1 00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:03,640 Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here 2 00:00:03,840 --> 00:00:06,320 Speaker 1: and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of 3 00:00:06,360 --> 00:00:08,560 Speaker 1: ways we can up our game for this critical election. 4 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:11,719 Speaker 2: We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade 5 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 2: the studio ad staff, give you, guys, the best independent. 6 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:16,239 Speaker 3: Coverage that is possible. 7 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:18,279 Speaker 2: If you like what we're all about, it just means 8 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:20,000 Speaker 2: the absolute world to have your support. 9 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 3: But enough with that, let's get to the show. 10 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:26,880 Speaker 1: So we've got a few updates for you with regards 11 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:30,440 Speaker 1: to wherever we are with that ceasefire proposal. First, we 12 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 1: wanted to bring you Jake Taper announcing on his program 13 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:37,600 Speaker 1: that Hamas had rejected the deal, which was not exactly 14 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:39,879 Speaker 1: exactly accurate and getting corrected in real time. 15 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:40,760 Speaker 4: Let's take to listen to that. 16 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:44,320 Speaker 5: Haamas has responded to the latest proposal for a hostage 17 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 5: and ceasefire deal, and Hamas has rejected it. CNN political 18 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:50,919 Speaker 5: and foreign policy analyst Barack Ravide is breaking this. Did 19 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 5: Hamas Barrock give any explanation for its rejection? 20 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:00,280 Speaker 6: Hi, Jake, So, First, Hamas did not say that it 21 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:04,800 Speaker 6: rejected the deal. Hamas said that it gave a response 22 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:08,880 Speaker 6: to the Katarian Egyptian mediators that it gave several comments 23 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:13,480 Speaker 6: and remarks on parts of the Israeli proposal. Israel, the 24 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:17,760 Speaker 6: Israeli government, Israeli officials are the ones saying that after 25 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:21,320 Speaker 6: they received Hamas's response and analyzed. 26 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 7: It, they treated as a rejection. I think we still 27 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:29,280 Speaker 7: need to hear from the mediators and most importantly from 28 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 7: the White House. That White House spokesman John Kirby said 29 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:37,480 Speaker 7: that the whites is still analyzing and studying the Hamas response. 30 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 7: So Hamas is saying it just gave a few comments, 31 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 7: Israeli saying Hamas rejected the deal. The White House still 32 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 7: hasn't said anything of substance. I think we should wait 33 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:50,920 Speaker 7: and hear more what the White House says, what the 34 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 7: Qataris say, and what. 35 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:53,080 Speaker 3: The Egyptians say. 36 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 7: What I heard from US officials in the last few 37 00:01:56,880 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 7: weeks is that because sinoar thinks that as the war 38 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 7: goes on, Israel will be more under pressure in the 39 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 7: US will put more pressure on Israel. This is why 40 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 7: they try to mobilize the international community to support President 41 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 7: Biden's speech, including the Security Council resolution that passed yesterday. 42 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 7: That the Biden administration thought that if Sinwar cares so 43 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 7: much about the international pressure on Israel, maybe when he 44 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:28,960 Speaker 7: sees the Security Council resolution, he'll have second thoughts on 45 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 7: where the international pressure is directed. Maybe he'll understand that 46 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 7: he's also under pressure, and not only these ways. 47 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:39,520 Speaker 1: So kind of a funny and subtly revealing moment there, 48 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:42,640 Speaker 1: because the actual story was israeally officials had said, and 49 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:46,359 Speaker 1: that was the Axios headline. Israeli officials had said, a 50 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:48,480 Speaker 1: monster rejection of the deal, and Taffer just takes. 51 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:50,640 Speaker 4: Us a monster rejected the deal because he just takes. 52 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 3: Their hard work. 53 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 2: That the Israeli journalist who is an Israeli citizen and 54 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:57,120 Speaker 2: I believe he served in the idea previously, he said 55 00:02:57,480 --> 00:02:59,000 Speaker 2: a whole dude, He's like. 56 00:02:58,960 --> 00:02:59,919 Speaker 3: That's just what the isral. 57 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:03,359 Speaker 2: That's a perfect example, is that the Israeli media more 58 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 2: skeptical of their own government or of their own coverage 59 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 2: than the US media. 60 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:10,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, how else can you that is it? 61 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:11,519 Speaker 2: You used to look at that and put it in 62 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:13,400 Speaker 2: a time capsule, look at it from all the time 63 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 2: for perfect moment. 64 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:17,360 Speaker 1: But I mean I have to say, like I've read 65 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:20,240 Speaker 1: everything there is to read about their response and where 66 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 1: we are, and it's honestly impossible to parse what is 67 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 1: going on behind the scenes because it's very difficult to 68 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 1: separate the spin from the reality of who is position. 69 00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:34,080 Speaker 1: Where the best that I can come to, I want 70 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 1: to show you some elements here that give you a 71 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:38,440 Speaker 1: sense of what we know, But I think we're still 72 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:42,440 Speaker 1: just at this fundamental impasse where Hamas wants to remain 73 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 1: in existence because they're self interested. They want the war 74 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 1: to end and there to actually be a permanent ceasefire 75 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 1: and some guarantee of that, and Israel, especially led by 76 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 1: Bibana and Yahoo, does not want the war to end. 77 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 1: And it seems to be that that's a pretty unbridgable divide, 78 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 1: at least without us exerting much more pressure than they 79 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 1: have to date to make this thing happen. We did 80 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 1: hear from Tony Blinkoln He described his characterization of what 81 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 1: Hamas's response was here, saying that some of the changes 82 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:17,600 Speaker 1: were minor, others were unacceptable and unworkable. 83 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:19,320 Speaker 4: As take a listen to his exact words. 84 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 8: Hamas has proposed numerous changes to the proposal that was 85 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 8: on the table. We discussed those changes last night with 86 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:31,839 Speaker 8: Egyptian colleagues and today with the Prime Minister. Some of 87 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 8: the changes are workable, some are not. A deal was 88 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 8: on the table that was virtually identical to the proposal 89 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 8: that Hamas puldfore on May the sixth, a deal that 90 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:49,720 Speaker 8: the entire world is behind, a deal Israel's accepted, and 91 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:55,160 Speaker 8: Hamas could have answered with a single word yes. Instead, 92 00:04:55,960 --> 00:05:01,080 Speaker 8: Amas waited nearly two weeks and then proposed more change, 93 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:04,600 Speaker 8: a number of which go beyond positions that had previously 94 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:06,359 Speaker 8: taken then accepted. 