1 00:00:14,956 --> 00:00:15,396 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:30,516 --> 00:00:31,876 Speaker 2: You know, I looked around at my friends and I 3 00:00:31,916 --> 00:00:34,076 Speaker 2: was like, well, why doesn't this love matter? Why have 4 00:00:34,156 --> 00:00:37,236 Speaker 2: I been told that this love doesn't count? It called 5 00:00:37,236 --> 00:00:39,596 Speaker 2: into the question some of the beliefs that I had 6 00:00:39,716 --> 00:00:43,356 Speaker 2: about romantic versus platonic love. I thought that those messages 7 00:00:43,356 --> 00:00:45,676 Speaker 2: were actively harming me, and that they might be harming 8 00:00:45,796 --> 00:00:47,316 Speaker 2: other people too. 9 00:00:47,556 --> 00:00:51,916 Speaker 1: That's doctor Marissa Franco, a psychologist and an expert on friendship. 10 00:00:52,756 --> 00:00:56,036 Speaker 1: Society often teaches us that friendship is secondary to other 11 00:00:56,076 --> 00:01:01,076 Speaker 1: relationships like family or romantic partners, and Marissa wants to 12 00:01:01,196 --> 00:01:05,676 Speaker 1: change that. In our conversation, she shares some helpful strategies 13 00:01:05,716 --> 00:01:09,636 Speaker 1: to enrich the quality of our friendships, including a concept 14 00:01:09,716 --> 00:01:11,716 Speaker 1: known as mutuality. 15 00:01:11,916 --> 00:01:14,196 Speaker 2: Mutuality is different from a lot of the ways that 16 00:01:14,236 --> 00:01:16,716 Speaker 2: we think about friendship in terms of like we might 17 00:01:16,716 --> 00:01:18,996 Speaker 2: think of it as reciprocity, like I reach out this time, 18 00:01:18,996 --> 00:01:21,876 Speaker 2: you should reach out the next time. But mutuality is 19 00:01:21,996 --> 00:01:26,396 Speaker 2: taking a step back to look at the broader dynamics 20 00:01:26,596 --> 00:01:29,836 Speaker 2: that are going on for each of us and figuring 21 00:01:29,916 --> 00:01:34,076 Speaker 2: out whose needs make sense to prioritize in this given situation. 22 00:01:37,676 --> 00:01:41,876 Speaker 1: On today's episode, we explore the science of friendship. Why 23 00:01:41,916 --> 00:01:44,356 Speaker 1: it matters more than we might think, and what we 24 00:01:44,396 --> 00:01:46,676 Speaker 1: can do to make new friends and keep the ones 25 00:01:46,716 --> 00:01:55,716 Speaker 1: we have. I'm Maya Shunker, and this is a slight 26 00:01:55,836 --> 00:01:58,436 Speaker 1: change of plans, a show about who we are and 27 00:01:58,476 --> 00:02:07,676 Speaker 1: who we become in the face of a big change. 28 00:02:14,436 --> 00:02:17,356 Speaker 1: Marisa is the author of the book Platonic, How the 29 00:02:17,396 --> 00:02:20,676 Speaker 1: Science of Attachment can help You Make and keep Friends. 30 00:02:21,236 --> 00:02:24,236 Speaker 1: She realized just how important friendship was to her when 31 00:02:24,276 --> 00:02:27,716 Speaker 1: she was in her early twenties and navigating a painful breakup. 32 00:02:28,436 --> 00:02:30,796 Speaker 2: I think I just felt that if I couldn't maintain 33 00:02:30,876 --> 00:02:34,916 Speaker 2: this romantic relationship, then I wasn't lovable. I didn't have 34 00:02:34,996 --> 00:02:38,196 Speaker 2: any love in my life, and I was feeling so miserable. 35 00:02:38,236 --> 00:02:41,516 Speaker 2: I think in part because of those beliefs and to heal, 36 00:02:41,676 --> 00:02:44,276 Speaker 2: I ended up asking my friend HEATHERN, what if we 37 00:02:44,316 --> 00:02:47,236 Speaker 2: start this wellness group. We can meet up, practice wellness, 38 00:02:47,476 --> 00:02:51,716 Speaker 2: cook do yoga, go on walks, have dinner. And I 39 00:02:51,716 --> 00:02:54,516 Speaker 2: thought that would really help me heal my grief. And 40 00:02:55,196 --> 00:02:57,716 Speaker 2: it did. Like meeting up with these friends every week 41 00:02:58,036 --> 00:03:01,636 Speaker 2: totally healed me. It wasn't because we were meditating or doing yoga, 42 00:03:01,676 --> 00:03:03,876 Speaker 2: it was just being in community with people that I 43 00:03:03,956 --> 00:03:07,796 Speaker 2: loved that loved me every week. And I think another 44 00:03:07,876 --> 00:03:10,556 Speaker 2: reason why that group really healed me is that it 45 00:03:10,676 --> 00:03:13,836 Speaker 2: called into question some of the beliefs that I had 46 00:03:13,876 --> 00:03:16,116 Speaker 2: that had caused me to take this break up so hard, 47 00:03:16,716 --> 00:03:19,316 Speaker 2: which was here I was thinking I didn't have love 48 00:03:19,356 --> 00:03:21,116 Speaker 2: in my life when I had evidence of just how 49 00:03:21,156 --> 00:03:23,716 Speaker 2: loved I was every week, Like I could no longer 50 00:03:24,276 --> 00:03:27,276 Speaker 2: engage in that lie that I didn't have love. You know, 51 00:03:27,316 --> 00:03:29,316 Speaker 2: I felt like, well, I don't think this is just me. 52 00:03:29,796 --> 00:03:33,716 Speaker 2: I think this really reflects something larger in our culture 53 00:03:34,076 --> 00:03:37,916 Speaker 2: that's really harming and hurting us all, and so understanding 54 00:03:37,956 --> 00:03:40,316 Speaker 2: it not just as my own lived experience, but as 55 00:03:40,356 --> 00:03:43,996 Speaker 2: a larger societal cultural problem or issue that we had 56 00:03:44,636 --> 00:03:47,596 Speaker 2: is really what drove me to want to write Platonic. Yeah. 57 00:03:47,676 --> 00:03:49,596 Speaker 1: I mean, this is one of the reasons I was 58 00:03:49,636 --> 00:03:51,996 Speaker 1: obsessed with having you on a slight Change of Plans 59 00:03:52,076 --> 00:03:54,716 Speaker 1: is because I think your work does speak to this 60 00:03:54,836 --> 00:03:59,036 Speaker 1: larger cultural issue, which is that we deprioritize friendship to 61 00:03:59,156 --> 00:04:02,436 Speaker 1: a third rate relationship. And I was thinking back to 62 00:04:03,396 --> 00:04:05,916 Speaker 1: my past and the views that I had, and I 63 00:04:05,996 --> 00:04:10,796 Speaker 1: absolutely grew up thinking that romantic relationships sit at the 64 00:04:10,836 --> 00:04:13,996 Speaker 1: top of the relationship hierarchy, and that if you don't 65 00:04:13,996 --> 00:04:17,276 Speaker 1: have that, it really doesn't matter how many friends you 66 00:04:17,316 --> 00:04:19,396 Speaker 1: have or how high quality those friendships are. 67 00:04:19,836 --> 00:04:23,276 Speaker 2: Exactly yep. I had definitely felt the same way. And 68 00:04:23,756 --> 00:04:25,556 Speaker 2: you know, I guess we even hear things like you 69 00:04:25,596 --> 00:04:28,596 Speaker 2: need one person to complete you, which really made me 70 00:04:28,636 --> 00:04:31,036 Speaker 2: feel like I didn't have a sense of self without 71 00:04:31,596 --> 00:04:34,796 Speaker 2: having a romantic partner. And also like, why do we 72 00:04:34,916 --> 00:04:38,716 Speaker 2: think that one template fits for everybody? I think that 73 00:04:38,956 --> 00:04:42,236 Speaker 2: when we have a cultural narrative that's so crushing, it 74 00:04:42,236 --> 00:04:45,356 Speaker 2: can get hard for people to actually discern, like what 75 00:04:45,396 --> 00:04:47,316 Speaker 2: do I actually want in my life? What's actually best 76 00:04:47,356 --> 00:04:50,076 Speaker 2: for me? Like would I prefer a life where I 77 00:04:50,116 --> 00:04:53,916 Speaker 2: have a large network of friends and am single. But yeah, 78 00:04:53,956 --> 00:04:57,076 Speaker 2: when your society teaches you that if you make that choice, 79 00:04:57,116 --> 00:04:59,676 Speaker 2: you're less of a person, people aren't as free to 80 00:04:59,716 --> 00:05:01,836 Speaker 2: actually discern what is the life that I actually want 81 00:05:01,876 --> 00:05:02,476 Speaker 2: for myself. 82 00:05:03,956 --> 00:05:05,956 Speaker 1: You know, the argument you make in your book is 83 00:05:05,956 --> 00:05:10,036 Speaker 1: that we need to reclaim friendship and to the status 84 00:05:10,036 --> 00:05:12,796 Speaker 1: that it deserves. So let's start there. I read in 85 00:05:12,796 --> 00:05:16,676 Speaker 1: your book that there's a very interesting connection that exists 86 00:05:16,676 --> 00:05:20,316 Speaker 1: between friendship and self identity, and that's a connection I'd 87 00:05:20,316 --> 00:05:22,316 Speaker 1: never really thought about before, So can you tell us 88 00:05:22,356 --> 00:05:23,756 Speaker 1: a bit more about this connection. 