WEBVTT - Morocco’s US-Backed Occupation of Western Sahara 0:00:01.680 --> 0:00:06.960 Col Zone media. 0:00:07.400 --> 0:00:09.840 Hello everyone, unwelcome to it. I could happened here. My name 0:00:09.880 --> 0:00:12.040 is Zanna el Kherd, and I'm a researcher and analyst 0:00:12.080 --> 0:00:15.120 of Arab and Palestinian politics. Today I wanted to talk 0:00:15.120 --> 0:00:18.760 about Western Sahara and the Moroccan occupation of Western Sahara. 0:00:19.400 --> 0:00:22.919 I'm taking this opportunity because Morocco's in the news, specifically 0:00:22.960 --> 0:00:25.080 for the World Cup, but it's always a good opportunity 0:00:25.120 --> 0:00:26.920 when Morocco is in the news to bring up this 0:00:27.040 --> 0:00:31.680 issue and to talk about the ongoing occupation of this territory. Now, 0:00:31.760 --> 0:00:34.080 Western he Hero, for those who are unfamiliar, is often 0:00:34.159 --> 0:00:38.040 called Africa's last colony. It's been contested between the Saharawi 0:00:38.080 --> 0:00:41.360 indigenous people and the Moroccan government since Spain withdrew from 0:00:41.360 --> 0:00:44.400 the territory in nineteen seventy five. Now Morocco took over 0:00:44.440 --> 0:00:46.199 most of the territory and fought a war with the 0:00:46.240 --> 0:00:51.000 Polisaria Front, which is a liberation movement that represents the 0:00:51.040 --> 0:00:55.280 Saharawi people backed by other neighbors of Morocco, including Algeria, 0:00:55.640 --> 0:00:58.840 and it fought a sixteen year war for independence before 0:00:58.920 --> 0:01:01.360 there was a nineteen ninety one Sea. Now this sees 0:01:01.400 --> 0:01:03.680 fire collapsed in twenty twenty and there was a UN 0:01:03.760 --> 0:01:08.119 promised referendum on self determination that never happened. So today 0:01:08.160 --> 0:01:11.280 Morocco controls roughly eighty percent of the territory and there's 0:01:11.280 --> 0:01:14.120 still hundreds of thousands of Saharawi refugees that remain in 0:01:14.160 --> 0:01:19.320 refugee camps in Algeria. The United States accepted and recognized 0:01:19.360 --> 0:01:23.320 Morocco's sovereignty over Western Sahara in exchange for Morocco signing 0:01:23.360 --> 0:01:25.120 a peace agreement with Israel. So that happened with the 0:01:25.160 --> 0:01:29.120 Abraham Accurts. Now recently, through US led diplomacy, there was 0:01:29.160 --> 0:01:32.800 a twenty twenty five UN Security Council resolution that pushed 0:01:32.920 --> 0:01:37.160 for Moroccan autonomy rather than Saharawi independence, as the basis 0:01:37.240 --> 0:01:41.440 for resolving this conflict. So to talk more about this issue, 0:01:41.480 --> 0:01:44.200 I thought it would be a good opportunity to get 0:01:44.200 --> 0:01:47.520 the perspective of a Saharawi person and someone who is 0:01:47.760 --> 0:01:52.040 very embedded in the issue and has lived experience. So 0:01:52.280 --> 0:01:55.080 I spoke today with Mahmad sadem Urud, who is the 0:01:55.080 --> 0:01:58.040 co founder of Saharawi Voice. This is a collective of 0:01:58.080 --> 0:02:01.200 citizen journalists and filmmakers based in the Western Sahara Refugi 0:02:01.280 --> 0:02:05.240 camps in southwest Algeria, and this collective basically is a 0:02:05.280 --> 0:02:08.280 way to provide a platform for Saharawis to share their challenges, 0:02:08.360 --> 0:02:12.720 experiences and hopes with an international audience while equipping Saharawi 0:02:12.800 --> 0:02:15.560 youth with the knowledge and tools to advocate effectively for 0:02:15.639 --> 0:02:19.000 their cause. So I spoke some Hama Sadams today to 0:02:19.040 --> 0:02:21.880 get a Saharawi perspective on things. Now, there might be 0:02:21.919 --> 0:02:25.919 some listeners that don't agree with everything that was mentioned, 0:02:26.200 --> 0:02:29.040 and that's fine. The point of this kind of interview 0:02:29.160 --> 0:02:33.160 is a type of data. How do people see this 0:02:33.280 --> 0:02:37.120 issue from this perspective. So, without further ado, here is 0:02:37.160 --> 0:02:41.880 my interview with them. Hama Sadum, Hamma Sandam, thank you 0:02:41.880 --> 0:02:43.600 so much for joining us. 0:02:43.639 --> 0:02:44.959 Thank you for the invitation. 