WEBVTT - Terri Cole on Building Boundaries for Better Relationships 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.400 Holy Human with Leanne Rhymes is a production of I 0:00:02.520 --> 0:00:13.600 Heart Radio. Welcome my beautiful friends. Today's episode is one 0:00:13.640 --> 0:00:17.480 of my absolute favorites because it is overflowing with great 0:00:17.520 --> 0:00:21.759 information about the importance of building and maintaining healthy boundaries, 0:00:22.440 --> 0:00:24.680 which I am sure is a topic that we could 0:00:24.720 --> 0:00:28.000 all use a good dose of wisdom on and it's 0:00:28.040 --> 0:00:31.280 coming from the wise and wonderful Terry Cole, the best 0:00:31.280 --> 0:00:35.280 selling author of Boundary Boss and many others, and she's 0:00:35.320 --> 0:00:57.760 my guest on today's Holy Human. Yet, actually, how are 0:00:57.800 --> 0:01:01.480 my friend Terry Cole? Welcome? Welcome to the Whole Human podcast. 0:01:01.520 --> 0:01:04.800 Thank you so so much for joining us. I'm so 0:01:04.880 --> 0:01:07.560 pumped to be here. I'm so excited to have you here. 0:01:07.760 --> 0:01:11.399 I have to say your book had me in all 0:01:11.480 --> 0:01:14.840 the fields, your Boundary Boss book, when I knew that 0:01:14.880 --> 0:01:16.399 you were coming on and I was like, Okay, I 0:01:16.400 --> 0:01:18.280 have to dig into this book. I have to say 0:01:18.319 --> 0:01:21.920 that it was it was a bit intimidating because I 0:01:21.959 --> 0:01:25.840 feel like my boundaries have pretty much been non existent 0:01:26.360 --> 0:01:28.720 for my whole life. Do you find that this is 0:01:28.760 --> 0:01:30.880 a common feeling for people? Do you find that boundaries 0:01:30.880 --> 0:01:36.120 are intimidating? Yeah? Completely, And if you're raised as a woman. 0:01:36.880 --> 0:01:41.040 I mean, really think about it. Your situation is five 0:01:41.080 --> 0:01:45.440 times more complicated because you became highly visible at a 0:01:45.440 --> 0:01:47.560 young age. So let's just do this in front of 0:01:47.600 --> 0:01:51.640 the whole world, fantastic, where normally we're just having no 0:01:51.720 --> 0:01:56.120 boundaries whatsoever within our families or communities, because most of 0:01:56.240 --> 0:01:59.480 us were raised and praised. If you were raised as 0:01:59.480 --> 0:02:02.920 a woman for being a self abandoning, codependent, like we 0:02:03.000 --> 0:02:07.440 got praise for the more self sacrificing, the more giving, 0:02:07.880 --> 0:02:12.600 be nice, and this was like the highest virtue humanly possible. 0:02:12.919 --> 0:02:15.040 For at least where I grew up, it was all 0:02:15.080 --> 0:02:18.400 about being nice. So I just learned to say yes 0:02:18.440 --> 0:02:20.680 when I really wanted to say no because I thought 0:02:20.680 --> 0:02:25.240 being nice was more important than being honest. Wow, that's 0:02:25.280 --> 0:02:28.600 it right there. I mean, we've put so much more 0:02:29.200 --> 0:02:32.480 weight on being the nice especially, like you said, the 0:02:32.600 --> 0:02:36.600 nice girl, the nice woman, instead of being truthful. And 0:02:37.320 --> 0:02:40.359 when you say truth, what comes up for me as 0:02:40.400 --> 0:02:43.519 the juxtaposition of being nice as being mean. Truth is mean. 0:02:43.560 --> 0:02:46.200 That's kind of what I've equated. There's no way of 0:02:46.320 --> 0:02:51.400 telling your truth without the anger and the bitterness and 0:02:51.400 --> 0:02:54.720 the resentment and things that come behind that, And this 0:02:54.800 --> 0:02:57.280 is a whole new lesson for me that I'm stepping 0:02:57.280 --> 0:03:00.080 into in my own life of telling my truth in 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:04.400 a clear way without having to have the push of 0:03:04.480 --> 0:03:08.919 all of these heavy emotions behind it, which is so hard, right, 0:03:08.960 --> 0:03:11.920 but think about it this way. Part of why we 0:03:12.000 --> 0:03:17.919 equate truth with meanness is a you wait too long 0:03:18.520 --> 0:03:21.600 when you learn that you should suppress how you feel 0:03:21.680 --> 0:03:23.680 if someone else won't like it. So this is like 0:03:23.800 --> 0:03:28.480 people pleasing syndrome validation outside of ourselves. Then we wait 0:03:28.560 --> 0:03:32.160 a super long time, so by the time you can't 0:03:32.160 --> 0:03:36.280 even contain that truth anymore, you will use a sledge hammer, 0:03:37.200 --> 0:03:40.120 even when like a pencil eraser would have done the trick. 