Speaker 1: Col Zone media.
Speaker 2: Hello everyone, unwelcome to it. I could happened here. My name
Speaker 2: is Zanna el Kherd, and I'm a researcher and analyst
Speaker 2: of Arab and Palestinian politics. Today I wanted to talk
Speaker 2: about Western Sahara and the Moroccan occupation of Western Sahara.
Speaker 2: I'm taking this opportunity because Morocco's in the news, specifically
Speaker 2: for the World Cup, but it's always a good opportunity
Speaker 2: when Morocco is in the news to bring up this
Speaker 2: issue and to talk about the ongoing occupation of this territory. Now,
Speaker 2: Western he Hero, for those who are unfamiliar, is often
Speaker 2: called Africa's last colony. It's been contested between the Saharawi
Speaker 2: indigenous people and the Moroccan government since Spain withdrew from
Speaker 2: the territory in nineteen seventy five. Now Morocco took over
Speaker 2: most of the territory and fought a war with the
Speaker 2: Polisaria Front, which is a liberation movement that represents the
Speaker 2: Saharawi people backed by other neighbors of Morocco, including Algeria,
Speaker 2: and it fought a sixteen year war for independence before
Speaker 2: there was a nineteen ninety one Sea. Now this sees
Speaker 2: fire collapsed in twenty twenty and there was a UN
Speaker 2: promised referendum on self determination that never happened. So today
Speaker 2: Morocco controls roughly eighty percent of the territory and there's
Speaker 2: still hundreds of thousands of Saharawi refugees that remain in
Speaker 2: refugee camps in Algeria. The United States accepted and recognized
Speaker 2: Morocco's sovereignty over Western Sahara in exchange for Morocco signing
Speaker 2: a peace agreement with Israel. So that happened with the
Speaker 2: Abraham Accurts. Now recently, through US led diplomacy, there was
Speaker 2: a twenty twenty five UN Security Council resolution that pushed
Speaker 2: for Moroccan autonomy rather than Saharawi independence, as the basis
Speaker 2: for resolving this conflict. So to talk more about this issue,
Speaker 2: I thought it would be a good opportunity to get
Speaker 2: the perspective of a Saharawi person and someone who is
Speaker 2: very embedded in the issue and has lived experience. So
Speaker 2: I spoke today with Mahmad sadem Urud, who is the
Speaker 2: co founder of Saharawi Voice. This is a collective of
Speaker 2: citizen journalists and filmmakers based in the Western Sahara Refugi
Speaker 2: camps in southwest Algeria, and this collective basically is a
Speaker 2: way to provide a platform for Saharawis to share their challenges,
Speaker 2: experiences and hopes with an international audience while equipping Saharawi
Speaker 2: youth with the knowledge and tools to advocate effectively for
Speaker 2: their cause. So I spoke some Hama Sadams today to
Speaker 2: get a Saharawi perspective on things. Now, there might be
Speaker 2: some listeners that don't agree with everything that was mentioned,
Speaker 2: and that's fine. The point of this kind of interview
Speaker 2: is a type of data. How do people see this
Speaker 2: issue from this perspective. So, without further ado, here is
Speaker 2: my interview with them. Hama Sadum, Hamma Sandam, thank you
Speaker 2: so much for joining us.
Speaker 1: Thank you for the invitation.
Speaker 2: So I'm going to ask a few questions about recent
Speaker 2: Saharawi politics and events, starting with the UN resolution that
Speaker 2: happened in October Resolution twenty seven ninety seven, which basically
Speaker 2: for the first time made Morocco autonomy the explicit basis
Speaker 2: for negotiations while kind of ignoring self determination for the
Speaker 2: Sahrawi people. A lot of our listeners have never heard
Speaker 2: of this resolution, but people have called it the biggest
Speaker 2: shift in the conflict in decades. So can you tell
Speaker 2: us from a Saharawi perspective what it means that the
Speaker 2: UN and international body that once promised Saharawi self determination
Speaker 2: and referendum starts treating the occupier's plan as the starting point.
Speaker 3: So the resolution itself is after they exhausted all the
Speaker 3: other pressure means the US, the European Union and through
Speaker 3: their own individual country pressure and inconditional support to the Morocco.
Speaker 3: The UN was the last resort and they want to
Speaker 3: have a stamp of legality on it. And that's why
Speaker 3: the instrument used the Yuan and and the reality and
Speaker 3: the talk now because we don't have a negotiation yet,
Speaker 3: we have talks that have been sponsored and actually administrated
Speaker 3: and by the US. The now is a sideline. And
Speaker 3: the reason is because the international law is clear and.