89 00:05:24,476 --> 00:05:27,516 Speaker 2: So I think each person that we interact with is 90 00:05:27,556 --> 00:05:30,436 Speaker 2: an advertisement for the kaleidoscope of ways in which we 91 00:05:30,476 --> 00:05:33,476 Speaker 2: can live and the ways that people show up in 92 00:05:33,516 --> 00:05:35,836 Speaker 2: the world, or how we learn to show up in 93 00:05:35,876 --> 00:05:39,436 Speaker 2: the world too, Like that learning happens through being able 94 00:05:39,476 --> 00:05:41,556 Speaker 2: to see a friend engage at a certain hobby or 95 00:05:41,556 --> 00:05:43,556 Speaker 2: interest and you're like, maybe I would like that hobby 96 00:05:43,636 --> 00:05:45,676 Speaker 2: or interests. Like it's that exposure that we get through 97 00:05:45,676 --> 00:05:48,436 Speaker 2: each friend. And so in that way, it's like each 98 00:05:48,796 --> 00:05:50,876 Speaker 2: person that we interact with can bring out a new 99 00:05:50,916 --> 00:05:53,436 Speaker 2: and different side of our identity. And so when we're 100 00:05:53,436 --> 00:05:56,996 Speaker 2: only interacting with one person, it's like, well, a spouse, 101 00:05:56,996 --> 00:05:59,236 Speaker 2: which we've been told should be, you know, the only 102 00:05:59,276 --> 00:06:01,756 Speaker 2: relationship we need to feel complete. Sometimes it's like we 103 00:06:01,796 --> 00:06:04,236 Speaker 2: only have one experience of ourself and all of the 104 00:06:04,276 --> 00:06:07,076 Speaker 2: parts of ourselves that maybe aren't aligned with what our 105 00:06:07,116 --> 00:06:10,156 Speaker 2: spouse likes, not because you're incompact with your spouse, but 106 00:06:10,236 --> 00:06:13,596 Speaker 2: just because you're different people with different hobbies and different interests. 107 00:06:13,996 --> 00:06:16,596 Speaker 2: Those parts of you might not come out when you're 108 00:06:16,596 --> 00:06:19,476 Speaker 2: only interacting with them. And so it requires us to 109 00:06:19,556 --> 00:06:23,956 Speaker 2: be in community with different types of people, to experience 110 00:06:23,996 --> 00:06:26,916 Speaker 2: the different sides of ourselves, and to have our identities 111 00:06:27,716 --> 00:06:30,556 Speaker 2: fan out. And I think that this was a sense, 112 00:06:30,556 --> 00:06:32,916 Speaker 2: at least I got a sense in the pandemic when 113 00:06:32,916 --> 00:06:36,276 Speaker 2: I was living with a partner and still feeling like 114 00:06:36,436 --> 00:06:40,276 Speaker 2: unease or still feeling like it's a weird sort of 115 00:06:40,876 --> 00:06:43,396 Speaker 2: malaise when you're just like, I don't know, my identity 116 00:06:43,436 --> 00:06:45,796 Speaker 2: is kind of scrunching inward, like I would hang out 117 00:06:45,836 --> 00:06:48,316 Speaker 2: with my friends and feel like I'm just filling with life. 118 00:06:48,436 --> 00:06:51,076 Speaker 2: I don't know, I just have different emotions that tend 119 00:06:51,076 --> 00:06:53,396 Speaker 2: to come up around different people. And so I was 120 00:06:53,436 --> 00:06:57,516 Speaker 2: experiencing my palette of emotions more greatly. And I think 121 00:06:57,556 --> 00:06:59,436 Speaker 2: that's really important, because I think there's a lot of 122 00:06:59,436 --> 00:07:02,156 Speaker 2: feeling gray and feeling bleak or feeling kind of numb, 123 00:07:02,236 --> 00:07:04,716 Speaker 2: and so it almost made me feel more alive to 124 00:07:04,716 --> 00:07:07,356 Speaker 2: feel like, Oh, with this friend, I'm like laughing and 125 00:07:07,876 --> 00:07:11,036 Speaker 2: we're joking about this thing, and we're excited about this 126 00:07:11,116 --> 00:07:13,396 Speaker 2: other thing. And that might have been part of why 127 00:07:13,396 --> 00:07:15,956 Speaker 2: they just made me feel like more expansive and more 128 00:07:16,036 --> 00:07:18,436 Speaker 2: live when I interacted with them. 129 00:07:18,556 --> 00:07:21,676 Speaker 1: Marissa, I'm curious. Is there research showing that there's a 130 00:07:21,716 --> 00:07:26,116 Speaker 1: strong connection between friendship and our physical and mental health. 131 00:07:26,556 --> 00:07:29,076 Speaker 2: Yeah. So there's a study that found that people that 132 00:07:29,156 --> 00:07:31,876 Speaker 2: were exposed to the virus that causes the common cold, 133 00:07:31,876 --> 00:07:35,116 Speaker 2: for example, were less likely to actually contract the common 134 00:07:35,156 --> 00:07:37,876 Speaker 2: cold when they had a diversity of support, when they 135 00:07:37,876 --> 00:07:40,436 Speaker 2: weren't just relying on a spouse, but relying on different 136 00:07:40,516 --> 00:07:43,796 Speaker 2: people for support in their lives. And there's other research 137 00:07:43,836 --> 00:07:46,316 Speaker 2: that just links having a diversity of support to your 138 00:07:46,396 --> 00:07:48,756 Speaker 2: general sense of well being overall. 139 00:07:49,836 --> 00:07:53,676 Speaker 1: I love the research Marisa that shows that healthy, strong 140 00:07:53,716 --> 00:07:57,556 Speaker 1: friendships are associated with more resilience and our other relationships. 141 00:07:57,596 --> 00:07:59,276 Speaker 1: Do you mind sharing a bit more about that. 142 00:07:59,916 --> 00:08:01,756 Speaker 2: Yeah, I love this research too, because I think it's 143 00:08:01,796 --> 00:08:05,436 Speaker 2: unfortunate that we sometimes perceive our romantic relationships and our 144 00:08:05,436 --> 00:08:08,476 Speaker 2: friendships as antagonistic, like, oh, you're hanging out with your friends, 145 00:08:08,516 --> 00:08:10,716 Speaker 2: you're not hanging out out with me, instead of well, 146 00:08:10,756 --> 00:08:12,196 Speaker 2: you're hanging out with your friends. That's great. Now we 147 00:08:12,236 --> 00:08:15,036 Speaker 2: can have more quality connection when you come back, definitely, 148 00:08:15,076 --> 00:08:18,076 Speaker 2: which is the truth, because you know, research finds that, 149 00:08:18,196 --> 00:08:19,996 Speaker 2: for example, if I make a friend, not only am 150 00:08:20,036 --> 00:08:23,556 Speaker 2: I less depressed, but my romantic partner is also likely 151 00:08:23,596 --> 00:08:26,636 Speaker 2: to be less depressed. So what can improve when partner's 152 00:08:26,636 --> 00:08:29,396 Speaker 2: mental health will likely improve the other partner's mental health. 153 00:08:29,596 --> 00:08:31,756 Speaker 2: And that's what we see when people make friends. There's 154 00:08:31,756 --> 00:08:33,916 Speaker 2: research that finds that when spouses are in a state 155 00:08:33,956 --> 00:08:38,116 Speaker 2: of conflict, it negatively impacts their release of the stress 156 00:08:38,116 --> 00:08:41,436 Speaker 2: hormone cortisol, but not when they have that quality connection 157 00:08:41,716 --> 00:08:45,116 Speaker 2: outside of the marriage as well. And so it's just like, 158 00:08:45,396 --> 00:08:47,516 Speaker 2: if you're just relying on your spouse, whatever happens in 159 00:08:47,556 --> 00:08:50,636 Speaker 2: that relationship is going to be so deterministic for how 160 00:08:50,636 --> 00:08:53,916 Speaker 2: you're doing overall. But if you have quality connection outside 161 00:08:53,956 --> 00:08:57,036 Speaker 2: of the marriage, it's like you have a buffer, you know, 162 00:08:57,116 --> 00:08:59,036 Speaker 2: you kind of have a shield. Like if things aren't 163 00:08:59,116 --> 00:09:03,516 Speaker 2: going well, that doesn't mean that you're completely sunk internally 164 00:09:03,716 --> 00:09:06,556 Speaker 2: because you can rely on these outside resources as a 165 00:09:06,596 --> 00:09:07,156 Speaker 2: pick me up. 166 00:09:08,116 --> 00:09:12,316 Speaker 1: Okay, so Marisa, you've convinced us that friendship is important, right, 167 00:09:12,756 --> 00:09:15,556 Speaker 1: is something that we should all be working to invest in. 168 00:09:16,156 --> 00:09:18,556 Speaker 1: I'm wondering if we can get tactical at this stage 169 00:09:18,636 --> 00:09:21,316 Speaker 1: and if we can learn from you how we can 170 00:09:21,356 --> 00:09:24,156 Speaker 1: do a better job of making friends in adulthood. 171 00:09:24,676 --> 00:09:26,516 Speaker 2: I think an issue that we have is that we 172 00:09:26,516 --> 00:09:30,156 Speaker 2: think friendship will happen in adulthood like it did in childhood, 173 00:09:30,236 --> 00:09:33,156 Speaker 2: which means we won't have to try and be intentional. 