95 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 1: So listen, I'm not portraying Hamas. It's like a good 96 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 1: actor in this, but it's worth being skeptical of the 97 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:14,479 Speaker 1: US's commentary here as well, because they clearly from the 98 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 1: beginning they've framed this as this is the Israeli proposal 99 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 1: and they totally support it. It's Hamasa's standing in the 100 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 1: way when Israel, you know, the leaders of Israel Nanyahu 101 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:27,599 Speaker 1: in particular, were consistently saying, well, actually, we don't agree 102 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 1: with what the US is put forward, and this isn't 103 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:33,359 Speaker 1: exactly reflective of our proposal. So in any case, you 104 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 1: can take that for what it's worth. We also have 105 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 1: some harets reporting about according to Israeli officials what they 106 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:43,360 Speaker 1: are saying. Hamas's objections were here some of the provisions 107 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: that are considered quote unquote unworkable. So they've demanded that 108 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:50,839 Speaker 1: the ceasefire agreements stipulate that Israel withdraw from all areas 109 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:52,240 Speaker 1: of the Gaza Strip in the first week of the 110 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 1: deal's implementation, that if Israel does not do so, the 111 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:58,920 Speaker 1: release of hostages will be halted. In a response given 112 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 1: by Hamas and mediators on Wednesday, the group is seeking 113 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 1: a complete cessation of fire from the Israeli army, the 114 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 1: withdrawal of the idea from population centers on the first 115 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:09,679 Speaker 1: day of the ceasefire. On the third day, Hamas seeks 116 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:12,719 Speaker 1: and Israeli withdrawal from the sala Addin Road, which connects 117 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 1: between both sides of the strip and the coastal Road. 118 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:18,160 Speaker 1: Sources in Hamas told Haratz that the amendments that were 119 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:21,039 Speaker 1: submitted are intended to ensure the withdrawal and ceasefire be 120 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 1: established in the first phase, and that Israel will not 121 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 1: be able to evade the implementation of all stages of 122 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 1: the deal and return to fighting once all hostages are released. 123 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 1: They also want China, Russia, and Turkey to be guaranteurs 124 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 1: of the deal, So again Sagur. To me, it seems 125 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 1: to come down to this fundamental divide that Hamas wants 126 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:42,440 Speaker 1: the war to be over, a ceasefire to be permanent, 127 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:45,799 Speaker 1: and Israel wants to keep their options open to continue 128 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 1: the shooting and the bombing once Phase one is up. 129 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, I just think it's not. I don't at this point, 130 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:55,159 Speaker 2: I almost think it's impossible. Israel wants Hamas to commit 131 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:57,479 Speaker 2: to a sea spire, release the hostages, and then commit 132 00:06:57,520 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 2: to not being in power after the war is over. 133 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 3: Is like, no, I'm not going to do. 134 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:05,159 Speaker 2: No organization, And again I am not defending them, but 135 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:08,520 Speaker 2: what I am saying is that no organization except literally 136 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 2: exhausting every single other option, is going to agree to 137 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 2: effectively what is an unconditional surrender. There was a Wall 138 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:19,239 Speaker 2: Street Journal article that quoted a lot of leaked texts 139 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 2: from Yahwa Sinwar, the head of Hamas, and the headline 140 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 2: was basically like Sinwar willing to sacrifice like hundreds of 141 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 2: thousands of Palestinians because he believes that he is winning 142 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:30,880 Speaker 2: the war. And I was starting to think about it, 143 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:33,440 Speaker 2: I think he is a lot like any of these 144 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 2: other like insurgent character leaders who is in like a 145 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 2: nationalistic struggle against a stronger enemy. And again I'm not 146 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 2: justifying purely analysis, but if you look at Ho Chi 147 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 2: Minh and others, huge portions of the polit bureau during 148 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 2: the NVA, we're like, yeah, we're going to lose a 149 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:53,280 Speaker 2: million Vietnamese at the end of the day, there's protests 150 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:56,080 Speaker 2: that are happening in the US. We can outlast, you know, 151 00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 2: these Yankee imperialists, and. 152 00:07:57,960 --> 00:07:58,520 Speaker 3: We will win. 153 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:01,120 Speaker 2: And they want us to surrender to them. They want 154 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 2: us to literally give up our ability to govern what 155 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 2: we see as our own country. 156 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 3: As long as we outlast them, we will win. And 157 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 3: they were right. 158 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 2: And basically what he says in a lot of these 159 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 2: text messages is yeah, it's sad, but a lot of 160 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 2: people are going to continue to die. You can see 161 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 2: that the West is beginning to rise up. There's a 162 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 2: lot of outrage over the Israeli state. All I have 163 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 2: to do is survive up until the point where their 164 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 2: government breaks and international pressure comes. And the way that 165 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 2: they are conducting themselves is giving their opponents all the 166 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 2: ammunition that they need. 167 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:33,719 Speaker 3: Well, he's like, I mean, in a very rational. 168 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:37,160 Speaker 2: Way, he is exhibiting his own best self interests and 169 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:39,600 Speaker 2: he has hostages to negotiate with. 170 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 3: And I think I said this on our editorial call. 171 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:45,440 Speaker 2: Everyone's like, well, they should just give up and release them, Like, yeah, look, 172 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:48,240 Speaker 2: I agree, it would be nice, But there's only really 173 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:52,120 Speaker 2: a few recorded instances in history where a group actually 174 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:56,640 Speaker 2: voluntarily surrenders and puts itself up for annihilation. The Japanese 175 00:08:56,880 --> 00:08:59,040 Speaker 2: under World War two, and even then they had to 176 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:00,440 Speaker 2: agree that they were going to be able to keep 177 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 2: their emperor after we nuked them and effectively annihilated the 178 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 2: vast majority of their populated cities. And Nazi Germany, where 179 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:12,560 Speaker 2: again we militarily occupied them and gave them no other 180 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:15,200 Speaker 2: choice after they fought to the death for every single 181 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:19,120 Speaker 2: scrap of their territory absent that it's not going to happen. 182 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 3: As we saw with the Nazis, we had. 183 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:23,840 Speaker 2: Conquered the vast majority of Germany and they still wouldn't surrender. 184 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:26,280 Speaker 2: So you know, you can see you really only have 185 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 2: one or two options here, like you can give up 186 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 2: on this quote unquote unconditional. 187 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 3: Surrender or you can continue. 188 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:33,480 Speaker 2: And he's going to keep pursuing the strategy which is 189 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:34,440 Speaker 2: in his own best interest. 190 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:37,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, there was a revealing State Department exchange a few 191 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 1: days back that really underscores the point you're making Soccer, 192 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:44,319 Speaker 1: which is like, listen, if you're going to have a negotiation, 193 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:47,640 Speaker 1: both sides have to feel like they're getting something out 194 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:51,280 Speaker 1: of it, and if you're on the Hama side, and 195 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:53,719 Speaker 1: again this is just you know, to analyze the way 196 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 1: they're looking at things. It's like, oh, I'm just going 197 00:09:56,320 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 1: to agree to you can go back to bombing, and 198 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 1: also we're going to just self destruct and go away. 199 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:02,839 Speaker 4: Why would we agree to that? 200 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:06,559 Speaker 1: And that exact question, this is d four guys that 201 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:10,319 Speaker 1: I'm queuing up. That exact question was put to Matt 202 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:13,680 Speaker 1: Miller in a State Department briefing, and frankly, his answer 203 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:15,199 Speaker 1: was utterly preposterous. 204 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:15,800 Speaker 4: Take a listen. 205 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:18,599 Speaker 9: Hamas just a few weeks ago signed off on it, 206 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:20,320 Speaker 9: but first identical proposal. 