Speaker 1: The repeated resolution before.
Speaker 3: This, all of them they have called and demanded that
Speaker 3: the final status of the territory should be decided through
Speaker 3: a referendum, and sometimes the referendum was mused, but always
Speaker 3: there has to provide.
Speaker 1: For the self determination for the people.
Speaker 3: And even like playing with self determination for listeners and
Speaker 3: the referendum itself. It's a huge concession from the Sahara side.
Speaker 3: What in a in a just world, in ideal world,
Speaker 3: moroccould called to withdraw from western Saharah, paying the reparation
Speaker 3: for the Saharai, and those are the steps for a
Speaker 3: just solution for the Saharai past. But the Saharai, we're
Speaker 3: willing to go to the extra mile, and they made
Speaker 3: the concessions. They accepted the referendum, which is, by the way,
Speaker 3: we will intel a huge number of the settlers will
Speaker 3: be taken apart in that referendum and would not be
Speaker 3: just the Saharau. But even with that is still not
Speaker 3: sure that they will even win the support of their
Speaker 3: own settlers that they brought with them. So they had
Speaker 3: to ask the US for the help. And of course
Speaker 3: the US is doing this as a reward for local
Speaker 3: for being a sub servant stage and the watching dog
Speaker 3: of the European Union, for being willing also to go
Speaker 3: public with their relationship with the Zions State of Israel,
Speaker 3: because for us, we have been saying this for a
Speaker 3: long time.
Speaker 1: Morocco always had those relationships. It was the.
Speaker 3: Price of recognizing the moroccanity of Western Sahara was the
Speaker 3: price to go public with those relationships, and that's what
Speaker 3: they did. Eventually, Morocco is selling themselves to the Doubles
Speaker 3: to get support and recognization for their occupation of Ustern Sahara.
Speaker 3: They are accepting the Jerusalem is the capital of Israel.
Speaker 3: They are sending their money to finals the Peace Board
Speaker 3: committee that Trump made, They are sending their troops. They
Speaker 3: are willing to send them even to fight resistance as
Speaker 3: they are doing everything. They are building chemicals, drunk chemicals factories,
Speaker 3: Israeli chemicals factories in Morocco. Everything that people couldn't even
Speaker 3: the nation. Now it's a reality, and the prices to
Speaker 3: win APAC and Israel support. And they're back in turning
Speaker 3: the occupation into a THEATA company. And not just that,
Speaker 3: but to even use you. And in the international law
Speaker 3: and all the international body so impose the occupations. But
Speaker 3: for us, we know that slavery and many other stuff
Speaker 3: were legal. So even if they were to outlaw the
Speaker 3: self determination, outlaw our demand for free and independent state
Speaker 3: still will not make any difference to us. We are
Speaker 3: determined to fight for what's ours and as a Saharai
Speaker 3: x Saharai leader who passed away told the Bush because
Speaker 3: this is not the first time. Maybe this is public,
Speaker 3: but this is not the first time US try to
Speaker 3: do this.
Speaker 1: During George W.
Speaker 3: Bush first term, when the Twin Tower were hit and
Speaker 3: US wanted to just like rush to solve or to
Speaker 3: just finish all other conflicts everywhere, they wanted to resolve
Speaker 3: the occupation of us in Saharas and asking the Sahara
Speaker 3: to accept the autonomy plane of Moroccan people. And that's
Speaker 3: and they said, like when when the Sahara leader was
Speaker 3: pressed to accept that cicill, we're not accepted. You know,
Speaker 3: we are so powerful that you can dictate to people
Speaker 3: how to live, but you are not powerful enough to
Speaker 3: dictate to people how to die.
Speaker 1: So it's the same for us. Nothing changed.
Speaker 3: Morocco has enjoyed the supports for a long time from
Speaker 3: the majority of the country and especially those like called
Speaker 3: the first world country and feel world all that bs.
Speaker 3: They have always into the supports, but not on theerground.
Speaker 3: Nothing changed, of course, made our independent. It's difficult, but
Speaker 3: we make it impossible.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah. The rights of indigenous people are not determined by
Speaker 2: international law.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, And Morocco is asking for support and I
Speaker 3: want to legalize their occupation first from Western Sahara and
Speaker 3: they are asking the wrong people and they are waiting
Speaker 3: the support from that. And yeah, their teacher and their
Speaker 3: biggest sponsors are friends with all its colonism atrocity in
Speaker 3: all Africa and other places. And the US, who was
Speaker 3: a country that was built on the genocide of indigenous people.