0:03:40.280 --> 0:03:43.800 Because we're so piste. We waited too long, and now 0:03:43.800 --> 0:03:47.480 we're a volcano. Because the truth about frustration and not 0:03:47.560 --> 0:03:50.400 being seen and not being heard and not being known 0:03:51.200 --> 0:03:55.680 is that there's a cumulative effect. So it starts in 0:03:55.840 --> 0:03:58.800 childhood and then it just goes from relationship to relationship 0:03:58.840 --> 0:04:02.160 where you're like I, I'm checking boxes, making sure everyone 0:04:02.240 --> 0:04:05.200 else has what they need. There's no conflict, I'm not 0:04:05.400 --> 0:04:07.960 rocking the boat. You need to get to a point 0:04:07.960 --> 0:04:10.200 where you're like and I can no longer do that, 0:04:10.320 --> 0:04:12.760 you know, and that starts in childhood. I mean that 0:04:12.840 --> 0:04:15.240 starts with our parents and the way that we were parented. 0:04:15.280 --> 0:04:17.279 I know, I've been doing a lot of digging for myself, 0:04:17.480 --> 0:04:23.040 and I know that I was basically confused manipulation with love. 0:04:24.040 --> 0:04:26.599 I think a lot of us have God blessed my parents, 0:04:26.600 --> 0:04:29.200 but that was the way her mom parented her, and 0:04:29.240 --> 0:04:32.680 that's the way that I got parented. And so even 0:04:32.760 --> 0:04:35.159 now I'm starting to realize in all the ways that 0:04:35.320 --> 0:04:39.520 I manipulate, which is such a hard thing to rub 0:04:39.600 --> 0:04:43.520 up against because to be honest about I'm not giving 0:04:43.600 --> 0:04:47.920 out of love. I'm giving out of manipulation in order 0:04:47.920 --> 0:04:50.600 to get my need met or out of fear. Then 0:04:50.640 --> 0:04:53.120 you come up against the question of like, well when 0:04:53.240 --> 0:04:56.119 do I give out of love? Like what is love? 0:04:56.880 --> 0:04:59.360 What's something else other than manipulation? Because that's the way 0:04:59.360 --> 0:05:01.200 we've learned to love, that's the way we learned to 0:05:01.240 --> 0:05:04.440 get and receive love. And it's a it's a hard one. 0:05:05.560 --> 0:05:09.039 Well it is. It's like facing the shadow self and 0:05:09.080 --> 0:05:11.560 being like, Okay, I'm human. I've got the light, and 0:05:11.600 --> 0:05:13.799 of course I have the darkness because we all do. 0:05:14.440 --> 0:05:17.039 But I remember in my twenties and early third daies 0:05:17.120 --> 0:05:20.039 first coming up against like what is my shadow self? 0:05:20.400 --> 0:05:23.760 And it's super painful because we have a particular way 0:05:23.839 --> 0:05:29.960 of perceiving ourselves ego dysk tonic. It's called where our 0:05:30.040 --> 0:05:34.040 idea of ourselves? When I was, you know, codependently attached 0:05:34.080 --> 0:05:36.599 to every human being on planet Earth in my life, 0:05:37.160 --> 0:05:41.920 giving out of not not love, right, giving out of 0:05:41.960 --> 0:05:46.120 wanting to be needed, and with codependency you're giving because 0:05:46.120 --> 0:05:48.560 it's fear of rejection. There's all of the things that 0:05:48.600 --> 0:05:52.320 are there. I really thought I was like mother Teresa. 