have found that kids who do 423 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,639 Speaker 1: take virginity pledges are just as likely to have premarital 424 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:08,360 Speaker 1: sex and have higher rates of STD transmissions, probably because, uh, 425 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 1: they might not have received as comprehensive of sex education 426 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:17,639 Speaker 1: and they're doing things in secret, so something's not necessarily 427 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:21,119 Speaker 1: working by just saying nope, let's just just didn't just 428 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:24,879 Speaker 1: shut off your sexuality and everything will be fine. Well, Kristen, 429 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:27,640 Speaker 1: you mentioned dress codes and schools a second ago, and 430 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:30,520 Speaker 1: we are going to talk more about that whole issue 431 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:37,800 Speaker 1: when we come right back from a quick break. Now, 432 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,480 Speaker 1: I've talked about dress codes before on the podcast. We 433 00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:44,919 Speaker 1: dedicated an entire episode to this, So this is a 434 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:49,040 Speaker 1: little bit of rehashing, but it's important to talk about because, 435 00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:53,119 Speaker 1: especially when we're looking at modesty in more secular settings, 436 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:59,120 Speaker 1: school dress codes are the prime place where this happens. 437 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:03,440 Speaker 1: Where these men messages of girls, you know, your bodies 438 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:07,280 Speaker 1: are just distractions. Then this isn't this is where it's happening. 439 00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:13,919 Speaker 1: It's happening mostly in the classroom, and there are plenty 440 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:18,479 Speaker 1: of reasons why kids should be expected to dress certain 441 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 1: ways in school. I do think that there's a lot 442 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:25,960 Speaker 1: to the idea of dressing for success, and when you are, 443 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:27,720 Speaker 1: you know, dressed in a certain way, it kind of 444 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:32,119 Speaker 1: helps you feel better, it helps you pay more attention. However, 445 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:37,639 Speaker 1: a lot of dress codes take it too far and 446 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:41,960 Speaker 1: end up penalizing certain types of body types. Yeah, yeah, well, 447 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:43,600 Speaker 1: I mean it's the same thing that we talked about 448 00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:46,520 Speaker 1: at the beginning of the podcast. With any girl who 449 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:50,920 Speaker 1: is slightly curvy, er or bigger in any way than 450 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:55,560 Speaker 1: what is considered like a safe body almost is penalized, 451 00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:58,399 Speaker 1: like something will look too low cut or too short 452 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:01,080 Speaker 1: or to this or to that. God forbid. You're tall 453 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:04,240 Speaker 1: and slim, and your shorts are the exact same shorts 454 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:06,080 Speaker 1: that your friend is wearing, but they just look longer 455 00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:08,000 Speaker 1: on her and shorter on you. You know, it's like 456 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:12,439 Speaker 1: it's a lose lose proposition when it comes to getting 457 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:15,479 Speaker 1: girls in trouble for what they're wearing. And and I 458 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:17,960 Speaker 1: totally agree with you that, yes, there obviously should be guidelines. 459 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:20,800 Speaker 1: I went to school with a strict dress code. Um, 460 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:23,639 Speaker 1: But when you get into the argument that girls have 461 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:26,720 Speaker 1: to dress a certain way so as not to distract 462 00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:29,720 Speaker 1: the other half of the population at school, I think 463 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:33,159 Speaker 1: that's problematic. Yeah. I mean because tossing that too the 464 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:36,480 Speaker 1: fact that girls bodies are developing at different times, and 465 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:40,000 Speaker 1: when you are stay an eleven, twelve, thirteen year old 466 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:43,840 Speaker 1: girl and you got boobs out of nowhere, you got 467 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:47,480 Speaker 1: a butt or both out of nowhere, and you're kind 468 00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:51,959 Speaker 1: of dealing with how you know the world around you 469 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:55,280 Speaker 1: is now responding to this more womanly body while you're 470 00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:57,800 Speaker 1: still dealing with the fact that you have an adolescent 471 00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:01,719 