Speaker 1: Pushkin.
Speaker 2: You know, I looked around at my friends and I
Speaker 2: was like, well, why doesn't this love matter? Why have
Speaker 2: I been told that this love doesn't count? It called
Speaker 2: into the question some of the beliefs that I had
Speaker 2: about romantic versus platonic love. I thought that those messages
Speaker 2: were actively harming me, and that they might be harming
Speaker 2: other people too.
Speaker 1: That's doctor Marissa Franco, a psychologist and an expert on friendship.
Speaker 1: Society often teaches us that friendship is secondary to other
Speaker 1: relationships like family or romantic partners, and Marissa wants to
Speaker 1: change that. In our conversation, she shares some helpful strategies
Speaker 1: to enrich the quality of our friendships, including a concept
Speaker 1: known as mutuality.
Speaker 2: Mutuality is different from a lot of the ways that
Speaker 2: we think about friendship in terms of like we might
Speaker 2: think of it as reciprocity, like I reach out this time,
Speaker 2: you should reach out the next time. But mutuality is
Speaker 2: taking a step back to look at the broader dynamics
Speaker 2: that are going on for each of us and figuring
Speaker 2: out whose needs make sense to prioritize in this given situation.
Speaker 1: On today's episode, we explore the science of friendship. Why
Speaker 1: it matters more than we might think, and what we
Speaker 1: can do to make new friends and keep the ones
Speaker 1: we have. I'm Maya Shunker, and this is a slight
Speaker 1: change of plans, a show about who we are and
Speaker 1: who we become in the face of a big change.
Speaker 1: Marisa is the author of the book Platonic, How the
Speaker 1: Science of Attachment can help You Make and keep Friends.
Speaker 1: She realized just how important friendship was to her when
Speaker 1: she was in her early twenties and navigating a painful breakup.
Speaker 2: I think I just felt that if I couldn't maintain
Speaker 2: this romantic relationship, then I wasn't lovable. I didn't have
Speaker 2: any love in my life, and I was feeling so miserable.
Speaker 2: I think in part because of those beliefs and to heal,
Speaker 2: I ended up asking my friend HEATHERN, what if we
Speaker 2: start this wellness group. We can meet up, practice wellness,
Speaker 2: cook do yoga, go on walks, have dinner. And I
Speaker 2: thought that would really help me heal my grief. And
Speaker 2: it did. Like meeting up with these friends every week
Speaker 2: totally healed me. It wasn't because we were meditating or doing yoga,
Speaker 2: it was just being in community with people that I
Speaker 2: loved that loved me every week. And I think another
Speaker 2: reason why that group really healed me is that it
Speaker 2: called into question some of the beliefs that I had
Speaker 2: that had caused me to take this break up so hard,
Speaker 2: which was here I was thinking I didn't have love
Speaker 2: in my life when I had evidence of just how
Speaker 2: loved I was every week, Like I could no longer
Speaker 2: engage in that lie that I didn't have love. You know,
Speaker 2: I felt like, well, I don't think this is just me.
Speaker 2: I think this really reflects something larger in our culture
Speaker 2: that's really harming and hurting us all, and so understanding
Speaker 2: it not just as my own lived experience, but as
Speaker 2: a larger societal cultural problem or issue that we had
Speaker 2: is really what drove me to want to write Platonic. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean, this is one of the reasons I was
Speaker 1: obsessed with having you on a slight Change of Plans
Speaker 1: is because I think your work does speak to this
Speaker 1: larger cultural issue, which is that we deprioritize friendship to
Speaker 1: a third rate relationship. And I was thinking back to
Speaker 1: my past and the views that I had, and I
Speaker 1: absolutely grew up thinking that romantic relationships sit at the
Speaker 1: top of the relationship hierarchy, and that if you don't
Speaker 1: have that, it really doesn't matter how many friends you
Speaker 1: have or how high quality those friendships are.
Speaker 2: Exactly yep. I had definitely felt the same way. And
Speaker 2: you know, I guess we even hear things like you
Speaker 2: need one person to complete you, which really made me
Speaker 2: feel like I didn't have a sense of self without
Speaker 2: having a romantic partner. And also like, why do we
Speaker 2: think that one template fits for everybody? I think that
Speaker 2: when we have a cultural narrative that's so crushing, it
Speaker 2: can get hard for people to actually discern, like what
Speaker 2: do I actually want in my life? What's actually best
Speaker 2: for me? Like would I prefer a life where I
Speaker 2: have a large network of friends and am single. But yeah,
Speaker 2: when your society teaches you that if you make that choice,
Speaker 2: you're less of a person, people aren't as free to
Speaker 2: actually discern what is the life that I actually want
Speaker 2: for myself.
Speaker 1: You know, the argument you make in your book is
Speaker 1: that we need to reclaim friendship and to the status
Speaker 1: that it deserves. So let's start there. I read in
Speaker 1: your book that there's a very interesting connection that exists
Speaker 1: between friendship and self identity, and that's a connection I'd
Speaker 1: never really thought about before, So can you tell us
Speaker 1: a bit more about this connection.