0:05:52.440 --> 0:05:56.240 Like honestly, I was like, I'm just a lover like that, 0:05:56.360 --> 0:05:58.120 you know. I mean, I'm just I'm just all hard 0:05:58.279 --> 0:06:00.920 as me until I had to me is in therapist 0:06:01.520 --> 0:06:05.960 right who helped me see because I was trying to 0:06:06.360 --> 0:06:09.600 manipulate and fix this situation that one of my siblings 0:06:09.680 --> 0:06:13.520 was in that was a bad situation and abusive relationship, drugs, 0:06:14.360 --> 0:06:17.880 no running water like that bad. Yeah, And I was 0:06:18.040 --> 0:06:20.400 crying to my therapist and being like what am I 0:06:20.400 --> 0:06:22.840 going to do? I've been I tried this, and I 0:06:22.920 --> 0:06:24.880 tried that, Like what am I going to do? You know? 0:06:25.560 --> 0:06:29.679 And she was like, hello, Well, since it's not your life, 0:06:31.440 --> 0:06:34.279 watch and cry. I don't I don't know, but it's 0:06:34.320 --> 0:06:37.520 not on me to do something. But she was like, 0:06:37.600 --> 0:06:40.520 do you understand what's happening? And I was like no, 0:06:40.880 --> 0:06:44.800 but please enlighten me because I really don't understand. And 0:06:44.880 --> 0:06:47.359 she said, you've worked for twenty years in therapy or 0:06:47.400 --> 0:06:50.239 fifteen years whatever it was at that point to create 0:06:50.279 --> 0:06:54.240 a pretty harmonious in her life and a pretty harmonious 0:06:54.279 --> 0:06:57.920 outer life, you know, relationships, whatever. So what's really happening 0:06:58.000 --> 0:07:01.159 is that you want to fix your sister's problems because 0:07:01.320 --> 0:07:04.080 her dumpster fire of a life is getting in the 0:07:04.120 --> 0:07:10.040 way of your internal peace. Interesting, that is so much 0:07:10.160 --> 0:07:14.960 less cool than being mother Teresa, but whatever. Yeah, absolutely, 0:07:15.040 --> 0:07:17.280 it is for your own sanity so that you don't 0:07:17.320 --> 0:07:20.280 have to feel the paint through them. Basically, yeah, I 0:07:20.520 --> 0:07:23.840 totally understand that. You talk about codependency. You talk about 0:07:23.960 --> 0:07:26.880 high functioning codependency in your book, and I was wondering 0:07:26.920 --> 0:07:29.520 if you could elaborate on that and what that is, 0:07:29.600 --> 0:07:31.840 what the signs are so we can all sit here 0:07:32.000 --> 0:07:34.280 like I'm doing and not our head. Yes that is us, 0:07:34.880 --> 0:07:37.120 because I feel like we all have a level of 0:07:37.120 --> 0:07:40.559 this to some degree, yes, especially being raised as women, 0:07:40.640 --> 0:07:45.080 because we really are the bridgers, the assuagers, the soothers 0:07:45.560 --> 0:07:48.160 of the world, so we're sort of the producers, like 0:07:48.280 --> 0:07:51.360 keeping it going, you know. So first of all, the 0:07:51.640 --> 0:07:54.760 backstory on why high functioning codependency as opposed to just 0:07:54.880 --> 0:08:00.920 regular old codependency is that my clients didn't identify I 0:08:00.920 --> 0:08:03.880 would see codependent behavior, I would mention it, and they 0:08:03.880 --> 0:08:07.240 would go no, no, No, you're confused. I'm not dependent 0:08:07.280 --> 0:08:11.400 on squad like everyone is dependent on me. I'm doing everything, 0:08:11.400 --> 0:08:14.560 I'm making all the dough. No, you're wrong, I'm not 0:08:14.640 --> 0:08:17.080 that I'm not involved with an addict. Right. There was 0:08:17.120 --> 0:08:21.080 this old school idea from Codependent No More that came 0:08:21.080 --> 0:08:25.160 out in the early eighties. Maybe so I got it 0:08:25.160 --> 0:08:28.960 because I had a different sort of relationship to codependency too. 0:08:29.560 --> 0:08:34.680 I found that my clients were highly capable, extremely smart 0:08:34.960 --> 0:08:39.000 women who were basically running the world, and yet they 0:08:39.000 --> 0:08:42.160 were doing it at the expense of themselves. So I 0:08:42.200 --> 0:08:47.840 added high functioning to codependency. Right. Yes, I'm raising my hands. 0:08:49.000 --> 0:08:51.720 I'm glad you're explaining this because when I turned thirty, 0:08:51.840 --> 0:08:53.800 I had hit kind of rock bottom for myself and 0:08:53.840 --> 0:08:56.640 went into to treatment, and I basically went in for 0:08:56.640 --> 0:08:59.720 a codependency. I mean codependency and anxiety, depression and all 0:08:59.760 --> 0:09:03.080 things come along with it. But until your book, I 0:09:03.160 --> 0:09:05.400 was like, I'm not cod upend, what are you talking about? 