174 00:09:33,316 --> 00:09:36,636 Speaker 2: And there's a sociologist, Rebecca Adams, and she says, when 175 00:09:36,676 --> 00:09:42,036 Speaker 2: we have repeated, unplanned interaction and shared vulnerability, that's when 176 00:09:42,076 --> 00:09:45,316 Speaker 2: friendships happen more organically in your adult life. It's like, 177 00:09:45,356 --> 00:09:47,316 Speaker 2: do you see people in a way that's repeated over 178 00:09:47,356 --> 00:09:50,036 Speaker 2: time even though it's not planned, like work, for example, 179 00:09:50,756 --> 00:09:53,636 Speaker 2: and do you have your guard down? And at work, 180 00:09:53,676 --> 00:09:55,396 Speaker 2: I don't know if people have their guard downs, like 181 00:09:55,476 --> 00:09:57,436 Speaker 2: they tend to not be as vulnerable as they might 182 00:09:57,476 --> 00:10:00,996 Speaker 2: be outside of the workplace. So basically what that means 183 00:10:01,116 --> 00:10:04,476 Speaker 2: is like as adults, we don't have that same environment 184 00:10:04,516 --> 00:10:07,476 Speaker 2: we had as kids to just rely on friendship happening. 185 00:10:08,036 --> 00:10:11,356 Speaker 2: We can't assume that it happens organically anymore like we're 186 00:10:11,396 --> 00:10:13,276 Speaker 2: going to have to try. And in fact, one study 187 00:10:13,316 --> 00:10:18,116 Speaker 2: found that people that thought friendship happened without effort were 188 00:10:18,116 --> 00:10:20,756 Speaker 2: more lonely over time, whereas those that saw it is 189 00:10:20,796 --> 00:10:23,236 Speaker 2: happening based on effort, We're less lonely over time, and 190 00:10:23,236 --> 00:10:25,676 Speaker 2: they're also more likely to actually make that effort so 191 00:10:25,916 --> 00:10:28,316 Speaker 2: I think, you know, by showing up at a place 192 00:10:28,356 --> 00:10:31,356 Speaker 2: of worship or a hobby or interest group. So you know, 193 00:10:31,436 --> 00:10:35,756 Speaker 2: when we understand it as not happening organically, we understand that, Okay, 194 00:10:35,796 --> 00:10:38,596 Speaker 2: that means I'm going to have to make a choice 195 00:10:38,756 --> 00:10:41,836 Speaker 2: to do something in my life to find friends. 196 00:10:43,196 --> 00:10:45,516 Speaker 1: Can you tell us a bit more about why repeated 197 00:10:45,556 --> 00:10:49,356 Speaker 1: interactions are so important when it comes to facilitating friendship. 198 00:10:49,996 --> 00:10:53,836 Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's because of something called the mirror exposure effect, 199 00:10:54,196 --> 00:10:57,636 Speaker 2: which the mere exposure effect describes our tendency to like 200 00:10:57,716 --> 00:11:00,716 Speaker 2: things that are familiar and for people to like us 201 00:11:00,756 --> 00:11:03,796 Speaker 2: the more that we become familiar. If you continue to 202 00:11:03,796 --> 00:11:05,436 Speaker 2: be exposed to someone, they don't harm you, then you 203 00:11:05,476 --> 00:11:08,196 Speaker 2: feel trust with them. And so I think when we 204 00:11:08,276 --> 00:11:12,756 Speaker 2: have that repeated interaction, mere exposure increases we like them more, 205 00:11:12,916 --> 00:11:15,476 Speaker 2: they like us more. And if we do want to 206 00:11:15,556 --> 00:11:19,596 Speaker 2: initiate an interaction and say something like hey, I've really 207 00:11:19,676 --> 00:11:22,436 Speaker 2: enjoyed talking to you, would love to connect further, you 208 00:11:22,476 --> 00:11:26,116 Speaker 2: open to exchanging contact information. We're just more likely to 209 00:11:26,156 --> 00:11:29,876 Speaker 2: be successful versus when we've seen someone once, maybe at 210 00:11:29,876 --> 00:11:31,956 Speaker 2: like a lecture at a bar, and then we ask 211 00:11:32,036 --> 00:11:33,076 Speaker 2: them to hang out. 212 00:11:33,636 --> 00:11:37,036 Speaker 1: You know, one reason we fear intitiating friendship is that, 213 00:11:37,436 --> 00:11:40,276 Speaker 1: of course most of us are afraid of rejection. And 214 00:11:40,316 --> 00:11:43,836 Speaker 1: so what's your advice to us to help us overcome 215 00:11:43,876 --> 00:11:44,916 Speaker 1: this kind of anxiety. 216 00:11:45,396 --> 00:11:48,356 Speaker 2: Well, the research finds that people like you more than 217 00:11:48,396 --> 00:11:49,396 Speaker 2: you think they do. 218 00:11:49,516 --> 00:11:52,276 Speaker 1: Me specifically right now, I'm just kidding. 219 00:11:52,676 --> 00:11:56,676 Speaker 2: Yeah, you specifically the rest of us were it's gonna 220 00:11:56,676 --> 00:12:00,996 Speaker 2: be rough out there that basically, when strangers interact, they 221 00:12:01,276 --> 00:12:04,076 Speaker 2: then underestimate how like they are by the other person. 222 00:12:04,476 --> 00:12:06,756 Speaker 2: And the more self critical you are, the more pronounced 223 00:12:06,876 --> 00:12:10,676 Speaker 2: this underestimation is. And so generally people like us more 224 00:12:10,756 --> 00:12:13,196 Speaker 2: than we might think. Like our brain is kind of 225 00:12:13,236 --> 00:12:17,556 Speaker 2: programmed with this negativity bias where we register negative information 226 00:12:17,596 --> 00:12:19,836 Speaker 2: more than positive, which means our predictions as to how 227 00:12:19,836 --> 00:12:22,636 Speaker 2: we're coming off are often more cynical than the actual truth. 228 00:12:23,356 --> 00:12:26,156 Speaker 2: So people are less likely to reject you than you think. 229 00:12:26,196 --> 00:12:29,116 Speaker 2: And I also tell people to assume people like them, 230 00:12:29,316 --> 00:12:33,116 Speaker 2: because the research finds that when people are told, you know, 231 00:12:33,196 --> 00:12:37,156 Speaker 2: based on your personality profile, you will be liked. And 232 00:12:37,236 --> 00:12:40,036 Speaker 2: this is a lie from the researchers, just deceiving people, 233 00:12:40,116 --> 00:12:42,156 Speaker 2: but they actually go out into a group and they 234 00:12:42,196 --> 00:12:45,636 Speaker 2: become warmer open and friendlier, and so it becomes a 235 00:12:45,676 --> 00:12:48,636 Speaker 2: sort of self fulfilling prophecy. Whereas we know that people 236 00:12:48,676 --> 00:12:52,356 Speaker 2: are who are more rejection sensitive, who tend to see 237 00:12:52,396 --> 00:12:55,396 Speaker 2: rejection when it's not there, like, oh, my friend didn't 238 00:12:55,436 --> 00:12:58,356 Speaker 2: text me back, or my friend came to this show 239 00:12:58,396 --> 00:13:00,276 Speaker 2: and they didn't sit right next to me, Does that 240 00:13:00,316 --> 00:13:03,196 Speaker 2: mean they don't like me? They actually tend to reject people. 241 00:13:03,356 --> 00:13:07,116 Speaker 2: They become more cold, they become more withdrawn, and then 242 00:13:07,276 --> 00:13:09,996 Speaker 2: people reject them back after you know they've been rejected. 243 00:13:10,676 --> 00:13:13,756 Speaker 2: So in some ways, when we always think we're being rejected, 244 00:13:13,836 --> 00:13:17,116 Speaker 2: it also influences our behavior to make that rejection more 245 00:13:17,116 --> 00:13:18,556 Speaker 2: of a self fulfilling prophecy too. 246 00:13:19,916 --> 00:13:23,156 Speaker 1: So to summarize, there is a This is so interesting 247 00:13:23,156 --> 00:13:25,876 Speaker 1: because I talked with Vanessa Bonds for this show as well, 248 00:13:25,996 --> 00:13:28,276 Speaker 1: and she calls this the liking gap, right, And I'm 249 00:13:28,276 --> 00:13:30,396 Speaker 1: assuming that's what you're referring to, which is the liking gap. 250 00:13:30,956 --> 00:13:33,996 Speaker 1: So there's a gap between our expectations of how much 251 00:13:34,036 --> 00:13:36,436 Speaker 1: people really like us versus how much we think they 252 00:13:36,556 --> 00:13:38,636 Speaker 1: like us. And the good news is that they tend 253 00:13:38,636 --> 00:13:41,156 Speaker 1: to like us more than we think, So that's reassuring, yes, 254 00:13:41,276 --> 00:13:44,316 Speaker 1: And then The second is just remember that it is 255 00:13:44,356 --> 00:13:47,716 Speaker 1: a self fulfilling prophecy. So play the part of someone 256 00:13:47,756 --> 00:13:50,636 Speaker 1: who believes they are likable and lovable and worthy of 257 00:13:50,676 --> 00:13:53,516 Speaker 1: friendship love. And the more you do that, the more 258 00:13:53,556 --> 00:13:56,236 Speaker 1: your best traits are recruited from you. Whereas if you 259 00:13:56,276 --> 00:13:59,036 Speaker 1: go into a situation believing you'll get rejected, that will 260 00:13:59,076 --> 00:14:00,756 Speaker 1: bring out the worst sides of you. 261 00:14:00,836 --> 00:14:04,236 Speaker 2: Right exactly. You know, that is a really great point. Really, 262 00:14:04,276 --> 00:14:06,396 Speaker 2: when I see people act in very harmful ways in 263 00:14:06,436 --> 00:14:10,156 Speaker 2: their friendship, it's because they think people don't care about them, right, 264 00:14:10,236 --> 00:14:12,076 Speaker 2: So I never reach out to my friends because I 265 00:14:12,076 --> 00:14:14,316 Speaker 2: think they're going to see it as a burden. It's 266 00:14:14,396 --> 00:14:16,356 Speaker 2: just when we think someone is going to reject us, 267 00:14:16,396 --> 00:14:19,596 Speaker 2: it licenses us to engage in all types of harmful 268 00:14:19,636 --> 00:14:21,396 Speaker 2: and crappy behaviors because we're like, they're not going to 269 00:14:21,436 --> 00:14:23,356 Speaker 2: care anyway if I ghost them, So I guess I'm 270 00:14:23,356 --> 00:14:24,836 Speaker 2: just going to ghost them because they don't really care 271 00:14:24,876 --> 00:14:27,956 Speaker 2: about me. And so in some ways, I think that's 272 00:14:27,996 --> 00:14:30,516 Speaker 2: why believing people care about you and believing people love 273 00:14:30,596 --> 00:14:34,996 Speaker 2: you causes you to be a lot better of a friend. 