207 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:22,240 Speaker 10: But you just spoke to the points of why this 208 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 10: would be wonderful for Israel. And you know, there's the 209 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:30,160 Speaker 10: way you've approached this so far, is that Hama the 210 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 10: way a lot of people have approached that. Hamas doesn't 211 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:35,160 Speaker 10: care about the housing people. They only care about themselves, 212 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:39,680 Speaker 10: and so there are in a sense three parties to 213 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:44,080 Speaker 10: this Israel, the palsing people, non Hamas and Hamas. So 214 00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:47,360 Speaker 10: but I think the answer to my question, which is 215 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:50,280 Speaker 10: what's in it for Hamas is essentially nothing for that. 216 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:56,400 Speaker 9: So again, right, So they claim to represent I'm not 217 00:10:56,440 --> 00:10:58,840 Speaker 9: trying to be cute. They claim to represent the interests 218 00:10:58,840 --> 00:10:59,200 Speaker 9: of the past. 219 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:00,120 Speaker 7: I don't believe that. 220 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:02,200 Speaker 10: And you've made it clear many many times that you 221 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:03,720 Speaker 10: don't think that they do care about. 222 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:06,960 Speaker 9: I suppose this. I suppose that this proposal puts that 223 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:08,440 Speaker 9: question very square, didn't. 224 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:10,080 Speaker 10: The last one and the one before that and the 225 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:10,839 Speaker 10: one before. 226 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 9: Given that this one is nearly identical to the one 227 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:16,320 Speaker 9: that Amas presented, I think so. 228 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:20,320 Speaker 1: Madley, by the way, incredible, just always nails these guys 229 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 1: dead to rights. But he's like, you're betting on Hamas 230 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:26,319 Speaker 1: to put like this the safety of the Palestinian people first. 231 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:30,560 Speaker 1: You're betting on like the goodwill of Hamas and for 232 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:34,200 Speaker 1: them to not be self interested whatsoever. In what other 233 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:37,079 Speaker 1: sense of this conflict do you hold that view? 234 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 4: Now? I would also add to that. 235 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:42,280 Speaker 1: I mean, in addition to the idea that you're you're 236 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:44,320 Speaker 1: giving them nothing and expecting them to just you know, 237 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:49,800 Speaker 1: completely capitulate in total surrender. But also Hamas's provisions are 238 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 1: designed to guarantee there is in fact a permanent ceasefire. 239 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 1: And this is something that you can go and listen 240 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:57,439 Speaker 1: to Beabing and Yahoo and they're you know, you unrepresented. 241 00:11:57,559 --> 00:12:00,440 Speaker 1: All these people in government themselves say they do not 242 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:03,520 Speaker 1: accept that, they will not commit to that. So there 243 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:05,960 Speaker 1: also is just this even if you know you want 244 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:07,959 Speaker 1: to growl Hamas has only the good will of the 245 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 1: palasing people in mind. Even through that frame, they wouldn't 246 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:16,080 Speaker 1: accept without some sort of conditions and guarantee that there 247 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:20,560 Speaker 1: is a permanent ceasefire. There was an interesting exchange on 248 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 1: Maddie Hawson's networks at Taiale with the nephew of a 249 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 1: hostage explaining his view of Bibi's mentality and the way 250 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 1: that he's been approaching these negotiations that I thought was 251 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:33,040 Speaker 1: worth hearing out as well as take a listen to. 252 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:37,559 Speaker 11: That always he and the government always choose the wrong way, 253 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:44,720 Speaker 11: and always, ever since October eighth, everything they do is 254 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:49,839 Speaker 11: directed at not getting the hostages back. This is the 255 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:54,400 Speaker 11: plain truth. They had many opportunities to sign a deal 256 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:58,760 Speaker 11: they're always abotaging their own initiatives. When people from the 257 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 11: professional you know, the negotiating team itself are crying out loud, 258 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:08,240 Speaker 11: this this thing can go on. We were sabotaging our 259 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:12,560 Speaker 11: own moves. And this is the reality for the past 260 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:16,920 Speaker 11: nine months. This is why we didn't get any hostages 261 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:21,560 Speaker 11: back alive. And Nataia was the first to jump on 262 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:25,960 Speaker 11: the photo app and push inside, push himself inside the 263 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:30,360 Speaker 11: frame with his post, as he said, called the heroic 264 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 11: military operation. The other that came back doing the hostage deal, 265 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 11: it didn't get a visit. It's not such a good 266 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:45,720 Speaker 11: photo app apparently for his base to see people coming 267 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 11: alive and well in a deal. 268 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:49,959 Speaker 4: Yeah, and I think he puts that. 269 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 1: I mean, it's like that's the inescapable truth at this point, 270 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:58,760 Speaker 1: because there were have been deals, potential deals available all 271 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 1: the way along. We know the bulk of the hostages 272 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 1: that were released overwhelmingly came in the context of a deal. 273 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 1: We also, this is something that's very present in Israeli politics. 274 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 1: Sager is Biebe has refused to meet with the hostage 275 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:14,160 Speaker 1: families in quite a long time. I mean, it's just 276 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:17,199 Speaker 1: completely shut them out, and in this way, he really 277 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:21,000 Speaker 1: is dramatically at odds with the Israeli domestic public, even 278 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 1: a majority within his own you know, fairly hard right 279 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 1: party Lacud party want to see a deal to bring 280 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:29,880 Speaker 1: the hostages home. And that is, you know, the opposite 281 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:31,840 Speaker 1: of his priority, because he just wants to be able 282 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:33,320 Speaker 1: to continue and continue and continue. 283 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:35,080 Speaker 3: I just think his dance is going to continue. 284 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:39,120 Speaker 2: And unless we can literally change irreconcilable differences, then nothing 285 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 2: is going to happen. If the condition is that's well, 286 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:44,440 Speaker 2: that's the other thing. If the condition, and this is 287 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:47,440 Speaker 2: why things could change, if Benny Gance becomes the prime minister, 288 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 2: if the condition becomes release of the hostages first, quote unquote, 289 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 2: defeat of Hamas second, then we're in business. Right, Hamas 290 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:57,160 Speaker 2: may sign that deal. They'll be like, okay, fine, you 291 00:14:57,240 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 2: in the war. We're good to go. We're probably going 292 00:14:59,160 --> 00:14:59,800 Speaker 2: to stay in power. 293 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 3: That's fine. 294 00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 2: You're not existentially asking us to basically give up our arms. 295 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 2: After that though, the military organization. I was just looking 296 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:10,640 Speaker 2: back at those text messages that I referenced. He Sinoar 297 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 2: believes he is winning. He's like, yeah, it's sad, It's true. 298 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:16,120 Speaker 2: A lot of people have died, He said, I believe 299 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:18,200 Speaker 2: that the Israelis are right where we want them. This 300 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 2: is something he said like multiple days ago. There is 301 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:24,840 Speaker 2: no way that they would voluntarily just give up military 302 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 2: resistance and then give up their hostages. I'm speaking purely 303 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 2: from a cold calculation. That's why the North Vietnamese example 304 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 2: is a good one. In the end of the day, 305 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 2: they were correct about their ability to withstand. Yes, millions 306 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 2: of people died, but they knew that that sacrifice in 307 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 2: their communist worldview or whatever, was worth it, and ultimately 308 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 2: they succeeded. So who's going to be the one who 309 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 2: has more to lose is the other question. Sinoar also 310 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 2: references that with Netanyahu, he's like, even if he wins, 311 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 2: he said, even Israeli victory could be a huge defeat 312 00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 2: because he knows what that would entail and what consequence 313 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:01,560 Speaker 2: is that he could invite on the Israeli military if 314 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:03,320 Speaker 2: that were to occur. So you can hate him if 315 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 2: you want, But these people can both be ideological and 316 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 2: deeply rational, and everything that they're doing is quite rational 317 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:13,360 Speaker 2: right now from their own self injured perspective. 