Speaker 2: So I think each person that we interact with is
Speaker 2: an advertisement for the kaleidoscope of ways in which we
Speaker 2: can live and the ways that people show up in
Speaker 2: the world, or how we learn to show up in
Speaker 2: the world too, Like that learning happens through being able
Speaker 2: to see a friend engage at a certain hobby or
Speaker 2: interest and you're like, maybe I would like that hobby
Speaker 2: or interests. Like it's that exposure that we get through
Speaker 2: each friend. And so in that way, it's like each
Speaker 2: person that we interact with can bring out a new
Speaker 2: and different side of our identity. And so when we're
Speaker 2: only interacting with one person, it's like, well, a spouse,
Speaker 2: which we've been told should be, you know, the only
Speaker 2: relationship we need to feel complete. Sometimes it's like we
Speaker 2: only have one experience of ourself and all of the
Speaker 2: parts of ourselves that maybe aren't aligned with what our
Speaker 2: spouse likes, not because you're incompact with your spouse, but
Speaker 2: just because you're different people with different hobbies and different interests.
Speaker 2: Those parts of you might not come out when you're
Speaker 2: only interacting with them. And so it requires us to
Speaker 2: be in community with different types of people, to experience
Speaker 2: the different sides of ourselves, and to have our identities
Speaker 2: fan out. And I think that this was a sense,
Speaker 2: at least I got a sense in the pandemic when
Speaker 2: I was living with a partner and still feeling like
Speaker 2: unease or still feeling like it's a weird sort of
Speaker 2: malaise when you're just like, I don't know, my identity
Speaker 2: is kind of scrunching inward, like I would hang out
Speaker 2: with my friends and feel like I'm just filling with life.
Speaker 2: I don't know, I just have different emotions that tend
Speaker 2: to come up around different people. And so I was
Speaker 2: experiencing my palette of emotions more greatly. And I think
Speaker 2: that's really important, because I think there's a lot of
Speaker 2: feeling gray and feeling bleak or feeling kind of numb,
Speaker 2: and so it almost made me feel more alive to
Speaker 2: feel like, Oh, with this friend, I'm like laughing and
Speaker 2: we're joking about this thing, and we're excited about this
Speaker 2: other thing. And that might have been part of why
Speaker 2: they just made me feel like more expansive and more
Speaker 2: live when I interacted with them.
Speaker 1: Marissa, I'm curious. Is there research showing that there's a
Speaker 1: strong connection between friendship and our physical and mental health.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So there's a study that found that people that
Speaker 2: were exposed to the virus that causes the common cold,
Speaker 2: for example, were less likely to actually contract the common
Speaker 2: cold when they had a diversity of support, when they
Speaker 2: weren't just relying on a spouse, but relying on different
Speaker 2: people for support in their lives. And there's other research
Speaker 2: that just links having a diversity of support to your
Speaker 2: general sense of well being overall.
Speaker 1: I love the research Marisa that shows that healthy, strong
Speaker 1: friendships are associated with more resilience and our other relationships.
Speaker 1: Do you mind sharing a bit more about that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love this research too, because I think it's
Speaker 2: unfortunate that we sometimes perceive our romantic relationships and our
Speaker 2: friendships as antagonistic, like, oh, you're hanging out with your friends,
Speaker 2: you're not hanging out out with me, instead of well,
Speaker 2: you're hanging out with your friends. That's great. Now we
Speaker 2: can have more quality connection when you come back, definitely,
Speaker 2: which is the truth, because you know, research finds that,
Speaker 2: for example, if I make a friend, not only am
Speaker 2: I less depressed, but my romantic partner is also likely
Speaker 2: to be less depressed. So what can improve when partner's
Speaker 2: mental health will likely improve the other partner's mental health.
Speaker 2: And that's what we see when people make friends. There's
Speaker 2: research that finds that when spouses are in a state
Speaker 2: of conflict, it negatively impacts their release of the stress
Speaker 2: hormone cortisol, but not when they have that quality connection
Speaker 2: outside of the marriage as well. And so it's just like,
Speaker 2: if you're just relying on your spouse, whatever happens in
Speaker 2: that relationship is going to be so deterministic for how
Speaker 2: you're doing overall. But if you have quality connection outside
Speaker 2: of the marriage, it's like you have a buffer, you know,
Speaker 2: you kind of have a shield. Like if things aren't
Speaker 2: going well, that doesn't mean that you're completely sunk internally
Speaker 2: because you can rely on these outside resources as a
Speaker 2: pick me up.
Speaker 1: Okay, so Marisa, you've convinced us that friendship is important, right,
Speaker 1: is something that we should all be working to invest in.
Speaker 1: I'm wondering if we can get tactical at this stage
Speaker 1: and if we can learn from you how we can
Speaker 1: do a better job of making friends in adulthood.
Speaker 2: I think an issue that we have is that we
Speaker 2: think friendship will happen in adulthood like it did in childhood,
Speaker 2: which means we won't have to try and be intentional.