0:02:45.880 --> 0:02:48.280 So I'm going to ask a few questions about recent 0:02:48.520 --> 0:02:53.080 Saharawi politics and events, starting with the UN resolution that 0:02:53.240 --> 0:02:57.440 happened in October Resolution twenty seven ninety seven, which basically 0:02:57.440 --> 0:03:02.519 for the first time made Morocco autonomy the explicit basis 0:03:02.560 --> 0:03:06.320 for negotiations while kind of ignoring self determination for the 0:03:06.360 --> 0:03:09.560 Sahrawi people. A lot of our listeners have never heard 0:03:09.560 --> 0:03:12.320 of this resolution, but people have called it the biggest 0:03:12.320 --> 0:03:14.480 shift in the conflict in decades. So can you tell 0:03:14.560 --> 0:03:18.080 us from a Saharawi perspective what it means that the 0:03:18.200 --> 0:03:23.120 UN and international body that once promised Saharawi self determination 0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:28.040 and referendum starts treating the occupier's plan as the starting point. 0:03:28.680 --> 0:03:35.680 So the resolution itself is after they exhausted all the 0:03:35.760 --> 0:03:41.440 other pressure means the US, the European Union and through 0:03:41.560 --> 0:03:47.360 their own individual country pressure and inconditional support to the Morocco. 0:03:47.960 --> 0:03:51.480 The UN was the last resort and they want to 0:03:51.560 --> 0:03:55.680 have a stamp of legality on it. And that's why 0:03:55.720 --> 0:04:01.720 the instrument used the Yuan and and the reality and 0:04:01.880 --> 0:04:05.000 the talk now because we don't have a negotiation yet, 0:04:05.080 --> 0:04:10.040 we have talks that have been sponsored and actually administrated 0:04:10.080 --> 0:04:16.000 and by the US. The now is a sideline. And 0:04:16.080 --> 0:04:20.440 the reason is because the international law is clear and. 0:04:20.440 --> 0:04:23.600 The repeated resolution before. 0:04:23.240 --> 0:04:27.960 This, all of them they have called and demanded that 0:04:28.240 --> 0:04:32.640 the final status of the territory should be decided through 0:04:32.800 --> 0:04:37.120 a referendum, and sometimes the referendum was mused, but always 0:04:37.200 --> 0:04:40.039 there has to provide. 0:04:39.600 --> 0:04:43.039 For the self determination for the people. 0:04:43.160 --> 0:04:49.120 And even like playing with self determination for listeners and 0:04:49.160 --> 0:04:54.080 the referendum itself. It's a huge concession from the Sahara side. 0:04:54.839 --> 0:04:58.720 What in a in a just world, in ideal world, 0:04:59.360 --> 0:05:04.000 moroccould called to withdraw from western Saharah, paying the reparation 0:05:04.200 --> 0:05:09.479 for the Saharai, and those are the steps for a 0:05:09.720 --> 0:05:14.080 just solution for the Saharai past. But the Saharai, we're 0:05:14.120 --> 0:05:17.200 willing to go to the extra mile, and they made 0:05:17.240 --> 0:05:21.520 the concessions. They accepted the referendum, which is, by the way, 0:05:21.560 --> 0:05:26.360 we will intel a huge number of the settlers will 0:05:26.360 --> 0:05:29.400 be taken apart in that referendum and would not be 0:05:29.640 --> 0:05:33.080 just the Saharau. But even with that is still not 0:05:34.440 --> 0:05:38.240 sure that they will even win the support of their 0:05:38.279 --> 0:05:41.440 own settlers that they brought with them. So they had 0:05:41.520 --> 0:05:45.240 to ask the US for the help. And of course 0:05:45.600 --> 0:05:48.640 the US is doing this as a reward for local 0:05:49.279 --> 0:05:53.880 for being a sub servant stage and the watching dog 0:05:53.960 --> 0:05:57.320 of the European Union, for being