Speaker 1: So they are they they are.
Speaker 2: In the right company.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yes, exactly, that's what we Yeah, Sahara will
Speaker 3: say like if someone gives you advice, you have.
Speaker 1: To look at their house and.
Speaker 3: If they are abiding by the advice, they are giving
Speaker 3: you a nuts. So the yeah, the market chose the
Speaker 3: right mass and the right sponsors to continue its occupation.
Speaker 3: And yeah, graduates from the occupation university.
Speaker 2: So for our listeners, I want to also kind of
Speaker 2: specify that this February, after the UN resolution, the US
Speaker 2: can be in secret talks in Madrid between Morocco, Algeria,
Speaker 2: Mauritania and the Pulsario, overseen by Trump's African advisor. Yeah,
Speaker 2: now it's being negotiated behind closed doors. How are ordinary
Speaker 2: is always especially in the camps. What is their relationship
Speaker 2: right now to these negotiations and to the Pulsaria leadership.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so that's the talk I refer to, because negotiation
Speaker 3: has to start after you established a framework for what
Speaker 3: to negotiate, and so now that hasn't happened, so they
Speaker 3: are more accurately should be described as talk, you know,
Speaker 3: early stages of talk and meetings instead of negotiation, because
Speaker 3: negotiation then when you have a framework for the things
Speaker 3: that you want to achieve and the demand of two parties.
Speaker 1: And in this case, we.
Speaker 3: Haven't even seen one photo of the tool negotiating parties
Speaker 3: and that's very obvious because it shows just how different
Speaker 3: and how how far from each other. And the US
Speaker 3: came with the misconception that they think they just like,
Speaker 3: can't rush this into solutions and be done with it.
Speaker 3: And when they saw resistance from the from the Sahara
Speaker 3: negotiation team and also for the record, also algeria hessitance
Speaker 3: to accept them posing of all those solutions, they started
Speaker 3: to reconsider. And we have many statements from a Sight Bulls,
Speaker 3: the advisor for North Africa and the Middle East or
Speaker 3: North Africa, where he's saying, this seems to be more
Speaker 3: difficult than what we early imagine. And you know starts
Speaker 3: to reconsider his positions. As as to your question the
Speaker 3: Saarah in general, the vast majority of the Saharawi consider
Speaker 3: the Policario to be a liberation movement and their representative.
Speaker 3: And even if they don't have opposed or work in
Speaker 3: a certain they consider themselves to be a Pulicario member.
Speaker 3: That doesn't mean we agree with all Policario. We don't
Speaker 3: have a different opinion about how things should be managed
Speaker 3: and how the saharawikas should be administrated and how to
Speaker 3: deal with with many things. That there is a huge
Speaker 3: and age gap between the first generation of police are
Speaker 3: that the vast majority of those are the members now
Speaker 3: and who are at the top of the leadership are
Speaker 3: people who started the police area. So I was talking
Speaker 3: about people who have been in the leadership position for
Speaker 3: fifty years. So of course there is an obvious need
Speaker 3: for them to step down and be replaced by younger generations,
Speaker 3: by people who have the ability both the physical and
Speaker 3: the mental and right judgment of the time and of
Speaker 3: the means that should be employed to accelerate the liberation
Speaker 3: of firstern Sahara. We see them, but the legisation, as
Speaker 3: you said, it's happening behind the closed door. There are
Speaker 3: no press conferences. We are dependent on the statement from
Speaker 3: there and there to try to build a bigger picture
Speaker 3: of what's happening. But the biggest takeaway and the conclusion
Speaker 3: from the three rounds that took a place so far,
Speaker 3: two in Washington and one in Madrid, there's nothing measure
Speaker 3: is happening except the fact that the US is starting
Speaker 3: to think that it's it's it's more difficult and it's
Speaker 3: going to take more time than what they initially imagine.
Speaker 3: So that's the biggest time I think that and the
Speaker 3: Morocco the autonomy plan. They had it in three pages
Speaker 3: paper that was their proposal for a solution, and France
Speaker 3: and the US asked them for a more extended version
Speaker 3: where they have to outline details, and they hadn't showed
Speaker 3: or produced anything yet. So that's I think they are
Speaker 3: closest ally and supporter and formal colonizer as Francis is
Speaker 3: working closely with them to develop that proposal.