Speaker 1: brain is confusing and confounding enough to begin with, But 472 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 1: to then have adults tell you that your body is 473 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 1: a dangerous distraction for yourself and for other people is 474 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:17,760 Speaker 1: certainly harmful. Um. And there are all sorts of examples 475 00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 1: of modesty and dress codes kind of gone wild. Uh. 476 00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:25,720 Speaker 1: There was one incident that went viral that a lot 477 00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:30,200 Speaker 1: of listeners have probably heard about during prom season earlier 478 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:35,960 Speaker 1: in when a girl went to homeschool prom and she 479 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 1: wore addressed it was short, but she double checked that 480 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:41,280 Speaker 1: it was going to be fingertip length even with her 481 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:47,160 Speaker 1: super high high heels on, and she was eventually kicked 482 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:50,720 Speaker 1: out of the prom because she was told by a 483 00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:56,000 Speaker 1: female chaperone that she was distracting male chaperones who were 484 00:29:56,000 --> 00:30:00,600 Speaker 1: watching her and watching her dance, to which she wrote 485 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:04,840 Speaker 1: a blog post about it and was enraged by understandably, 486 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,680 Speaker 1: and it went completely viral, right yeah, And she was 487 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:12,360 Speaker 1: basically arguing that she was within the stated dress code, 488 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:16,640 Speaker 1: that it was fingertip length, and more so, what are 489 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:20,120 Speaker 1: these male chaperin's doing looking down at all? Of us 490 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:24,000 Speaker 1: and judging what we're wearing and determining whether it's inappropriate. Well, 491 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:26,960 Speaker 1: not not even just judging, but actually saying that they 492 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:30,600 Speaker 1: were becoming too aroused by the sight of this like 493 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:33,920 Speaker 1: fifteen sixteen year old girl, so she needed to be removed. 494 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:37,240 Speaker 1: They didn't need to do anything with checking their own 495 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:41,000 Speaker 1: thoughts and fantasies. It was her as the gatekeeper of 496 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:43,960 Speaker 1: her own sexuality and apparently the reactions of everyone else 497 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 1: around her. She's the one who needs to be punished 498 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:50,520 Speaker 1: for that. And um, even I mean, I feel like 499 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:52,840 Speaker 1: things like that when when people are like, oh, well 500 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:55,600 Speaker 1: it's a homeschool prom, of course that's going to happen, 501 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:58,760 Speaker 1: because it's just a bunch of evangelical Christian nuts. That's 502 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:01,880 Speaker 1: where the only place that happens. No. No, As a 503 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:06,800 Speaker 1: past former evangelical homeschool, I feel okay saying that. And 504 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 1: also there have been issues in public schools at proms 505 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:14,960 Speaker 1: with girls who have dresses that meet the dress code, 506 00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:19,400 Speaker 1: but their bodies are simply deemed like to busty, No, 507 00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:21,440 Speaker 1: we can see too much of your boobs, we can 508 00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:24,560 Speaker 1: see too much of your butts, Go cover up. Mm hmm. 509 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:27,960 Speaker 1: But I mean talking about school. It's not just happening 510 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:30,800 Speaker 1: at high schools or elementary schools or whatever. It's also 511 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:34,760 Speaker 1: happening at nursing school. If we look at U T Austin, 512 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:37,960 Speaker 1: they had a modesty promoting sign hung up in an 513 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:40,320 Speaker 1: elevator I think it was, or somewhere in the hall 514 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:44,320 Speaker 1: that basically was like, hey, guys and gals, you're at 515 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:47,240 Speaker 1: nursing school now, so don't dress in appropriately. And it's 516 00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:49,440 Speaker 1: like if they had just left it at that, well 517 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:53,080 Speaker 1: it specifically said no cleavage, yeah, but they didn't just 518 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:55,200 Speaker 1: leave it at that. They listed like no cleavage, no 519 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:57,800 Speaker 1: short skirts, no short shorts, no this and that, and 520 00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:01,480 Speaker 1: so it was obviously