willing also to go 0:05:57.440 --> 0:06:01.279 public with their relationship with the Zions State of Israel, 0:06:01.320 --> 0:06:03.919 because for us, we have been saying this for a 0:06:03.960 --> 0:06:04.479 long time. 0:06:04.560 --> 0:06:08.080 Morocco always had those relationships. It was the. 0:06:08.120 --> 0:06:12.039 Price of recognizing the moroccanity of Western Sahara was the 0:06:12.160 --> 0:06:16.240 price to go public with those relationships, and that's what 0:06:16.279 --> 0:06:21.039 they did. Eventually, Morocco is selling themselves to the Doubles 0:06:21.080 --> 0:06:25.640 to get support and recognization for their occupation of Ustern Sahara. 0:06:26.120 --> 0:06:31.279 They are accepting the Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. 0:06:31.480 --> 0:06:35.120 They are sending their money to finals the Peace Board 0:06:35.800 --> 0:06:40.000 committee that Trump made, They are sending their troops. They 0:06:40.040 --> 0:06:44.480 are willing to send them even to fight resistance as 0:06:44.520 --> 0:06:50.360 they are doing everything. They are building chemicals, drunk chemicals factories, 0:06:50.839 --> 0:06:55.920 Israeli chemicals factories in Morocco. Everything that people couldn't even 0:06:56.360 --> 0:07:00.359 the nation. Now it's a reality, and the prices to 0:07:00.480 --> 0:07:05.400 win APAC and Israel support. And they're back in turning 0:07:05.440 --> 0:07:09.159 the occupation into a THEATA company. And not just that, 0:07:09.440 --> 0:07:13.720 but to even use you. And in the international law 0:07:13.760 --> 0:07:19.760 and all the international body so impose the occupations. But 0:07:21.280 --> 0:07:26.280 for us, we know that slavery and many other stuff 0:07:26.720 --> 0:07:32.000 were legal. So even if they were to outlaw the 0:07:32.080 --> 0:07:37.760 self determination, outlaw our demand for free and independent state 0:07:38.080 --> 0:07:40.680 still will not make any difference to us. We are 0:07:40.720 --> 0:07:45.240 determined to fight for what's ours and as a Saharai 0:07:45.920 --> 0:07:50.760 x Saharai leader who passed away told the Bush because 0:07:50.800 --> 0:07:53.840 this is not the first time. Maybe this is public, 0:07:53.880 --> 0:07:56.840 but this is not the first time US try to 0:07:56.960 --> 0:07:57.320 do this. 0:07:57.960 --> 0:07:58.880 During George W. 0:07:59.000 --> 0:08:03.840 Bush first term, when the Twin Tower were hit and 0:08:04.320 --> 0:08:08.080 US wanted to just like rush to solve or to 0:08:08.320 --> 0:08:13.360 just finish all other conflicts everywhere, they wanted to resolve 0:08:13.360 --> 0:08:16.880 the occupation of us in Saharas and asking the Sahara 0:08:17.080 --> 0:08:21.520 to accept the autonomy plane of Moroccan people. And that's 0:08:21.640 --> 0:08:25.160 and they said, like when when the Sahara leader was 0:08:25.200 --> 0:08:27.840 pressed to accept that cicill, we're not accepted. You know, 0:08:28.240 --> 0:08:30.559 we are so powerful that you can dictate to people 0:08:30.640 --> 0:08:33.480 how to live, but you are not powerful enough to 0:08:33.640 --> 0:08:35.120 dictate to people how to die. 0:08:35.440 --> 0:08:38.520 So it's the same for us. Nothing changed. 0:08:39.520 --> 0:08:43.359 Morocco has enjoyed the supports for a long time from 0:08:43.600 --> 0:08:47.760 the majority of the country and especially those like called 0:08:47.760 --> 0:08:51.720 the first world country and feel world all that bs. 0:08:52.000 --> 0:08:55.439 They have always into the supports, but not on theerground. 0:08:55.559 --> 0:08:59.280 Nothing changed, of course, made our independent. It's difficult, but 0:08:59.679 --> 0:09:01.160 we make it impossible. 