274 00:14:36,436 --> 00:14:38,996 Speaker 1: After the break, Marisa tells us how we can be 275 00:14:38,996 --> 00:14:41,836 Speaker 1: better friends to the people who are already in our lives. 276 00:14:42,476 --> 00:14:44,516 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment with a slight change 277 00:14:44,516 --> 00:14:53,636 Speaker 1: of plans. So we've talked up to this point about 278 00:14:53,636 --> 00:14:55,676 Speaker 1: how it is that we can do a better job 279 00:14:56,076 --> 00:14:59,556 Speaker 1: making new friends. Now I'd love to pivot to how 280 00:14:59,596 --> 00:15:01,836 Speaker 1: we can do a better job of investing in and 281 00:15:01,916 --> 00:15:05,476 Speaker 1: maintaining our current friendships. Yes, what are the factors that 282 00:15:05,756 --> 00:15:06,796 Speaker 1: we should keep in mind? 283 00:15:07,476 --> 00:15:11,676 Speaker 2: So when it comes to to keeping friends. That makes 284 00:15:11,716 --> 00:15:14,356 Speaker 2: me think about this theory called risk regulation theory, which 285 00:15:14,396 --> 00:15:16,956 Speaker 2: was originally created for romantic partners, but I think applies 286 00:15:16,996 --> 00:15:19,996 Speaker 2: for friends too. And it's this idea that we decide 287 00:15:19,996 --> 00:15:22,036 Speaker 2: how much to invest in a relationship based on our 288 00:15:22,156 --> 00:15:24,916 Speaker 2: likelihood of being rejected. And the more that we can 289 00:15:24,996 --> 00:15:28,396 Speaker 2: convey to someone that we won't reject them, the more 290 00:15:28,436 --> 00:15:31,596 Speaker 2: they can invest in the relationship with us. And so 291 00:15:32,596 --> 00:15:36,516 Speaker 2: showing affection towards friends, being generous towards friends, anything that 292 00:15:36,556 --> 00:15:39,716 Speaker 2: shows someone that you love and you value them is 293 00:15:39,796 --> 00:15:43,236 Speaker 2: going to help the friendship. It's going to deepen the friendship. 294 00:15:43,236 --> 00:15:46,436 Speaker 2: Anything that shows care, consideration, investment in the other person, 295 00:15:46,436 --> 00:15:48,756 Speaker 2: because that's a sign to that other person, like, oh, 296 00:15:48,916 --> 00:15:50,836 Speaker 2: now I can invest in this relationship. It's safe for 297 00:15:50,876 --> 00:15:52,956 Speaker 2: me to invest because of how much investment they've shown 298 00:15:52,956 --> 00:15:55,156 Speaker 2: in me. And so I talk in my book about, 299 00:15:55,236 --> 00:15:59,436 Speaker 2: for example, like generosity, affection, even I think vulnerability in 300 00:15:59,436 --> 00:16:02,636 Speaker 2: some ways, like when people are vulnerable with us, that 301 00:16:02,756 --> 00:16:05,436 Speaker 2: conveys to us that they trust us, and it makes 302 00:16:05,476 --> 00:16:08,116 Speaker 2: us more likely to be vulnerable with them. All of 303 00:16:08,116 --> 00:16:10,036 Speaker 2: these behaviors that show up investment are going to better 304 00:16:10,036 --> 00:16:14,556 Speaker 2: our relationships. But we can also talk about misconcept called mutuality, 305 00:16:15,156 --> 00:16:17,676 Speaker 2: and mutuality is different from a lot of the ways 306 00:16:17,676 --> 00:16:19,636 Speaker 2: that we think about friendship in terms of we might 307 00:16:19,676 --> 00:16:21,996 Speaker 2: think of it as reciprocity. I reach out this time, 308 00:16:22,036 --> 00:16:24,916 Speaker 2: you should reach out the next time. But mutuality is 309 00:16:25,036 --> 00:16:28,996 Speaker 2: like taking a step back to look at the broader 310 00:16:29,396 --> 00:16:32,516 Speaker 2: dynamics that are going on for each of us and 311 00:16:32,916 --> 00:16:36,796 Speaker 2: figuring out whose needs make sense to prioritize in this 312 00:16:36,876 --> 00:16:39,716 Speaker 2: given situation. So what I mean by that maya is 313 00:16:39,756 --> 00:16:41,876 Speaker 2: that there might be times when my friend is in 314 00:16:41,916 --> 00:16:44,636 Speaker 2: a lot of stress, you know, going through mental health issues, 315 00:16:44,756 --> 00:16:47,956 Speaker 2: just had a newborn baby, where I can't expect mutuality 316 00:16:47,996 --> 00:16:50,636 Speaker 2: because I understand that I have greater capacity than they do. 317 00:16:51,156 --> 00:16:52,996 Speaker 2: And then at other times you know, they might be 318 00:16:52,996 --> 00:16:55,516 Speaker 2: investing more in me, Like Michelle Obama also talked about 319 00:16:55,516 --> 00:16:57,876 Speaker 2: this in her new book, like a relationship is never 320 00:16:57,876 --> 00:16:59,956 Speaker 2: going to be fifty to fifty, and I see that 321 00:17:00,036 --> 00:17:03,156 Speaker 2: in terms of long term friendships too. There's going to 322 00:17:03,156 --> 00:17:04,956 Speaker 2: be a period when you're giving more, there's going to 323 00:17:04,996 --> 00:17:07,196 Speaker 2: be a period when you're getting more. And it's like 324 00:17:07,356 --> 00:17:09,236 Speaker 2: the measure of equality is more so in life, like 325 00:17:09,396 --> 00:17:10,876 Speaker 2: the larger scheme of things. 326 00:17:11,596 --> 00:17:13,636 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so funny that you mentioned that, because one 327 00:17:13,676 --> 00:17:16,276 Speaker 1: of my best friends recently came over to share that 328 00:17:16,276 --> 00:17:18,876 Speaker 1: she was pregnant, and she and her husband were here, 329 00:17:18,916 --> 00:17:21,996 Speaker 1: and they joked, we're actually here to say our goodbyes, 330 00:17:22,076 --> 00:17:25,116 Speaker 1: Maya and Jimmy, it's been so wonderful being friends with you. 331 00:17:25,556 --> 00:17:27,636 Speaker 1: And of course she's nodding to the fact that, you know, 332 00:17:27,716 --> 00:17:30,956 Speaker 1: first time parents kind of disappear for an extended period 333 00:17:30,996 --> 00:17:34,236 Speaker 1: in those early years. And you know, it was a joke, 334 00:17:34,276 --> 00:17:36,876 Speaker 1: but it did actually lead me to have a candid 335 00:17:36,876 --> 00:17:40,716 Speaker 1: conversation with her a couple weeks later about how, for 336 00:17:40,756 --> 00:17:43,356 Speaker 1: the first time ever since we met in college when 337 00:17:43,356 --> 00:17:47,436 Speaker 1: we were teenagers, our lives are diverging in this really 338 00:17:47,476 --> 00:17:50,916 Speaker 1: profound way. And so I'm wondering if you have advice 339 00:17:51,596 --> 00:17:54,916 Speaker 1: for me in this case and listeners as well, about 340 00:17:55,556 --> 00:17:58,156 Speaker 1: how to navigate friendships when our lives feel like they're 341 00:17:58,476 --> 00:18:00,076 Speaker 1: entering completely different phases. 