0:09:05.400 --> 0:09:07.680 And then you talking about high functional codependent. I'm like, 0:09:07.679 --> 0:09:11.600 oh shit, I didn't really completely detached from that need 0:09:11.960 --> 0:09:14.720 or that ameshment. I guess in a way, yes, and 0:09:14.800 --> 0:09:18.160 that behavioral interaction. So for those of you who don't 0:09:18.200 --> 0:09:21.120 know what codependency is, according to Terry Coal, it is 0:09:21.160 --> 0:09:25.800 being overly invested in the feeling states, the decisions, the outcomes, 0:09:25.840 --> 0:09:29.760 and the circumstances of the people in your life. But 0:09:29.920 --> 0:09:34.240 it's to the detriment of your internal peace, or your 0:09:34.440 --> 0:09:38.680 physical or financial well being or spiritual well being. Because 0:09:38.720 --> 0:09:42.680 as lovers, mothers, bonus moms, all the things that we are, 0:09:43.600 --> 0:09:46.240 of course, we're invested in the happiness of the people 0:09:46.320 --> 0:09:51.040 we love. But when you're codependent, you feel responsible. So 0:09:51.080 --> 0:09:53.040 if you're listening to this and you're like, I don't know, 0:09:53.120 --> 0:09:56.240 am I, I'm going to ask you right now to 0:09:56.320 --> 0:10:01.120 check your urgency. When you're best friend gets in touch 0:10:01.160 --> 0:10:04.160 with you and says, oh my God, I have this 0:10:04.240 --> 0:10:07.080 terrible situation, this thing happened. I don't know what to do. 0:10:07.200 --> 0:10:11.480 If that feels like you immediately jump into action, and 0:10:12.360 --> 0:10:17.400 it literally feels like your friends problem is yours to fix. 0:10:17.559 --> 0:10:23.240 You feel that weight and that urgency that is codependency now, 0:10:23.400 --> 0:10:25.040 because I feel the way in the urgency of the 0:10:25.040 --> 0:10:27.640 whole world, because I feel like I'm super empathetic and 0:10:27.760 --> 0:10:30.320 it's just me as an artist, I have that kind 0:10:30.320 --> 0:10:34.240 of connection with life. How do you really differentiate between, Oh, 0:10:34.280 --> 0:10:37.800 I'm an empathetic person and then I'm also codependent because 0:10:37.800 --> 0:10:41.880 those can feel like very similar things. Well they can, 0:10:41.880 --> 0:10:44.439 but not really because here's the thing yet, yes, on 0:10:44.559 --> 0:10:47.319 the feeling thing, right, because in both situations there's a 0:10:47.840 --> 0:10:52.679 feeling element, But when you're codependent, you're not just feeling 0:10:52.720 --> 0:10:58.640 like compassion or empathy for your friends situation. You feel 0:10:59.000 --> 0:11:03.840 responsible to fix it, and that is totally different. It's 0:11:03.920 --> 0:11:07.440 one thing to say to your friend, Hey, I'm here 0:11:07.440 --> 0:11:09.680 for you. How can I best support you? Right now? 0:11:10.040 --> 0:11:13.040 Are we brainstorming? What what do you need? How can 0:11:13.040 --> 0:11:16.680 I best support you? Knowing that just like in my 0:11:16.720 --> 0:11:22.480 sister's situation, it was not mine to fix, right my 0:11:22.520 --> 0:11:25.400 therapist has said to me in that scenario, what makes 0:11:25.480 --> 0:11:28.520 you think you know what lessons your sister needs to 0:11:28.600 --> 0:11:31.400 learn in this life? Right? And I was like, I 0:11:31.400 --> 0:11:33.520 don't know. I think can we all agree cannot be 0:11:33.559 --> 0:11:36.160 in the woods with no running water with some crackhead's abusive? 0:11:36.240 --> 0:11:41.240 Like can we agree? You would think, But she was 0:11:41.320 --> 0:11:44.320 like I don't know, Terry, like I can't say that. 0:11:44.320 --> 0:11:46.720 That's not how she has to learn. And when I 0:11:46.760 --> 0:11:49.920 stepped back from that relationship, not you know and said, hey, 0:11:50.000 --> 0:11:51.480 if you ever really want to get out, I'm here. 0:11:51.480 --> 0:11:53.320 I love you, but I can't have you talking about 0:11:53.480 --> 0:11:56.960 abuse all day long. Nine months later she got in touch, 0:11:57.040 --> 0:11:59.280 She's like, I'm ready to go, moved around to went 0:11:59.280 --> 0:12:03.600 back to school osber and did it on her own terms. 