0:09:01.760 --> 0:09:01.960 Yeah. 0:09:02.000 --> 0:09:05.839 Yeah. The rights of indigenous people are not determined by 0:09:06.160 --> 0:09:06.959 international law. 0:09:07.640 --> 0:09:12.040 Yeah yeah, And Morocco is asking for support and I 0:09:12.240 --> 0:09:15.719 want to legalize their occupation first from Western Sahara and 0:09:15.760 --> 0:09:19.400 they are asking the wrong people and they are waiting 0:09:19.440 --> 0:09:24.280 the support from that. And yeah, their teacher and their 0:09:24.320 --> 0:09:29.680 biggest sponsors are friends with all its colonism atrocity in 0:09:29.800 --> 0:09:35.120 all Africa and other places. And the US, who was 0:09:35.360 --> 0:09:38.800 a country that was built on the genocide of indigenous people. 0:09:38.880 --> 0:09:41.640 So they are they they are. 0:09:42.280 --> 0:09:43.120 In the right company. 0:09:43.520 --> 0:09:47.520 Yes, yes, yes, exactly, that's what we Yeah, Sahara will 0:09:47.600 --> 0:09:49.880 say like if someone gives you advice, you have. 0:09:49.920 --> 0:09:51.920 To look at their house and. 0:09:54.920 --> 0:09:58.240 If they are abiding by the advice, they are giving 0:09:58.280 --> 0:10:02.120 you a nuts. So the yeah, the market chose the 0:10:02.960 --> 0:10:07.400 right mass and the right sponsors to continue its occupation. 0:10:07.520 --> 0:10:19.480 And yeah, graduates from the occupation university. 0:10:21.640 --> 0:10:24.280 So for our listeners, I want to also kind of 0:10:24.320 --> 0:10:28.360 specify that this February, after the UN resolution, the US 0:10:28.559 --> 0:10:30.960 can be in secret talks in Madrid between Morocco, Algeria, 0:10:31.000 --> 0:10:35.360 Mauritania and the Pulsario, overseen by Trump's African advisor. Yeah, 0:10:35.440 --> 0:10:39.520 now it's being negotiated behind closed doors. How are ordinary 0:10:39.559 --> 0:10:43.080 is always especially in the camps. What is their relationship 0:10:43.160 --> 0:10:45.680 right now to these negotiations and to the Pulsaria leadership. 0:10:46.200 --> 0:10:50.720 Yeah, so that's the talk I refer to, because negotiation 0:10:51.040 --> 0:10:54.840 has to start after you established a framework for what 0:10:55.000 --> 0:10:59.120 to negotiate, and so now that hasn't happened, so they 0:10:59.200 --> 0:11:03.200 are more accurately should be described as talk, you know, 0:11:03.400 --> 0:11:07.600 early stages of talk and meetings instead of negotiation, because 0:11:07.720 --> 0:11:11.400 negotiation then when you have a framework for the things 0:11:11.559 --> 0:11:15.719 that you want to achieve and the demand of two parties. 0:11:16.040 --> 0:11:18.080 And in this case, we. 0:11:18.360 --> 0:11:23.680 Haven't even seen one photo of the tool negotiating parties 0:11:24.040 --> 0:11:27.880 and that's very obvious because it shows just how different 0:11:28.000 --> 0:11:32.400 and how how far from each other. And the US 0:11:32.440 --> 0:11:36.120 came with the misconception that they think they just like, 0:11:36.200 --> 0:11:39.000 can't rush this into solutions and be done with it. 0:11:39.480 --> 0:11:44.160 And when they saw resistance from the from the Sahara 0:11:44.840 --> 0:11:50.400 negotiation team and also for the record, also algeria hessitance 0:11:50.559 --> 0:11:55.760 to accept them posing of all those solutions, they started 0:11:55.800 --> 0:12:00.960 to reconsider. And we have many statements from a Sight Bulls, 0:12:01.000 --> 0:12:05.120 the advisor for North Africa and the Middle East or 0:12:05.160 --> 0:12:09.439 North Africa, where he's saying, this seems to be more 0:12:09.480 --> 0:12:13.360 difficult than what we early imagine. And you know starts 0:12:13.360 --> 0:12:17.080 to reconsider his positions. As as to your question the 0:12:17.200 --> 0:12:20.840 Saarah in general, the vast majority of the Saharawi consider 0:12:20.960 --> 0:12:25.280 the Policario to be a liberation movement and their representative. 0:12:25.440 --> 0:12:28.000 And even if they don't have opposed or work in 0:12:28.360 --> 0:12:31.680 a certain they consider themselves to be a Pulicario member. 