Speaker 1: I see.
Speaker 3: That doesn't change a lot, because you know, if we
Speaker 3: wanted autonomy would have been better up with with Spain,
Speaker 3: and why would we like say say no to Spain
Speaker 3: all to accepted fifty years later to Croft monarchy and
Speaker 3: a servant and the paper to the Zion Standard trance. Yeah,
Speaker 3: our occupier is enjoying their support or nothing new in
Speaker 3: Dada San, I mean.
Speaker 2: It's it's funny that you mentioned that the United States
Speaker 2: and the Africa advisors is starting to recognize it's not
Speaker 2: as easy. I mean, you know, very surprising that the
Speaker 2: Trump imfestoration advisors thought it was going to be easier
Speaker 2: than it is, but obviously not. Yeah, I wanted to
Speaker 2: ask a question also about kind of daily life right
Speaker 2: now for Saharawis. You know, it's been fifty years after
Speaker 2: the Madrid Accords, you still have Harawis under Moroccan control
Speaker 2: in the territory. And then there's of course the refugee
Speaker 2: camps in Algeria. Now that the diplomatic horizon seems to
Speaker 2: be narrowing, what's life like for people who are fighting
Speaker 2: for Saharawi independence? So like human rights defenders, the women,
Speaker 2: the students, you know, I know they face a lot
Speaker 2: of repression in Moroccan territory, but maybe you can describe
Speaker 2: to the listeners, Yeah, what the conditions are like.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know, it's probably not something intended to do
Speaker 3: but it's not Moroccan territory. It's Western Sahara territory occupied
Speaker 3: by Moroccle my mistake.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, yeah.
Speaker 3: So the situation there is difficulty the territory. There is
Speaker 3: a media black black heide that's imposed in the territory,
Speaker 3: so non international observer or a journal still allowed to
Speaker 3: access the territory and to see the situation.
Speaker 1: On the ground.
Speaker 3: The people there are morocco Is using both the stick
Speaker 3: and the carts, so trying to buy their allusions to
Speaker 3: the occupation, try to reward those who are willing to
Speaker 3: give up their political rights and so giving them out,
Speaker 3: putting them on social work for projects and those kinds.
Speaker 3: It's not a lot, but enough to survive. And on
Speaker 3: the other hand has jail and depression and the job
Speaker 3: cutting people from their job and making their life as
Speaker 3: miserable as possible to the point either they are announced
Speaker 3: their activism or leave the territory and in some cases
Speaker 3: there are sentenced to life in prison, which has happened
Speaker 3: to many Saharawi activists who have a group called their
Speaker 3: Music Group have been in jail since two thousand and ten,
Speaker 3: and yeah there are some of them are are serving
Speaker 3: thirty years, some of them twenty, some of them life sentence,
Speaker 3: and a few of them were released recently. So the
Speaker 3: situation is very difficult and very deplorable. And what makes
Speaker 3: it even difficult there in the occupied territory are out numbered,
Speaker 3: so there are three more can settlers to each. Those
Speaker 3: are very conservative estimates, it could be more so anything
Speaker 3: that's civil disobedience strategy or tactics will be bemit successful
Speaker 3: and will not produce any results. So it's a very
Speaker 3: difficult situation. But nonetheless there are still or per standing
Speaker 3: background or still despite all the oppression and all the
Speaker 3: economic warfare that Marc is waging against them, and the
Speaker 3: even social astralization to try to.
Speaker 1: Even threaten people around you.
Speaker 3: So if you are an activist, even your father, your
Speaker 3: people around you, they will be laid from their job
Speaker 3: just as the repercussions for your activism, So they can
Speaker 3: punish you if you don't care about or own self
Speaker 3: like they punish you through the people or inners call
Speaker 3: and your global close to you.
Speaker 1: So it's very difficult.
Speaker 3: And on the other hand, also the infrastructure there are
Speaker 3: are are not are not as fancy as Morocco try
Speaker 3: to claim. There aren't a single university, and Morocco is
Speaker 3: building more of jails and even the presenter Saha, they
Speaker 3: sentenced them and they when they're serving their senses, they
Speaker 3: put them far away to punish their family, to make
Speaker 3: them pay a lot of money and travel inside Morocco
Speaker 3: to be able to visit their loved ones instead of
Speaker 3: having them close by. Artists and occupied Western Sahara. So
Speaker 3: the stuition is very difficult. But those who are choosing
Speaker 3: to stand their ground are a reader of history and
Speaker 3: they are aware of the price that has to be
Speaker 3: paid order to obtain our freedom and our independence. And
Speaker 3: the darker it gets, we know that closer that there
Speaker 3: will be a another morning that's coming behind that. So
Speaker 3: we have been here way longer before Trump administration and
Speaker 3: his advisor, and we will be here. So it's the
Speaker 3: moroc I think that they think this is their golden
Speaker 3: opportunities and that they can use everything including the international
Speaker 3: law and international institution and body like the Johan to
Speaker 3: impose their acupation and Western Sahara.