Speaker 2: And there's a sociologist, Rebecca Adams, and she says, when
Speaker 2: we have repeated, unplanned interaction and shared vulnerability, that's when
Speaker 2: friendships happen more organically in your adult life. It's like,
Speaker 2: do you see people in a way that's repeated over
Speaker 2: time even though it's not planned, like work, for example,
Speaker 2: and do you have your guard down? And at work,
Speaker 2: I don't know if people have their guard downs, like
Speaker 2: they tend to not be as vulnerable as they might
Speaker 2: be outside of the workplace. So basically what that means
Speaker 2: is like as adults, we don't have that same environment
Speaker 2: we had as kids to just rely on friendship happening.
Speaker 2: We can't assume that it happens organically anymore like we're
Speaker 2: going to have to try. And in fact, one study
Speaker 2: found that people that thought friendship happened without effort were
Speaker 2: more lonely over time, whereas those that saw it is
Speaker 2: happening based on effort, We're less lonely over time, and
Speaker 2: they're also more likely to actually make that effort so
Speaker 2: I think, you know, by showing up at a place
Speaker 2: of worship or a hobby or interest group. So you know,
Speaker 2: when we understand it as not happening organically, we understand that, Okay,
Speaker 2: that means I'm going to have to make a choice
Speaker 2: to do something in my life to find friends.
Speaker 1: Can you tell us a bit more about why repeated
Speaker 1: interactions are so important when it comes to facilitating friendship.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's because of something called the mirror exposure effect,
Speaker 2: which the mere exposure effect describes our tendency to like
Speaker 2: things that are familiar and for people to like us
Speaker 2: the more that we become familiar. If you continue to
Speaker 2: be exposed to someone, they don't harm you, then you
Speaker 2: feel trust with them. And so I think when we
Speaker 2: have that repeated interaction, mere exposure increases we like them more,
Speaker 2: they like us more. And if we do want to
Speaker 2: initiate an interaction and say something like hey, I've really
Speaker 2: enjoyed talking to you, would love to connect further, you
Speaker 2: open to exchanging contact information. We're just more likely to
Speaker 2: be successful versus when we've seen someone once, maybe at
Speaker 2: like a lecture at a bar, and then we ask
Speaker 2: them to hang out.
Speaker 1: You know, one reason we fear intitiating friendship is that,
Speaker 1: of course most of us are afraid of rejection. And
Speaker 1: so what's your advice to us to help us overcome
Speaker 1: this kind of anxiety.
Speaker 2: Well, the research finds that people like you more than
Speaker 2: you think they do.
Speaker 1: Me specifically right now, I'm just kidding.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you specifically the rest of us were it's gonna
Speaker 2: be rough out there that basically, when strangers interact, they
Speaker 2: then underestimate how like they are by the other person.
Speaker 2: And the more self critical you are, the more pronounced
Speaker 2: this underestimation is. And so generally people like us more
Speaker 2: than we might think. Like our brain is kind of
Speaker 2: programmed with this negativity bias where we register negative information
Speaker 2: more than positive, which means our predictions as to how
Speaker 2: we're coming off are often more cynical than the actual truth.
Speaker 2: So people are less likely to reject you than you think.
Speaker 2: And I also tell people to assume people like them,
Speaker 2: because the research finds that when people are told, you know,
Speaker 2: based on your personality profile, you will be liked. And
Speaker 2: this is a lie from the researchers, just deceiving people,
Speaker 2: but they actually go out into a group and they
Speaker 2: become warmer open and friendlier, and so it becomes a
Speaker 2: sort of self fulfilling prophecy. Whereas we know that people
Speaker 2: are who are more rejection sensitive, who tend to see
Speaker 2: rejection when it's not there, like, oh, my friend didn't
Speaker 2: text me back, or my friend came to this show
Speaker 2: and they didn't sit right next to me, Does that
Speaker 2: mean they don't like me? They actually tend to reject people.
Speaker 2: They become more cold, they become more withdrawn, and then
Speaker 2: people reject them back after you know they've been rejected.
Speaker 2: So in some ways, when we always think we're being rejected,
Speaker 2: it also influences our behavior to make that rejection more
Speaker 2: of a self fulfilling prophecy too.
Speaker 1: So to summarize, there is a This is so interesting
Speaker 1: because I talked with Vanessa Bonds for this show as well,
Speaker 1: and she calls this the liking gap, right, And I'm
Speaker 1: assuming that's what you're referring to, which is the liking gap.
Speaker 1: So there's a gap between our expectations of how much
Speaker 1: people really like us versus how much we think they
Speaker 1: like us. And the good news is that they tend
Speaker 1: to like us more than we think, So that's reassuring, yes,
Speaker 1: And then The second is just remember that it is
Speaker 1: a self fulfilling prophecy. So play the part of someone
Speaker 1: who believes they are likable and lovable and worthy of
Speaker 1: friendship love. And the more you do that, the more
Speaker 1: your best traits are recruited from you. Whereas if you
Speaker 1: go into a situation believing you'll get rejected, that will
Speaker 1: bring out the worst sides of you.