0:12:32.120 --> 0:12:36.720 That doesn't mean we agree with all Policario. We don't 0:12:36.960 --> 0:12:42.120 have a different opinion about how things should be managed 0:12:42.160 --> 0:12:48.040 and how the saharawikas should be administrated and how to 0:12:48.120 --> 0:12:51.320 deal with with many things. That there is a huge 0:12:51.720 --> 0:12:55.760 and age gap between the first generation of police are 0:12:56.600 --> 0:12:59.760 that the vast majority of those are the members now 0:13:00.120 --> 0:13:02.839 and who are at the top of the leadership are 0:13:02.920 --> 0:13:05.800 people who started the police area. So I was talking 0:13:05.840 --> 0:13:08.800 about people who have been in the leadership position for 0:13:08.840 --> 0:13:12.360 fifty years. So of course there is an obvious need 0:13:12.480 --> 0:13:16.760 for them to step down and be replaced by younger generations, 0:13:16.840 --> 0:13:20.760 by people who have the ability both the physical and 0:13:20.800 --> 0:13:24.920 the mental and right judgment of the time and of 0:13:25.080 --> 0:13:28.920 the means that should be employed to accelerate the liberation 0:13:29.040 --> 0:13:33.520 of firstern Sahara. We see them, but the legisation, as 0:13:33.559 --> 0:13:37.960 you said, it's happening behind the closed door. There are 0:13:38.000 --> 0:13:42.760 no press conferences. We are dependent on the statement from 0:13:42.800 --> 0:13:45.960 there and there to try to build a bigger picture 0:13:46.000 --> 0:13:50.359 of what's happening. But the biggest takeaway and the conclusion 0:13:50.440 --> 0:13:53.960 from the three rounds that took a place so far, 0:13:54.280 --> 0:13:58.120 two in Washington and one in Madrid, there's nothing measure 0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:01.520 is happening except the fact that the US is starting 0:14:01.559 --> 0:14:05.080 to think that it's it's it's more difficult and it's 0:14:05.080 --> 0:14:09.040 going to take more time than what they initially imagine. 0:14:09.360 --> 0:14:12.520 So that's the biggest time I think that and the 0:14:12.800 --> 0:14:16.520 Morocco the autonomy plan. They had it in three pages 0:14:16.640 --> 0:14:21.240 paper that was their proposal for a solution, and France 0:14:21.640 --> 0:14:25.960 and the US asked them for a more extended version 0:14:26.240 --> 0:14:30.000 where they have to outline details, and they hadn't showed 0:14:30.240 --> 0:14:33.680 or produced anything yet. So that's I think they are 0:14:33.800 --> 0:14:39.040 closest ally and supporter and formal colonizer as Francis is 0:14:39.080 --> 0:14:42.400 working closely with them to develop that proposal. 0:14:42.800 --> 0:14:44.960 I see. 0:14:45.520 --> 0:14:48.520 That doesn't change a lot, because you know, if we 0:14:48.640 --> 0:14:52.040 wanted autonomy would have been better up with with Spain, 0:14:52.160 --> 0:14:56.480 and why would we like say say no to Spain 0:14:56.600 --> 0:15:01.800 all to accepted fifty years later to Croft monarchy and 0:15:02.360 --> 0:15:08.520 a servant and the paper to the Zion Standard trance. Yeah, 0:15:08.680 --> 0:15:12.720 our occupier is enjoying their support or nothing new in 0:15:12.800 --> 0:15:14.640 Dada San, I mean. 0:15:14.560 --> 0:15:17.600 It's it's funny that you mentioned that the United States 0:15:17.680 --> 0:15:20.520 and the Africa advisors is starting to recognize it's not 0:15:20.560 --> 0:15:23.640 as easy. I mean, you know, very surprising that the 0:15:23.640 --> 0:15:27.040 Trump imfestoration advisors thought it was going to be easier 0:15:27.080 --> 0:15:40.120 than it is, but obviously not. Yeah, I wanted to 0:15:40.160 --> 0:15:43.280 ask a question also about kind of daily life right 0:15:43.320 --> 0:15:45.640 now for Saharawis. You know, it's been fifty years after 0:15:45.640 --> 0:15:49.480 the Madrid Accords, you still have Harawis under Moroccan control 0:15:49.680 --> 0:15:51.960 in