0:12:03.640 --> 0:12:05.480 And I was happy to be a part of the solution, 0:12:05.559 --> 0:12:09.560 but it wasn't my solution. It was her solution for 0:12:09.600 --> 0:12:12.720 her life. And I actually talked quite a bit in 0:12:12.760 --> 0:12:16.040 the book than to what you're talking about with highly 0:12:16.120 --> 0:12:23.240 sensitive people and empaths, because it does impact how we 0:12:23.280 --> 0:12:27.480 interact in our relationships. If you identify as someone who 0:12:27.559 --> 0:12:31.320 is an EmPATH, we don't just feel sympathy for others 0:12:33.000 --> 0:12:35.520 we feel what's going on like it is going on 0:12:35.640 --> 0:12:38.960 for us, but the healthy part of our minds has 0:12:39.000 --> 0:12:42.559 to know it's not, and that we can be supportive 0:12:42.640 --> 0:12:46.800 and stay lovingly connected to others without thinking that we 0:12:46.880 --> 0:12:51.520 know better than they do. My pattern, my whole life 0:12:51.520 --> 0:12:54.559 has been I need to fix your emotional state so 0:12:54.600 --> 0:12:57.839 that I can feel safe. I've worked through a lot 0:12:57.880 --> 0:13:00.440 of this, and like I said, many many years, and 0:13:00.520 --> 0:13:03.160 now I'm coming to a new level of understanding and 0:13:03.200 --> 0:13:06.080 working through some things. But Eddie, my husband was in 0:13:06.080 --> 0:13:10.840 a bad mood about something, and I allowed myself and 0:13:10.880 --> 0:13:14.040 I had a real experience and embodied experience of not 0:13:14.160 --> 0:13:16.800 having to go into his bad mood to fix it. 0:13:16.840 --> 0:13:18.680 I was like, I'll just let him. He's gonna do 0:13:18.679 --> 0:13:20.719 his own thing whatever. I'm going to have a good day. 0:13:20.720 --> 0:13:22.559 It doesn't have I don't have to match his mood. 0:13:23.280 --> 0:13:27.040 And I felt strange. Number one and number two, I 0:13:27.160 --> 0:13:31.160 felt good. I was like, oh, because me matching his 0:13:31.679 --> 0:13:35.440 emotional state doesn't help either of us. It just and 0:13:35.480 --> 0:13:37.920 then he's out of it, and then I'm still in it. 0:13:38.760 --> 0:13:41.200 And then I feel resentment because all of a sudden, 0:13:41.200 --> 0:13:44.160 now I feel like I'm carrying it. For him and 0:13:44.200 --> 0:13:46.520 then he just he dejects from it, he feels better, 0:13:46.559 --> 0:13:49.880 and now I'm carrying it. And so that's basically been 0:13:49.920 --> 0:13:52.200 like the dance of my whole life and the way 0:13:52.240 --> 0:13:55.160 that I feel like I've been codependent because I feel 0:13:55.200 --> 0:13:59.080 like I'm somehow emotionally saving people and then carrying the 0:13:59.080 --> 0:14:02.520 weight of it, which is a shitty way to live 0:14:02.600 --> 0:14:05.400 once you especially once you have an embodied experience out 0:14:05.440 --> 0:14:08.880 of it, You're like, WHOA that that's a heavy heavy 0:14:08.920 --> 0:14:13.000 weight to carry it is. It's also not great for 0:14:13.240 --> 0:14:17.959 relationships because it really builds because you know, I'm obviously 0:14:18.040 --> 0:14:22.440 a recovering codependent, and it is a discipline. M I 0:14:22.440 --> 0:14:24.640 feel like it's a lot like stopping drinking right where 0:14:25.240 --> 0:14:28.200 it isn't just like oh good, I'm glad that's over right. 0:14:28.400 --> 0:14:32.680 You still have to mindfully because my nature would still 0:14:32.800 --> 0:14:36.400 be to fix the bad mood, to take on the 0:14:36.440 --> 0:14:40.080 bad mood too. I'm more about trying to change the 0:14:40.120 --> 0:14:42.720 bad mood right like where I'm like, what do you 0:14:42.760 --> 0:14:44.960 have to be sad about? We have everything? You should 0:14:44.960 --> 0:14:48.200 be grateful, you know, judging I'm I'm more mean about 0:14:48.280 --> 0:14:52.920 it when I fall into it, but I really work 0:14:53.040 --> 0:14:56.200 not to end, to be able to acknowledge, or I'll 0:14:56.200 --> 0:14:57.760 say to my husband if he's in a bad mood, 0:14:57.800 --> 0:15:00.600 and of course, fifteen years ago, that would then be 0:15:00.920 --> 0:15:04.480 my mood, or I'd be fixing. I'm able to say, hey, 0:15:05.520 --> 0:15:07.680 how can I best support you? Seem like you're bummed. 