318 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:17,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's divorcing morality from the question it's not 319 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 1: just Hamas leaders who feel that Israel is losing and 320 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 1: Israel is failing in their objectives. I mean, you can 321 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:28,160 Speaker 1: read analysis to that effect in many mainstream Israeli really 322 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 1: press newspapers. They're saying, listen, they haven't destroyed the tunnels, 323 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:35,560 Speaker 1: they haven't destroyed Hamas. They've only gotten a relatively small 324 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 1: lesson of a majority of their fighters have been killed. 325 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:43,040 Speaker 1: There're thousands of new recruits signing up. You've created a 326 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:45,960 Speaker 1: hotbed for future terrorism because of all the death and 327 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:50,720 Speaker 1: destruction that you've sown. And listen, the reality is before 328 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 1: October seven, again, this is divorcing morality. This is not 329 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 1: sanctioning anything any of the horrors that were committed on 330 00:16:56,720 --> 00:17:01,240 Speaker 1: October seven against civilians. Before October seven, the Palestine question 331 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:04,600 Speaker 1: was basically dead. Even someone like this is something you know, 332 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:07,240 Speaker 1: Professor Norman Finkelstein talks about here. He is someone who's 333 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 1: devoted his entire adult life and career to studying this, 334 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 1: and he himself had given up because it felt like 335 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:16,399 Speaker 1: no one cared to me. There was no possibly at 336 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:20,159 Speaker 1: the Abraham according these normalization deals that were occurring, and 337 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:23,159 Speaker 1: Palestine was playing no part in it. The idea was 338 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 1: just to pretend this didn't exist. And we are now 339 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:30,959 Speaker 1: in a very different landscape and Israel is increasingly a 340 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:33,720 Speaker 1: pariah country. Are going to get to this new UN 341 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:38,000 Speaker 1: report that accuses them of extermination. They're facing genocide charges 342 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 1: at the ICJ, bib Net and Yahoo and Yoav Glant, 343 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 1: the Defense Minister, are facing icc war crime prosecution. This 344 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:48,120 Speaker 1: didn't make it into our show, but we were looking 345 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 1: at was an intel that pulled out of a huge 346 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:55,680 Speaker 1: fifteen billion dollar deal in Israel. Their economy is really suffering. 347 00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:58,199 Speaker 1: You know, the Western pross is one thing, but if 348 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:00,360 Speaker 1: you go around the world at the way that they're 349 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:02,760 Speaker 1: viewing Israel, the way they're viewing this conflict, this has 350 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:05,680 Speaker 1: been devastating to Israel. It's also been devastating by the 351 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 1: way to the US and whatever prestige we had remaining 352 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:11,400 Speaker 1: in the world as well. So when you look at 353 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:14,040 Speaker 1: all those pieces, I think you have to agree with 354 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 1: the assessment that this has not gone well for Israel. 355 00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:21,919 Speaker 1: And it's not a surprise because Bbnight, now, who doesn't 356 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 1: care first and foremost about Israel, Israeli security, certainly doesn't 357 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:26,520 Speaker 1: care about the hostages. 358 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:27,840 Speaker 4: He cares about himself. 359 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 1: He wants to stay in power, and he wants to 360 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:31,919 Speaker 1: stay on in prison too, because don't forget, he's facing 361 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 1: corruption charges. So you know, the US tried to give 362 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:42,000 Speaker 1: an alternative version of victory to the Israelis. Biden tried 363 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 1: to frame. You know what they've done already is hey, 364 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:47,640 Speaker 1: you've degraded their capacity so they can no longer conduct 365 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:51,119 Speaker 1: another operation like October seventh. Call that a victory and 366 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:54,800 Speaker 1: move on is basically what Biden was proposing to the Israelis, 367 00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:59,280 Speaker 1: and without any sort of actual muscle being applied on 368 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:02,240 Speaker 1: the US side, i'd any sort of pressure or leverage. 369 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 1: There may be some actors in the Israeli government that 370 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:08,440 Speaker 1: would accept that, but beating that Yahoo is not one 371 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 1: of them, and that is incredibly clear and has been 372 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:13,359 Speaker 1: incredibly clear, by the way, for a long time. So 373 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 1: that's where we are the best I can tell, with 374 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:17,720 Speaker 1: the cease fire deals, anything else you wanted to see 375 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:22,680 Speaker 1: there before I move on. There's a UN commission that's 376 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:26,439 Speaker 1: been looking into atrocities committed by both Hamas and Israel 377 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:29,440 Speaker 1: on October seventh and through the end of last year. 378 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:32,919 Speaker 1: So they just put out a report that is quite 379 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:37,600 Speaker 1: detailed and accuses Israel and Hamas. By the way, but Israel, 380 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:40,080 Speaker 1: you know, that's the government that we're funding, so we 381 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 1: take particular interest in of some outrageous war crimes and 382 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:48,400 Speaker 1: even crimes against humanity. Let's put the New York Times 383 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:50,359 Speaker 1: right up on the screen. We give you some of 384 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:52,880 Speaker 1: the headlines here. So the headline is UN report accuses 385 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 1: both Israel and Palestinian groups of war crimes. A commission 386 00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:59,120 Speaker 1: produced the UN's most detailed examination yet of the October 387 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 1: seventh attacks and the subsequent war in Gaza. Read you 388 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:05,320 Speaker 1: a little bit of this in that report, released on Wednesday. 389 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:09,399 Speaker 1: The three person commission does not itself carry any penalties, 390 00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:12,639 Speaker 1: but lays on a legal analysis of actions in the 391 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:15,560 Speaker 1: Gaza conflict that is likely to be weighed by the 392 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 1: International Court of Justice in an other international criminal proceedings. 393 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:23,119 Speaker 1: Israel to not cooperate with the investigation surprise surprize, and 394 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:27,040 Speaker 1: protested the panel's assessment of its behavior. Some of the 395 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:29,520 Speaker 1: details here in terms of the Israeli side, they say, 396 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:32,160 Speaker 1: during their months long campaign in Gaza to aust Hamas, 397 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 1: they have committed war crimes like the use of starvation 398 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:36,040 Speaker 1: as a weapon. 399 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:37,800 Speaker 4: Of war through a total siege of Gaza. 400 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 1: The report also said Israel's use of heavy weapons in 401 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:44,159 Speaker 1: densely populated areas amounted to a direct attack on the 402 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:47,879 Speaker 1: civilian population and had the essential elements of a crime 403 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:53,199 Speaker 1: against humanity, disregarding the necessity of distinguishing between combatants and civilians, 404 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:58,439 Speaker 1: causing disproportionate high number of civilian casualties, particularly among women 405 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:01,679 Speaker 1: and children. The conflict has killed or named tens of 406 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 1: thousands of Palestinian children, a scale and a rate of 407 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 1: casualties that were unparalleled across conflicts in recent decades. Other 408 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:16,040 Speaker 1: crimes against humanity committed by Israel include extermination, murder, gender persecution, 409 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:19,560 Speaker 1: in targeting Palestinian men and boys for a simple transfer 410 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:23,440 Speaker 1: of the population, torture, and in human and cruel treatment. 