the territory. And then there's of course the refugee 0:15:51.960 --> 0:15:56.600 camps in Algeria. Now that the diplomatic horizon seems to 0:15:56.600 --> 0:16:01.080 be narrowing, what's life like for people who are fighting 0:16:01.080 --> 0:16:05.360 for Saharawi independence? So like human rights defenders, the women, 0:16:05.520 --> 0:16:07.400 the students, you know, I know they face a lot 0:16:07.400 --> 0:16:10.680 of repression in Moroccan territory, but maybe you can describe 0:16:10.680 --> 0:16:12.960 to the listeners, Yeah, what the conditions are like. 0:16:13.880 --> 0:16:17.640 Yeah, I know, it's probably not something intended to do 0:16:17.720 --> 0:16:21.400 but it's not Moroccan territory. It's Western Sahara territory occupied 0:16:21.400 --> 0:16:22.520 by Moroccle my mistake. 0:16:22.600 --> 0:16:24.200 Yes, yes, yes, yeah. 0:16:24.160 --> 0:16:28.720 So the situation there is difficulty the territory. There is 0:16:28.800 --> 0:16:32.080 a media black black heide that's imposed in the territory, 0:16:32.160 --> 0:16:36.520 so non international observer or a journal still allowed to 0:16:36.560 --> 0:16:39.720 access the territory and to see the situation. 0:16:39.400 --> 0:16:40.000 On the ground. 0:16:40.480 --> 0:16:44.400 The people there are morocco Is using both the stick 0:16:44.640 --> 0:16:49.240 and the carts, so trying to buy their allusions to 0:16:49.320 --> 0:16:53.200 the occupation, try to reward those who are willing to 0:16:53.280 --> 0:16:57.520 give up their political rights and so giving them out, 0:16:58.480 --> 0:17:02.920 putting them on social work for projects and those kinds. 0:17:03.560 --> 0:17:07.040 It's not a lot, but enough to survive. And on 0:17:07.080 --> 0:17:11.600 the other hand has jail and depression and the job 0:17:12.400 --> 0:17:16.920 cutting people from their job and making their life as 0:17:16.920 --> 0:17:20.920 miserable as possible to the point either they are announced 0:17:21.080 --> 0:17:25.639 their activism or leave the territory and in some cases 0:17:26.040 --> 0:17:29.520 there are sentenced to life in prison, which has happened 0:17:29.560 --> 0:17:33.040 to many Saharawi activists who have a group called their 0:17:33.160 --> 0:17:37.640 Music Group have been in jail since two thousand and ten, 0:17:38.080 --> 0:17:41.560 and yeah there are some of them are are serving 0:17:41.840 --> 0:17:45.320 thirty years, some of them twenty, some of them life sentence, 0:17:45.920 --> 0:17:49.879 and a few of them were released recently. So the 0:17:49.960 --> 0:17:56.360 situation is very difficult and very deplorable. And what makes 0:17:56.400 --> 0:18:01.040 it even difficult there in the occupied territory are out numbered, 0:18:01.119 --> 0:18:04.359 so there are three more can settlers to each. Those 0:18:04.400 --> 0:18:09.320 are very conservative estimates, it could be more so anything 0:18:09.600 --> 0:18:16.760 that's civil disobedience strategy or tactics will be bemit successful 0:18:16.800 --> 0:18:20.280 and will not produce any results. So it's a very 0:18:20.320 --> 0:18:25.320 difficult situation. But nonetheless there are still or per standing 0:18:25.480 --> 0:18:30.800 background or still despite all the oppression and all the 0:18:30.880 --> 0:18:36.080 economic warfare that Marc is waging against them, and the 0:18:36.320 --> 0:18:39.720 even social astralization to try to. 0:18:39.880 --> 0:18:41.800 Even threaten people around you. 0:18:42.440 --> 0:18:45.280 So if you are an activist, even your father, your 0:18:45.480 --> 0:18:48.960 people around you, they will be laid from their job 0:18:49.200 --> 0:18:52.840 just as the repercussions for your activism, So they can 0:18:52.960 --> 0:18:56.560 punish you if you don't care about or own self 0:18:56.760 --> 0:19:00.240 like they punish you through the people or inners call 0:19:00.359 --> 0:19:02.000 and your global close to you. 0:19:02.800 --> 0:19:04.280 So it's very difficult. 