Speaker 2: Right exactly. You know, that is a really great point. Really,
Speaker 2: when I see people act in very harmful ways in
Speaker 2: their friendship, it's because they think people don't care about them, right,
Speaker 2: So I never reach out to my friends because I
Speaker 2: think they're going to see it as a burden. It's
Speaker 2: just when we think someone is going to reject us,
Speaker 2: it licenses us to engage in all types of harmful
Speaker 2: and crappy behaviors because we're like, they're not going to
Speaker 2: care anyway if I ghost them, So I guess I'm
Speaker 2: just going to ghost them because they don't really care
Speaker 2: about me. And so in some ways, I think that's
Speaker 2: why believing people care about you and believing people love
Speaker 2: you causes you to be a lot better of a friend.
Speaker 1: After the break, Marisa tells us how we can be
Speaker 1: better friends to the people who are already in our lives.
Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment with a slight change
Speaker 1: of plans. So we've talked up to this point about
Speaker 1: how it is that we can do a better job
Speaker 1: making new friends. Now I'd love to pivot to how
Speaker 1: we can do a better job of investing in and
Speaker 1: maintaining our current friendships. Yes, what are the factors that
Speaker 1: we should keep in mind?
Speaker 2: So when it comes to to keeping friends. That makes
Speaker 2: me think about this theory called risk regulation theory, which
Speaker 2: was originally created for romantic partners, but I think applies
Speaker 2: for friends too. And it's this idea that we decide
Speaker 2: how much to invest in a relationship based on our
Speaker 2: likelihood of being rejected. And the more that we can
Speaker 2: convey to someone that we won't reject them, the more
Speaker 2: they can invest in the relationship with us. And so
Speaker 2: showing affection towards friends, being generous towards friends, anything that
Speaker 2: shows someone that you love and you value them is
Speaker 2: going to help the friendship. It's going to deepen the friendship.
Speaker 2: Anything that shows care, consideration, investment in the other person,
Speaker 2: because that's a sign to that other person, like, oh,
Speaker 2: now I can invest in this relationship. It's safe for
Speaker 2: me to invest because of how much investment they've shown
Speaker 2: in me. And so I talk in my book about,
Speaker 2: for example, like generosity, affection, even I think vulnerability in
Speaker 2: some ways, like when people are vulnerable with us, that
Speaker 2: conveys to us that they trust us, and it makes
Speaker 2: us more likely to be vulnerable with them. All of
Speaker 2: these behaviors that show up investment are going to better
Speaker 2: our relationships. But we can also talk about misconcept called mutuality,
Speaker 2: and mutuality is different from a lot of the ways
Speaker 2: that we think about friendship in terms of we might
Speaker 2: think of it as reciprocity. I reach out this time,
Speaker 2: you should reach out the next time. But mutuality is
Speaker 2: like taking a step back to look at the broader
Speaker 2: dynamics that are going on for each of us and
Speaker 2: figuring out whose needs make sense to prioritize in this
Speaker 2: given situation. So what I mean by that maya is
Speaker 2: that there might be times when my friend is in
Speaker 2: a lot of stress, you know, going through mental health issues,
Speaker 2: just had a newborn baby, where I can't expect mutuality
Speaker 2: because I understand that I have greater capacity than they do.
Speaker 2: And then at other times you know, they might be
Speaker 2: investing more in me, Like Michelle Obama also talked about
Speaker 2: this in her new book, like a relationship is never
Speaker 2: going to be fifty to fifty, and I see that
Speaker 2: in terms of long term friendships too. There's going to
Speaker 2: be a period when you're giving more, there's going to
Speaker 2: be a period when you're getting more. And it's like
Speaker 2: the measure of equality is more so in life, like
Speaker 2: the larger scheme of things.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so funny that you mentioned that, because one
Speaker 1: of my best friends recently came over to share that
Speaker 1: she was pregnant, and she and her husband were here,
Speaker 1: and they joked, we're actually here to say our goodbyes,
Speaker 1: Maya and Jimmy, it's been so wonderful being friends with you.
Speaker 1: And of course she's nodding to the fact that, you know,
Speaker 1: first time parents kind of disappear for an extended period
Speaker 1: in those early years. And you know, it was a joke,
Speaker 1: but it did actually lead me to have a candid
Speaker 1: conversation with her a couple weeks later about how, for
Speaker 1: the first time ever since we met in college when
Speaker 1: we were teenagers, our lives are diverging in this really
Speaker 1: profound way. And so I'm wondering if you have advice
Speaker 1: for me in this case and listeners as well, about
Speaker 1: how to navigate friendships when our lives feel like they're
Speaker 1: entering completely different phases.
Speaker 2: I love the fact that you had a conversation with
Speaker 2: your friend, because I think part of the reason why
Speaker 2: friendships tend to tear when we move into these different
Speaker 2: stages is because we rely on a set of assumptions like, oh,
Speaker 2: this person as a kid, they have no time to
Speaker 2: talk to me, they don't want to hear from me,
Speaker 2: or people that have kids being like my single friend
Speaker 2: just thinks my life is boring and they don't want
Speaker 2: to be around my kids, so I can't hang out
Speaker 2: with them. And it's the set of assumptions that tends
Speaker 2: to pull us apart, whereas when we can actually have
Speaker 2: the conversation, okay, like I would love to still hang
Speaker 2: out sometime, What does that look like for you? Does
Speaker 2: it mean I have to come over after the kid
Speaker 2: is put to bed? How comfortable are you hanging out
Speaker 2: with the kid around? What are your boundaries around this?