0:15:08.160 --> 0:15:10.760 He'll used to say something sarcastic, because he's an artist. 0:15:10.760 --> 0:15:13.320 He'd be like, if you could learn to draw. I'm like, okay, 0:15:13.320 --> 0:15:17.200 well I was being sincere and you're an asshole, so like, 0:15:17.880 --> 0:15:25.040 just no, exactly, let me take that over here and 0:15:25.080 --> 0:15:29.040 see you later. Totally, So he doesn't do that anymore. 0:15:29.080 --> 0:15:31.520 But you know, he'll say, no, it's I'm just in 0:15:31.560 --> 0:15:34.760 a mood. I'll be like, okay, but like you in 0:15:34.880 --> 0:15:38.120 being able to walk away and being like I am 0:15:38.440 --> 0:15:43.760 one person. My husband is a separate human being. It doesn't. 0:15:43.840 --> 0:15:47.800 It is such a childhood thing to feel responsible for 0:15:47.840 --> 0:15:51.600 the whole room, like I'll throw myself under the bus 0:15:52.280 --> 0:15:55.120 to make it better for others, or to avoid conflict 0:15:55.200 --> 0:15:57.120 or to not rock the boat, or to make sure 0:15:57.120 --> 0:16:00.480 everyone else is happy. But of course you see, and 0:16:00.720 --> 0:16:04.600 all of us get to our peak moment and and 0:16:04.640 --> 0:16:06.840 it looks different for me. I was diagnosed with cancer 0:16:06.840 --> 0:16:09.560 in my early thirties where and I have no doubt 0:16:09.800 --> 0:16:16.600 that there was some connection to my level of over functioning, overgiving, overdoing, 0:16:16.920 --> 0:16:20.080 feeling overly responsible for all of the humans on planet 0:16:20.080 --> 0:16:23.440 Earth right that I wouldn't stop, And so the universe 0:16:23.600 --> 0:16:26.200 was like, well, tapping her around the shoulder hasn't worked, 0:16:27.200 --> 0:16:29.520 so maybe throwing her down a flight of stairs will, 0:16:29.600 --> 0:16:36.960 which it did, thank God. Yes, all right, on that note, 0:16:37.040 --> 0:16:39.200 we are going to take a quick break, but we'll 0:16:39.240 --> 0:16:50.280 be right back. Welcome back, Loves. I am talking with 0:16:50.440 --> 0:16:53.600 Terry Cole about the fun wake up calls that we 0:16:53.640 --> 0:16:57.400 get from the universe. I had that experience the other 0:16:57.480 --> 0:17:00.160 day of being on stage. I did my first show 0:17:00.200 --> 0:17:04.280 out um in sixteen seventeen months. I haven't had time 0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:08.760 off like that and not entertaining people for my whole 0:17:08.800 --> 0:17:13.760 life basically, And I was so triggered walking back into this. 0:17:13.840 --> 0:17:15.879 I didn't realize how much my nervous system had actually 0:17:15.920 --> 0:17:18.440 like calm down until I walked back into it, and 0:17:18.520 --> 0:17:21.280 I was like, oh, all the unhealthy things about this 0:17:21.359 --> 0:17:25.320 and and it was And it's interesting because I've had 0:17:25.359 --> 0:17:29.200 to cater to thousands and thousands of people in front 0:17:29.200 --> 0:17:31.639 of me and what what I think they're wanting? Like 0:17:31.720 --> 0:17:34.520 that was kind of the way that I was That's 0:17:34.520 --> 0:17:37.480 what I was taught to do, and it doesn't feel 0:17:37.520 --> 0:17:40.120 good anymore. Now It's like what do I have to give? 0:17:40.160 --> 0:17:41.959 What am I wanting? And then how can they be 0:17:42.000 --> 0:17:46.520 a part of that? And this is where it really 0:17:46.600 --> 0:17:48.680 hit me the other day, being on stage and being 0:17:48.680 --> 0:17:50.680 in front of people in the way that I can't 0:17:50.920 --> 0:17:53.800 cater like that anymore. And something that instantly came up 0:17:53.800 --> 0:17:57.240 for me is I'm done entertaining. I want to connect. 0:17:57.920 --> 0:18:00.280 And I see that as a through line through about 0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:03.720 my life, especially with my with my husband, with my friendships. 