targeting women and women's bodies, but 521 00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:04,440 Speaker 1: the sign was removed thanks to social media. The sign 522 00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:08,040 Speaker 1: was removed within twenty four hours. Yeah. And the thing is, 523 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:11,200 Speaker 1: this is where we get into the difference between intent 524 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:14,560 Speaker 1: and impact. Because you could say that the intent of 525 00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:18,800 Speaker 1: all of these messages is perfectly fine, well and good, 526 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:22,880 Speaker 1: because the intent is for girls to have a healthy 527 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:27,480 Speaker 1: self esteem, for them to you know, not experience sexual 528 00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:33,320 Speaker 1: harassment or sexual assault, uh, to create more positive and 529 00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:39,480 Speaker 1: effective learning environments, all perfectly good intentions. But The problem 530 00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:42,920 Speaker 1: is the impact is not that because a lot of 531 00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:46,480 Speaker 1: times the messages the girls are being delivered is that, 532 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:49,680 Speaker 1: you know what the fact of the matter is, you're 533 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:53,120 Speaker 1: living in a rape culture, so you better cover up 534 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:57,560 Speaker 1: because if you don't, you will be considered as someone 535 00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:02,440 Speaker 1: who is fine too sexually assault And that sounds extreme. 536 00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 1: But when you break down those kinds of messages, because 537 00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:09,440 Speaker 1: it's well, I mean, boys will be boys, so you 538 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:11,560 Speaker 1: better cover your boobs or else they're gonna want to 539 00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:16,720 Speaker 1: honk them like it just doesn't it's insulting to girls, 540 00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:20,480 Speaker 1: But it's also insulting to boys, yeah, because yeah, you're 541 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:22,680 Speaker 1: telling girls that your body is dangerous, you're going to 542 00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:25,440 Speaker 1: distract everyone and it'll be your fault if you get assaulted. 543 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:29,320 Speaker 1: But you're delivering the message to boys that well, it's fine, 544 00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:33,840 Speaker 1: boys will be boys. You obviously can't control your animal sexuality, 545 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:36,440 Speaker 1: so if you do assault that girl, you know, it's 546 00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:40,040 Speaker 1: just of course. Yeah, And there was one thing that 547 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:44,840 Speaker 1: I wanted to look into, which is kind of debunking 548 00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:50,160 Speaker 1: this whole boys will be boys nonsense, because I do 549 00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:53,240 Speaker 1: think that that a lot of it just strips everyone 550 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 1: of agency because essentially we're all powerless over our own bodies. 551 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,840 Speaker 1: Girls are powerless over you know, the messages that their 552 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:07,720 Speaker 1: cleavage might deliver, and boys apparently are powerless over the 553 00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:13,000 Speaker 1: messages that their penises deliver to their brains because a 554 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:15,600 Speaker 1: lot of times the commons that you hear is that, well, 555 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:20,440 Speaker 1: boys and men are just visual creatures, and you can't 556 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:24,000 Speaker 1: you know, we really do need to just protect what 557 00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:29,480 Speaker 1: they then see. But when you look into studies on 558 00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:35,759 Speaker 1: the sex specific responses to visual stimuli, yes, men are 559 00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:40,400 Speaker 1: completely visually stimulated, absolutely um but a so are women. 560 00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:46,200 Speaker 1: And also the specific response to the sexual messages that 561 00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:54,920 Speaker 1: men infer from said stimuli do have beyond biological influencers. 