Speaker 2: Instead of I'm just gonna assume that you're too busy
Speaker 2: to ever talk to me again, you can affirm an
Speaker 2: identity and a friend even though it's not your own,
Speaker 2: even it's not one that you would choose for yourself,
Speaker 2: but realizing that it's right for them. And that's actually
Speaker 2: related to maintaining best friendships over time, maintaining and deepening
Speaker 2: best friendships over time when you can do that. And
Speaker 2: so that looks like, even if we don't have the
Speaker 2: same life experience, let's still show interest in our differences.
Speaker 2: Let's still show interest in what's it like for you
Speaker 2: to be a mom, or what's it like for you
Speaker 2: to live your child this life? What are you doing
Speaker 2: with that? And instead of I'm assuming that because we
Speaker 2: have this difference, it's not something that we can connect on,
Speaker 2: because we do look for friendships for commonality but also
Speaker 2: for expansion. And so now this friendship is going to
Speaker 2: provide you an opportunity to expand and be like, oh,
Speaker 2: this is what it's like when someone really close to
Speaker 2: me has a kid, and these are what their concerns are,
Speaker 2: these are the things that stress them out, and just
Speaker 2: maintain curiosity about that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, touches back on a point you were making earlier
Speaker 1: in our conversation Marissa about how friendships can be mind
Speaker 1: expanding in this really powerful way. Right, you felt so
Speaker 1: alive when these parts of yourself were tapped into or
Speaker 1: you were learning about new aspects of the world. And
Speaker 1: I really love that reframe, and I think it's one
Speaker 1: I'll carry with me as my friend has this child.
Speaker 1: And another thing that she and I talked about in
Speaker 1: this conversation was the long term nature of our friendship.
Speaker 1: So we kind of acknowledge there might be some speed bumps,
Speaker 1: there might be some harder moments in time in the
Speaker 1: short term, but let's not forget that we are committed
Speaker 1: for life as friends.
Speaker 2: I love that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I found the converse pretty therapeutic because I think
Speaker 1: I was having a lot of anxiety around what would
Speaker 1: happen to this best friendship of mine, and so it
Speaker 1: felt good to confront it head on, even though I
Speaker 1: was a little nervous to have the conversation.
Speaker 2: I think that's really awesome. I think that's really really awesome,
Speaker 2: And it reminds me of the study on long distance
Speaker 2: friendships that maintaining them was kind of looking at the
Speaker 2: times when you don't talk as flexible not fragile, like
Speaker 2: friendship can eb and flow if we have an Ebb.
Speaker 2: Let's not assume the friendship is over and never reengage,
Speaker 2: but instead it assume that this is part of the
Speaker 2: life story of the friendship. There's going to be moments
Speaker 2: where we're spread apart, and then there's going to be
Speaker 2: moments where we come back together again.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you're reminding me this moment with this particular friend.
Speaker 1: We already share that in our history. So we were inseparable.
Speaker 1: We were attached at the hip when we were in college,
Speaker 1: and then she studied abroad for a period of time,
Speaker 1: and then obviously communication went down for a bit, and
Speaker 1: then a couple of years later, the intensity of our
Speaker 1: communications increased. I mean, there's been that waxing and waning already,
Speaker 1: and yet here we are in current days with a
Speaker 1: very stable, healthy friendship. And so it's nice to be
Speaker 1: able to look back at that historical data point as
Speaker 1: evidence that we can get through these periods where things
Speaker 1: go up and down.
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, And I was on a podcast with
Speaker 2: someone who was I think he was in the sixties
Speaker 2: and he never had kids, and he was like, just remember,
Speaker 2: your friendships are going to come back. Their kids are
Speaker 2: going to leave the nests, and then it's going to
Speaker 2: be like, you're back in your twenties, like how much
Speaker 2: time you want to spend with your friends.
Speaker 1: I'm like, wow, yeah, she's gonna need me eventually, and
Speaker 1: that she's an empty nester.
Speaker 2: I love it.
Speaker 1: I love it. So you know, I mentioned Marisa that
Speaker 1: I felt a little bit of anxiety when it came
Speaker 1: to raising this topic with my friend. And speaking of anxiety,
Speaker 1: one area that can cause us a lot of anxiety
Speaker 1: is fighting in the context of friendship.
Speaker 2: And in part this is.