411 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:26,320 Speaker 1: I'm going to get into some of the specific details here, 412 00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:29,439 Speaker 1: which were the subject in particular a lot of commentary 413 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 1: and discussion online, but just to zoom out for a 414 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:35,159 Speaker 1: second of the import of this, because you guys might be, oh, 415 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:38,679 Speaker 1: you another UN report, who really cares? Which in one sense, okay, 416 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:41,639 Speaker 1: fair enough. In another way that you have yet another 417 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:46,280 Speaker 1: report accusing Israel of such grain crimes against humanity, and 418 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:50,840 Speaker 1: that this is likely to weigh heavily in a future 419 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:55,679 Speaker 1: International Court of Justice ruling with regards to genocide, and 420 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 1: also potentially the ICC may take a look at this 421 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 1: also in terms of crimes prosecution against bb Net, Yahoo, 422 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:05,280 Speaker 1: Yoev Goalan and potentially others in the future. By the way, 423 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:08,960 Speaker 1: that's what gives this some weight and makes it really significant. 424 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:11,080 Speaker 1: It also carried a lot of out mainstream press was 425 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 1: forced to cover this and talk in detail about this, 426 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:18,120 Speaker 1: and it's yet another instance of Israel's increasing pariah status internationally. 427 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:18,720 Speaker 3: Yeah. 428 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:20,680 Speaker 2: Well, and there's also a lot of other stuff, Crystal, 429 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:23,400 Speaker 2: if we want to get into about the Hannibal directive, 430 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 2: which they found, which is very interesting. 431 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:29,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, so could we put the Hannibal directive piece of 432 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 1: this up on the screen? So the Hannibal directive the 433 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:34,800 Speaker 1: basic idea, and this has been documented in the past 434 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:39,560 Speaker 1: that the Israeli military will kill their own in the 435 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:44,240 Speaker 1: process of attempting to get the bad guys orwort hostage 436 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 1: taking in particular, and there's already been credible reporting in 437 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:50,360 Speaker 1: places like The New York Times that there had been 438 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 1: some instances of the Hannibal directive being operative during the 439 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:59,159 Speaker 1: response to October seventh. Well, noteworthy in this report you 440 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 1: have this paragraph that says, quote, the Commission also verified 441 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:06,919 Speaker 1: information indicating that in at least two other cases, the 442 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:10,520 Speaker 1: Israelis had likely applied the Hannibal directive, resulting in the 443 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:14,080 Speaker 1: killing of up to fourteen Israeli civilians. One woman was 444 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:17,600 Speaker 1: killed by ISF helicopter fire while being abducted from near 445 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:20,680 Speaker 1: Oz to Gaza by militants. In another case, the Commission 446 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:23,879 Speaker 1: found that Israeli tank fire killed some or all of 447 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:26,879 Speaker 1: the thirteen civilian hostages held in a house that's in 448 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:29,879 Speaker 1: that Kibbutz inn Beery. That was the instance that I 449 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 1: think has been most documented and basically admitted to by 450 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:37,640 Speaker 1: the Israelis who were involved in that operation and witnesses 451 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:41,200 Speaker 1: survivors had also testified to that as well. But still 452 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:43,960 Speaker 1: noteworthy to see this confirmed in this report. 453 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:46,639 Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely, I mean this is not only has it 454 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:48,600 Speaker 2: been I mean this has been something that's been danced 455 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:52,439 Speaker 2: around previously, but it's important also just underscore remember there 456 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:55,719 Speaker 2: were some revisions about the death toll on October seventh, 457 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:58,840 Speaker 2: and it does still remain questions about specifically the Nova 458 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:02,280 Speaker 2: Music Festival up to have a confirmation or at least 459 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:05,359 Speaker 2: supposed confirmation here by the United Nations not nothing. 460 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 1: Yes, And they looked into the Nova Music Festival piece 461 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:11,600 Speaker 1: as well, and they weren't able to come to a 462 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:15,720 Speaker 1: conclusion there over whether the Hannibal directive was also operative 463 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:18,359 Speaker 1: at the Nova Music Festival, so they left that question 464 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:21,880 Speaker 1: open at this time. Another area that they dealt with 465 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:28,359 Speaker 1: was an incredibly politically sensitive issue, which is rape and 466 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:32,480 Speaker 1: gender based violence committed by Hamas on October seventh. And 467 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:33,960 Speaker 1: I wanted to put this is going to be a 468 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:35,800 Speaker 1: little bit lengthy, guys, but I just want to make 469 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 1: sure you have all of the information that was in 470 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:40,639 Speaker 1: the report so that you can know fully what this 471 00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 1: commission found. Let's go and put the first piece up 472 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:46,680 Speaker 1: on the screen. The TLDR here is that the commission 473 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:50,840 Speaker 1: found quote indications that members of the military wing of 474 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:55,240 Speaker 1: HAMAS and other Palestinian armed groups committed gender based violence 475 00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:58,800 Speaker 1: in several locations on October seventh. These they say, were 476 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:02,359 Speaker 1: not isolated in but perpetrated in similar ways in several 477 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:07,360 Speaker 1: locations by multiple Palaestinating perpetrators. The acts that were documented reflected, 478 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:10,360 Speaker 1: they say, clear abuse of power by male perpetrators. Disregard 479 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:14,320 Speaker 1: for special considerations and protection of women's integrity. So that's 480 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:15,359 Speaker 1: gender based violence. 481 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,160 Speaker 4: Let's go to the next paragraph in the report. 482 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:22,760 Speaker 1: They indicate that Hamas rejected those accusations. However, they get 483 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:25,040 Speaker 1: into some of the specifics of the evidence that they 484 00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 1: found of sexual violence and gender based violence perpetrated against 485 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 1: women in and around the Nova Festival site, as well 486 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:35,960 Speaker 1: as at a military out post and several. 487 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:36,600 Speaker 4: Of the kibbutz. 488 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:40,480 Speaker 1: They say they collected and preserved digital evidence, including images 489 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:44,200 Speaker 1: of victims' bodies displaying indications of sexual violence of pattern 490 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:49,040 Speaker 1: corroborated by independent testimonies from witnesses. Reliable witness accounts obtained 491 00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:52,359 Speaker 1: describe bodies that have been undressed in some instances with 492 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 1: exposed genitals. They receive reports and verified digital evidence concerned 493 00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,720 Speaker 1: the restraining of women, including hands and sometimes feet of 494 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:02,359 Speaker 1: women being bound, often behind the victims backs, prior to 495 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:05,280 Speaker 1: their abduction or killing. Additionally, the commission made assessments based 496 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:08,160 Speaker 1: on the position of the body, for example, images displaying 497 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:10,359 Speaker 1: leg spread or bent over, and signs of struggle or 498 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:13,640 Speaker 1: violence on the body such as stab wounds, burns, lacerations, 499 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:17,080 Speaker 1: and abrasions. So let's go on to the next piece. 500 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:22,320 Speaker 1: They say, however, that they looked at testimonies obtained by 501 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:27,080 Speaker 1: journalists and Israeli police concerning rape, specifically so as distinct 502 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:30,879 Speaker 1: from general gender based violence or general sexual violence, but 503 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:35,119 Speaker 1: they were not able to independently verify those rape allegations 504 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:38,640 Speaker 1: due to lack of access to victims, witnesses and crime 505 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:42,480 Speaker 1: seats and obstruction of investigation by Israeli authorities. Commission was 506 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 1: unable to review the unedited version of such testimonies for 507 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 1: the same reasons. The Commission was also unable to verify 508 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:52,960 Speaker 1: reports of sexualized torture and genital mutilation. Additionally, the Commission 509 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:57,800 Speaker 1: found some specific allegations to be false, inaccurate, or contradictory 510 00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:01,560 Speaker 1: with other evidence or statements and discounted these from its assessment. 