562 00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:57,239 Speaker 1: And what we're talking about is coming from a two 563 00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:00,960 Speaker 1: thousand seven meta analysis called sex specific Intent Preferences for 564 00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:06,120 Speaker 1: Visual Sexual Stimuli, a review by Kim Wallan and Heather Rupp, 565 00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:10,719 Speaker 1: and in looking at how men sort of uh respond 566 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:14,760 Speaker 1: when they are viewing a woman or women interacting with women, 567 00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:19,600 Speaker 1: they found that that sort of almost rape cultural response 568 00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:22,000 Speaker 1: that we expect that we think, oh, well, if a 569 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:26,080 Speaker 1: woman's exposed, that's her fault and she's just arousing all 570 00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:30,080 Speaker 1: of the men folk, that that response is actually minimized 571 00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:34,200 Speaker 1: in men who have more exposure to women have been 572 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:39,719 Speaker 1: in experience coeducational experiences with them. Um, basically as I 573 00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:44,160 Speaker 1: would interpret it, men who respect women as people more. Yeah, 574 00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:47,600 Speaker 1: there was clearly a strong correlation between the interactions that 575 00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:50,319 Speaker 1: men had with women, essentially like the more they were 576 00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:56,319 Speaker 1: simply seen as people rather than sex objects, and the 577 00:35:56,320 --> 00:36:01,080 Speaker 1: the inference from seeing a sexual stimuli at an invitation 578 00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:05,560 Speaker 1: and open invitation for them to approach and interact at will. 579 00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:07,920 Speaker 1: Because the thing about it is, I don't see anything 580 00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:12,080 Speaker 1: wrong whatsoever with men or women. That's another thing in 581 00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:15,960 Speaker 1: all of this. Women are also visually stimulated. But anyway, Uh, 582 00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:21,920 Speaker 1: I've see nothing wrong with men or women seeing another 583 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:26,360 Speaker 1: body and being sexually aroused by that. That is simply 584 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:29,640 Speaker 1: going to happen. I don't think the ultimate purpose of 585 00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:31,760 Speaker 1: watch what You dress is to try to like shut 586 00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:35,640 Speaker 1: down our complete and total sexual responses. It's more when 587 00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:39,479 Speaker 1: we get into the rape culture territory, it's more that 588 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:42,799 Speaker 1: visual stimuli and that thought of huh, wow, that's a 589 00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:44,920 Speaker 1: very attractive person, and even to the point of that's 590 00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:47,080 Speaker 1: a very attractive person and I wouldn't mind being naked 591 00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:50,880 Speaker 1: with them. That line then going into and you know what, 592 00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:55,040 Speaker 1: I'm just gonna go, you know, get naked with that person, 593 00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:57,960 Speaker 1: whether he or she likes it or not. Right, So, 594 00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:01,839 Speaker 1: then the researchers were also talking about how this whole 595 00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:05,440 Speaker 1: stereotype of men being so visually stimulated and women not 596 00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:09,160 Speaker 1: apparently being visually stimulated at all according to just stereotype. 597 00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:13,400 Speaker 1: They were talking about how because there's that expectation and 598 00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:17,080 Speaker 1: that stereotype that exists, that women are less likely to 599 00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:23,680 Speaker 1: say that they are sexually stimulated because of visual cues. Yeah, 600 00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:26,320 Speaker 1: I mean a lot of times we're not supposed to obviously, 601 00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:31,200 Speaker 1: Like women have for so long been the gatekeepers over 602 00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:35,120 Speaker 1: and over again of sexual propriety. You know, women don't. 603 00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:37,640 Speaker 1: That's why you know, the popularity of Fifty Shades of 604 00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:41,600 Speaker 1: Gray so mind blowing to people because it's women openly 605 00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:45,200 Speaker 1: saying like, oh wow, I'm really into this, and because 606 00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:50,840 Speaker 1: it's sexually arousing. Apparently women talk like this too. And 607 00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:54,680 Speaker 1: when it comes to sexual objectification, which obviously is a 608 00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:58,360 Speaker 1: big piece of this of seeing women not as people 609 00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:04,240 Speaker 1: but as sex object therefore their gratification, one two thousand 610 00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:09,279 Speaker 1: eight study found that there is a learned part of 611 00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:13,080 Speaker 1: that that's not just some natural, as we often call it, 612 00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:17,879 Speaker 1: instinct of a visual creature. No, it found that men 613 00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:22,520 Speaker 1: are often taught from an early age to emphasize physical appearance, 614 00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:25,960 Speaker 1: and that they tend to be more aroused in context 615 00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:28,560 Speaker 1: in