342 00:18:01,916 --> 00:18:04,356 Speaker 2: I love the fact that you had a conversation with 343 00:18:04,396 --> 00:18:06,836 Speaker 2: your friend, because I think part of the reason why 344 00:18:06,836 --> 00:18:09,116 Speaker 2: friendships tend to tear when we move into these different 345 00:18:09,236 --> 00:18:12,596 Speaker 2: stages is because we rely on a set of assumptions like, oh, 346 00:18:12,636 --> 00:18:14,156 Speaker 2: this person as a kid, they have no time to 347 00:18:14,156 --> 00:18:15,436 Speaker 2: talk to me, they don't want to hear from me, 348 00:18:16,076 --> 00:18:18,516 Speaker 2: or people that have kids being like my single friend 349 00:18:18,596 --> 00:18:20,676 Speaker 2: just thinks my life is boring and they don't want 350 00:18:20,676 --> 00:18:22,356 Speaker 2: to be around my kids, so I can't hang out 351 00:18:22,396 --> 00:18:24,716 Speaker 2: with them. And it's the set of assumptions that tends 352 00:18:24,756 --> 00:18:26,916 Speaker 2: to pull us apart, whereas when we can actually have 353 00:18:26,956 --> 00:18:29,716 Speaker 2: the conversation, okay, like I would love to still hang 354 00:18:29,756 --> 00:18:31,396 Speaker 2: out sometime, What does that look like for you? Does 355 00:18:31,436 --> 00:18:33,196 Speaker 2: it mean I have to come over after the kid 356 00:18:33,276 --> 00:18:35,876 Speaker 2: is put to bed? How comfortable are you hanging out 357 00:18:35,876 --> 00:18:38,756 Speaker 2: with the kid around? What are your boundaries around this? 358 00:18:38,796 --> 00:18:40,596 Speaker 2: Instead of I'm just gonna assume that you're too busy 359 00:18:40,636 --> 00:18:44,236 Speaker 2: to ever talk to me again, you can affirm an 360 00:18:44,236 --> 00:18:46,556 Speaker 2: identity and a friend even though it's not your own, 361 00:18:46,636 --> 00:18:48,596 Speaker 2: even it's not one that you would choose for yourself, 362 00:18:48,636 --> 00:18:51,076 Speaker 2: but realizing that it's right for them. And that's actually 363 00:18:51,156 --> 00:18:55,116 Speaker 2: related to maintaining best friendships over time, maintaining and deepening 364 00:18:55,116 --> 00:18:57,076 Speaker 2: best friendships over time when you can do that. And 365 00:18:57,116 --> 00:18:59,036 Speaker 2: so that looks like, even if we don't have the 366 00:18:59,036 --> 00:19:01,996 Speaker 2: same life experience, let's still show interest in our differences. 367 00:19:02,076 --> 00:19:04,196 Speaker 2: Let's still show interest in what's it like for you 368 00:19:04,236 --> 00:19:05,716 Speaker 2: to be a mom, or what's it like for you 369 00:19:05,796 --> 00:19:07,556 Speaker 2: to live your child this life? What are you doing 370 00:19:07,596 --> 00:19:10,236 Speaker 2: with that? And instead of I'm assuming that because we 371 00:19:10,316 --> 00:19:13,396 Speaker 2: have this difference, it's not something that we can connect on, 372 00:19:13,476 --> 00:19:16,676 Speaker 2: because we do look for friendships for commonality but also 373 00:19:16,716 --> 00:19:19,556 Speaker 2: for expansion. And so now this friendship is going to 374 00:19:19,596 --> 00:19:22,276 Speaker 2: provide you an opportunity to expand and be like, oh, 375 00:19:22,316 --> 00:19:24,116 Speaker 2: this is what it's like when someone really close to 376 00:19:24,156 --> 00:19:26,356 Speaker 2: me has a kid, and these are what their concerns are, 377 00:19:26,356 --> 00:19:28,476 Speaker 2: these are the things that stress them out, and just 378 00:19:28,556 --> 00:19:30,036 Speaker 2: maintain curiosity about that. 379 00:19:30,436 --> 00:19:33,516 Speaker 1: Yeah, touches back on a point you were making earlier 380 00:19:33,516 --> 00:19:36,756 Speaker 1: in our conversation Marissa about how friendships can be mind 381 00:19:36,836 --> 00:19:39,836 Speaker 1: expanding in this really powerful way. Right, you felt so 382 00:19:39,956 --> 00:19:42,596 Speaker 1: alive when these parts of yourself were tapped into or 383 00:19:42,596 --> 00:19:44,916 Speaker 1: you were learning about new aspects of the world. And 384 00:19:45,156 --> 00:19:47,436 Speaker 1: I really love that reframe, and I think it's one 385 00:19:47,476 --> 00:19:50,556 Speaker 1: I'll carry with me as my friend has this child. 386 00:19:50,756 --> 00:19:53,116 Speaker 1: And another thing that she and I talked about in 387 00:19:53,156 --> 00:19:56,356 Speaker 1: this conversation was the long term nature of our friendship. 388 00:19:56,476 --> 00:19:59,756 Speaker 1: So we kind of acknowledge there might be some speed bumps, 389 00:19:59,836 --> 00:20:03,036 Speaker 1: there might be some harder moments in time in the 390 00:20:03,036 --> 00:20:05,796 Speaker 1: short term, but let's not forget that we are committed 391 00:20:05,876 --> 00:20:06,996 Speaker 1: for life as friends. 392 00:20:07,076 --> 00:20:07,596 Speaker 2: I love that. 393 00:20:07,996 --> 00:20:10,716 Speaker 1: Yeah, I found the converse pretty therapeutic because I think 394 00:20:10,716 --> 00:20:12,956 Speaker 1: I was having a lot of anxiety around what would 395 00:20:12,996 --> 00:20:16,236 Speaker 1: happen to this best friendship of mine, and so it 396 00:20:16,276 --> 00:20:18,556 Speaker 1: felt good to confront it head on, even though I 397 00:20:18,596 --> 00:20:20,236 Speaker 1: was a little nervous to have the conversation. 398 00:20:21,276 --> 00:20:24,836 Speaker 2: I think that's really awesome. I think that's really really awesome, 399 00:20:24,876 --> 00:20:27,836 Speaker 2: And it reminds me of the study on long distance 400 00:20:27,876 --> 00:20:31,396 Speaker 2: friendships that maintaining them was kind of looking at the 401 00:20:31,436 --> 00:20:34,556 Speaker 2: times when you don't talk as flexible not fragile, like 402 00:20:34,596 --> 00:20:36,316 Speaker 2: friendship can eb and flow if we have an Ebb. 403 00:20:36,396 --> 00:20:38,876 Speaker 2: Let's not assume the friendship is over and never reengage, 404 00:20:38,916 --> 00:20:41,236 Speaker 2: but instead it assume that this is part of the 405 00:20:41,236 --> 00:20:43,876 Speaker 2: life story of the friendship. There's going to be moments 406 00:20:43,916 --> 00:20:45,876 Speaker 2: where we're spread apart, and then there's going to be 407 00:20:45,916 --> 00:20:47,516 Speaker 2: moments where we come back together again. 408 00:20:48,116 --> 00:20:50,796 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you're reminding me this moment with this particular friend. 409 00:20:51,276 --> 00:20:54,636 Speaker 1: We already share that in our history. So we were inseparable. 410 00:20:54,676 --> 00:20:56,436 Speaker 1: We were attached at the hip when we were in college, 411 00:20:56,476 --> 00:20:58,556 Speaker 1: and then she studied abroad for a period of time, 412 00:20:59,036 --> 00:21:01,556 Speaker 1: and then obviously communication went down for a bit, and 413 00:21:01,596 --> 00:21:03,756 Speaker 1: then a couple of years later, the intensity of our 414 00:21:03,796 --> 00:21:07,476 Speaker 1: communications increased. I mean, there's been that waxing and waning already, 415 00:21:07,756 --> 00:21:09,396 Speaker 1: and yet here we are in current days with a 416 00:21:09,516 --> 00:21:12,316 Speaker 1: very stable, healthy friendship. And so it's nice to be 417 00:21:12,356 --> 00:21:15,116 Speaker 1: able to look back at that historical data point as 418 00:21:15,196 --> 00:21:19,476 Speaker 1: evidence that we can get through these periods where things 419 00:21:19,516 --> 00:21:20,156 Speaker 1: go up and down. 420 00:21:20,476 --> 00:21:22,636 Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, And I was on a podcast with 421 00:21:22,676 --> 00:21:24,476 Speaker 2: someone who was I think he was in the sixties 422 00:21:24,716 --> 00:21:26,956 Speaker 2: and he never had kids, and he was like, just remember, 423 00:21:27,116 --> 00:21:29,476 Speaker 2: your friendships are going to come back. Their kids are 424 00:21:29,516 --> 00:21:31,356 Speaker 2: going to leave the nests, and then it's going to 425 00:21:31,396 --> 00:21:33,276 Speaker 2: be like, you're back in your twenties, like how much 426 00:21:33,356 --> 00:21:34,636 Speaker 2: time you want to spend with your friends. 427 00:21:34,636 --> 00:21:37,756 Speaker 1: I'm like, wow, yeah, she's gonna need me eventually, and 428 00:21:37,756 --> 00:21:39,156 Speaker 1: that she's an empty nester. 429 00:21:39,436 --> 00:21:39,876 Speaker 2: I love it. 430 00:21:40,076 --> 00:21:43,516 Speaker 1: I love it. So you know, I mentioned Marisa that 431 00:21:43,516 --> 00:21:45,636 Speaker 1: I felt a little bit of anxiety when it came 432 00:21:45,636 --> 00:21:49,396 Speaker 1: to raising this topic with my friend. And speaking of anxiety, 433 00:21:49,516 --> 00:21:53,196 Speaker 1: one area that can cause us a lot of anxiety 434 00:21:53,276 --> 00:21:55,316 Speaker 1: is fighting in the context of friendship. 435 00:21:55,756 --> 00:21:57,236 Speaker 2: And in part this is. 436 00:21:57,236 --> 00:22:01,036 Speaker 1: Because we're led to believe that it's unreasonable for us 437 00:22:01,036 --> 00:22:04,396 Speaker 1: to have big arguments with our friends, because after all, 438 00:22:04,476 --> 00:22:06,836 Speaker 1: they're just our friends, right, But you say in your 439 00:22:06,836 --> 00:22:11,636 Speaker 1: book it's actually quite important to fight in friendship. Empower 440 00:22:11,756 --> 00:22:15,396 Speaker 1: us in this moment, empower us to have those difficult 441 00:22:15,436 --> 00:22:18,996 Speaker 1: conversations with friends where in the moment it feels easier 442 00:22:19,036 --> 00:22:21,356 Speaker 1: just pushing under the rug, but that's not actually in 443 00:22:21,396 --> 00:22:23,356 Speaker 1: the long term best interest of the friendship. 