0:19:04.440 --> 0:19:08.800 And on the other hand, also the infrastructure there are 0:19:08.920 --> 0:19:12.360 are are not are not as fancy as Morocco try 0:19:12.400 --> 0:19:17.439 to claim. There aren't a single university, and Morocco is 0:19:17.440 --> 0:19:21.360 building more of jails and even the presenter Saha, they 0:19:21.400 --> 0:19:25.080 sentenced them and they when they're serving their senses, they 0:19:25.080 --> 0:19:27.880 put them far away to punish their family, to make 0:19:28.000 --> 0:19:30.920 them pay a lot of money and travel inside Morocco 0:19:31.000 --> 0:19:34.040 to be able to visit their loved ones instead of 0:19:34.440 --> 0:19:38.800 having them close by. Artists and occupied Western Sahara. So 0:19:38.960 --> 0:19:43.320 the stuition is very difficult. But those who are choosing 0:19:43.400 --> 0:19:47.399 to stand their ground are a reader of history and 0:19:47.520 --> 0:19:50.320 they are aware of the price that has to be 0:19:50.680 --> 0:19:55.280 paid order to obtain our freedom and our independence. And 0:19:56.119 --> 0:19:58.800 the darker it gets, we know that closer that there 0:19:58.800 --> 0:20:02.919 will be a another morning that's coming behind that. So 0:20:03.480 --> 0:20:08.160 we have been here way longer before Trump administration and 0:20:08.240 --> 0:20:12.159 his advisor, and we will be here. So it's the 0:20:12.240 --> 0:20:16.040 moroc I think that they think this is their golden 0:20:16.119 --> 0:20:21.600 opportunities and that they can use everything including the international 0:20:21.680 --> 0:20:26.960 law and international institution and body like the Johan to 0:20:27.000 --> 0:20:29.560 impose their acupation and Western Sahara. 0:20:29.600 --> 0:20:32.640 But again they aremist guided. At the end of the day, 0:20:32.640 --> 0:20:34.760 they would have to put up the table. 0:20:34.520 --> 0:20:37.000 And try to find I think from a pasting in 0:20:37.080 --> 0:20:41.199 perspective like the genocide in Gaza has clarified that the 0:20:41.200 --> 0:20:45.920 international system is not functioning. So you know, they're trying 0:20:45.960 --> 0:20:48.640 to use the international system. Countries like Morocco are trying 0:20:48.640 --> 0:20:53.159 to use the international system for legitimizing control. But the 0:20:53.200 --> 0:20:57.159 international system itself needs to be restructured. And I do 0:20:57.240 --> 0:21:00.520 also want to apologize. I meant Moroccan control of the territory, 0:21:00.760 --> 0:21:05.359 so I sincerely apologize for that. Yes, I also wanted 0:21:05.359 --> 0:21:08.520 to ask because we I mean, we have listeners everywhere, 0:21:08.560 --> 0:21:11.840 but especially for listeners in the United States. You know, 0:21:11.960 --> 0:21:14.960 our government here is driving this process. What would you 0:21:15.000 --> 0:21:17.840 want listeners in the United States to take away from 0:21:17.840 --> 0:21:18.920 this conversation or to do? 0:21:20.200 --> 0:21:23.520 To be honest, I have been to the States one time, 0:21:23.920 --> 0:21:28.639 and I have met many Americans, and I am a 0:21:28.840 --> 0:21:31.680 bead the reader of their media, and I follow their 0:21:32.560 --> 0:21:38.480 their famous podcasts and TV channels and Twitter, you know, discussion, 0:21:38.600 --> 0:21:41.920 and it's very obvious that American they don't care about 0:21:41.920 --> 0:21:45.840 what's going on outside America. They care about the prices 0:21:45.880 --> 0:21:50.840 of all all of house prices and rents and the 0:21:51.280 --> 0:21:52.600 college she is And. 0:21:52.840 --> 0:21:55.439 It's okay, I think it's okay. 0:21:55.520 --> 0:21:58.359 To a degree when your country is not involved in 0:21:58.640 --> 0:22:02.880 maintaining and parting and that your own taxes are used 0:22:02.960 --> 0:22:10.159 to maintain and support and finance genocide and other military occupation. Otherwise, 0:22:10.560 --> 0:22:14.240 then you have the luxury of ignoring what's outside. 