Speaker 1: Because we're led to believe that it's unreasonable for us
Speaker 1: to have big arguments with our friends, because after all,
Speaker 1: they're just our friends, right, But you say in your
Speaker 1: book it's actually quite important to fight in friendship. Empower
Speaker 1: us in this moment, empower us to have those difficult
Speaker 1: conversations with friends where in the moment it feels easier
Speaker 1: just pushing under the rug, but that's not actually in
Speaker 1: the long term best interest of the friendship.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this was like my biggest growth area in friendships
Speaker 2: that I was like, being a good friend means me
Speaker 2: getting over it, totally getting over the problem that I
Speaker 2: have in this friendship, and then realizing, oh, I'm actually
Speaker 2: like just withdrawing, I'm not actually just getting over it,
Speaker 2: and it's hurting and harming my friendships. And so I
Speaker 2: started to read all this research that you know, people
Speaker 2: who really value friendship tend to actually address problems instead
Speaker 2: of just ignoring them, and that open empathic conflict is
Speaker 2: correlated with deeper intimacy, and so I was like, wow,
Speaker 2: am I actually missing out on this opportunity for intimacy
Speaker 2: by trying to ignore the conflict. And there's a psychoanalysts,
Speaker 2: Virginia Goldner, who talks about how you can have flaccid safety,
Speaker 2: which is basically we're close because we pretend there's no
Speaker 2: or any problems or dynamic safety where you could actually
Speaker 2: rupture and repair and rupture and repair. And then you
Speaker 2: have a president that whenever a problem comes up, we
Speaker 2: know that we can actually address it and make it
Speaker 2: better instead of our only options being to just injure
Speaker 2: or walk away. And so I just was like, hm,
Speaker 2: maybe I actually need to address problems with my friends.
Speaker 2: And that was another way where I compartmentalize intimacy, right,
Speaker 2: because I knew in my romantic partnerships that I was
Speaker 2: going to have to address problems and work through issues
Speaker 2: and you're about marriage is hard, you're going to have to,
Speaker 2: you know, work through all these problems together, and not
Speaker 2: realizing that part of intimacy is conflict and so friendship
Speaker 2: is also going to require the same set of skills.
Speaker 2: And the other thing that I realized was that I
Speaker 2: was conflicating conflict with combat, when in fact, conflict could
Speaker 2: look like reconciliation. And so it was me learning to
Speaker 2: do things like frame the conversation as an act of love,
Speaker 2: like Hey, I want to talk about this because you're
Speaker 2: so important to me, you know, and I know you're
Speaker 2: having kids and I'm so excited for you, and you know,
Speaker 2: I have some anxieties about whether we're going to stay close,
Speaker 2: so I figured I would bring it up so we
Speaker 2: could still find a way to stay close through this
Speaker 2: big life change of ours. And then using eye statements
Speaker 2: like yeah, I've been feeling a little nervous about how
Speaker 2: this could impact their closeness, and then perspective taking, which
Speaker 2: looks like the mutuality of as you share your feelings,
Speaker 2: how do you feel? What are you thinking, and then
Speaker 2: asking for what you need in the future, like you know,
Speaker 2: maybe i'd still like to see you like once a
Speaker 2: month or twice a month, how would that work out
Speaker 2: for you? And so I think healthy conflict looks like
Speaker 2: wading into the ambivalence, like a part of me is
Speaker 2: afraid too. We actually feel some of the same things
Speaker 2: as this big change or this issue in our friendship
Speaker 2: has come up.
Speaker 1: I really resonate with the frame the conversation as an
Speaker 1: affirmation of love. I'm thinking about one of my closest friends,
Speaker 1: and you know, at times he's like, can't we just
Speaker 1: let this go? Shunks? Shunks is like nicknames among my friends.
Speaker 1: He's like, can't we just why do we have to
Speaker 1: discuss these things? You know, can't we just let it?
Speaker 1: And I told him, I was like, hey, you do
Speaker 1: realize that I don't put in this effort with everyone, right,
Speaker 1: It's because I care so much about you and our
Speaker 1: communication and our lifelong friendship that I do try to
Speaker 1: conflict resolve and problem solve and obviously like there's a
Speaker 1: happy medium. But it was I think that was really
Speaker 1: affirming for him. I feel like he it changed the
Speaker 1: whole spin on why it was that I was initiating
Speaker 1: these kinds of uncomfortable conversations.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and I think as a professor I really tried
Speaker 2: to be intentional about making my students feel safe, and
Speaker 2: what comes out of that is they demand so much
Speaker 2: more of me. And I remember hearing from this psychologist
Speaker 2: who studies narcissists. She said, the most toxic person is
Speaker 2: the least confronted. And so if your friends are coming
Speaker 2: up to you to address an issue, maybe it's not
Speaker 2: a sign that you're a crappy friend. Maybe it's a
Speaker 2: sign that they feel safe enough to actually bring up
Speaker 2: a problem instead of trying to ignore it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a really excellent way of seeing it. You
Speaker 1: wouldn't invest the time in someone that you didn't You
Speaker 1: wouldn't feel vulnerable enough to bring this up with someone
Speaker 1: that you didn't in this deep way trust exactly. And
Speaker 1: so it's actually an ode to the quality of the
Speaker 1: friendship that you're having these conversations. There are some cases,
Speaker 1: of course, where, for whatever reason transitions in life the
Speaker 1: nature of the relationship, you actually feel it's important to
Speaker 1: break up with a friend, and that can be extremely uncomfortable.