444 00:22:23,756 --> 00:22:26,636 Speaker 2: Yeah, this was like my biggest growth area in friendships 445 00:22:26,676 --> 00:22:28,916 Speaker 2: that I was like, being a good friend means me 446 00:22:28,996 --> 00:22:32,436 Speaker 2: getting over it, totally getting over the problem that I 447 00:22:32,516 --> 00:22:36,316 Speaker 2: have in this friendship, and then realizing, oh, I'm actually 448 00:22:36,356 --> 00:22:39,356 Speaker 2: like just withdrawing, I'm not actually just getting over it, 449 00:22:39,556 --> 00:22:42,316 Speaker 2: and it's hurting and harming my friendships. And so I 450 00:22:42,356 --> 00:22:44,556 Speaker 2: started to read all this research that you know, people 451 00:22:44,596 --> 00:22:47,836 Speaker 2: who really value friendship tend to actually address problems instead 452 00:22:47,836 --> 00:22:51,316 Speaker 2: of just ignoring them, and that open empathic conflict is 453 00:22:51,356 --> 00:22:55,676 Speaker 2: correlated with deeper intimacy, and so I was like, wow, 454 00:22:55,876 --> 00:22:58,996 Speaker 2: am I actually missing out on this opportunity for intimacy 455 00:22:59,076 --> 00:23:03,076 Speaker 2: by trying to ignore the conflict. And there's a psychoanalysts, 456 00:23:03,116 --> 00:23:06,396 Speaker 2: Virginia Goldner, who talks about how you can have flaccid safety, 457 00:23:06,476 --> 00:23:09,076 Speaker 2: which is basically we're close because we pretend there's no 458 00:23:09,276 --> 00:23:11,716 Speaker 2: or any problems or dynamic safety where you could actually 459 00:23:11,796 --> 00:23:13,876 Speaker 2: rupture and repair and rupture and repair. And then you 460 00:23:13,916 --> 00:23:17,036 Speaker 2: have a president that whenever a problem comes up, we 461 00:23:17,116 --> 00:23:19,316 Speaker 2: know that we can actually address it and make it 462 00:23:19,356 --> 00:23:21,876 Speaker 2: better instead of our only options being to just injure 463 00:23:22,116 --> 00:23:24,756 Speaker 2: or walk away. And so I just was like, hm, 464 00:23:26,036 --> 00:23:29,036 Speaker 2: maybe I actually need to address problems with my friends. 465 00:23:29,036 --> 00:23:32,156 Speaker 2: And that was another way where I compartmentalize intimacy, right, 466 00:23:32,236 --> 00:23:35,676 Speaker 2: because I knew in my romantic partnerships that I was 467 00:23:35,676 --> 00:23:38,356 Speaker 2: going to have to address problems and work through issues 468 00:23:38,396 --> 00:23:41,116 Speaker 2: and you're about marriage is hard, you're going to have to, 469 00:23:41,276 --> 00:23:44,036 Speaker 2: you know, work through all these problems together, and not 470 00:23:44,156 --> 00:23:47,476 Speaker 2: realizing that part of intimacy is conflict and so friendship 471 00:23:47,516 --> 00:23:49,556 Speaker 2: is also going to require the same set of skills. 472 00:23:50,356 --> 00:23:52,596 Speaker 2: And the other thing that I realized was that I 473 00:23:52,716 --> 00:23:56,316 Speaker 2: was conflicating conflict with combat, when in fact, conflict could 474 00:23:56,316 --> 00:23:59,956 Speaker 2: look like reconciliation. And so it was me learning to 475 00:24:00,156 --> 00:24:03,196 Speaker 2: do things like frame the conversation as an act of love, 476 00:24:03,436 --> 00:24:05,316 Speaker 2: like Hey, I want to talk about this because you're 477 00:24:05,356 --> 00:24:07,836 Speaker 2: so important to me, you know, and I know you're 478 00:24:07,876 --> 00:24:11,036 Speaker 2: having kids and I'm so excited for you, and you know, 479 00:24:11,076 --> 00:24:13,116 Speaker 2: I have some anxieties about whether we're going to stay close, 480 00:24:13,156 --> 00:24:14,956 Speaker 2: so I figured I would bring it up so we 481 00:24:14,956 --> 00:24:16,716 Speaker 2: could still find a way to stay close through this 482 00:24:16,756 --> 00:24:20,396 Speaker 2: big life change of ours. And then using eye statements 483 00:24:20,476 --> 00:24:22,956 Speaker 2: like yeah, I've been feeling a little nervous about how 484 00:24:22,956 --> 00:24:26,716 Speaker 2: this could impact their closeness, and then perspective taking, which 485 00:24:26,756 --> 00:24:29,556 Speaker 2: looks like the mutuality of as you share your feelings, 486 00:24:29,836 --> 00:24:32,076 Speaker 2: how do you feel? What are you thinking, and then 487 00:24:32,156 --> 00:24:34,556 Speaker 2: asking for what you need in the future, like you know, 488 00:24:34,676 --> 00:24:37,196 Speaker 2: maybe i'd still like to see you like once a 489 00:24:37,196 --> 00:24:39,276 Speaker 2: month or twice a month, how would that work out 490 00:24:39,356 --> 00:24:42,116 Speaker 2: for you? And so I think healthy conflict looks like 491 00:24:42,436 --> 00:24:44,596 Speaker 2: wading into the ambivalence, like a part of me is 492 00:24:44,636 --> 00:24:47,196 Speaker 2: afraid too. We actually feel some of the same things 493 00:24:47,676 --> 00:24:49,676 Speaker 2: as this big change or this issue in our friendship 494 00:24:49,676 --> 00:24:50,236 Speaker 2: has come up. 495 00:24:51,036 --> 00:24:54,116 Speaker 1: I really resonate with the frame the conversation as an 496 00:24:54,116 --> 00:24:57,556 Speaker 1: affirmation of love. I'm thinking about one of my closest friends, 497 00:24:57,596 --> 00:24:59,796 Speaker 1: and you know, at times he's like, can't we just 498 00:24:59,876 --> 00:25:03,396 Speaker 1: let this go? Shunks? Shunks is like nicknames among my friends. 499 00:25:03,476 --> 00:25:05,116 Speaker 1: He's like, can't we just why do we have to 500 00:25:05,156 --> 00:25:07,316 Speaker 1: discuss these things? You know, can't we just let it? 501 00:25:07,356 --> 00:25:09,796 Speaker 1: And I told him, I was like, hey, you do 502 00:25:09,916 --> 00:25:12,596 Speaker 1: realize that I don't put in this effort with everyone, right, 503 00:25:12,636 --> 00:25:16,196 Speaker 1: It's because I care so much about you and our 504 00:25:16,236 --> 00:25:20,236 Speaker 1: communication and our lifelong friendship that I do try to 505 00:25:20,436 --> 00:25:22,676 Speaker 1: conflict resolve and problem solve and obviously like there's a 506 00:25:22,716 --> 00:25:24,956 Speaker 1: happy medium. But it was I think that was really 507 00:25:24,996 --> 00:25:27,396 Speaker 1: affirming for him. I feel like he it changed the 508 00:25:27,396 --> 00:25:30,476 Speaker 1: whole spin on why it was that I was initiating 509 00:25:30,516 --> 00:25:32,636 Speaker 1: these kinds of uncomfortable conversations. 510 00:25:33,276 --> 00:25:35,836 Speaker 2: Absolutely, and I think as a professor I really tried 511 00:25:35,876 --> 00:25:38,116 Speaker 2: to be intentional about making my students feel safe, and 512 00:25:38,156 --> 00:25:40,356 Speaker 2: what comes out of that is they demand so much 513 00:25:40,436 --> 00:25:43,356 Speaker 2: more of me. And I remember hearing from this psychologist 514 00:25:43,396 --> 00:25:47,076 Speaker 2: who studies narcissists. She said, the most toxic person is 515 00:25:47,116 --> 00:25:50,796 Speaker 2: the least confronted. And so if your friends are coming 516 00:25:50,916 --> 00:25:53,276 Speaker 2: up to you to address an issue, maybe it's not 517 00:25:53,276 --> 00:25:54,876 Speaker 2: a sign that you're a crappy friend. Maybe it's a 518 00:25:54,876 --> 00:25:57,196 Speaker 2: sign that they feel safe enough to actually bring up 519 00:25:57,236 --> 00:25:59,476 Speaker 2: a problem instead of trying to ignore it. 520 00:25:59,996 --> 00:26:02,796 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a really excellent way of seeing it. You 521 00:26:02,796 --> 00:26:05,396 Speaker 1: wouldn't invest the time in someone that you didn't You 522 00:26:05,396 --> 00:26:08,476 Speaker 1: wouldn't feel vulnerable enough to bring this up with someone 523 00:26:08,516 --> 00:26:12,076 Speaker 1: that you didn't in this deep way trust exactly. And 524 00:26:12,116 --> 00:26:14,636 Speaker 1: so it's actually an ode to the quality of the 525 00:26:14,636 --> 00:26:19,676 Speaker 1: friendship that you're having these conversations. There are some cases, 526 00:26:19,796 --> 00:26:24,356 Speaker 1: of course, where, for whatever reason transitions in life the 527 00:26:24,436 --> 00:26:27,636 Speaker 1: nature of the relationship, you actually feel it's important to 528 00:26:27,796 --> 00:26:31,516 Speaker 1: break up with a friend, and that can be extremely uncomfortable. 