which they can objectify another person, and that that 616 00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:36,279 Speaker 1: tendency is often learned because we're societally we cater to that. 617 00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:39,880 Speaker 1: Interesting And while that might sound like we have a 618 00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:43,360 Speaker 1: hopeless situation, that's actually good news is the fact that, 619 00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:47,280 Speaker 1: oh no, there's actually a lot of learning and socialization 620 00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:49,960 Speaker 1: involved with this. I think it's highly possible. In the 621 00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:53,640 Speaker 1: same way that we want to teach girls to refocus 622 00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:56,520 Speaker 1: their self esteem away from just the value of their bodies, 623 00:38:56,719 --> 00:38:59,560 Speaker 1: we can also teach boys to refocus the value that 624 00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:04,359 Speaker 1: they in women beyond just being potential sex objects. Right, 625 00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:07,800 Speaker 1: it's unlearning that entitlement we talked about earlier that actually 626 00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:10,440 Speaker 1: is what leads to the danger of rape and sexual assault, 627 00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:13,480 Speaker 1: not what a woman is wearing exactly. And I want 628 00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:18,359 Speaker 1: to underscore again that this isn't an argument for just 629 00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:25,360 Speaker 1: let people always, in every single context dress however they want. Um. 630 00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:28,759 Speaker 1: I think that it would be foolish to say that 631 00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:32,080 Speaker 1: that the way you dress will you know, shouldn't have to, 632 00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:34,400 Speaker 1: shouldn't make any kind of impact on what other people 633 00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:38,680 Speaker 1: think about you. There are issues when it's good to 634 00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:42,840 Speaker 1: dress professionally, or where it's good to dress in clean, 635 00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:46,560 Speaker 1: neat clothes, where you know, there's definitely an interaction between 636 00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:50,360 Speaker 1: how we dress and how we feel. Because I do 637 00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:52,760 Speaker 1: think there comes a time for a lot of girls, 638 00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:55,960 Speaker 1: especially when we hit puberty at least I can just 639 00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:59,279 Speaker 1: speak for myself, when you start getting curious about what 640 00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:02,600 Speaker 1: it is to feel sexy and feel desired, and you 641 00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:04,920 Speaker 1: want to dress in provocative ways and you want to 642 00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:09,160 Speaker 1: test those boundaries, and it's like, okay, Well, the question 643 00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:13,160 Speaker 1: then becomes, how how do we talk to girls about this? 644 00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:17,600 Speaker 1: How do we because I think just telling girls no, no, no, 645 00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:20,799 Speaker 1: just don't do that you'll be asking for it isn't 646 00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:24,200 Speaker 1: going to solve anything at all. Even if she does 647 00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:27,080 Speaker 1: say okay, it's nothing but overalls in turtlenext from here 648 00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:31,960 Speaker 1: on out, it's not really that's not really teaching her 649 00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:36,480 Speaker 1: anything beyond just what to put on. That's not you know, 650 00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:42,279 Speaker 1: that's not really building up um, building up this self esteem. Yeah, 651 00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:43,879 Speaker 1: I mean I think a lot of it goes back 652 00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:46,160 Speaker 1: to the choices that we talked about earlier, the choices 653 00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:50,400 Speaker 1: of dressing modestly if you so choose, and not tying 654 00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:56,080 Speaker 1: sexuality or or the potential for danger just to a 655 00:40:56,120 --> 00:41:01,400 Speaker 1: woman's body. Yeah, I mean because the taking this back 656 00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:05,719 Speaker 1: a few levels, it's not so much about the clothes. 