Speaker 1: What do you recommend that people do in a situation
Speaker 1: like that where they just realize this friendship just isn't
Speaker 1: serving me anymore, It's not good for either of us,
Speaker 1: you know, whatever the reason is, it feels it's such
Speaker 1: a hard space Marsa, because there's an expectation in society
Speaker 1: that we break up with significant others. I mean, that's
Speaker 1: just like part of the cultural narrative that happens. But
Speaker 1: the idea of breaking up with a friend just feels
Speaker 1: almost a bit foreign and a little taboo. And yeah,
Speaker 1: help me make sense of this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So, I think it depends on whether the other
Speaker 2: person is still invested in you or not. If it
Speaker 2: seems mutual and the other person's pulling away, you're pulling away,
Speaker 2: then I think it's fine to just kind of pull
Speaker 2: away and let it be. But if the other person
Speaker 2: continues to seem invested in a friendship with you and
Speaker 2: you're no longer invested in a friendship with them, the
Speaker 2: kindest thing to do is to tell them, because if
Speaker 2: you don't tell them, you trigger something called ambiguous loss,
Speaker 2: which is when we have a lot of trouble processing
Speaker 2: our grief because we don't have any closure, and it's
Speaker 2: almost like they're gonna end up grieving twice because you
Speaker 2: weren't able to muster up the courage to have a conversation,
Speaker 2: so it's quite meaning, but it doesn't feel mean. That's
Speaker 2: the thing I think with something like ghosting, there's such
Speaker 2: emotional incongruence between the experience of being the ghoster and
Speaker 2: receiving the ghosting, Like it's like, oh, I just kind
Speaker 2: of forgot about it, but the other person is like,
Speaker 2: it's keeping them up at night and they're ruminating on it.
Speaker 2: So I think it's really important to remember that in congruence,
Speaker 2: because if we don't, we might be like, well, it's
Speaker 2: no sweat for me. So I think it's fine, right,
Speaker 2: And then they are just gonna make up all types
Speaker 2: of stories because our brain has this negativity bias, the
Speaker 2: stories are probably gonna be a lot meaner than what
Speaker 2: you're going to tell them. So yeah, I suggest you know,
Speaker 2: having a conversation about it. It's not cruel. You're talking
Speaker 2: about yourself and your own experience and how your needs
Speaker 2: have changed. And I hope that this conversation happens after
Speaker 2: you've tried to address the problem with them and given
Speaker 2: them a chance to repair it, and it hasn't necessarily
Speaker 2: worked unless it's a big betrayal. Of course, you know,
Speaker 2: if the big betrayal then it might be one thing
Speaker 2: that really has broken the friendship. But if it's something
Speaker 2: like smaller on going, like sometimes I feel like in
Speaker 2: our conversations, you don't give space to like hear about me,
Speaker 2: and we're mostly focused on you. Like I hope that
Speaker 2: you have that conversation before deciding to end the friendship,
Speaker 2: but you know, if it's coming to a point where
Speaker 2: you're just like, you know, sometimes I feel like we
Speaker 2: have really incompatible communication styles and that leaves me leaving
Speaker 2: our interactions feeling like kind of sad. And that's why
Speaker 2: I'm feeling like this friendship isn't necessarily working out for
Speaker 2: us anymore. Maybe you are trying to engage with me
Speaker 2: in a certain way, but I just haven't been reading
Speaker 2: it that way, and so that's why this friendship really
Speaker 2: hasn't felt like it's working for me, you know, adding
Speaker 2: like I just wanted to make sure I was being
Speaker 2: upfront and transparent with you moving forward something like that.
Speaker 2: It sounds cruel, but it's a lot less cruel than
Speaker 2: not giving someone any closure.
Speaker 1: Yeah, one piece of advice I took away from your
Speaker 1: book is that when a friendship ends for whatever reason,
Speaker 1: we really need to give ourselves the space to grief
Speaker 1: because you talk about the fact that in our society,
Speaker 1: pain associated with the loss of friendship is devalued.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's this term called disenfranchised grief, which is like,
Speaker 2: when society doesn't legitimize our loss, we can't legitimize it
Speaker 2: ourselves internally, and we might invalidate our own grief process.
Speaker 2: And there's one thing you should know about grief, it's
Speaker 2: that you can't just suppress it and push it away.
Speaker 2: That you actually have to feel the grief for it
Speaker 2: to be released from you. And so that's why I
Speaker 2: think a lot of people that lose really close friends
Speaker 2: feel very isolated, feel very alienated, can feel preoccupied that
Speaker 2: the loss for such a long period of time because
Speaker 2: they feel like their loss is valid and their loss
Speaker 2: is significant, while their body's telling them the opposite message
Speaker 2: that this is a big loss for you, that you
Speaker 2: have to feel this and that you have to acknowledge it.