0:18:03.760 --> 0:18:07.000 It's like, I'm sick of entertaining. I want to connect 0:18:07.160 --> 0:18:10.560 wherever both of us are as separate, whole human beings, 0:18:11.200 --> 0:18:15.000 Let's connect from there, because otherwise otherwise I do. I 0:18:15.040 --> 0:18:18.280 feel like I'm entertaining people constantly. But you know, Len, 0:18:18.400 --> 0:18:20.919 this is like a perfect time and the trajectory of 0:18:21.000 --> 0:18:25.080 your evolution to bring boundaries in in a real way, 0:18:25.080 --> 0:18:28.199 because that's what you're talking about, Like I am making 0:18:28.240 --> 0:18:33.000 a different relationship with my audience is basically what you're saying. 0:18:33.000 --> 0:18:37.040 I want the connection and not the separation that entertainment 0:18:37.119 --> 0:18:39.640 can be right, like, you're over there and I'm over 0:18:39.720 --> 0:18:44.360 here making the connection. Not to mention, let's just establish 0:18:44.440 --> 0:18:46.879 quickly for those people who are listening and are like, 0:18:47.000 --> 0:18:49.359 I don't even know what freedom boundaries are because to 0:18:49.600 --> 0:18:52.639 do that, but we got into a conversation that just 0:18:52.800 --> 0:18:55.439 took the road all the way down. Yes, please do 0:18:55.480 --> 0:18:58.159 just keep going. Okay. So, according to me in the 0:18:58.200 --> 0:19:01.360 way that I teach it in the book, is boundaries 0:19:01.400 --> 0:19:06.479 are you knowing your preferences, your desires, your limits, and 0:19:06.600 --> 0:19:10.920 your deal breakers and having the ability to communicate those 0:19:11.359 --> 0:19:14.639 when you so choose, right, you don't have to, you 0:19:14.680 --> 0:19:19.439 want to. So those are the things, your preferences, your desires, 0:19:19.960 --> 0:19:22.840 your limits, and your deal breakers. They're the things that 0:19:22.920 --> 0:19:28.960 actually make you uniquely you and mine make me uniquely me. 0:19:29.600 --> 0:19:32.040 And so one of the biggest problems I saw when I, 0:19:32.400 --> 0:19:34.520 you know, I was in entertainment, you know, as an 0:19:34.520 --> 0:19:37.080 agent that became a psychotherapist. When I got into the 0:19:37.080 --> 0:19:42.600 psychotherapy world, besides my own boundary struggles and evolution, I 0:19:42.640 --> 0:19:45.600 saw that this lack of boundaries, even knowing what they are, 0:19:45.720 --> 0:19:48.520 lack of talking true as I call it was a 0:19:48.520 --> 0:19:52.840 frigging epidemic every person who came into my office, no 0:19:52.880 --> 0:19:55.919 matter why they were walking through the door. When I 0:19:56.040 --> 0:19:59.040 really followed the dots back to the pain point, it 0:19:59.240 --> 0:20:02.080 was there in a pity, you know, to say no 0:20:02.280 --> 0:20:05.040 when they wanted to say no, or to share their 0:20:05.080 --> 0:20:09.239 preference about something with someone. Like we were trained to 0:20:09.280 --> 0:20:14.760 believe that being easy is preferable. Right, you don't have 0:20:14.840 --> 0:20:17.320 a preference just you know me? I mean, think about 0:20:17.320 --> 0:20:19.920 all the phrases that people say, right, you know me, 0:20:20.000 --> 0:20:23.880 I'm easy. It's all good, is it? Though? Like? Why 0:20:24.000 --> 0:20:26.119 is having a preference not good? Like I don't get it, 0:20:26.200 --> 0:20:30.280 you know. So that's where we're going to start with 0:20:31.000 --> 0:20:36.560 boundaries and with talking true, because ultimately, if you don't 0:20:36.600 --> 0:20:39.760 share those things preferences, desires, limits, deal breakers with the 0:20:39.760 --> 0:20:43.320 people in your life, we're giving the people who we 0:20:43.440 --> 0:20:48.040 love the most corrupted intel or data about who we are. 0:20:49.200 --> 0:20:53.240 So how can anyone authentically love us when we're so 0:20:53.320 --> 0:20:56.040 busy keeping ourselves in a box or trying to be 0:20:56.119 --> 0:21:00.280 pleasing to everyone else, or do we even know who 0:21:00.359 --> 0:21:02.919 we are? And I think so many women end up 