657 00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:09,879 Speaker 1: It's the fact that, ultimately you know that the best 658 00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:12,880 Speaker 1: thing a girl can be called in our culture is 659 00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:18,000 Speaker 1: beautiful and desirable. And I think that that's where we 660 00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:21,959 Speaker 1: get into the trouble. It's not that girls want to 661 00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:27,000 Speaker 1: wear thongs when sometimes it's completely unnecessary, which brings up 662 00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:31,040 Speaker 1: my fellow up question of is a thong ever necessary? Really? Um, 663 00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:34,800 Speaker 1: More so than the clothes, I just think that it's 664 00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:37,439 Speaker 1: the issue that we need to take a closer look 665 00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:41,240 Speaker 1: at of, Well, why is it that the highest compliment 666 00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:43,160 Speaker 1: you can pay to a girl in our society is 667 00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:47,920 Speaker 1: that she's beautiful? Is that she is desirable? Is that 668 00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:53,120 Speaker 1: you know? And and why for boys is obtaining a girl, 669 00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:56,880 Speaker 1: of having sex with a girl some kind of prize 670 00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:01,440 Speaker 1: to chase down? And there there was one Facebook comment 671 00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:04,800 Speaker 1: that jumped out to me from someone who is arguing 672 00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:10,280 Speaker 1: in favor of dressing modestly because we have a natural 673 00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:15,600 Speaker 1: line of decency, to which I say, But then why 674 00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:18,239 Speaker 1: is it that if you travel around the world to 675 00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:22,800 Speaker 1: some areas, it's natural in quotes for women to be topless, 676 00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:27,200 Speaker 1: for women to be far less modest than we are 677 00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:31,040 Speaker 1: in Western society. All of that, really, to me is 678 00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:35,720 Speaker 1: evidence that modesty in many ways is a construct, and 679 00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:39,080 Speaker 1: we just need to pay close attention to what we 680 00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:45,359 Speaker 1: are really saying when we are saying be modest. Yeah, 681 00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:48,319 Speaker 1: I'm definitely interested to hear from people once. You know, 682 00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:51,200 Speaker 1: we prompted people before this episode to tell us what 683 00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:54,200 Speaker 1: they thought. I'm interested to hear the same people respond 684 00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:58,799 Speaker 1: once they've heard us, especially if you have girls. This 685 00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:00,640 Speaker 1: is the thing that I still don't I still don't 686 00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:03,840 Speaker 1: know how to talk to a girl about the issue 687 00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:10,759 Speaker 1: of dressing without alienating her from her own body, if 688 00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:13,800 Speaker 1: that makes sense. So if anyone has cracked that code, 689 00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:17,040 Speaker 1: please let us know. Mom Stuff at how Stuff Works 690 00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:18,759 Speaker 1: dot comm is where you can send your letters, and 691 00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:21,520 Speaker 1: I know we're gonna be getting a lot of them. 692 00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:24,560 Speaker 1: You can also message us on Facebook or tweet us 693 00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:27,440 Speaker 1: at Mom's Stuff podcast, and we've got a couple of 694 00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:29,840 Speaker 1: messages to share with you that I have nothing to 695 00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:36,560 Speaker 1: do with modesty right now. Well, I've got an email 696 00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:41,240 Speaker 1: here from Becky about our Women Traveling Alone, our Women's 697 00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:44,359 Speaker 1: Wanderlust episode. She writes, thank you so much for your 698 00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:47,720 Speaker 1: podcast about women traveling alone. I too traveled to Italy 699 00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:50,160 Speaker 1: on my own to study abroad. Well, it was pretty 700 00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:53,080 Speaker 1: nerve racking to fly international on my own. The freedom 701 00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:55,840 Speaker 1: I felt was amazing. It's also the best feeling in 702 00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:58,920 Speaker 1: the world after small victories like finding somewhere decent to 703 00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:01,000 Speaker 1: eat on your own, find in your plane, making it 704 00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:02,879 Speaker 1: through a day without feeling like you want to cry 705 00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:05,400 Speaker 1: a little. It's been five years since I went to 706 00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:07,920 Speaker 1: Italy and I'm looking forward to going back again. This 707 00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:10,319 Speaker 1: podcast gave me an extra nudge to make that goal 708 00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:12,640 Speaker 1: of reality. Whether I go by myself or with another 709 00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:15,759 Speaker 1: female companion. It makes me scared that I forego my 710 00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:19,000 Speaker 1: travel dreams, as corny as that sounds, just because I'm 711 00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:23,080 Speaker 1: afraid of experiencing things alone. So thanks for the encouragement 712 00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:28,840 Speaker 1: and thank you Becky. Alright, I have a letter from Rochelle. 