Speaker 2: And so that's one of the reasons why some people
Speaker 2: are like, friendship breakups hurt even more than divorce or
Speaker 2: romantic relationship breakup.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I've been reading a lot of writing on this
Speaker 1: topic recently, and there are many many people who have
Speaker 1: said that their friendship's ending exactly as you say. We're
Speaker 1: far more painful than any romantic relationship that came to
Speaker 1: an end. So I'm at least grateful that you're giving
Speaker 1: us strategies for trying to end the friendships with a
Speaker 1: bit more closure to the extent that can help us
Speaker 1: heal or help the other person heal. How has working
Speaker 1: in this space changed the way that you think about
Speaker 1: the friends in your life, Like, is there any anecdote
Speaker 1: that comes to mind in which you think, ooh. As
Speaker 1: a result of exploring this research for years, I'm now
Speaker 1: engage with my friends differently.
Speaker 2: So I aspire to hold friendship at the same regard
Speaker 2: as I do romantic relationships, especially for my closest friends
Speaker 2: in my life. So I had a friend she was
Speaker 2: coming back from Mexico and arriving back from the airport
Speaker 2: at like twelve thirty am, and I was contemplating whether
Speaker 2: I wanted to pick her up, and I was like,
Speaker 2: I'm so tired, I'm in bed by twelve midnight. And
Speaker 2: I asked myself would I offer to pick up my
Speaker 2: romantic partner? And I was like, yeah, absolutely, Like I
Speaker 2: would stay up to pick up my romantic partner, and
Speaker 2: so then I decided that I would go offer to
Speaker 2: pick her up from the airport too, and I did,
Speaker 2: and I realized this is the work.
Speaker 1: And what was your friend's reaction to that? Like, what
Speaker 1: impact do you think that had on your friendship?
Speaker 2: Oh, my gosh, I think it really changed our friendship.
Speaker 2: I think she realized that I was really invested in
Speaker 2: the friendship. Once she realized I was invested, she started
Speaker 2: to invest. Like all my plants died because it got
Speaker 2: too cold, and she noticed that, and she just came
Speaker 2: over and bought a plant for me. And then since
Speaker 2: then we've just been like hanging out a lot more often,
Speaker 2: because I think there's this freedom that comes from knowing
Speaker 2: this person loves you and is intentionally trying to invest
Speaker 2: in you that allows each of us to engage in
Speaker 2: a lot more of the risky behaviors that promote intimacy.
Speaker 1: I'd love to enter conversation with a piece of research
Speaker 1: that you talk about in your book, and it's about
Speaker 1: how we tend to have the wrong idea about what
Speaker 1: people value in us as friends. Yeah, and understanding this
Speaker 1: can actually be quite empowering. Can you tell us more Yeah.
Speaker 2: So this is a study where people were asked to
Speaker 2: rate the most important traits in a friend and I
Speaker 2: think before studying friendship, I thought that trait was being
Speaker 2: charismatic or entertaining or funny, that it was about kind
Speaker 2: of like putting on a show to get people to
Speaker 2: like you. But the number one trait people valued was
Speaker 2: this concept ego support, which is someone making you feel
Speaker 2: like you matter and someone making you feel really valued
Speaker 2: and really loved. And I think this message is really
Speaker 2: hopeful because some people think that if I want to
Speaker 2: make friends, I have to change fundamentally who I am.
Speaker 2: And it's not about who you are. Making friends is
Speaker 2: about being loving toward other people.
Speaker 1: Hey, thanks so much for listening to this season of
Speaker 1: A Slight Change of Plans. I really hope you found
Speaker 1: these conversations helpful. The conversation you just heard actually inspired
Speaker 1: me to reach out to my best friend from childhood, Christine.
Speaker 1: I hadn't talked to her in over twenty years. It
Speaker 1: was a magical reconnection. If something you've heard on the
Speaker 1: show has changed the way you approach your life, I'd
Speaker 1: love to hear from you on Instagram at doctor Maya
Speaker 1: Shunker you can also check this account for a sneak
Speaker 1: peek of our coming season. We'll be back in your
Speaker 1: feeds in no time in late May. I'll see you then.
Speaker 1: A Slight Change of Plans is created, written, and executive
Speaker 1: produced by me Maya Shunker. The Slight Change family includes
Speaker 1: our showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor Kate Parkinson Morgan,
Speaker 1: our sound engineer Andrew Vastola, and our associate producer Sarah McCrae.
Speaker 1: Louis Scara wrote our delightful theme song, and Ginger Smith
Speaker 1: helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of Plans is
Speaker 1: a production of Pushkin Industry, so big thanks to everyone there,
Speaker 1: and of course a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee.
Speaker 1: You can follow a Slight Change of Plans on Instagram
Speaker 1: at doctor Maya Schunker.
Speaker 2: Okay, am I sounding like I have a little bit
Speaker 2: of a lag? Yeah, sounding like you have a little
Speaker 2: bit of a life. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, you have
Speaker 2: a lag? Okay it worked? Hello? Hi?
Speaker 1: Oh that I think that's a lot better. Can you
Speaker 1: just tell me what you eat for breakfast?
Speaker 2: Yes, I had some fruits, some grapes, some cauliflower toast.
Speaker 2: Then for lunch I had some rice and some fish
Speaker 2: and some salad with olives and pickles. How am I sounding.
Speaker 1: You're sounding like you're an extremely healthy person. Pulliflower bread.
Speaker 1: What is cauliflower bread? M.