529 00:26:32,156 --> 00:26:34,596 Speaker 1: What do you recommend that people do in a situation 530 00:26:34,956 --> 00:26:38,356 Speaker 1: like that where they just realize this friendship just isn't 531 00:26:38,396 --> 00:26:40,596 Speaker 1: serving me anymore, It's not good for either of us, 532 00:26:40,636 --> 00:26:44,476 Speaker 1: you know, whatever the reason is, it feels it's such 533 00:26:44,476 --> 00:26:47,996 Speaker 1: a hard space Marsa, because there's an expectation in society 534 00:26:48,036 --> 00:26:50,916 Speaker 1: that we break up with significant others. I mean, that's 535 00:26:50,956 --> 00:26:53,116 Speaker 1: just like part of the cultural narrative that happens. But 536 00:26:53,596 --> 00:26:56,116 Speaker 1: the idea of breaking up with a friend just feels 537 00:26:56,476 --> 00:26:59,676 Speaker 1: almost a bit foreign and a little taboo. And yeah, 538 00:27:00,156 --> 00:27:01,236 Speaker 1: help me make sense of this. 539 00:27:02,036 --> 00:27:07,276 Speaker 2: Yeah, So, I think it depends on whether the other 540 00:27:07,316 --> 00:27:09,676 Speaker 2: person is still invested in you or not. If it 541 00:27:09,716 --> 00:27:12,876 Speaker 2: seems mutual and the other person's pulling away, you're pulling away, 542 00:27:13,236 --> 00:27:14,916 Speaker 2: then I think it's fine to just kind of pull 543 00:27:14,956 --> 00:27:16,956 Speaker 2: away and let it be. But if the other person 544 00:27:16,996 --> 00:27:19,156 Speaker 2: continues to seem invested in a friendship with you and 545 00:27:19,156 --> 00:27:21,876 Speaker 2: you're no longer invested in a friendship with them, the 546 00:27:22,036 --> 00:27:24,876 Speaker 2: kindest thing to do is to tell them, because if 547 00:27:24,916 --> 00:27:28,236 Speaker 2: you don't tell them, you trigger something called ambiguous loss, 548 00:27:28,236 --> 00:27:30,676 Speaker 2: which is when we have a lot of trouble processing 549 00:27:30,716 --> 00:27:33,196 Speaker 2: our grief because we don't have any closure, and it's 550 00:27:33,236 --> 00:27:36,116 Speaker 2: almost like they're gonna end up grieving twice because you 551 00:27:36,356 --> 00:27:39,116 Speaker 2: weren't able to muster up the courage to have a conversation, 552 00:27:39,236 --> 00:27:41,996 Speaker 2: so it's quite meaning, but it doesn't feel mean. That's 553 00:27:41,996 --> 00:27:43,956 Speaker 2: the thing I think with something like ghosting, there's such 554 00:27:43,996 --> 00:27:47,636 Speaker 2: emotional incongruence between the experience of being the ghoster and 555 00:27:47,676 --> 00:27:50,436 Speaker 2: receiving the ghosting, Like it's like, oh, I just kind 556 00:27:50,476 --> 00:27:52,036 Speaker 2: of forgot about it, but the other person is like, 557 00:27:52,076 --> 00:27:53,996 Speaker 2: it's keeping them up at night and they're ruminating on it. 558 00:27:54,036 --> 00:27:56,796 Speaker 2: So I think it's really important to remember that in congruence, 559 00:27:56,836 --> 00:27:59,196 Speaker 2: because if we don't, we might be like, well, it's 560 00:27:59,196 --> 00:28:01,676 Speaker 2: no sweat for me. So I think it's fine, right, 561 00:28:02,116 --> 00:28:03,956 Speaker 2: And then they are just gonna make up all types 562 00:28:03,996 --> 00:28:06,276 Speaker 2: of stories because our brain has this negativity bias, the 563 00:28:06,276 --> 00:28:08,236 Speaker 2: stories are probably gonna be a lot meaner than what 564 00:28:08,276 --> 00:28:11,796 Speaker 2: you're going to tell them. So yeah, I suggest you know, 565 00:28:12,116 --> 00:28:15,876 Speaker 2: having a conversation about it. It's not cruel. You're talking 566 00:28:15,876 --> 00:28:18,556 Speaker 2: about yourself and your own experience and how your needs 567 00:28:18,596 --> 00:28:22,276 Speaker 2: have changed. And I hope that this conversation happens after 568 00:28:23,196 --> 00:28:25,876 Speaker 2: you've tried to address the problem with them and given 569 00:28:25,876 --> 00:28:28,316 Speaker 2: them a chance to repair it, and it hasn't necessarily 570 00:28:28,356 --> 00:28:30,516 Speaker 2: worked unless it's a big betrayal. Of course, you know, 571 00:28:30,516 --> 00:28:33,516 Speaker 2: if the big betrayal then it might be one thing 572 00:28:33,516 --> 00:28:35,516 Speaker 2: that really has broken the friendship. But if it's something 573 00:28:35,556 --> 00:28:37,516 Speaker 2: like smaller on going, like sometimes I feel like in 574 00:28:37,556 --> 00:28:41,036 Speaker 2: our conversations, you don't give space to like hear about me, 575 00:28:41,196 --> 00:28:43,156 Speaker 2: and we're mostly focused on you. Like I hope that 576 00:28:43,196 --> 00:28:45,956 Speaker 2: you have that conversation before deciding to end the friendship, 577 00:28:45,996 --> 00:28:47,956 Speaker 2: but you know, if it's coming to a point where 578 00:28:47,956 --> 00:28:49,796 Speaker 2: you're just like, you know, sometimes I feel like we 579 00:28:50,276 --> 00:28:54,756 Speaker 2: have really incompatible communication styles and that leaves me leaving 580 00:28:54,756 --> 00:28:57,356 Speaker 2: our interactions feeling like kind of sad. And that's why 581 00:28:57,396 --> 00:29:00,756 Speaker 2: I'm feeling like this friendship isn't necessarily working out for 582 00:29:00,836 --> 00:29:04,596 Speaker 2: us anymore. Maybe you are trying to engage with me 583 00:29:04,596 --> 00:29:06,276 Speaker 2: in a certain way, but I just haven't been reading 584 00:29:06,356 --> 00:29:08,636 Speaker 2: it that way, and so that's why this friendship really 585 00:29:08,636 --> 00:29:11,196 Speaker 2: hasn't felt like it's working for me, you know, adding 586 00:29:11,236 --> 00:29:13,316 Speaker 2: like I just wanted to make sure I was being 587 00:29:13,836 --> 00:29:17,956 Speaker 2: upfront and transparent with you moving forward something like that. 588 00:29:18,196 --> 00:29:22,796 Speaker 2: It sounds cruel, but it's a lot less cruel than 589 00:29:23,596 --> 00:29:25,396 Speaker 2: not giving someone any closure. 590 00:29:26,276 --> 00:29:29,356 Speaker 1: Yeah, one piece of advice I took away from your 591 00:29:29,356 --> 00:29:32,436 Speaker 1: book is that when a friendship ends for whatever reason, 592 00:29:32,676 --> 00:29:35,076 Speaker 1: we really need to give ourselves the space to grief 593 00:29:35,316 --> 00:29:38,716 Speaker 1: because you talk about the fact that in our society, 594 00:29:39,356 --> 00:29:42,236 Speaker 1: pain associated with the loss of friendship is devalued. 595 00:29:42,596 --> 00:29:45,436 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's this term called disenfranchised grief, which is like, 596 00:29:45,636 --> 00:29:49,756 Speaker 2: when society doesn't legitimize our loss, we can't legitimize it 597 00:29:49,796 --> 00:29:53,476 Speaker 2: ourselves internally, and we might invalidate our own grief process. 598 00:29:53,556 --> 00:29:55,636 Speaker 2: And there's one thing you should know about grief, it's 599 00:29:55,676 --> 00:29:58,196 Speaker 2: that you can't just suppress it and push it away. 600 00:29:58,196 --> 00:30:00,076 Speaker 2: That you actually have to feel the grief for it 601 00:30:00,116 --> 00:30:02,876 Speaker 2: to be released from you. And so that's why I 602 00:30:02,956 --> 00:30:06,436 Speaker 2: think a lot of people that lose really close friends 603 00:30:06,556 --> 00:30:10,636 Speaker 2: feel very isolated, feel very alienated, can feel preoccupied that 604 00:30:10,716 --> 00:30:13,876 Speaker 2: the loss for such a long period of time because 605 00:30:14,236 --> 00:30:18,116 Speaker 2: they feel like their loss is valid and their loss 606 00:30:18,156 --> 00:30:21,196 Speaker 2: is significant, while their body's telling them the opposite message 607 00:30:21,236 --> 00:30:23,076 Speaker 2: that this is a big loss for you, that you 608 00:30:23,156 --> 00:30:25,476 Speaker 2: have to feel this and that you have to acknowledge it. 609 00:30:25,876 --> 00:30:28,556 Speaker 2: And so that's one of the reasons why some people 610 00:30:28,636 --> 00:30:32,796 Speaker 2: are like, friendship breakups hurt even more than divorce or 611 00:30:32,916 --> 00:30:34,316 Speaker 2: romantic relationship breakup. 