Speaker 1: But again they aremist guided. At the end of the day,
Speaker 1: they would have to put up the table.
Speaker 2: And try to find I think from a pasting in
Speaker 2: perspective like the genocide in Gaza has clarified that the
Speaker 2: international system is not functioning. So you know, they're trying
Speaker 2: to use the international system. Countries like Morocco are trying
Speaker 2: to use the international system for legitimizing control. But the
Speaker 2: international system itself needs to be restructured. And I do
Speaker 2: also want to apologize. I meant Moroccan control of the territory,
Speaker 2: so I sincerely apologize for that. Yes, I also wanted
Speaker 2: to ask because we I mean, we have listeners everywhere,
Speaker 2: but especially for listeners in the United States. You know,
Speaker 2: our government here is driving this process. What would you
Speaker 2: want listeners in the United States to take away from
Speaker 2: this conversation or to do?
Speaker 3: To be honest, I have been to the States one time,
Speaker 3: and I have met many Americans, and I am a
Speaker 3: bead the reader of their media, and I follow their
Speaker 3: their famous podcasts and TV channels and Twitter, you know, discussion,
Speaker 3: and it's very obvious that American they don't care about
Speaker 3: what's going on outside America. They care about the prices
Speaker 3: of all all of house prices and rents and the
Speaker 3: college she is And.
Speaker 1: It's okay, I think it's okay.
Speaker 3: To a degree when your country is not involved in
Speaker 3: maintaining and parting and that your own taxes are used
Speaker 3: to maintain and support and finance genocide and other military occupation. Otherwise,
Speaker 3: then you have the luxury of ignoring what's outside.
Speaker 1: But when it's not, you can just like put.
Speaker 3: Your head on the ground and imagine and just going
Speaker 3: to care about what's happening here domestically and foreign policy.
Speaker 3: What's happening there is far away. Therefore, I don't, yeah,
Speaker 3: So I would like them to inform themselves about Western Sahara,
Speaker 3: understand that they have to push their government and functionally
Speaker 3: to the Western Sahara. At least, we don't have a
Speaker 3: politician in the United States who thinks that the occupation
Speaker 3: of Western Sahara will accelerate the arrival of the Messiah,
Speaker 3: and that it's far away, it has nothing to do
Speaker 3: with the ideology, with the religion, believe anything like that.
Speaker 3: And it would be easier, supposedly, and it will be
Speaker 3: less hesitant politician to take the right stand and the
Speaker 3: right position if enough people know there and they have
Speaker 3: a responsibility to learn and to understand, and that their
Speaker 3: money and their politicians and their foreign policy are taking
Speaker 3: tools on people past, present, and the future in a.
Speaker 1: Very practical way.
Speaker 3: And they don't have the luxury to be ignorant or
Speaker 3: to be to have the apathy. They have to just
Speaker 3: not care about what's going on. They should care because
Speaker 3: their money and their political support and their country resources
Speaker 3: are used against many other people and then anything happened.
Speaker 3: We have the Americans acting like we don't know what's happened.
Speaker 3: Why the rest of the world hates you. People hate
Speaker 3: you for the million of the things your government and
Speaker 3: your silence has done and has caused everywhere else. So
Speaker 3: they have to learn they have a responsibility. They have
Speaker 3: to speak to their local politician and their their representative
Speaker 3: in Congress and Senate and ask them just to do
Speaker 3: the basic thing to follow the international law and start
Speaker 3: supporting my local militarily and politically involved in them to
Speaker 3: continue their occupations and prolonging the suffering of the Sahai.
Speaker 3: That's the very bare minimum.
Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much. On that note, I will
Speaker 2: link Sharawi Voice in the show notes. Yeah, I think
Speaker 2: that people can can learn more about the work that
Speaker 2: your collective does. And thank you for making the time.
Speaker 1: Thank you for the invitation as an honor thank you.
Speaker 2: Take care, Take care. It Could Happen Here is a
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