0:22:14.359 --> 0:22:17.880 But when it's not, you can just like put. 0:22:17.680 --> 0:22:21.960 Your head on the ground and imagine and just going 0:22:22.000 --> 0:22:26.719 to care about what's happening here domestically and foreign policy. 0:22:27.600 --> 0:22:30.600 What's happening there is far away. Therefore, I don't, yeah, 0:22:31.040 --> 0:22:35.080 So I would like them to inform themselves about Western Sahara, 0:22:35.400 --> 0:22:41.120 understand that they have to push their government and functionally 0:22:41.280 --> 0:22:44.840 to the Western Sahara. At least, we don't have a 0:22:44.840 --> 0:22:49.200 politician in the United States who thinks that the occupation 0:22:49.280 --> 0:22:52.919 of Western Sahara will accelerate the arrival of the Messiah, 0:22:53.280 --> 0:22:56.840 and that it's far away, it has nothing to do 0:22:56.920 --> 0:23:01.120 with the ideology, with the religion, believe anything like that. 0:23:01.640 --> 0:23:05.080 And it would be easier, supposedly, and it will be 0:23:05.800 --> 0:23:11.080 less hesitant politician to take the right stand and the 0:23:11.160 --> 0:23:14.400 right position if enough people know there and they have 0:23:14.440 --> 0:23:18.720 a responsibility to learn and to understand, and that their 0:23:18.840 --> 0:23:23.320 money and their politicians and their foreign policy are taking 0:23:23.400 --> 0:23:28.680 tools on people past, present, and the future in a. 0:23:28.800 --> 0:23:30.120 Very practical way. 0:23:30.520 --> 0:23:34.600 And they don't have the luxury to be ignorant or 0:23:34.680 --> 0:23:37.840 to be to have the apathy. They have to just 0:23:37.960 --> 0:23:40.800 not care about what's going on. They should care because 0:23:41.160 --> 0:23:45.840 their money and their political support and their country resources 0:23:45.960 --> 0:23:49.679 are used against many other people and then anything happened. 0:23:49.800 --> 0:23:54.200 We have the Americans acting like we don't know what's happened. 0:23:54.240 --> 0:23:57.360 Why the rest of the world hates you. People hate 0:23:57.720 --> 0:24:01.679 you for the million of the things your government and 0:24:01.800 --> 0:24:06.200 your silence has done and has caused everywhere else. So 0:24:06.359 --> 0:24:09.280 they have to learn they have a responsibility. They have 0:24:09.400 --> 0:24:13.119 to speak to their local politician and their their representative 0:24:13.200 --> 0:24:17.520 in Congress and Senate and ask them just to do 0:24:17.560 --> 0:24:22.000 the basic thing to follow the international law and start 0:24:22.480 --> 0:24:27.520 supporting my local militarily and politically involved in them to 0:24:28.160 --> 0:24:32.240 continue their occupations and prolonging the suffering of the Sahai. 0:24:32.920 --> 0:24:36.720 That's the very bare minimum. 0:24:36.760 --> 0:24:39.000 Well, thank you so much. On that note, I will 0:24:39.040 --> 0:24:42.080 link Sharawi Voice in the show notes. Yeah, I think 0:24:42.119 --> 0:24:45.280 that people can can learn more about the work that 0:24:45.320 --> 0:24:48.119 your collective does. And thank you for making the time. 0:24:48.680 --> 0:24:51.880 Thank you for the invitation as an honor thank you. 0:24:51.960 --> 0:24:57.879 Take care, Take care. It Could Happen Here is a 0:24:57.880 --> 0:25:00.600 production or cool Zone Media. For more part podcast from 0:25:00.600 --> 0:25:04.359 cool Zone Media, visit our website coolzonmedia dot com, or 0:25:04.440 --> 0:25:07.560 check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 0:25:07.560 --> 0:25:10.719 wherever you listen to podcasts. You can now find sources 0:25:10.760 --> 0:25:13.399 for it could Happen Here listed directly in episode descriptions. 0:25:13.720 --> 0:25:14.560 Thanks for listening.