511 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:04,120 Speaker 1: So this is consistent with the Times of London piece 512 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:06,440 Speaker 1: that I did a monologue on earlier this week, which 513 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:11,000 Speaker 1: is effectively in terms of rape and specifically there's another 514 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 1: piece that speaks to this rape being used systematically as 515 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:19,960 Speaker 1: a weapon of war, with top down instructions from military 516 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:22,720 Speaker 1: commanders to use rape as a weapon of war. There 517 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:25,440 Speaker 1: is no evidence at this point, no testimony, no forensic 518 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:27,119 Speaker 1: evidence to back up those claims. 519 00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:27,840 Speaker 4: We have one more. 520 00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:30,679 Speaker 1: Piece that speaks to this specifically, they say that the 521 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:34,760 Speaker 1: Commission identified patterns indicative of sexual violence in several locations. 522 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:38,000 Speaker 1: The attack on October seventh, they say enabled perpetrators to 523 00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 1: commit sexual and gender based violence, and this violence was 524 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:44,200 Speaker 1: not isolated. But they say they did not find credible 525 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:47,639 Speaker 1: evidence that militants received orders to commit sexual violence, and 526 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:50,439 Speaker 1: so it was unable to make conclusions on this issue. However, 527 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:54,359 Speaker 1: they inflammatory language disbelief observed with both parties resilencing and 528 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:58,760 Speaker 1: discrediting survivors, further exacerbating trauma and stigmatization. So I know 529 00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 1: this was a lot to go through, true, but I 530 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 1: just wanted to give all the details of what the 531 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:08,200 Speaker 1: Commission report found, what they documented, what they claimed, and 532 00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 1: you know, it gives a little bit of a fuller 533 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 1: picture of what we know at this point of what 534 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:17,200 Speaker 1: happened October seventh, which is they found indications of gender 535 00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:20,280 Speaker 1: based violence, of sexual violence. They did not they were 536 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:25,520 Speaker 1: able to falsify some of the journalist tellings, some of 537 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:26,920 Speaker 1: the news accounts. 538 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 4: Of specific rapes. 539 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:30,920 Speaker 1: They were not able to find evidence of specific rapes. 540 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:34,879 Speaker 1: Israeli government continues not to cooperate, and they found no 541 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:38,320 Speaker 1: indications that this was used systematically as a weapon of 542 00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:41,120 Speaker 1: war with top down instructions, which again is consistent with 543 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:41,840 Speaker 1: prior reporting. 544 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:44,600 Speaker 2: Take I boy, you will call it tedious if you want. 545 00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:47,760 Speaker 2: Go ask any normy Israel supporter out there, and they're 546 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:49,800 Speaker 2: going to bring up rape in the babies every single time. 547 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:51,200 Speaker 3: So if you think this stuff doesn't. 548 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:53,760 Speaker 2: Matter, it's kind of like going back in two thousand 549 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:55,440 Speaker 2: and five and be like, does it really matter that 550 00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:58,360 Speaker 2: we didn't find WMD in Iraq? And it's like, no, Yeah, 551 00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:02,360 Speaker 2: it actually really does matter because the indittional justifications for 552 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:06,240 Speaker 2: the eventual fallout they matter a lot. And that one 553 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:09,080 Speaker 2: of the very effective tactics that the Bush administration war 554 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 2: supporters and all those people did is they moved past 555 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:16,680 Speaker 2: all of their lies and started architecting new ones instead 556 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:19,880 Speaker 2: of actually reconciling what really happened. We didn't get a 557 00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:23,360 Speaker 2: full accounting until what twenty ten basically of like what 558 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 2: really went down in those initial years, and by that 559 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:28,640 Speaker 2: time the damage was done. Yeah, I say, don't ever forget. 560 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:30,480 Speaker 2: It's kind of like nine to eleven. Do the details 561 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:33,160 Speaker 2: of nine to eleven still matter? In some sense? No. 562 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:35,840 Speaker 2: In others, we just learned two weeks ago that the 563 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 2: Saudi government had even more to do with you know, 564 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:41,280 Speaker 2: funding me hijackers than we knew at the time, and 565 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:43,560 Speaker 2: it was totally covered up. I would say it does matter. 566 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:46,600 Speaker 2: It matters both the historical record and for future US policy. 567 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:48,880 Speaker 1: Well, and it also matters because Israeli government really used 568 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:52,240 Speaker 1: this as a center of their push to justify barbarism, 569 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:54,040 Speaker 1: not just them, oh. 570 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:55,000 Speaker 4: Absolute, I mean Joe Biden. 571 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:57,120 Speaker 1: I I showed the clip of him lying about always 572 00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:01,000 Speaker 1: saw the photographs. No, you didn't, because those photographs didn't exist. 573 00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:05,400 Speaker 1: So that's why your word tedious is correct. I also 574 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:07,640 Speaker 1: find it somewhat tedious, but I want to make sure 575 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:10,560 Speaker 1: that we're really clear about what we know actually happen 576 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,080 Speaker 1: on that day, what evidence supports, what it doesn't support. 577 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:15,040 Speaker 1: There was one last piece that I wanted to put 578 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:18,040 Speaker 1: up here because this looked both at you know, Israeli 579 00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:23,160 Speaker 1: actions and Palestinian actions, crimes committed against Israelis and against Palestinians. 580 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:26,520 Speaker 1: There was quite a significant section about gender based and 581 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:28,880 Speaker 1: sexual violence committed against Palestinians. 582 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:30,560 Speaker 4: We can put this up on the screen. This was 583 00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:31,640 Speaker 4: a portion of it. 584 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:34,560 Speaker 1: They say that the frequency, prevalence, and severity of sexual 585 00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:38,959 Speaker 1: and gender based crimes perpetrated against Palestinians since October seventh 586 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:43,680 Speaker 1: across the OPT indicate that specific forms of this type 587 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:48,760 Speaker 1: of violence are part of Israeli operating procedures. Palestinian men 588 00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:53,280 Speaker 1: and boys experienced specific persecutory acts intended to punish them 589 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:56,320 Speaker 1: in retaliation for the crimes committed on October seven. The 590 00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:59,480 Speaker 1: way in which these acts were committed, including their filming 591 00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:02,400 Speaker 1: and photo graphic and conjunction with similar cases documented in 592 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:06,200 Speaker 1: several locations, leads the Commission to conclude that forced public 593 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:09,560 Speaker 1: stripping and nudity and other related types of abuse were 594 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:15,040 Speaker 1: either ordered, ordered or co condoned by Israeli authorities. So 595 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:18,920 Speaker 1: they're suggesting that there may have been operating orders to 596 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:24,360 Speaker 1: humiliate Palaestini men and boys in particular and perpetrate sexual 597 00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:27,480 Speaker 1: violence gender based violence against Palestinie men and boys in 598 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:30,560 Speaker 1: a systematic way post October seventh, to quote unquote get 599 00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:33,200 Speaker 1: revenge for the crimes that were committed on that day. 600 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,080 Speaker 1: And there's quite a bit of detail in the report 601 00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:37,560 Speaker 1: about some of the acts that have been reported, which 602 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:41,280 Speaker 1: again consistent with prior reporting we had report from previous 603 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:44,520 Speaker 1: UN reports. We also just had New York Times documenting 604 00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:47,400 Speaker 1: torture and abuse against Palestinian prisoners who have been taken 605 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:52,680 Speaker 1: by the Israelis, including multiple reports of hot electric rod 606 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:56,320 Speaker 1: being used to sodomize multiple Palestinian men. 607 00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:59,600 Speaker 4: So you know this report provides additional detail theres. 