0:21:02.960 --> 0:21:06.600 in my office being like I'm fifty and I have 0:21:06.680 --> 0:21:08.159 no idea who I am because I love done his 0:21:08.280 --> 0:21:11.919 checkboxes my whole life. That's been an interesting ride for 0:21:12.040 --> 0:21:14.760 me and I as I was reading your book, I 0:21:14.800 --> 0:21:18.520 have yet to make my list of those. And you 0:21:18.520 --> 0:21:21.800 know what, I've found so much resistance when I've gone 0:21:21.840 --> 0:21:25.520 to do this in my life, to make my list 0:21:25.560 --> 0:21:29.520 of desires and needs, and I feel like I'm going 0:21:29.560 --> 0:21:33.520 to be taking up too much space when i create 0:21:33.600 --> 0:21:36.200 these lists, and then I think are these really mine? 0:21:36.280 --> 0:21:39.040 Or am I trying to still please someone within this list? 0:21:39.160 --> 0:21:41.840 And then you start to be so a meshed with 0:21:42.080 --> 0:21:44.679 the whole world basically that you don't know what's truly 0:21:44.720 --> 0:21:47.639 yours and what's not. But I do think like just 0:21:47.720 --> 0:21:49.840 my simple thing I want to entertain and I want 0:21:49.840 --> 0:21:52.719 to connect like that all of a sudden felt like 0:21:52.760 --> 0:21:55.560 a real truth. I feel like there's body wisdom in this, 0:21:55.680 --> 0:21:58.640 and like when it feels like you connect so deeply 0:21:58.800 --> 0:22:00.600 where it feels like for me it runs through my 0:22:00.680 --> 0:22:04.480 whole body. I know, like that's me yep, But imagine 0:22:04.520 --> 0:22:08.840 feeling that way all the time because we love that. Yes. Well, well, 0:22:08.880 --> 0:22:12.400 the more you do this, though, the more you see 0:22:12.440 --> 0:22:15.840 that as we honor our boundaries right. Because this is 0:22:15.880 --> 0:22:20.520 all about our relationship with ourselves. And even though we 0:22:20.600 --> 0:22:23.240 are raised to look outside of ourselves all the time 0:22:23.280 --> 0:22:26.959 to make sure everyone else is okay, the truth in 0:22:27.160 --> 0:22:30.879 life is that our relationship with ourselves right, that sets 0:22:30.920 --> 0:22:36.120 the bar for every other relationship that we have. So 0:22:36.320 --> 0:22:38.359 if we have a low opinion of ourselves, if we 0:22:38.400 --> 0:22:40.760 work ourselves to death, if we're always last on our 0:22:40.800 --> 0:22:46.000 own list, so to speak, inevitably we attract people who 0:22:46.000 --> 0:22:50.119 are takers because we are givers, and then eventually we 0:22:50.200 --> 0:22:54.440 are resentful. So when you have a better relationship to yourself, 0:22:55.240 --> 0:22:57.160 take better care of yourself. I don't mean you personally, 0:22:57.200 --> 0:23:00.159 I just mean in general. We are letting people know, 0:23:00.800 --> 0:23:04.560 oh hey, this is an appropriate way drawing boundaries is 0:23:04.640 --> 0:23:09.240 letting people know this is okay with me, this is 0:23:09.280 --> 0:23:12.080 not okay with me, right, And it's the most loving 0:23:12.160 --> 0:23:15.359 thing that you can do, because then the people in 0:23:15.400 --> 0:23:23.000 your life actually know who you are. They're not guessing 0:23:23.080 --> 0:23:25.920 it always, And then we're we end up presenting those 0:23:25.960 --> 0:23:29.960 people for getting it wrong and then for allowing really 0:23:30.000 --> 0:23:34.239 this relationship where their needs are being taken care of 0:23:34.280 --> 0:23:38.840 only and ours are ours are not, And it's painful recently, 0:23:38.880 --> 0:23:42.560 I've I've had a much better relationship with self. And 0:23:43.440 --> 0:23:45.000 one of the things that has come up for me 0:23:45.320 --> 0:23:49.480 so deeply is the amount of resentment that I have 0:23:49.880 --> 0:23:55.119 for the entire world. It's like and and to admit 0:23:55.240 --> 0:23:58.200 that what has been it's literally been over the past week. 0:23:58.240 --> 0:24:00.360 I'm like, I was in everything and everyone and having 0:24:00.359 --> 0:24:04.399 to do everything and this I mean, And my my 0:24:04.680 --> 0:24:08.119