713 00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:34,120 Speaker 1: She said that our Wanderlust podcast made her long for 714 00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:37,279 Speaker 1: her first solo travel trip to the States. Ten years ago, 715 00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:40,959 Speaker 1: she says. I'm from Perth, Western Australia, and I've since 716 00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:44,120 Speaker 1: been back to America two more times. Back in oh four, 717 00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:46,319 Speaker 1: I was twenty two and I had signed up to 718 00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:49,000 Speaker 1: work in an American summer camp in the Poconos. I 719 00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:51,600 Speaker 1: had a little time before camp started to see New York, 720 00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:54,040 Speaker 1: and lots of time afterwards to see the rest of America. 721 00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:57,000 Speaker 1: My parents were very concerned, and my dad even gave 722 00:44:57,040 --> 00:44:59,040 Speaker 1: me a rape whistle, which I assured him I wouldn't 723 00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:01,600 Speaker 1: need try billing alone. I had a lot of interesting 724 00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:03,960 Speaker 1: experiences that I wouldn't have had if I was traveling 725 00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:07,080 Speaker 1: with someone. My first interesting experience happened when I got 726 00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:09,400 Speaker 1: off the subway in New York after flying in. I 727 00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:11,640 Speaker 1: had booked a hostel a little further out than I thought. 728 00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:13,680 Speaker 1: I thought i'd booked somewhere on the Upper West Side, 729 00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:15,960 Speaker 1: and it ended up being in Harlem. When I came 730 00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:17,879 Speaker 1: up from the subway, a guy approached me and asked 731 00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:19,920 Speaker 1: if I needed help with my luggage. He could have 732 00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:22,960 Speaker 1: been just being a complete gentleman. However, I said that 733 00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:26,000 Speaker 1: I was fine and carried onto my hostel. It's very 734 00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:28,080 Speaker 1: true that you were approached more often when you're alone. 735 00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:30,360 Speaker 1: In New York, I was approached by another tourist asking 736 00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:32,840 Speaker 1: me for directions, and in l A, I was waiting 737 00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:34,920 Speaker 1: at a bus stop when an ausee couple asked me 738 00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:38,280 Speaker 1: the difference between dimes and nickels. After a minute of talking, 739 00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:41,680 Speaker 1: they realized they frequented the store where I worked. Back home, 740 00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:45,400 Speaker 1: Very small world. I also had the interesting experience of 741 00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:48,280 Speaker 1: staying in a unisex four bed dorm for two weeks, 742 00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:50,120 Speaker 1: and the whole time I was the only female in 743 00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:52,239 Speaker 1: the room while the men came and went. I never 744 00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:54,719 Speaker 1: felt threatened. I ended up being taken under the wing 745 00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:56,600 Speaker 1: of a slightly older German dude who took me on 746 00:45:56,680 --> 00:45:58,960 Speaker 1: all sorts of crazy adventures I never would have gotten 747 00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:03,000 Speaker 1: into had I not been traveling alone. UM So, Rochelle, 748 00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:06,880 Speaker 1: I'm so glad you had some amazing solo travel experiences. 749 00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:10,799 Speaker 1: I um just had my own to a Ruba not 750 00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:13,239 Speaker 1: too long ago, and it was awesome and I I 751 00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:15,560 Speaker 1: definitely felt like I press pressed the reset button. I 752 00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:19,319 Speaker 1: think traveling alone is something that you, the general, you 753 00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:22,319 Speaker 1: should all do if you get the chance. And thanks 754 00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:24,560 Speaker 1: everybody who's written into us. Mom stuff at how stuff 755 00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:26,680 Speaker 1: works dot com is our email address, and you can 756 00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:30,000 Speaker 1: also find all of our social media links, as well 757 00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:34,680 Speaker 1: as all of our blogs, videos, and podcasts, including this one, 758 00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:38,200 Speaker 1: which will also include all of our sources, so you 759 00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:40,640 Speaker 1: can follow along with us over at stuff mom Never 760 00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:47,680 Speaker 1: Told You dot com. For more on this and thousands 761 00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:57,080 Speaker 1: of other topics, how stuff works dot com