608 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:04,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, said Crystal, what are you taking to look 609 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:04,920 Speaker 3: at well? 610 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:08,360 Speaker 1: Earlier this week, Israel injured and killed roughly one thousand 611 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:11,440 Speaker 1: palest Indians in an effort to rescue four Israeli hostages 612 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:14,120 Speaker 1: who had been taken by Hamas on October seventh. In 613 00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:16,960 Speaker 1: spite of the horrific death toll two hundred seventy four 614 00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:21,440 Speaker 1: souls approximately, this massacre was almost uniformly celebrated by American 615 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:24,680 Speaker 1: political elites and mainstream news figures, who heralded the brave 616 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:28,680 Speaker 1: heroes conducting this daring mission. But a few voices did 617 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:31,800 Speaker 1: recoil at the mass civilian death and clear war crimes, 618 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:34,719 Speaker 1: which displayed a monstrous disregard for human life and the 619 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,120 Speaker 1: crowd over at Morning Joe, while they just couldn't let 620 00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:40,920 Speaker 1: that slide. But the fact that there wasn't absolute universal 621 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:44,600 Speaker 1: celebration of this latest Israeli slaughter really got to contributor 622 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:47,520 Speaker 1: Donny Deutsche in particular, who popped off in a little 623 00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:50,280 Speaker 1: monologue designed to explain why, actually, if you think about it, 624 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,480 Speaker 1: killing and injuring hundreds of civilians, including children and grandma's 625 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:54,479 Speaker 1: was perfectly fine. 626 00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:55,720 Speaker 4: Good even take a listen. 627 00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:59,520 Speaker 12: We have to start to really talk honestly about the 628 00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:04,360 Speaker 12: definition of civilian casualties. Four hostages rescued and two hundred 629 00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:07,480 Speaker 12: and seventy Palestinian civilians killed. We need to start to 630 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:09,680 Speaker 12: look at that word civilians. When the hostages are being 631 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:13,800 Speaker 12: held by a Palestinian journalist, a civilian, and a Palestinian 632 00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:18,080 Speaker 12: doctor a civilian. These are not civilians. These are Hamas ambassadors. 633 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:20,480 Speaker 12: And yes there are innocent civilians. But I think back 634 00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:24,040 Speaker 12: to also the hundreds and thousands of rabid Gazans as 635 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:30,120 Speaker 12: they dragged a corpse through Gaza, cheering, hysterical, with glee 636 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:34,320 Speaker 12: and joy, and it's just once again, the media coverage 637 00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:37,280 Speaker 12: is And these were four hostages that were taken on 638 00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:41,520 Speaker 12: a day that twelve hundred Israelis were slaughtered, main decapitated, 639 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:43,320 Speaker 12: killed in the most gruesome way. 640 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:45,200 Speaker 3: And I don't know. 641 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:48,600 Speaker 12: If Americans had four hostages that were taken and we 642 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:51,400 Speaker 12: had a rescue mission, and yes, there were two hundred 643 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:55,680 Speaker 12: and seventy casualties, and many of those Palestine casualties are deep, deep, 644 00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:59,600 Speaker 12: deep sympathizers of Hamas. Would the coverage be the same 645 00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:02,640 Speaker 12: way anybody be criticizing the rescue mission or would it. 646 00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:03,960 Speaker 4: Be truly one of heroism? 647 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:06,600 Speaker 12: But I do think we have to start to really 648 00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:11,959 Speaker 12: be talk honestly, honestly about the definition of civilian casualties. 649 00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:14,040 Speaker 1: Now, Donnie was so proud of this little moment. He 650 00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:17,520 Speaker 1: posted on Twitter proclaiming, let's have an honest conversation about 651 00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:20,840 Speaker 1: quote civilian casualties. So all right, Donnie, let's go ahead 652 00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:23,359 Speaker 1: and do that. So off the bat, let's talk about 653 00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:26,960 Speaker 1: this hypothetical American hostage mission that successfully rescued four of 654 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:29,560 Speaker 1: our citizens. You claim there would be no criticism of 655 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:33,160 Speaker 1: such a toll, and maybe, But I don't agree. Because 656 00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:36,000 Speaker 1: although political and media elites, the Morning Joe types turned 657 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:37,680 Speaker 1: the other cheek when it came to war crimes of 658 00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:41,480 Speaker 1: the War on Terror era, many Americans did not. There 659 00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:44,080 Speaker 1: was a robust opposition to the civilian death toll, from 660 00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:47,080 Speaker 1: drones strikes to CIA black sites, and torture and Gitmo 661 00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:47,879 Speaker 1: and Abu grab. 662 00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:49,080 Speaker 4: But let's pause it. 663 00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:51,880 Speaker 1: You're correct that the American public would accept the death 664 00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:54,279 Speaker 1: of two hundred and seventy four people in exchange for 665 00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:58,399 Speaker 1: four hostages. That still doesn't make it right. Furthermore, there 666 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:01,440 Speaker 1: are American hostages being held Gaza. In fact, Hamas claims 667 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:02,719 Speaker 1: that one of them was killed as part of this 668 00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:06,000 Speaker 1: glorious rescue mission. Obviously, we shouldn't take AMAS claims without 669 00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:08,520 Speaker 1: evidence at face value, any more than we should take 670 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:11,440 Speaker 1: IDF claims at face value. We can say, however, with 671 00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:16,399 Speaker 1: absolute certainty, that every hostage, American and otherwise has been 672 00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:20,600 Speaker 1: in grave peril due to Israeli bombing campaigns, including this one. 673 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:22,719 Speaker 1: You don't have to take my word for it. One 674 00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:26,880 Speaker 1: of the just rescued hostages told Harets quote, our greatest 675 00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:30,439 Speaker 1: fear was the IDF's plans and the concern that they 676 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:34,160 Speaker 1: would bomb the building we were in. Now the US 677 00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:36,920 Speaker 1: is not attempted a rescue mission for our five hostages. Instead, 678 00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:39,440 Speaker 1: we're actually considering negotiating with Hamas to bring them home, 679 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:42,040 Speaker 1: which makes all the sense in the world. Since the 680 00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:44,960 Speaker 1: overwhelming majority of hostages who had been freed came home. 681 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:48,399 Speaker 1: In the context of seatsfire negotiations, many more have been 682 00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,719 Speaker 1: killed by bombing than saved. Finally, we might take a 683 00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:54,080 Speaker 1: look at some past hostage rescue missions for a little 684 00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:56,560 Speaker 1: comparison of what level of quote unquote collateral damage has 685 00:35:56,600 --> 00:36:00,120 Speaker 1: been typical and accepted by the supposedly civilized world. And 686 00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:03,560 Speaker 1: freedmen healthily compiled a list of some recent hostage rescue missions. 687 00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:06,040 Speaker 1: And would you look at that Mayre Scalabama. That was 688 00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:09,799 Speaker 1: the US Navy zero civilians killed, Somalia, US Navy zero 689 00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:12,840 Speaker 1: civilians killed, Nigeria, US Navy zero civilians killed. 690 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:15,799 Speaker 4: Then we get to the Israeli operations and the number. 691 00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:20,160 Speaker 1: Of civilians killed skyrockets sixty six in Operation Golden Hand. 692 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:22,359 Speaker 1: And of course this latest operation we now know took 693 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:25,880 Speaker 1: more than two hundred civilians. So no, while we are 694 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:28,520 Speaker 1: a no beacon of virtue and participated directly in this 695 00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:31,839 Speaker 1: specific monstrosity, we have not operated this way, and our 696 00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:35,759 Speaker 1: citizens have not all just accepted brazen war crimes. But 697 00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:38,279 Speaker 1: let's dig a level deeper here, shall we, Because while 698 00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:40,200 Speaker 1: Donnie Moo's the words that, of course there are some 699 00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:44,600 Speaker 1: innocent civilians, his commentary strongly suggests that actually there really aren't, 700 00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:48,040 Speaker 1: even though the population is half literal children in Gaza. 701 00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:50,800 Speaker 1: He asks us to think of the hundreds or thousands 702 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:55,800 Speaker 1: of quote rabid Gazins, cheering and hysterical with glee and joy, 703 00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:58,320 Speaker 1: who he says, celebrated a dead Israeli in the streets. 