612 00:30:34,996 --> 00:30:37,076 Speaker 1: Yeah. I've been reading a lot of writing on this 613 00:30:37,156 --> 00:30:39,836 Speaker 1: topic recently, and there are many many people who have 614 00:30:39,916 --> 00:30:43,116 Speaker 1: said that their friendship's ending exactly as you say. We're 615 00:30:43,156 --> 00:30:46,236 Speaker 1: far more painful than any romantic relationship that came to 616 00:30:46,276 --> 00:30:48,596 Speaker 1: an end. So I'm at least grateful that you're giving 617 00:30:48,636 --> 00:30:53,396 Speaker 1: us strategies for trying to end the friendships with a 618 00:30:53,396 --> 00:30:55,436 Speaker 1: bit more closure to the extent that can help us 619 00:30:55,476 --> 00:30:58,836 Speaker 1: heal or help the other person heal. How has working 620 00:30:58,876 --> 00:31:01,596 Speaker 1: in this space changed the way that you think about 621 00:31:01,676 --> 00:31:03,996 Speaker 1: the friends in your life, Like, is there any anecdote 622 00:31:03,996 --> 00:31:05,716 Speaker 1: that comes to mind in which you think, ooh. As 623 00:31:05,756 --> 00:31:08,796 Speaker 1: a result of exploring this research for years, I'm now 624 00:31:08,796 --> 00:31:10,436 Speaker 1: engage with my friends differently. 625 00:31:11,596 --> 00:31:14,956 Speaker 2: So I aspire to hold friendship at the same regard 626 00:31:14,956 --> 00:31:18,876 Speaker 2: as I do romantic relationships, especially for my closest friends 627 00:31:18,916 --> 00:31:22,036 Speaker 2: in my life. So I had a friend she was 628 00:31:22,076 --> 00:31:26,156 Speaker 2: coming back from Mexico and arriving back from the airport 629 00:31:26,276 --> 00:31:30,036 Speaker 2: at like twelve thirty am, and I was contemplating whether 630 00:31:30,036 --> 00:31:31,436 Speaker 2: I wanted to pick her up, and I was like, 631 00:31:31,476 --> 00:31:33,996 Speaker 2: I'm so tired, I'm in bed by twelve midnight. And 632 00:31:34,636 --> 00:31:38,396 Speaker 2: I asked myself would I offer to pick up my 633 00:31:38,516 --> 00:31:42,676 Speaker 2: romantic partner? And I was like, yeah, absolutely, Like I 634 00:31:42,676 --> 00:31:44,716 Speaker 2: would stay up to pick up my romantic partner, and 635 00:31:44,796 --> 00:31:47,516 Speaker 2: so then I decided that I would go offer to 636 00:31:47,556 --> 00:31:49,516 Speaker 2: pick her up from the airport too, and I did, 637 00:31:49,556 --> 00:31:50,956 Speaker 2: and I realized this is the work. 638 00:31:51,356 --> 00:31:53,596 Speaker 1: And what was your friend's reaction to that? Like, what 639 00:31:53,636 --> 00:31:55,316 Speaker 1: impact do you think that had on your friendship? 640 00:31:55,756 --> 00:31:58,676 Speaker 2: Oh, my gosh, I think it really changed our friendship. 641 00:32:00,116 --> 00:32:02,396 Speaker 2: I think she realized that I was really invested in 642 00:32:02,436 --> 00:32:05,716 Speaker 2: the friendship. Once she realized I was invested, she started 643 00:32:05,756 --> 00:32:08,156 Speaker 2: to invest. Like all my plants died because it got 644 00:32:08,156 --> 00:32:11,396 Speaker 2: too cold, and she noticed that, and she just came 645 00:32:11,476 --> 00:32:14,636 Speaker 2: over and bought a plant for me. And then since 646 00:32:14,676 --> 00:32:17,076 Speaker 2: then we've just been like hanging out a lot more often, 647 00:32:17,196 --> 00:32:19,636 Speaker 2: because I think there's this freedom that comes from knowing 648 00:32:19,676 --> 00:32:22,356 Speaker 2: this person loves you and is intentionally trying to invest 649 00:32:22,356 --> 00:32:24,996 Speaker 2: in you that allows each of us to engage in 650 00:32:25,036 --> 00:32:27,596 Speaker 2: a lot more of the risky behaviors that promote intimacy. 651 00:32:28,516 --> 00:32:31,356 Speaker 1: I'd love to enter conversation with a piece of research 652 00:32:31,396 --> 00:32:34,356 Speaker 1: that you talk about in your book, and it's about 653 00:32:34,356 --> 00:32:37,516 Speaker 1: how we tend to have the wrong idea about what 654 00:32:37,636 --> 00:32:41,236 Speaker 1: people value in us as friends. Yeah, and understanding this 655 00:32:41,316 --> 00:32:44,756 Speaker 1: can actually be quite empowering. Can you tell us more Yeah. 656 00:32:44,756 --> 00:32:46,396 Speaker 2: So this is a study where people were asked to 657 00:32:46,516 --> 00:32:49,436 Speaker 2: rate the most important traits in a friend and I 658 00:32:49,436 --> 00:32:52,316 Speaker 2: think before studying friendship, I thought that trait was being 659 00:32:52,396 --> 00:32:56,636 Speaker 2: charismatic or entertaining or funny, that it was about kind 660 00:32:56,636 --> 00:32:59,036 Speaker 2: of like putting on a show to get people to 661 00:32:59,156 --> 00:33:02,236 Speaker 2: like you. But the number one trait people valued was 662 00:33:02,356 --> 00:33:04,916 Speaker 2: this concept ego support, which is someone making you feel 663 00:33:04,956 --> 00:33:08,276 Speaker 2: like you matter and someone making you feel really valued 664 00:33:08,316 --> 00:33:10,476 Speaker 2: and really loved. And I think this message is really 665 00:33:10,516 --> 00:33:13,436 Speaker 2: hopeful because some people think that if I want to 666 00:33:13,436 --> 00:33:15,796 Speaker 2: make friends, I have to change fundamentally who I am. 667 00:33:16,036 --> 00:33:18,756 Speaker 2: And it's not about who you are. Making friends is 668 00:33:18,796 --> 00:33:21,396 Speaker 2: about being loving toward other people. 669 00:33:55,476 --> 00:33:57,836 Speaker 1: Hey, thanks so much for listening to this season of 670 00:33:57,876 --> 00:34:00,876 Speaker 1: A Slight Change of Plans. I really hope you found 671 00:34:00,876 --> 00:34:05,316 Speaker 1: these conversations helpful. The conversation you just heard actually inspired 672 00:34:05,356 --> 00:34:09,196 Speaker 1: me to reach out to my best friend from childhood, Christine. 673 00:34:09,276 --> 00:34:12,716 Speaker 1: I hadn't talked to her in over twenty years. It 674 00:34:12,756 --> 00:34:16,276 Speaker 1: was a magical reconnection. If something you've heard on the 675 00:34:16,316 --> 00:34:19,356 Speaker 1: show has changed the way you approach your life, I'd 676 00:34:19,356 --> 00:34:22,076 Speaker 1: love to hear from you on Instagram at doctor Maya 677 00:34:22,156 --> 00:34:25,156 Speaker 1: Shunker you can also check this account for a sneak 678 00:34:25,196 --> 00:34:28,156 Speaker 1: peek of our coming season. We'll be back in your 679 00:34:28,196 --> 00:34:31,076 Speaker 1: feeds in no time in late May. I'll see you then. 680 00:34:41,996 --> 00:34:44,996 Speaker 1: A Slight Change of Plans is created, written, and executive 681 00:34:44,996 --> 00:34:48,676 Speaker 1: produced by me Maya Shunker. The Slight Change family includes 682 00:34:48,716 --> 00:34:52,796 Speaker 1: our showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor Kate Parkinson Morgan, 683 00:34:53,196 --> 00:34:57,876 Speaker 1: our sound engineer Andrew Vastola, and our associate producer Sarah McCrae. 684 00:34:58,476 --> 00:35:01,756 Speaker 1: Louis Scara wrote our delightful theme song, and Ginger Smith 685 00:35:01,796 --> 00:35:05,156 Speaker 1: helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of Plans is 686 00:35:05,196 --> 00:35:08,596 Speaker 1: a production of Pushkin Industry, so big thanks to everyone there, 687 00:35:09,276 --> 00:35:13,116 Speaker 1: and of course a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. 688 00:35:14,076 --> 00:35:16,556 Speaker 1: You can follow a Slight Change of Plans on Instagram 689 00:35:16,596 --> 00:35:17,916 Speaker 1: at doctor Maya Schunker. 690 00:35:38,556 --> 00:35:40,956 Speaker 2: Okay, am I sounding like I have a little bit 691 00:35:40,996 --> 00:35:42,556 Speaker 2: of a lag? Yeah, sounding like you have a little 692 00:35:42,556 --> 00:35:44,396 Speaker 2: bit of a life. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, you have 693 00:35:44,436 --> 00:35:48,196 Speaker 2: a lag? Okay it worked? Hello? Hi? 694 00:35:48,876 --> 00:35:51,276 Speaker 1: Oh that I think that's a lot better. Can you 695 00:35:51,316 --> 00:35:52,636 Speaker 1: just tell me what you eat for breakfast? 696 00:35:53,076 --> 00:35:58,076 Speaker 2: Yes, I had some fruits, some grapes, some cauliflower toast. 697 00:35:58,636 --> 00:36:01,836 Speaker 2: Then for lunch I had some rice and some fish 698 00:36:01,876 --> 00:36:05,836 Speaker 2: and some salad with olives and pickles. How am I sounding. 699 00:36:06,236 --> 00:36:12,556 Speaker 1: You're sounding like you're an extremely healthy person. Pulliflower bread. 700 00:36:12,556 --> 00:36:20,636 Speaker 1: What is cauliflower bread? M.