704 00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:02,680 Speaker 1: These actions, he suggest, mean that Palestinians aren't really innocent 705 00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:05,239 Speaker 1: civilians in the way that you or I are well 706 00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:05,759 Speaker 1: Star two. 707 00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:07,839 Speaker 4: Can play at that game. What have we here? 708 00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:13,319 Speaker 1: Just Israeli Finance Minister Bezalielsmotrich suggesting that Palestinian corpses be 709 00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:16,319 Speaker 1: paraded through the streets on carts, as they did in 710 00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:20,120 Speaker 1: Biblical times sounds kind of akin to the actions Donnie 711 00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:24,400 Speaker 1: klaim stripes Palestinians of their civilian status. Now Smotrich is 712 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:28,120 Speaker 1: a politician representing a large constituency. Should all those who 713 00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:31,799 Speaker 1: celebrate these ideas be deemed combatants? Maybe just those who 714 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:35,319 Speaker 1: vote directly for Smotrich. Maybe the entire society that could 715 00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:38,600 Speaker 1: produce such a monstrous death cult? What do you think, Donnie? 716 00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:41,800 Speaker 1: And that brings me to my real point here. Donnie 717 00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:43,640 Speaker 1: thinks he's such a special big boy for coming up 718 00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:46,520 Speaker 1: with this brilliant logic, but it's not new or special. 719 00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:51,120 Speaker 1: It is a logic of exterminationists and terrorists throughout history, 720 00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:54,759 Speaker 1: boring and stale, as it is monstrous and disgusting. There 721 00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:58,160 Speaker 1: are no innocent, no uninvolved civilians, because the entire society 722 00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:00,680 Speaker 1: is dangerous, complicit, from the bay in the cradle to 723 00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:03,440 Speaker 1: the Grandpa with this cane. If they are our enemies, 724 00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:08,040 Speaker 1: they are by definition not innocent, not uninvolved, not civilians. 725 00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:10,960 Speaker 1: That's the thinking, and it's the logic. For example of 726 00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:14,240 Speaker 1: Osama bin Laden, who blamed all Americans for the crimes 727 00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:17,200 Speaker 1: of American political leaders. We voted for them, after all, 728 00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:20,120 Speaker 1: didn't we our tax dollars sustain their torture camps, buy 729 00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:23,200 Speaker 1: the bombs, build the drones. Donnie doined to suggest all 730 00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:25,799 Speaker 1: Palestinians are complicit because, in his words. 731 00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:27,600 Speaker 4: They are deep, deep deep. 732 00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:31,479 Speaker 1: Sympathizers of Hamas well. Bin Laden considered us deep deep 733 00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:34,640 Speaker 1: deep sympathizers of Bush and Cheney. With I have to 734 00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:39,440 Speaker 1: say more legitimacy because Hamas is authoritarian. Majority Palestinians were 735 00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:42,120 Speaker 1: not even alive the last time elections were held. We 736 00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:45,440 Speaker 1: at least theoretically have a democracy here. In fact, al 737 00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:47,239 Speaker 1: Qaeda and bin Laden had quite a lot to say 738 00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:50,600 Speaker 1: about their definitions of civilians that Donnie would seemingly readily 739 00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:53,840 Speaker 1: agree with if it was applied to Palestinians and al Qaeda. 740 00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:57,239 Speaker 1: Theologian wrote, for example, that anyone who was useful to 741 00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:02,000 Speaker 1: the unbelievers was fair game. Quote our conclusion. But God 742 00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:04,640 Speaker 1: knows better than anyone is as follows, those who can 743 00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:07,880 Speaker 1: be useful to the unbelievers or to others must be killed, 744 00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:11,520 Speaker 1: whether they are old people, priests, or invalids. You can 745 00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:14,320 Speaker 1: hear echoes of this sentiment when Deutsch references the doctor 746 00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:16,960 Speaker 1: a journalist who were supposedly holding hostages, a claim made 747 00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:19,439 Speaker 1: by the IDF, by the way, and lacking evidence. Bin 748 00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:23,640 Speaker 1: Lan himself directly echoes one of Donnie's arguments with evocative language. 749 00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:26,279 Speaker 1: Donnie Deutsch brings up the horrors of October seventh to say, 750 00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:29,120 Speaker 1: in essence, they did it to us first. Well, here's 751 00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:30,000 Speaker 1: Osama bin Laden. 752 00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:30,520 Speaker 3: Quote. 753 00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:33,239 Speaker 1: Is very strange for Americans and other educated people to 754 00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:34,560 Speaker 1: talk about the killing. 755 00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:35,240 Speaker 4: Of innocent civilians. 756 00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:37,680 Speaker 1: I mean, who said that our children and civilians are 757 00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:40,680 Speaker 1: not innocence and that the shedding of their blood is permissible. 758 00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:43,560 Speaker 1: Whenever we killed their civilians. The whole world yells at 759 00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:45,680 Speaker 1: us from east to west, and America starts putting pressure 760 00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:48,360 Speaker 1: on its allies and puppets who said that our blood 761 00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:51,800 Speaker 1: isn't blood and that their blood is blood. In other words, 762 00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:55,360 Speaker 1: just like Donnie's logic, Hey, they did it first, pseudo 763 00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:59,200 Speaker 1: intellectual sophistry when coming from Osama bin Laden or Donnie 764 00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:03,640 Speaker 1: Deutsch alike logic of a sociopathic kindergartener, which is what 765 00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:06,600 Speaker 1: this all boils down to. Really tribal in, group out, 766 00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:09,359 Speaker 1: group evil cloaked in a whole bunch of bullshit, which 767 00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:11,360 Speaker 1: is why you'll be unsurprised to learn it is also 768 00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:13,400 Speaker 1: the language of some of the other great terrorists of 769 00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:16,520 Speaker 1: our time, the current Israeli regime, which tweeted this out 770 00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:20,000 Speaker 1: from their official government account, quote, we need to talk 771 00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:22,960 Speaker 1: about the elephant in the room. Many gas and civilians 772 00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:26,240 Speaker 1: participating in killing, raping, and kidnapping Israeli's on October seventh. 773 00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:29,200 Speaker 1: It is also reported that gaz And civilians were paid 774 00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:32,520 Speaker 1: by Hamas to hold hostages captive in their homes. Hamas 775 00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:35,759 Speaker 1: is intentionally involving the civilian population of Gaza in its 776 00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:38,240 Speaker 1: war crimes. You can see they're on the picture, they say, quote, 777 00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:40,839 Speaker 1: there are no innocent civilians there. They just come right 778 00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:43,240 Speaker 1: on and say it. But of course this is nothing 779 00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:46,960 Speaker 1: new the words of Israeli President Hertzog earlier in this conflict. 780 00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:49,640 Speaker 1: He said, quote, it is an entire nation out there 781 00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:52,560 Speaker 1: that is responsible. It's not true, this rhetoric about civilians 782 00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:56,319 Speaker 1: not being aware, not involved, It's absolutely not true. They 783 00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:58,719 Speaker 1: could have risen up, they could have fought against that 784 00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:00,040 Speaker 1: evil regime which took. 785 00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:01,600 Speaker 4: Over or Gaza in a coup deta. 786 00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:04,239 Speaker 1: Those words, by the way, were cited as evidence of 787 00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:09,360 Speaker 1: genocide in South Africa's ICJ case against Israel. So congrats 788 00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:13,200 Speaker 1: Donnie for proudly broadcasting yourself discovering the logic of war 789 00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:16,000 Speaker 1: criminals and terrorists. Tune into the Next Morning Joe, where 790 00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:19,600 Speaker 1: they discuss how sodomizing Palestinian hostages with metal rods is 791 00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:22,919 Speaker 1: actually really morally complicated if you think about it hard enough, 792 00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:24,600 Speaker 1: just astonishing. 793 00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:26,359 Speaker 2: I mean the key and if you want to hear 794 00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:29,880 Speaker 2: my reaction to Crystal's monologue, become a premium subscriber today 795 00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:40,560 Speaker 2: at Breakingpoints dot com.